America : You Are Being Conned

AMERICA _ YOU ARE BEING CONNED

On the 25th May 2020, George Floyd was killed by a then police officer, Derek Chauvin, who knelt on Mr Floyd´s neck for over 8 minutes.

Following this protests have taken place in over 200 US cities.

Rioting, violent disorder and looting has occurred in many US cities.

12 major US cities have imposed curfews.

15 state governors have called in the National Guard.

13 people have died and 5600 have been arrested.

Why did Derek Chauvin behave this way?

Why did three other officers stand by and do nothing?

Why does police brutality occur?

Why do peaceful protests erupt into violence?

Why does looting and destruction occur in the very communities of those protestors?

Why does social media explode into accusation, counter-accusation, fake allegations and vitriol pitting people against one another?

What is the dark force choking the life out of America?

Why are you, America and indeed the world being conned?

Find out here and stop being conned.

 

1,002 thoughts on “America : You Are Being Conned

  1. Emextraordinaire says:

    Wow. Very concise. This would be an eye awakening narrative to many if they choose to try to open their minds beyond mainstream media.

    1. MGM says:

      Of course there are people who have their minds open beyond mainstream media. Welcome to reality. Glad to see your mind has opened.

  2. Susan says:

    I remember the rule of 90 and it really helps. When someone is acting in a strange way and you can’t quit put your finger on what off, ask yourself if 90 % of the people you know would act in the same way. If the answer no, absolutely not, exit.

  3. SMH says:

    K, I am so happy about both of those things!

  4. Violetta says:

    More fun lies ahead.

    This guy thinks if Biden wins, whether by a landslide or by a squeak, Trump may challenge results with every loophole he or his lawyers can find, then hole up in the White House as they drag it on.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/3/21257133/trump-2020-election-meltdown-lawrence-douglas

    I hope (I know, HG!) Trump’s unhealthy lifestyle makes this unnecessary, but I wonder if it would be possible for all the relevant staff to meet with Biden at a coffee house and regard the White House as a non-government building until the present occupant stops squatting there.

    Unfortunately, we might lose some historical architecture in the process …

  5. Sweetest Perfection says:

    HG sees the logic, but I still feel sorrow even after learning the logic. I’m sharing an excerpt of this poem by the great Langston Hughes with all of you. Interesting that the author, leader of the Harlem Renaissance in the 1920’s, decide to link “equality” to “breath”:

    Let America be America again.
    Let it be the dream it used to be.
    Let it be the pioneer on the plain
    Seeking a home where he himself is free.

    (America never was America to me.)

    Let America be the dream the dreamers dreamed—
    Let it be that great strong land of love
    Where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme
    That any man be crushed by one above.

    (It never was America to me.)

    O, let my land be a land where Liberty
    Is crowned with no false patriotic wreath,
    But opportunity is real, and life is free,
    Equality is in the air we breathe.

    (There’s never been equality for me,
    Nor freedom in this “homeland of the free.”)

    1. em2wice says:

      “Negroes- Sweet and docile. Meek, humble and kind. Beware the day they change their mind.” – Langston Hughes

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        ❤️

    2. Bibi says:

      In light of Hughes, here is one of my fave poems by Countee Cullen:

      Incident
      by Countee Cullen (1903-1946)

      Once riding in old Baltimore,
      Heart-filled, head-filled with glee,
      I saw a Baltimorean
      Keep looking straight at me.

      Now I was eight and very small,
      And he was no whit bigger,
      And so I smiled, but he poked out
      His tongue, and called me, “Nigger.”

      I saw the whole of Baltimore
      From May until December:
      Of all the things that happened there
      That’s all that I remember.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        ❤️

  6. SMH says:

    HG, It makes no sense that humans can create systems meant for humans that then become corrupt when the very humans the systems were meant to serve use them. That leads me to believe that human systems cannot be separated from the humans that create them or use them. There are plenty of examples of corrupt systems, from the KKK mentioned by Bibi to capitalism itself. Their logics are embedded in their systematicity, which humans created. They are not natural forces like water cycles and are meaningless until they are operationalized.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It entirely makes sense. It does not mean that it will automatically become corrupt but it does not mean it can never be corrupt. There is a risk.

      1. SMH says:

        I dunno. I think there are systems that are meant to be corrupt. They only work as they were intended if they are ‘corrupt’ (the corruption is part of the system). Policing is one of those systems. It is only there to control marginalized populations.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Depends on your perception.

          1. Renarde says:

            My old A- Level Medieval teacher told me an interesting one.

            We can minimise corruption in the system but we cannot eliminate it. Ever.

  7. Violetta says:

    DM headline:

    I was just INSPECTING the bunker under the White House when I went there ‘two and a half’ or three times during protests claims Donald Trump

    As St. Lawrence allegedly said to the Roman prefect while being cooked alive on a giant gridiron, “Turn me over; I am done on this side.”

    1. Renarde says:

      Ha ha!

  8. Fiddleress says:

    I also have a question, HG, regarding the fact that there are more and more narcissists in this world. Why do you think this is? (I apologise if you have dealt with this question before; I have not come across it or the answer.) Would you say that the particular form of capitalism that is ruling the world right now – i.e. very much deregulated – and has been increasing since the 1970’s/1980’s, leading to a brutal form of extreme individualism and using/abusing people, might be a cause?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See Danger : 50 Things You Should Not Do With a Narcissist

  9. Fiddleress says:

    HG: thank you for this enlightening article. I loved reading it.

    I have been reading works by Cioran (he was controversial, but I like what he wrote) and in his “History and Utopia”, he explains that revolutions only lead to a form or tyranny being replaced by another. Of course, George Orwell showed the same in his works before. But they seemed to view it as inevitable, a flaw that is inherent to mankind, whereas your analysis goes one step further by giving us the key to why it is so. As one who is very interested in politics and why revolutions fail, this is invaluable.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you, I’m pleased you found it insightful

    2. lisk says:

      Revolutions are another bill of goods . . . oh, I’m just repeating myself.

  10. NarcAngel says:

    Well that was more satisfying and a far better use of my $5 than the subpar coffee and pastry that I contemplated this morning. It absolutely must be shared far and wide to bring awareness. We often express frustration at not being able to personally convey to people in our own lives what we have experienced, and to help them better understand about narcissism with our own thoughts and words. This is how. Let this piece speak for you and plant the seed.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well stated, NA.

  11. mollyb5 says:

    The reason I went black on my Instagram is because I have a niece that just had a baby boy and her husband is a black man . She is in New York and she needs to know I didn’t raise my children to be racist . She basically already knows. HG , it’s really hard for me to state my opinion about Narcs because nobody cares , I don’t believe in sharing my opinion with the mass public . HG , What do you think would happen if I shared this article on my FB ? Would I get any thumbs up or likes ? or will it be read and ignored never to be acknowledged that I may be on to something ..and I am not as superior as the rest of the narcs I know ( family) . HG ..tell me why I need to share it ? Since I know the world is full of Narcs …I loose my energy to warn anybody or to preach to anyone ….My traits of empathy for the world have diminished and I’d rather just meditate or pray, and love my kids . And , invest in space travel :). Lol

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If you want people to understand more about the world and narcissist, endorse the material. Your person endorsement will resonate with some recipients and will not with others. Some people will ignore it, a handful may be offensive in rejecting it (ignore them) and some will be curious. Focus your effort on encouraging (not preaching) to the ones who express an interest, but if you do not endorse and recommend, the curious will never know about it to begin with. You cannot tell people how to think, but you can embrace curious minds.

      1. Empath007 says:

        Good advice. Trying to spread the word can be difficult. Like any other issue problem people either A) do not care becauSe it does not affect them directly (or they think it doesn’t) or B) like any other addict… need to be ready to face themselves and their own issues to break the addiction.

    2. lisk says:

      Ground Control to mollyb5.

      I totally hear you.

      1. mollyb5 says:

        Lisk , haha! The last post I put on my Facebook was a video of penguins , at the KC Nelson Art Gallery , walking around viewing Monet etc .

  12. Another Cat says:

    Thank you HG, most intriguing article. Relieving too.
    My soul couldn’t rest until I found out more about how a narcissist, like that police officer, acts within a hierarchic structure, like racism, etc. Our experience says some folks instinctively lick upwards and kick downwards. Would he have killed a white man in this situation?
    Evening is secured.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. wildviolet22 says:

      Chauvin had 18 complaints against him and the Minneapolis police department won’t release what those are, but my guess is, probably. You just wouldn’t hear about it, especially if he was white and poor and/ or mentally ill. It was in a different state, but look up Kelly Thomas, and what those cops did to him. That’s just one example, but so many cases like that, that you don’t even hear about.

      But what happening in these cities, let’s see what happens come election time, especially in local politics. Usually what happens is you have extremely poor voter turn out, corrupt politicians / mayors get in, their own policies end up hurting people; they are the ones who hire police commissioners, and police are protected by public sector unions, so when there are incidents or complaints, it’s hard to get rid of them, etc. And around & around it goes. And who is going to bring their businesses back to these areas that are being destroyed, and who is this going to hurt long term? A huge mess all around.

      1. Another Cat says:

        I hear you wildviolet22. I am not in the States, but we’ve had similar incidents , and the security guards always holding down an immigrant person with black hair. Although you and HG both have convinced me that the main issue here is that the cop has a personality disorder, and the victim pleading for his life was a trigger, so it’s not so much a structure thing, I still get the feeling that they use some facad/structure to surge power. “No one cares about this one anyway so I can do whatever I want to him”.

        1. wildviolet22 says:

          Yeah, I think depending on where you live too. In the States, in some of these cities especially, there are some rough areas, and who is willing to be a cop in some of these areas? I used to live in a city, and I knew a friend of a friend who got stopped by a couple of cops (I forget for what), and the cops raped her. In another incident, in a suburban town where nothing really happens, I knew of someone who called the cops when her place was broken into, and the cops had so little experience and things like that happened so rarely, they were too scared to go in, and she had the crap beat out of her and ended up escaping through a window.

          Huge infamous case in Connecticut in 2007, Cheshire family murders, where a whole family was killed (except the father, who escaped from the basement), and the cops were right outside the whole time. They were going on orders that it’s a hostage situation, and told not to go in. To this day, that police department won’t admit to anything and won’t say a peep about it. But you have to wonder what thoughts were going through their minds as they were being told to hold off. Last night I watched a former cop be interviewed on The Rubin Report, and his take on the George Floyd case. He was talking about that, how as an officer you are trusting the officer in charge/ with seniority not to f*** everything up.

          I don’t know, we have access to statistics, and the demographics of the people killed by police. Hard to find stats on the demographics of the cops. But when you look up the cases, I do think the local culture of the area, and the mindset of the cops, has a lot to do with it. The Ariel Roman case in Chicago, I believe he may have had some mental health issues going on too, and the 2 cops in that case were both black, one female and one male, and they escalated that situation and screwed everything up in a very similar fashion to some of these other cases that make national news, so sometimes I do think an “ism” might be driving the behavior, but I think generally speaking in a lot of these cases, the controlling mindset, coupled with the willingness/ desire to use violence, is an issue for sure (maybe sometimes all of these things are factors).

  13. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, could the bystander and/or other officers said anything which would have prevented the officer from kneeling on George Floyd’s neck at all?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The bystander? No.
      The other officers – questionable. The other officers could have used force though.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks that’s helpful to know. I just wondered if any of us ever found ourselves in a bystander situation whether there is anything we could do to deescalate without wading in.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It depends on a variety of factors AS2016 and it is too expansive for my comment here, but a lot of it turns on who the protagonist is and if you are dealing with a narcissist remember, your persuasion, threat, enticement, cajoling, pleading, appealing to reason may work with someone who shares your perspective but it is coming up against the wall that is the Narcissist´s Perspective. As I have explained many times, in such a situation, you cannot control us but there ARE mechanisms to enforce control on the narcissist and those mechanisms come from a legal system. In this instance, the legal system was not only absent, it was being harnessed as a means of asserting control. As NA wrote earlier, what could the bystander do? Call the police?

          1. Violetta says:

            The owner of the store that called the cops when Floyd used a counterfeit bill said they’re not calling the cops for situations like that anymore. It causes more trouble than it’s worth.

          2. Empath007 says:

            I’m really glad you wrote this peice HG. It’s bringing up so many important things people want to talk about. Thank you for sharing your presepective with the world… one day… when the masses are ready to finally understand… I hope the confusion lessens. Otherwise I’m just happy I found this place. My world has changed because of it… while I miss my naivety… I’ve always much preferred the knowledge and the truth.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you. This is a place of breakthrough and education.

          4. Thank you for expanding.

          5. Caity says:

            Violetta

            What I found odd was they called the police for a counterfeit bill at all. I managed 2 convenience stores in Vegas in 2004-2006 and saw several fake twenties. SOP was to take the bill, point out to the person trying to pass it that it was fake, while refusing to return it, and then after the person left, call the Secret Service to report it. Yes, seems weird but the Secret Service is the organization that deals with counterfeit money. Cops wouldn’t be called as it is not their…’call’.

            And, in *all* incidents I was never challenged by the person trying to pass the note, even when I stated I was taking it / not giving it back. Most acted embarrassed, blamed ‘someone else’ for giving it to them, or denied it was fake although *none* of them insisted I give it back.

            Not sure what’s going on in that state regarding counterfeit bills but it’s hard to imagine Nevada is the only state following protocol for such incidents.

          6. Violetta says:

            I never got informed I’d passed a fake bill, but I have been called on Canadian coins. They do give those back to me, and I store them somewhere or other on the unlikely event I visit Canada, which I haven’t done since I was 13.

            I also have a purse full of UK coins which are never being exchanged, even if I don’t get to go back. Two-£ coins are the coolest, although I love saying “twopence” correctly.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        The other officers could also have appealed to the damage of the facade (as a police officer and to the police force – not in the context of narcissism), but not likely if they are also narcissists. I’m sure their defence for inaction will be that they couldn’t see from their position instead of admitting they didn’t have the balls to address him if they are not. I mean how hard would it be even if you were just a coward to appeal to him as another officer by saying: hey man, let up a little. People are watching/filming and you’ll get your chance later.

        Anything to give Floyd a breath and a chance in that moment.

        1. FYC says:

          NA, I rather doubt any logical appeal would have worked. I would suggest that when a N is in immediate need for control, he enters a limbic state. If this is the case, no amount of reason would dissuade the action until the limbic state ceases. The brains of humans and animals are very similar in this way. Further, a limbic state can also create “limbic resonance” within a group of people, creating a sense of temporary like mindedness by way of intuitively knowing what is expected/needed in the situation. In this case, they may have intuited the “don’t even think of challenging me” mentality. Or they may have feared retaliation by Chauvin. Lastly I would offer that police are conditioned (if not explicitly told) to be loyal to other officers in virtually all circumstances and not to speak up or counter another officer (aka: Blue Wall of Silence, Blue Code, Blue Shield) and this might inhibit a more normal and reasonable response.

