Victim or Volunteer – Part 2

VICTIM-OR-VOLUNTEER-PT-2

 

The devaluation. People often regard this as one complete stage that follows the glorious seduction of the golden period. It is in fact made up of two parts. First comes the stranger period. It is so called because to you it seems like you are dealing with somebody completely different to the person that you know and love.

This is when the transition occurs between the seduction and the insidious abuse that is just around the corner. This stranger period should be regarded as the calm before the storm and if you are among the few who recognise it when it happens it is a clear signal to you to get out. Most do not of course recognise it.

They perhaps see it as the relationship moving beyond the honeymoon period and since there is no horrible treatment per se, they do not realise that the stranger period (which is still a stark contrast to the golden period) is in actual fact a warning. The stranger period is at the beginning of the period of devaluation and is a clear marker that there are far worse times ahead.

You are unlikely to query this shift from golden period to the stranger period in any great detail. Should you have done so? Should you have paid greater attention to us (just as we always have demanded)? Should you have wondered why we did not answer your telephone call with the enthusiasm that we once did? Ought you to have questioned why we seemed less interested in doing things with you? Did you see it and put it down to us being tired?

Maybe you just thought it was because we had had a rough day at work? You asked if we were okay and we assured you that we were, but there was no conviction in our responses. They were flat and other worldly but you did not press any further. Why not? Perhaps you should have done?

Perhaps if you had done so you would have taken greater heed of what it was signifying or was it asking too much of you to realise that was coming? Nobody has any idea of what this stranger period signifies when they first encounter out so why would you be any different? Perhaps the view that you failed to heed this warning is a harsh one?

What then of the devaluation proper when the darkness descended and the abuse came? Of course it is the false default setting of our kind that everything is your fault. That is the way that we have been created. That is the way that we conduct ourselves in order to protect our fragility from criticism.

We must project, blame-shift and remain unaccountable whilst ensuring that you are regarded as culpable, liable and blameworthy. It is part of the matrix of control that we deem necessary to apply against you. Yet, if one strips away this all to readily applied blame what then? Would the objective observer reach the conclusion of victim or volunteer? What do you think? Do not think that this is one of our standard exercises of attributing blame, I have already conceded that such blame-shifting is one of our key manipulations, but I am lifting that usual approach and posing the question as to whether during devaluation you might be regarded as a victim or volunteer?

The first time we doled out a silent treatment which lasted a day? Should you have known then what you were dealing with and distanced yourself? Is that unrealistic? What about when there was the second period of being frozen out? Or the third? Maybe not after those, after all, you dealt with them didn’t you? Perhaps you ought to have realised when we lost our temper with you?

When those savage words and insults were shouted at you? That is emotional violence. That is abusive. Why did you not walk away then? You stayed. Could it then be argued you volunteered for more dressings down? How about when we began to gaslight you? We toyed with your reality, confusing and bewildering? Did you recognise what was going on? But you are clever, resourceful and independent, surely you knew what was happening? Besides, this was taking place alongside the shouting matches and the cold shoulders.

Surely the alarm bells were ringing now weren’t they? Did you hear them and ignore them or did you just not hear them? What about the times we took your car without asking? Ate the food you had set aside? Stopped you sleeping properly by elbowing you all night? What about the repeated stopping out late and the flirtation with other women? Surely you noticed all of that, in fact we know you did, because we made sure you did so to enable us to get our precious fuel. So, you experienced all of this and you still stayed. Does that make you a volunteer as the abuse continued?

What about the first time we shoved you back during an argument? No? How about the second time when that shove sent you into a wall and you banged your head? No? Surely when that first slap stung your cheek, then you must have realised what was happening and yet you stayed after that.

Does that make you no longer a victim but a volunteer instead? Of course nobody ever asks to be treated that way. You are not volunteers in that sense but given you realised that certain behaviours towards you were wrong, unpleasant and downright nasty, you obviously spotted them so why did you remain and allow yourself to be subjected to even more?

You are your own person, surely, you should have realised and walked away? You might refer to not being able to because of money, housing, accommodation and children. Perhaps they are considerations but when pitted against your own safety and sanity, which should be protected first?

Accordingly, reflecting on all that happened to you, the repeated manipulative and abusive behaviours which were never isolated examples but rather repeated and increasing violations against you, could it be said that you were a victim or did you in fact volunteer by remaining in the firing line? I would welcome your observations.

Putting aside my usual blaming behaviours I would offer you this conclusion. To volunteer is to be able to exercise a degree of decision-making and control over your own person. You were never allowed that control.

We took it.

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121 thoughts on “Victim or Volunteer – Part 2

  1. wildviolet22 says:

    This reminds me of how sometimes with substance abuse or addiction, people will debate about whether or not it’s a “choice”. But really, once a person slips into addiction, it’s not like they are waking up and saying “will I choose my family, or alcohol today?”, like they are are deciding between eggs or a bagel for breakfast. And to get out of the mess of addiction, it does take certain character traits, mindset and tools to get out. It’s more complicated than simply “choosing”.

    Same with the concept of “bottom”. Lots of debate on what that is. I’ve known many, many people at this point in my life, where their “bottom” ended up being death. Not everyone reaches some fictitious “bottom” that they then rise from the ashes from. To me, all it is, is the it’s the day you take a good hard look at where your behavior and habits are taking you, and you decide you aren’t going to participate in it anymore. And then you follow through on actions to get yourself out.

    With my person who I ended up here over, I don’t think of myself as being a “victim” necessarily, but I did let things drag out longer than I would have liked. I got swept up by ET, and ignored early warning signs, and I became disgusted with myself as time went on. I’d be over 10 months no contact now if I didn’t unblock and make contact when the virus started. Now I’m almost at 4 again, and I keep reminded myself, if I don’t continue to follow through with the blocking and no contact, no one is going to do it for me. It’s up to me to do what needs to done from my end, so I don’t slip back and pick up that self destructive “drug” again.

    1. Lily says:

      “To me, all it is, is the it’s the day you take a good hard look at where your behavior and habits are taking you, and you decide you aren’t going to participate in it anymore. And then you follow through on actions to get yourself out.”

      Totally agree, wildviolet22- whether it is about a certain type of individual or about any addiction. I am blessed to have close friends who minced no words when they saw the impact (of one individual) on me and delivered tangible action points. But even with such intervention, the real responsibility for embarking on change rests on oneself.

  2. Lily says:

    I read this just now: https://www.scarymommy.com/open-letter-man-i-wish-you-were/
    It sounds so familiar… Grew up in such a household and may have also ended up in the same situation. :/

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Re: Open letter to the man I wish you were.

      Reading stuff like that is dangerous to raising ET off the charts. It is dripping so heavily with ET that the change she speaks of effecting “tomorrow” I would bet money will never come. She is begging for another reason to stay. A sign. Anything.

      The truth is he is a mere man and there are millions of them. Find one that doesn’t make you wonder if you’re getting man or monster each day. He will sure as shit find another pawn.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Correct.

      2. Bibi says:

        Oh dear. That letter is just sad.

