Why Won’t He Answer My Text Messages? Part Two
Having explained why the various schools of narcissist fails to respond to your text messages when you are the primary source, it also falls to be considered why this is done with three classes of secondary source namely The Intimate Partner Secondary Source, The Dirty Secret Intimate Partner Secondary Source and the Non-Intimate Partner Secondary Source.
The Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“IPSS”)
This person is either somebody who is being seduced by our kind for the purposes of being promoted to become the new primary source at the appropriate time or is someone who has not secured the promotion but is someone we regard as too valuable to discard. Accordingly, the IPSS might be someone who is “on the up” in terms of seduction as we look to ensure they will be a reliable and high-functioning primary source or it might be someone who did not make ‘the cut’ but since we have invested time and effort in them and their fuel (plus other benefits) they are still of use to us. So, what does it mean if we are not responding to your text messages when you are the IPSS?
During Initial Seduction
It is the IPSS who experiences the most intense of seductions. You will have begun as a tertiary source, a stranger who has been targeted for your potential. You are therefore very quickly promoted to a secondary source and since sex is such a weapon of mass seduction, you will have been further promoted to the position of IPSS. As we look to promote you to the primary source, you will experience the love-bombing and the manifestation of our infatuation through the near ceaseless text messaging.
When there is a hiatus in the text messaging this is not a devaluation but is rather done to test you to see how you respond. If you are relaxed about this change, for instance you have grown used to a text always at 8am and then we do not send one, but you do not respond to this failure in any way, we will be disappointed. If however you text us at 8-01 am asking us how we are (your attempt to find out why we have not texted without asking as such) then we will be pleased with your response and in such a circumstance likely to respond immediately again. Any kind of delay in responding or period of silence is done purely to test how quickly you will respond and what you will send in your response to us. This is not devaluation. The delay will only be for a short period of time, a few hours or so, as it is a test and we do not want to risk losing your interest. Accordingly, if you do not respond for a few hours (although this is highly unlikely) we will contact you (if it was a devaluation the silence would continue for far longer). Furthermore, when you do respond, we will reply to you after a handful of your messages in a short time period, again because we do not want to risk losing your interest and we are satisfied that you are responding in the way that we approve of.
During the Golden Period Seduction
If the targeting and the initial seduction proved successful then you will have been promoted from IPSS to primary source and therefore you ought to have regard to the circumstances of this article Why Won’t He Answer My Text Messages? – Part One
If however you have not been promoted to primary source but you have not been discarded, then we have opted to keep you connected to us as an IPSS. You will be aware that you have not been promoted because we will still see the wife or girlfriend (or if none was ever mentioned) you will not see us as often as you once did during the Initial Seduction. You may think that this is a devaluation. It is not. You are now in the Golden Period Seduction for an IPSS. This means we still regard you as ‘good’, we want your fuel, but unlike a IP Primary Source we will not avail ourselves of the fuel as often. This means that the fuel you provide as a IPSS does not go stale, but rather we intermittently return to you. We in effect keep you hanging on, future-faking as to what might happen but we have no intention of promoting you (just yet although circumstances may change further down the line) since we deemed you not to make the grade.
What will be happening now is that we will
a. Continue with the devaluation of the primary source;
b. Continue to engage with you as an IPSS; and
c. We will be engaging with another IPSS in the Initial Seduction Period
Accordingly, when your messages are not being returned in these circumstances again it is not because of a devaluation but it is because we have ‘put you back on the shelf’ and we are engaging with the primary source and/or new IPSS who we are looking to promote. You remain of use to us but this is an intermittent use.
Understand therefore that the silences (and they can be protracted) are not because we have turned against you, but because we are busy elsewhere. You may notice that you do receive some replies but they are short and perfunctory in nature
“Busy. Will call later.”
“Can’t talk. Meeting.”
“Busy but miss you.”
“Tied up but will message later.”
These crumbs of comfort are provided because we do not want to lose you, we enjoy the fuel that is received from you messaging us and because you remain in the Seduction Golden Period we have no need to devalue you, it just is not your turn to have time with us.