          I agree with HG, they could have, and should have, used force to pull Chauvin off of Floyd.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            FYC
            I agree they could have and should have pulled him off, but if they wouldn’t even attempt a low volume “hey bro – this is looking bad and there are too many witnesses…” for fear of challenging him or retaliation from him, I would think the likelihood of them challenging him directly and embarrassing him by pulling him off would be next to nil.

          2. FYC says:

            NA, Sorry, I should have better clarified “immediate need for control” as a state of fury or malice, and in this case it was executed by way of cruel physical control to the point of death. for the reasons HG identifies. I am not suggesting that any level of an immediate need for control would explain such abhorrent behavior.

          3. FYC says:

            NA, I agree completely.

        2. WuzFoxy says:

          FYI – There is a second video not well circulated taken from a different angle (the opposite side of the vehicle) that clearly shows 2 officers also kneeling on Mr. Floyd to help hold him down while the fourth officer stands guard. It explains why Mr. Floyd’s struggle against the principle murderer wasn’t more pronounced.
          Additionally not mentioned in this thread is that despite the presence of 4 officers, civilians did step towards the murderer wanting to stop him and he pointed a can of mace and ordered them back. The risk/success ratio was not in their favor and they could clearly see they were dealing with 4 very dangerous individuals.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            WF, have you read the article before commenting? If not, please do.

  14. SMH says:

    I friggin HATE cops with a passion. Always have, always will. Doesn’t matter if they are ‘helping’ me (I have never needed their help) or hurting someone else. I just have a visceral reaction to them. I haven’t read the article yet but I suspect it will give me some understanding as to why.

    1. K says:

      SMH
      You and me both. Most of the cops that I have interacted with are arrogant, lazy, stupid as shit and dirty. When I was a kid, a cop was shot and killed, execution-style, near my neighborhood; he deserved it; he was a kiddy diddler.

    2. fox says:

      I hate cops too. I have been harassed by them a few times just for driving the car my ex boyfriend was pulled over in. And once, I was aggressively cuffed, thrown against my car and arrested because of a $10 seatbelt violation I had attempted to pay but they “lost in the system”. They are not there to serve and protect. They are there to collect as much money as possible and harass those who can’t pay.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Surely those who state they hate cops don’t mean all cops (which is what that statement implies). As with anything, there are good ones.

        1. Bibi says:

          There are good ones within a definite corrupt system. I have to wonder why many go into this system. Is it really ‘to preserve and to protect’? OR do they just wish to feel important?

          The anger of I hate cops! stems from YEARS of brutality directed towards people of color but most specifically those with black skin tone.

          I could never be a cop for a number of reasons (don’t have the personality for it,–similar to why I’d be a bad lawyer) but I would really have problems with people looking the other way at these injustices.

          I think the Central Park Karen is another example–that happened on the same day amazingly, where this white woman knew she could use the cops on her side simply b/c her supposed ‘aggressor’ was black.

          This perception of white woman = always good and person of color = bad needs to stop.

          1. fox says:

            Exactly Bibi, but just to be clear, I’m a small white woman and they threw me around like I was some kind of massive threat and left bruises, didn’t read me my rights or explain why I was being arrested (I found out hours later). But my treatment was still nothing compared to BIPOC experiences with the police.

          2. Bibi says:

            That sucks, Fox! They definitely abuse their power. I see them sitting on the sides of the roads near the end of the month to collect tickets. They’ll wait at the bottom of a hill where they know a car will be going faster, etc. It’s a scam.

        2. fox says:

          NA, I would agree there are good people that become cops because they actually believe they will do good in the world, but they are far from the majority IMHO, and it’s even rarer to see them speak out or step up to stop the bad cops from being bad or when the system is failing us, which it absolutely is.

        3. SMH says:

          No, I actually mean what I say. But if some clarification is needed, I hate ALL cops. They make my blood boil.

          1. K says:

            I hate all cops too.

            That is my narcissistic trait of anger hijacking my narcissistic trait of hatred and corrupting the hell out of my empathic trait of justice.

            logic dictates that there are good cops, however, I haven’t met any.

          2. autiempath says:

            You mean cops who are Narcissists?

        4. fox says:

          And sorry, I am speaking from a pretty emotional standpoint I guess when I say I hate cops. I definitely don’t hate the people who try to go into policing for the good of humanity, but I do hate that our system is so completely corrupt, and that police presence is generally more of a threat than a relief, and they do not have a constitutional duty to protect anyone. They don’t care if your house is broken into, or your car is stolen or you were mugged or raped. Their real job is to protect wealthy people’s property, fill quotas and collect fines for the local government. Maybe it’s different outside the US.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I understand what you mean Fox, although a system cannot be corrupt, it is the human beings within the system that are. It is they that damage the system, make it difficult, make it corrupt. Similar principle as explained in “Why is Divorce So Hard?”

          2. fox says:

            Wise words, HG, you’re right.

          3. Bibi says:

            Yes, but HG sometimes the ideologies within that system can be corrupt. There is nothing that is anti-corrupt about the KKK. It is a group/system/collection of individuals who espouse hatred.

            Many would claim the Catholic Church is a corrupt system for the acts performed by priests on boys, etc.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Bibi, where does an ideology come from? Humans. My point stands.

            Who were the abusers within the Catholic Church? Humans. My point stands.

            Who espouses racial hatred within the KKK? Who gives the KKK its stance, its viewpoint and its ideology. Humans. My point stands.

            A system that does not include human beings will not be corrupt. Take the system of the water cycle. Water evaporates and rises from the sea, lakes, streams etc and the condenses. It falls as precipitation over and then trickles into streams, rivers and porous rocks and much of it ends up back in lakes and rivers where the process starts again. This repeats again and again and works without complication or issue. It is a system which works with stress, aggravation, complaint, slowness, arbitrary outcomes, hatred, bias, nepotism, laziness, violence, fraud or favouritism.Why? It does not involve any human beings.

            The system of divorce as a SYSTEM is not problematic, why? It is a system.The system itself is not a problem. You create a document, you file it, it is served, a response is filed, there is a hearing, financial documents are exchanged, information is filed re children etc as appropriate a hearing takes place and a determination is made. It follows a process which is explained and is a means of getting from point A (marriage) to point B (the end of that marriage as recognised by the relevant country’s legal system). As a system it is straight forward but what makes it stressful, hard work, arduous, time consuming, expensive etc – one or more narcissists within that system, i.e. a particular type of human being. The process itself is not problematic it is the person or people within it.

            So, now let’s take the system of divorce and sprinkle it with humans, but ones who are not narcissists. Humans become ill, humans get distracted and do not complete tasks, they are forgetful, unpunctual, hungover, lose interest, get stressed, in short they are fallible and therefore when added to the system they can cause problems but they are operating through the same majority perspective.
            Now, what if the humans in that system are narcissists? The problems become increased because of the completely different (but unrecognised and/or misunderstood) narcissistic perspective.
            Narcissist as petitioner? Problems ahead. Narcissist as respondent? Problems ahead. Court clerk dealing with the paperwork who is a narcissist – potential problems, e.g. may work at own pace (sense of entitlement) and if user complains (threat to control) responds by taking even longer, denying they have been slow, blaming the petitioner, blaming a colleague etc. Court appointed expert who is a narcissist – potential problems. Lawyer advising one of the parties – potential problems. Judge who is a narcissist – potential problems.

            If a system has human beings as part of it, either as users or constituent cogs within that process, there will be problems and especially so where those humans are narcissists for the reasons explained throughout my work.

          5. lisk says:

            Well, any human-invented system like divorce or law is done for, hence my belief that we’ve been sold a bill of goods when it comes to freedom, equality, human rights, whatever.

            And it is why I love the Man vs. Nature narrative. Nature always wins over any of our human shenanigans in the end. It is why I don’t give a hoot about our needs or desires, about climate change or anything else like that—the laws of nature will still be operating, one way or another, long after we have self-destructed or been destroyed by nature.

          6. Bibi says:

            BTW I am not trying to get into a religion debate–so I have nothing against people who care Catholic, but as example, Pope Francis publicly condemned these acts. This is something Trump refuses to do. I would say the Repub party is a corrupt system–not merely marred by individuals per se, but it has definitely shifted towards a more fringe mentality that these individuals support, or why else be a part of it?

          7. Bibi says:

            Thank you for explaining your points. I just have a few to share.

            But take for example the Stanford Prison Experiment. One of the conclusions was that corruption or abuse of power can be caused or at least influenced by the environment one is in. It is a fascinating study and one very relevant to today.

            When you break any system down you will have individuals, but imagine if someone suffered organ failure and said, ‘No, the organ didn’t fail but the cells within that organ failed.’

            Without the cells, the organ could not exist. Without oxygen, cells die, and thus so does the organ, the organ system and ultimately the organism.

            I personally think over trust in institutions is dangerous–people put too much clout in them b/c they are viewed as old and authoritative and they don’t question them b/c they have been around so long. They hold the imprimatur of success. Hence the collective mentality of culture that takes a long time to change–decades and decades, as we still see.

            Systems are run by humans who go through the motions to do things this way or that way without really questioning why. So enter a new individual and suddenly that identity is lost within the collective whole.(In the Stanford Prison Experiment the mock ‘prisoners’ were given numbers to diminish their identities, as example). New cop starts and he is now being warned about the danger of certain classes of people and a prejudice develops that might not have otherwise. Whether he embraces it or not depends on that individual.

            Jim Crow, Trickle Down Economics, Communism, -ism this or that–can’t survive on the mere individual. Mao Zedong could not have starved whole Chinese villages without implementing his system of followers adapting his beliefs.

            Anyway, I am not trying to be contrarian. But in that 1960s show The Prisoner there is an episode where a machine has been invented that claims to know the answer to every question one could ask. The Prisoner then manages to break the machine because he asks it the one question it can’t answer–Why?

            When hoards of individuals stop questioning and just accepting, this results in a system of cultural stagnancy and repression.

            Thank you for reading, HG.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            “Systems are run by humans” – therein lies the issue as I have stated.
            “where a machine has been invented” who invented it? who programmed it? A human being. Why do you think the concept of GIGO arose?
            Introduce humans into a system, whether conception, implementation or maintenance and there is potential for problems of differing levels of magnitude.

          9. Bibi says:

            I guess I see humans as invariably part of any system–I don’t see them as separate entities once they are willing to surrender that individuality.

            The Peoples Temple would not have been corrupt without Jim Jones, but then without his followers there would be no temple.

            Your last point illustrates why when I was little I used to fantasize about living on a planet with only dinosaurs b/c humans were mean. The kids were mean, my dad, everyone yelling all the time. (I am not kidding.)

            Thank you again for illuminating your points in a clear and pointed manner.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome Bibi and I appreciate your input into the discussion also. Your dinosaur comment amused me.

      2. lisk says:

        i like good cops. I dislike bad cops.

        fox, I am glad you spoke up about your harassment by cops. It can happen to ANY of us.

      3. mommypino says:

        Fox, I’m sorry you experienced that. It must have been really scary.

      4. SMH says:

        Fox, they are power hungry sadistic control freaks. Hmmm. Sounds familiar. I’ve been stopped for things like speeding and even as a privileged white woman, which I am, I have to keep myself from telling them to go fuck themselves. Might be totally irrational but I don’t think so. They all act like we work for them when they work for us. I’ve also spent a lot of time in countries where I wouldn’t go near a cop even if I were in danger. Serve and protect my ass.

        Triggered much? Yup. The George Floyd murder was an extension of cop attitude and cop behaviour. It confirms what a lot of people feel and what POC know. It woke a lot of people up. Cops are no one’s friend. More charges had better be on the way.

  15. Claire says:

    I was holding my breath waiting HG to write some material about the current situation in the USA.
    This article is the best analysis, the most outstanding, comprehensive and accurate one that I have read so far related to the current affairs!
    Absolutely brilliant material!
    I am observing the news from the USA non stop as my dearest ones live there and I am shocked , sad and restless .
    I can’t imagine how awful the fellow readers in the USA feel right now !
    At least this wonderful article provides the answers why that’s happening.
    Thank you, HG !

    And my prayers and thoughts to all Americans readers!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Claire.

  16. Gab says:

    Off topic but I have just read about new problems in Harry and Meghan life. Rumours about explosive fights, police intervention, him being hospitalized with PTSD. Don’t know if its true but it fits. Can’t wait for your updates about them,HG!

    1. mommypino says:

      I have read that too but only from a tabloid kind of website. I wonder if it is true then how come it’s not in the mainstream news?

  17. Anna Belle Black says:

    HG, very well done.

    Using your talent to draw attention to what is really ruling all areas of power in the world is a noble thing indeed. To use your platform to point out these areas, will of course help people into seeing and identifying the real problems behind the scenes, which of course is narcissistic behavior. Your identification of the truth is a step in the right direction. It gives a reason for the dominant spirit of the world. It gives a measure of understanding as to why these things are taking place.

    However, many ask themselves what is the solution to these problems? Can mankind truly be united someday? Many think there isn’t an answer to these questions. They have been disappointed by governments, by big business and by mainstream religion. All of these establishments have had scandals. All of them claim they benefit all people but they do not. All of them have broken people’s trust. Man has truly dominated man to his injury.

    What then is the solution? I’d like to share some things that really helped me with that question. Consider what Jesus said at Matthew 6:9, 10. There we are told to pray for God’s kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven. This is part of the Our Father or Lords prayer. A kingdom is of course a government. So essentially Jesus is telling us to pray for God’s government to come to the earth. Jesus would have never asked us to pray for something that wouldn’t happen. In Daniel 2:44 it says that this kingdom or government will come and crush and put an end to all the kingdoms of the earth and that God’s kingdom will rule to time indefinite. So if God and his kingdom is not ruling on the earth now, who is ruling it? Revelation 12: 7 – 9 and verse 12 give the answer.

    Even though we live in fearful and unsettling times we need not worry. Soon God will crush the first and last narcissist who is misleading people by his false rulership. He will usher in his Kingdom that will benefit all mankind. Psalms 37:10, 11 & 29 tells us the wicked will be no more and the meek will inherit the earth. Yes the entire earth will be free from self serving people. There are many benefits that God’s Kingdom will bring.

    HG again thank you for teaching me and others how to identify narcissistic individuals and why they exhibit these behaviors. And all thanks and glory to God for teaching all of us that he cares for us and loves us and will step in to put an end to the terrible things happening today.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and you are welcome.

      You are naturally entitled to your view with regard to God providing a solution as I am entitled to reject that as a solution.

    2. Witch says:

      @Anna Belle
      It’s likely that Jesus was a himself a Mid-Range narcissist. Sam Vaknin made a video analysing the accounts of Jesus in the bible and concluded that Jesus was a narcissist.(although SV follows the DSM and therefore his analysis would be different from HG’s, I believe if HG analysed the accounts of Jesus he would also conclude that Jesus was a narcissist.)

      1. Kiki says:

        I doubt that , Jesus was a super Empath I imagine .

        If he was a narc , he would have snapped up the deal with the devil in the garden before Judas grassed him in.
        Turn the other cheek
        Let the man with no sin throw the first stone .
        Forgive them Father for they know not what they do , as he was brutally nailed to the cross .

        I cannot image any narcissist being even remotely like this .