      3. Lily says:

        She is full of ET and will remain so- unless one is made of sterner stuff (in which case, she would have ditched him a long time ago) or visits this site (or gets convinced by family/friends). Until then, it’s easy to think: “He wasn’t like this when we met. He will change”; “All those shared life experiences. How can I leave him?”; “I love him too much to abandon him like everyone else did”, ….
        That letter is indeed very tragic.

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      That was a beautiful letter written straight from the heart of an empath. Thank you for sharing it, Lily.

      While it’s obvious to us that she needs to leave for her own sake and the sake of her children, I imagine many at the same time understand completely the dynamic she is explaining and why it is so hard to let go. We read it in so many of HGs articles. We’ve felt it in our own bones. She personifies so many of us.

      She doesn’t mention narcissism, but describes it perfectly. I wonder if she is even aware.

      1. BC30 says:

        She is not and if she is, she is in denial. The Emotional Sea is treacherous.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          I would have to agree with you BC30. The emotional sea is a most treacherous place.

          Not quite sure I’ve crossed it completely yet … had a dream about my narc last night and that’s the second one in the last couple of weeks. The first one was hopeful, the second not so much. Took me right back to the dynamic of the relationship which we all know is never going to be what we want it to be.

          1. BC30 says:

            Sending you love LET.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you BC30 x It is much appreciated, and also returned <3

          3. JB says:

            Sorry, LET. I know it’s no consolation, but you aren’t alone. I thought I was making real headway, then nearly broke NC. Don’t even know why. It’s hard. Sending you hugs xx

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, JB <3

            I've come close recently and it's only this place and what I have learned here that has kept me from breaking NC. Encouraging others reinforces the need to stay NC as well. I hope you're doing OK x

          5. JB says:

            Thanks, LET x

            I’m ok. I was that close the other day to breaking NC though. A few things happened, and then I read that article (which I read in a completely different way to how I would have done if I had been having a better day) and just got this tugging, rising feeling inside me. Imagine it must feel similar when you are addicted to something and get the urge for a fix. Anyway, at least I recognise the feeling, I guess, that way I can see it for what it is and avoid it. Cold turkey is the only way! Hope you are feeling better today x

          6. A Victor says:

            JB, I almost broke NC yesterday too. I do not feel that I am implementing it properly yet, part of the problem. Also part of the problem is that even if I do, I have his email embedded in my mind, there’s no changing that. So, it really does rest on me to not reach out. But I can make it more difficult for him to reach out at least.

            I think you are on to something regarding figuring out what triggers the urge to break NC in us. I have no idea why that thought came, I had my fingers on the phone ready to type a message to him but then thought of the disappointment from my children if I did it. That was what stopped me. No idea where the thought came from yet, what I was doing that might have brought it on. And, it vanished as quickly as it came, thankfully. I’m glad you overcame your ET too, hang in there!

          7. JB says:

            AV, part of what stopped me breaking NC was everyone on here! Helps to have someone else spurring you on x

          8. A Victor says:

            Yes, JB, I agree.

    3. JB says:

      Lily, gosh I had a lump in my throat reading that letter. It’s like a grieving process of sorts; lamenting the loss of the ‘nice’ person, yet knowing at the same time that that person never truly existed.

      1. A Victor says:

        I’m feeling it entirely as a grieving process, and it’s horrible. I want so badly to check in and see how he is with his new liver but I know it is a dangerous thing to even allow myself to think. I have to keep reminding myself that he would eventually likely discard me and I’d have to start that process all over again and from an even worse place. It is an ongoing battle. And to remind myself that he is not that good person of his illusion, which in all honesty wasn’t even that good, but it was all a lie and he is not good and he does not have my good at heart. Anyway, just where I’m at, it seems many here are well beyond and able to see a bigger picture, I look forward to that day.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          It is a grieving process, AV, and one that cant take quite some time. You seem to have hit on all the right reasons as to why we shouldn’t look back but keep moving forward. And like grieving, I think it comes in waves. Good days and bad days. Sometimes it can feel overwhelming. I’m feeling tempted to wonder what my narc is up to at the moment as well, and have spent part of the last few months checking out the obituaries during the Covid crisis! I was bitter enough at the end to want to see his name listed (probably breaking no contact by doing that and deserve a rap over the knuckles, but at the same time hadn’t really thought of it that way). You are a far better person in terms of wanting to congratulate him on his new liver, but it doesn’t change the reality of what he is and the need to avoid him. You have support here in your journey. And keep looking forward to that day xox

          1. A Victor says:

            LET, yes, it comes in waves, good days and bad days, it seems overwhelming at times and it goes against every grain in me to not congratulate someone on something so big as a new liver. I have thought if I knew he would respect it i could say “Congrats… But don’t contact me again…” But he wouldn’t. So, I feel like a bad person for not congratulating him. But I think I can live with that. It helps thinking that other people probably are so he’s likely not even thinking about the fact that I haven’t, lol! Thank you for the support!! I am very grateful!

        2. Asp Emp says:

          Hello AV. Interesting to see you using “as a grieving process”. It does seem that you are understanding and ‘reasoning’ with yourself – using your Logical Thinking without allowing your Emotional Thinking to rule your thoughts as much as once did. Remind yourself that it has not really been long in your ‘circumstances’ so in my opinion, you are doing really well. “many here are well beyond and able to see a bigger picture” – you can give yourself more credit than that – you are on your way. Your ‘focus’ is good. Well done & stay on that line of thinking – before long you’ll be ‘weaponised’ x

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Beautifully captured, AE x

            Like taking a picture.

            This is where you are now.

            It’s one stage in the journey.

          2. A Victor says:

            Thank you Asp Emp, I appreciate your kind words. You do seem to have more faith in me than I have in myself, lol! It is nice to have a vote of confidence though, it makes me want to succeed that much more. Two things. I am recognizing that the ET is felt as a hole in my stomach. Not like hunger but more like a dull nagging pain almost. I do feel it less and less as time goes on. Secondly, I will need to get used to the fact that is okay to be what I perceive as “mean” to the narc. Like, I would never not respond to a person who has reached out to me. I can’t even fathom it. Yet, it’s what I’m doing to him and, I don’t have a choice. It’s very strange.

            The grieving phrasing was from JB, it does describe the feeling well, for me at least. It doesn’t feel the same with regard to my mother but I ordered How to Handle a Parental Narcissist today, listened to about the first 15 minutes of it and cried through about 14 minutes of those. Very unexpected, it may take me a while to get through the whole thing. So I think there is grief there but I’m so in the middle of it that it doesn’t hit me that way all the time.

            I will keep working toward weaponization, thank you for your encouragement!

