The Loneliness of the Long Distance Empath

Long Distance Empath

Long Distance Empaths have always existed within the Fuel Matrix of the narcissist, although they were comparatively rare since the method of communication with the Long Distance Empath would only occur through telephone, postal service and carrier pigeon. Fuel provision was intermittent and small in amount. Yes, the Long Distance Empath (“LDE”) existed but was not an integral part of the narcissist´s fuel matrix.

Then along came the internet.

Now, the LDE is far more common and most narcissists will have an LDE in the Fuel Matrix.

So, what is the Long Distance Empath?

  1. It is not somebody who is already in the Fuel Matrix who goes on holiday for two weeks, even if that is on the other side of the world.
  2. It is not somebody who is already in the Fuel Matrix who goes away with work across the country for a few months.
  3. It is somebody who lives an aeroplane journey away or 4 or more hours´ drive away.
  4. It is somebody who the narcissist met electronically such as through a dating site or app, on social media or in a chat room. This is a fundamental criterion.
  5. It is somebody where the interaction between the narcissist and victim is conducted through telephone calls, text messages, emails, social media messages, FaceTime and/or Skype and equivalents.
  6. The interaction has not involved any actual face to face meeting at any point.
  7. The interaction has continued for 6 months or more without any physical meeting taking place.

So where does the LDE sit in the fuel matrix of the narcissist?

The Non-Intimate Secondary Source

This conceivably could be a colleague, for instance individuals who work in separate and distant offices who have not met in person, it might also include family if the family members have never met (say cousins) but again it is rare, more usually with regard to the NISS it concerns a friend.

The NISS LDE is treated in a shelf style, just like any other NISS. There will be a Hoover Trigger (the NISS texts the narcissist, the NISS emails or the narcissist just happens to think of the NISS) and the HEC will usually be met because the nature of the hoover (which is how the NISS is taken off the shelf) will be electronic in nature.

The NISS LDE will usually remain painted white and in a golden period almost all of the time. This is because

  1. The intermittent nature of shelf interaction prevents the fuel becoming stale and therefore that particular devaluation trigger is avoided,
  2. The intermittent nature of shelf interaction means the NISS has less opportunity to do something which challenges the narcissist and accordingly receive a Corrective Devaluation.

The NISS LDE who is a friend to the narcissist holds a moderate to moderate high position within the fuel matrix in terms of potency and also with regard to the amount of fuel provided because as the interactions are electronic in nature, they will not involve a physically proximate interaction.

The NISS LDE is found mainly with those in the online and video game community. The narcissist will be part of a gaming group and will repeatedly interact with many NISSs and often at the same time and for hours on end. This form of interaction is often using microphones and headphones whilst gaming, so there is a voice exchange which is a moderately high amount of fuel but of sustained and prolong frequency. Those narcissists who are interested in gaming will often retreat to their bolthole when the Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”) is in devaluation and ensconced there have their fuel needs addressed by this online gaming community night after night, a steady flow of moderately potent, moderately high in amount and certainly sufficient to sustain the narcissist alongside the negative fuel provided in person by the ignored, exasperated and of course in devaluation, IPPS.


The Intimate Partner Secondary Source


The LDE IPSS will be treated like a Dirty Little Secret (“DLS”) for the most part.

Since the category is secondary source, again the appliance is treated in a shelf manner so that when there is a Hoover Trigger and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met, the narcissist will hoover by taking this type of LDE off the shelf.

The interaction with this LDE is one whereby they are isolated from the rest of the narcissists fuel matrix. Yes, the narcissist may well talk about other people in the fuel matrix but this LDE (like the in the flesh equivalent DLS) does not meet, speak to or see the friends, family and colleagues of the narcissist. They are kept in an electronic box and taken out when the narcissist wants fuel.

The LDE IPSS has been recruited into the fuel matrix for one purpose and one purpose along – sexual interaction. There will be sexting, dirty telephone calls involving mutual masturbation, the sending of nude pictures, the creation of and sending sexual videos, emails detailing what the narcissist wants to do to the LDE.

How does the interaction play out between the narcissist and the LDE IPSS?

  1. Owing to the intermittent nature of the interaction, fuel does not become stale and therefore this devaluation trigger is not applicable.
  2. It is a shelf dynamic and therefore the LDE IPSS will be taken off and placed on the shelf repeatedly. Taken off for some texting, for a session of mutual masturbation on Skype or for a dirty telephone call.
  3. If you are a LDE IPSS you will not be the only one. There will be others. The dick pic you have just received? Two other people will have received it and as you are striking a pose in the bedroom and firing back that topless picture, at least another person will be doing similar. The narcissist prefers to have several LDE IPSSs on the go because they are easy to find (there are hunting grounds all over the internet) and it is easy to hoover and thus gain fuel.
  4. The fuel that is provided is of high potency, the frequency can be sustained (for instance an hour long dirty telephone call) and the amount of the fuel ranges from low (dirty text) through to high (Skype video mutual masturbation session).
  5. The advantage for the narcissist is that when there is an in person interaction you will spot if the narcissist is looking at someone else, talking to someone else etc. The LDE IPSS rarely realises that the narcissist is texting someone else, ogling at someone else’s pictures and composing some hooklike in a chat room whilst engaging with the LDE IPSS.
  6. There may be occasional future faking where the narcissist makes noises about meeting up, this is done on two footings:-

a. Dangling the carrot of promised interaction in order to compel the LDE to send those nudes or make video etc, in essence fuel provision and the assertion of control , and/or

b. Where the narcissist perceives that the control over the LDE is slipping and therefore the promise is made or the prospect of meeting is offered in order to assert control once again.

The LDE IPSS is highly unlikely to be able to meet the narcissist in person. A Greater might be moved to meet if they happened to be in the locality of the LDE for other reasons, but the narcissist is not going to go out of their way for this appliance. This is because there will be physically proximate IPSSs that the narcissist is either engaging with or they will engage with and because the largest amount of fuel that can be provided is from an in person proximate interaction this will always trump the LDE.

The LDE IPSS will almost always be engaged with when the IPPS of the narcissist is in devaluation. They are in essence a sexy, exciting fuel provider which is key hidden away in the depths of the internet and is brought out intermittently, maybe nightly but they nearly always remain in cyberspace.

Where a narcissist engages with someone who is met electronically and who the narcissist engages with online for a period but then moves to meet with the IPSS (or NISS) then this is not an LDE. This is an interaction which began online and moved to an in person engagement and thus it is the usual pattern for IPSS or NISS.

The LDE IPSS risks Corrective Devaluation in the following circumstances :-

  1. Pestering the narcissist for contact when on the shelf. Repeatedly texting and calling the narcissist causes Hoover Triggers. Whilst it is easy to respond electronically to the LDE IPSS, the narcissist may well be having his fuel needs mets by the IPPS (along with IPSSs and/or other LDE IPSS) and therefore has no need to hoover the LDE IPSS who is texting the narcissist and seeking interaction. An electronic comfort crumb will usually be issued and then most usually a Silent Treatment will be administered by the narcissist who has felt challenged by the LDE IPSS seeking to make a demand on the narcissist when it is not wanted, so control is assert by ignoring the LDE IPSS.
  2. Issuing threats to the narcissist to make mention of their activity somewhere online. The LDE IPSS usually does not know where the narcissist lives (or has been given incorrect information) and therefore any attempt at reprisal for mistreatment will be directed online. Issuing such threats against the narcissist will result in a Corrective Devaluation and possibly even Disengagement Devaluation.
  3. Failing to do what the narcissist wants. If the narcissist wants nudes and they are not provided, there will be a Corrective Devaluation which is often triangulation with the IPPS or an IPSS (or another lDE IPSS). The failure to provide the nudes (which are fuel) will wound (a failure to respond) or challenge fuel (replying but refusing to provide them).
  4. Since the entirety of the interaction with the LDE IPSS is electronic the Narcissist´s Social Media Laws apply and chief amongst them is that the LDE IPSS is expected to respond in an instant. Failure to do so will wound the narcissist and invite a Corrective Devaluation.

The LDE is someone (as stated above) who is met online and is kept there. They will be one of at least two LDE IPSSs and there, as always, to provide The Prime Aims but to do so primarily through a sexual online interaction which will lead nowhere.

