Poll : “Dick Pics” – Your Experience




The advent of sending pictures by mobile telephone and then social media resulted in a proliferation of one particular phenomenon, the “dick pic”. Whether it is an in your face, up close and throbbing , picture of an erect male member or a more relaxed pose demonstrating this fellow is a shower and may also be a grower, there is evidence of the sending of such pictures all over the internet.

And it is not just the men.

There are plenty of women who have sent pictures of themselves naked, either with a hand cupped coquettishly over themselves providing a sneak of what lies underneath, a confident pose in front of a mirror, a shot from behind with skirt hitched up or a no holds barred legs apart shot.

The sending of such pictures and the behaviour of the recipient provide interesting insights into the dynamic of narcissist and victim.

This poll is seeking information about your own experiences and will be the basis of a future article concerning this behaviour within the narcissistic dynamic.

Please see the options below and you may answer as many as are applicable.

Do expand with your observations in the comments section.

Thank you for participating.

Your Experience Concerning "Dick Pics"

View Results

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1,050 thoughts on “Poll : “Dick Pics” – Your Experience

  1. Kim e says:

    HG….I’ll do the gags thanks.

    Might not want to say that on this thread…..just saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Very funny.

    2. NotMe! says:


  2. Kim e says:

    SMH. I see you have made a new friend. Nice that you are getting spelling lessons also. But I must say I find them to be quite rood….. sorry I mean *rude

    1. SMH says:

      lol Kim e – I haven’t checked yet. Even HG occasionally misspells things!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No I done.

        1. SMH says:

          Sher you done.

        2. Violetta says:

          Yow well endite. Wherefor sholde ony wight sey oder? Ther ys namoore to seyn.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I’ll do the gags thanks.

    2. SMH says:

      Kim e, I didn’t make any spelling mistakes and I do not understand Mr. Z’s response. Grammatical error? Wrong identity label? Oh well!

      1. zielum says:

        I, and any other transgender person I’ve known, would prefer not to be called “transgendered”. If that’s alright with you. If a transgender person you know was okay with it, that’s great, but it just doesn’t work for the majority of us.

        1. SMH says:

          OK millennial! (jk) My apologies for using the wrong label, Zielum. Is ‘trans’ okay? (Serious question.)

          1. zielum says:

            Lol. Yeah, “trans” is great, as long as it’s always a descriptor and not a noun. I.e, we’re transgender people, not “transgenders”.

            You’ll find most trans people are really welcoming of any effort to understand. The conservative crowd will insist we’re all a bunch of snowflakes who must be catered to, but honestly, we just want a few simple gestures of respect as human beings. We can’t really help the way we are, and the end goal is really to live in harmony with cis people, rather than ending up on the news all the time for the latest clash (lawsuits, harassment, murder).

            As with any activism, the younger crowd (mostly students) are the most insistently vocal over rights. They don’t always have a lot of real-world, big-picture perspective, and I think that’s why the conservative crowd likes to latch onto what they’re saying. Easier targets.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, i identify as cisgender but also as sexually fluid and I have dated a person who identified as transgender or gender non-conforming. In this person’s particular case,I tried as much as possible to about the use of pronouns. When asked, my ex answered not feeling particularly represented with either masculine or feminine pronouns. Some people used feminine and some used masculine, I tried to use the proper name instead which of course would sound repetitive on certain occasions but I preferred that to making assumptions about which pronoun would better fit. In general it’s a question of respecting the individual, not so much of social norms. That’s why I agree with you that one person can’t speak for the whole community. I hate when people make generalizations about bisexuals for instance. Being inclusive is essential and unfortunately we are too far from achieving that goal but the interest shown in the blog proves that people are willing to learn and correct past social mistakes.

          3. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Yep, best way to know is to ask, and then just try your best.

            I’ve had the range of it–
            from my parents, who didn’t bother even trying to use the correct pronouns at a restaurant, and then deploying guilt-inducing pity plays when I carefully brought it up;
            to the friends who make one tiny misgendering mistake and then spend un *uncomfortably* long time apologizing profusely.

            Sensitivity differs with everyone but I think a lot of us just want to be treated like normal people. So like, just give it an honest effort, but if you accidentally say the wrong thing, it’s not a big deal–one short “sorry” and then course correction. It’s the intent that matters most. When someone is overly apologetic, we end up having to be the one in the comforting role and we feel really awkward. If you look up videos by trans YouTubers (Ty Turner, Chase Ross, Jamie Dodger, Stef Sanjati) this sentiment is echoed quite a bit.

            Also random thing– a female-to-male (FTM) transgender person is a “trans man”, while a male-to-female (MTF) transgender person is a “trans woman”. We’re referred to by our gender identity, not the sex we were born as. Throwing that in just cause I’ve so often seen the public at large genuinely confused about it.

            At the end of the day…we’re just humans, like anyone else. We know exactly how confusing it all is because most of us (who didn’t “figure it out” by the age of 4) went through that exact same confusion when we were trying to figure out why the hell our mind was telling us that our body is wrong. Especially earlier in transition, trans people sometimes misgender themselves lol. Shit happens–no biggie.

            It’s the intentional crap that harms.

          4. Kim e says:

            I am just going to refer to you as zielum. Title not needed……… !!! 🙂

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Excuse my typo, I obviously meant “avoid” using pronouns, not “about.”

          6. SMH says:

            Zielum, That’s cool. I will try to remember all of that (hope I don’t make any mistakes here!) Just don’t paint the rest of us as ‘conservatives.’ Many boomers, for instance, are political progressives – more progressive than a lot of Xers and millennials. They just haven’t necessarily kept up or they see identity politics as obstructionist rather than as helpful.

            I argued with and unfriended a trans-exclusionary radical feminist friend on FB awhile back. I did not understand her position at all or even that there WAS such a position until a millennial very succinctly explained it to me. So lots of things require quick thinking these days and not everyone understands because not everyone was socialized the same way, whatever their wider politics. I am sure you get tired of explaining but I also find having to identify my pronouns annoying. I just haven’t gotten used to it yet, though I do understand why it is necessary.

            I also understand the difference between sex, gender and sexual orientation so I totally get that you are a reversed Kate Borstein, right? A trans female to male attracted to men (sorry if I stated that wrongly – I am not at the moment looking at how you described yourself). I also understand that operating within a binary can be constraining, though I am pretty damned binary myself.

          7. zielum says:


            Oh I definitely didn’t mean to imply that you guys were conservatives! I was trying to convey why you might find our community on the defensive a lot. As you may have heard, the Trump admin has been gleefully knocking back trans/lgbtq protections everywhere it can, and the conservative base has nothing but applause. The Supreme Court recently heard arguments on whether people such as myself deserve to be employed or not, due to any old joe schmo employer’s “sincere religious objections”. It’s bull. They kept asking questions about what this would mean for bathroom access, as if that’s the huge glaring issue of the whole thing. So they don’t want us to be able to work, and they are loathe to provide unemployment assistence….What exactly do they want??? Oh yeah, for us to disappear…such as trying to redefine everywhere they can that sex/gender is defined at birth and can’t be changed. Lemme just grab my birth certificate every time I want to use the bathroom so I can be stopped and questioned. Ugh.

            Yeah, TERFs suck lol. But at least I can kinda see where they’re coming from, as opposed to blind religious idiocy.

            Yeah you got the label right lol gay female-to-male (ftm) transgender person. As far as binary/nonbinary….I myself am a little more nonbinary than binary, I believe–I don’t truly identify with being male or female. More of an androgyne. But I’m more masc-leaning and I much prefer to be seen as male over female, and I’m in love with the secondary sex characteristics that testosterone therapy has given me. I figure it’s hard enough getting to people to accept a binary change rather than a nonbinary one, so I’m content to leave it at that.

            I exercise as much patience as I can with explaining ad nauseum, lol, because I know that the biggest issue we face isn’t outright bigotry, but simple misunderstanding. When I was barely an adult, I remember making an argument to my aunt that no, men should not be in women’s bathrooms if you can still tell they’re men. Oh, how things have changed. I was stating an opinion on something I knew nothing about. So now I figure if I explain what the trans community is actually about, we’ll get more understanding and hopefully some allies along the way. At the end of the day, we just want to be seen as normal.

          8. nightstandsecrets says:


            Thanks for draining every bit of entertainment out of what should’ve been a fun & interesting thread.

            It sounds to me like your only real issue is that you’re incredibly immature – even for someone only in his or her 20s.

            I do hope you outgrow that since apparently you chose to bring children into the world.
            A child in modern society has it tough enough without having to raise his or her parent, too.

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Rule # 9. It goes both ways: whether you prefer fun topics, or more serious issues. Making someone feel bad for leading the thread in a different direction is not nice.

          10. zielum says:


            I find it intriguing that you believe you have ground to stand on when declaring who is and is not immature–yet you drag someone’s parenting skills into an unrelated argument and imply said skills are lacking when you have no evidence to back yourself up.

            Either you’ve never had kids and have no right to discuss parenting to begin with, or you’ve had kids and have shown your *own* immaturity in carelessly crossing boundaries that you should know better than to cross. Unless you’re so full of yourself that you believe you’ve parented perfectly.

            I really don’t give a crap if you want to call me names, whine about me sharing my political views, or be petulant that you chose to read something boring; but I do care about my parenting skills being commented on.

            This is the Internet. There is not much I can really do if you choose to continue the subject. But I am asking you here, nicely, if you could please not comment about my parenting. That is all.

          11. I find it hilarious that you seem to want to speak for the opinions of “conservatives” when you seem to know so little on the subject of conservatism or, well, pretty much anything as far as I can tell.

            And yes, I have no problem commenting on your parenting and maturity status. I’m well past double your age, considerably better educated and have a vast amount of life experience.

            Frankly, I’ve probably forgotten more stuff than you currently know.

            “Conservatives” (aka “Mature adults”) like me end up being responsible for the upbringing of children of immature people like you. That’s not fair to anyone… especially the kids.

            I didn’t even read past about the second sentence you wrote because you’ve already talked about yourself enough for me to know exactly the type of individual I’m addressing.

            My statement stands:
            Grow up.
            Get over yourself.
            Your children deserve better.

            As for anyone who dislikes me for speaking my mind: I don’t care.
            I’d rather anger all of you than to keep quiet and not speak the truth.

            Again: kids deserve better.

          12. zielum says:



            So only senior conservatives should have kids, then? So that the rest of us young libtards don’t fuck things up? Or maybe young conservatives are allowed too, just as long as they’re not liberal–God forbid they be liberal.

          13. NotMe! says:

            That seems a bit harsh to me. Z was asked to share his thoughts/story and he did so. He hasn’t described his parenting style (unless I missed it) so it seems unfair to judge him negatively.

        2. Mercy says:

          Zielum, thanks for letting us know. I actually thought about that after reading some of your comments. When you introduced yourself you stated that you are a female to male transgender, into guys, and consider yourself gay. I’m sure you can understand a little confusion for those of us who are learning. Is it labels in general that are offensive or the lable of transgender that is offensive? If not the labels how do you label yourself. I’m really curious and don’t want to offend.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Just use appliance. Covers everyone and works wonderfully for me.

          2. Mercy says:

            Haha you are so bad HG

          3. NarcAngel says:

            With appliance claimed, I was going to suggest Empaths use “Tool” for narcs, but then most tools can be useful. So that’s out. The search continues.

          4. Mercy says:

            NarcAngel, I’ll let you guys work it out. I’m just hanging around this thread waiting for dick pics to go on sale.

          5. Kim e says:

            Mercy…Imagine my surpise and glee when I saw a store for the first time called DICKS. Thiught I had died and goen to heaven
            But alas it is sporting goods……

          6. Mercy says:

            Well Kim it’s probably a good place to meet men. Just politely go up to one and ask if he could show you where the dick is. Maybe ask if he could show you how to use one. Men like to help especially when they’re experts on the subject.

          7. SMH says:

            Lol, Mercy. I am remembering your forays to the DIY store. Maybe DIY is the way to go.

          8. Mercy says:

            SMH, don’t listen to me. This is why I’m single.

          9. SMH says:

            Mercy, DIY doesn’t cost as much. Always the bright side!

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Good call, but I think you’ll find that a lot of them were half off to begin with.

          11. Mercy says:

            Sadly that’s usually the case. You never know what you’re going to get when you open the package.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha NA, you’re awesome.

          13. SMH says:

            ROTFL, HG.

          14. NotMe! says:

            How about ‘vexers’ from the word of the day?

          15. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            I greatly appreciate the desire to be sensitive around this topic <3

            So I want to start with the disclaimer that I don't speak for the entire community: I know for a fact that there are transgender people on both sides of any relevant preference (pronouns, terms, number of possible genders, etc.). What follows is a mix of my own personal preference, and what I've gleaned from the community to be the majority opinion.

            "Transgender" is used as an adjective (never a noun). Transgender person, transgender ally, transgender flag, etc. It's a shorthand for "spans across gender", or "crosses from gender to gender". The prevailing belief is that a person is born transgender; there may be some sort of hormonal imbalance when we're in the womb that causes our brains to believe we're A sex when really we're B sex. We define sex as the physical characteristics (genitalia, hormonal system, breasts/facial hair, etc), while gender is more of a social construct pertaining to how one moves about in the world (how we think of ourselves to ourselves [the brain mis-wiring from the womb], how we think of ourselves in relation to others, and how others perceive and behave towards us). There is no arguing it: Males and females treat each other differently, no matter how equality-minded they are. Just ask a trans person, who has seen both sides. The essence of that "treating them differently" is what we mean by gender vs. sex.

            The term "transsexual" is being seen more and more as a slur, although the older generations seem to be more accepting of it (since I guess it was the common term back then).

            Since we believe that being transgender is something you're born with, it's not something that happens at a given time during a person life. You can't "have been" transgender before, you won't "become" transgender some day. You either are transgender and always have been, or you are not transgender and never were. The process that's being referred to, I believe, is transition. "Transgender" is the static state of having your gender and your sex in conflict with each other (resulting in a severe discomfort called dysphoria). Transitioning is when you take steps to alleviate the dysphoria; hormone replacement therapy, sexual reassignment surgery, legal name and wardrobe change, etc. Not everyone experiences the same level of dysphoria for all parts; some may feel more distress at their body structure, or their chest, or their downstairs. For me, my biggies were the secondary sex characteristics as opposed to the primary one (penis): chest, body/facial hair, deep voice.

            Ah, pronouns…So that's completely up to the individual. I personally prefer all forms of "he", as well as the third-person singular "they" (my identity is somewhere between male and nonbinary–androgynous, masc leaning). A lot of the younger people coming up into the trans ranks are embracing the use of nontraditional pronouns such as ze, xhe, and whatever else. Personally, I feel that's a little much, but hey, whatever floats their boat. Or zher boat. From what I've seen, it's a generational thing; the older transpeople are comfortable just using he/she/they.

            What else…bathroom use? We just want to pee lol seriously, we just want to pee….I face no danger from either walking into a men's restroom "as a female", nor answering to demands for identification because of it, because I have "passing privilege". Meaning I've progressed enough in my transition to be taken as male almost every time. Same with trans women using a women's restroom. The real problem is for the trans people who are early in their transition, or are struggling through it. Cis people can tell there's something up, and that's when they wanna make a big deal about it. Have you guys seen the videos of the utter harassment trans women have been facing?….One lady was screaming about it all over the restaurant, following the poor trans woman with a phone, yelling out slurs….Another trans woman was beaten in front of restaurant employees, who stood by and did nothing….Anyways. Yeah. The country has a ways to go.

          16. NarcAngel says:

            A lot of people (especially here where we understand being misunderstood) don’t mean to offend with the different terminologies used, it’s just a lot to take in and can be quite confusing. Patience, time, and education will be required in order for people to catch up to what is accepted. It took a long time for people to go from the N word, to coloured, to Black and African American, and many would still hesitate when called on for the proper term. I would not have thought transgendered required a correction for instance, but now I do. That’s why it’s great to see exchanges like the ones you’re having here with other commenters. We all learn.
            Now if we could just sort out this other little problem…

            People call me a cunt. What do we do with that to make it more acceptable? Add an e? Any suggestions? – I don’t seem to have a community.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            Your last paragraph entertained me.


          18. zielum says:


            Lol cunty–I like!

            Personally I find the term cunt much more preferable to p—y. It makes the cuntish person in question sound strong, badass, like they say exactly what’s on their mind and don’t take any shit. Don’t mess with them. The other one has all kinds of connotation for weakness; not to mention it’s just so crass.

          19. Mercy says:

            Zielum, thank you for your response. Im still a little confused about what is socially acceptable. I think I’m understanding that different people have different preferences, it just depends who you’re talking to.

          20. Desirée says:

            It amused me how you recently described yourself as “cunty”. Didn’t know it could be an adjective. Would make a nice nickname for you:
            “Just you wait until Cunty gets here.”

            “Cunty will straighten you out like a piece of wire.”

          21. NarcAngel says:

            I advised on a previous thread long ago that I was ordering a coffee mug that read:

            I have the patience of a Saint.

            Saint Cunty McFuckoff.

            I had several requests to order additional mugs.

          22. Violetta says:


            ‘The term “transsexual” is being seen more and more as a slur, although the older generations seem to be more accepting of it (since I guess it was the common term back then).’

            I wish you well, but don’t even think about censoring Rocky Horror.

            I’m serious.

          23. NotMe! says:

            If you take a selfy on rowing boat we can call you
            C#nt on Punt?

          24. NarcAngel says:

            Well that seems appropriate. Good luck getting me in a rowboat though.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, I’ve been called a cunt twice in my life, mostly by emasculated guys with an inferiority complex. If not a community, we could make a duet!

        3. Kim e says:

          I will not call you anything except zielum.
          I just took offense to the fact that you did not take th time to explaint that to SMH and just posted the transgender.

          As we are starting over, please keep in mind that we are here FOR you….not to judge you. On this site, as far as I am concerned, you are zielum!!!!!

        4. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Zielum, per your indication in previous comments, I’ve been using “he.” If you prefer another pronoun please correct me. If we leave it to HG he would suggest to use “it”’with all of us hahaha. He’s such a nut case… (no offense, master).

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I don’t refer to anybody on here as ‘it’. I could call you something derogatory though if you like, no offence and all that.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh HG, I am very sorry. I truly was joking, continuing with the joke you made about us being appliances. I feel bad now, please accept my sincere apologies.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            No need to apologise SP. I understand your point re appliances and you are correct as to how I view people, however I don’t call individuals here ‘it’.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            No, I do need to apologize. I used a derogatory term freely although I meant it in a goofy manner, as when you say “ah, don’t be silly” or “you’re crazy, come on!” But I shouldn’t have and I’ll be careful to not take such liberties with you anymore. We are not friends and I understand it was out of place. The “it” pronoun was indeed in reference to us being objects, that’s all. If you want to send me to the dungeons I will understand (notice my attempt to finally join the exclusive club).

          5. Kim e says:

            SP…if you end up in the dungeon, bring extra hay. It is very cold there this time of year and the donkeys take up all the warm places

          6. Violetta says:

            Donkeys and hay in the Dungeon? Is there a strange family with a new baby and a bunch of weirdos barging in with things like gold, stinky incense, stinkier balms, drums, and so on?

            Ooh, that Mum’s just going to *love* ‘avin’ ‘er baby woken oop by them drums….

          7. Desirée says:

            I thought you’re just refering to the It-Girl. But if you do go to the dungeon, its kind of cozy by now. Theres sheep fur and I intend to paint the walls should it ever get to that.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Desirée, I was. I tried to combine the joke about us being appliances with the example in the article to make a joke. However, HG has not sent me to the dungeon yet, and I have the feeling I’m missing out.

          9. zielum says:

            At this point, my curiosity is getting the best of me. Is this dungeon just a fantasy place, or does something tangible happen when someone is “sent” there? Like, having their responses not pass moderation or something? The references are a confusing mix of positive and negative.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            I use it lightheartedly as a place of banishment for those who misbehave (it is akin to a friendly telling off).
            Readers have accordingly referred thereafter to it in a way so as to to expect to be sent there, thinking they are sent there (when they are not) and fantasising about what they did there when they believed they had been sent there. They similarly use it in a light hearted manner.

            If they had actually been consigned there, there would be silence.

          11. zielum says:

            O.O Good to know; thank you.

        5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear zielum,
          Thank you so much for your insights into your world
          People are still struggling with being gay, let alone anything else
          The gays I’m involved with see themselves as “normal” and find it frustrating that we straights keep referring to their gayness …. you gays, you gay people, what do your lot think, you people, your mob……it’s as though we feel they can’t think and talk “straight” talk with us so called normals My 1st step dad was gay, he was a cross dresser on weekends, “female impersonator” by night and businessman at work with suit n tie
          He had an abundance of mental issues as well as being sadistic and dangerous
          I’ve come across many lesbians, bi sexuals, and the sexually fluid ..no transgenders “personally” only a couple of shop assistants I’ve met locally
          We have friends whose friends have left their normal marriages with grown up children for same sex or transvestism
          That’s what I like about being here, always learning, new discoveries and forever growing, so thank you zielum for your continuing contribution
          As always, stay safe n take care
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    3. Liza says:

      if speling errors are a problem, i’m dead

      1. Mercy says:

        I’m with you on that liza

        1. Liza says:

          thank you Mercy, feels really good to have company in that matter.

          1. Violetta says:

            Maister Chaucer wolde sey yowr spelyng ys gode enow.

          2. Liza says:

            Ha ha , i was tempted to play along and make mistakes on purpose but then i remembered that i’v writen sycle instead of cycle, and i did it several times on the same post, so it seems that i have no need to make any effort, it is a natural talent for me ( please don’t be jealous, if you try hard some day you may reach my level).

  3. Gypsy Heart says:

    I have never sent nude pictures or directly received a dick pic from a guy. However I just met a guy through messenger. I have an out of state friend who introduced us. She met him through a dating ap. He did send her a dick pic, which she sent to me a while back as a joke. She is seeing someone else and arranged for us to start talking because she thought we were both lonely.

    At this point I don’t know what to think. We have been chatting on messenger for just under a week and I really like this guy. He says he’s not ready to start dating either and seems happy to have a long distance friendship. He lives 700 miles away and works long hours 6 days a week in his family business so good chance we will never meet. He says he’s done with the dating ap (just a mess and women looking for sex) He hasnt been inappropriate and the only picture he has sent was taken with his drone overlooking a lake where he lives.

    Being alone on the holidays has been difficult for me. He chatted with me all Thanksgiving day on messenger. It really helped get me through the day. Also he seems drawn to older women. I am 20 years older than him. I hope he is genuinely going to be a good friend. Guess only time will tell. This is all new territory for me.

  4. Kim e says:

    You stated “You mean…talk about that kind of stuff here?….I generally save it for the “closed” and “secret” dark triad/machiavellian/narc groups on FB. I’m not worried about how *you* would feel towards it; I’m concerned about all the empaths here. Condemnation sucks.”

    How canyou be cncerned about all the empaths here when withthe exception of HG, all comments are being made by empaths???? Empaths have some of the dirtiest minds on the planet I am sure. We are not angels…believe me. If you have something that to add to the conversation, please do not worry about us empaths.

    1. zielum says:

      Kim e,

      Because I have a lifetime of experience that is giving me warning bells saying this isn’t the right audence for this discussion. I suppose I can put it bluntly: I don’t really care how you and other empaths feel about my viewpoints. But I do care about your guys’ reaction to it against me.

      If you’re that interested however, you could try a thought exercise where you imagine that there is no absolute standard of right or wrong, only the morality that you choose to perceive. If so, what would you do? What would you change about yourself, the world around you, society at large? What would you believe? My hint for what I refuse to disclose is that my vision of the world, and my beliefs about life itself, would go against some strongly-held “universal” standards of morality that humans are currently subject to. “Dirty” is a long way from “dark”.

      1. zielum says:

        Sigh. Okay. Reading back over what I wrote, I can see why you guys are feeling like I’m belittling your ability to stomach certain things. I promise I wasn’t meaning to. Please understand that every other audience I’ve had in the past, both online and in person, can’t seem to handle me saying anything too far outside the box. Those were very real, very painful experiences. Now I’m constantly on edge to avoid making that mistake again. But I guess you guys seem okay with it. I haven’t read over past conversations throughout this site and so I didn’t really consider the possibility.

        I concede that I spoke foolishly. I do apologize.

        1. Kim e says:

          Apology accepted.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Zielum, there’s no way you are a narc. You may have narcissistic traits; you may be codependent. A narc would never apologize and see past his errors.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I am not suggesting Zielum is a narcissist. I am however cautioning against an inaccuracy.

            A narcissist will apologise. It is False Contrition.
            A narcissist will say he has seen the error of his ways. Further False Contrition.

            The only way to determine whether someone has seen the error of their ways is to ascertain whether they repeat the behaviour (or similar behaviours) and that can only be done over a period of time.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you HG, that’s a very important clarification, I didn’t think about that. True, a narc can pretend to apologize and to having seen through his errors while still considering inside he is right. I was excited to think I had discovered the clue to give Zielum reassurance, but I see it’s not that easy. HG, in the case someone believes to be a narcissist, -I was actually wondering about this yesterday- would you recommend taking the Narc Detector or the Empath Detector?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            If you want to ascertain whether someone is a narcissist, you organise the Narc Detector Consultation.
            If you want to ascertain whether you are an empath, you use the Empath Detector Consultation.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I guess you are not supposed to use the Narc Detector on yourself then. But if the person in question takes the Empath Detector and the results indicate this person is not an empath, that won’t determine whether the person is a narcissist.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            The outcome, if not empath, does not mean it is always narcissist, there are other outcomes. If the person is a narcissist, there is no point telling them because they will not accept it anyway.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t know. It seems to me some people would not be so conflicted to being diagnosed as a narcissist. As a matter of fact, sometimes it sounds like they would rather be told. It’s my impression.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I understand your point. If a narcissist did wish to be told but they would not accept it, they would use it as an excuse as opposed to actually owning what it means and their desire to be told would be a manipulation in itself, SP.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I understand. It is crystal clear once you present it that way, of course you know your kind better than anyone.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed I do, that is why you use my resource.

          10. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            I assumed before and was wrong, so I’d like to check first this time:
            Are you referring to me, or at least have me in mind, as far as the convo line about taking the detectors/telling the narcissist?
            If so, I’d like the chance to explain myself and where I’m coming from as far as narcissism. A show of cards, if you will.
            If you weren’t referring to me/had me in mind, then I’m sorry for once again assuming and butting in.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, I was not, but I was wondering about that after reading your thread about whether not knowing if you might be a narc or codependent etc. It reminded me of different cases of a few people in the blog that were also convinced they might have narcissism and then it occurred to me, what if you really wanted to find out? That’s all. No I was not referring to you, but no need to apologize, you didn’t assume. You felt alluded and asked directly. I like your honesty and the fact that you are always polite. Rude people get under my skin.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh, but Zielum, even if I wasn’t referring to you, please explain where you come from in terms of narcissism, I am interested (if you still feel like doing so of course).

          13. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Alright–thank you. Give me some time though, as the draft in my head is already a book.

          14. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Okay, so here goes:

            Keep in mind that I’m currently in neutral mood. If I were irritated, this would be worded much more harshly and–if you will–transparently.

            Two years ago, I divorced my then-husband of 6 1/2 years. Around that time, I experienced an extreme low of mood (unrelated to the divorce) that caused me to seek help. Before my appointment with the therapist, I researched online everything about myself. When I arrived at her office, I presented my conclusion: I had Borderline Personality Disorder. This therapist was not specialized in PD’s. After talking with me, she agreed that I probably had it, and diagnosed me within three visits with BPD, anxiety, and major depressive disorder. I stopped sessions then due to financial restraints, but I had only just begun my journey of figuring out what I am.

            I researched relentlessly. I joined forums and FB groups. I embraced my Borderline identity, because after all, I had 8 of the 9 diagnostic criteria at any given time.

            But it didn’t sit right. There was something else going on that didn’t jive with the accounts of other borderlines. Borderlines have a general demeanor of irritability, sure, but that didn’t explain the types of thinking I constantly engaged in. I thought of myself as an ultimately decent, good, kind-hearted person. Why, then, was I so self-centered? Why, then, did I realize more and more that my motivations weren’t altruistic but self-serving, even when it outwardly appeared selfless?

            It started with the question of empathy. It is still a question of empathy. If borderlines are so empathetic, why then did I not relate to the feelings of caring that others described? My ex and I were on friendly terms, coparenting and even sharing a room. But he had a true narcissist (my narc now) who told him what a terrible person I was. My ex (who has his own issues) would act out, randomly displaying behavior against me that caused me to hate him. But all I wanted was to be on good terms in order to raise healthy kids. I found myself consciously engaging in small forms of manipulation to win him back over each time, to get him to see the good in me and forget what anyone else told him or what he felt for himself. I expected to feel bad about this. I had always strived (strove?) to be as authentic as possible. This did not seem authentic. But I felt zero remorse…He deserved it because of the way he treated me, his inability to think for himself, his codependence on what I provided.

            This was the start of the change. I still thought I was a good person. I rationalized it. I was doing it for my kids, after all; there’s nothing more important. But I began to question why I didn’t feel bad; because the more comfortable I got with the small manipulations, the more unoffensive the larger ones appeared.

            I went through a few experiences that awoke in me a much deeper need to know myself. I engaged in relationships that always went south, but I learned from each one. I got better and better at keeping someone with me against their better judgement, and with a conscious effort on my part. The mood swings died down dramatically. I was more in control of myself. I learned to read boundaries and know when and when not to cross them. I learned to feel out the other’s vulnerabilities, and I learned to keep the knowledge tucked away until they could be most effectively utilized to get my way. But I still thought I had the relationship’s, and thereby my partner’s, best interests at heart.

            I had a final breakup and then I was alone. It hit me hard at first. But slowly, I began to develop a sense of independence outside of relationships. I could hold my own.

            At this point, I probably no longer qualified under the DSM for BPD.

            My narc–former boss and close friend of my ex–kept in contact with me. Of all the control I had learned for myself, I could not keep it together when talking to him. I still fell to pieces and acted very borderline…or codependent. Something. Something that grovelled and pleaded and served. I disgusted myself. Not for the nude pics I immediately sent upon request, not for being attracted to him to begin with despite knowing he was a narcissistic asshole–but for the lack of control I felt around him, the pathetic-ness (?) of being at his mercy. I scoured the Internet for ways to get the upper hand–I needed to learn more about his disorder in order to beat him at his game and ensnare him. Despite everything, I thought that he had to be interested in me in some way.

            But the last future fake was the also the last straw. I didn’t want a partnership; I wanted to tear him down. My overwhelming feeling was indignation; he was clearly not superior to me if he couldn’t see the value I’d bring to his life.

            So I researched some more. Guess what site I found? None other than HG’s. With his work I was able to realize that my narc did have full-blown NPD, and further, it was confirmed how low in the fuel matrix I was–how truly little he thought of me.

            But instead of stopping there, I kept reading. I wanted to manipulate my narc in the same way he had been manipulating me for two years, but better; I wanted to become a better narc than he was.

            It was here that something clicked in my head. What if my narcissistic traits were actually more authentic than my “good person” persona I tried so desperately to hold onto? Everyone told me, from my childhood on up, that self-centered traits are bad, that you *must* be a good person, you *must* think of others. I fought myself tooth and nail for years trying to tamp down on my bitterness, my fury, my envy and my arrogance. It always felt like a losing battle–it *was* a losing battle. No matter what I did, no matter how many self-help books I read, no matter how much I practiced mindfulness–My inner self was a truly mean person. And I wondered: What if I embraced those traits instead, but with control?