        I’m not a religious mad person but a scientist but do think Jesuses teaching were pure absolute goodness and love.
        A goodness’s mans ego finds difficult to follow.

        Kiki

        1. Kiki says:

          Actually just thinking I specialise in ecology and if we look at the laws of nature those are purely narcissistic.
          The strong will win , those weaker or not as smart perish and that is nature’s design .
          It is unforgiving and brutal , cruel even but this is needed .
          I’ve seen a weaker chick being pecked out of the nest and killed by two stronger siblings
          A male big cat will kill the offspring of another Male with no mercy in order to mate with the female to pass on his genes .

          .Heartbreaking but we cannot interfere .

          Just a thought

          1. Love says:

            Kiki, you bring up a great point. Are the laws of nature narcissist OR are they purely based on survival? Every living being is programmed for survival. So when it comes to your existence, you will fight. No being goes into the dark quietly. We fight to live. That is to ensure our genes/ our species continues on and we do not go extinct.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            This is covered in The Addiction Triple Package, Understanding Emotional Empathy and Why Am I Behaving Like a Narcissist?

          3. Love says:

            Thank you. I will give ‘em a whirl.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Jolly good.

          5. lisk says:

            Yes, good point, Kiki.

            Ultimately, all of us are fighting for the same resources. All of this is about resource acquirement and management.

            The people in power will always have the privilege, and will always have access to the best resources. The people who don’t have that power will want that power and privilege and will fight for whatever they can get or resign themselves to the little they have.

            Everybody’s just fighting for what they think is their right to party.

            Perhaps the idea of America and democracy and equality is ultimately a big scam, making each of us think that we have some kind of right, when, really we can only have some kind of luck that’s maybe somewhat influenced by our abilities.

          6. Violetta says:

            On the other hand, narcy parents who don’t invest in their offsprings’ welfare may see their own strains die out.

            Animals that engage in cooperative hunting or foraging will ostracize a noticeably uncooperative member. The chances of surviving and passing on genes are reduced, once excluded. (Of course, some might never be caught, and those will pass on their narcy genes.)

            There are different survival strategies.

          7. Violetta says:

            Witch:

            Most of the early Christians were Jews. This was a family fight. Why do you think things got so nasty?

          8. Witch says:

            @ violetta

            “Most of the early Christians were Jews. This was a family fight. Why do you think things got so nasty?”

            Yes violetta that’s why those Jews said there will be a second coming in which Jesus would fulfil the messianic prophecy because he failed the first time round and they didn’t want to admit they were wrong and that everything they sacrificed for Jesus was for nothing

          9. Violetta says:

            Witch:

            Look at the Gospel of John, unquestionably more bitter in time than the synoptic Gospels.

            Now think about who John was. Peter’s skulking in the yard at the High Priest’s house, ready to run like a rabbit after pulling his “Jesus? What’s a Jesus? Anybody here see a Jesus?” routine.

            John is inside. Why? He knew somebody, it says. Was it just a servant, or was he actually related to Caiaphas, one of those Poor Cousins From Galilee that would embarrass their city slicker cousins if they got too much attention, even if they weren’t wandering around with itinerant preachers with big mouths?

            Read John Chapter 12 and following. Jesus said exactly what was going to happen. “Lifted up” is a pun in Latin: “sublatum” can mean lifted up or killed (although I don’t know how or if this worked in Aramaic or Koine).

            Then read Acts 2. There seems to be a distinction between “Israelites” (all of them) and “Jews,” which could mean strictly Judeans. Galileans were like West Virginians to New Yorkers or Scousers to Londoners.

            I’m not trying to convert you here, just pointing out that Biblical people weren’t just stupid modern people. Something made the Apostles, most of whom had been skulking in somebody’s attic or trying to sneak out of Jerusalem, start speaking out fearlessly. Something made Peter–who was all set for a tavern-style brawl in the garden of Gethsemane but clammed up and ran when he had to defend Jesus with words–able to face down the Sanhedrin when they told him he was an ignorant man who couldn’t possibly know what he was talking about.

            Early Christians preached only the Resurrection. All the other info came later. For a bunch of snivelling cowards to start testifying so boldly, something extraordinary must have happened. We only have their word about the blind seeing and the lame walking, but there is incontrovertible evidence about people’s characters changing for the better and staying that way, which might a bigger miracle than raising a few folks from the dead or feeding a huge crowd on scraps. Unlike the Raelians and the Manson Family, they didn’t die out. Unlike the Raelians and the Manson Family, they weren’t told to.do horrible things.

            It is true that horrible things have been done in the name of Jesus, but that’s not what he actually said, nor is it what the disciples said.

            Religion is like a magnifying glass. If you want to be a better person, it can help you, but if you’re looking for excuses to be a monster, you can always find them. It will enhance whatever people bring to it.

        2. Witch says:

          Kiki the bible is a mixture of true events, people who actually existed and mythology/legends like any other scripture.
          If you literally believe Jesus met the devil then I understand why you have come to the conclusion that you have.
          I likely dated a Mid midranger type A so I have a very different perspective on Jesus than you do.
          Although, I prefer HG’s categorisation of narcissists over Sam Vaknin’s because it is far more accurate and helpful; Sam is still a greater narcissist and to some degree recognises his own kind and their behaviours, therefore it is logical for me to have more faith in his analysis of Jesus than the analysis of any believer.
          I could have a whole off topic discussion with you about the differences between the roles and symbolism of Satan in Judaism and Christianity. Hint, Satan was not always “the devil” that character development came much later.

          1. Kiki says:

            Witch

            I am well capable of discerning the symbolism in the Bible .

            I am not as you may think some bible bashing dullard but a scientist .

            My point cult leaders many have used people for control and carried out acts of evil when they have that control.

            Nowhere did Jesus do that .

            Whether people believe or don’t believe is not my concern but the fact is Jesus only preached goodness .

            I would NEVER believe someone like Sam Vaknin .A liar no with a god complex No ???

            I rely on my own critical thinking skills which do align my thoughts closely with Hgs for some reason .

            Can you just imagine Sam willingly allowing himself to be nailed to a cross and giving total forgiveness NOT revenge or hate .

            The point hate breeds hate , we can see that clearly now in America.

            Unfortunately man cannot. Follow Jesus teachings as we are flawed with ego.

            Kiki

          2. Kiki says:

            Witch

            I may sound annoyed but I’m not it’s just my beliefs and I cannot see why Jesus would be called a Greater Narc .
            It’s something I will personally never accept but everyone has a right to their own opinion and I acknowledge your opinion.

            Let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that 😊

          3. Kiki says:

            HG do you believe Jesus was a Greater Narc or a narc .??

            I think he was the ULTIMATE SUPER Empath of all empaths .
            Going by the empathetic traits and absolute selflessness of his actions .

            Kiki

        3. mommypino says:

          Kiki, Now after learning here from HG, I have a different kind of appreciation of the story of Satan tempting Jesus. When I read the exchange between Satan and Jesus, I think Jesus showed an amazing example on how to respond to narcissists’ provocations and temptations. It was pretty awesome how Jesus handled it. Satan was totally wounded!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Challenge Fuel.

          2. mommypino says:

            I obviously still need to learn more about the difference lol. That’s probably why their battle still goes on!

          3. Violetta says:

            MP:

            Jesus was up to.arguing with the Devil. The rest of us should probably put our earbuds in and change subway cars as soon as possible, without acknowledging the Devil by word or look.

      2. blackcoffee30 says:

        I highly doubt Jesus was a narc, but all accounts of him are not first-hand and many are not included in the most widely accepted versions of the Christian bible.

        Anyhow, that is an interesting theory. I’d certainly want to read up on the idea.

        FWIW my undergrad degree is in Religious Studies and no, I am no Christian. So, I’m not 100% talking out my ass here.

        Moreover, I am a recovering childhood Catholic.

        1. Witch says:

          I’m curious as to why you highly doubt it? I mean not doubt it, but highly doubt it?
          Because he said “do onto others” “love thy neighbour” okay, that is what everyone was already doing except for the narcissists, hardly much of a revelation.
          He also allegedly said “i am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me”- classic sign of grandiose narcissism and need for control.
          There are others. If anyone wants me to make a list, I might find the time to do that.
          I guarantee that the vastly majority of people who have started new cults are narcissists. Narcissists who want to break away from the religious leaders they were under and gain control by starting their new little cult whereby they get be god.

          1. lisk says:

            I’d be interested in that list, but no need–I definitely can see why people would think Jesus was a Narc. And, really, broadcasting for himself “what everyone was already doing except for the narcissists” was maybe him ripping off empathic traits.

            Also, re: “I guarantee that the vastly majority of people who have started new cults are narcissists. Narcissists who want to break away from the religious leaders they were under and gain control by starting their new little cult whereby they get be god.”

            Yes, because the rest who break away just GOSO.

          2. blackcoffee30 says:

            1. I am interested in viewing your list.
            2. I am going to find Vaknin’s video, curious to hear his spin.
            3. Claiming one is the Way, the Truth, etc. is not necessarily indicative of grandiosity. It could conceivably come from an empathic viewpoint, which I am not arguing at this moment; it is one alternate possibility.
            4. Oof. Let me dig out my books and work on the Gospels and what all and get back to you.
            5. Much as I try to be untainted in my observations, I am Nichiren Buddhist. That plays a part in my worldview and opinions, which I cannot separate.
            6. We must consider the context of the time and the context of Judaism and mono and poly theistic religions developing at that time, as well as the Christianity that developed by the time the Gospels were written as opposed to what scholars now believe Jesus actually preached and lived.
            7. I’m sure there is a typo or I forgot a point; somehow, this always holds true.
            8. None of the above is in any particular order. This is a fun excursion on narcissistic evaluation on HG’s blog. LOL 🙂

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Allegedly is apt. I’m still at Jesus allegedly existed. When I get past that I’ll tackle how it came to be that people embraced the fantastical story that accompanies said existence. I am always amazed that people talk in terms of “he said” and “he did” when there is no actual proof – only a belief that he even existed. I mean it was genius if Mary got up the stump from someone other than Joe and spun this tale of being impregnated by a god to avoid being ostracized and people bought into it. There was no telly back then and everyone needed hope and a hobby I suppose.

          4. Violetta says:

            NA: She wouldn’t have been ostracized: she’d have been killed. “Betrothed” didn’t mean engaged; it meant 3/4 married. She’d have been stoned to death for adultery. (Fornication, however, would probably get ostracism.)

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest NarcAngel,
            I need to make a collage of everything you say, sit back, ruminate, then throw myself back into fits of hysterical laughter whilst trying not to spill my wine 🍷
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. Witch says:

            Either way NA
            Only a narc would believe that no one can have contact with god expect through them. That sounds like any typical cult leader that we would criticise today.
            Either the writers were all narcs or Jesus was, maybe both.
            I’m not saying that Jesus was the worst cult leader humanity has ever experienced but I doubt he was an empath or even a normal.
            When a gentile (non Jew) asked him for help he rejected her for not being Jewish, saying that he is only here for the Jews. Then when she worshipped him he switched it up and said she has great faith and then decided to help her lol
            It’s only when the majority of the Jews rejected him as a blasphemer and a fraud, did he suddenly die for all of humanity and as he did not fulfil the Jewish prophecy, and therefore was proven to not be the Jewish Messiah, the New Testament writers said there would be a second coming when he will fulfil the Jewish prophecy of the Messiah.
            If that isn’t a religion created by narcs I don’t know what it!

          7. mommypino says:

            “ Either the writers were all narcs or Jesus was, maybe both.”

            You haven’t considered another possibility that it’s also either Jesus was telling the truth.

          8. Witch says:

            @NA
            No doubt Mary was either knocking boots with another man or got raped and fell pregnant and did not want to take the risk of no one believing that she was raped.
            Or it was already known by the village that she was raped and the bible writers thought that was a degrading way for their Messiah to come into the world so they invented a fairytale around his conceivement

          9. mommypino says:

            Witch, your argument about Jesus being a narcissist because he believed and said that he is the only way to God is logical IF he was only human. But believers believe that Jesus was indeed the son of God and that he was telling the truth that the only way to God is following the teachings of Jesus so therefore he was not lying nor was he just being grandiose, he was just professing the truth. Now it is up to each of us to decide whether we believe in it or not but your argument only stands if Jesus was indeed just an ordinary human like the rest of us. It is my belief that he was not so Sam Vaknin’s argument is irrelevant to me.

          10. mommypino says:

            It really all boils down to faith.

          11. Witch says:

            @MP
            Of course he was an ordinary man like the rest of us that’s why he died and he died before fulfilling the prophecy of the messiah. There’s really no reason to believe that he was more divine than any other cult leader, at least none that I can see.
            There are many sects of Judaism with many different rabbis that followers pretty much worship, keeping photos of their rabbi in every room of their house. It’s no different to how people feel about Jesus. The only difference is that thousands of years later people are still waiting for a “second coming” of Jesus because Jesus failed during the first coming.

          12. mommypino says:

            Whitney, I understand Vaknin must have come from Jewish background as I believe I have read before that he is an Israeli and that is probably why his lack of understanding regarding Jesus is showing. Even my atheist brother knows the story that Jesus rose from the dead and showed himself to his disciples who all willingly died for him. That is why we have Easter Sunday! Anyway, you can argue that you cannot prove that the apostles were telling the truth, but logically you can also argue that you cannot prove that the apostles were not telling the truth. I just find it amazing that they would willingly die about something that they lied about if that was the case.

          13. mommypino says:

            I’m sorry, I was wrong to say that all of the apostles willingly died for Jesus. I forgot that Judas committed suicide by hanging himself and John was the only apostles who died a natural death from old age. Everybody else died from martyring themselves because they believed that Jesus is the son of God.

          14. mommypino says:

            I meant to say Witch, not Whitney. It’s early in the morning here and I haven’t had my tea yet.

          15. Witch says:

            @MP
            Someone dying for their cult leader isn’t proof that their cult leader is divine. It just proves that they were willing to die for what they believed in, doesn’t mean what they believed in was true.
            HG made a poll called “what did you sacrifice for the narcissist?”
            There are people who have raped their own children because their cult leader told them it was the right thing to do.

            Sam Vaknin being a Jew doesn’t really have anything to do with why he would lack understanding. Wasn’t jesus also a Jew? I am not a Jew and was raised with Christian beliefs.
            Many Non-Jews are not knowledgeable about Jewish messianic prophecy, yet they assume that the Jews do not have any logical reasons as to why they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. These are people who have dedicated their lives to studying the Torah and the Talmud, so I’m sure they are qualified in their understanding of the Jewish prophecies.

