Only A Super Empath Can Break A Narcissist

470 thoughts on “Only A Super Empath Can Break A Narcissist

  1. Jasmin says:

    From siting target:
    “The co-dependent – this is a super empath who chains themselves to us because they are dependent on us for their existence…”
    Does this mean that the co-dependent is actually a super empath?🤔

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Jasmin,
      In the course of doing a bit of study on Empaths today I came across your comment here. This is a very good question, one I have also had. I would ‘guess’ that it means that the CoD is excessively empathic as opposed to being a “Super Empath”. Supers are also excessively Empathic, from what I have come to understand, but they have the higher and much stronger Narcissistic traits to go along with their very high Empathic traits. The CoD would not have the quantity or strength of Narcissistic traits, but I think their Empathic traits could be equally as strong as the Super’s making them a “super empath(ic)”. I hope if I am incorrect, someone will let both of us know. 🤔

      1. Jasmin says:

        Hi AV!
        That was my understanding of the difference between the schools as well. The quoted part from sitting target got me a bit confused. Your explanation make sense!
        Thank you!

    2. Forme Fruste says:

      School of Empath can be standard, contagion, co-d or Super
      Cadre of Empath can be saviour, magnet, geyser, carrier, or martyr

      HG offers a comprehensive questionnaire analysis which he uses to characterize the degrees of the schools and the cadres in your personal metric. Some people are heavily a ‘type’ such as strongest in the co-dependent and Martyr metrics with influences from the others, while others have a balance of sorts.

      Hope this helps.

      If we are entangled in the puppeteer’s threads of a narcissist then we are chained…

      The Co-D was on their way to becoming a narcissist and got stunted in childhood and never made it to become a full narcissist… they then grew their empath by coordinated machinations with a full on narcissist controlling them… they go into adulthood dependent on being with a full narcissist to exist.

      The Super developed both a narcissist and an empath. Their personal narcissist is kept in check by high control by their empath. The super is not dependent on the narcissist in the same way as the Co-D. More like the moth to the flame…

    3. Danielle says:

      Not true! I’m not co-dependent. I had a TBI and had young children to care for so I did what I had to do. 40 years later and no possible way to take care of myself I’m stuck with a monster with no way out. He’s lied to my children and grandchildren about me. I won’t defend myself. It only makes me look worse. The emotional pain he implements is still just as horrible. I’m alone and I did what I had to for the sake of my children. When you have little ones your thoughts are only for them. I’m 67 now and living with a monster and I’m alone. He’s in heaven thinking he’s destroyed me. I have no money and no where to go. Your hypothesis is incorrect. There’s many out there like me.

  2. Kiki says:

    Wow just listened to a song called MISTAKE by MOBY .
    It describes what a Narc relationship felt like for me anyway.Warning it’s a dark song and may be triggering.


    1. SARAH says:

      Oh, lordy! I just watch the animated version of it. Yep, I think it in encapsulates the narc relationship very well.

      1. Kiki says:

        It doesn’t it .

        HG have you ever listened to this song it is the exact feeling me as an Empath feels .Mistske MOBY
        PS It’s not a cheesy Celina Dion like song 😊

        1. SARAH says:

          Hahaha, no NOT CelineDion. Sounds a lot like David Bowie to me.

    2. tqueen67 says:

      Try next girl by Carly Pierce!

    3. Forme Fruste says:

      My Narc Sociopath sang RadioHead’s creep to me (getting in my face in front of the children):


      When you were here before
      Couldn’t look you in the eye
      You’re just like an angel
      Your skin makes me cry
      You float like a feather
      In a beautiful world
      I wish I was special
      You’re so fucking special

      But I’m a creep
      I’m a weirdo
      What the hell am I doing here?
      I don’t belong here

      I don’t care if it hurts
      I want to have control
      I want a perfect body
      I want a perfect soul
      I want you to notice
      When I’m not around
      You’re so fucking special
      I wish I was special

      But I’m a creep
      I’m a weirdo
      What the hell am I doing here?
      I don’t belong here

      Oh, oh

      She’s running out again
      She’s running out
      She run run run run

      At the “run run run run” part he was laughing hysterically — I just looked at him like the cat that is facing the dog at the end of his chain — wondering if that chain will break, calculating how I could creep away…

      That was the last time he got within 20 feet of me… never ever again.

  3. Kiki says:

    Hi all

    Something has clicked for me know in relation to real NContact .
    I am not a stupid woman but I struggled with this concept for a long time .
    For anyone new here this experience may reasonate.

    There are many sites online that use No contact in a way that makes the Empath think they will be missed by the Narc .If you do my know you’re incredible involved with a Narc this is really to your detriment.
    I’ve learned you cannot do this , or play them at their own game .Why they simply don’t care .
    I’ve experienced being put on the shelf for Two years , then the hoover .
    Doing no contact to make the Narc miss you will eventually break you and shatter your self esteem.
    It’s a hard lesson that you will learn .
    For the first time ever I’ve locked down everything, for me this is a huge step , I think it has finally given me back some control where I had none .


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Logic. Well done.

      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you HG this is a milestone step , my ET crops up panicking a bit but my Logic is seeing through it .


      2. Micky says:

        Hi HG. Is it possible for you to do a video on why an Empath cannot heal a Narcissist?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See “Can the Narcissist Be Cured?”

    2. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Nice one Kiki! Bloody well done! It truly is empowering xxxp

      1. Kiki says:

        Hi all sorry if I’m hogging this stream with too many messages .Despite an Empath detector I’m still worried I’m a possible narcissist.
        I was chatting to my brother and brought up the subject , he informed me no I’m not that empathic .
        As a teenager I was in my early twenties I was but I’ve withdrawn due to narcissist abuse I’ve recognised now .
        My empathy has diluted, not that I don’t care it’s just I’ve pushed it back , way back .
        Yet I know I am still addicted to the Narc who brought me here .
        Before that a husband who was definitely a lesser Narc .
        It’s like I see it now I’ve pulled way way back and become cold not horrible and unempathic but not empathic either , is that normal please any advice on this would be appreciated.


        1. Kiki says:

          I think I need to too listen why do I see narcissist everywhere.
          This has changed me .I was once so open and loving due to the narcs in my life I’ve changed.
          Ive closed people out , it’s a self protection mechanism I think .I’ve become cynical which may not be a bad thing for me.
          I was a bit of a babe in the woods due to sheer innocence.
          I’m in constant fear of being trapped again as I know it’s all too real .


          1. A Victor says:


            I understand that fear! Getting ensnared again is terrifying! Thanks for sharing that, it sometimes helps me knowing others feel the same way.

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Kiki, it’s a perfectly normal reaction. I remember when I first started seeing narcs everywhere this was pre HG and at that point in time the only information indicated the number of narcs in society was around 1 in 100. It made no sense in my head and left me feeling like I was imagining it all. It was such a relief when I found HG and he confirmed anecdotally 1 in 6 people are Ns.

            They truly are everywhere!

            I culled almost all of my friends early on post narc, I trusted no one /!: didn’t know who was narc ans who was not because all of a sudden I was seeing things which I didn’t even know was reality.

            I once was relatively popular with lots of friends and acquaintances, went NC or limited contact with so very many people.

            Over time I have grown confidence in my judgements of what people are or are not. Gradually I’ve increased my friend base abs have those very good long term friends who are definitely not Narcs whom I keep close, but it’s a handful. I’ve learned to be friendly with many narcs but keep them at distance and recognise their uses. But there are many Ns (largely female) who are present which I cannot being myself to interact with at all and limit contact as much as I possibly can. My life has changed I have far less friends but nor do I want them. It feels a very healthy place to be indeed.

            In the beginning I missed who I once was, but now I’m very happy with who I have become. I no longer miss who I was or what I had. My life is very different now, but in a positive healthy way.

            I’m sure you will find that same sense of peace at some stage. And if the ED says you’re not a narc, you’re not. We can all lack empathy in different ways and at certain points and with a variety of people but that does not make us an N.

            I spent a few years contemplating I was a narc. I’m now very certain of who and what I am.

            Huge hugs lovely xx

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          You aren’t hogging the stream. If you want to call hogger, look no further! I’m right here! 😎

          I think you’re hurt Kiki. I think you are drawing in your emotions and raising the walls to protect yourself and rightly so. You can’t support others and transmit empathy at the same rate when you have taken damage. I can’t anyway.

          What you describe sounds entirely normal to me. Don’t worry about this influencing the EDC either. HG is an extremely intelligent man. The EDC is calibrated to allow for us being wounded when we take it. It will be correct in the outcome so don’t worry.

          As your ET falls and you get the opportunity to be yourself again, without being under the influence of the narcissist ( and this applies to him being in your head too) all your empathic traits will fire right back up. Xx

        3. SARAH says:

          I feel the same way!! I’m eager to see shat folks say.

        4. A Victor says:

          Hi Kiki, you’re not hogging the stream, you’re adding to the discussion. I feel like that all the time but people talk, questions are answered, information is passed along, it’s all good, as long as HG is okay with it.

          Recently it was brought home to me that if we wonder if we’re a narcissist, we are not one. A narcissist would never wonder this. It has been a process for me to come to understand that elements of my humanity coming out, ones that that I might be less than happy about or proud of, these don’t make me a narcissist, they make me human. And likely they’re showing because of a stressor, one of which is living with a narcissist. As a young woman I went through a phase of being pretty horrible and cold hearted, I thought something was wrong with me. But, it still bothers me, the choices I made, the people I hurt. It would not if I were a narcissist. I am coming more to understand that it was a period of extreme stress, coming out of a traumatizing time and my ET was off the charts causing action without thought. Running, trying to hide from the trauma and not knowing who I was at all.

          People here recommended I consult with HG, I did not understand at first but, when I had enough questions to fill an hour, I did it anyway. It has been highly beneficial to my understanding of all of this. I recommend it if you have never done so.

          Thank you for sharing, I enjoy your input.

          Please excuse any typos, I believe autocorrect changed things after I hit send sometimes.

          1. BC30 says:

            AV — two thoughts I had reading this chain.

            First, a SE won’t always have outburst, it’s dimming. For example in my case, N started referring to me as “gorgeous” out of the blue (I now know whomever he was grooming probably didn’t work out). Anyhow, I was unhappy with Ns treatment, so I started ignoring him on and off and doing things behind his back.

            Second, I’ve had a number of consults with HG. I have gone back and seen the logic bloom over time. Are you considering doing another?

          2. A Victor says:

            BC30, it is interesting that you bring up the lack of outburst. After reading your and Leela’s descriptions, I realized neither of those fit for me. I did ignore also, and did things behind his back, I don’t count those as supernovas really. I once brought home 7 chihuahua’s and hid the from him for several days, hahaha! That was a funny one!

            But, I believe for me the supernova, if it was one, was more of a pulling away, watching, waiting to see what would happen, with greatly reduced fuel coming from me. It was instinctive, I of course knew nothing of that need, he just wasn’t getting any reaction or interaction anymore. With my ex, at the end, it was a year or so. With the summer narc, a weekend. I told my ex he should go, he knew I would take steps if he didn’t, legal steps. The summer narc, I just ended it. It left me shaken but better off and I knew it. That’s not to say if I hadn’t found narcsite, I wouldn’t have gone back, it was hard. But my awareness was there at least. So maybe my supernova is my heart icing over and getting the authorities involved if need be. Or, maybe that’s just common sense prevailing. With the SN, I could feel the drama and I actually thought, we are adults, that drama is not normal and I don’t want it. It helped.

            I do have another consult scheduled and plan to keep having them until I feel I am somewhat on top of this in my mind, if it is one more or many. But I can’t do them too close together, it is a process of absorbing from one to the next and all the other info as well, there’s just so much to learn. But, just from the one, I know it is well worth it.

          3. BC30 says:

            7 chihuahuas! That’s hilarious. Another thought I just had is the relationship certainly has a lot to do with our reactions. In my case, they were both romantic long-term affairs. Anyhow, I’ve done my mom’s EDC. We await results! I’m thinking about a consult, but don’t really “need” one at the moment, but I am sure I will, so I’ll wait until then.

          4. A Victor says:

            That is exciting! Your mom’s EDC! Did she fill it out or tell you the responses? I was going to do one for my dad, before I decided to start with an NDC for him, but I wouldn’t have known how to answer, which is partly why I started with the NDC. Also because I was seeing more evidence leaning that way.

          5. BC30 says:

            I had to help her. A few of the answers—I was scandalized! 🙊¡Escándalo!

          6. A Victor says:

            Hahaha!! Funny!

            I wonder if knowing her Empath type with tell you more about yourself too.

            It is sweet that you have a good relationship with her.

          7. BC30 says:

            I’m so excited. I suspect Carrier. I was just talking to her by phone this morning. I was making bacon 🥓 and went to grab a beer from the cooler to make a marinade and somehow poked the can open, and it sprayed me and everything in the kitchen. It’s an family inside joke that we cannot be in the kitchen together. Not even over the phone! Somehow all chaos and mishaps. We’re cursed! 😁😂

          8. A Victor says:

            Well, now HG put out the video “What Happens When the Narcissist Realises You Have Them Figured out?”, which describes what I just wrote to you yesterday and I don’t think it’s a supernova. So, I have probably never had one. Early on our voices would go up, even to some good yelling level on occasion, but after I saw how this affected our daughter, I didn’t fight with him until the end, when it got really crazy and I would do it only to protect the kids.

          9. BC30 says:

            AV I went back and read the SE article, and it’s how I escaped both Ns. “There comes a time however when the sustained abuse and the awareness of the Super Empath reaches a critical point. Rather than switch off or slide into decline, the Super Empath will decide that enough is enough. In some instances, this means that the Super Empath will escape and follow a similar route to that of the Empath and distance themselves from the narcissist.”

            Things had changed with #2 somehow. Couldn’t put my finger on it. I didn’t like the response to my “ultimatum” so I blocked phone/all apps/social media (even fucking Pinterest! 😂)/told my assistant to block calls/building concierge, and gave control of my email accounts to my best friend. Accidental NO CONTACT!

            He made several desperate and laughable hoover attempts after realizing I was really gone this time. My friend told me about them because I didn’t realize that was a breach of NC at the time. Since I’d been replaced and wounded him, he moved on. There was another hoover some months later, must have gotten bored with the new toaster!

            I just texted #1 that it was over. He said, it was ok because he knew I’d be his “close friend” in the years to come. (WTF?) He had quite the harem, so there were no immediate hoovers. I blocked him, but he did email me some years later, but nothing came of it.

          10. A Victor says:

            BC30, thank you, “switched off” is what happened to me. It happened in both of my marriages. And with both, not knowing about NC, I did allow a period of time for them to truly change but I knew it was done on my part if they didn’t show signs of true change. They didn’t. The last year with my 2nd, we lived together but he got zero from me except that I covered the bills and with abuse of that, even that was ended toward him early on, so the bills were things I would have covered for me and the kids anyway. He’d already managed to drain most of my money and of course, all of his was long gone. But, this was the first time in 22 years that I didn’t touch him, I didn’t smile at him, I didn’t talk to him or give anything at all, he had to sleep on the daybed. He knew it was a major shift. He knew what I was waiting for and he knew, as I did, that it wasn’t going to happen. So, I finally told him if he was going to continue, he should go and not do it around us, it being drugs. This confused the issue for me when I came here, I thought, well he’s an addict, not a narcissist. But, the NDC showed other things and he is both. Anyway, he had also been told earlier that month that the money was gone and I would no longer be paying his part of anything, that residual benefit had completely dried up. So he left. It was a relief, for all of us. My poor kids had to live through all that. And then the departure. Throughout, I met their needs and was “normal” with them, it was only with him where there was change. Of course they saw it, they never asked what was going on, but they knew something was very different. I only wish it would’ve happened years earlier. He got a lot of extra leeway because a year after our youngest was born, he was diagnosed with MS so I attributed a lot of the problems to that. Had that not happened, we’d probably still be married, we had a system, he did what he wanted and I said nothing. Haha, some system. But, he was good to me and for the children I would’ve kept going that way. Sad, I know, but it was what I had. And I actually thought it was not unlike other people’s marriages. Thank you for sharing, you were wise with the accidental NC.

          11. Kiki says:

            Thank you
            AV , Truthseeker and Sarah I appreciate your input .
            This helps as people in my real life would not have a clue .
            I got my EDT , I am mostly standard with a good bit of Contagion and a little Super Empath .


          12. A Victor says:

            Kiki, that is so exciting! What are your cadres?

        5. Melmel says:

          Hi Kiki I have not written here but your comment resonates with me. I have known my whole life that I am an empath, and more recently I have realized that this quality has made me a target for narcissists which has led to crippling mental health issues. Now that I am able to identify the source of the trauma it is leading to healing on a scale I never thought possible.
          One thing that always confused me was how if I am an empath, does this not translate to better functioning? Why do people find me cold and unapproachable until I open up? Why do I use manipulation techniques to try to control the emotional input I receive from others? I thought this was a result of years of trauma and abuse that caused me to build up walls to keep myself safe. This is partly true, but hasn’t been effective so I thought there might be something more. I too worried that I was a narc or something else. Then I came across the term Dark Empath. It’s a new classification, and can mean different things, but basically these people score higher than typicals on the empath scale, but also score on some Dark traits. Most notably they tend to be higher than typicals in vulnerable narcissism (sensitivity to criticism) and neuroticism. Whether this is ingrained in our personality or a result of our conditioning in toxic relationships, who knows. I tend to think that it might be a little of both (I.e. underlying codependent/dependant/avoidant/obsessive personality added to years of narc abuse). But neuroticism is somewhat protective and can be managed with therapy, grounding, and other empath self care activities.
          So I have hope. Not only for healing, but also that my empath superpowers can be developed and trained to use for good, as long as I temper my tendency toward neuroticism and take care of myself first. Hope that helps.

          1. Kiki says:

            Wow , not to just talk about me , but your post really grabbed me . I am currently recovering from a full emotional breakdown.I was depressed for months then it all just escalated.
            I suffer exactly with being hypersensitive to criticism also .A Narc trait.
            The Narc abuse practically broke me apart.
            Yes I have been described as cold and unapproachable unless I really like someone and it’s a gut feeling.Then I would walk through fire to help.Ex Narc seemed to know this .
            I am also introvert with trust issues even a touch of paranoia as you describe.
            I am working hard on healing it’s hard and my ET is often very very high and it’s difficult to calm.
            Well done on your healing and thank you for your insightful comment.


          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m so sorry you had such a horrible time. You’re such a lovely person and don’t deserve to feel so lost. I am sure your consultation with HG will have helped set you back on the right path. Please don’t lock yourself away. There’s a whole room of empaths here just waiting to support you if and when we are needed, and of course, whenever you feel ready xx

        6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Kiki,
          May I please enquire as to “what is it” from your prospective, that draws you so tightly to this particular narc of yours?
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        7. Siren says:

          I think most of us can resonate with your feeling it might be you, I too lost quite a bit of what I thought was empathy, only to realize being a sucker isn’t empathy… What I’d lost was the desire to fix people who couldn’t be fixed. not letting yourself be used isn’t empathy loss. The games of blame shift and projection work all too well and we are left feeling selfish and narcissistic for not continuing to destroy ourselves for them, but unlike them we tear ourselves appart over it. And boy howdy the increase in emotional thinking doesn’t help at all. If you were a narc you wouldn’t care if you hurt someone, you would get a rush from bringing an innocent to tears, you wouldn’t be here trying to understand as they don’t care to understand where you are coming from… Remember Introspection isn’t a narc thing. Even if you get a rush thinking about terrible things you could do to the narc it doesn’t mean you are one, else most of us would be in trouble especially in the beginning ☺️ the more I read the more I realize I’m not a narc, but worries still crop up for me too. I’m only a few months post escape though, 100% normal no worries!

    3. Sarah says:

      Yes, yes! They will not miss you, the only thing that they might misses their control. When I went GOSO with my family, I was hoovered several times. I knew it wasn’t about wanting ME back. It was about wanting me as a punching bag. Not a part I was willing to play.

      1. Siren says:

        Sara, your statement of them missing control reminded me of a funny (ok, probably just funny to me) story post escape where my narc made a royal arse out of himself, it was before I found HG. I was trying to help a friend on fb that keept allowing himself to be used and abused to ridiculous levels, I told him “once you realize ‘I love you’ means ‘I love what you do for me’ and ‘don’t go’ means ‘no one else is this stupid’ you can see it for what it is” my ex narc (in hoover mode at the time) freaked out, posted a bunch of stupid stuff then temp shut off his fb, pmed me a ton of rude comments, deleted part of them so I never knew what he really said but it was like a little kid having a tantrum… He told me he was leaving fb forever and was horrified I considered that interpretation to be true. Awkwardly I hadn’t mentioned him to that friend or referenced my situation at all at that point yet he drew that parallel so I guess it hit home 🙂 after finding HG I was laughing so hard because it all made perfect sense, it’s all about them always so despite not being about him it got made about him, and it was true so it really glassed his behind! It’s always those prime aims even if they insist it isn’t.

    4. BC30 says:

      100% true…

    5. Another Cat says:

      Absolutely Kiki
      Especially some of us shy ppl can get fooled by these “Hard to get works on any man” dating youtubers. It felt like a comfy cosy idea to just remain myself “Oh, I should be even more distant?” But it didn’t work at all of course. First of all because the men I met (these last 4 years) have been narcissists.

  4. Truthseeker6157 says:


    Something dawned on me last night. I might be looking too deeply into this but, are certain of your videos targeted at certain schools and cadres of empath? I don’t mean, ‘The Saviour Empath’ for example. I mean, the way they are written, delivered, accompanying image and music.

    If so, am I right in thinking that Contagion would respond most to ‘Can You Feel Me?’
    You understand the schools and cadres, you understand the triggers for those schools and cadres. So it follows that the videos could be targeted to enhance the learning / attention of various types of empath.

    Or am I overthinking?

  5. SARAH says:

    HG: What kind of Narcissist do you think Scarlett O’Hara was? What kind of Empath was Melanie? And what was Rhett?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See Know the Narcissist in the Knowledge Vault.

      1. SARAH says:

        Super, thank you!

  6. BC30 says:

    I bear in mind that a lot of these assessments apply to the IPPS dynamic. I could not have caused a “fuel crisis” in my cases. I was only a SE to the extent that I had high N traits, running around exacting “revenge” , and barely managed to escape.

    1. A Victor says:


      “running around exacting “revenge”…” this made me smile!

  7. Kiki says:

    Just. Question everyone, I’m awaiting an Empath detector but reading about Super Empath and anger here in comments.Anger would not be a narcissist thing would it .Is anger a healthy emotion that is suppressed by our society.Anger usually manifests due to deep hurt is that right ?
    Many people bury painful feelings and become angry instead.
    Is it acting on anger that is the problem or not dealing with it in a constructive manner.
    I am a bit confused.


    1. Leigh says:

      Kiki, anger is an acceptable emotion. Often times it can help. Fury, on the other hand, is not an acceptable emotion and is what the narcissist experiences.

    2. A Victor says:

      Hi Kiki, my understanding is that anger is a narcissist trait. I believe it can be used wisely but in very limited ways. It can be used for self protection, one of the ways, or the protection of others, children for example. I do not believe the emotion itself stems from deep hurt, we virtually all have it at some level, but I believe it shows itself oftentimes following being hurt. The burying can be a form of self protection. The anger, for me at least, I am not an SE, was how my pain, fear etc, often showed prior to coming to allow these other emotions in myself, anger being the “safest”. Anger can be destructive or constructive, I believe, depending on how and why it is expressed. Thoughts of the top of my head, look forward to reading other’s thoughts on this. Back to work for me! Ha ha

    3. leelasfuelstinks says:

      Kiki, I don´t see anger as a negative emotion. It´s not pleasant but it depends on why someone is angry. Anger can be for self-defense. It can mean many things. It can be caused by many things. It depends.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Kiki, read Fury to understand more about anger.

        1. BC30 says:

          With regard to the E’s fury??

          I’m not sure I have Fury in my KV library.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ooh Fury is gooood!