          3. Asp Emp says:

            You are more than welcome AV. Its good to cry – let it all out. Some people may bottle it up too much or not really have / had opportunity to be ‘human’. I have done my own crying – as I did after I read ‘The Creature – An Introduction’ – it took me a couple days or more to ‘digest’ the new understanding on that, I was able to understand my own “emotional pain” & bottled up but now released negative and unwarranted (like ‘forced’ pain) that was not my doing. Ok, I’ll let you get on with your newly-coming-to-terms-with-“everything”-until-it-makes-sense. It’ll hurt – but let it out. xx

        3. JB says:

          Think we are at the same stage, A Victor. I can see a bigger picture, but I am struggling to ‘feel’ it, so to speak.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            I think it can take a while for our feelings to catch up with our thinking sometimes. Especially in this situation, JB. And I think the logical thinking aspect is all about grasping those thoughts so that they can eventually translate to our feelings and help reduce the emotional thinking HG talks about. Hopefully that will happen soon for all of us, but we’re on the right track for now x

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Hello JB. We all have our different ‘journeys’, some progress quicker than others. Your goal is the same but your way of getting there won’t be the same as mine or AV’s. The ‘picture’ looks different when standing & then walking 6 feet north compared to walking 6 feet south. Or you could go side-ways (like ‘further’ assessment of path ahead) before walking north. You’ll get there, have confidence in yourself. This site is the only place where you will find all the answers on your quest. X

          3. A Victor says:

            JB, I struggle to see the bigger picture yet most days. I feel like progress has been very slow but I don’t feel that pain in my stomach as constantly as I did 6 weeks ago. This tells me there is progress. It has flashed a couple of times, like I can see what life was like prior to meeting this person, and it was good! I want to go back to that but now it will be with a bit less naivete about some harsh realities in the world. And I fight against this. I don’t want there to be these hurts and consequences and ugliness. It dims everything. I’m trying to see it as a positive, that the real reality is that through this I’m getting in touch with my empathic side, a part of me that had been a mystery to me most of my life. And that I’m going to be stronger in the end, and more perceptive. But the here and now, ugh. I hope our friends here are right, and I believe they are, that from practicing logical thinking will come the feeling part of it. That’s my hope for all of us.

          4. JB says:

            Thanks, Asp Emp, that means a lot. Yes this site has been amazing. The big thing holding me back was closure, or lack thereof. My narcissist is never going to give me that, but HG is the medium through which I will finally get it.

          5. JB says:

            LET, it will happen for us all, you are right. I guess it all goes in peaks and troughs, such is life x

          6. JB says:

            AV, I think you are right that it is a positive sign that you aren’t feeling the pain in your stomach so much now. My problem is that I keep expecting things to gradually get better and then be fine, whereas I guess the reality is that it won’t go in straight lines. What you said about naivety is spot on. In a sense I was in blissful ignorance before stumbling across the narcissist, I kind of want to go back to that, but the sad fact is you can’t ‘unlearn’ things x

          7. A Victor says:

            JB, yes, the sick sensation in my stomach gets worse with heightened ET. This is something new, the fact that I’m aware of it. It’s helpful to be aware as now I can take steps to lower my ET as needed. Three whole feeling thing is so new to me, it’s odd but I think I’m gonna like it!

    4. NarcAngel says:

      To the author of the letter or anyone taken in by it:

      “I hope that we can meet on horseback under the stars, where the monster can’t find us”

      Jesus wept. Side order of cheese with full plate of addiction right there.

      Stark reality:
      He IS the monster, ACTING like just a man on a horse so you can love him and remain thinking he loves you back.

      Grasp that and you have a chance.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Jesus wept. He did indeed. And continues to do so for all of us caught in this toxic dynamic.

        Grasp that and you do have a chance.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Jesus wept was sarcasm of course. I choose to believe that Jesus doesn’t exist because it seems preferable to the fact that if he does…

          Jesus WATCHED and did nothing and continues to do so.

          I refuse to be victim to another illusion but understand that others still find comfort in that one.

          1. BC30 says:

            You do not believe that Jesus ever existed or that he existed but the Son of God business is rubbish?

            I believe Jesus was an Empath, which I’ve mentioned before. I never got around to answering why I believed that in a thread elsewhere.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            BC
            I believe there might have been a man named Jesus who people became convinced (through manipulation) was the son of God. (who I believe also to be an illusion).

            It is no wonder to me that people can easily become victims of narcissism if they buy into that, which I refer to as:

            The First Fraud

            In both cases (narcissism and religion) there is belief in an illusion that keeps people ensnared and compliant. They are embraced because both engender hope and that is a much softer landing than reality. That is how religion gained it’s foothold and narcissists continue to exploit that which we have been conditioned to believe. It’s an easy con really – believe in the intangible, (God and Jesus, or the goodness that you just know is hidden away in the narcissist you are entangled with) and you shall be rewarded.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            And I read it as sarcasm, NA, so I was on the money there.

            You are entitled to your opinions, I have no argument with that, but what I object to is your sarcastic tone supposedly in service of the truth. I prefer truth with compassion, so your blunt rhetoric does not always go down well with me. And I’m sure you’re not concerned. Much as I am not concerned to take you up on it.

            The story presents of a woman caught up in the throes of the narcissistic dynamic. Most of us on this blog have been there and I, personally, will not diss myself for being in that place and understanding the thoughts of someone else who is. The story is relatable and the writer deserves compassion. I’m sure you’re hard nosed style would be entirely helpful to her in that moment to move her away from the toxic dynamic and into a more helpful and healing one. And, yes, that last part is sarcasm .

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Lickem

            This is a blog with varied personalities, opinions, and styles of delivery, some of which may not resonate with you, but you do not represent everyone or the phase they might be in. AV’s comment demonstrates this.

            I do understand what the story presents. Your response has only highlighted my point.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Anyone who has been here for some time understands and accepts your first point, NA. And AVs comment may represent an understanding of the concept you are trying to convey, but my issue is with the delivery. In particular the mocking tone.
            While that may be helpful to some, depending on where they are in their journey, and I have benefited from some straight talking here in the past, the focus relates to the article in question. A dose of reality is required by us all, but how it is applied to this woman’s situation, along with the suggestion some of us may have been taken in by it, is the issue at hand. Who was ‘taken in’ by the article? Because we empathized with her it is assumed we are ‘taken in’? That’s quite stretch of the imagination. She fully expressed the cognitive dissonance of most victims of narcissistic abuse and that is validating to me. Doesn’t mean we need to jump on the bandwagon of return to our narcissists, nor does it mean she is wrong to express her feelings/experience. You may understand what the story presents, but the woman in question does not deserve a certain element of the remedy you applied.

            The hope is the shift to a greater sense of reality comes to us all eventually.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “This is a blog with varied personalities, opinions and styles of delivery.”

            LET, NA, let me show you something. A blast from the past.

            https://narcsite.com/2020/06/25/utopia-6/

            Various empaths were on this thread and responding to my going off the rails. HG correctly called ET (and inexperience) as being behind my reaction. He demonstrated the cold, hard logic that we depend on him for. The empaths responded in lots of different ways, all intent on trying to help me. The styles are very different though, it’s a good thread to illustrate.

            There are different things in play. Length of time on the blog, ET levels, point in recovery. LET, you and I arrived roughly the same time, different situations, but very similar personalities I think. We are always going to get each other.
            So many lovely comments though, people reaching out really trying to help. NA comments too. Far further on in recovery. She appears cooler because of this but she’s working away at me just the same.

            That article got to me. It will always get to me. I had decided to go. At that point and on that thread I was answering the comments one by one, before I left. I had decided that I wasn’t progressing quickly enough. My comments were at risk of holding others back. That this wasn’t going to work for me.

