The Creature : An Introduction



Want to know what lurks beneath in EVERY narcissist?

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163 thoughts on “The Creature : An Introduction

  1. Emma says:

    HG, you do read people like a book. I am most impressed that, based on very little information, you connected me with Buddhism.

    You truly have an exceptional mind. It is a privilege that, as your readers we are afforded a glimpse into your mind and its incredible imagination and creativity. Like a great stage actor/ playwright rolled in one, you are able to assume and articulate the narcissistic perspective, the empathic perspective and all the shades in between and weave an intricate web of many many characters and stories. A monumental effort indeed. Your work is a magnificent architecture to behold. It is full of beauty and sadness, although this latter may be my overlay.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  2. Kim e says:

    “I can talk about my other narcs tho.” What other narcs? Did I miss something?
    Talking or thinking about ANY narc is a breach of NC as it keeps your ET elevated. A narc is a narc is a narc when it comes to ET.

    1. blackcoffee30 says:

      Jody. Yes. Ok. Ok.

      1. Kim e says:

        I think you just in a round about way told me to STOP!!!!!!

  3. Another Cat says:


    In the US? No, I’m in Europe. Thanks, lovely of you to tell more about Philip. Guess my notion of their romantic life is now shattered cold turkey. Effective immediately. Yuck. So the Queen has been married to a narc for 80 years??? Poor thing. I do not envy. Interesting that both her grandsons are Nonnarcs. I’m happy she has them, they probably understand her more than anyone else around her.

    I actually think I know of an opposite composition (to the one you asked HG about). Two narcs, their only child is an empath.

  4. Kim e says:

    you stated

    “Lowering my ET is a work in progress but mostly so I can embark on my revenge campaign.”

    Just a thought….. that thinking about your revenge campaign will make it a lot harder to lower your ET at the same time. I get that you hate this person but you have to think of BC30 first. Once she is healed…and this will take months………then think about revenge.
    Dont let your hatred derail your healing.

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. Again, I’m forever a work in progress. Thank you for your kind words. I’ve been told I must lower my ET in order to enact revenge, so that is what I am doing. It’s been difficult, NGL, but that’s my goal. If that weren’t the case, I’d likely stew in hatred for a bit, which I am not doing in this case. That’s certainly at odds with my entire life.

      I don’t really think of my campaign unless I’m on KTN. Maybe, I need another break from it. I’ve been wearing this damn rubber band for weeks now, but my wrist hurts a bit less than when I started.

      As far as “healing” I’ve come a long way with my thoughts and have changed my atmosphere with all the redecorating and new habits. I’m working with a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a LCSW, and a wellness guru. So far, they are ok with my development and plans. Maybe that is TMI, but I was dead serious about getting my sh*t together after all this.

  5. NarcAngel says:

    HG explains that most N behaviour is not deliberate but instinctive. That is not to excuse the behaviour but there is a difference between the two. They don’t sit and plot as we imagine them to. Just thought I’d mention that while you’re on the hill.

    1. blackcoffee30 says:

      I know. I’ve had a number of audio consults. I remain steadfast on my hill! But good of you to mention, so others who are not in the know are not led astray.

      1. Leigh says:

        @blackcoffee30, can I ask you about your relationship with the narc. I think we were in similar situations. How long were you with the narc? How long has it been over? How did it end? If it’s too hard to talk about, I understand. I ask because I think time really does help. It’s been 15 months that I’ve been out of my relationship with the narc and I’m not angry anymore. Not too long ago, I started to feel sad instead and I find I’m even moving past that now too. I just keep reading and listening and learning. This site really helps me to work through this grieving process. At least that’s the way I look at it. I think I’m finally getting to acceptance. Im sure you’ll get there one day too. The anger will be gone.

        1. blackcoffee30 says:

          IPSS, 6 years, 6 months in-person and 4 months NC. I’m 100% sure the anger will be gone in the future, but I don’t have to forgive N or myself for any of this in order to find acceptance, nor does it mean that I will abandon revenge. I responded to Kim e that I’m receiving a lot of mental and emotional support and care, which has been super helpful. I’ve moved on so much faster than I could have ever imagined. However, since everyone is concerned, and it’s breaking NC, mum is the word from here on out. 🤐

          1. Leigh says:

            Blackcoffee30, I’m so sorry. I was just speaking out of concern. In actuality, who am I to talk? I still have contact with my ex narc. The formal relationship is over and I’m not going back but unfortunately we work together. I just limit my interaction with him to as little as possible. I was just trying to say that as you work through the healing process, you may find that you no longer need revenge. This blog is a safe space and you should feel free to share. I’m sorry if I overstepped.

          2. Renarde says:


            In your situation, I would change jobs. As a matter of priority.

            And when you get the job and refs secured, send a note to HR. Telling them explicitly what he did.

          3. blackcoffee30 says:

            @Leigh There’s no need to apologize, I know many here are concerned for me. That’s how I understood your comment. But speaking about N is a breach of NC.

            I may have a unique view of this experience. IDK, time will tell.

          4. Empath007 says:

            Hi BC30, that’s a long time to be subjected to the abuse. I think I can speak for everyone on this site when I say… we’ve all thought about revenge. A LOT. It’s only a natural response. I also think if you get to the point where you can get it…go for it. I love a good revenge story 😂

            I want to offer a different perspective though, from someone who is 2 years out.

            For the longest
            Time, I struggled with the concept of forgiveness and what it really means. I read and watched interviews of inspirational people who shared their wisdom regarding the subject. I heard them as they said forgiveness was the key to freedom, that forgiving doesn’t mean we have to condone the wrong done to us… just simply set ourselves free from
            It. Yet…. somehow this was not working for me, the word forgiveness just did not seem appropriate for certain circumstances… and being the victim of a narc is one of those circumstances.

            I also feel the word itself “forgiveness” does nothing but re victimize the victim… it’s preaching term “thou shall forgive!”… so people who already struggle readily with guilt… who worked their asses off to summon up
            The courage to escape abuse… now… we also better be ready to forgive.

            I struggled with this for the majority of my NC. Then…. one day…. I saw a quote from one my favourite authors Elie Weisel

            “The opposite of love is not hate, its indifference”

            I had seen this quote many times before but always read it in the context in which Weisel
            Was writing it (namely – silence strengthens the oppressor)

            But suddenly I understood…. I got it…. loving the narc gives him power over me…hating the narc gives him power over me…. seeking revenge gives him power over me…. indifference, not forgiveness was the only way out. I understood that once I become indifferent to him. He becomes meaningless. And that’s what I need to achieve.

            If you’ve made it to the end of this extremely long sentiment…. my point is just to say… I’d love for you to get your revenge. I’d love to see justice for you and all the rest of us.

            But I’d also love for these narcs to become completely insignificant. As that’s the thing that will really remove the imaginary crown from their heads.

          5. Kim says:

            BC30. Narc talk here is not breaking NC. This is where it is permitted

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi Renarda,
            My story is a little complicated. You see, I am HR. I know what I did was wrong. I didn’t know I was falling until it was too late. His seduction was slow and methodical. We started as colleagues, then became friends, then became intimate & finally disengagement. This was over a 7.5 year period.

            I thought about leaving and decided against it. I love my job and I struggle with giving up something I love because of him. He’s a Mid Range and needs to maintain his facade, so he won’t do anything to jeopardize that so he leaves me alone for the most part. I’m not a viable fuel source for him anymore. I keep it strictly business.

            I agree with Empath007 in that the key is indifference. Its learning to not allow him to effect me and he really doesn’t anymore.

            Maybe its because I didn’t suffer the kind of abuse so many of you did so I don’t feel the need to run for the hills. The truth is he never raised his hands to me or called me vile names or cursed at me or stole from me. For me, it was silent treatment after silent treatment, gaslighting and circular conversations. I’ve put my wall up and that seems to be enough.

          7. Leigh says:

            Empath007, so much of what you say resonates with me. Rendering them insignificant. That’s the key.

          8. blackcoffee30 says:

            @Kim e

            “BC30. Narc talk here is not breaking NC. This is where it is permitted”

            No, I am not supposed to even be thinking of him. I’ll comment and whatnot, but not about him specifically or my revenge campaign anymore for now. I can talk about my other narcs tho.

          9. blackcoffee30 says:

            @Empath007 I meant to add one more thing. I will get there, just not today.