            I’ve been reading and listening to HG’s work with rapt attention. Instead of revulsion, I felt envy. I thought to myself, now *this* person knows how to play the game. *This* person knows about controlling himself, and his environment.

            I’ve decided to let my inner self out, but with the caveat that I must control it. And while I am doing this, I must observe myself. How does doing this, or that, feel? What are my motivations for that action? Does this feel authentic?

            I do not yet know if I am a true narcissist. I may very well still be borderline, or something else entirely. But I’m trying this path out and watching myself to see if it is who I truly am–and if it is, how far I can go.

            One thing I am not, is an empath. HG’s warning applied to me, even if he didn’t intend it to. I apologize for my own ends. I want to keep the peace, and I will do what needs to be done to get that.

            I am not, however, malignant. My insincere apologies and feigned interest are not meant to harm, and I do not feel satisfaction out of harming for no reason. I don’t feel shame or remorse either if it does happen incidentally, more of a panic over how it will affect me and my goals, but I gain little by harming those who have not harmed me.

            On the other hand, I feel the fury HG describes when I perceive a threat to traits important to me. You saw a bit of this when I first started commenting. I wanted to lash out to the full extent of what I felt. But ultimately, I really am here to learn, and to practice control of myself. Lashing out and making enemies of everyone is not exactly maintaining control and it would get me nowhere.

            And so I did what needed to be done to make amends and appear remorseful. That, I perfected a long time ago–another survival method borne of my childhood.

            I’m being candid because again, my aim isn’t to harm those here. I hope that my insincerity in certain responses is not off-putting enough to prevent any further discussion with myself. I do not feel remorse or interest by and large but it is not personal and I have no ill intent. I wish to be agreeable on here to the extent that I can.

            I will say that any “deception” ends with keeping-the-peace efforts; my stories and ideas are authentic. I want to know more about myself and receiving external feedback is of immense value to that end. I have no intention of sabotaging my own goal for being here.

            Furthermore, I find intelligent debate stimulating. I place a great deal of value in people who can hold their own in a discussion without resorting to pettiness. I wasn’t expecting to involve myself much in the comment section but I’ve been delighted to find that there is a fair amount of intelligent–not to mention witty–back-and-forth. I’m finding the atmosphere rather enjoyable. 🙂

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, thank you very much for opening up like this. I find your explanation very honest, you certainly went on a very long path of self-discovery and self-acceptance, that is never easy. Please, notice that you don’t need to be BPD or NPD to lash out, the blog has multiple pieces of evidence of empaths losing their shit, including myself though I try to avoid that at all cost. I need to reflect on your long comment for a while before I can share what I think with you. If you are a narcissist, at least I can say that out of all the narcs that have stopped by here, you are so far the only one I can keep a good conversation with. Let me think, I don’t wanna continue to ramble.

          16. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Aw lol I really like that compliment at the end–thank you! I’ve worked very hard at being able to converse with people. You should’ve seen me as a high schooler.

            Also, thank you for taking the time to read it all. I will certainly give you time to think; no problem there.

            So yeah–this was the “story” of everything, but it doesn’t really get into why I think it may be narcissism as opposed to BPD or something else (such as an overview of the official traits for each disorder and which ones overlap each other, and why one disorder can or cannot be ruled out, etc.). That would be another whole book–which I’m perfectly willing to write, if you’re interested, after we finish with my last one lol

          17. SMH says:

            zielum, That survival method sounds just like what an N would do and for the same motivations. Don;t forget that control and fuel needs are what make narcs tick. Do you know about fuel? If not, you might want to read up on it.

            You want to maintain the peace on here so that you can learn about yourself. Fair enough – that’s what we all want. We are learning a lot about ourselves as well as about Ns. But most narcs are not aware that they are narcs. If you have such a strong inkling, let’s call it, that this is what you might be, you’re probably not a lesser or a mid ranger. You’d be a greater. You don’t sound like one, but that could be your youth.

          18. SMH says:

            I have not formed an opinion yet, despite my gut reaction. I will watch and wait, as you advise HG.

          19. Kim e says:

            SMH……My thoughts all along. Gut feeling but waiting to see

          20. SMH says:

            Kim e, It will be interesting to see. I don’t feel that I have had enough experience or get enough opportunities to evaluate.

          21. zielum says:

            This is true. I will keep it in consideration.

          22. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Yeeeeah….I realize HG’s cautioning against me but I still agree with his advice. I think everyone here, myself included, has been conned at the hands of a narc. And I’m sure it didn’t happen within just a few short conversations of meeting them (mine has been over the course of years).

            As far as me being a narc–I honestly don’t believe I have full-blown NPD. You are most likely right that it’s just traits…I’m thinking I might be some sorta borderline-codependent-narc hybrid, if that’s even possible lol Or maybe I’m just not aware enough of my issues to be able to view everything objectively from afar. Maybe the definitions themselves need tweaking. Who knows! That’s why I’m on here: to learn and discover.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            You misread what I wrote.

          24. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, HG was correcting me, he wasn’t cautioning against you. He prefaced what he said by explaining his clarification didn’t mean he thought you were a narc but that he had to caution MY inaccuracy when I stated that you (or anyone for that matter) couldn’t be a narc because you used an apology.

            If I were you, I would read Chained. It explains very thoroughly the traits of a codependent Empath and the strong links between them and NPD. I think you sound very close to that description plus people with BP are ideal candidates for that I believe. However, the expert is right here in front of you. I wouldn’t make any more guesses and would go ahead and take the Empath Detector.

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Correct SP. Saved my fingers a job.

          26. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m a dedicated Carrier.

          27. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Ahhh you’re right, I did misread. Good cause like I said, I’m just on here to learn lol I’d like to operate from a basis of good faith.

            I did read Chained and I found it an excellent resource. As I’ve mentioned before, I appear to have strong tendencies towards BPD, narcissism, and codependency. At any given time, I could be any. Or at least, that’s what it feels like when I look at myself. I could be dead wrong, since I can’t see myself from an outside perspective.

            I have definitely considered a consult with HG–in fact, I intend it. I just need to 1) secure the funds, and 2) figure out the exact reason I want a consult (I don’t have money to waste on a bad guess; I get one shot). I tend to write whole essays on here cause my mind is a disorganized mess. Once I can get a clear goal for what I’d like out of a consult, I will indeed reach out to HG for one.

          28. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum: Angel Assistance can help you.

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD. says:

        There are so many comments on this poll that I will have to read when I get back from the gym lol but are you part of all those dark triad groups and psychopathy groups?

        I ask because I am…lmao

        1. zielum says:

          Dr. HQ, PsyD,

          Lol I was part of at least one, maybe two. And like, six or seven narc/path/cluster B groups. But I deleted that FB account and started fresh. Did your group happen to have a certain rotund narcissistic bearded fellow with a romantic thing for borderline women and as well as public rants denouncing said borderline women? (You’d know who I mean). If he was in there, then I probably was too. I followed him everywhere lol

          Hell, all of this talk of the groups though is making me wanna start rejoining.

          What was your experience of your group(s) like?

          1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD. says:


            I may know who you are speaking of lol…

            You followed him everywhere? Girl, details… lol…

            You sure he’s just a narc lol?

            … or is he a narc psychopath

          2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD. says:

            Did this bearded dude with a thing for borderline women ….have a thing goin on with you??

            My experience has been good. It’s entertaining… I also like being able to learn and make friends. Drama comes up … obviously. I have been mostly on the outside watching most drama but people have tried me lol.

            I had a couple try and seduce me and were mad when I politely declined lmao… oh well not my problem.

            What was ur experience like ?? Lmao

          3. zielum says:

            Dr. HQ, PsyD.,

            “Did this bearded dude with a thing for borderline women ….have a thing goin on with you??”
            Lol no…I’m a gay trans guy and I was into him, but he’s into femininity (cis and trans women) so he turned me down (not to mention not living anywhere near each other). He was into this…kinda crazy female member, they kept getting together and breaking up over and over, each time both very vocal on the groups about it, esp. bearded dude, painting each other all black or all white. It was quite a sight to see.

            Eh I mean, he invited me to all the groups; he heads most of them. Diag’d with NPD, but in his own words, he believes he’s got both narc and borderline traits–is narc outside of relationships, borderline while in them. Def. not psychopath. Pretty cool guy. Anyway–if none of this description sounds familiar, you and I probably weren’t in many of the same groups–he was extremely visible on all of them, posting frequently and starting long convos.

            LOL @ the couple getting mad. I’d love to try a threesome with a hetero couple. I sorta had a threesome once with two random guys off Grindr, but none of us knew each other and that was a mistake. The first guy topped me while the other was still doing foreplay. Then he finished quickly and didn’t want to participate further, just rolled to the side. The other guy felt kinda awkward topping me with the first guy just laying there, so he didn’t end up finishing. We all left quickly and never hooked up again.

            My experience with the narc groups was pretty mellow. I stayed out of trouble cause I recognized I was in a group way more adept than me in the fine art of malicious backlash. I usually tried to keep to the “peacekeeping” role and would just offer long posts of whatever insight I could. I got discouraged though cause by and large, my posts were ignored. Only a few would voice their appreciation of what I had to say. One even said he “loved it every time I spoke”, which was great, but not enough. I felt kinda alone. Hence one of the many reasons I deleted my whole FB account–it’s a pain in the ass to go through and delete each post one by one, when I had posted hundreds of times over the years. When I feel alone in a group of people, I tend to want nothing more to do with that group, and to make it as if I never existed.

            I know this is kinda random but I guess it goes in line with the sad-sorry-sack of woe-is-me I got into with the preceding paragraph. Also I just want to get it off my chest, and neither my current FB audience nor the people within my immediate sphere are willing/able to hear it. Again, random, but…Since adulthood, any dreams I’ve had of my mom were always ones where I was standing up to her–screaming at the top of my lungs in fearful anger, in a way I never could as a kid, telling her I was NOT going to listen to her anymore, NOT going to follow her rules, NOT going to be hurt by her, she was NOT going to control me anymore. And she’d always yell back at me, but I’d clearly be on top. Still though, I’d consider them nightmares, because of the way they made me feel upon waking. The terror of talking back to her, asserting control where I still feel I don’t have any with her. Well last night, I had one of a different sort, for the first time. This one wasn’t full of anger, but pain. I heard all of her stinging, biting remarks again. Her comments about my sister. Telling me I’m worthless and will never amount to anything. On top of that was a friend I used to have, one who drew away from me (as they all do), a painful reminder of what I lost, what I always lose. In her eyes was that same…wariness, the loathing, we had to be together for some reason but she wanted nothing to do with me. I’ve repelled people since I was a little kid–I have memories spanning all the way to kindergarten of my inability to connect with people. Well, I connect with them initially…but then they all draw away. There’s something about other people that I don’t understand, and there’s something about me that’s inherently flawed that no one wants anything to do with once they get to know me. I’ve held this bitterness, this resentment, all my life. I’ve tried so hard to fit in everywhere I go, but it’s never good enough. At my core, I hate people. I hate that they see me as worthless, just like my parents. This isn’t just a perception issue…Yes, there have been a few people that still consider me a friend and will reach out to talk to me…but only the ones who never got to know me well. The ones who did, leave. It has happened so many times over so many years in so many different circumstances, that I know it’s not a coincidence. The common denominator is me. That’s why I’m so hellbent on understanding myself. Maybe if I know who or what I am, I can figure out how to navigate the world in a way that won’t repel people. In a way that draws people in. In a way where people accept and cherish me.

            This is what the BPD diagnosis didn’t cover. The bitterness, the resentment, the hatred, the distrust. It’s always under the surface. That’s why I’ve been thinking NPD might explain it better. As I’ve mentioned before, HG’s way of drawing people in through manipulation doesn’t necessarily repulse me. If that’s what it takes, that’s what it takes. Obviously me just trying to be a “good” person like they all want, hasn’t gotten me anywhere. Although I don’t think I get the same fuel from actively hurting people who’ve done me no wrong. Idk. If devaluation has set in, I suppose that’s enough reason to see the other person as having done something wrong, and I’ve certainly been there. I just don’t have the benefit of backups in order to drop the main person I’m with, so I’m forced to make peace with them because I don’t have other options.

            Le sigh. Life sucks. Lol. Someday I’ll get it right.

            Sorry that this took a weird turn, one focused on myself, as per usual. I tend to overexplain and overshare about myself cause I hope that someone, somewhere, might be able to give me the answers about my personality that I can’t quite grasp. Something that will help me figure life out. It’s a journey.

          4. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD. says:


            Ah! Omg I’m so excited you’re here for so many reasons! I also didn’t realize you are a gay trans guy. You can probably help me understand some things because one of my ex narcs (the one that originally brought me to HG) was def a closeted gay mid range narcissist.

            A few questions for ya:

            What are some of the complaints people have made in your friendships and relationships?

            Did you go into the relationships being yourself or what you think they wanted to see?

            In relationships are you taking more than giving? Like try and take a step back and think of like you aren’t reciprocating as much as the other person in a friendship or relationship…

            Do people say there is a lack of follow thru? That like… you say you will do shit and you don’t actually do it?

            When people are upset and need support do you try and comfort them and offer to assist them in any way?

            Do you communicate well with your friends and in your relationships?

            Have people complained you don’t call or text much? Do people ever say you never answer questions directory?

            When you get mad do you go for the low blow remark ?

            Also, I think that it’s important to be comfortable with yourself. The more you are comfortable with yourself – know your strengths and your weaknesses you care less and less with what people think. That is freedom.

            You try so hard to fit in. fuck fitting in. So what if you’re not the norm. It’s exhausting trying to be something your not. It’s not even fulfilling.

          5. zielum says:

            Dr. HQ, PsyD.,

            O.O Ohmigosh lol I’m tickled that you’re asking me all this; I hope I can be helpful.

            Please keep in mind that from age 19 to 26 ish, I was married and my thoughts/behavior looked very Borderline–or, if you will, Lesser Narcissist. No true self-awareness, practically zero emotional control. I was also obsessed with being a “good” person, because I recognized that I was a lot like my mom, and I hated that, and blamed it for the reason I seemed to be a “bad” person. Post-divorce (about two years ago) is when the self-awareness came into play, and I started looking less and less borderline, and more and more narcissistic (to myself, and probably others). I also do not have a whole lot of relationship experience, but I’ll work with what I can.

            For reference: I tend to fall for guys I view as above me–superior in some way. Emotionally in control of themselves, charismatic, above-average intelligence, career-accomplished, etc. I also have noticed they were all a tad narcissistic, in hindsight. One is even full-blown NPD (we never had a relationship, just an ongoing interaction). My ex-husband is very narcissistic, but in the most hidden of ways, as he’s also extremely codependent. You should’ve seen him after the divorce…ugh.

            1. Complaining. That one hurts cause I’ve been told it all my life. Apparently I do it a lot. Or used to (I’ve gotten much better). With my ex-husband, I definitely nagged and bitched like no tomorrow. But even post-divorce, I did it often.

            Controlling. Yep, I’m a control freak. Even when I appear to amenably acquiesce, it’s only when I don’t see any way to get my way, and it’s always begrudgingly–in my head, I’m hard at work trying to figure out how to regain control–because I *will* get it back.

            Sex. Either too much, or too little. I don’t feel any connection with sex, it’s just something physical to do, and something that works great for gaining control. I’m not always great at gauging how much or little someone wants, and if I don’t see a point in it for myself, I’m loathe to do it. I *will* lay there like a log and bitch the whole time about a headache or it hurts or you’re not going fast/hard enough or you know I hate that position, etc.

            Bad habits. Guys like to complain about my smoking, or vaping, or erratic/fast driving, or pills (back when I did them), or whathaveyou.

            Lack of motivation. I can’t be bothered with a lot of things. I also have a hard time holding onto long-term goals. Mostly I mirror whatever my partner wants of me, but I lose interest or feel it’s not for me, etc. Hence no career yet at nearly 30.

            2. Myself, but…a certain side of myself. The “trying to catch someone” self. Since my partners are generally top of their game in their own ways, I tend to become this giggly, wide-eyed, cute person who wants nothing more than to please. It’s also the only time I feel excitement. I get so into my roleplaying that I con myself into emotions. It’s only after the initial catch phase is over that I mellow back down into something that looks more like my normal self.

            And yeah, I do mirror a lot. It doesn’t feel like I’m being someone else…It feels like I’m genuinely taking on their interests. Cars, music, food, programming, etc. I don’t have a solid sense of self so it feels like I’m taking on their identity as my own. I would say in hindsight that it mostly is a way of becoming more attractive to a partner.

            3. Kind of a hard one because my “taking” looks an awful lot like “giving”. In fact, I think this a big reason people like me at first, but then feel that “something is off but can’t quite put my finger on it”. They sense my self-absorption but it’s so subtle that they can’t point to outright displays of it. It confuses them and largely leaves me off the hook for blame, but it still causes them to get frustrated with the overall situation. If they’re healthy-minded, they leave fairly quickly; the others stay way longer than they know they should.

            I guess it boils down to making them think that what I want is really what they want. I’m great at that, for whatever reason….I used to pity-play a lot but I’ve found it more effective to be super subtle in weaseling things to go my way without them realizing it. Causes less strife.

            So yeah…probably taking more than giving, even if it doesn’t appear so. And I generally don’t care that much about what they actually want; doing things my way suits me just fine.

            4. Um, I don’t recall anyone verbally taking issue with it, but I did engage in it (for instance, sticking with a particular job, or finishing a school program, or staying with a diet, or quitting nicotine, etc.). Mostly I would kinda whine about some excuse or other as to why I couldn’t do such and such. Making it about me, or explaining why I couldn’t possibly finish what I had intended to do because of this personal issue or that, which of course I had no idea about when I initially made my declaration, or at least, greatly underestimated the enormity of its disruption. I guess a sort of pity play.

            As far as not following through with doing things for other people? Easy; I very rarely promise to do crap for people. I don’t like being on the hook for it. So I use phrases like, “Hm, that’s a good idea”, “Yeah, I’ll think about it”, “Gotta get around to it”, “It’s possible I might be able to”, etc. I can’t be accountable for a promise I never made. If I do say I’m going to do something for someone else (directly to that person), it’s generally something I do actually intend on doing, and I try hard to follow through. I like to be seen as reliable, but not for every little thing that I don’t feel like doing.

            5. If I have to. I feel awkward, like I know I’m supposed to do something and I have to figure out what the appropriate approach is. Generally the partners I pick don’t seek emotional help from me. I remember with my ex-husband, who knew I had depression issues way back then, well one time he told me that he had depression too. I remember being…angry. Depression was *my* issue, not his. He was trying to get attention, trying to take it away from me. I didn’t understand my feelings back then, I was very confused at why I would feel angry about it. I refused to believe him because he never appeared depressed. I even rolled my eyes at him and argued about it. I was pissed when he dragged me to therapy with him cause his therapist thought it was a good idea. She told me I wasn’t being supportive. Lol. But yeah…I did realize later that yes, he does have depression, it just looks different because of his personality. Luckily he’s not the touchy-feely type so I don’t have to ever console him or anything.

            He did cry in front of me once, and I felt a lot of disgust, even though he was showing more vulnerability than he ever had and it was because he felt sorry for sending me into a rage just before then. I did let him lean against me in a sort of hug though, and said “It’s okay.” I think I even patted his back a little. [Editing out a description I had here of the rage incident, because it paints me in a pretty bad light].

            I’m pretty lame with consoling people. “That sucks”, or “I’m sorry” are about the extent of what I can muster when someone shares their problems. I then usually switch to asking questions and trying to offer solutions, as that’s easier.

            Assistance? Eh, no…it usually is not even on my radar that I should offer assistance. They might actually take me up on it, which I’d rather not risk.

            6. As I said, most of my partners are of the stronger type. Generally I’m the one overtexting. But there was one guy, not a partner but I could tell he wanted to be, he started off seeming my type but it turned out it was a front. He was very emotionally needy. He bombarded me with texts and it was annoying as shit. I set his message tone as something distinct so I’d know I didn’t have to check my phone. I’d wait days before replying cause a reply would always encourage him to start bombarding me again. I ended up blocking him even though we were still “friends”. He eventually realized I wasn’t going to give him what he needed, and he asked that we part ways. I was like, “Sure, I’ve been feeling the same way.” Lol. He did try to connect again later but I shut it down.

            As far as other people–I generally take a while to reply. I get busy, and I get drained; carrying on a convo when I don’t feel like it, just sucks. I often set my FB chat to show me as “offline” to discourage people from randomly chatting me up and wondering why I’m not replying.

            Not answering directly? Hm. Parents always used to say “Spit it out”, or “Say it in 10 words or less”, or “It’s a yes or no question”, or ” ‘I don’t know’ isn’t an answer”, if that counts? Lol.

            7. Yes.

            If I’m not in control of myself.

            It used to happen all the time with my ex-husband. Since then, I’ve mostly been able to hold my tongue, because I recognise it will sabotage my goals. I remember distinct times with my last relationship where I thought up and mulled over the worst retorts I could make while in the midst of a heated argument. I was able to keep from saying them because god he’d go into such a hissy fit if I did say them.

            I do have to say, it can be pretty satisfying to have that kind of power (knowing their deepest issue) and watch their face when you stab them with it. The surprise and hurt…Knowing I nailed it. I always feel justified, because I only use it when I feel attacked. So in my mind, they’re getting exactly what they asked for. Don’t mess with me, I won’t mess with you. Easy.

            As you may have gleaned, I’m not the nicest of people. So “being myself”…Idk. People don’t like it. But I guess they don’t like me when I’m trying to be nice either, sooo yeah. I think if I had just one true friend, I’d be set. I haven’t found “my people” yet–the magical group out there somewhere that will accept me as me, bitterness and all. I’m still young though lol I’m sure I’ll find them.

          6. Hope says:

            Zielum. I find you fascinating. I can identify a lot with things you share. Others I’m very grateful for your honest perspective on. One made me cringe in a “tough love” sort of way. When you said ugh about your ex being devastated after divorce. I was the same as him I’m sure and realizing that is how the person responsible for my pain felt about it is hard to accept. I almost died and I’m not normally suicidal. One thing you said left me disappointed. You shouldn’t feel a need to edit yourself! Who cares what light you’re in? I want to hear the story of the rage. The reason being it will illuminate a lot for me about my ex. You talk of good and bad but really everyone is both. Don’t be ashamed to show your authentic self. There’s a billion more people who think, feel, and act the same in “bad” ways but just never talk about it. You aren’t worse because you are open. You have courage, integrity, and self-acceptance and it’s a great thing for the world to see its okay to talk about it. Please unedit yourself. I love hearing you describe your true experience.

          7. zielum says:


            Aw lol I love that I’m fascinating to you! That certainly encourages me to keep writing.

            Eh, “shame” isn’t quite the right word…more like, fear of the repercussions. I smashed a household ceramic object across his chest WWE-style, and it cut him (he still has the scar), causing blood to go all down his chest and on the walls when he touched it and then used that hand for support (he was drunk) (he was fine, the cut wasn’t deep and healed fast, it just happened to be a spot that bled unusually profusely). All I could feel at that was disgust that I’d have to clean it up. I felt no shame or regret then, nor currently. He deserved it. He hasn’t pulled that crap since then, and I haven’t resorted to that kind of escalation since then either. The impulses are still there but I’ve found less violent ways to let it out. As I’ve said and still maintain, I’m not a violent person; he pushed me way over the edge that time. My overriding feeling was this: “I want him to feel the pain that he’s making me feel.” Because he’s narcissistic too. He never seemed to care what effect his words and actions were having on me. And at the time, I didn’t know the right words to make him feel internal pain. So I lashed out physically, an impulsive solution to the rage I was feeling. I was very Borderline back then, or, alternatively, Lesser Narcissist. I *hated* being blamed for everything.

            I suppose it was a bit cringy about the “ugh” part. I had in mind more of the narcissistic lashings-out that he did (barricading the front door so I couldn’t get in, taking my house key, turning off the garage breaker so I couldn’t use the remote opener, uninstalling my bedroom door handle, using the kids as pawns and guilt-tripping me about my interactions with them), but I did, and do, recognize that he was doing all of this out of hurt. Also….probably had something to do with me insisting on living with him and being a part of his everyday life post-divorce when what he really needed was space. I guess that would be pretty hard on someone–he didn’t want the divorce, and yet he had to watch me hooking up with guys off Grindr, working as an escort, finding a new bf or fling….Idk. And I love to talk, so I’d tell him all about everything. Mm I don’t think I was doing it on purpose, but maybe I was, who knows. There was, and still is, a big part of me that doesn’t see what the big deal was. We divorced, I got over it, he should too. I find it hard to understand why he still has romantic feelings towards me. For me, it’s like…..Reality sorta resets frequently, it’s updated continuously and I accept it for what it is and I recalculate how to proceed each time. Whilst he still seems to hold onto this love we used to have, and is in constant pain over it, even though that was a few years ago and we’ve got a whole new working relationship between us now. I think what we’ve got is just fine. He even got a gf at one point, and that was great (except when she started criticizing my parenting…nope, out the door, bitch). In a way, I still see my ex as “mine”, even though we’re divorced and I’ve had other guys and he’s had a girl. I’m loathe to allow anyone else to come between the working relationship we have, cause then he starts acting out towards me and causing issues, making things difficult.

            Eh…I suppose that’s unhealthy lol I guess it kinda looks like I’m personally preventing him from moving on until I can “move on” first–find a way to move out with someone else. Idk. I still care about his well-being, as long as he’s not being an ass to me, then all care goes out the window.

            But yes. It’s hard for someone with narcissistic tendencies to understand, or care, that their former partner is feeling devastation at something we’re already over. Cause we don’t feel it, and therefore, why should they? Or the malignant type, like HG, may actually revel in the devastation they cause–again, it’s not them, and there’s no “putting yourself in the other’s shoes”, so of course there’s no guilt. And we may very well feel that you even deserve it. It’s my ex’s fault that he can’t get over me; no one’s forcing him to feel that way and I’ve given him plenty of reason and opportunity to change how he views things. If he refuses to do that, then I can’t really be blamed for taking advantage of the situation when it’s the easiest and best path to take.

            I’m not malignant, I don’t take joy in causing issues just for the emotional reaction. I do everything I can to make homelife, and my interactions with my ex, as pleasant as possible. I do nice things for him and take care of his needs, share stories with him and spend quality time with him. It happens to be conditional, but that doesn’t mean it has to be awful. I don’t see a point in that. We both know the other would rather move on. We’re both just kinda stuck with what we’ve got for now. Such is life.

          8. Hope says:

            Ohhhh-kay. I understand the feeling you described of wanting him to feel the pain you are feeling. I’ve been so mad before at someone that I wanted to physically fight them even though I knew I couldn’t win. I thought that any damage to myself would be worth it, if only I could cause them some pain in the process. Sometimes I feel so powerless and so full of anger at the injustice of someone that I feel like if I don’t do something about it, no one will.

            Your context helps a lot. The things he did my narc-ex did too: physically fighting me for my keys and trying to start a scene in the balcony and offering to call the cops for me (I had no intention of calling the cops and I wasn’t afraid of him at the time) and he attempted to throw me out instead of getting through an argument together and coming to an agreement or logical conclusion.

            The fact that you were open and communicating and showing him your mindset makes sense too. With mine, he lied about everything no matter what, even today, if I ever talked to him he would still be lying. He divorced me and was living with someone else who he got pregnant and he was still lying to me. I was like, why? Of course now I know, thanks to the site. I think a lot of my pain was related to him refusing to be honest with me about anything. I think it would be very much easier to accept that you’re moving on if I was your ex-husband and I was able to witness it first-hand, and even talk to you about it.

            I think it’s understandable that you need approval of his partner due to the coparent situation. I knew better than to comment on someone else’s parenting when I was involved with my ex-husband and he had two daughters already. Or at least I knew to stay on the right side of the line. I’d sympathize with my ex when he bashed the mothers but inside I knew he was being unfair. When the mothers vented to me I’d sympathize as well but I knew better than to speak to him about the criticism. With the children themselves I always referred them to the relevant authority if they were confused about my status, making it clear I wasn’t in charge. If I watched them alone I would do so as I would as babysitter. I tell them my first name and treat them like regular people. I play in their little fantasy worlds if they ask me to. I explain things to them if I have to restrict anything for their own good. I’m very compassionate and considerate and I make sure the kids come first anytime they are around. His ex was sure to interview me and spend time with me and her daughter and her best friend to be sure she could be comfortable with me around her. I didn’t take offense at all. I totally understand and commend you for being protective of your kids and the environment they are placed in as a result of the relationship dynamics of the other parent.

            I think everything you’ve described is pretty understandable and not shocking at all. It makes sense now that you explained it and understanding that you both have some narcissistic tendencies that just set each other off in the right way. It’s got to be real touchy being in a relationship where your buttons push his and his push yours and it’s hard to find a safe spot where no one is reacting.

          9. zielum says:


            Sounds like you’re great with kids; that’s a plus in my book, any day! I’m glad you deferred to the parents in any situation with the kids. A surprisingly large amount of people don’t understand the concept.

            I pretty much agree with everything you’ve said.
            I need more relationships under my belt, post-divorce, post-awareness, to determine whether I really am more Borderline or more narc. Right now, I have zero of the emotional roller-coaster that is hallmark of BPD, but if I am more narc, it’s a much more…Idk–covert, low-key version than anything HG describes. Which, in all fairness–he sees things from a meta-perspective, and his descriptions are meant to (and do a superb job of it) shock and awe with what goes on under the surface behind a narcissist’s actions, in an effort to impress upon empathic people just how futile it is trying to get along happily with one. I think my ex and I only get along because we both have narc tendencies, and also just enough other-tendencies (anxiety, social aversion, depression, sarcastic humor, shit-talking, one-upping, etc.) to even it out.

            If it wasn’t for HG’s clear and blunt descriptions, I don’t think I would have stopped genuinely trying to be that “good” person. Every time someone in authority harshly criticized my narcissistic aspects as a kid (and wowza it was strong back then), I felt like…well, I was deeply confused, but also that I had to strive harder to please those authority figures. Prove that I wasn’t self-centered and arrogant and bitter and full of excuses. I couldn’t understand why I was punished and judged so critically while I saw so many assholes around me getting away with it. Reading HG’s work has been both an eye-opener and a sort of…validation; it’s okay, it’s accepted (at least by *someone* in authority), and furthermore–it may get my needs met way more efficiently than how I’ve been going about it all this time. I’m slowly starting to see a change in my perspective where I no longer feel “bad” for doing what feels right and furthers my objectives. Doesn’t mean malignancy–I honestly don’t see that in my nature–but I’ll no longer have to grapple with the reality of my intentions, exposed by self-awareness, in contrast to the “good person” image I was always superimposing on myself. Cognitive dissonance. So now I can do what I do, which generally doesn’t hurt people but still benefits mostly myself, without that childhood fear lingering over my head of being ostracized for “bad” intentions.

            For what it’s worth….background going even further back….I was adopted around 4 or 5 years old. My bio parents were drug dealer and drug user. There was documented neglect (police report of finding me and my sister eating out of a dumpster, as well as an earlier one where my bio mom trekked down a highway with her thumb out trying to get random passersby to take infant me) and abuse (emotional, physical, possibly sexual) by them and extended bio family. We (my sister and I) were shuffled between households, whomever felt like housing us for a time. The custody battle apparently involved some parental “kidnapping”. After adoption–out of the fire, into the frying pan–my adopted parents (especially my mom) were very narcissistic and low on patience/self-control/emotional support/compassion/etc. High in criticism, strict rule adherence, and punishment. Yada yada. I don’t like dwelling on it. But yeah…I think that’s how I ended up with a weird borderline/narc mix; I had a very unstable early childhood paired with a soul-sucking upbringing. It’s whatever now–I look back on it with only clinical interest.