            We need different people at different times. What shakes awake one, may seem harsh to another. I don’t even know what I need some days in honesty but what I do know is that within the various comments from HG or another empath, I usually find it here. My needs are met.

            In this instance, ironically, when I was really sad, out of the various voices, it was NA’s voice I heard the most clearly. Snap out of it ! …. I’ll see you tomorrow. “ Ha ha. She was right there. On another day, it might not have worked. On that day it did. I’m glad she was there, because she was right.

            My point (hang in there HG), it takes different empaths on different days to reach us. My views or my thoughts might not always coincide with others and that’s ok. What I am certain of though is the intention behind them. The intention is always good.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            I like your ‘good logical reasonings’ applied. We all have different “journeys” with the same goal to achieve, because of the same “reason” – narcissism. I couldn’t understand HG’s “definitions” of LT & ET straight away – by reading his various articles & viewing them at different angles (with my neurological wiring) – I got it. Your input on this thread was good to see xx

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Asp,

            Thank you for your comment. I am feeling clearer these days 😎. Jury is out for the 15th of this month though. (Narc’s birthday and the first I’ll have ignored) I might be anticipating it as being a bigger deal than it will be though. If I go cray cray on that day, you can tell me I’m going cray cray ha ha!

            How’s you? Are you doing ok with lock down?

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Hello TS! Ah. 15th? LOL you will NOT believe it – same date as Lesser’s – probably why small dick decided to do what he did to me last week….. look, 15th is neither narcissists day. It’s yours and mine – we must not let HG down. Or ourselves. Don’t think it’s 15th today. I won’t be – that door was slammed – with defiance (some may call it ‘attitude’ but I don’t care 😉😂). Ok, if I see anything from you on 15th, I’ll be saying summat – to give you “nudge”.

            Sigh. Yesterday afternoon,
            my ISP decided to be complete twats & Windows 10 “Update” goes balls up & the ISO “download” MS Support did remotely could take up to 18 hours. 18! WTF. So I’m using mobile & 1 finger – while ISO hogs my PC – not accessing email at mo. Yeah, I’m having a great time!! Lovely!! But hey my ET is still down.

            Lockdown? Thanks for asking. I’m staying safe. I’ll be gung-ho once more when PC sorted. I’m ok actually (miss having a cuppa & natter with a friend – she’s got kids – so I stay away to reduce covid risk). Hope you are ok too. xx

          10. NarcAngel says:

            TS
            Yes, intention is key. Some people see it straight away, others take time, and some will never do. The majority of the comments on here are of the comforting kind, so people who prefer that have a lot of selection and are free to stay in that comfort zone, but sometimes a jolt or logic blast can be effective – as it was for you on that day, or for AV to keep her repeating “he is that monster” to keep her from contacting. I am here because of narcissism also. Should I not be able to express my feelings?. I am able to mock the cheese in that article because I am applying logic. There is no good man sewn to a monster or a monster stalking a good man, but when people are still susceptible to emotional thinking or on the cusp of engaging again they read that stuff and start thinking of the “good man” they thought they had. That’s what I mean by taken in. I understand that people felt that at one time and there is no diss in that. It is rather the fact that if you are here now and know what a narcissist is, you should not be finding beautiful sentiment in that writing but seeing it for what it really is: dangerous and erroneous emotional sentiment that keeps the focus on the “good man” that never existed instead of the monster that he is and keeps people engaged or worse yet – once out, has them return to more abuse. Once you are out of the emotional thinking you will see it in a different light. My intention is to draw the focus to logic and sometimes that will hurt but my intention is good.

            If people don’t like what I offer they can scroll on by, but trying to censor me seems as selfish as they think I am callous. They have the majority of the comments for comfort. We are not all the same.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            I do see your point about how dangerous it can be to read an article like that and empathise with the writer. I do understand what you are driving at there. Similarly I can admit to feeling empathy for the writer. Your heart does go out to her because we remember feeling the same, the absolute pain of it, still do occasionally on an ET day, and therein lies the danger. That dwelling thing, and man I love to dwell! I do see your warning and it is a valid one.

            Speaking of which, have you listened to HG’s golden period YouTube vid? I’ll be honest, as much as I should have grasped this earlier, should have clicked, that everything of the golden period is a manipulation, I actually hadn’t. I saw it as mirroring, saw it as false in that it was glamourised and embellished and I knew the narc was basking in fuel rather than sentiment. Somehow though I saw this period more as the narc’s ‘norm’ if you like, with devaluation the darkest side of him and a switch to draw fuel. So, not a cruel person as such, more an ‘average’ person lacking in sentiment whilst embellishing.

            It’s only after listening to the video that I finally switched into thinking, the whole thing, from the very first moment is just cruelty, manipulation, control and utter disdain and disregard for the empath. I have been on the blog for 6 months, as active as I am and yet it only fully clicked yesterday. I can’t even verbalise what I mean properly yet. My only excuse is that if you do have emotion, and to a higher than average degree, it’s exceptionally difficult to fully comprehend what it actually means for the narcissist not to have it. For me to hug the narc, he literally feels nothing other than the physical pressure. Like me being hugged by a robot. I would feel no benefit from being held. I would never miss the hug of the robot. No wonder HG says he would only hug to share body heat stuck up a mountain.

            Your logic is as correct as it is needed because even when I thought I understood it, I didn’t. I think I might be starting to now. I have been projecting so much of what’s mine onto him. It’s twisted in its own special way.

            Tuesday Nov 10th 2020. Truthseeker finally gets with the program!

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Laughing at that. Good, the 15th can be our day then. We can have a virtual drink while giving them the middle finger ha ha.

            I sympathise with your ‘slight technical problem.’ Apparently, I have only 4% worth of anger in my narcissistic traits. Four whole English percent! But, if you want to access that 4%, technical stuff will do it. Nothing enrages me faster than that. How my iPad is still in one piece is beyond me. Those armoured cases really do work! Tried and tested! Oh and shapes, shapes will do it too, obviously.

            Very wise with your friend and lockdown. Worry not, we have the cure! ( just don’t hold your breath, Hancock still has time to mess that one up.)

            Glad to see your patience is eminently superior to mine and you are doing well. Only three weeks to go, well almost. Xx

          13. Asp Emp says:

            15th is on! But let’s keep our middle fingers to ourselves!

            😂😂 about your Ipad still being in one piece. I don’t follow about the ‘shapes’. It’s not triangular by any chance? LOL.

            Who’s Hancock? 😉 That guy probably spends more time accessing the “kit” (sniggering).

            Thanks, I think my sanity is probably questionable 😂 Ask me on this in 3 weeks LOL xx

          14. NarcAngel says:

            TS
            I have listened to The Golden Period on YouTube and encourage everyone to do the same. HG could not spell it out more clearly that it is all illusion and manipulation. The only good is that which we project onto them and the sooner that is understood by whatever method and no matter how painful the better. We do not all have the luxury of having reality come eventually. There may be for instance children, finances, or physical safety besides the emotional needs for some that are increasingly endangered in that time.

            HG does not deliver the truth with compassion. His work can be quite brutal at times, but it is the most effective bar none.