            “I recall a Buddhist fable. Once, a woman attempted to seduce a famous monk, but he remained unmoved. When asked whether she was not attractive enough, the monk replied that he saw no woman, only a heap of bones.”

          10. Empath007 says:

            You don’t need to explain anything. I see nothing wrong with seeking revenge. I do however think that only puts the focus back on him and not yourself…. and with some more time… you may get to a place where you’re only concerend about making your life better (not that you’re not already – it’s obvious you’re taking major strides in your own self care) but your life will become the sole focus …. and his just won’t matter to you anymore, because he’s insignificant.

            You don’t have to forgive. You don’t have to forget. You don’t have to “rise above it”…. I think that’s all bullshit meant to make victims feel bad. And often makes them re engage with their abuser (revenge is also a form of re engagement).

            You just need to take care of you. Enjoy your journey of self care.

        2. BC30 says:

          Well, well, well, look at us now! I see our personalities remain the same. 😛 I’m much calmer, but still set on my campaign when the time is right. You’re still in HR, but physically unbound because N is gone from work, and you have more freedom in mind and spirit.

    2. Leela says:

      Only the Greater sit and plot, the others act mostly from instinct. “My” narc knows that there´s something off with him, that he´s different from other people but cannot put his finger on it. He has no name for it.

      1. BC30 says:

        This remains 100% true, but I still am of the belief that they make choices. They are not cats or toddlers.

  6. blackcoffee30 says:

    I’ve listened to the audio several times. I want to know more because I can’t quite wrap my mind around it.

    1. BC30 says:

      Ya’ll I had to ask HG before I could reach an understanding. I highly advise doing so if you need some clarity on anything related to narcissism.

  7. Leela says:

    @Alexis: Thank you very much for your encouraging words. I´m working hard on my ET. I something think too of narcs as a kind of “aliens” or even “vampires” (sorry!) but then I think: “Oh, you cannot think of HUMAN BEINGS like that?” But it may be the best way. I always tried to understand people, to respect people but with narcs this is not a really good idea. 🙁 I know and understand more and more, and then: There is the facade of this person and I sometimes forget WHAT he is and in my mind it´s just a “cool and funny buddy” – but he´s NOT! 🙁 Anyway, gotta do some more work on that one. I´m learning ….

    1. Renarde says:


      At the very risk of being a ‘Yoda’ about this, you cannot think your way in.

      It’s more like, in my own perception, a state of being.

      The closest I can describe it is Zen. I spent a lot of time last year (with the risk of sounding completely bonkers) communing with the Buddha. I am pagan, so not my type at all.

      He taught me to let it go. Hate is the seat of attachment. You have had a aggrevious transgression committed against yourself. But you have to let it go otherwise it will consume you.

      Just let it go. You wont find justice in this world but there are other plains of existence.

      It’s the simplest thing in the world. Your injustice, the rage, the anger and the tears are a helium filled balloon. Just let it go.

      When you do that you will be far better equipped to deal with the other morons in this world. And deal with him too.

      Once you see it for truly what it is, you see a little boy, who never grew up. And when you get there, you are well and truly on your path to full weaponisation.

      Wish you well.

      1. Leela says:

        Thank you, Renarde! VERY interesting! “Let it go” sounds like a really good mantra. Just let it go. You know, what is really difficult for me is to realize how EVIL those people are. They are just PURE EVIL people. Even though I read a lot from H.G. (books, blog) it´s hard to REALLY realize. But the “just let it go” sounds really good.

        1. Renarde says:


          Evil is a subjective term for me. Some narcs are pure evil from my perception, a lot are incompetent, useless, boring.

          Some are incredibly funny, witty and charming.

          I’ve been giving your post some thought, which has also helped me. Whenever a narc I’ve known crosses my mind, I examine how I feel about them at the precise point in time. I’ll give a few examples. Two intimate and two ‘friends’.


          My big ex, the UMS-P

          Nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

          Recent ex, MME

          Tinge of sadness. I remember the good times, the funny times but not enough to go back. That will fade with time.


          Female MRN-S. Goodness, they’d have to search hard for that brain cell so not and C and by extension, an E.

          Pity. I pity her.

          MM pos. C. Male.

          Utter motherfucking fury. It’s still incandescent with me.

          Both betrayed me. Buts it’s the MMC I’m feeling the strongest emotion. Rage.

          If I saw him in the street, I dont think I’d be able to keep control and that’s very bad. He ambushed me after his betrayal at my door. Luckily, I had multiple, carefully thought out plans in place so I could just switch them on.

          So you see, I’m no Yoda. I feel different things about different narcs.

          It is a bite trite of me to say, ‘let it go’. I’m going to pop another one out and say ‘time is a great healer’.

          Fortunately for us wenches, Hgs work gives MASSIVE shortcuts. That’s why it’s so important.

          1. blackcoffee30 says:

            Thanks for sharing Renarde because this is similar to where I am at.

          2. Renarde says:

            No worries BC30

            Hope it helped x

          3. Leela says:

            Well, I just know two narcs:

            * “friend”: mhm… middle mid ranger …typical!
            * Dad: Okay, he´s my daddy. 🙁

          4. Renarde says:


            He’s not your Daddy. Not at all. He might have deposited a seed somewhere in your mum but that’s about it.

            My father is a semi shambolic version of the antichrist. In fact I’m pretty sure that Lucifer in hell is holding his head in his hands and going, ‘Why me?’

            My father, in name only, will pay for his aggrevious sins against my person and my brother.

            I couldnt have even reached this position without Hgs words, wisdom and help.

            Leela, you are very young on the path to weaponisation. I do not mean this as a slur. Far from it. It is HIGHLY likely you have picked up narc intimate partner’s. You just simply have not recognised them for what they are. Yet.

            You will do. I was you a few years ago. I call it ‘cracking the crucible’. You will get to a certain point on weaponisation and then suddenly Enlightenment appears.

            It is brilliant but it is devastating. For Empaths, it is looking into OUR oblivion.

            Suddenly the world that you think you saw when you was a child is not the reality that you are faced with. I think many Empaths,when the reality dawns, it does actually send them mad.

            I do not know why I was one of the lucky ones. I just know I was.

            I pray it will be the same for you x

          5. truthseeker6157 says:


            I read your comment about your dad. I’m really sorry he’s like that.

            Father daughter is such a lovely relationship when it works the way it is supposed to. My dad is an unaware empath. Even animals go to my dad. The kindest man I ever met, couldn’t tell a lie if his life depended on it.
            I am lucky and I know I am lucky. We cherish each other.

            I’m going to see him today. I’ll hug him extra hard.

            You are a strong lady Renarde. I wish you had known the same relationship as me x

          6. Renarde says:


            Thank you so much for your kind comments. It means such a lot.

            Please give him a hug from me.

            I used to pray that my real mummy and daddy would come for me. It’s funny how the world works, sometimes x

          7. autiempath says:


            Your comment about, he’s not your daddy, he might have deposited a seed somewhere made me laugh.
            I call my father and the father of my children sd, the initials of sperm donor.
            And just like your father, they don’t deserve the title.

          8. Darth Renardus says:


            They certainly do not.

          9. truthseeker6157 says:

            Darth Renardus! You’re killing me here! It’s late Friday night, I’m in bed, alone, feeling sorry for myself and Darth Renardus lands in my inbox. You are off your rocker but in such a good good way.

            Boris in his blue mask pulling a pint has really lit my fuse. How is it, that it’s fine not to wear a mask in a bar eating a bag of pork scratchings and drinking a G&T but it’s not safe to go into a shop to buy a t shirt without wearing a mask? I’ll tell you why. Boris just got a massive delivery of masks. That’s why. So now we all have to wear masks to buy t shirts.

            People will trample each other for masks as they did for toilet paper. In two weeks you will need to exchange a lung in order to obtain a mask. At which point, we won’t need to wear masks anymore because Boris will have sold them all. Meanwhile, in Sainsbury’s you can’t shift for toilet paper. It’s a BOGOF on toilet paper in fact. Maybe we can turn it all into masks and kill two birds with one stone.

            There we are, much better.
            I like your pink light sabre Darth x

        2. Violetta says:


          And then there’s this version of that song from Frozen:

          1. Renarde says:


            Oh yeah. My children one day went bonkers with Sky. Four times they rented the bloody movie. I’d have bought the damn thing for a tenner, which I eventually had to do.

