Let’s Pretend



Here we are again. In that all too familiar place. I have lost count of how many times I have found myself here. Despite my very best endeavours, my valiant intentions and earnest dedication I am stood in this hallway of despair. Some time ago this hallway was a welcoming place where polished tiles gleamed and marble pillars glinted. The air was filled with the scent of jasmine, bright sunlight pouring in through the glass dome high above.

So many corridors and doorways led from this hallway, offering exciting and intriguing possibilities, new experiences and enthralling opportunities. I can still picture you when you had crossed the threshold, invited into my world and you stood open-mouthed impressed and amazed by the grandeur. With a typically generous and expansive sweep of my arm I offered you the free run of those corridors and rooms. You took full advantage of my generosity and why not? You were a very welcome and special addition.

Now look at us. Your failure has made this a cold and desolate place. The dome has suffered as a consequence of your frequent eruptions of frustrated anger, the once clear panes now either broken or smeared with the grime of your betrayal. The sun has not shone into this hallway for a long time, in fact, neither of us can remember when it last did so. The tall pillars are cracked and chipped, testament to your unwarranted assaults on our person as your forked tongue of criticism lashed out at us.

The tiles are fractured and uneven causing you to regularly trip and fall to the floor, the cold slap of your downfall a stark reminder of the change that has gripped this place. You can hear the low moan of the wind as it billows, wuthering and gusting, seeking entrance through the broken windows and dilapidated shutters.

That is the wind isn’t it or is it the tortured protestations of the shades and spectres which still haunt this hallway? Sometimes you see them, the forlorn figures which glide haplessly along the dirty passageways, heads bowed as they seem to be seeking something. Whenever you see them you feel a strange sense of familiarity and understanding with their plight even though you are unsure who they are. No doubt a consequence of the empathic traits which still cause you to remain here.

I let you walk these beautiful corridors. I allowed you to marvel at the statues, the ornaments which adorned the walls and alcoves, mesmerising you with their beauty. You felt loved, you felt content and you felt safe as you walked this place never needing or wanting to step back through the door that you once entered all that time ago.

Now you are sat on the icy floor, your hands clasped together and raised in a gesture of contrition and pleading. Your face is etched with wounding woe and the lines of desperation evidence your determination to remain.

I brandish the heavy iron key that will unlock the dark door which looms over you and which will reveal the doorway to the cold, uncaring and harsh world beyond, a world you have no desire to return to. I hold the key as I stand over you watching you and although I hear your voice I cannot discern what you are saying. You struggle to your feet, weakness pulling at you as you pull down the sleeve of the tattered garment which you wear and you begin to rub at a nearby pillar.

You spit on it and frantically try to remove the grime as if you are showing me that the damage can somehow be undone. You turn and look at me, hand still moving back and forth and I see that eternal optimism in your eyes. That look which once looked like paradise to me and now only serves to reinforce your selfishness in wanting to remain here after everything you have done and everything you have not done as you let me down. Again. The distortion that has surrounded your voice has gone and now I can hear you as you are pointing to the windows and the doors which hang from their hinges, holes smashed into them.

” This place was once so beautiful and you have let it fall into neglect, why have you done this? I just do not understand. I helped you keep it shining and in a pristine condition but then you just lost interest, you would not work with me anymore and it began to fall into decline. It was too much for me to maintain alone though heaven knows I tried, I really did. Not only did you not help me but you then started to hinder me, stopping me from carrying out my tasks, holding me back and diverting me.”

Why are you saying such things to me? Why are you seeking to pin the blame on me? Why are you trying to make me responsible for the demise of this once grand place? I shake my head and point the key at you, a clear signal of my intent. Your face twists and the tears start to form in your eyes. Perhaps they might fall into the now dry fountain and bring about restoration. Does such restoration hang from your sadness?

“Don’t make me leave, please I do not want this to end,” you plead, your eyes, which once shone with delight and joy, which are now glazed as your fear of abandonment starts to rise.

“This does not have to happen, ” you continue as you place a hand against my arm, ” let me stay, I only want us to be happy, to be as we once were. Surely we can do that? Our laughter once echoed through this place and it can again.

We can repair the damage, it is not about who caused it, I can put that to one side, I just want us to be together and for us to rebuild what we once had. We did it once, I know we can again, let us join forces and re-create that wonderful time once more, let us admit sunshine and clean away the dirt and the hurt that seeks to envelope this place. We can fix the glass, mend the doors, scrub the floors and clean and tidy and make good. We can do it. I know we can. I can sense it deep inside you, I know it to be the case.”

Your words are impressive and burgeoning with hope. Perhaps it can be done but then you let us down and for that you must pay the price. That momentary consideration of allying with you and recovering what we once had is dispelled. We shake our head.

“It cannot be recovered. There is no hope to do so,” we say slowly.

A tear spills down your cheek and hovers on your chin as if unsure of where to go.

“Then let us at least pretend that we walk through gilded and fragrant halls once more. Please? We can pretend can’t we?”

Yes, we can pretend. It is all we ever do.

181 thoughts on “Let’s Pretend

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  2. NarcAngel says:

    Who retained the attorney you consulted with? Was it someone that previously represented either you or your mother, or someone neutral that you both agreed upon?

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi NA, I finally found your comment, saw it this morning but lost it. Anyway, it is my mother’s attorney, retained by my mother. We had worked with this attorney 3 years ago when we had the agreement written up regarding our living together, me caring for my parents in exchange for the house etc. I have enjoyed working with her and do believe her to be looking out for both of us, she doesn’t want anything bad to happen to my mother, her paying client, and so I believe will deal fairly with me, though of course, I have been suckered before. Realizing this is a risk, I could seek council from another, just to be sure all is well. Perhaps I will do that…

      I would be happy to hear any thoughts you have regarding any of this.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I don’t know the specifics of your situation, but I have trust issues, especially where money can have influence over outcome.

        I would ask myself: If I were the attorney, and even if what has been laid out is within legal parameters, if there is an edge or benefit to one party over the other (even by omission for instance), wouldn’t I be obliged to find favour with the client who is paying and with whom I have had previous dealings?

        I would consult with a separate attorney myself (with no indication to mother or anyone else) to lay it all out, and consider their council on what would produce the most favourable outcome for ME. Then I would feel able to make a fully informed decision.

        Also, is there anything stopping your mother from nullifying this current agreement at any time with or without your knowledge?

        1. A Victor says:

          NA, thank you for your comment, I will find an attorney for a consult just to confirm that I am safe, and take steps if not. I will check into the last questions then also. Thank you much.

  3. PrideNDefiance says:

    Hi everybody,

    This is my first time to post in the comments, but I really look forward to being a part of this community.

    I have a question for HG, but I’d appreciate any other feedback from everybody here. Some years ago, I met a narc while he was in my city on business. I thought he was crazy attractive, smart, the usual “bright and shiny” narc qualities. One thing led to another, and we hooked up the evening I met him. He messaged me a day or two later thanking me for a wonderful night, I replied likewise, and I thought that was the end of it.

    About 9 months later, I get an email from him saying sorry he hasn’t messaged as his company was growing and he was busy, etc. It just so happened that I was going to be in his city about 2 weeks from when he sent that message and we agreed to meet.

    He picked me up at my hotel, had a pleasant dinner, and went back to his place. I thought things were going fine and we were even quite flirty and complimentary to each other. Then out of nowhere he says something implying (not directly, as he is a cowardly Middle Mid-ranger TypeA) that I was promiscuous or slutty. I was shocked by that statement, I didn’t get angry or try to defend myself, and I just tried to pretend he didn’t say anything. Later as the make-out session was progressing, he apologized saying he didn’t have an erection, and a while later slept with his back to me.

    I know this is devaluation, but I thought that IPSS shelf variety had an extended golden period and don’t suffer devaluations this early in the dynamic. Why would he devalue me the SECOND time he met me, even after not seeing me for nearly a year? I would have thought the fuel would still be fresh and potent for a narc. Some clarity would be most appreciated. Thank you all.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Welcome PrideNDefiance

      1. Why were you continuing to engage with a known narcissist? Why did you not implement no contact?
      2. His oblique remark was made as a Corrective Devaluation. You threatened control and his narcissism caused him to respond in that manner in order to assert control over you and draw fuel.
      3. The absence of an erection and sleeping with his back to you may not necessarily have been devaluation. He may not have been able to remain erect and he may just sleep that way. If they are devaluing behaviours it is because again you threatened his control and he asserted control through these Corrective Devaluation responses.
      IPSS Shelf variety receive Corrective Devaluations within a generally elongated golden period. If you require further understanding, organise a consultation.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hello PrideNDefiance,

        Welcome to the blog!

        Don’t you just love some double standards on a second date? I love the way he felt entitled enough to criticise you for the very same thing he was engaging in himself! He clearly thinks he is a catch, but didn’t quite have the stamina to back it up by the sounds of things!

        Strange question, was he older than you?

    2. A Victor says:

      Welcome! 😉

    3. Another Cat says:

      Welcome PrideNDefiance

      Narcissists seem to punish everybody for being with them, during devaluation. At least that is the effect on the victim. Before I learnt about narcissism, I often wondered and second guessed myself.

      “If I act like this and this and this, THEN men will respect me as a human being!”