          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi TS, thank you for that walk down memory lane x

            We were both new then and I read through the comments which was encouraging.

            We do need different things on different days, and will respond differently accordingly. A good dose of logic never hurt anyone, but when it is coupled with sarcasm that is where I draw the line. I’m not a fan of sarcasm and never have been. It is unnecessary in my mind in the pursuit of logic and as can be seen by my reaction only serves to raise ET rather than lower it. I don’t think that is the aim here. The possibility of ET already being raised exists, but I’ll stand by my comments in this instance regardless of that.

            While the intention may be good, serving it up with sarcasm takes away from its original intent from my perspective.

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            No one is trying to censor you, NA. You brought it, and I brought it back. Simple as that. You applied your dose of logic in a particular fashion in relation to this article and I responded to the way in which that was done. The logic I do not have any objection to per se. We are all on the other side of a narcissistic relationship or multiple narcissistic relationships. And we all need logic to keep us on track. I won’t scroll by your comments as I find them for the most part valuable and in general not lacking in compassion. The way logic was applied in this situation I did not find helpful. I read and responded to this article differently to you and fail to see the need to join sarcasm with logic. An ability to identify with someone else’s situation does not mean an immediate suspension of our logic. For me it only reinforced the reality of what I had escaped, while at the same time capturing part of the sentiment that went with that experience, or the cognitive dissonance. That is validating, not disempowering. The woman in question needs to be empowered. No doubt there are various ways to make that to happen. My only hope is that she gets that dose of logic in a manner that is helpful to her and will move her on from the place she is in.

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            Agree, The Golden Period YouTube has to be listened to / read by all.

            In fact, even though longer term readers might recognise the odd video from an article here, I think we still need to listen or re read from the links HG is posting. There is an added dimension to this material and I’m getting a lot from it. So, if you haven’t already, please make the time to review it if you can!

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Many of the videos are extended beyond what has been written also.

          19. Asp Emp says:

            I will take a look at the Golden Period one – when my bleepin compoota problem resolved…. ah yes. My sledge hammer 😉

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            I believe they call the iPad ‘rectangular’ but don’t quote me on it ha ha.

            Shapes are a battle in terms of putting stuff together. The air in my kitchen turns red every morning when I have to put together and take apart, the monstrosity that is my masticating juicer. Ha ha, I know you are laughing and, I also know why!

            I wonder if Matt has one?!

          21. Asp Emp says:

            😂😂rectangle. I had to read the word before ‘juicer’. Twice. Nope, not spelt wrong 😂😂 Wondered if you’d box & post that appliance to Matt – might help him think more clearly? 😈
            (Sorry HG, I know – you’d rather spend your time doing work. Thank you for this).

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            It is strange when you look back at yourself on older threads isn’t it? Only a few months and you can see the changes. People still sound the same to me, they still feel the same, but you can see the gradual changes as the material HG provides starts to sink in then gradually change us. In some ways back to how we were pre narc in other ways better than we were.

            Considering our state of mind upon arrival though, the sadness and confusion, when I read older threads, I read them like fond memories. You wouldn’t expect that necessarily, but I think we all do that to a greater or lesser extent. I think that says quite a lot for the value of this place.

            Stay strong LET, don’t dwell 😉 xx

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            Now I’m not sure if this is logical thinking or emotional thinking, but I am avoiding the Golden Period video like the plague! I’m afraid it is just going to raise my ET and I don’t want to remember how good it was, I just want to remember how bad it all felt when it came to an end so I can keep walking away. Is there something wrong with my thinking here? I want to spit on the golden period and then stamp it into the ground, crushing into the dirt and then spit on it again. Is this an indication of raised ET? I would think it helps to prompt me in the right direction, but maybe not …

          24. Asp Emp says:

            Hello LET. I wanted to reply to your comment. I hear you. You don’t have to watch this video, or read / watch every single article on the blog – there is so many others available to read / watch. Absolutely, if you feel you need to ‘spit’ on the ‘Golden Period’ that you experienced with that narcissist – by all means, do. Write the words on a piece of paper – My Golden Period With You Was S**t. Then screw it up and throw it on the floor and stamp on it (in your home, not in public). If you have to do it your way, then do. It does not mean your ET is increased, maybe, just a ‘blip’ that has been triggered. That’s ok. I recall you responding to my comments when I first came to this blog, I have not forgotten that. I also recall you saying that you have vulnerabilities (like I have mine) – and this is important as some people tend to forget something like that. You’re just lashing out – that’s ok – that is what this space is for. You’re a strong headed woman. As this blog is online – not in person (face to face) so it is not as if anyone can kiss & make up’……. chin up lass, we’re all on your side, not the narcissist’s xx

          25. NarcAngel says:

            LET
            You are not trying to censor? You have delivered post after post outlining:
            Your disapproval and issue with my delivery and mocking tone while acknowledging that it might be helpful to some but……
            Referring to me as using rhetoric when in my opinion you employ it yourself
            Told me what you do prefer (truth with compassion)(suggesting what you would approve of).
            Objection to my “sarcastic tone” and stated you draw the line at sarcasm, you are not a fan, and find it unnecessary while using sarcasm twice yourself.
            Explained to me what the letter means as if I didn’t understand and told me that the woman deserves compassion (telling me how I should feel and respond).

            Seems to me your judgemental opinions of me don’t differ much from those you feel I passed on the author of the letter.

            But if you’re honest, it’s not really about the letter is it?

            So we viewed and responded to the letter differently. That’s ok. You do you and I’ll do me.

            Let’s leave it at that. HG has opinions to moderate other than ours.

          26. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HG,
            Yes, I noticed that. There is additional information and also an injection of humour where appropriate. I appreciate that, a pause in the midst of sometimes quite hard hitting subject matter. We need that. I think the Ultra channel is a very worthwhile addition.

          27. NarcAngel says:

            TS
            Yes, I’ve noted that there is additional content in the videos to what has been written previously, so people really should listen to them. You often get something different out of reading/listening again anyway because we are often in a different mindset the next time.

          28. lickemtomorrow says:

            Sure NA, you do you and I’ll do me.

            It’s obvious we’re not going to agree.

            Thank you, HG, for allowing the airing of the difference of opinion here.

          29. NarcAngel says:

            LET
            I understand you might not want my take on The Golden Period video but I’ll offer it anyway. I did not see it as glorifying that period or making you want to return to it, rather it explains how it differs according to your place in the fuel matrix and describes the manipulations involved (and it is all manipulation). I doubt it would make you long for it so I recommend it.

            T.S should be along with her take in 3…2…

          30. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp, Sledgehammer huh? There I was lauding your superior patience!
            As for the appliance, it simply is not functioning properly. I shall take it back, replace it with a new one, yes, that is what must be done!

            Agree. We have taken enough moderating time. Asp, as always, a pleasure xx.

            HG, thank you for allowing us to have a giggle, we appreciate you.