            What can I say? Chip off the old block.

          2. Leela says:

            😀 😀 😀 That´s a good one!! 😀 😀 😀

          3. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you so much for this, Violetta. Really needed it. Exactly what I needed.

      2. truthseeker6157 says:

        Mmmmm! Wise she is.

        1. Renarde says:


          Ha ha! That made me chortle! I went over to the Dark Side many years ago!

          Maybe I’m a small, dark anti-yoda? Ohh that makes me Sith! I shall be Darth Renardus! My light sabre will be pink!

          Saw a brilliant Yoda meme the other day.

          Wrong, you are. Off you must fuck!

          1. Violetta says:

            “Wrong, you are. Off you must fuck!”

            I’m using this.

            Pink light sabre? I’m sure you’re familiar with the classic “The Top 100 Things I’d Do
            If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord.”

            Some favorites:

            7. When I’ve captured my adversary and he says, “Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?” I’ll say, “No.” and shoot him. No, on second thought I’ll shoot him then say “No.”

            12. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.

            29. I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion.

          2. truthseeker6157 says:


            Ohhhh I absolutely love that! I have to figure a way to get that into a conversation somewhere!

          3. Renarde says:

            TS Do it! And let us know how it goes x

          4. Fiddleress says:

            I agree with TS, this one is brilliant! “Off you must fuck” sounds like a classy insult right out of a Shakespeare play. I’ll have to break NC just for the sheer joy of hurling this one at *him*, or *them*.
            No I won’t, no I won’t. But it’s sooooo tempting.

  8. Leela says:

    @everybody: There´s also a factor called resilience. Some children who were horribly abused grow up to healthy adults anyway while others develop mental illness(es) because just a couple of negative life events. Yes, this is also genetics. But there are also several factors which are still not known.

    But yeah, I REALLY have to get rid of my ET. 🙁

    1. Renarde says:


      You cannot ever get rid of ET. You can dial down your ER however.

      This takes time and patience. But it can be done.

      1. Leela says:

        Working hard on it! 🙁 “My” narc showed up when I really needed a friend. I got sick (episode of my mental illness), I was under heavy medication. That´s when the Love Bombing started. Need a “really good friend” who is “there for you”? Dial 666-Narcissist 😉

        1. Renarde says:


          Ain’t that the truth!

          I’m sorry to hear about your illness. Is it getting better?

  9. Emma says:

    Renarde says:
    July 5, 2020 at 13:48
    “Could two clearly empathic parents ever produce a child with full blown NPD?”
    Good question Renarde.

    HG Tudor says:
    July 5, 2020 at 14:55
    HG, would that be because the child gets abused by non-parental narcissists like grandparents, other relatives, neighbours, teachers etc. and the empath parents fail to protect the child from these narcs?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      The GPD could come from grandparents or further back. The LOCE might be some form of abuse (in this scenario the start sharp shock, which I will be writing about) or for example, helicoptering the child so whilst the protection is well intentioned, it results in the child never being able to make its own decisions.

      1. Emma says:

        Thank you HG. Yes I suppose there are different scenarios how genetic predisposition and lack of control environment could come together. I am wondering, seeing the child as an object is what causes the main damage, empathic parents would not objectify the child. An approach like helicoptering would then be an honest mistake. And empathic parents dedicated to the well being of the child would hopefully try to correct their mistake when they see their approach has a negative effect on the child. If there are no other contributing factors, could that in itself still cause full blown narcissism and do you know such cases?

      2. Fiddleress says:

        HG, I have a question, please: is the child of at least one N parent bound to become a N themselves if they have the genes? It seems to me that the LOCE is inevitable with a N parent.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, because the LOCE may be rendered ineffective by the presence of an intervener or the relevant genetic component is not passed on.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you, HG.

      3. JB says:

        HG, I didn’t realise a child could become a narcissist as a result of genes from a grandparent. Bloody hell. So in a loving environment, would it just be helicoptering the child which would tip the balance? Could you please define what you mean by helicoptering as well, as this to me is a subjective concept.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is an intervening influence which means the child is not exposed to the lack of control environment for as long as they might ordinarily otherwise be exposed for and thus they escape becoming a narcissist.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            HG, the LOCE can also be one very traumatic event, isn’t that right? In this case, even the soothing attitude of the other parent or other people can remain ineffective, right?

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you, HG.

          4. JB says:

            Thanks HG. Explains why I never became one, I had a few strong intervening influences in my life who saved me from this.

        2. Leigh says:

          JB, this frightens the hell out of me. I fear I may have helicoptered my kids. I grew up having to take care of my mother and I swore that my children wouldn’t have to live like that. I often wonder if I coddled them to much.

          1. JB says:


            Me too. So coddling them too much is helicoptering? I wasn’t sure on the exact definition of helicoptering. The trouble is, I always need to feel in control (result of my childhood environment), so now I am probably a bit like that. Bloody hell, why does life have to be so effing difficult? x

          2. Another Cat says:

            Regarding the GDP. My mother is this. A Midranger narcissist with two empathic parents and an empath sister. Guess I had a great grandparent then, who had NPD.

            Guess grandma ran around a lot, taking care of food, house, janitoring, helped church ladies. They always had sleep over relatives from the coutryside. There was a guest every weekend as she grew up, my mom said. In that tiny apartment.

            Constantly having new guests in the house,

            or moving around a lot, to new homes and new homes, creates LOCE imo.

            Regarding helicoptering I notice that we do a lot of house chores while our children are playing or watching tv. Kids live very separat ilives from their parents.

            They get confidence and understand me better when I give them a few tasks. Has helped a lot over here. They share more of their opinions since they started clearing the table and their desks.

          3. Leigh says:

            JB, yes a helicopter parent oversees and does everything for the child. They hover like a helicopter. It’s ironic, I had a control issue too. I had to learn to give up that control and let them make their own decisions, right or wrong. It’s not easy. I try to only swoop in and save them when it’s absolutely necessary. Mine are adults now though. I hope every day and did the right thing by them.

            On the Ask HG thread, FYC had made some comments about this. You should check it out. I think it will be helpful to you..

          4. Leigh says:

            Another Cat, both parents and her sister is an Empath and your mom ends up being a narcissist? WTF! Its things like this that really makes me believe that we really don’t have that much control over it.

          5. JB says:

            Leigh, I will check out that thread, thank you x

    2. mommypino says:

      Emma, my N mom had two empathic parents. But her LOCE happened when her dad died when she was very young and she experienced extreme poverty and had to stop going to school because she was caught stealing food from her classmates’ lunch boxes. Also my empathic grandmother was too timid and didn’t have to courage to protect my mom from my uncle’s MRN wife who used to go to my grandmother’s house to beat up my mom to discipline her because she didn’t do what her N sister in law asked her to do or didn’t do it right. This was the 60’s in an Asian country so children didn’t have a lot of rights back then. But I have been around my grandmother as a child and I can confirm that she was indeed an empath but the kind who stayed away from confrontations and would just acquiesce to avoid getting someone mad at her. Everyone who knew my grandfather also attests that he was a good and kind person. But we also have other relatives that are narcissists so the genes are in the family.

      1. Emma says:

        Thank you Mommypino, yes, your story makes sense. Empathic parents, if they are timid or have a ensnarement history, may not be able to shield the child from abuse. And they may love the child but the child will not feel the support and protection it needs and may develop NPD as a coping strategy depending on the genetic predisposition.

        1. mommypino says:

          You’re welcome Emma!

      2. Fiddleress says:

        Thank you for sharing your story, mommypino.
        It’s interesting: if the death of her father when she was little was the LOCE for your mother, and I believe it could be, then it goes to show that empaths or not empaths, her parents (mum) could never have protected her from this. No abusive monsters there, again. Some events can cause the NPD to develop and there was nothing anyone could do about them, so the parents/grandparents/whoever cannot be called abusive and the reason for the NPD.

        One last piece of information, if you don’t mind me asking: how old was your mother when she got beaten up for disobeying? Do you think she was seen as disobedient then because maybe her NPD had already developped?

