The Lesser Narcissist



Here comes a Lesser Narcissist. We shall call him Lee.

“What did you call me?”

Hello Lee. A Lesser Narcissist.

“No I’m not, it’s you that’s the narcissist, I’m sick of you saying that there is something wrong with me, when it’s you that has the problem. You do it on purpose, always trying to wind me up, I’ve fucking had enough of it.”

Sigh. That’s another plate broken and a panel punched in the door. Again. He’s gone, but he will be back. You see, that’s a typical reaction of the Lesser. He doesn’t know what he is. Often he will not even know what a narcissist is, but if you try to tell him, even if you do it in a calm and pleasant way, he doesn’t hear what you are saying, he just hears the criticism. When that happens his fury ignites and usually he will lash out. That’s why he insulted me, tried to shift the blame on to me, smashed the plate and punched the door. He didn’t think about doing any of that. It just happened. He reacts and responds by instinct. He is a creature of instinct. I didn’t hear the front door slam so he must be in the house still. Let’s go and find him.

Here he is. Locked in his den. His bolthole and sanctuary from the criticism. He is tapping away on his ‘phone. Let’s see. Yes, he is texting a couple of ladies who he has been flirting with online. You see, he didn’t hang around to see my reaction to the ignition of his fury, but he knows it will have troubled me. Sometimes knowing that reaction will be enough but not today. His fuel supplies must be low. That’s why he is tapping into some secondary sources by texting or probably sexting these women. Let’s see if we can coax him out of his bolthole. I will knock at the door.

You see he has turned his head and smiled, but hasn’t answered my knocking. He is pleased that I have come to try to find out if he is alright. That makes him feel powerful. My reaction, of tip-toing to him and gently rapping on the door reinforces that he is the one who is superior in our relationship. Again, he doesn’t think this through, so do be grateful for your humble narrator explaining this for you, but that is what is happening inside of Lee. I knock again and call out his name. He remains silent. Lee knows that silent treatment makes him feel powerful. Add that sensation to the flirtatious messages I can see that he is receiving and he is receiving fuel from three sources. Me and two supplementary sources. They are probably acquaintances now since mobile numbers have been exchanged. The fury that Lee experienced at my perceived criticism will now be subsiding as the fuel is provided. This makes him feel calmer. Lee knows that certain things make him furious and then other things makes him calmer. Let’s ask him if he knows why.

“Hey Lee, don’t hide in there, why did you get angry like that? All I did was say that you are a lesser narcissist.”

Notice that I haven’t said this in a pleading way, or through tears, or even shouted it at him. I have made this point and asked the question in a neutral fashion. Watch what he does now. See how fast the irritation has arrived. This is because I am not giving him any fuel with my comment. I have also interrupted the flow of the fuel from the two women by distracting him. To make matters worse I have repeated the comment and he will perceive this as a criticism. Again, he won’t have worked any of this out, he is a Lesser so it doesn’t happen. Whereas I have explained the process. This is what actually happens in Lee’s mind.

  1. He hears my comment;
  2. He feels wounded by that comment. This manifests as irritation;
  3. His fury ignites.

It is as quick and as straight forward as that. Here comes the fury.

Lee marches from his desk and flings the den door open.

“How many fucking times have I told you not to disturb me when I am in my den? You never listen to me!”

Notice the contorted features as the fury takes over.

“I only asked a reasonable question.”

I say this in a neutral tone again. No fuel is being provided. This annoys him further because this is a criticism and it wounds him.

“Are you saying I am unreasonable?” he demands jutting his jaw forward in an aggressive manner.

Of course dear reader I said no such thing did I, but Lee doesn’t process it that way. My neutral remark is taken again as a criticism, hence his response.

“I’m just pointing out what you are and besides, you are always in there, messing around doing who knows what, you should be working.”

Lee rarely works. He doesn’t see any reason to. He believes I should keep him after all, in his mind he is the superior one and therefore I should run around after him. He only does chores when he knows he can get some fuel, for instance, chopping logs in the yard so people can admire his physical prowess, otherwise he won’t bother. Again Lee doesn’t think about chopping the logs in terms of receiving admiring looks from our neighbour Josie, he just knows when he does it, she smiles and talks to him and he feels good inside. But I digress. Back to the foaming Lee who is stood in the doorway of the den. He won’t let me in there. It is his domain. What is his is his and nobody else’s.

“What are you saying that for?” he growls. His fury is increasing at the criticism that he should be working. Here it comes. The right hand swipes and he slaps me across my face. You see he cannot control the fury and with Lee it manifests as heated fury as he lashes out.

I let out a cry and raise my palm to my face, eyes showing the pain arising from his physical abuse of me. Look at that small smile on his lips. That is because my fearful reaction has given him negative fuel. He wanted that. He doesn’t know that he wanted that but he knows that seeing me scared, upset, angry or frustrated, amongst other things makes him feel stronger and more powerful.

“You should be working,” I repeat but the neutral tone is gone now and it comes out part comment, part sob as the tears well up. His hand is raised to deliver another blow but he doesn’t because my tears are fuelling him. Although I have criticised him by stating he should be working, it will not feel like criticism to Lee because it is surrounded in emotion. That is what he wants. He doesn’t know that, but that is what he wants.

His fury is still there but it has receded within his parameters of control, low as they are. If I had kept on he would have erupted further and probably punched and kicked me down the hall. It has happened before. And will again. As a Lesser his control threshold is low and regularly his fury boils over into verbal and physical violence. Notice how he is standing there grinning. The provision of my fuel is making him feel powerful and that is why he looks happy. It is not true happiness. Lee doesn’t know what that is, but he knows that feeling powerful makes him feel good and that is why he is smiling. I am going to back off now.

I walk away and Lee content with the fuel he has extracted from me (although he does not know this) turns and goes back into the den. He will text the two ladies for a while longer, gathering more fuel and then with the fury receded and his fuel levels higher, he will feel more settled so he will watch one of his action films or play on his Xbox for a while. He won’t be thinking about me. He doesn’t have the function to do so for long when I am not in front of him. Lee as a Lesser is very much about dealing with what is on his plate. Yes, I will invade his consciousness from time to time but he is not given to planning. It is all spur of the moment, reaction, responses, instinct, seat of the pants. That is why he is seen as such a whirlwind, bouncing from one ignition of fury to the next. He has no overarching strategy, no grand design, but he is an aggressive hunter gatherer who knows that I, his longstanding and long suffering partner infuriates him but he keeps me around because, well, I do the chores and lie there and think of England when he is grinding away on top of me. Writing of which, let’s fast forward to bed time. I have retired first and here comes Lee padding up the stairs, a belly full of Scotch (he likes a few drinks when he is watching his films).

“Hey,” he says as he enters the darkened bedroom. He doesn’t lower his voice or gently shake me. Why would be bother when he is entitled to do as he pleases. Again, Lee doesn’t think that way, he just does it, he just acts in that manner of the entitled Lesser.

“What is it?” I ask blearily.

“Move over, I’m getting in.”

That’s his way of saying he wants sex. If he wanted to sleep he would just climb into bed. Notice how there is no apology for hitting me, no expression of concern or remorse for the earlier altercation. That’s because he has forgotten about it. Imagine Lee’s mind like a small external hard driver. It only has so much memory and automatically jettisons so much information. If in a few days’ time I refer to him slapping me he will give me a confused look and say,

“What are you talking about?”

That’s because he cannot recall it. It has been wiped from his mind. It is an instinctive reponse and demonstrates why with the Lesser he denies so much of what he is accused of and does it with sincerity because he really does not remember. There is no pretence, not like those from other schools. He does not remember, but that is a few days away. Let’s return to now.

“I said, move up, I am getting in.”

Still no apology. He continues as if nothing happened earlier. This is because he sees no wrong in what he has done. He responded. It was instinct to him and therefore for him, instinct is natural and correct. If I challenged him about his behaviour from before, now, it would be a criticism. His fury would be ignited and with the additional accelerant of the alcohol I would be dragged from the bed, beaten and forced to sleep downstairs. He may even throw me in my night clothes on to the street. All an instinctive reaction to the criticism and his lack of control over his ignited fury. I won’t challenge him though. I have learned not to, it is safer you see. It took me a long time to realise that this was the best course of action. I used to stand up to him you see. I thought that it would make him respect me if I did but it won’t. The Lesser regards any denial of their authority as criticism and, you’ve guessed it, the fury ignites.