            Since I gather this is a forum of frankness–I’m sorry that I talk a lot about myself and don’t have much to say about what is said to me. I read all of it and everything, I just…don’t know yet how to engage in a two-sided conversation. I am a little self-absorbed lol. But I do genuinely value input in replies even if it doesn’t appear like so.

          10. Hope says:

            Zielum. Wow, just wow. Whatever adaptation you developed–it worked. You survived! Be grateful to your body, brain, emotional defense mechanisms–everything. They served a very important purpose in protecting you and allowing you to thrive within the world YOU grew up in. A world very different than the one you live in now, and one that the majority of society grew up in. You functioned! You adapted! You may not have even realized at the time what was wrong with it–it was normal–to you. We learn so much at such a young age and develop our world-view and internal values system. You learned just fine, it’s just that what you learned–your world– changed as you grew older and more independent. Now, all those values are harder to change because they are engrained and have to be repeatedly disproven for you to even see logically that they don’t align with your world now but changing the emotional and instinctual parts is not automatic as a result of understanding. It’s overwhelming to consider all that would be involved in influencing them.

            Don’t feel guilty about what worked. You are magnificently designed and conditioned to survive and thrive. I agree with the validation piece. Other people may never understand, but as long as you do, it no longer makes sense to feel like you need to change or be ashamed. Ashamed of what?! Of living and being comfortable in a world that destroyed your belief in its comfort, kindness, or integrity before you even had enough reason on your own to identify how messed up it all was? If you remained as others are who didn’t face all that could you have really survived? No. Emotional pain is just as bad as physical. What kind of tolerance level does a child have? You find away to remain unaffected to the point you don’t even think about it.

            I had thought for the longest time that my childhood was fine. Great even. I focused on the good and tried to forget the bad instantly. I didn’t want to give it any power. I didn’t know until I was much older how fucked up it really was. I knew there was fucked up parts but I figured everyone did too. I identify with your not wanting to think about your past or give it any power. To admit it was fucked up means you didn’t actually have as much control as you thought you did. To admit means you are “victim” but you never feel like that. You feel like you are too tough to ever identify as a victim. At least that’s how I felt resistance to the concept. As a child I always felt stronger than the kids I went to school with, emotionally, mentally, and physically/athletically, but I owed that to my environment being tougher. I did feel like a survivor, literally. I felt often in my environment that it was unsafe and my choices and actions were responsible for me surviving to live another moment, hour, or day. So identifying with that strength, it’s hard to imagine that I was powerless or a victim.

            I’m fascinated clinically with your past and mine. I’m fascinated by your words because they are full of passion and depth of experience. For you to write about something you aren’t interested in just to be polite would not interest me at all. Thank you for not clouding up your commentary with polite but fake interest. I’ve always valued realists and become nauseated by fakeness.

            You should not feel pressure to change if you don’t want to and feel proud of yourself understanding your own traits heritage. You have won many battles and wars others have never fought, or even could have had a stomach to observe as they’ve been in a bubble their whole lives. You do have a unique gift and are very valuable as a result.

            I can identify with the way authority figures get you all wrong. I remember tears of frustration at my teachers demonizing me based on how my interest and enthusiasm manifested in my unique behavior which was often critical and challenging but only as a means to further the argument and test my own understanding of the things so often presented as fact or rules without thought or question. It is easy then to understand why someone may develop feelings of superiority and distrust. There is a reason behind every “negative” trait but this only means you add to the diversity of thought and approach and elevate the possibilities of any endeavor or organization you attach yourself to. You may be better served running your own business as an entrepreneur to ensure your talents aren’t silenced, filtered, or punished.

            It’s easy to see now how changing would invalidate your experience and your strength. When you become strong, who wants to become weak again? Who wants to devalue their own diversity and unique value. I guess changing your personality is a little like dumbing yourself down to be a cookie cutter much in the same way a young girl eager for acceptance would change her body to fit an ideal that removes her true value. What makes her, her, what makes her separate, not what makes her the same. Once you see the world and your place in it for what it’s worth, you can’t unsee, no matter how much ignorant people without vision try to convince you to see it in their negative limited viewpoints. You are mature as a result of your experience in the first five years of your life, much more advanced than most others will even experience in a lifetime. You ever see how the majority start to change over time as they age–owning their sexuality and demanding their say around 30, losing interest in external approval around 40, etc. Don’t regress because others aren’t progressed.

            I am so happy you are alive! Some people have “the best” of their lives in the beginning to high school and it goes down from there. You’ve had the worst of yours at birth to high school and it only gets better from here! Keep shining bright and never filter yourself and cover your light because others are ignorant to its treasure. I really hope we both learn more about ourselves and our childhood and how it shapes us and how to understand it so that we can use it to its full potential advantage. K

          11. SMH says:

            zielum, Maybe you are not a narc or borderline but rather have an attachment disorder because of your early childhood?

          12. zielum says:


            I looked up Adult Attachment Disorder…It’s not recognized yet as its own official disorder, it’s more of a broad term apparently. Its list of symptoms include: impulsiveness, greater likelihood of addiction, behaviors that are socially negative or inappropriate, desire for control, trust issues, unwillingness to accept responsibility, helplessness, anxiety, superficial positivity and depression.

            It sounds like those could largely apply to either BPD or NPD (maybe not the helplessness). I think all of the Cluster B disorders are based on neglectful/abusive/unstable/inappropriate attachments in childhood, as a resulting combination of environment and whatever genetic predisposition a child has.

            So I’m in agreement that I have attachment issues as a base; I don’t think it rules out an official diagnosis of something else though.

            HG mentions the Victim Narcissist…as much as it irritates me to say, if I belong anywhere on the narc spectrum, I think that would be it. Its counterpart in other sources is the “vulnerable” narcissist:

            “Also known as Fragile, Compensatory or Closet Narcissists, they still feel as if they are superior to most people they meet; however, they actually despise the spotlight. They often seek to attach themselves to special people instead of seeking special treatment themselves. They may seek pity, or ingratiate others through excessive generosity, to receive the attention and admiration they need to boost their sense of self-worth.”

            Heh. That’s me.

            And actually, reading it now…It’s possible Borderlines don’t feel superior to most other people they meet. I know they’ve certainly said as much (they actually feel inferior to most people), but I’ve lately been dismissing that because I’d thought I was Borderline and I feel the superiority complex. So I may have been projecting. I also don’t recall from my dealings in the BPD support groups any inclination the collective has of going after those they feel particularly superior to themselves. Sure, they idealize–probably to an even greater extent than narcs–but that’s not the same as rationally looking at someone’s characteristics and social status and being attracted to what you could gain by being with that person. My ex-husband is loved by all; when I first met him, this was insanely attractive. It was only when I realized that the charisma was a facade for his underlying extreme insecurity that I devalued and became much less attracted. We were married by that point though and I had to make do, building him up as much as I could so that he could function better socially (and with me).

            Idk. It’s hard to get past the feeling that NPD is an evolved form of BPD (alternatively, moving from Lesser Narcissist to Mid-Range or better). It’s something I’ll have to think about. HG has maintained that a person cannot move between the schools because there is a limit on one’s cognitive potential. But what if a person had the cognitive functioning to begin with, but were just unaware/mislead? Like, after self-reflection, realizing their motivations are different than what they’d always thought? Idk. I’d have to get more relationships under my belt to see if I still act and think Borderline/Lesser/whathaveyou. Coping mechanisms are hard to change, so I may not be as “evolved” as I like to think. x/

            As far as the Attachment Disorder–again, I think it shows up with all Cluster B’s. We all have a complete inability to truly connect with others, just as we were unable to truly connect with our caregivers. ASPD is kinda different with that when it comes to sociopaths–that’s murky water with all the differing opinions out there–Both “psychopaths” and “sociopaths” are informal terms for those with ASPD; I’ve read that psychopaths are made, while sociopaths are born. Meaning a psychopath wouldn’t’ve formed without an environmental trigger, but sociopaths have a different biological makeup that manifests regardless of childhood environment. So their attachment “issues” aren’t necessarily a result of abuse/neglect/etc.

            Anywho. Good stuff.

          13. SMH says:

            zielum, I am far from an expert but and have only interacted here with you a few times but I don’t think you have a personality disorder at all. That said, I agree that attachment issues are at the base of a lot of interpersonal problems, having been there myself with a victim lesser N/anxious attacher and me being an avoidant and all. Had I understood about attachment before things went south, I might have been able to moderate my own tendencies, though there was no good future being with an N. For you, it is not that you were truly unable to attach to your caregivers. It is rather than they were unable to attach to you. That’s different because it suggests that you were not born missing something. Anyway, a lot of what you write could apply to me as well. But I am 100% certain that I do not have a personality disorder and I am not sure why you think you do? You might have narc or borderline traits or both but that is far from having a disorder. Maybe you are correct that you need to get more relationships under your belt in order to know and be secure in yourself. I am older than you and a lot of this was not clear to me until recently.

          14. zielum says:


            Aside from sociopaths, those with personality disorders aren’t usually “missing” something at birth; it’s a mix of genetics and environmental influence. Can’t comment on my genetics but I know that I had hella environmental influence.

            I know that I have a personality disorder, of some sort, because of the difficulty I’ve had in navigating the world. I tend to write with a narrow focus on here, because that is the topic of this site and it makes sense to stay on it. My problems aren’t just with attaching to partners; they’re with interacting with anyone. My problems aren’t just with other people; they’re with objects and goals and values and addiction.

            Leading up to and within my marriage, I ticked off every single box of BPD criteria. My highs were the highest of highs, to the point of utter elation; my lows were the lowest of lows, to the point of genuine suicide attempts. I idealized, I devalued, I saw only in black and white; I clung, I cried, I raged, I supported at any expense to myself (but also to the benefit of myself).

            I was discharged from the military for depression; I insisted then, as I will insist now, that depression wasn’t it. I was in a vocation of absolute control over my person, and my brain literally couldn’t cope with it. What I did experience was dissociation; for a solid three months, I looked through my eyes as though through a peephole. My experiences weren’t mine; they happened far away, through a fog, to another person who wasn’t me. It was so bad, and I understood it so poorly, that I thought my mind had become addled from all the drugs I was abusing at the time. I begged for help every chance I got, but no one could relate to it. The therapists at my mandatory sessions glued their eyes to their clipboards, dismissing my claims as “belligerence”. Then one day, my future ex-husband and I became engaged; the fog cleared instantly. I had plans for the future to focus on. I haven’t dissociated since.

            Apart from my short time in the military, which I could not simply quit from, I haven’t held a job for more than 8 months at a time–and that record was only set because my partner at the time was hellbent on me staying employed. I cannot handle the lack of control over my time, my efforts, my achievements. Incompetent, ass-wiping brown-nosers were heralded for their *superb* managerial potential; I was overlooked because I balked at every turn to running their positions for them. For focusing on customer satisfaction instead of the company’s bottom line. For not being an arrogant bossy dick-face to fellow employees as my one coworker did, who landed a managerial position shortly after I left, which caused several other coworkers to quit as well.

            I have anxiety issues with making money. Probably something to do with my parents’ neverending focus on it. I swore as a teenager I would never become them, never work in a cubicle, never put money before my children, never make my life about work. Now I would very much like to make more money, but I sabotage myself any chance I get because a convenient little anxiety attack or depressive episode pops up any time I start getting anywhere. My subconscious reigns supreme in that area. In a lot of areas, actually; I’m extremely prone to psychosomatic illnesses/issues. I even had a phantom pregnancy when I was 19, which I finally accepted only after four failed home tests and a failed blood test at a clinic. I’m now careful any time I look up symptoms of things, to curb any hypochondriac thinking or psychosomatic symptoms. I still have random unexplained aches and pains everywhere though. I’ve learned to ignore them; they’ll pass.

            I don’t know exactly what I have, but I have *something*. Otherwise, everyone around me wouldn’t treat me like the plague every time they get to know me. That’s a fact that can’t be overlooked. Regardless of one’s specific views on personality disorders even being a thing, there are some people that just don’t fit in to normal society. I am one of those people. I am alone wherever I go. I’m not sure what kind of picture people have gotten of me on here, but I assure you, in the real world, general society is repulsed by me, and I by them. There is no group I have ever fit into. If that’s not a sign of a “personality disorder”, which is judged against the “normalcy” of the rest of society’s population, then I don’t know what is. Society is the musician creating a symphony of beautifully complex sounds all working together; I am the toddler banging sporadically on the keyboard off to the side, trying their hardest to be involved but oblivious to how woefully inadequate they are at contributing meaningfully.

            This isn’t some sort of pity play. I don’t feel “bad” or “sad” or “insecure”. I feel frustrated and irritated. I want to fit in, but I can’t. I’m not doing something right. I may eventually, with enough effort. Or hell, maybe I’ll become a traveling hobo and make my own damn rules and say to hell with society. If it weren’t for my kids, I’d be there already. I’ve already whittled down all my possessions to the bare minimum and completed the necessary research. I’m so over playing the game. But I have to stay, I have to keep trying, until my kids move out. To support them, I have to make money. I have to play the game. I have to make nice with people I despise, with a society I don’t give a shit about. I have to belong to the rat race. After they move out…fuck it. Call it immaturity, but I just really don’t see the point in working every day of my life for nearly all my waking hours, just to have a place to sleep in–a place that ties me down to one spot, chains me to a lease agreement or mortgage, and removes any option to quit working. It’s a stupid cycle. I understand perfectly well why a society needs it to run. I just don’t see why I have to be a part of it. I believe traveling the country with nothing but a pack on my back is worth a thousand times any value I’d find working in some job under some ass clown who doesn’t know jack shit about what they’re doing. I would be free. Finally and truly free.

            Until then, I’m hoping a motorcycle will ease my taste for adrenaline and adventure. Just need the money from a job to pay off my debt and afford it 😉

            Idk. The alternative to the hobo idea is suicide. I won’t minimize the pain that people go through when contemplating it; I’ve been there. I know that pain. But I’m not in pain right now. I’m not depressed–not in that way. I’m simply…bored of life. There is nothing in it aside from my kids that interests me enough to want to stay. I’ve done my part and reproduced; I’m raising them to be as best adults as I can; I don’t see any other value I can really add or receive. I’m only including this part to give a fuller picture of who I am; it’s not a plea for help or anything. I’ve already made my decision, and I’ve got oodles of years before I can take the path of either hobo or suicide. I’ll just have to wait and see which one appeals to me most at that point. I think hoboing is the closest I’ll get to a real adventure, so I’ll most likely opt for that first. See where it takes me. There’re whole communities online for people who actually do it; their stories are wild. It’d be like living a fiction novel. To be honest, I’m really hoping for some sort of major apocalypse to upend the world–now THAT would be an adventure worth staying for!! But yeah…probably not going to happen…so just normal boring life it is. I think the whole idea of life is stupid. Live, reproduce, die, repeat. Try not to get too bored in the process.

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, I apologize for disappearing though I told you that I would get back to you. I have been distracted with many things that are happening in my life right now and I’m also out of the country at the moment so I don’t have much time to comment here. I have been reading your comments though; I am not an authority and of course have no direct contact with you and don’t know exactly what you are like in person and how you interact with people, but everything you say resounds to me as some type of antisocial disorder. It could be a mixture of BP and sociopathic or something else but it’s obvious you’re struggling to fit in while you also don’t give a shit about it. I don’t want to pretend I know what it’s going on and excuse me if it sounds like I’m getting nosey, not my intention. But I t seems very curious though that you care a lot about your kids and want the best for them. Is it love? Sense of responsibility? Regret? It’s clear you feel something, whatever it is, for them. You say you don’t want them to go through the same crappy upbringing you and your ex went through. That’s empathy.

          16. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            No worries! I know we all have the real world to get back to sometimes lol

            Let me ask you this:

            Do I love and care for my kids as separate, individual beings? Or do I see them as an extension of myself, my younger self, and by reviving my childhood but making it right this time, I’m effectively (in my mind) overwriting my own childhood story? Loving them not as themselves, but as miniature me’s?

            Did I plead earlier with Hope to have compassion for her parents because I desired to console her in any pain/confusion she might be feeling? Or when she described her parents, did I see her as describing me, with herself as my future adult kids, and I sought to defend myself?

            I don’t quite have the answers yet. Empathy has lately seemed like a hard thing to pin down. Maybe I feel it, maybe I don’t. I do know that the feelings of “relatedness” are strongest with my kids. I’m protective of them because I’m protective of myself. Idk. It’s hard to grapple with because I know how wrong society views that as, yet…I mean…it effectively doesn’t seem to be bad–if anything, it’s better–my parents never saw my sisters and I as individual people, and they forced us to follow the path they wanted. I now strive to give my kids absolute freedom of choice in their pursuits, and I celebrate any headway they make in personal endeavors, because that’s what I had wanted for myself. I’m happy for myself. But the outcome is that they get to be free individuals…that’s got to be a good thing, regardless of how I feel inside. In contrast to other narcissistic parents who see their kids as mini-me’s and force them into the very narrow path they would have wanted for themselves, the path I always wanted was wide-open freedom to be whomever I wanted to be, so that’s what I try to give.

            Look at me, still trying to be seen as the “good” guy lol. Like I said, the whole kid/parenting thing is a bit sensitive for me, so it’ll be the subject I’m most defensive of–even to my own self.

            Oh no, I welcome any insight anyone has to offer me, trust me–as long as there’s care taken with the parenting subject. ASPD?…Well, I have played around with that one. I do identify with some of its characteristics, probably a lot of them actually…but–okay, story time:

            I have a very dichotomous personality. There’s a half of me that is weak, wimpy, scared, anxious, always trying to get approval and feels hurt/pain at criticism. The other half of me is strong, arrogant, selfish, don’t-give-a-fuck, do-whatever-I-want. I’ve already showed a bit of that contrast on here; some answers show my strong side, others show my weak side (well, watered down versions of each). The divide is so clearly marked in my head that I actually considered at one point that I might have Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID; split personality disorder). It’s night and day, and I’ve seen the shocked faces of people when I make the switch. But I don’t black out and make a *true* switch or anything like that, so it’s probably not DID. But the three main personalities do talk within me–my weak side, I used to call her Amy, and I’ve always had compassion for her even though she’s exasperating. My strong side–he’s pretty dark, he’s always in the shadows, I don’t get to see what he looks like; mostly he just grumbles or whispers about shit and I’m always telling him to shut up cause I’m trying to be a good person. He’s pleased right now that I’m talking about him but he’s warning me that I probably sound pretty crazy right now. Heh. And then there’s me–I don’t know who I am. I guess I’m just the person in between the two, trying to keep things “normal” on the outside. I do a pretty good job, if I can say so myself. That I can recall, I don’t think I’ve ever discussed them out loud to anyone outside of anonymous forum boards. I think I appear pretty normal to people in real life.

            Um…so yeah lol I went into that because of the ASPD thing. Half of me is very ASPD; the other half, not so much. For instance, road rage. I’m very prone to it. My whole body gets fired up and I have to fight tooth and nail the urge to literally ram my car into another’s and run them off the road. I have the urge to destroy, to watch things burn, to watch assholes suffer. A lot of times I feel the overwhelming desire to beat the shit out of people cause they fucking annoy me; I imagine tearing them apart limb by limb and watching their anguished faces in delight. Raking my nails slowly down their face as blood comes forth, watching the terror in their eyes. But that would have serious ramifications…Ones I can’t afford to go through. It’s the fear of consequences that eventually calms me down. Anyways…But there’s also that weak side of me that appears to care. I think they care, anyway. Idk. When I come down off my rage, I don’t have the impulses anymore; I just have a desire to get away from the person as much as possible, just leave the whole thing be.

            Ummm yeah so when I was in the military, that’s when the two sides really became apparent to me. Wait, no–I’ll start in high school. So in, say, 11th grade or so, I had an advanced chemistry class. We were put in groups and given a list of questions and told we could use “any available resource” to get the answers, including off the Internet. Lo and behold, I found an online answer key that our teacher posted to a previous class years before, to the very questions we were given now. My group, who were all academic types, were understandably hesitant. But I brushed it off and said with devil-may-care that she’d most definitely said we could use anything we found, and that I was going to do it even if they wouldn’t. They decided to follow me, and we all used the answer key. Weeeeelllll I guess that didn’t sit well with our teacher cause she sent us all separately to the principal’s office. Shit. All I could think about was how my parents were going to punish me. My body was wracked with anxiety. I went into the office looking very much the part of crestfallen, morose straight-A student. Mind you, I *always* gave my best behavior to teachers; they were authority figures, and I wanted to be a “good” student. So I had a perfectly clear disciplinary record up to this point. But instead of berating me or giving me that horrible, stupid disapproving look people give, the principal *immediately* started defending me, to me–I didn’t even have to say a word! She started going on about how I was such a good student, and she knew I probably didn’t have any clue “they” had taken the answers from the online key, they were surely the dishonest ones and I had of course just followed them innocently wide-eyed. She said that I would only receive a minor slash to my grade for the assignment (to a C or something, I think), whilst everyone else would be getting 0’s. I couldn’t believe my luck. I nodded profusely, keeping up the pitiful facade, and walked out of there feeling on top of the world.

            In the military (same train of thought but the paragraph was getting too long), advanced individual training to be exact, I was given freedom for the first time in my life (what does that tell you about how controlling my parents were? lolz). I mostly acted however I wanted, doing whatever the hell pleased me. But then certain superiors, ones I respected and wanted to please, would catch me and I would feel hella guilty and ashamed. I couldn’t understand. Why did I seem to have these two personalities–one that didn’t give a shit about anything or anyone, and one that felt extreme anxiety/shame/guilt? Three if you count “me”, the middleman who tries to keep things normal. I still don’t know.

            As far as I’ve ever read, those with ASPD don’t feel guilt or shame. If we take away the one side of me, then yes, ASPD does apply. I don’t think rules should apply to me unless I determine they should and I don’t care about repercussions (very impulsive). But that other side of me *is* there, only coming out with certain authority figures, and I have no idea how to reconcile that with my view of myself.

            And all of it circles around anyway to the overlapping of disorders. ASPD is part of the Cluster B group of PD’s. As such, it has a lot in common with them. And they all have a high rate of comorbidity. So…again, I don’t know what the hell I have. Lol. Could be a bit of all of them–except Histrionic–or could be just one with traits of others.

          17. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            I’m feeling kinda stupid about that last post.
            I’m sorry.

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, why? I didn’t see anything stupid in it. I like how much you defend your kids and how you care to show them gestures of affection even though you say you don’t quite feel it.

          19. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            It looks like the post I’m referring to, didn’t pass moderation. That’s probably for the better, and I’m thankful.

            Basically, it was an extremely long reply that addressed your points about empathy and possible ASPD.

            To keep it short and g-rated this time….

            I have a lot deeper issues than I let on normally. It is possible that I do have ASPD.

            It is possible I feel empathy. But equally possible I don’t. Do I see my kids as individuals, or as extensions of my own self? I don’t know yet.

          20. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            It looks as though HG did pass my cringy oversharing comment. As much as it bothers me to have that out there, it does give a slightly deeper picture of who I am. It’s the one that includes stuff about personalities in my head, and the violent impulses I get that may be indicative of ASPD. Surely it didn’t post earlier than I thought and it was what you referred to as not that bad? I know everyone fantasizes from time to time but these are literally physical impulses that I have to stop myself from carrying out. A few weeks ago, I scratched the crap out of my arm in a fit because I was so mad at a situation that I couldn’t do anything about (without serious legal ramifications). When the rages come on and I’m trying to stop myself, I pace and pant and look like a crazy person cause I keep jerking my head to the side while shaking my hands out, as I fight the impulses.

            I haven’t actually done anything yet and I don’t intend to, the consequences are too high. But it’s still something I have to live with.

            Anyways. It’s neither here nor there. It might not matter what I actually have; HG’s site and everyone here have been exceptionally helpful regardless. Becoming more aware of myself is…power and control over myself. I know I’m not alone in that feeling. Revisiting the possibility of having ASPD has made me realize that I probably have several comorbid issues and there may not be a clear-cut answer like I was originally searching for. And I think I can accept that.

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, yes, I think that’s exactly what happened. I wasn’t referring to the comment you mention now but to another one, in fact, I can’t find your comment about your violent impulses. I have done self-harm in the past too as a reaction to situations that were completely out of my control, including starving myself to almost death. I understand those impulses. However, I don’t direct them toward people, but toward myself. Violence to other people makes me feel dizzy and sad. This past weekend I witnessed an incident of xenophobia on the train in London. A drunk older couple started screaming at a young man from Italy who was just visiting for the weekend. The old lady, who was holding a bottle of beer in her hand, asked the young man to move so that she could sit. The young man was not sure what she wanted so he just stared at her; the old husband pushed him away. At that moment I interceded and tried to explain in Italian she just wanted to sit down. The two guys started screaming at him and asking him: “Where are you from?? Go back to your country and speak your language there!” I felt incredibly sad and started crying and apologizing to the Italian guy for having to put up with that. And I tell you one thing: at that moment, I so wish I could feel rage and smash their fucking xenophobic asses in front of everyone. But instead of rage, I felt deep sadness and embarrassment. You must definitely have some sort of antisocial spectrum. I wish I could help you figure it out, I’m sorry I’m not much help with this but I’m good at listening (and better at reading). I’m glad you find this space comfortable to open up, Zielum.

          22. Hope says:

            Wow. SP. That’s an amazing story and share. Thank you. I have to admit you seemed a bit standoffish. A bit intolerant at times, but this post makes you appear very human and very admirable. I’m sure you are truly an empath now. I apologize if this offends you. I have paranoia due to my lack of boundaries and my over-trusting tendencies in the past. I just want to share my support for who you are. That’s awesome that you care about injustice to the degree you step in and express emotion on others behalf 👏

          23. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hope, I didn’t get offended. I am curious, though, what did I do to seem cold and intolerant to you? I’m asking because I don’t think we have ever interacted and I’m all for seeing the whole picture before trying to make a judgement on someone. I doubt you know much about me so far. One thing is true: if I were so cold, I wouldn’t have succumbed to an affair with the narc. I’m a love devotee.

          24. NarcAngel says:

            That interests me also. How the perception of someone is formed here in print. It can be the content of the comments for some, the style of the communication for others, a judgement based on the situation they describe themselves to be in, a comparative to someone in real life that they like or dislike. Even avatars apparently affect some. It’s just really interesting to me how much our perception of others can be based on what we project onto them about our feelings and experiences as opposed to what is actually said, although not surprising given the reason most of us are here.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t know I don’t know. I definitely learned through the narc experience appearances are deceiving. Appearances could also present themselves in the shape of words, not just looks. It’s true I don’t exude affection in what I write; probably I sound very cocky in some comments. I want to think I wasn’t explicitly unfriendly but affection is something I demonstrate more in person, in fact I’m very physical: I kiss and hug and cry a lot. I don’t kiss ass. That’s something I see as humiliating. I don’t flatter in excess either. That’s why I’m not “A” grade supply. And I am perfectly happy about that. I sound arrogant if I like and know about the topic of discussion and I am straightforward if I have to call out something I don’t believe to be fair. I have a lot of bad traits but so do you and you and you. Just by sounding sweeter and mellower doesn’t mean automatically you’re a better person. Beware of super nice people! I fell for one, and he was a narc. But I don’t dislike anyone in the blog. I have disliked certain responses and interactions and I avoid threads that become problematic. I am aware the personalities in real life are very different. Having said that, I’m aware you can’t be liked by everybody; you’re not an orgasm 😂

          26. Hope says:

            Some of your earlier responses to zielum seemed abrupt and dismissive. I was concerned.

          27. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Concerned about what?

          28. Mercy says:

            Sweetest Perfection, Just so you know, I’ve never thought of you as standoffish or harsh. I don’t think Hope’s first impression of you is the norm.

          29. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you, Mercy! I actually like the word “standoffish,” I wasn’t familiar with it. For someone who is usually called a hot head, it sounds kind of cool to be perceived as a cold, detached mafia queen haha. I’m the boss, I’m impassible… sigh, I wish I was sometimes!

          30. Mercy says:

            SweetP, I think you could pull off mafia queen! You’re pretty bad ass.

            I was reading your story yesterday about what happened on the train. That sucks and I’m sorry you experienced it. I actually think your reaction of sadness over the situation is very similar to a person that would react with rage. Both feelings stem from the injustice of the situation. If I was in the situation, I know my first reaction would be anger. The poor guy had every right to be where he was like anyone else on that train, and who do these people think they are? I can be angry and stand up for the person while in a situation like that, but once I’m by myself I feel the extreme sadness for the person the injustice was directed toward. Just like now, you feel anger toward the people that caused the injustice.

            Violence on the other hand is a completely different story. People don’t usually react with violence to a situation like that unless they are violent people in general. If that is the case, the violence isn’t to serve justice for the guy on the train, its just a bunch of assholes that want to kick each others ass.

            Im just glad you were there because that guy probably was confused and also a little relieved that you were able to help. That’s worthy of the mafia queen title.

          31. Mercy says:

            Haha SweetP, I just realized I totally made up harsh and standoffish. She said abrupt and dismissive. Man I live in Mercyland sometimes. Well you’re none of those thing regardless. Unless you want to be standoffish. You seemed to like that one. You can be whatever you want to be. Wait, is that a pointless platitude?

          32. Sweetest Perfection says:

            No no no, you didn’t make up standoffish, Hope did say I seemed so. But I reclaim it now, it’s mine! I want it haha. I truly hope Hope comes back and I hope my latest comment to her gets out of moderation, because I want her to know that I am grateful for the other things she said about me and that I’m not at all mad or offended. With regards to the train incident, what makes me sadder and in the aftermath, really mad, is that I was the only person to react in the whole train. No one did anything or seemed to care. And about violence in general: I dated a guy once who turned out to be abusive. He beat me one time. That was the last time he did. He didn’t expect me to fight back. I promised myself I wouldn’t be violent ever again in my life but I fought back and I would do it again to save my life. So yes, maybe I’m a little bit of a bad ass hahaha. Thank you, Mercy!

          33. Sweetest Perfection says:

            ***hot head as in temperamental and passionate, thought not belligerent. Like I said before, I am allergic to violence.

          34. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hope, I wasn’t dismissive to Zielum. I don’t know what exchange of comments you read but we had a very civil and cordial dialogue. Zielum even thanked me a couple of times and so did I for opening up. I got caught up in a professional obligation and two trips right in between and have been absent for a couple of weeks, when I came back to the blog I may have sounded too succinct and straight to the point but I didn’t have the freedom to type a lot at the moment, though I thought I owed Zielum a response like I promised. I hardly ever forget anything. So I commented back as fast as I could. I apologized for the way I did. I have been commenting in the blog since last December 2018. HG describes Carrier empaths as empaths that are not too overflowing with explicit expressions of emotions and fuel, though we express it in a more functional and practical manner, maybe that’s why you thought I was dismissive? I don’t think my personality could be defined in a couple of comments to just one person. In any case, your previous comment to me was really sweet and didn’t mean to aggravate or create conflict, believe me that I’m not mad at all or offended. I thank you for saying you find me admirable… ahhh, I am not. I’m full of shit like everyone else. For example, I can’t stop playing that scene on the train in my mind again and again, thinking I could have been braver or more heroic. I just tried to help with what I had, my knowledge of the language, but I don’t think it was enough to exercise justice. Let me introduce myself, Hope. My name is not SP. I am a standard Carrier, Dirty, probably marriage breaker, empath. I hate violence in general, but especially towards minorities, kids, animals, and the environment. For better and for worse. I have good traits and awful ones. Just like all empaths.