No matter how much they want to be with the narcissist, no matter how much they express their love and desire for the narcissist, theirs is a lonely existence as they sit remote waiting for that electronic arm to reach across the ocean for them.

The Intimate Partner Primary Source

It is highly unusual for the LDE to be the IPPS because the amount of fuel needed from the IPPS is such that the narcissist must have it as Proximate Fuel. Accordingly, even if you spend a lot of time interacting with the narcissist online and through the telephone (but you never meet), even if the narcissist calls you his girlfriend or her boyfriend, you will not be the IPPS.

There may however be an instance whereby you can be the LDE and the IPPS, albeit it is very rare. The description below fits a situation involving an LDE IPPS.

The Narcissist is a  Mid-Range Elite. He lives alone. He has family in the city where he lives who he sees intermittently and various friends and colleagues who he sees quite often and therefore has a large bank of NISSs to draw on. He however interacts with one source every single day. He is in Europe and she is in the Middle East. They speak on the telephone frequently through the day. They Skype often and for hours at a time, watching the same films although in different continents, effectively going on virtual dates. They have never met. They see one another through Skype and FaceTime, they swap nude pictures, they engage in mutual masturbation, they even have Skype still going in the background when they fall asleep, one watching the other sleep often owing to the difference in time zones. They have never touched one another, never smelt one another, never felt skin on skin, yet spend hours with one another through the power of technology.

This is an LDE IPPS. The narcissist will frequently future fake about meeting in order to keep this person in place. The narcissist will also provide a golden period to this LDE IPPS and will not be cheating on the LDE IPPS with anybody else, but eventually it will happen.

With the in person IPPS, the overwhelming reason why devaluation always occurs is based on the in person IPPS´fuel becoming stale. This is less likely with the LDE IPPS, instead what will cause the devaluation (and just like the in person IPPS, the LDE IPPS will be devalued) is the fact the fuel provision will not be frequent or large enough because of the LDE factor.

The narcissist may end up meeting the LDE eventually but again this is rare. There is a reason why this person has been kept the LDE IPPS and it is because it suits the narcissist because he gains what he needs through the Prime Aims and does so whilst it is easy to exert this control. He does not need to do any chores, he does not need to put his arm around the victim to comfort him or her during the seduction period, he does not have to walk the dog for the LDE IPPS.

The LDE IPPS, just like the LDE IPSS is destined to remain so near through technology yet so far away owing to the lack of physical proximity and thus what they believed to be genuine and fulfilling is only going to cause them to become more and more lonely.

The Long Distance Empath will always be lonely.


172 thoughts on “The Loneliness of the Long Distance Empath

  1. Elenina says:

    Hello HG,
    I’m just figuring out that I’m in a relationship with a narc.
    That it was a very unusual relationship I have been aware since the beginning, but did not think about something pathological.

    We met in 2015, me coming out from a difficult divorce, and started our relationship. Never met someone so interesting and with so much energy, he swept me off my feet.
    He tought me kayaking and we enjoyed kayaking holidays together during summer. It was a dream come true. He introduced me to his family (who lives in the North of Italy while we lived in Rome). It was never a proper relationship, he never let me know he was exclusive whereas I always tell him he is the only one. I’ve just been hoping that he would not get bored with me, and putting up with all the rest. I understand now that I might have been his facade, I am a very presentable “wife-like” partner. Going on holiday together and having weekend and fun together was ok with me, other men are so dull.

    2 years ago he was sent to work in the North of Italy where he comes from, 800 km from Rome.
    He now lives in his home town, in his fathers’ house, with his father (99 y.o.!) with whom he has a terrible relationship with a lot of conflict, he says he hates him.
    Our relationship continues, we have contact on daily basis, we text, call, videcall, dirty call, erotic photos. We meet once every 1-2 months (always me reaching him in his pied-a-terre, he is not inviting me over to his house) and the summer holidays together. Lately he has had some money problems due to restructuring of the house, and I lent him money to buy what I see as unnecessary items, but he doesn’t seem to be able to return my money.

    I have reasons to suspect he has met someone nearby, as his behaviour in the last four months has changed. Days of silence, he has become very strict with the dates of our meeting, does not reply to texts and calls as he did before and during weekends.

    From your work I understand he is a middle mid range type B.

    I think I was an IPSS before he moved, but what am I now? According to your description I am not a LDE because we had an in-person relationship before turning to a long distance one.

    Thank you

  2. Roisin says:

    This really made me laugh with recognition. Thanks for the article and to all who commented. This and the Empathic Supernova stuff is great. I think mine is a mid-range narc but he turned up to hoover me twice in the past (before I knew what he was – one time was a year after our first encounter) so on the off chance he ‘coincidentally’ reappears again I’ll be ready 😀

  3. john smith says:

    HG you are a FUCKING GOD your explanation on the LDE IPSS or DLS is exactly the dynamic my wife had me in for about 9 months until I brought down the whole fucking house of cards but I digress you have the BEST information on everything NPD thank you for your contribution

  4. DoneDone38 says:

    Hi HG
    Thank you for this article as well. I mind is a fractured and shattered right now as I just finished reading the Dirty Empath article then moved to this one. Currently in week 3 of NC, GOSO. My 4 yr old’s mind is shattered, and trying to currently rebuild her after her mental, emotional and physical abuse. Hence we got out. My 18 month old has rebounded beautifully. She has advanced in her social skills now.

    After reading those 2 articles, I went from believing that the last 3/4 relationships were narcs, to now knowing every one of them was, still not totally convinced on the long distance one but I probably was the LDE IPSS since we would meet in person about every 6 months. What sparked me to think that is a few months ago i got an email hoover from him, even though it had been years since our last email. Then a few short exchanges, me reassuring him he’s a great person…poof, nothing.

    So in the middle of a divorce with a MMRN and 1 genetic child is his. I have been able to logically fight him and get with 3 steps of him (still seems like he’s 5 steps ahead). Currently also child abuse investigation open on him. I know it’s my ET and the type of empath I am but damn, I want him to pay for that, for once have to have accountability.
    As much as I love reading these articles, it sets off my “Narc Meter” now. I get the flutters/sick to my stomach, the skin on my back crawls and my left arm tingles. First time, I thought I was having a heart attack, but no. Your articles actually helped develop that and now when it gets set off, i’m like oh what is my narc up to now and sure enough, next day lawyer has developments

  5. Why me? says:


    The narcissist finally left me alone. 7 months no contact. Blocked him. I know he hasn’t at least texted me because I would have got a text from my phone service about the blocked party that is unable to contact me. I doubt that he tried to call.

    Do you know why after a corrective devaluation, I told him to not contact me again and he said he won’t and he actually hasn’t?

    I wish it was that easy 3 years ago! I wonder what did the trick to get rid of a narcissist.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      More information is needed to provide an accurate answer as I have explained several times to you before. You should use this you won’t, but you need to if you require an accurate answer.

      1. Why me? says:

        That’s because if I don’t find the answer in the article, then sometimes I think that the answer might be short and simple and I don’t always know that it requires more information for a consult. From now on, I’ll just think if any question is too personal, then a consult is needed for the answer. As for consultations, I can’t always afford to do one either, but I have had consults with you 🙂 Thank you for referring the articles/audio files to me in my other comment posts. I have purchased some other audio files in the past and if I really need to know the answers, I will definitely purchase them when I can, too. Thank you for letting me know, HG. My apologies for any annoyance.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No annoyance WM, I endeavour to answer as much as possible, but certain questions, especially those about your personal situation should be addressed through consultation in order to provide you with the most accurate responses and thus provide you with the maximum level of assistance possible.

          1. Why me? says:

            I purchased the “why am I behaving like the narcissist” audio file. It did answer a question I had about that. Ty for referring 🙂

  6. A Victor says:

    We only stay lonely if we accept being online only. If not, we can leave and find someone in our proximity, a real, live person and hopefully not a narcissist.

    That said, in my current situation, I thought the online variety of relationship would be easiest. Having gone through what I have with the narc, I will only ever have one again if there are verifications and Zoom calls very early on. This does not preclude the person being a narcissist, of course, but, at least I will be able to put the illusion out of my mind to a greater degree. And, seeing mannerisms and such does do a lot toward making or breaking anything progressing.

    Thank you for this article.

