Hoovering by the Parental Narcissist

 

HOOVERING-BY-THE-PARENTAL-NARCISSIST

Whilst many people experience our kind in the context of the romantic relationship, there are also many people whose experience of the narcissistic dynamic arises from their relationship with a parent. Naturally, nobody recognises at first blush that they have a narcissistic parent. When somebody is a child, they have nothing to benchmark it against and invariably it is usually the case that enlightenment only arises once the child has become an adult.

Sometimes it takes that person to become entangled with a narcissist in a romantic relationship before they are awakened to the fact that they have so been entangled. As part of their enlightenment as to the fact that one of our kind ensnared them through the auspices of a romantic relationship, the individual then also realises that one (or possibly both) of their parents is a narcissist. It takes the coupling with a narcissist in a romantic sense to bring about that realisation. For others, it is the comparison between their relationship with that parent and how they see the relationship of their friends with their parents, or the relationship between their significant other (who is not a narcissist) and his or her parents, to cause them to question the behaviour of their parent which eventually takes them along the path to discovery.

For my own part, it was not until I was shown by an ex-girlfriend what I was, that I realised that MatriNarc was also of our brethren. It was an unusual moment. On the one hand I now had a label to apply to myself, courtesy of the non-judgemental observations of that informed girlfriend. I was pleased with this label as it enabled me to understand more about what I was, although it was not something I planned on sharing. Yet, as I understood how my behaviours fitted with the model of behaviour to which she had directed me, I also realised that my mother was similar and thus also was one of us. A different type of narcissist, but one nevertheless. Such a revelation admittedly stunned me but I soon buried such thoughts as they served no purpose. There was no point dwelling on what had occurred in the past, that was redundant and only going to take me to a place that I had long since escaped. Instead, I focused on my new understanding and how I should now apply this knowledge to my advantage. Thus, that is what I did as I began my journey post university, entering the world of work (aside from summer jobs and the like) and continuing to ensnare unwitting victims romantically, socially and even through the merest of interactions.

Through this time I sought to exercise my independence from MatriNaric who of course sought to exert it as often as she could. I attended university, like many, away from the place where I grew up and therefore this represented the first weakening of the control that MatriNarc had exerted over me. Of course, those elongated holidays meant a return to the mother ship and her continuing machinations and it was only when I commenced my first position on the career ladder of my chosen profession and with that came the necessity of being based in a city, that I truly started to pull away from her grip.

As you would expect, she would not allow that grip to be relinquished with ease and so it is with all parental narcissists. Just like the viewpoint of the romantic relationship narcissist, the parental narcissist considers that you, his or her child belongs to him or her until death. Indeed, whilst those in a romantic liaison with us may sever the Formal Relationship this is far less likely where the dynamic is between parent and adult child. The adult child feels a sense of obligation borne out of the familial tie. How often have you said,

“She is my mother, I can’t NOT invite her to the christening.”

“I know she can be a pain, but she is my mother after all.”

“He is bound to cause a scene but he is my father and well, it would just feel wrong if he was not there.”

“It will cause too many questions if my dad doesn’t attend.”

Such is the sense of obligation which is imbued by the familial link. The narcissist knows of this sense of obligation and moreover relies on it. That is why there is no seduction between narcissistic parent and child (leaving aside those arrangements where incest arises, which is not the purpose of this article) because the existing familial connection supplants the need for seduction. The victim is already tied to the narcissist through blood and you are never allowed to forget that fact.

This tight binding of victim to narcissist does not end there. The existence of the other parent (usually not a narcissist) also causes the victim to remain exposed and bound to the narcissistic parent. Perhaps some of these comments will be familiar to you?

“I put up with my dad for my mum’s sake.”

“I feel sorry for my dad having to deal with my mum.”

“I only see my dad because I love my mum and want to spend time with her.”

“I do it for my children so they see their grandfather, otherwise I would not bother with my mum.”

Unlike the romantic coupling where, once you realise that this person is an abuser (if you have not worked out that they are one of us) you may well escape and aside from the usual concerns and vulnerabilities which come with the empathic victim in such an instance, you make good that escape, the familial ensnarement brings with it a collateral consequence; the other parent. Whilst you may consider quite readily abandoning the narcissistic parent, once you have become alive to what he or she is and how this will not change, your planned escape is hampered by the consequential impact on the other parent who is not a narcissist. Like the dedicated platoon which ‘leaves no man behind’, you are also kept in the grip of the narcissistic parent because of your obligations towards your other parent who is not one of our kind. Once again, do not underestimate the narcissist’s knowledge of this sense of obligation. They will be unlikely to realise that they are a narcissist, but they know how to exploit your relationship with the other parent to their advantage.

Whilst devaluation is a frequent occurrence within the dynamic between the parent narcissist and the adult child, discard is fairly rare. The dynamic between parent and child falls into one of three categories:-

 

  1. The adult child is an intimate partner primary source – rare;
  2. The adult child is a non-intimate partner primary source – unusual; or
  3. The adult child is a non-intimate secondary source – common

With most interactions falling into the third category, the adult child will be relied upon as an intermittent, but frequent provider of fuel. The narcissistic parent will also look to gather traits (for instance living through the success of the adult child) and utilise residual benefits (especially as the narcissistic parent ages).

In a non-familial dynamic, the narcissist tends to interact largely with the secondary source victim in benign ways to gain positive fuel, for instance:-

  1. A secondary source who is a friend will be invited to social events and spend time with the narcissist;
  2. A secondary source who is a colleague will also be invited to social events, but will be relied on by virtue of the existing obligation which arises out of the work dynamic;
  3. A secondary source who is also an intimate source will be picked up to use for social events, intimacy, spending time together. For instance, a person the narcissist is having an affair with, a friend with benefits or a dirty little secret.

In those instances the narcissist offers a benign hoover

“Do you fancy going to the pub tonight?”

“I can meet you at the hotel at 3pm this afternoon.”

“I have tickets for that new play, I hope you want to come.”

“I have not seen you in ages, how about lunch?”

“Can we get our heads together to discuss the new project?”

And consequently the victim will almost always respond to this hoover, interact with the narcissist and provide the positive fuel. The narcissist will have a range of secondary sources so the reliance on one particular secondary source is intermittent. This means the positive fuel remains fresh for far, far longer and therefore the golden period can continue for a long time.

With the situation where the narcissist interacts with a familial secondary source, the victim may well be a golden child or a scapegoat. In either instance, the parental narcissist considers there to be an obligation borne out of the familial tie so that the secondary source should not actually need to be hoovered. Since the range of familial secondary sources will be far fewer than secondary sources as a whole, the familial secondary source is EXPECTED to make themselves available for fuel provision et al. Whilst they may no longer live with the parental narcissist this does not matter. The adult child who is a secondary source should attend without prompting to provide fuel to the parental narcissist. For instance, it is expected they will come over for Sunday lunch each week or visit at least once a month for the weekend if they live a distance away. There ought to be weekly, perhaps daily telephone calls/skype/facetime. They expect to be messaged first to be asked how they are, whether they need anything and so forth. If these expected routine events where fuel is provided are not adhered to, then the parental narcissist will deploy a hoover to bring about the interaction and of course the required reaction which provides fuel.

The parental hoover may be benign in nature (which is usually used for the golden child) but also malign. The latter type of hoovers vary to the degree by which malignancy is used. Some may be mild, intending to prick the conscience of the recipient adult child and others especially savage in order to provoke an outraged or alarmed response. The malign parental hoover has one key ingredient ; it invariably causes the child to have to parent the parent. This of course should come as no surprise to the seasoned scholars of the narcissistic dynamic. The parental narcissist remains the vulnerable child which manifests when fuel levels begin to dip and thus the hoover deployed to the adult child is designed to trigger that long-held obligation of the adult child to parent their parent, something they have done for as long as they might care to remember.

It is often the case that a parental narcissist will have given rise to the creation of a child narcissist which in the fullness of time becomes an adult child narcissist. This individual does not escape the demands of the parental narcissist. They still have fuel to provide and most parental narcissists do not know what they are and therefore do not recognise themselves in the adult child narcissist, thus the interaction will continue, often with explosive consequences.

Thus, the parental hoover is a frequently used manipulation which is deployed by the parental narcissist for the purposes of exerting control over the adult child and for the gathering of precious fuel. What do these hoovers look like? There are many of them and here are just a number of examples.