      Well that echochamber of thoughts got too many lines and dots to join together. Knowledge about narcissists feels a relief.

  4. BC30 says:

    Njfilly, I’m locked out of the private forums too. I thought it was just me.

  5. susano says:

    Roadkill of narcs all have one thing in common and that is lack of self respect. Don’t focus on the narc, focus on yourself. Take accountability for your own weaknesses/magical thinking/stupid decisions/neediness, etc, that put you in their grip and then learn how to change yourself.

  6. Kiki says:

    Hi everyone

    Just wondering has anyone any tips on coping with the pain that comes up in no contact .
    I know it’s my addiction, my emotional thinking but how to overcome those very sad moments when God forbid you miss the Narc .
    This is happening a bit the last few days .
    We haven’t spoken since last November, but I broke no contact about 7 weeks ago which was humiliating , but I am holding strong now 7 weeks in but some days I feel awful that I will never ever speak to Narc again .It’s abandonment issues I think .


    1. list says:

      “any tips on coping with the pain that comes up in no contact,”

      1. Feel the pain and ride through it.
      2. Read and listen to HG.
      3. Read the comments.
      4. Repeat (don’t rinse).

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Hi Kiki, not an easy one to answer as we all have different ‘coping’ mechanisms. Is there something that ‘triggered’ these thoughts / emotions to ‘flare-up’ again to make you feel / think this way? I would suggest that is where you can start, look into yourself and ask yourself why are you coming up with this question? Also ask yourself, how did you manage to go NC initially (despite having difficulty to do so). I understand what you mean by ‘abandonment issues’ & I can also relate to that (not from my past intimate relationships with narcissists) – by mother. When you say “some days I feel awful that I will never ever speak to Narc again” – that is something that the majority of us go through – I thought that myself but stopped thinking / feeling that way around a year ago, I suppose – I have not really thought about it. It is obviously your ET levels that have not had the opportunity to drop low enough for you to maintain the same mindset. I know it is not easy but hang in there and do not give in to your ET. Talk to a friend that has absolutely no connection to the narcissist in question. Keep coming back here, talk to us. Read more of HG’s delightful & entertaining work, listen to some of his videos. Stay strong, lass.

    3. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Kiki,

      Well done for staying strong for 7 weeks. That’s a real achievement.
      Honestly, I ached for a long time. I would hazard a guess most of us do. I think the decision to go No Contact comes first and then we process that decision. We know logically that it is the right thing to do but those emotional bonds don’t all just immediately dissolve on that basis.

      For me there were a few really strong bonds. Promises made, my general approach to people in terms of doing for them what they have done for me. HG smashed apart this sense of owing. He took the time to answer a couple of my questions on YouTube and it was probably the strongest bond that was cut by HG’s answer.

      Different bonds came to light at different times through the healing process. Some I recognised and worked out myself, some I needed help with. Over time you cut each one. There will be some unresolved bonds and I think it’s these that cause the ache. Things in the background. Things that are a part of you sometimes rather than actions of the narc. Time to do over again, I would probably have consulted with HG. I don’t trust easily. I rely on my own judgement, this might have delayed my progress looking back on it. Consult at regular intervals if you can so these bonds that you find can be dealt with as they arise.

      It does ache. It aches because we are as we are and actually that humanity of ours is to be celebrated. It’s this which makes us fully whole again in the end. Its ok to go to your corner sometimes Kiki but try not to stay there too long. Use the blog, talk, keep reading the articles to maintain your No Contact resolve and let the empaths here do what they do best. We can haul you up any time you need a break.

      You’re doing great. You will continue to do great because you have the very best support from HG and from the amazing empaths that congregate in this place. Xx

    4. Claudia says:

      Aww this is so sad and relatable. Big hugs!!!!
      Don’t blame yourself. It sounds like you know exactly what is going on.
      In addition to HG maybe read on Quora. I found the stories helped to reduce the person I knew to a type, one of millions, not a special soulmate meant for me but an evil chameleon with predictable behaviors experienced by so many others like myself. It helped me to get stronger, to avoid reaching out and falling back into that horrible void.
      Try out new things, distract yourself with new challenges, hobbies, people, anything that will take your mind off of him. Remember that what you miss most is the way they made you feel, and that is like a drug, an addiction. You need to allow yourself time and space to detox but the allure may always be there to some degree. Believe in yourself. If you found your way here you can do it. Find other things to fill the space they left, perhaps nothing exactly will, because this is a serious trauma to have experienced, but you will be a new, better person on the other side.

    5. A Victor says:

      Hi Kiki, I leaned on the blog here a lot right after I escaped. It was 3-4 months before I started feeling substantially less tempted to reach out to him. I still miss him once in a while and I’m now at 6 months out. Hang in there, you can do it!

    6. Z - zwartbolleke says:

      Ow Kiki, it is hard, unfortunately there is no magic pill…
      Take it one day at a time, don’t burden your thoughts with things as “I will never speak to him again”, only consider today, make today a good day without thinking how will I cope tomorrow, one day at a time, put every effort in today, spoil yourself: today, be generous to yourself: today, do things that distract you: today, and don’t occupy too much with tomorrow. And than the next day: repeat!

      But everyone will advise you differently, just because there is no magic pill.

      And repeat to yourself: I accomplished so much already in my life, this too shall pass
      (It shall pass like a kidney stone, but it shall pass 😘)


      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you everyone your advice is really appreciated.You are all so kind and helpful.
        Yes it’s total emotional thinking, sometimes when I feel lonely it comes up stronger .
        I’ve always noticed I start out strong in no contact and gradually weaken over time .It’s strange .
        I have gone six months no contact before but always break around the 3 month mark .
        This Narc was in and out of my life over ten years .
        As you can tell I’ve been here before and went to two definite full cycles of golden period, devalue , disengage with this man .
        I am the one that prompts the hoovers all the time though , I weaken and there I go back again .
        This time is different though his devalue and discard of me was brutal so much so I began having anxiety attacks and depression.

        I will be strong , I know he is a extremely manipulative controlling sneaky lying entitled piece of narcissistic crap with his cold calculating stare and arrogant smirk that sometimes creeped me out .
        Ahh it felt good to write that last bit .

        Thank you again so much .

        Kiki. Xxx

        1. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          Hello Kiki,

          I hope you are doing better.
          Don’t forget we are here for you 💛


        2. A Victor says:

          Hi Kiki,
          Feeling lonely makes my ET get stronger too. I think about emailing the summer narc when it happens. It is rare now, thankfully as my children would be so disappointed if I did that. But sometimes I think “It would be so nice to talk to (_) right now about this or that” but then I snap back to reality and remember that it would just jurn out badly, with me being hurt. But the urges, even now, can be quite strong. I’ve begun spending more time with friends to help not feel lonely. Thankfully the urges are further apart all the time. Oh, or going back on the site where I met him! That’s another thought that’s been happening lately! The forum there was awesome and there were men on it that I could actually talk to. Probably a lot of narcs, so when I think it through, not worth it. But still tempting. Hang in there! You deserve the best!

        3. Empath007 says:

          Keeping my mind as busy as possible always helps me. That has had its challenges during the pandemic.

          Some have told me it’s an unhealthy coping mechanism to “distract” myself, however, it’s always worked best for me.

          Thankfully my life is becoming much busier and it’s very helpful.

          As hard as it is. Try not to beat yourself up about breaking No Contact. Start fresh from today, you’ve got this.

          1. Leigh says:

            Empath007, I was just thinking about you yesterday. I hope you’re doing well.

    7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Kiki,
      Narcs are the only ones that give twice
      Pain when your with them and pain when your not

      It all depends on your pain threshold and how much your willing to take !
      He’s not hurting one bit, you are

      It’s ok to abandon a narc btw

      The pain is slow release but when it does subside, it feels amazing !
      Stay connected and stay focused here, everyone will help you!

      You’ve made it this far Kiki, keep going, you can do this
      We truly care about you
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Kiki says:

        Awwh Bubbles thank you .
        It’s like a lot of things are triggers even the weather 🥴
        I just get weird when I have dreams about him.
        Is that a bad sign I wonder or just the subconscious clearing through stuff.

        Kiki x

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Kiki,
          The biggest hurdle is “forgiving” yourself
          “Detachment” is also another huge challenge

          We’ve all dreamt about our narcs and what they’ve done to us …. very normal ….however, we dont want them turning into nightmares…..do we ?
          There’s no bad signs about it precious one, everything is for a reason, one biggy being……..you’ll never let anyone treat you like that again !

          Pretend your brain is your Facebook page and your “unfriending” those who drain you and sap all your energy.
          Then block !
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          Ps Mr Bubbles and I are sitting outside over Easter celebrating 🍾 life (with the family), just sitting amongst the garden looking at the bees and butterflies, marvelling and admiring all the colour and beauty …….the simple things in life are often the best ☺️🦋🌹

    8. Fiddleress says:

      Hello Kiki
      Well done on holding strong, because that is a real battle. Like most people here, I can totally relate to your pain, and hurting at the idea that you will never speak to the narcissist again. I was hoovered on Christmas Day (although I had made sure he couldn’t contact me, but there was a technical problem with my blocked numbers), after eleven months of no contact, and for the next two weeks at least I went through the pain that you describe. What helped to stop that pain was to force myself to remember all the horrible moments with him,and the shame that I’d felt at putting up with the crap and not escaping sooner.
      I also listened again to HG’s The Final Battle: How to Stop Thinking About the Narcissist, which is what had helped me so much in the first place, a year ago. Have you got this material?
      All the best to you Kiki, stay strong, and let us know how it goes.