You can find yourself held in this position for a very long time. Not good enough to become the primary source but not bad enough to devalue and discard.
The Devaluation
The Devaluation of an IPSS is rare because we like to keep you around as a reliable and occasional fuel provider. We invested time in you and because you function whenever we turn to you (you are delighted to gain some time with us at last) your fuel always appears potent to us, thus we have no need to devalue.
Devaluation would only take place if you began to refuse to see us when we decided it was time to pay you a visit or you no longer provided us with fuel. Once this has happened we consider you to be a malfunctioning IPSS and we will devalue you. This means that we will ignore your text messages, you will not get crumbs of comfort and the period of ignoring you will be extensive until we do decide to respond. The response will be malign in nature. Thus if you are an IPSS you will know that:-
a. Extensive delays to reply to your repeated messages; and
b. When the response finally comes it is malign in nature
means that you are being devalued.
The Discard
In the rare event that you have been discarded as an IPSS then you are immediately painted black and it is as if you do not exist. We do not regard you as even worth bothering with for negative fuel (although of course we will still derive some from your messages but we will not prod you for more) and therefore if you do not get a reply to your text messages begging for a reply and an explanation, it is because we regard you as an irritation, beneath dealing with and in all likelihood you will end up blocked.
The Dirty Secret Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“DSIPSS”)
The DSIPSS is the person who is kept hidden away but is dipped into for excellent fuel with considerable regularity ( see more Dirty Little Secret )
The Initial Seduction Period
This will be intense in a similar way to that described above as concerning the IPSS. There is unlikely to be any delay in replying to text messages because there is no need to test you. Your role has been decided on as DSIPSS and you will never become the primary source. Your function is to be available at a set time or times each week for those secret trysts where the clandestine nature of the connection increases the potency of the fuel since you are likely to be The Other Woman. As we embed you (and do so quickly) into this role we will respond to your messages because we do not want to:-
a. Risk losing you; and
b. You trying to contact other people you may know mutually which then risks exposing our dirty secret
thus there will be no failure to reply.
The Seduction Golden Period
Just like the IPSS you are slotted into a longstanding golden period because you are used intermittently. Whilst kept secret, you will be seen more often than an IPSS who is in the Seduction Golden Period. That IPSS has failed to become the primary source but is kept and strung along for future use. You were never going to be the primary source and you are seen more often because the nature of your fuel is a two hour fuel injection before we disappear back to the primary source.
It is the nature of the DSIPSS that because they know of the primary source, they are less likely to badger us through messages. There will not be any intentional failure to respond to the messages of the DSIPSS and often the reply will explain why we cannot speak or message at length but the content of the message will be complimentary, encouraging and contain future faking, whilst slating the primary source,amounted to improved crumbs of comfort. Indeed there will often be an explanation given to explain when we are next available (the IPSS would not be afforded this)
“Can’t message for long, got to take the witch to her friends so will message you around 8pm, can’t wait to kiss you again.”
“Difficult to text, she is still here. Will message again as soon as I can. Really missing you and want to show you just how much asap.”
“Hi sex machine, stuck at present, will msg after 6pm xxxxxxxxxxx”
Thus if you find that your messages are always answered, your expectations managed and you know there is a primary source involved, you are a DSIPSS who is in the lengthy seduction golden period.
The Devaluation
It is very rare for a DSIPSS to be devalued because of their compliance, acceptance of their role and the delicious turbo boost of fuel which they provide every so often. We do not become bored of the DSIPSS’ fuel and devaluation would only take place if the DSIPSS eventually decides that he or she wants more or tires of their role, in effect working out that they are just a dirty little secret. If there are demands for more time, threats to expose the arrangement or the fuel is diminished then we may apply some more sugar to calm the situation, but if this is unlikely to work then we will turn to threats and devaluation. We will then cut the DSIPSS adrift and make them persona non grata. We will not respond to any of the messages for a long time and once we do the response will be savage, malign and threatening in order to ensure that the DSIPSS stays silent.