  7. Why me? says:


    Isn’t the LDE IPSS really a LDE DLS then? How would it be different for an actual LDE DLS then? What’s the difference between the LDE IPSS and LDE DLS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The LDE IPSS may well know more about the world of the narcissist and be referred to by the narcissist within his world, unlike the LDE DLS.

      1. Why me? says:

        1. Okay, HG. So, the LDE DLS wouldn’t be on the narcissist’s facebook page then? And they wouldn’t know what the narcissist is doing in their lives, then? Is this all correct?

        2. If the LDE IPSS isn’t a LDE DLS, then how does the narcissist treat the LDE IPSS like the in person DLS?

  8. Why? says:


    1. If the LDE IPSS is contacted for sexual interaction, then according to the madonna-whore complex, doesn’t that mean the LDE IPSS is viewed as a whore instead of a Madonna to the narcissist?

    2. What are the traits of the whore to a narcissist?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See Sex and the Narcissist and arrange an email consultation.

    2. alexissmith2016 says:

      It’s a great read Why. It is still very much my favourte book of HG’s. Never before have I felt so enlightened.

      It really helps you understand how the N views sex. One thing which particularly stuck in my mind was that Ns view us all as either Madonna (usually someone who has gone stale – if I recall correctly) but then views most of us as whores. But with a distinct difference to anything you’ve read elsewhere, because we are either good whores or bad whores. God, I know it shouldn’t really, but this makes me laugh so much.

      And when i’m interacting with an N and I’m not behaving how he wants me to I know I’m viewed as a whore (even though nothing sexual may have ever happened), but more specifically a bad whore. Something in this just appeals to my clearly slightly warped sense of humour.

      I’m Alexis and I’m a bad whore!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you AS2016.

  9. Why? says:

    Or could it be that by not meeting the LDE IPSS in person and knowing that it upsets her, getting that upset reaction from her is enough fuel for him by doing just that and doesn’t have a need to meet in person for proximate fuel from her?

  10. Why? says:


    – What doesn’t make sense to me is that if the largest fuel is proximate fuel, then why wouldn’t the mid range narcissist meet the LDE IPSS in person and just keep them in that electronic box?

    – You wrote that the greater might if he was in the area for other reasons. So, why would the greater might but the midrange is less inclined to if he was in the area? Is it because the greater has more energy? But the midrange would get more energy by getting his proximate fuel needs met from the LDE IPSS in person.

    If he did meet, then he would get more, better fuel. I don’t get it and even looking at it from the narcissistic perspective a.k.a. fuel needs, it still doesn’t make sense to me. If fuel is the most important thing that narcissists want, then they would get more proximate fuel by meeting in person even if there are other proximate appliances available already. If he wasn’t going to get fuel by meeting the LDE IPSS in person, then sure, it makes sense that he wouldn’t bother to meet. But he would get proximate fuel. So, i don’t get it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because he is gaining Proximate Fuel from others alongside this and therefore this means there is no pressing need to meet the LDE IPSS (keep in mind the fact they are LDE also means there are logistical issues involved also). The narcissist wants the best outcome, soonest and with the most efficient outlay.

      1. Why? says:


        So, does the most efficient outlay mean the cheapest/ less to spend?

        And also is with the least amount of energy for the narcissist to exert included when seeing proximate sources instead of not meeting a LDE IPSS in person?

        Yeah, I know that the narcissist gets proximate fuel from others but I thought that the narcissist would anyway because more is better and meeting the LDE in person might possibly have more fuel to gain. But I see that there are factors involved for a narcissist to consider and yes, even a normal person to consider as well.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It depends on the extent of the resources of the narcissist.

          1. Why? says:

            Oh ok. That makes sense. Thanks, HG!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

  11. Sarah says:


    I read that it is rare that the narcissist meets the LDE IPSS in person but it can happen. So, what would even motivate the narcissist to meet the LDE IPSS in person?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I think you are asking, how do I make the narcissist meet me. This is ET. Obey the first golden rule of freedom.

  12. Why me? says:


    1. During the golden period, if a LDE IPSS tells a LMRN narcissist that she thinks he is a narcissist, does the narcissist feel intimated by her and feels too intimidated to meet the IPSS in person, if he happens to travel/visit in the same state she lives in for other reasons?

    2. In a general romantic context, (I assume subconsciously) would a LMRN narcissist feel intimidated by a victim’s awareness and knowledge and look elsewhere for a new IPPS who has stronger special traits and is not aware of his narcissism?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. It is Challenge Fuel and may derail the golden period.

      2. This may be a disengagement trigger, see the 5 Disengagement Triggers.

  13. Why me? says:


    What are some reasons why a LMRN narcissist would not see the long distance empath if he visited the state that she lived in?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I recommend you utilise this

  14. B says:

    Okay but what If he didn’t have a in person IPPS or a in person IPSS and the LDE IPSS empath had all or most of the class traits, then would she likely be promoted to LDE IPPS or more likely he would he keep her as IPSS and keep looking where he lives for a IPPS to embed?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He would more likely seek a proximate IPPS.

  15. B says:


    What if the LDE IPSS empath and victim midrange narcissist got to know each other and were talking about other things other than sex over the phone and she had all of the class traits and genetic traits and some special traits that the particular narcissist requires, would he meet her in person (although both live in different states) or promote her to LDE IPPS? If not, then what would he do?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It would depend on what else is happening in his fuel matrix in terms of how it is constituted and how under control those individuals are. I need more information from you and in the circumstances you are best served organising. a consultation so I may provide you with an accurate response.

  16. Why me? says:


    Just out of curiosity, how could a victim midrange narcissist pick the in person IPSS over the LDE shelf IPSS when he was talking to the LDE shelf IPSS for 3 years?

    Why wouldn’t a victim midrange narcissist care about the length of time and wasting it because he invested time and energy, too?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Fulfilment of the Prime Aims.
      2. It is not wasted time from the perspective of the narcissist. You are imposing your world view and thinking the narcissist views the situation as you do, he does not.

      1. Why me? says:

        I know that it’s not wasted time from the narcissist perspective.

        I meant that why isn’t it wasted time from his perspective? My perspective is that we talked for 3 years and I am trying to understand what the point of it was then. Because after 3 years, it led nowhere – nothing came of it. So, what was the point?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’re still imposing your world view.

          1. Why me? says:

            Right. But why doesn’t the narcissist think that it was wasted time? Is it because he still got what he needed when he needed it, but in person is better regardless of the length of time of talking, sharing, etc,? It seems to be more about needs than values.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            He obtained what he required. You do not see it because you do not share that perspective, but he obtained what was necessary for him and therefore it is not a waste of time.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Why me?
          You assume that he wanted it to go somewhere because that is how you think. Narcissists think very differently to us. If you keep reading HG’s work you will see the difference explained. He got what he needed (fuel) from you in your actions and words for the period of time that he wanted them. He had no concern for your needs or plans for it to “go anywhere”. He was also likely getting what you provided from others as well. It takes very little effort to juggle many with words. Especially long distance or online. Again, narcissists do not use the same logic or think like we do. That’s what makes them narcissists.
          I’m sorry, but the truth is – you were conned into thinking it was ever going anywhere. Keep reading and consider having a consultation so HG can explain what was actually happening so that this never happens to you again.

          1. Kim e says:

            Thanks for reminding me why I am NC. My ET has been bugging me to unblock

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e
            I was going to say DON’T YOU DARE! but then realized that’s the wrong approach as you’d do it just to show me. So instead, I will say with all sincerity – please don’t. It’s like leaving your doors unlocked and wide open during The Purge lol.

          3. Kim e says:

            You were wrong about me doing it just to show you. I would do it if I wanted to no matter who told me not to…..LOL
            I read here a little bit and every once in awhile, a comment hits my ET back to my LT. Yours did that for me.
            Have a great holiday season!!!!!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e
            I’ll take being wrong all day long. Whatever keeps you with your LT is good by me. Same to you over the holidays, but if you (or anyone else) feels like talking to someone, many of us will still be here subject to the schedule of our moderating social butterfly (who I think we can all agree also deserves a break). Sometimes just writing it out can help LT take hold. Take care Kim.

          5. Kim e says:

            Just wanted to say…ok brag… short as it seems today is my 12 week NC. This is way harder than I thought but I am hanging in. So far only 1 unknown call on my work phone. It messed me up for a couple days, not gonna lie. But I never fell out of NC.
            Long way to go………….But I am proud of me today!!!!

