Forever Wrong Upon The Throne
It is late.
The time is somewhere between the witching hour and when the devil stalks the land yet the pull of slumber has yet to be felt. The darkness envelopes me with only the silver burnish of moonlight to pick out the objects around me and ensure they retain some familiarity.
It is cold but I do not object, content to sit with the window open and allow the night air to infiltrate my domain. The cold touch of the darkness soothes me and a calm has settled upon my person. I am sat, alone, yet I have no concerns, for the day has proved fruitful, as always, in my quest for fuel. Although not sated I am neither in desperate need nor bloated from my repeated extractions.
There is room for more, there is always room for more but I do not feel that driving need to acquire more. Instead the stillness and the calm engulf me as I sit here and look out from my elevated situation, through the wide open window and across the garden and the fields beyond.
My still alert eyes detect no movement of beast nor breeze. The trees still as if in silent salute. The birds that so often fly past are nested for the night and in the distance the intermittent hoot of an owl is a reminder that although I am sat alone there is still something out there. It is at times like this, when the freneticism has subsided, the hurly burly of the day’s cut and thrust has given way to this rare and unusual state that I remember.
My gaze remains steady as I look out across those undulating fields, fields so similar to the ones that we used to run through didn’t we? Where are you? Where are you now?
Why are you not sat beside me, king and queen like we used to when we planned our lives all that times ago? You must forgive me. I have not thought of you as often or as deeply as I ought to have done but I have been about other things.
I know you understand. I know you recognise that the demands made upon me would be beyond others and that I must attend to those demands. I know that you realise that to dwell too often would leave me weakened and that must not happen but moments such as these, when I find myself feeling freed of my burden then I am able to reach out to you, wherever you may be.
Although I do not often permit it, you remain etched into my memory and I know with the certainty that the world will not stop spinning, that you will always reside in my memory. Yet, I must confess, that is not enough. Should a moment or an instance bring to the surface an element of our past I am bound to push it away, cast it deep into the recesses of my mind and place it behind bolted door and fearsome gate.
There is not hope for me to do anything else, for to indulge in recollection at such times would distract me too greatly from my endeavours. I know I ought not to do it but I must do so. For such moments I am moved to seek your forgiveness from your benevolent self in the full knowledge that I am told that I deserve none.
It is now when I sit on this chair and besides yours, ‘our thrones’ as we once called them, that I am able to allow your memory to consume me. I reach out with my hand and expect that somehow I will feel your cool hand slide into mine just one more time yet there is nothing.
Just that absence that has remained constant no matter how hard I labour to fill it. We would sit side by side wouldn’t we and look out across those fields through which we ran to our secret places, those sanctuaries and idylls dotted throughout our kingdom?
We issued our declarations as one, formulated our ordinances of governance for the betterment of our subjects and did so with great gladness. Do I miss doing so together or have I just been conditioned to believe that I miss it?
Where are you? Why will you only show yourself as memory ? Why will you not come back to me ? You could do so, even if as a shade to haunt me as I sit amidst this encompassing darkness. Do you remain distant from me to punish m, joining the legions of the traitorous? Have they turned you against me? Perhaps you do and I am told that such punishment is only right for one such as I.
I know myself for what I am and I seek to purge that which grips me each and every day through the frenzied application to my endeavours in the hope that they will allow me to be granted absolution and you will return. I swear, I swear by all that I am, I would accept these labours at a tenfold if only to see you once again, hear your voice and look upon you as you take my hand as you always did. We joined as one and we were better for it were we not? Come back to me? Return. Sit beside me once again and let us find that which we once had and should always have.
I sit in the darkness as I say these thoughts aloud, my low and steady voice seeming distant and disembodied. I pause and wait expecting you to answer but there is no response.
Come back to me because for all that I have done and for all that I am about to do, without you I will sit forever wrong upon the throne.
And I must be right.
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Reading this again, after the heart-shattering discovery that was made by ZB in the private forum, I am moved all the more.
I implore all empaths who desire to truly understand the meaning of this post (and HG) to purchase the Knowing HG series and the Clue hunter. Joint the private forum and read the SHOCKING discovery that will illuminate so much more than you will ever realize without this KEY piece of knowledge.
This post is NOT what it seems. It is far more meaningful to the greatest depths. I promise you will not want to miss this. This knowledge will forever change your perception and judgments of this post and so much more.
Black coffee, sorry there isn’t a place for me to “reply.” That was before I found this website. 🙂 I had this genetic pull to narcissists that I felt made to please them. I know it sounds weird but it’s in my genes. I am not dating & I am in total no contact with all my exes don’t worry haha. But yeah it’s this pull that I had. My parents are AMAZING, I had a perfect childhood, so I didn’t grow up with a toxic environment or anything so it’s definitely genetic! I know my paternal grandfather was a narcissist. I found a photo the other day of me maybe two years old & I see him out a window & you can see I’m physically drawn to him. I put my hand against the window, wanting to hold his hand. In contrast, my cousin & I were talking a couple weeks ago & she said he tortured her, made her eat tongue, & she was so relieved when he passed away. Me however, you can see even as a baby, I was drawn to him. I’d post the picture here if there was a feature for that haha it can be powerful stuff! The “addiction” package on here helped me a lot!
Glad I saw this! Looking back I see that I’ve been drawn to borderline Ns leading up to this most recent “relationship” with a MMR Elite Type A, and it is a total mind fuck. I keep thinking he is real and despite logic and knowing all the shitty things he did, I continue to have positive emotional thoughts about him. What I like the most about this site is there is a place for IPSS (all varieties) without judgment. It’s like we don’t exist on most other sites. Quite strange when you consider how many Narcs require IPSSs.