Benign Parental Hoovers

  1. Holding a celebration for the achievements of the golden child;
  2. Wanting the golden child to show what they have done or explain their latest promotion, show their painting etc to both the parents and third parties who have been summoned;
  3. An impromptu BBQ because it is a ‘lovely summer’s day’;
  4. To celebrate the birthday of the golden child;
  5. Wanting to share good news with the golden child;
  6. Seeking the advice of the golden child if they are a specialist in some area – for instance investment advice;
  7. Wanting to effect an introduction to or for the golden child which places the parental narcissist in a good light for being the deal maker;
  8. Identifying a problem and wondering if the golden child might possibly have the time to resolve it for them;
  9. Identifying (or fabricating) a family problem involving triangulation with another relative (usually the scapegoat) and seeking the good office of the golden child to resolve the issue;
  10. Having some spare tickets (which are not spare at all but purposefully bought) which they would like to offer the golden child;
  11. Suggesting a holiday with the golden child

Malign Hoovers

  1. Noting the adult child (“AC”) has not visited and asking when this might happen;
  2. Triangulating the AC with the golden child pointing out how the golden child has visited more often;
  3. Feigning a crisis – the ceiling is leaking, the oven does not work, the neighbours are too noisy and something must be done immediately
  4. Bemoaning the fact nobody comes to see them;
  5. Highlighting how unwell they are;
  6. Pointing out financial difficulties
  7. Disapproving of the AC’s friends, romantic partner
  8. Claiming they never get to see their grandchildren;
  9. Complaining they are only ever used as a child minder for their grandchildren;
  10. Berating the AC for some imagined vice – drugs, drink, gambling etc based on the flimsiest of evidence but declaring that “I only have your best interests at heart”

 

  1. Turning up unannounced and uninvited for the weekend;
  2. Declaring how lonely they are and how “your father never listens”
  3. Moaning about never being able to go anywhere;
  4. Pretending to not understand what a letter means and asking for them to come and help;
  5. Deliberately sabotaging something and using it as a pretext for requiring immediate help and assistance;
  6. Threatening to remove the AC from their will unless they make more of an effort;
  7. Calling early on Christmas Day or their birthday to demand why the AC has not contacted them to wish them Merry Christmas or Happy Birthday;
  8. Frequently referring to the death of people they know and commenting how they won’t be long for this world and then “you will be free of me which is what you want really”.
  9. Throwing in the face of the AC everything they have ever done for the AC from his or her childhood “I wiped your bottom” even though they actually did the bare minimum of parenting;
  10. Utilising frequent sarcasm “I was just calling to let you know I am still alive because after all you have never bothered to call me in three days.”

The adult child is not allowed to lead their own life, to expect the ongoing support of their parent but instead be on call whenever these hoovers are deployed and to respond straight away so that fuel is provided without question or delay.

110 thoughts on “Hoovering by the Parental Narcissist

  1. Earth Goddess says:

    I love this website so much….I’ve received so much validation. Gained so much clarity. This is truly outstanding work! I greatly appreciate your attention to detail and concern for accuracy, HG. I’m genuinely impressed and forever grateful.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  2. Leela says:

    I already noticed as child that something was off with my dad, something was just different in other families. The parents respected their children while I was never asked what I want or what my opinion is. Later I realized that I was not seen and respected as person, I had to do what dad wants otherwise came the heated fury following massive devaluation! I had to be the “perfect child”, I was compared to other children all the time, I got triangulated with other children for “correction”. So, I often heard: “Look at X! Why can´t you be like X?” I realized that I had WAY less freedom than other children. When I didn´t act the way HE wanted, it ignited his fury and I got massively devaluated! Verbal abuse at its best! Another form of “correcting” me was just to withdraw any “love and care” from me. I was painted black then.

    When I became a teenager everything got worse! I was about 16 when I realized that my dad has no respect, no empathy at all!! 🙁 Of course there were MASSIVE boundary violations in order to exhibit control! Of course they said: “It´s only for your best, honey” (yeah! Sure!).

    Later as adult I suffered a lot from how my father treated me. And: I started to google. I wanted to know WHY my dad has no empathy at all and WHY it was so important to him that I always look “perfect”, always “behave in a perfect manner”, why I always have to be “perfect”, why I am not just accepted the way I am, why he NEVER cared about my views and feelings and how I am. Well: There it is!

    As for me: I notice some narcissistic behaviors on me. I crave attention, I enjoy “fuel” a lot, I wanna look “perfect”, I wanna be “perfect”, I get very angry when someone praises another person, he/she should praise ME!! I used to smug over people who didn´t look so good or were not as educated as I am. I felt power and got arrogant when I could say: “I look better than her” or “I´m smarter than him/her”. On the other hand: I feel ashamed of those thoughts and I am definitely an empath. I´m a very caring person.

    Guess I´m a kind of a “hybrid”? 😀 😀

  3. HealingFromNarcAbuse says:

    My experience with two narcissistic parents is hard for me to understand sometimes. My narc mother was the worst of the two as far as temper goes so I’m going to assume since she beat me and my sister horribly that she may be of the lower level type of narcissist. She’s very cunning though and only showed her temper to those that were her victims and certain family members of hers. Since she didn’t show it to every one I’m assuming that maybe she is more of the middle range or lower middle range. She controls my father and uses him and others to do her dirty work for her. She always looks like the good person to others who don’t know what she is like. He is more overt, like our president, and doesn’t hide his true self. He has always talked about sex with animals and will talk about it with men, in front of his children, etc. He married my mother when she was 14 and he was 26. My mother was 16 when she had me. I have been told recently by my therapist that he is a pedophile.

    He never beat my sister or me but instead used other methods of abuse including his constant victim mentality, etc. There were a lot of strange sexual overtones towards me by my father. My mother on the other hand would call my sister, who was the golden child, a whore. My mother never called me that although I was the scapegoat. Instead she encouraged me to have sex with people all the time. My mother talked to me even as a young child about sexual matters and talked about every one’s sex life including her mother’s and father’s. My therapist told me that my narcissistic mother pushed me to have sex with other men so that I would not with my father. That is a hard sentence to write because it is beyond nauseating to me to even think of it.

    My mother told me sexual things that no child should ever have to hear. My sister told me that never happened with her. I know that narcissists parentify their children because I was always every one’s parent including my sister’s. I was also their sex therapist, etc. I know my mother called my sister a whore because she was projecting herself on to my sister but could never understand why she was always encouraging me to have sex, always telling me that certain boyfriends were gay, impotent, etc. I knew she was trying to see if I had sex with them and that was her way of finding out but I would never answer her because it was so strange and unsettling to me for a mother to say such things to their daughter.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      HFNA

      That is a lot to deal with. I understand your being forced to be the parent and the revulsion of anything sexual. It can feel very isolating in that it’s not something people are comfortable discussing even with someone trusted (my husband of 30 yrs still does not know of many things), so I’m glad you have been able to get some of it out with your therapist and you are certainly safe to discuss it here to whatever extent you feel comfortable. Do you still have contact with your parents? If you would rather not reply I certainly understand. I just want you to know that you are not alone in what you’ve had to deal with, and I’m sure that you know this but I’ll say it anyway: You were victim to your environment and did nothing wrong. Any shame is not yours to carry. Do not question or measure your worth because you were unfortunate in being gifted to people too ill to acknowledge or validate it.

      1. HealingFromNarcAbuse says:

        NarcAngel,

        Thank you for your kind words. I am no contact with both narcissistic parents. I left no contact only to attend my late sister’s funeral a little over 2 years ago and went immediately back to no contact after her funeral. My sister and I had reunited after being triangulated for many, many years. We both were no contact with our parents but my sister’s only child is loyal to them. Thankfully my children detest my parents so they were not able to turn them against me and my husband. I refused to sit with them or go to their home after the funeral because I knew she wanted it to look “good” and if I had gone it would give her the facade of us being a loving family. Both parents had just told my sister and I through a letter before she died that only ONE of us would inherit and to choose which one it would be.

        My sister and I were loyal to each other. Now that she’s gone I still will remain as I was before she and I reunited, no contact with our parents. I have known for quite awhile that my parents were narcissists, but I’ve discovered a lot in therapy that has helped and also revealed more things that I didn’t realize. Both my sister and I had called our father a pedophile while talking with each other only the last years of her life, but when my therapist told me recently that he was one without me even asking or hinting, it was overwhelming.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          HFNA
          I’m sorry to hear about your sister but glad that you reunited and had a chance to air things and support each other before she passed. It’s no easy feat to go no contact with your parents due to societal pressure, so good for you for not letting that deter you and for holding to what is best for you.

          1. HealingFromNarcAbuse says:

            NA,
            You are right, it is very difficult for people who have not had one or two narcissistic parents to understand why we would go no contact with them. Yes, I’m very thankful for the time that my sister and I had to reconnect and become friends. Our parents chased her, of course, since she was still being triangulated with her own child but she stayed no contact until the day she died. She told me it was the best time of her life without them in it.

            My therapist tells me often that you have to be a very strong person to stay no contact with your parents so a big shout out to all of us that are.