    4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Kiki,
      My personal thoughts are :-
      I believe anger to be an intense emotional feeling having resulted from some form of extreme physical or emotional occurrence
      I think it’s also a normal reaction and yes, a healthy one allowing us to let of steam
      We have all been angry in our lives, however, it’s one that should be recognised within oneself and understand why and what makes you angry with potential to avoid the triggers
      Never act or make decisions whilst in this high emotional state, words or actions can be instinctively reactionary and it usually results with regret from the heat of the moment
      Knowing the signs and how to control them requires a lot of inner strength
      It’s always best to either walk away or count to ten, recollect your thoughts, composure and readdress the issues in a calmer state of mind where most likely, reasonable logic will prevail
      Anger can also be a precursor to health issues, no one in my book is worth such a sacrifice!
      All the best with the results from your detector findings KIKI, I hope it sheds more light on your journey
      You are not a narcissist !
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    5. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Kiki,

      I don’t see anger as a negative emotion. It’s there for a reason. I feel anger, or probably more frustration more often than anger. I might be splitting hairs there though. I just don’t show that I’m feeling it.

      I read Bubbles’ comment and what she says is very similar to what my father told me as a kid. I was very hot tempered as a child. Most kids are I suppose. My dad used the quote,’Lose your temper, lose the argument.’ That stuck with me. When I’m angry I want above all else to win. I know if I get angry I get very very angry and it fires in a lot of directions. I don’t like not being able to think straight. I keep my temper to retain my thinking. Basically, I do it to win.

      Frustration at being taken for granted would be likely to anger me most personally. Actually though,I tend to get more angry about things done to other people rather than things done to me. The feeling is that I can handle it. With others, I don’t always think they can. Likely an underestimation on my part. So something done to someone else triggers me more. That’s when you might see me erupt if I’m going to!

      Exciting about your EDC! You might instantly see yourself in the results, it might take a bit longer to fully accept them. It feels very validating though when you do realise that someone gets you, and in detail. I’ve felt empowered over recent months and the detectors have a lot to do with that. Enjoy the experience Kiki. The detectors are the most special gift you can give to yourself. Xx

      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you all for your insightful replies
        .My ET is slowly creeping down again .
        It’s amazing after one email consult I feel different.The crazy urges to stir things up with the Narc , me really looking for his validation has subsided for now at least .
        I remember 3 years ago I a similar thing happened and I went No contact and was finally regaining my inner happiness due to all the wonderful posters here and HG .
        I did however get complacent and if I’m honest a bit arrogant .It’s like I felt I’m empowered I can handle the Narc and I let him back in , only to be devalued, discarded again .Anyone reading this please please don’t make the same mistake I did .
        I know I am now on the right path , thank goodness , thanks to HG we have this understanding community available and the best knowledge from HG .No one else in my life would have a clue .


      2. NarcAngel says:

        People have different takes on what “angry” is. Some will interpret being direct or blunt as being rude or angry when that is not the intention at all – it’s just how the other party received the information. For instance, I have been accused of being angry here when I have not been angry at all, but people assume that because I am saying something they would not say or agree with, or in a way they would not present it that I must be. Good communication requires skill on the part of the receiver as well.

        Narcissists experience FURY when ignited.

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest NarcAngel,
          I have never found your comments to contain ‘angry’ overtones
          To me, you are direct, to the point, intelligent and have a most varied array of wit and humour, clever sarcasm, wisdom, truth, tell it like it is, along with a kind caring nurturing nature
          Your comments come across cool calm collected and I always look forward to reading them
          Criticism, as well as ” bluntness or being rude” as you mentioned, I agree. can be perceived as anger from a person, particularly if one is in a vulnerable state of emotions – we hear only what we want to hear and block out the rest
          We all have this desire to be right all the time haha
          Reading between the lines is also a skil
          I think “communication” is an area we ‘humans’ fail miserably ….. “misinterpretation” and “perception” have a lot to answer for. We fail to truly actively listen and very few bother to paraphrase. Texting is also a massive miscommunication culprit !
          “Anger” is a waste of energy, “logic” on the other hand, does not prevail until one’s anger and emotions are under control
          I believe you have a great sense of logic and control, which for an empath, is one of their most valued assets
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. NarcAngel says:


            Very kind. Thank you.

            Communication is indeed a struggle sometimes. I’m ever amazed at how I can be involved in, or even following what I think is a discussion or conversation amongst others, only to have the word argument tossed out there. I don’t consider it an argument just because people don’t agree or have opposing views. Some people appear to believe that a discussion is when people agree with them and when they do not that it is an argument. I find that baffling, and also unreasonable. I mean it’s a bit grade 7 (to me) if we all just sat around stroking each other’s hair and agreeing all the time (shudder haha). No growth there.

            I found ANM’s observations of some ACON’s communication styles astute and thought provoking. It is likely (I think) that a lifetime of carefully choosing your words and/or approach with narcissists will have some bearing on your communication style. Some will remain with what was expected of them or worked for them then, where others might embrace freedom from the previous rigidity or suppression they experienced and just let it all out. These differing childhood experiences and reactions along with the different types of empaths likely does have bearing on the different styles we witness here and causes some to suppose anger or argument when it may in fact be simply opinion and discussion.

            Having said that – I doubt that we would find many (if any) here who do not appreciate your style of communication.

            Always a pleasure,

          2. WiserNow says:


            I agree with you that our different backgrounds as ACONS have affected how we communicate and also how we interpret the things people say.

            Along with our backgrounds, there is also the differences in natural temperament and personality style. For instance, there’s introversion and extroversion, the level of agreeableness or openness etc.

            Also, there are many empathic people who are also highly sensitive too. High sensitivity traits are innate and will affect the person’s emotional reactivity. In studies, people with high sensitivity react either more positively or more negatively to the same positive/negative stimulus than a person without high sensitivity. So, a perception that is interpreted negatively, for example, will be amplified as even more negative than average by a highly sensitive person. The same goes for a perception that is interpreted positively.

            So, with all these differences amongst people, I think you don’t necessarily need to take it personally when someone misinterprets what you say. Perhaps it’s more of a learning process to understand how you are perceived as well as how you perceive others.

            By the way, NarcAngel, I am curious… what are your empath school/s and cadre/s?

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I did see your comment and didn’t respond because I think I’ve told you this before, but I’ll say it here for the record.

            I have never found any of your comments to me to be argumentative. You are a bright lady, so they are thought provoking, challenging even, but never argumentative. If we don’t agree on something, we don’t agree, simple as that. I don’t see that as argumentative, just a viewpoint from a different person in a different country with different life experiences to me. (As it happens I can’t think of anything you’ve said I’ve totally disagreed with!)

            As a reader and commenter that has been here far longer than me, your counsel is one that I will always listen to. I might not do as you suggest, because I’m a stubborn arse, but I will always always listen! I have really valued your support since my arrival and will continue to do so.

            Communication style is a good point. We’re all different. The fact we are read and not heard is another. Things can carry very differently over text. The online narc has caused me to have a self moderate button as far as online communication goes. Anything and everything I wrote to him could be twisted. There will be many other residual narc influences in play for many different readers, they are bound to show occasionally too.

          4. A Victor says:


            NA, I appreciate your input very much! It took only a brief time here to understand that while you are a direct person, you are equally thoughtful and compassionate. And, why should anyone put up with BS??

            The art of communicating, disagreeing, coming to an understanding, compromising etc, is dying. It is sad to see, it is causing major changes in the world, I fear. As a result, people who can articulate, and are courageous enough to do so, are becoming more necessary and valuable. And appreciated.

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest NarcAngel,
            Thank you NA, once again, you made a great deal of sense (as always) haha
            Differences of opinions, generally leads to either parties being offended in some way or another, particularly when one or both concerned are passionate in their convictions (Eg just look at politics or religion) hence an “argument” generally ensues and heels are dug in

            How often is one’s mindset ……”thou must agree with me because you are wrong and I am always right and if you don’t I will argue to the death”. The more one argues the more one begins to dislike that person for not cowtowing to your righteous views hence that bitter taste develops in one’s mouth
            There is this notion that there is always a winner and a loser in an “argument”. No one likes to be perceived as the ” loser” in a so called “argument” /discussion/ debate !
            Never argue with a narcissist, you will lose

            You’re right, respecting someone else’s point of view or opinion is about being open minded. Closed minds stop learning
            It’s disappointing to see people who haven’t mastered the art of a healthy debate or discussion without it escalating
            In a court of law, you simply cannot argue when presented with the facts

            Sadly, I feel to be an empath, we’re already automatically preset on defensive mode
            Thank you NarcAngel, the pleasure is also mutual, no argument there 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. A Victor says:


            “Sadly, I feel to be an empath, we’re already automatically preset on defensive mode” this is so true I think, perhaps especially so for ACONs. Coming to understand this, a few years ago, pre-KTN, helped my interactions with people very much, a very practical thing to learn about, realizing that we can stop and think about the communication and the communicator before we respond. This gives time to allow thought about their perspective, their mood, their intent etc, before jumping in, as I had been doing most of my life prior to that, born out of growing up always needing to be ready to protect myself, as much as I could. Thank you for bringing this point up.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Hi TS

            Please don’t misunderstand – I am unconcerned about my style and content until HG tells me he feels it negatively affects HIS blog. When I agree with him some people are not happy, when I oppose him some people are not happy. Some people are just not happy and I’m glad I can there for them haha.

            My opinions are just that, and no more valid than anyone else’s. Feel free to take them or leave them.

            You appear to use logic and look for the underlying intention in comments. I applaud you for that and thank you for recognizing it where mine are concerned. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to replace the batteries in my vibrator.


          8. Another Cat says:


            “My opinions are just that, and no more valid than anyone else’s. Feel free to take them or leave them.”

            A very healthy attitude.

            I think what scares some readers is that they/we don’t possess the way with words, composition, richness of feelings and content which you have. And your talents in particular are oh so scarce in the human world especially ever since internet exists.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            ( I see what you did there)

            Ha ha !

          10. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            Self awareness has been foremost for me coming here along with understanding the dynamics and the why’s and wherefores of being an ACON
            I was always in defensive mode because I was accused of doing wrong things …….. I never did. I always tried to avoid confrontation, so I ended up with no voice
            When you feel worthless, unloved, develop a low opinion of yourself or never good enough, you just end up just flagellating yourself even more

            Being on the defence is soul destroying

            I’ve always been a people pleaser, however, now I’ve learnt to please myself, listen more intently and stop justifying and defending myself unnecessarily !

            Most of us here have gone thru a lifetime of abuse, it certainly doesn’t fix itself overnight, we must be patient and give our healing, the time it deserves
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. A Victor says:

            Sweet Bubbles, thank you for this comment!

            “I was always in defensive mode because I was accused of doing wrong things …….. I never did. I always tried to avoid confrontation” Same!

            “Ended up with no voice”, that is exactly it! A couple of weeks ago, in a setting with a couple of close friends, they helped me realize why most people bug me, it is this right here. The experience of being offended at being “told”, as an adult, what to do, how to live etc was due to a hypersensitivity, from childhood, on my part. I do think things through and make informed decisions, for myself even though as a child I learned not to share. As an adult, I don’t discuss my decisions, or thought processes on how I arrived there, with other people, unless there is a reason to. But so often, people have assumed I have no decision or have had a lack of thought around said decision, and I have taken offense, like they don’t think I think! Seriously, who doesn’t think?! But that day, I realized, I can let it roll off my back, this is a normal way for people to talk with each other and, to many people, it is a show of caring. Huh. That was a new concept. I was able to get there because of what I’ve been learning here, the timing was right. You are so right, being on the defense is soul destroying. And I don’t have to eschew humans entirely to avoid it! That was an exciting break-thru!

            Also, thank you for bringing to the fore that most here have gone through a lifetime of abuse, I don’t know a lot of the stories and it is easy to think that I am somehow “special” when it is not the case. Not sure that’s what I am meaning, we are all special but abuse is abuse is abuse… Anyway, I am so thankful for the patience people here have as we come to more understanding.

          12. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            Thank youuuuuuuu lovely one
            Sometimes, I feel we are as insiduous to ourselves, as the narcissist is to us !
            I am very much in sync with you of not feeling being heard and that other’s opinions are more important and they’re not really interested in my point of view ……you explained that really well
            Just out of interest, take note the number of times people talk OVER you
            You should see their faces when you point out to them … “ahem, I’m in the middle of talking”

            Just to confirm, you are “very special” A Victor, abuse is abuse no matter what length of time
            You’re a beautiful person AV, don’t you ever forget that!

            I’m guilty ……. I don’t like being told what to do either ……I’m a grown woman! However, people just can’t help but to offer their unsolicited advice !
            Then it starts all over again with us perhaps perceiving it as criticism, being defensive, judged and with added undue stress !
            That why I’m lucky to have two ears …. goes right in one ear and out the other now 👂👂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          13. A Victor says:

            Ah yes, in one ear and out the other, thank you!

          14. WiserNow says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            Your comment raises quite a few very relevant points and I agree with you. Misinterpretation and perception is different for each one of us. It’s all subjective, as HG has pointed out in the past.

            It’s also a little ironic that this thread about anger and different communication styles and misinterpretation is located under a post about the super empath. The different schools and cadres of empaths and narcissists wouldn’t be needed if we all communicated and perceived things in the same way.

            Bubbles, I admire your lovely and consistent way of getting your points across in a way that’s eloquent and at the same time very personable😇 Me, on the other hand… I have a tendency sometimes to go in with guns blazing while wearing war paint!💥 I’m learning though😉 We are all different. I’m betting you have a lot of Venus in your astrology chart, while I know I have a fair amount of Mars and Pluto.

            …oops, better not bring up Astrology. HG thinks it’s just a bit of magical fluff 🤐

          15. NarcAngel says:


            I don’t take it personally when someone misinterprets what I say. I understand that emotional thinking can be present, but when people continue to receive information with the emotion THEY FEEL instead of logic to review what was ACTUALLY said, it is easier for them to fall prey to seeing it as an argument rather than a discussion. That was my point.

            I understand how I can be perceived, what I don’t understand is why the onus is most often placed on the person who is direct to change their delivery, and not the receiver to better determine if they may just be too sensitive to receive the information at that time – or ever for that matter. It works both ways. The style of communication or delivery that resonates with one is the preference of that person, a choice in interaction. It need not dictate that any change is required on the part of the deliverer as there are others who may not receive the information in the same way.

            Information and opinions are deposited and exchanged here. What we do with them is individual choice.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            NA, your last paragraph – excellently worded. My respect for you remains the same as it was when I arrived to KTN blog.

          17. WiserNow says:


            Thank you for your reply. As humans, it’s normal to take personally – to some extent – what people say about us, or how they react to what we’ve said. All of us have a subjective response. If we didn’t, we would be machines or robots with no nervous system. What you say about other people having ’emotional thinking’ while you have ‘logic’ is illogical in itself. As a human, your reaction, like everyone else’s, is subjective, which means it has a degree of ’emotional thinking’ that is subjective in relation to you.

            Not sure why you think anyone wants you to change your delivery or that the onus is on you to change the way you communicate. To me, that sounds like a subjective reaction. If you say something and someone else doesn’t agree fully with what you’ve said or how you’ve said it, does that mean they expect you to change? In my view, I don’t think so. I think it means that the way you see or state things is not the same as the way someone else does – and that’s the extent of it. Do you expect to receive unconditional praise or agreement for everything you say?

            “Information and opinions are deposited and exchanged here. What we do with them is individual choice.”
            – to this, I would reply, ‘I agree.’

            I note you didn’t respond to my question asking about your school/cadre of empath. Have you undergone HG’s EDC?

          18. NarcAngel says:


            An excellent example of what you felt when you read my comment vs what was actually said. I did not say others have emotional thinking while “I” have logic. I said when people continue to receive information based on how they feel instead of using logic to review what was actually said that they can fall prey to perceiving what is meant to be a discussion as an argument. That goes for any interaction and not just ones that I am involved in. I have witnessed it in conversations that I have not been a part of at all.

            “Not sure why you think anyone wants you to change your delivery or that the onus is on you to change the way you communicate.”

            What I actually said was:
            “what I don’t understand is why the onus is most often placed on the person who is direct to change their delivery,”

            Not just here but in any interaction.

            There are more people than myself who are direct, and it has certainly been suggested on occasion here (but again, meant generally and outside of this arena as well) that those who are direct might want to review their approach to a more empathic or less direct style by those who would prefer that. I just think it a bit strange because less direct people I assume would not be receptive to being told: you may want to be more concise and assertive if you want to get your point across, so why is it felt okay to address the delivery of the direct? You have yourself suggested to me that I might consider a different approach/words previously so it’s a bit strange that you would be unsure why now.

            “Do you expect to receive unconditional praise or agreement for everything you say?”

            No I do not. That would be pointless and uninteresting to me.

            Conversely, I could ask you:

            Do you expect people to be in agreement with everything you say or it is an argument? (Rhetorical question meant for reflection and not requesting an answer).

            Super Empath was determined by HG through consultation long before the EDC was ever created.

          19. WiserNow says:


            I have thought about your comment regarding direct communication and the onus being placed on those that are more direct to change their style.

            I can understand what you’re saying. In general, that is, in contexts that are conversational, or in a social discourse or group context, a direct or concise or assertive communication style may be seen more often as rude or confronting or insensitive, even when the logic of what’s said is valid or true.

            In my subjective opinion… I think any ‘message’ has two distinct components. One of these is simply the words said. Just the dry, literal, meaning of the words or the sentence. The second involves how those words are said, that is, the tone, emotion, body language, context, connotation, innuendo, situation, environment, audience, etc.

            For example, if a direct, blunt sentence was said by a policeman in the street warning a pedestrian not to walk against a red light as an oncoming car was approaching, the blunt manner of the policeman would generally be considered appropriate.

            If the situation was a group conversation where individually various people were all talking amongst themselves in a casual way, the dynamic is quite different. If one of the group said something in a blunt, assertive, direct way, it would be more likely to be taken as rude or offensive because of the context and the higher probability that someone in the group will not be agreeable with the tone, intent or connotation, *even though* the ‘logic’ of the message is valid.

            I guess that is what is meant by ‘pro-social’. To have a level of innate understanding to be able to reflect instinctively on how your words and tone will be perceived by the listener in a particular context.

            Not all contexts are the same, so there will be contexts where a blunt, direct manner is more appropriate.

            When you say the onus is on the direct, assertive person to change their direct manner “in any interaction”, I think that’s a generalisation.

            If it’s a social context where various personalities are collectively communicating for the purpose of each one being part of the whole, then I think the onus is generally for each person to have a degree of diplomacy or understanding about the others in the group. If the others in the group are also blunt, direct and assertive, then that particular style will be more acceptable to the group as a whole. If the others in the group generally have a more tactful or diplomatic style, then if one person says something that’s blunt or direct, that person will probably stand out as rude *in that context* even if the person’s words are logically correct.

            So, I think there are nuances and differences when it comes to communication styles.

            When you say I suggested that you may consider a different approach, I do remember saying that, however, it was in relation to one post and it was said in one conversation for that post. It wasn’t a blanket suggestion related to your overall communication style. Also, I recall saying various positive things to you in other conversations as well. I remember saying that I enjoyed your witty jokes and one-liners. I remember saying that I agreed with your views about certain comments.

            Finally, I don’t expect to be agreed with all the time, nor do I want that. One of the reasons I enjoy this blog is because of the many various experiences people discuss in a variety of different ways. In fact, I think I have been disagreed with as much as I have been agreed with – if not more – and that hasn’t deterred me from continuing to provide my honest views.

            Thank you for your comment NarcAngel. I have enjoyed thinking more deeply about your points and writing about my thoughts.

          20. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest WiserNow,
            I was very touched by your kind encouraging words about my style of communication, you gave me a nice warm fuzzy. Thank you lovely one 😊

            Firstly, we all argue and will continue to do so. Anger to me, is usually about emotional frustration, in particular, not being heard, being misconstrued, or feeling threatened in some way
            How many times have we said or heard “you’re not listening to what I’m saying”
            We all have differences of opinions with varied styles, that’s what makes us all unique individuals. It is a healthy outlet to a degree, as long as it’s diffused or converted to a constructive outcome or behaviour

            Conversing with narcissists face to face or communicating by texting is frustrating as hell
            With the weasel, any little thing could trigger him off, I could sense his anger and on many occasions during a text (and especially during my devaluation), I would say “I’ll leave you be then” or “well, I have to go now”

            My mum gets angry over ridiculous things, like Mondays for instance (hates hates hates Mondays). or female newsreaders wearing sleeveless tops and bearing skin or someone with tats, the gardener rocking up to mow her lawn or just a knock at her door. I kid you not !

            I’ve learnt not to argue with our greater friend, when he tries to deliberately instigate something, definitely a no go zone there!

            For me, anyone with a “short fuse” is a red flag !
            With narcs, I believe, you’ll never be on the same page …….ever !

            Haha, WiserNow, as it so happens, my mum organised for me eons ago, my own personal horoscope from the College of Astrological Studies which I still have. It appears Venus in my chart is most favourable indeed. Now you’ve got me interested in finding out more
            Here goes 😱
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          21. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome Bubbles. When I read your comments, what I find resonates from them is a mix of wisdom and humour wrapped up in a story-telling style 🙂

            I agree with you that narcs have a very short fuse, and anger or contempt is generally always simmering just below the surface. Also, narcs are not agreeable or willing to compromise unless there’s an agenda involved or a strategy for their own gain or benefit. I think they see ‘compromise’ as ‘defeat’. They generally see every conversation, encounter, etc as a win/lose, superior/inferior kind of ‘competition’ instead of just a conversation or social situation between people who are different etc.

            For a long time, this general attitude from the narcs I knew was perplexing and exhausting to me. It felt like I was forever trying to ‘explain’ certain things that I thought were self-evident, eg. equality, fairness, open-mindedness, justice, etc. Now I know that I was trying to explain an empath’s worldview to a narc! No wonder it was exhausting!

            About the astrology, I enjoy reading and learning about the different planets, houses, and aspects in a chart. It’s fascinating and has helped me understand myself better regarding emotional reactions and instinctive behaviours.

            When I said earlier that you have a lot of Venus in your chart, I didn’t phrase that well. What I should have said is that Venus may possibly rule your ascendant, or Venus may be aspected favourably in your chart. If you do want to find out more, an interesting thing to do is look at different aspects, such as squares, oppositions or conjunctions between planets. Once you start learning about these in your own birth chart, it can give you insights into your own personality xx 😘

          22. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest WiserNow,
            You got that right lovely, I’m definitely a bit of a mix 🤣
            No seriously, thank you for your kind compliment and feedback
            It helps me to understand that it’s not necessarily my fault in conversing and that I can get my message across . . . narcs make you feel inadequate to them
            I totally concur with your thoughts on the win/lose, superior/inferior concept and they compete all the way, you make an extremely valid point WN

            I remember texts with the weasel, soooooo exhausting ! As long as I agreed with him, everything went smoothly. As soon as I had my own opinion or disagreed, the conversation went down like the Titanic ! 🚢

            My mum becomes exhausting as well. They’re very closed minded and won’t budge in their thought processing, that needle continually gets stuck in the same ol groove
            When you see the signs, disengagement is the best course of action!

            You’re never going to win and that doesn’t bother me in the slightest !

            With regard to astrology, thankyou for your recommendations, I shall have pen n paper ready at hand and see what aligns within my planets 🌗
            Hugs to you WiserNow and thank you 😊
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Thank you, Asp Emp.

        3. Melmel says:

          Just reading through this old thread. Thanks everyone for your input and insight! One person said that it’s easy to feel like you are the only one who has experienced these things, from being an ACON, to an empath always on the defensive; the hypersensitivity to criticism/conflict, the need to take time to absorb, process, and reflect BEFORE responding. I finally feel like there are others like me – those who understand and have dealt with the challenges that I thought were unique to me as part of my “Wrongness”… things I have been told my whole life are a product of being inherently flawed. There is so much wisdom and truth on this blog – I feel so lucky to have found KTN for the seemingly bottomless pit of HG’s insights as well as learning from other empaths what your journeys and healing processes have been. Again thanks.

    6. BC30 says:

      YAY! I’m so happy to read you are waiting on an ED.