I know EXACTLY what you mean!! And that’s wonderful 🙂
I read this article 3 times.
The first time it was very triggering.
It was like reading the words of a fellow empath, like reading the words of my soulmate describing my feelings, channeling my deep longing. The overwhelming feeling of wanting to reach out, to sooth his pain, to run to him, to tell him I love him very much and I too miss him and what we had. As I went through the full blown emotions and well aware of who exactly wrote these poetic, heartbreaking words which triggered them, I thought: ooookay, steady now, this article is dangerous territory here.
I allowed the wave of emotions to rise and subside and then I re-read a second time, then again a third time. I read slowly, comparing each sentence to how I would word things if I was describing my longing, describing the feeling of missing someone I deeply love. This exercise was like applying an acid test to see if something is made out of real gold; as I compared the words of the article to my inner reality, the shiny gold veneer evoked by the poetic words, came off, vanished, to reveal the machinery, the mind behind it. By the end of the third read, the veil of emotions lifted completely and I understood the article in the clear light of day for what it is. This is not about an empathic person remembering and missing the beloved, the happiness, the good times that were shared. This article exclusively expresses the warped narcissistic perspective, albeit cleverly disguised:
1 In the whole article, there is not a single word which is about the “beloved”, whoever it is, they are clearly interchangeable, expendable. This in it self already excludes that what is being described has anything to do with loving another person.
2 “Where are you? Where are you now? Why are you not sat beside me…?”
First time I read this as meaning “I miss you so very much”, but it is about control: “Why are you not here to attend to me? How dare you to be somewhere else than at my side, where you should be to fulfill my needs?”
3 “You must forgive me. I have not thought of you as often or as deeply as I ought to have done but I have been about other things. I know you understand. I know you recognise that the demands made upon me would be beyond others and that I must attend to those demands. I know that you realise that to dwell too often would leave me weakened and that must not happen….”
First time I read, I though this is an expression of remorse, of regret, but it is about arrogance and entitlement: “I did what I did because of my own needs, therefore what I did was justified.” The matter-of-fact assumption that understanding regarding his actions should be forthcoming is pure arrogance.
4 “Although I do not often permit it, you remain etched into my memory and I know with the certainty that the world will not stop spinning, that you will always reside in my memory. Yet, I must confess, that is not enough. Should a moment or an instance bring to the surface an element of our past I am bound to push it away, cast it deep into the recesses of my mind and place it behind bolted door and fearsome gate.”
First time I read this to mean: “you are my soulmate” but it is about owning someone: “you are my extension, my property till death do us part, but right now you are of no use to me so I have to put you down, put you away somewhere where you cannot hinder me in my self-serving pursuit”
5 “There is not hope for me to do anything else, for to indulge in recollection at such times would distract me too greatly from my endeavours. I know I ought not to do it but I must do so. For such moments I am moved to seek your forgiveness from your benevolent self in the full knowledge that I am told that I deserve none.”
First time I read this, it sounded so beautiful, so heartbreaking, as if he feels genuine remorse and humility and he is down on one knee asking for forgiveness, but it is a very clever play of words, used to disguise the true message: he feels he is entitled to do whatever his needs dictate and that he is entitled to and deserves understanding and forgiveness for his self-centered actions, despite of being told he does not deserve any of it, which he then uses to feel sorry for himself.
6 “We issued our declarations as one, formulated our ordinances of governance for the betterment of our subjects and did so with great gladness. Do I miss doing so together or have I just been conditioned to believe that I miss it?”
First time read I thought he is remembering the good times, the happiness shared in the relationship but it is about incorporating someone as an extension of himself and making her into someone who does his bidding. The last sentence is so completely off, it can only be said by a narc.
7 “Where are you? Why will you only show yourself as memory ? Why will you not come back to me ? You could do so, even if as a shade to haunt me as I sit amidst this encompassing darkness. Do you remain distant from me to punish m, joining the legions of the traitorous? Have they turned you against me? Perhaps you do and I am told that such punishment is only right for one such as I.”
First time I read this it sounded so heartbreaking, like a gentle soul who has been wronged undeservedly, separated from his true love by cruel fate and is being weight down by the tremendous grief of that unbearable separation, but it is a pity play; he sees himself as the victim, as the one who is being punished by the true victim because they are not at his side to attend to him. Poor him who has been wronged so much by the world and is now again being wronged by the true victim’s traitorous absence.
8 “I know myself for what I am and I seek to purge that which grips me each and every day through the frenzied application to my endeavours in the hope that they will allow me to be granted absolution and you will return. I swear, I swear by all that I am, I would accept these labours at a tenfold if only to see you once again, hear your voice and look upon you as you take my hand as you always did. We joined as one and we were better for it were we not? Come back to me? Return. Sit beside me once again and let us find that which we once had and should always have.”
More victim-hood and pity play with a touch of martyrdom for added drama. There is a complete lack of accountability for his part in the state of affairs. Not a single word about taking responsibility for his part in the relationship and its ending, there is not a single word expressing genuine remorse. He just want the victim back to attend to his needs.
9 “Come back to me because for all that I have done and for all that I am about to do, without you I will sit forever wrong upon the throne. And I must be right.”
First time read I thought this to mean: “I love you, I miss you, my life is meaningless without you” though the last sentence felt very off, even in the first reading with the veil of emotions.
The end of the article comes full circle. This is about the one thing the narcissist cannot bear: the loss of control. The victim escaping and moving on is experienced as loss of control and is the “wrong” that the narcissist cannot tolerate in his kingdom. I must be right equals the narcissistic motto of I must have control.
HG, you are truly masterful with words. Like a great magician you conjure up beautiful imagery out of thin air, sounding almost like an empath. Almost. But all that glitters is not gold.