          35. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh, oh!!! HAPPY 2020 EVERYONE! It’s already New Year in my original country! Happy narc-free year to all of you and happy new year to the only narc who helps us, the one and only! HG, I hope you have a super duper successful year ahead!

          36. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Happens to me too, I usually hit ‘ctr + f’ on desktop or ‘find in page’ on mobile browsers to find some snippet of the comment I’m looking for (a word other comments most likely won’t have). You should be able to find the comment I mean by searching “blood”, “terror”, or “nails”.

            Mm I don’t typically feel the violent urges at things like that…Instead, I feel strong and powerful when I’m in protection mode. I get this buzzed feeling all over, my mind goes immediately clear and laser-focused, and my body language/posture instantly transforms into somebody very, VERY sure of themselves and willing/capable of follow-through. I certainly act threatening/intimidating (despite my small size and child-like features), even menacing, and I definitely have no problem with follow-through if need be. But I’m not actively trying to physically hurt someone in that mode. It’s posturing, first and foremost. Interestingly, my cleverest, most biting and searing barbs come out in this mode. My mind’s so clear that I know exactly what to say and how to say it. It’s like a superpower lol

            The violent urges are when I’m being personally hurt/disadvantaged in some way, and I feel like I have no control to change the situation. This was triggered way too often post-divorce with my ex (he’s got a few strong narc adaptations), when he would use the kids against me for guilt trips and power plays, knowing they’re my absolute everything. Knowing I couldn’t do anything about it. Knowing it would work me into a rage, and making me rage made him feel in control. Yeah…I don’t need to overshare the details again…but let’s just say he’s very lucky I have as much self-control as I do.

            The fit I mentioned about scratching my arm, that was do to with a work situation where I was in my car and if I hadn’t redirected it to my arm, it would have been me destroying the inside of my car, or worse, attempting to smash in a store window on camera where a manager inside was completely ignoring me. I managed to stop myself because I was afraid of being carted off by the police. But after scratching up my arm and realizing there could be a camera that caught it, I was afraid I’d be carted off by an ambulance, drugged and stuffed in a padded cell. Both are a threat to my freedom (prison’s probably easier to get out of). Did you know you can claim to the police (without any proof) that someone you know is a danger to themselves, and they’ll obtain a court order to *involuntarily* commit that person to a hospital and possibly a drug regimen, keeping them until they’re certain the person conforms to an NT picture of health? That’s the most terrifying shit I’ve ever heard. Being suicidal is, for all intents and purposes, a crime….it’s fucking scary. And everyone will look at you as if they’re so concerned, telling you it’s what’s best for you, while your mind disappears into the fog of the drugs, and you finally break down into compliance…Eh that’s a tangent, only loosely related. Suicide is far, far from my mind when I’m in a rage. But the resulting self-harm out of not wanting to fuck up certain areas of my life, could be misinterpreted by “well-meaning” others. I’m mistrustful, to say the least.

            On that note…I took the liberty of completing around eight different online tests (from as many different organizations) for personalty disorders/traits, tests suggested by other diagnosed individuals in my FB PD groups (I rejoined a few). While by no means scientific or definitive, the similar results I received across all the tests suggests at least some degree of accuracy. It would appear that I have high traits in all three PD clusters–A, B, and C. Highest seem to be Paranoid, Avoidant, Antisocial, Schizoid/Schizotypal, Narcissistic, and Borderline.

            There’s a well-respected psychologist (Elinor Greenberg) who believes there’s no such thing as comorbid PDs–rather, you have one main one, and then possibly some defenses/adaptations of another. If that is the case, then only one out of that list is my primary PD, and all the rest are secondary adds. I’m looking for the one that most describes how I am underneath everything–not necessarily what pops up situationally. As far as that goes, Avoidant and Schizoid feel the most “core me” (I don’t have a solid sense of self). As much as I talk on here, I avoid most interactions in real life. I’m constantly daydreaming–probably to stave off the sense of boredom I feel constantly, as well as the lack of stimulation in my day-to-day life. But most of my opinions are self-centered and negativistic, and I’m certainly not indifferent to criticism.

            Idk. It doesn’t feel as important right now. I had thought that my narc traits meant I was NPD–now, I’m not so sure. But I don’t feel…discontent about not knowing exactly where I fit. I have a bunch of traits. I prefer to look at that as a good thing–well-rounded lol. Someday I’ll get a therapist to diagnose me properly.

            I’m glad you were able to stand up to that couple. I get frustrated when people sit by and let things slide.

          37. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, can you believe I just found out your reply to my latest comment? For some stupid reason, I don’t get all notifications anymore and to top it all, if I do they all go to this new magical file called “promotions.” Word Press is like Wonderland, nothing works logically. That thing about other people being able to accuse you of being a danger to yourself and how quickly the authorities would believe them without questioning is freaking scary! I am actually not fond of regular doctor visits, mine is obsessed with natural supplements and is always recommending some new shit that I lie about taking but I never do. I suspect he has a deal with the natural store or something, no regular human can take so much natural crap on a daily basis. Beware of online self-diagnoses too. According to 4 online tests I took recently, I am 86% Machiavellian, 40% being enough to be diagnosed hahaha. Hahahahaha aaaaa!!! (I’m trying to sound evil, given my results lol).

          38. Sweetest Perfection says:

            But in all seriousness now, I care about you finding out about yourself. I know it is important to you to get to know how to manage your emotions and to understand yourself better. Like you, I hope you find someone serious and knowledgeable enough to nail your diagnose and help you uncover so many questions. In many interviews to HG, one of the topics they usually discuss is precisely how little the medical community really knows about Cluster B and Narcissism in particular. No wonder why it is not easy if the people we trust to help are not prepared well. I hope you find out soon, though.

          39. zielum says:

            It’s all good lol I’ve been keeping myself preoccupied in the meantime; I joined in some PD FB groups again (for NPD, ASPD, and Schizoid). The convos there are great–we can speak freely about our PDs/traits without fear of backlash, and also without actively hurting people for the most part. Everyone’s self-aware to some degree, and many are trying to become less toxic. They’re all mixed groups too, so we’ve got handfuls of empaths/NTs who are there to learn our side of things and see how they can improve their relationships with a PD person in their life. Not to say things are…”nice/considerate/civil” like they are on here, don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of shit-talking and such. But we do all try to keep things informational/educational/introspective, rather than straight bitching; I think that’s why the empaths/NTs stick around.

            Anyways. Yeah…I feel a lot better at realizing I have strong traits of several different PDs, I kept trying to fit myself into a small box yet there was always some outlying behavior/motivation that didn’t fit right. I’m okay with that now; I don’t need a set-in-stone label. Having the different traits actually helps me to control the severity of each one individually. For example, my Schizoid side keeps me away from people by and large, meaning I’m not out in the world harming people and messing up my life like I would be if I were prone to socializing.

            Yeah my bio mom, who I’m not too fond of, she told me she’s a “ward of the state” or something like that because she’s been deemed a “danger to herself”. So she has her freedom limited “for her sake”. The control freak, freedom-loving side of me can’t even comprehend being in that situation. So I’m paranoid now with what I share about myself. Aside from financial limitations, it’s half the reason I don’t seek help. Guess their idea of “help” isn’t very helpful. It’s a big reason I firmly believe in the right to suicide (gasp, I know). If a person has exhausted all efforts to improve their lives, and they’re at a point of logic instead of emotion, I think anyone and everyone should have the power to end their life if they choose. I highly resent the government forcing people to stay alive against their will “for their own good”. No…it’s for *your* good. If you cared, genuinely cared, about the suicidal person, you’d help them in any way you could, and then let them make the decision on their own. Ugh. Okay, rant over lol.

            Yeesh, yeah, I’m glad you’re able to put your foot down about the supplements despite his pressure, while simultaneously appeasing him. Gotta look out for yourself sometimes.

          40. Hope says:

            Sorry to keep butting into your convo..

            I truly believe you may just not have found “your people” yet. People who accept you for you. I think traveling is a great idea for you — and please don’t limit yourself to the US! Don’t disqualify the whole world based on your current and previous environment. Other cultures may suit your personality and preferences quite suitably. Do you qualify for space-a? I also think you could write books. Both fact and fiction. Maybe that’s a calling you could consider. I enjoy reading your contributions greatly.

          41. zielum says:


            I would love to write books 🙂 Been trying to for a while, actually; just gotta get my crap together lol. I’ll be sure to share if I ever do.

            Hmm I hadn’t thought about space-a. I’ll have to see if their requirements allow for dependents of prior service…Although I doubt I count as a dependent anymore since we’re divorced. It’s worth looking into though; thank you!

          42. SMH says:


            Maybe you are being a bit hard on yourself, including in believing that you are some sort of pariah or that your issues are unusual. It sounds to me like you don’t want any ‘adult’ responsibilities. Lots of people don’t and have figured out ways to wriggle out of real estate, families, jobs, and yes, kids. Maybe you are under pressure because of your kids. Maybe they are also a source of boredom for you, in part because they remind you of all of your responsibilities. It wouldn’t be that unusual. Nor is it unusual to rail against authority (military, bosses, spouses – anyone you have to answer to). It sounds to me a bit immature but by no means completely out in left field. You will eventually figure out a way to have your cake and eat it, to both live the life you want and to raise your kids.

            Have you considered bipolar? I know you think you have a personality disorder and maybe you do but when you mentioned the high highs and the low lows, bipolar came to mind for me. Have you tried any psych meds? Just curious as to whether you did and they had any effect. Could be chemical rather than structural.

          43. zielum says:



            There are a lot of things I leave out on here usually. I think all of us put up a filtered version of ourselves to others. My filter has to hold back a lot. I’m not disagreeing that you might be right, just…idk. I’m not around people enough to know what’s normal, I guess. I just know how the population avoids me.

            I would’ve agreed that it could be Bipolar, except that my last boyfriend happened to have it, and I got to see what the manic/depressive cycles look like firsthand. I don’t have it….Keeping a long story short, the biggest indicator is that my highs and lows had environmental triggers, and would generally last a few hours. With Bipolar, the cycles are less dependent on environmental triggers, and last a few days or longer. And his manic episodes weren’t exactly “ecstatic” feelings, like mine used to be; they were just high-energy, like a few too many espressos.

            They gave me psych meds in the military but I ended up crushing them all and snorting them after I decided after a few weeks that they didn’t work….soooo….lol. I was 19 and stupid. My ex has tried to help me by giving me some of his meds. I tried his SSRI’s, but no matter how small a dose I took, it wigged my brain out too much. It was almost like the caffeine overdoses I’ve had before (…which, btw, of all the overdoses I’ve ever had…I do NOT recommend a caffeine one! Worst. Experience. Ever). I tried to keep at it (I know they take a long time to work and periods of initial adjustment are common) but even when it felt “settled”, I still couldn’t sleep well. And this was across any of the ones he gave me, all of them SSRI’s. So whatever problem it is that those ones are supposed to solve, I don’t think it’s my issue. Idk.

            Mostly I try to self-medicate. Currently it’s nicotine. I figure it’s less disruptive than any other option. But it’s not that effective. If I had my choice–the one thing that really, truly made me feel good–Oxy. I was given some for my chest surgery. Trying to get it illegally is way too much of a bother, but I cherish each time I have a chest revision and am given those for the pain. It makes me feel…content. Happy. Good. Like…wow. Not high or anything. Mind is still perfectly clear. Just…light. Airy. Breezy. Content. For someone who’s anxious and bitter all the time, I can’t even begin to describe the weight that was lifted off my shoulders. Le sigh.

          44. SMH says:

            zielum, I know someone who was treated for awhile for bipolar but it turned out to be extreme anxiety. I also had a partner who was bipolar, so I am somewhat familiar with these issues. Maybe you are and maybe you are not (probably not) but you are self-medicating, which again sounds to me like a chemical imbalance. In your position, I would go to a doctor and try different meds until I found one that worked and didn’t leave my head all fuzzy. No one is going to give you a maintenance dose of Oxy 🙂 but there are milder things that might help and are not SSRIs. If you could get your moods under control, you would have a much better sense of how your life should go and what, if anything, is structurally wrong with your head. Worth a try!

          45. zielum says:


            True that.

            For what it’s worth, I don’t experience the mood swings anymore of extreme high to extreme low, not for several years, since the divorce when I began self-introspecting (and taking testosterone). Now it’s just neutral/nothingness to bitterness/rage. With anxiety permeating everything. So whatever I need…Idk, I’m kind of afraid of becoming a zombie. Without the anger, that leaves only nothingness.

          46. SMH says:

            zielum, I am not a psychiatrist but if anxiety is permeating everything, you should take care of that before you deal with whatever else might be wrong. The nothingness could be a defense mechanism due to the anxiety – extreme control of your feelings? I am guessing your dopamine is low because releasing dopamine with nicotine and opiates is classic. I would be surprised if you did NOT have a chemical imbalance.

          47. zielum says:


            Thank you; I’ll look into low dopamine as a possible cause/contributor, and what I can do about it. It would be nice to genuinely feel happy about something, anything, again.

          48. SMH says:

            zielum, Good. I hope you can get the help you need to bring some joy into your life.

          49. Hope says:

            Z. Wow. I enjoyed reading this. I have a lot of intellectual curiosity surrounding topics like these as I have no idea what my deal is either. I like reading about your discoveries, as it allows me to self-reflect as well. I can find myself identifying with a lot of the types you describe–but then find I have one disqualifying factor, empathy and a desire to connect. Then, I wonder, maybe my desire to connect is related to my not being able to connect? Lol. Maybe the feelings of connection in my past were all illusion. Both my parents have a hard time truly connecting to anyone and each other. They lack emotional depth to the degree I think I have it. So even though I felt a connection to my parents, it wasn’t as full, and they may not have felt it at all or as deep as I did. Thanks for the food for thought.

          50. zielum says:


            No problem!

            So, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I don’t much care for involving my parenting in discussion boards such as this. It’s a touchy subject for me. But your reply kinda…got me. So I’ll say this…

            I worry about my parenting constantly. It never leaves my mind. It’s the sole reason I’m still around. If I have one job on this Earth, it’s to raise my kids so they aren’t as fucked up as I am. They don’t necessarily have to be “good” people, or even “successful”…but if I can prevent them from emotional/inner turmoil, if I can raise them to where they are content with life as adults…mission accomplished. It’s the only thing I can do to make up for the shitstorm that was my childhood. A big fuck-you to the universe.

            Despite all that…My ex-husband and I (we live together and co-parent)…neither of us connects easily. We don’t know how; we were both emotionally neglected and abused as kids. He and I are very similar in so many ways. We both had shitty upbringings, we both have only a single mission in life: our kids. Our kids, despite our crappiness, are turning out okay. They both have emotions, they both can connect with others, they both love us to pieces. It’s so hard because I want to be there for them emotionally, but I’m like a brick wall to their flowing rivers. I try to smile and laugh at the right times, to give them hugs when they need it, to think of the right words to say to console them. I know that someday, they’ll see through it, and I’ll have to answer some tough questions. Questions about love and caring. And the only answer I’ll be able to give is that I love and care for them in the only way I know how, and certainly more than anyone else on this planet. I worry that it won’t be enough. I worry that they’ll choose partners as emotionally unavailable, as distant, as their parents. I worry that I’ll fail in my mission; I worry that I’ll fail them.

            I don’t know what kind of relationship you had with your parents, but if they seemed loving despite their inability to connect, please don’t think it was an illusion. They may have been trying their hardest despite their flaws. Some parents–like my own–not only couldn’t connect, but couldn’t give a rat’s ass about trying to, either. If you feel that there was at least an “illusion” of connectedness, then it sounds like your parents at least tried. I think that amounts to a great deal of caring on their part.

            Did your parents try to make up for it in any way, like with physical touches? (A type of love language). I find that much easier, so I ruffle my kids’ hair a lot, or give hugs, or kiss their foreheads, or pick them up, or give them footrubs (kids appreciate that as much as adults, apparently lol). My ex, he’s told me his love language was little gifts–the one kindness his parents always gave was buying him some of the little candies at checkout of a grocery store. So that’s how he tries to connect with the kids: Little trinkets/candies here and there.

            If you haven’t looked into them yet, I highly suggest researching the love languages and figuring out what yours are. Your version of “connection” just might look different than the usual. It’s *extremely* useful information to have within a relationship when your love languages don’t match and neither of you can understand why the other doesn’t appreciate your personal show of love and care. I now buy my ex little candies every once in a while, and know that he’s showing me his care when he buys them for me (even if I’d personally prefer a close cuddle or a long philosophical discussion).

          51. Hope says:

            Hello Zielum,

            Sorry for the delay in response. I am in online college and come here for a distraction so I don’t always have time to give the attention a reply would require.

            I really enjoyed reading your response. It’s so wonderful that you are intentionally putting your kids first as a big “fuck you!” to the world. I struggle with perfectionism in school, maybe you put a lot of pressure on yourself, as well, but in parenting. It’s so cool how you intellectually understand how to care for their emotional health even though it’s not an emotional instinct or pattern you could follow subconsciously as you never were taught that growing up.

            What is funny about how you mentioned the book regarding love languages is that a narc I was DLS-ing with at the time told me I should also read it after I noticed it in his room and he mentioned his wife wanted him to read it with her. I did end up reading it years later when I happened upon it. My primary love languages are quality time and physical touch. The primary ways I show love are all of them, lol. But I guess quality time and touch would be top as well, followed by acts of service, gifts, and words of affirmation. The book mentioned most men want to be loved with words.

            My parents showed love differently. My mom used gifts to win our affection/gain control, she has an inability to be truly intimate in quality time or focus her attention and really listen or empathize as she doesn’t really connect with her own emotions well. My dad wanted to spend time with us in any way that was free as he had his own issues with money being a sensitive place (money to him equaled control over his own life so he was very controlling about money). Both parents were dsyfunctional in their own ways that sort of evened things out at times. I remember hating each at different points for their inability to understand or relate, often saying to myself, or to them, “I hate you and if you get divorced I want to live with the other parent and never see you again”, as a way to try to get them to understand the depth of the pain I felt and the dysfunction they created. They did divorce and it turned out better when they were together due to them balancing each other out. I ended up moving from house to house as a result owing to my tolerance being reached in the category of their dysfunction (my mom in her lack of boundaries and need to control even when it harms me and makes no sense ie: you can’t work but I’m not paying for your college. My dad in his inability to spend money resulting in a house with too much stuff due to mild hoarding and lack of ability to buy new things leading to lower quality of life than with other parent but full control of myself ie: I could work and have a life without question). I love the good they did and tell them that but avoid talking about the bad once I realized they won’t ever change. I do truly love them even though I hated them at times as a kid. I just make sure I have boundaries now, which is really hard for me. I think it’s great you are trying and that you’re both trying. I don’t think there is a perfect family out there so don’t be too hard on yourself or your mate. As long as you’re both trying and invested you two are likely the best case scenario even if it’s slightly dysfunctional due to the lack of true love demonstration between you two. My parents didn’t love each other either and it made no difference other than it was word on Valentine’s Day when they didn’t do anything romantic for each other which raised questions in a child’s understanding of adult love.

            I learned all that in movies and was able to live easily despite having no example in real life to follow. I did learn bad habits from movies though. As they are narcissistic views of love I learned thanks to the site. But they really did share my beliefs. I know this because things I thought were my own ideas I said or did or felt in relationships I saw in older movies/tv shows I happened across watching again from the library on deployment not realizing I already watched them ages ago. So you can’t even be sure your kids won’t be influenced even if you are the perfect example.

            Your actions towards your kids seem really wonderful and loving to receive, even if you don’t feel it. Love isn’t something you always feel, it’s often a choice and a commitment you make and they will love you more for that when they grow older and realize it wasn’t natural, not less.

          52. Dr. Harleen Quinzel, PsyD. says:


            You’re not worthless. You’re only worthless in your mind because you believe inside you are. Not everyone is gonna understand you or accept you – fuck them…

            Don’t just be what people want you to be. The thing is I’m all about self-acceptance. It is important though that you practice strengthening that cognitive empathy and sometimes going thru the motions a bit (if you don’t feel the empathy and the urge to be supportive to friends). If you value a person I would think about what the “nice” thing to do would be and go with it if the person would do it for you. This is if you value the person and the relationship.

            It’s important to find people that do accept you for who you are and who you can be yourself around.

            Reciprocity in friendships and relationships is key. I would consider if you are putting effort into these relationships and I totally realize sometimes people will take more than they give at different points buttttt if the norm is you take more …….. then we’ll I would think about that

          53. zielum says:

            Dr. HQ, PsyD.,

            Thank you.

            I haven’t had a real friendship since my Army days, 10 years ago now. I’ve made efforts to make new ones since then, but that’s off-topic…I haven’t had a romantic relationship since realizing my narcissistic side. With each past relationship, at the time, I always felt I was “doing my best” and that things “just didn’t work out”. It’s entirely possible I was taking more than I was giving. I would have to go through another one and observe the way it goes.

            I think my cognitive empathy is pretty alright…well….idk. I understand and can easily recognize when people are feeling certain ways. I can read faces/body language like no tomorrow. It’s the interpretation of it that trips me up–and what to do about their emotions if they don’t involve me. I try to say the right words but it always sounds bland and wrong to me–I’d prefer to genuinely “feel” the emotions behind my words, and it kinda irritates me that I can’t really feel anymore. Kinda like a drug you were once addicted to but no longer have access to, y’know? And you keep getting reminded that everyone else gets to have it but you don’t. But yeah, my last bf had severe anxiety, and even though I experience strong anxiety as well, I couldn’t for the life of me feel any sort of empathy for him. It just kept annoying me that he wasn’t listening to my advice and therefore the problem couldn’t be solved (which resulted in him not being able to spend time with me, or devote more time to my own problems).

            You’re right though; putting more effort into “going through the motions” would probably help. Maybe I should watch more romance movies to get the hang of what I should do lol. Nearly all the guys I pick aren’t the touchy-feely type and my parents were completely hands-off in the emotional department. I’ll havta pay more attention to that from now on.

            Thinking back to previous relationships, I tend to always believe I’m right, as well. That’s probably off-putting. I have made gains recently though in efforts to listen to the other person and think about what they said and their perspective. It’s hard but I think it’ll pay off eventually. It’s probably an issue of short-sightedness. I’m not interested and don’t care, so I tend to ignore what people are actually saying, but that is no doubt what’s sabotaging my long-term goals. Hm.

  5. Emextraordinaire says:

    Sprinkles…spot on.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, manipulation is accurate.

      1. Emextraordinaire says:

        Yes. Manipulation. You are correct!

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Emextraordinaire says:

        Wow, I need to catch up! Fours days off leaves one behind in this world!

      3. Emextraordinaire says:

        Gosh this thread is ongoing! And I am behind with reading all… four days off with family of many narcs… . I just wanted to thank you, HG & all of you for truly enlightening me & truly helping me to find some calm in this narcissistic storm! The dpix post just woke us all up… for a bit of fun, in an narcissistic way. I hope and know we can navigate through these tides together. I appreciate all of you who share… it is a hard to do!!!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      4. MB says:

        Can it be “narc glitter” instead of “narc sprinkles”, HG? Ooh..ooh..I know! The sprinkles & glitter manipulations! I’m pushing my luck, I know. Really just trying to get consigned to the dungeon. The bed time stories there are worth it, although they’ve gotten a bit spooky as of late 😬

    2. Emextraordinaire says:

      “Now, as you all know, you are the crazy one in this dynamic. After all, we invariably smear you to other people labelling you as a lunatic abuser or we tell the new prospect we are seducing that the ex is a psycho. Most of the time these are lies,…”
      So true, repeated to IPPS to IPPS etc

  6. AnneB says:

    Have neither received or ever sent. It would be over with anyone who decided to send me genitalia/muscles/bare chest show off pics and such like unsolicited. The act of soliciting such pics would also mean bye bye. I would never send unsolicited and would not solicit. In online dating days of past I vaguely recall one individual who I was texting with, prior to arranging an IRL meetup. After a while he tried to make the convo sexual at which point I expressed my surprise that he would think it ok to ask me such a personal question when we had not even met and were virtual strangers only beginning to get to know each-other. I then deleted him (cannot recall if I waited for a response, but my question was rhetorical – it was a deal breaker).

  7. Barbara-Ann Deakin says:

    Only Dicks send pics…😂😂

  8. Cyn says:

    I woke up having a bad morning after a couple days of finding random cards from narc 2 stuck in the back of dressers, in old journals (I got to see the first devaluation happening by my writing). So I decided to start studying. THen I was bored with it and needed a break so I got on here to visit with my favorite people and discuss dicks. Or pics. lol

    1. Chihuahuamum says:


  9. Cyn says:

    I checked a bunch of choices. It has depended on the situation. Unsolicited dick pics from a particular friend got him unfriended because it was a second offense and I had told him not to previously. Unfortunately it was a friend of about 20 years. The other asses that sent them were scolded first, then blocked. But if I am engaged in flirting with someone I will be upfront and ask. With my narc (2) we had been in contact for about a week and I asked him to send a pic, he sent a full nude with a full hard on. I really had wanted a face pic lol. On Fet I won’t even respond to anyone with a dick on their profile pic.

  10. Evangeline says:

    Hysterically funny, lmao last night! Yes, MR narc (elite?) persuaded me to do something along these lines. But a different question:whereas I don’t answer his attempts at contact (it’s been 2.5 months) he does come up with a variety of hoover maneuvers, and I have been saving them in case of legal need. Anyway, today’s hoover says he “prays for me every day”. Huh? Help me here? Please, HG, tell me it is a lie. This guy is not a pray-er. Is he trying to con me into thinking I’m inferior enough to need praying 4? (Sure we can all use a few prayers, but consider the source…)

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He is seeking to provoke you into a response by appearing to care. You should implement a no contact regime.

  11. Soon to be sparkling! says:


    So, last night I went to an engagement party for my beautiful friend and it was pretty much a girls only event. The males that were present were darn good sports.

    So we are at the pub and one of the girls is on ‘tinder’. She was laughing about how many men will easily send her those type of pictures.

    She started passing her phone around and challenged us all to strike up a conversation, one by one with a new man and try to get a picture of. ……

    Hmmm, I could not help but think of this article and I actually had a go.

    So, in about 30 seconds I received my first (and last) picture of someone’s …..

    Everyone was laughing like hyenas and I have to say that I did feel guilty talking someone into doing that. He did it so easily too. I was shocked. Also shocked at myself for taking part in it. I was drunk. But it was still a crappy thing to take part in. And laughing about it all was even crappier. Anyway, I was most shocked that they come in that size in real life! Wtf??? Who knew?? I turned scarlet and everyone there laughed even harder as it’s nothing new to this group of misfits, but it was certainly new to me!

    I’ve had an intimate life that none of them would ever believe, but when it comes to social media behaviour, I’m well behind the 8-ball!

    Anyway, it made me think of all you guys and this place and it gave the kind of laughing that makes your cheeks hurt and your stomach muscles ache. I don’t think I would have participated in that activity if I hadn’t of just read about it here.

    So technically, all you rascals accidentally inspired some behaviour! And boy, was it fun!

    1. Mercy says:

      STBS, Don’t feel guilty. The type of men that send pics like that have no shame. Congrats on your first dick pic!! Haha is that the appropriate thing to say?

      1. Soon to be sparkling! says:

        Hahahaha Mercy!

        Thank you! I’ll take that congratulations 😜

      2. EmP says:

        Mercy, you are funny!

  12. zielum says:

    I’m female-to-male transgender, and I’m into guys, so I consider myself gay. I’m quite welcomed on Grindr. Loooots of unsolicited dick pics, but I don’t mind. I don’t get aroused by pictures like that, so it’s more of a clinical approach to deciding if they’re worth the hookup or not. I often forget to give them a compliment on their pic (guys tend to be sensitive that way); I’m getting better though! I’m more of a…I forget the term…but I’m attracted to intelligence and assertiveness moreso than looks. Age doesn’t matter if those boxes are checked–ideal is the 30-45 year range though (I’m later 20’s). Oh I also worked full time as an escort, plenty of dick pics there. I didn’t get to be picky with IQ and temperament but the age range made things interesting (yes, I’ve bedded grandpas; one of them was one of only a tiny handful who’ve ever made me cum).

    As far as significant others? Meh, I’ve only really had one major one, my ex-husband, and he wanted pics all the time as he was away from home a lot. I gave them but I always used to hate doing it…it felt dirty at the time. That was a long time ago, before Grindr and escorting, where “sexy” pics are routinely expected of me. I don’t really care anymore. It’s just my body. I care more now about my personhood being exploited. I mean, c’mon, I’ve willingly posted nude pics of me on the Internet for everyone to see lol If my ex sends my pics somewhere, it just is what it is I guess. I’ve already mentally prepared in case friends/family see my public pics and escort posts.

    1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear zeilum,
      It was most brave of you to share your story lovely one
      I’m well aware of Grindr and the LGBT community
      I know the struggles they already deal with
      I’m not shocked by nudity, as we are all born with the same
      Sex power n money is what makes the world go round …..always has been and always will be
      You sound strong of mind, I only hope you have full support of your family and friends
      Always stay true to yourself and those who love you will stay true to you
      Keep safe always and thank you
      Deep down you do care
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Bubbles says:

        Oops, just read it, my apologies, ….zielum ….auto correct

      2. zielum says:


        Lol no, I don’t. I know you’re coming from a place of genuine caring and I appreciate that; therefore, I’ll try not to be too harsh. This topic is a sore spot for me.

        Disclaimer, I am not an empath. I’m not sure yet what I am, but I am on this site for reasons other than that.

        I love escorting. The only reason I’m not doing it currently is because my paranoia has grown about the illegality of it. I have *zero* moral qualms about selling sex. I believe it takes a certain set of traits to feel this way about it but I won’t get into all that. Just know that there are some of us out there who do not connect sex and love, or soul-binding, or whatever it is you’re supposed to feel with it. There’s probably something broken in my system but honestly, I don’t care; can’t miss what you’ve never had.

        But I’ve certainly run into enough people who do feel that sex and love or bonding or whatever are inescapably tied. These kinds of people try to preach to me that I’m morally wrong, that I’m messed up, that I’m a victim.

        I am anything but a victim. I was making literally thousands of dollars a month with escorting. There was no pimp, no brothel, no authority but my own. I set my own rules, dress code, hours, pay, and customer interaction etiquette. I had agency, I was in control: Just the way I like it.

        What I find so insulting is the fact that selling sex is illegal because other people have some moral stick up their butt about it. I hurt no one by providing a service of consensual sex between two adults. I know that there is the issue of human trafficking (which is not escorting or any sex work, it’s *human trafficking*), but why should I be handcuffed and locked in jail because people are afraid some of those in the industry are working against their will? It doesn’t even make sense.

        Being lgbtq has nothing to do with it. I do appreciate your support, and the community definitely needs it! But my transitioning and my escorting are completely separate issues. It’s my personality issues that get in the way of holding down a “regular” job (mostly authority issues, and a supreme fear of being held hostage at a long-term job just for the steady pay). My last “regular” job was working fast food (managed to stay for eight months, jesus christ) and they had more openly gay employees than I’ve ever seen in my life; there was no injustice done to me due to being transgender.

        I will proclaim quite loudly that I felt more victimized at that godforsaken place than I ever did escorting–but not because of being lgbtq. Customer service positions can go to hell. What little faith I had left in humanity ended there. Ever see a grown-ass adult throw a temper tantrum over some pickles? Daily freaking basis. I was required by management to bend over and take whatever insults and aggression the customers wanted to dish at any given time. I was told to smile and apologize and try to right our wrong–which was really the *customer’s* wrong nearly every time. I NEVER took any of that shit while escorting. You want to be rude? Bye, Felicia!! Look elsewhere for business, you’re not getting mine.