The Discard
Just like the IPSS, the discard is rare, but if it does happen, your messages will be ignored because not only are you painted black by us, we wish you would just disappear because as a DSIPSS you have the potential to cause us problems. By not answering we are denying your existence. We are unlikely to block you because we want to keep an eye on what you are doing in case it proves necessary to dole out a malign follow-up hoover in order to keep you in line, but we will monitor your texts but not reply. We are no longer as interested in your fuel, but it is rather the reaction of wishing you would just go away and let us get on with our machinations in peace.
The Non-Intimate Secondary Source (“NISS”)
This will include inner and outer circle friends along with colleagues.
The Initial Seduction
This happens quickly as it does not take too much effort to bind this person to us as friend or colleague as a NISS and the reality is that there is unlikely to ever be an occasion, or indeed time for a failure to respond to the text messages occurring.
The Seduction Golden Period
As explained elsewhere, the NISS enjoys a near permanent golden period because their fuel is only relied on intermittently and thus remains potent. The NISS is also often very loyal and receives bribing benefits from our kind, so the seduction golden period will continue for a long time.
If there is a failure to reply to text messages it is because we are busy about something else. The NISS whilst important to us, is expendable and therefore the messages of a NISS will not be treated with priority. The fuel obtained whilst good, is not the highest and generally, in tandem with our concept of superiority and control, consider that the NISS once bound is not going to become disloyal because we have been slow to respond to text messages. We take the view that they will conclude we are just busy and they will patiently wait for a reply. We have no need to rush and no need to devalue them during this stage. Accordingly, if you are a NISS and your messages are not being responded to, it is because we are busy doing something else and you are not a priority.
The Devaluation
The devaluation of a NISS is very rare, but if it does happen then the failure to respond will be elongated in time, with many messages piling up unanswered before we eventually respond with a scathing put down. There will be no words of comfort, no excuses offered but an unpleasant reply designed to draw fuel from you.
The Discard
The discard of a NISS is also rare but if it does happen, it is as if you are struck from the record, made persona non grata and in all likelihood you will be blocked. We freeze you out and no doubt have already replaced you with someone else. Your messages seeking explanations and reconciliation will be unheeded and indeed in many instances not even yet, such is your inferior status to us.
74 thoughts on “Why Won’t He Answer My Text Messages? Part Two”
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HG, can I just check if I have understood something? If a narcissist periodically messages you (post discard), but then (rarely) responds to your reply, am I correct in presuming this is a control thing, kind of like making sure you always have had the last word, or similar? Is it checking you are (in their view, anyway) safely under their control and then they put you back in the box for another time, so to speak?
Yes, see The 3 Assertions of Control, it is required knowledge, as I keep explaining.
Thanks. I think you answered this question for me on another thread more recently, but thank you for answering here too. I am unable to obtain The 3 Assertions of Control at the moment. Difficult to make purchases anonymously (home situation), so just reading and listening to what I can on here.
Happy to help out and make sure you get this information, JB. It is vital for understanding.
HG, I will email to make the arrangements.
Oh LET, bless you that is so kind of you, thank you so much, but you really don’t have to do that, honestly. There are others in much more need than me; I just mentioned my home situation so HG was aware of the difficulties and didn’t think I was just continually ignoring his recommendations xx
LET, I have just checked my email and I have received this. Thank you so, so much. You are so kind and words can’t express how much this gesture means to me xxxx
LET,
You are lovely 😘
You are welcome, JB, and I understand that you wouldn’t want HG to think you weren’t taking him up on his recommendations. It was only in the thread begun with Fiddleress’s idea that I realized purchase can be difficult for a number of reasons and I was happy to help out. I’m also trying to follow up on my desire to make a regular contribution, so adding to the fund to assist the purchase was something I was also happy to do. I know you will get the benefit of reading the material and I agree with HG it is vital. It has helped me make sense of so many things, so I wish the same for you <3 xox
Thank you, TS, though no doubt you will see from other of my moments here “lovely” does not always come to the forefront 😉 Tough cookies are made by narcissists. I was cookie cut from the start. Thankfully, in many ways, that has worked out in my favour xox
LET, it’s helping me to make sense of things too. I’m running back through conversations in my mind and I can clearly see the pattern each time. It’s fascinating to see how it all fits together. Sadly, it also adds extra anecdotal evidence to the theory that the people I am referring to are definitely narcissists, and has also made me realise that a few extra people in my life have also been narcissists. I am now starting to think every bloke I have been interested in has been one!