I am really grateful for the opportunity this article provided to clarify and dissolve old emotions. By now, I am educated enough to avoid narcissistic ensnarement, but the flushing out of old emotions from the system is still ongoing. Through your work I can experience them in the safety of my sanctuary, allowing them to surface and be dissolved in the light of knowing, like wispy clouds dissolving and evaporating in the bright light of the sun.
Thank you,
Emma
Thank you Emma, it was very interesting to read your thoughts about this piece. You make many thoughtful observations, some accurate and some not, but nevertheless it was interesting to read.
Thank you HG. I am sure my understanding of the narcissistic perspective can be improved upon. Still lot to learn in that department. I find your work and the blog triggering and also quite addictive. I have to take it in moderate doses at a time.
If I may ask you a question, could an empath who knows what you are ever be an IPPS to you or be anywhere in your fuel matrix for that matter? A situation where the empath would provide fuel but do that out of their own choice and not because of your manipulations. Similar to a situation where a loving mother provides for the needs of the child, while remaining undisturbed by its antics and by the tantrums it is throwing.
Let me respond with a question for you, why would an empath who knows what I am and has very low ET ever want to be the IPPS? Somehow with heightened ET would readily know what I am and still want to be the IPPS for a variety of different reasons caused by ET, but why would an empath with very low ET want to be the IPPS to a narcissist?
HG: “Let me respond with a question for you, why would an empath who knows what I am and has very low ET ever want to be the IPPS?”
My question stems from thought explorations / contemplations regarding the limits of the empath- narcissist relationship. My godchild (8), when he is afraid of abandonment, acts out sometimes in ways that reminds me of my nex. Because I have a deep connection with the child and I can feel and empathize with his anxiety, his behavior is not disturbing to me, I can just be there for him, provide him with the reassurance he needs. I see that when he feels my undisturbed non-judgmental peace and reassurance, his anxiety often dissolves and he is able to adjust his own behavior without me having to tell him to do so.
The thought I had was, what if I had the knowledge I have now about NPD and I could have been with the nex in the same undisturbed way as I am with my godchild, what would have happened? The situation is hypothetical, I doubt if I actually would or could do it and the only reason to ever consider would be to help. I would go to the ends of the world if I had to for my godchild, my love for the nex is not quite as deep but I do wish him well and I would help him if I could, provided it did not compromise my own well being and safety.
To continue the thought exploration, the hypothetical situation would indeed mean low ET. This would of course be experienced as lack of fuel by the narc. But if you as an empath would provide fuel by giving your time, attention, support, encouragement, positive feedback, like you would with a beloved child, with the understanding that they are not in the position to love you back in the same way and you have no expectations in that regard, how would such an approach look like from the narcissistic perspective? Would the loving intend behind the approach be sensed at all by the narc, like I see with my godchild? Or would the narc experience a loving but low ET empath as something negative? As frustrating? As boring? As manipulative even and reason for devaluation and discard?
1. Your godchild is not a narcissist.
2. You are being led by emotional thinking and comparing a response to a non-narcissist with that of the response of a narcissist. Your desire to help is your ET corrupting your empathic traits to cause you to interact with the narcissist further in an honest, yet mistaken and ultimately futile way.
3. Your final paragraph demonstrates that you do not understand (and that is to be expected) what ET is. The fact that you contemplate any form of interaction with the narcissist demonstrates a high level of ET. If your ET was at a very low level, you would not engage in the behaviour you are suggesting because you would abide by logic. Again, you are confusing how a non-narcissist (your godchild) responds and honestly, yet mistakenly, believing that the narcissist might respond in a similar way to your godson.
If you know you are dealing with a narcissist, you apply GOSO. You get out and you stay out. Even though you know what the narcissist is, you cannot succeed in because of the presence of The Devil´s Pitchfork (see Halting the Hurt). Indeed if you know what you are dealing with AND you have very low ET, you would abide by GOSO and not contemplate what you are suggesting.
HG, I should have been more clear: I am NOT contemplating to lift the boundaries I set up for the nex.
You are right, I am comparing the behavior of a child to that of a narcissist because the similarities are quite striking, and because I can only imagine the child who lacked the love it deserved at a crucial time in his life. That got me contemplating on the past relationship with the nex. It has been six year of disengagement now from that relationship, there is no hurt, no grunge, no hard feelings, no active pining, I just wish the nex well.
I did not say I am low ET in the interaction with a narc, I am low ET in the interaction with my godson. My question was a thought experiment: what if an empath could be loving and non-reactive like that in the interaction with a narcissist….
I am not assuming but asking the question whether the loving intend behind the non-reactive approach can be sensed and appreciated at all by the narc, like it would be by a non-narc, or whether that loving intend would be distorted and warped. I am basically asking how a loving low ET empath would be perceived by a narcissist and if they could be an IPPS to the narcissist. I am asking it, not because I am contemplating re-engagement with the nex, but because I would like know, because I am a truth seeker, and also because you HG are the only one I know who can answer this question from the narcissistic perspective.
If you are continuing to love the narcissist, you do not have low ET.
HG, I do not claim I have low ET in the interaction with a narcissist.
I know you are processing a multitude of comments at any given time, so I understand if this may have escaped you, but I stated as much already in my earlier replies.
I have asked a “suppose if…” question with the aim of improving my understanding of the narcissistic perspective. If you do not wish to get into that question, than that is fine of course.
Hello Emma, I appreciate your observation about me processing many comments, but your earlier comment demonstrates you have misunderstood what I am explaining. It is not a case of not wanting to get into the question, but there is no point addressing a question when it is incorrectly prefaced.