    7. MP says:

      Hello Kiki,

      Anger is a healthy emotion. I learned from reading that it is healthy to help my kids acknowledge their anger when they feel it. It is fury that is not normal. I don’t know if fury and rage are the same but people with traumatic disorders experience rage. I believe that I have experienced rage before although it is very seldom but I have never been violent to anyone or anything during those times. Just a very intense physical reaction. And I still have never experienced blacking out. But I have been diagnosed with PTSD although I believe it’s really CPTSD.

    8. Empath007 says:

      from my own personal experience no one can bring out my anger like a narcissist. When I was with my ex I couldn’t even recognize myself I was constantly saying mean things and generally… angry. I see it as a good thing because it was telling me
      Something was wrong. I used my anger to pull myself out of the relationship. Without the disruptions of the narcissist I am much more level headed and calm in my day to day interactions with people.

      1. Siren says:

        Boy howdy are you correct there 007, I’ve always had a very hard to light fuze but evey time it’s been lit it was a narc… my sr year I ended a yr long relationship because I feared I’d *seriously hurt* him, only time I’d seen red my whole life… He’d denied me use of his cell phone to call 911 as he feared it would charge him when we saw a car upsidedown in the ditch, he also wouldn’t pull over and let me help as ‘I was too clumsy, he’d have to call two paramedics’ by the time we got to my work so I could report the accident I got confirmation it was my managers car. in a panic they floored it to them after calling but her husband already passed and she nearly died of hypothermia. He was so cold about the whole thing. Before that he refused to help me tow my firebird despite having a truck (he acted like he was going to, even grabbed a rope and gave me a lift to my car) didn’t even help me push it up the off ramp except to comment about how strong I was, all my effort was in vain as it got towed in the night resulting in a 500$ bill I couldn’t afford and 100 extra per day with payday a week off. which he found amusing… But it was shortly after all this he informed me that I was weak and it showed in my need to believe in a god or higher power of any kind, he was just superior to me and most, in every way. most of all it was the look on his face… I nearly blacked out, my vision was blurry, it was the worst feeling ever. I could visualize pounding his face in and worse… I was horrified having never experienced rage like that before. Looking back I’m so glad I didn’t marry him! At the time we were 17-18. I ended the relationship that night, he thought it was over differences in taste of interior decorating as he liked green and orange and I did not, at least that’s what got back to me. Figured if he was that dense no point in trying to explain, being clueless it was a difference in empathy. He went off to college, only once did he hoover and it was asking for one for old times sake, he couldn’t find anyone else with brains and looks according to him, guess that was his version of sorry lol. I laughed and shot him down. I moved away, no social media to keep track of me with. I’m sure he moved on and up to bigger better things as he was definitely not a lesser, probably not even a midranger… Oof, looks like empaths downgrade too *facepalm*
        Anger is perfectly healthy, depending on how it’s processed. but only a narc can make you want to rip your own eyes out of socket or rent a wood chipper to rectify the issue lol 😆

    9. WiserNow says:

      Hi Kiki,

      Your question about anger is an interesting one. I think anger, like many emotions, has both a positive side and a negative side too.

      Anger can be healthy when it motivates us to get up and take action about something. It can be energising and inspiring. If you are angry about an injustice to yourself or someone else for example, you can then be motivated to do something about it. Or, if you are angry about a narc manipulating you and taking advantage, the anger you feel could give you the energy needed to begin thinking about protecting yourself.

      Then, there is anger that is negative. It might be a case of having a short fuse and being irritable because you haven’t had a good night’s sleep. Or it could be intolerance because a next door neighbour is playing their music at full blast and you can’t watch TV in peace, or whatever the case may be. These are fairly insignificant reasons to lose your temper, but the same goes for bigger or more serious reasons.

      So, I think anger has many different shades to it. Sometimes, anger can be narcissistic when it’s a case of someone’s self-righteous kind of anger coming from a sense of entitlement or a way to blame their own lack of self-regulation on someone or something else.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Read Fury, anger and (obviously) fury are dealt with there and are explained in detail, including the difference between the two.

      2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear WiserNow,
        Sorry, I just saw your comment
        May have kinda repeated what you just said
        Great minds think alike haha
        I get a angry when Mr Bubbles pees on the floor and I step in it ! 🚽
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. WiserNow says:

          Hi Bubbles,
          There’s no need to be sorry. I’m sure I miss people’s comments too, or reply late, because I don’t always receive notifications. Also, there are lots of posts every day, so I don’t remember where I’ve left comments and how long ago.

          I’m sorry if I have missed any of your comments too. Please know that it wasn’t intentional. I always try to reply to all comments anyone sends to me.

          I’m not surprised that stepping in pee makes you angry Bubbles! Very annoying. Especially if you’re unaware and then walk around the house leaving pee footprints everywhere… 😡🙄

    10. wildviolet22 says:

      Kiki- are you familiar with Plutchik’s “feelings wheel”? It give you a visual of primary and secondary emotions. Sometimes having a visual is helpful. If you get a chance to look that up, and see how the feelings are grouped, maybe you’d find it helpful too.

  8. Sarah says:

    HG, what is The Assassin’s Revenge?

    Your website has been very helpful to me. Thank you. I don’t know even if I am an empath, however, you describe very accurately what happened when I want no contact with my father. The interesting thing is that, he was bent on still controlling. He never would completely just let me be. I absolutely never engaged with him directly, but as he was my father, there were perhaps 3 occasions when a response was necessary, and that was always done through an attorney — an as short, direct and emotionally void as possible.

    How can I learn more about the different kinds of narcissists? Why are you calling no contact, no contact revenge?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is covered in the book “Revenge”, although it is not referred to in the book as Assassin´s Revenge. I labelled it as such after it was written to distinguish that form of revenge from the No Contact Revenge.

      1. SARAH says:

        Thx so much!

  9. Ciara says:

    I don’t know what emphatic group I am. I know men will not approach me in a way that most say is attractive. They look.speak and keep going. Thanks for the insight H.G.

  10. Truthseeker6157 says:


    Just listened to your latest video! Mystery solved. Brilliant, thank you.

  11. Another Cat says:


    do you know of any super empath (at least someone with major cadre SE), who was IPPS to a narcissist for a whole decade?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do you mean personally, AC.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Ah, not necessarily, just whether you know any example of a super empath enduring a whole ten-year relationship with a narcissist.

    2. A Victor says:

      Hi AC,
      I have wondered how long they typically last also. In part because I am majority Standard with a very strong Super element, not quite a Super, and I was with my ex for 23 years, married for 16 of those. Does that extra little percentage make that much of a difference? Or maybe it rests on the cadres. Both of my marriages had very long dating times, 4 years and 7 years, and both of them said to me “I just need to be sure about a few things.” which at the time I took to mean if they could handle (being married to) me, ha! Neither of them could, haha. Not funny really. Anyway, thanks for asking the question.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Interesting thoughts, AV.
        The father of my kids I fled after 8-9 years, but beforehand and after I rather quickly questioned and showed discomfort to guys who manipulated. They had impeccable reputation of being kind among friends but why did they then lie halfthetime, both to me and others? And why the selective memory? I ponder no more. I only regret breaking up with empathic exes. Really. Two of those three nice exes live with narc wives now. One of them I think has a happy life with a nonnarc woman.

        1. A Victor says:

          My regret is the years lost to my ex. I hung in there longer than I should have because of 4 kids but also and equally because of my pride and having ended another marriage earlier in my life, I didn’t want to claim 2 divorces. Plus I loved him, haha, joke on me.

        2. A Victor says:

          AC, have you done the EDC?

          1. Another Cat says:

            No, not yet. I recognise both CoD traits (often apologizing) and some kickass ones too.

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi AC,
            I thought I would be CoD also, because of the same thing, people used to tell me to stop apologizing. After I heard it enough I made a real effort and have gotten better. I have also realized that most people, probably mostly normals, don’t always hear something the same way I might. Something that I would read as potentially offensive often rolls off their back, even on those occasions where I wouldn’t have been offended by the same. I have chalked that up to the walking on eggshells growing up. All of that to say, I was completely surprised by the results of my EDC but knowing it has been very beneficial to my growth, in my mind anyway. It has given me a sense of self, which I didn’t even realize in a conscious way that I was lacking. That is probably not a problem you have, most don’t from what I gather. Anyway, it has been good, also the TDC and the WEC. All very empowering.

    3. Elainna L Jones says:

      I am a super empath (according to the empath detector) and have been married to a middle mid ranger b for 2 decades.

      1. Another Cat says:

        I understand. Thanks! Those bitches are very tough, Middle Mid Bs, my mother is that. Your mental health must have been hugely abused, I gather. They can be very negative and have tonnes of conspiracy theories. The number of those theories grows with age.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Middle Mid Rangers are all pure horror! Their constant Boo Hoo Pity Plays make me puke! Disgusting!

        2. Another Cat says:


          Apologies for the misread.

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        May I ask which cadre you are?

      3. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hello Eliana,

        Welcome to the blog!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Elainna* sorry!

      4. A Victor says:

        Thank you for sharing this Elainna L Jones, this begs the question then of if the Super has abundant staying power also, if they so decide…it seems it is likely so.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          I think it may depend on the significant minority schools and the cadres? I can imagine that a Super Carrier may stay longer (even though it´s not the case with me, but I have significant Geyser minority traits), probably the Super Savoir may stay longer as well, trying to help and rescue? Maybe a Super with significant Co-Dependent elements stays long? Don´t know, I´m just guessing a bit. 🙂

          1. A Victor says:

            That would all make sense Leela.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Leela, LET

            Regarding the famous anger, I recognize it. It often comes from a power position, not always from the cliff. Feeling warm all over the body, handing out silent treatment, immediately smiling at someone else, but not nervously, or saying things like

            “Oh, 250 horsepowers you say? You car is almost as strong as Steve’s then!”

            Or to a b****y woman: “sorry, I forgot your name again”

            Oh, I know where it hurts, and at what time. I just use those very rarely.

            I never stare though. That’s for others.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’m yet to read the Cliff Fightback, so I’ll do that shortly, but I can see how an SE response will generally come from a power position. Once I feel my integrity is compromised I have the power of my beliefs or values behind me. This has certainly been the case when it comes to triangulation. I won’t allow myself to be triangulated because that devalues me. So I have the choice to ignore it or confront it. Either way I won’t tolerate it. If I ignore it, it’s a “kiss my ass” and walk away moment, or if I confront it, it’s a “bullshit” and you’re going to explain yourself moment. I’ll feel that in my gut. It’s very visceral for me.

            I see you have it in hand, AC. More power to you.

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            OH YES! I recognize all of it!

            “Well that´s nice but you know, John use to do XY…”
            “Yeah, I understand. You´re not like Jack – oh wow, was he great at …XY.. You know, he always used to ….XYZ. Man, how I liked that”.

            “I´m still wearing size S, yes, at my age, indeed. Well it takes a little discipline though” (while sitting at the table with some b*tchy woman. and DEMONSTRATIVELY eating only a salad 😀 😀 )

          5. Leigh says:

            I’m with my husband for 35 years and although I haven’t done a narc detector him, I’m fairly certain he is one. At the very least, the relationship is abusive and toxic. I’m a standard empath with strong Super and no CoD. I’m triple hybrid Carrier, geyser & savior. I carry, then explode then save. Same cycle every time. I’ve had at least 3 cliff fightbacks that I can remember. I’m sure there are more. Usually after a cliff fightback, the respite period is much longer. I had one in December and so far its been peaceful. Which is good because the time that leads up to the fightback, is exhausting.

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            My mom has been married to Patri Narc for more than 50 years. Can´t believe it! I would have ran away after a couple of years. I was only just once IPPS of a Upper Lesser Type A Somatic, once shelf-dynamics, once NISS, had one co-worker and one boss who were narcs. From my former boss I ran away after 1 year. Take care of yourself, the best would be GOSO of course.

          7. Leigh says:

            Leela, yes best thing to do is GOSO. Both my parents are abusive and my husband is too. Its all I know.

            You made a comment on another thread about withdrawing, lying and sneaking around doing things in secret. I do that too with my husband. I had an 18 month affair and every time he told me how perfect he was, I thought in my head, “Yeah, you’re perfect, thats why I’m sleeping with another man.”

            I’m not proud of what I’ve done.I just wanted to share how I’ve fought back too.

          8. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Leigh, full understanding, full empathy! 100 % empathy! We are only human. Of course cheating is not exactly a great thing to do, but a) we are only human and b) depends on the circumstances. Even when a marriage is good, it CAN happen because we are only human. No matter what: You must do everything to save your sanity!

          9. Another Cat says:


            “My mom has been married to Patri Narc for more than 50 years. Can´t believe it!”

            Me neither. There are several spouses like this, it’s quite common actually. Never escape, never disengaged from. Sharing the same house for life. My empath father endured his last 44 yrs with my MNRN B mother. For him it was very very painful.

            Is your mother perhaps a carrier empath or a normal, Leela? I’m just pondering whether some personalities endure this better. Nevertheless, you are a true inspiration for being free yourself.

          10. leelasfuelstinks says:

            VERY good questions! I´m actually asking the same questions! She is serving Patri Narc 24/7, fulfilling all his wishes, totally submitting to him. When Patri Narc abused me, she DID NOT protect me. She asked ME as child for compassion for Patri Narc!! I never saw her standing up for herself or for me. I suspect that she´s CoD.

          11. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Oh, forgot this: One thing we should keep in mind: the moral compass of the generation of our parents. An important point is, that back then, when our parents were young, a divorce was considered as “shame”. You just did not separate, did not divorce, it was a tabu back then. And also some Empaths stay with their narcs for religious reasons. “The sacred bond of marriage”, not matter what! With this attitude you stay in an abusive relationship. It was a completely different time back then, with completely different attitudes and morals. Some don´t GOSO for financial reasons and here we come back to the topic: tabus, habits, traditions. We must consider that earlier, until around the 1980s women stayed at home, many were houswifes and so financially dependent from their husbands. They couldn´t just GOSO! I think those are important factors why women stayed so long with narc-husbands. The men stayed with their narc-wifes probably because of religion and tradtion?

          12. NarcAngel says:

            I imagine another narc (more specifically victim narc) or Co-d might have the staying power. I wonder how many times the “long suffering partner” might actually be a victim narc and not an empath at all. Our emotional thinking in play.

          13. A Victor says:

            NA, good point, my mother, the victim narc, married for 60 years to my dad, the UMR. Interesting thought.

          14. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Good question. Either another narc (who receives enough fuel from the narc-partner) or a CoD can stay so long nowadays. As I pointed out, when our parents where young, things (moral, tradition, religion) were completely different.

          15. Leigh says:

            Another Cat and Leela, I’ve been with my narx husband for 35 years and according to my empath detector, I have no CoD. I do have strong carrier though. I stay because I feel bad for him. He can’t take care of himself.

            Leela, I’m sorry your mom didn’t protect you from PatriNarc. I’m sorry you suffered that abuse and didn’t have anyone to protect you. I failed a little bit in that department too. I didn’t tell my children to have compassion for him but I told them to not poke the bear, to leave him alone and ignore him. I’ve since apologized to my children. We do the best we can with what me know. I wish I could have done more to protect them.

            I hope you get the apology you deserve too.

          16. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thank you, Leigh! I´m alright, I´m strong – but of course wounded. That´s why I´m here.

            But now I have to make things complicated. I´m mainly Carrier, but escaped early. Narcs prefer me on the shelf 😀 probably due to my strong Geyser-traits 😉 I use to put up a fight! I don´t just carry! I can also erupt! Probably that´s why I´m the “perfect” shelf-appliance 😀 😉

          17. Witch says:

            About the cheating..
            I don’t care what narc gets cheated on. Cheating isn’t always black and white when it’s a non-narcissist doing it.
            I emotionally cheated on my ex and it gave me the confidence to stick to ending the relationship with the narc. I have no regrets and I’m proud that I survived and got out. At the time I felt guilty and actually told the narc when he started questioning me but if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn’t care

          18. Witch says:

            I would have thought that there would be more narcs who “liked” the geyser for their expressiveness?
            I don’t explode and I’m not sure what could even make me errupt. I undermine the narc by loosing interest in them and becoming more interested in other people. So the narc gets pissed because my attention is going else where as they are no longer an important person to me

          19. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Keep in mind, Witch, that even though Geyser erupts with emotions, they, on the other hand, are hard to control.

          20. A Victor says:

            Leela, so combined with the Super aspect, you are a double whammy of hard to control? I am too but a much more mild version. And I internalize my rebellion rather than go outward with it, typically. Thank you for pointing this out!

          21. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, I am a double whammy! 😀 😉 That´s why my fuel stinks 😉 and that´s why I have only been targeted once as IPPS. Dominant and controlling men (narcs and non-narcs) used to run away from me, I´m too much of a rebel! 😉 I´m not submissive enough, not compliant enough. I´m definitely not the first choice as IPPS for narcs. They may like my strong emotions, my empathy but: On the shelf please! 😀 😉

          22. A Victor says:

            I believe my ex liked my initial feistiness but he wasted no time in starting to get control, even during the Golden Period. I really likely should have seen it, looking back. One time I even said to him “You offer icing but is there actually cake underneath?” He had a 404 moment and never did answer me, verbally.
            Hopefully, well armed now, I will see it going forward.

          23. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Buahahahahaha 😀 I can´t count the corrective devaluations of all narcs I met. 😀 Even during the golden period, Patri Narcs malign assertions of control 🙁 the Silent Treatments from the Mid Ranger, the triangulations from my first narc (unknown school and cadre, NDC not possible due to lack of information, went GOSO more than 20 years ago). And I love the 404 moments: hilarious! 😀 😀 Saw them in my Middle Mid Ranger, he did The Stare very often (eeew!). Patri Narc catches up very quickly, he has great cognitive empathy. He reads body language and even hears from my voice how I am and how I feel. He very quickly gets it and knows what to say. And if not, it´s just “ask mom, she will help you with that” 😉 😀

          24. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Reminds me on a story, very long time ago: I was around 18 or 19 and was out with my back-then best friend. She is definitely an Empath even with CoD-traits. She had mostly relationships with dominant men. As soon as she was in a romantic relationship she instantly neglected her friends! So, once we were out and “my” first narc actually was interested in HER. She refused, so I was an emergency-pick. He was not particularly interested in me and very soon I found myself on the shelf 😀 I accidentally wounded him several times very badly. He withdrew, insulted me, triangulated me and then after months he came back for a hoover: until the day I decided enough is enough! Even though he´s a Somatic, he was horrible in bed! We only tried to have sex once and that was enough for me 😀 I escaped.

            For Patri Narc it should be more of a CoD with high Magnet-traits, my Upper Lesser Type A Ex would have needed an Empath who is high in Savior traits (he passed away), my ex Middle Mid Ranger too. A CoD Savior with Carrier and Martyr traits, but and no Magnet traits would be a perfect victim for this Middle Mid Range Type A.

          25. A Victor says:

            I am impressed that you can tell what kind of

          26. A Victor says:

            OOPs, hit send by accident! Anyway, Leela, I am impressed you can tell what kind of empath would work with the narcissists from your life! I aspire to that some day as well!

          27. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Well, I´m just guessing based on H.G´s articles and the book “Sitting Target”. 🙂 And a little psychic power of the Super Empath 😉 but mainly the book.

          28. A Victor says:

            @Witch, do you have Contagion in your mix, if you know and if you share, not trying to pry.

          29. Another Cat says:

            LET, Leela

            … and now the CoD traits. On Monday a nice guy at work wrote me a note about me not having been able to contact someone important yet, I’m delayed. And he had already given me two extra days.

            I had a pang of embarrassement and guilt and immediately started the fixing, no excuse,didn’t leave the house until today when I had finally taken care of what he asked me about. Now here I am, relieved, again apologizing in an email to him.

          30. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ahh, can’t keep a good Co-Dependent down, AC 🙂

            Although rather than being a CoD issue I’d say it’s simply one where as empaths we accept accountability for our actions. That will, of course, come with the requisite sense of remorse and a desire to put things to right. I’m glad you’re feeling relieved and I’m sure he accepted your apology (you said he was a nice guy 🙂 )

            Now, if he were a narcissist he may have ground you into the dirt to prove his sense of superiority, and likely triggered the SE aspect of your nature. Those self protective measures would have come into play. Never hesitate to bring a clown to your meeting on the third warning if that is the case 😉

          31. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Wow! Actually very nice, but a bit over the top 😉

          32. Leigh says:

            Witch & Leela, thank you for your understanding & empathy with regards to the cheating. I don’t feel good about it. I know it was wrong. My actions had the potential to hurt several people, not just my husband. I have children too. Plus workplace narc is married with children as well. It wasn’t a decision I made lightly. He chased me for years. We became friends first. I knew what I was doing was wrong but I fell madly, deeply, passionately in love with workplace narc. So I gave in. Well, considering he was a narcissist as well, we know how that ended up. That’s what brought me here. That’s the silver lining. I found this site and gained awareness. I’m beyond grateful to all of you and Mr. Tudor.

          33. A Victor says:

            Leigh, cheating happens, it’s not good but it also not the “unforgivable sin”. I have admired your honestly with regard to it. I cheated on my first husband 34 years ago, saw him Saturday, he survived. I’m also not proud of that but it’s part of my history, had to make amends, forgive myself etc and move on. It has given me compassion for others who have made the same choice, especially now, knowing about narcissism.

          34. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Leigh, we are ONLY HUMAN – we don´t always do the things which are right. We make mistakes, we give in to temptation, we act on our emotions, we have moments of weakness, we make bad decisions, it´s all part of being human. And we are Empaths. 🙂 Why shouldn´t we have Empathy for you? Judging other people is for suckers 😉

          35. Witch says:

            Good point sometimes I forget that its not only about fuel but also what level of control the narc can have over you

            It wasn’t the greatest situation to be in, but you wanted to be loved after experiencing years of abuse and neglect. Unfortunately the side dude turned out to be a narc as well, but I think what happened was understandable given the circumstances.
            I also don’t believe it’s any of the children’s business who cheats and they don’t need to know, it might be relevant that they do know when they are adults but before then, they don’t need to know.
            I didn’t need to know that my narc mother’s narc boyfriend cheated on her but she made sure everyone knew and also allowed my sister to verbally fight the other woman but my mum took him back anyway so what was the point of all that? It gave the narcs fuel but it didn’t do anything for the rest of us

          36. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Witch: It´s mainly fuel AND CONTROL, character traits, residual benefits.

          37. Leigh says:

            AV, Leela & Witch, thank you for your understanding.

            @Witch, my husband and my children don’t know. I don’t want to ever tell them. I don’t believe in hurting another individual to purge my own guilt. That’s not fair.

            I’m sorry you experienced that with your mother and her boyfriend. That was not right of her to do to you and your sister.

        2. SARAH says:

          Raises the question. Not begs begs the question is a philosophical construct having to so with the argument.

          1. A Victor says:


          2. A Victor says:

            BEG, verb transitive
            3. To take for granted; to assume without proof; as, to beg the question in debate. – Webster’s Dictionary 1828

            “…to assume without proof…” is the portion I was thinking, very casually, when I wrote my comment. Incorrect as there was no question in debate, rather I was acknowledging the potential “raising” of a question. I apologize if this grated on your nerves. I do appreciate the educational aspect of your comment, but, I am also grateful for those who looked to the intended meaning and responded to that.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Speak how you like. We come here to discuss informally – not to be graded on grammar and corrected unnecessarily. There were errors in that comment as well. We all make them.

          4. A Victor says:

            NA, thank you, it could be easy for a person to be put off from the blog with such things making it seem potentially unsafe here. A couple of my pet peeves are sentence structure and punctuation but I would never allow those things to override the need the person bringing them has for the information they can obtain here. I appreciate your comment very much.

      5. BC30 says:

        MMRB I’m so, so sorry. Welcome.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          BC30 Ha ha, that tickled me. Online narc is MMRB too.