        Anyways…all this to say, I appreciate the concern, but it’s probably lost on me, as I don’t need it. I wish very much to go back into escorting, and possibly porn if I could land it. I can’t think of an easier way to make all that money.

        1. Mercy says:

          “Ever see a grown-ass adult throw a temper tantrum over some pickles?” Sometimes, after a really bad day, its the pickles that’ll push a person over the edge.

          You mention that you are on this site for other reasons. Would you care to share the reason? I understand if you don’t want to, I’m just curious.

          1. zielum says:


            I can’t quite find the right words to explain what happened with losing faith in humanity over pickles (and mustard, and onions, and cold fries). It was a long, slow journey over the course of eight months. I got tired of being personally insulted (“little shit”; “are you deaf?”; “y’all a buncha racist crackers!”; etc), I got tired of being blamed, I got tired of having to (as the cashier) apologize for the kitchen’s neverending incompetence.

            Also, I was raised to believe that only babies are picky eaters (they told my younger sister this her entire childhood). So when I see all these people being picky eaters–not wanting onions, pickles, or mustard (90% of customers don’t want at least one of these things), I just see a bunch of whiny babies to begin with, even before they start their tirade over their wishes not being met. I understand that it’s probably a flawed belief on my part–I understand that my parents were probably wrong to tell my sister that–but no amount of chastising my thoughts at work could keep at bay the revulsion I felt for the picky eaters.

            Why am I here?….Mm. First there was just one reason; now there are three.

            1) I know a person with NPD (my own armchair diagnosis). I want him very much (not in the same way you’re thinking…but it’s hard to explain). I knew he probably had NPD but I researched in order to confirm. That brought me here, and now I’m learning so much more on how to interact with him so that I can finally catch him. I think I’m already making progress, even with the current block.

            2) The more I read, the more I connected the dots to not just my narc, but also myself. … This story is too long for here, but I will just say that I’ve been (I believe incorrectly) diagnosed with a certain personality disorder, but I see more parallels with narcissistic rather than borderline tendencies. I’ve fought for the last 10 years–my entire adulthood–against myself. I was raised in a confusing manner: do as I say, not as I do. They intentionally taught us how to act empathetically; they unintentionally taught us how to think narcissistically. This made me believe that I was a good person with pure intentions. But it caused more cognitive dissonance than I could handle–I am not a “good” person, and I, more often than not, do not have pure intentions. Reading H.G.’s lovely work, I’ve been inspired to cast aside the weak part of me that has felt like a smothering wool blanket all this time, and embrace the part of me I’ve never succeeded in shaking. Of course, I am no H.G….sadly. I’m bitter but not malignant (I don’t think), and I don’t have the “chess mind” required for an extended, intentional manipulation. I can’t deny that there are parts of me that aren’t a narcissistic adaptation. I seem to be a mix of things–bit of borderline, bit of narcissist, bit of codependent. At least as far as I can tell. I’ve decided that for now, I’m just going to focus on questioning my real motives for everything I do; as well as allow the “dark” voice in my head to have his say, rather than telling him to shut up all the time. This site has been a treasure trove of information, as well as a beacon of hope telling me that yes, it is okay to be and think and feel this way. It’s a form of validation, I guess, after a childhood of these thoughts/feelings being invalidated. Who knows where I’ll end up.

            3) Just like thousands of others, I find H.G. to be personally alluring. Narcs have a reputation of charm for a reason lol and H.G. manages it without ever showing his face. I find myself laughing out loud with delight when he says something particularly narcissistic. His method of gaining adoration fuel is quite ingenious. 🙂

          2. Mercy says:

            Zielum, Oh dear please do not go anywhere. Your journey is just beginning. It seems that you have been reading and following comments. Is it safe to say that you are forming trust in what you are reading? If that is the case, could I suggest taking an empath detector? I think first and foremost, understanding who you are is a good start. Like so many of us here, you sound like you may identify with narcissist traits and therefore think you could be one. But you also identify with Co-dep. I think it’s very normal to feel this way. HG is brilliant at sorting out those conflictions in our head.

            Please keep posting. Im sure I’m not alone by saying that your contribution here would be welcome.

          3. zielum says:


            My understanding of H.G.’s detector tests are that they’re short answer, open-ended questions, right? Or possibly multiple choice mixed in/predominating?

            The problem I run into with “detectors” is that I know all the right answers…I know how to manipulate the results to whatever I want them to be. There’s a very thorough, offical test for cluster B disorders and a few other personality dispositions; I’ve taken it several times, answering differently, and can basically choose which traits it will mark me for. This is because I’ve researched these disorders hardcore for two years now. And the problem is that I don’t have a solid sense of self (very typical for cluster B). Any of the traits of any of the disorders really could apply to me, if I think hard enough about it. So the challenge is really in being aware enough to view myself from an outside perspective and answer without bias…it’s the bias that kills the authenticity of my results. If I want to get an “empath” designation result, I will get it. If I want to get a “narcissist” designation result, I will get it.

            Which is all a bunch of yada yada to say that I’m not ready to take that kind of test because I’m not at a point yet where I won’t try to manipulate the results to my liking. I got straight A’s in school not because I’m particularly smart–but because I’m excellent at learning how to game the test system lol.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            The detectors are designed to counter what you refer to. Most online tests for example, with regard to narcissism, are poor, because they will not detect narcissists, they often cause non-narcissists to think they are narcissists.

        2. K says:

          Selling sex isn’t amoral and it shouldn’t be illegal either. Escorting is a service, that’s all.

          1. zielum says:


            Thank you! I love meeting people who see reason.

        3. Violetta says:

          Zielum, please be careful. There are some horrible people out there, and if it were possible for them to feel less guilt than none, they’d feel less guilt about hurting a sex worker than anyone else.

          1. zielum says:

            Thank you! I agree. I only ever felt fear for my safety with a single client, but thankfully everything ended okay and I blocked his number immediately after. I’m very good at detecting the bad apples ahead of time; I ask specific questions and watch for red flags. I have on numerous occasions told a prospective client that I didn’t believe I was a good fit for them and they’d have to look elsewhere, due to these red flags (though I never explained them to the client as that would leave room for debate). My suspicions were often confirmed when they’d suddenly turn into a nasty piece of work calling me all kinds of names. If sex work were decriminalized, there would be a much safer and reliable system in place to screen out the unsafe clients. Instead, we just have to rely on our wits and take risks where there’s no choice not to.

        4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear zielum,
          Many thanks for your most generous reply and no I did not find it harsh …. thank you
          You have very strong independent ideas and thoughts based on experience….. that’s a good thing
          I am of the same opinion as “K” regarding the sex industry
          Personally, I’d like to see the industry made legal and safer for the workers, same with escorts ….they “deserve” all money they can get
          I have worked in the retail industry and the food n beverage sector as well ….. it should be made compulsory for school leavers as part of their work experience to understand human behaviour and witness how people really tick , great learning curb and real eye opener
          “Back in my day” …. customer service was paramount (we even had training school and homework) we treated everyone with the utmost respect …. “the customer was always right” and you would be instantly dismissed if you disrespected a customer ( it was considered your career), and we were addressed by our title Mr /Mrs, none of this christian name informality ….my, how times have changed
          The food n beverage industry has changed dramatically and is a service that now caters to extremely fussy eaters, what with dietary requirements, vegans, gluten free, fodmap, you name it, the list is endless (In my day, you could not leave the table without eating everything on your plate)… you then asked if you may please be excused and take your plate to the sink
          We are all amused by Mr Tudors wit … he’s extremely clever, dry n sarcastic ….does that make me a narcissist ? No !
          Your disclaimer is interesting … have you considered a consult with Mr Tudor to lay your doubts n concerns to rest ?
          “Wanting” to snare a narcissistic is the complete opposite as to why we are all here
          You are definitely playing with fire and I sincerely hope you don’t get too burnt
          Most of us have suffered at the hands of narcissists all our lives … you cannot win and playing at their game is not advisable
          Thank you for sharing zielum, I find your story most interesting, intriguing and the fact it’s from a different perspective and your reference to “they ” ….I have not yet come across
          I hope you continue to comment as I would very much like to see your progress
          Mr Tudor will give you all the answers you seek
          Stay safe and take care
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. zielum says:

            Thank you for your support of the consensual sex industry; we need all the allies we can get.

            I agree with the customer service expectations. I’m actually very service-oriented, and at the beginning of my job, I was *extremely* attentive to customers’ needs. I was the embodiment of good customer service. Unfortunately, aggressive/entitled customers took their toll on me, as well as a constantly revolving management that were all hellbent on undermining my efforts. Such as the manager who refused to step a single foot from her station and called out my name nonstop to stop what I doing (helping customers at the front counter) to help her do her job. Or the rest who kept telling me I was doing everything wrong. Except, before I was forced to start listening to them, customers loved me. They told me what a great job I was doing, they asked for my name so they could mention it on the store surveys, they pulled the managers aside to tell them how helpful I was, and at least three tipped me when the managers weren’t looking (it was against the rules to accept tips but I did anyway). I was even officially rewarded, twice, by management with store gift cards for “excellent customer service” because of the flood of positive reviews the store was receiving with my name specifically mentioned. Alas, management still did not see my value. They berated me for not helping my coworkers enough (I held the only front-counter position during my shift at a very busy tourist location, so I always had my hands full). Eventually, I lost my wide smile, I lost my motivation, I lost my give-a-fuck. It felt like sabotage. Not to mention the brown-noser who all my coworkers hated for being bossy and incompetent but management loved–he even made a coworker follow through with her threat to quit if he got promoted to manager, which he did. Seeing someone like him be “recognized” while someone like me was berated…ugh. Whatever.

            I didn’t mean to imply that narcissists are who would be attracted to H.G.–I meant that he, as a narcissist, is very good at the charm his kind is renowned for, and that I’m just another fan.

            I definitely would like a consult with H.G. at some point; now is just not the time. I’ve hit a major turning point in my awareness recently and I need to sort it out first before seeking outside help. As well as there are financial restraints currently. I’m aware of the angel donations but I’d like to fund the consult myself if possible. I know there are hurt empaths who need the consults way more than I do right now.

            I love playing with fire 3>:-) It’s too much to explain in depth here but I am only interested in challenges. My narc is the biggest challenge I have ever come across, and that is why (aside from his intentional manipulations of me while I was unaware) I find him so irresistable. I have a thirst to get inside his head, learn his strengths and weaknesses, and capture him the same way as my ex-husband. An impossible task? Quite likely. But that’s what I’m after. Who better to have a battle of wit and wills against than someone who will always be just one step ahead of my efforts? I will never grow bored. And boredom is my downfall.

            As far as getting hurt…well, maybe that’s the borderline side of me. I have been hurt many, many times before. My ex-husband was the king of that–still is. I’m not afraid of it; I consider it collateral damage on the way to my end goals. I’m not unable to leave; divorcing my ex proved that. Then there’s H.G.’s codependency explanation to consider. I don’t *want* to leave the hurt. The hurt means I’m not trying hard enough. It means I have to be smarter, craftier, more insightful.

            Please don’t take this to mean that I think abuse is good for all. I *consent* to abuse, I seek it out, I crave it, because it’s what feels right and it motivates me in an otherwise unmotivated existence. Am I disordered? You betcha. But I’m perfectly fine with it. Others, however–such as empaths like yourself–don’t sign up for abuse, do not enjoy it, do not want to be chained to it. I do not intend to imply that you should in any way, shape, or form. It’s just something with my own makeup that accepts it and wants it. It is not a statement about how I feel others should live their lives.

            Thank you again, and I wish you all the luck as well 🙂

          2. lisk says:


            Fast-food worker? Sex worker?

            You seem overqualified for both.

            However, I can see why you are going for the easy big money. So many headaches avoided by going that route instead of climbing up some established ladder in almost any other “respectable” industry.

            Re: customer service complaints: Aren’t there entitled, picky sex customers? (If that info’s in another post, apologies.)

          3. zielum says:


            I am indeed overqualified for both.

            Well, I wouldn’t say there were the same kind of “picky” customers as at fast food…I can’t think of anyone who had a weird, “This has to be done this particular way” sorta thing….But entitled? Yes. Aka the assholes. I was excellent at weeding them out through text screening (which I explained in a little more detail in a previous reply). I only ever had a single client that made me fear for my safety; I’d say that’s a pretty decent success rate.

          4. K says:

            Dearest Bubbles,
            Great minds think alike!
            Luv K xoxox

        5. K says:

          My pleasure, zielum!

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest K,
            Thank you sweetheart
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. K says:

            Dearest Bubbles,
            My pleasure!
            Luv K xoxox

        6. Witch says:

          Hi Zielum,
          It’s interesting that you say you need certain traits to be able to engage in sex work.
          After reading HG’s work I’ve come to realise that those who say they have had terrible experiences as sex workers (and by sex work, I’m referring to actual sex taking place) are most likely empaths and those that are content with being sex workers are most likely somatic narcissists, highly narcissistic or having some kind of related personality disorder.
          I agree that you do need certain traits to be able to be continue engaging in sex work without having a break down or developing PTSD.

          1. zielum says:

            Lol well your implication seems a little melodramatic to me, that when it comes to sex work you’re either mentally disturbed (as I’m sure narcs are seen by empathetic individuals) or you become traumatized. Although I don’t know much about you and how you generally view the world so it’s possible I’m misreading what you meant to say.

            What it really comes down to is this: What is a disorder? The truth is that the “disorders” found in the DSM are only valid when you compare the disordered person against the rest of their own particular society. Many people in many societies view willing sex workers as mentally unstable. They can’t understand how someone might enjoy it without something being wrong in the head with them. But what if that “disordered” sex worker were in a society that actually embraced sex, that viewed marriage and monogamy as the idiocy they are, that encouraged free sexual interactions between all its members? Putting aside the obvious point that this society wouldn’t have a need for sex workers–Would this person be considered “disordered” to them? Nope. They’d be considered perfectly stable and healthy–the epitome of normal. You could play out this thought exercise with any of the other Cluster B disorders as well.

            So I may agree with you that the traits needed for sex workers may be deemed “disordered” by our society, but I do not agree that it means that there’s something wrong with them in such a way that if you don’t have those traits, you’re going to be traumatized.

            Basically: There is nothing inherently wrong or traumatizing with sex work. Anywhere, for any human, period. It’s only the societal baggage you may bring to the table that might break your mind with the perceived horror of it.

            So perhaps the traits I’m referring to are more about the willingness to look beyond your own society’s expectations of its members. Narcs do indeed fit this bill because they’re often aware that they’re breaking social rules but they just don’t care; they also don’t often go to therapy because they don’t see themselves, and their adaptations, as flawed. Possible line of thinking: “What do I care if society doesn’t like sex work? I enjoy consensual sex with other adults, I enjoy easy money, and so I see nothing wrong with combining the two.” But this thinking doesn’t have to just apply to narcs, does it? There are a great slew of non-disordered people who break societal rules everywhere you go. Some go further than others. A relative of mine, for example, is going against the majority of our society by engaging in animal rights activism. She’s even been jailed several times for her actions–the epitome of society saying, “There’s something wrong with you.” Does that make her disordered? Nope. She simply has certain traits that allow her to break societal rules in order to do what she feels needs done.

            All that said, humans are social animals. So much of our evolution was focused on societal cohesion. In fact, that’s where the “disorders” come from…If you break with society, you die, and so you must adapt in the best way you can, or die. That’s been the natural law of our species for all of our history. But we’re reaching a turning point where it’s no longer a necessity to be just like everyone else, get along with everyone else, follow everyone else. We can be the black sheep and still survive–We can have the traits that allow us to comfortably break from societal expectations, and still survive.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            This sits within the fact that there is no objective standard of right or wrong, normal or abnormal, but rather it is judged against a majority perspective, Zielum. I am described as disordered, as against the majority subjective standard, however it is normal for me and works effectively for me. The “disordered” sex worker is only deemed as such as against the majority perspective, yet their behaviours are effective for them.

          3. Witch says:

            Hi zielum,
            I wasn’t trying to put a moral stance on it as “wrong” or “right.”
            You said that people who view sex a certain way (which is how the majority of empaths view sex as intimate) project that onto you and see you as a victim. You said you are not a victim and you don’t believe you are an empath. If someone finds sex to be intimate it will be very difficult for them to engage in sex work long term without experiencing emotional/mental repercussions. There are ex-sex workers who advocate against prostitution due to their experiences with it and I suspect part of why they had a terrible experience is because they were empaths.
            When I said “personality disorder” I said it because that is what they are called “personality disorders.”
            I suspect that many happy sex workers are probably somatic narcs or highly narcissistic and therefore would not perceive themselves as victims as their view of sex would be very different from an empaths.
            Women like Sasha grey who became famous for her “extreme” acts in porn such as licking the toilet seat.. is just one example of why empaths are not particularly suited to this industry. You need a lot of narcissistic traits to be able to cope with certain things. I imagine that most surgeons are psychopathic also in order to be able to do their jobs.

          4. zielum says:


            Some fair points.

          5. zielum says:


            Exactly! I wish I could express my scattered thoughts as succinctly. But yes: Morals are subjective.

            Quite pleased at your validation ^_^

            There is so much more to explore on this topic, but I’ve learned that it scares most people, so probably not the best for here.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Be my guest.

          7. zielum says:

            You mean…talk about that kind of stuff here?….I generally save it for the “closed” and “secret” dark triad/machiavellian/narc groups on FB. I’m not worried about how *you* would feel towards it; I’m concerned about all the empaths here. Condemnation sucks.

          8. Chihuahuamum says:

            Re: sex workers i dont judge them bc most are not doing it bc they “like it”. Most are from abusive backgrounds who were runaways or got involved in drugs. It is traumatizing bc the clients abuse and treat them horribly! Many are killed and thrown away like trash or are so beat up and abused their lives are destroyed and they end up overdosing on drugs. No its a bad industry to be in.
            Morals… there is right and wrong. Someone like epstein or prince andrew would argue its a matter of perception and there is no right or wrong BS!! When youre violating a young child that is wrong! I dont care what your perception is thats sick and perverted! Thats a load of bs saying it can be right by anothers sandards. A pedophile would have you believe in some societies having sex with children is sacred or ok but its deception and lies.

          9. zielum says:

            It is certainly valid to have a strong opinion.

          10. Violetta says:


            You can’t scare Mr. Tudor, unless you’re his Creature.

            As for the readers, the majority of us are mostly scared of our narcXes, but since they’d be scared of Mr. Tudor if they realized he knows them better than they do themselves, we’re not quite so afraid of them here.

          11. SMH says:

            Ha that made me laugh, Violetta! If NarcEx only knew …

          12. Witch says:

            I just want to clarify that I wasn’t saying it out of judgment.. I just suspect that there are a lot of narcissists in the sex industry as there are in Hollywood.
            I’ve met a male gay sex worker and the first thing he did was to show us all a video of his dog licking his balls, it looked like he even had a semi. When I pointed out to him that this was all a bit weird (we didn’t even know him.) he said he doesn’t see the point in making moral judgments.
            He was charming, nice, good looking but it was quite clear that he was an exhibitionist and probably rather enjoys shocking people and I suspect there is something more to that.
            There are certain jobs that are just not empath territory, it doesn’t mean that empaths have never worked those jobs, but they wouldn’t be able to cope for very long in those jobs.

          13. Witch says:

            Hi Chihuahuamum
            Yes I’ve seen an interview with a porn actress who said that she was “built for porn” because she was sexually abused as a child. Her words not mine.
            She said she does not believe her children would ever grow up to be involved in the porn industry because they have had “normal” childhoods unlike hers. Once again her words not mine.
            I appreciated her brutal honesty, despite the fact that porn fans would not want to hear that.

          14. Liza says:

            hello zielum,
            you are invited by the host to talk about the subjects that concern you, if some other guest don’t like the party they can just leave, or ignore what they don’t like , you don’t need to consern yourself with all these details.
            good luck with finding the answers you are searching for !

        7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear zielum,
          Thank you so much for your reply
          Your story has definitely brought in a new dimension to this blog indeed, an area I’m not very “au fait” with, so please excuse my ignorance
          I understand borderlines appear to have more complex issues compared to normal empaths so I think it’s imperative to seek “definite” clarification with Mr Tudor
          I also feel it’s imperative you ascertain the correct diagnosis of your ” intended ” narcissist with Mr Tudor
          I may have misread into your comments zielum, but I can’t help but feel your need, desire and challenge for “hurt” is your underlying punishment/reward/necessity, for self acceptance …. just my perception
          We know a lady who was in the porn/escort industry who sought validation and acceptance but felt “punishment” were her dues (bad is better)
          She is the loveliest of lovelies
          She left the industry, but was always drawn to “sex” like the air she breathes
          Mental issues, absolutely, however, thru help, guidance and a strong support network, she married, settled down (along with her furry friends) and found solace in alcohol, however has ended up with some complex health issues ….she’s now in her 70’s
          She had an extremely hard time holding down a “normal” job (ended up self employed) … she’s actually an extremely intelligent lady but also was a very restless soul (she did bare a child, but was unable to mother him at that time in her life)
          Without the proper guidance and direction, she was headed for self destruction and probably would’ve ended up dead
          To this day, she is extremely proud of what she did and will brag and talk endlessly about her conquests and exploits as if they were her trophies
          Our family luv her to bits and none of us have ever judged her
          I sincerely hope you continue here and seek advice from Mr Tudor before embarking on your quest

          (ps …. I too, have been a bit of a social activist in my time, however, prison green/blue/orange are not my colours …haha)
          Please take care zielum
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. zielum says:


            I thank you again for your concern. You’re a very caring person, which is admirable.

            I have heard of the phenomenon where people feel they “deserve” pain and punishment, with relationships and esp. with self-harm in regards to borderlines.

            I have never identified with it. Have I willingly experienced hurt from others and engaged in self-harm at times? Yes. But never out of a feeling of having “deserved” it. I don’t deserve any sort of hurt. Almost all self-harm I’ve done was/is as a coping mechanism: compulsive drinking and pill popping to cope with my failures and inescapability of military service; smoking to cope with anxiety and aggression; slammed my head against a door to calm a fury; scratched a bloody patch into my arm to fend off a panic attack at my vulnerability and lack of control during one of my dad’s tirades towards me; and ground a lit cigarette into the back of my own hand in an attempt to pierce through the complete and utter apathy I felt.

            I feel no shame or regret at these things. They helped me control myself, which was exactly what I needed at the time and therefore, they were useful and necessary. I have been trying to find better methods of control, however. I’m almost 30 and still learning what is and is not acceptable to others in our society, as I seem to have no concept of it myself. People get weirded out very easily. This always results in major inconveniences and setbacks to myself.

            Anyway. I would just like to reiterate that I am not a soul in need of saving, especially in regard to sex work. I can’t stress enough that I feel zero qualms about having sex with strangers, paid or unpaid. I may as well be buttering toast, or walking through a park. There is absolutely no link for me when it comes to sex and love/personal connection. It definitely does not have anything to do with personal punishment.

            My working theory is that there are two reasons I both accept and seek out pain/hurt during relationships:

            1. It’s familiar. As HG has explained before, we seek out the “love” that was modeled to us in our formative years. Guess what kind of childhood I had? Guess what “love” looks like to me? Pain, fear, belittlement, control, unpredictability, aggression, never good enough, silent treatments, manipulation, service. This relationship dynamic feels like home.

            2. Collateral damage. While subconsciously I need pain to feel what constitutes “love” for me, consciously I don’t necessarily seek it out, but merely accept it as the price I pay to be with the ones I’m interested in. This one’s trickier to hash out. But basically, I play my own games to capture those I want. It looks quite different, but it’s a manipulation all the same. And it requires getting to know the person I’m dealing with in great detail. That necessitates stepping on toes–sometimes a blunder when I make a wrong guess, sometimes on purpose to further an end goal. This almost always results in a backlash that wounds me in some way. It does not feel good at all. But it just means I have to try harder, be smarter, and up my game. As long as I can accomplish the ultimate goal, the backlashes along the way are simply part and parcel of the games I play.

            My game is not nearly so efficient and effective as HG’s. But I’m getting better in my own way with each round. I don’t go after those below me; I go after those above. What better power trip is there than knowing you’ve bested those who’re better than you? My ex was above me, and is now below. My narc is above me now, and maybe someday below. It’s my current project and I love every bit of it. Patience is key.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            What determines who is above and below you?

          3. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection

            First, this is all completely subjective–it’s my own personal perspective for my own life and the people in it. I’m not using any sort of standardized measurement that would apply to anyone else.

            By “above” and “below” I mean where I feel we are in relation to the surrounding social hierarchy. But not just the–oh, how do I put this–outwardly showing status?….For instance, my ex started off above me, because everyone loves him and he’s accepted anywhere he goes; a far cry from how I’m received. I also felt he was personally superior because his traits seemed stronger and better than mine. But over time, I got to learn the ins and outs of who he is, and I came to realize that my set of personality traits were actually superior to his, despite the fact that he was using his more effectively than I’ve ever used mine. So his outward social status hasn’t really changed, but I now control the interactions we have, and feel secure in knowing I’ve captured him.

            Meanwhile, my narc is still above me in both outward social hierachy and personality makeup (usually). Like with my ex, I doubt I will ever climb the social ladder above my narc, so I don’t waste the energy in trying. Instead, I’ve been working methodically over the past two years to understand everything about him, get inside his head, and capture him. It’s been particularly slow-going because I’m still trying to figure out how I work and what exact issues I have and what my real motivations are. I think I’m getting closer on that front.

            Finally….If this all sounds like a confusing bag of ass, I agree and apologize lol I’ve never tried to explain this in words before. It’s just been in my head as feelings, or something.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, I’m new to the thread and I’m sorry for interrupting. I’ve been reading your story these past days and I am happy to have you in the blog. I am very sorry you had such a painful childhood, most people in this blog didn’t have an ideal family either, unfortunately. I am intrigued after reading your latest comment about what you consider “above” and “below” in your relationships with people. You said your ex used to be above and now is below. I think I understand what you mean, but would you mind to elaborate a little on that?

          5. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Thank you!
            And I included my answer to your question in an above reply to NarcAngel, as the questions were very similar.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you, Zielum. From what you explain, it sounds as if you instinctively watch your partner’s behavior and responses to eventually ascertain control, in similar fashion to how empaths instinctively create attachments and feelings to the other person. Now, if you participate in a secret forum for Machiavellian dark-triad members, that doesn’t seem so instinctive anymore but quite premeditated. Are the participants sharing control strategies perhaps? I’m super intrigued about this. Notice I didn’t ask about your job. I don’t care and I don’t judge though I’m glad you’re smart and have a list of rules to decrease risks. Many narcs don’t even think they could catch a STD due to their haughtiness.

          7. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Lol. Wouldn’t know bout the dark triad group. I joined a Cluster B “no bullshit” group when I believed I had BPD (who the fuck knows, I might still have it). It was mostly run by narcs, some paths(psycho/socio), and a few with DID. I found it much more intriguing than the borderline support groups. I befriended many of the narcs there; the narc moderator proceeded to add me to a bunch of narc-focused groups, including the dark triad/machiavellian once, despite it not really being borderline-oriented. I can be arrogant and bitter but I’m generally not ill-intentioned, so I didn’t frequent the group as often as I did the others. In the end, I deleted that whole account and started fresh (for unrelated reasons), so I’m not a part of any of the groups anymore.

            As far as “sharing control strategies”, eh, I mean like I said, I wasn’t on the dark triad one much–mostly they talked about big world concepts, rather than personal relationships–but the regular narc groups were very much interested in personal interactions. Thing is, pretty much none of them were malignant, as far as I could tell. All were very aware and could explain their behaviors, but none sounded like they went out of their way to harm all their partners in the premeditated way that HG describes. For them it was just “how the story goes”; all their relationships happened to end up going a certain way, which they knew was through their own actions, but that they weren’t necessarily gunning for ahead of time.

            Yeeeeah I don’t fuck around with STD risk. Like, yes sir, you CAN get infected through oral…I mean, the risk is super low in comparison, but it’s also a good excuse to not have to gag on your cum lol. Yech. But yeah to me it’s just simple statistics…Last thing I want is an incurable infection, and all it takes is once. With the amount of guys I was going through, I was quite paranoid. I used to sleep around a ton when I was younger, zero protection….I honestly don’t know how I didn’t end up with something from all that. Now I get myself full-panel tested regularly, and my protection efforts have paid off.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Zielum, “gag on your …” hahaha! I almost gaged sipping my coffee when I read that! So true.

            Yes I asked you because from the little I know Machiavellianism is usually engaged in world power, politics, very little concerned with personal relationships, that’s more of a narcissist’s trait because of the need for fuel. Sometimes I wish I had a Machiavellian counselor at work haha! I can have a very chess-like, planning mentality, but I don’t believe in winning at all costs no matter what it takes. So let me ask you, if the group you frequented was mostly made of non-malignant, what makes you think anything you explain here would make people attack you? I thought you were gonna start describing how to kill puppies for the fun of it (thus my mention to the dark group) but if it is about fucking up relationships, I think we have pretty much witnessed a lot in this blog already. There were times I felt disgusted while reading some parts of HG’s books and articles, but I survived.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Your observation with regard to Machiavellianism is correct.

          10. zielum says:

            Sweetest Perfection,

            Both borderlines and narcissists share a common trait:
            They are *extremely* attuned to criticism.
            Both can experience bouts of utter rage if the criticism is done correctly and especially if it’s prolonged, with no other source of support.

            So when I say “attacked”, it probably looks a lot different than what you’d consider an “attack”. I word it that way as a reflection of how it feels to me, not necessarily due to the size or intent of the campaign by others.

            That being said, I have already felt “attacked” several times here. Guess that makes me a sensitive little snowflake. But it is what it is. I’ve done my best to avoid lashing out, though it’s leaked through a few times.

            Anyway. What I’m trying to say is: The ideas that I was referring to are some that are closer to my true self. They may not even sound that interesting–that isn’t the point. The closer to my true self an opinion is, the greater the compounding of the “attack” I feel when someone disagrees with it or criticizes it. Putting certain ideas out there right now, when I know for a fact some of you already dislike me, feels like contemplating suicide lol no thanks, not today.

          11. HG Tudor says:


            Criticism is Challenge Fuel. Rage does not always follow the provision of Challenge Fuel, there are many different types of response to situations where challenge fuel is provided.

          12. zielum says:


            That’s the gist of what I said–I may have worded it poorly though. “Attuned” to criticism meaning we recognize/perceive it much more quickly and easily than others. *If* done in a certain way for prolonged periods, *then* it may result in a rage. You provide an excellent overview of how that can be done in your book “Revenge: How to Beat the Narcissist”.

          13. Hope says:

            What about STDs? Is your pay high enough for you to be okay with occupational hazards? Of living with disease? How do you protect yourself? Also how do you protect yourself from people who devalue, abuse, degrade, or even try to imprison or murder you? How do you enforce payment from people who try to jip you? Legal businesses have the law to assist. How do you take care of yourself and provide stability or insurance? Are you just hoping that bad things don’t happen to you? Why not travel to a country in Europe where is legal? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

          14. zielum says:


            It’s lovely to see how concerned you are with my welfare.

            I’d like to first clarify that I was an escort, not a streetwalker. I charged for time, rather than for any specific activity. My clients were generally older gentlemen with plenty of money to spare; most were businessmen in town for their work, many others were aging bachelors with large empty homes. Was I high-end? Certainly not–I don’t want to mislead. But I was definitely in a position to demand standards, such as: condom use every single time for every single applicable activity, no exceptions; no anal; nothing in public; no jerks; no car rides in their vehicle; no pic exchanges by text; no phone calls. I lost many potential clients due to these standards, but I also gained substantially more because of them.