If you state that you have low ET and that you are providing love etc to a narcissist, that shows you do not have low ET and you are being conned.
If you had low ET, you would realise there was no point in trying to provide love etc to a narcissist and you would not do it. If you think that you should somehow try to understand the narcissist, love them, accept them then you are suffering from high ET.
Your reply is insightful HG. Thank you for explaining.
I understand now that, even though it may appear to be so at times, you just cannot interact with a narcissist in a way that could be called normal. There really is no way to get past the disorder as sad as it is to realization.
You are welcome.
The reason for formulating my question as: “..could an empath who knows what you are ever be an IPPS to you ” is that the nex senses I know what he is.
I doubt that he does. What he might sense is that you are responding differently to him (for some reason) and thus threatening his control.
1. fair point
2. see my other reply
If I understand this correctly, a situation where the empath would provide fuel but do that out of their own choice and not because of HG’s manipulations wouldn’t be fuel. The whole point of fuel is that our emotions are the product of the narc’s own choices, not ours.
We must not be happy because of a pretty sunset; we must be happy because the narc drove us to a lookout point where we could see the beautiful sunset. We must not cry because we lost our job; we must cry because the narc told us that even if there was a mass layoff (redundancy in UK), they were probably planning to get rid of us for a while because we are so lazy and stupid, and this was just the excuse to.do it.
Correct.
Amazing how things suddenly make sense to a Tudorite. A friend of mine I knew from reenactors before I got the job where I met Wanna-Be Playuh-Narc had run into him after she had lost everything in hurricane Katrina.
He told her she was stupid to live in that area.
Thank you Violetta, yes that makes sense that manipulated emotions are a main form of fuel. I was thinking of thinks like one’s time, attention, support, encouragement, positive feedback etc. as forms of “free” fuel.
Another one for my fridge: “The whole point of fuel is that our emotions are the product of the narc’s own choices, not ours.”
I don’t think I ever completely understood this before.
Violetta, I appreciate how you put this and your examples–especially the sunset one–really help me comprehend the fuel dynamic.
I’m remembering one of our four big break-ups, when I experienced summer afternoons and sunsets without him. I felt unable to enjoy them, like I didn’t deserve to enjoy them without him. I don’t know if that makes any sense to anyone. I am still trying to work it out.
Emma,
“I was thinking of thinks like one’s time, attention, support, encouragement, positive feedback etc. as forms of “free” fuel.”
None of those things are free when offered from an empath to a narcissist.
WhoCares, I meant “free” from emotional charge and “free” as in not coerced but offered out of free choice by the empath.
Thank-you Emma for clarifying. But as empaths, it is incredibly hard to not offer an emotionally charged response (it is written all over our faces and body language and is partly why HG is always of the opinion that NC is in our best interest – because we cannot hide what we are.) And if we offered fuel “freely” as in not ‘coerced’ – I think it likely wouldn’t read as authentic to the narcissist so that they would just attempt a tactic to ensure that we are provoked. Or it wouldn’t be “fueling” – as Violetta stated elsewhere – to them and therefore not evidence of their control. So they would just exert control in another way.
Well stated.
Thank-you HG.
You are welcome.
WhoCares,
I agree, it would be difficult to respond to the narcissist without an emotional charge. It is a “suppose if…” question: just suppose one was able to – like a mother is able to remain non-reactive with a child – remain non-reactive with a narcissist and offer fuel without emotional charge, how would the narcissist react?
I think you’re right, the initial reaction will be to raise the stakes, to escalate the manipulations and up the ante to provoke. But suppose that one could remain unprovoked, like a mother remains undisturbed by the various antics of the child, and the narcissist finally realizes he is simply not able to provoke you, how would they react?
Would the narcissist reject the freely offered non-reactive but genuine attention, support, positive feedback etcetera and disengage, because, without coerced emotions, he does not consider them as fuel? Or would he perhaps be able to taste something that is not his preferred drug of choice but is nevertheless strangely sustaining somehow?
For obvious reasons it would be difficult to get concrete answers from a real life situation. Still, interesting questions.
Emma
I believe it would depend on the type of narcissist and relationship (intimate or familial etc). In my case it was child (me) and Stepfather (Lesser). Sating him through positive fuel (as I now know it) was always attempted first, but when he wanted the negative my mother gave in easily so I can now see in hindsight that is when he would turn to me in a sort of sick two for one (disgust and upset from her fuelling him while he challenged me). I am less outwardly responsive (no crying, neutral expression etc) so the fuel would be all the sweeter if he could get a response. He learned in time to up the ante and hurt or threaten to hurt others around me in order to get what he wanted from me. The narcissism demands control and that is not demonstrated through the target (intimate or otherwise) volunteering positive fuel or non reaction, so it finds a work around to get that sweet manipulated fuelled response it craves and signals that it has control of another. I believe that is why it cannot be a successful relationship for the non narcissistic partner. Any attempt would just result in them being fooled into martyring them self.
Hi Narc Angel. I remember you sharing your childhood with us. I met you when you first came on the blog. Love your spunky ‘tell it like it is’ attitude. We’ve all gone through various changes through the years. What has changed about you (emotionally / mentally) since you’ve been here?
Love
I’m less emotional and more mental haha.
I no longer interact with narcs intimately outside of my relationship.
I no longer feel the need for revenge as I now know it to be futile in effecting any change.
I understand better the different reactions to narcissism due to the different types of empaths and schools and cadres of narcs.
I’m nicer in my responses (that one is always good for a laugh).
What about you? I have thought about you and several others that have fallen away from the blog over the years and wonder if or how life has changed for you/them. I pictured you travelling more.