          1. Sarah says:

            A Victor; its a pet peeve of mine. You’re not the 1st person I’ve corrected, lol! Didn’t mean to offend. 🙂

          2. A Victor says:


  12. lickemtomorrow says:

    This is from HGs article on the Super Empath:

    “The Super Empath is also a giver but whereas the co-dependent is masochistic in this giving, the Super Empath does so from a position of strength. They are drawn to our kind less because of the co-dependent’s need to seek validation of identity through a narcissist, but more because they are initially attracted to the apparent emotional output of the narcissist … the Super Empath is just as engaging as the narcissist and thus there is a mutual attraction.

    “… she will be forthcoming with her empathic traits once she feels that they have been earned. Accordingly, the narcissist must put the extra miles in, in terms of seduction to ensnare the Super Empath.

    “The empath and co-dependent are easier to “break” in terms of causing negative fuel to flow. The Super Empath is made of sterner material and will resist the negative machinations of the narcissist at first.

    “… being made of sterner stuff, their descent towards numbness and malfunction is far slower than that of the empath. The Super Empath will keep providing the fuel but deteriorates at a slower rate.

    “The risk factor however with a Super Empath is that their own personal integrity is greater than the empath’s and very much greater than that of the co-dependent and consequently of all these three classes of empath, the Super Empath is the one more likely to make a bid for escape and thus leave the narcissist with a cessation problem.”

    The Super Empath it seems comes from a position of strength, requires the narcissist to earn her affection and is made of sterner material in response to the narcissist and their machinations. What struck me was the element of personal integrity, meaning they are the most likely to make a bid for escape. I imagine the closest any empath will come to breaking a narcissist is by creating a fuel crisis and it seems the Super Empath has the ability to do this.

    1. WhoCares says:


      Thank-you for this comment. It is an excellent little summary.

      I also see how it applies personally, as I have an element of SE and did manage to escape.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        No problem, WhoCares 🙂 I know it helped me to untangle some of my own thinking around it.

        I also have a minority SE and think the comment on personal integrity was the one that struck home with me. I’ve read the article before, but hadn’t quite taken that part in. I’d say that element of integrity (strong on justice) alongside my narc trait of pride sealed the deal for me. A combination of narcissistic and empathic traits got me out of both my narcissistic relationships. But I’m sure my SE came to the fore as otherwise my CoD would have kept me there much longer.

        And I’m delighted again to hear about your escape <3 It always helps to get a reminder of the fact we got out and have stayed out x

        1. WhoCares says:


          I know what you mean regarding the comment on personal integrity – as I had the same reaction. It is so interesting to piece it all together, since I can now begin to see exactly where I stood my ground and decided I had had enough. And I totally get what you’re saying re: the CoD element; I have a slice of codependent as well.

          I also begin to see where, in my legal matter, my SE has come to the fore – which has both got me in trouble at times, AND scored wins.

          “And I’m delighted again to hear about your escape ❤ It always helps to get a reminder of the fact we got out and have stayed out x”

          Yes, we did get out – and stayed out. So glad to know that is the case for you as well. 😃💜

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ha, I can totally relate to the SE getting you into trouble, WC, and also helping you to score wins! Which comes down to you standing your ground and is the natural result of deciding you’ve had enough. I think when you come to that conclusion there’s no going back for the most part.

            So interested to see you also have a slice of CoD … I find that a confusing combination, but I think I’m beginning to understand how they might work in tandem.

            It’s a fascinating exercise to apply the understanding we have now to our relationships and see how our various schools and cadres have influenced us xox

          2. WhoCares says:


            “So interested to see you also have a slice of CoD … I find that a confusing combination, but I think I’m beginning to understand how they might work in tandem.”

            I have been thinking about this too. I think that in some isolated areas of behaviour I can be a bit Codependent-ish and in other areas, I stand my ground. If I think of a good example to illustrate, I’ll follow up with it.

        2. WhoCares says:


          “The empath and co-dependent are easier to “break” in terms of causing negative fuel to flow. The Super Empath is made of sterner material and will resist the negative machinations of the narcissist at first.”

          I note this was key in my relationship. He had such trouble getting me to argue in effort to provoke negative fuel – mostly because there was a child involved for the last half of the relationship. And I refused to argue with him because I wouldn’t do that in front of, or around my child, because I grew up with my parents arguing all the time and know from experience how painful that was for me, as a child.

          Thank-you so much for this conversation ♥️

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I would say the Empaths and the CoDs are MUCH more giving. When the Narc wants to draw negative fuel from us, we may fight back, provide challenge fuel or even wound. The CoDs and Empaths are more willing to take the blame on themselves, they question themselves, when Narcy blame shifts, the Supers fight back or remove themselves from the situation and think “kiss my ass”. When the Narc comes up with “Your fault”, the CoD and other Empaths may say “I´m sorry” while the Super says “BULLSHIT”. 😉

          2. WhoCares says:


            I see what you are saying.

            “I would say the Empaths and the CoDs are MUCH more giving. ”

            I am not sure; HG says that SE’s have very strong empathic traits – but the narcissist has to work harder to gain her trust and the expression of these traits.

            “The CoDs and Empaths are more willing to take the blame on themselves, they question themselves”

            Possibly, but I think that this depends upon the cadre(s) of a particular empath.

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I have no idea, I was just guessing. From what I read so far it SEEMS to me that Empaths and CoDs are way more giving because the Super comes to a point, where enough is enough, goes Supernova and/or escapes. Of course we are giving and yes, very strong in empathic traits but don´t forget about the strong narcissistic traits! 😉 After a while of giving and helping it´s just enough! Especially when we get abused, NO! ENOUGH! Not with me! I´m too proud!

            It my depend on the cadre? I´m Super Carrier.

            Hard to say, because as Alexis (I think) pointed out, that we are not the narcs first choice anyway, because they struggle a lot to control us, because of our strong narcissistic traits.

            I´m sure our Sensei has the answer 🙂

          4. WhoCares says:


            “Of course we are giving and yes, very strong in empathic traits but don´t forget about the strong narcissistic traits! 😉 After a while of giving and helping it´s just enough! Especially when we get abused, NO! ENOUGH! Not with me! I´m too proud!”


            My guess is, as well, that where the SE’s sense of personal integrity has been dented, the anger burns brighter for the SE but she does not necessarily act on it in an outward manner. Although she might…she eventually just ditches the narc.

          5. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Oh yes! The anger burns horribly. The Supernova actually starts in my case with a burning anger! It´s really burning!! Either you fight back aggressively or in a passive-aggressive way (Silent Treatment f.e.) or you just ditch the narc, yes. That´s absolutely correct!

          6. WhoCares says:


            I agree; the anger is burning. But I never used mine to lash out directly or verbally at my ex – I used it to power me to expose the truth. Aside from that, a lot of my anger was felt towards myself, for allowing things to get to the state they had reached. And then I directed that anger and energy towards setting things right.

          7. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I did lash out aggressively, even with physical violence, but this is long time ago. 🙂 I normally lash out verbally or caught myself being highly passive-aggressive. I mostly used triangulation and digging up the past. I used to wait until the right moment for revenge and then threw the digging up the past right into their faces: “This is for ……what you did to me ..”

          8. WhoCares says:

            “I mostly used triangulation and digging up the past. I used to wait until the right moment for revenge and then threw the digging up the past right into their faces: “This is for ……what you did to me ..”

            I see, Leela – another good illustration. I am unlikely to do this, if I do so, it is to establish the past behaviour as a fact, but not literally to through it in the narcissist’s face. But then again, this is partly due to the fact that I have some Martyr in my cadre and have a tendency to self-blame for past problems.

          9. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Interesting! I have 0 % Martyr, totally missing. Magnet is totally missing as well: 0 %.

          10. WhoCares says:

            I should clarify, as the anger did not power me to expose my ex – it powered me to leave and protect my child (legally speaking) which, in turn, caused the exposure of my narcississt ex.

          11. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Experienced that too. The anger lead me to escape but not before a decent lash-out at the narc 😉 I have significant Geyser minority traits. They show! 😉 😀

          12. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you for the illustrations of your behaviour Leela, it truely helps me understand. I see how the Geyser element plays out with your SE.
            Comparatively, I have zero Geyser. When someone has done me a wrong, I am less likely to vocalize or air my complaints. For example, if I receive poor service or have a complaint at a retail or restaurant establishment, I can’t really see me reaching to put a complaint on record or draw attention to the issue – I would just resolve to take my business elsewhere next time.
            It would be a rare occurrence for me to air my grievance; I would be more likely to simply walk out of the establishment.

          13. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Hahahahaha! 😀 Oh yes! The Geyser shows 😉 😀

          14. A Victor says:

            When mine shows I always think, “Damn Geyser.” Haha!

          15. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Think positive! Think “YAY FOR GEYSER!” 😉 Sometimes it´s really Hip Hip Hurray for Geyser! 😉 😀

          16. A Victor says:

            Haha!! I love Geyser in other people!! Just not in myself, unless I am in a situation where I feel absolutely safe. The Geyser part of me goes against my introverted nature so when it slips out unexpectedly, I can feel very exposed in certain settings. It doesn’t happen often, my Geyser is insignificant minor. For those of you who have more of it, it’s nice to see!

          17. leelasfuelstinks says:

            How boring would I be without significant Geyser minority? Carrier! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

          18. A Victor says:

            Leela, I probably am boring! Lol, but I’m okay with that! Funny comment, you made me laugh!!

          19. leelasfuelstinks says:

            In fact, I was a bit dissapointed first, when EDC came back and I found out that I´m Carrier 😀 I thought “boring” 😀 But I learned the positive sides of being a Carrier. I can deal very well with difficult customers, I stay calm in a difficult situation and try to solve the problem, I can deal very well with difficult people, I have patience, I can calm people down when their emotions get out of control. So: not bad! 😉

          20. A Victor says:

            I think Carriers are awesome, my Carrier has helped me through a lot! But, Savior surprised me and I’m still trying to sort it out. Carrier is much more defined, shouldering things, very clear. Geyser pops out, again, clear. Savior, not so much, but at 60+ percent it has to be doing something. Your idea of seeing the upsides and putting them to good use is a good one!

          21. leelasfuelstinks says:

            60+ percent Carrier. Yes, it shows and it helps a lot at work. My success in fact comes from being a Carrier. While others freak out, loose their nerves, can´t deal with a certain client, I´m happy to take on the challenge. 😉 Shouldn´t whine about being a Carrier. 😀 😉

          22. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ha, I like your comment, Leela. it’s a good comparison and I can relate to “kiss my ass” and “BULLSHIT” when it comes to responding to the narc. How a combination of CoD and SE work together is what I’m trying to work out as it seems like a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde situation. Maybe one day willing to suck it up and another day not? Maybe one day say “I’m sorry” and another shout “BULLSHIT!”. I know there are times when I’d want to shout B/S and suck it up instead. LOL. I’m like Steve Martin in that movie “Half of Me” 😛 The narc would be wondering which half he is going to get today! I suppose it’s all good fuel for him either way. But, on a more serious note you have the certainty of one who has a very high percentage of SE. You give a good overview of how the situation might play out differently with an SE and the narcissist. Thanks!

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oops! That should have been “All of Me”


          24. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Same here! Very strong empathic traits, very strong narcissitic traits. NOW WHAT? 😀 😉 It´s indeed like being Dr. Jekyll and Mr.Hyde. 😀 H.G. mentioned in one his videos that the Super Emp fights back earlier than the other Empaths. Maybe you´re something in the middle, you fight back later than the Super Emp but BEFORE it comes to a Cliff Fightback? 🙂

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            Now what indeed, Leela 😛 I do recall being willing to question much earlier and confront the narc/s, knowing when something was B/S. So, I’d call them out, but maybe accepted their explanations more easily as they applied either threat or charm (with lots of word salad, etc. in between!) Going to be pondering this one for a while 😉

            I still haven’t read about the Cliff Fightback, but I have the book where it features so I will do that asap. Thanks for the reminder, Leela.

          26. leelasfuelstinks says:

            H.G. made a video in Youtube about that. Supernova vs Cliff Fightback. 🙂

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’m going to look it up 🙂

          28. lickemtomorrow says:

            I have read this piece now and can say I have never experienced a Cliff Fightback.

            I have experienced an empathic Supernova with the ending of my last relationship.

          29. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Never experienced Cliff Fightback either. I did not fight back when Patri Narc abused me and could not escape. I knew, if I fight back and lash out at my Upper Mid Range Patri Narc he would immediately blame shift! So I turned to highly passive aggressive methods: lying, cheating, tricking, withdrawing, just not caring what that Upper Mid Range Somatic has to say, or saying “yes yes” and thinking “kiss my ass I do it anyway in secret”. Saying “Yes, I do it” and then not doing it, bringing up lame excuses why I did not do what Patri Narc wanted, doing thinks which Patri Narc didn´t like in secret: Things like that 🙂

          30. lickemtomorrow says:

            Rebel with a cause! That’s what I thought when reading that Leela 🙂 You did what you had to do aligned with your empathic nature which had the added bonus of the SE to help you. Basically, you went ‘underground’. And that’s how you survived. It’s where I can see the benefit of the more narcissistic traits come into play. I hate that you went through that Leela, but I can also see the strength you’ve taken from it. Glad you made it through the tough times and even more glad you found your way here <3. You're an inspiration!

          31. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Perfectly analysed, LET! Exactly! I went “underground” and my narcissistic traits saved my sanity! That´s how I must have been created?

          32. lickemtomorrow says:

            🙂 It sounds like your narcissist parent had a lot to do with the elevation of those narcissistic traits, Leela, which I imagine combined with your particular empathic nature to bring you out on the other side.

            But only the expert (HG) can give us the real insight as these are his categories and I am, as always, beholden to him for creating them for the purpose of our understanding <3

          33. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I heard that most (or even all?) Super Empaths are ACONS. Our Sensei will explain! 🙂

          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’ll look forward to that when Sensei has time 🙂

          35. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Me too!! H.Geeeeee??? PLEEEEEAAAASE?! 🙂 🙂

          36. lickemtomorrow says:

            So glad you were able to take something out of it, WC, and I see we’ve all found a different focus for our SE traits. I’m so glad you were able to give an example of how the SE can be hard to break. Arguments can be so easy to provoke and we know the narcissist likes to provoke as well.

            Children will cause you to think differently at times as you put them first and consider the impact of things on them. I also grew up in a hostile environment, so I can totally relate to your perspective on not wanting your child to have to experience the same thing. It was definitely my children that were the impetus for me to get me out of my marriage.

            Thank you for adding to the conversation <3

          37. WhoCares says:

            “Children will cause you to think differently at times as you put them first and consider the impact of things on them”

            So true.

          38. Truthseeker6157 says:


            The SE and CoD elements do appear to be a contradiction in terms. The best guess I have is this.

            Assume CoD with significant SE minority. What if this means for example. The CoD is the lead school so, they are content for their partner to take the lead. They would perhaps sacrifice their career aspirations for those of their partner, if they felt he was brighter, likely to be more successful etc. They might go along with a house move they weren’t all that happy with, or a change in the kids schooling that their partner really wanted to make. They are happy in a supporting role if it furthers the family unit. They will make personal sacrifices for the partner / benefit of the family unit. Then, the partner has an affair, or, is suspected of an affair, he becomes distant, he starts to neglect his role within the family. She works for a time to resolve the problem but as things do not change the SE element kicks in and takes over at this point. Says no. Unacceptable. I’m done. The empath takes the decision to leave and doesn’t change her mind. That’s more how I see the two elements co existing CoD majority, SE minority.

            Flip it now, SE with significant CoD. Likely, very similar to the story above. The SE though, leaves sooner. Gives less benefit of the doubt. Her motivation is more,’ I did this for you. I sacrificed my career for you and moved to where I didn’t want to be for you. You are not keeping your side of the bargain. We’re done.’ She is perhaps more aware of what she gives. There is more ‘I’. She leaves when she feels the balance turn uneven, either before the affair, or, upon first suspecting. It absolutely is unforgivable to her, because she places more value on her own input into that unit than perhaps the CoD. Both leave, the SE with CoD minority just goes faster. Very similar, slightly different drivers.

          39. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey TS, thanks for adding your thoughts around that. I’m glad you agree the two seem opposite and you’ve given a good understanding about how that might play out.

            I put another comment up responding to AC where she mentioned the SE coming from a position of power, and I think you’ve been able to lock onto that with the example you give. Either way the SE comes into play, but the minority SE may be willing to stay in it longer as she tries to work things out and continues to sacrifice.

            I really do appreciate you thinking the one through as I’m sure a few people can see themselves in that role of the sacrificing partner (which I was) as a CoD.

          40. Truthseeker6157 says:


            In honesty, I’ve puzzled over it before. You know how I love the detectors! Both elements appear in my school make up too and I did get confused as to how they can exist side by side. It seems odd given the narcissistic traits of the Super. Looking at it differently from the perspective of empathic traits though, CoD and Super will score higher than other schools on empathic traits. Neck and neck almost.

            Empathic traits outweigh narcissistic traits in terms of our behaviour. All empaths are the same there as we know. Coming at it from this angle, Super and CoD will likely have similar strength governing traits. Looking at it from that side, they do look more like partner schools, or rather, the two schools together appears less of a contradiction. On a normal day, with no erosion of empathic traits, I bet in many ways the two schools would be hard to tell apart. Other than the Super likely ends up choosing the restaurant they both go to for lunch!

          41. A Victor says:

            TS, LET, Leela,
            Hi, I’m arriving late to this party so if this has been said and I missed it in a quick read of your comments, please disregard.

            -I have not experienced a Cliff Fightback or I misunderstand what it is.
            -I have moderate empathic traits and moderate low narcissistic traits, which being lower to begin with means much lower, I assume. I am majority Standard so this fits with that.
            -I think the difference for Supers and CoDs is the motivation, one coming from a place of power and one coming from a need to please place. I can see how these can coexist in one person though I would think one would be dominant.

            I look forward to reading this thread more thoroughly after work.

          42. lickemtomorrow says:

            Wow, that’s interesting, TS! Now I can see why I’ve felt we had so much in common in the past 🙂 Sharing schools is bound to have an influence and now I’m wondering if you have any more to add to that. I have an insignificant minority Standard. Are you majority SE? That would be awesome! There seem to be very few around. A bit like the Greater Narc.

            So interesting to read that CoD and Super score higher on empathic traits. I didn’t realize that and I’m guessing you mean compared to other schools. The Super, of course, must score very high on narcissistic traits as well which I do and was surprised at 😛

            I’m wondering what you mean by “strength governing traits”. I think I need to understand that a little better to know how the two schools are less of a contradiction.

            I’ll let you choose the restaurant 😉

          43. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I see what you mean with that sentence. ‘CoD and SE likely have similar strength governing traits.’ Meaning, given both schools have high empathic traits and empathic traits hold narcissistic traits in place, then a CoD and SE likely behave similarly in a non stressful situation with no empathy erosion in place. With their governing empathic traits being similar strength, It’s only under stress I think that the differences might show more.

            We are very very similar LET x
            School : SE. Significant minorities CoD and Contagion (equal part)
            Cadre: Saviour. Significant Magnet, insignificant Carrier and Martyr, zero Geyser.

            I rejected school at first. Various reasons. Firstly, I didn’t regard an online ensnarement as something a SE would tolerate. Secondly, I don’t identify with the kickassery of the SE as was the general perception around the time of the EDC. I don’t explode in anger. I didn’t see the Supernova as a blast of power or anger either. That’s not me. I draw in. I will attempt to fix, but then all of a sudden I just wake up and I’ve turned. All my emotion is drawn back in to myself and not sent out at all. I’ll calmly put things in place and then I go.

            So I don’t explode, I pull everything in. And that’s that. I have ended all my relationships in a similar way for differing reasons. The only exception was the online MMRB. I didn’t turn on him and I’ve lately figured out why. Therein lies the problem but that is being handled currently. I can manipulate when necessary and I do it very well. Not narc level perhaps, but similarly I would caution against underestimating me there! I manipulate in work. I manipulate when my back is against the wall. I rarely show anger but I will play a long game to settle a score.

            Over recent months, with more information and understanding, I can say that whilst I don’t necessarily fit the SE profile, I’d probably put myself there by default. Bit like the Mid Ranger ends up Mid Range. He’s definitely not Lesser, he’s not Greater, so by default, he’s Mid Range.

            HG’s original video ‘The Super Empath’ describes the CoD and SE in terms of being similar in their level of empathic traits. That’s where I got that information from. Still one of my favourite videos, though I do want to flick HG’s ears for him when I listen to parts of it ha ha!

          44. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, I see what you mean about the differences showing more under stress. That’s a good explanation. And I see from the breakdown we do have more in common than I realized. You have both Carrier and Contagion where I have neither. But the rest we share <3

            I can see how you would fit the SE profile perfectly going by your description and I think there are plenty of misunderstandings that can be applied. The explosion of anger is not a necessary part of a SE's response, but there will be an accounting from my perspective. Whether it's the empath simply walking away as you have described with the determination of her decision, or a Clash of the Titans in taking the narcissist to task via various manipulations. At some point she will stand her ground and let her narcissistic traits come to the fore as a means of self protection.

            And I think that's where she operates from a sense of power.

            I'm going to have to check up the Super Empath video again. And then wonder which are the parts that make you want to flick HGs ears 😛

          45. Truthseeker6157 says:


            This is just me hypothesising with the information we have been given so far. I know you know how I like to wander off and turn things over in my head. I wouldn’t want anyone to read my comments on this thread and assume I actually know the answers. I don’t ! Just trying to make sense of how things are as they are.
            There is no doubt though that the two of us linked in to each other as soon as we arrived x. That could be because of the schools and cadres we share or it could just be a connection formed because we just naturally click. Schools and cadres do illustrate our mindsets and behaviours though and in my humble empath opinion, they do so extremely well. I have to assume that plays a role.

          46. lickemtomorrow says:

            I love the way you reflect on things here 🙂 I do much the same, but probably in a different way and no doubt coming from a slightly different perspective. That is the beauty of our individuality x And you have a lovely gentle quality about you which shines through, including in your sense of humour. There’s some steel underneath, but I accept you save it for when it’s needed. We are very much as HG has decided <3

          47. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you LET, that means a lot to me x

            I’d far prefer to be seen for my empathic traits than for my narcissistic traits, though I do recognise they are there and they do serve a purpose. I even enjoy them from time to time, it can be quite freeing to indulge that side of my personality sometimes……

            “ The Super Empath is also a giverrr* (flick)
            “The challenge of unlocking both positive and negative fuel proves a challenge to the right type of narcissist because this allows him to assert his superiority.”
            “Uh huh” ( flick flick )

            Ha Ha!

          48. A Victor says:

            Laughing TS, very good!

          49. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ha! I see you’ve provided me with your ear flicking moments 😛

            Seems like the challenge doesn’t exist only on the part of the narcissist! The gauntlet has been thrown down! I’m going to have to check this out again.

            I also enjoy my narc traits from time to time and indulge that side of my nature simply because it’s crying out to be heard. Similar dimming of the empathic traits, but to indulge the ‘darker’ side and nothing to do with the narcissist. It’s one of the reasons I can relate to HG’s article on Malice, and maybe our conversation here is helping me to understand why. It’s been a mystery up to now. I’ve been so much more focused on my empathic traits. There’s a little narc underneath just waiting to get out 😉

          50. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Nothing wrong at all with embracing those traits from time to time. I’ve never really been concerned about my narcissistic traits. I’ve always kind of accepted that they’re there to do a job. I trust them in a way I suppose. It’s ok to stamp your foot occasionally to get what you want, it’s ok to say no to going somewhere when you’re expected. It’s ok to make a stand when you’re being taken for a ride, and sometimes, let’s face it, there are some real arses out there that just deserve a talking to! I don’t see traits as a muscle. (The more you use them the stronger they become.) I see them as a safety net more than anything else. They stop me being taken advantage of, sometimes they safeguard my sanity! I can have my rant and feel better. Rant over, no sulking, normal service resumed! I’d say embrace them LET, if you’re feeling angry or frustrated, you’re likely feeling that way for a very valid reason.

          51. A Victor says:

            Wow TS, this is a great way of looking at the traits. We don’t need to “exercise” them but be aware of their presence and be willing to use them when they present, or at least consciously assess whether or not to. Thank you! Very helpful!