      2. Anm says:

        NA,
        I have a question about children of narcissist. Yes, any one can answer as well. We live in AZ. So it has been about 108°F here. So my daughter and I have been taking nightly swims in the pool to relax and cool off at night. I taught her about wishing apon the first star you see every night. Every night, her wish is, “I wish my dad will start being nice”. The first few times, she did this, I just changed the subject, now I am concerned that she is being trauma bonded to him, and is excessively thinking about him. I started asking, “ok. pick a second wish.” And I try to get her mind to wish for things outside of narcissist approval. Is it a bad idea to try to get her to not think about him, or talk about him, especially since she is already voicing that he is cruel to her? There is nothing that I can legally do with the comments she makes about him, so there is no need for me to encourage her to talk about him either.

        1. Fiddleress says:

          Anm
          Your question struck a chord in me. I had a daughter with a narcissist. She came of age recently. Although she was under six when I separated from him, she continued to see her father, and even if she didn’t complain about him, to this day I have no idea if letting her see him was such a good idea. I had no legal reason to make her stop, and was all for giving the father his ‘rightful’ place, but I still wonder.

          My first reaction (but it is just my personal view) would be to think that she wants to speak about it/him, and I would try to encourage her to expand, only once, while remaining as neutral and detached as possible. If he is cruel to her, would you have any legal means to arrange for her to meet him (if that bond is to be kept) in a safe environment? Either with another family member present, or in the presence of a familial counsellor (not sure what you call them)? We can do this, where I live.

          But I would pay heed to what she is trying to say, as she is doing so repeatedly. It may be important for her to express how she feels.
          My heart goes out to you both. Hope others can give you sound advice, as it cuts close to the bone with me, but I am talking hindsight.

          1. Anm says:

            Fiddleress, Thank you! Thank you! She doesn’t actually have a real bond/attachment with him. About a year or so ago, my judge assigned a social worker, not a psychologist to do a family evaluation on us. It was awful, and the lady wasn’t qualified to do the evaluation. One of the days that she evaluated us, she made us go into a room with a bunch of children toys, and she told us all to “play and get along”. The room had a bunch of two sided mirrors were her and i believe her supervisor was watching us. That day spoke volumes about everything. I would ask my daughter what she wanted to play, and then I would get on the floor to play with her. I would occasionally tell my daughter to do something like try throwing the ball to your dad. She would yell “no!!!”. And I would tell her, “The lady said everyone had to play today, so that’s the rules.” Even though my daughter was only about 3 years old, the narcissist actually tried to claim I had been engaging in Parental Alienation behaviors, which are actually tactics narcissist do to their children. But the evaluator said that while she was evaluating my daughters father, he would give me hostile looks, roll his eyes at me, and pretend not to hear me if I spoke to him. They actually gave him more parenting time to see if he could establish a proper bond, and a year later, it hasn’t changed. When I say trauma bond, I think during this past year, he has caused so much chaos around her, that when she is in my peaceful environment, she still thinks about what goes on over there. My ultimate goal, is to relocate a few hours away with my daughter. I can co-parent with my son’s mid-range father, but my daughters father is so destructive, and nothing good can come from us living near him for the rest of her childhood.

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Anm, I think I know how you feel. It’s a shame that you had to deal with an incompetent social worker.
            That’s hard if the father has already pretended that you had engaged in Parental Alienation. I heard a judge here who was very much aware of narcissism and how those parents behave, say that judges should always be wary of such claims (Parental Alienation), as very often the (non-N) parent is simply trying to protect the child. I hope you can find one such judge as your daughter’s father might try this again when you move away – but this idea, to move away seems good, as hopefully he would get to spend less time with her, and it looks like your best bet and the best chance for her to be more often at peace.
            You sound like such a lovely mum, and person. It is a real battle, and you will need all the courage that you have.
            All the best to you, Anm.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Hi Anm
          I honestly don’t know the best course of action there. I can only tell you my first thoughts after reading your comment:

          That’s a good idea to let her express it with no comment from you other than to ask for a second wish.

          If she persists in stating the same thing maybe ask: what could he do to start being nice?

          Maybe it’s time to change up that game. Maybe we should tell children to tell the star something they know, or something they want to see/have in their life instead of wishing. It’s a small thing but maybe we can get them to verbalize what thoughts they have and to focus more on actionable things rather than wishing. To open discussion on how to achieve those things instead of dependence on an outside force such as wishing encourages.

          I realize you are just playing an age old game with your daughter Anm so it is not a judgement on that. These were just honestly the thoughts I had one after the other and immediately.

    2. Fiddleress says:

      HFNA
      When I first read what you wrote, it made me very sad indeed for you, and I didn’t feel that I could say anything worthwhile. So all I will say is that you have all my support in your NC with your parents. And I agree that it is frowned upon by society, but true friends understand.

      My mother is a narc, and she often called me a whore, a slut, and other such fun names, from when I was eight years old. Must be a specialty of N mothers.
      It took me forty bloody years of my life to go NC with my parents (my father being a collateral victim of this, but he always sided with her – not that he had a choice from his perspective: I think he is an empath, and there was no HG around to tell him better, back then!). My brother (I only have one sibling) also went NC with them, before me. It has been over ten years now, and I do not intend to breach NC, ever.

      As for what you wrote: “My therapist tells me often that you have to be a very strong person to stay no contact with your parents so a big shout out to all of us that are.”, this made my day, thank you!

      1. HealingFromNarcAbuse says:

        Fiddleress,
        I’m glad you replied; thank you for doing so. Yes, I definitely think it’s a narcissistic mother thing to call her daughters, whore. I’m so sorry you had to endure that. It really affected my sister her entire life. I got called “selfish” all the time. My sweet sister told me that I was the least selfish person she knew and that meant the world to me. I told her that our mother had been projecting her own attributes on to my sister by calling her whore. I’m the one who told her what our parents were (scapegoat here).

        Like you, I didn’t realize what I was dealing with and didn’t go low contact/no contact until I was in my 40’s. I will never forget reading all the characteristics of narcissists online and checking off every single one with both of my parents. I think I have read on this site that it’s rare for two narcissists to marry but both of mine definitely are. My mother is the more dominant one though and she is the one I was most afraid of.

        I will also never return to contact with my parents as I have zero desire to deal with them ever again. I’m so glad that my therapist’s comment made your day. She is right, it’s an incredibly hard thing to do to make that split from your parents. You know the saying, “You only have one set of parents”.
        I think it’s somewhat different from walking away from a romantic involvement with a narcissist as you can always find another romantic partner, but you only get one set of parents. It’s very difficult to walk away and not feel guilt and that familial pull to want to belong to a family, even if it’s highly abusive and dysfunctional. I’m sure it’s all that emotional thinking we have. My parents have hoovered me by letters (only way they could reach me since I blocked them everywhere else) but I don’t respond and pretend that I never got them. They ignore me now which is great, but I know from reading on here that they may hoover again even if it’s many years from now. They will still get nothing but crickets, LOL!

        1. Fiddleress says:

          Thank you for your reply, HFNA.
          I guess it is true for me also, like for your sister, that my mother’s insults have affected my life.
          It is good to see that you had such a good relationship with your sister.
          You must be extra strong if you can receive the letters from your parents and ignore them. When my mother could still send me letters, I could not open them as they gave me panic attacks, and I had a lawyer deal with the letters (my mother tried to sue me over forbidding her to see my daughter, whom she had managed to pit against me, and after one unsavoury episode that motivated my move).
          I have moved houses since going NC with my parents, so they cannot contact me. I still get hoovers by proxy: my mother phones my son (who is 25, and a normal), but he dislikes them profoundly and says nothing about me. Only that everything is always fine. I don’t know why he still takes her calls, though. They don’t bother him in the least (he decided when he was eight that he didn’t like them, quite a while before I went no-contact with them).

          It is interesting what you say about scapegoats. I don’t know where I stood. Apparently, my mother was glad I was a girl because she had wanted to have a daughter, ‘to play dolls’ as she put it! She never abused my brother so obviously. He was a sickly child and I remember feeling jealous of him when I was about 7, because she focused ‘positively’ on him, and he was always allowed everything I was not. He is four years younger than me.
          I have a good relationship with my brother. We are the two outcasts of the family – as you say, the pull to want to belong to a family is strong, and mine has been torn apart completely.
          I am lucky in that I have some genuine friends. They have largely replaced my family.