          16. mommypino says:

            Hi Witch,

            In my opinion, Sam Vaknin not growing in Christian faith dramatically affects his ability to understand Christianity and the belief systems that Christians have and the way Christians interpret the gospels. I was raised in a largely Catholic country and although one of my closest friends in high school is a Muslim, I do not pretend to know much about her religion. I remember asking her stuff that a profesor of mine told us about her religion and she said that my professor was either twisting the concepts or just honestly didn’t understand it. Even if I spend a few years at a University studying about the Islamic religion, my knowledge of it will only be very superficial as I did not live it. When you said that Jesus died before fulfilling the prophecy of the messiah and that he failed during his first coming shows a severe lack of understanding of the Christian religion. What was the basis of saying that Jesus failed in his second coming? The Jewish standard of success? But Christians do not follow their standards. That’s why we have our own religion. Based on our Christian religion, Jesus was far from having failed. Thousands of years later and he is still worshipped by many people and many are your fellow commenters here. How is that considered a failure? We believe that he rose from the dead, how is that a failure? Failure or success is very subjective and Vaknin’s standard of Jesus failing or not is his personal opinion which shows his lack of understanding of the Christian faith. So for him to make an analysis on something that he doesn’t fully understand is his right, but it doesn’t have any merit to me and many other Christians. To you and your fellow non Christians though, his arguments make sense, but not to us. You may have been raised with Christian beliefs but it doesn’t mean that you understood many of the belief systems that Christians have. Was it something that you resented or was it something that you studied with an open mind?

            I strongly believe that anyone who rapes their own child is not an empath. There is no excuse for that. There has been no historical account of any apostles committing rape or any violent acts. In fact when the bad-tempere Peter has cut the ear of the man arresting Jesus, Jesus reprimanded Peter and healed the man’s ear.

          17. Getting There says:

            I find this Jesus discussion interesting. For me personally and why I believe:
            Did Jesus exist or not? I believe He did. What has enhanced that belief is that the historical has shown He did but the constant is the confusion of His role. One thing I learned when I went to Israel is that the government in His time thought He was a rebel. Current Israel is a good portion of cultural Jews but practicing atheist. Most of the Jews, practicing or not, don’t discount His existence but discount Him being the Messiah. One group didn’t think He existed and tied it to writings from that time talking about a synagogue in an area that they thought there was none. Recent construction found a synagogue under ground in the area from the historical documents, so maybe they will find something else to tie to. What I love about archeology is that history can be discovered in ways we didn’t know or forgot. Jesus is mentioned in the Quran multiple times. I read somewhere that Mary is the only woman named in the Quran. The Muslim faith doesn’t discount His existence only a difference in His role apparently.
            Jesus empath or narcissist: I believe empath. What He taught was love, faith, hope, and forgiveness. Back then they stoned women for affairs. What did He do? Back then they practiced eye for eye, He taught forgiveness and turning the other cheek. He included women into His followers when women were viewed the way they were then. They had a huge role beyond what others would have allowed back then. The story of the Samaritan woman was Him reaching across to a group who had been ostracized at that time. He spent time crying alone, not looking for pity. He told those who saw Him with Moses and Elijah never to say anything; although, that would have increased His level of importance to some Jews back then. He healed and touched people that others ignored and ran from. He did the act and then moved on not doing it on a condition of anything in return. He died a horrific death when He could have left the area and protected Himself.
            Cult or not: interesting that this is on here considering I have seen someone on the internet say that HG runs a cult. According to that person we are all cult followers. I don’t believe it. Modern day cults have tied people to them through different means. Manson provided drugs, alcohol, and sex. He provided mind altering drugs and went for young impressionable. Koresh used punishment and the promise of his saving grace for them after death. Scientology uses the secrets you share when hooked up to those machines and fear of what happens when you leave, also they use punishments if you go against the rules. Jesus had followers from all ways of life. Young, older,
            people with money, and people without, men and women. What did Jesus promise? All He promised was death in this life really. Human nature is to want to reject death but that is all His followers have been promised. Some say that He says that people have to believe in Him and then they go to Heaven just for saying they believe. According to what I have seen in scriptures that is not what He says. He actually says that the path to Heaven is narrow and rocky. He further says that even if someone knocks and says that they know Him, he may not open the door for that person. Further He says people will be surprised by who will and who will not be in Heaven. He didn’t guarantee after life in Heaven. There is also scripture of the separation of goats and sheep and there are actions in it that are very empathic actions that will lead to not being put on the goat side. There is also scripture on the servants and the talents given. The ones who received the rewards were the ones who went out and did something with what they were given even with the concern of losing all to get more. The one rebuked is the one who buried it to give back as is. That’s why I believe Heaven will include individuals of all faith and no faith and not limited in just believing in Him. Also Jesus makes it clear that He didn’t come to start a new religion, He was a practicing Jew.
            I like your point, Mommypino, on the apostles. Death is one thing to accept. It’s part of life. Imagine the choice of saying “I don’t believe” and living until natural death; or the choice of being ripped apart alive by lions, or burned to death, being stoned, or being hung upside down. Supposedly Paul’s death was kind. I can’t imagine the mental anguish of knowing a knife will be cutting my head off. That may be quick in death but scary to think about. Acceptance of horrible pain anguishing deaths says a lot about their faith when their supposed “cult” leader was dead and not standing there telling them that they have to do this to earn His or anyone else’s love. A preacher I heard once talked about the group who gathered together to protect Nixon. They promised they would support, protect, and fight Watergate. Then one by one they went against their promise. Self protection is human. While some did that with Jesus, great movie about it happening in Japan that I can’t think of the name, many did not and still do not. There are believers all over the world who are persecuted to include killed, and yet all they have is hope.
            There is more to why I believe as I do but that would take up more room. I understand that others don’t agree on any of my points. I respect their choice to not believe as I would think they would respect mine to believe. In the end what harm is done in believing? People who follow the lessons share what they have with others without receiving anything in return; they care for each other; and they see each other as equal in the eyes of God with words and actions following. Sounds like a good world to me. Yes human nature and narcissists take over but that doesn’t take away from the good that is actually done when actually followed instead of the human nature of greed, hate, etc followed. We will all fail but isn’t it good to know you aren’t defined by your failings and can get up and be the person you can love and respect? That’s why I believe.

          18. mommypino says:

            That was so beautiful Getting There.

          19. Violetta says:

            St. Paul never met Jesus, and staunchly against what he also perceived as a cult until his experience on the road to Damascus.
            The events after that are what interest me. Ananias had an angelic version telling him to go to preach the Gospel to Paul. His response was, I believe, the Aramaic equivalent of, “Are you shitting me? That asshole?” There some measure of human truth there which makes the entire incident quite plausible.

          20. mommypino says:

            Lol it’s funny how humans are mostly the same even through thousands of years. I bet Ananias was a Geyser!

          21. Violetta says:

            Urgh

            WAS staunchly against

            angelic VISION

            There IS some measure

            (Shouldn’t post until tea has had time to kick in.)

          22. Witch says:

            @getting there

            You’ve seen people say HG runs a cult, but HG is not claiming to be the Messiah, god or the special “son of god” and trying to start a new a religion in which he encourages his follows to die for him as what Jesus did.
            Jesus may not have incited his followers to do harm against others but he encouraged them to sacrifice their lives for him by giving up their wealth and be broke, he encouraged them to neglect their family and responsibilities to follow him around instead and preach his message and also encouraged them to literally be killed and die for him. So I mean??? No he didn’t do drugs and have sex orgies that we know of but he had a lot of questionable and unrealistic expectations of his followers.
            And the fact he thought he was the messiah, that’s either narcissism or some kind of psychotic disorder. Empaths have the humility to be kind and help others without making such grandiose claims about why they are doing it.
            In fact an empath might have become a rabbi and over time make suggestions about how they could improve their practices, but they would not have claimed to be the messiah or on the same level as god and expect their followers to die for them.
            The fact that people think the concept of “forgiveness” and “mercy” started with Jesus and was never already part of Jewish teachings shows just how anti-Semitic Christianity is. Not that I’m favouring any religion over the other because they were all started by narcs anyway. I’m just pointing out a common misconception.

          23. mommypino says:

            “ And the fact he thought he was the messiah, that’s either narcissism or some kind of psychotic disorder. Empaths have the humility to be kind and help others without making such grandiose claims about why they are doing it.”

            But you are making an assumption again the Jesus was not telling the truth. That is an assumption that you can not prove. The same way that we cannot prove to you that Jesus is indeed son of God. It is a matter of faith. It either you believe or you don’t. So your argument that Jesus is a narcissist because he was making these grandiose claims only stands if he was indeed jut a regular person. Which you have no way of proving. Which Sam Vaknin also has no way of proving. So that is a big dead end to his analysis. If Adele says that she has one of the most amazing singers of today does that mean that she is grandiose and a narcissist? No, because she is telling the truth.

            “ The fact that people think the concept of “forgiveness” and “mercy” started with Jesus and was never already part of Jewish teachings shows just how anti-Semitic Christianity is.”

            It is not a fact it is your opinion. Christians also read the Old Testament which teaches about forgiveness and mercy so I don’t believe that what you are saying is accurate. Didn’t God forgive David when he asked for forgiveness for stealing a man’s wife and arranging for the man’s death? I don’t know of other Christians believe the way that you said but I do not. And also both Getting There and I are not anti-Semitic and we are both Christians. I believe that if you truly follow and believe Jesus’ teaching it’s impossible to hate a whole group of people.

          24. Getting There says:

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, Witch!
            You are absolutely correct that some of the cornerstones of Judaism is mercy and forgiveness as well as charity and others!! I apologize if I made it sound like that was a new concept started by Jesus. I was trying to compare His teachings against the practices that were popular of the leaders at the time. In my opinion there were individuals, as are now, who were narcissistic who used teachings to an extreme to control. I think maybe why Jesus was considered a rebel was not because he was trying to introduce these new ideas but to teach them as the way instead of what others were trying to push. He was a practicing Jew. I would like to think he wasn’t the only Jew who showed equality to all, but maybe as a leader of a group back then it was something to note. I should have made that clear and am sorry for causing misconceptions.

            I like how we can look at the same thing and see differences and share that! You looked at them giving up money and all to follow Him as a sign for control. I look at the same as a choice for the person to use their resources for service to all. The early Christians used the wealth they had as a community to feed and shelter all, even those who could not have afforded it otherwise. The part of leaving one’s family has been a hard concept for me to understand and one of which I struggle.

            I understand your point of Him saying He is the Son of God. If I didn’t believe that to be true, I can see how that is a sign of grandiosity or delusion. The miracles I believe attributed to Him solidify my belief in that statement of His. If someone makes a claim and couldn’t back it up with actions, then it would be hard to believe. I believe in the actions that are attributed to Him.

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Grandiosity can manifest in different ways, two examples of the main ones are:-

            “I am the wealthiest man on the south coast” – even though you are not. Not only grandiose but a lie.
            “I am the wealthiest man on the south coast” – and you are. Was it necessary to make such a pronouncement, often not, thus grandiose even though it is true.

          26. mommypino says:

            I totally agree HG. In the instance of Jesus though, in the point of view of believers, it was necessary for him to make the pronouncement to carry out his mission. Although I understand that in the point of view of non believers the announcement is a product of grandiosity.

          27. HG Tudor says:

            A believer may regard it as grandiose, it is less likely admittedly, but may still occur.

          28. mommypino says:

            It can indeed occur. But if the claim was indeed true and was necessary to carry out something essential then it would not be grandiosity. If I am applying for a job and I am good at something, it is necessary for me to claim that skill in order to get the job.

          29. HG Tudor says:

            Depends how you portray it and the context.

          30. mommypino says:

            Very true. And again, the portrayal of how and the context of why Jesus did that based on what believers believe doesn’t manifest grandiosity.

          31. HG Tudor says:

            From your perspective as a believer it does not evidence grandiosity, from others it does.

          32. mommypino says:

            We agree on the difference in perspectives and that is what I have been explaining all along. It is the kind of argument that only has merit to those with like minds.

          33. mommypino says:

            All that I’m saying HG is that SV’s analysis Jesus as a narcissist is a matter of opinion and not a fact. And I was just voicing out the other side.

          34. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed, that is correct.

          35. Witch says:

            @MP

            Yes Jesus failed by Jewish standards which are the only standards he could have failed at since messianic prophecy is Jewish. Jesus was Jewish and was claiming to be the Jewish Messiah in what is believed to be the oldest gospel, gospel of Mathew:

            Mathew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

            Mathew 10:5-8
            These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

            Several times Jesus said to his followers that he is here only for the Jews. He was not claiming to be a prophet but THE messiah. Therefore if he fails by Jewish standards he has failed.

            He encourages his followers to put him above their family: He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (Grandiosity, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy)

            He encourages his followers to die for him:
            He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.(Omnipotence, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy)

            Jesus tells a disciple to forget burying their dead father but to follow him around instead:
            Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
            But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
            (Lack of empathy, sense of entitlement)

            Encourages his followers not to take any money or essentials with them while traveling around preaching about Jesus but instead expect hand outs:
            Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. (Sense is entitlement, lack of empathy for his followers)

            The devil is in the details.
            There is probably more in Mathew alone but I don’t have the time to go through the whole book right now.
            I’m not saying what I’m saying to necessarily change your mind MP but for others who are all interested in the discussion.

          36. mommypino says:

            Hi Witch, I understand that you are not discussing these to change me into becoming an atheist. And I hope that it is clear as well that it is not my intention to convert you or anyone to be a believer or to tell anyone what is morally right or wrong. I only joined the discussion because it was a discussion on whether Jesus was a narcissist or not. If this was a discussion about what is right or wrong then I would not have partaken in it.

            I understand your perspectives as a non Christian regarding those passages from the Bible but again, your interpretation is not the same as the way Christians interpret them. I do not want to go into details as to what those passages mean to us because I will sound like I’m preaching. I just want to say once again that no one can prove that Jesus didn’t perform those miracles or that he is not the son of God. We can all make assumptions based on very limited information that is thousands of years old. This really is a matter of faith. So I will just agree to disagree with you. 🌸

          37. Getting There says:

            Thank you for that clarification, HG, on the two types of grandiosity!

            In Jesus’ case, I would personally not account His statement that He is the Son of God to be grandiose and show off. I would account it to giving credit to where His abilities come from and why He is able to perform the miracles He does. It can also be a safety issue. Look at what happened when He went back to Nazareth. They could only think of Him in His human family and then tried to kill Him.

          38. HG Tudor says:

            Of course you would not, you are a believer, which is your choice.

        2. Dr. HQ says:

          Witch,

          I like the way you think. Awesome points.

          1. Kiki says:

            Actually I disagree

            Some posters become indoctrined in HGs teachings , hence earlier posts of mine on others quickly calling other posters narcs because he said , she said ,with no real true evidence , then it becomes a case of group think manifested by our own personal experiences.

            I admire HGs teachings but I am v careful also it is easy to become indoctrinated into thinking everyone is a narc when they say something that ruffles the feathers or pisses one off.
            Critical thinking is needed.

            HG does not do this but it is an easy trap to fall into if you have experienced narcs in your life.

            Just my thought .

            Kiki

          2. Witch says:

            Hi Kiki,
            That is not what is happening with me. I have not become “indoctrinated” by HG’s work to the point that I am accusing people of being narcs without any evidence or criticial thinking.
            The real issue here is that I’m being critical about someone that many people admire

    3. Renarde says:

      Anna Bella Black

      I have rarely seen anything concerning Christanity in all its macro forms, which hasnt brought great hurt to humanity.

      I acknowledge that churches on local or micro levels are doing some good at grass roots level but I deeply question the motivations of those leaders. Deeply. Not all but some.