    9. SaltMother says:

      Dear Kiki, you’ve suffered a profound loss and there’s no way around the grieving process. It takes a lot time, but it does slowly get easier as we work through it. Sharing with others who’ve experienced N. abuse can be incredibly helpful, since most other people have no real idea what NPD is or how it can ream out the lives of those who get sucked (or born) into it. It’s a life-altering experience, to say the least.

      I’ve been having some lingering agony around one of my family Ns, but getting logical with HG’s advice has helped me immensely. Also, following his advice to purge my space of all the little totems of love, the gifts,(the sweet handful of acorns they gave you on that lovely fall walk yrs ago, the quartz crystal necklace) …. get rid of everything that pings your heart for the N. and create a safe, calm, logical zone for yourself in your home so you’re not constantly emotionally triggered. That’s helped me, too, but you may need to get further through your mourning process before you’re ready for that. I was ready and parted with items i formerly cherished so deeply for the “love” they represented. Once I realized and understood the “shelfing” dynamic and the “mirroring” concept, things really clicked for me, like never before, and those cherished items quickly started losing their preciousness. It was all a mirage.You feel the searing loss, but what you’re not feeling yet is the sense of lightness and liberation that comes from the absence of drama and pain, and being able to find yourself again and grow. Keep listening to HG’s videos and reading his stuff. Get your logic on. Give yourself plenty of time to heal and mourn. Wishing you well on your healing journey. <3 SM

    10. MsCynthia says:

      Hi Kiki, I’m late to the party, but have dealt with a similar loss. When missing that Someone, I remind myself that it is emotion. Emotions are transient and they pass. Sometimes I say out loud, ‘I’m feeling _____. This will pass.’ For me, it dissolves the negative emotion like magic. It works for me — don’t know if it will for you, but FWIW, there it is. It’s been 8 years no contact.

    11. LG says:

      Hi, Kiki,

      I feel your pain. It is as if your heart is breaking in a way that you know it will never be put together again right? I felt that too, and trust me, IT GETS BETTER. TIME does make the intensity die Dien… you just have to keep DISTRACTING yourself. Do.NOT let your mind play the fantadies ir three good times. Stop sll thoughts of the matc by doing diverging, anything else. Listening to HG’s voice is the bedt thing to get you through. I am so incredibly comforted by his voice and you just have to keep pumping and pumping and pumping and pumping his words into your brain. The best way that I have found is this: go to his YouTube channel and start listening to videos. I save them in playlists the ones that I know apply particularly to my situation. Play thenover and over and over whenever you are tempted to break no contact. Listen to HG’s voice. D Get the addiction triple package and the final battle from the vault, and read read read HG’s writings. It is not expensive amd worth every penny.

  7. Truthseeker6157 says:

    I’ve always found this article sad. I identify with the IPPS, the sadness and what she is trying to achieve.

    This time something else strikes me though. “It cannot be recovered. There is no hope to do so,” we say slowly.

    The ‘we’ being both the false self and the true self, talking in unison. Narcissism is a defence mechanism. The false self is designed to protect the more vulnerable true self. I was never completely confident about the Creature and what exactly the Creature represented. I still think the Creature is a combination of Matrinarc and every negative comment HG has ever received or will receive. All blended into one negative and abusing voice.

    The false self keeps the Creature down, locked in the chasm, fuelling to keep the walls of the chasm raised and intact. If the Creature were to emerge then so would the true self. The true self and the Creature have to be separate entities but they appear to be housed separately within the same chasm.

    In the video ‘The Chasm’ as the Creature emerges in the shape of Matrinarc so too does the true self. The false self is less able to protect the true self as fuel levels are low, Dr O further threatens control and the walls of the chasm begin to lower. We see both the Creature and the true self appear together.

    If HG hears the Creature then one might suppose that he also hears the true self. I don’t think he can gain access to one without the other.

    1. A Victor says:

      Wow Truthseeker, you really put my reaction to this into words in a powerful way, much better than I could have. I relate to her too, so heartbreaking, everything we try to keep going is fake but because it’s the only reality we can see, we have to try. So I get the pleading, even after she’s told it can’t be, we can’t accept that, no, it has to be, it has to continue. Otherwise, we have lost everything. So sad. So sad in part because we don’t realize that we will still have everything, we still will be okay.

      Why do you think the Creature and the true self can’t be one and the same? Just curious.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        AV, in relation to your question – maybe view it in similar aspect to those who have multiple personalities?

        1. A Victor says:

          Asp Emp, that is an interesting idea, I’m going to give that some thought. Thank you!

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you AV 🙂

        2. lonerose99 says:

          Multiple personalities – yep that’s exactly how I viewed my narc. I walked on eggshells in the last strains of the relationship because I never knew if/when he’d flip to his vile verbal abuse.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey AV,

        When you listen to the intro to ‘the Creature’ (the intro to the book), the Creature is definitely described as the false self. The problem with that though, is that the false self essentially is the young HG, the child who was, before the narcissism stepped in to create a new version, one who was powerful and could better deal with the world. The true self therefore was not unkind. The true self wouldn’t attack or criticise. Plenty of other people in HG’s life have attacked and criticised though and so in my mind the true self has to be separate from the Creature but co exists along side it.

        When the Creature does show itself in the articles or in the video ‘the Chasm’ you often hear Matrinarc or, the effects of Matrinarc. You hear real venom and criticism. Matrinarc often shows up first. Then HG as the false self, struggles to hold on to control and the true self pushes through. So there’s a difference between the description of the Creature and the reality of how it manifests.

        I suppose you could lump them together and say the true self is part of the Creature. Both are locked away, both show up at the same time, but when you think why the narcissism forms, what the false self is designed to do, this doesn’t sit well for me. The true self should logically be set apart from the criticism that is the Creature.

        “He thinks that it is he that should be let out blinking into the light ( suggests true self) but he should not, it should not, she should not.’ ( suggests the critics / abusers).

        To be dismissive and feel hatred towards a part of himself that he perceives as weak would make sense if you were HG. I question the truth of that though. That’s HG’s perception. His grouping together of all things threatening his control. The reality is surely that the true self was never a threat to anyone or anything. Hence the need for the self defence mechanism that is narcissism to be activated in the first place. So should the true self be part of the creature? Or is it actually constrained and scorned in the chasm, beside the true Creature, the voice of Matrinarc and every critic.

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi TS, thank you for this, I haven’t had a chance to listen to “The Creature” again yet but i will be as soon as possible. I really appreciate the detailed thought process you laid out here. The book isn’t out yet, correct? I also love your new pic!

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi AV,

            Thank you. I do think about things a lot. Then I go trawling for more evidence. I listened to the video ‘The Chasm’ the other night and I thought ‘We’re all missing something here.’ The good doctors, HG, the readers, all of us. Something is just niggling at me, on the edges of my mind and I can’t quite form the full thought or explain why I think it is important.

            Perhaps it is already solved and explained in the forthcoming book ( no, the book isn’t out yet). Perhaps things need looking at from a different angle. If the Creature was broken into constituent parts, could some parts be addressed and reconciled? If they were would the absolute need for control in all things be lessened? If it was lessened just by a percentage, would this assist a more pro social approach? Would it help as opposed to the assumption that it would hinder? Such is the way my mind works ha ha! I’m fortunate that people listen and think along with me. I’m really touched when they do. Xx

          2. A Victor says:

            TS, these are some of the same questions I have had. They are the ones that keep me fighting that it is set and cannot be changed. “The Chasm” brought me up short also, for a variety of reasons. It has been interesting food for thought. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I know what you mean there. I think I view narcissists as a group of individuals that will never change. They certainly will never care, as HG points out, the cake is baked, you can’t inject emotional empathy and even if you could, he wouldn’t take the injection because doesn’t see the value in it. Fair point.

            I do however think there are amendments that HG is in a position to make and only on the basis of his awareness. He has awareness of himself and his narcissism but equally as important he has awareness of the empath mindset. He sees the similar reactions to the similar situations through the blog and through private consultations. He recognises the authenticity of these reactions and so in his own relationships he can contextualise the similar reactions of the IPPS. This is where the wiggle room lies for me but only with HG, not with the narcissist group as a whole. It’s a very specific set of circumstances.

            Pro social in my view, requires an intermediary step that sits between perceived threat to control and the assertion of control in response. A buffer. If a threat to control even in low fuel circumstances had less impact in terms of that sinking feeling, the threat of the creature etc, this would surely also support an ability to implement this extra step or buffer.

            I don’t think there will ever be a cure for narcissism per se. I’m convinced there won’t be. I do think there are advantages for both HG and the IPPS if the need for control over every single perceived threat was reduced by a percentage. The easy wins if you like. HG doesn’t react instinctively. Occasionally perhaps. He usually has time to select a manipulation. He therefore has time to de select too. This is the area that I think is most exciting in terms of possible amendment.

            I have questions about the whole session with Doctor O as described in ‘From the Chasm’ For example, has HG ever been given a point of focus within the room? A clock on the desk, a picture on the wall? How long was it before Dr O stood up and moved towards him? Did Dr O verbalise she was still there? If not, why not?All kinds of questions.