Time to put on a performance then. If I refuse his advances he will kick off. If I don’t put in feigned enthusiasm, he will kick off. As a Lesser he is not very good at distinguishing between real and faked emotions at times. He is better with some than others. For instance, he knows real fear and upset compared to any that is faked. This is because he has the most experience of seeing people scared, upset and frightened so he instinctively knows when it is real and when it is not. When it comes to matters between the sheets although Lee believes himself to be the champion of sexual technique (he has certainly had plenty of partners as he regularly likes to boast about them to me) he could be rutting a slab of steak for all the variance and finesse he deploys. He wasn’t always like that. He did make an effort during our golden period, but that is long gone. Now he just wants to exert his dominance over me and be made to feel powerful so you will have to excuse me as I make the relevant noises, say the stock phrases and pull my porn faces. That will please Lee the Lesser and provide him with a final burst of delicious positive fuel before he slumps besides me and falls into an undisturbed sleep. He always sleeps well does Lee. His lesser function means that there is not a lot racing around in his mind as slumber approaches. So, there’s a glimpse of how a – I’d better whisper this so he doesn’t hear – Lesser Narcissist is. Now, turn around please, you shouldn’t be watching what comes next.

141 thoughts on “The Lesser Narcissist

  1. Renarde says:

    Dear K

    Maybe he did have another less obvious reason. Maybe both did? I’m not in touch with either now so it’s just intellectising on my part. But thanks for the heads up.

    When I post HGs work, I have a rule. I dont tend to get involved in discussions when it goes beyond say, 5 or 6 other posters. I find that as much as I want to help, HGs advice gets lost in the largely meaningful but useless noise.

    I stand a far better chance of actually helping if I get in early. I once posted a general thread on NPD. Ask away I said. Women LOVED it! For a say or so it was like a mini NS. I could see that people were coming over here.

    Then the inevitable. I was called a narc. Then the thread started to wreck so I let it die. I may do it again actually. I have a better idea of how to manage that if it should occur again.

    I am concerned, that someone 2ho is keeping tabs on me but say, ‘Well Een always says NPD’ and that’s true. But it’s only true because I look for them! I also see the ones from female narcs and the inevitable confused male middles. I read them for knowledge.

    The change is happening. More and more women are eschewing dating and therefore sex.

    Incidentally re sex, there us a rise of women, my age, doing FWB. in the past those women would’ve been torn down as naive. They are bloody not! There is also a greater tolerance of porn that was simply not there say 10 years ago.

    So yup. Society is changing. Women are talking and opening up. But the stories they are saying are so frightening.

    It’s good we have a safe space here x

    1. K says:

      Dear Renarde

      My pleasure, keep up the NC. Other groups can be risky and then the inevitable accusations of “you’re a narcissist” present and then you are bullied off the site. You can see ‘it’ because you learned about NPD here but others can’t, think: Why Can’t They See It Too?

      I don’t have a problem with FWB or porn, however, there are a lot of narcissists out there looking for FWB and into the porn scene so women have to proceed with caution. Society is changing but the knowledge about NPD is minimal and that is frightening. Thank God, this is a safe space X.

  2. WokeAF says:

    HG does an UL have any facade awareness or maintenance?

    Seems like the lessers (Unwittingly) have to sacrifice the facade for immediate fuel & control

    Whereas the MR needs the facade & control but suffers fuel interruptions.

    Is this a thing or just appears that way to me from my particular narc experiences?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is no facade awareness or maintenance.

      1. WokeAF says:

        Ok thank you

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  4. WokeAF says:

    Hey! Speaking of Lessers, I was having trouble picturing the LL
    but , does anyone watch Trailer Park Boys?
    Keeping in mind they’re fictional so won’t be perfect reps, but I have
    Ricky pegged as a lower lesser victim
    Julian as a ML somatic
    and Mr Lahey as a LMR elite narcoholic

    Any thoughts?

    I should mention even tho I was raised middle class, my babydaddy narc brought me into the trailer park type of life and so this show appeals to me as I relate LOL yeah. Good times. It’s also where I got a good dose of the serial impregnator lessers and LMR’s

  5. WokeAF says:

    I’ll correct myself : narcs cannot be managed – but LL and ML are easier to get rid of as they don’t have the fuel, money or brains to do much if you escape well

    I’d hate to have to parent with a MR

    1. Pati says:

      Hi WokeAF I am currently married to a MR he is very successful and very intelligent. It you meet him you would never know he is s Narcissist.

    2. Pati says:

      What I meant is he is a midranger

      1. WokeAF says:

        Yes I was referring to the lower lessers (LL) and middle lessers (ML)

        1. Pati says:

          Oops sorry I thought about that after hugs

  6. mollyb5 says:

    HG Most lessers occupy prisons ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do you mean :

      1. Are most of the Lesser Narcissists in prison , or
      2. Is the prison population made up on mostly of Lessers?

      1. mollyb5 says:

        2 yes .

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. mollyb5 says:

            Hg I know my narc would be in jail. Either by me or employers .

            If they didn’t “feel” concern for his family . And …I say this to HG , nobody else. HG would you possibly be in jail if you didn’t have a caring ……..or …or an overly concerned ( mother) about how you and the family would be perceived ?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No. My kind do not go to prison.

          3. mollyb5 says:

            HG ..1)do you mean that you are smart enough to get away with crime and that you are above the laws 2) or you know how to use lawyers to get out of punishment 3)or lawyers will do and accept money / to keep your kind from doing time , 4) or your kind doesn’t get caught ever , too smart .

          4. mollyb5 says:

            HG ? Do you mean 1) the Greater Narcissist doesn’t get caught ,

            2) Or the greater has the money to get out of anything he gets caught doing that might be illegal , therefore doesn’t get sentenced to prison

            3) the Greater doesn’t have to do time because they have high up connections that help them get away with illegal acts that the rest of the population would go to prison for ?

            4) Any of those above or is it another scenario that’s not stated ?
            5) the Greater usually kills himself before he goes to prison ?

            6) Make a new plan Stan

          5. HG Tudor says:

            1. Usually.
            2. Usually.
            3. Usually.
            4. There are other factors.
            5. No.

  7. WAF Tudorita says:

    If you can manage to escape alive- the Lee’s are waaaaay easier to handle than the MR or god forbid greaters
    They usually aren’t very bright and have lower income so as long as they get to pretend to be a parent once in a while (and don’t realize they actually have no say)
    I like to put on a ditzy, confused, contemplative face and ask my babydaddy his opinion ( on what I’m going to do anyhow ) before I ask for anything- like extra child support for eg
    “Gosh, kid has sure grown!”
    “He sure has! “ (big pride face)
    “Gosh he’s gonna need some new clothes.”
    “Hmm. Yeah….”
    “You could maybe swing an extra hundred sometime?”
    Now since “sometime” is vague, his reply will be along the lines of
    “Yeah, sure! Not right now..maybe next cheque..”

    Then if I gently push each time I see him for a while. First ask him about something he can boast about, ask about one of his lousy prick coworkers, so he can rant. Laugh at what he says. Then;
    “Hmmm, you think you could throw me that $ soon? I’d sure appreciate it.”
    I’ll eventually get the cash.

    As opposed to
    “Kid grew. Needs clothes, I’ll need you to help with that.”
    THAT will cause a tantrum.

    Lee’s can be managed. From a safe distance.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, they cannot. You only got what you wanted because he wanted to provide it. Your ET is conning you into thinking you secured the outcome, you did not. If he did not want to do it, all the “gentle pushing” in the world will not guarantee the outcome. You were fortunate.

      1. WokeAF says:

        i Don’t think I secure the outcome HG, ; I just know how to approach my particular victim narc for a desired outcome & how not to….they are pretty predictable , and esp since Ive been ”co parenting” for 22 years

        1. Renarde says:

          Just coming on here to echo HG’s words. You can never manipulate another narc (well, unless you know where the bodies are buried of course but that’s different.).

          HG is right. You were incredibly lucky.

          Betcha any money when he gets his new IPPS, he’ll disengage and block you. You will always be vulnerable to a Hoover but tbh, as a stranger saying this to you. It’s worth not having that extra money to get him utterly out of your life. Whilst he is still in the general matrix he could be causing havoc for you in places that you might not be aware of, yet!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Renarde and logical observations in your third paragraph.