      You see, I was brought up as CoE. I.once read the bible. 14. But then I became even more divided. Plus the ENDLESS sundays in church. Or Sunday school when as a nine year old the Curate couldn’t take his eyes off my legs. I’m not sure Jesus said that was a-ok.

      I look at the bible and read deeply unsettling matters. The Gospels are different. As is Revelations. Now that one is odd. I like it, especially the part about The Whore of Babylon. I was called that the other day plus ‘Nasty Jezebel’ I was so amused! Females do not come out of the bible very well. Surely you can acknowledge that?

      Quote scripture if you wish. A lot of people are arguing that the End of Days are here. Probably not.

      I respect your right to believe in whatever you wish. But to quote, Hg, you will be challenged.

      I am sure you are a good person and I truly wish you well.

      1. Cat says:

        Guys, these reflections of Christianity and Jesus makes me think of how nonreligious Midrangers address the subject. It’s constantly this sentence:

        “I once read the bible from page one til the end. Every word.”

        I used to not understand that these were narcs. Always the same cliche. I did believe them though. Felt guilt and laziness of not having done the same. Of course I wasn’t aware they just popped that statement äout of thin air.

        1. Renarde says:

          Cat

          Tis a difficult thing. Indeed. As I have said, I was baptised and the confirmed. Actually I didnt say that precisely.

          I think for me, I try to separate the two issues. The first is the MONUMENTAL hypocrisy that goes on on both the CofE church and of course,the RCs. Technically because I was born of a Catholic who then attended a Catholic School, I am also a Catholic in the eyes of the church.

          My lovely Gran was also RC. She never forced her views on me so, she was pure.

          Perfectly fine that anyone can hold any views they want.

          I respect that as long as they respect mine. Quid pro quo.

          Guilt and laziness on your part as are absolutely misplaced.

          I have gone through a lot of pain in academic learning. A lot. Because of my field. But I have never ever been able to understand what I called the ‘Boundary Condition’ where narcs continually behave like absolute cunts and STILL they think they are good, upstanding and decent people. This is Cognitive Dissonance. I am being asked to believe two opposing views at once.

          They have not popped that statement out of the thin air. The Bible is in many ways very good. It needs to be treated with respect. And believe me, I’m about as Pagan as you come.

          Narcs read, discern and disassemble. All the time. Bible Quoran, Torah, even the Book of Shadows. My Gods the amount of people who use holy texts but fail to grasp the central message. Just dont be a cunt. Love they neighbour. There is usually something about worshipping a Godhead in there.

          I’m not a Zen Buddist but I see a lot of sense in that region. In fact last year I made it a point of fact to commune with the energy associated with The Buddha.

          Oh just dont get me started. I may never stop!

          Keep well.

        2. FYC says:

          Cat, I have read the Bible and I am not a narcissist. I am an HG confirmed empath. I am not a member of a church, nor very religious. I have not made the exact statement you reference (seems a bit odd), but if a topic comes up I may reference having read the Bible to indicate I have awareness of its contents. I do not think this is indicative and certainly not determinative that someone is a narcissist. Personally, I feel it is best not to classify someone a narcissist based upon a sentence or a single act.

          The Bible is like many things; it can be used for good or for harm. It can used to bring people together or divide them. God is often wielded as a power stick for those who want to assert He is ‘on their side’ and therefore one must submit or go to hell. Organized religion can be (and has been) used by narcissists who seek a compliant and unquestioning audience to exert their will upon for their own gain. Much corruption and hunger for power (a N trait) exists within organized religions of all kinds.

          I think it is better to look for what is driving anyone’s communication and behavior. Do they seek control or just offer an opinion? Do they provoke, manipulate, malign or obfuscate? Is a lack of empathy apparent? These are better indicators of a N.

          1. Cat says:

            FYC, just to clarify,

            having read the Bible doesn’t make anyone a narc, absolute ly not. But those weird outoftheblue short statements some narcs make (I understand now HG, it’s about instincive control in that moment), then refusing to talk any more about the subject. Of course I get why. They have not read the bible, they just popped a realtime lie there and then.

            And really, anthologies are read with sense and some thought, it’s very rare that it’s straight from word 1 until the last, chronologically in a day. Sounds…well… like it didn’t even happen.

          2. Violetta says:

            Nobody gets through Leviticus in one day. Or ever wants to read it again.

          3. FYC says:

            Cat, Thank you for your clarification. I see now what you meant. I cannot imagine anyone reading the Bible in one day. Why would anyone do this and what purpose would it serve? Anyone randomly making the comment you reference is very odd. Almost a Tourette’s-like attention seeking statement, and likely indicative.

        3. mommypino says:

          Cat, that is really interesting. I have felt the same way with people who told me that. I am actually into religion but I have not read the Bible from cover to cover.

          1. Another Cat says:

            Mommypino, Renarde, Violetta, FYC

            Thanks to HG though, I am not angry because they can’t help being like that, but it’s as if saying that you’ve read the Bible means you know everything about Christianity and Christian culture.

            I think I am talking about the Middle Midrange Type A. If one would ask them in a couple of years

            “So how were you during the covid-19 epidemic?”
            They would instantly go “Yes I remember that. I had 104 degrees fever day and night constantly for six weeks”

            Eleveneriffe.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed.

    4. Love says:

      Hi ABB. I hope you’re doing well. Thank you for your optimistic words and love… yet many a country have turned into theocracies spreading hope by using Gods words and then further brutalized and oppressed its people. I pray it’s the true God that comes to save us instead of messengers, aka charlatan opportunists.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Which one is the true god and how will we know?

        1. Love says:

          Don’t you already know ?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Of course, but I want to read why the reader determines that one is the true god and why.

          2. Love says:

            I’ve been having an uneasy feeling from the start of the pandemic. What if someone OR some group is playing God? Of course this person/group leader would be highly intelligent… they have a full grasp of human psychology. They thoroughly understand how to trigger people – how people behave within a group/herd mentality . Then this nefarious entity lays the domino pieces in the correct order. From the inaction of the government about the virus in Jan and Feb, to the lack of PPE, lack of understanding of the virus, the virility of the mutated virus in the West, the death of over 100k in the US in 3 months, to the economic devastation because of lockdowns, and mental health deterioration.
            Are all these events just coincidence?
            The nuclear bomb was created and just needed detonation. Just add a pinch of a policeman murdering an innocent black man…. And Viola! Let chaos ensue! Perhaps there is a master mind with a grand plan playing behind the scenes. And we the people are behaving exactly as they want us to. The main question is to what end?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I will be writing about this in the future.

          4. Love says:

            Looking forward to it!

          5. Kiki says:

            Playing God

            Would that be Bill Gates by the way 😉

            Kiki

          6. HG Tudor says:

            No

        2. Kiki says:

          Hg I think the true God is love , forgiveness and a positive life force.
          Humans have taken this and turned it into money making churches and religions.
          It has nothing to do with these institutions.
          Anything that veers from absolute goodness , is a false god.Money , greed , ego not to mention some charities and the carry on across several churches ALL false gods with mans need for greed and corruption.

          Just my thoughts

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for sharing your view. As you know, I subscribe to my own religion, however

            “Hg I think the true God is love , forgiveness and a positive life force. – whilst I find the existence of such a force unlikely, it might be the case and you are entitled to hold that view, it does not cause me any issue.
            Humans have taken this and turned it into money making churches and religions.” – entirely accurate. Which humans have used this and used it as a form of control? Can you guess? And then can you guess what the other group were conned into doing because of this method of control?

          2. Violetta says:

            “…one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change…..”

            – Douglas Adams

        3. Renarde says:

          This is a fascinating discussion. Especially the one concerning ‘Is there a higher power behind CV19?’

          I am in touch with a very prominent occult author. He told me that back in October, he had a vision. I cant say what it is because he wants to write about it. But what he said shocked me.

          Around that time I had been saying to him, something is not right. I couldnt quite put my finger on it but I knew it revolved around Boris, Brexit and the peroging of Parliament. Was more than just a feeling. Something was DEEPLY wrong.

          All went quiet over Xmas. CV19 was estimated to be circling in the UK mid Jan.

          Trumps words yesterday about George Floyd were utterly beyond offensive. It’s been pointed out to me that Trump may have dementia. Coupled with his NPD, this will make him erratic and unstable.

          Biden is rumoured to have dementia. God only knows what is going to happen to your beautiful country.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Trump does not have dementia.

          2. Renarde says:

            Hg

            Really? Wow.

          3. Mercy says:

            Renarde, “Trumps words yesterday about George Floyd were utterly beyond offensive.” If you are talking about the words said yesterday during his press conference, I wanted to point out that most journalist reported his words out of context. Not that I’m defending Trump. A terrible case of hives is more appealing to me than listening to that guy. I’ve just been doing my own fact checking lately because both sides of the news has been misleading and they are getting bolder with their bias.

          4. Renarde says:

            Mercy

            With the greatest of respect, do one. I watched the damn video. Maybe you should have too. Eh?

          5. Violetta says:

            HG, I usually accept your judgment on narcs without question, but on what do you base your determination that Trump doesn’t have dementia or Alzheimer’s on top of NPD? I lived in NYC when he was just another slimy businessman trying to crash society with his trophy wife. He was always pushy, but he was never this hostile or incoherent. At auditions with long lines and long discussions to kill time, actors with hospitality day jobs favorably compared working for Trump with working for “Queen of Mean” Leona Helmsley.

            Is the national level of criticism he’s getting the predominant factor here?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            1. I know he does not.
            2. It is the manifestation of his narcissism and the more he receives Challenge Fuel, the more his narcissism (given the school of narcissist that he is) responds in a hostile and incoherent manner. What is a Word Salad? An incoherent response. When he was businessman, he was not receiving anything like the wounding and challenges that he receives now and both these factors have increased in recent weeks. Remember, he is not a Bill Clinton or Barack Obama.

          7. Renarde says:

            Vi

            Yes, that is interesting. Trump does remind me of aspects of PN. For a while I couldn’t work out if he had dementia or was just getting more malignant with age.

          8. Mercy says:

            Renarde, I did thank you. I was simply saying that most news reports quoted him out of context yesterday in case you didn’t see the video. Also, stating that I’m having a hard time getting facts from news sources. Glad you got the full story.

          9. Renarde says:

            Mercy

            Incredibly simple. You always go to the primary source of evidence. In this case, video. I watched it on Sky.

            You think a narc cant go any lower and then they do.

            How on earth can you defend the indefensible? Moral compass? Search around for it. I’m sure it’s there, somewhere.

            Your post is full of weasel words my love. Any idiot can switch on the gogglebox and see what Trump said. Pointing to the sky he was, saying George Floyd would be proud of the reduction in unemployment numbers. Looking on from heaven, apparently.

            Jesus Christ woman. Get a fucking grip.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Make your point, but ease back from the ad hominem, you are sailing close.

          11. Renarde says:

            Hg noted and I have apologised for my tone.

            Thank you

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Jolly good. Matter has been addressed.

          13. Mercy says:

            Renarde,

            I’m not really sure where I went wrong here. I was making conversation with you regarding the press and my frustration that I can’t get accurate news. I was surprised by your original response but didn’t want to get into a word war over a subject that we share the same views on. Since you went on to attack my “moral compass” and then insult my intelligence by saying “Any idiot can switch on the gogglebox and see what Trump said. Pointing to the sky he was, saying George Floyd would be proud of the reduction in unemployment numbers. Looking on from heaven, apparently.”

            Ill point out that you illustrated my point by doing exactly what the media did. Every headline read almost exactly what you said but since you watched the press conference you know what he actually said was this “Equal justice under the law must mean that every American receives equal treatment in every encounter with law enforcement regardless of race, color, gender, or creed. They have to share fair treatment from law enforcement. They have to receive it. We all saw what happened last week. We can’t let that happen. Hopefully, George is looking down right now and saying ‘this is a great thing that’s happening for our country.’ It’s a great day for him. It’s a great day for everybody. This is a great day for everybody. This is a great, great day in terms of equality.”

            Don’t be America Renarde, don’t be conned.

          14. mommypino says:

            I saw a meme saying “I say we close down media for 30 days and Dee 80% of The world’s problems go away.”

          15. mommypino says:

            *see not Dee

          16. Mercy says:

            Haha Mommypino, Its probably true.

          17. Renarde says:

            Mercy

            Firstly, I want to apologise for my tone, which was abhorrent. You clearly are intelligent but if it came out that way
            , then I’m sorry.

            I utterly agree with bias in media. Utterly. But this was primary evidence. I am very sure Trump has been advised against. Like you, I always look for bias. Sometimes very hard to spot.

            You raise an extremely good tangential point though, what happens when streaming visual media is doctored. It wont be far off before we cannot tell a deep fake I think. For example, a budding singer had her head spliced onto a female pornstar’s body for her video.

            It wasn’t perfect but it was better than I thought it was.

            Again, apologies.

          18. Mercy says:

            Renarde, No worries, he gets my blood boiling too. I wonder if they have considered a muzzle for him. The fact that he is obsessed with the media and seeing his face on every news outlet has given us the opportunity to see the war between politics and media. Unfortunately the viewers are the casualties. I just want accurate information so I can make my own informed decisions.

          19. Renarde says:

            Mercy

            Quite so. And thank you for accepting my apology.

            Viewers are casualties. A lot of media is aimed at the lowest common denominator.

            Sometimes I wonder if Trump is deliberately fanning the flames or whether he is just that stupid!

          20. wildviolet22 says:

            Mercy- I think so too about the news. Usually what I do now is go to allsides, and look at how the same story is worded side by side, from left, center and right leaning news sources. And if people are getting their news from highly emotionally charged “news” sources full of loaded language and spin, and aren’t aware of this type (and other types) of media bias, especially if they only stick to their own “side” and aren’t exposing themselves to different perspectives, it’s no wonder we are having problems. :/

  18. Violetta says:

    .. and now that I’ve read it:

    Yep. That’s it in a nutshell.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed.

  19. Mercy says:

    HG, Thank you for this one. I needed your common sense logic today. I remember you once said that narcissist numbers are growing. Its apparent now after reading this and seeing the division created by so many different hands seeking their own piece of control. The lack of controlled environment that is part of the narcissist creation is no longer a secret behind closed doors. Its spilling onto our streets and can be seen every time you walk outside or turn on the news.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Correct and you are welcome.

  20. K says:

    HG
    I love when you use Alliteration in your writing. My IRL empath has uttered: “Who does that?!?” more times than I can remember and my response has always been: “A narc.”

    Your translation is unequaled.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you K.

      1. K says:

        My pleasure HG
        Joe Biden (Former Vice President of the United States) stated that the President’s “narcissism has become more important than the nation that he leads” during a unity speech yesterday.

        It was a beautiful moment!

        1. lisk says:

          Hate to break it to you, K, but Biden’s just another narcissist.

          1. K says:

            Damn skippy, Biden’s a narcissist through and through lisk!

            Challenge fuel, Trump shot right back at Biden.

          2. lisk says:

            Narc on Narc action here.

            I’d get the popcorn but I really need to lose some of this Lockdown Lard!