          4. Fiddleress says:

            AV, I have just read your post about your mother not putting your name on the house. I am so sorry to hear that you are going through this! Just the thought that you were afraid of being homeless one day is appalling. I do hope that the attorney can help tomorrow. I can understand your hatred, and probably the sheer exhaustion you must feel after dealing with those narcissists! Let us know how it goes, and I am glad to know that you have turned to HG to assist you.
            Sending plenty of support your way. This is a rough time you are going through, but it will pass.
            All the best to you, AV. XX

          5. A Victor says:

            Thank you Fiddleress, I really appreciate the support. I will let you know how the call goes.

          6. Fiddleress says:

            Yes! Well done AV, and I am so glad to hear that all will be well for you after all, what a relief it must be for you!
            The rewriting of history by narcs is something I find infuriating, or at least I did when I didn’t realise it was a staple of narcissism; in this instance I suppose it is simply ludicrous, and laughable.
            Thanks for the good news!

          7. Fiddleress says:

            AV, I have just read your comment in which you say you feel horrible for wishing your mother dies before it comes to a point when you have to pay taxes on the sale of the house. I know why you feel that way (you are an empath), but really, this doesn’t sound horrible to me. Remember, as HG says, she does not deserve the title of ‘mother’. She made your life hell, and you are trying to get by as best you can on every level, so it is only fair that you should at least receive something from her being your genitor. If anything, not feeling bad would mean your ET is low enough, and that is the best that can happen.
            My ‘mother’ tried to make sure my brother and I would not inherit anything, but that was impossible by law, we had to receive at least part of the inheritance. She, just like my father, had no empathy whatsoever for us till the very end (of course!). No bad feelings needed.
            I know it is easier said than done but you should feel all the least bad about it since you are actually helping her!

          8. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, thank you for your words of encouragement and support. It is a new thought for me to essentially disassociate from her as my mother. I was quite distant prior to moving in together, seeing her infrequently, but still thinking of her as “mom”. I actually like the idea of not thinking of her as such, it helps with the ANC. It helps when there must be an interaction to be able to remember it’s not personal and to walk away asap. It helps to read my post it notes that because she abused me, she could not have loved me etc. But, you know how it is to actually tell someone you hope a person dies in a specific place or manner for your own benefit? That’s the part I’m struggling with, I feel guilty for saying it “out loud”, here on the blog. I have decided not to hold back on living my life though, and that is going to be an interesting thing, to me anyway. And I am glad to have the decision made. It’s time to get moving forward. Thank you again Fiddleress, I really appreciate your words and your encouragement!

          9. Fiddleress says:

            You are more than welcome, AV, and I am pleased if it helps!

          10. Fiddleress says:

            And that should have read “you should feel all the LESS (not ‘least’) bad”. I thought it didn’t seem quite right as I typed it, but couldn’t put my finger on it (brain went: superlative after ‘the’, you’re ok. Brain is taking a holiday, I see).
            Anyway, do not feel bad!

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Feel no guilt. She feels no guilt about having you give up your independence and enter into the current arrangement that was engineered for her control and benefit.

          12. A Victor says:

            Thank you NA, I will try to take your words to heart. I will take your words to heart. I will. Thank you.

        2. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          Thank you for your thoughts and insights, you gave me a new view on the true self – the creature. We never considered them as two separated identities but your view makes sense.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Z,

            You know me, over thinking, similar to you but less productive! Ha ha! I tried to get into KHG a few days ago to see if you had posted your summary but my password wouldn’t work. I’ll retry. I thought perhaps as HG was so busy, he closed it for a short period. Did you post in there?

            I read your note to Kiki too, you’re right. One day at a time.

            I hope you are well Z x

          2. njfilly says:


            I also can’t get into the KHG forum. It started a while back with not being able to post comments, which didn’t really bother me since I don’t comment there often. Now I can’t even open the forum. I’ve tried many things but I can’t get it to open.

            I also had problems with Dark Cupid and the last Q&A as well. I guess these are wordpress issues.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for letting me know. It’s not just me then! I’m sure HG will check and reset the forums soon if there is an issue. My assumption is work load prioritisation. So much excellent new material being produced just now!

            I haven’t listened to Dark Cupid in a while now. I’ll go back and review those. I still have episodes to get. I was pacing myself!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            The password for DC is as before.
            The password for the Knowing HG Forum has been changed, those who require it should email me for it.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ok HG thank you, didn’t want to be a bother!

          6. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            Hello TS,

            “You know me, over thinking, similar to you but less productive!”

            Over thinking? Moi?
            Hahaha! Ok maybe a little bit!

            Yes the password changed but meanwhile you will have received the new one I suppose.

            To answer your questions, I will insert this link of my comment to WhoCares, so I don’t need to repeat myself:


            I am well, and you?
            Oh, since a week ago I also – finally – participated in the Dark Cupid series. So now I can join you in the forum there as well!

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Z,

            Thank you for the link. Losing comments is a nightmare. I do the same, I can remember a comment but not where I read it. I had a very quick search for you. Was it under the article ‘Come One, Come All’ May 2019?

            I’m not sure exactly what you are looking for but used my imagination! Took a leap ha ha!

            I’m really glad you are diving in to Dark Cupid. I posted there today. If you haven’t got it yet. You will like ‘Pawn’. It links to KHG. You analyse so thoroughly your ideas on Dark Cupid will be really interesting to read I’m sure.

            I haven’t got my password to KHG. I’ll request. Excited to read your post!

            Thank you, I’m really well. I’m clear headed these days, calm.


        3. Leigh says:

          I love these discussions. I’m sorry for jumping in. I just wanted to offer my opinion. If you want, you can tell me to mind my business, lol.

          Here’s how I see it. I see the Creature as the true self. At least, that’s how I feel the narcissist (the false self) views it. I also think that true self is the child before narcissism is developed. I think they are one in the same and we just view it differently then the narcissist does. I think the narcissism sees the little boy or little girl as the Creature because they feel the insecurity and the weakness of the child and it must be a creature because the narcissist (the false self) is not insecure. They think they are the best thing since sliced bread and that creature (child) is trying to topple them, trying to make them feel weak too. How dare they?

          That’s my perception. In living with it for over 50 years, that’s how I see it manifest in my husband, my best friend & my mother.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Silly goose! Of course you can jump in! I have no real life narcissists to observe currently so your input is interesting.

            You’re right, there’s little doubt that HG places the true self as part of the Creature and I’m sure for the similar reasons that you describe. The difference is HG’s level of awareness and his continuing evolution in awareness. The Creature drives current behaviours in many respects so understanding exactly how it is constructed and where the true self fits within this might support small adjustments that make a difference.

            It’s such an important aspect of narcissism and it’s really difficult to visualise. HG’s description in ‘the Chasm’ does get me closer to visualising the impact of the Creature but I still can’t feel it in a way that I can make real sense of it.

            I don’t know. As I said to AV, something just niggles me about it and I can’t explain why.

          2. Leigh says:

            TS, I agree. There’s alot I still don’t understand. That’s why I love these discussions, they open my eyes to things I miss.

          3. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Leigh, exactly how I see it too. I’m really enjoying reading everyone’s interpretation on this. Thanks all for sharing your thoughts.

            It does creep me out though, the thought of what lies beneath.

          4. Leigh says:

            I agree! I love seeing different perspectives

          5. A Victor says:

            Ah, Leigh, thank you. This is how I have seen it in my mother, glaringly, for as long as I can remember, you just put that together for me. She’s so afraid of her former weakness returning that she has to be seen as dominant in all situations. The really strange thing is that she can’t wait to be taken care of, like my dad was at the end of his life. She thought once he passed, I would put all that energy on her, even though she is no where near needing that amount of caretaking. It’s a form of weakness but a form in which she is in control I suppose. Thank you again.

            She ordered me yesterday not to buy garlic without the roots and whiter than usual. It’s been bleached and grown in sewer water. I don’t “order” my kids such things, I might tell them what I heard and, if I did, then would for sure leave them to decide what they will about it. I walked away from her, no point in further communication. ANC is a blessing. But I have noticed that the longer the ANC goes on, the more this type of communication happens when she has an opportunity. She’s not even trying to be “nice” anymore, to get me to come around more often.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            AV….. “She ordered me yesterday not to buy garlic without the roots and whiter than usual. It’s been bleached and grown in sewer water”….. seriously?! WTF! It made me laugh though.

            Her control is threatened hence the type of codswallop you’re getting from her. Ageing Narcissist springs to mind….. Just order normal garlic and paint it white…… ho hum.

          7. A Victor says:

            Haha, Asp Emp, I’m glad that made you laugh! Your “paint it white” made me laugh! Thank you!

          8. Leigh says:

            AV. I think how your mom gains control is becauseshe can make you take care of her. You not taking care of her is why she is devaluing you. Shes sulking right now because you’re not giving in.

            Thats just my opinion though.

          9. A Victor says:

            I agree. Let her sulk, not my problem, haha! I have to focus on not talking to others about her or thinking about her. The days I don’t see her this is much easier. It is most days, thankfully.