          6. Pati says:

            I am very proud of you too Kim e!

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e
            You should be proud! 12 weeks IS a long time when the temptation to break it is sometimes minute to minute. We’re all proud of you.

            Do a hair toss, check your nails, baby how you feelin?……

          8. Violetta says:

            Future Faking. They are experts at it.

          9. A383 says:

            ‘He got what he needed (fuel) from you in your actions and words for the period of time that he wanted them. He had no concern for your needs or plans for it to “go anywhere”.’


            This comment stopped me in my tracks.

            Very well put.


          10. Notme! says:

            Well done Kim e
            12 weeks whoop whoop! I find posts like this strengthening and inspiring. Stay strong x

          11. Why me? says:

            Thank you, NarcAngel.

            Yeah. I know. Well, that was just pathetic. I can’t see him committing long term with anybody because he also can’t even live in the same apartment for long, either. He said that long distance was easier for him because he doesn’t like “closeness”. What a pathetic loser. But then he starts dating somebody where he lives. So, what? she doesn’t like closeness/intimacy, either? Yeah, what a great relationship lol. Or he didn’t tell her that and she will eventually find out and be miserable.

          12. Why me? says:

            I am just mad about the wasted 3 years. I helped him with whatever he needed and whenever he needed it. And he has no appreciation for it and is ungrateful. What a bastard! I really hope this relationship with this person fails and I hope in the long run, he ends up alone because he does NOT deserve to be with anybody. Even as a narcissist he is pathetic. I knew other narcissists and they weren’t as pathetic as this one was. Stupid victim narcissist.

  17. Melanie says:


    You wrote: “the LDE IPSS is expected to respond in an instant. Failure to do so will wound the narcissist and invite a Corrective Devaluation.”

    1. So, if she blocks the narcissist for the first time, what types of corrective devaluations should be expected from the victim lower or middle midrange narcissist if he has a in person IPSS candidate in his fuel matrix? Silent treatment? Disengagement?

    2. Once passed the seduction stage, is there always a corrective devaluation given if she blocks him?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Corrective Devaluation does not lead to disengagement as a sanction. The response would likely be smearing, insult (if it can get through), triangulation and silent treatment.
      2. Not necessarily, she may block and be on the shelf so the narcissist does not notice.

  18. Anna says:

    Hi HG,

    The narcissist doesn’t seem to care that the shelf LDE IPSS blocked him – he hasn’t made further attempts through other avenues of communication. He is dating a in person IPSS (shelf or candidate). Just out of curiosity, why doesn’t he seem to care that he has been blocked? Is it because he is dating somebody in person or that he was wounded by the blocking?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I require more information Anna to provide an accurate answer and recommend you organise a consultation.

  19. Christine says:


    1. Does the narcissist block /disengage the shelf LDE IPSS if he realizes that she blocked him?

    2. If he is dating somebody and says that it is going well, why did he hoover the LDE Shelf IPSS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Potentially, yes.

      2. Because there was a Hoover Trigger and the Hoover Execution Criteria were met. In essence, he is keeping his options open and is exerting control over the LDE Shelf IPSS.

      1. Christine says:

        Isn’t it rare that the narcissist hoovers the shelf IPSS when he has a new IPPS? and if so, then why would he want to keep his options open? I thought that the hoover bar is higher so he wouldn’t hoover the shelf IPSS.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. Only when the IPPS is in the golden period.
          2. You described the narcissist as dating someone, she is not the IPPS if there is dating going on. The person being dated will be a Shelf IPSS or a Candidate IPSS meaning that other options will remain open.

          1. Christine says:

            I knew it. I thought that she can’t be the IPPS because he tried to contact me when I blocked him. I received a text that said “recipient has insufficient funds to receive message” and this happens when the person I block texts me. He is the only one who I have blocked and I assume he tried to hoover. So, I was just curious as to why he was even hoovering me if she is his IPPS. Then, I thought that he was even more crazy – possibly borderline lol. But ok. Yeah, it makes sense. Well, if he blocked me back, then he blocked me. I don’t care anymore. I was just curious and a little confused because I thought that I was doing pretty well with my knowledge of narcissists and then that happened.

            Thanks, HG!

  20. L says:


    1. What happened here – Was she the IPSS candidate for the past 2 months and that he just decided to promote the IPSS candidate to IPPS? And have I been demoted to SS?

    Victim LMRN or MMRN tells shelf IPSS LDE that he will be more distant and focusing on the woman he has been dating for the past 2 months because it is going really well and he can’t have feelings for me and her at the same time because it’s too confusing for him. And after time a part, he and I can come back to talking again as friends. But for now, to think of this as splitting up and getting closure.

    2. Then, does this mean I will not hear from him for 2 months or longer and that i am free? Or will the victim lmrn or mmrn narc contact me during the golden period with the new IPPS if he needs to as a “friend” like he said?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello L, this is a matter for consultation, please see Rule 14.

  21. L says:

    Yeah, my narc was a victim midrange narcissist. He didn’t want to meet in person, didn’t want to date, and would avoid mutual masturbation, but would flirt or take out his dick and stroke it over video chatting with me. So, what the hell was the point of talking to each other then? Werdo! hahahaha. Now, he says that he is dating somebody from where he lives, who he met online, and then met her in person. I just went no contact. Pointless and very odd. I just keep thinking, “what the hell was all of that?” – crazy lol

    It was not like this at all with the elite narcissist before him. It’s a shame that the elite was a narcissist, but the elite is the best one lol

  22. L says:


    What would a victim lower midrange or middle midrange narcissist do if I block him? If he does find some way to contact the LDE IPSS, would the hoover be malign? Would he track me down and come after me? Would he try to destroy my life?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I require more information from you to understand the applicable factors so I can provide you with an accurate response, L. Please arrange a consultation to enable me to do this.

      1. L says:

        Ok. Thank you, HG.

  23. Wandering says:

    Is feel that this fits my situation very well, although I met my mid-range narcissist twice in person because we live close in the same continent. Is it only an elite narcissist who will engage with an LDE Empath? Or could a cerebral narcissist also do this?

  24. N says:

    Hi HG,

    I am a shelf IPSS and we met online through an online class and have been talking for 2 years now. There was not much sexual intimacy actually. It only escalated a couple of months ago on video chat. For over a year, I didn’t want to video chat with him so we just talked on the phone and texting. We are attracted to each other and have shared things about ourselves. It has felt like a romantic relationship – more than just sexual interaction. But yet he said he wanted friends with benefits.

    He is the victim midrange narcissist and he just issued a corrective devaluation to me when I texted him “I was hoping we would chat … but … you’re brushing me off. Whatever.” And he sent many texts. I texted back and in one of the texts I wrote that he was being a jerk and he didn’t even realize it. Then he called. We talked. He wasn’t yelling at me and I wasn’t yelling at him. I felt shocked and hurt from all of those texts, actually. Then he said that he felt like he was in a relationship and that he is going to start dating where he lives and that I should do the same where I live. He said that my interaction with him is “blurry” – my being more than a friend but not a girlfriend. Then he said that he did love my voice so he didn’t know. He sounds confused. I don’t want to keep going through this but I would like to get closure and understand why he didn’t want to be in a relationship with me.


    1. Why did he say that he felt like we were in a relationship (romantic relationship) and told me that he is going to start dating again?

    2. And why did he then mention that I should start dating and that he would be more busy when he is dating?

    I feel like it is about control and maybe a part of the corrective devaluation. I’m not sure.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. In his mind you are in a relationship because he owns you. Unconsciously this statement was made to cause you to feel guilty so you would respond in a way which gave him fuel and control. He stated he was going to start dating to provoke you.
      2. To suggest to you that he is finished with you (he is not) and to Threaten Loss with his statement of being more busy when he is dating, meaning you will not get the same level of time and attention, thus intending to make you respond by giving him control and fuel.

      If you wish to understand the dynamic in greater detail I recommend that you organise an email or audio consultation so I may receive more information.

      1. N says:

        Wow!! Okay, thank you, HG!

  25. Bekah B says:

    Thank you for this article, HG.. It was definitely highly anticipated for me since my ex engaged in a long distance relationship during my pregnancy and consequently caused our permanent disengagement..