            I do find it fascinating that you’ve read some of my previous comments and came to the conclusion that I’m unintelligent and don’t know how to look after myself, nor care. I assure you that the answers to your burning questions are neither your business nor within your ability to swallow satisfactorily. The assumptions you’ve made indicate that you have preconceived notions regarding myself and my work that I may never be able to surmount with any amount of reasoned discourse. I’ve been down that tired road before and it’s never fruitful.

            All I can really say is that sometimes you have to have a little faith that people in risky jobs have taken all conceivable precautions available to them to prevent negative outcomes. I’m sure it would be slightly insulting to you if someone came poking around your place of business, asking all kinds of demeaning questions that imply you’re not qualified to make any adult decision for yourself?

            Moving to Europe would be cool–I lived at a military base over there for a few years, it was pleasant. But I have kids and a co-parenting ex-husband right now who’ll keep me stateside for the foreseeable future.

          15. Hope says:

            I love how you say exactly what you mean. It’s refreshing. Hard to come by these days. I can see how you interpreted me when you state it so bluntly. I didn’t mean to demean you at all. I really am curious. I often find I don’t know how to communicate without people feeling attacked and I’m not sure why I do that. I’m not trying to upset people. I just get to the point.

            I did wonder if you never thought of some things when I read you are only 30. I only thought this because when I was younger, maybe 25 and younger, I felt invincible and never considered danger. I fissures it but I didn’t think it was worth my time to worry or worth my life to live in fear. If I die, I’m dead. But it’s not that black and white. I didn’t learn just how lucky I was thinking back on all the things I have done until much later when I learned about the world. I grew up with controlling parents so freedom was all that mattered to me. I was naive. I guess I was projecting my issues on you but I was also curious how you survive. I wanted to be a dancer when I was younger. I trusted everyone.

            I don’t think you’re stupid at all. I really admire your honesty and genuine nature. I love how secure you are. I love how you aren’t afraid to let people know you as you really are. No mask. No manipulation. No games. I feel like I can learn vicariously through being exposed to your journey as well.

            I’m a little more cautious but I do see some similarities in you, but from my past. Sorry if that offends you. Lol. I’m trying to change though. I used to love a challenge and I have always lived my life unapologetically defying labels, boundaries, stereotypes, cultural and societal norms etc. I’m changing now though. It’s exhausting fighting the current constantly. Now I just want peace and acceptance. I’m tired of proving people wrong. Seeing you still fired up just has me curious again. A glance back at the road untravelled as I took the other side of the fork in it this time. Do you! But please do share. 👍👌😁🤗👊

          16. zielum says:


            I’m not very good at telling friend from foe. It’s easier just to not trust anyone. If you really meant no harm, then I’m sorry for being so defensive.

            I appreciate the time you took in replying.

          17. SMH says:

            Zielum, I do not believe Hope was attacking you. Neither was Kim e. You clearly have not yet learned to read the room. You’re already getting snippy and you don’t even know us yet. Please wait until you do!

            Scared? Us? We’ve discussed moral relativism ad nauseam. It’s one of HG’s favorite topics. Thank god it is irrelevant here (it’s so boring) because you and your clients are all in agreement. Do whatever you want. Who cares? I sure don’t. You are an adult. Your clients are adults. You were not trafficked. You are not an abused empath.

            You are also not a big bad wolf with all of this life experience to which the rest of us could not possibly relate. Cut yourself? So have a million people on here. Done drugs? So have a million people on here. Divorced with kids? So are a million people on here. In the military? Yup, we have some of those too, as well as fast food workers. We have empaths galore as well as narc #1. What are we meant to learn from a transgendered sex worker in his twenties (!!) who is neither of those things? What do you want other than an audience? Asking for a friend.

          18. zielum says:



          19. SMH says:

            Zielum, Transgender what? All I see is *transgender.

          20. zielum says:


            I would also like to say that I’m glad your family was so supportive of your friend. Mental health issues can be tough on their own, but without a solid support system, they can be a nightmare–even deadly. I know how difficult it can be for neurotypicals to understand a disorder that causes so many negative behavior patterns, based on a skewed perspective, because a neurotypical has never experienced that level of perception disruption. So it’s difficult to relate, especially when the disordered individual’s actions are painful to themselves and others. So I’d like to thank you and your family for giving your friend the patience and support she deserves.

          21. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear zielum,
            Thank you again and for your extra comment … that was most kind of you and sincerely appreciated

            I noticed you mentioned your “inescapable military service ” Where you deployed and are you suffering any post traumatic stress from your service ?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          22. zielum says:


            “I noticed you mentioned your “inescapable military service ” Where you deployed and are you suffering any post traumatic stress from your service?”

            No…….I meant more along the lines of, military service is a years-long contract between yourself and the government whereby you become their property to do with as they see fit. Don’t get me wrong…I wish I could be back in. But I was not ready to handle the extreme lack of control over my being that I experienced while in. I was fresh out of high school when I shipped to basic training.

            As always, I don’t intend to mislead. I was Honorably discharged before my initial career training was completed, due to my personality disorder (whatever the hell it is at this point). I had a lot of issues back then that I had no clue were even a part of me….I did not even make it to my first duty station, let alone ship off on a deployment.

            I’d need a crap ton of waivers to get back in at this point, but they no longer need warm bodies so desperately, so they’re not accepting my kind of waivers currently. I’ll keep trying every so often as I have been for years.

          23. Bubbles says:

            Dear zielum,
            I just wanted to add, I try to be there for those who don’t have anyone because I never had anyone …. I know what it feels like !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    2. Renarde says:

      Thankyou for sharing and please take care x

    3. Lorelei says:

      Zielum—I work many transgender individuals. I applaud your comment below re, being asked questions and I’m sure the questions weren’t delivered with any ill intent —though your response was excellent.

      1. zielum says:

        Thank you 🙂

  13. candacemarie says:

    I don’t know why I am commenting but yes I have sent and received pics from my ex lesser. It was during our long distance relationship when he was living in England. It’s something I regret now more than anything. It’s not something I ever thought I would do prior to meeting my ex narc. I knew people who would send pics and I thought it was disgusting. Then I ended up doing it myself, that is shameful.

    1. NotMe! says:

      Candacemarie, it’s not shameful and you need not be ashamed. Were you duped? Yup.
      They’re sneaky feckers, that’s what they do x

    2. MommyPino says:

      Hi Candacemarie,

      You shouldn’t feel shameful about that. I think that shame is a useless feeling. I would rather feel regret than shame because with regret is an acceptance that as an imperfect person I make mistakes and I have a choice to not repeat the same mistakes. Shame is like a life sentence over a mistake and it imprisons us. Shame is not being able to forgive ourselves. So I think that shame is a useless emotion and should be tossed away.

      Also I have not received nor given any risqué photos but I know myself enough that before I discovered Narcsite, there was a strong possibility that if I was under an emotional addiction to an exploitative narcissist who wanted that kind of exchange with me, I know that there would have been a strong chance that I would have wanted to please him and do it. So it’s not like you did something that is beyond comprehension or something that only bad people do. You were addicted to a narcissist who exploited you and you trusted him like normal people trust their partners. So I don‘t find it shameful.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi Mommypino…jumping in here i just wanted to say that i enjoy your posts and you come across as such a supportive caring person! Its nice to have people like yourself on here 🤗

        1. MommyPino says:

          Thank you Chihuahuamum! I feel the same way about you! 💞

      2. candacemarie says:

        Thank you for your kind response 😊

        1. MommyPino says:

          You’re most welcome candacemarie!!

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear candacemarie,
      Never “regret” the past precious, you were in love and kept the bond and closeness alive which is beautiful
      I always look at previous events in my life as “maturing” experiences
      I don’t believe the body is anything to be “shameful” about
      You did nothing wrong
      Please try not to be so hard on yourself
      Be proud of your body lovely one …. that why we have one
      Take care beautiful
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. candacemarie says:

        Thank you for your sweet response. I do agree that one should not regret mistakes as they help us grow and become better people. I agree with lisks comment below.
        When I met my narc he was a in England so it started out as a long distance relationship. I didn’t know him in person and when we exchanged pics we didn’t really know each other. This action crossed my own morals, principals etc.. I don’t even know what happened to the pictures I sent him. But like you said I was quite taken by him and would do anything to make him happy. Unfortunately, like for everyone on here, it was not real.
        I hope you have a wonderful holiday season 😊😊😊

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear candacemarie,
          We make decisions based on what we feel is right at that particular moment in time
          Whether the choice is good bad or indifferent
          Everything we do is for a reason and it’s all based on learning, growing and making mistakes, for without mistakes we don’t grow
          Acceptance and forgiving oneself is the hardest … I know it only too well
          Time does heal wounds, however we are all left with scars as a reminder
          I agree with you wholeheartedly……. nothing was real !
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    4. lisk says:

      I hear ya, candacemarie.

      I had many “rules” that I allowed myself to break in order to get with Narcx and to stay with him.

      I am still angry, ashamed, regretful, embarrassed, kicking myself, etc., mainly because I went against my principles, because I allowed my boundaries to be crossed.

      I am still processing those yucky feelings. Maybe one day I won’t feel so bad about them.

      Until that one day, I ask that people who care about me, and even those who don’t: Please allow me the space to think what I think and feel what I feel, even if that feeling is something (like shame) that you are uncomfortable with. That would be the most beautiful and most appreciated form of empathy you could give me.

      1. candacemarie says:

        I totally agree!!

  14. SMH says:

    Honest response: the only dick pics I’ve ever received (solicited or not) were from MRN. We’d been seeing each other for about 3 months on and off. I left for five months. He tried to see me in August during a layover but there wasn’t enough time. Suddenly one night a few weeks later he popped up. It was about 11 p.m. and I was out to dinner out with a friend. I walked home texting with MRN. He was drunk and leaving at 5:00 a.m. (he was there for under 24 hours). He wanted me to come to his hotel and invited me to sleep there as late as I wanted to – he later told me he had never spent the night with anyone but IPPS – but you invited me to spend the night, I reminded him – yes, I did, he said. Never tried to deny it.

    It was late and I did not want to go, so we argued a bit. He wouldn’t come to me and I wouldn’t go to him. Okay, I said sweetly, get some sleep and I’ll see you next time. I literally went to sign off and suddenly he sent me a full on dick pic – two actually, in quick succession (obv unsolicited). I stifled a laugh because I could tell he was dead serious (seriously?). I had to think really fast because I did not know what to do so I play acted. He wanted me to reciprocate and I said no but I sent him two pics anyway, neither very revealing and no head/face in either, but one in a dress that he wanted to rip off of me – like rip to shreds (cheap dress – joke between us). The whole thing went on for about two hours. I was kind of astonished – that he really got off, that I could make him get off without doing anything but helping him to fantasize. I had never done anything like that before.

    The next day, he flew off somewhere and kept in touch for about a week. Then he disappeared for three weeks. I remember it very well – I did not try to contact him. Instead, I went online dating and the same day that I signed up, he contacted me. I should have known then that I had a stalker on my hands but I thought it was just a coincidence. I waited two days before I answered and then sent him a head shot – just a nice picture of me. lol. Of course I see now what was going on and I understood somewhat then – he was objectifying my body parts and I was trying to make him see ME.

    I have mixed feelings about the virtual sex. It was sort of empowering and I kind of enjoyed it – it was another of those experiences with MRN. Yet it also felt borderline rape/abusive, I felt victimized and that I was trying to get out of it the best way possible without being symbolically murdered. About two months later, I was traveling and he contacted me while he was traveling too. It was late late evening where I was and early morning where he was. I knew he wanted to do it again but this time it felt like his hand was gripping my neck and he was trying to force me to give him a virtual blow job. That was really uncomfortable and I wouldn’t play again. It was the first time I really felt like I was interacting with some creep I did not know at all. He never tried anything like that again, though we were together on and off for the next year and a half. There was plenty of sexting but there was also real talk and we would see each other irl or I was NC, one or the other.

    Those pics are part of the evidence I have but never used (IPPS would recognize his dick and his face was visible in one of the pictures). The sexting/virtual sex is also why I had to make him delete all of our emails even if it was the last thing I did on earth.

    I just mindlessly ate a whole bar of chocolate while I was writing this. Thanks, HG!!

    What are we supposed to get out of this, HG? I know MRN is a control freak and a fantasist who saw me as an appliance, and I know you are writing an article, but it would be good to have a bit of analysis on our individual experiences since we are giving you such good material.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      All in good time SMH.

      1. SMH says:

        HG, I wanted to add – mostly for your edification – that it was after the first round that I realized he was a narc, and that was from watching The Fall. There is a scene where the serial killer is seducing the young woman via video, and that is the exact moment that I realized. I even wrote to a friend about that scene and about what had happened with MRN. It was a lesson to listen to my gut, which of course I did not do (I did not find this site for another year and a half).

    2. Kim e says:

      W never went that far but at 0130 one morning his text soignal went off. I said OH HELL NO and ignored it. When I looke dthe next morning he wanted me to talk dirty to him. Whole new level for us…..I was gald I did not answer. When I finally did reply the next day, I said something sarcastic that (of course) went right over his head.

      1. SMH says:

        Kim e, You were smart because it got so fucked up for us that there were times where we could not even be in contact. The fist time sexting happened was shortly after the second time we met and I also rejected it at that point. It was morning (though not 1:30 a.m.) and I fell back asleep while he went at it! lol. I then wrote to him that evening telling him I had fallen asleep and dumped him (escape #1).

        Moving right along, I stopped minding – I often found it fun. It was really immature, like we were two drunken teenagers. I minded pictures (such as they were – there weren’t many) more, I think because it is easier to objectify someone through a visual. I could say whatever I wanted to break the hold through words, but a picture has no context – it is like a moment frozen in time.

        Still of course I wanted the correspondence gone but that was mostly because he used a fake email and I used a real one. In fact when he sent those dick pics, I said ‘let me get on my fake email’ – but it is not on my phone and my internet wasn’t working properly, so I used my real email. Dumb and dumber.

        Gotta go out into really crapola weather! Hope you are having a good day and I will ‘see’ you later this evening! Smooches!

        1. Kim e says:

          I am sure that just like you not being comfortable with it in the beginning, the dirty talk would have progressed. Maybe I just thought you have plenty of others that can talk dirty to you. That is not what I want to do.
          I always thought that knowing about W was a catch 22. It was like we had something over them. Over the others in his “matrix”. But then I was always trying to not set him off. Which like HG says is impossible to gauge.
          Done talking about W tonight. Need to get my mind onto other things like I am off Friday…YES!!!!! I did not get to work out tonight as I ended up working late. My boss pissed me off. If I dont get what I asked for at raise time……Might be time to look for another job.
          Be careful out there little lady…channeling John Wayne……..

          1. SMH says:

            Kim e, What did you want to do? It’s just a kind of foreplay, really.

            I’d never done it before and I haven’t done it since. It was my little thing with MRN. But like you, I realized that I was walking on eggshells too. Not because he would get angry – he was the calmest person I have ever known – but because he might disappear. Ultimately feeling like a ping pong ball outweighed all else.

            I too felt the power but I gave him a million chances to leave and we talked about ‘the situation’ a number times. I also never resurfaced with the intention of getting back with him – I always thought he must have come to his senses. Yet he couldn’t even receive a ‘hey’ from me without getting all hot (seriously). Body language became our language, and it was very powerful until I broke the spell when I left the FR for the last time. I have zero regrets about it. In fact, I hope to have that again one day with someone, but only if their brain is wired to see me as multi-dimensional.

            I hope you get your raise. Is it easy for you to find a new job if necessary? Would you really want to? Moving and another job! That would be a lot on your plate!

          2. Kim e says:

            Foreplay….haha. True. At the time I was still upset that there were “others” and figured go somewhere else and find that shit.

            As of right this second if I heard from W I would go back. Or not. Or maybe. I am so paranoid of a hoover. Because I really am not sure how I will react. Today is 11 weeks and I feel weaker than I did 3 weeks ago. Yesterday was hell. I almost unblocked all day long and said F it. Play the game again and when you are done, ghost again. But then I think if he gets tired of playing the game with me and discards me I would be crushed. And then my LT says SHUT UP!!!!! I had such a headache.

            My job is very hard to find someone with my experience in the type of software I support. When I was laid off my other job after 30 years, it took me 5 months to the day to start a new job. BUT I am not 5.5 years older and even tho that should not make a deal to the employer, it does to me. I dont want to start over. I plan on working at least 7 more years.
            That is why I do not want to mvoe either. When I move, I plan on it being the last move of my life. As I really do not know if it was W knocking on my door ( or do I ) I have no immediate plans to move. My an my DLS ass are staying put.

            Going to find food. I am off tomorrow as discussed before and will be here late tonight as it has been a cluster fuck all week.


          3. SMH says:

            Kim e, Your DLS ass. Lol. I seem to have ditched my DLS mojo along with MRN.

            Sorry your ET was high today. I had quite some too. No idea why. Maybe it’s the weather. I hate to say that it will happen for the rest of our lives but I am afraid it will. What a headache. In some ways I wish for a direct hoover just to get it over with and I think that’s what you’re feeling too. We want our balance back and it seems impossible as long as we are in what feels like a stand off. But then I try to remind myself that living in limbo with the N is hard too. Can’t live with ’em or without ’em!

            As for the sexting, it’s quite possible MRN had others online but I’m pretty sure he did not irl because it was a condition of mine for the affair. He did once try to triangulate me with someone else (and IPPS at the time time) but that was before the affair part.

            If you are hard to replace then you should get your raise!

            Hope you found something good to nosh. I went food shopping the other day but there is nothing to eat. How does that happen??!!

            I’ll be out gallivanting around tomorrow and through the weekend (nothing that exciting) but here tonight.

          4. Kim e says:

            I agree. Just wish it would happen and get it over with.
            Rum and coke for dinner. Day from hell….it just never stopped. Tired and look forward to sleeping in tomorrow. 0700 is sleeping in for me. Then I have a full 2 days. Enough to keep busy and ET low.
            I am amazed at the fact that you honestly think that your MRN had no others. I dont believe it for a minute. Maybe not in person but how many virtual were there. And if you were a DLS what about his IPSS’s that were not DLS”s? Not questioning to judge, just confused as to even with every thing we have learned here about fuel matrix’s…real and virtual…that you can still make that statement.
            Our building where I work had Holiday Delights for the building about the time I was looking for food so I went and ate sweets and apple cider….LOL. Couple brownies, cookie, lemon pastry……the list goes on. Then tonight I had a Rum and Coke for dinner. Yep…day from hell.
            When you go gallivanting I am sure anything could become exciting.
            Just a warning that the weather we get here usually heads your way within a couple days. Next week looking at highs in the teens with snow and 50 MPH winds. Just giving you something to look forward to and make your new boots happy!!!!

          5. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            I know it sounds naive but I only cared about irl. Virtual matrices are beyond my ability to police! We discussed it, made a pact and I knew who IPPS was (he knew that I knew). We had overlapping social circles and his facade was really important to him, including his kids, who were connected to mine. He knew that if I found out there was anyone else, it wouldn’t be pretty. In fact, one reason I told IPPS was because several months post- escape, the day I was watching him delete the emails, I noticed another woman’s name at the top of his fake email inbox. Unfortunately, it was too quick for me to catch the full name because I would have contacted her, but it did prompt me to contact IPPS. I told her she needed to protect herself. Had I gotten an inkling of anything like that while we were still in the FR, I would have done a lot worse and he knew it.

            I could go on but he was not a good liar and he knew I was perceptive. It was not some gaga romantic thing – it was a deal. I did not have anything to lose and it is not a good idea for a mm to get involved with a single woman. You can’t buy her silence and since I did not want to be IPPS, there was no reason for me to remain silent. He had to trust me too, right? It is also not the case that all narcs/all mid-rangers have extensive real life fuel matrices. ExLH had literally no friends, for instance. They have to be exceptionally charming/elite, right? Because they are tiring to deal with, and not everyone or everything they touch turns to gold.

            Speaking of which, narc friend is texting. You would think that she would have a huge fuel matrix but she does not. I am the one she turns to first for a lot of things and she NEVER asks how I am or what I am doing (MRN would at least pretend). It is irritating but I realize that she is lonely underneath it all and I think MRN was too.

            You had a lot of sugar yesterday! Oh my! I had a salad for dinner :). Thank you for the heads up re the weather. I haven’t yet looked out the window today but soon I have to go out…in my new boots! I hope for some excitement but am prepared for just normal stuff.

            I hope your ET is not too high today. Writing all of this out made me angry. But it was a good exercise, so thank you for asking. I will check in later tonight. Muah!

          6. Kim e says:

            Doesn’t sound naive at all. What is naive is that I never ever thought of virtual stuff. I learned about it in a consultation email with HG and was blown away. For all my worldly experiences and street smarts I learned a lesson that there are many things happening out there and I just found myself in the middle of one of them that was completely new to me.
            I am sorry it made you angry. I worried about that when I asked the question but figured if you didnt want to go there you wouldnt.
            I do not believe W has a lot of friends either. He is very rigid with his schedule and very rarely in the past when I would keep an eye on him, did him and the Misses ever go out on a weekend night. They appear to do 2 – 3 vacations a year. But since I do not watch his abode any longer, I dont know anything.
            So strange that I used to see him and his wife coming and going all the time and now nothing. When HG says part of shelving is not seeing, I guess he means it literally.
            In May, my friend told me that W was sitting with someone new on the train. That she was very old and loud. I blocked him. That same day on my afternoon train I ran into another friend that word for word told me the exact same thing. I played stupid with both of them. That night as I was turning into my subdivision, I see W’s wife. See just stares at me………….
            I had at that point in time been with him again regularly since January. So when I heard of this in May my heart sank. You know the rest from there…
            ET is there today as I suspect it will be for sometime. Every time I have felt like this before I have unblocked him and waited. He always comes around. But this time I thought sure he always comes around 3 months later…..then I remember my cozy little compartment he keeps me in and sigh.
            You were having a conversation with someone on here, I dont remember who, and she said she was OK with just hearing from her N whenever cuz they were friends to start with. My mind said YES….I can do that too. But there is another part of my mind that agrees with you NOPE….I am not going to play that game. It is me only or I am gone. So that is I think one thing that triggered my ET this week. Me agreeing with her. My ET seized the thought and went with it. IT said what is the worse that can happen.
            Oh well….I can relate to W with the Wash rinse repeat cycle of this. I am getting tired of it. I just want to cry now.
            Gotta go put on my happy face and see people now.
            I will check later when I get back from visiting Christmas land…..

          7. SMH says:

            Kim e, Hope Christmas land cheered you up a bit or that you at least got a few drinks and maybe some roasted nuts out of it. Dry those tears young lady!

            I didn’t much think about the virtual either. I did not truly suspect him of doing that with anyone else, to be honest. He’d surely done it before but not while we were together. The only reason I mention it is because some people on here think I am wrong, and say ‘what about the virtual’? so I concede a bit – maybe virtual (but I don’t think so). Anyway, I never asked about it or if there was anyone else, other than IPPS, either. I never suspected him because I asked him not to do anything like that and I trusted him not to. I didn’t think he had any reason to either. IPPS and I were both good fuel sources and MRN had no time. He also had 3 grown daughters, one or of two of where around all the time keeping an eye on him for IPPS. Unless he was at work or with me, one of them was always watching him He is weirdly rigid in some ways too, including how he handled me and IPPS.

            Anyway, this is/was all completely new to me too. But I don’t understand something – did HG tell you in general about virtual or did he say that in your case, W had virtual fuel sources?

            When you saw him on the train with someone new, what did that mean? Was he just sitting with her? Did he shelve you to be with her? What about the situation made you block him and why had you blocked him other times? For the same thing? I might have missed the beginning of your story because we only met around August, when you were struggling with him being away for a month.

            I admit during the exchange you mention, I also had a fleeting thought that MRN and I could be friends but more it made me think about the stress of trying. Also, were we in contact and feeling the same attraction, I wou;dn’t be happy as just friends and I would also be miserable back in the FR after awhile. It might be exhilarating at first but it would quickly go downhill. It’s too bad because there are things I miss about him but either way, I’d end up with crumbs. The others started out as NISS so maybe they are used to playing that role but I did not. Did you?

            My writing is getting lazy and woozy because I am getting lazy and woozy. Must go to sleep. Hope you feel better. Talk tomorrow. Muah.

          8. SMH says:

            Kim e, I am afraid to click on the link. What is it? HG decided to go on hiatus so I guess we have lost the thread of our convo but nothing much new in my world. Had a busy but uneventful weekend with a slightly arrogant normal (assuming a normal is someone who is not a narcissist or an empath). I guess today is Wednesday but I can’t say I have done anything remarkable or that anything remarkable has happened this week, except that I have lost track of time… But I am happy and my ET has been very low, maybe because I haven’t been here. It’s a trade off. Hope all is well and calm with you. xo

          9. Kim e says:

            What do you mean what is the link? You
            have been a dlsipss to a narc and you are worried about a link I sent to you??? WTF LOL. And you gotta figure HG let it thru moderation so
            it can’t be bad
            I replied to all the messages you sent me. Look on WordPress. Easiest way to find them. Last one you talked about some app called Text Me (?) and said that is probably how W is getting in touch with me. It is on the Come One Come All
            Nothing new here either. Busy with bs stuff last weekend and super busy at work this week ET been up and down. I am good as long as I force myself not to look towards his house to see if he is back. I tell myself it is none of my business
            Just been reading here and listening to HG call me a pervert. I think he meant it as a compliment 😂😂
            Getting pruny sitting in tub. Gotta go. Catch up later. Look for some of my old replies unless they are still in moderation.
            Tell me about your “normal”

          10. SMH says:

            Kim e, or should I call you pruny? Glad you are good. and not looking. I can’t find the link now. That’s weird. TextMe was ages ago (I think) but I will find it if it wasn’t. Haven’t been on here in a few days. I think I found it was triggering and I was spending too much time feeding both my internet and narc addictions.

            Normal – I thought about it after last weekend and I think it is the lack of ET but also not needing someone else’s ET the way narcs do. Normals therefore have very little ET and they do not appreciate it in others. Strangely, this normal has several high ET friends but is quite disdainful of their drama, so seeks it out only to criticize it? I don’t know. Still figuring it out.

            Saw psychotic person today, speaking of ET. She would not open the door so we spoke through window glass. She is paranoid about my friend, who she claimed has different ‘energies’ or something like that, is on a different path and they have nothing in common right now, so she did not want to hear from her. She also accused my friend of working for a spy agency in DC. She did it all very politely, as she is well bred!! Completely ignored me (doesn’t know me) – just smiled. My friend was upset of course but at least we now know she is alive and kicking, so that’s something…

            I’ll have to find where HG called you a pervert…smooches back.

          11. Kim e says:

            Hi. Just checking in to see if we both are sane. I for one have been sick. Slept the majority of the time from Sunday at 10AM to Tuesday at 4AM. I have noticed that I have was NEVER sick until I got involved with W. NEVER. If I missed a day of work, my coworkers sent out the national guard to find me.
            I am at work today. Did not miss anything.
            Any other contact with the Normal?
            I feel bad for your friend and her psychotic friend. I take it your friend is an empath and feels responsible for her friend?
            Hope CIF is ok and her N went away.
            ET comes and goes. I am still on the OMG…I want him back side of it, but my LT fights for me.
            Spent 8 hours with female family members doign the annual cookie bake on Saturday. I did not bake this year. Just drank and did the dishes as they showed up. Been not sure if it is depressed or just still going thru withdrawal. Not wanting to really see people. Kinda weepy this morning listneing to HG.

          12. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e, The link doesn’t work for me. When I follow it by logging into FB, it says “doesn’t exist” or something like that. What is it about?

            Sorry you are weepy (I think that was yesterday?) and have not been feeling well. The stress from Ns can do that, though for me it was always more mental than physical. I hope sleeping in helped you to sleep it off and your LT continues to win out over your ET. I know you will get there – just be aware that you will probably have a relapse after the holidays because you’ll be busy and then suddenly not. Januarys were dangerous for me. I think feeling depressed and not wanting to see people is normal for this ‘journey’ but it doesn’t mean you are depressed in a clinical sense. Hope you are still looking forward to the holidays. Do you have a plan for Xmas day? If not, remember it is just one day and it will pass.

            I think CIF is good as I saw some of her comments on here – she was feisty with HG :).

            I’ve been fine. Not thinking about MRN much, though I have 7 spam friend requests. Do not look at LinkedIn anymore so I cannot tell if I have private views. Finished a project with MWG (married work guy). We’ve been going back and forth for days and I feel myself slipping back into work wife territory. I am still undecided as to whether he’s a narc but that he’s married is enough reason to be on guard.

            Interesting Q about my friend. I did not think she was an empath but after the incident with her psycho friend, I see that she is. I talked to her about it over breakfast afterwards – about how I understood wanting to fix people, help them and be responsible for them, that she had done what she can, etc. I think she feels better now that she has seen her in the flesh.

            As for The Normal, no more contact. She never reaches out – it’s kind of weird, actually, but to me she’s very self-contained, which might be another sign of a Normal? I am actually annoyed about something she said and thought of writing to her about it but as usual, I let things slide until I have an explosion.

            Had dinner with a few friends last night. Meanwhile, another friend’s sort of ex-H died in his sleep, so long talk with her when I got home. I suspect she is also a Normal (clearly I am honing my Normal radar). Tomorrow I have to travel. Friday a friend is in town. Saturday I have a party. Looking forward to Sunday when I won’t have anything to do but finish my Xmas shopping!

            Hope your day is better today – remember that what goes up (ET, see saws), must come down! Smooches back and I will check in later to see if you have written. I am here if you need to talk.

          13. Kim e says:

            HI SMH.
            I cant find the link on here or FB again. It was soemthing about how 2018 sucked, 2019 was about healing and 2020 would be great.
            At work coughing like a fool and lacking energy. Boss in a conference todaya nd tomorrow so I am stuck here. I am cancelling all my stuff for the weekend and nursing me. I am also off on Monday from work. I have appointments that day but even if I cancel the appointments, I am taking the day off.
            No after the holiday relapse will be allowed here. I am still fighting “UNBLOCK HIM” ET BS thoughts every day. I refuse to start over. He can hoover me until he has little wound marks all over him. I ain’t doing it again. (Please dont hold it against me if I fail…LOL)
            I saw your friend as an empath from the first time you described what you and her did. A normal would not do that. They would be like,,,,,”I called and she didnt answer.” “She will be ok”. She would not have gone out of her way to go to her the other girls house and look for her. Yep….empath for sure.
            I dont know if I know any normals. I am sure I do but Inever really thought about it. I have never had a lot of “friends”. Always been a loner I guess. I was an only child and learned to entertain myself. I do have friends but I really can only handle dealing with one at the time. Most of my “friend groups” are seperate from each other. I have airshow friends. I have Military friends. I have get in touch with you when I am bored friends. Very indepenent as that is how I was forced to be.
            I tell you this because it is very hard for me at times to keep busy and forget about W. A lot of the time it is me with me hanging out with me. It has been 12 weeks NC as of yesterday. I am proud of myself but at this point in time really find no joy in it. My emotions are still dead….boy I can fake it good when needed tho.

            How do you have a sort of exH?

            Saturday even if I am not 100% I have to get out of the house. Going to the movies and dinner with Kathi. She has been sick also, it is going around here. She battled cancer and I get really nervous whenever she gets sick. Yesterday it was VERY cold here but I had to go w=for a walk at lunch. Was out about 20 minutes and the sun felt great. Need to revive my soul.

            Sorry. Did not mean to be Debbie Downer.
            Sent kids a wine basket that they loved so that made me happy.
            I hate the holidays. I swear next year I am going somewhere………..maybe NYC!!!!