          2. Renarde says:


            Thank you for giving me that confirmation. It’s always good to know.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          4. WokeAF says:

            We’ve been separated 13 years and he’s only scored random scratchings of affection from women. He’s a low functioning victim cadre and has never blocked me . Occasionally his phone gets cut off when he’s homeless but he always finds a way to get back in touch, altho I played the part of platonic mommy for all these years until February when I gave up on him as the kids are older and can attempt to reach him if they want to see him. They don’t.
            He’s an addict, very unattractive as he ages and pathetic .
            I suspect he’s either ML or LMR, can’t consult yet due to financial difficulties.
            He’s rarely in touch but does more or less follow regular meetup sched to give child support (when he’s employed)
            He’s never attempted any sort of malice campaign, which made me question if he IS a narc, but he fits the victim cadre so well I’m pretty much every way.
            It’s been 13 years and no havoc caused .

            The only hoover I ever experienced was being hoovered to try to get back with him but even that was a meager attempt. Oh, and hoovering to borrow $, a couch to sleep on, or a ride or whatever, which I started denying flat out last year so he doesn’t bother anymore. He’s not allowed in my house and he accepts it (doesn’t accept WHY but has accepted I work bridge on it)

            I collect the $400 a month bc it serves my own purposes right now and asLnf if the ties cord that I don’t need it I’ll stop

            I’m lucky in that I reproduced with probably the most inefficient type of narc, but I’ve been manipulating situations with him for 22 years and it can’t be luck if it works 99% of the time, surely?

            I mean, I’m genuinely asking. He’s got every narc pillar up to LMR , explodes in a verbal tirade when injured, has all the traits but has never been more than an mild inconvenience since I left him- outside of being a dick about taking responsibility for his kids – and being a shit parent when he tried…but I gave up on that and that was the only issue we had post separation

            So to me it just seems like I know what buttons to push or not push to get the little he’s willing to offer to help with his kids…and I know what to say or not say to boost his mood or enrage him – I don’t see this as so strange with certain Narcs?

          5. WokeAF says:

            Hg I plead with you to give us more on the victim cadre.
            I personally know more than 10! Instances of mommy-carriers that have low functioning, not-physically-violent , addict type narc baby daddies that treat us like an entitled, resentful 15 he old treats his mother.
            Also several of them are serial impregnators- bounce once the baby is a few months old or so, find a new mommy-carrier, do the dance again. Bounce again , maybe Hoover a previous babymama, maybe get a new one.
            They usually don’t do malice campaigns and only smear just enough to score the next victim, and to present to their VERY small coterie that the ex is a crazy emotional basket case that won’t let them see their kid.
            In reality they don’t try.
            Others are less fortunate in the looks department and are happy to get true fuel from their video game buddies and fellow addicts , rarely scoring an IPPS and relying on NITS and alcohol for fuel For the most part (nine is one of these)
            The victim cadre or perhaps the LMR victim cadre seems to be a bit different that all the rest in that they are cowardly, avoidant and while yell and scream , rarely get physical and will behave to the minimum standard of acceptable if they have a “home” with the mommy-narc
            (Until they get too pressured to help out then they jet and find a replacement mommy-)

          6. Renarde says:

            WAF Jesus Christ. I was exhausted reading that! What an utterly endless circle jerk!

          7. WokeAF says:

            Haha! Yup it’s an exhausting life and most of the baby mamas either have addiction issues or are codependent or have other trauma that causes them to cling to these guys.

            It’s not till you get well and truly away from the life that you realize how exhausting it really was

          8. Renarde says:

            WAF I do not doubt that! Wow!

          9. WokeAF says:

            If you want examples go watch “Young & Pregnant” on mtv (for a couple of real cases)
            There’s a couple of em on there altho they are teens and just starting their narc impregnating career
            They are often found on shows like Maury Povich, getting paternity tested for the 5th time

          10. WokeAF says:

            “Love After Lockup” is another one I’m enjoying immensely. (Reality tv)
            One dude has a babymama with 2 kids and a mistress he bounces between – keeping both waiting on the outside when he’s in jail and trying to keep them from killing each other when he’s out. He’s a victim lesser for sure- and not a real violent one. They just AST when you get in their face and go live with the latest IPSS / babymama for while.
            It’s a whole shit show and I love it because I’ve been there to a degree so it’s funny as hell now

          11. WokeAF says:

  ’s just I’ve seen SO much of this type I’m surprised you haven’t elaborated on it much and I’m dying to hear your take on it. I’m wondering if you haven’t witnessed it much as it’s very much prevalent in the poverty level of society and not your level?

          12. Renarde says:


            Very good point. I just didnt see it as a child. My father was a Greater, you see. It took me a long time to finally accept that.

            Funnily enough, both sides of the family did span the working class/middle class divide. I have hunches which ones were handy with their fists but I never saw anything as what you have described.

      2. Pati says:

        Thats what people tell me about my midranger that I am fortunate because be provides everything to all my kids and makes a descent living . Little do they know.

  8. Soon to be sparkling! says:

    This was an interesting read HG, which stirred up a lot of old memories.

    Hello Dad. Hair trigger temper. Instant violence. No recollection. Seeking praise from one sibling while attacking another. Mum crying in terror begging us not to say a word to him! Which of course made it worse for whom ever went silent and ignored him. Cannon fire of permanent explosions. Never a second of respite unless he was out. And then waiting in terror for the knowledge that he would be home soon.

    I can remember finally learning as a late teen to stay neutral through it all. Show no fear or weakness or anything at all. I had stopped crying and begging for him to stop like when I was so small.

    In later years I had finally stopped screaming back at him and defending myself in absolute defiance and disrespect. I was no longer interested in arguing with stupid.

    In later years, mum would usher whoever she could help into an upstairs bedroom and we’d all barricade the door while he tried to break it down and as he’d be forcing his way through, out the window we’d go, across the roof and down the golden elm. Mum knew he wouldn’t come outside as the neighbours would then not just hear, but also see.

    Then the sulking pitiful beast that he was, he would just silently retreat to his bedroom, where hours later mum would crawl and plead her way back into bed with him as if he were a king.

    One memory that burns still, was after school one day;

    I was sitting on the floor in the lounge room watching tv. He came in the room and I completely ignored him. He started insulting me and telling me I was pathetic. That no one would ever love me. That I would always be alone. These comments were daily for a good 10 years. I ignored him and never looked away from the tv. Then he came closer and repeated it all. I ignored him. So he stood in front of the tv. So I just closed my eyes and listened to it. So he turned it off and sat down next to me. I got up, turned it back on and sat on the other side of the room. So he turned it back off. I got up and turned it back on and sat down. He turned it off. I stayed sitting and closed my eyes and ignored him. He started saying I was unlovable again so I put my fingers in my ears. Then I could feel him poking my chest so hard so I opened my eyes and his face was a centimetre away from mine. He started repeating, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do over and over. He started pulling my hair and my ears. I just ignored him. Then he slapped my face so hard that I saw black. Then he slapped the other side of my face. And then the other and then the other and over and over it went. It kept going for a long time and I couldn’t even scream. The tears kept coming due to the pain but not one sob or noise or look of fear.

    I knew I was completely trapped. I had already learned the hard lesson that if I argued back it would have been so much worse. I had also learned that begging and pleading made him go harder too. It made absolutely no difference what I did. If there wasn’t a distraction to him from another family member I was f*cked, plain and simple.

    The next day he would tell mum that I had bruised myself for attention. She knew the truth but we didn’t bother talking about it anymore.

    I had started a diary to get it all out as I couldn’t talk to anyone about it. He came home one day in a very jolly mood. He was acting like a weird 5 year old dancing around. He scattered paper all around me and up in the air. The c*nt had photocopied my diary and had taken the copies to work to show his bastard mates. He told me how they all laughed at how pathetic I was. That I was nothing but a joke. I fell to the floor as I read the closest page. It was my experience of losing my virginity and I cried so hard that I couldn’t breathe. He was so gleeful. My mum later told me that it was no big deal and to just get over it.

    I remember that when I saw his glee I thought that when he was a helpless old man that I was going to show him what real happiness looks like.

    I became a lone wolf and my entire family disconnected from each other. None of my 3 siblings or I have spoken for over a decade as we were played off against each other for so many years that there is no relationship.

    For years my mother would phone me and invite me to Christmas dinner with her and dad. I refused of course, as gently as I could. She would then tell me how I was an evil daughter for ruining her Christmas. She would cry and tell me that she hates Christmas now and it’s all my fault.