          I have wondered whether I would attend my father’s funeral if he dies before my mother, as I cannot countenance seeing her ever again.
          What surprises me the most is that lately, I have felt that I bear a grudge against my mother, when I thought I had forgiven her. I never bear grudges against anyone, she is the only one. And I know it is not her fault, she could not do otherwise. She herself had an abusive father – I would say a Lesser Narc: he arranged to marry my grandmother within three weeks of meeting her, drank, had numerous mistresses, was very good looking, was violent, tried to strangle my grandmother, and was very provocative. My mother was a golden child.
          I also agree that walking away from your parents is harder than walking out of a romantic involvement. Well, it was true for me. My mother used the phrase “you only have one mother” extensively.

          You seem to have a good husband, so I am very pleased for you. I had a child with a narc, but he was so unlike my mother that it took me years to start thinking he might be one, and it has just been confirmed to me by HG that that man was a narcissist. However, I met another narc last year but after 4 months it hit me when I realised: “He talks like my mother!”. It still took me another 3 months to escape, because I was hooked, but that relationship only really lasted for about 7 months in all. And then I found narcsite just at the right moment.

          Talking of hoovers: my daughter’s father has been hoovering me lately, after 10 years of ignoring me, so yes, you never know!
          And here’s another one down the drain of no-contact.

    3. Anm says:

      Healingfromnarcabuse,
      Thank you for sharing with us about your childhood.

  4. hopeless says:

    Hi,

    I believe one of my parents is a narcissist along with my older sibling. It has been addressed several times that a narcissist parent will choose a “Golden Child” and then scapegoat another child.

    Is there ever the situation where the “Golden Child” *isn’t* the one that’s successful, but on that is seen as “sick”, or “helpless”, or “needing more attention”, while the other child is basically ignored?

    Is this a possible dynamic?

    Thanks,

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, it is. Being successful from the majority perspective will not always accord with the idea of success from the narcissistic perspective. Furthermore, that success may well threaten the narcissists control and is therefore rejected through triangulation and scapegoating.

      1. hopeless says:

        Thank you, HG. There’s not a lot of material out there for this type of situation so I appreciate your insights.

        Hmmmm…. so having someone dependent on your money, lodging, resources, etc., can be a preferred situation in the eyes of a certain type of narcissist. This dependent person would be guaranteed fuel while the more dependent child would be seen as less consistent fuel appliance.

        Apologies for thinking out loud. I’m trying to understand the dynamics and interactions and how it all fits together.

        Your patience is appreciated.

        Cheers,

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I recommend that you organise a consultation so I can give you the required detail on this matter.

        2. lisk says:

          hopeless,

          Did you mean to say the more *independent* child would be the less consistent fuel appliance?

          1. hopeless says:

            Hi Lisk!

            Yes, if I’m reading HG correctly, in such a situation, the more *independent* child would be less of a fuel source. If the goal of the narcissist is control and fuel, creating a dependent child would guarantee (in this situation) to have an almost supply of fuel.

            Independence brings freedom and the narcissistic parent wouldn’t be able to guarantee and independent child wouldn’t leave, thus taking their fuel with them.

            I never looked at it this way before but it makes sense. I’m in this situation and it makes a lot of sense to me. I hope I’m explaining this clearly.

            🙂

          2. hopeless says:

            Sorry for my typos folks. One hand is in a wrist brace and right now I’m just hunting and pecking. Autocorrect is also not helpful 🙁

          3. Violetta says:

            Hopeless:

            Carpal tunnel?

  5. HealingFromNarcAbuse says:

    I am the scapegoat of two narc parents, a covert mother and an overt father. I am no contact with both of them and pretty much walked away from most family members as well due to dysfunction. My mother has always been obsessed with talking about sex with me, even from childhood. She discussed every one’s sex life including her own. She loved to call my late sister a whore but yet kept telling me I needed to sleep around with people. It took me until I was in my 40’s to learn what both parents are and that is when I finally escaped. They have made sure that I never inherit anything and they are instead leaving everything to my late sister’s only child who is the golden child.

    My sister and I were estranged for years due to our parents triangulating us but reunited shortly before she died. We both were no contact with our parents. They triangulated her and her child as well so when my sister went no contact they chased after her so that they could continue the triangulation. I wasn’t as valuable to them anymore since they couldn’t control me and were unsuccessful in triangulating my children who despise them both. Thanks for all the information you share with us HG, I could identify with so many of the various negative hoovers you mentioned but since I am of no use to them and not involved in their power plays (I have no contact with my niece) they no longer contact me, which is more than fine with me.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome HFNA and thank you for sharing your observations.

  6. casleighmay says:

    Perfect timing for this article for me, HG. Thank you. Although I escaped my narcissist mother and grandmother by literally changing my home address, workplace and phone number I still carry the guilt that I left. Why? Because they were family. I am still searching for a way to deal with that but I will get there by learning everything you teach so well.

    1. Healing says:

      I know you asked HG but wanted to add my two cents worth. I think that we carry guilt because we were taught by our narcissistic parents to take blame for everything that was “wrong” in the family, especially if we were the scapegoat. In their eyes they can do no wrong so some one has to take the blame. We also feel guilty because we imagine ourselves in their shoes and how we would feel if our children did that to us. In other words, we can imagine how painful it would be for “normal” parents to lose contact with the children they love so we put ourselves in our narcissistic parents position and probably imagine how we think they would feel. Of course they don’t feel like “normal” parents do so it’s guilt we shouldn’t feel.

  7. Kim e says:

    HG
    Would a N who is an adult remember when their parent did this to them? Would it cause an AHA moment? I know youremeber things matrinarc did to you but you are more evolved then say a MRN

    1. HG Tudor says:

      When you say an “aha” moment, Kim, what do you mean, realisation that they had involvement with a narcissist? If so, yes, that can occur.

    2. Supernova DE says:

      Kim e,
      The MMRN I was involved with knew. He never used the word “narcissist” to describe his mother, but he knew that she was the cause of his personality traits. He knew he had trouble with empathy, he knew he was attention seeking.
      He also remembered specific things about his mother, like that she used isolation punishments etc. He also knew she was sneakily controlling toward him even as an adult and could give numerous clear examples.
      Of course, I don’t rule out that all of that was an elaborate pity play, but some of it could have true also lol

      1. Kim e says:

        Super,
        I used to hear “I dont do emotions. But if I did this conversation would have gone differently.”
        I would ask “What would have been different?”
        His reply was “There would have been emotions.”
        Cleared it right up for me. LOL

        1. Narc noob says:

          Kim e, that’s hilarious, ^^. Ha ha!

          Was just reading your exchange with SMH on another thread. Those 2 minute planks are giving me some inspiration 😅

          1. Kim e says:

            NN
            Our planks started out at 30 seconds and we were going to work our way up to 2 minutes.
            Somewhere along the line the HG person interjected and challened us to a plank the length of a sone…the group and name escapes me..that was 8 minutes long. We really set no time as to when we would do this and then the whole thing as they say fell off the track.
            I have worked my way back up to 40 seconds…LOL and have my alarm set for every 2 hours from 8 – 6 to stop what I am doing and do a plank.
            Good luck.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            High Hopes by Pink Floyd (album version, not single edit or Echoes version).

          3. Kim e says:

            I knew you would remember!!!!

  8. Supernova DE says:

    Two questions HG if you don’t mind:
    1. Do some narcs utilize a “stepford” situation with their children? Meaning they are treated well but absolutely expected to be the best, smartest, and prettiest? Would this be more common with upper mid rangers and greaters also?
    2. Would it be possible in a narc/co-d dynamic that the narc is so absent from the children’s lives that it is actually the Co-D parent who does the most mental harm to the kids? I suspect my mother was so distracted and absorbed by her marriage that it explains her emotional neglect of me. My father never never devalued me, he was mainly just not around.

    Thank you so much

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes and yes.
      2. The parental victim of the narcissist may well have their parenting abilities affected and sometimes considerably so, because of the behaviour of the narcissist towards them. The narcissist thus indirectly harms the children.

      1. Supernova DE says:

        Thank you HG, I appreciate you taking the time.
        One of these days I’ll put my father through the narc detector to figure all this out for once and for all.

  9. FYC says:

    Lorelei, Thank you for your kindness. Yes I have one N parent and N siblings. When I look back on it all, I just feel sad for them and for the whole situation. I am so grateful to be free of all that and I wish them well, but I know first hand Ns never give up their defense. I did not have any physical/sexual abuse, just the psychological kind, so my heart goes out to all who endured that on top of the manipulations. As for cognitive dissonance, you are correct, it is the inability to square the good with the bad. They are incongruent. Add some intermittent reinforcement and it is a powerful cocktail of confusion and frustration. Lorelei, have you ever listened to Zero Impact? I think you would really appreciate it too. I was happy to read you did not get Covid19 and are better. I hope all is okay at work for you too. Stay safe!