          3. Violetta says:

            As we have all learned from Narcsite, there are different flavors of Narcissism. Biden’s is probably less dangerous than Trump’s.

          4. lisk says:

            I’m not so sure about that comparison/contrast.

          5. K says:

            You and me both! I ate way too many chocolate bars.

        2. CandaceMarie says:

          K
          Yes I saw that too! It was amazing!

          1. K says:

            CandaceMarie
            Just hearing the words Narcissist, narcissism or gas lighting on TV is music to my ears! I have been hearing it more and more lately.

        3. SMH says:

          K, I was pleased too. Biden might have narc qualities, as they all do, but he has suffered a lot of personal losses in his life and he seems to have empathy. Wouldn’t have been my first choice but I can live with it for sure. Guessing Klobuchar will not be his VP pick due to her failure to prosecute Chauvin years ago, at least from what I read. She has been strangely quiet.

          1. K says:

            SMH
            Klobuchar is toast!

            Whenever I hear deny, distract, deflect, gas lighting, blame game and Narcissism, I think: Finally we are getting somewhere!

          2. Violetta says:

            I think she was already gone from that office when there were allegations about Chauvin, but I’ve read that she handled similar cases poorly.

            My vocal coach is hoping for Warren as VP on the ticket, I’m hoping for Harris, but at this point I just want to get the current administration OUT. Both Dubya and Obama had rioting during their terms, and they didn’t handle it all that well, but they didn’t fuck it up THIS badly.

            If a Dem administration sucks, we can vote them out later. If a Republican admin following sucks, we vote them out. It has worked, kind of, for over 200 years.

            What worries me about Trump is he might use all this as a pretext for a coup, and end elections altogether. Obama’s flavor of Narcissism wouldn’t let him do anything that extreme, because he wanted to Look Nice and have that legacy, but Trump’s Narcissism has no such restraints.

          3. lisk says:

            Always question what happen to his first wife.

          4. SMH says:

            lisk, question what? She died in a car accident. Hope you’re not going to start in with some tin foil hat stuff.

        4. SMH says:

          K, I think I just heard that Klobuchar announced the charges against the other cops. Guess she is trying to erase her past but I agree that she is toast. Biden cannot count on the Black community for votes if he chooses her. Hope his advisers drum that into his head.

          1. K says:

            SMH
            The charges have been upgraded to 2nd degree murder for Chauvin and the other three are being charged with aiding and abetting 2nd degree murder.

            I either read or heard that Klobuchar is out.

  21. Violetta says:

    Oh, sheeeeit. Was going to confine myself to “absolutely vital purchases” for the foreseeable future, but given the “new normal,” it looks like this is one. TV and online news aren’t helping all that much.

  22. lickemtomorrow says:

    Just to add another thought, and I think it confirms again what HG has said here … did anyone notice the rapidity with which his wife filed for divorce? About 5 minutes after the whole incident went down. I’d say it’s possible after (who knows how many) years of abuse, this woman is finally able to make her escape. She’s taken the opportunity and run with it. If anyone needs a consult with you right now, HG, I’d say it’s her.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I agree.

    2. Witch says:

      She has probably been fearing for a while that one day he would kill her. If he’s like this is public you can only imagine what he’s like in private

  23. Cat says:

    urgh, but why do i have to buy this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You do not have to, but US $ 5 is very little for the information provided. You do not have to eat the pizza, but if you would like to, it will cost you money. You do not have to see the latest Star Wars film, but if you would like to, it will cost you money.Also see my answer given to Brooke elsewhere in the comments, Cat.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Same reason I had to pay for glasses yesterday. I think I have the right to be able to see properly without being charged, but the optometrist thought otherwise, and it appears that thought is widely held up by the public who accept it and pay without question.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I would add that purchasing this is a choice. Being able to see is not.

    3. Empath007 says:

      Cat, I see comments like this often. I think the most logical way to approach understanding paying for HG’s work is that he is an author… when I want a book about a particular subject matter I am interested in, I go to my local book shop to purchase it. As a musician people have often wanted me to work for “exposure” but honestly that’s a little insulting, given the amount of time and effort I put into my craft. His charge is reasonable, for the article being offered. H.G. is a writer… he can’t share all his expertise for free.

      With that said. No one has the right to make you feel bad about purchasing it or not. Anyone who questions how you choose to spend your money . .. can mind their own business and you should ignore them.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Fair observations.

    4. leighwarren17 says:

      Cat, if you use the discount code toiletpaper19, you only have to pay $2.50.

      I hope I was allowed to say that Mr. Tudor.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You were allowed to say that but it doesn’t apply to this item!

  24. Klaudia says:

    Loved it!! Brilliant article

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Klaudia.

  25. Witch says:

    I’ve just read it, it was amazing!
    So many of my views have been challenged by learning about narcissism.
    I’ve been part of feminist groups in the past and now I know why everyone who was part of those groups ended up falling out with one another and why fights errupted every second day, and everyone wondering why their was no “solidarity”; narcissism.
    I dated someone who told me that several of her female family members work for domestic abuse charities but “when they go home they all beat their kids.”

    The question I how do we manage as non-narcs within the causes that we care about?
    If you’re fighting against narcissists then being “peaceful and empathic” is unlikely to lead to any significant changes in governance and policy, right?
    How did we gain human rights written into law? by peacefully considering all positions or by narcs needing to gain control over other narcs disrupting the “peace” by giving them what they want?
    Of course if narcs didn’t exist in the first place, we wouldn’t have as many human rights violations but as they do, what do we do?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The companion piece deals with such matters, Witch.

  26. Geminimom says:

    This has enlighten my view of who I questioned of being a narc at work. We have a new chief and she’s got her motives. They are bad.

    Wow, this is strong information. I will definitely educate this to the ones I trust.

  27. Dolores Haze says:

    It also explains to me why I as an empath feel very uncomfortable in this situation. In my social media feed it’s basically a fight between people accusing each other of “grieving inappropriately”. I kid you not, it’s an army of #blackouttuesday black squares against an army of #blacklivesmatter posts with links to protests, donation sites and rallies, and they say vicious things to one another. Sometimes they are people from one friends’ circle or even one family unit. I felt guilty for being unable to pick a side. My heart was breaking when I read that this person was calling out for his mum before he died – I couldn’t bring myself to watch the video after reading this, I’m a mum myself. Now, after reading your article, I understand what’s at the core of it all. And the understanding brought some much needed relief. Thank you, HG. Your work is so important.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. I urge every reader to share the link to this work in all pertinent places because by doing so you really do increase the lees here of this work many times over.

  28. lisk says:

    Dear HG,

    I just purchased and will read with a glass of wine in a few. I really hope it says what I want it to say. I will confirm later.

    In the meantime, is there anything that can be done to ground these helicopters that are feeding the melodrama in my city?

    With best regards,
    lisk

    1. lisk says:

      Okay, so I couldn’t wait for the wine.

      I agree with you for the most part. But I didn’t see you discuss George Floyd’s narcissism ($20 or not, he was doing “what he wanted, to who he wanted, when he wanted and how he wanted”), or the filming bystander’s narcissism (I can’t see the empathy in watching a man die).

      I certainly see narcissism (especially this particular outbreak) as knowing no color or gender bounds.

      I still wonder if I am the narcissist for wanting it to stop. It is violent and invasive on so many levels. Or is that my Savior side speaking?

      Knowing about is good and healthy and is a necessary first step. But what to effectively do about it?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        1. I do not see any evidence to support the suggestion that George Floyd is a narcissist
        a. We do not know if he unwittingly tendered a counterfeit note, this can happen to many people as they have received one from someone else as they are in circulation
        b. Even if he knowingly tendered a counterfeit note, that in itself does not mean he is a narcissist. He could well be a normal operating with no emotional empathy towards a stranger store owner (see Understanding Emotional Empath) or his emotional empathy has been reduced through an external stressor (he was broke owing to loss of employment through lockdown) (see Why Am I Behaving Like a Narcissist). Therefore there was no merit in such a discussion.
        2. Even if he was a narcissist, that does not merit his death at the knee of a police officer.
        3. The filming bystander is not a narcissist based on filming the scene
        a. Such action is only indicative, not determinative
        b. They may have wanted to intervene (exercising emotional empathy) but a presence of an external stressor prevented that (four police officers) resulting in a reduction of emotional empathy manifesting through direct intervention
        c. They may well have intervened in an alternative fashion (pointing out that Mr Floyd was distressed, unable to breathe etc), their intervention may well have been to film the incident for evidential purposes because even though they were not able to physically intervene, they still wanted to do something to demonstrate the behaviour that was unfolding was wrong. Of course, they may have just been a rubber necker who thought “Cool, some footage to garner some likes on FB” and had no regard at all for Mr Floyd.
        I determined that a discussion of the bystander was peripheral and potentially distracting to the three main points I wanted to advance in this article. The behaviour of the police officer and the presence of Reason N (1) in the reactions and responses thereafter and (2) with regard to behaviours in the US and the world more generally.

        1. lisk says:

          Thank you for your thorough response— except for #2, which reads like an emotional response, and ‘merited death’ is certainly not the point of my question.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Quite the contrary, it was a logical one.

          2. WuzFoxy says:

            The fundamental flaw in this debate as to whether or not GEORGE FLOYD was a narcissist is the assumption of his guilt of committing a crime. The assumption of guilt nullifies/makes false the claim for narcissism because absolute guilt is necessary to the analysis. A hypothetical statement would avoid this.

            I grow weary of my need to defend Mr. Floyd by reminding people that the law dictates, “innocent until proven guilty.” I believe in most cases this assumption is insidious racism, elitism or stereotyping rearing its destructive head. Most of us want to think we are beyond this kind of thing but I doubt many of us are. I certainly am not.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            WF, thank you for your comment.

            1. The article is not about GF being a narcissist. It might be that you know this, but in case you have not read it, the article is not debating that fact.
            2. If you are referring to what has been written in the comments, then
            a. The individual concerned is innocent until proven guilty. That is the golden thread which runs through judicial systems.
            b. Assuming Mr Floyd was guilty does not make him a narcissist, although I see that one commenter has made this incorrect leap. More factors must be reviewed and analysed before forming any view that he was or was not a narcissist. Therefore, whether he was a narcissist or not does not hinge on whether he was guilty or not, or whether there has been (and I agree with you on this for the reason stated above) as assumption of guilt. Absolute guilt is not a criterion for determination, it is but one factor.
            3. You do not need to defend Mr Floyd in this regard in this instance, I understand you may have to do so elsewhere.

          4. lisk says:

            I believe I commented on this elsewhere but HG has not approved my comment, so I will not bother repeating it here unless it’s published and I can require it here.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You do not have any comments in moderation responding to WF.

          6. lisk says:

            I know that. I made comments elsewhere to other comments (yesterday/day before) and they have not been published, at least last time I checked.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Your comment was on the thread responding to WF, hence the explanation was provided by reference to WF.

          8. lisk says:

            My apologies for not being exact.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Not a problem.

          10. lisk says:

            My assumption, as I mentioned in a previous post, is that you never know who you’re gonna get in the cop lottery, so it’s best to stay as far away as you can from them.

            Hence why I question anyone’s entanglement with the law, including my own.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            1. A certain individual entangles with the law owing to the need to assert control.
            2. A certain individual entangles with the law owing to emotional thinking.
            3. A certain individual entangles with the law being a recipient of another’s need to assert control.

          12. lisk says:

            All three make sense. I appreciate the logic.

          13. K says:

            When I see I cops, I turn around and walk away. Poof, disappear into the crowd, blend in, GTFO, never draw attention to yourself, ever. Cops are dangerous.

        2. Witch says:

          For some reason my “likes” are not working, so I just wanted to say thank you for this analysis HG.
          I’m an empath but if I was in a desperate situation and needed to eat or feed someone else I might engage in petty crime.
          For me personally, using a counterfeit note in a chain supermarket wouldn’t particularly make me feel that guilty.
          I could probably do a lot worst depending on the circumstances. Giving that I am predominantly a carrier empath if enough resentment built up inside of me I could probably even kill. If I were a slave in the 1700’s I could poison my “master” (who would likely be a narcissist) and feel no way about it. The only concern I would have is getting caught.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome, Witch.

          2. StrongerWendy says:

            You think Carriers more likely to kill…?

          3. blackcoffee30 says:

            I would help you with the poisoning, but then cry about it, Geyser. 🙂

          4. Witch says:

            @strongerwendy

            We are more likely to remain resentful towards the narcissist long term and resentment erodes emotional empathy which may make it easier for us to carry out a narcissistic act such as murder in the “right” circumstances

          5. Witch says:

            @blackcoffee
            Lol! That’s why I wouldn’t let you help me because I wouldn’t want you to bear the guilt. I’d ask Narc Angel

          6. MommyPino says:

            Well I’m a combination of Geyser and Carrier (and Saviour and a little Martyr). So I guess I can murder somebody then cry about it and apologize to the dead body while I bury him.

          7. Leolita says:

            My likes are not working either…. it has been like that for some time.

        3. kel says:

          The filming bystander was a teenager, a 17 year old high school girl, who was traumatized afterwards. She was harassed for filming it, but she said if she hadn’t, four police officers would have gotten away with it.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for that information Kel.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            I think it brave of her to film it knowing that she could have had her phone taken and/or ended up in the same situation as Floyd. What else was there for her to do? Call the police? We have evidence of what occurred regardless her intention. I say Bravo to her.

          3. fox says:

            Aww, I’m sure that is really traumatizing, but good on her for doing that. It’s so sad that video evidence and public outrage are absolutely necessary to catch these demons and force our government to take action. Like here in Georgia with the Arbery case, had the video not been leaked those men still might be walking free and even “heroes” in their neighbors’ eyes. That makes me so ill I want to burn things down myself (but I’m behaving myself, for now).

        4. fox says:

          Well stated, HG.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

        5. Bibi says:

          About the counterfeit money–In my youth when I tended money/operated a register. I had a woman give me a fake $10 bill. I informed her of it and she had no idea–she actually thought it was cool, believe it or not. Many are not aware that they are fake.

          That is one of the things they train you on when you work with legal tender is how to identify the counterfeit ones and what to look for. It actually is very interesting.

          As a side note, I had a woman give me Canadian coins and when I rejected him because in the US you can only accept US currency, she responded, ‘But it’s money!’

          Facepalm.

          1. Bibi says:

            Sorry for the typos. I am just now having my tea.

      2. Kiki says:

        Yes Lisk

        The person who filmed it , I was wondering about that also .
        Wouldn’t instinct make you jump in to push the police officer away ,or at least reason with him , not just stand there recording a man dying.

        I could not watch the video .

        I cannot get my mind around that .

        Kiki

        1. HG Tudor says:

          “Wouldn’t instinct make you jump in to push the police officer away ,or at least reason with him , not just stand there recording a man dying.” – see above comment, already addressed.

          1. mollyb5 says:

            HG , YES , I could not help but go up to the cops and say you are killing him !!!!!or something ..i would be a nervous wreck ….I would be freaking out and not able to hold a camera still ..my phone would never have that much battery life either . I have been known to run after a thief ( as a teenager ) and help a mother with her child and lots more ….I don’t care to share.