I wanted to tell you this: the other day, a friend of mine messaged me, complaining about yet another failed relationship of his, where the woman had turned out to be a nutjob. 5 minutes later I come on here, and there is an article all about the ex and this dynamic. I read it and was stunned at, a) the timing (thanks, HG!) and b) how it fitted together. Suddenly everything went slotting into place and I realised exactly what this guy is, how I fit in to his life (even though we are just friends), etc. To be honest it scared me a bit! Sudden epiphany of knowledge is unnerving sometimes! Xx
You are welcome.
I’m so glad to hear you are benefiting from HGs material, JB x
It definitely is one way of fitting all the puzzle pieces together and I couldn’t have done that without coming here. The fact you’ve been able to apply it immediately to your situation is a bonus and that is a friendship to watch. I think once we know what is happening we are a lot less likely to fall into any of the traps the narcissist lays out for us and that way can ensure our defence. This includes dialling down any emotional thinking.
The sense of being unnerved by what we are learning is a necessary consequence of the understanding we are gaining. It is quite shocking at times to uncover things from the narcissistic perspective because it is so alien to our own. What I love about this place is the fact that our own perspective is allowed to live and breathe here without any type of judgement or condemnation. Which in turns allows for less demonization of the narcissist in the circumstances. Apart from our emotional thinking which gets in my way sometimes!
The upshot is that clarity is provided with an opportunity to vent, but with the ultimate goal of understanding and eventually escape. And every bloke I was ever interested in was definitely a narcissist, so you are not alone on that one 😉 We are narc magnets and learning to repel them now is the name of the game xox
LET, absolutely! Well I have learned so much in the past year, I feel that I stand half a chance of succeeding. I don’t know about repelling them (would that ever happen?), but I think us being able to spot the signs and then avoid them is a good start! Xx
When I was in a “relationship” with my daughters father, he always played games with not answering my text for days, weeks, or months. because he could. Now that I don’t want anything to do with him, he demands that we engage with communication. My judge told me she expects me to thoroughly communicate with him. Last week, we had a minor difference with interpretation over whether our child exchange time was 5pm or 6pm. After it was all said and done, I went home to bed, woke up to an email from him. It was a long ass email, with attached text presenting his “evidence”. The email opened with, ‘It really is insulting to my intelligence that you think I am wrong, so for the record, i will present the fact!!’ he then went on to gaslight a phony presentation with the same text messages that were on my own phone, and could easily look at for reference. I looked up, and saw he cc his bully attorney with this nonsense. Therefore, I was expected to waste 5 minutes of my time to read his silliness, while his attorney probably will get paid $40, and probably more, because she will also privately reply back to him, to console his feeling and ego. All I replied back with was: “Motion is moot” Here in the USA mootness is when someone is trying to litigate an issue that has already been resolved, or can no longer be granted relief. perfectly describes an argument from a narc.
Honestly, I can’t even read your whole back-and-forth with your daughter’s father. It is too painful and ET-escalating. I can only imagine what it is like to actually live it.
Did you try HG’s How to Co-Parent with the Narcissist Prime Package?
My guess is that the package and a consult or two with HG would help you manage this efficiently and would give you a lot of peace.
I do have that package. Great package. I am a survivor who is proactive with moving forward. I have a track record of getting out of bad situations. I apologize if my comments are triggering,
Oh, my gosh. Absolutely no need to apologize, ANM.
It’s not your comments that are raising the ET. It’s your daughter’s fathers narc antics.
I hope you maintain your track record and that this “episode” with him is only a blip on the proverbial screen.
Hg
Great article.
Text them back in a different language.
Lol
I hate this article. I was a DLS and I was compliant. I knew my place and made no waves. EVER! Yet, i was still devalued and discarded. This article makes me feel like I wasn’t even good enough to be the DLS. While I know I need to see this article, I still effing hate it!