        1. mommypino says:

          Hi Fiddleress, Based on the stories by my aunt (empath) and older than my mom, my mom has always been mischievous ever since she was a toddler. But it seemed like my mom had some empathy as a young kid. She was ten when my grandfather died and when she was caught as being the one who secretly steals their food it was extremely humiliating for her that she didn’t go back to school the next day which is why she only reached up to fifth grade. My mom was the ninth out of the ten kids that lived. The tenth, my youngest uncle was special needs and there has been two miscarriages and two infant deaths between my mom and my empathic aunt and also my grandma was close to menopausal when she got pregnant with my mom. I don’t know if this plays any factor in how my mom became a Lesser N but just thought I would share it.
          It seemed like after her dad died my grandmother struggled financially that my mom’s clothes have gotten too small for her but they couldn’t even afford to buy new ones so she didn’t leave the house. Then my adult uncles and aunts took turns in taking my mom into their homes so that my mom could be their helper in doing house chores in exchange for free food because my grandma couldn’t afford to feed her. But the most traumatic seems like the story of my MR aunt (my empath uncle’s wife) who used to drag my mom by her hair and beat her because my mom didn’t follow what she wanted my mom to do. My mom answered back and my grandma just kept asking my mom to just obey and don’t answer back so her daughter in law wouldn’t get mad anymore. I think my mom’s NPD was already developing and she was probably 12 at that time. She ran away when she turned 15-16. My grandma was a very nice and calm person and I enjoyed my childhood with her but she is too timid to stand up for anything. She was also abused because at 14 she was arranged to be married to my grandfather who was a widower so she didn’t even learn to stand up for herself. But those were in the olden times and the culture has changed so much through the years thankfully, those things are not acceptable anymore. I shared it because I think lack of control in one’s environment as a child can come from other circumstances other than having a narcissist parent so I agree with HG. I think the important factor is the feeling of not having any control and the genes are already there just waiting to be expressed by traumatic experiences.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            mommypino, thank you again. This story is heartbreaking. It must be a great help for you to understand more and more what NPD is about.
            Keep well.

          2. mommypino says:

            Thank you Fiddleress and you’re welcome! It has been very helpful and has provided me with the closure that I need. I am past the phase of anger and I have accepted everything now. I’m now more focused on breaking the cycle.

        2. mommypino says:

          Hi Fiddleress, I want to add that I believe that the trauma that expresses the genes to cause NPD is not a one time trauma like a death of the father but is more of a prolonged traumatic experience of lack of control environment. In my mom’s case, although her dad’s death was sad and traumatic, it was the circumstances that his death created in her life which created a living situation for her where she felt extreme lack of control. She said that her sister in law would not have been able to physically abuse her in their own house if her dad was still alive.

  10. Leela says:

    @Renarde: I´m so sorry what happened to you at the psychiatrist. There are some who are just horrible. I personally suffer from a mental disorder too. I function perfectly in daily life. Same goes for many other mentally ill people who are even very successful, very creative, very smart. But that doesn´t change the fact that ALL of us suffer. Some of us may have extraordinary talents, others can function and some others cannot. Mentally ill doesn´t mean that you cannot be high functioning. But we are all restricted.

    Cluster B personalities cannot form stable and healthy relationships (obviously!). Narcs can function perfectly but they suffer too when confronted with “the creature”. Mental illnesses are due to abnormal brain chemistry or abnormal brain structures. So, yes, NPD is indeed a mental disorder due to abnormal brain structure and lack of oxytocine. Patients cannot feel joy, happiness, emotional empathy or love. But that doesn´t mean that they can´t be high functioning in their daily life. Some are, some are not – this goes for every mental illness. Some can be successful (artists, writers, managers, politicians…you name it!) other cannot cope (f.e. the Lesser Narcs).

    There are clear diagnostic criteria for every mental disorder. The diagnostic manuals were made based on evidence from high quality clinical studies with a large population of patients compared to healthy people. So: Yes, the lack of emotional empathy, the (abnormal) behaviour, the pathological thoughts, the lack of certain emotions, the pathologic crave for fuel is abnormal and qualifies for a mental illness in the medical view. Personality disorders are severe mental disorders! All Clusters! So, yes, narcs are indeed mentally ill and it´s not their fault.

    I really don´t mean to defend narcs, don´t get me wrong, I´m just explaining the medical aspect here. And maybe it helps some victims to know that their narc is just a mentally ill person.

  11. Leela says:

    Actually, many narcs agree to go to therapy when they running very low in fuel and are confronted with the “creature”.

    1. Violetta says:

      And then they run their games on the therapists and try to get fuel that way.

  12. Leela says:

    This is so sad! 🙁 NPD-patients were so badly hurt that they NEED to act this horribly to ease their own pain. Their pain is so brutal, so terrible that they can´t take it, they need “fuel” to ease their horrible pain. I´ve read that when narcissists running low in fuel they can become severely depressed and even su….. Narcs are actually very badly hurt people who cannot deal with the trauma and the pain, their only way to cope is their narcissism. Without “fuel”, they cannot cope, they cannot manage their daily life. They abuse because they are hurt. I don´t mean to find excuses for the narcs but I try to understand. Narcs act horribly because they´re hurt, they act like the biggest j…. but eventually it´s not their fault. They are mentally ill people (no insult, see DSM-5 or ICD-10).

    The person you see acting on the outside is nothing but a “fake” (excuse me), In fact the narcs themselves are completely empty. That´s really very sad 🙁 🙁

    This tape was very good and very well explained. Looking forward for more.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      leela, please don’t feel sad for them. There are many empaths and even normals who have experienced trauma equal to and worse than many narcs yet they don’t feel the need to hurt others just because they were. It’s a waste of your precious and valuable emotions if you have any sympathy for them xxx

      1. Leela says:

        Alexis, that´s the dilemma: I feel REALLY VERY sorry for the victims! My heart goes out to ALL former and current IPPS! On the other hand: NPD is a severe mental illness and eventually it´s not the patients fault that they became like this. The true monsters are those, who made the patients as they are.

        1. alexissmith2016 says:

          I understand Leela I truly do. I used to feel like that too but now I know exactly what they are and that there is no cure for this disorder it seems pointless wasting my emotions on someone who does not care two shits about me or anyone else.

          I also used to blame their parents or whomever had caused it, but then what about those people, if we think like that then we should feel sorry for them too because they also suffered. Where do we stop because it is draining us by caring for them and I’d rather put my energies and emotions into someone who is kind and caring. Plus some with NPD suffered no trauma they were simply idolised by their parents and thought they were something more special than everyone else.

          I guess I just feel for all the empaths who feel for all the narcs hahah because I simply don’t.

          1. Renarde says:

            Well said, Alexis.

          2. Leela says:

            That´s a good point, Alexis! I guess my brain is not exactly ready for this yet, because I´m a Saviour Empath and always thought: We ALL are only human beings, but with narcs everything is different. 🙁 For me it´s super hard to imagine that someone can be just PURE EVIL while I see a human being there, talking to me and showing his/her facade. I´m just learning to get rid of my ET. 😉

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            It’s hard to get your ET under control Leela. It takes time so don’t be hard on yourself. We are all human beings but I prefer to think of narcs as some aliens type species (although I recognise they are not) who simply disguise themselves as humans. It helps with the LT. suppressing your ET will become easier and easier as time goes by. I’ve been following HG almost five years now and it’s only in the last couple of years I’ve got this far. Xx

          4. blackcoffee30 says:

            Here’s my two cents (if anyone cares 😆). Not all narcissists are serial killers, but all serial killers are narcissists. You had a traumatic childhood? Boo hoo, that’s no excuse to kill people* for fun or fuel. My N is not excused for his deliberate behavior, regardless of being caused by his narcissism. Nope, nope, nopity nope nope. I will die on this hill.

            Lowering my ET is a work in progress but mostly so I can embark on my revenge campaign.

            *The death penalty and human sacrifice and moral relativism yadda tarda is a discussion for another day.

        2. Fiddleress says:

          The thing is, Leela, I am not so sure that in all instances the people whose acts contributed to the lack of control environment that caused NPD were monsters.

          I have read that, as you said, on top of the genetics there seems to be an alteration in the brain functions (which could be the result of an illness that alters the way the brain functions by damaging the central nervous system as Toxoplasmosis and Lyme disease do in children, for example. Or maybe simply the neurological make-up of a child at birth); and that even the loss of a friend could amount to a LOCE. This event could prove too much to deal with by a child with the physiological predisposition to NPD.
          This is what I mean by ‘extreme vulnerability’. No monsters there, and life holds many and varied unpleasant events in store. Some are obviously horrendous to everyone (e.g. sexual abuse), while others can be deemed easy enough to overcome by many people, but they are impossible to overcome if you are extremely vulnerable to start with.