            Check in when you can. thanks for keeping tabs on me.


          14. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e,

            You sound really under the weather. Glad you have a few days to recuperate.

            That 2019-2020 thing works for me too – 2018 was hellish, 2019 not so bad and I did focus on healing. I am optimistic about 2020 and you should be too! Very good reminder to yourself when you feel down that you do not want to start over and go through it all again. I know it feels like forever but 12 weeks is still early in the game. If you are tempted to unblock him, tell yourself that there is always tomorrow (and then tomorrow and then tomorrow).

            I am also somewhat of a loner or maybe I’ve turned into one. I don’t really have friend groups anymore. A few I normally see together but mostly not. My friend with the psycho friend also has cancer. Long term and will never be cured. They keep finding new ways to torture her but it keeps her alive. Mentally she is very strong. She is also highly intelligent and intellectualizes everything. This is probably why I wasn’t sure if she was an empath. ExHs – that friend left her H a decade ago but they never divorced and were in touch. She was there when he died. Psycho friend of friend thinks her own exH did die (he did not – it’s someone else with the same name). I guess that is another way or sort of having an exH? haha

            Wine basket to your sons? They opened it already? Where’s the fun in that??! Yeah, next year you come to NYC and spend the holidays with me! I was thinking of Chicago today because it was freezing out – like Chicago weather. I had to cover my eyeballs with sunglasses. xo

          15. SMH says:

            Kim e, I had a wobble last night. No idea why. I even went so far as to sleuth a bit (didn’t find anything) and to write an email (didn’t send it). But then I slept fine and it is not bothering me this morning. I think I handle it by taking steps to indulge my ET and, like you, stopping myself with my LT or just letting the ET dissipate like a vapor.

          16. Kim e says:

            It is a day by day struggle. How long since you had contact? As long as the LT smacks the shit out of the ET, we are good. It is when it is the other way around, where we get messed up
            Proud of you!!! Sounds like something I would do. Just gotta get those urges out of our system some way
            My ET last night said…just unblock for the holidays. He wont text anyway so what it is the difference. My LT said The difference is if he does text, says HI, you chat for a couple and then he is just gone again…..no good bye…..who is hurt by it? You are. Dont do it.
            I will write more later. I feel like crap. Have a respritory infection and a UTI. At work only because my boss is in a conference all day and noone else here does what we do. Off for 3 days now.
            Also, got my review today and lots of money!!!!! So not a total waste of time.
            I will get back to you

          17. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e, Lotsa money is great! Well deserved I am sure! I am sorry you are feeling so unwell. Hope you can knock it out over the weekend. My advice would be to eat whole garlic cloves and put hydrogen peroxide in your ears (seriously), though you might need antibiotics for the UTI.

            Your LT is more logical than my LT. My LT just says there were reasons why you left him five times. Maybe you cannot remember those reasons now but trust the other side of your brain when it says don’t do it!!

            I think I figured out why I had a wobble. I worked fairly intensely with MWG over a few days – at his beck and call. I find myself acting with him the way I did with MRN. There is an eerily similar dynamic so he must be a similar type of narc. Maybe empaths can tell who the narcs are not just by the narc’s behavior but also by the way WE act around THEM – a symbiotic relationship. Maybe we are our own narc detectors.

            Rest up and I will read you later. Smooches.

          18. Kim e says:

            Hi. How you be? Not sure what I replied to last. Not really wanting to correspond but wanted to tell you to have a great Xmas and New Year. Hope mom behaves for you.
            Til next year………

          19. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e, I did wonder how you were, so am happy to hear from you. Hope you are feeling better now. All is well, calm and bright here (no virgins around though). Wishing you a great (hoover-free) Xmas and New Year’s too, even if I am writing this on a thread called ‘dick pics.’ Will see you on the flip side — remember that 2020 will be a great year!

            Wishing EVERYONE a wonderful festive period, including you HG! Smooches to one and all! xxxx

          20. Kim e says:

            Hello, Hope Christmas was good. Mine was quiet with syking and talking to the kids.
            Back to work today listening to Zero Impact on the train. I was relistening because I could not for the life of me figure out why all of a sudden I was back in the toilet. I knew it has nothing to do with Christmas as Christmas and W do not computer for me. There was never interaction hence no memories. I could not figure out why my ET was so high again when it had been getting a little better.
            Then listneing to Zero Impact again, BINGO….my LT clicked in and I knew why.
            After I say this, HG will say I need to start my NC from scratch and damn if he is not right again.
            I dont think I told you that on Thanksgiving I did not even think about it and as I was leaving my neighborhood, I glanced towards his house. I might have told this and if I have I apologize for the repeat. BUT that is why I have been in a funk again. My ET keeps me looking down the damn street now. I see he is back home but I know he is off work until 1/2. BUT I notice that his car has not moved. Are they on vacation? Where did they go? When will they be back. I am stuck int he fucking loop again…….shit shit shit.
            Just typing this makes me feel lighter. I now know that I can NEVER….at least not for the forseeable future, look down the streent towards his house. It is my new reality just as going to the new train station is.
            You have no idea how happy I am that I can tell you this because as we know so well if I thld this to someone that did not know about my addiction, they would think I had lost my mind. What do you meanyouu cant look at his house? That is absurd. I agree….but it is my new reality.
            Babbling again…..tell me what is up with you. What have you been doing?

          21. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e,

            I am here. You are making perfect sense to me of course. Had I been able to see MRN’s house things would have been much worse. I guess we get involved like this thinking it will just be a fling so it doesn’t matter, and then they colonize our brain reward centers and hook into whatever controls our emotional thinking. This wouldn’t happen with just anyone, right? Didn’t happen for me with OM, for instance. Why? I have NO idea but it sure is frustrating.

            Maybe it doesn’t matter if the narc lives next door or in a different country. For instance, for me, Christmas was nice – I was totally centered. I had this very peaceful feeling – I even wrote it down because it really felt like letting go – but today I feel like I am about to break NC! It’s crazy. I even felt MRN’s presence in that space between wake and sleep this morning, and it’s been ages since that happened. We never communicated over the Xmas holidays either and there haven’t been any triggers other than jail ex messaging me for no particular reason – actually, I think he saw a new picture of me. Maybe I am worried that MRN will hoover in 2020? Or maybe I am hoping he does?

            So I don’t know. I wish I had an answer for you – a magic wand to make it all go away. I guess Zero Impact is the closest any of us can get to that magic.

            What are your weekend plans?


          22. Kim e says:

            The extremely absurd thing about it is the time I was with him I never looked for his house. He told me he lived at the end of the block and that was it. I knew the street number from cyber snooping. I would even go for walks and turn BEFORE I got to where his house was unknowing. Once I was discarded all bets were off. I drove by, hid by a neighbors watching for him to leave……I knew where he lived then.

            Maybe your ET woke up and freaked out that you were not as attached as before. Jail ex? what is that or who is that? Messaging you? You got some splaining to do….LOL. In trouble again. Cant leave you alone at all.
            And I am with you on the hoovering part. Scared to death he will but craving it. Holding firm on NC but I revert back to things I said before. I know myself, before and after W, and I truly need him to show me his asshole side before I truly think my mind will be able to truly let him go. I know HG will say that is ET. That he showed me his asshole side by treating me the way he did. BUT my minds eye doesn’t see it like that. All ET? ET with LT mixed in?
            NC still new……could just be the rambles of a mad woman.
            I really wasn’t looking for an answer. Sorry if I gave you that impression. Just stating my thoughts on my journey.
            Weekend plans……chiro this morning, Italian tonight, normal Sunday chores and such.
            I am working Monday and Thursday this coming week. Need the time off to still recover from being sick but mentally don’t want the down time

          23. SMH says:

            Kim e, I can see myself doing something similar with the house thing. I don’t know why I never did it with MRN, though I had his address. Maybe because I didn’t really think about him much outside of the working week. But I did look at the house online, mostly to be sure that I had the right one. I had seen some pics on his IG and then found a match on a real estate site.

            Sometimes I cannot believe how smart he was in some ways and how dumb he was in others. I even thought at times that he wanted me to tell IPPS – that is how reckless he was. Did he really think I would not find her email? Their home phone and address? Or did he not care? What do you think regarding W? Why did he tell you where he lived in the first place? Did he know what he was doing or did he just not think about it?

            Good observation about ET. Yesterday was fine so it was fleeting. I guess there is something comforting about that attachment to the narc. That feeling that everything is fine for the moment. As far as them being assholes goes, I get flashes of that occasionally – oh he’s an asshole. I knew he was from the day I met him. Yet they never allow us to see enough of them to remove doubt because we believe the best about people or maybe we just like assholes? Ha.

            Jail ex – I am sure I told you about him. My other traumatic relationship. Long story but it was decades ago. We had not been in touch for ages until MRN mentioned a provincial city in a developing country where jail ex and I used to hang out. So I tracked him down. It was somewhat cathartic at first and then it did not matter. I don’t feel attached to him at all but we are friends on FB and I think he thinks I am still attached to him, so he is somewhat arrogant. I can see what an asshole he is! Learning from HG, I let him say what he wanted to say and then I ignored him :).

            This is why I sometimes think it is better to be in touch than to not be, because it gives us a chance to see through them. I suspect – I know – that if both of us had had more regular relationships with the Ns we’d be done by now. We’re not doormats or surrogate mommies. But the relationships were not allowed to run their course, again because the Ns did not allow us to see them in all of their asshole glory.

            Did see mom and kids for the holidays. Two kids here right now (one for Xmas) and then someone else coming when they leave. I am off sugar now too and also need to get to the gym. You and I are on the same wavelength in many ways and yes, the NC will get better. Even if you have some wobbles now and then, they will get shorter and further apart. I am just sorry you have to live near him – it would be easier without that extra hurdle.

            I am glad you are feeling better, at any rate, and have New Year’s plans. I don’t but then I never do because I don’t like NYE. I usually go to sleep before midnight! New Year’s Day I will have people over.

            Have a good day doing chores and talk later! (I am not getting many notifications, I guess because I have not commented much lately – but I appreciate HG letting us talk to each other – thanks, HG!)

          24. Kim e says:

            Nope. Never heard about jail ex. I take it he was an N?!?
            As far as where he lives goes, I think he mentioned it just to mention it. No particular reason….but then again he is a N.
            I find it so interesting that for as long as you have had NC you still spy. I would think /hope after that amount of time you really wouldn’t care. Why do you think that is?
            Been sleeping alot again. The cough is gone but now I am feeling congestion in my chest. Getting out of breath. I took an allergy pill today and it seems to hep somewhat.
            Hate that I really dont feel anything. I met up with my old trainer last night for dinner but could really have cared less. Just want to veg and be alone. Not sure if this is part of the process but it sucks.
            LOL…yea I think you have to post to get replies.

          25. SMH says:

            Kim e, That virus is really lingering, isn’t it? Sucks.

            Not sure about jail ex but probably. If he is one then there is hope because I was over it as soon as I found out. I had also warned him that he would end up in jail (actually, what I told him was that someone was going to kill him). The current Ns will get theirs too!

            Dk why I still spy but I don’t think it’s that unusual. I’ve caught former non-N partners spying on me decades later. Just curiosity, I guess. But I don’t really spy – I haven’t googled him, don’t know where he works or his current address, etc. Next month I will be in a situation where I will meet people who know them. I might even be asked to correspond with them. Weird, huh? But it’s his fault. He knew from the day we met that there were only two degrees of separation between us and he lied to me anyway. The last thing I said to him is that I could not forgive him for lying and I sometimes think this whole thing is because I’m getting back at him for it. The worst is yet to come. Ha.

            Was the dinner with the trainer a date? Wanting to be alone is part of the process, though I have found that the more I am alone, the more I want to be alone. Not sure it is healthy but I seem to be fine – not mentally deranged or anything. You seem okay too, apart from a bit weepy and blah – the not feeling anything. I don’t think we can expect to get back to how we were after such trauma. But maybe your self-isolation is partly also due to being sick?

            I guess I haven’t commented much or maybe people just aren’t responding to me! I haven’t been able to concentrate for more than a few minutes. This week will be just as bad!!

            Hope you have a good day and keep busy.

          26. Kim e says:

            Trainer is a female and it was one of those things that sounded like a good idea when it was set up. I am not really a fan of her…her mom and gramma are both N’s. She is messed up and in my opinion is co-dep on a friend of hers. I do not believe this friend is a N but I think hse latched onto her for some “normalcy” in her life and is still latched. Plus the trainer is 26 years old. Everyone in my life lately has been in hteir 20′ or 30’s. WTF!!!!!
            Yea. I guess you are right as I looked up an old flame on FB the other night. I guess it just scares me to think of looking at W’s FB and being triggered. But after ZI kicks in,……I should be good to go.
            I have to keep reminding myslef that it is a process. This wasnt just a guy and we broke up. The addiction is real and still there. I am very impatient to start with so the fact that I have to work thru this and it is a long process kills me. Many degrees of emotional changes.
            I believe my being impatient is what lead to my demise with W. I wanted to push it faster than he did for reasons that did not of course become obvious to me until after.
            The fact that I had the audacity to call him out on a lie and then not comply with his corrective devaluation was my complete downfall. He told me I insulted his integrity. I asked him if that was the name of the airline he did not fly to Vegas on for Thanksgiving with the family because he sure as hell didnt have any of his own.
            He had been very “careful” up until that point wit the lies but for some reason he changed his story 3 times within 40 minutes and my LT woke up and said WTH is going on.
            My self isolation is starting to bother me. I feel like a troll living under a bridge. But if you say that is part of the process, I will go with the flow a while longer. I have been using the holidays as a excuse to not work out or watch food intake, but after the holidays, I have to get back into the swing. Plus I pay all this money to work out and it is going right down the toilet.
            I am working today so mind will be occupied for the day. Maybe go clothes shopping after work…make myself feelworth something again.
            What is your schedule like this week? I saw CIF comment so I know she is alive. I was starting to worry.
            My concentrration is bad too. I cant watch a movie without checking phone all the time. I turn phone off a lot during the day just to clear my head.
            I did recualk my tub for the last 3 days. I can see the jealousy in your yes…LOL. Or maybe they are bloodshot.
            Pot legal here 1/1/20. Gonna celebrate on 12/31/19 with edibles. My sons will be together in Denver…wish I was with them.
            HI HG and Happy New Year!!!

          27. SMH says:

            Kim e, Ah, 20-somethings. I’ve recently been on the warpath about 23 year old girls. They are all incredibly rude! But tonight I am having dinner with one of my favorite females who is not a 20-something or even a 30-something. Family stuff midweek and then seeing a gay male friend whose partner killed himself last year. I believe CIF said she would not be back until after New Year’s so I have not worried about her. I do hope she has not had more encounters.

            So, W told you whoppers too. Was he with someone else when he said he was going to Vegas? How far in did this happen? I knew MRN was lying from the get go but I’d never been with anyone who had lied and I did not know what to make of it. It kind of fascinated me, so I dug further into his life to figure out the truth and also what compelled him to lie. I’d even find websites to help me to understand why lying was problematic (that is how foggy I was – I’d completely lost my moral compass).

            At one point I *suddenly* (duh) realized that MRN was treating IPPS the same way he treated me. I told him I felt caught up in his web of lies and to stop lying to her. He did not even recognize that he was lying. The flip side is that he would think I would think he was lying when I did not and then he’d feel pressured. It all began to feel so gross and twisted that I just wanted the truth to come out, so I told IPPS myself. Since I was pretty sure that she had kicked him out once before and all the stuff about reconciliation was true, I did not think I had to tell her very much. I now wish that I had told her it was me at the other end of the keyboard but I was too nervous and had too much on my plate to get too caught up in it.

            I am curious about the friend who got divorced because she is very much like IPPS and I don’t think divorce happens much in their social circle since the facade is so important to all of them. IPPS is also Catholic (MRN is not).

            I have not been to the gym for awhile either. Every time I pick a day to go, something comes up or I am too lazy to put on my gym clothes and shower afterwards. Lame, I know. I cut out gluten when I feel blah.

            You re-caulked your bathtub and I tried to fix my toilet seat. Lol. So no jealousy here! I think the concentration problem is partly due to the holidays – everything kind of slows way down, including our brains. But clothes shopping sounds like a good remedy. There should be good sales on.

            Pot is going to be legal in Illinois? You’ll be stoned all the time!

            I think I thought HG wasn’t putting comments through, but since he is…I’ll be checking in. Smooches and talk later. Hang in there!

          28. Kim e says:

            Not sure why but this really triggered me. The talking about W and when the facade started to fall apart. Must still really be raw for me.
            I did not want to not reply. You know us empaths…dont want hurt anyone. But right now, I just cant. My brain wont let me. Please do not think you can not bring up questions to me. You know I have answered before. but this time for some reason I need space between the question and the answer.
            But have a great New Years and I promise I will answer.
            Double smoochies and I will eat a gummy (wink wink) for you!!!!

          29. SMH says:

            Kim e, Sorry – I had no idea. When you are ready I will tell you my own triangulation/facade falling apart story when MRN totally set me up and then pulled the rug out from under me. That was also super painful but eventually I realized that he was a fantasist as well as a liar, which really helped me to get past it. W is probably a fantasist too.

            Just came in from shopping and think I will have a snooze. Have fun with your friend tonight. Don’t overdo the gummies and then come on here to write. lol. I did that a few weeks ago – took a sleeping pill and wrote on here just as it was kicking in. In the morning I remembered and was petrified :).

          30. Kim e says:

            No worries. Of course you could have no idea.
            Just still very raw for me as it is when my dream came crashing down.
            Still not ready to talk about it.
            LOL….do I dare ask what you posted in your sleepy time haze????
            I took a sleeping pill once and then called a friend to meet for breakfast the next morning. Int he morning my phone was ringing and buzzing. As soon as I looked and saw his name, i was like OH SHIT. I forgot completely about making the plans….LOL. Good thing he knew me so well…..

          31. SMH says:

            Kim e, I don’t remember what I posted but whatever it was, it did not get any weird push back, so it couldn’t have been that bad. I don’t normally do anything odd on sleeping pills, like make plans! lol. But I do not take them that often. Know where I got these? The friend whose bf killed himself gave them to me. It is what the bf used. How twisted is that?!

            I just asked you if you were ready to talk about it but feel free to ignore. When you are ready, I am here. Just know you are not alone. Maybe you will get something out of my thought processes.

          32. Kim e says:

            That is just wrong about the pills that were used for suicide. Gives me the creeps.
            Right about now I am trigger free as I have unblocked. ET has wonthis round. I will not contact him and hope he does not contact me before my LT kicks back in. Just needed to apply the relief valve to my process.
            Just a matter of time before I say F it gain and start all over.
            Had a case of vertigo yesterday. I have had the issue for a couple years now. No way for me to predict when it will happen. I was doing laundry, put in a load and sat ont he couch and that was it. Spinning and sick to stomach. Had to finish laundry between naps.
            Then the spin sycle went out on the washer with my quilt in it. Long story short….repair guy coming Saturday.
            Happy 2020. My life is just getting more exciting as it goes on.
            Maybe HG will let us meet up if we invite him along……that would be a hoot!!!!!
            JK HG………

          33. SMH says:

            Kim e, Good morning! I am fighting a head cold that is blocking one of my ears, speaking of vertigo. Did you have it before you met W? I had a lot of anxiety and asthma attacks at one point with MRN. I once told him about some of it and asked him to stay in touch. He did every day for a whole month. My ET calmed down and I might have even been getting a bit bored with him but suddenly he disappeared for days and it all came rushing back.

            I was thinking last night about the futility of trying to explain to someone who has no emotions and cannot read other people what it means to be human. I couldn’t give MRN a blueprint of how to act, try as I might. He had to sense it, and he couldn’t. He was consistently inconsistent. Do you think W is any different that way? As far as unblocking goes, well, I am not one to insist on blocking because I haven’t blocked (there is really nothing to block in my case except for email, and I cannot block that). But I can see how it is both helpful and might make things worse, at least for awhile. I too hope your LT kicks in before W notices and I hope you don’t answer those calls. But if you really do break NC, I’ll still be here for you. Not giving up!

            Who told you he was gone for 5 weeks? How many people do you have in common? I am lucky in that I do not know anyone who knows MRN.

            And yes, the pills are creepy but to my mind funny creepy. I didn’t ask for them. Smooches.

          34. Kim e says:

            Head colds are the worst. One ear blocked might be a good thing depending on sho is spouting their BS to you.!!!! Hoep you feel better.
            I had veritigo before W…yes. I have had motion sickness my whole life but it is controlled with Dramimine. Vertigo…not so much. I am down for the count for the day of and in a complete fog the next day. I am going 1/20 to have my inner inner ears checked. Freind is taking me in case they induce vertigo and I cant get home.
            I wen thru a breast cancer scare with W. He was very attentive…asked all kinds of questions. Of course it was the GP. And I am sure reseach was done in case it is ever needed again in the future. It was nice at the time. I do not feel like he misled me as he was being him
            I have decided that is the key to it…either accespt for what are or get out. I never would try to explain to W anything about emotions as he told me he did not do them. “Sex is an action”. I used to tell him how I was feeling about things and he would listen attentively sometimes cocking his head like a dog hearing a new noise. When I was finished I would thank him for letting me speak my truth and then we would move on. I never tried to change hoim, tell him what he was, explain to him why he acted/reacted the way he did. Why bother. I either decide I am going to be with him regardless of his narcism because I enjoy him and knowing that he will break me or I get the hell out. Right now I am leaning more towards the enjoying him part but not sure.
            I told WiserNow that I am at complete peace today. Listening to music which I have not done in a while. able to do more than one thing at a time. Is it because I have made a decsion…whether it is good or bad? I cant tell you. I am sure it is my ET screaming “YES…I got her hooked again”. I am sure those calls coming thru to my work number have something to do with it.
            Maybe this is me just being stubborn again and experimenting. Right now…..I dont care.
            You can block people individually on your email account. Not to piss you off but I have always thought that if your N showed back up or contacted you, you would respond. Just the way you talk about him and llok at his IG accounts. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
            I knew he was gone at Thanksgiving becasue remember I looked down the block and say the wife’s car in the drive way meaning he was gone doing military stuff.. I do not know when he came back as I did not look again. His place of business closes between xmas and NYE and they open again 1/2 every year. He takes PTO the other days not covered by the business being closed. So hen I was told he was gone, she meant not on the train. I do not know if he was gone gone……or hiding at home.
            I also told you that I expected a hoover when he came back fro the military stuff. Since it coincided with the holiday stuff he would not ahve been back until 1/2/20 and that is when I got a Unknown Caller at my office….right on time. Just like a routine. Maybe that is why my ET exploded.
            The on;ly people we had in common were the people on the train.
            I have been talking to CIF and hse asked me to tell you HNY!!!!
            Listening to MJ…..Narc or not I love his music. Anything blues I love…or old hard rock…or motown….or country….LOL. Any thing but opera…..gag me!!!!

          35. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            I am not holier than thou! Of course I would want to respond but I vowed to come here first so that you all could stop me! I don’t believe there is any chance of a direct hoover anyway. The struggle is all with myself. I could block his email but it would go to spam, where I would see it, he can make umpteen fake FB profiles, etc. I think I decided that since it wasn’t possible to block him then I would learn to live with the online creeping (which he refused to admit was stalking). I do not look at LI ‘views’ anymore or at his IG (if he even still has it) or google him (I don’t know where he works). Not much else I can do except not look at IPPS’s friends on sm. Baby steps!

            I am glad W was able to be supportive during your cancer scare. MRN could be too (operative word is ‘could’) but he did not do emotions either so I never dumped anything serious on him. The hot/cold behavior was also a complete deal breaker. I could not see it clearly and also realize it wasn’t anything I had done until I had been six months NC. And it was only during the NISS period after this that I tried to tell him what he was. It wasn’t during the FR. I understand how you could be feeling serene right now but maybe you haven’t given yourself enough of a chance. Why not get your ET under control before you break NC? W is not going anywhere. There is no rush. Do you really want to risk being broken again?

            Me too on the music, except for country. Not big into that, with few exceptions.

            Do you think our clogged ears are a metaphor for something? 🙂 Smooches and HNY to CIF too!

          36. Kim e says:

            I hope i did not insult you. That was not my intent. I was just curious.
            W did not show any hot or cold because I was still in the GP when I had not only the audacity to tell him he did not need to lie to me…I was isulting his intergity……LOL. But then when the corrective devauluation was given I did not respond. I was devalued, disengaged from and deleted. 58 days later the hoovers started. This is also the time I found HG.
            Can you explain to me why I feel serene now as I am not sure. Is it my ET not fighting so hard? I do not have that empty feeling inside.
            Not sure I healed enough to not still be broken. Have to be ready to go NC, just like an other addiction, have to be ready and willing to do it. This NC was the longest for me so far. Even though everything was blocked, I never really wanted it to end. I could talk a good game when my LT was higher but deep down where only I now the truth, I did not want it to end.
            Thanks for being here now and for telling me you will be here when I fall again.
            Clogged ears are very painful and hurt…other than that, I see nothing wrong with them.
            Gonna be cold here tomorrow…24 for the high. Next day warmer, 40’s with the damn 50 MPH winds again. I hate wind. Always have. I have to cross Wacker Drive in downtown Chicago to get to my office. Where I cross lower Wacker and upper Wacker meet and it is a wind tunnel. I dont even bother with an umbrella in the rain as the winds eat them alive.
            Is your son still visiting? How old is he? My oldest wants me to retire to Florida so he can visit. HA……..that means he would throw his suitcase on the bed and run out the door.
            Hope you are feeling better.
            I will pass it on to CIF

          37. SMH says:

            Kim e, I am not insulted at all. Again, I went through everything that you are going through for years. Went NC several times (a few months here and there) before I managed it for what I hope is for good.

            I think you are feeling calm because you got a hit and calmed your ET through your own actions but I also think it will wear off whether he contacts you or not. If he does, you might feel good until it all goes downhill again :(. If he doesn’t, your ET will also rise :(. It seems to me that you are handing control over to him. Don’t you think it is better to be NC and keep control for yourself? MRN never disengaged yet I still felt he had all of the control until I had done that six months NC and lowered my ET. Am I control freak too? Maybe!

            Chicago ain’t called the Windy City for nothing, right? I remember those brutal winters well. Don’t fall!!

            My son left two days ago. He is 26 and a good kid (except that he does not pick up his messes). Thankfully, he is temperamentally more like his father than like me! FL, well, do YOU want to retire to FL? Does your son have friends there?

            A friend’s mother gave me echinacea last night and my ear unclogged almost immediately. But it is reclogged this morning. Off to the health food store I go! Smooches back!

          38. Kim e says:

            I am hiding in a suite for my lunch looking for some peace and quiet for my lunch. And of course I get a couple of big mouths outside the suite. 👿👿
            I am glad you have been where I am several times so you understand. Someone might say what is the issue if they had not been there even if they are on the site
            My ET is level today. I agree that if I do hear from him it could turn sucky again. And if I don’t then my bitch side will come out again and I will block. I feel better in knowing that each time I have blocked it has been longer.
            One day it was so windy here that on the news they showed a 90 pound old lady trying to get from her building to a cab at the curb. 2 full grown men literally had to help her as the wind was blowing her backwards. It has moved me too and I am no where near 90 pounds
            I have never really thought about where I want to retire to. But not sure Florida would be on the short list. Maybe NC….
            As far as I know my son does not know anyone in FL or he would be visiting there all the time
            Did you find something for your ear? Is it painful or just bothersome?
            Weights tonight. Gonna be hell as I have not lifted in a long time…….

          39. SMH says:

            Kim e, You must be burning that lunch off right about now. I’ve been a complete slug – have not been to the gym in at least two weeks. Did not get anything for my ear – went out and it was like a squall – it’s also wind-tunnelish here. Went to the grocery store and then got a pedicure because I couldn’t stand thinking about my ugly feet anymore, even if it is winter. I think I just need to get over this cold before I get more ambitious.

            Glad you ET is more level and you are prepared, though we know that nothing can really prepare us. I once went 8 months without seeing MRN. We were in touch but I was away for five of those months, then we parted over email, then a few months NC. When we saw each other again it was (of course) as if no time had passed but as soon as he left, my anxiety levels shot through the roof and I escaped again. But then there I was, 3 weeks later, back with him. That is all simplifying this period, which included probably the worst devaluation, triangulation, dumping IPPS on me and then hoovering me on a dating site, and so on and so forth. I do not long for those days at all. Just a reminder!!!

            Moving on to your next post 🙂 smooches!

          40. Kim e says:

            SMH Yous tated
            “That is all simplifying this period, which included probably the worst devaluation, triangulation, dumping IPPS on me….” what does that mean?

          41. SMH says:

            Kim e, You really want to know? It’s a long story but here it is, in all of its sordidness –

            A few months after we met, I left for the US. MRN tried to see me a few times and in Oct told me he’d be there in Dec (the ONLY time he has ever planned). Over the next two months he bound me very tightly to him and asked repeatedly to see me. I said I would, though I was nervous and somewhat ambivalent. The day arrived. He contacted me first thing but then 2 hours before we were to meet said he was unsure because of a work thing. I knew he was lying but I waited a few hours and then asked him what was happening. He didn’t answer and I didn’t email again. Two days later he sent me a weird, strained apology. I didn’t answer and went silent.

            A month later, two hours after I landed in London, he emailed – ‘where are you’? Another lie – he had my travel details. I responded and only then – 8 months into our ‘relationship’ – did he tell me that his ‘ex’s (IPPS) wanted to ‘reconcile’ (um, not divorced). He also told me that right before IPPS told him this, he met someone with whom he was having an ’emotional relationship.’ Let’s call her CIPSS. No sex with either but ‘lots of drama and tears.’ (I understand now, but I didn’t then.)

            Me: ‘which one should I be worried about?’ Him: ‘which are you worried about?’ Me: ‘neither one – I don’t compete with other women.’ Him: ‘what do you mean?’ !! Me: ‘I mean I don’t compete with other women.’ I knew he was fantasizing about CIPSS and simply said that I wouldn’t interfere with IPPS, gave him some negative fuel and left the conversation.

            Three weeks later, he contacted me on a dating site!! His profile said he was ‘looking for someone to share my life with.’ I told him he was acting psycho – after all, he had just told me he was infatuated with someone else and reconciling with IPPS, right? He also had other ways to get in touch with me. I took screenshots and left.

            Two months of NC and then the affair part, which I call Act II (Act I was the first few months and Act III was my final escape and the NISS period). He told me he was talking to CIPSS on the phone when he stood me up. By then of course she was out of the picture because, as I said, narcs are fantasists. She was 25 years younger and wanted kids. He did not want more kids. ‘It would have been over in a year,’ he said. He must have done a number on her too but she was smart and backed away.

            He never mentioned CIPSS again except to tell me her ‘exotic’ heritage (she was a banker, however, so not that interesting – I referred to her as ‘your exotic banker’). But I one upped him because I’d been involved with someone of the same heritage. He asked me what he did. Theoretical physicist. I got the side eye. Yup, someone smarter than you actually treated me very well.

            So there you have it. Devaluation and triangulation with two other women. Was it painful? Very much so but I partly blamed myself because I was away a great deal of the time and had not even told him I was leaving until more than a month into Act I. And when we were together, things were good. Yet I also wanted to kick him in the balls so I continued to gather info and evidence, and wrote a letter to IPPS (which I never sent but which I did tell him about). The last thing I ever said to him — after I made him delete all of our emails — was that I was sorry to end things the way I did but that I couldn’t forgive him for lying to me.

            A tragicomedy. I do ‘cry’ about it (not really – I’ve never cried over MRN except once out of frustration during the NISS period) but l can laugh about it too. I’ve wanted to write a short story but I’m afraid it wouldn’t make a very good one because I could never capture the dynamic and no one would believe it anyway.