          10. Leigh says:

            #facts, AV. Let her sulk. My mom is in a nursing home and I haven’t seen her since March 2020 because of COVID. I cannot tell you how thankful I am for that. She sulks and complains incessantly and she sucks the life at of me. She just called me yesterday to tell me that I don’t care about her and how can I be that way after everything she’s done for and how much she has taken care of me. I couldn’t help myself, I busted out laughing on the phone. I said to her, in what universe did you take care of me? At that point, I knew she was just looking for fuel, I said, I gotta go Ma. I’ll talk to you later. Then I hung up. I instantly went to how my brothers and I would go to bed hungry. Not because we didn’t have money. My grandparents were very wealthy. It was because she just couldn’t be bothered with shopping or cooking or anything else for that matter. I had to hang up or I was gonna explode.

          11. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I am so sorry you experienced that as a child. It must’ve been absolutely horrible. COVID has been a blessing in several ways that I am aware of, including this, with your mother. I am glad for you to have had the respite from her. I understand the “exploding”, I often have to walk (run) away from my mother, when we actually interact.

          12. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I decided to write a bit more in response to your comment here. Mostly because I was talking with a friend who is suffering from extremely high ET right now and she got mine going. She became very concerned about my situation. Without going into to too much, my mother was, when I was a child, quite the opposite of yours in some ways, she always had 3 squares on the table, she did all the housework, shopping and cooking and everything else. Now she doesn’t want to do any of it. But she refuses to put my name on the house. If she goes into a home, it will be gone. We have a call with “her” elder attorney on Thurs to discuss this. I am quite concerned that given the ANC I’ve been practicing, almost since my dad died in Nov, that she will lead them to believe I’ve been neglectful and thus her excuse for not signing the house over. This would be an excuse only, my kids know she will never do it. Well, my friend asked what HG recommends (yes, this is the friend who’s been resistant to HG!! Win!), GOSO of course, and proceeded to say that if the appropriate steps aren’t taken (ie-I’m put on the house), I should GOSO, tell them I’ll be back when she actually needs help and the house will be signed over to me at that time, in that event. So, I am now reading Escape too. It is a lot and very emotional. I feel very cheated by both my mother and her attorney. I can’t afford an attorney of my own so, I will just leave. It will be yet another major financial hit at the hand of a narcissist but better that then my emotional health being destroyed again. I am just starting to get on top of it ET) I feel. I actually hate my mother now, I have never felt such venom toward another human as I feel right now toward her. It has been dawning on me that since we moved in here, prior to my learning of narcissism, that all the times I told her my biggest concern was being left homeless at the end of this, she was gaining fuel. All I ever have tried to do was make her happy. And my dad. And my ex. And they have just taken and taken and taken. I cannot take it any more. That call on Thurs may be a turning point. I hope it goes well for me but I am quite concerned. I wanted to share this as we are in the same boat in a way, both contemplating the future. Thanks for listening.

          13. Leigh says:

            AV, don’t beat yourself up too much. You didn’t know what they were and you wanted to help them. May I also suggest you read “Your Fault” by Mr. Tudor. I think its one of his must read books. Nobody talks about it but it really helped me understand the narcissist’s perspective a little bit more. Everything is our fault or more importantly, everything has to be our fault.

          14. A Victor says:

            Leigh, thank you for the reminder of that book, I purchased it and started it a couple months ago but didn’t finish. I will go back to it, thank you!

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:


            As a non ACON I don’t usually but in to discussions about parental Narcs. I wanted to ask though, have you had the opportunity to speak to HG about this specific situation with your mother? Do you have a game plan for your meeting tomorrow?

          16. A Victor says:

            Truthseeker, I always value your input, please don’t hesitate, when it comes to me anyway. I have spoken to HG about some of this but not Thurs specifically.

            My game plan is to ask the attorney the question of what happens if my mother goes into a home and the house is not in my name. That’s the starting point. When the legal papers were drawn up, my understanding was that I would work for two years from the date of move in caring for my parents and then the home would become mine. Based on this information, I sold the home I already owned, for a undervalue amount, to my daughter. I then invested the money for a retirement fund, I have no retirement as my ex spent everything, I raised the kids and did not work etc. It has now been 3 years in May and my dad lived 6 months past that two year point. She has been unwilling to do it. Since my dad passed, I have been helping with half the mortgage and utilities. I am hoping not to have to get into any of this, just see how the attorney responds to my question first. I did not realize, if what my mother is saying now is correct, that I had to work for two years for each of them to keep them out of a home before it would become mine. I don’t even care if she’s still on it also, as long as my name being on it protects it from a care home taking it or it being split between my siblings and I since I have done the work and this agreement was with me. I still shop for her, keep things clean etc, so it’s not like I don’t help her now. I just don’t go up and talk to her if there is not an actual reason to. A long answer, I am sorry. But, this does help me, to see it in black and white. I will probably have this in front of me as I speak to them, so to keep on track and not lose my head. Thanks for asking!

          17. Leigh says:

            Oh my gosh AV, I’m so sorry. Here I am ranting like a lunatic and you have some real fear going on here. I think you telling her that you’re afraid of being homeless is exactly why she’s holding it over your head. The narcissist will deliberately go after your biggest weakness. You hit the nail on the head. She thinks you’ve neglected her and in her head she’s thinking, “why should I put the house in your name, you won’t even take care of me”. I know what I would do in this situation but I know Mr. Tudor wouldn’t agree with me. I think I would kiss her ass until she did put the house in my name. I know that’s not the best thing to do though. The truth is it would be healthier for you to get out from underneath her thumb. I’m so sorry you are going through this. I’m going to send positive thoughts your way. Thursday is going to be a good day for you!

          18. A Victor says:

            Leigh, don’t worry, you’re fine! I will be okay, come what may. My children would never actually allow me to be homeless but I can’t and would never just depend on them to “save” me. I have already known I will be working until I can no longer work, and that’s really fine, I enjoy working very much. In fact, when my ex made me stop it was very difficult for me, a very long period of adjustment. And now of course, in some ways, I wish I wouldn’t have allowed him to insist on such. But I can’t redo it so no reason to revisit it.

            Even prior to my dad dying I was concerned, once things proved as I suspected they would be, I went ANC. I do have fear, to a degree, but at the moment it is really more anger. I feel absolutely deceived. I read those papers over and over, and spoke with that attorney on a number of occasions, to clarify that I would be safe to sell my house. Those papers are what need clarifying now, again, how could I have been so mistaken? I am not entirely an unintelligent person so I am really baffled. And of course, her attorney will see the sweet little old lady with the bitchy daughter if I so much as say a wrong word. My mother will make sure of that. Also, I could kiss her ass, gag, until I was in the ground and she still would never sign it over without pressure apart from me. My daughter even said to me once recently that she will never do it, we all know it’s true. Thank you for the positive thoughts, your last line made me smile.

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for explaining. I totally understand your predicament.
            I know HG could manipulate this situation a thousand times better than me, but given the meeting is today and assuming you get this in time, please remember the following.

            1. Your mother is concentrating on acquiring Control over you and Fuel from you.

            2. The attorney will act only on her behalf and even if sympathetic to your view is a mailbox to your mother. Don’t confide anything you would not want her to know. This includes emotion. (don’t look panicked, upset, fearful)

            3. Your mother sees the world through her lense. Likely believing once your name is on the house she has no leverage. You might cease to help her etc etc.

            When dealing with the attorney, try to remain calm and as detached as possible. You deal in facts and are looking for resolution so that your mother is cared for and you are protected as per the agreement.

            Somewhere along the line it needs to APPEAR that she has control over her future care, whilst you actually GAIN CONTROL over the house.

            I’ll keep it short, don’t want to muddle things before your meeting. You can do this. Stay calm and detached. You are logical, not emotional.


          20. A Victor says:

            TS, going through your comment: 1. check. 2. Note to self! 3. I think I have a way figured, if I point out that, in the event she ended up in a home short term, rehab for example, if they took the house for the bill, she would not have a place to come back to following rehab. Of course, it would more likely be in the form of liens to be paid upon her death or sale of the home, but I don’t need to deal with those either. It is so logical but…she is not.

            Remain calm. Think before speaking. No secrets exposed. No emotion. I am logical.

            Thank you very much TS!!

          21. Leigh says:

            AV, I hope it goes well with the lawyer today. I’m sorry that your mom may not hold up her end of the bargain. You did the right thing by her and she should do the right thing by you. I see a little bit of a silver lining in that you were at least able to take the money from the sale of your house and put it in a retirement fund for yourself. Also, I think there’s a caregiver exemption where they can’t sell the house from underneath you because you’ve been living there as her caregiver. I would ask the lawyer about that.

          22. A Victor says:

            Leigh, thank you so much for your comment and most especially for that last piece. I had not known about that. I will ask the attorney if there is need for it. I am hoping there won’t be.

          23. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello AV,

            You’re welcome! I hope the meeting went well. The other thing I thought about is that you are paying half of the mortgage and utility bills. You are probably doing things like grocery shopping, cleaning, taking her to doctor’s appointments, picking up meds.

            You can cause an immediate problem. If you didn’t pay the mortgage or the utilities then she has an immediate problem that is in the now. She would have to pay a cleaner and a helper to do her legwork. She risks losing the house she lives in and she has no phone or electricity. I expect temperatures will be rising there in the next few weeks won’t they?