    2. A Victor says:

      Hi LET, thank you for putting this here. “…they are initially attracted to the apparent emotional output of the narcissist…” is one phrase that jumped out at me accurate for me when I first read this a while back. Also the idea of people earning my traits, not just handing them over. I also believe my personal integrity is pretty high, I have ended 3 out of 4 significant romantic relationships and many friendships when there have been issues of pushing my values. I have stronger Standard parts though in other ways. This has given me a new perspective, I had been thinking in percentages but it might be more a matter of parts, at least in some things or in different people. I apologize if that is confusing, thinking off the top of my head. Thankyou again.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        No problem, AV, and I know it helped me to pull out a couple of the more significant thoughts HG shared to get a handle on the SE and that aspect of my empathic nature.

        I was surprised to read about the “emotional” output of the narcissist in the sense of the SE being drawn to them. I often think “charisma” rather than “emotion”, but either way it’s the narcissist’s cognitive empathy coming into play. Once again, they can be so convincing.

        I’ve also got a new perspective after focusing on certain aspects of the SE. What I’m not sure of is how that and my CoD work in tandem with eachother. The two seem to be polar opposites. Maybe I fall in easily, but fight my way out hard.

        I’m not sure what HG would have to say about the percentages vs the parts, but I would guess the parts can all come into play at different times while our percentages indicate what will lead for the most part.

        And your comment wasn’t confusing at all, AV 🙂 I’m constantly thinking off the top of my head here! It’s very spontaneous! xox

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          “Maybe I fall in easily, but fight my way out hard”

          Good point, LET! May I ask which cadre/s you are?

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, Leela.

            I am Saviour (majority), Magnet (strong minority) and Martyr (insignificant minority)

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Cool. I only have little Savoir traits 🙁 Would love to have more. And 0 % Magnet 🙁 Would love to have some Magnet-traits but completely missing. Seems like I just carry everything or erupt 😀

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Carry everything as in being a Carrier, Leela? I have no Carrier or Geyser according to my EDT. Maybe you carry until you erupt? That sounds like what could happen just like a volcano! I can see plenty of fuel flowing from that. The narcissist prodding and poking until they finally provoke a reaction in order to hit the motherlode :O

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            “I can see plenty of fuel flowing from that”
            Thank you! 😀 LOL, had to laugh 😀

            Yes, being a Carrier, carrying, being brave, staying strong, not breaking until the narcissist goes too far and then erupting, lashing out, starting normally with a loud “FUCK YOU”! 😀 and a “nice punishment” for the narcissist like Silent Treatment. Further carrying it, until it´s time for a good revenge with digging up the past 😉

          5. Leigh says:

            Leela, I carry until I erupt too.

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You´re also Carrier cadre? 🙂

          7. Leigh says:

            Leela, I’m triple hybrid, 33% each carrier, geyser & savior. Standard with strong Super

          8. leelasfuelstinks says:

            We are pretty similar. 🙂
            I´m mostly Super, the rest Standard, over 60 % Carrier, something like 20 % Geyser and around 15 % Savoir.

          9. Leigh says:

            LET says, “Maybe you carry until you erupt? That sounds like what could happen just like a volcano! I can see plenty of fuel flowing from that. The narcissist prodding and poking until they finally provoke a reaction in order to hit the motherlode.”

            I know you’re talking about Leela here and I apologize for sneaking into the conversation. This is exactly the dynamic for me and my husband. Then I have 33% savior too. The savior wants to “save it or fix it”.

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            Please don’t apologize, Leigh <3 You're welcome to join in, and as I have no Carrier I'm just gaining a little bit of insight now as to how that might play out with the SE added. It's such an interesting dynamic and must be painful at times to be pushed to your limits which is where the Cliff Fightback might come in. It actually sounds quite exhausting. And then your Saviour has to find the energy to help pick up the pieces again. I am majority Saviour, so I know all about coming to the rescue and trying to put things to rights. I'm really in awe of some of our empath cadres and how they 'maintain' in spite of all the odds stacked against them. You really are amazing! xox

          11. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You´re very welcome to discuss, Leigh! 🙂 Interesting about your Savoir traits. I don´t have enough of them for wanting to “save and fix” it. People with NPD cannot be helped. Unfortunately! 🙁 NPD is formed in early childhood and then, with H.G.´s words: “The cake is baked”. It´s over! When NPD is readily formed, there´s nothing we can do. Therapy can improve a bit, but there´s no “saving and fixing” it. The “saving and fixing” would have been to take away the child from the toxic parent(s) and put it into a loving, caring family. But as soon as NPD is formed, there´s nothing we can do for them, except for protecting ourselves. We can only save ourselves, save our sanity, either by GOSO or like I did it as child by becoming a Super Emp.

          12. A Victor says:

            Leela, or becoming an emp of any kind. I had two narcissists for parents but only have a very strong super element, not majority. And I believe that was born in me, thus allowing it to be that percentage. I wonder if my parents had been different and encouraged it if it would have formed to be dominant. I also believe it is the element that saved me in some ways though.

          13. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Even both parents? Oh dear, I´m sorry to hear that. 🙁 So many ACONs here, wow! Even our Sensei is an ACON. I actually would love to know about the psychology of ACONs. Nobody comes out of a narc-family without damage. 🙁

          14. A Victor says:

            It wasn’t fun. It did leave me a mess also, more than I knew. The psychology? That would be something to know, scary almost and so, so sad. Being here I am beginning to figure things out, thank God. I only wish it would’ve been sooner, so much wasted time and so much living in a state of not understanding so many things. But, better late than never. You know, one of the saddest things for me is that try as I might, and I did, there was absolutely no way to come to understand until learning about narcissism. I can’t believe it is not better known, due to the damage it leaves in it’s wake, for both the narcissist and their victims.

          15. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Same here, sister! I know, being an ACON is not fun at all. I suffered a lot, too, like every ACON. And there´s always that feeling of “not being good enough”. Never good enough!

          16. A Victor says:

            It is good that we can learn and heal. And know that we are good enough.

          17. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Well, AV, that´s what I´m still about to learn. 🙁 You know too well, how hard it is being an ACON and how much he must learn and work on ourselves. I´ve made great progresses thanks to H.G. but still a a long way ahead of me. We carry wounds that probably will never heal but we can improve to the maximum and that´s my goal. I know I´m not going to undo the damage from being an ACON but I would at least like to stop the pain and finally feel “good enough”! 🙂

          18. A Victor says:

            Same, I hope to find a way to either put my scars to good use or at least learn to work around them effectively. I worry that my pain won’t stop completely as long as my mother lives. It can never be put to rest, none of the options available to me allow for that. And, as I said somewhere else today, I expect she will outlive me just owing to her ornery-ness. I will then be a person who spent an entire life in the grips of narcissism. What a dreadful thought.

          19. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Almost the same here but I´m learning to see the positive side of it, even though it hurts. But of some things I´m proud. I can recommend to consult with H.G. about that. He helped me a lot! It was extremely relieving, someone who 100 % understands what you´re talking about, someone who 100 % understands your psychological trash. I try to apply what H.G. told me, it´s still a long way but work in progress, it´s so much better now. 😉 Do not let your narc-parent “win”. Don´t!

          20. A Victor says:

            The consult idea has come up more than once in the last couple of days. In the works and more ideas about where it needs to go maybe. Thank you, my psychological trash is on it’s way to the dump asap! 🙂

          21. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I dumped it on H.G 😉 He´s a wonderful mentor!

          22. A Victor says:

            Hmmm, not quite sure how to do that, yet anyway. Maybe it will get there. I was just thinking of finding out ways to dump it…somewhere??? Lol!

          23. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I treated H.G. like a “psychotherapist”, I told him what the problem is, told him my story, asked questions, everything very normal. I informed H.G before the consultation what I would like to talk about and why. At the beginning I peed in my pants with fear 😀 not because of NPD but because of the ASPD (Psychopath). But it turned out that this can be a great advantage and you can “dump your waste” on him 😉 H.G. is very understanding, empathic and charming. For me it was extremely relieving!

          24. HG Tudor says:

            I am not empathic, I am professional, it is important to remember that. I am pleased, but unsurprised that you found the consultation very helpful.

          25. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You have GREAT cognitive empathy, H.G. That´s what I meant. 🙂

          26. HG Tudor says:

            On that we are agreed.

          27. A Victor says:

            Thank you Leela. I have had one consult already but it wasn’t too deep, I can’t just jump into something like that so fast. These things I am sorting through are so deep seated that I honestly expected to cry the entire time, not from fear but from the depth of the emotion and the emotional content involved. But I did not cry the WHOLE time, just a little bit, haha, so think I can probably do a bit of the more challenging stuff the next time. And also of course, coming to understand that HG is very easy to talk to, always professional and there is no judgment, that all helps a lot too. I will consider your idea of “dumping”, certain he can handle it, just not certain I know how to do that. Thank you for the suggestion!!

          28. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I carefully prepared before the consultation. I wrote down everything I want to talk about and ask, further, I told H.G. in advance, what the topic of our consultation will be, so H.G. and I could have a very structured and analytic consultation. (Hurray for Carrier 😉 ).

          29. A Victor says:

            I had a huge list of questions and topics and I thought, “Is this enough to fill an hour?” Hahaha!!! I needn’t have worried, it was enough!! More questions came as the conversation progressed and we ended with most of my questions still waiting. But, I have listened to the recording a number of times and learned more each time. I tend to be one who meanders, maybe that’s a Savior thing, but I always figure whatever happens is what was meant to happen. Also, this time I will have a few topics I think and kind of let him just go on those. Anyway, thank you for the encouragement and the suggestions, my Carrier is why I wrote anything down, probably! That’s the part of me that keeps me going forward! Haha!! But sometimes it irritates me because I’d rather go sideways!! Have a good day!

            PS- I would not have guessed that English isn’t your first language, you’re very good at it.

          30. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Oh thank you very much! English is indeed not my native language. 🙂

            But was the same here: Wrote tons of things down and then quickly had to set priorities, so that I could discuss the most important things with H:G. 🙂

          31. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Urm excuse me, I think I said that wrong with the “psychological trash”, I´m not native English speaker. 😀

            I meant: The “pschological trash” we CARRY as ACONS. 😀 😀 We can talk about that with H.G. – I did it and it felt wonderful.

          32. A Victor says:

            Leigh, thank you for the “save it or fix it” description. I am so struggling with what exactly the Savior does, how it manifests. I think it’s a case of can’t see the trees for the forest, intentionally backward, as I think it’s so intrinsically “me” that I can’t see it to distinguish it. Every little bit helps and sometimes there is a lightbulb moment! 🙂

          33. Leigh says:

            LET, thank you for your kind words. I think you are pretty amazing too. I’m so happy I found this place!

          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            Your welcome 🙂 and thank you, Leigh xox

          35. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Saviour is my lead cadre. I would totally agree. I use Magnet more often though. It stands to reason, there isn’t always someone to save! There’s always someone to talk to though! Ha ha. What I would say though, is that without doubt the Saviour would over ride my Magnet in certain situations. The desire to save is there all the time. In fact, as odd as it sounds, if I am not saving I actively look for someone to save.

            It can be silly things. Take an online game I play. I run a team of 50. Magnet recruits new players, chats, laughs, entertains and jokes. I have 48 male players. And they all stick to my game plan. They are from all walks of life. Some are builders joiners, teachers, some are heads of Marketing or Sales. Bright guys. I don’t take any sniping, moaning, or dick swinging. The guys love it if an idiot wanders in and starts mouthing off. I skin them. I have a sharp tongue and am very sarcastic. ( talking about an outlet for my narcissistic side!)

            On the other hand, some of these guys have been with me for years in game. They have confided about divorces, loss of a parent, failed relationships, kids, all sorts. Saviour is in full flow and these grown men will actively seek me out to talk. It’s not that I’m the font of all knowledge, I’m not. Sometimes it’s just they need someone to listen as they order things for themselves. Sometimes it’s tougher. I had one player who self harmed. No one knew, hysterically funny in game but beneath it all he was screaming. He is well now. It took over a yr of me making myself available day and night. He has a steady job now, recently bought his first house, sees his son again, stable, doing well.

            A Saviour will tend to find someone to save. Sometimes in the strangest of places and strangest of ways.

          36. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Sounds wonderful, TS.

            “They have confided about divorces, loss of a parent, failed relationships, kids, all sorts. Saviour is in full flow and these grown men will actively seek me out to talk.”

            Cool trait of yours! I suck at that one! I don´t know what to say, but I mostly know what to DO about it 😉 I offer practical solutions but actually for me this would be very awkward situation.

            “He is well now. It took over a yr of me making myself available day and night. He has a steady job now, recently bought his first house, sees his son again, stable, doing well.”

            Okay, I envy you. 😉 As I said: Awkward situation for me.

          37. A Victor says:

            Thank you for your comment, it is interesting. While I would enjoy the interactions with the men in general, I would pull back on the listening and I almost never give advice unless asked directly for it, here I may a bit but not in other spheres, it is a sensitive topic for me. If I do give advice, I watch to see action from the person before giving more. It doesn’t have to be the action I suggested, but something to indicate they’re willing to do the work, pulling someone along is not my style. A year, I give you a lot of credit! I’m more of a “hit and run” sort of savior, I guess! Glad to hear he’s doing well, that you were able to help him. I will keep your comment in mind as I sort through the Savior thing, maybe I do it more than I’m aware.

          38. Leigh says:

            AV, my savior comes out when I need to protect someone. It’s the only time I have a backbone. I can’t protect myself, I’m a scaredy cat. With my husband it manifests as me fixing and saving what I broke. Remember, according to the narcissist, its our fault so I’m the one who had to fix it.

            NA, I believe my husband is a victim narcissist. I guess that’s why he’s never disengaged.

          39. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I am a scaredy cat as well. This is why the outbursts described as Supernova don’t fit for me, I do not relate to that. But I do believe that I had at least one, at the end of my marriage. It was extended, instinctive and for a defined purpose. It resulted in our divorce, ultimately.

            An interesting thing I’ve recently realized is that I was not afraid of my ex. Lived in fear of my mother and lived in a different kind of fear with regard to my dad, but not the ex. I once saw him get in someone’s face, another man who owed him money. I told him afterward that I was so glad to never have seen that and especially directed toward me, I had not known he had it in him. It made him happy that I noticed. But even given that, I was not afraid of him, oh, except one time when he was high on a combo of 5 drugs, that was a scary night, it was my wake up call and everything changed drastically after that. But I still wasn’t afraid of him, just him on drugs. Anyway, that has recently come to my mind and with some surprise. Thanks for letting me share it here.

          40. Leigh says:

            Hi AV. I’m not afraid of my husband either. I feel safe around him. If that makes sense. That’s the dissonance. I feel safe around him even though I probably shouldn’t.

            As for my parents, I wasn’t afraid of them either. The scaredy cat isn’t about physical pain or hurt. Its about not being good enough. Not feeling validated. Ironically, my parents validated me. They made me feel better than. I was the golden child. I still would get the shit kicked out of me or was neglected but for the most part, I was still the golden child. I was the smart one, the pretty one. My father would punch me whenever I challenged him. I wasn’t afraid of him though. I would often stand up to him. As for my mom, she’s a victim narcissist and just needs someone to take care of her and she knew I’m the only who was capable of doing it.

            I don’t know where the fear comes from. It debilitates me though.

          41. A Victor says:

            Hmm, I just wrote about a fear I have on another thread. We were not allowed to ask for anything. I still have tremendous fear of doing that. Also, as a child, I was terrified of my mother, once the abuse began. And she made us afraid of my father through what she said about him but it was all part of her control of us, not based on anything real. He was most mild but could do the worst ice-outs you’ve ever experienced. Those were horrible.

            I am glad you’re not afraid now. My ex made me feel safe in many ways too, when he was physically present.

            It is good to see you, I had noticed you were off for a few days, and was hoping all was well.

          42. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Ha ha, I’m sure you don’t suck at it at all! You probably just go about the similar problem in a different way. The end result would likely be the same.

            I do think men have it tougher in terms of dealing with problems and emotions. Women discuss with each other more openly I think. Not all, I don’t confide, but on the whole, women confide more than men. Men will say things aren’t going well, the friend will buy him a beer as a show of support, but they are less inclined to really talk in depth I think.

            Make the woman an empath in a group of men and it seems logical that they take the opportunity to get things straight in their heads. Just talk and organise their thoughts without necessarily expecting a solution.

          43. leelasfuelstinks says:

            TS, you´re absolutely right about the difference between women and men. 🙂 I take a totally different approach than a Savior or a Magnet. Let´s say someone who has a serious problem comes to me and talks about it. I switch off my empahty (YES, right!) and turn totally 100 % analytic. I ask the individual questions. Like: “Tell me, what happened then?” “How did you feel?” “How do you feel about it now?”, “What´s your biggest concern?” and all the time my brain is working on a practical solution how we can actively solve the problem. I use to say things like “Alright, let´s see what we can do about it” or “Okay, let me think about possible solutions”. Of course I say “I´m sorry what happened to you”, but in that very moment I´m looking for solutions. I usually find some and then come up with “Okay, so you´re problem is XX. How about doing XY?” and then I explain why this could help. So, I directly go to the helping-part and skip the talking and the comforting. 🙂 I switch off all my emotions in such situations and go directly to the practical help. 🙂 🙂 🙂

          44. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It’s interesting the distinction you make about listening and advising then waiting to see change before continuing. I think that’s the healthy way to do it. I am slightly different in that in many ways I don’t really think anyone is going to take my advice anyway ha ha!

            My mum was the other extreme. If she advised and I didn’t take the advice, it would be brought out against me at a later date. So with me, if I do offer advice ( often I listen and question more than advise) I don’t really look for any action in response. I’ll just carry on. Less healthy probably.

            This particular guy wasn’t taking his meds, wasn’t keeping doctors appointments etc. If he did have an appointment he lied to the doctor throughout. He lied on evaluation questionnaires. Really, the only person he talked to properly was me. Even then he lied to begin with. I’d say ‘You just lied. That’s fine, it’s obviously a sensitive point. I’d prefer it if you say ‘I don’t want to answer that.’ So that’s eventually how we went on. That was the deal. He had to be honest and so long as he was, then I would always answer.

            I do leave myself open to being conned. No doubt about it. If he had been a narcissist, then would I have known? I can guarantee he isn’t, but going forward, well none of us really know if we will be taken in again and in what context. I’m certainly better placed now than I was.

          45. A Victor says:

            I’ve no idea if it’s healthy or not but one thing that bugs me is people who won’t do the work to make a change, if they complain about something. Even if it’s a gradual change, if the general trajectory is up, it’s all good. I am a big believer in personal responsibility and owning your own stuff. Someone having a rough patch is understandable, but, I’ve known people who will suck you dry and not change a thing, just preferring to whine, I’m cold to that. Generally no one takes my advice either, one reason I don’t tend to share it.

            I think the reason I don’t listen is I’d rather do something fun. Especially if someone is down, that’s what they need, in my thinking-haha! I think this is a cop-out on having to listen, boring and I seriously might fall asleep! I know that sounds heartless and I feel kind of like a bad person right now but all this to say, I don’t see the Savior aspect, see what I mean? I mean, here, on the blog, it is different. And with good friends, who are good friends because they do own their stuff and take personal responsibility, we help each other. I’m talking about people that are peripheral. Time is very valuable to me, it probably stems from that.

            It sounds like you are very honest with the people you interact with, not putting up with much. That is a gift. Rather than walking away, as I might, you stay in the fight and actually effect change in people. That is admirable, I can’t do it without a massive amount of stress to myself.

            You are also aware. You could be taken in, maybe, but I bet you would see it much sooner and get out much quicker than before. I do envy your 48 guy interaction, lol, that sounds like fun!!

          46. A Victor says:

            There’s more to my previous comment, it has been weighing on my mind. I think cutting people off relates back to the ongoing boundary issues I have, and I’ve been feeling so guilty for not having compassion like you do. But now in thinking back on those specific situations, maybe I was dealing with narcissists who just wanted attention. I am a magnet for them, that much I do know. And they are draining, also a fact. And I do have compassion, so…? This has been confusing. Thank you for your thoughts. I am going to go reread the Savior article, maybe it will shed some light.

          47. Truthseeker6157 says:


            There’s nothing wrong with wanting some fun. You see that here too. We might be serious and have serious discussions and debate, but we still make room to be playful. People need to laugh even when they’re in the thick of it. Even in the thick of war, there are entertainers.

            Speaking of entertaining. Yes. 48 males in one place interacting as part of a team is incredibly entertaining. I might have had a rubbish day, and hop online to check how the team is doing and I’ll read an in depth discussion about something utterly ridiculous. I do sarcasm and intellectual humour but sometimes nothing beats a bit of childish boy humour, particularly during Covid lockdown.

          48. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leela,

            Ha ha, yes practicality not my strong point I’m afraid. I do have an element of Carrier but I think it gets drowned out by the other elements. I can be practical as regards my own problems. I’m very much, ‘Must have a plan. Have plan, good, stick to plan’. I like a routine, I’m tidy, organised, structured, never late etc. That’s where it ends thoughI think. As far as others go, I’m very emotion led. Contagion sharpens that side because I’m visualising and feeling what people are saying to me. The narc said I was unobservant. Not true, I’m just concentrating on different things.

          49. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I always have a plan, I have my exact daily schedule, each and every day. Work schedule: “Today I´m going to finish X and Y”, Sports schedule: Sports on Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday at XY o´clock, other hobbies: normally after XY o´clock, domestic chores: on Tuesday and Friday at XY o´clock. The clock is my friend. 😀
            Unfortunately I completely miss Contagion elements 🙁 one more 0 % result from EDC. 🙂

          50. A Victor says:

            Does this exact plan stem from you Super do you think, or personality aside from schools and cadres? Can we even separate those? I have routines, on an extremely limited level, and they are open to adjustment as needed, haha, making them not “routine” I suppose.

          51. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Very good question, AV! I think it comes from empathic- and the narcissistic traits. Both! Could come from the Carrier cadre but also from the narcissistic traits of pride and vanity.

          52. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Please don’t have this conversation weigh on your mind. Healthy boundaries is a good thing. If someone is taking and taking and just draining you through whining and doing the ‘woe is me’ thing without looking to improve a situation, then walking away is sensible. You are right, that doesn’t mean you don’t have compassion. Similarly, if you are in the thick of your own stuff then putting yourself first is necessary too. You have to keep well yourself or you are no good to anyone are you really?

            If another person had come along straight after the first guy I poured all that energy into, I’m not sure I would have done that a second time. I would have helped but I couldn’t have invested so much again so soon. I have my limits, we all do. Let’s not forget too, that when it comes to relationships I’ve shipped out without taking much damage. Not all of them can have been narcissists, maybe I should have worked harder, forgiven a bit more, maybe I was right to go each time. We can’t know. We just do what we can where we can for as long as we can I think.

            So don’t sit thinking you aren’t a good person for one second ! Each school, cadre and individual has their own drivers and limits. One can haul for ages in one situation and the other cuts loose, all kinds of differences and strengths in different situations with different people. I can be very quick to rule people out sometimes. That’s not all that compassionate either. It likely keeps me safe though. One guy friend of mine was scared of me at the start because I was so direct. So my honesty can be a bit raw at times too.

            I think as I’ve had my results since May / June ish I’ve just had time for them to settle. I’m quite accepting of myself these days, which is a nice place to be.

            I’d still like slightly thinner thighs and maybe a touch more boob, so if anyone could see their way to fixing that it would be much appreciated!

          53. leelasfuelstinks says:

            “If someone is taking and taking and just draining you through whining and doing the ‘woe is me’ thing without looking to improve a situation, ….”
            …then this is a damn good reason to explode and go Supernova!!!! My goodness, how such people make me ANGRY, you won´t believe it! How I hate that! Whining and whining and whining and not moving their asses to do something about the situation! Grrrrrrrr! Doesn´t even have to be a narcy Boo Hoo Pity Play. There are also plenty of non-narcs who whine and whine and don´t do anything about the problem. Oh no! They make me lash out! “THEN MOVE YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT” is usually my reaction 😀

            “I’d still like slightly thinner thighs and maybe a touch more boob, so if anyone could see their way to fixing that it would be much appreciated!”