That’s beautiful to hear Narc Angel! It seems your heart is more at peace now. Yes, I have traveled a lot!!! Matter of fact, I took 3 international trips back to back right before the quarantine… and developed severe turbulence anxiety. Lol so I’m quite content being on the ground now.
As for narcs, oh ya, I still interact. But my emotional regulation is better … or is it? Lol depends on the time of day. I’ve had some interesting experiences. They all hold a special place in my heart. Not much anger or resentment for them. I have been a willing participant. Even learned about the D/s dynamic. Though It seemed a bit vanilla for my taste. Lol 😆 not as much mental/emotional torture as I expected. ❤️
NarcAngel, thank you for sharing your experience. Reading it was nauseating because I could sense the impossible situation and abuse you experienced as a child. I am so sorry you had to go through that. Please feel free to ignore the question if you don’t want to answer, but if I may ask, was your mother a narcissist too that she fail to protect you from molestation? Living under the same roof, she must have seen what he was doing to you?
It is difficult enough to escape and remain free as an adult but if you are the child in the narcissistic relationship, it is utterly impossible to escape the control, manipulations and abuse, not without an intervention.
Your reply made me realize that my hypothetical question probably came to mind because my relationship with the nex was positive and did not involve abuse, not until the last 2 months or so of the relationship with the sudden unset of devaluation. At which point I acted swiftly and implemented firm boundaries. And made sure he could not circumvent them. I was able to do so because I am an adult and as an abuse survivor I have built myself a life that does not depend on others. It is impossible for a child to take such a stance because by definition it is in a position of dependency. And even if you are an adult, it will be very difficult to take such a stance, if you have no place to go, are financially depended and have children with the narcissist.
Your independence needs to come first. You cannot offer something out of free choice if you are in a position of dependency in the relationship with the narcissist.
As I wrote in my reply to WhoCares, I think one of the first requirements for remaining unprovoked by the narcissistic antics would be a situation where the narcissist does not have any leverage on you. Sharing a house, financial dependency, having a child together, these can all be used as leverage to manipulate, to coerce. Another requirement would be to see the manipulations clearly for what they are without the fog of confusion. And in addition to that, if you could flush out old emotions from the system, that would remove reactivity all together. It is a steep learning curve for achieving complete freedom. From this place, an empath would then be at liberty to offer something out of free choice and remain non-reactive as the narcissist ups the ante.
Hi Emma
Not sure what in my comment had you focus on molestation, but my 3 siblings, myself, and my mother all suffered various forms of abuse. All with long term and ongoing effect.
Yes, difficult for an adult to leave but impossible for a child under age. Even when the child turns of age they may feel responsible for those younger or for the other parent and stay. Money? Excuse. I would rather have lived in a park. Fear of violence? Excuse. If there is already violence there will be more, and if there was none previously the emotional damage is racking up and could lead to it anyway (and not necessarily by the narcissist). The children are shielded? Bullshit. You can’t hide tension and kids see and hear things you have no idea about. I never saw my parents having sex but I am affected in that department all the same. Some will offer that it’s not that bad in their case when compared to ……Bullshit. They are all excuses offered up by the addiction to the narcissist that twists logic and lays a warm blanket over the cold hard truth that allows one to stay. That’s my stance and I am unapologetic about giving children a voice, harsh as it may be.
As for the narcissist not having any leverage on you? I don’t believe that’s possible. Even if it were possible and someone was to flush out emotion and remove reactivity altogether, they are already sacrificing and becoming something other than they really are in order to maintain the relationship, I’d say a form of dependence has already taken hold and we’re back at them having leverage. Doesn’t sound like success for anyone but the narcissist.
NA, Fantastic logic bomb: “They are all excuses offered up by the addiction to the narcissist that twists logic and lays a warm blanket over the cold hard truth that allows one to stay.”
Emma,
Yes, there are interesting questions and a good thought experiment in one way…
“But suppose that one could remain unprovoked, like a mother remains undisturbed by the various antics of the child”
If, hypothetically, one could remain unprovoked by the narc’s antics then the narc would not be having their needs met. And so the narc would up the ante like you said, or turn elsewhere to have their needs met. Even if we were providing consistent middle grade fuel – it gets stale to the narcissist (don’t know if you’ve read Fuel, but it’s addressed in that book) and to stay in a such a situation the narcissist needs contrast to make the fuel “tasty” again. That is accomplished by provoking negative fuel (more potent) or seeking fuel elsewhere from someone else to provide the contrast. And even if you could provide a consistent level of fuel, they are hyper sensitive to control, so we still manage to do things that cause them wounding – which requires the extraction of fuel to repair. We can never predict the wounding.
And I can actually provide some real life context. When in my past relationship, towards the end, the situation was similar to Covid-19 lockdown in that we were geographically and socially isolated. I was not providing peak fuel because of being worn down. (Also, because, I instinctively started conserving emotional resources.) Our day to day life was full of tasks at hand that could not be ignored, therefore, I didn’t even have time to fuel him. The way he shifted his machinations was actually to do useful things, cook stuff, make useful stuff and other needed things that would still provoke appreciation and praise from me (like praising a child). The other things he did to provoke were to engage in very bizarre accusations, and cross the line by picking arguments in front of our child or getting physically aggressive towards our child and even cross the line to involve third parties (when the opportunity arrived) and drop the mask in their presence, so that I was obligated to react.
WhoCares, thank you for sharing your experience. You make some interesting observations. The behavior of helping out as a means to gain your attention is something I recognize.
Being stuck with a narcissist in a lock down type of situation together with your child, that sounds quite horrific. Especially when you had to fear for the well being of your child. I am sorry you had to live through that. I hope you have been able to free yourself.