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            In response to AE and the Golden Period:

            Thank you so much, AE x

            What a brilliant idea! (imagine the Queen in Black Adder and how she would say that :P)

            I’m going to do as you suggest and write some thoughts down about the illusory golden period to literally crush up and stamp into the ground. I might even set it alight 😉 I’m excited at the idea of being able to do something ‘physical’ as a way of purging that period permanently. I might even use that as a litte mantra “purge that period permanently”.

            You have been most encouraging once again. Bless you <3

          32. Asp Emp says:

            Way to go girl! You added your own – I was going to suggest burning it as well LOL. Nothing like the physical 😉 LOL. Have fun! x

          33. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            Ha ha! *raises eyebrow, makes voice less tinkly*

            “You rang?”

            LET, I was going to respond last night to your post about whether or not to listen to the golden period video just yet. I wanted to double check first though. I listened to it again last night from the perspective of ‘Would this cause me to remember the ‘good’ bits in any way?’ The answer is no, it doesn’t. It’s very factual, not cold in delivery, and it stresses the manipulative element of the golden period rather than glamourising or over detailing the illusion.

            Personally, I think it will only support you in putting a line through your golden period and seeing it as wholly negative, similar to the way you are concentrating on devaluation. The certainty is there again in the way it’s explained. That tone that removes all doubt. It’s a powerful piece and I think it can only help you with what you and many of us are still working on.

            I then listened to Why The Narcissist Must Reject Intimacy. Similar thing here, listening to them back to back has double impact, they work well as a pair.

            You know your own mindset LET and where you are up to, just thought I’d give you a bit more info to help you decide. Xx

          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            NA, thank you for a further clarification on the Golden Period video. With an element of heightened ET right now, I have a fear of approaching it in case it triggers a further rise in that. By the sounds of things it is more explanatory re: manipulations, etc., and I’m sure I’ve undergone a few of them. It’s probably good to have a refresher on some aspects of that so the illusory aspects continue to be made clear. I know reading about how opposites do not attract (as per HGs article yesterday) was a real eye opener for me and had not even thought of that in terms of narcissists mirroring with similarities rather than differences. I actually find differences can be quite a turn on 😛 They’re more of a challenge. At the same time … the fact is I still ended up on the end of the narcissist’s fishing line.

            And I will always be happy to hear from you keeping in mind the well honed path you have worn here and for many years before me. You are a true trooper and your staying power here just goes to show that. I’m sure you’ve helped many people along the way, and you have also helped me. I’m not going to scroll past your comments. And the little nudge from you will ensure I get more of what I need to beat the narcissist again today. Thank you.

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, TS, for that further confirmation on the video re: the Golden Period. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts, especially around the idea of “over detailing the illusion”. Some of HGs pieces are wonderful at recreating scenarios which we have undergone (or endured) which helps to highlight the ‘con’, and they can be quite affecting. I feel reassured now that is not the case and think I can go take a look. And I appreciate you answering NAs call for backup, too 🙂 x

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Any time 😊I can get transported back too with some articles as you know! I’m sure the video will have a positive effect. Xx

        2. Julie Petkovska says:

          LET,

          I have found your responses weighing up perspectives correct. With the right level of reasoning, deduction and empathy. Its all about balance.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, Julie, I appreciate your response and I think we are all trying to get the balance right which sometimes requires taking on a different perspective. I have thanked HG for allowing an airing of different points of view as I think that is the ultimate decider in how perceptions can differ and also how they can become further aligned. I’m most appreciative of free expression and the need for everyone to have that opportunity. It’s fortunate we have that here <3

            Thank you again x

      2. Lily says:

        NarcAngel: You are speaking with a logical/rational perspective whilst some of us allow our hearts to dictate our brains. From a perspective led by the heart, it’s very easy to think that the fault for this individual’s behaviour lies elsewhere- whether in a psychological condition, upbringing, or even to blame oneself (as Bibi shared elsewhere in the comments). Also, I do not know about the background of the author, but all of this would be normal for her if she was raised in such an environment.

        Along with raising self-respect, I will also add another component: building and having a strong identity.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Lily
          Yes, I am offering a logical perspective. I am not offended by being called out on that and am unapologetic for offering it because some logic is what is needed to temper the misleading nonsense in that writing.

          I understand it’s easy to think the fault for the narcissist’s behaviour lies elsewhere, because that is what emotional thinking does – it feeds the addiction that allows people to continue on in the abuse looking for the man on the horse. People still in the grip read things like this and go straight to the part where he is a good man stalked/trapped by a monster and delivers them straight to emotional thinking. It gives them false hope that if they just keep mining they can get back to that man that never really existed. He is the monster pretending to be that man. Until the focus changes to that, you will remain trapped and abused.

          1. Lily says:

            Your arguments are true- especially “He is the monster pretending to be that man.” But for those unaware of such psychological conditions would be either self-flagellating & believing they could be the healer/saviour.

          2. JB says:

            NA, ‘He is the monster pretending to be that man’ – just going to keep saying this to myself. Had a wobble yesterday and nearly broke NC. Just had a sudden realisation that deep down I don’t believe this, that I feel sorry for him and it’s impacting on how I think and feel.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB, AV

            I know what you mean there. I have felt sorry for the narc for the longest time. I see him as lonely, and one thing I can’t stand is people being left alone.
            I’m just starting to realise that that is MY projection onto him though. I see HIM as lonely. The truth is, he isn’t lonely. He gets his fuel from wherever he needs it. One thing he isn’t, is lonely.

            The other thing I’ve wrestled with, is that he’s Mid Range so, he didn’t know what he was doing. He was reacting and not planning. In this sense the Greater seems easier to deal with, once you know what he is of course. The fact of it though, is that whilst his behaviours might have been instinctive and unplanned, he DID know what he was doing. He knew because he saw my response. He knew I was fighting my best fight and he drank it all in. He knew I was scared for him, he saw my confusion and he saw the upset. He saw. He knew. He kept going. He drew it out and I delivered more and more fuel as he sat and waited in silence, reading it all, hearing it all, drinking it all in.

            I felt sorry for him. I absolved him from blame and took that blame on as my responsibility. I wish I had the chance to deliver the line, “It’s not me. It’s you.” But even then he wouldn’t care, he’d just inhale the fumes from that single drop of fuel.

            Over time you will feel less sorry for your narc. They don’t come much more protective than me, so, I promise, you will feel better. Stick to your No Contact and give yourself time. The knowledge comes first, your brain accepts the truth of it all. Your heart resists, she takes a little longer, but bit by bit she starts to accept the truth of it too. Some days she rallies and rails against the truth as your ET leaps for joy, other days she accepts, with the air of a wise man puffing on his pipe. Ha ha.

            Your narc is doing just fine. Guaranteed. No need to feel sorry for him. No need to worry for him. Concentrate on you instead. X

          4. A Victor says:

            Truthseeker, thank you for your comment!! Do much wisdom and understanding in it, so encouraging! As I read the first paragraph, it dawned on me how correct that is, for my mother and well as the narc probably. But certainly for her, I’ve seen it, she has chosen what and who she has, she is happy with her choices.

            The second paragraph made me queasy at the realization of the truth there, they do watch and drink it all in, ugh.

            My brain struggles to get around the whole thing, I can only rest on the experience of you who’ve gone before that it will, in time, happen.