    We don’t speak often. Maybe once a year. It’s awkward and I try to avoid it as much as possible. I miss her because I remember how sweet she once was but whoever she was is long gone. She has no light left in her eyes. She has a strange detached/deranged look in her eye that I can’t bear to see. And she always says the same thing, “just come and see me and if you’re a good girl and don’t set him off, everything will be fine”. She can’t be helped. I tried meeting her out, but then he attacks her for it later. So I stopped all together.

    I was in heaven the day my partner attacked my dad and took me away from them. I just wish she had found someone else to take her away too.

    The house of fucking poison. Every few years I have to drive past it for some reason or another and I always feel sad that it still stands.

    You lessors will never know the damage you do.

    Sorry for such a long post HG, reading about the lessor seemed to trigger a few old scars. But it does feel good to get out one of a thousand!

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Soon to be sparkling.

      I can relate to all of what you wrote. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone and that others understand.

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hello NarcAngel 🤗

        Thank you so much! I really do appreciated that.

        I felt very alone before I came here. More so, than I have ever felt before.

        I hate that others only found this site due to their own suffering too.

        But thank goodness that we all had somewhere to go for help.

        And yes! We are not alone! And that’s a collective silver lining for us all 🤗


      2. Gypsy Heart says:

        Soon to be sparkling,

        I can also relate to you. My childhood experience sounds much like yours. He would even utter those exact same words. Take comfort in knowing you are not alone. My heart goes out to you.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Soon to be sparkling!,

      Thank-you for sharing your painful and poignant story. I’m glad you have a found a place to vent and make some sense out of that kind of childhood experience. 💜

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hello WhoCares 🤗

        You’re welcome!

        I agree! We have this place!

        And the more I vent, the less I hold.


    3. Renarde says:


      My heart broke utterly for you when I read that he had stolen your diary and showed it around before destroying it in front of you. Scum. A man who had never even for one single iota of a moment had an original thought, idea or inspiration in his mind. It’s a powerful time to distort a young post- pubescent females mind and now that horrific event has now been linked with losing your virginity. Unforgivable.

      Somehow the link between sex and love becomes fused. Are females even born not making that distinction, I wonder? Never happened with me so that’s strange. Believe me, it was tried many, many times.

      To your mum. It’s bad. It’s shocking. Has to be an Empath so I guarantee you that her lack of action will be making her mind be utterly divided. Cognitive dissonance. She feels guilt. She knows she did wrong. Truly. But then her natural affective empathic response will now be dwarfed by the fact that this man is providing her with shelter. That maybe even trumps the maternal instinct. It’s Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Shelter is always at the bottom. The most important. Hence she disassociates and compartmentalises these events. Over and over again.

      The signs you see in her eyes show that she now has very severe PTSD and the dissociation is now heavily, deeply entrenched. This will need true psychiatric ward help from very trained professionals.

      All you can do is keep an LC up if you don’t to go full NC. Always remember that ‘corrupted’ Es are like very bad tape recorders. Even the most innocuous comment that she could make to Lee is ‘Oh, STBS went to that new place, for a meal. Said she had a really good time!’

      Lee with thusly respond :’Huh? She shouldn’t. She’s as wide as a cow as it is!’ or maybe, ‘That’s where the scum go.’ You can imagine where this might lead in sphere 1 between them.

      What I would do is this.

      Get into the habit of ringing your mum regularly. Not all the time but some of the time. As her how she is and focus the convo on her. At all times. Manipulate the conversation. (I know, shocking). Send thoughts of love whilst you are doing it. When you sense that she really wants to hear about you, then say. ‘Ah, got to go’. Before you do, tell her you love her, you miss her and that you are always here.’ That’s it. Nothing else.

      Hopefully, over time, she will begin to see you as a reassuring, dependable presence. You are not supplying any information, so rucks cant start their ends over you at least. Of course, over time you will need to start supplying some information. Carefully managed though.

      I can assure you that your mum is painting you black, then white, then black because of what Lee is doing to her. So you need to show consistency. It’s an unenviable task. I would certainly not judge you for going into NC after what has happened to you.

      Your poor mum is in such great danger and she’s lived with that terror for years and years. I know full well the impact it must have had on you.

      Please keep talking here if you can and if you find it helps. It’s a safe space.

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hello Renarde 🤗

        Thank you for your reply.

        He didn’t actually destroy the diary, he photocopied the pages and put my diary back. It was photocopies that he threw all around me. But what happened was devastating to me, because then I knew that not only could I not talk to anyone about it, but I couldn’t get it all out privately either.

        It was the hardest time of all because I had no way to release it all. I think it was why i had turned to books early on. I escaped it all in pages of fantasy and it was like a security blanket of sorts. My imagination became the most beautiful place I could find and the only way out.

        I can’t be there for my mum anymore. I know it’s hard for her. It hurts me to think about her life. It hurts me to think about how alone she is with him. I really have tried and tried to kept minimal contact. We txt to say hello once every six months and no phone calls at all for the last 2 years. I just can’t do it with her anymore. She will always tell me hurtful things about how much she does for my siblings. She bought one of them a house outright. She makes a big show of it all. For my last birthday she sent me a pink hot water bottle.

        It’s not about the money. I have my own and don’t need her help. It’s about the blantant preference that she insists on displaying to me. I find it thoughtless and hurtful that she always does it. Last time we spoke, I heard how she had paid for his pilots licence and had been paying all his bills for the past 2 years. The time before she was exploding with excitement about how this sibling was so trustworthy that he had been made executor of their wills. There is always some new thing that she does that just drives the nail in my back each time.

        There is nothing to be done but just let her go and hope she is ok. Trying to be there for her causes me harm after harm and I explain politely to her, that it hurts me when she does it and she replies that I’m ridiculous and carrying on and screams at me. I explain to her that I am not speaking in a disrespectful tone or manner and she just scream s at me more. I can’t do it anymore.

        The female association with sex was odd for me. I never found anyone that I adored when I was really young so I completely seperated love and sex. I used to only engage in exceptionally wild sex as the thought of making love was all wrong to me. I could never feel loved or accepted so I couldn’t make love. My lover narc changed all that and now I can’t stand the thought of wild sex acts.

        From one extreme to the other.

        I do find learning here and talking here, to be of paramount comfort and release. I do feel safe to let go here. I find certain articles that get posted apply a direct hit to me and I just vent it out. It feels good to do so.

        Thank god for it! For all of you! For HG! I would have been twisted up and deeply alone for the rest of my life without this place!


    4. K says:

      Soon to be sparkling!
      Your experience was horrific and you deserved better than that hell you were put through. Your childhood sounds like it was an absolute nightmare.

      Your mum’s behaviour raises Red Flags. She invalidated your feelings re: the photocopied diary (gas lighting) and she projected re: Christmas dinner (you are an evil daughter for ruining dinner), deployed a Pity Play (cried), Triangulation and a further blame shift (she hates Christmas and it’s all your fault). She was trying to exploit your empathic traits of guilt and decency.

      This statement is projection which incorporates a blame shift: “just come and see me and if you’re a good girl and don’t set him off, everything will be fine”

      The physical abuse that you sustained in the lounge room while watching tv was very difficult to read. You kept ignoring your dad and he kept switching manipulations, essentially, upping the ante to get a reaction (tears).

      The next day, it turns out that you are responsible for your own physical abuse (you wanted attention) and mum doesn’t talk about it; let’s pretend it never happened (compartmentalization, invalidation, blame shifting and gas lighting). Your parents displayed an absolute lack of emotional empathy for you, their very own dear child.

      That was Hellish and I am sorry for what was done to you.

      1. Renarde says:


        Interesting observations. I think I’m just scratching my head a bit. Well, this is my interpretation on your words, is that how can two narcs live together without them either brutally colliding or just going their own separate ways.

        WAF parents appear to be have been together a long time. I utterly agree on WAF’s mothers’ behaviour. Huge red flags in of themselves but in a relationship that’s so long standing?

        1. WokeAF says:

          What, what? I missed how my parents came into this

          1. Renarde says:

            WAF whoops!!! My bad. I must admit that I did wonder vaguely if I had the right name there!

            I’ve had a lot on my mind at the moment.

        2. K says:

          She could be CoD or it could be two different schools of N. Some narcissistic relationships can stay together for a long time, think: Hill and Bill Clinton. Facade may be a compelling reason to stay together in certain situations.