    I know you mention a LDE as an IPPS to a narcissist is rare, but I strongly speculate this is the dynamic my ex engaged in with his source that lives 4+ hours away from our home state.. I don’t know exactly how they met, but I believe it was in person in October of last year, when she may have traveled to our state (since she originally grew up here).. From then, I believe they kept in constant contact and eventually worked themselves up to the point of meeting each other again, this time in her state of Virginia.. I believe the longest amount of consecutive time they spent physically proximate together at her home was 2 weeks.. That was in January.. And ever since then, my ex traveled to Virginia by train every month to see her, but only ever for a maximum of 6 consecutive days.. When they weren’t physically together, I strongly speculate they interacted daily through phone calls, text messages, and FaceTime.. I believe my ex did try to keep me in his fuel matrix in the beginning of my pregnancy (which was also the beginning of his LD relationship), but I purposefully kept myself unavailable to his menial contact attempts, so therefore he worked harder to embed his source in Virginia as IPPS.. And I’m convinced that my ex had to acquire another source here in our home town and engaged with her intermittently when he wasn’t in Virginia or on training assignments in the Army, during my entire pregnancy..

    The main reason I believe the girl in Virginia is IPPS is because he went out of his way to see her consistently.. Having no job or form of his own transportation, that was sort of a big deal for him that I immediately recognized and refused to dismiss.. That’s when I knew and kinda had to accept it was truly over for us.. He completely disregarded our then 2 year old daughter, and the facts that I was pregnant and only living on the opposite side of town, about 8 miles away, for 9 entire months, just to pursue this girl that lives over 400 miles away..

    Now: he is miles away from everyone, currently stationed at a military base in Texas preparing to be shipped out to the Middle East in the next month or so.. He will be gone for 9 months, give or take.. From my perspective, I don’t believe his interaction with the girl in Virginia will change much at all: they already had distance between them and their primary medium of communication was electronic.. It’s clear she is idealized by him like no other before for these reasons and then some; and she probably idealizes him just much now that he is in his role of Army soldier deployed in foreign, hazardous territory soon.. She’ll probably go out of her way more than she most likely was already doing to be available to him, accomodating for the time zone differences.. I already know what it is like because I did this for my ex back when we were only friends and he was stationed in the Middle East for the first time in 2013..

    My emotional thinking has me envying the elongated golden period and significantly reduced triggers of devaluation, due to their long distance dynamic.. Sometimes I think this is the one that is really gonna last for him due to these reasons, not to mention everything else that is admirable about the girl..

    I just hate this..

  26. Caroline R says:

    A thoughtful, thorough and eagerly anticipated article from you. Thank you!
    It could be subtitled ‘The Empath In a Dead-end Relationship’
    or ‘The LD Empath Unable To Verify Anything About The Person She’s ‘Dating’ ‘.

    You captured the loneliness and utter lack of any leverage in the relationship that the Empath has.

    The Love Fraud has the Empath checked into Heartbreak Hotel, waiting…..alone…… getting nothing of value…..wasting time.

    The Long-Distance Empath as Battery Hen.
    Adding Skype for sexual favours just televises the lack of respect and dignity.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  27. Patrick Bateman says:

    HG, i enjoyed reading your latest blog entries they resonated with me to considerable degree and this one in particular..
    I met the mid range online through a video game, she lives on the other side of the globe. Her ipps at the time was in devaluation heading towards discard.
    The golden period was Hollywood-esc, (i could imagine partially plagiarize in relation to the poetry and future faking)
    I eventually became the ipps she left him. Then soon after due to lack of proximity she faded off and other contributing factors.
    I could go on and on about details and events (might make some good reading material) but i went no contact after several months i willingly went no contact suicide (enter dramatic music)

    At this point i reengaged, the hoover trigger and hec were met, she had a veiled ipps she did not hide from me (i would have found out any way).
    I booked my flight she stated she wanted me more than the current partner. One week before flying out she went social media public with her ipps i was a little surprised by that action how ever typically narcissistic ( and yes i still flew out a week after)

    During my trip to her country i met with her on several occasions the engagements were off intimate nature. She did perhaps see the chance of hoovering a past source and did result in putting the ipps into very brief devaluation due to my fuel and character traits ect (i out shine the ipps in every way)

    However to sum up she is lazy and her narcissism decided she would rather live in her country (poorly) then risk relocating with me.

    I still have contact with her to date and it is usually prevalent after she has arguments or “fights” with her current ipps, where perhaps my fueling comes in handy.

    I like to play games and ride my ego by playing with the notion of influencing the devaluation triggers for her ipps by either remaining a ipss or just going no contact which ever will put a deeper strain on her current relationship.

    However HG will call this emotional thinking and suggest i goso, but where is the fun in that… Come on HG, show us your higher powers of perception and help me out.

    P. S
    No body goes to Dorsia any more…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If you wish to discuss this in greater detail it is best addressed through consultation PB.

      PS I like to dissect girls. Did you know I’m utterly insane ?

      1. Patrick Bateman says:

        I don’t think there is a way for me to influence a devaluation trigger or put strain on their relationship…

        I have to return some video tapes

        1. Bibi says:

          Hahahaha. This confession has meant nothing.

          1. Shelf Fuel says:

            Would you like to hear our specials today?


      2. Pati says:

        I remember dissecting a frog in highschool science class it was literally disgustng 🤢

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi patrick…it sounds like youre very much infatuated with this narcissist if you want to mess around and influence her present relationship. Do you think you could be in denial thinking its just playing a game? It looks like youre still not over her. Youre remaining in the toxic situation by trying to use the same narc tactics to change the dynamics with her ipps. Just my observation.

      1. Patrick Bateman says:

        Hi Chi,
        It became my obsession, it is a game of sorts.. My contact with her is intermittent however i don’t like being available at her beck and call.. It still eludes me to a certain degree on how much i can influence there dynamic for my gain.. Mostly due to proximity

  28. Dearest HG: I hope you publish a book as soon as possible utilizing the LDE, or first perhaps a broader Title that grabs the attention of readers, and then you explain this phenomenon of the gaining momentum of this newish type of relationship in the modern age. This may be an epidemic. The way you outline it all and its breadth and depth is groundbreaking in its expansiveness. It is shocking. How many people are now caught up in all this without really being aware of it??? Across the entire spectrum. I know I live on the planet earth and I have much experience on the planet earth, but your insight still gives me the oddest feeling of peeking into the windows of my own home to see what is really going on inside.

  29. pcsands says:

    true words….so lonely. the silent treatments only triggered my abandonment issues….and away we went on the cycle again. i would be so glad to see him when he finally graced me with his presence and i somehow apologized to him for upsetting him. lol..i know it made sense then. yes…i have stayed alone for 2 years so as to not get another. yet…i felt more alone when i was with him. i am not lonely now. i am getting to the point of meh when i think of “them”. I had a couple of them.

  30. Chihuahuamum says:

    This is so accurate. Ive felt this way with my narc bc it has been part LD in the fact we arent always able to be with each other and in a roundabout way that has worked out better bc its that distance that helps keep things fresh. The more youre around a narcissist especially physically the more you become stale to them and the more their npd comes out. Being in a LD situation allows the facade to stay instact.
    In my situation we are proximate but we are electronic as well when we cant be together. I do think a secondary source can remain the longest with a narcissist and a LD one especially as long as the empath is ok being used on and off which most arent. It can be very lonely and upsetting especially when youre ignored or they disappear.
    My last narc was proximate when he lived here but long distance when he moved back to liverpool. When he became LD he would disappear for a week or so and it caused me a lot of stress. It made it no longer worth while. I met the narc im with now and have zero interest in ever talking to the other narc. He played the disappearing card which is a deal breaker for me. I am certain he has a multitude of secondaries and electronic fuelers. He was quite the womanizer looking back. He is definitely a midranger and was always boohooing about how bad the last woman treated him. I lost so much respect for him. Infatuation was what i had but it turned sour and now that i know about npd i shake my head i ever wasted time with him. I wish him well but everytime i get an email from him it turns my stomach literally. I think bc of how he made me feel when we were LD. I had such anxiety and sadness. My narc has never done that and has always been a constant. Sadly there has been abuse but more covert in nature but he has never disappeared even while in LD mode.

  31. BonnieLou says:

    Oh god! Guilty as charged! 😫 Great reading as always. Many thanks HG!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome

  32. FoolMe1Time says:

    This could not have come out at a better time. How much lower can one imperfect soul descend?