    1. Lorelei says:

      FYC—I feel sad for my father more than anything. I had to buy flowers for my mother’s grave as I am headed to visit next week. I looked at the flowers and had guilt for not getting him some. It is complete and total sadness. In their wedding photo I see such a good looking young couple—and to know the darkness his disorder allowed.. I have no clue how my siblings and the grandchildren & my kids are not narcissists. Everyone is generally high functioning and honorable. (Even me—I’m really not a whack job in my life—I’m actually regarded as uptight by some) Saying just the psychological abuse though diminishes the abuse in a way—I’ve had all of it and the psychological abuse is the most pervasive. It’s constant FYC. Even when treated well it is the creation of contrast so it isn’t really ever a reprieve. The sexual abuse was horrible, but—the psychological abuse was what stomped me. I’ve listened to zero impact. I’m at the point my ex doesn’t bother me. He could walk in the front door and act like a jerk and it wouldn’t phase me. I’d walk off. Honestly. I’m sure there is value in hearing it for different application at this point.
      Thank you re, not having COVID—It makes me anxious because I always need inhalers if I get sick. I am doing a 9 mile hike today so feel much better.

      1. FYC says:

        Lorelei, I understand. It is always what lies beneath that matters most. Both for that person, and for all the others around them. Just goes to show that a handsome or beautiful face can belie what lies beneath, yet many, even most, only see the surface. I am sorry you have endured so much abuse in your life. You are a study in resilience and strength. As for Zero Impact, the principles therein are very important for Es, not only in respect to Ns, but also to ourselves. It’s not about caring so much as it is about our choices. Sounds to me like you have made some good choices since you’ve been here on KTN and I see you making progress even in how you deal with Ns at work. Well done. RE Covid, you certainly do need to be extra careful, but I know you will be and I am happy you are off for a fantastic hike. I love hiking. Enjoy!

        1. Lorelei says:

          Thanks FYC. I’m headed off soon as I was up all night and had to sleep. It’s somewhat chilly and rainy on & off so my kids won’t go. No worries on the abuse—I don’t have a sense of shame like when it was happening because I never created it. I can easily discuss the matter if it helps another person. It actually irks me when HG has said narcs use revelations of abuse against people. How disgusting. They didn’t perpetrate themselves! It’s a twisted exploit on shame and I just don’t have it since I’ve parented small children, not in the same way. Narcs basically project their own inadequacies onto others to absolve their own shame. (The casual cruelty transfers any vulnerability they have—or at least in my mind I view it that way) When I had kids I could see the vulnerability and was able to apply logic in this regard to myself. It doesn’t mean there isn’t a deep sadness/traumatic “reference” at times—but it’s not something children do to be ashamed of. I remember having to protect my oldest from my father’s behavior. Always making sure she didn’t run off to a room where he was etc. It was processed as naturally in my mind as tying my shoe. He even gave her $100 bills on a few occasions because he said she was “the good one.” Triangulation with a disguise of generosity. It’s what he did to me. New car, clothing, pay off my credit card, as the favorite I felt special. It led to dating a man in college that kept up the princess promotion. (a successful and clear UL type A) The pattern (my pattern) went on into auto pilot.. Anyway—it’s been an education for sure. Thank you.

          1. FYC says:

            Lorelei, you are a very strong person who has risen above her circumstances again and again. You protect your own children and you love them. You are willing to revisit the unthinkable if it helps another. You give of yourself and help others in your profession. All of this is admirable and remarkable.

            I agree no victim is deserving of any shame, whether internal or external. The abuse was an external act that usurped your right to safety and protection by the very person/people that your brain is hard-wired to trust the most. Absolutely heinous, wrong and despicable.

            Lorelei, you have no doubt paid a significant price for your ‘education’ by your parents. Yet through your strength, perseverance and continued learning here on KTN, you are making a great difference in the lives you touch. Well done.

  10. Renarde says:

    And…Hg dipped into my brain again!

    Having two narc parents was a sheer joy! A lot of the Hoovers have been deployed against me. At some point. Mum was a rum un. Shed absent herself when PN was in one of his frequent temper tantrums. Kitchen or bedroom

    Now that they are old and heaven only knows why PN is still alive, bro and I have been having ‘The Talk’. Its likely he will go before her which is going to leave her in a financial pickle.

    Not that she appreciates it. The thought of mum having to go through the legalise of Probate does make me laugh.

    There is no will. Even though I am being repeatedly threated with disinheritence. Mum will come to me and I’m precisely where I wish to be.

    She will be ok. Shes like a child. So easy to control. Not a burden to live with her.

    Mum will be obsessed by what goes in my vagina of course. Too bad. Oh and bro is coming around to my way of thinking. PN is not his father. Now he knows Mum lies to him. DNA test next, I think.

    I once had the only deep and meaningful with Mum. She was so repressed growing up. I never got The Education. That was left to others. So I say, one day, ‘How was Dad?’ You know. ‘Rubbish. Lousy.’ Bloody hell! But we are presented with the reality we are confronted with. So how EXACTLY did she know unless there was another?

    Then I asked, ‘Ever had an orgasm, mum?’

    She kind of semi-snorted at me and said ‘Of course! You are here!’

    Mum really is that stupid

    1. Anm says:

      Renarde,
      Maybe you will find out a lot about your mom when your father passes away. I’m really protective of my children. My almost 10 year old son found out what a Strip Club was the other day from some tv show he was watching. He came to me and started talking about strip clubs. I was like, “Son, what’s a Strip Club?” After him explaining, I said, “oh, maybe I should fill out an application, and get a job at one of those places.” He started busting up laughing, was like, “mom, stay away from those places. No one will pay to see you dance almost nude.” I was like, “stay away from whatever you are watching, because I will be monitoring what you watch even more so from now on.”
      Jokes on him, I was a professionally trained dancer, and was a stripper on the side, in my early-mid twenties. All of that will be revealed to him at an appropriate time. Right now isn’t a good time for that.

      1. Witch says:

        My mum would have straight up told me she was a stripper if she could turn it into a victimhood situation lol she has little care about age appropriate information.
        As kids she basically told my sister and I that our aunty (her sister) used to sleep around a lot as a teenager. We needed to know this, why???

        1. MommyPino says:

          My mom constantly shamed me about sexuality. She accused me of enjoying men’s attention ever since I was a young child even though I didn’t really understand what she was talking about I remember feeling shame and guilt about it. She even used God as a monitoring device to make sure that I am not sinning. And yet, she didn’t mind exposing me to sexually suggestive and sometimes even explicit media. Then when I was in college and she knew that I already learned about sex from school, she started giving me an advice on sex. She said that I should keep my virginity until I’m married and to only marry a certain race because they are better endowed. She also described how my dad was in bed and said that’s what I need to look for.

          1. Witch says:

            @mommypino

            My mum was also “weird” when it came to sex as well.
            She expected us to be virgins until we are married, even though she was doing the ting before she was married.
            I wonder why narc parents are so weird about sex? I know it’s about control but is there more to it? HG, please?

          2. mommypino says:

            Witch, so true about their weirdness about sex. My mom was Victim Middle Lesser but sex still seemed like a lingering part of her persona even though she was not Somatic. She also liked to tell people about sexual activities of other people, especially women to smear them. Her biggest criticism is ‘white’ and even I was called that by her many many times. I think that narcissists tend to hate women and female narcissists hate fellow women. We are extensions of our parents so they make sure that they are raising women that are ‘respectable’ (in their misogynistic point of view). At the same time they need fuel and residual benefits and would use sex to obtain those if they have to and also they lack accountability even from their own standards so we see an incredible inconsistency between what they expect from us and how they behave. My mom’s school also contributes with her weirdness. My Elite MMR sister was very sexually suggestive but in a more tactful way. More similar to Meghan Markle’s style of being sexually suggestive but not exactly the same either.

          3. mommypino says:

            *correction to my typo;
            Her biggest criticism is “whore” not white.

          4. Witch says:

            My mum is a victim but she also depended on her looks and flirtation to get what she wanted because she was very beautiful. But at the same time she would switch personas and act like she was a nun and judge other people on their “lack of morals.”
            It’s just like you said.. they don’t believe the rules should apply to them.

          5. mommypino says:

            Witch, does your mom have somatic traits too? What makes you think that she is a victim even though she’s very beautiful? I’m asking this because I am still figuring out what cadre my older stepdaughter belongs to.