          Her behavior was suspect and directed me towards the disorder. It’s indicative but not determinant.

          1. Renarde says:


            I see. Its fascinating in itself.

            One of the first books I read on NPD talks about picking up ‘Narcassitic ticks’. I think this then erroneously leads people into thinking you can ‘pick up narcissism’.

            In this case, could that be it?

          2. K says:

            HG has explained that an individual doesn’t pick up narcissistic ticks/fleas. GPD and LOCE are the key factors in the creation of NPD.

            In this case, I am assuming that mum may possibly be disordered based on her behaviour in the comments. The evidence is compelling but not determinant.

          3. Renarde says:


            Ahh I see. Yeah, that has made me think.

            So perhaps some kind of disordered empath then?

          4. K says:

            Yes, the comments do make us think. I strongly suspect narcissist, however, she could possibly be a CoD or I could be completely wrong and she’s a standard empath. I doubt she’s a normal.

          5. Renarde says:


            I doubt that too. Theres too much going on there.

          6. K says:

            There too many Red Flags to overlook.

          7. Renarde says:


            That’s a shame. Awful.

          8. Twilight says:

            Hello K

            As you know I rarely speak of my past. I would lean to CoD.
            I don’t have time to go I to detail, I will be back tomorrow when I do.

            I didn’t realize how much I miss this place and all of you until this morning.

          9. K says:

            Hello Twilight
            I have missed you, as well. How are you doing?

            CoD is definitely a possibility. Based on the comments, mum presents as a narcissist so I was leaning in that direction.

          10. Twilight says:

            Hello K

            I am still kicking it. Been dating which has been separating the wheat from the chaff. I started speaking to a man whom began FaceTiming me which I enjoy. We haven’t met in person yet so actually seeing him while talking is awesome. I am enjoying the slow and get to know each other.

            I did notice the comments and many of my own memories of my mother and sadly how I was for a time in my marriage was triggered.
            As you know I am not a narcissist some of my behaviors are narcissistic.

            Well back to work for me, I am ready to just be taken out at the moment date or sniper I don’t care which it has been a long stressful week.

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Hi Twilight. Good to hear from you an that you are well.

          12. Twilight says:

            Hello NarcAngel

            How are you? I am and looking forward to seeing what develops between myself and a man who has capture me with his eyes.

          13. K says:

            Hi Twilight
            Good for you! It sounds promising, just keep your eyes open for signs of the dreaded NPD. The comments can be triggering and can remind us of very unpleasant memories from our past, which can bring out our narcissistic traits. Sometimes, I get very angry when I read about the abuse that the bloggers have endured and I have to take a step back and pause.

            Hopefully, work will be less stressful for you this week.

      2. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hello K 🤗

        Thank you for everything you said.

        I believed it was my fault for many years after I left and then I just stopped thinking about any of it anymore. It was a nightmare at the time and for many years afterwards. I found that as soon as I completely cut them out of my life, I felt happy and free.

        It was a relief to find this site and the copious amount of information here.

        I have early memories of mum being a really sweet lady. She absolutely changed along the way and became cruel too, but in a different way. She never hit me. But she wasn’t there for me either. Always told me I was carrying on or to just get over it. I would have loved to get over it, except for the fact that I was the one being hit and tormented every day. I seemed to be dad’s favourite target.

        My other siblings always just cuddled her and cried with her and felt sorry for her. I used to too. But at a certain age, the injustice of it all bothered me and I held her to account. I would beg and plead for her to leave him because we were to young to go alone and we needed her to get us out. She hated me for it. And the siblings that coddled her through it all, turned on me when she did and I was just labelled as the ‘black sheep” “the problem” “her” “evil” “monster”. They collectively shut me out. It hurt at the time because I really believed that there must be something very wrong with me, since they all saw it a different way than I did.

        I never fit.

        I think what happened to me with my lover narc, set me on a path to understand all the endless confusion and when I found out, the flood gates poured open to an entire history that I could never understand before.

        I never related Narcissism to my family straight away, because lover narc was romantic and wickedly clever and my family were twisted and violent, so it was strange for me when the penny dropped and I realised they were one and the same.

        But what I can embrace now, is that I AM NOT CRAZY.

        Everything we go through gives us the tools we need for later and I can be happy about that!

        It’s been a hard road but I have the word now. And with that, I have found all of you and that’s a massive thing, that I didn’t have before.

        I am not alone. None of us are, and that gives me a sense of peace.

        What doesn’t kill us…


        1. K says:

          You are welcome Soon to be sparkling!
          It appears that you were the family scapegoat. When children are little, they are easier to manipulate but, as they grow and mature, they start to see things as they really are. It looks like your empathic traits of justice and truth seeking presented, as you matured, and you wanted to hold your mother to account.

          Your realities clashed and she hated you for it (I see: Challenge Fuel). Let’s assume she’s a narcissist. You are begging and pleading (fuel) but she needs to assert superiority and put down your challenge. You are a secondary source so you received a Corrective Devaluation (CD).

          She used Pity Plays and Triangulation to isolate you from your siblings and shut you out. You’ve been labelled: black sheep, evil, her, the problem and monster (that’s a lot of labelling). You saw it differently from them (you were invalidated and that’s gas lighting). Your self-doubt came into play because your mother blame shifted her behaviour onto you, which caused you to think there was something very wrong with you. Nothing was her fault; it was all you (projection, gas lighting).

          You never fit because you are not a narcissist and the silver lining in your romantic entanglement is the realization that YOU are NOT crazy.

          You are not alone anymore and what doesn’t kill us, sometimes, will kick our ass, but we get back up and dust ourselves off and carry on. Peace.


          1. Renarde says:


            Well. Frankly. I could face written that 🤣🤣🤣!

            Very very good words! Especially the black sheep concept. Its tragic how familys cast out their own for the sake of facade. But hey, we’re all here. We validate each other.

          2. K says:

            Thank you Renarde
            Yes, we all validate each other here. It’s one of the few places where you can get validation. It’s all about The Prime Aims and somebody’s got to take the fall for mum so she can remain whiter than white.

          3. Renarde says:

            Hey K

            Yes mums. Been thinking about that today. I’ve let something go. For good. I so wanted to believe it was different. But it wasnt. Have cried. It’s at least now over. It’s not that I wont allow myself to be fooled. I simply cannot be fooled. You finally RIP back the curtain. In doing so you tear it down and it can never be put up again.

            That’s a powerful place to be in as it’s a place that brings relief and not anxiety. If that makes sense?

            Thanks for your support, K. xoxo 💛

          4. K says:

            You are welcome Renarde
            Good for you. You looked at the situation (with mum) logically. It is what it is so you accepted it, you processed the emotion (sadness) and cried. Then you put it in its place and let it go.

            It makes perfect sense; you are in control now, not your mum and that helps alleviate anxiety and uncertainty. The power really does lie within you.

            We are here for each other, Renarde. Xoxox

          5. Renarde says:

            Dear K

            We are indeed here for each other. X

            I do thank you for your words. It’s a bit like at the moment, I’ve stepped back into that place I was as a frightened 5 year old. Ma could turn quicker than a dime. It was astonishing how little control over her anger she had. She was ready with slaps. Or pull my pigtails, or put me in inappropriate clothing. Not listen to me. Rubbish me. Just be downright uncaring under the mantle of ‘Shes just Ren. Just like her father’

            I’d started talking to myself. She used to listen outside the door at night. And come in and hit me if I was talking about her.

            Yet, she could be kind. Giving. But it was just the facade. Wanted a ‘show home’ worried what the neighbour’s would say. All facade. Shes far more generous with money that PN was. He was a great gift recycler.

            Hell, my brother collapsed four times this Christmas. It was only when he fell down the stairs on the fourth time that she called the ambulance.

            Her sister died recently. My Godmother. Now as a fully functioning and weaponised Empath I recognised that just like my brothers head injury, she was playing the empathy-lite program. So so obvious that she did not feel a thing. Just words.

            That house is now something out of peoples worst nightmares. Three narcs. THREE!!! Jesus.

            One is aware. One is as dumb as a bag of rocks. I think the other is aware but I vacillate on him.

            I’m now in full NC and I will be reviewing that again tonight. There are always chinks.

            When I was 5 ish. I tried to do two things. I was repeatedly trying to run away from home. The second is that I would pray to Jesus and God that my real Mum and Dad would find me.