          I spoke about possible traumas with someone whose job involves dealing with asylum seekers who’ve been through hell: he has no time for what he views as ‘minor’ tales of woe, and typically has a scale of ‘justified’ reasons to be traumatised or not. When it simply does not work this way because we do not all have the same in-built resistance to similar events.

          (On a side note, here is an interesting fact about how toxoplasmosis alters the way the brain functions: experiments carried out on mice showed that when infected with the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis, the mice are no longer afraid of cats, their predators, and can indeed be attracted to them! Infection by toxoplasmosis is suspected of playing a part in schizophrenia and depression.)

        3. Violetta says:


          What happened to the monsters when they were young?

          This Be The Verse
          They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
          They may not mean to, but they do.
          They fill you with the faults they had
          And add some extra, just for you.

          But they were fucked up in their turn
          By fools in old-style hats and coats,
          Who half the time were soppy-stern
          And half at one another’s throats.

          Man hands on misery to man.
          It deepens like a coastal shelf.
          Get out as early as you can,
          And don’t have any kids yourself.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            “And don’t have any kids yourself.”
            Sound advice. Wish I’d read Philip Larkin all those years ago.
            Not sure I would have heeded his words though, because, oh, but that unbeatable enthusiasm back then, when I thought I could break the cycle of heredity of the crazy stuff in my family…

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The joys of emotional thinking.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            To be fair, my first born (my son) is the most balanced person I know. So at the time, my optimism ( aka emotional thinking), or pride maybe, saw it as a sign that I had managed to break the vicious family circle, and whispered (shouted out loud, rather): ‘hey, wonderful, this is working, let’s have plenty more babies!’ Except that it was just serendipity, this ‘normal’ child, and nothing to do with a successful effort to break the cycle, I now see.
            Glad I stopped at number 2.

          4. Renarde says:


            I had a sub once who would quote me Larkin.

            Happy Days!

      2. Fiddleress says:

        I agree that we do not all develop the same coping mechanisms to similar events, but the more I learn and think, the closer I come to the conclusion that the genetic predisposition to NPD is an extreme vulnerability. This could be why some of us feel sad when we ‘feel’ the desperation of narcissists (I know I do), because we can feel how vulnerable they really are – and since we are fixers, it makes it all the harder to know we cannot fix them. That it’s too late.

        Feeling vulnerability in someone else always gets me. I need to make an effort not to take it into consideration too much, and not to let it affect me too much. I just wish I could have been there, if only as an invisible presence, to all of them, protecting them, when the events that sealed their narcissism took place. On condition that I had been able to tell what those events were, because I might not even have been able to recognise them as potentially destructive, not having the same brand of vulnerability.

        1. Leela says:

          You´re right! I read a study about the genetics of Cluster B personality disorders. In fact, NPD is the disorder with the highest heritable factor among them all. It is believed that NPD is mostly inherited, so the patients who got it have already a high genetic predisposition. Of course the environment plays also an important role but is not as crucial as in the other Cluster B disorders.

          As I said, I feel bad for people with NPD because it is a disease! And so: It´s not their fault. It´s a severe mental illness. it is actually a brain disease. And I feel bad because there is STILL no effective treatment! If NPD-patients could be treated effectively, there also would be less victims. I think there must be SO MUCH more done for the patients AND for the victims. There must be more prevention (education!!! Education of teenagers and parents!) and there must be better therapies!

        2. alexissmith2016 says:

          I agree FD and I think genetics plays a far bigger role than we realise. It is unfortunate that some develop NPD but it is what it is. I also used to hate someone to feel vulnerble and unloved/desperate etc etc and wanted to heal them.

          I wished I could have been there to protect them but I fear they would have turned out this way no matter what. For some it was the slighted of triggers if anything. I used to want to heal and fix them but now I accept what they are and get on with my life. I recognise some have value to me whilst others do not but I don’t have any feelings for them whatsoever. And that was not because I wanted to feel that way, the more I learned from HG it simply just happened. I so wish I could pass that on to others. You can’t teach a cow to lay eggs nor can you heal the heart of a narcissist.

          And you’re so right you may not have realised what those events were which caused their NPD. In one of HGs articles or quizzes (not wanting to give away too much) but he talks of an IPPS being asleep and that the N would see this as a criticism/wounding. like what the actual fuck lol who could possibly imagine an N would be wounded by someone being asleep just because they wanted to play.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Good one about the cow not being able to lay eggs, Alexis!

            Interesting what you say about going from feeling for narcs to not feeling for them at all, anymore. I suppose I will get there too, in good time, the more I learn here. I’ve already moved on a lot since February, thanks to everything I have learnt and to HG’s and everyone’s help. Not in a straight line, of course, but HG said that was to be expected.

          2. Witch says:


            I think I partly have empathy for N’s especially as children, because of the creature. But my empathy is significantly reduced for them as they get older.

            I took shrooms recently and watched the movie “IT” and I was laughing throughout the movie because I found it funny but as I was falling asleep and seeing different shapes because of the shrooms; I was thinking about the movie and was like “IT reminds me of narcs because penny wise feeds on people’s fear and narcs feed on people’s emotions. But the creature feeds on the narc and so narcs feed on us (I actually felt like a genius for coming to this obvious realisation lol.) then I imagined myself calling my mum and saying to her, I know that a demon lurks inside of you and torments you and her saying “what are you talking about?” and me explaining to her without sounding emotional that I know the truth that a demon torments her and she’s constantly suffering, and her getting angry by what I’m saying, and me feeling elated because I’m touching a nerve.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Jees I’ve never tried shrooms and I can’t imagine watching a horror movie after taking them. Hahha you’re a brave woman witchy!

            I literally watched IT at the weekend. It wasn’t scary. But you’re absolutely spot on linking the two and narcs feed off of our emotions. Yes they have to keep their own troubles at bay to save themselves. But I deal with my own problems and I don’t feel the need to pass it on. They are narcs, that’s what they do. I won’t and can’t feel sorry for them. When I first listened to intro to the creature I felt overwhelmed with emotions of wanting to both protect them from the created yet at the same time release it in all of them because of everything they do to others. Now I simply feel indifferent towards them. They simply are what they are. But if they hurt a fellow empath the indifference subsides and I want the creature to appear.

            It’s interesting to hear how you feel re your mum. Oooh I also didn’t realise you were British too. What kind of N was she? How do you feel towards her. I feel nothing whatsoever for my N sister. I was NC with her for about 10 years. Until such a time we had no choice but to ‘reconcile’ it was hard and I hated it. But now we have no need to stay in touch, I see her ocassionally though I never seek it out and I make no effort at all.

          4. blackcoffee30 says:

            @Witch But didn’t one have to fear Pennywise to be harmed? I can’t quite remember. I guess it like when we turn our emotions to the N/s.

          5. Witch says:

            @black coffee

            Yes penny wise feeds on fear and if he’s not able to provoke fear he will “starve” and will cease to exist, at least temporarily until the next 27 years when he returns.
            Similarly narcs feed on all emotions not just fear and they need it in order to feel powerful and to function within their normal reality.
            It’s a great horror movie. I enjoyed it, even though it didn’t scare me and made me laugh, it’s good for a modern horror movie (most of them suck!)
            I’m contemplating reading the book but apparently it’s over 1,500 pages long …
            I might start with reading the shinning as that’s one of my favourite horror/thriller movies

          6. blackcoffee30 says:

            @Witch I love horror movies. I watched the sequel to The Shining day before yesterday. It was terrible IMHO. Dr. Sleep was just not good at all. Maybe my expectations were too high.

          7. Witch says:

            @black coffee

            I’ve just watched the trailer and it looks like shit.. nothing like the original. That’s the problem with a lot of horror movies made in the 2000’s, they are too on the nose. Everything is explained verbally to the audience. There’s a lack of story telling and symbolism through the cinematography

          8. alexissmith2016 says:

            Whilst on the subject of horrors. I love ‘Severance’. It’s a dark comedy. Truly hilarious and pretty damn scary too!
            HG can Ns who are not psychopaths be scared of horror movies or no?