    1. Shelf Fuel says:

      Fool Me…..not sure if that was a riddle akin to “what is the sound of one hand clapping” but I am going to answer and say….52. The answer is 52. (Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy reference of when things make no sense….the answer is 52. Always 52.)

      I really need to get under someone else right now to forget Piano Boy. Good grief.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I think you mean 42!

        1. Shelf Fuel says:

          Ahhh whoops! Duh. You are right! My mistake. I wish we could edit the comments. But yes 42, that is the answer.

        2. BonnieLou says:

          😂😂😂OMG! HG you are my no.1 choice of people I could invite to a fantasy Supper then my Commercial Director who is verging on a Greater of your brethren 😊

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Most kind.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Bonnie. I want to be there! I want to see HG live in action with another `contending ` Narcissist or 2 in a party. I am sure it would be a spellbinding dinner party.

      2. HG Tudor says:

        If you try to get under someone else now you’ll end up with another narcissist

        1. Shelf Fuel says:

          Well Woke AF did give me some advice (that of which I know she was being facetious) where she said to find another MR and to shelve Piano Boy and to time it with his shelving so that everything would be all golden, all the time. Sigh.

          HG, you should start some kind of service where for a nominal fee you can fly to our locations and we can use you to make our narcs jealous or enact some major wounding revenge.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No because that’s continuing to engage with narcissist and contravenes GOSO.

          2. Shelf Fuel says:

            But I would love to see you wreck Piano Boy. Chew him up and spit him out. I know how much you hate mid-rangers.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Your Emotional Thinking wants to see that, but it would not be in your best interest. It is a form of engagement.


          4. Shelf Fuel says:

            Even if YOU are the one who engages? I/We’d (if anyone else wants such a narc revenge service) be hiring YOU to engage for us and shake shit up.

            I feel like I am smacking my head against a wall here but I still felt like clarifying.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            He engages because you’re letting him. Impose no contact. He can still text you, you are not imposing no contact. Do it.

          6. Bibi says:

            Shelf (I have been there too):

            The whole idea of using HG to ‘make him jealous’ still involves you hanging on Piano Boy’s emotion. As cliche as it sounds, you really have to find that validation from within. Forget him. He is married. He is not your problem. Be thankful for that. You just have to let him go. Let him float in the ether into nothingness. There are so many better people out there than this guy. Not just for dating but friends and those who can help you grow.

            I think part of the reason you are so tied to him is because so much of this relationship/infatuation resides in your mind. I have had the same thing. But please don’t let your years pass to where you look back and regret how you spent all this time and energy on someone who is about as worthy as a flea. He is a twit. A twat. A dope. He is a liar.

            You know this. He is not going to change. Just let him go. I guarantee he is not that great. None of them ever are. (Except for you, HG.)

        2. WAF Tudor says:

          THATS TRUE until I did major inner work I just bounced from narc to narc. Kids dad for 11 years, (3 year gap) 2 brief affairs with MMR cerebrals, a month after the last one met my MMR ELite DLS situation, and a year into that my narcohoic (who I don’t know but suspect LMR somatic)

          I was still looking for big love – big passion, big persona, big fantasy.
          “The One”.
          That’s gotta go otherwise it’ll always be narcapalooza

        3. Lorelei says:

          Lord don’t we know this!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You might, others don’t.

          2. Lorelei says:

            I know as painful as it is. Damn this sucks. It’s a synchronized relationship that feels very unnatural to not have.

          3. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Have you paused responding to comments for the moment HG? only I’d quite like to get out of bed and make a cup of tea.

            I don’t want to miss any of your replies to other readers.

        4. Whitney says:

          “If you try to get under someone else now you’ll end up with another narcissist”.
          HG this happened to me. You are 100% right and a genius. I’m sooo intriged and bewildered by how it exactly happens. Because I thought he was an empath! (consciously). So what behaviours was he doing that triggered my Narc desires. How do he and I find each other when he operates such a facade. We both present the same! Narcs, Narcs, and more Narcs… I wanna know exactly why and how!

      3. FoolMe1Time says:

        Always 52.

      4. FoolMe1Time says:

        42 or 52. It really doesn’t matter dear.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It does because of accuracy.

          1. FoolMe1Time says:

            Once again I would not have wrote that if I thought that it actually did matter HG.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            If it does not matter, why keep referring to it?

          3. FoolMe1Time says:

            Because my ET spiraled out of control on the other thread. Im not sure what the trigger was, but I have an idea. I’m sorry HG.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Quite alright FM1T, at least you recognise what was happening, that is progress.

          5. FoolMe1Time says:

            Only you would see that as progress. I recognized it HG, but I couldn’t stop it. It took all day to get it under control before I could even start to think about why it was triggered. I actually think I figured out the reasons for that one. But I don’t want to talk about it on here. Apologies again HG.

          6. FoolMe1Time says:

            To you accuracy mattered. I was only confirming that what I wrote wouldn’t have made any sense to her. So it wouldn’t matter what number she used. We just look at things differently that is all. I didn’t mean anything by it. It really doesn’t matter and is not important. Just another crazy empath not making sense.

          7. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            That’s for sure…
            Douglas would be laughing.
            I so enjoyed the hitchhikers series of books in my teens

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Talented man.

          9. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            No, please don’t misunderstand me FM1T…
            My comment wasn’t directed at you, rather, the compulsion for accuracy, which I share with HG. When I read the first comment that mentioned 52 my first thought was, no, 42. That HG bothered to correct the inaccuracy made me laugh. I wasn’t laughing at you and SF and I apologise if I offended either of you. I completely agree with you that it doesn’t matter and is unimportant.

            Also, Douglas would be laughing at the humour of the exchange is what I meant. He was a brilliant man. Whose side is he on HG? Yours or ours? Or in the middle perhaps?

          10. FoolMe1Time says:

            You didn’t offend me at all. 🙃

          11. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            You’re also a brilliant man HG.
            I’m sure you’ll be read and discussed posthumously as Douglas is.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you TT.

          13. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            Glad to read FM1T 😊

          14. Shelf Fuel says:

            My apologies if I have indirectly started a narc site brawl here. 42, 52, who cares. My head hurts. For accuracy, 42. For trying to understand shit…..4252627282…10000….69 (LOL)…57….984. I think I am blind. I really need to get under someone else right now.

          15. Bibi says:

            Douglas Adams? (I assume that is who is being spoken about when the name ‘Douglas’ is being mentioned.) Eh. I read those books as a 12 year old and they were just ok. He always struck me as a poor man’s Vonnegut.

            I don’t consider Adams a ‘serious’ writer (as opposed to Vonnegut). Adams has his charm but he is limited.

            Sorry to ruin the party–but just sayin’.

      5. Bibi says:

        Getting another narc is akin to quitting heroin for meth. A completely lateral move and when you get devalued by narc #2, you will likely look with fondness on narc #1.

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. Shelf Fuel says:

          Yet I still want to numb the pain with Narc #2 because right now the urge to forget Narc #1 is too much.

  33. Shelf Fuel says:

    HG I have waited for this article. I was Piano Boy’s LD NISS (for 8 months) and then DLS/IPSS for 2 years. I now live an hour away so I am a regular old DLS IPSS. But I began long distance. And everything you describe is, as usual, painstakingly accurate AF. Right down to the naughty media being exchanged. Now that I am not LD I think he cannot handle the heat. It is harder for him to keep me on my shelf. Before when I was farther away he could lie lie lie and I believed it all. Now I am able to expose his lies and he does not like it.

    Anyway, thank you for this article. It was interesting to read and apply to my unique situation.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome

  34. Dearest HG: This is a lot to process in the state of modern relationships. I now have a headache. Just when I thought I had a grip on a lot of this, here comes the LDE. I have to sleep on all this for a while. Wow. Tea time for me, for now: I just earned it reading all of this. I bet if you explained all of this on one of your interviews in the future, the Interviewer would probably pass out in shock during the interview, or at least ask for a 15 minute break or so to gather themselves. hahaha. Wow.

  35. Leslie says:

    The narc doesn’t have to live alone. A group of narcs may share a domicile and laptop time due to cultural and financial situations. This is very common in many parts of the world.