            Maybe they will? I hope so.

            Thank you.


          6. K says:

            Dear Renarde

            We are indeed. Xo

            Keep working through your childhood memories, eventually, you will be able to put them to rest. Although very difficult, the more you do it, the easier it becomes. It looks like your mother blew hot and cold. it’s very normal for children to talk to themselves but it looks like your mother perceived it as challenge fuel and a few well placed slaps elicited the necessary fuel and put down your rebellion so all was well in NarcLand.

            Christmas with your family sounds festive! An individual could be on the floor gasping for breath and a narcissist wouldn’t call an ambulance. It would be prudent for you to maintain NC. Your family will just bring you heartache and aggravation and spike your ET.

            I tired to run away, too, and I would pray but it didn’t work. It would’ve been nice to have ‘real parents’.

            You are welcome.


          7. Renarde says:

            Dear K

            Apologies for the late response. Your words mean a lot x

            I know I joke about NC but in this case, the NC has to stand. Probably forever. You are so correct. I have massive residual ET concerning her in a way that is utterly absent with the other two males. I would always be vulnerable to a pity play there.

            I like how you’ve said Rebellion! Proto-Ren there! I am now The Renarde Resistance so thats very apt!

            I’ve seen therapists before. Three. Only one was any good. A fellow kink woman. She was bloody brilliant. Was assertive. I need that. I cannot have a very empie empath as a counsellor. Not that I dont respect them because I do. But its clear sometimes when I speak they dont grasp what I’m saying. Some see glimpses of it and can understand to a degree but when I was seeing that one, well, I just couldn’t get across to her what was happening. How it made me feel, yes. But isnt that really then just muddling around in a symptom and not the cause?

            I think that’s put me off any kind of therapy. The ONLY therapy that made ANY difference was finally understanding the Prime Aims. It wasnt about how ‘bad’ a person I perceived I was (or why would I be treated this way?). It was about my Fuel. My Energy. That was probably the most pivotal point in my life.

            The rest was then learning the Field itself. Education. And it will become a taught subject. It is already a Field.

            HG is actually in my view, a Philosopher. I find it incredibly ironic actually, that the one key gift that ascribes us as Empaths, the ability to listen and therefore to become Counsellors would ultimately turn asunder if it was revealed that pretty much every practicing Counsellor has not understand the fundemental tenets. The Prime Aims, which drive all DA and DV. Most of their business.

            To have it under the remit of Academia absolutely needs to happen. But would Society be prepared to pay the price? That one keeps me up at night.

            Even just as an aside, when people tumble to the fact that if their mum is a narc then she can never love you. What would be the impact of that alone? To Empaths?

            Further to this, as a weaponised Empath of very nearly two years, if even I can display such ET despite everything I have read or been told, what hope us there for someone 6 months in?

            Gah! Me mum. Oh what is she? Victim cadre I think? Sure does have CE but not enough to draw the facade veil. She can misstep but not to the extent it draws untoward attention. That’s quite bizarre. Do you understand what I mean?

            Either Upper Lesser or very very low Middle. Either way, shes ‘cusping’.

            Oh dear. There there. Never mind.

            Again, thank you very much for your support. That someone just ‘gets it’, is amazing.


          8. HG Tudor says:

            It would appear I need to grow a beard to stroke, smoke strong French cigarettes and wear glasses then!

          9. Renarde says:

            I’m trying to think of a suitable tobacco related product. Gauilloises? Is that right? Or has my SP caught be asunder.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Those are the requisite ones.

          11. Renarde says:

            Ha ha! Can I not tempt you with a Sobraine?

          12. Renarde says:

            And might I just add that the usage of the word ‘requisite’ was superlative!

            Almost as good as ‘mignetting’. But that’s an entirely different narrative…

          13. K says:

            Dear Renarde

            No worries and no apology needed. This is a low stress blog. x

            Keep up the NC and the more you read, the more you will get your ET under control and you won’t fall for the pity plays.

            An empie empath as a counsellor would not be very effective. The best therapy is the brutal truth, not useless sugar coated platitudes. Once you understand the Prime Aims, it all makes sense and this should be taught to all counsellors. Society and empaths can suck it up because people need to be educated regardless of the effect.

            Your mother could be a LMRN, however, if she was physically abusive, possibly a ULN and they all play the Victim Card so she may not necessarily be the Victim Cadre.

            You are welcome Renarde; I ‘get it’ and you will find all your support here.

          14. Renarde says:

            Dear K

            It is indeed low stress! Its brilliant here! X

            You raise an intriguing notion about the education of Counsellors. It’s one that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. How to get the message across. Effectively.

            I think it is getting out there. But slowly. Its not yet at that point where you will see exponential growth. But where exactly is the tipping point and how do we get there? And also, what happens when we do? How will society handle it? To know NPD is rampant. A large part of society will not be able to cope with the information. They will fold back on themselves. They will do anything and everything to not face the truth that their mun/dad/partner/child is incapable of love. People may well have to go through complete psychological breakdowns before they can reach their ‘zen’.

            Maybe my case is extreme as I’ve been mauled by two of the worst. I just dont know.

            All that being said. It’s no life really to be fed a false construct of how reality is. That’s not being free, is it?

            To ma. Intresting that we are of the same mind on her. Yes, she was physical. And for a period when I was 5/6, it was happening daily. Slaps, scratching, pulling my hair etc. I think UL. The thought of my mum being a somatic is seriously making me feel queasy, K!

            She could be. I’ll say no more.


          15. K says:

            Honestly, I have no idea how to get the message across effectively to professionals. Many people don’t seem interested in listening or understanding. The school psychologist at my daughter’s school is an idiot (I think she is an Apath/normal). She told me that she is uncomfortable talking about child abuse?! WTF, then why become a school psychologist?

            Rather than be proactive, schools waste time implementing plans on how to deal with active shooters instead of acknowledging that students are disordered and dealing with them before they kill their classmates. It’s mind boggling. It’s common sense and logic to prevent tragedy but they don’t see it that way.

            To hell with psychological breakdowns, NPD is a serious disorder and people need to get their shit together and deal with it.

            Your mom definitely sounds like a ULN. Lessers aren’t always the smartest so she was most likely somatic. In their youth, lessers can be good looking before drugs, overeating, smoking and alcohol catch up with them.

          16. Renarde says:

            Dear K

            I’m calling it ‘the perception deception’. Society simply DOES NOT SEE. Over and over again. Your comment on the child psychologist is frankly bizarre. I’m not sure how they can be in post, frankly.

            I’m not disagreeing with you on NPD. Not at all. Do you fire it like ripping off the plaster? Short, sharp shock? Honestly, I’m all at sea on this one.

            I just dont want people to suffer unnecessarily.

            To Ma (and no, she doesn’t get being crowned MN, fucking loser). Yup. I’ve been thinking about the Soms today. She probably was. So finally a ULSN.

            Jesus fucking christ. I’m ashamed.

            What a fucking pedigree.

          17. K says:

            ‘the perception deception’ or Rose Colored Glasses. Society needs to wake up and figure it out because children, men and women are being abused and education is paramount.

            To be very clear, I do not think you are disagreeing with me re: NPD (but, if you did, that would be ok; you are allowed to disagree). I think brutal honesty is the best way forward. We don’t have time to pussyfoot around the issue. Children are being badly abused.

            I don’t want people to suffer unnecessarily either but we can’t sugarcoat the truth.

            Don’t be ashamed; I grew up with LLNs.

          18. Renarde says:

            Dear K

            The Rose Coloured glasses! Precisely so! I bloody need to write that one.!

            When I was writing that response, it did cross my mind that you might think I’m disagreeing with you. I’m not. So thank you for that.

            I also agree with the brutal. I’m here to provide the counterpoint. How do we achieve it? Ok so why do I agree with brutal? This just in. A reply to me today. I say simply, clearly that Grey Rock does not work.

            “Renarde, you’re being very aggressive. What works for one person may not work for another. You haven’t actually tried grey rock so you can’t say it doesn’t work but it may not work for you but it may work for
            Others. No need to bring nastiness on what is supposed to be a supportive thread.”

            Needless to say, I was not nasty or agressive. I said Grey Rock does not work. Or alternatively I’d just provided challenge fuel to a narc. Prolly that.

            Thats what I and others are up against.