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Yes. Such Mid Range pussies.

          10. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahahahah thanks

          11. truthseeker6157 says:

            Ooh I love a good horror movie. I don’t think men do on the whole, not in my experience anyway. I’d have to say The Grudge and The Ring are probably my top two. Anything where things move in that jerky kind of way. Freaks me out, it looks so wrong. I don’t scare easy though. Usually I’m disappointed with horror films. I get all excited it’s going to be good, then I’m like, ‘ Meh, that was rubbish’.

          12. Witch says:

            @ Alexis

            The shrooms didn’t really do much while I was awake, I didn’t take a lot. It’s only when I started falling asleep I started seeing the psychedelic shapes but they weren’t bright it was still dark. Apparently if you keep taking them and increasing how much you take you start to really trip out but I’m not that enthusiastic about drugs to do that.
            I only took it cause a friend had them so they were free.

            My mum I believe is primarily a victim narc with some somatic traits and maybe a lower midranger or upper lesser. She has a facade. She wants people to think she’s a good mother and is only struggling because of her mental health issues.
            I haven’t spoken to her at all since 7th December 2019 and that was only a brief exchange of messages.
            In terms of how I feel about her, I don’t like her and I don’t want to be like her. There nothing to her. She doesn’t do anything a part from gossip and complain, but has a cheek to say “you haven’t asked me about my day”
            Like what would be the point??? “Oh you washed the dishes today, how interesting!! Silly me for not calling you everyday to ask you how your boring non-existent day has been”
            I mean, I’m not saying I’m the most interesting person out here because I don’t have that much money to make my life more interesting but she literally has zero hobbies. Zero. A part from bitching. And asking you give her money so she can buy wine. No wonder she couldn’t get a decent man. The only thing she could use to get any man was her looks.

            I did a narc detector on my dad very recently and found out he is also a narc so I’ve changed my number which means neither of my parents can contact me.
            He is also a victim narc with somatic traits, lesser mid.

          13. alexissmith2016 says:

            Awww witch! Bloody well done on NC with both of them! So damn good! She does sound like a mid from how you describe her. My sister is an UMR her husband a LMR. My sister always went for the victim type Ns but this one was the king of them!

          14. Witch says:


            Cutting off my mum made it a lot easier to cut off my dad because he wasn’t the primary parent growing up anyway.
            My dad would try to get me by taking me on holiday and pretending that he cares but I can’t trust him around any of my attractive female friends or even my sisters (who are not his children.) I also can’t trust him not to embarrass me when he’s drunk and he’s basically an alcoholic anyway so he drinks a lot.
            I suspect that one of my sisters may be a narc but I guess she would fall under elite. I’m not sure where I would place her school, she can very impatient and intimidating like a lesser but she’s not violent like one, so maybe lower midranger or possibly upper lesser.
            She doesn’t have the whiny needy traits of the Mid midranger.
            She was the scapegoat, my mum didn’t like her because she was difficult to control but my mum is still bitter and resentful as fuck that the scapegoat cut her off. She’s obsessed over it and still brings up my sister in conversation even after years of no contact.
            I think my mum misses the fuel because she and my sister would fight like cat and dog. They would get into a shouting battle regularly and now my mum doesn’t have anyone to experience that level of drama with.

          15. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m so happy that you didn’t find it so difficult witch. I know when I went Nc with my sister that my confidence went from 0-100 overnight and I never looked back. But now we had to get back in touch it was so tough at first but she has no power over me any more and literally could not give two shits xxx my sister whilst manipulative is also incredibly easy to get along with. I just always felt there was something not quite right and now I’m able to piece it altogether it makes perfect sense. It’s funny your mum hates your sister and yer needed her. I was the scapegoat in our family. My sister the golden child. HG is there a typical rule? Do certain Ns favour the N child whilst others favour the E or is there neither rhyme nor reason to it?

          16. Witch says:


            It would be interesting to know if that were the case.
            As my mum is a victim it makes sense why she would favour the empath (me) as I meet her need to provide pity.
            Whenever I would catch on to her BS she would put on the fake tears and croaky voice and make me feel guilty.
            Once as a kid I told her she must have known that my dad was an arsehole and wasn’t going to make a good partner or parent and then she starts getting emo talking about he deceived her so how would she know. Then she brings it up again later with “you really hurt me when you said that I must have known, I told myself for years I was an idiot to not see signs.”
            Bitch YOU KNEW. She just didn’t care because it was about her being able to control him.

            All my life she went on and on telling me my dad is shit but she knew he didn’t want to have children with her and she trapped him, facts!

          17. alexissmith2016 says:

            Oh no ahahah the croaky voice – I hate that so much! My mum was not an N but she was very unwell mentally and favoured my sister who was the narc. My sister was incredibly seemingly easy going and always buttered my mum up, always. I would challenge if I felt something was unfair and although not a narc, my mum was completely unable to see anything from anyone elses perspective at all, ever. She had her view and it could not be changed. My sister somehow instinctively knew how to work her to the max. People rarely see through my sister either, she is very cunning. My husband was the first person. His recognition of the dynamics of the relationship between my mother, my sister and I was the first time I felt validated in my life. It was such a relief. Of course back then neither of us knew anything of what a narc was so it was very simplistic.

          18. alexissmith2016 says:

            Also just read your comment in another thread, “you don’t remember any ex’s”. Wahoo go witchy! Nice one!

          19. Witch says:


            Are either of your parents narcs or just your sister?
            Did your sister bully you growing up?
            I’m was bullied a little bit but my sister was also protective of us. Like no way would she let anyone outside of the family F with me in front of her. In some ways I wished I was like her, she didn’t seem like she was scared of anything or anyone. I thought it was “cool,” we probably would have been a lot closer if my mum didn’t triangulate us.
            Honestly I feel so guilty that I believed my mum and took her side most of the time.

          20. My mother, I don’t think so. But she was very mentally unstable and not from any narc influence either. She did have empathy yet at the same time truly struggled to see things from anothers perspective. But if someone went through something which she could relate to there was genuine empathy there. My father I believe was one. He had a physical health condition which meant I never really knew him. I was told he was a lovely person by everyone who knew him and I had always believed that he was. But recently I found some love letters from he to my mother pre their marriage. There is an incredibly controlling undertone in the letters. That coupled with some old photos and videos causes me to believe he was a narc. (his evil, evil sister is most definitely a lower mid) It’s difficult to quantify my sisters behaviours whilst growing up. She was always so careful to ensure she looked the perfect angel at all times, she never bullied me not in a way people would recognise as bullying. So much so even I was fooled too and led to believe that everything was my fault. My sister was never protective of me though, she never liked to put too much effort in. Although she was the eldest, I was incredibly protective of her. I idolised her whilst growing up. I did not realise she was smiling sweetly whilst stabbing me in the back. As I grew older, I knew I didnt like her, but I just didn’t know why? Of all the Ns I have come across (apart from the two greaters I know), her behaviour is the most cleverly hidden, but it is there, you just have to know how to spot it. Pre knowledge, I knew something about her was different and I couldn’t put my finger on it. Like she just seemed so empty inside and I couldn not fathom what made her tick? For me it was a love and passion for family/friends/good causes etc. But I never saw passion alive in her and I just coudn’t put my finger on it. Post knowledge I was uncertain for a long time whether she was a greater because she appears to be incredibly cunning. But I’m as certain as I can be without HG’s seal of approval that she is UMR. She literally ticks all of the boxes, it is as though the fuel matrix was based on her. My experience with her post NC, she was doing lots of sneaky things trying desperately to get one over on me and this is when I finally reaiised she must be mid range because although it appeared there was some planning, it must have been instinctive, she made far too many mistakes. Mistakes and untrained eye would have been unlikely to have worked out. But I don’t believe a greater would make these mistakes. I’d received many hoovers in the time I was NC with her, but I ignored them all. I would change my number but then my mother would give her my new number after some time which really p****** me off and I’d change it again. My friends who didn’t know the situation, would wonder why the hell I changed my number every six months or so ahahaha. I digress, she thought she was going to waltz back in and walk all over me like she always used to. But not only did I know what she was, I’d been educated by HG and I stamped out all of her manipulative ways. She thought she was going to walk away with everything and instead I pushed her in the washing machine and put her on a fast spin (figuratlvey speaking) whilst being friendly, warm and smiling the whole way through. Not to be bigger or better, it was reactive and defensive rather than an attack. I never did more than was required and I gathered evidence of everything, documentary evidence, recorded, photogrpahs, everything. She doesn’t know I have any evidence of anything and I would only use it if I ever needed to. It’s all stored in so many locations. When her manipulations failed to work, she didn’t know what hit her. But, she maintained her composure throughout and still keeps trying to be in control of me. She can’t though. Not now. She has no hold over me whatsoever but it truly doesn’t stop her from trying.