    Call centre employees, outsource company employees are also prime candidates for gaining multiple LDEs. They are trained how to interact with clients. They have access to client information. Social media is one of the best resources (as you have explained) for gaining getting LDEs. The employee translates the client information into a social media search and makes the connection. Social media connection suggestions are another way, since once one member of a narc group gets hold of an LDE, these suggestions spread them and their own connections around to many narcs.

    The LDE can be one of many LDEs. Obciously. So much sex, money, attention, and other residual benefits and traits to be gotten from so many with so little effort.

    Please keep writing. Please push social media platforms to extend access to your work.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Leslie and useful observations.

      It is also incumbent on readers to push my work everywhere they can. If you want me to write, answer queries and assist, I need readers to promote alongside that.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: Regarding LDEs: I know a female that had a long distance internet romance with a guy and at some point he sent her photos and he was supposedly a military guy in Iraq that was going to move to her town after his service was over. But, he could not hardly be reached because he was in a top secret location as a military contractor, he told her. So, I asked her, is he in the military or a contractor? It is not easy to be both, I told her. So she emailed him and then she said he emailed back that he is not in the military but a private contractor. To make a long story short, she was part of a con with this `military guy` that uses a `stolen `photo, and it is said and this photo was used on a lot of women. When it was time for the guy to leave the military, he would of course need some funds for an airline ticket and etc. It is a famous con using a military soldier or military contractor legend. The scam appeals to women I read because of the notion: of a hero, a patriot, an isolated man in danger, a man of duty, and handsome and physically fit, and needing her to reintegrate into the civilian world, etc. She reported the scam. It was on Match . com in her case, and other such type of dating sites. And the same con they say is used by many people and keeps changing locations when they are busted because of complaints from clients of dating websites, using the same photos that are passed around, when they discover that a certain photo is very successful in reeling women in. (I am sure all this happens to men as well) She showed me the photo of the guy and he is classically handsome and not smiling, and in uniform. Some have him with his shirt off and sunglasses and not smiling. (some say the guy in the photo is part of the scam even though he says he is not and that he was surprised that his missing photos are being used this way in an infamous scam). My friend was really into this guy. He does not exist though as the man she was communicating with: A group or person were using a photo of this guy. She was being scammed, but fortunately financially she was able to escape, but emotionally she could not believe this was happening to her. I looked at some of the emails from him that she showed me and I believe they are template emails sent to all females with little specifics added to them relating to each female that fell for the scam. Very lonely and heartbreaking emotionally and sometimes financially for these women. P.S. Some of these groups work the numbers game and are very patient and can string some females along for a year or 2 before asking for some money). HG, your article right here reminded me of this female and her internet relationship scam. Just like that photo that you used the other day of the man with the full pull- on mask with the cutout for his eyes, etc. ensnaring behind the computer. Great Photo.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, there are many narcissists who use the “military card” for the purposes of ensnaring people for fuel and for the residual benefit of money. There are a few groups of current military personnel who look to out these fakers (some fake in real life and walk around in uniform etc). I doubt those exposing the individuals realise who are they are dealing with.

    2. Claire says:

      Spot on Leslie:)! Even LinkedIn became a hunting ground for creeps. I am targeted mostly by guys from USA ( or at least the profile states so).

      To all readers here who are in love with the online Prince or Princess Charming .
      Please do bother and track their IP address to have an idea of their real location. There were few heartbreaking stories about Australians falling in live online. One unlucky lady never met her suitor and gladly transferred her life savings to him. Because they got engaged over the phone although she even didn’t see his face ; a scammer from Africa in reality.

      Ladies, how on the Earth you are eager to send nudes to someone? Only my ex Narcs husband got few ( whilst still married) and the normal guy that I had been with for a while . The Narcs most likely won’t publish them on the web ( he is jealous) and the normal had ones with my face almost cropped. So even though they are leaked on the web, nobody would recognise me .

  36. DoForLuv says:

    Seems like I’am a Mid-Range Elite
    Myself but I know I’am not ha ha . I just seem to get myself in this type of situations again and again . I’ve met a great guy online we talk everyday 7 months straight i’m not sure if he is a narc I don’t really think so because he has alot of compassion and patience I’ve been borderline crazy to be honest . Lol time will tell with this one I guess . If it hits 12 months I’ll consult with you HG haha

  37. Kiki says:

    Oh God reading this just made my heart sink
    I am feeling like extreme crap now
    It was 90 percent like this but some meets ,
    I want so badly to turn into a narc and smash this bustards face in , or do something anything to cut him down
    Logically I can’t do a thing , no contact feels crap when you are in a silent treatment as the narc has the power .
    I want to scream , guys I think I’m becoming unhinged as this was a fell swoop , I may as well have been a rabbit in front of a truck
    I think I’m dealing with s greater now .
    I’m a failure HG , how can I ever get to a point of no return, I think I need permanent consults or something or else there is something wrong with me .
    It’s a merry go round of agony and I’m too stupid to get off am I that stupid
    At least I refused to send Selfies thanks HG that’s one thing I won’t do .EVER


    1. Caroline-is-fine says:

      Please stop beating up on yourself! It’s not about you being stupid, at all. Narcissists are master manipulators — cons — liars. It is *their* shame to perpetuate a fraud — not yours.

      You are telling yourself the silence is a rejection, but please try to look at what it really can be: Your opportunity to free yourself of the scam. Believe me, the longer the silence goes, the closer you get to the golden part of it…when your head clears & your heart can heal. Then you will move on, in peace.
      Caroline 💗

      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you Caroline

        I’m feeling calmer now
        I realise I can get quite upset and emotional and I just spew feelings out all over my posts . Is that a lack of control?
        I often wonder why I get like this , it’s like I begin to panic with what I’m feeling and I want to escape it .I become very very overwhelmed easily .
        Now I’m calmer I read back on my post and I sound insane .

        Thank you for your kind words.😊 and reading my post .


        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          You’re welcome, Kiki.💛You didn’t sound “insane”…you sounded fluid with your emotions. 🙂I’d say that being fluid with your emotions makes you a bit of a free spirit…and free spirits aren’t birds who are meant to be caged. They are meant to fly.
          🦅 <That's supposed to be an eagle…I have a new tablet + emojis, but who knows what others are even seeing, lol

    2. LC says:


      “no contact feels crap when you are in a silent treatment”

      If you feel that you’re getting silent treatments then it’s not “no contact”. If this guy gives you silent treatments you know what to do : GOSO…

      I know what you mean about permanent consults. I’ve been told though that it is ok to feel dependent on help for a while as long as the intention by the helper is to empower you. Empowerment takes time.

      I’ve also been told that it’s normal for setbacks to occur.

      Generally it sounds like Internet dating is dangerous for you and it’s better for you to avoid entirely. Read the online empathic target….

    3. mizzlizzi says:


      I don’t understand. If you’re doing No Contact, then it doesn’t matter what the narc is doing; it doesn’t matter if he thinks he’s giving you a silent treatment or not–you are the one with the power.

  38. Desirée says:

    You’re starting to creep me out HG.
    Earlier this day, I thought about one of your livestreams I watched months ago about how you planned on publishing a long-distance article, about how you haven’t done that yet, if you’re still going to etc. What’s the first thing that pops up when I come to your website? And what popped up yesterday when I came to your website after thinking about my narcisstic friend earlier that day? Out of my head you! It’s not ok.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I. Am. Everywhere.

      1. Bibi says:

        I was thinking this. There have been a number of times when you posted an article that I felt resonated with a question or thought I had in that moment. It’s like you know what I am thinking. Very weird.

  39. Moon says:

    Hg tudor I always read your blogs and they are amazing. Thank you for sharing your valuable knowledges you are helping so much people. But I know this is my emotional thinking as always you say but im desperately want to know this. What causes make the LDS ipss to IPPS to the narcissist? Is there any?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for the compliment, Moon.

      I do not understand your question. Perhaps you could expand?

    2. Moon: Are you asking what makes a Narcissist promote the Dirty little Secret to Intimate Partner Primary Source?

  40. Caroline-is-fine says:

    As a former IPPS who is long-distance to the narcissist, this gives me final clarity of exactly what he has been up to, regarding me…I’ve never read this article before…and it shows all my instincts were right, in that the narcissist only has only ever (weirdly) had one role in mind for me: targeting me to be his IPPS again, nothing else…so avoiding the narcissist whenever he goes out of his way (flying in/double-digits travel by car) to show up at my work arena is incredibly important.