            Now obviously I didnt give a damn. I’m more worried about how I get the point across. But by gum, you need a thick skin to be in this gig! Good job I have it, eh? I’ll post the link that HG did the other day on GR. Who knows, another female may fall in love with his voice!

            Jeez, Lessers. Feel ya pain.

            God they are awful! At least PN gave me cameras and telescopes!

            Oh by the way, I’ve finally understood why PN confessed to his multiple affairs last year and it’s so clever!

            The G ex had spotted I’d come online. So he persuaded me to visit him. I did. With ma. At one point he sees the look in my eye and he understands that I’m aware. That was a moment.

            Its after that he confesses. He did it not for fuel but he does gain that. He confessed to stop me telling mum what I suspected.

            Now that is funny. So the ex used me as a weapon. That’s too funny. Or maybe a message in a bottle. Beware, she knows!

            What a prat! He exposed part of his matrix and he didnt need to. Because I’d already had that ethical descion down. I knew at the xmas before what hed been up to. Thanks to HG. I’d already decided to keep quiet. No proof.

            So availed himself for no purpose. Now the knowledge of his infidelities is in the domain. Intresting to see when a G will turn. Fascinating!

            Its like a fox coming across another fox in the hen house. The first fox kills all the hens. Why? Just to stop the second having them. The second fox says, ‘But Daddy, I’m just here to see you!’

            Love our chats, K!

          19. K says:

            Dear Renarde

            You are welcome and you are entitled to disagree with me anytime. We bounce thoughts and ideas off of each other to learn and that doesn’t always mean we agree.

            How do we achieve it? We keep spreading the word about narcsite and let the articles and comments speak for themselves.

            I disagree with the accusations made against you in the reply and you are probably correct: challenge fuel. There is significant pushback and it can be very disheartening. Post the link and let the article work its magic.

            Be careful, the G ex may have an ulterior motive for his confession. Exactly, The Fox killed all the hens for fuel and control.

            Ha ha ha…our chats are fun, Renarde!

          20. Renarde says:


            More on the GR thread. I started to get annoyed as someone mentioned BPD. Its largely not real I say.

            Yes it is! Some trill.

            No it’s not. Its used by people who have NPD hiding behind it. Much like some do with ASD. (Not you HG. Cos you’re obviously saying both. Sorry to hear the BTW)

            A woman comes on and says, yes they do. My daughter does it. She does gave NPD but us, yup, hiding it.

            Uses it like a badge of honour, mum says. Seriously doesn’t surprise me.

            I had this convo before. I’m amazed how people cling to it. Personally, I would very strongly resist this as a diagnosis. It’s not a badge of honour.

            That does make you wonder if the ones that cling the hardest are unaware Narcs. So it could have a use after all.

          21. K says:


            Agreed. In many cases, narcissists are misdiagnosed as BPD and then the condition is used to blame shift their behavior and garner pity/sympathy (fuel). Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSBP) is another one that should be looked at, as well.

            it’s very useful. Narcissists love to talk about their health issues because it helps them acquire The Prime Aims.

          22. Renarde says:


            And….it was the overeating. Not that shes ever been properly obese. But rather than use diet and exercise she would use….am shuddering…girdles.

            I’m veggie now (eat fish) but a highly amusing conversation happened once. I was veggie before. Mum didn’t take well to this. I rang up with news.

            PN, ‘Rens got some news!’. ‘Oh, is she not vegetarian any more?’.

            ‘No Mum. I’m pregnant’

            ‘Oh love, that’s good too’.

            I mean, really!

          23. K says:

            Nothing like a girdle to squeeze it all together. My mother would have needed several girdles.

            Of course she didn’t take well to you becoming a veggie because it was an opportunity for her to exert control and draw negative fuel by triangulating and belittling your life choices at that moment.

            Her lack of enthusiasm re: your pregnancy was also done to draw negative fuel. No surprise there!

          24. Renarde says:


            I’m now back in my parental home. I’m little. I can see all the girdles on the maiden. Nicely ironed.

            Rather bizarrely as I’m typing this, the Specials ‘Ghost Town’ has started to play.

            Who says the Universe doesnt have a sense of humour?

            I cant stop laughing!

          25. Renarde says:


            Such a strange thing has happened!

            Just caught two incidences of people directly quoting me. But not tagging me. How fascinating!

            That’s new!

          26. Renarde says:

            Dear K

            Have had an exhausting evening. I did post the Grey Rock link. What I essentially recieved back was that well HG has NPD and anyway using GR works against people who have BPD.

            It’s really quite amazing how middles get so close to awareness but never quite get there. Reject! Reject! I may have mentioned that BPD doesnt exist!

            However, I did get a shout out on my own blog. Sweet!

            But then a bad happened. A woman who I had considered a close friend. She is a meme queen. But her rank hypocrisy. My stars!

            Shes barely bothered with me. She is my daughters godmother. This excuse for a human posted a meme of a battered door. Drawing attention to DV. Right, you little middling narc cunt.

            She got it I’m afraid. Awaiting on her response. I’m seriously PMSL as I know my ex provoked her husband which resulted in a black eye on him.

            Yes dear, I totes believed your story that the ‘spanner’ slipped. Fair play, he got you a good un. That’s the benefit of a public school education. Good on him I say.

            Prolly shouldn’t have nuked her but I cannot stand her hypocrisy for one iota of a second longer. And I had juggled with this for months.

            Anyway, I’m listening to Tchaikovsky. He puts it all to rights I find x

          27. K says:

            Dear Renarde

            Well, the hard of understanding would respond that way, no surprise there. I suspect that BPD is misunderstood and often misdiagnosed. Focus on the shout out on your blog and ignore the meme; it’s not worth your time and energy. Enjoy the Tchaikovsky! X

          28. njfilly says:

            Hi K,

            I have a question for you on another comment that you made but there was no ‘reply’ button with it.

            You stated ‘GPD and LOCE are the key factors in the creation of NPD’. Can you please define GPD and LOCE for me?

            Thank you again.

          29. HG Tudor says:

            Read To Cope Is To Control, it is in there. Or the Acronyms section, it is in there also.

        2. Renarde says:


          Well done on your positive mental attitude in the face of such horrible ness.



          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Thank you Renarde! 🤗

            We empathetic folk are sure built of tough stuff!


        3. anm says:

          Soon to be sparkling,
          Thank you for sharing your memories with us. I value what you shared.

          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hello anm 🤗

            You’re so welcome.


      3. NarcAngel says:

        I agree with you about the red flags on Mom. Further inspection re: narc detector might prove useful in either ruling it out or make things clearer, but that is up to the individual and they have to be ready to accept the possible outcome.

        1. K says:

          Agreed. In Soon to be sparkling!’s comment to Renarde, there’s significant evidence of triangulation and I think she should avoid her mother altogether. It doesn’t look good at all.

          1. Renarde says:

            Agreed NA and K, Soon needs to.

            You there Soon? How are you feeling today?

          2. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hello Renarde 🤗

            Sorry! I only seem to get alerts for comments that have been replied to, to me directly. I missed all the interaction here with you and K.

            I write too much (spam! 😉) and then I can’t remember which article I was chatting away in to re visit. It’d be great if there was an option to ‘tag’ people here without a direct reply so we never miss anything.

            I’ve been great though, thank you!

            I’ve had some missed calls from withheld numbers (which I never get) and it’s brought my narc to the forefront a bit. It’s probably nothing, but you know how we tend to over think little anomalies after a narcs presence. 😉

            I’m feeling mainly like “I got this!”.

            We got this!

          3. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hello HG, er… 🤗! Yeah, you get one too!

            Is there a way that we can get an alert if our nicknames are stated, so that we don’t accidentally miss comments made to us or mentioning us?

    5. FYC says:

      Dear Sparkling (you already are), I barely know what to say after reading your post through tears. I cannot imagine your amazing strength to survive so much horrific abuse. My heart goes out to you and I hope you find much healing here. Your patrinarc (he does not deserve to be called father) is a vicious, pathetic bully. An epsilon semi moron to borrow an HG phrase. Thankfully you are away from both of those brutally toxic people. You deserve/d so much more. I hope you find peace, joy and love in your future. Sending you unconditional love and hugs.

      Dear NA, There are not enough words. It makes me sick what you had to endure. I am so very impressed with your spirit. I’ll withhold the hugs cuz you don’t like them, but you get my unconditional love and respect. Thank you for all you do here.