            500 calorie deficit per day and sports at least 3 times per week. Can´t help with the boobs, you gotta call a doctor for that one 😉 😀

            I´m still working on reducing my body fat percentage below 20 %. 😀

          54. A Victor says:

            You and I agree on whiners, haha, but how we approach them is a bit different! Or rather how you approach and I evade! Haha!!

          55. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Aw yes! I enjoy a good lash-out. 😉 😀

          56. A Victor says:


            Haha, “slightly thinner thighs and maybe a touch more boob”, we all have something with regard to the external, I suppose! Very funny!

            Thank you for the reminder that it takes a bit of time for these things to settle. And of course, as soon as one thing does, another comes along!

            Thank you also for the encouragement. You are right, we are all different, with different strengths, weakness, histories and needs. I think having my children made me more firm in where my time is placed, had I allowed them to whine at me all the time, I would’ve been done in long ago. Also, they and my ex were top priority, so when others came along who I found to be draining, they had to go, it was just not possible to hold them up and keep my priorities in place. Of course, had my marriage been healthy, I would’ve had more reserve to give from, I am just now learning this.

            So, thank you! A theme in this comment, but well deserved, you have been very helpful to me!

          57. njfilly says:


            You outlined a problem you were seeking a solution for.

            Have a plastic surgeon suck the fat from your thighs and inject it into your boobs.

            There. Problem solved.

          58. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Ewwww! Needles and incisions and fat sucker uppers and yuck!

            (Ok, I’ll consider it thanks )

          59. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Hey, I tell you what: I give you the rest belly fat I got left and you put it into your boobs 😉 😀 It´s for free 😀 😀 😀

          60. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Ha ha, yes ruled by the clock. Totally. Yes to the fitness routine, although my gym has been closed since December and the weather has been vile for running. I was built for heat not cold! I have been hitting the mat 4/5 times a week though. Even if I have to drag myself there. Not as effective as the gym but better than nothing. Gyms here remain closed until April.

            I haven’t had my body fat percentage taken in a while, it was due to be taken in January. I actually delayed it so I could cut down for a week or two after Christmas before my trainer took it! Ha ha!

            My friend was the opposite, she would eat like she was going to the electric chair the week before and drink a pile of water before the first weigh in. Then she could show dramatic improvement for the second weight check! The opposite approach to me and the thinking behind it just made me laugh.

            Plans, obsession with the clock. So there is a little bit of Carrier hidden away in me then!

          61. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes. This strictly sticking to plans, the “rocking around the clock”, being organized, etc. is typical Carrier 😀 As I have no problems with cold weather, I did sports outside and some fitness indoor. Now, as the weather is okay here (no snow, no ice), there´s no reason not to go outside for sports 😉 😀 I´m the opposite of you. Despise hot weather, like it medium. Not too cold, not too hot. Heat? Belongs between the sheets 😉 😛 not for weather 😛 😀

          62. Truthseeker6157 says:


            “Hey, I’ll tell you what, I’ll give you the rest of the belly fat I got left…”

            Yes. Brilliant! Get it bottled up and shipped over! Ha ha!

            This thread has helped me get to know you a little better. I’ve really enjoyed your comments x

          63. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thank you very much, TS! I enjoy our discussion too. A lot! 🙂 <3

          64. BC30 says:

            @Leela and @AV you might get a kick out of this Geyser/SE story

            I was very upset with #2 and started sobbing and crying on the oversized settee in the hotel room; he was laying next to me. I was crying for some time, but he didn’t comfort me at all, no arm around me, no words of comfort. Nothing. Incredulous and furious.

            I leapt up and grabbed an oversized foam pool noodle (we were on holiday at the beach) and started wailing on him and cursing. He was so caught off guard that I got a couple good blows in and he looked scared for a moment, but come on it wasn’t a knife or anything! It was a pool noodle.

          65. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! That is hilarious BC30!! Thank you for sharing! I now understand a supernova a bit better!! Especially a Geyser version! Thank you!

          66. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Is it okay to laugh out loud? 😀 😀 Awesome! 😀

          67. leelasfuelstinks says:

            My reaction would be similar but more verbal. So, I´m crying, I´m hurt and Mr. N. Arc doesn´t react. Leela: “HEY! WHAT´s THAT BULLSHIT?” “HEY MISTER, I´m crying, HELLO?” “FUCK YOU!” “HEY ASSHOLE! Can´t you see that I´m in trouble or what? So WHAT THE FUCK?! HUH?!” “YOU ASSHOLE don´t even comfort me?! What kind of ASSHOLE you are? Huh?”

            And then you can be sure that I will grab some stuff and throw them at the wall and of course at him. 😀 😉

            Yay for Geyser! 😀

          68. BC30 says:

            Yup. There was a lot of that. He got fuel then.

            But things are different now. He doesn’t know me at all. He thinks he does. He doesn’t.

          69. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I had many of those moments with Patri Narc. I was around 9 or 10 years old and he had made me cry (again!) by putting me down, ignoring me, sitting there and sulking. He asserted control in a malign way. I screamed, I cried, I was in terrible pain. Patri Narc just sits there and sulks, while his own child is in agony, he´s slurping up all the negative fuel. He didn´t care! I hated him in that moment and I cried even more because I couldn´t believe how evil he is. I was devastated to realize that he didn´t give a shit about my pain, my agony, my tears. He just sat there and sulked! In silence! My mom and my grandma tried to help me and tried to talk to him. No chance. Sits and sulks! The incredible sulk!

          70. BC30 says:

            I’m really sorry you had to go through that. I cannot imagine. It was never about you, but I’m sure it was terrible. A child wouldn’t have understood anyhow. I’m so glad you have found out about Ns and also about how amazing you are like every single way around the world from here to Sunday. ❤️❤️❤️

          71. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thank you very much, BC. Well, that´s long time ago and history. Eventually, it´s not Patri Narcs fault. He developed that self-defense mechanism when he was a baby or a toddler. When he was a very young child, there was war (WW II). And now he´s an old man. There´s no reason to hold grudges but many reasons to work on our wounds as ACONs. We have no time machine, we cannot turn back time but we can make the best of what we are. We are the lucky ones! Other ACONs broke, became ill, became narcs, borderlines, whatever. We´re alive, we can cope, we are Emps. Let´s make the best out of it! 🙂

          72. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha, classic! Lucky for him you didn’t launch the octopus floaty at him too!! Xx

        2. BC30 says:

          @LET, Leela, Leigh

          Forgive me for interjecting, but this is a fascinating conversation. I’ve learned a bit more about everyone. I wonder if HG ever gets a chuckle out of our comments when they clearly reflect our traits.

          1. Leigh says:

            BC30, I often wonder what he thinks about our conversations also.

          2. A Victor says:

            Same, most men couldn’t handle it, he is special!

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            You’ve got all the “L’s” lined up BC30 🙂 and we’re here to interact, so I’m glad you shared your thoughts <3 I'm sure HG gets a chuckle at times to see how clearly we are displaying our traits and likely confirming his assessments. It's fascinating all round, for us as well. And there are times we find it hard to accept our 'categorization'. We've been here before, but I never wanted to be a CoD and was shocked to discover I was one :O I was prepared to despise myself! Knowing it meant I was an epic survivor turned the tables on that one for me. I can't believe I don't have any Geyser 🙁 I still cry at the drop of a hat. The beauty for me is I've now come to a greater understanding of myself and in the beginning I didn't even know I was an empath <3

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thank you! 🙂 And I´m sure he does and I hope Sensei gets some nice motivation kick to explain the creation of us Empaths and Super Empaths. 😉

            Please Sensei! *making puppy eyes* 😉 <3

          5. A Victor says:

            It has been fascinating to follow and fun to learn more about the various manifestations of the different mixes. Knowing your love of it, I always picture you in my mind writing up graphs and charts in your bubbly geyser way to somehow figure it all out, I hope if you do you will share what you learn!

          6. Kiki says:

            Hi Ladies
            Demi plié squats in a wide second position are incredible for tightening thighs.Nothing I ever tried gives same results.
            If you can go up onto the balls of your feet , heels off the floor .It’ really burns 🥵.Make sure to hold onto the back of a chair though for support.


          7. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I you tubed this so I understood it. (I’m OCD about form!) Never tried it before, will add it in to my workout. Thank you for the suggestion ! Xx

            (Thank you for allowing HG)

      2. Leigh says:

        AV, its good to be back. I’ve been super busy at work lately. Weekends are also tough because I’m running errands and taking care of the house. I try to squeeze in some time each day but to be honest, I also needed a little break. Sometimes my ET is very high and I’m being sensitive so I just need to take a step back. Sometimes I want to kick myself for being so whiny, lol.

        1. A Victor says:

          Leigh, I think the whiny times ebb and flow, tied to the ET I imagine. I understand that and the need for a break now and again, though I don’t think I’ve gone a whole day yet, just large parts of a day so far. The busyness will likely get worse soon as Covid eases and summer comes, I’m looking forward to it now but will face it a changed person, in a good way. Anyway, I’m glad all is well!

    3. Sarah says:

      Do you have a link to this article? Also, what is GOSO?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Get Out, Stay Out.

        1. SARAH says:

          Found the article, Thx, HG!

          I am pleased to say that that is exactly what I did: Went under an alias on social media, blocked my profile on linked in, Changed my phone number, moved and left no forwarding address, use a PO two towns away at my new one. This was before email so I didn’t have to worry about changing my email address. Best thing I ever did! I still cover my tracks. Even now, now that I’ve moved half a country away, I am thinking of changing my last name. And I’m learning to use a gun. May sound dramatic to some, but I know he would kill me if he could.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        Here you go, Sarah:

  13. Julie Petkovska says:

    if a super empath gets ensared, they have the capability to wound and remove themselves from the situation. They lower their emapthy, to where they couldn’t care less about the narcissists feelings so they see clarity which allows escape. They don’t pine, plead or beg as some other empaths.They say if you don’t meet me half way, I’m outta here.
    The super empath is far more capable of escape, doesn’t mean they don’t get hurt, they have empathy. They are more capable of leaving and cause wounding to the narcissist and they be off for periods of time. During this period they can gain insight to the manipulations….and make decisions about the relationship.

    Other cadres, take repeated beatings and can’t escape as they can’t raise their narcissistic traits enough to inflict some pain and give themselves a chance to leave, let go emotionally or go no contact.

    If you ask me the super empath is superior for those reasons.

    Someone with empathy and doesn’t control another, cannot beat someone with no empathy and who seeks to control. But they can live without them far easier..due to their ability to turn down their empathic traits.

    They are the ones who listen to their instincts. And will turn on them when they know something isn’t quite right.

    Continually smacking a narcissist down, can cause you pain. But that pain is greater if you are continually lied to and treated poorly and do nothing about it.

    1. leelasfuelstinks says:

      Wouldn´t say “superior”. We are WAY higher in narcissistic traits than the other schools of Empaths, that´s why we have a stronger self-defense. That´s why we usually escape earlier than other Empaths.

      1. Eternity says:

        Leela,i just listened to this and found it fascinating. I didn’t even know a Super Empath existed until I listened to this one.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Eternety, I didn´t know something like a “Super Empath” existed before I came here. 😀 When I came here, I didn´t even know what a “cerebral narcissist” is 😀 Patri Narc is a Somatic and besides I only knew the loud, dominant and haughty Somatics. I thought all narcs were like this… until I got ensnared in a non-intimate relationship by a Middle Mid Range Type A elite, who has more cerebral than somatic traits. Didn´t know what hit me! False Angel! NEVER thought that HE could be a narcissist – until I learned about the Middle Mid Rangers, the “Angels with Dirty Faces”.

          1. Eternity says:

            Leela, oh for sure I learned here a lot myself, all different categories of Narcissists, Empaths etc.
            Type A MMRN is better than a type B, haha
            Take care,xoxo

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Don´t know the type Bs but Type A false angel, dominantly cerebral was enough. Eeew!

          3. A Victor says:

            I barely knew what a narcissist was! Haha! It’s a whole new world!

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            That´s why we´re here. To learn! 🙂

          5. A Victor says:

            Leela, I was talking to a friend about what I’ve been learning and she said “Wow, you’ve learned a whole new language!”. It really is so alien at first!

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Oh yes! At the beginning it was extremely confusing and alien. like “WTF?” 😀 When I came here my ET was very high. Now, that it´s going down, I see the things now as they are. And I see people with a serious mental illness (DSM-V). That´s how I processed it in my brain: mentally ill people and it´s not their fault. I´m really sorry what happened to them when they were children. 🙁 But there´s nothing we can do about it. All we can do is protect ourselves. I forgave “my” narcs. All of them. Because I know, it was not like “buahahahha, I´m gonna abuse Leela” but their illness, their self-defense mechanism. It´s because they were treated horribly when they still were small children. I feel sorry, I feel compassion but there´s no healing, no fixing, no hope. There´s nothing but protecting ourselves and GOSO. Those people are damaged for life.

          7. A Victor says:

            Thank you for this Leela, I have much the same view.

      2. BC30 says:

        Leela, “The Supers fight back or remove themselves from the situation and think “kiss my ass”. For me it was only to some extent. I would give him space and take my space and go off on revenge adventures, if that makes sense. I think it’s what made me a great shelf “appliance.”

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          It absolutely makes sense. It´s hard for the narc to deal with a Super, especially for Lessers and Mid Rangers. I remember, for all “my” narcs, including Patri Narc, I was by far not compliant and not submissive enough. 😉

          1. A Victor says:

            Leela, I don’t know your current relationship status but have you had relationships with normals or empaths? Realizing everything is different with those, I’m just wondering if/how the Super aspect affect them?

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I´m married and faithful.

            Not sure about my husband: Empath or Normal? He´s at least not a Narc. Before I had two relationships, well what we consider as serious relationships, one with an Upper Lesser Type A Somatic and one with a Normal. Besides those relationships I was promiscuous by choice: not interested in any serious relationship. Had affairs and stuff 😉 one of them was with my first narc, I was shelf-IPSS. 🙂

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi Leela, I apologize, I didn’t mean to ask your history with regard to relationships, only how the schools and cadres affect relationships with normal and empaths. I asked you because I thought you had stated previously that you are now married, I assumed to a non-narc, and you seem very outward in your actions and reactions to things. So, I was just curious if you deal with normals and empaths in the same manner and how they respond if you do. Thank you for sharing but I do apologize for not being more clear about what I was asking.

            Oh, also, do you find your current relationship…not as exciting but perhaps more fulfilling? Is it a nice change? I assume so, since you’re still together, and I’ve heard it’s so, but it is not discussed much. Something to look forward to possibly. I have to get 6 months away from my mother first though and I don’t know when that will happen. I expect she will outlive me altogether because she is just that ornery.

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            All good! No need to apologize!

            “do you find your current relationship…not as exciting but perhaps more fulfilling? ”

            My current relationship is healthy! My narc-relationships were based on “daddy-issues”. It was about “proving daddy that I´m good enough” – typically ACON! My current relationship is REAL!

            A real healthy relationship develops slowly. That´s how it was with my husband. First, we were just friends and by time we found out that it´s more than just friendship. 🙂 It developed very slowly and we found out that we have REALLY a lot of things in common: hobbies, attitude, views, interests and even exactly the same education. 😀

            The love bombing of a narc is very intense, you´re on cloud 9. A healthy relationship begins way less intense, slowly but steadily. You grow together. 🙂 It´s not cloud 9 but it´s stable and you feel very salvaged. 🙂

            While with a narc it´s explosive and exciting cloud 9, in a healthy relationship you may be only on cloud 5 but cloud 5 feels smooth, comfy, very stable and relaxing. 🙂 You fall in love with a real man and not with yourself. 😉

          5. A Victor says:

            Thank you for this explanation, it sounds wonderful. Happy for you and hopeful for myself! I know, no hope allowed, but…someday… maybe…

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            My last relationship with the Middle Mid Ranger Type A Elite (dominantly Cerebral) was non-intimate.

    2. Rosann Potter Balbontin says:

      Yep, spot on.

  14. Kiki says:

    Excellent HG , I am playing your audios all day whilst cleaning my house .You made me laugh with the going nuts bit .I’m guilty 🥴
    The shrivelled walnut balled cowards , love that description of the mid ranger too


  15. Violetta says:

    He’s baaaaack.
    Happy happy
    Happy happy
    Joy Joy JOY

  16. Francine says:

    It’s amazing how many people misunderstand and still believe they can control the narcissist. As evidenced by the YouTube comments on this video. Yes you may win a battle but you will never win the war. Which actually means you’re going to lose most of the battles or the most important ones. I have found that narcissist will always disappoint you. and if every now and then they don’t disappoint you it’s just a setup for the big disappointment. To engage with the narcissists with the mindset that you are going to come up on top with your superhero cape blowing in the wind victorious is not logical. Not logical because it is not supported by the facts. Mr Spock would say “that is illogical captain.”what’s the definition of insanity doing the same thing thinking you’re going to get different results.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well stated.

    2. Empath007 says:

      It depends on perspective.
      Knowing there is no point in putting up a battle can be viewed as winning in itself.
      We know they want our reactions and emotions. If we give them none… then we win. We win in our own way in our own time.

      Silence is a powerful tool. When we use it correctly. We win.

  17. Alexissmith2016 says:

    I had to wait all day until I was able to finally listen to this.very good! Thank you HG. It makes so much sense. Another piece in the jigsaw.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  18. Witch says:

    On a serious note, there are many videos on YT now about the super empath and how the narcissist is afraid of them and can be beaten by them. Sometimes this also gets mixed up in religion (the super empath is blessed by god.)
    Then everyone in the comments says “yyyaasss this is me!” Some of them are narcs but some of them are also majority Standard Empaths with a significant vanity trait.
    Also some of these people; out of their narc addiction likes the idea of being a super because they feel they are the number one choice for the narcissist which makes them superior to other women (I say women because it is mostly women who make these kind of comments.)

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Yes, it boggles the mind to think that anyone could believe themselves superior in being an SE. Especially if the view is that they are the preferred target of an abuser. Some prize that is.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:


      Do you honestly think that the ‘abuser’s pick’ is a thing?

      I put it down to perceived general kickassery. The created image of a SE riding onto the battlefield in a knife rimmed alloy wheeled chariot firing poisoned darts out of her metal cone boob bra and brandishing a sword of justice, cloak flying out behind her with the wind blowing her hair in precisely the right direction.

      You don’t think it’s that?

      1. Witch says:

        I’ve ead comments that went something like:
        “Super empaths are the queens of empaths aren’t they HG?”

        “The golden period can last longer when the empath is connected to the divine feminine energy”

        In slang terms we refer to women like this as “pick me’s”

        I understand wanting to be a super empath for the warrior aspects, I don’t understand it for the “narcissists think I’m the best which makes me some kind of Demi-god by association” aspect

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          What is this divine feminine energy and where can I get some? I’m going on a run tomorrow.
          DFE, they should give it some vitamins, stick it in a can and charge extortionate amounts for it in Walmart.

          1. Witch says:

            Don’t ask me! I can’t find it… I’ve just been working from home in my dressing gown and answering the door to postmen with disheveled hair
            But I have a feeling that it can be found somewhere between denial and delusion

          2. WhoCares says:

            TS6157 & Witch – hahaha!

          3. Witch says:


            To be fair I don’t see these kind of comments constantly but when I do I think “please get it together because… HE’S STILL GONNA CHEAT SIS!!!” Longer golden period or not..super empath or not..
            My guy is busy searching for the divine femininity in between another woman’s legs…don’t play yourself!

        2. BC30 says:

          @Witch PREAH you are on fiyah! 🔥🔥🔥

      2. BC30 says:

        TS replying here since I can’t reply where you wrote it, but I really like your assessment of the Co-D/SE combo. I’ve flagged it. Thank you. Also, you wrote: “I don’t explode in anger.” You are also not a Geyser.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Not a single percent of Geyser. Not one single percent! I’d have liked a bit at least!

          I’m glad you liked reading my ideas, they are just ideas though. I could be miles off the mark, but it’s interesting to discuss 🙂 I love talking about the detectors too, I know you are the same! Xx

    3. MP says:

      Personally I think that Narc abuse survivors could believe themselves to be Super Empaths because surviving narcissistic abuse is absolutely not a walk in a park and you have to harness a lot of strength to overcome an experience like that and since the concept of a Super Empath denotes strength, it causes them to relate to it. I think that anyone who is able to survive narcissist abuse is definitely a super and not a lightweight.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey MP,

        That’s a good point too. People do have to be strong to come out the other side of narcissistic abuse. So it could be that plays a very real part in the announcement of being a SE.
        Also other websites and commenters have different definitions of what SE actually means. For example, the site I was on before finding the blog referred to a SE as being an empath who was aware. Equating to a Greater Narcissist idea but for empaths. So when I wandered in here I announced that I was a SE! I was classifying not by HG’s EDC but by terminology used elsewhere. There will be plenty of websites using differing criteria to describe a SE.

        As HG points out, I think a lot of the SE pronouncements come from Mid Rangers. Certainly the more kick ass themed comments are I think. There seem to be a number of Midrangers present on YouTube as far as I can tell. I love HG’s YouTube material but far prefer the blog as an environment to comment.

        1. Another Cat says:


          Yes I’ve learned to recognize them by their weird stare, and by the dramatic brief kickass bitesize comments, as you say.

          There are rather few Nonnarcs in the survivor community, I would say. The current majority are unaware narcs. I remember several empathic survivor youtubers who have now ceased their channels, due to different reasons. A steady favourite through the years is DSD. I also look at the people to whom HG has granted interviews. Probably not narcs!

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            Laughing at the weird stare comment. It isn’t only me who looks at pics then!

            I started out searching for answers about the narcissist which then led me to empaths. Mind journal did a 40 point check list which strangely, I found described many of my behaviours / feelings, Judith Orloff was another who I thought was good to a degree but a bit touchy feely for my taste. I prefer my information given to me straight, no surprise this place suits me then!

            YouTube, strange vibe in my view, still some genuine people there, don’t get me wrong, just not the warmth and security I feel from the blog. Even when I don’t necessarily share an opinion, I can still feel the sincerity of another blog commenter. YouTube feels more like showcasing rather than a desire to debate or understand another perspective.

        2. MP says:

          Hello TS. I believe that HG was the one who invented the term Super Empath. His Super Empath and Super Nova articles are fascinating and have triggered a lot of people to imagine and come up with their own interpretations on it. And I agree with you that if someone reads or watch those other interpretations first, naturally those interpretations or criteria are the one applied in evaluating themselves.

          When I was new here I first identified as a Magnet Super Empath. I felt ashamed after reading comments by some regular commenters making fun of newcomers who identify themselves as Magnet Super Empaths. Some comments say that the reason why they think they are Magnet SE is because HG likes Magnet SEs. I have no interest in HG liking me. I’m already married with kids and I’m not married to a narcissist. The reason I thought I was a Magnet is because people often really like me even with me not trying to make them like me. My husband tells me that all the time about how people tend to gravitate to me even when we go to a museum or to a party where I don’t know anyone Instill end up being surrounded by people who talk to me and listen to me. It’s not my vanity, it is a fact. But my ED results said I have zero Magnet. Also when I look at HG’s lists of famous Magnet SE, that is not me. I’m not Miss Popular even though people like me and approach me. I tend to have people like me while I am in the vicinity with them but I have trouble making friendships out of acquaintances. Now I know it is because of my CPTSD where I enjoy people but I instinctively avoid deeper connections. So I have very few friends. And also my personality is not even similar to the famous Magnet SEs as they seem to like banters and I am not very good at it. So I think that some people just takes time to understand the concepts and how it applies to them. They don’t necessarily have ulterior motives. And honestly if someone else believes that they are SE, regardless of them being right or wrong, it really doesn’t affect me and my personal healing journey.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Again I think you make a good point, it doesn’t matter which school or cadre a person belongs to as far as our own understanding of ourselves is concerned. It’s likely the narc SE comments that make me bristle, I possibly don’t always recognise that they’re narcs though either!