            And your reassurance that he’s doing fine and instruction to focus on ourselves is very wonderful, thank you!

            JB, I think we will make it! 🙂

          5. JB says:

            TS, thank you x

            You’re right, it is our projection. On reflection the narcissists in my life don’t feel lonely, and have admitted as such too. And as they don’t really know there is anything wrong with them in the first place, feeling sorry for them is somewhat wasted anyway!

            AV, I think we will! We’re certainly all determined enough people; we don’t give up, and that is half the battle! x

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            A Victor,

            Good. I’m glad it helped.

            You will make it, because you are now in the right place. Xx

          7. A Victor says:

            JB, your comment just helped me put a couple of the puzzle pieces together. We don’t give up but I must shift the focus to not giving up off of the narcissist and onto me. Easier said than done but, as you said, we’re determined, half the battle is already won! Thanks!!

          8. JB says:

            AV, you’re welcome. Glad I was able to help x

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB,

            I’m glad my thoughts on it helped. We are far more resilient than we realise. We do project a lot (well I know I do) and it has taken me a long time to understand what was me and what actually was him.

            I’m not there fully yet, I still question from time to time, still some bonds that refuse to break but I’m definitely getting there and it’s definitely getting easier.

            We are a determined group, for ourselves and for each other. Read, listen, re read and listen to the material again. It works 😉

          10. JB says:

            TS, we are indeed.

            Oh yes, I don’t doubt it works, am on it with reading and listening. Since coming here last year I have now read everything on here, and I love re-reading the articles when they are re-posted, as every time I read them I feel like I get something new from them. I have been listening to the video on secondary sources today, it’s truly fascinating. Unfortunately I only got halfway as I was interrupted, but will listen to the rest tomorrow..

      3. A Victor says:

        Thank you for this Narc Angel. The black and white of it that you present here is necessary for me, especially right now.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          You’re welcome AV. You understand the intention.

      4. Witch says:

        Different approaches work differently for different people.
        I’ll give you an example, I asked my (I think) UL partner at the time for an open relationship (hahaha)
        Obviously this triggered his rage and he started throwing objects around the room, he threw my phone against the wall and also threatened to break my laptop. I thought he was going to hit me, so I was flinching when he came near me and he kept saying “I’m not going to hit you.”
        I told a friend about this but because she was just as lost as I was (she is highly codependent) she didn’t call it out.
        If I had someone who could give me a metaphorical slap at the time rather than the “uummms and the aahhhss and the awwww” it may have helped to lead me to the start of sense.

      5. BC30 says:

        This is the convo to which I should have brought my popcorn.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Careful, you sound like Pamela! 😜

          She must get through a metric shit ton of the stuff.

  3. Eternity says:

    As victims HG, why do we feel sometimes that we asked for it and deserved this treatment? Is it because we think that we are not good enough and dont deserve better. Maybe it is our ET taking over.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is your emotional thinking corrupting your empathic traits, to make you believe that you did something to deserve it.

      1. Bibi says:

        With the Mid Ranger, even though I knew he had ‘problems’ (pre Narcissist understanding), I believed that I made him angry and that I brought out his bad side. Everything I did pissed him off so that must be the reason. I once wrote in an email, ‘We just can’t seem to get along and maybe I just don’t have what it takes.’

        Pretty amazing when you consider this was a non-romantic relationship and yet still it could not work.

      2. Bibi says:

        Another thing that comes to mind is that (at least speaking from my experience), I wanted it to be my fault. If it is my fault then I can make amends and fix it. Amid high ET, we want it to be our fault, if possible. Hence our willingness to take the blame because in some strange way we believe we have control.

        ‘Oh if only I didn’t nag him about this or that, then everything will work out.’

        The problem arises when the ongoing sins made by the narc grow too egregious for forgiveness. Hiding his identity, or cheating or even that narc ex boyfriend I had who stood me up and left me waiting outside for him for hours (the 1990s so no text or cell phone) despite him saying he would be there. Then, informing me that he lost track of time b/c he was ‘getting laid.’ How can one forgive that? You can’t, unless you have zero self-respect.

        And when the ET is really high, the self-respect is really low. Self respect comes from the mind. It comes from mastering something practical and pulling yourself out from the Romantic Dream. It’s hard. It’s very hard to do this b/c the ET doesn’t want it. It’s like trying to push yourself down in salt water. It just pushes you back up. Vivid memories upon snorkeling in Key West as a kid.

        1. A Victor says:

          Bibi, exactly, the ET just wants him.

      3. Eternity says:

        Thank you HG , you are absolutely right! We need to realise that it is not our fault that we think this way . We just need to try and control it better.

      4. BC30 says:

        I despise the idea that there is something wrong with empaths that needs to be fixed, such as childhood trauma or whatever else, that is spewed about the internet and even among professional mental health professionals. Our “failings” mean we deserved the treatment, particularly with regard to IPSSs. GTFOH

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I agree. I always tell those who consult with me there is nothing you need to fix and nothing you should change inherent to who you are, you cannot and why should you? It is about understanding narcissism, knowing what to look for and getting down and keeping down ET.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Empowering comment. So true – why should we, empaths change ourselves – as long as we understand what we are dealing with and have faith in our ‘inner’ strengths to keep the ET down and maintain high LT. In my case, it was important for me to understand myself (which I do now). It’s liberating.

          2. JB says:

            So, am I right in thinking then that being an empath is, in some ways, similar to being a narcissist in that, as in the case with narcissism, it is hard wired from a certain point of brain development, and so no matter how much understanding you come to regarding why you behave in the way you do, in effect the empath can’t change their default behaviours, much as the narcissist can’t change theirs?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            The empath cannot stop being an empath, cannot remove the addiction to the narcissist , but they can lower ET, learn the behaviours of narcissists and evade the narcissists when they advance on the empath.

          4. Witch says:

            In my view learning to control our ET is changing how we think about things and behave, therefore we do need to change an aspect ourselves.
            Those of us who have jumped from one abusive relationship to the next; that is a problem and something we do need work on while being given the right tools to do so.
            That is of course different from saying we deserve to be abused.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Changing behaviour, not who you are.

          6. Witch says:

            I understand

          7. A Victor says:

            The differentiation of behaviors to who we are is an eye opener.

            Does the narcissist have the inability to alter behaviors in the same way? Or would they need to change who they are, and this is impossible for them? This goes back to a question I asked, very poorly, on a different thread. I understand it is a combination of a genetic predisposition and particular treatment at a certain stage of development but it’s the genetic part actually something missing out malformed? Perhaps no one knows. I have been trying to understand why it is so absolutely believed that they cannot change. Is there a good p place to learn more about this?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            The narcissist cannot change because the narcissism is fused into the narcissist during the formation of character, personality etc. Furthermore, the narcissism will prevent any attempt at change as part of its role as a self defence mechanism.

  4. A Victor says:

    The narcissist I was involved with told me if a number of situations where his ex-wife would see him looking at other women lustfully and how she would just smile. At first I thought, wow, she’s an excessively confident woman, much more do than I as I would not respond in such a manner. Then it became apparent that she didn’t have a choice, he was going to look whether she was okay with it or not. That was a different story, and I started waking up.