          6. Witch says:

            @mommypino

            I believe my mum is a victim because she uses her mental health to justify her narcissism. She will shout and complain when triggered about how your father treated her like shit, she’s mentally ill, you can do this and that but she can’t because she’s mentally ill, she’s tried to imply that she was feeling suicidal for attention and that you did not ask her how she was.
            She’s lazy. She doesn’t do anything a part from clean and do shopping. She refuses to adapt or solve a problem constructively, instead she allows a problem to linger on so she has something to complain about with other people. Our childhood was hijacked by her childhood and how she was abused and now she’s mentally ill.
            Apart from trying to control us through intimidation she tries to control us through guilt about her being mentally ill and also pity because she’s mentally ill.
            I would imagine that when she goes to any group support sessions, the person leading the group would have to cut her off from talking so other people can speak. Otherwise she would go on and on with watery eyes about how shes mentally ill questioning how this work shop will help her?
            Her somatic traits were there to secure a pregnancy but that’s extremely unlikely to happen now at her age which is probably why she’s given up on men.

          7. mommypino says:

            Thank you for your answer Witch. Your description made things clearer to me. I wasn’t sure if my SD is really somatic or if she is actually a victim because she lacked the promiscuity trait. She enjoys flirting and teasing but I believe that she doesn’t go beyond exhibitionism with her physical appearance. Your mom sounds very similar to my mom except that my mom’s pity play was her lack of beauty and she would never entertain any notion that she was mentally ill in fact, the few times that I asked her if she would consider seeing a psychiatrist just to have counseling she told me to fuck Satan in hell and I also got long tirades about how stupid I am to even think that there is anything wrong with her lol.

          8. Witch says:

            @mommypino
            Forgive me but I laughed at “fuck Satan in hell” because I’m childish.
            Narcs so are dramatic that there’s a thin line between tragedy and comedy with them.
            I’m sad your mum spoke to you that way though. I imagine it was on a regular basis and would have felt very degrading.
            My mum evades responsibility all the time but when she is in “saint mode” she would be the type to suggest we go to therapy together because she doesn’t know what she’s done that’s so bad. “What have I done to you that’s so bad?” Is something she has said.
            The idea of having therapy with my mum made me want to die but I didn’t know why it made me feel that way. But I know now it’s because I would be tripping over my words in her presence trying to explain the crazy making behaviour that didn’t make sense to me at the time and she would be making it out that I’ve misunderstood her intentions and she didn’t “mean it like that.”
            And then I would end up feeling more crazy.
            And because she didn’t beat my arse and leave me with bruises so I could have something tangible to evidence that something was wrong, I did not know how to describe what was happening to me. And if I did speak about it she would manipulate it away.
            Even now sometimes when I try to speak to 2 of my sisters about her, they aren’t fully getting it because they believe that when she does something “good” it comes from the same place as an empath or a normal. They don’t understand that it is fake! But I’m partly to blame because I should just leave it and not talk about it and let things unfold whenever it does. It’s just so frustrating.
            My mum is clever in a sense because what empath is going to feel comfortable questioning an invisible disability? Now I do believe she is co-morbid, but it would not shock me if she also partly fakes her illness so she doesn’t have to work or be emotionally available to others.

          9. mommypino says:

            Actually it is indeed funny Witch. When my mom died, at the funeral I had a lot of honest conversations about my mom with my cousins and aunts and we were all laughing at a lot of the things that she did. We even have a picture where we all had big smiles in front of her casket. Although it doesn’t mean that I wasn’t sad when she died but my grief attacks usually happened when I was alone. She was a Lesser and they can be funny. The three characters from movies that remind me of my mom was the moms from Carrie, The Waterboy and Throw Momma from the Train and they are all very weird characters and that’s how she was. She always got noticed anywhere she went and people always remembered her. For some reason I have grown a thick skin from the way she talked to me but what have really affected me was her many conflicts with other people like our neighbors and my teachers. That may have contributed to my tendencies of trying to be liked and fix conflicts and also my adverse reactions when I see several people against one person. Especially when those conflicts become brawls and seeing your mom get physically attacked by other people was painful. I became her defender and protector as a child.

            Your mom is much more clever that she is able to still keep her facade with your sisters. My husband has the same experience as you with his siblings. His siblings even idolize their dad in some ways and it’s like a different person from the guy that my husband describes to me in his stories. I asked my BIL about their dad and he said that my husband is not telling me the whole story. My husband said that they all saw how their dad was violent to him and their mom but it seems like the good things about him got more retained in their memories. But my husband is a normal so he doesn’t seem to get affected that his siblings do not affirm his stories about their dad.

            My mom is also very lazy like your mom and my mom didn’t work again after she met my dad but my mom never had the manipulative skill to pretend of trying to make anything better. She would never suggest to go to therapy with me and she would not take advice or counsel from anyone even if the advice was coming from kindness. I think there might be a MR component to your mom but I could be totally wrong. My mom had comorbidities too and that’s what made me think at first that she was a Lower Lesser but reading more made me figure out that she was a Middle Lesser and her comorbidities just gave me the impression that she was Lower.

            So true about the crazy making. Narcsite is the only place that those crazy making behaviors are so well articulated and described. I bet that the therapy with her could have been more frustrating for you and you had good instincts to not go at that time. I hope that more psychologists read HG’s works and the knowledge become more mainstream as soon as possible.

          10. mommypino says:

            Witch, my older stepdaughter is weird in a different way. Before I went No Contact from her, my husband was so frustrated with how she dressed up her three year old. She gets these really expensive boutique clothes from an Instagram and a Facebook shops and the styles of the clothing tend to be skimpy and really short and almost slightly sexually suggestive. My husband said that he wish that his daughter would just dress her little daughter like a real child.

          11. mommypino says:

            My stepdaughter is a Mid Ranger.

          12. Witch says:

            @mommypino
            That’s quite shocking to dress her up that way at age 3! I’m not sure the meaning behind that. I do know narcs don’t really take age into account. You look at a 3 year old and see a cute little baby. They don’t see that. They see a thing, a toy. But they know how to act as if they see a cute little baby however their behaviour with the child at times will still be noticeably unusual.
            When I became a teenager I was pretty much a tomboy and even sometimes wore men’s underwear.
            My mum pushed me into wearing shorts skirts and more revealing clothing when turned 15.
            I know it was about control but I’m still not sure why she wanted to control me specifically in that way.

          13. mommypino says:

            Hi Witch,

            My guess is that it’s still because her daughter is an extension of herself.

            My stepdaughters are very proud of their looks. At dinners they often criticized their friends’ appearances and the women in our county. They often said that they are the only beautiful women in our county.

            When I got pregnant they constantly made comments about how they got their beauty from their mom and not their dad and they don’t think that my baby will be anything like them. When my son was born they made comments about how he is not as good looking as them. In their eyes, he is an extension of me so when they criticize him they feel that they are able to assert their superiority over me as well.

            Then she got pregnant and we learned that she was on a diet so that she will not be a fat pregnant woman. My husband was upset because he said she should make sure the baby inside her was getting enough nutrition. Then when she was giving birth she was adamant that she has her doula and her birth is the natural way with no medications because even the way she gives birth is a reflection on her. Then when the baby was born and the baby didn’t turn out to be as cute as they were all expecting she had a very disappointed look. Then we found out from her conversation with her dad that she was also controlling the milk intake of her daughter because she didn’t want to over feed her daughter and have her daughter end up being obese. Her dad was very upset about it too but they insisted that they have a breastfeeding specialist supervising them on that so he has nothing to worry about. And then months later she started complaining that her baby wouldn’t stop crying all day and so her dad yelled at her to feed her baby because she was starving her so she finally stopped controlling the milk intake and just allowed the baby to drink as much milk as she wanted. And it’s the same with the clothes, she wants the baby to look kind of sexy because it is also a reflection on her. Everything is about her. As the baby was growing my husband kept on telling me that the little girl is delayed and he thinks that it’s because of poor nutrition. I thought that maybe the little girl was just different from our son because of their sex but now that my daughter is also three years old, I now agree that her daughter was delayed at that age compared to my daughter now at the same age. My brother in law also asked us if there is something wrong with the little girl. I don’t know if the little girl was able to catch up now.

          14. Supernova DE says:

            MommyPino,
            I have a friend who dresses her two small girls like that too, it’s gross. She also posts tons of pictures of the girls in those outfits on Instagram in ‘candid but obviously planned’ photo ops.
            Those two things alerted me to suspect her to be a narc

            Is your stepdaughter somatic?

          15. mommypino says:

            Supernova DE,
            Most of her traits are somatic except that she only had two boyfriends her whole life. Her second boyfriend is her husband now. She is very beautiful and has an amazing body. When she became an adult she worked at Hooters while she was in college and she modeled for photographers in implied nude photo shoots but never real nude. She also modeled for a year professionally. Her social media has lots of bikini pictures in Hawaii vacations and she dresses up provocatively. She is into the Beach Body program. She appears to be somatic but she is very judgmental of women and who in her opinion goes too far sexually. So I think she is somatic but not the classic somatic type. She also has a bachelor’s and master’s degree in psychology so she isn’t dumb.