P.S. I know its just my ET rearing its ugly head. I just really need to let it out.
Slap it down with a Trait Detector.
The order and organization of your psychosis is really remarkable. Truly high functioning. Your “kind” isn’t a kind, but a sickness. But, you take great pride in this of course (never realizing this is not a compliment or admirable trait, you could never do that). Why are your posts only focused on dating scenarios of narcissist men with women? Surely you have greater ability to disclose the mind beyond this, no? Or, is this all you can speak of, your only talent? One trick pony? And why not ever talk of what made you who you are? So you know, the narcissist et al is the joker to the court, only the fools mistake as emperor, and this, briefly.
Oh dear. It is always advisable to actually do your reading before commenting. Just off the top of my head
“How To CoParent With A Narcissist”
“How To Handle a Narcissist At Work”
“Parental Hoovers”
“How the Narcissist Keeps It in the Family”
“The MicroManaging Narcissist”
“Divorcing a Narcissist”
“The Nasty Neighbour Narcissist”
The Knowing HG Series
To Cope is To Control
There is a wealth of information about what made me what I am.
There is a wealth of information covering not only romantic ensnarement, but familial, work, social and beyond.
Now, let us see if you will admit your error and apologise or will we have to to put you in a sack with a brick and throw you in the canal?
I vote sack and 2 bricks. Some things need to sink and never resurface.
Kim e:
Not exactly fair to the bricks, is it?
Violetta,
I spoke to the bricks and in the name of Narc Removal, the brick union has agreed to provide us ALL the bricks we require….now and into the future
Hello kitten,
Mr Tudor has published many articles, videos, bulletins and assistance packages about narcissists in different kinds of relationships – and not only in romantic ones.
He has written extensively about himself and how he became a narcissist.
Please let me know what you are looking for and I will refer you to the relevant item.
Kitty-litter:
You have apparently not read “A Very Royal Narcissist” 1-13 or “A Very Performing Narcissist,” both of which focus on Narcissistic abuse of men by women. In addition, HG has written about Narcs in his family, who are produced in more than one gender.
Now please go visit the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market and lick a bat.
Just to clarify animal x transferred the virus to humans. They are still determining what animal it is.
Bats like other animals hold viruses. whilst it can originate from them it doesnt mean it was given to humans by them.
Spare a moment to think of the animals being injected with this virus to create a vaccine.
Have some compassion.
Nope. Outta compassion.
Your comment was on par with your own insecurity.
Julie:
You forgot to mention I eat babies for breakfast. Nothing like a nice, plump, nutritionally balanced baby. Mmmm-mmmm.
@violetta
Don’t worry most of us know what dark humour is and have enough comprehension skills not to take your comment literally
Witch:
Thank you. This is actually a welcome diversion from figuring out how long I can go without having to shop for groceries again, if there are any. I gotta metric fuck-ton of “Yo Mama” lines just waiting to be unleashed.
My son has no immune system.
A month ago he got Parvo & required a blood transfusion to save his life.
I’d *eat* lab animals if I thought it would keep him out of harm’s way.
Alive.
I’m in the “ain’t nobody got time for compassion” camp.
Julie
Spare some compassion for the rest of us who have to read your drivel.
I heard it was from a snake that was sold in the wet market in Wu Han. Snakes eat bats and Chinese eat snakes so the virus was passed from animal to human
“Dinah, my dear! I wish you were down here with me! There are no mice in the air, I’m afraid, but you might catch a bat, and that’s very like a mouse, you know. But do cats eat bats, I wonder?” And here Alice began to get rather sleepy, and went on saying to herself, in a dreamy sort of way, “Do cats eat bats? Do cats eat bats?” and sometimes, “Do bats eat cats?” for, you see, as she couldn’t answer either question, it didn’t much matter which way she put it.
– Lewis Carroll, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland
Violetta
Hahahaha…it looks like your narcissistic trait of wise-ass-ness has come to the fore!
K:
Guilty as charged.