            I wouldn’t look too interested. She doesn’t keep to the agreement, that’s fine. Then on she goes. She’ll be needing to reorganise her finances though and she had better start interviewing for home help. I believe home help is rather costly. Immediate problems, in the now. Narcissists act in the now.

            She has leverage, but thinking about it, so do you.

            Risking the State taking her house is pure dumbassery. It’s malicious too, especially given what you have done with your own house based on the agreement. On top of that it makes financial sense for her as well as you so let’s be clear, there is no exploitation here. Don’t feel sorry for her. If she isn’t abiding by the agreement then I would remove ALL support. Starting May 1st. This gives her fair warning to sort herself out.

          24. A Victor says:

            @ TS, Leigh, Asp Emp, Fiddleress,

            Thank you all so much for your encouragement, support and practical ideas re: the call today with my mother’s attorney. I thought of “No emotion” through the whole thing, and “Is it safe to share this?” before speaking! It was great! Your coaching worked!

            It went very much better than I had anticipated! The attorney said I have absolutely no danger of losing the house unless I were to move out and then come back later when my mother actually needs the help. This sounds bad perhaps, but in fact, it really made me feel like I had options. The bigger thing the attorney did was to point out repeatedly how this situation is not at all uncommon with adult children who have chosen to move in to help their aging parents. The specific situation she was referring to was that we have given up our life to make this happen. My mother will never understand that. But, I now know that her attorney does and it was most beneficial to have that acknowledged. She was very supportive of me living my life as I have been, very separately from my mother at this time as my mother does not yet need a lot of help. The other thing was quite similar to what you said Leigh, there are protections in place for me as the caretaker, given by the state as a thank you almost for not putting elderly parents in a home, the house going to said caretaker is one of those protections. It must be for a two year stint, which did start over with my mother when my dad died. But I’m building toward that 2 years right now and any doctor will approve it, they do it all the time. It is so good to know all of this and I can see now that the attorney has done this a lot and really understands what I am going through. There was more but these points were the top ones so I will finish it up. An interesting thing was that my mother hardly said one sentence the entire conversation, most unusual. When I saw her very briefly after the call, it was the most amazing thing yet. I saw play out before my eyes her changing the narrative. In her new narrative, she’d been trying to tell me what was said on the call all along, I just didn’t understand it. Wow. So, tonight I am breathing easier and feeling much more settled. Thank you all again for listening and your support, I appreciate it more than you know. Also, HG, thank you much for moderating all my comments this week, also most appreciated.

          25. Leigh says:

            AV, TS6157 makes a lot of good points. You really do have some leverage. I hope it went well for you today.

          26. Leigh says:

            AV, I’m so happy it went well for you yesterday. Reading this comment made my day. It gives me hope that doing the right thing will ultimately pay off. This is a win for you! Yay! Even if your mom doesn’t want to do the right thing, at least you know the lawyer does.

          27. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I am so glad it went well too! I really appreciate your support and that of the others here, it really helped me focus during the call. That was so nice! And yes, so happy the attorney is so knowledgeable, I didn’t expect that at all! That was a sweet surprise! And now, it doesn’t matter if my mom wants to do the right thing or not, the balance of power has been leveled a bit and I am no longer worried which takes her power in regard to that completely away, it is such a relief! Thank you again!

          28. Leigh says:

            Its nice when the empath actually wins for a change.. I’m glad you have a little bit of piece now.

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello AV,

            I’m glad that the call went well and you feel more positive. It sounds like you have more rights than was first thought.
            Given that your mother is a narcissist, personally I would only be content when the agreement is set in stone so that it cannot later be altered. If two yrs is the magic number then at that point, things need to be formalised so that there is no way for them to be changed. Not wanting to be a rain cloud here but there can be no trust at all where a narcissist is involved. I’m sure you already know that!

          30. A Victor says:

            Yes, I am hoping, this is going to sound horrible, be prepared, and it is in no way a threat, that she dies without having to get to that point. The reason being is that another piece, which I learned on the call, is that if this happens, there is no Capitol Gains Tax when I go to sell it. If it is signed over prior to her death, there is CGT at any future sale, and it is quite hefty. I feel like a terrible person for writing this but this house is literally what I will have to live on some day. But, the attorney is aware of things now too and I am placing my trust in her rather than my mother, which does feel much safer. Thank you again, your input was invaluable during the call!

          31. Leigh says:

            AV, try not to be too hard on yourself. Its incredibly hard to have empathy for the narc. I get it. We all get it.

          32. Truthseeker6157 says:


            No, it doesn’t sound horrible to me. It sounds like you have accepted that your mother is a narcissist. I thought the same thing after I posted my comment about leverage. I thought, ‘You sound really callous there TS”. I think it’s for the same reason. You just can’t trust them, I fully understand that now and, on top of that, a deal is bloody well a deal!

            It is your future, and it’s the future of your own children too because ultimately, if you run out of cash to support yourself due to your mother, it also impacts your own children and that’s doubly unfair.

            It’s all right me spouting advice when it’s not my situation or my mother. You are an empath and it’s really not easy at all with the way we are wired. I’m just glad you took my comment in the way it was intended. A nudge to say, if it comes down to it, there’s always a way. Not a nice way, but a way.

            I’m really glad the comments of the empaths here helped to steady you for the call. I’m more glad that it went well for you.


          33. BC30 says:

            I couldn’t resist and had to say that I LOVE this chain of support and sharing of experiential wisdom. You all are AMAZING! I’m so grateful this place. I have never felt shamed, and I love you all. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

          34. Leigh says:

            Ditto! I’m so grateful to this place too!!! ❤❤❤

          35. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I agree. I have never been shamed for my comments here either. It’s an exceptionally supportive environment. Even on a good day, when all is well, I just enjoy reading and rereading the articles and comments.

            I love the empaths here too. I feel truly accepted and understood.

          36. A Victor says:

            I love it here too. It is a whole new experience for me, everyone being so kind and gentle but also straightforward at times, if there is need, because there is care for the other’s well being. And everyone just gets it, what we’ve been through, that is so nice.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Hello TS, loving your new pic – I love things Egyptian too. A great comment that you have put on this article – good to read what you have to say 🙂 (hey, Lockdown finished!! Yay!)

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hello Asp Emp x

        Yes, today felt so much better. I went out for a run (near enough killed me, too long since I last ran) it was so incredibly pretty outside today. Late afternoon I sat outside with a glass of wine and just enjoyed the sun on my face. It feels like there’s a light at the end of the tunnel doesn’t it?

        Yes, it was time to change my avatar. I am no longer fragile and in the palm of the narcissist’s hand. I’m on a crusade to spread awareness of narcissism and it’s impact to all those in the grip of narcissists or who have been left confused and lost by their departure. I settled on the Eye of Horus, God of war. I like it. It suits my outlook!

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS, “light at the end of a tunnel”….. certainly is. Yet your words reminded me of the convo RE: hoover tube & teeth and the loud music over the Clampetts (laughing). RE: Egypt – my ‘interest’ started when I was young, dunno where that interest initially came from though……

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Ha ha, one of our classics!

            I’m fascinated by Egypt too. I was fortunate to visit for a few weeks. Cairo and Luxor. I was spell bound. I went years ago and funnily enough I bought a silver pendant that is the Eye of Horus. I still wear it more than any other piece of jewellery.

            I’ll never forget the visit to the pyramids. If you go in the evening they are lit up in various colours. As people congregate in front of them each pyramid lights up in a different colour. As it lights up the voice of the relevant Pharaoh booms out and he tells you about his reign. This monologue then gets repeated in various languages. So the English version is the voice of Richard Burton. Deep, commanding, perfect. Then the Italian Pharaoh came on. Kid you not, really high pitched, sounded like a ten year old. Ha ha! Ridiculous. I laughed and laughed.

            Luxor museum was beautiful, only small but you can get up close to the artefacts, very few glass cases, artefacts laid out behind ropes, beautifully lit, haunting place. Valley of the Kings, amazing, though teaming with very pushy street sellers. I’d love to go back one day. It’s a place that has really stuck with me. There’s no where similar to it, it’s almost eerie in the way it gets under your skin.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS…. laughing at “As it lights up the voice of the relevant Pharaoh booms out and he tells you about his reign”….. hilarious….. the description of the Italian one reminds me of Gino D’Campo, he behaves exactly like that…… (laughing again)……

            I’d love to go to Egypt one day. I enjoyed the Palace of Knossos and Zeus’s cave in Crete….. yeah, there’s something about the historical places like that – maybe the empath’s intuition is initiated.

        2. Fiddleress says:

          Hi TS, Goddess of war! I think it suits you, I am so glad to hear you are well rid of the narcissist!
          Lucky you to be out of lockdown. We’d been on 6 pm curfew since November (7pm for the past two weeks), and now the whole country is going back on lockdown again, so said our president tonight. Schools are closing too, with remote teaching.

          I don’t know if you got my reply to your post from a few weeks back, so in a nutshell: I applied to change jobs within the Education system (to do something else than teach), but there was no position available, so that’s a dead end. Will have to quit the Education system altogether, and I think this is what I am going to start organising.
          I was also telling you that my mother died (mid-February), about three months after my father. No more parental narcissists around, and although it was painful at first for various reasons (notably being reminded of my whole personal story), I am in fact feeling free, really free and unburdened. It is such a great feeling. Also thanks to HG who confirmed beyond any doubt that she was a narc. I find it incredibly liberating to hand my experiences with narcs over to HG. It helps to move on, no doubt about it.