        2. Anm says:

          Witch, yeah, I have a sister who is overly transparent with her children. I agree. You dont need to lie, but there isn’t a need to tell them everything.

    2. Fiddleress says:

      Ren, TWO Narc parents?! I can’t imagine what it must have been like.

      Re what you wrote about your mother linking you to an orgasm: the last N I got entangled with said that his mother told him the greatest orgasm she’d had in her life was when he was born. Poor woman! But sounds very narcy too.

      1. Renarde says:

        Fiddleress

        Yup two. I’ve talked to Hg about this. Its unusual but they are in a marriage of conscience. PN leads and Mum follows.

        She absolutely levelled up when PN caught her. No quals. No beauty or figure. Nothing. But she is sly and devious.

        So she puts up with PNs indiscretions. In return she has a comfortable lifestyle. One that she could never had on her own.

        Bro is now coming round. He wants the test. I spoke to a friend about this yesterday and he advised caution. What if PN doesnt know that his son isnt his?

        He bloody does know. Hes to canny and mum can never keep her trap shut. I think that might be why he once, just once slapped her.

        A very good story on a double narc marriage is in The House of Cards. British version. You can absolutly see the dynamic and its chilling. Also To Play The King is very worthwhile.

        As to your best orgasm ever comment. It could be true but I smell BS. No mother should ever be talking to her son about bedtime matters. If my son ever wanted to talk to me about that, hed get a very firm, no. Its a tad different between mother and daughter but not by much. Which is why it took me decades to speak to her. By that time I was very nearly weaponised you see. I wanted to know to understand my fathers cadre. Cerebral. Mum is a Somatic.

      2. Anm says:

        Fiddleress,
        I am pretty sure my mother with Borderline Traits would physically and verbally assault my dad while she gave birth to her children. She was so mean to my dad while I was growing up, but they both said nothing compared to how she acted while in labor. I think in Renardes mothers case, she is implying that since she got knocked up, she OBVIOUSLY means she experiences orgasms. Not always the case. Some women have never experienced orgasms. I have heard that someone could have an orgasm while giving birth. Just strange.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I remember overhearing a lady say “I have a first class degree and I have never had an orgasm.”
          I combined the two for her.

          1. Lorelei says:

            HG—I don’t understand what combining a degree and that means? I’m lost.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            A first class orgasm.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Oh gawd. Renarde—often men that claim extreme sexual prowess are talkers. I’ve also faked orgasms because I was bored. Not with my ex husband though. I made him work. I am too altruistic and pure to continue on with this filth.

          4. mommypino says:

            That’s really funny! I didn’t understand the joke either but now it is really funny.

          5. Renarde says:

            Hg

            You are such a bad boi!

            Lorelei

            Keep up, love x

          6. Violetta says:

            Why don’t these people figure it out when they’re kids like everybody else?

        2. Fiddleress says:

          I think you are right regarding Renarde’s mother, that is what I understood too. It just reminded me of that other story.
          I have heard that some women have never experienced orgasms. This reminds me of a British film: “Oh My God”, about the invention of the first vibrators in 19th century Britain when women were supposed to suffer from hysteria, and the vibrator was the cure. An entertaining film, with Maggie Gyllenhaal, notably.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Fiddleress,
            Most delightful with lots of fun tones, here it’s under the title “Hysteria”
            I have a DVD copy of it ! 😁
            Luvved it !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      3. Violetta says:

        Not necessarily, Fiddleress. I knew someone who said her hormones were so crazy with her first she almost had an orgasm on the delivery table while her OB was trying to guide the baby out of the birth canal. With her second, things were more prosaic.

        1. Fiddleress says:

          Wow, I had never heard that this could happen! Especially from what my mother told me of my and my brother’s births (i.e. torture).
          I had C-sections for both my children, under epidurals so that was painless. Except for the epidural in fact, the first time.
          But my Nex said what his mother told him had traumatised him and made him impotent. Possibly one more pity-play.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Hi Fiddleress, I think that you’re right, she is very likely to be a matrinarc. I think that she told her son that to imply that his dad was so incompetent at making her have orgasms that the best orgasm she had was not during sex but when she was giving birth which is in most cases a very painful experience. I bet she had a lot to do with why he became a N.

            Although I’m sure there are cases it is true and in her case it might be true that she had an orgasm while giving birth, most women would not say that to their husbands or children to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings or humiliating anyone.

          2. MommyPino says:

            I forgot to add that shaming is one of the favorite tools deployed by matrinarc’s and that is a form of shaming.

        2. Renarde says:

          Vi

          I’ve heard of this phenomena. I’m guessing its the babies head on tender spot. Unless they are lying.

          I’m a conssieur of the big screaming O. But I never felt that way when birthing mine. Way too fucking painful. Too raw. Too visceral.

          I think maybe you might well have a female N. It’s too odd. Too weird. Youre being ripped open. Blood, shit, piss, tears. Nothing further from my mind. No sexual pleasure. Just get the fucking baby out.

          Get it out. Now. Right now. The sheer relief when they crown and you know the gigs going to be done.

          In my opinion, a woman that’s says are having a O during birth doesnt understand Os.

          1. njfilly says:

            Renarde,

            O, how I would love to join in this conversation about O’s, but I have no children.

            Although I might qualify as I have had many O’s!

          2. Renarde says:

            Excellent. Let’s have big Os together, but apart tonight!

          3. njfilly says:

            Done deal!

          4. Violetta says:

            Actually, she said the OB’s hand bumped a tender spot. She was afraid she would embarrass herself, her moans and gasps blended in with all the other standard noises.

            Fortunately, she did not scream, “Yes! Yes! Dr. Saperstein, you’re makin’ me see GOD!

          5. Renarde says:

            And of course we know that God is Hg.

            Can you imagine the scene? Yes, oh my God Yes I’m coming! Give the book. THE book. SATN.

            It will fall.open at those well thumbed pages!

          6. Lorelei says:

            I agree Renarde. I wasn’t thinking about sex during child birth. It’s not a big deal though—it was easy. I can still have a baby according to my hormone levels—but I’d kill myself first.

          7. Renarde says:

            What bloody idiot wants that?

            Oh I’ve just been told off by man. I used the phrase ‘hes a fucking idiot’. ‘Oh, is there any need for bad language? Yes. You cunt.

            I cant STAND being told what to do or say. Unless it’s a worthy Dom of course.

  11. Fiddleress says:

    I can only say the same as FYC: everything in your article, HG, is so accurate!

    I haven’t seen my N mother for 11 years now, but boy did she try to hoover me! By proxy, and through letters, even after I thought the matter had been settled thanks to my lawyer (my mother was harrassing me and threatening me).

    I don’t think I would ever have found the courage to break away from her if my brother (a normal, with fewer qualms than me) hadn’t done so, a year before I did. Only two children, and both have stopped seeing her.

    For a long time, I felt I would be judged harshly for not seeing my parents anymore, since it is largely deemed unacceptable to do this and not take care of your aging parents. But I find that some people can understand.
    Anyway, she managed to turn our relatives against us kids, so they can take care of her.

    What about the other parent? My father never spoke to my brother and me. I remember him saying he drank because of my mother, and I can see what he means. Yet he always sided with her against me and my brother.

    What really bugs me is that I broke free at the time when I understood what my mother was, AND STILL I went through two harmful relationships afterwards (talk of being addicted!): one lasted 6 years, as a “friend” with a gay man – I always felt we were not really friends, and that relationship disturbed me a lot – and the last one, “romantic” as those relationships are called, which led me to HG in February. Mind you, it is probably the most important event of my life, in terms of understanding myself and what to look out for, so something great is coming out of it.
    I truly believe that what I am learning on narcsite through your articles and your works, HG, and other readers’ comments, is a life-changer. Eight years in therapy after breaking free from my mother did not achieve that.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Fiddleress, your observations are appreciated and often made by those who embrace and apply my work.

    2. Renarde says:

      Filddleress

      Awful. I’m sorry you had to experience that. My parents are now old and not in great health. Mum has to walk on two sticks but otherwise shes in rude health.

      PN dishenrited me, again, the other day. Then rings up bold as brass. So I’m now back in The Game.

      You know, you do have a touch of hope here. Your father might escape or she might go first. You never know but you do stand the possibility of getting him back.

      I’m so glad you found this place. Nothing can ever take away the pain of a narc parent but hopefully, just as I have found, you adopt the higher, moral position and see them for what they are. Scum.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Thanks Renarde.
        I realise that I am rehashing things that I should really have put to rest years ago, and thought I had, re my mother/parents. It is probably due to recent events with the presence of Ns around me, and as I am trying to make sure I get them out of my life and thoughts as much as possible, my whole Collection of Narc Portraits comes to the fore!