            Ultimately this place is here for us to learn and if we don’t put our foot in it and mess up on various occasions then it likely means that we aren’t taking part and that won’t teach us as much or as quickly. Your identifying with the Magnet cadre was an honest mistake, none of us really know how we will come out on the detectors until we take them, but people aren’t to know that upon arrival.

            I love trying to figure out the detectors and what our various results mean. Cadre is more interesting to me than School in many ways. I think perhaps we carry many of the same empathic traits, people confiding in us for example but the cadre suggests more about the way these traits are used, when they light up if you like, as opposed to whether we carry the trait or not. People might well confide in both Carrier and Magnet for example, but the Carrier is better in smaller groups perhaps or as you say, the Magnet might have more banter to draw unknowns in. They both still have people confide in them, they just operate that trait differently.
            I honestly don’t think I’ll ever get bored of talking about the detectors!

          2. MP says:

            I agree with you. I think most empaths gravitate people towards them because people can sense the empathic traits. I have seen other commenters like me who thought they were Magnets because strangers also approach them and talk to them and then their ED results are entirely different.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi MP,

            I love your profile pic!

          4. MP says:

            Thank you AV! This was a selfie with my daughter making cute faces but I decided to crop her out even though a big part of me wants to show her off. 😅

          5. A Victor says:

            MP, you’re welcome! I did put another comment about your previous photo but this one is great too, it’s nice to get an idea of what people look like! I don’t feel a safety to do so at this time, but your situation is different I think. I figured it was you and a little one of yours, wise not to show them off but it is so hard not to!

          6. Another Cat says:

            “similar to the famous Magnet SEs as they seem to like banters and I am not very good at it.”

            Totally doable though, if you like, with some practise.

            But if you’re anything like me, often craving to share information during your comments creation time, then banter will often not be the brain’s favourite thing to put energy to, because it has already spent much.

          7. MP says:

            AC, thank you. I am similar, banter is not something that I enjoy, along with small talks and sarcasm. But I enjoy watching others engage in funny banters. It can feel like watching a TV sitcom.

          8. Another Cat says:

            I enjoy the banters here on Narcsite, quite a few on Facebook, and real life too. 🍹🍸

            But with unaware male narcissists (beware) , it’s impossible. They’re just angry, always have to have the last word and all of their interactions are fistfighting oneupmanships. Oh, and they end every comment with 😉

            Even female narcissists are better.

          9. MP says:

            Haha the “end every comment with 😉” made me laugh. That’s probably another reason I am not into banter. Because I might do it with a MR which is not fun! In one of my social media accounts I get messages from strangers which I just delete and ignore. But one irritated me because the guy opened up with “I hope that my message finds you in a good mood today.” Then he went on with a very long monologue about his thoughts of wisdom about life. I was thinking that if he was a narcissist he would probably be a LMR. I just deleted it and blocked him.

            My husband is not always PC with his jokes but he way he does it and the way he puts his words together makes it not offensive. I don’t think he even gives it a thought, it’s just natural to him. One time we were at the hospital waiting room and an elderly wife initiated a conversation with me because I was pregnant at that time. The husband was carrying his oxygen and the couple looked like they were probably in their mid or late seventies. The wife started saying proudly that they have been together for over 40 years and they are still going strong and will be together until the end. My husband said in a really funny way that she may as well keep her husband because he doesn’t have any trade in value left in him. He’s already fully depreciated. Nobody would want him anymore so she’s pretty much stuck with him. It was so funny the guy was laughing so hard while holding his oxygen tank. Sometimes my husband’s joke scares me that it might be too far but almost all the time it ends up getting everybody laughing. That’s probably why I’m not good with banter and making jokes because I can’t stop overthinking while he just does it.

          10. MP says:

            I exchange playful banter with my husband a lot though but that’s because we totally know each other.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Although you do not enjoy it.

          12. MP says:

            I enjoy it with my husband because we understand each other.

          13. MP says:

            HG it probably has a lot to do with my husband’s personality too. He banters with everyone and he can get a shy or not so confident person get out of his/her shell when he starts to banter with them. He picks on people but not on a way that offends people but in a way that makes them laugh. I know when we were just starting to get to know each other and I was living with my MR sister and felt really lonely in a new country with no one who really knows me well, he always got me laughing by picking on me and starting a banter with me and getting me to pick on him too and I remember it made me feel like I fit in. But I normally don’t enjoy banter mostly because I suck at it. But my husband seems to enjoy banters with me regardless of my lack of skills.

          14. A Victor says:

            I was referring to the Tom Brady profile pic, you changed it seconds after I submitted my comment about it. But the new one is great too!

            I love banter in a group of people I feel comfortable with. Not with people I don’t know well. My ex was great at it, small talk, all of it, it made me feel safe in unknown social situations. Too bad he was a narcissist.

          15. MP says:

            Haha I thought you were referring to my picture! 😜. Thank you. I am amazed at what he accomplished.

            I am the same when it comes to banter. It takes time for me to warm up and banter with people.

      2. Another Cat says:

        Thank you for this validation of survivors, MP. Wonder what I am, the day I go for the EDC. Nevertheless with a certain amount of strength.

        1. fox says:

          When I came here I also wondered what I was. I felt like every one of the descriptions had a little piece of me in them, but none felt like a perfect fit. It turned out I was in 4 schools almost evenly, and multiple cadres too, so I guess that makes me a bit of a wildcard. It was very cool take the EDC and have validation why I felt so split among schools and cadres. Maybe you’re like that too, Another Cat.

          1. A Victor says:

            Have you talked with BC30? She has quite a mix also.

          2. fox says:

            A Victor, no, but that’s interesting to hear! I wonder what kind of mix.

          3. Leigh says:

            Fox, BC30 talks about her mix on this thread.


          4. BC30 says:

            Hi Fox! Yes, I’m the resident EDC enthusiast! 🤓 It’s super interesting to note comments and online personalities here. For those whose EDC results I know, I certainly see the corresponding traits.

            I hope HG writes a book about all of us one day, particularly how the schools and cadres work together.

            I am:

            Standard – majority (50%)
            Super – strong majority
            Contagion – significant minority

            Geyser – strong minority
            Magnet – significant minority
            Savior – significant minority
            Carrier – insignificant minority
            Martyr – insignificant minority

    4. Alexissmith2016 says:

      SEs aren’t the number one for the majority of narcs anyway.

      Plus it also has other downsides from being attractive to abusers, certain bitches (not all) really can’t stand them which can cause lots of problems.

  19. Witch says:

    No they can’t “break” the narcissist however
    “When you’re out in the club don’t think she’s not even when your out making love don’t like she’s not, when you’re filling up in somebody’s spot getting hot don’t stop, just don’t shes not cause she’s out getting hers”

  20. leelasfuelstinks says:

    That´s exactly why my fuel stinks 😉 😀 😀 😀

    It´s all about self-defense. It´s not about breaking the narc, it´s about not breaking ourselves. Many of us are ACONS and developed self-defense mechanisms against the abusive narc-parent. We probably don´t carry the genes for NPD or they couldn´t manifest due to eipgenetics?

    Really wonder how on earth we were created?

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Leela, I can’t see how it’s possible for a Super Empath to be born only from parents who are narcissists.

      If you look at the narcissist. They are formed by genetic predisposition plus lack of controlled environment. You need both. This is somewhat paradoxical in itself. Narcissism is an absence not an addition. It is the complete absence of empathic traits. Either the individual is born with the capacity for empathy but it isn’t allowed to form due to lack of control environment or, it was not there to begin with, it was entirely absent, in which case environment is irrelevant. So to suggest BOTH factors have to be present strongly implies that the child is born with capacity for empathy, in which case, essentially the child is born ‘normal’ into narcissistic influence.

      If you then look at the empath then logically, you start with the same baseline assumption. The child is born ‘normal’ with the capacity to develop empathy. Yet here, despite lack of control environment (narcissistic parent) the empathy still develops. So here, there has to be an additional influence or perhaps influences. ‘A teacher of empathy’ friend, teacher, wider family member, parent, combination thereof. The empathy therefore develops normally. This would make the child a normal but not an empath necessarily. My hypothesis is the extra strength that gets added in to the normal empathic traits to result in the higher strength empathic traits of the empath has to be down to one of two factors. Either, the traits are heightened due to the influence of the narcissist. The addiction. Our traits do seem to light up in the presence of the narcissist. Alternatively but equally, there is an empath influence on the child. The heightened empathy is essentially learned empath to empath.

      The Super Empath is different from other empaths primarily in that the configuration of narcissistic traits is stronger. So it seems most likely that the SE element of the empath is also learned. Learned from either a parent who is also a SE, a parent who is narcissistic or a parent who is a narcissist. This means that in many ways Rachel should be a SE. She isn’t though, she is CoD. Suggesting perhaps that her father’s empathic influence was her tipping point not only away from becoming a narcissist but strong enough to considerably lessen Matrinarc’s narcissistic input into the making of a SE and forming a CoD based heavily on his own empathic make up.

      That’s my uneducated opinion anyway.

      1. A Victor says:

        Interesting thoughts Leela and Truthseeker, I have a particular interest in this as well.

        Prior to the physical abuse that happened to me, I remember being so deeply hurt by certain things as a child that I developed defenses against them, almost consciously. They were not necessarily things done to me but sometimes things that I saw or heard about, even something fictional on TV. I believe I was born this way and had I not lived in a lack of control environment that it would have been developed, not where I shut feelings down, but instead where I could’ve used it in some manner. I don’t know that it would’ve made me a normal, but maybe that is how normals start also.

        There was also something of the spitfire (stemming from my pride perhaps) in me from the start, which kept me from being completely and utterly overwhelmed by my parents. I recognized this early on and used it the best I could to defend myself, internally, from them. Again, had my environment been different, I believe this would have developed to make me a more effective person, not only useful as a defense but also useful offensively.

        As an empath, I believe I can create a lack of control environment also, it doesn’t have to come from a narcissist necessarily, but rather from my own upbringing and lack of knowledge about truth. Truth being that life doesn’t need drama, I can be accepted as myself, etc. And I can certainly allow LOC even if I don’t directly create it. But looking back, when I was pining away over the narc all those hours, when he wouldn’t respond, or some other such disruption from “normal” family life for my kids, I was involved in their LOC environment in a very real way. Obviously there are regrets but those aside, looking at the development of each of them, I can see that their nature caused this to affect them each in different ways. Some being more go with the flow, so to speak, and thus appearing to be less affected than others.

        Knowing the information here has largely removed from me the “lack of control” sensation, I wish so much that I would’ve had this knowledge many years ago, I believe it would’ve helped me to release much of my parent’s influence as well as my sense of commitment to them. But now is better than never, I will endeavor to repair damage from my children’s past and allow them to know me as I should’ve always been going forward.

        I only have a very strong super element, not an actual super, but these have been some thoughts I’ve had around that and how we develop.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Leigh, Asp, AV,

          First of all, it’s soooo nice to see you xxx.

          It really is a strange question to fathom isn’t it? I’m almost the control in the experiment. I have no narcissists for parents. My dad is without doubt an empath, his empathy would likely come out higher than mine but actually, I think his narcissistic traits are possibly stronger also. Mother normal, the narcissistic end of normal but without doubt not a narcissist. No LOC environment for me at all. Totally stable, parents still married, close with my grandma who was the only living grandparent. Tiny family. No traumatic childhood experience. So if you put me next to Leigh the nurture side couldn’t be more different. That’s why it’s so bizarre in my mind!

          Asp, I haven’t read the links yet but thank you for posting, I love reading about this kind of thing. I always have to know why things are as they are. Narcissist’s dream! Ha ha.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, no worries about the links. I think they will surprise you 🙂

            Laughing at your words “narcissist’s dream”….

          2. A Victor says:

            Truthseeker, Leigh and Asp Emp, it is good to see you, everyone here, also!

            TS, I had not realized you were so blessed as a child! Very happy for you! And yet you became an empath, that speaks a lot to the gene element for sure, imo.

            Asp, those links are very interesting! I did not get much work done today! 🙄

          3. MP says:

            Truthseeker, my dad had two empathic parents and he was an empath. My dad was not a weak kind of empath but someone who fought fiercely for his beliefs and for others. He was very much admired by a lot of people although some also disliked him. I don’t know if he would be a SE or not but whatever he was he was definitely one of a kind and has done so much good for the community and the people around him. He was a war hero too. My grandmother was also a very strong empath. One of the stories about her was that she was able to get people to help her ask a doctor to help a young girl who was an illegal immigrant and was in need of urgent medical attention. A big crowd of people stood in front of the doctor’s house until he accepted to help the young girl. This was probably in the forties. My grandmother was also raised by both empaths. My grandfather is the less dominant empath between the two and his father was an alcoholic narcissist who abandoned them when my grandfather was a child. I remember my N half sister said our grandfather was a weakling and my dad was totally offended and he said that our grandfather was probably the kindest and sweetest person anyone can ever meet and he was a war hero and courageous and full of integrity. I was only raised by my N mom and she has isolated me. She was my biggest influence. I have only communicated with my dad through letters once a month and have never seen him in person until I was 26. However, a lot of people took note of the many similarities I have with him and even my grandmother that I have never met. So I believe that genetics play a huge role. But the trauma that I experienced from my mom, causing me CPTSD probably made me a weaker empath because I have to function through all of the traumas ingrained in my nervous system and I have to manage that as best as I can. According to the ED I am a Standard empath with a small SE with no Co-D and Contagion. I’m just doing my best to raise my kids without trauma and unhealthy programming. I am already pretty sure that they are extremely empathic. My husband is an empathic normal.

          4. MP says:

            I feel like I want to clarify a few things:
            * illegal immigrants is probably not PC so an undocumented immigrant is probably more acceptable. The young girl was a daughter of a farm worker who didn’t have immigration documents.
            *when I said “weaker empath” I wasn’t saying I’m a weak person or a weakling. What I meant to say is that the traumas make a lot of things more challenging for me, almost like a some kind of disability that I have to live with. But I am a very strong person. I was able to break the cycle of narcissism in my family and is addressing whatever issues I still have and also I have accomplished things in my life in spite of the abuse that I experienced and a weak person wouldn’t do all of that.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Your comment is so interesting! Thank you for explaining. Narcissism appears in your history at the great grandfather point, with empaths being prevalent throughout until you get to your own mother where it appears again. It is fascinating that you became an empath when your mother was the key influence in your life. The posts on this thread certainly point strongly to a genetic component that comes through almost regardless of environment. Fascinating.

            Weak, strong, I think it’s a matter of perspective. Would it be right to say that a standard empath is weaker than a SE if the standard has endured an upbringing with a narcissistic parent and the SE had not for example? In my mind, no.

            Just as narcissists control the narrative for romance, I believe it’s the narcissists in general that see the SE as the school of choice. Or at least the one the Midrangers would most like to identify with. Yes, of course, to think that there is a school of empath that might escape quicker or be less damaged by the narcissist, makes this school desirable to us all, but in my mind the prize is being part of the empathic group as a whole.

            Take us away from the narcissist and place us in the world as a whole and any empath from any school or cadre would be a person I would choose to be with. The CoD might appear weaker in the context of the narcissist, screw the narcissist, because the CoD would be the closest most loyal friend you ever had. You would always know where you stood with the standard Geyser empath and isn’t that refreshing in today’s world? The Contagion would know how I really felt despite my very best efforts to say ‘I’m fine’ and sometimes I need that, even though I would never admit it. Every school and every cadre is a real blessing in the context of the wider world. I don’t see any of us as weaker or stronger because we all have strengths and weaknesses in different contexts and with different groups of people.

            Thanks again for your comment MP x

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I was very blessed as a child. I find it heartbreaking when I read what some of the empaths here had to endure growing up. Similarly, HG.
            I can promise that I do realise how lucky I am to have the parents I have. I do cherish them and am thankful for them every single day.

            You seem from your post always to have had a strong sense of self, your empathy coming from within rather than having a role model. That’s quite something. I agree with you, it does point strongly to the empath being born rather than made. Who knows, maybe we arrive in two forms, one born empath, one born more as a blank canvas with the fortune of having a strong empathic influence in their lives. Either way, I love the fact that you are drawing a line under the past and using the understanding gained here to move forward positively. Testimony to HG’s work, this blog and the empaths on it, and your own ability as an empath to heal and to fix. Xx

          7. A Victor says:

            TS, thank you so much for this comment, it means so much more to me than you can know. I have not understood “sense of self”, not at all, and have just recently learned it is a thing and begun learning about it. I have to get back to myself, as I knew myself to be. It may be very difficult now, and certainly scary, because there are so many things I am now afraid of, I feel like half a person, a person broken in half. But you have helped to clarify that I have something pretty concrete to reach for, thank you so much!

          8. A Victor says:

            And yes, definitely a testimony to HG’s work, this blog and the empath’s here. We will see about the me part! Lol!

          9. A Victor says:

            TS, AE and Leigh,

            For lack of a better place to put this, here it is. I just watched the video Are Narcissists Failed Empaths and I am pretty sure it says that we do have an empath gene, we will be an empath as a result and the type is determined by outside factors. Also the narcissist has the gene for narcissism but, if no LOC environment or in the event of an interloper(?) they will not become a narcissists but instead an empath, normal or narcissistic. This means that we must be able to be born with both an N and am E, one or the other, or neither. Is this how it is HG? This answers the questions here, if I understood it correctly. Also, is there someplace that I could’ve heard the content of The Narcissist vs the Screenshot before? That one sounds so familiar.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            Crying with laughter, you saying “interloper” followed by a question mark – ok, I’ll make a note to read this video.

          11. A Victor says:

            I couldn’t remember the word, ha. Interceder…? Interacter…? Ugh…

          12. Leigh says:

            I have to go pick up my daughter from the airport tonight so I will be listening to these videos on the drive in. I also want to listen to “Why Doesn’t the Narcissist Ask for What They Want?” I tried to listen at work yesterday but I kept getting interrupted. Its hard to listen at home too because my husband is always around. I’m looking forward to the long drive all by myself tonight. Thank you, AV.

          13. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I hope you enjoyed your alone time. I love my car for the same reason though I don’t use it this way as often anymore.

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Your comment made me smile and fill up, both at the same time!
            As a group I think empaths get lost in things sometimes. Events, people, they obscure our view of ourselves. Narcissists cause it, but life in general causes it too. Too many roles to play, played so often that we become the role. That doesn’t mean we aren’t still in there. We are. Strip away the obscuring influences and you’ll get back to yourself, bit clunky to start maybe but you’ll get there !

          15. A Victor says:

            Truthseeker, you are likely correct about us becoming obscured easily. Thank you for the encouragement.

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Ha ha, I listened to the video too. It was around the time I was head to foot in Asp’s graphs and thinking myself dizzy. A strange glow filled the room, soft angel chorus and a hiccup from Bertha as she threw the plastic sugar dummy handle off the top of the wardrobe. Then, up it popped, ‘The Answer’. Bit like that anyway.

          17. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! That was my reaction too! Minus the Bertha part of course! 🤣🤣

        2. Leigh says:

          AV, lol! I was and still am a spit fire too! When parents couldn’t control me, they withdrew. Typical narcissists!

          By the way, before Mr. Tudor left, I left you a question on The Futility of Your Feelings blog post.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I was only a spitfire on the inside! This is why my mother never completely broke me, though she thought she did. She did a lot of damage though. Like MP said, it has been almost like living with a disability, an emotional and social one. But mine withdrew too, at a certain point, when it became too difficult to keep me down.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            hahahah Leigh, I’d like to have seen that. I couldn’t be controlled by my mother either, it ended up in lots of very long STs, sometimes for months depending on how bad I’d been.

            I also questioned myself repeatedly as to whether I was a narc but I know I experience guilt and empathy. I do still feel like a bit of a hybrid, half narc/half empath.

          3. Leigh says:

            Alexis, I want to further clarify my previous comment about loving silent treatments. I didn’t always love them. They used to give me anxiety and I would chase after my mom, husband or anyone else that gave me a silent treatment. Since coming here, I no longer chase them because I know that’s what they want. Now, I just enjoy the space.

          4. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith, same, once I gained freedom, granted by our father at the ripe old age of 17(!) I went nuts! Not having any, freedom prior, I had no idea how to handle it! Thought I was a very bad person for a few years there.

          5. K says:

            Sorry for the delay; I saw your question re: Arenas and answered it on: What You Need to Know, Not What You Want to Hear.


          6. Leigh says:

            Alexis, Ha! I definitely feel like half narc/half empath too. I’ll do something narcy, then the empath in me feels bad. Then I’ll have to do something to fix it or correct it.

            As for the silent treatments, I love them. I REALLY do. Its the only time I get peace.
            Plus once my mom or my husband are done with their silent treatment, they’re usually pleasant again. I now know that its only a respite period but I’ll take it until I can get out and stay out.

            With my mom, its extremely low contact. I talk to her once a month at best and its a 5 minute conversation on the phone. Due to COVID, I haven’t seen her since February of 2020. Now I just have to work on no contact with the husband.

          7. BC30 says:

            Thanks for the EDC tag! 🤓I responded to Fox.

        3. K says:

          A Victor
          You may have heard similar content on The Narcissists’s Twin Lines of Defence. To Control is to Cope may help you sort out the question re: GPD.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you K, I will check these out again today.

        4. BC30 says:

          I do track and would share my findings, but my sample size is too small. It also only reflects the results of those who are active and extroverted enough to share here. 💕💕

          1. A Victor says:

            It’s a start! How exciting!

          2. A Victor says:

            I look forward to whatever you put together anytime!

      2. Leigh says:

        Hi Truthseeker, I often wonder about this myself. I haven’t done a narc detector on my parents but I strongly believe they were both narcissists. My father would discipline us with his fists and he would grab whoever was in front of him first. My mother was neglectful, to say the least. Often my brothers and I, weren’t fed dinner. It wasn’t because of money because my mother came from a wealthy family. She just didn’t shop or cook so we had to eat whatever we can get our hands on. Often times, there was nothing. She would order out and feed herself but not us.

        I clearly had a lack of control environment and neither one of my parents were empaths. In fact more than likely they were both narcissists. So how did I become an empath? My theory is that my empathy was born out of the need to take care of and protect myself and my brothers. No one was going to protect me so I had to protect myself.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hi Leigh, I found some interesting info on the links I provided just below our comment….. it may answer your question RE: empath.

          1. Leigh says:

            Asp Emp, I don’t have much info on my grandparents. My father only new his mother and she was in another country. I only met her once and she died when I was young. As for my mom’s parents, we were treated like the red headed step children. We had very little contact with my mom’s family. My mom’s father died when I was 13 and her mother almost never saw us. I couldn’t even guess if I received any of their DNA. Maybe, maybe not. I’m an enigma, lol! I might get in trouble for saying this, but maybe Mr. Tudor was having an off day when he told me I was an empath. Or maybe I completed my empath detector incorrectly. I don’t know. 🤷‍♀️

          2. Asp Emp says:

            If Mr Tudor says you’re an empath, then you are. Yet, I have to say that I do question myself at times about my empath but I do cry, laugh, feel the positive emotions (I am still laughing from a comment on another thread)….. such a shame not having much contact with grandparents. You would have inherited DNA from them, I did find the info on the links very interesting though. Yes, don’t doubt yourself, you are an empath because HG is never wrong.

          3. Leigh says:

            Thank you for your kind words Asp. Yes, I know I’m an empath. I feel all the feelings too. As hard as I try, those pesky little emotions keep popping up!

            P.S. some of your comments keep me laughing my ass off.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Leigh – your words “those pesky little emotions keep popping up!” – Yeah, I get it too. Some of mine are not so little 😉

            Thank you RE: my comments making you laugh, it’s good to know 🙂

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I’m starting to understand the thought that if we wonder if we’re narcissists, we aren’t. Also, it has been repeatedly explained to me that empaths can do bad things, but we’re still empaths. And lastly, I hope that at some point you feel comfortable to talk with HG. He is polite, absolutely full of information and also, having recorded the conversation, I learn more every time I listen to it. It would be time well spent for you, if you ever decide to.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I see your point about there being a necessity in your case. What’s interesting though is that for you, protecting yourself related to an empathic perspective and didn’t result in a narcissistic one. You also recognised the need to broaden this protection so it encompassed your two brothers. Necessity to protect yourself could have gone either way, in some ways narcissism might have been the more logical choice, but as a child you moved in the opposite direction to your environment. So you either don’t carry the predisposition towards narcissism or, there is a similar genetic predisposition for the formation of an empath that is less connected to environment. Could narcissism be recessive and empathy dominant? Oh crap, I need to look at my biology notes ! ( yes, I do still have them ha ha).