Anybody wants to boss me around, they need to be (in ascending order of importance):
1. On the hiring committee of an English department;
2. Theatrical directors;
3. HG.
Violetta
Hahahahaha…your puckishness is admirable! Life is too damn short to be bossed around.
HG does not have psychosis.
Psychosis is a mental illness involviing hallicinations and delusions for people that have schizophrenia and are not in reality.
Narcissism/Pyscopath is a personality disorder that can not be treated with medication only talk therapy. Both in the DSM but different altogether. HG please correct me if I am wrong.
Pati
Tou are correct. I’ve witnessed elventy billion aspects of NPD and also my mothers psychosis. Completely florid on a witnessed four occasions. Tipping into it many more times.
Completely different.
kitten
This is a good one, too.
https://narcsite.com/2019/03/06/love-is-a-taught-construct-9/
Kitten
I note your usage of the Oxford Comma.
Nah, still dont like it.
HG. When I was NC previously I told you that coming here triggered me badly. You told me it was my ET. I get that. But how do I read and learn if articles like this work the opposite of what I am sure they are intended to do. I read this and as a DLS in NC again for a very short time, I read that the DLS will see and hear from the N quite a bit. My ET says…”well shit…that is a good thing”.The DLS might have the most honest (I know not possible) relationship with the N as opposed to the other IPSS’s.
Well this just makes my ET skyrocket. My logic tells me that this is not a good thing as you are the “other woman”. Well my whole life I have been the other woman (except when I was married and then I was cheating on my spouses) and it is the only thing I know. A lot of my relationships were just sex based. My longest relationship was 8 years. I was the “other woman” and was quite content.
Why is this different for me? Why should I want to escape from the only thing I have ever really known about relationships?
Your Humble empath
Because escaping from such relationships is in your best interests. Listen to How the Intimate Relationship Functions to realise how either situation never ends well unless you escape it. Understand what is happening is that your addiction does not want you to sever your interactions with the narcissist. It utilises ET to prevent this. Every time you read logic your ET goes “Oh we are not having that and surges in order to make you have second thoughts. You then back off, give-up and breach no contact. ET has succeeded (for now). You try again. It happens again. You cannot do this without experiencing some surge in ET BUT it is not permanent and will go down, you have to weather that initial storm for long enough to get the ET down and start to come out the other side. You are not doing that, hence and I understand why this is happening, you keep doubting it. You need to persevere, email me as I have a suggestion to make to help you.
HG. I emailed as requested
Thank you. I shall reply presently.
Kim e
“Why should I want to escape from the only thing I have ever really known about relationships?”
Because you recognize deep down that it has never lead to you feeling content or fulfilled long term? It has lead you here for a reason. The world is filled with people you could have sex with if that were the focus, so that seems unlikely to be the case. Feeling to be the object of desire or being chosen by someone outside of their own relationship is heady stuff indeed and creates a false sense of worth and control. That seems more likely the foundation to an addiction causing dependency on just that person. Not a judgement Kim, just exploring possibility.
Right. So once someone is “persona non grata” he or she is pretty much off the hook, right?
I mean, the narc might text in the distant future if he/she gets hard up for supply, but mostly, once the narc pronounces someone “dead” the “corpse” stays mostly painted black, correct?
No. The Narcissistic Perspective means the narcissist has an unconscious entitlement to that person for life.
No, you can become white because of shifts in the fuel matrix.
I have an irritant—I can’t find it but maybe it was Whitney that said something about not being able to outsmart a narc today, and there was agreement. Once we understand the behavior, we indeed can mitigate damage—I wish you’d clarify the “smart” element when it comes up. It’s not that someone is smarter—they are designed differently. In fact, the control needs in the moment are a supreme way of expressing who can be “smarter.” I can totally make my ex look as he is with strategy—so please clarify when this comes up. If you think I can’t make that foolish man look ridiculous with just my silence alone and knowledge you’ve provided then why are we/I even here? To stay “dumb?” Cater to them? Oops, can’t get near them because they are so “smart” they may bite. Most are stupid fucks truly.
Whitney was playing games to taunt her narc. Challenge fuel is …fuel.