          21. Witch says:

            I’m glad to hear you were able to take back control in regards to your sister. I think my sister still resents me for being the golden child. She won’t ever say it directly but I sense it is there below the surface. I understand it because my mum would compare us and she would imply that I’m better than my sister because I had more empathy and was more affectionate and obedient and she would tell me my sister is jealous of me. Looking it back at it I’m like woah! A mother who hates her child, it’s disturbing.

            I had this vision once of me as a baby but I was outside of my body looking down, birds eye. In the vision I was probably around 6months to a year old. My mum is laying on the floor playing with me. She’s holding me with her arms stretched upwards towards the ceiling and smiling at me doing the baby talk. And then my sister comes past and is standing in the door way and my mum says to her “go and turn off the cooker.” At the time my sister would have been 3-4 years old and I found it strange that you would ask a child that young to turn off the cooker.

            I’m not sure if this actually happened but the memory seemed real in my mind.

            Not being able to understand other people’s perspectives is a red flag. I can be stubborn as hell but eventually I’ll calm down and see some truth in another’s point of view unless I know for sure that I’m right.
            Is there anything else your mother did that seems a bit off to you?

          22. alexissmith2016 says:

            It is very disturbing that a mother could hate her child. I never hnderstood parents having a favourite. I just couldn’t. Of course it makes sense to me now. That said if I had an N child (thank god I don’t) I know id be unable to love them but I would still treat them fairly. Your possible memory is really interesting.

          23. alexissmith2016 says:

            I sent before Id complete the message as I’m travelling on the underground.

          24. alexissmith2016 says:

            My mother did lots of things which were off witch and although her range of empathy was very limited, it was there. I am not the sort of person who wants to not see something if it is there. I don’t need to beleive my mother had empathy if she didn’t. We weren’t close at all, but I was always there for her no matter what. My truth seeker trait is incredibly strong and I would not wish to be in denial over anything.. She was under my sisters spell from the day my sister was born. My sister said all the gushy things a mother would want to hear but if any real work was required to support my mother she didn’t stick around.

          25. Witch says:

            Haha Alexis
            I’m going to act like how Jada Pinkett Smith did yesterday speaking on her affair
            “I did not have a relationship with that man it was a very brief entanglement that happened a long time ago when I needed to heal and I don’t know why it’s being brought up now when people are dying”

          26. Witch says:


            I just find it a bit odd that she wouldn’t be able to be close to her empath daughter. I understand being controlled by the narcissist but at same time you would still be able to have a connection with your empath children if you possessed empathy.
            Maybe I’m wrong about this because I’m not a parent. But I just feel that as an empath I can relate to a lot of different people. So if I had a child that was similar to me I’d definitely be able to feel close to them.
            I can guess that maybe some people who are significantly codependent may not be close to their children/a child when under the control of a narc because they are preoccupied with striving to please the narc.
            I don’t fully understand it because when a hold a child and look at his/her face in my heart that child is more important than anyone else.

          27. alexissmith2016 says:

            i understand it may be difficult for you to comprehend but my sister was manipulating everyone all of the time she cleverly and carefully played us off against one another so that we all thought she was wonderful and yet hated the other. I had much hatred for my mother for many years. I now understand it was largely my sister’s ding but it was too late and I’m unable to feel She always came out on top.
            I do understand your view, I will always try and see something from someone elses perspective and tr and relate to their problem where I can. But my mother was incapable unless it was something she specifically experienced herself and it had to be pretty much an exact match then she could have empathy/sympathy for them.

          28. Witch says:

            It’s sad how narcissists are able to ruin relationships between people who would other wise get along.
            I hope that maybe you’ll be able to repair some of those relationships.

            I’ve noticed that what keeps certain narcs away especially the family members and friends is when they believe that you are happy in life. If they get any inclination that you are miserable that’s when they become most invested. It’s like they sense at what point you’ll be easier to manipulate.

          29. alexissmith2016 says:

            It’s true witch thst does seem to work with some narcs but I find that some, including my sister and her husband the better my life is the more they try and compete. It’s bizarre? It wouldn’t matter if they lived in a mansion and me an apartment if I had one extra baked bean on my plate they’d have to buy more baked beans and top them off with caviar. I don’t get it? I truly don’t. I want to achieve xyz or have abc because I want to it bothers me not if others have more? Unless it’s chocolate then I’m vexed ahaha

          30. alexissmith2016 says:

            Pant man a mid ranger is one of those. He loves the downfall and he will invest so much time in people experiencing hard luck or difficult times he also uses it as an angle to seduce people ewwwwwy

          31. alexissmith2016 says:

            I was able to maintain a relationship with my mother where I was kind, dutiful, caring towards her etc although I went through many years of anger, I eventually reached a place where I was no longer angry. For me and I guess where I am fortunate in many ways is that once a relationship is over in any menaingful kind of way, I’m completely unable to reignite it. Which is obviously incredibly helpful where narcs are concerned.

            The moment I went NC with my sister it was as though I had been set free. It was such an amazing feeling and my confidence went from 0-100 literally overnight. I recall close friends etc advising me not to and saying I might regret it, but I never did. I don’t particularly like being in contact with her again now but nor does it bother me very much either and it is very limited in terms of frequency.

          32. Witch says:

            I texted my sister so that she has my new number and I didn’t receive a response so I guess I’m being punished for some unknown reason.
            I have a feeling that she’s never going to want her children to be close to me and that she would always want control over the situation. I believe her children are empaths and the only thing I have left to hope for is that they will come to me when they are adults.

            I know what you mean about narcs and their envy. You don’t have to have much but they still feel effected by anything good in your life.

          33. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m really sorry to hear that Witch. It’s really sad but I am sure you are right, although your sister will be in touch at some stage, of that you can be certain. Goodness knows what you’re being punished for, could be forgetting to put a . at the end of a sentence which they were mentioned in ffs ahaha who bloody knows. never mind men are from mars… narcs are from mars.. Now there is a heading you make a play on HG

            You have no control over what she does or says to her children. As you say you can and will be waiting for them. My sister’s children are not empaths and so I am fortunate in that respect. that said one of her children, although not an empath very much needs protecting. fortunately he is favoured by both N parents.

            I hope and pray for you that your sister’s children

          34. alexissmith2016 says:

            bugar I hit send to soon!

            I was rewriting the beginning middle and end all at the same time.

          35. Witch says:

            What I feel is going on here is that my sister wishes to outcast herself because it appeals to her victim narrative (to be “misunderstood”)
            And also so she doesn’t have to share the lime light with any of her siblings in any context. She’s found a space which only belongs to her and which her siblings can not intrude upon and good for her.
            My only concern is my niece and nephew having to live under a dominating personality when they are soft hearted and where they do not belong.
            Thanks for your best wishes. I do have a degree of belief in ESP and I have a strong feeling that one day my niece will come to realise she is different and will look for me.

          36. Witch I just saw your comment re SV being a cerebral greater on another thread. I agree he has a low control threshold. I wondered though whether he is a greater or he just thinks he is? I recall on one documentary he didn’t score as highly as he would have expected for a psychopath. I used to watch his videos a lot in the early days post knowledge but since finding HG I’ve not been back.

          37. I just don’t think a true greater would make such a twat of themselves plus his knowledge isn’t all that. He’s quite rigid in his thinking.

    2. Renarde says:


      No. You are understandably falling into the classic trap.

      People with NPD are born that way. Some may experience trauma but trauma in and of itself does not cause NPD.

      However, trauma can increase the degree of malignancy. No question.

      Two personal examples.

      A UMS and a MME. Both exs. The UMS I was with for 18 years, the MME roughly two.

      Both MRNs. The UMS had an utterly HORRENDOUS upbringing. The MME, not at all. However his father did time. But that happened when he was a teenager. It is the UMS who is utterly malignant. The MME was far more personable.