  5. Asp Emp says:

    “When those savage words and insults were shouted at you? That is emotional violence. That is abusive”- Lesser, yes. MRN, no.

    “Perhaps they are considerations but when pitted against your own safety and sanity, which should be protected first?” – any mother / parent would put children first as it’s instinctive. In my experience with Lesser = safety first, sanity second. With MRN, sanity first and safety second (safety was never an issue with MRN). Hence the reason why I locked my car doors the other day when that Lesser. Ah, bloody hell, the b**tard affected me for a couple days – but woke up today feeling ok. I’m over that “encounter”.

    “could it be said that you were a victim or did you in fact volunteer by remaining in the firing line?” – victim, yes. Emotionally by both narcissists – but very differently a) blackmail by Lesser and b) pity-playing by MRN. Volunteer? Possibly and indirectly (because unaware of narcissism / empaths), because of my empathic nature and the type of empath I am. Alas.

    Now, can I slam that door, HG? Oh, wait, I already did 🙂

    1. A Victor says:

      Glad you’re doing better today Asp Emp!

  6. JB says:

    I get the point, but ‘volunteer’ seems somewhat harsh! Those practical considerations make a big difference to whether one stays or goes. My cut off point would definitely be physical violence, but even that is easier said than done if you have nowhere to go and are completely financially dependent on the narcissist. I got as far as the ‘savage words dressing down’ stage, although had he not discarded me at that point, I probably still would have tried to make things right. So he did me a favour by discarding me! (although the way he spoke subsequently gave the impression he thought I had discarded him, which was a bit weird!)

  7. Truthseeker6157 says:

    These are such hard hitting articles. When I read part two I instinctively select flirting with other women as my cut off point. The point where I would go. I have never once had this happen to me in any relationship, including those that didn’t make it to the intimate stage. That behaviour would nauseate me. I think it would be enough to shake me awake because it’s an intentional act and one that even I would be able to find an excuse for. You can’t say ‘oh it’s the stress of the job’ ‘a deal fell through’ or ‘he’s not himself, something is wrong.’ It’s so very intentional and it isn’t reactionary.

    I can only estimate my reaction, I can’t be sure. Sometimes we react very differently to how we think we would. In a previous long term relationship, my ex ( non narcissist) entirely lost it one afternoon. Similar to the scenario described in the article. It had been a stressful few months. A house that should have sold that had fallen through, various things, one after the other. My ex had taken the dog out and had let the dog off the lead and it had refused to come back. So he walked home expecting the dog to follow, which it did 20 mins later. But in the meantime it had run into someone’s garden and had a barking match with another dog. The home owner followed our dog to our house, banged on the door and started shouting the odds. My ex walked outside barefoot and the argument escalated immediately. The man sensibly began to walk away but my ex was enraged. He came in flung his shoes on and went to get a baseball bat with the intention of following the guy and sorting him out.

    It was crazy behaviour and a hugely excessive response.
    I stood in front of the door trying to reason with my ex. ‘Stop. Think. This is crazy behaviour. Calm down. What are you thinking? You want to wind up with a record over a guy like that moaning about the dog?! ‘ He pulled me away from the door, we scuffled. I placed myself back in front of the door where he ordered me to move. I refused, saying ‘No. I’m trying to stop you doing something you’ll regret later.’ ‘ He grabbed my arm and pulled me away from the door with such force that I half slid half flew into a second door frame and hit my shoulder blade and the back of my head door frame to door to floor.

    That didn’t make him stop. He left after the man, who had by this time disappeared, my ex had no idea where he lived and he was nowhere to be seen. I picked myself up and sorted myself out. The following day his hand print on my arm turned a dark purple but to the casual observer there wasn’t a mark to be seen. He never apologised. We never discussed it. We continued as if it never happened. It had been a stressful few months.

    We don’t always react how we think we will. There are always excuses that we can make for an event happening. It is never clear cut. I don’t believe I volunteered for that despite placing myself in the way of my ex. I did have the ability to make reasoned decisions and I still stand by that one today.

    To be in a similar situation but with a narcissist, over a long period of time with mental abuse taking place in conjunction with sexual or physical abuse and with soaring ET? Victim, never volunteer. Not in that sense at least. The decisions need to be made earlier with the narcissist. The gut instinct that tells you something isn’t right. Very hard to leave after that I think. Red flags really need to be heeded.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      A number of small ‘annoyances’ and stress, more often than not, could and would be ‘triggered’ and lead to what I read in your comment – to an ‘explosion’ of rage. When that ‘rage’ gets to that point, it has to be released and there is no ‘reasoning’ with the “volcano” and the brain is beyond ‘rationale’ – that is exactly how my ‘plutonic supanovas’ happen – no physical violence, just verbal. It is usually one ‘mountain’ as per narcissist. I suppose my eruption it was worse with the MRN, possibly because the emotional bond was massively deeper.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      TS

      Everyone likes to think they know their limit or cut off point, but as you point out – it is only an estimation or (usually) wishful thinking. If you had told any of us here pre-narc that we would end up on a site dealing with the effects of narcissistic abuse we likely would have laughed. No, not us. Abuse happens to other people and we see it and would leave at the first signs. Except we don’t.

      Personal question: (and I understand if you don’t want to answer but perhaps ponder it yourself).

      Wouldn’t you have thought previous to that physical incident with your ex that you would not have tolerated it and left straight away? But you didn’t. Instead you reasoned that it had been a stressful few months that had caused it. This is not pointed out to make you feel bad or defensive but rather to show you how it can happen. You obviously did cut it off at some point but I would venture that point was further on than you would have predicted.

      Yes red flags need to be heeded but we often see yellow and orange and run the light “just this once”.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        NA,

        Exactly right. Previous to the incident I recounted I would definitely have said I would not have stood for it and would have left straight away. That’s exactly it, you don’t know until you are in the situation. The behaviour appears out of character so, you look for ‘logical’ reasons for that behaviour first. There is an inclination to ‘run the light just this once’ as you say.

        With the narcissist, whilst you might attribute a reason for the behaviour, the reasoning is driven by ET and there just isn’t a reason for it anyway other than the fact he is a narcissist!

        I don’t believe my ex is a narcissist. He is a narcissistic normal. It does illustrate though how the reality of how we react to an abusive situation is often far removed from the way we anticipate we will react.

    3. BC30 says:

      Wow. We have come so far!

      “LET, NA, let me show you something. A blast from the past.

      https://narcsite.com/2020/06/25/utopia-6/

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Hey BC30, thank you so much for that link and I think you and TS are on the same page as she prompted me with that one, too! We have come a long way, well I certainly have in just a few months, and couldn’t have done it without the opportunity to interact with you all here. I can see that with others, too. It’s a thanks to HG again, but I also have to thank everyone else for their kind thoughts and NA and I are getting a room if anyone who cares to join us 😛

        Thanks, BC30 x

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Thanks for the invite. Yes please LOLOL.

        2. BC30 says:

          “Let’s get ready to ruuuuuuummmmmble!!!”

          Hahaha

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        BC30,

        We have haven’t we, and in only a few months. Xx

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