          1. Leigh says:

            Hi Truthseeker, see my response to Asp Emp on this thread. I’m baffled by it all. Even with Mr. Tudor telling me I’m an empath, I often think I filled out the empath detector incorrectly and so his results are skewed. I just can’t understand how.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            This made me laugh. I thought the same thing but then that’s normal for me. I don’t trust people to make the call for me. I make the calls for myself. It posed me a problem with the EDC but not the TDC.

            The EDC I felt was bang on with cadre and minority cadres. I rejected the school. I could see why it might have come out as that on paper, but I still rejected it and concentrated on cadre. It’s only really over the last few months that I realised HG was right on school too. The issue was that my perception of the school was wrong. Which meant that in my view I didn’t fit. Over time I have learned more about each school and realise that all the reasons why I thought I didn’t fit are actually the reasons why I do. He was right, I was wrong, which irritates me, but it’s true.

            Trust the EDC. Whatever the results were they will be correct. You might be similar to me. The EDC just a little bit ahead of your understanding. On top of that, nah, sorry Leigh, you scream empath! Ha ha!

          3. A Victor says:

            Leigh and Truthseeker, this is one area that my sense of self shows! Thank you both for showing it to me. I have never been concerned with the results of tests such as this, if I learned all I could about the definitions and they didn’t fit, they went out the window, because I knew myself better! Thank you!!!

          4. Leigh says:

            Truthseeker, Crap! I don’t wanna scream empath, lol! That’s why the narcissists keep sniffing around.

            On a serious note, I know what you mean about school vs. cadre. I feel like he was dead on accurate with the cadres. I question the school though. How come I have no CoD? I feel like I should. I’ve been in a 35 year relationship with a narcissist. Why can’t I leave? It feels like codependency.

          5. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I get this!! I wanted to know how they spot us so I could not do it!! Haha! I have learned it’s not really possible, we just have to spot them, lol, and run!

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I see the way you are thinking as regards the length of time you have been in a marriage with a narcissist. In my mind, without knowing you or your husband in real life, there are numerous reasons you haven’t left, all of them valid. It depends on what type of narcissist he is. If he is Midrange, let’s say MMR type B Elite for example, (just because that was the school and cadre I was involved with so know more about) it’s very possible you have found a way to co exist. He doesn’t talk with his fists, he doesn’t overtly shout, put you down etc, he operates the facade of a MMR and does it well.

            Next add in children, how many women stay in place for them? Thinking that the financial security, affords them a better start. The marriage staying together affords them emotional stability.

            Then add in, better the devil you know, fear of the unknown after so much time has passed. The narcissist can’t be controlled. He does what he wants, but if this ‘what he wants’ happens to be more of a middle ground, what he wants might be acceptable/ manageable. Habit, routine, own lives, own jobs or not, strong set of girl friends, strong bonds with own children. There are any number of reasons why you haven’t left and all are yours, all are valid.

            Environment, society itself, all play their part. Empathy comes in in that you are predisposed to put others needs first. You don’t have to be CoD to do that. We all do that to a varying extent.
            The type of narcissist will play a part, your own empathic nature will play a part but similarly, your environment and society will be playing a part also. Should you leave? Technically yes he is a narcissist. Will you leave ? That’s entirely your choice because only you see your life from the inside, only you know. Whichever choice you make doesn’t make you weak or strong or anything else and doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with your school.

            Emotional Thinking will play a large part too. You are always with him so it will always be high. This will influence your decision making too and will have the whole way along. (Maybe you should do a Julia Roberts! Take a 6 month trip and find yourself a nice Italian. Was he Italian? If he wasn’t he should have been. Cant remember where she went now ha ha) Seriously though, it’s not easy when it’s a marriage Leigh. It doesn’t reflect on school. It reflects on you just being a good person who is an empath x

          7. BC30 says:

            Eat, Pray, Love I wish Leigh could do that. Yours are words of wisdom.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you for your kind comment BC30 x

        3. leelasfuelstinks says:

          VERY good question. This is exactly the question, I´m asking too. I never experienced empathy as child. My “dad” has NPD and my mom? Probably co-dependent. Nobody showed EVER empathy for me when I was a child. I suffered years and years of narcissistic abuse. And guess what? I turned out as Super Empath!! WTF? 😀

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leela,

            If you think your mum was CoD, is it possible you got the Empath gene from her but the influence of your dad instilled your higher narcissistic traits resulting in you being SE?

            I remember you saying your dad was critical of your appearance and so you always took care to look good for example, then this behaviour gets locked in to your make up so it becomes automatic and something you are drawn to in a partner etc.

            Empath gene coming from mum, Higher narc traits taught by dad?

      3. Asp Emp says:

        Hello TS, I read your comment with interest and it also made me think. With a narcissist mother, I wondered where my being an empath came from and I always said that I inherited it from my maternal grandmother – I believe I inherited more than 25% of her DNA because of the eye / hair colour & other features rather than much from my maternal grandfather. So I had a quick Google and found these two links very revealing…….

      4. NarcAngel says:

        The way I see it, the problem with the average person trying to determine if certain people/groups (SE, Co-d, Narcissist etc) ended up as they are due to genetics, is that they are guessing about their genetic donors for the most part. They may in some cases be basing for instance the declaration that their grandparent was an empath or a narc on: infrequent interaction, stories handed down from others, or even their own personal bias in their feeling about the person. In lot cases we are basing it on select memories and cannot actually know (even now with our education here). We are merely guessing – and a lot of the time we may have got it wrong.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          NA, Asp

          NA, I see your point here. We don’t know. I read the links Asp posted last night. Took me forever Asp as I had to study every graph (obviously) cant just skim read like normal people can I?! The articles do make sense, and we are a product of more than just our parents, you see that in family resemblances, so personality traits are likely similar. It is difficult to be accurate though NA I agree and for the reasons you state. We can estimate, consider. Once HG goes into further detail about the formation of our relevant schools and cadres we might be able to take a further stab at our own family histories to see who might have fed in to the making of who we are. Sometimes it’s possible to make a semi educated guess though.

          I never met my maternal grandmother. She died young, poor health overall, hole in the heart. My mum tells me she would come home from school and the house would be freezing. Every single window open in the middle of winter. Her mum sick, shivering in bed. Her dad would open every window in the house when they went to school, out of sheer badness. His wife sick, house freezing. She died and he farmed my mum and brothers out to other family members, all three siblings separated up. My mum doesn’t talk about it, the scantest of detail but I know that she never saw him from age 15, even when he was dying of pneumonia as an old man, my mum didn’t go to see him and didn’t go to his funeral. I can’t say that my grandfather was a narc. I never met him. I could take an educated guess given my mum’s behaviour towards him that it’s certainly possible. We don’t know, we could villainise as much as romanticise but we formed somehow and likely against the odds in some cases, fascinating how it works.

          Thank you for the links Asp, I really enjoyed reading them.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Apologies for the long & much information on the links. Sad reading about your grandmother that deserved better treatment from grandfather. Your mum not seeing her father from age 15 says a lot. A lot. It’s interesting how DNA from ancestors can lead to how individuals are ‘shaped’ into what they are born with, yet life’s experiences changes it – sometimes to the point of complete change. Glad you perused the links, TS.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp, Never apologise to me for considering one of my comments and posting something for me to look at. I love that. I was only teasing about the time it took to read. I’m OCD on stuff like that. If someone is kind enough to direct me to something they think I’ll find interesting then I make damn sure I read it properly! Xx

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, thank you TS x

          4. Leigh says:

            Truthseeker, I couldn’t respond to your comment above so I’m responding here.

            The movie you are talking about is Eat Pray Love and I loved it! Her love interest in the movie is Javier Bardem and he is extra yummy! I don’t remember if he was Italian.

            All of the things you stated are all of the reasons I’ve stayed with my husband for so long. Workplace narc was my Javier Bardem and forced me to open my eyes. I can’t make excuses anymore. Thank you for understanding though.

            I’m sorry to read this about your grandfather. I can certainly relate with your mom. When my father passed, I grieved and moved on very quickly. I’m glad your mom was able to escape the unpleasantness of it all.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Yes, that’s the one, Eat, Pray, Love. Great concept, to travel, run away, just be you. On my to do list when the kids are older. I’ll start interviews for the love interest shortly. Try before I buy! Ha ha! Kidding, probably.

            Thank you for the comment about my mum. She’s a cool customer. I remember asking to meet my grandfather as a kid. My uncle had called my mum to tell her that my grandfather was seriously ill. It was the first time I found out I even had a grandfather. The answer was a non negotiable. ‘No’.
            She made the right decision.

          6. Leigh says:

            BC30, thank you! Yes, I need 6 months to Eat, Pray, Love. Especially with Javier Bardem, lol!

            Truthseeker, I agree with BC30, your word will often give me hope. Thank you.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh, you made me smile, thank you. Xx

      5. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Very interesting!

        We Supers on the other hand MAY carry the genes for NPD but there may be other genetic combinations that regulate our self-defenses so we did not develop into full narcs, the narc in us may have just partially formed, other genes may have suppressed the manifestation of the NPD-mutation.

        Or other genetic regulatory mechanisms (Methylation, Acetylation, interactions of different genes) lead to our development into Super Empaths and not full narcs? Our self-defense mechanism of going Supernova COULD be due to the NPD-gene that we carry but is suppressed by ….other genes? epigenetics?

        The CoD “accepts” the abuse. They try everything to please their abusive parent(s). They adapt, and they cannot develop self-esteem, self-defenses. The CoD is only “The Creature”. They have no self-defense mechanism at all. I have no idea if there must be abuse in the development of Standard Empaths or Contagions, they MAY also grow up in a loving, caring family?

        In a lack of control environment some become Normals, some become Empaths, some turn into CoDs, some develop NPD, some become Borderlines or Psychopaths and some come out as Super Empaths. In the same family siblings can turn out differently. H.G. is the only narcissistic Psychopath in his family. Rachael is a CoD and one brother is even an Empath.

        I would GUESS: Full blown NPDs and Super Empaths are carriers of the NPD-genes, in Super Empaths they could not completely manifest, that´s why we did not turn into full Narcs, while Empaths and CoD´s don´t carry the genes.

        1. Witch says:

          I’m not sure if there are genes for developing different types of empaths, it may just be how the core personality develops within the empathetic experience. Some people learn to cope with dealing with narcissists by becoming more codependent because it’s a tactic that served their psychological and physical survival under a narc to a degree by appeasing the narc.
          Similarly a super empath maybe develope out of narc survival or maybe even from having empath parents who supported their independence and confidence

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think you are right. Two empathic parents would be likely to embrace the narcissistic traits shown by the child as the other half of the coin. In that sense the child would be allowed to develop those traits in a healthy way. At the same time, the empathic traits would be emphasised through positive reinforcement. Empathic parents might well assist the creation of a SE child.

            My two children ( boy and a girl) are 13 months apart and have always behaved like twins. My daughter is younger so developmentally on a par. She is showing definite and numerous empathic traits but she can be narcy as hell too at times. It doesn’t bother me because I know she’s still in flux and she most definitely has emotional empathy.

            My son is a typical boy. He is noticeably more selective in his empathy, demonstrating fewer empathic traits but in some ways more in tune with me than my daughter. He safeguards. He knows how I might worry or feel guilty about something so he actively takes steps to reassure or prevent that. So I’d say depth of empathy is greater but used far more selectively.

            Nurture has its role and a huge role but you can’t get past nature either. My two are very different in the way their emotional empathy manifests.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Not sure either 🙂 I think many (ir not all?) Supers are ACONS. It may be a combination of genetics and environment as it usually is. 🙂

          3. Witch says:

            Yes an empath parent would also support some of the child’s narc traits especially if it protected the child.
            I’ve always thought that if I had a daughter, I would especially make sure she thinks she’s the best thing since sliced bread because over my dead body is she getting knocked up by a lesser drug dealer. She needs to have an ego

          4. A Victor says:

            TS, Leela and Witch, I’m an empath parent who did not support narc traits, I didn’t know they were useful if developed properly. I wish I would’ve thought I was the next best thing since sliced bread so I could’ve passed that on to my daughter’s. Thankfully they’re doing okay anyway but my upbringing definitely affected their upbringing. I was not allowed an ego, my mother said to me, after persuading her to allow me to wear makeup in ninth grade, “Don’t act like a slut now just because that’s on your face.”. It would’ve hurt less to be slapped, I wasn’t even thinking about boys yet. Can’t figure all this out right now but I know that narcissists hurt us so figuring out how to minimize that is my present goal. I have really been enjoying this thread though!

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ha ha yep! Also. Stubbornness. Out of my narcy traits I’d say stubbornness has done me more good than anything else. If I’m not for moving on something, I’m not to be moved, and if I’m going, good luck stopping me. Both kids have huge doses of stubbornness which although it can make my life far harder at times, I am relieved to see they both have it. Stubbornness isn’t listed as one of the ten narc traits I don’t think but we can certainly nudge it over to the dark side!

          6. Witch says:

            I’m sorry to hear your mum spoke to you that way. I find that narc mums are especially envious of their daughters because they resent the fact that their daughters might outshine them in some way, especially when it comes to their youth and beauty.
            I remember when I posted pictures of my mum and I on Facebook together and she said “I bet no one is talking about me and they are all leaving comments about you.” I was in my 20’s
            But that’s when I first noticed that my mum was jealous of me.
            My mum is very sly with how she expresses her jealousy

          7. A Victor says:

            Because I was my dad’s golden child, she was envious of me before I can remember, but, it’s all in the past now, now it’s just letting go of her crap. I feel for you and all who have experienced this also, it is horrible.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          There’s a big difference here though. Your mum thought only of herself and didn’t love you. She gained control over you in the example you gave, by torpedoing your confidence at a time when a girl’s confidence is fragile.

          I know enough to guarantee you didn’t do that to your own children. You might not have fostered narcissistic traits, encouraged them, but you wouldn’t react cruelly when they were expressed. Various narcissistic traits are there in everyone anyway, it’s only the narcs that don’t have the empathic traits to balance them. In effect, if you don’t suppress, then by default, you encourage. You allow them to show, you don’t try to stamp them out.

          I think that if you look at it this way, you will have done what Witch says she would do if she has a daughter (you would tell your daughter how beautiful she looks, build her confidence) and very similar also to me with my two. Sophie can go up like a rocket and if she isn’t attacking or being disrespectful, then go for it, go up like a rocket! She doesn’t do it all the time, she shows frustration, good thing. She’s stubborn, I didn’t place stubborn there intentionally, but I certainly won’t try to restrict it. It’s her spirit and her way and I’m hellish glad it’s there. Stubborn can keep you safe. I’d hazard a guess you will have reacted similarly, so you will have nurtured their narcissistic traits as well as their empathic ones, you just perhaps don’t realise. X

          1. A Victor says:

            TS, you are correct. Thank you, again.

    2. Leigh says:

      Hi Leela, TS, AV & Asp, I’m so glad to see you all too! I missed you all sooooo much!

      Its so interesting to me that we all came from different environments, some LOCE and some not, and we all became empaths.

      1. A Victor says:

        Yes, it makes no sense except for the genes.

        Going to check out the Futility of Your Feelings now…

        1. wildviolet22 says:

          A Victor- what you said before about the lack of control environment up above. That’s something I’ve thought a lot about in regards to my sister and I, and how different our personalities and approaches to problem solving are. Growing up in the exact same house with the same dysfunctional set of parents, you’d think there would be more similarities, but I see that’s where the “nature” part comes in when it comes to differences.

          Haven’t done the Empath Detector on myself, but I have some idea where I might land after reading through the articles here for the past year. Not sure that I am high in codependency in general, except when it comes to her. But I have to remind myself over & over again not to get pulled into her stuff. She’s a starting “victim” in the Karpan/ Drama Triangle (victim-persecutor-rescuer), and what I’ve come to understand is that “victims” do not want solutions. I can’t even dip one little toe in with rescuing when starts with her stuff, because you end up spinning endlessly on that Drama Triangle ride. Rescuing doesn’t work (easier said than done, though, since we were in the foxhole together growing up)..

          With other relationships and my own situations that I have gotten myself in, and how I got myself out, gives me an idea of what I might be, but I’d have to do the detector one of these days to see for sure.

          1. Leigh says:

            WildViolet, you are so right about victims not wanting a solution. The thrive in the drama.

            You should definitely do the empath and trait detectors. When you see the results it will give you a much better understanding of yourself.

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi Wildviolet22, it is interesting! And your experience and mine are quite similar. I think my sister is a narcissist. My brother, can’t tell for certain, he could go either way. In our home I was my dad’s golden child which may have protected me somewhat, or I didn’t have the N gene to start with. My siblings just left, which I would’ve liked also but my ex said we would not so, I’m still here. Thanks for sharing your experience, I find it fascinating.

          3. wildviolet22 says:

            Leigh & A Victor- thank you. And A Victor, glad to hear you got some clarity about your own family members/ siblings.

            And yeah, with my sister, supportive listening doesn’t work with her like with other people, so I just got to the point where certain topics are off limits. It’s too exhausting, and I just don’t want to hear it anymore.

            I was talking to a friend about it the other day. You know how sometimes on tv show or documentaries, when you have a histrionic / personality disordered person who does something bizarre, and they have friends or siblings, and people are like “why didn’t the they stop them?” I’m usually the person who says “whoa… hold it with the blaming”.. and will give the family the benefit of the doubt at least, knowing what it’s like to have a sibling with train wreck behaviors, who will listen to nothing and no one. :/

          4. A Victor says:

            Hey Wildviolet22, just to clarify, I find the whole family/narcissistic dynamic fascinating, and I appreciate you sharing your experience, didn’t mean to say I find your experience fascinating. Lol

          5. wildviolet22 says:

            Oh yes A Victor, I got that you meant the family dynamics in general. 🙂

            It’s an interesting topic for sure, and one that I’ve given a lot of thought to as well.

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Me too! I missed our great, interesting and constructive discussions. But now our Sensei is back 🙂

  21. Claire says:

    Another masterpiece, HG! This video resonates so deeply with me. Listening to you was like a travelling back in time , the time that I decided enough was enough and I couldn’t waste my time anymore in a miserable marriage. When I left my Narc ex husband I didn’t want any revenge nor I was see liking any alimony or other benefits from my ex. The only thing that I wanted was freedom! I did not have any desire for revenge. I didn’t plot to break or destroy him. No point wasting time and energy surrendering to hate, bitterness and other negative feelings.
    And when I read your book “ Revenge: How to Beat the Narcissist” I was relieved to learn that the best revenge is the lack of.
    I purchased the book because I wanted to educate myself further, not because I wanted to engage in causa perduta ( my case only, not a conclusion) .
    The book is brilliant and I cannot express how strongly I recommend together with this video to any other IPPS who is dreaming to get revenge or to destroy the Narc.
    Achieving freedom is the best revenge.

  22. lickemtomorrow says:

    I have listened to this audio and want to refer to the article on the Empathic Supernova. While I understand that defence is the more likely outcome and escape the preferred option, the Empathic Supernova gives another perspective on this scenario. While an empath of any variety may not break a narcissist (the point of the article) an Empathic Supernova indicates that an empath (likely a SuperEmpath) will engage the narcissist in a host of manipulations which I would consider “offensive” on the part of the empath. You describe this well in your article, HG. And how a narcissist of variety of schools might react. You also liken it to the apprentice turning on their master, having learnt their “trade” from the narcissist themselves. I just wanted to put this thought out there as I found the video confusing in this respect. There is no mention of a Supernova event.

  23. Asp Emp says:

    “shrively walnut bald coward” – oh, so wonderful to see Google Transcribe at it’s best, HG.

    Before I read the video, I thought to myself that it is the narcissist that actually breaks themselves (due to a different perspective from normals / empaths) and also the empath that breaks themselves (via ET and LT being out of sync).

    Loving the words “during the course of the devaluation it isn’t about always losing your temper and going nuts with the narcissist”…… (laughing)

    Interesting to read “and instead what must be done is to build that wall around them to sit within the tower to ensure that they are no longer being abused and that they have broken free from the chains that the narcissist has wrapped around them” – because I am recalling the articles in relation to the Narcissist’s Tower.

    This video was brilliant to view and to take in, as part of my education. As I have not yet had my EDC (or TDC) – I don’t really know where I ‘sit’ in relation to empaths. Yet, the learning and the education I have ‘picked’ up so far has been really valuable.

    And, yes, the Lesser and MRN that I knew eventually were not able to ‘control’ me to the point that they gave up, no Hoovers, no continued contact, nothing. Yes, that Lesser did approach me a while back, yet nothing since. Their ‘loss of control over me’ was long before I learnt anything about narcissism and how it affects ‘victims’. I gained back my ‘control’ over them – yet I was still carrying the ‘dregs’ of their ‘residue’ within myself. Now, that has been ‘drained’. Simply because of what I have learned about narcissism and aspects about myself as an individual.

    Thank you for this video, HG. Another enlightening piece of work.

  24. NarcAngel says:

    I have just finished listening. Excellent explanation as usual with regard to how the behaviours manifest and dispels some of the common misconceptions. I fully agree with the portion on revenge.

  25. Duchessbea says:

    Everything you say in this video is correct HG. My goodness you seem to know my kind almost better than me. There is something that I have never heard you mention and that is the Empath Freeze. I don’t know if this happens for all, but I do know for Empaths with extremely strong empathic traits, this is very prevalent. It’s hard to describe, but when it occurs, you know something or someone is majorly off, every internal alarm bell is ringing and you know you have got to be wary and watchful. Sometimes, you don’t even have to speak to a narcissist to know what you are dealing with. You can feel it from standing close to them and you will just freeze. If I happened to meet you in person, being that you are The Ultra, I know I would not be able to talk to you, no matter how much I would want to. I will instantly freeze. Everything about you would tell me to get away from you. Your dazzling good looks and no doubt fit body would have me looking, but your vibe would have me running. I have had this my whole life. Being that I’m from a family of narcissists, my older sisters and my twin sister and I’m the only Empath. Back then I didn’t know what I was dealing with, having only become aware of what your kind are, not too long ago. I could never put my finger on what it was, but the Empath within me was able to tell me something is majorly off and to get out. School was interesting. Co-Ed Boarding school. I could spot what I now know to be narcs a mile off, just didn’t know there was a name for them. I just avoided as best I could. Funny, they all wanted to be friends with me more so than my twin sister. Go figure. I guess a narcissist can spot a narcissist a mile off too.
    Anyway, great video. Thanks HG. 💗

    1. NarcAngel says:


      That’s interesting. Your twin sister is a narcissist?

    2. Emc2gion says:

      Enjoyed listening to this one HG, thankyou. Duchessbea, I experience this empathic freeze you talk about, it’s an energetic response that I feel in my nervous system. I’m a majority Contagion empath. I find that if someone is highly narcy my body reacts before my brain to warn me, sometimes unconsciously at first suddenly hold my breath. I had it happen not long ago and it was such a strong response, I just felt be very careful here, I tried not to judge because said person had told me they were an empath that had been diagnosed as borderline, but my instincts still were doing that freeze response and wanting to keep away, then I listened to HGs info on the borderline, explained why I had that reaction. I also find that if I have to be around narcy ppl I just cant relax, I will have that freeze feeling at first but afterwards I can’t relax. I guess this is also a reason why I want to have a phone consult with HG but haven’t been able to.

  26. WhoCares says:

    Ooh – delicious listening for later, once the little one has gone to bed.

  27. BC30 says:


    I’m stoked to see what everyone has to say!

    I’ll have more thoughts soon!

  28. NarcAngel says:

    I already know this is bullshit and I haven’t even listened yet haha.

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