        1. Violetta says:

          Fiddleress:

          Both of my parents are dead, but it still hurts that I couldn’t fix all the broken pieces.

    3. FYC says:

      Fiddleress, I am happy for you that are free and I hope you remain so. I doubt in your father’s mind he had much of a choice, but you deserved far better. I appreciated your comments on addiction too. I think it is common for ACoNs to be drawn unconsciously to similar dynamics and try to achieve a different outcome. From what I understand from researching this dynamic, our brains are hardwired to solve unresolved problems. The good news is, this same tenacious brain pattern can be used to our benefit. We can supply the answer to the unresolved problem with the new information we learn here. What we repeat consistently in terms of thoughts and behaviors over time creates new neural pathways and behaviors. It takes time. I am a work in progress, but I can tell you the clarity of understanding I have achieved through absorbing HG’s works and consistently applying them in my life has been remarkable. I’m glad you are here and I hope you stay and keep reading and listening. I highly recommend Zero Impact if you have not already purchased it.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        FYC, thank you so much for what you said!

        It makes total sense that the thorough information we can obtain here helps us move on as it provides our brain with the missing pieces of the jigsaw, which kept us stuck and trying to solve it by putting ourselves in similar situations and thus repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

        When I did a course on troubled teens a few years ago, we were told that when you have experienced trauma (they took the case of a girl who had been sexually abused and found herself repeatedly involved in abusive sexual encounters as a teenager), something like a short-circuit forms in your brain. And as you said, the brain being hardwired to solve unresolved problems, she kept putting herself (unconsciously) through the same situation in the ‘hope’ of making things right somehow and rewiring the neural pathways. It was bound to fail, of course. Then they told us they had found that a drug called Ketamine could repair the neural pathway. Now I am sure that learning, when you can access the right information as we can here, is a safer and certainly more definitive way of achieving this!

        Well, I am not going anywhere. I can see that I have made great progress since I arrived here, though a lot remains to be done. I still have so much to learn. Thank you for directing me to Zero Impact, I am putting it at the top of my list of HG’s works to listen to (it is a file, I think).

        To finish, I agree that my father thought he had no choice. And maybe he really had none. He had his own coping mechanisms.

        1. Renarde says:

          Fiddleress

          Intresting! Very. But I dont think taking a horse tranqualiser is the way forward.

          Ket heads are bonkers mad. I think utilising E and its partner 2CB might be a kinder and gentler way.

          When you have been borne out of narcs, you were being abused before you were born.

          It absolutely resonates with me the story about the sexually abused girl. This is the concept of the Wounded Healer. I’m living that reality. Before I reached full weaponisation, I was desperately trying to save abused women. Sometimes they would listen but more often they would not.

          This caused me pain. Then I took time out. Did the EDC. Trait Dector then weaponisation. Then I realised that every single person I was trying to help was actually me. I was trying to save myself.

          It was Hg that stopped me actually. You need to get yourself well, he said.

          So when it resumes, and it will, it will be done differently.

          You’ve come to the right place. Keep on asking the questions. We are here to help.

        2. Supernova DE says:

          I can’t see how Ketamine could “repair” a neural pathway. It does cause dissociation though.

          1. FYC says:

            SDE, You are correct. In research I have read in the past, psychotropic drugs have been experimented with to determine their effects on critical intracellular signaling pathways. This is not the same as neural synapses. Further, Ketamine is contraindicated for any psychiatric use. Other psychotropic drugs have been experimented with in an attempt to activate areas of the brain currently inaccessible, but I have not read anything that indicates any lasting positive affect.

          2. Fiddleress says:

            I am no specialist in that field. And wrong wording on my part, possibly.
            We were told it could unblock the knot (not sure this is better than ‘repair the neural pathway’) that the trauma made in the brain, which causes the person (or their brain) to remain stuck and try again and again to find a way through what they could not deal with because it was so horrible, by recreating the same situation. (I am having a hard time expressing this). They did say Ketamine was to be used with great care and that it was dangerous. And that it was not the officially accepted thing to do, but had been known to work (within a medical setting).

        3. FYC says:

          FIddleress, You are most welcome and I am glad you are here on KTN. I have not researched child abuse, but I have noticed that when I meet adults that have been abused, it seems to change their own belief about themselves instead of only about the act and the other who exerted that act/behavior. This is truly sad and unfortunate. It is never a child’s fault when an adult abuses them. Ever. But there is something hardwired in humans that seeks to resolve or find meaning out of something that is wrong. Yet some things are just senseless. It has nothing to do with the one abused, it has to do with the abuser. We are all responsible for our own actions. Unfortunately with Ns, accountability is absent. Blame shifting and triangulation makes matters worse. Further, this happens at a time of brain development that literally changes the synapses (connections for neural pathways) we develop at an age it matters most. In adulthood we have to make a far greater effort to purposefully create new neural pathways, but fortunately it can be done, and that is what we are doing in following HG’s great advice. I hope HG’s information gains broad public awareness. That will do far more good than the last 100 years of psychology.

        4. Lorelei says:

          I’ve not even read the Ketamine research because the entire concept is shit. Cleveland clinic actually did a study on trauma on Ketamine administration for trauma treatment last year. (May be ongoing—I was amused by it—even more so by the well meaning people who promote/promoted it)
          I’ll bet on a ham sandwich to cure my ills over Ketamine. Horse shit. Ketamine is good for few things. Kids that need effective sedation for procedures, and adults that are trying to kick the hell out of staff in an emergency. It’s a dissociative style nap. I am confident that any perceived benefit is more psychological than the reality—but if someone feels they’ve improved then so be it.

    4. Bibi says:

      STILL I went through two harmful relationships afterwards (talk of being addicted!): one lasted 6 years, as a “friend” with a gay man – I always felt we were not really friends, and that relationship disturbed me a lot

      Fiddleress, I could have written that only make it 7 years. One of the most disturbing relationships of my life and ultimately what gave me the impetus to search up his bad behaviours and eventually find narcissism as the root cause.

      One of the many things that troubled me about my “friendship” with him is that he used me as a distraction for when he could not land cock–also hid that he was gay from me!

      Found out only through his Twitter page and upon my asking why he never told me he said, ‘I am not going to tell you for your convenience.’

      To this day I guarantee he thinks himself the victim and our bad situation as something he ‘unfortunately stumbled into.’ He is likely telling himself, ‘I can’t be so trusting next time!’

      Granted, and never considering the fact that he hid his name, his gayness, his friends, family, entire life of hobbies from me–but I was so important and special to him, he claimed.

      ‘So trusting!’ LOL I was in a fog of Emotional Thinking and rationalizing every bad thing he did.

  12. BonnieLou says:

    HG, how did you feel when your girlfriend pointed out these traits in you? How did she go about this in a way that you said she wasnt being judgemental and you didnt get angry with her? Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I logically saw force in what she was sating but my need for control meant I rejected it, not unpleasantly, in the moment. She explained it in a factual manner without passing judgement, she detailed behaviour and linked it to the relevant aspects and did so without finger pointing, blaming etc. It was very much matter of fact.

  13. lickemtomorrow says:

    My mother is a narcissist. Her mother before her was a narcissist, too. It does seem these things run in families.

    I was the unfortunate empath of our brood, and thus became the ‘scapegoat’.

    And true to HG’s experience, I didn’t always comprehend my mother was a narcissist. That revelation came about more recently due to my now defunct relationship with another of the same kind. He listened so patiently when I told him all about her antics and the issues I had with her. OMG.

    He also told me his own mother was ‘odd’. Or at least that’s how he said his father termed her. I wondered what he meant.

    Now I’m sure I know. We both had narcissistic parents. Only he took his mother’s lead. I did not.

    It does seem familiarity breeds this need we often feel to repair that relationship by putting ourselves through it again. Or we’ve never been given the knowledge we need to truly break away from it in the first place.

    Thanks again, HG. Recognizing these things goes a long way to resolving them, I find.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome. Everything you need to achieve understanding and consequential freedom is provided here.

  14. FYC says:

    HG, This is absolutely accurate. It is often frustrating and painful throughout life. I tried for many years to make a difference for my N parent. I tried to heal their emotional wounds and wanted their happiness. I was not successful, even though I really made a significant effort for many, many years before finding you. I cannot thank you enough for all your work and especially for Zero Impact.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome, FYC.

    2. Lorelei says:

      FYC—when I fully realized what my family life had been it was very much like a stage curtain rising. I still struggle with the odd behaviors upon reflection. It’s such a disconnect in a way—all that my father was—if he were alive he’d go to hell and back if I were stuck in a problem. (To fix it) But the behavior! Isn’t that the cognitive dissonance thing I’ve heard? I’m sorry you have some identifiable elements associated with this article.

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