The only way to outwit them is cut off their supply. When that is not possible, reduce it. HG gives some techniques in at least one of the recordings: keep your hands on your purse or in your pockets instead of gesturing expressively. Keep unavoidable interactions short so the narc can’t provoke you put of your neutrality.
Once I understood that the company manager didn’t care if low employee morale reduced productivity and the theatre director didn’t care if the dancers were out if synch with the music as long as they got control right now, everything they did clicked into the pattern.
Same with She-Who-Must hijacking my dissertation to suit her interests while my classmates graduated and lived happily ever after. Did it make her look good that so many students were stampeding away from her, and the ones who stuck with her had a lower rate of completion and worse hire rates? She wanted respect, but the ones who didn’t give a shit about her opinion did better, because she couldn’t chip away at their self-esteem.
It is ALWAYS about fuel.
I understand what Whitney did Violetta—but don’t we already feel duped enough? It’s not smart or about being smarter. It’s understanding how to engage, or not. I know HG didn’t intend to further degrade us. It would be poor business to do so regardless of what he finds spectacular on a personal level re, our own behavior. But no one should heartily agree we can’t “outsmart” the supreme narcissist in a careless manner. Why would I effectively deploy behavioral strategies at my job if they did not work? Such strategies were never designed to be geared to narcissists per se, but they often work because some smart people researched behavioral responses and we have a framework. (And yes, we have to devise strategy often due to the rudimentary narcissist!) It is often very effective and I’m considered the “go to” many times for these often extreme situations. So, this can’t coincide with a lack of smarts against the supreme narcissist. The semantics are important so that new readers (and old) don’t feel defeated. Whitney is a very bright young lady and she made an error. Picking her up and applauding that she is trying and redirecting by explaining the elements of challenging would have better co-mingled in that thread, than the knee jerk “yep—can’t outsmart ‘em” sorta reply. I’m a little grumpy today yes. 💗
To be clear, outsmarting a narcissist suggests interacting with the narcissist. That is a bad move for the reasons explained in “Halting the Hurt” because the three prongs of The Devil´s Pitchfork will pay you a visit. Th rekey is to avoid the narcissist through no contact. If you wish to extend outsmart to include applying no contact, fair enough, but interacting with the narcissist is never to be encouraged for reasons which I have articulated at length. I agree with you that one should avoid creating the idea of defeat and my work nearly always references how you can succeed, beat the narcissist etc.
Join Team HG for the win!
Completely agree—but due to having minor children I have to deploy some thinking smarter to have the wins for the children & my sake. My no contact is modified to the least it can be from a communication perspective—and there is written communication strategy. It’s irrefutable that there is a way to compose requests that ally with his facade for gains (for example). It’s also undeniable that I can “win” for the kids by being “smarter” than his lack of awareness. He laps it up like a cat to milk. Why? Because of your work, I’m smarter than he is as well—the ability to synthesize your work is important. I was always too good for him.
Correct—-and I hate work narcissists.
Lorelei,
Even when I know that my narc ‘appears” to be gaining ground, I know, theoretically, that I have the so-called upper hand because I know what he is and whatever gains he perceives as “winning” will be fleeting – for him.
The way in which they “outsmart” us is that they will go to extreme lengths and new lows in effort to pursue control and fuel in ways that we cannot even conceive of within our particular worldview.
It is more about persistence, resourcefulness and survival instinct when it comes to them, because as HG’s has said, it is all in pursuit of their lifeblood.
We can never be as motivated as them or stoop to their levels.
The way in we can choose to act smarter is by understanding both their motivations and our own, thanks to HG, and apply them accordingly.
I have come to witness in my own situation that all I really have to do is to stand *well* out of the way and my narcissist parades his lack of “smarts” for all to see.
But we can be motivated to a “winning extent” depending on the factor/s involved.. I’ll out-do him with the kids. It’s instinctual for me to protect them. They are never going to be his main focus all of the time so his manipulations toward them to triangulate won’t be considered enough to be consistent. He’s lazy. He will throw punches but I’m calculated consistently for their well being and provide a more appealing environment. Overall. Had I not been schooled by HG this would not be the case. I would kill someone with not a thought if needed to protect my children, he would not. There is some drive to protract from his influence.