          A friend of mine that I’d known since 1992 died three days after my mother. That was sad, but he had been sick for four years so it was to be expected.

          A funny thing has been happening since February: I am being reunited out of the blue (and not even through social media at all) with a few friends that I had not seen in a few years, simply because our lives had led us in different directions at some point. It is all happening at the same time, it is incredible. One of those friends is someone I have known for over 20 years, I have always liked him a lot. I really do not think he is a narcissist, but should it prove necessary, I will use the narc detector. Because, to cut a long story short: I think I may well fall in love with him if I’m not careful ! ( and to think I had decided to remain single for the rest of my life before I saw him again in February). We are seeing each other a bit, and talking on the phone a little. Ah, springtime, haha! But he doesn’t live near me, so the lockdown means our next meeting (date?) will have to wait.

          Great to see you around and that you are doing well, TS xx

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Fiddleress, sounds like you’ve been through a lot this year already. Good luck with this potential – a narc detector is a good idea should it be needed. If it’s meant to be, then it’s meant to be. Never say never again…..

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Fiddleress, thank you for this x

            No I hadn’t seen your response to my earlier post to you. I usually am careful to sign up to comments where I post but I must have made an error and lost you. Thank you for knowing me well enough to post again!

            You sound so well Fiddleress, really, I’m smiling as I write because I can feel the freedom in your words. I am not an ACON as you know but I imagine the sadness that comes with the understanding of your parents being narcissists and what that means in terms of their feelings for you. When those parents are no more, I think this same knowledge might well allow a release, a fast moving on from them. There is no reason to mourn a person who had no true feelings for you. I think you see that. I’m very glad you do.

            I think it’s great you are considering a complete job change. That’s very freeing and opens even more doors in terms of where you choose to live. There are no ties for you now, no obligations, you are fully in control of your own destiny. How exciting!

            I’m excited for your possible new love interest too! I like the sound of that. Someone you have known for a long time who has remained in loose contact, a friend first. Sounds promising! I saw today that France was locking down again. In actual fact this forced slow burn I think is a good thing for this new relationship. A safer approach. I respectfully suggest you review your red flags, review your ‘future protection’ so you are safe as you can be whilst just being you and getting to know this guy. If you feel the need to amend or tone yourself down in any way, step back, check yourself. I know you will x I’m so very pleased all is going so well.

            Ha ha, yes, it’s me, goddess of war ! I like it too. I feel good. I didn’t think I’d ever fully shake the sadness but I have, it’s gone. I remember how supportive you were when I would say that. Never pushing, just accepting what’s right for one, is not always right for another. I really appreciated that.

            Stay safe. Stay well. Make this guy work for it 😉 ha ha ! What?! Trust! I meant work for your trust!!


          3. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, so happy for you! I hope it all goes well!

          4. Fiddleress says:

            Thanks A Victor, lovely of you to say so. If it does (go well, that is), that will be a first for me!

          5. A Victor says:

            Oh I hope so much for you that it does go well, we all deserve one good one, right?

          6. Fiddleress says:

            It could have gone well once, when I was in my twenties, with someone who was very empathic. It was my fault it didn’t go well, because then I couldn’t bear anyone being consistantly kind to me, it had to hide something, or so I felt! I wasn’t used to it. My ET and addiction to narcs were raging at the time, and it never stopped until recently.
            Now I think I may well be ready for a good relationship. And it is all thanks to finding HG and this site!

          7. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, I had such opportunity also, and did the same, it scared me silly. But, now we can be thankful for HG and his site, the newfound knowledge we have and do things in a more logical manner. Love in a logical manner. Who would’ve thought? 🙂

          8. NarcAngel says:

            My two cents Fiddleress:

            I’d get the Narc Detector. His story sounds like a crock of unrequited, and although you say you are exercising caution, you are already emotionally invested and that thinking wants to prevail.

            Best of luck with your new career direction.

          9. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you Narc Angel, I really appreciate your “two cents” as you say. You are right in saying that I am already (or again, as I was all those years ago) emotionall invested. In fact, this is exactly what I have just done: sent HG the narc detector on him.

            Thanks for your wishes re my career; I will know in June.

          10. Another Cat says:


            I just want to join in and congratulate you for finding this non-narcissist guy. Really cheered up my day to read about it. 🙂

          11. Fiddleress says:

            Hello Another Cat, how have you been? Lovely to ‘see’ you around! Thanks so much for what you said. Oh, and I’ll drop the H word for once: it gives Hope!

          12. Another Cat says:

            Dear Fiddleress Thank you so much for asking, I almost missed out on WordPress notifications these weeks because of a new job. Three empaths so far, are my closest collegues and boss. I feel blessed and doing all I can to impress by listening, recaping, briefing etc about the job they want me to do. There are 400 ppl in this organisation, there will be several narcs I gather, but so far I have met ppl who seem committed and nice. Ever since I know about HG, II feel even more appreciation for kind fellow humans. Gotta go, my kids want me to continue tv session, thanks again F!

        3. Fiddleress says:

          Truthseeker, thanks a million for your reply (no direct reply button there, so I post here). There must be a problem with WordPress at the moment because I am not receiving notifications of replies to my post, I need to check the threads for the replies (and I did tick to get notifications for this thread).
          Thank you especially for reminding me that ” If you feel the need to amend or tone yourself down in any way, step back, check yourself”. I need to keep this in mind, as I am much too tolerant to start with. We were quite close friends for four years when we first met. And then we saw in other from time to time, but never alone again until recently.
          He plays the violin and fiddle, and I played with him all those years ago. Hence my pseudo here, by the way!

          On the job front, I have applied to work with teenagers who have or have had to be hospitalised for psychiatric problems (I have formal training in dealing with troubled teens). The idea is to give them English lessons (in groups of 5 pupils), but I would be more than an English teachers there. I would be one of the human beings who try to make their lives bearable, and I would l would love that. I will know in June if I have the job.

          Really happy for you that all sadness has gone re the narc!

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I always wondered about your name! Do you still play? Might you pick it up again? It’s strange, once we stop replaying and unpicking our ensnarements, there seems to be so much more room. Room to enjoy things that we had forgotten we enjoyed. Quite honestly I think I lost more time staring at walls locked in my own mind than I realised.

            This guy might just take you back to your roots too! The more you write the more of a good feeling I get about it. Given our empathic status though, who knows which people from our past were narcs and which weren’t? Perhaps for the most part it is best not to know.

            The job sounds absolutely perfect for you. Absolutely perfect. I really hope you get it! If not, something similar will come along that is meant to be. Stick to your guns, hold out for the right job. I think these changes are brave and exciting and I think you are in a mindset to fight for what you want. I will keep my fingers crossed for the right outcome on all fronts.

            Thank you, I’m happy too xx

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Truthseeker, I remember you saying that you could stare at the wall for hours, replaying the conversations that you’d had with the narc. you said that you had no really harsh memory of your conversations. I thought then that it would make the whole process of forgetting about it all the harder for you. So it is great – I repeat myself, but I really am glad that you are over it.

            ‘Fiddleress’ was a password I used to have, thinking it probably did not exist as such and it made the password safer, but one day I mentioned the word and an English friend said it did exist. So after that I googled it and found out that Thomas Hardy had used it in a story.

            This sentence you wrote: “Given our empathic status though, who knows which people from our past were narcs and which weren’t” speaks to something that bothers me about this fiddler (who now has a cello as I found out when I visited him last month, and I love love love the cello!): the reason why we lost sight of each other. We never spoke about it because we hardly ever saw each other afterwards, and not alone. And I am not too comfortable talking about it over the phone. I can think of at least three reasons why it happened, and that is a question I am going to put to him when I next see him, because it made me very sad indeed for a long time. It doesn’t make him a narc necessarily, but I need to get to the bottom of this.
            Which is one of the reasons why I gave up playing the violin. I now play the piano (it was a childhood’s dream). Time will tell if I pick up a violin again in the future. But you are absolutely right to say in a way this man brings me back to my roots!

            Thank you for what you said about me applying for that job. There was a time when I was very interested in mental illness. There’s a quote about ‘madness’ that I love because it could apply to me, haha:
            “Flirting with madness was one thing; when madness started flirting back, it was time to call the whole thing off.”
            Meaning that I did not keep my interest in madness on a professional level only, and was a bit too inclusive in my relationships at large! It will be better if I consign this interest to the workplace.

            I hope the trouble with your son’s teacher has been resolved; that was a little while back xx

          3. Fiddleress says:

            typos: we saw *each* other
            and: more than an English *teacher* (no -s).

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You are right, I wasn’t seeing him in a negative light. I was staying away on the basis that he was a narcissist and that’s very different. I’m very much a person that sticks by their word too. The agreement had been that we would each be there for the other. It didn’t sit well with me to go against something so fundamental to who I am. There were various things that were eating away at me.

            I think the overall problem for me was mirroring and not in the usual context. I mirrored extensively. In that, I would analyse his words and behaviours in context of what I would mean if I had said or done them. What my reason would be for not responding to a particular question or for falling silent. I placed my empathic nature onto his behaviours. I hadn’t seen him for exactly what he was. I saw me, my reasons, my affection. He didn’t orchestrate that, he didn’t create that. I did.