          42. Kim e says:

            IF W had started talking about others, besides IPPS, I would have thrown up. Cant say I would have left cuz…well that is an obvious lie…HAHA

          43. SMH says:

            Kim e, What about the Las Vegas thing? Didn’t you leave? I did leave. But two months later he talked me back. That is why NC is so important!!

          44. Kim e says:

            Remind me about Vegas after my ET is gone. Still painful

          45. SMH says:

            Kim e, OK. I hope the pain goes away soon. It was also painful for me to write out the stuff about the period of devaluation and triangulation – but it passed and it will for you too. It’s about their neediness and fragile egos, not about us. Smooches.

          46. SMH says:

            Kim e, I just had the weirdest experience, which immediately reminded me of something you said. I fell deeply asleep on the sofa, woke about an hour later and stumbled to bed but then felt restless. Part of my brain decided that I could not fall back asleep because I was not thinking about MRN (I wasn’t), so I let good thoughts in, fell asleep easily and woke about 2 hours later. I always felt MRN was my security blanket. Thinking about him is comforting and like knocking myself out with a drug. I have no idea how something purely mental can have such a physical impact but it was like what you said about being addicted to the ET itself. I was clearly making ET happen by thinking about MRN so that I could fall asleep. It isn’t MRN at all. It is the ET associated with him. Going back to sleep now – let’s see if I still need my ET to do it.

          47. Kim e says:

            If I said it, (I don’t remember which long winded story you are referring to) it must be true.
            ET never dies never completely. As a very wise man said we just learn to control it. Hope the rest of your rest was restful.
            Our brains work in very strange ways. I have been dreaming about kissing a married man who while kissing me has a talk bubble over his head that is telling him he shouldn’t be doing that, Tampons were another subject of my minds eye and last night was a circus where we were performing on silks hanging from the air. No drugs and no alcohol involved before bed.
            And I feel loneliness and boredom sneaking in….and we both know what that can lead to.

          48. SMH says:

            Kim e, Today I am fine. Must be from reading too much on narcsite!

          49. Kim e says:

            SMH. I have decided ET is a MRN. I woke up real early with my LT saying you mean nothing to him. He was having sex with you when he was with the new CIPSS. Time to move on
            Then just like a MRN feeling left out and ignored ET came rushing in with picture flashbacks. Just unblock him and talk to him. It won’t hurt.
            Then LT and ET fought for my brain. I said shut up and went back to sleep
            Gotta do it this time. This back and forth is a killer

          50. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes, the back and forth is hard and that is a good analogy. Just like Ns disrupt your tranquility and knock you off your path, so does ET. It makes sense because they cause us emotional turmoil, so in many ways the ET roller coaster is just a continuation of what they do anyway. W obviously did not care about the new CIPSS either, or about IPPS for that matter. It is not you. They do not care about anyone.

          51. Kim e says:

            Right now the only thing going back and forth is me with NC. And I have unblocked for the time being.
            ….I have a headache.
            Sorry to disappoint but I have to go with my gut. I am not contacting him just have to get in the right frame of mind again to go NC.
            Get it?

          52. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes I get it. But I think the blocking/unblocking is compulsive behavior meant to moderate your ET rather than having anything to do with W per se. Somehow you have connected the two things – it’s like compulsively driving by his house. Been there and not worried as I know you will get past it.

          53. Kim e says:

            SMH, I agree that it is being controlled by my ET. Thanks for your support and belief that I will get past this.
            Pass the joint and bottle……………….

          54. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e
            Google: Doctor Carol Foster vertigo
            Do the exercise in the video. You may have to do it more than once, and do it on the bed or floor in case you fall over. Worked for me.
            You’re spinning already between ET and LT – you don’t need this on top.

          55. Kim e says:

            SMH. remember how I was going to ignore all those bs calls I was getting from numbers that go nowhere? Well W was gone for about 5 weeks ( I was told this…I did not inquire) and now that he is back those calls have started again. I just find it very coincidental

          56. SMH says:

            Kim e, speaking of cyber sleuthing – I briefly poked around FB yesterday and noticed that one of IPPS’s friends – who always commented on her IG, was one of MRN’s few followers, kids friends, same social circle etc — has divorced and changed her name back. She once commented on MRN’s IG ‘still waters run deep’ as he and IPPS ‘reconciled.’ He had everyone fooled.

          57. Kim e says:

            SMH. Do you think this friend will now become a target of MMRN?

          58. SMH says:

            Kim e, I don’t think so but what do I know? Maybe she already was!

          59. SMH says:

            Kim e, Also, tell me about your Christmas. Was it nice? I have been away for a few days post-Xmas and have house guests, socializing enough and all that, but not enjoying it as much as I should be. I don’t feel depressed. Just kind of blah like a hangover – too many cookies?? I think at one point I thought there might be a connection between too much sugar and the narc addiction!

          60. Kim e says:

            SMH……..It was the first day I did not cough in 8 days. Skyped with oldest and wife. Talked to youngest. Texts with friends.
            New Years eve I am spending the night at a girlfriends. Next day working out.
            I worked out Thursday night for the first time in 2 weeks since I got sick. I did leg workout first since August and yesterday and today my ass and thighs are killing me. Pain like I have not had for a year. All my workout routine lately has been arms and I am paying for it now. All TRX workout…..I need to start doing this at least once a week.
            I have gained weight back and I can feel it. Still not 100% well. I can still feel it in my breathing as I walk up stairs.
            Sugar addition…..another of my addictions!!! I need to get off it also.
            I still feel dead inside most days. I put on a great outer face but the tears are always just right there. I hate it………..
            OMG…this took a dark turn. Sorry. Did not mean to have that happen.
            Who were your house guests? Did you see mom for the holiday? Kids?

  15. Violetta says:

    This post should rack up more comments than the Post-from-Purgatory. It would show we’re getting our priorities in order.

    1. Lorelei says:

      Funny Violetta!

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Absolutely true. Dick pics vs. just dicks.

    3. SMH says:

      lol Violetta. You’re on a roll!

  16. Hope says:

    Dick pics are always unsolicited. Women don’t need to see your dick to be aroused. Ever. Feeling it is enough. Lol. Orgasm is 99% mental and only 1% physical. I get dick pics usually when I first exchange numbers with I guy I see potential in. This shocking image tells me that he is not looking to be a boyfriend and only wants sex with me. The message the dic pic send is what disgusts me more than the dick itself. I agree with Mercy. It is a passive-aggressive move. When I am already intimate I don’t ask for dick pics. That doesn’t arouse me. I ask for face pics. Upper body pics. Full body nudes are ok. But zero in on just your dick? Really does nothing for me.

    My pics, on the other hand, are usually unsolicited as well. The difference is intent. I send pics after I have already been intimate with a guy and I want to retain his interest. I want to remain relevant. I send the pics when I feel I want his attention. Sometimes, I have no intention of allowing him immediate access. Other times, I send pics when I feel I want his presence. When I want him to come over right away. When I feel horny. Sometimes, most times, guys are unreliable. So if I am horny, I will send to the guy I want most first. He is who I think about as I am taking the pictures. I do get aroused taking pictures of myself and imagining this guy getting aroused by me. And if he is not responsive, I may even send the same pic to another guy I am slightly less interested in or I am not as familiar with but has great potential. I don’t get sexy often, and taking pictures is work, so I usually want consumation if I go through the effort. When guys ask me for pics it evokes a similiar response to when they send their dick pics early on unsolicited. They are telling me they just want a sexual relationship. It is a turn off. I only comply if we already have been intimate prior to. This makes me feel like he will think about me and feel more connected to me if he has pics of me saved on his phone or if he uses a picture of me to jack off to. Since I am already into him if I decided to have sex with him, sending pics is my attempt to correct any imbalance of interest levels.

    Off topic, I am curious how music affects narcissists? I feel so strongly when I hear a song I relate to that it brings tears to my eyes. Before I knew what narcississm was, or that the guys I was involved with were narcissists, I felt so connected to the song Christina Perri – Jar of Hearts. I think it is so relevant. My ex would save little peices of each woman who loved him. Notes, gifts, pictures. He reveled in their tears and it was like his collection of hearts, as he stole parts of all of theirs, never to love the same again after him. Women, what songs are theraputic for you to release your feelings? What songs speak to you and your experiences in entanglements with narcissists? It seems music is perfect for these situatuions because of how strong the emotional frustration is and how isolated and confusing it all is.

    1. Hope says:

      Christina Perri- Jar of Hearts (Official)


      The images are as powerful as the lyrics. I love the last scene where instead of kissing him, she takes her soul back, and he collapses.

      Christina Perri- Jar of Hearts Lyrics:

      I know I can’t take one more step towards you
      ‘Cause all that’s waiting is regret
      Don’t you know I’m not your ghost anymore
      You lost the love I loved the most

      I learned to live half alive
      And now you want me one more time

      And who do you think you are?
      Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
      Collecting your jar of hearts
      And tearing love apart
      You’re gonna catch a cold
      From the ice inside your soul
      So don’t come back for me
      Who do you think you are?

      I hear you’re asking all around
      If I am anywhere to be found
      But I have grown too strong
      To ever fall back in your arms

      And I’ve learned to live half alive
      And now you want me one more time

      And who do you think you are?
      Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
      Collecting your jar of hearts
      And tearing love apart
      You’re gonna catch a cold
      From the ice inside your soul
      So don’t come back for me
      Who do you think you are?

      And it took so long just to feel alright
      Remember how to put back the light in my eyes
      I wish I had missed the first time that we kissed
      ‘Cause you broke all your promises
      And now you’re back
      You don’t get to get me back

      And who do you think you are?
      Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
      Collecting your jar of hearts
      And tearing love apart
      You’re gonna catch a cold
      From the ice inside your soul
      So don’t come back for me
      Don’t come back at all

      And who do you think you are?
      Runnin’ ’round leaving scars
      Collecting your jar of hearts
      Tearing love apart
      You’re gonna catch a cold
      From the ice inside your soul
      Don’t come back for me
      Don’t come back at all
      Who do you think you are?

  17. Leolita says:

    Is this common in all schools? The Forcing us to send pics back, is all about control? Making us break our boundaries

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The need to cause you to send nude pictures to us is the provision of fuel, which evidences control and can be used by all schools of narcissist. It does not mean that it always will be because there are other methods of gaining fuel and asserting control available, not just through “send nudes” demands.

      1. MB says:

        Before I found HGs work, I was befuddled by the asking for so many pics. I said, nothing has changed, why don’t you just look at the oodles I’ve sent already? Many were the same or very similar. How many different shots can you really take of yourself?!? When I found HG, I learned it really had nothing at all to do with the pictures themselves and had everything to do with control.

        1. NotMe! says:

          That makes a lot sense to me, I often sent photos, not nudes and he would pick up on details in the background and mention them later as if he enjoyed having this extra information (had been given more than I meant to, sort of thing) bit creepy in retrospect. I sent photo of a glass of wine on the hearth at the beginning of one conversation and he noticed that he could see my legs reflected in the glass of a lantern by the fire. Makes my foot itch to think of it now.

          1. MB says:

            Notme, I cropped out EVERYTHING I didn’t want him to see. I looked them over VERY well before I sent them, often cropping more. Many didn’t make the cut and were never sent. No snapshots and no questions.

          2. NotMe! says:

            Did you and the MRN meet in person MB?

          3. MB says:

            Yes Notme, we did meet in person as colleagues. The spell was cast the moment I saw him. I was immediately smitten. It didn’t become intimate until right before he moved out of the country. The real steamy part wasn’t until he hoovered me two years later. We haven’t seen each other since the day before he moved away. I’ve been no contact since February. I miss the sprinkles, but not the bullshit.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Sprinkles are manipulations MB, just like the bullshit.

          5. MB says:

            I know they are, but they are delicious manipulations. Much tastier without the side of bullshit which is why I’m NC.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Let’s describe what they really are rather than euphemising descriptions- that’s ET.

          7. MB says:

            Yes Sir. I will behave.

            They are Crumbs of Comfort. Insidious manipulations to keep the Lonely Long Distance IPSS hanging on to the hope of something that is never going happen by a Future Faking Narcissist. They are made from the Jam of Tomorrow.

          8. NarcAngel says:

            Haha. You pulled it out when it counted!

          9. MB says:

            NA, Being chastised by The Boss will do that to a pupil! I had to let him know I really had been paying attention before I was sent to The Dungeon for insubordination.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            No dungeon for you. Yet!

          11. MB says:

            HG, In all seriousness, as a long time participant of the blog, I should be cognizant of the fact that my comments may carry more weight with newer readers. (Not that they should!) Being flippant about serious manipulations is behavior unbecoming of a Tudorite of my tenure. I should also know better in light of the recent conflict about extraneous noise. I’ll keep behaving.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            You did not misbehave. You exhibited ET and I fired some logic your way, MB.

          13. MB says:

            Thank you HG. Your logic is is one of the reasons I love you!

          14. HG Tudor says:

            One should always love logic.

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Uh-oh… she didn’t say she loved ***logic…

          16. MB says:

            Deflection SP. Denied! Haha

          17. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yeah I saw that!

          18. NotMe! says:

            It does sound like we had a similar situation MB, except my hoover happened after 25 years, Doh!

          19. Desirée says:

            “They’re made from the jam of tomorrow”
            Colourful! You don’t mind if I pinch that, do you? I’ve never heard that before.

          20. HG Tudor says:

            You had best ask Lewis Carrol, Desiree, although I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for an answer!

          21. MB says:

            Desireé, I got jam tomorrow from HGs work. You’ve never heard of pie in the sky? That’s a good one. Just make sure they aren’t cow pies! 💩😉

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Alice in Wonderland. HG uses the reference in “Contrariwise.”

          23. Desirée says:

            Thank you HG, I found it now. As so very often, the original is much more fun than the translation I was familiar with.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            Such are the joys of being multi-lingual Desiree.

          25. Desirée says:

            Just found an even better one: Pie in the sky! Haha! English language has an abundance of colorful idioms.

          26. Desirée says:

            Didn’t know about Pies in Skies MB, but I know a cow pie in the sky is what a Middle Midranger’s threats are. Sometimes I find little tidbits of english language and mount them in my butterfly collection frame! When I learned a comment section can also be a “thread”, I was entertained because we use the term “loosing the thread” to mean “loosing one’s train of thoughts”. However, the fact that jam is also traffic jam has not yet stopped conjuring confusing mental imagery.

        2. SMH says:

          MB, That is very insightful (thanks, HG). Very useful to know.

  18. Liza says:

    he never did anything like that, and he never asked for me to do it.
    in that respect, he always behaved in a verry respectfull and considerate manner, never presured me or forced me to anything, of course i never did it myself.

  19. Dolores Haze says:

    Not a dick pic story, but a sexting one: when I was much younger and engaged in sexting before FB, IG, Snap etc, I used to copy-paste a template sexual fantasy I invented for one guy and send it to several guys I’ve been playing with (including the ex-Narc in question). Nobody suspected anything. But when my Narc used to send me several dick pics in one night wearing different underwear… c’mon, I’m not that stupid, these were not all tailored for me.

  20. Witch says:

    I remember I did send an unsolicited nude to a lesbian living in Florida who I used to speak with online. It was unsolicited but I knew she wouldn’t mind (I’m not that creepy.) I believe she was a narc though..
    Thank good I’m in a committed relationship now so that my inner hoe is locked away because she’ll get me into a lot trouble!

  21. Dolores Haze says:

    Seriously though, lads and ladies, what is it with Narcs and their dick pics?! Think Anthony Weiner. My ex-Narc is very into the same thing, no matter how much I wanted to believe it was just me he was doing his photo and video sessions for. I’d never bust him, but all these other women he’d been dick-picking… he doesn’t know them, never met them, most of them are practically kids, single, so nothing for them to lose… He, on the other hand, is married and holds a position so high that if those pictures / conversations are leaked, you’d hear about it on CNN for several months in a row. Why would he risk it all, HG? Why would he piss me off knowing I have all his pics and conversations?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The necessity is for control in the moment, not control down the line. Hence certain narcissists, make excellent decisions for asserting control in that moment, poor decisions for collateral impact but the narcissism is not concerned with that.

  22. njfilly says:

    In response to the poll, I only just purchased my first iphone in 2017 and at that time began receiving unsolicited dick pics through facebook messenger. I would never ask for one.

    At first I was disgusted and blocked the senders immediately. Then I was amused by it. Then I began to get desensitized to it and would just ignore them. Sometimes I would ask the men why they did it and if it ever worked in achieving whatever was their goal. They said sometimes they would get pictures in return or sex out of it. I can’t actually imagine it working. It would never work on me.

    No photos of my genitalia exist and never will. I did take some topless photos for my narcissist boyfriend after I purchased my first iphone in 2017 and it was also the time I took my very first selfie. Very few pictures of me actually exist and I was almost completely un-photographed from 2000 – 2016.

  23. Dolores Haze says:

    Oh I love this poll, what a treat for a Friday night 🍆🍌! Never dated online, so no unsolicited photo exchanges. Used to keep a massive collection of the Narc’s dick pics & videos received over the years (his 🍆 is a beauty, won’t deny this) until last month when HG’s wisdom influenced me to purge everything.

  24. santaann1964 says:

    From my experience, I’ve send erotic pictures of myself. Later to find out he would send his dick picture to prostitutes. And receive them as well. For some reason, he kept his image of me somewhat of angelic. So from me they were dirty. Not with our first relationship ( phones were not as good) he always wanted to keep that side away from me. But that didn’t work. I set him up with a shemale friend of mine on the phone texting and soliciting for money ($500) for exchange for sex. The next day I told him it was me. Oh boy I thought he was going to literally kill me. But I exposed him. Haha! Danger zone. But yet he still comes back…. omg 😱 $500 just for dick fuel. What a dick!

    1. Esther says:

      Santaann, Wow, crazy experience. $500 is way too much money for that type of stuff though. That’s my opinion. It sounds like he was very important to you that you were willing to do that. That amount of money spent here will provide you with plenty of great info that will actually be worth your money. save money live better- use HG services lol

      1. santaann1964 says:

        I didn’t spend the money, he was going to pay $500, he thought the shemale was a escort. He invited her over and got into explicit details on what they were going to do. Never expected this but as we know anything is possible

      2. santaann1964 says:

        I didn’t spend $500. My friend said I could use the picture and get him with his fetish. He was willing to pay $500 for an hour of sex with the prostitute. The point is I found him out. That was the very dangerous part. But I can play games too! But yes he was very important to me until my favorite Mr.H came along with his knowledge.

        1. Esther says:

          oh ok, i guess i misunderstood you 🙂
          what a jerk!! i am sorry about your experience. i understand..I am glad you are ok now and are gradually recovering from the abuse. thats great!

  25. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I will just interrupt my beach break to inform everyone that I’m almost ready for the grand opening of my Cockenheim museum. Over 20 unique artistic photographs that show the extreme versatility of a narcissistic cock from different angles. All the originals will be available in breathtaking one-size-fits-all printings at our museum shop as well as 3-D replicas for the delight of our visitors.

    1. njfilly says:

      Very funny.

      I’m actually quite amazed at the diversity in looks, shape and size that I guess I never realized before (other than size) as I never had them all together to visually compare. (although I did my own internal comparison as they were being used).

      What cracks me up is men who actually have ugly dicks (not talking about size) yet send photos of them anyway. Like, do you really not know that your dick is ugly by comparison to the others? Yikes!

      My question to Mr. HG Tudor, have you ever sent a dick pic yourself? (I apologize if this has already been asked and answered).

      1. HG Tudor says:


        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          You haven’t? Please, don’t tempt me…

          1. Violetta says:

            Somehow I can’t imagine HG showing up on “Bye Felipe,” responding to someone rejecting or even ignoring his parts (usually censored by an eggplant when reposted) with a stream of semi-literate abuse, a la “stupid bich bet your fat.”

            I shall never accuse our Mr. Tudor of possessing morals, but I think he’s occasionally restrained by class-consciousness.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            “Bye Felipe”???? Hahaha

        2. njfilly says:

          I’m very glad to hear that!

        3. santaann1964 says:


        4. MB says:

          This is an instance where I’d prefer the 1000 words over the pic. What a way with words HG has!

      2. MB says:

        Njfilly, HG has said in the past that only Epsilon Semi Morons send dick pics. That certainly doesn’t describe him.

        I never received one either, not a single reciprocation. However, I specifically said I did not want one. (I like unwrapping surprises. 😉)

        In addition, it wasn’t necessary to his control to send any. That was the REAL reason I never received one.

        1. NotMe! says:

          No, I’ve never received one either, solicited or otherwise. Let’s face it, they’re not that attractive in 2D. More of a tactile object than a visual one?

          1. MB says:

            I agree NotMe! Re: tactile object. Not really a thing of beauty. Although I’m in the unusual position of only ever experiencing one. For a DE, I sure haven’t gotten around much!

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’ll share with you, MB! BBF!!

          3. MB says:

            Thanks SP. I’m good though. Cootie-free is the way to be!

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:


          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oops I typed it wrong! Let’s make up a new acronym then: Best Bitchy Friends!

          6. njfilly says:

            Although I have received them, (always unsolicited) I agree with you. Very funny! Some are actually attractive, though by default to the unattractive ones!

        2. njfilly says:

          Hi MB,

          Thanks for responding. Yes, I agree with Mr. HG Tudor. It is moronic. A very lazy, neanderthalic way of “communicating”. That definitely does not describe him. I’m very happy to hear he doesn’t participate in that. I would have been surprised if he did.

          I did get a couple from my narcissist boyfriend. I didn’t understand why. Honestly, I don’t want to see it. What’s the point? (Unless it was unusually large-which it was not- or unusual in some way that you could tell by looking at it!)

          You certainly didn’t miss out on anything by not having received one. I like and agree with your funny statement about unwrapping surprises.

          Do you know; in what way would it be a form of control for him to have sent you a dick pic?

          1. MB says:

            Njfilly, I was a very compliant appliance. I did what he wanted with very little effort on his part. I can see that now that I understand the narcissistic dynamic. It wasn’t necessary for him to send me pictures, come visit me, tell me he loved me, etc. I pleased him for crumbs. I was a fool.

          2. SMH says:

            MB, You were not a fool or we all were fools. I had the same problem – not with pictures because I never sent any explicit ones – but with sexting because I used my real email and he used his fake one. That is why I was so obsessive post-escape about getting him to come over and delete all of our emails in front of me. I did not want him to have that thought fuel and power or be able to blackmail me/buy my silence. I know exactly how you feel. I am glad that HG has confirmed he will not use the pictures. If I’d asked HG specifically about this I am happy to know he would probably have confirmed that MRN would not have used our correspondence for anything either. And for all I really know he still has it somewhere – I mean maybe he downloaded it all and saved it to a hard drive. Who knows!

          3. MB says:

            SMH, of course there are no guarantees, but nobody knows narcs like HG. He’s as close to a guarantee as one can get.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I am the guarantee.

          5. MB says:

            Of course you are! I feel confident having the HG Stamp of Approval.

          6. SMH says:

            You are, HG. How does it feel to have so many lives in your hands? (rhetorical Q)

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Edifying, SMH, edifying.

          8. njfilly says:

            Dear MB;

            I see. Thank you for your reply. So, if I understand, he didn’t have to reciprocate any action.

            Of course I don’t know what happened in your particular circumstance but I wish you would not call yourself a fool. You didn’t know what you were dealing with. Maybe you acted foolishly, as many of us did, but you are not a fool. You are here learning, about what you just experienced and to prevent it from happening again. Those are not the actions of a fool.

            I think I need to mentally review my own situation. I’m not actually sure how compliant I was. I like things to be fair. A 50/50 give and take and I always keep that in mind. But then, there is a contradictory part of me that wants to be controlled and I didn’t have a problem with my narcissist having some control over me. It was actually the part of my relationship with him that I liked. I’m not sure why.

            It will be difficult trying to remember though, as I have tried to forget it and forgetting comes very easily to me.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            Control is only an issue if it’s one-sided or non-consensual.

          10. njfilly says:

            Yes I agree.

          11. NotMe! says:

            NA ‘Control is only an issue if it’s one-sided or non-consensual.’ Can you explain what do you mean please?

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Meaning you can relinquish some or all control for an agreed to period of time to someone else (sex, finances, etc), and there is nothing wrong with that if you both consent to it and abide by any rules established. The problem is when control is assumed, enforced, or the parameters that were established are ignored by one (or more) of the parties involved.

          13. njfilly says:

            I don’t like being controlled by the withholding of sex either.

          14. NotMe! says:

            I thought that is what you meant. Like njfilly, I enjoyed some of the giving up of control to the Narc. And I’m coming to the idea that this is why I was hooked.
            My ex husband left everything to me, so when Narc assumed control of things (like booking a trip for instance) I was pleased and happy to let him have control. In regards to sex, I was ok giving up control too. Him controlling conversations I tolerated quite well, I’m easy going in general. Feeling like I had no say in when we saw each other or communicated when we weren’t together, I couldn’t cope with ever and this caused my multiple corrective devaluations I think. Reading your comment, kinda clarified that for me, thank you x

    2. cogra002 says:

      😆 So funny

  26. Freya says:

    He begged me for permission to send one and I finally relented. He was constantly begging me for pics and then giving me so much positive reinforcement for sending them and then confessing he had showed them to his best friend! I’m not really ashamed of my body but it was all just a little odd. And it made me feel pressured. Then later I would catch him taking nude photos of me while I slept. He was photo obsessed even with clothes on. It made me a little crazy. What is this about??

    1. HG Tudor says:


  27. Violetta says:

    I suspect a lot of woman are more verbal or auditory than visual (which is why a lot of readers here regularly listen to “Hush,” which I have confined myself to reading). They want a good-looking face and well-formed body on a man, but they’re not all that particular about how his courgette looks, as long as it doesn’t have antennae or eyeballs growing out of it.

    Since men tend to be primarily visual, the ones sending courgette pics assume women are the same. They haven’t bothered to figure us out, so I’m guessing most of the ones who do that are pretty low-functioning.

    I haven’t received pics, but I was on a listserv for a group where some guy started IM-ing me off-list with obnoxious suggestions. I found out later he was doing it to all the women in the group, even ones who were known to be in relationships. I found out even later than that that he had ripped off a number of people in more than one place he’d lived. He wasn’t charming at all, so I don’t know if his routine ever worked.

  28. Chihuahuamum says:

    I forgot to answer that i have sent photos of myself i wont lie. Not many but i did go thru a phase where i had played along with a few online. Its not something im proud of but it happened. Those were in the more innocent days. Nowadays its foolish to do so bc so many have been blackmailed and that includes videos etc where screenshots can be taken.
    Id watched a documentary where adult men were saving pics of young girls and blackmailed them with them. One girl in canada took her life at a young age i think 11 🙁

  29. NarcAngel says:

    If you get an unsolicited dick pic that you don’t appreciate you can always use the opportunity to comment.

    Cute. What does it look like when it grows? (When it’s obviously erect)
    Im afraid I can’t imagine any benefit to you pleasuring my spleen with that wicked left hook.
    I can recommend a very good cream for those age spots.
    I’m embarrassed to advise you that you erred in sending me a pic that was clearly intended for your mom. (Mom’s the word though).
    Awww…it has it’s own hoodie!
    I hear collagen can help with thickening.

    You get the idea.

    1. Violetta says:

      Worked with an actress who used to tell subway flashers, “If I had one that small, I’d keep it hidden.”

      1. cogra002 says:


    2. cogra002 says:

      😂😂😂. You’re awesome NarcAngel! I’d hang with you in a heartbeat 👍❤️

    3. Sweetest Perfection says:

      NA, that mom comment would be taken literally by my narc, you know…

    4. Mercy says:

      #1 is best! And I’ve seen that left hook.

    5. Kristen Porterfield says:

      Narc Angel,
      Hilarious! That is exactly what I did!! Narcy had a ” friend” of his contact me (the malign hoover) asking to come party with him… that he heard I was good at …. and had great ….that he could …. me better than Narcy ever could… You get the picture. So I asked him to send me a dic pic in order for me to make my decision. He did of course. I promptly sent it to all my friends and had them respond back to his phone. Someone replied “what’s wrong with the balls?” Another said “something is definitely wrong there” Then I stated that “both of my sisters are nurses and they think you should have that checked out by a doctor !!”” HA HA HA

    6. blackunicorn123 says:

      My fave was a casual “No thanks, I roll my own”. 😂

    7. Dolores Haze says:

      I was at a few of those German hot springs resorts where clothes are optional and men and women bathe together (not the kinky stuff, just bathing), saw quite a few dicks so tiny that I wondered “how this guy’s parents knew if it’s a boy or a girl when he was born“ 🤣😂.

      1. NotMe! says:

        😂 Delores! I was introduced to nude beaches by Narc (somatic obviously) one does see some interesting sights!

  30. Chihuahuamum says:

    Ive never had faccid dick pics sent. Id think those would be more uncommon 😆

  31. lisk says:


    *Normal* men need to do more of that.

    Unfortunately, it’s the kind of thing Narcx would do—cook and send food pics as part of his strategy to build/maintain his Nice Guy (“I’m not a jerk like those other men”) facade.

    1. cogra002 says:

      I know, right! I didn’t get Narc vibes, but this guy has known XNarc over 30 yrs. I didn’t mention anything.
      But yes, he seems to know The way to interest a girl like me, hahaha.
      Definitely more guys should be like him.
      He knows my culinary skills are precarious. When we were at the big conference (when the Narc 1st approached me) and I had maybe had a little too much wine, and tried to use my room safe as a microwave 😱
      He said “I see you don’t cook much!” 😂

      1. lisk says:

        Ha ha! That’s adorable, cogra002.

        He does sound sweet. He better be. . . or else!

        1. cogra002 says:

          I’ve known him forever, yet not in this context. If I had a shot w him, 💯% I’d give it a whirl!
          He and found last night that both our proposals for next summer’s big conference, have been accepted, so I’ll see him there.
          The Narc I’ve been struggling with will also be there. The likelihood of a large triangulation on my side is there.

          How do Narcs feel about that HG? For the UMR Narc who still feels he owns me, and a well respected professional he’s known for yrs, and I are together. How does that play out? Tears, drama, fall on floor w heart attack, smear, silent treatment???

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I need more information about the circumstances and parties to provide you with an accurate answer, there are many variables based on the information you might give me and this is best addressed through consultation.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Lisk I got the cook and cock together.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Haha – the cook and cock sounds like this years answer to the Hotpot.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:


        2. Mercy says:

          I think I saw the CookCock in one of my black Friday ads.

          1. Mercy says:

            Comes with free batteries

          2. Dolores Haze says:

            Three ladies at the grocery store are buying cucumbers. 1. “Can I have a long slender one?” 2. “I’d like a thick one with those little thorns”. 3. “Uhmm… I don’t care which one, it’s really for the salad”.

          3. AnneB says:

            So reading some of these comments brings to mind another film “The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover”. Cooking and a penis converge in the revenge of the empath (wife) on the Narcissist (thief). I recall that in this case revenge was literately a dish served warm to hot.

        3. Lorelei says:

          NA—please come back over here.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I’m right here. I’m everywhere – multitasking.
            My balls are huge but I’ve never sent a dick pic. Was that your question?

          2. Lorelei says:

            I’m glad you don’t have such pics NA! I was sent two in my life. Both flagrant narcissists. Surprise?!

      2. lisk says:

        Narcs with Benefits!

      3. cogra002 says:

        If it comes with loyalty too, you got great guys!!

        Wonder if HG has culinary skills.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          He has.

          1. MB says:

            He’s been known to chop vegetables from time to time! Causing quite a stir as I recall!