I think one of the main requirements for remaining unprovoked by the narcissistic antics would be a situation where the narcissist does not have any leverage on you. Sharing a house, financial dependency, having a child together, these can all be used as leverage to manipulate, to coerce. Another requirement would be to see the manipulations clearly for what they are without the fog of confusion. In addition to that, if you could flush out old emotions from the system, that would remove reactivity all together. It is a steep learning curve for achieving complete freedom. From this place, an empath would then be at liberty to offer something out of free choice and remain non-reactive as the narcissist ups the ante.
Emma – Are you or have you been an IPPS to narcissist?
Lisk:
I went through it too. It took me a while before I could enjoy anything again. A gang of reenactors used to go to Aquavit in NYC around Christmas or New Year’s. It was an excuse to stuff our faces (one guy looking for the venison featured on the previous year’s smorgasbord notoriously called loudly, “Where’s Bambi? I wanna eat Bambi!” to horrified looks from other diners). It was also an excuse to dress up: usually the women would shoot for something simultaneously upscale and bimbetic, despite the fact that most of us were struggling to establish ourselves professionally, and our real lives were something out of Avenue Q.
The year after I suffered from Inflammation of the Narc, I went through the entire dinner feeling unworthy to enjoy either the food or dressing up. There was a guy with similar hair to Wanna-Be Playuh-Narc at the next table, and I spent most of the evening wondering if he would think I was unfuckable too. It was as if I had become 9-years-old again, with buck teeth and Band-Aids on my knees.
I was better looking then than I am now, but I would not go back to that time if I had to take the mindset along with the body.
Lisk and Emma:
It’s taken me a while to get it. I asked HG about the way one guy acted on Valentine’s Day, and with that plus Wanna-be Playuh-Narc’s shenanigans, I’m finally getting the picture. We are squeaky toys to them. We must laugh, cry, and lust at their bidding. They not only aren’t interested in what we naturally find humorous, sad, or desirable, they are indignant that we should have such impulses without their turning the key in our backs. Such presumption on our parts implies we might be, ya know, sentient beings, instead of just good appliances.
Violetta, what you describe is the way an infant sees the mother; an infant is yet unable to differentiate between itself and the mother and is unable to see her as a person in her own right. The mother is seen as something that is there to fulfill the needs of the child, not as an autonomous person. The narcissist has an arrested development and is emotionally at the level of a child. We think we are dealing with a grown man while we are being manipulated by someone with the emotional development of a child in the body of a man.
Lisk, your comment, “I’m remembering one of our four big break-ups, when I experienced summer afternoons and sunsets without him. I felt unable to enjoy them, like I didn’t deserve to enjoy them without him. I don’t know if that makes any sense to anyone. I am still trying to work it out.”
My thoughts on this are two-fold:
1) In your mind he was integral to your experiences. So post breakup, you may feel that without the missing part (and all your beliefs tied to that feeling) you are no longer able to enjoy them. Your mind & emotions are noting the equation is missing a part.
2) if at that time you based your sense of approval/’love’ on him or your relationship, then a strong association would be tide to your experience of all things based upon that faulty approval system. Once parted, the implied approval would be absent and could carry over to your feeling you do not deserve good things (in absence of that approval).
Either way, you certainly do deserve to enjoy all life has to offer with or without another, and to know your own worth regardless of another. I am glad you no longer are so affected by his influence or the associations tied to that relationship. You seem much stronger now.
Emma:
Personally, I think babies have a significant amount of empathy compared to Narcissists.
Hi Violeta, I guess that depends on how one defines empathy. I agree though, babies do not have highly developed manipulations to get their needs met or feed off other people’s pain and hurt. Babies are open, vulnerable and defenseless, the very things narcissists try to avoid at all cost.
Emma, in that line of thinking, you may THINK you have low ET but that’s not true. The very thought of you having low ET is ET making you think that. I hope I make sense haha like what you think is low ET is really ET in of itself. Your ET wants to trick you so it may make you think you’re not experiencing much of it when you are.
Hi Ashley,
I am low ET in the interaction with my godson, not necessarily low ET in the interaction with a narcissist. I was talking about a thought experiment: what if an empath could be loving and non-reactive / low ET [like with a child] in the interaction with a narcissist….
Emma, I think I know what you mean 🙂 Sorry if I am misunderstanding your thought…but the way I am interpreting it, it wouldn’t work. I can tell you I was loving & non-reactive to every narcissist I’ve been with & it doesn’t work at alllll. Not at allllll haha. I have never been with a guy who wasn’t a narcissist. No matter how wonderful I was, the way I think you are referring to, the outcomes were so similar. It’s never going to work in a healthy way no matter what you try. My male friends would have NO idea why my relationships unfolded the way they did. They would say, “Ashley you’re perfect, it’s like you were made in a computer!!” But if you looked at my relationships, the men disappearing out of nowhere & for no reason, you might start to wonder after awhile. In short, you can’t out-manuever the disorder itself & to try to is ET.
Ashley,
Thank you for sharing your experience. I guess you are right, you cannot get past the disorder.
If I may ask, did you know at the time of your relationships what you were dealing with and decided to remain in the relationship anyway?
Ashley,
That sounds exhausting!!
Knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t be with a N because I know that I would not be getting anything in return.
Emma, you may ask me anything you like. 🙂 Yes, there have been times I knew & I stayed. I stayed because I was under the delusion that if I kept making everything wonderful, the man would go back to normal. Nope nope nope!!! I don’t recommend even thinking about it for a second. That’s why as soon as you find out, you have to remove yourself from the relationship.
Thank you Ashley, glad you changed your mind about staying with a narcissist. I have dealings with work related narcissists from time to time, but fortunately my personal life is narc free. I intend to keep it that way.