  29. casleighmay says:

    This is the most poignant and factual article I have read about this terrible situation so far. I am making sure everyone I know hears about this, it should be published for the world to read.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you, please do so.

  30. Leigh says:

    As always, an incredible read! A must read for everyone! I couldn’t put it down! Thank you, Mr. Tudor, for once again opening our eyes.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome

      1. Leigh says:

        I just tried to have a conversation with someone about this subject and how I believed the cause of all this is because of Narcissism. They said they couldn’t understand how the cops could be so stupid especially when they are being filmed. I said its because they’re a narcissist. Their response was, “This isn’t about them being a narcissist, this is about the cops thinking they are above the law and that they’re just really stupid.” I tried to explain to this person that Narcissism is a personality disorder that causes a person to not having empathy and they have a need for control and power. They just didn’t want to hear it. They said, “You think you’re an expert because you read a book on Narcissism.” At that point I gave up. I felt like I wouldn’t get through to them.

        What do we do in situations where you can’t get through to the other person? This person was clearly getting agitated, maybe even criticized, by me saying this, so I thought it was best to back off. I find people look at me sometimes like I have 10 heads whenever I bring up Narcissism. People are completely in denial and just don’t understand what Narcissism really means and when I try to explain it, they think I’m nuts.

        How do you get people to not be so obstinate?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You do not.

          You explain in a constructive and measured way. If they wish to try to understand they will engage with you.

          If they come back with insults such as “You think you’re an expert because you read a book on Narcissism.” their mind is currently closed to the issue and you did the right thing to stop trying to explain. People do not like to be TOLD how to think, but you can offer a differing view or perspective for them to consider and that is likely to prove more fruitful, but there will always be some individuals where there is no point in persevering. It is of course frustrating when people do not “get it” but there is only so far you can go to try to assist the, in their understanding. There are many who will listen and get it, do not be put off by the smaller number who will not and remember, ultimately you understand and it is your defences which matter above all else.

          1. Leigh says:

            I find with many individuals, especially this individual in particular, if you are expressing an idea that doesn’t align with their ideas or beliefs, they immediately try to invalidate it. In these situations, I try to broach the subject matter very delicately & with kid gloves. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I often will back off when i see I can’t get through.

            What was interesting about this particular conversation was that they kept asking why and kept saying they couldn’t understand it. When I offered my opinion, they immediately tried to invalidate it.

            The sad thing is that if people aren’t willing to open their mind to other possibilities, this situation will never be rectified.

          2. Violetta says:

            Leigh:

            People love their narratives. Got in a debate with a multiethnic group about OJ Simpson. One PoC said most white people assumed he was guilty because of racism. I said, “Not necessarily,” and he asked me why I was so sure he was guilty.

            “My dad was the same way. He’d seem all calm and good-humored, but if you contradict him or interrupt him, it was like Jekyll and Hyde. He’d clout you if he didn’t like your answer, and he’d clout you and yell, ‘HELLO?!!’ if you didn’t answer, and of course he’d clout you if you were crying from the pain of being clouted. He was completely out of control.”

            His face cleared, because I wasn’t basing my opinion on racism. Then he said, “Well, you think that way because of your father, but a lot of people are just racist.”

        2. lisk says:

          Leigh, THANK YOU very much for sharing this exchange with us.

          HG offers up the perfect explanation of the “stupidity” behind the cop’s action. His logic deliciously cuts through all sorts of racial/gender/orientation narratives. And people still do not want to see it.

          People still want to hold onto the narratives through which narcs wield power and to which empaths are addicted.

          I guess it’s similar to when we are in the thick of it in a romantic relationship with the narc. We don’t want to see the logic that a friend or family member offers us.

          Even when we first learn of HG and then interact with him and his logic, it can still be tough to take. It can still be VERY difficult to go even when you know.

          I guess then here we go again: We need to stay away from the many narratives’s narcs and have empathy for the many narratives’s addicts.

          1. Leigh says:

            Lisk, please also see my response to Mr. Tudor above, I feel like even if people are confused about a particular situation, many still aren’t open-minded enough to look deeper. I also find that if they themselves don’t come up with the thought or idea themselves, then it must not be valid. I agree that many don’t see the logic. They either can’t or won’t.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Leigh

          That was a very rude response to you. If that occurs again you might consider the following:

          “No, I’m not an expert. I just thought you were among the intelligent who are open to discussion about possibilities for motive and possible change instead of pointlessly and repeatedly asking why”.

          I would probably add “like an idiot” or “I stand corrected” to the end but I don’t suggest that for everyone.

          1. Leigh says:

            NarcAngel, yes it was a very rude response. I’ve known this individual for a long time and have learned that they can be a bit close-minded and I have to tread lightly with them. Every once in awhile I can say something to them and it may stick or at the very least, plant a seed. Believe me, I would’ve like to react they way you suggest and alot of times, I do. I can’t always hold my tongue. I think this blog has taught me that sometimes its better to hold my tongue, especially when dealing with someone who can’t have an open discussion.

            The bigger problem I’m finding now is that alot of people in my life aren’t open to discussion. They only see what they want to see and will only recognize a solution, if they are the ones that came up with the solution.

            I will say this, in my head, I was thinking, “Whatever, jackass. This is the exact reason why I can’t stand having conversations with you.”

  31. FoolMe1Time says:

    Will do HG.

  32. FYC says:

    HG, This is one of your most important works. Your keen insight combined with your ingenious application to real world situations is exactly what is needed. You deftly deliver the unbiased truth of what drives so many persistent and perplexing, individual and en masse human behaviors. Offering this timely analysis is both commendable and greatly appreciated. I will share this widely. I can’t thank you enough for staying at the pulse of everything that matters most and sharing your unparalleled wisdom. Incredibly well done.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you FYC.

  33. FoolMe1Time says:

    Brilliant piece HG, but then I wouldn’t expect anything less then that from you! Now if we could only get the rest of the Country to read it!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you FM1T. Make sure you share the link across social media.

  34. fox says:

    Excellent article and thank you for writing about what’s happening here, HG. You speak a lot of truth.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Fox.

  35. Sweetest Perfection says:

    100% accurate. Chapeau, chapeau, chapeau!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you SP.

  36. blackcoffee30 says:

    This interesting read is going to have to marinate for a while.

  37. CandaceMarie says:

    Excellent explanation HG! I had a feeling Chauvin could be a narcissist. Who else could commit such a horrible act in broad daylight with witnesses recording everything. He even looked like he was enjoying every minute of it. The video was definitely hard to watch.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  38. StrongerWendy says:

    Well written. And sobering.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you SW, do ensure its existence is circulated.

  39. alexissmith2016 says:

    Firstly what Chauvin did is beyond evil and there is nothing I could say at all to articulate well enough how physically sick it makes me feel.

    But this article was exemplar. I’ve been reading this blog daily since shortly after its inception and whilst this is a very difficult subject matter, the article is certainly up there with my favorites for describing narcissists and why they behave how they do. And from this alone, I have learned an incredible amount. We are all in a heightened state of emotions around this incident and reading articles about it may trigger these emotions, but this was coupled with emotions of huge relief which prompted me to want to get on my hands and knees and cry. I feel overwhelmed with knowledge about these evil people.

    There was also a slight sidenote around whistleblowing which I had always wondered about and now I know the answer categorically. HG I simply cannot thank you enough. This article is worth so much more than $5 and I hope that many millions of people purchase it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. Be sure to bring it to the attention of others as this is necessary.

      1. I have already told some people who are interested in psychology about it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          HG approves

  40. MommyPino says:

    HG, this is a brilliant, superb, flawless analysis (I’m out of adjectives). For $5 we have the path to real tangible solutions. This is an unbelievable bargain for your expert consultation on what is going on and how to approach something that is costing the whole country millions of dollars of damages and precious lives.

    I am so deeply saddened by the death of Floyd. My husband occasionally gets counterfeit money from his patients and he never even think of calling the cops on them. He just informs them that they paid him counterfeit because sometimes the person is not aware that their money is counterfeit. It is so incredibly sad that an innocent person lost his life over a $20 counterfeit money. Based on many accounts Floyd was a gentle giant and I even saw a video of him talking and there was a childlike innocence about him. I don’t know if he was special needs and sometimes special needs people have mannerisms or behaviors that are easily misunderstood and can cause people to judge them. And then the color of his skin I’m sure has added to that judgment. It is so sad and tragic. I finally had the courage to watch the video last Sunday and I heard the bystanders asking the cop to stop what he was doing. I was thinking that if I was there I would have probably be screaming at the cop and plead and out of desperation even approach them and physically remove the cop’s knee from his neck. And that may be the white privilege that they are talking about. Unlike the black bystanders who couldn’t act because they are afraid that they would be killed by the cops, I don’t have that much fear because all of my interactions with cops have been pleasant (from a couple of traffic violations which they just forgave).

    I have been avoiding certain social media outlets lately and have unfollowed a lot of people in my IG because I saw black and white thinking and I couldn’t stand it. I was following a parenting page on IG that promotes tolerance and diversity but after seeing them advocate blanket hatred for cops I have unfollowed them. I realized that the moderator is probably an unaware narcissist. I called her out and said that cops have children too and have said that my cousin is married to a cop who is a good person, husband and dad to their two young kids. She told me to get off of her page defending cops like that and she said that there are no good cops. I told her that I already unfollowed her and that she is not that different from the psychopath cop for advocating blanket hatred against a group of people and that was the end of my encounter with her. Her following has increased though because I guess hatred sells.

    Your analysis is the most objective and insightful analysis that I have ever seen. Nothing else compares or even comes close. I will promote this when I can to the other places that I go to. Thank you for all of the work that you do.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you MP, be sure to make others aware of its existence as far and as wide as possible. It is an absolute steal for what it tells you.

    2. Love says:

      MommyPino, I’ve also witnessed the black and white thinking on social media. From people I admire. There is a bullying happening : if you are not doing x,y,z then you support hate and racism.
      No, I do not want to be pushed and forced into a hate fest. I know what I believe, what I feel.

      1. mommypino says:

        Love, you are totally right. There is bullying happening. I see comments that say if you didn’t post this or that or if you don’t post anything or if you posted this but not that then that means you are a racist or you are complicit. So they judge you based on what and when you posted, what if you happened to be busy that day? Or you haven’t seen the video yet and wasn’t informed yet but saw the subsequent things that happened? I mean, they are basically bullying people to behave on their terms. They may not be NPD but it is definitely a very narcissistic behavior. Love, you have described it very well.

    3. Bibi says:

      MP, I do understand your pov of one group’s hatred for another but the difference is that one chooses to be a cop. One does not choose to be black. Not all cops are bad, certainly–we have seen some recent examples of that not being the case, but there are A LOT of bad ones who abuse their power. The Mpls Police Dept has been notorious for being pricks.

      People are outraged and angry right now–police do not have a right to harass and bully and murder their citizens.

      We see the racism in the Central Park Karen case (Amy Cooper) a white woman who calls the cops to claim that a black man is harassing her and threatening her life, when he did no such thing. She was reaching for this corrupt system that she knew would be on her side.

      ‘Yeah? You piss me off and I’ll call the cops on you and play the victim!’ She was using her ‘superiority’ over him in that moment. If one is a cop, by very nature, you are someone who trusts in a ‘system’ of ‘rules’. Sometimes the system is wrong.

      There is such a hatred that prevails throughout American culture–sometimes it is more obvious but in other instances it emerges as a whisper. But it’s still there. Literally, what else do we have if there is no value to human life?

      1. lisk says:

        Ultimately, it is all about power. Humans with power. That power will be handled benignantly or malignantly, depending upon the person wielding it.

        That’s why I try to stay out of trouble. I don’t pay attention to my speedometer and make sure my turn signal lights are working because I am a good citizen. I do so because:

        You never know who you’re going to get in the cop lottery.

      2. mommypino says:

        Bibi, It is indeed a difference but I find that difference irrelevant to justify a blanket hatred against the entire population of cops. Just because someone chooses to be a cop doesn’t mean that they are bad or narcissists. I don’t know for sure why my cousin’s husband chose to be a cop but knowing him, it’s probably because he wants to protect people and he thinks it’s an honorable job. He treats his job very honorably. I also agree with you that a lot of cops are abusive and there is a book that enumerates police enforcement as top 7 in the top ten jobs that attracts psychopaths. It is definitely something that needs more scrutiny and study. Thanks to this bulletin HG brought up something else that is beyond psychopathy or narcissism that causes the other cops to turn a blind eye or be complicit to police brutality. I think that it’s important to look at that too and how to change the culture inside.

        I totally agree about the Central Park case. As soon as I saw the video I knew that she was a narcissist. They can come up with lies from nothing. I think that maybe racism is an unevolved way of trying to have control. I think that it may be a manifestation of the need for control and most people who are normal just end up going with the flow. Referring to HG’s article again, this answers so many questions about our society in general.

        I agree with value to human life. It is very sad every time an innocent person gets killed.

        1. lisk says:

          Frankly, in many cases where citizens do IN FACT need protection, I would rather have a pychopath pitbull of a policeman/woman keeping me safe from the other unlicensed psychopaths out there.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You raise a valid point which forms part of the companion piece to this long article.

          2. Mercy says:

            HG, the companion piece you mention sounds like something I’m very interested in reading. Like Lisk I see where having a narcissist in a position of protection is valuable. Right now though, with current situations I question what stops a narcissist from becoming a Floyd.

          3. mommypino says:

            I think that higher evolved psychopaths would work where they have enough cognitive abilities to assess the right actions in certain situations. Both Chauvin and Tou Thao have complaints against them before Floyd. I think that there should be more scrutiny with patterns of behaviors of cops to weed out the bad ones. I also think the standard of the culture in the police department should be evaluated. I think that since being a cop involves killing, there is definitely a need for at least a suspension of empathy or lack of empathy but they have to be able to follow standards of acceptable behaviors.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            This line of thought MP is something that will be pursued in the companion piece.

          5. mommypino says:

            I’m so looking forward to it HG!!

          6. autiempath says:

            Me to Lisk, i know this from my own experience.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Re: narcissists and protection

            I agree with you on that Lisk. The military is full of them.

    4. lisk says:

      Interesting about your husband accepting counterfeit money and not calling cops.

      Was the store owner a narc for calling the cops? Yes, according to Urban Dictionary: 3. n. A person that turns you in for something you did wrong; specifically to any type of authority figure like parents, cops, teachers, boss, etc.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        However that is because it is short for narcotics officer and the slang word is derived from that, not narcissism.

        1. lisk says:

          I know, hence my reference.

      2. mommypino says:

        Lisk, we live in a really small community where people know each other. He knows almost all of his patients and I’m sure that he use his common sense on making decisions on what to do in each situation. He told me that years ago his bank saw a counterfeit bill in the money that he was trying to deposit. They didn’t call the cops on him either. They just told him that they will not accept it. Most people here behave in an honor system way.

        Was the store owner a narc for calling the cops? Who knows. People’s behaviors are usually affected by the environment that they are in.