Lorelei,
You have a point.
An empath parent’s desire to protect his or children can be a formidable force.
Yes Whocares.. And there are many mids with more energy but his flavor is “lazy”—prefers fuel from women (and he can easily get them) and relies on the kids for some fuel, but mostly the facade element. (I guess it all wraps together..)
Case in point.. My son did not come home from his house this morning with the girls. He’s only 10 and the girls say the girlfriend is with him as she’s working from home. I can’t tell you what cursed through my blood. She is a criminal bar whore. Had I not found HG’s work I would have called him and went off. Where would that leave me? Or my son? My ex would be be forced to get un-lazy to establish control, and he’d triangulate amongst his treasury of other tools to further the issue via the challenge the narcissism drives. The narcissism won’t allow laziness in the moment. I don’t challenge it and it’s more dormant toward me & the kids are impacted less.
This is why the comments re, being smart or not make me insane. Guess who comes home tomorrow and will not be with the girlfriend any further in the day when I’m home?
I had a beautiful short, email composed & sent with a story compelling my son to be at home, with the response it was designed to generate. Precise response. So, even though I have many deficits (having felt dumb over what has occurred) I have the upper hand with someone as simple as he is. I don’t have a need for control in the moment so didn’t need to call and blow up. I almost liken him to a “disease state.” So we are smart. He is akin to managing diabetes as I now what makes “it” tick. This is where smart comes in. Yes, they go really low at times to exert control, but why would he need to if he views me as simply black and overall acquiesced in demeanor? He doesn’t. He may have an uptick need for fuel from me or kids, so I avoid by means of diminishing risk and only email contact infrequently. So, smarty pants sees me neatly on the shelf painted black, but who is holding the dagger now? He will never win this with me but he thinks he is. There is some sweetness in his predictably and simple nature.
That’s an excellent example and response on your part Lorelei – good for you.
“My son did not come home from his house this morning with the girls. He’s only 10 and the girls say the girlfriend is with him as she’s working from home. I can’t tell you what cursed through my blood.”
He likely did this having some sense of your opinion of his new IPPS and thought fuel from remembering how the old Lorelei may have reacted. Yep, low energy way to provoke fuel: simply by withholding a child under those circumstances.
“He will never win this with me but he thinks he is. There is some sweetness in his predictably and simple nature.”
You’re right. He will likely struggle to outwit the new and improved Lorelei.
Whocares—cats are crafty so we use traps to catch them and there are ways volunteers get colonies of them vaccinated and spayed/neutered. Try to walk Into a feral cat colony with no instructions & you get bit, diseases, etc. My ex is one big ball of instincts—like they all are, cats fighting against the water.. A fucking moron.
Lorelei,
“My ex is one big ball of instincts—like they all are, cats fighting against the water.. A fucking moron.”
You made me laugh. And you made miss my cat. He was a vindictive sweetheart. He taught me a lot about predictive behaviour. He also helped me heal after the abuse even though he was a casualty of the abusive situation too. I respect cats.
Cats are fun. It’s true though. Instinct driven behavior broken down in HG’s work offers predictive behavior. I also predict I’ll be seeing patients for “triage” in tents within 2 weeks. Stay inside—my area will be hit especially hard with death rates potentially because nearly all are smokers.
Take care Lorelei!
And I absolutely meant to say cursed and not coursed. I was furious because this woman is now a convicted criminal. You should see her comrades. Her brother has initials for his name and props himself up on big trucks for pictures. He is the NASCAR t-short awardee of the year kinda guy. I’d act like we adopted him if he were my brother.
Haha!
Yes, I have read your further descriptions elsewhere.
Lorelei – it’s funny and it’s not funny.
Lorelei
I think this may be it.
https://narcsite.com/2020/03/16/trait-detector/
K—I’m not ready for this miserable news yet. Eventually!
And that, HG, is truly frightening.
Yes it is!
Sunshine—the important thing is that they become persona non grata to you.