The brilliance and skill in the writing demonstrating our own projection and how effectively that can be used against us. We really do the heavy lifting for them. Once you know, you can admire the writing for a different reason. Still, it’s a beautiful read.
NarcAngel,
The mirroring is indeed uncanny, It is because I was acutely aware of who wrote these words, and started investigating closely, otherwise it is so easy to believe the ingenious soulmate narrative.
The thing is though, I do believe that the longing HG so eloquently describes is genuine and identical to my longing as an empath: the longing for fulfilment is the common ground of both the empath and the narcissist. It is the method of acquiring that fulfilment which is different. The person with NPD has learned a destructive, parasitic coping strategy to fulfill their needs. As empaths we recognized the shared longing, but fail to understand and accept the big difference: the parasitic coping strategy, which is hard to conceive from an empathtic perspective.
So there is actual truth to the soulmate narrative, which makes it all the more difficult to get out of ensnarement. Although the full recognition of kinship with my nex was the very thing that broke asunder the narcissistic ensnarement, but that is a different tale.
Hello HG, I posted a comment with some personal observations to this article on April 13th, it does not seem to have appeared here. WordPress is not giving feedback anymore as it used to, and I am just wondering if it got through alright. If it has and the comment is still in moderation than that is fine of course. It was a rather long post and I know you’re busy, so I appreciate if it may take longer to moderate. If the comment has gotten lost in cyberspace though, I would like to repost it.
Thanks in advance for looking into this.
Hello Emma, I have checked and there is no comment from you on April 13th, it appears to have not gone through.
Thanks for getting back HG, I am going to re-post my comment.
As a website feedback: Using google chrome to make comments on the blog seems to be broken now, I don’t know if it is just in my case. I am now using a different browser.
Until anyone dies you will be mine and I forever will come back and hoover you…You are forever mine…I think HG meant that…Am I wrong HG?
Plus no matter what you do, you will never last in the throne, but still you will be mine for me to abuse you whenever needed…You will forever be mine and as I am the king, and I decide what type of souece and when you can be a queen by extracting your precious fuel again and again, but I will never change..It will never ladt or be right again…You never decide IPPS, I forever do…Yes or No???🤣🙄j
*source
*last
Sorry…I am hispanic and don’t write as well in English🙈
No, you are not wrong.
Beautifully written
The last line reminds me of of all the times I’ve been told
‘Even when I’m wrong I’m right’…..
And it really doesn’t matter if I’m wrong I’m right
Where I belong I’m right
Where I belong.
– Beatles
Sayings and lines he steals and uses as his own….At least I know the source of this one. Thank you Violetta lol.
I don’t know if he’s familiar with this particular song, though it is off the iconic Sgt. Pepper. Maybe it’s just that the Beatles managed to say almost everything at some point.
He has a repertoire I am all too familiar with now. There is that one. Along with
‘Rome wasn’t built in a day…… but that’s because I wasn’t on that particular job’
‘I’m not saying I’m the best, but I’m in the top one’
He isn’t shy about using these in any situations/settings either . He uses them at work on a regular basis ….All stored in his memory bank.
No doubt he heard it, and it appealled.
Beautifully written, HG! Love this one💔
Thank you.
She escaped and you need for her to come to hurt her more…
as always beautifully written HG.
Thank you.
“And I must be right.” And there it is…
Thank you for this well timed post. It took me 2 reads to fully understand that you don’t miss the person you describe at all, although its beautifully dressed. What a mind spin for her, if she reads that – I hope she doesn’t.
Correct and you are welcome.
CL-E, Do you mind if I ask how you came to that conclusion? I’ve read this many many times. I know that HG doesn’t miss the person described, but only because I know what he is. I cant see it in what is written though and I’m curious to know what I’m missing.
Mercy, I’m on to this as well… interesting answer.
I have read it again and again today…
In my opinion, this is about “the girl”
I will discuss it in the forum with you.
He is just playing with our minds 🙂
Haha ZB, when I saw this come up last night I thought of you. I think Forever Wrong will haunt us forever! I will check the forum.
It is in moderation (long story!)
Yes Mercy, this will always and forever remind me of you 🙂 and our quest
Indeed it is and I am reading it most carefully, it is an impressive endeavour, that much is already clear.
HG, the anticipation is killing me!
Mercy, I can’t answer for CL- E but this paragraph made me think that it wasn’t really about missing the person but about missing the dynamic and manipulating the person:
“ Come back to me because for all that I have done and for all that I am about to do, without you I will sit forever wrong upon the throne.”
MonnyPino, thank you for your reply. I am not sure I see the same thing you see in that sentence. What is you opinion on the meaning of “forever wrong upon the throne”?
I think the average person without knowledge of what HG is would read this and think its just a beautifully written piece about a man remembering a relationship. We know that’s not the case. I went back and read all of the archives on this one recently trying to get a better understanding. I noticed a few times you mentioned that it sounds like HG is talking about Karen. I had the same feeling because of other things he has written. Regardless I love this one.
Hello Mercy,
That paragraph signals to me that HG doesn’t really miss the subject of the article because I ask myself why do I miss someone who is gone? I usually miss their sense of humor, their kindness, their smile, our laughter together etc. I miss that person because of the beauty I see in that person. Not for “all that I have done and for all that I am about to do.” My relationships with people is not about what I do. It’s about my experiences with them. Being with narcissists almost my whole life, I feel that ‘doing’ for them is a means of control. I also remember HG being asked maybe more than one time if narcissists or if he himself miss a former supply and I can’t remember the exact words but I believe that he said he misses the fuel and residual benefits. I believe that each supply provides unique fuel to narcissists owing to the unique traits each person has. Basically unique flavors. And sometimes he might miss one flavor. Just like I could miss something salty after eating something sweet. But this is my opinion. And just like my favorite art, it has so many different interpretations by “experts” but the reality is nobody really knows for sure because the artist never explained. I just know that I love it.