      Twilight, Good to see you back. I hope all is well. Looking forward to your insights. I cannot imagine that woman being an empath–where is the empathy? I could understand her being very, very damaged and non-functional, but such a stunning lack of protection and empathy is hard to fathom. Both are brutally toxic.

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hello FYC. 🤗

        Thank you for caring! I adore love and cuddles so thankyou for that! I can imagine that there is real warmth in your hugs! If I could, I would hug the hell out of you right back!

        Thankfully they are behind me! I was not built to be caged or changed.


        1. FYC says:

          Thanks for the hug, Sparkling, I could feel it across the miles. You certainly were not created to be caged or be anything less than you uniquely are. Well done.

          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hello FYC 🤗

            Thank you! The same goes for all of us! Our lights burn bright!

    6. WiserNow says:

      Soon to be Sparkling! (…by the way, you already do sparkle 😊)

      Your comment and the description of your childhood is very moving and I am sorry you lived those experiences. No child should go through that, and your parents’ behaviour is unforgivable.

      What stands out in your comment for me is your quiet confidence and the way you calmly and eloquently expressed what are very painful, traumatic memories. It makes me marvel at your resilience and inner strength. You make me think of the saying that diamonds are made under pressure.

      You were the scapegoat in your family which is a difficult role to have. The family casts all the blame onto the scapegoat and makes that person out to be the faulty one or the bad one. As a child with that role cast on you, it is extremely confusing and emotionally difficult and it affects your thinking for a long time. Also, the roles people have in the family don’t change, so the hurtful way your mother plays favorites between you and your siblings is likely to continue. You definitely don’t need to volunteer to be hurt or disrespected like that.

      None of it is your fault and there is nothing you could have done to make it different. You were a child and deserved love, care and protection. You are not responsible now for changing your family members in the present day either. You have enough to deal with in recovering from your own past and making a contented life for yourself after everything that happened.

      I’m happy for you that you found your way here. You are not alone. I hope you continue to read and write here and feel that you are with people who can relate 😊❤

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hello WiserNow 🤗

        Thank you, so much for your comments.

        Isn’t it amazing how perfect strangers can feel and offer care for one another? Even when this world is cruel, there is always kindness!

        Honestly though, it was so long ago and apart from my need for Narcissists, I don’t feel any sadness over any of it anymore. When I wrote what I did, I felt some residue but it’s not with me anymore. It’s just memories.

      2. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Oops! I pressed send 😉.

        In hindsight though, it made me who I am and if not for the past, who might I be now?

        I understand that we can’t organically be who we are, without what made us so.

        It’s lovely what you wrote of diamonds! It went straight to my heart! I agree and think that all empaths are diamonds and I’m lucky to have found others! Though I’m deeply sorry that we are all here for the same sad reasons.

        But maybe it’s not so sad afterall. It was sad before we all knew what we are, what narcs are. But now we know. We are learning everyday and that’s a wonderful thing even if the precursor was unpleasant.

        Yes, none of us can change our families or our histories but we can change the way we view our past and our present and we can choose to see the silver linings and the bright side in everything we do!

        We empaths are good at seeing the best in everything! It’s what makes us all so special.

        We are lucky to have this place and each other. ❤️

        I will always keep reading here as it has been priceless and I can’t express how much it has helped me see my past clearly. Writing though, can be difficult as there is just so much. To be honest, I don’t even know where to start with it all. I have an entire life of once overwhelming insanity now clear to me as crystal and it’s as intimidating, as it is enlightening. I feel like a Pandora’s box.

        I know it’s the same for all of us. That we are all connected through the same tragedies. But we’re also all connected through the same curiosity, our need to understand and learn. We all have so much in common, a group of perfect strangers, here because an Ultra Narcissist made this site. The whole concept still astounds me.

        I’m happy to be here and I appreciate every kind person here!

        So thank you WiserNow, it’s people like you who keep reminding me how much good is still out there! How come we attract narcs like bees to honey, but we rarely find each other in real life?


        1. WokeAF says:

          I agree , no regrets!
          It might’ve been miserable times but knowing human psychology that most ppl don’t know gives me a thrill. It’s like life’s a game again, and I’m like a detective for the aliens called Narcs

          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            Hello WokeAF 🤗

            Cheers to that!

            It’s interesting that how once a simple interaction with someone was just that! But now, you can see red flags. Watching and listening and spotting things that we would have missed before!

        2. WiserNow says:

          You’re very welcome Soon To Be Sparkling! Yes, I agree that we are lucky to have this place and to share our experiences and learn from each other.

          All the best to you Soon To Be Sparkling! 😘😘

          1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

            All the best to you too, WiserNow!


  9. mollyb5 says:

    You don’t want a lee the lesser —-unless you like to be spit on when he has a big wad of chewing tobacco in his mouth .

  10. kaydiva3 says:

    HG, do Lessers ever have tantrums that include whining and crying rather than violence? Or is that typically a Mid-Range tactic?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is more usually seen with a Mid Range Narcissist, but you can see it with a Middle Lesser.

  11. Cyn says:

    My ex husband. Except he didn’t hit me. Just walls, microwaves, whatever else was around. I always wondered how he seemed to forget all his terrorism not long after so never an apology. Even 6 years post divorce the ongoing abusive text attacks (no longer happening since I implemented the Assistance Package tools) are forgotten shortly after. Doesn’t seem to understand why we can’t be coparent friends lol. He is currently peaceful and always trying to send manipulative kind gestures through our son which are ignored. I take this to mean things are going well in his fuel matrix. I hate to say it but I am relieved for the time being, sorry for her but glad it’s not me anymore.

  12. Pati says:

    Oh dear talk about heated fury! They do things out of instinct and forget about it later. Then wham bam thank you mann. Great analogie on this one HG.!

  13. Lorelei says:

    Gawd I want one in my stocking for Christmas!!

    1. FoolMe1Time says:

      Fuck that!! Oh no you don’t!! Hahaha

      1. Lorelei says:

        HG incorrectly states that Lee will be in his den. Lee wouldn’t have a den! It’s too fancy a concept. His 10’ x 12’ bedroom in his mom’s basement is all Lee has. With posters. Posters of 90’s Pamela Anderson.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That’s a den.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Until Lee writes his own checks to pay his own bills it’s a bedroom in his mom’s basement.

          2. FoolMe1Time says:

            Thank you HG! Sometimes she can be quite draining to me. Lol

          3. Lorelei says:

            Draining draining draining

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            Hahaha! Not really! 🥰

        2. FoolMe1Time says:

          Oh Lorelei! You are to much! Hahaha 🥰💞

          1. Lorelei says:

            Foolme—my daughter said she wants a step dad and is signing me up for an online dating site and I immediately thought, “Who needs that? I can get myself a Lee pretty easily!”

          2. FoolMe1Time says:

            Ok there was your opening to tell her how bad dating sites are and to gently talk about what type of people you might find on them. No freakin Lee! 🤦🏼‍♀️

          3. Lorelei says:

            Yes correct—I was very tired and missed this! I think she’s part silly/part fishing for a response. It’s actually unfortunate she would think of this to even mention it—that it seems like the ultimate destination in life. Shacking up.

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            Oh yes you will definitely have your hands full! 💞

          5. Lorelei says:

            Just another week of the mass piece of the chaos unless there is some major catastrophe which of course there will be and it will be expensive.

        3. MB says:

          And you want that for Christmas Lorelei?!? Dream bigger girlfriend! Lee is not a gift you want.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Lee is honest about who he is. 💕

          2. Pati says:

            He only would be good at a Greek wedding he can smash all the plates he wants! I would say OPA!

          3. Lorelei says:

            Pati—If he gets mad enough he even smashes his Xbox!

          4. Pati says:

            Oh dear! He would be good at renovations, he can tear down walls then lol ! Just give him a hammer . Lol

          5. mollyb5 says:

            Pati! They are good at demolitions and renovations to a point ..but the access to lots of tools such as chippers or friends that have chippers ..and friends that do concrete work ( bottom of ocean mafia ) and chainsaws . They are hard on tools don’t clean them so …they can get caught in their crimes. Just don’t let them see your home and all the nice things you have …they will want to move in and use you. 🙁 aaah

          6. Pati says:

            Oh I know Mollyb5,I am usually home if someone is working on my place. Plus I have my husband there to make sure everything goes smooth. Hes paranoid but you need to careful with people anyhow.

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