    In layman’s terms, he has no interest in attempting to just mess around with me through technology/on the phone, as he has never attempted that + he has always gotten pissed off, in a controlled manner, whenever I (errantly, trying to appease) mentioned friendship.

    But, duh on me, I guess…as he has said to me repeatedly: “I have enough friends” and “I have no desire to be friends with benefits with you either.” There’s not anything left, so process of elimination…plus how he talks to me is enough to get it.

    Okay…I’m on the right track — keep him away from me until he moves on. Thanks for this article, HG. I’m an involuntary Candidate. No way out of that — but stay far away.

    Further note to self: Always pay attention to what a narcissist does/does not do. Therein lies the truth, of what they are really up to (though, in this case, his words also matched up pretty well with that).

  41. MB says:

    “The Long Distance Empath will always be lonely.” : Unless the LDN is just a fantastical break from the daily life of the LDE that has their own life and partner completely apart from the LDN.

    But then…The Devil’s Pitchfork comes into play! As much as I thought I could make it work with intermittent Narc sprinkles and tell myself it was healthy for my sex life; it was ultimately impossible to keep my ET from tipping. It’s a zero sum game with the LDE the loser. Every. Single. Interaction. Period.

    Great article HG. This is helpful to many. Wish I’d had this information sooner. (Although ET would have rejected it anyway.) Still, good to read now. I never underestimate the power of validation and feeling understood.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good to read MB, you are applying the learning.

    2. Bibi says:

      Excellent article, HG and completely spot on. MB also your comments. The ET will always come into play. This type of relationship is especially dangerous for someone like me, who lives in her head and has a fantasy world as it is.

      I have had full relationships go on in my mind that have never happened.

      But here is a question. Let’s say a male somatic narcissist approaches another female somatic narcissist and they engage in this back and forth. This certainly could happen, right?

      Or maybe what I want to ask is how can you be sure that the LDE is really an empath and not another narcissist–2 sex fiends feeding off one another for fuel? Because technically the supposed LDE could be feigning ‘feelings’ and both fooling one another? Will the narcissist catch on that this person isn’t the empath that they instinctively but most often unknowingly crave?

      Oh, new leg shot. Nice.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It is entirely conceivable that two narcissists ensnare one another in this fashion and you will have a “When Narcissists Collide” situation.

      2. MB says:

        Bibi, are we sisters? I live in my head too. I don’t feel free to be me in the real world. I was so different with my N. So freeing. Of course it never went “bad”. If it had, it would have been the opposite of free!

        1. Bibi says:

          I think we might have discussed this on another thread. But yes, I like living there as it is comfortable, controllable and safe. And a lot of benefits can come from it, but also a lot of that feeling of disconnect from others and loneliness.

          The bad part is that it makes these ‘head relationships’ all the more intense. Fantasies and emotion take over and we idealize them, which of course they want. We don’t see them on a day to day basis, going grocery shopping, oh you bought the wrong milk, getting gas, why didn’t you take the car to get cleaned, etc.? All this mundane crap gets flushed in fantasy.

          It’s also to imbue more into them when they are long distance, as in, thinking they understand you better b/c they spend their time listening to you, and any problems they mention are far away.

          This long distance can be deceptive in how it can fool us into thinking we ‘have it all under control,’ when we never do b/c we get attached and they don’t.

          My most intense narcs have been long distance, and thinking I could handle them in pieces is akin to thinking I could handle gum in my hair. Just have to cut them out.

          1. MB says:

            Bibi, “my most intense narcs have been long distance” I know what you mean. Anybody that hadn’t experienced it would say that’s crazy. I lived with gum in my hair for six and half years. I can get a comb through it now. I still feel the snags at times though.

          2. MB: Being a NIPSS to the workplace Narcissist was almost like being in a long distance relationship in many ways, I see. Except, we did not interact on social media really, and I physically saw him around 5 days a week. Oddly, one day some of us were discussing him, Me and 3 of his 4 malign Lieutenants. We were jesting around. And each spoke of the fantasy they had about him. One said this and one said that etc., and when it was my turn, I realized that I never had fantasies about him. I said this. They were upset with me and did not believe me. I thought about it later, and I believe that because of his Narcissism, I could not find him that way, in my mind. And, after recently reading HG Tudor`s Book: Sex and the Narcissist, I felt justified. I really did not have a basis to understand what he is like in that arena. Who knows what he is like. I surely do not know. And I blocked my mind from going there early on anyway because of a certain incident: Once, while he was setting up a presentation, about a year and a half in, that I was around him and not fully infatuated with, nor addicted to him yet, and many of us were milling about etc., one of his coterie members, not a Lieutenant, taunted him more than she usually did. She was saying things like: oh baby, I will listen to anything you say, and you look so hot with that red shirt, and tell me if you need help, and I won’t tell my husband, etc. etc. etc. He finally became irritated (he rarely showed irritation with people) and turned and looked around at her and said, in front of everyone as if the rest of us did not exist in that room, and he said, directly to her: Do you really want some of me? You want some of this? Believe me, I can deliver! So, tell me right now, do you really want some of me or not? Name the date and the place! Everyone froze on the spot! MB, you could hear a pin drop in that room. She softly said, No. He went back to setting up. I remember thinking to myself: Wow. I do not want any of all that. Hahaha! And, so I never fantasized about him. I would not know where to begin. I knew then that something was there that I did not exactly know how to contemplate. Perhaps something a little frightening, or intense? Then, I did not know what was there. Now, I know what was there: From my growing understanding, He is a seasoned Somatic Narcissist.

      3. Anm says:

        My daughter’s narc father would very much entrap a somatic narcissist for long distance relationship. He wants it all. For an IPPS or even most IPSS, he will usually look for an Empath or Codependent. But he has had numerous long distance relationships, and this is to fulfill all of his desires.
        There is one Somatic Narcissist that has been an ongoing Long Distance IPSS. She lives in Scottsdale, and he will go see her, do a bunch of coke, go to fancy restaurants, cause drama with eachother, and who knows what else. She got engaged to someone she only knew for a few weeks, and he was angry about it. It didn’t last, and they went back into the same dynamic.

        1. Ahm. Incredible!

      4. nunya biz says:

        I am an extreme fantasist as well. My first memories are of growing up in an isolated rural area where I had invisible friends, I spent my early years constantly reading books, I had the void of two N parents and big signs of early love addiction- been a narc target for as long as I remember.
        The online narc I thought was my friend was dangling something for me to attach to, but it never was anything. The concept of a person offering a false attachment in place of a real one infuriates me. Attachment is not something to toy with. It can be very damaging. Finding out the world isn’t real is very disturbing and it is what caused me to sever ties initially. My anger and resentment never reached such levels.
        I *almost* can’t fantasize anymore since I realized it was part of my problems I feel myself leaning toward romanticism or fantasy occasionally and I have a negative, almost physical reaction. Even last year I was still having some romantic notions and realized it was just caused by more Narc bullshit.
        I do think the excitement of a relationship can still happen and be grounded in true feelings though.

        HG, this article is one of those that I think is indispensable for people, it should be required reading.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I agree and do ensure you share it.

          1. nunya biz says:

            Ha! I have no social network to speak of for “shares” but I do try to do things in my own way in the world. I appreciate you, HG.

  42. Paola says:

    Very interesting! It is very similar to my situation, but my narc at least met me 6 times in 3 years, he said that he liked my hugs and my kisses but he wasn’t willing to turn up to me unless he was already around my country for other works (or affairs). So I was a long distance empathic for him? Or was I a simple IPSS shelf?

    1. Why? says:

      He met you 6 times in 3 years? The narcissist that I was talking to lived in the same country as me and in 3 years, he would not meet me even once. So, ridiculous. He was so obstinate.

    2. Why? says:

      What school was he? LMR, MMRN, UMRN, or greater?

  43. MB says:

    We’ve been waiting for this! Thank you, HG! Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. MB: It is a lot to process. I have the nagging suspicion that I just dodged a bullet that may have been coming my way. LIke someone handing you your keys or wallet before you realized that you misplaced them somewhere. And you say thank you , and you ponder what trouble would have been involved in your life, if someone had not handed you your keys and wallet, and you haplessly had returned home and then noticed they were missing. Scary.

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