MommyPino, I agree about the different interpretations. That’s why I asked, I like to hear other peoples perspective. Thank you for sharing and I agree, when I think of past relationships I also think about what it is about them that I miss. The things that drew me to them in the first place.
Also Mercy, what has he done? Why is she gone? And what are those things that he is about to do if she comes back.
Personally I feel that some of the articles that HG wrote like this one might be a combination of what happened to him and also a general statement regarding the nature of narcissists. We all know that when we reinstate relationships with narcissists they end up doing the same things that they did to us before. Just my two cents.
“Come back to me because for all that I have done and for all that I am about to do, without you I will sit forever wrong upon the throne.”
I read that as to convey to her that none of it will mean anything without her, and that would be one smooth and powerful hoover if she could hear or read it.
But of course he has no such sentiment about her. It is about his need. As always.
They’re painted black until the present source goes stale; then a previous one is painted white. Because Vanilla looks less bland once you’re tired of Strawberry.
(I can’t sort a clue on the Forum for shit, but by golly, if HG uses a sense memory about ice cream flavors, weather, the smell of his cologne(s), the significance of a particular DM song, that I’ll retain.)
Mommypino, here’s how I read it:
It seems like what he has done is done and what he is about to do will go as planned, whether she comes back or not.
Without her, however, he is “forever wrong upon the throne,” –“forever,” probably because she is dead, and “wrong” because he is seen as guilty and his act malicious.
With her returned to her place, on the other hand, she would function as a source of redemption and of release from this misjudgment by others.
Lisk thank you for giving your perspective. I didn’t think of it that way and that may be what Mercy was saying. I also agree with NA that it can be a powerful hoover line especially if the victim will interpret it the way you do which is him being interested in redemption.
Mercy reminded me that I thought this was about Karen. I can’t remember why I did but maybe because in the Asylum of the Grotesque HG describes that house which he rarely bring his girlfriends to ever since Karen was gone as his castle. He said that he and Karen had chairs where they sat side by side. I don’t want to add anymore of my thoughts as it would risk spoilers.
I could go with your perspective but I have a hard time believing that he would care about what others believe about him and him having any desire to redeem himself in the eyes of others. He is not a MR and he is highly entitled and not accountable to anyone. Does he want to redeem himself to her? I still have a hard time thinking that he would. Or does he acknowledge that things could have been better and he was capable of better but now it is not possible for that anymore?
Good points all, MP.
Wrong forever upon the throne. I feel like this is more about truth. People have placed him on a throne because of the wrong he has committed. He sits on the throne because they want to believe the facade or the illusion rather than the truth. Exactly like an empath in a relationship with a narcissist that rejects the truth and places the what they want the narcissist to be on a pedestal.
MommyPino, those are the same reasons I thought of Karen. I’ve let that go based on comments in the archives but I believe some of the secrets are hidden within things that have been written about Karen.
You’re welcome Mercy and thank you for asking my perspective as well.
It has been easier for me to understand narcissists by evaluating myself and my Normal husband and comparing them to the Narcissists in my life. I was lucky to have asked them lots of questions and I remember the things they told me and their answers totally affirm the things that HG teaches us. For example, I notice that I am mesmerized with my daughter’s smile regardless even if it is not directed at me. My smile caused my mom irritation if the reason for it is someone else and not her. The phrase “for all that I have done and for all that I am about to do” to me seems like the orientation of the person saying this is it is all about him or her and not really about the person that is gone. When you miss a friend or loved one you think about the things that drew you to them but also the feelings from the things you did ‘together’. Not what you did that impressed him and made him realize you are an awesome cook or an expert at something or well travelled etc. Or what you did that made the person cry because you meant so much to that person. Our orientation from them is basically really different so we cannot make a mistake of thinking that our narcissists miss us the same way we miss people.
“ They’re painted black until the present source goes stale; then a previous one is painted white. Because Vanilla looks less bland once you’re tired of Strawberry.”
Violetta I believe that you are totally correct.
Mercy, I see what you are getting at. I got the same impression as CLE, but perhaps that it’s a given, knowing the person who is writing it. I did think paragraphs 7,8,9 aludes to the last paragraph.
Having said that though, I think the title could be misleading to the reader also. Since when does an Ultra admit to being “wrong”.
Hello Mercy – Recognition mostly… but also because he doesn’t say anything about her at all – it’s so richly worded in terms of his feelings and thoughts and so beautifully put… You could read many things into it and we do.. and I did, with my husband and so I just recognise the style of it from him, Gareth.
Claire
Why with your knowledge and insight would you choose such a lonely, empty life? I wish you peace and contentment, it would be nice if you can find it one day.
It is not empty to me. I am set apart from others. This is what I am and this is what works. Thank you for the sentiment in your comment.
Thank you H.G. my sentiments too.
What was your wifes name again? Do you really talk aloud to yourself? 😁
This is true..forever wrong you will sit on your pitiful throne. While I Create for myself not only a new throne but a whole new throne room for me and it to sit in. Let that cool breeze flow across you cold dead skin…my glowing warm hands and light from within are still the same. You see, my Throne and throne room are made in Divine proportions just as the Creator would have it; and well, quite simply put, there’s no room for you but take comfort in knowing I am wrapped in warmth, comfort and a softness similar to the belly of a Porcupine. Anyone thinking they can enter my sanctuary meet an unwelcome prick.
The secret message is “Be sure to drink your Ovaltine.” Now please hurry up: your brother needs to go.
Almost poetic 😊