      The UMS had no real friends, the MMEs were legion. Now of course, we are dealing with two different levels but even so, there was something very strange about the UMS. He was called ‘oddbod’ at University.

      Didnt need anyone, he would say. I believe that was a product of his upbringing.

      On the other hand, the MME would insist he has depression but actually was starved of fuel.

      Both males were very likely to have had narcs as both parents so it was highly likely that they both would be narcs. I met the mother of the UMS and the father of the MME. Both were very strange people.

      In my case, certainly my father is and probably my mother too. How I turned out to be an Empath is literally anyone’s guess. Luck of the draw I suppose. I do know that I did have one empathic grandparent. Possibly two.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No, people with NPD are not born that way, we have the genetic predisposition to become a narcissist but a Lack of Control Environment is required, we do not appear as fully formed narcissists. Please see To Cope is To Control

        1. Renarde says:

          Thanks Hg. I will look it up, it’s been quite a while since I read it.

          Question if I may? Could two clearly empathic parents ever produce a child with full blown NPD?

          1. HG Tudor says:


          2. Another Cat says:


            I think the Royal family could be an example of this childhood environment. Wonder where Prince Andrew and Prince Charles got their NPD from. HG has confirmed the Queen as a normal. And I guess Prince Philip too?

            Both granddad and grandma seemed empaths (not even normals). But rather stressed out.
            Not at all like my mother, type B Mid. I’m guessing childhood.

          3. Renarde says:

            Another Cat

            You have made me fully chortle today!

            Philip is in all probability a UM. Cadre? I would tend to Elite but I’m not sure. His shenanigans at Clivedon and of course in Profumo tend towards Som. But he did establish the DoE Award scheme.

            Oh he was a norty one in his time! Btw, Randy is in all probability not his son. Google Porchester.

            I’m guessing you are US?

      2. Leela says:

        NPD has indeed has a genetic factor, but like every disease it´s a combination of multiple factors: genetics and environment. But it´s fact that NPD is a very bad mental illness. We need WAY MORE research and an effective treatment as well as more information, especially for young people about Cluster B personalities in order to prevent them to become victims of Cluster B´s.

        1. Renarde says:


          Intresting points but is NPD a mental illness though?

          As to your second point on research. Agreed.

          1. Leela says:

            Yes it is. It belongs to the Cluster B personality disorders, besides histronic PD, antisocial PD (“Psychopath”) and Borderline PD. Those are all severe mental disorders. It´s written in DSM 5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) and ICD 10 (International Classification of Diseases).

          2. Renarde says:


            I do not dispute it’s in the DMV. I’ve read it many times.

            In my view, NOD is not a true, mental disorder.

            My own mother has schizophrenia. I have PTSD. I have seen her off her fucking tits. Completely florid, many many times.

            I’ve visited mental health words. You see them. They are suffering from true mental health disorders. In so much as that they have had a total ‘break’ from what we percieve as ‘normal reality’.

            People who have NPD might exhibit behaviour which the general society perceives as ‘normal’. But they are not mad. Their thought patterns are lucid and being entirely driven by their own sense of skewed logic. Me. First.

            I saw a psychiatrist shortly before lockdown. I wanted the official diagnosis of PTSD. Reasonable?

            He had gone through my notes and clocked my own profession.

            I am looking at him in astonishment. Not one word as to how I was feeling, what my own mental state was.

            I settle back into my seat. Where is this dude going next?

            He asks me to explain a very particular point in my own field. I naturally explain. He hits the desk with his hand and yells, ‘No!’ I jump back. It goes without saying that people presenting with PTSD do NOT like loud noises. And this is a psychiatrist.

          3. Renarde says:


            I pressed send too soon.

            I recovered and sat back. Then I quintupled tracked.

            1 – Pull the monitor of its moorings and brain him with it.

            2 – Issue a stream of invective that he would never heard before (BTW, he urged me to do this. I refused.)

            3 – I walk out

            4 – I ask for assistance from a female, mental health nurse

            5 – I watch and wait.

            I opted for 5.

            On and on he went. Booorriinnngg!

            The more he chuntered on the more I though what a fucking fool he was.

            Was he mentally ill? No. Were is logical thoughts disordered? Yes.

            He spectacularly failed to assist his patient.

            What was he? A UMC with tendencies to ‘God Disorder’. But he wasnt ill. Completely lucid.

            The outcome was that when I left, I swore I would never again allow myself an ‘interview’ with a psychiatrist.

            I am largely fine. I’ll be ok.

            You might want to ponder on this one. The good doctors behind DSM VI are wanting to put ’empathy’ in there.

            Just some thinky thoughts.

          4. Leela says:

            So, you see my problem: NPD-patients act like j…. because they are in fact mentally ill! It´s horrible what they do to their victims but eventually it´s not the narcs fault because it´s an illness and there are still no decent treatment options!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            There is no treatment whatsoever, it is nothing to do with a dearth of options.

          6. Fiddleress says:

            Hi Renarde
            You wrote: “The good doctors behind DSM VI are wanting to put ’empathy’ in there.”
            Is that a fact? Did you read about this recently? I’m interested, because it seems that the DSM wants to classify way too many people as mentally ill, and I was thinking about this today: if NPD is seen as a mental illness (and I don’t think it is one), then they might as well put empaths in one of their boxes too.

          7. Renarde says:


            Read it reasonably recently. I must admit, it ground my gears. I don’t see how something that 83% of the population have is somehow abnormal.

          8. Empath007 says:

            Fidderless, in psychology both being an empath and being a narc have historically been considered neurotic disorders (especially if the empath is a co dependant – like me! haha). This is particularly evident in Karen Horney’s theories of neurosis. Where she describes Moving towards, Moving against and Moving Away from others. Empaths are in the Moving Towards Category…

            “this type needs to be liked, wanted,
            desired, loved; to feel accepted, welcomed, approved of, appreciated; to be needed; to be of
            importance to others, especially to one particular person; to be helped, protected, taken care
            of, guided”. Their need to feel safe is manifested by their need for affection and approval.
            Compliant types overemphasise similarities and disregard differences between themselves
            and others. They are sensitive to the needs of others, while neglecting their own. They live up
            to the expectations of others, despite their own feelings. They are self-sacrificing, except in
            their pursuit of affection (Horney, 1946).

            I happen to agree with Horney, I am neurotic in my own way. And my type of neurotic creates a toxic relationship with the narcs type of neurotic.

      3. Leela says:

        By the way: I have a narc-parent too and became an Empath but with a high degree of narcissistic traits.

        1. Renarde says:


          Again, you raise intresting points re affective empathy.

          Can empathy itself be nurtured? Or in other words, it is a genetic predisposition? Just like NPD?

          1. Leela says:

            Empathy seems to sit in the left anterior insula region of the brain of the brain, where narcs lack gray matter. So narcs seem to lack gray matter in the Cerebral Cortex.

          2. Renarde says:


            Can you support this with empirical evidence?

            Not being as we say in the North, ‘obby’

            Genuinely wish to know. .

    3. Empath007 says:

      I agree with AS2016. There are people who actually break the pattern of abuse… by not abusing others as they were. That, in my opinion, takes far more strength and courage to over come it and not repeat the pattern. I don’t feel sorry for narcissists… not anymore… now I just simply try and avoid them as best I can, as they have no interest in change.

      1. Renarde says:

        Well said.

  13. Twisted Heart says:

    I think I really hurt a friend of mine and I feel awful. He checked off so many narcissistic boxes but I didn’t want to give up on him because we have been friends and really enjoy each other. I finally got to a breaking point and unleashed on him. I tried to make things right. Now I’m really worried that I wounded him deeply, he may not even be a narc. It’s very hard for me not to see people through that filter now. I guess I would like some reassurance that he will be alright. We’re no longer in contact.

    1. Renarde says:


      Put your mind at rest. He was very probably a N.

      He deserved it. Move on. Pick better friends x

  14. Love says:

    This was a very touching piece. It actually brought tears to my eyes. I have always understood their need for control … and therefore have never tried to fight it. I’ve been told, why do you let them win? Why do you not get back your power? But there is something far deeper at play. They need that control. It is crucial for their sense of security. Why would I try to take away something that soothes them so? I empathize. I feel. Take what you need to be at peace.

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