  41. Love says:

    Bravo!!! Great read! I loved the statement “ Why is it that a tyrannical regime is toppled only to be replaced by another one?”. Very true. That’s why when I hear people push for a revolution, I know it will only make matters worse. I was born into a revolution. Nothing came of it but even more suffering.
    And thank you for remarking on the hypocrisy of other countries’ responses to the events in the US. Namely China and Iran. I laughed thinking really? Where human rights are a joke and any protests are immediately and completely smothered. Where words are always censored. Where anyone can be accused of being a spy, silenced and sent to prison to be tortured and worse yet killed. But good of them to speak up. After all we are in this together 😆

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Love, do advocate its existence to others.

    2. lisk says:

      That’s right, Love.

      If the protestors/looters get what they think they want, then they will come to learn what *real* oppression is.

      1. Safe @ Harbor says:

        Your a narc too?

        1. lisk says:

          Probably, though HG’s Empath Detector says not.

          I’m not sure what that has to do with my response to Love.

    3. Violetta says:

      Get rid of the Ancient Regime in France, and you get Robespierre. Get rid of the Tsar, you get Stalin. Get rid of the oligarchs in Cuba, you get Castro.

      1. Renarde says:

        Vi

        Right. Create a power vacuum and others get in.

        Mind you, I once wrote a frothy piece how Robespierre was executing tiny, miniature pugs on a scaffold. The Swine!

        Not sure what I was on but it amused me.

        1. Violetta says:

          One time my stoner friends and I were trying to make up imprecations on the order of “May the Bluebird of Happiness shit on your birthday cake.” I came up with “May the Sound of Music rear up and attack you,” which made one of my friends laugh for 20 minutes, though I didn’t think it was all that funny. When she came down, she admitted it wasn’t.

          1. Renarde says:

            Ha ha! I once had a male sub who was older than me. He came to visit.

            We decided that we would write the most offensive musical in the world. We named it ‘Kink’

            We are both musical. To the tune of ‘There is nothing like a Dame’, he popped out, ‘There is nothing like a slave’. OMG. We could not stop laughing.

            We had all kinds of ideas such a chorus line filled with cross-dressers. We weren’t even high!

          2. Violetta says:

            Your attempt at “Springtime for Hitler”?
            I still think the audition scene in the original ’68 Producers is one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen. “Dancing Hitlers, wait in the hallway. We are only seeing singing Hitlers now.” [One stubborn performer demonstrates his jazz chaîné turn and grand jeté on the way out.]

  42. Love says:

    Sorry I put my comment in the wrong article.

  43. Dolores Haze says:

    Mesmerizing. This one should definitely get published as an opinion piece in a major print media outlet.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Dolores, ensure it is brought to the attention of many other people.

  44. Kim e says:

    Excellent article. I cant deal with it any longer at the moment as I already knew from reading HG what was behind it. Tired of crying and hating

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Kim, please ensure its existence is promoted wifely.

  45. autiempath says:

    This article is a must read!

    Reason N. Is everywhere.

    I reconize the reason N. After what happend in Amsterdam yesterday.

    A lot of people came to protest against police brutality and about black lives mather.
    There was a permit for only 300 people to protest in Amsterdam.
    A lot more came, most of the people wearing masks.
    And then as icing on the cake, the mayor of Amsterdam came, with no mask on.

    Stating that protesting is for the greater good, so no need to stop it, when to many people came and social distancing is impossible.

    With other words.

    F#ck al the nurses, doctors, people who lost their jobs, business and lives during the lockdown.

    Anyway, this was a example of reason N. In my country, the Netherlands.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you AE and for sharing your observations in the Amsterdam.

  46. Pingback: America : You Are Being Conned ⋆ NarcTopia
  47. lickemtomorrow says:

    Bravo again! What a marvellous piece of writing and insight. Thank you, HG, for opening our eyes once again.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you LET, make sure you bring it to the attention of others.

  48. MB says:

    Evidence, not emotion. I always enjoy your perspective, HG. So much to think about in this piece, yet so simple at it’s core. As ever, you’ve got my logical cogs turning!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you MB, get its existence circulated please.

      1. Brooke says:

        I have a quick question for you HG. If this is important, why are you asking them to pay? I understand what you are. It makes sense. Narcissistic people tend to rely on self-focusing interactions. However, from what I’ve read from your dutiful followers is that need help. Also, I understand that you are not in need of money. Can’t you just help them?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. There are hundreds of articles which are all available for free.
          2. There are hundreds of Youtube videos which are available for free.
          3. I have. moderated over 340 000 comments, for free.
          4. Within those moderated comments I have answered queries and questions, for free.
          5. I answer some email queries, for free.

          I provide a massive amount of help at no charge.

          1. There are individuals who copy and use my work without permission. This is far less likely to happen when content has to be paid for, because these selfish and lazy individuals will not spend the money.
          2. US $ 5 is a very small amount.
          3. Expertise comes at a cost. Do you work for free? Have you asked your lawyer, therapist, dentist etc to work for you? Have any of them provided you with services for free to the extent I have at 1-5 above?

          1. Narc noob says:

            HG, like Brooke I too asked why this was important information in need of spreading, with a price tag. I wondered if you will reach more people if the bigger newsworthy stories are written without a cost? Obviously once a reader has gained respect/trust for the writer, they will generally buy more articles. The bait to get them here in the first place would be those world-wide headlines.

            Maybe that is just how I think?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            For the reasons stated and also it deters plagiarism, I ought to have mentioned that earlier.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            See 14 Meghan Markle articles. See POTUS articles x2. See Spacey, Weinstein, Herd/Depp (one free and one charged), Pistorius, Swift and others. Those are all headline grabbers as well and all are free.

          4. Narc noob says:

            Are you saying that we can’t buy, and then circulate to those we want to reach with the information? People won’t buy at all, those that plagiarize?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I am saying you can buy, read, endorse and send the link to other people so they can be encouraged to obtain the information. You do not circulate the actual material, that is a breach of copyright. If you want to buy twenty copies and give all 20 away to people, you are permitted to do that.
            If you buy a car and you feel pleased with your purchase, you may endorse that vehicle to other people in case they are interested in buying that vehicle, you do not give them your car.
            The ones that plagiarise will not spend money, therefore introducing a charge, even a small one as I have here, deters that behaviour.

          6. Narc noob says:

            I see your reasons above now, HG. I still think mine has merit but it’s also true that you have quite a few big-wigs already covered at no charge.

            Besides, thinking about your grand design, maybe you are getting through faster now and charging is a sensible business approach.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            A small number of people complain about having to pay because they think the material should be free. That mindset is easily and readily addressed as you have seen in the past NN.
            I understand that a few others are suggesting that the content should be free in order to reach more people and I appreciate that this suggestion is being made in order to increase awareness, rather than from a position of feeling entitled to free information. As I have pointed out, and you accept, I have covered many individuals (see everybody in the A Very Series) which relates to head line grabbing behaviour (and include in that for instance the young women pretending to offer a child for adoption) and with this, because it does take me significant time to research and write (nobody else is doing that for me!) and for other reasons I have already articulated, that a small fee has been attached.

          8. FYC says:

            Narc Noob, I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but yes, I do think it is the way you are thinking about HG’s content. I recommend goods and services that have associated costs frequently. Haven’t you ever recommended a movie or a book or product or service that has an associated cost to another person? Have you not often had some one at a restaurant or store say in response to a compliment, “Please be sure to tell your friends about us,” if so, I bet you did not give it second thought. This is exactly what is happening here.

            We value HG’s original content. We pay for the privilege of acquiring/accessing that content. We compliment HG on his unparalleled insight and for sharing his knowledge in such a timely manner on such an important topic (and at a very low price). He naturally responds the way the above shop owner example does. Seems all very natural to me.

            Are you aware that other content providers block access to their sites altogether unless you subscribe, and then offer additional premiums for access to higher levels of content? Even more public forms of content like news media limit access to their sites after you access just three posts. Content providers do this because there is a cost associates with gaining knowledge and the dissemination of the same.

            I think one reason why people feel they should not have to pay for HG’s content is because he generously shared his blog content for free for years. Yet, instead of thinking, “Wow, I always get so much from HG’s works, it is really worth paying for this special report,” we often hear laments of “I want this, why do I have to pay?” or worse. NN, I know you value HG’s content, so please consider it in the broader view of all content providers. Thank you for your consideration.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Well articulated.

          10. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            Mr Tudor,
            True,
            I have noticed, much to my surprise/shock, how widespread your work is copied, complete with images and everything, without mentioning your name.

            The big marketing boys ( Dean Jackson, Keith Cunningham, …) say not to change your business only to avoid being copied, as being copied means you’re or your work is of high value.

            If losers want to copy you, let them be losers!

            I’m quite certain people recognise your work from a distance, even when your name isn’t mentioned.
            It’s of a unique quality that nobody can match.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you, Z. I have dealt with numerous transgressors.

          12. Violetta says:

            HG:

            “There are individuals who copy and use my work without permission. This is far less likely to happen when content has to be paid for, because these selfish and lazy individuals will not spend the money.”

            To be fair, if I were still teaching, I’d want to distribute this to my students, just so they see what all those lovely people–Chauvin, people of color ransacking black-owned businesses, Antifa, the White Supremacists pretending to be Antifa, concerned tweeting celebrities, the president, and the president’s opponents–have in common.

            OTOH, rather than copying it without permission or expecting my students to shell out $5 for an essay not required by the course directors (however reasonable the price), I’d probably just ask you for permission. If I didn’t get it, I’d have my students read your free articles on both left- and right-wing politicians as well as your discussions of basic assertions of control, so they’d know what the dynamics are.

            Actually, in the unlikely event I ever get to teach again–the system seems to prefer people like my grad school nemesis, a textbook narc who not only got tenure but also a fellowship so she could spew out more of her word salad research–I’m going to find a way to make HG Tudor required reading in any Rhetoric-&-Composition course I teach. Frankly, I think the Classics Department and Comparative Religion ought to follow suit: Cicero and Abelard make sense only under the lens of Narcissism:

          13. HG Tudor says:

            You now have a mission.

          14. Narc noob says:

            FYC, thank you for your contribution. While I do have entitlement issues I do not expect HG to provide his time and expertise for free, no matter how wealthy or evil he may be.

            Having said that however I am of the opinion that if someone is aiming for #1 material and information in their field, the trust of the public is paramount and consequently a big task. With no credentials (as some of the world dictate) this matter of trust would play out differently depending on the individual. What I find acceptable and trustworthy may not be someone elses cup of tea, and vise versa. Ie: I would not necessarily buy this on recommendation from a friend until I got more information. Plus, I’m a tight ass (kid narc bro tells me). Nevertheless I do believe I have an open mind, so curiosity would get the better of me.

            I see that HG has a bigger picture in mind, not just being known for his most accurate interpretation of narcissism but his grand design, whatever that may be. Perhaps his blog is a growing business and the way the public have responded so far has meant it’s suitable timing for charging and packaging his work differently.

            Just as a side note, I have given money to my friend’s in the past so that they may take the first step in getting to know HGs work. I believe one will take the ND or EDC shortly as a way of testing his material.

          15. Narc noob says:

            Hg, have you considered paying your readers to spread your work? For example, for every EDC they bring your way they could be paid on commission, etc. I am sure you have your reasons for and against.

        2. lisk says:

          I also had this question. If this is so important and you want us to share a link with newcomers, then the first introduction to you and your line of thinking needs to be free.

          I was happy to pay for the piece, and I understand why you charge for it.

          But I am sure that anyone I would share this link with would see the title and think, “Wait! Maybe *this* is a con! Forget it.”

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Maybe using your good offices you explain to them that it is not a con?

            Interestingly, nobody has responded thinking it is a con, quite the opposite.

          2. lisk says:

            Nobody would respond if they thought it was a con!

            Unfortunately, sharing it is similar to what Leigh experienced when she tried to explain that this situation is all about narcissism.

            And when I did tell people about how I gained freedom and enlightenment with you and your site, they thought I was crazy.

            If you’re sending a difficult message to first-time customer who might be skeptical, you can’t expect them to desire to pay for it.

            Similarly, if you want something to have viral potential in a key time when all the stars are aligned, it’s gotta be free. You can always cash in on it later.

          3. Violetta says:

            HG promises his opinions and analysis. When you open it up, what do you see? His opinions and analysis.

            You can disagree with him if you want, but the items are always exactly as described.

          4. Violetta says:

            Okay, here’s how I’ve decided to manage it. Someone commented on a Yahoo article that Chauvin had “zero empathy.” So I replied, “Zero empathy is the key. Chauvin is a Narcissist, as are many of our politicians. Read some material at HG Tudor’s Narcsite. Some of it’s free, some of it’s quite affordable, and all of it’s quite illuminating about what is going on in this world.”

            I figure I’ll tell them where the info is, and they can decide what they want to purchase. If they’re impressed by a free article, they’ll be more likely to spring for A:YABC, but my goal is to get them here.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for doing so. One of the ways of bridging the General World with the Narcissism World is to use the A Very Series and The Narcissist Torments articles. The A Very Series covers Pistorius, Weinstein, Spacey, Watts, Johnson, Trump, Markle, Swift, Heard, Bolsonaro, and Prince Andrew. Topical, insightful and cost nothing. Yes, by directing them to the site generally will pique interest and allow people to take a look and make their own minds up. Enquiring, open minds will embrace the information and revelations.

          6. lisk says:

            Excellent management.

            Even if your comment gets wiped away, if it’s up for any amount of time, that’s a good thing.

          7. Violetta says:

            Lisk:

            Yahoo is less likely to send comments to the Memory Hole than DM, although I’m still posting there too.

            The trick with DM is to get on a laptop so you can reply to someone’s comment. The bots are more likely to complain about your comment if it’s an independent one. They can’t monitor every reply stacked under an original post, especially if a article is getting a lot of clicks.

            Of course DM moderates comments on some articles itself, but I’ve noticed they may start out moderating comments, then you click on the article later, and they’ve stopped moderating. I don’t know what their policy is on this. Some articles will be closed to comments at 1 or 0, when they’ve probably had an overwhelmingly negative response, but with others they just seem to give up.

          8. Kiki says:

            I think the thing is you have to be ready for HGs work.

            I remember googling silent treatment before I found this amazing blog.

            If a person hasn’t identified with the treatment that HG describes in a deeply personal manner I don’t think they would be as open to it.
            I know I was still in denial for a long time .
            Just my personal thought on this .

            Kiki

          9. lisk says:

            Absolutely. I was ready for it at one point but missed it because I was internet searching “stonewalling.”

            Grrrr!

        3. Renarde says:

          Brooke

          He does help.Endlessly.

          Hg, 340k is really the achievement!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            342 757, no 342 758 now, thank you.

          2. Renarde says:

            Ha ha! We could get quite in the cycle here!

  49. Witch says:

    Bomboclart!!! I got to purchase this!

    1. Love says:

      Witch, are you Jamaican? I love Jamaica 🇯🇲

      1. Witch says:

        No I’m not Jamaican. I’m fake! haha
        I also say wallahi and I’m not Muslim. This is what happens when you live in London

        1. lisk says:

          Shukran-Merci!

  50. K says:

    Q. But Why?

    A. Fuel and Control.

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