            It was necessary to go backwards to move forwards. Long conversation, and I will tell you about it when things are a little less busy on the blog.

            I think you are exactly right in exploring why the friendship came to a close the last time. It will be a revealing response and I agree, you need to have that conversation face to face so you can fully evaluate his reaction. It’s not an easy question to answer but it should be answered honestly even if he thinks it is something you might not wish to hear. It’s a valid and honest question and deserves an honest response.

            I like your new picture by the way! I wish I had learned to play violin or piano, I’m always impressed by someone who can play well. The movie ‘The Piano’ is one of my all time favourite films. Not sure if that supports or negates a love devotee trait!

            Thank you, yes I succeeded in removing my son from all interactions with the teacher concerned. Sam now has an alternative head of year and did not have to move year group. When Sophie moves up next year, she too will be assigned an alternative head of year.

            I didn’t warm to the headmaster at all. He runs the school like a business. A factory designed to deliver academic results. This played to my approach in the meeting but I am considering an alternative school for Sam. Sophie appears to deal well with that environment. Sam finds it constricting. I am putting feelers out for a couple of schools in the area.

            Finally, I understand what you mean about the mental illness. That is a brilliant quote too! Yes, confine it to your working rather than your private life!!

            This ended up being way longer than I intended ha ha! Thank you for listening and HG for moderating.


          5. Fiddleress says:

            Hi TS,
            I know what you mean about analysing behaviours and words in context of what it would mean if you had said or done those things. It is only natural, I guess. Sticking to your word is something that can actually play against you, and which manipulators expect. I know, that’s what I do too! And something I expect from others.

            I am trying to refrain from telling that story with the fiddler now as I would only speculate on what happened, 17 years ago, And we seem both so happy to have found each other again but I need to know, and that’s right, I need to gauge his reaction in person. After the lockdown. I will expand on that story when I have his answer.
            I played the fiddle, but I didn’t play long enough to be excellent. It was fine for the gigs we did back then, and such fun. I find learning how to play the piano easier: you touch a key and hey, you get the right note! I absolutely love the film ‘The Piano’ too! Definitely a love devotee trait.

            I look forward to hearing your story if you feel comfortable speaking about it (I didn’t want to ask, but I am interested!)

            So happy to hear that you found a way forward where school is concerned for your children. The main reason why I am sick of the education system here is precisely because schools are now run like businesses where we have no more time to behave as human beings with human beings.

            Always great to hear from you, TS xx

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m always happy to tell you my story. I think you understand the way I view things. I decided on a route that I wouldn’t recommend to others so I won’t go into too much detail about the reasoning behind it. Other than to say, I had thought about it calmly and decided how best to approach it.

            I broke No Contact for a short time. Sent a one word message through FB Messenger, “Night” the response was almost immediate, “Is it?” The objective was to lead the conversation in such a way that he would show himself as the narcissist he was. I had never truly viewed him in this way and I needed to. I kept myself detached. All the walls were up. It was a bit like I was typing but it wasn’t me. I was there just to observe.

            Long story short I saw what I needed to see. The conversation was as it often was. Unclear. That is, if you don’t know what you’re looking for. Now I did and I saw it all. Projection, gas lighting, circular conversation, denial, word salad and one attempt at provocation. He stated,”You can’t be trusted”. This would ordinarily have put me on the defensive and I would have haemorrhaged fuel but I just responded with “Incorrect”. He then admitted it was only said to get me “to bite” (yes he actually verbalised the desire for negative fuel) I responded with, “interesting”. I could feel the confusion as he twisted and turned no doubt wondering why I sounded different. He tried various manipulations. He even fell silent for a few days before coming back with an apology wrapped in a pity play with a threatened loss kicker, “ I just wanted to apologise for my recent comments. Difficult year. Take care.”

            That was my tipping point. Not apologising for the false accusations, the pain and upset he caused, the leading me on, the silences and threatened loss that he had used on me countless times. No. Just an apology because he wasn’t winning. Wasn’t getting the responses he needed from me. A weak ass MMR attempt to assert control. That was it for me. That’s what I had needed to see. The pure self centred-ness and utter disregard for me and my feelings. I accepted the fake apology then tied up the loose ends. I said it wasn’t my style to ghost someone, that behaviour was preferred by him and not by me, so he should be advised that there would be no further communication. Our interaction had reached its conclusion.
            I didn’t wait for his response.

            That was 8 weeks ago. My ET was raised for a few days after but the ache had gone. The sadness had gone. If I think about him now, I can’t quite form the thought. I am aware that if I really tried, concentrated, I could recall and go back to events, but mentally I back up. He feels like a memory I can’t quite bring to mind. Faint. Strange sensation really.

            I thought more about your situation. You have identified reasons that you think prevented the relationship from getting off the ground first time round. Try not to think about this too much. Wait until you are able to see him, ask the question, let him answer and observe him. The reason in itself isn’t as important as you might think. What’s important is that the reason he gives is honest and he doesn’t sidestep your question. You need an open mind to fully assess his response. If you are expecting a specific answer and his is different, this might confuse the issue. So, as difficult as it is, try not to think about it too much. Wait and listen to what he has to say.

            I feel the same Fiddleress. I always value your thoughts and trust your opinion. Xx

          7. Leigh says:

            TS, I’m so sorry. I know you decided to reach out so you can finally know for sure he was a narcissist. Wouldn’t it be nice if just once, it turned out that they weren’t a narc? You sound very positive in your post but I know how sad it can feel. I hope you’re doing ok.

          8. Fiddleress says:

            Hello TS
            Thank you for telling your story. I did think you may have had some form of contact with him, and I totally understand your move. It was about getting to the bottom of things too, and you got your answer! I understand why you needed to see it to believe it (unlike many of us here who had ‘seen’ it with our narcs). Of course, I don’t know you personally but I feel that I know you enough to say that to tell you that you couldn’t be trusted (!) shows he wasn’t addressing you as the person that you are, but only to “bite” as he said (what a giveaway, and typical Mid-Range!). But wow, the way you went about it shows how strong you are. You were able to use what you knew from narcsite in a cool-headed fashion, though I guess it wasn’t as easy as it sounds. Anyway this tells me that you will know how not to get ensnared again! That’s great.
            Ghosting the narc a year ago in February was hard to do, but after all I had told him a month prior that I never wanted to hear from him ever again (and I was hoovered back of course, not having found narcsite yet).

            Just before I read your comment saying that I shouldn’t think about my own question too much (and I agree), I was beginning to think that maybe it would be better not to stir up the past, and let bygones be bygones. Especially in view of our latest telephone conversation.
            Just a few words, and I’ll try to keep it short (haha, as if I could): I met him about the same time as I met my daughter’s father (a narc) as they played music together. He was single. For four years, we spent the summers all together playing music, and sometimes saw one another in the winter. After four years, one evening we were talking (the narc was sleeping); he told me something very personal about him that he tells very few people indeed, which showed his trust in me. I’ll skip other details, but the next day, he was gone without warning. This is what I cannot wrap my head around, and which is not cool of him at all, from my perspective. It left me incredibly sad for a long time. We (the narc and I) moved back to where I live now, after four months. But he (fiddler) told me on the phone just recently (and I asked zero question throughout) that for the next four years he went to the place where we used to meet up and played music, waiting for us, hoping we’d turn up. We did go there with the narc for brief periods of time, but we missed him each other each time apparently. He didn’t know where we lived by then.
            So although I feel I would like to know his answer (and yes, the honesty of it first and foremost), I am now of a mind to simply enjoy the time we spend together and talk, and the answer might come up sooner or later. And if I can simply let go, then all the better.
            In fact, I am thinking I ought to do a narc detector, before I get in too deep!

            If you liked the film The Piano, you may want to check up Yann Tiersen (he lives in my region, and is famous for writing the music of films like Goodbye Lenin, and Amélie Poulain. I am learning two of his pieces from this film at the moment). Here’s a video of him – he looks scruffy and like he’s struggling with a hangover, haha, but he still plays wonderfully – and it will give you a glimpse of a part of my region that I love:

            Enjoy! xx

          9. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, this is absolutely beautiful!! I shared it with my son, hoping it will pull him out of a depression he’s been in, I offered to buy it for him if he would like to learn it. Thank you so much for sharing this! The location is beautiful also! You are lucky to live there.

          10. Fiddleress says:

            AV, actually I live about two and a half hours’ drive away from where you take the boat to visit that island, but I do love going there.

            I am so sorry to hear that your son is experiencing depression. Does he play the piano? How long has he played? I have played for less than two years and my teacher managed to make me learn Yann Tiersen’s ‘La dispute’ (you’ll find mostly cover versions on the piano on YouTube), and now I am learning ‘La valse d’Amélie’: on YouTube, type: “Yann Tiersen – la valse d’Amelie (piano cover by Yuval Salomon)”, the lady plays beautifully.
            Other favourite pieces of mine by Y. Tiersen include “Comptine d’un autre été”, “Summer of 78”, and “La noyée”.
            I do hope he can find solace in these pieces. Playing the piano helped me immensely to get over the narc, last year. xx

          11. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, I loved the water sounds in the video too. I love being near water more than any other place.

            He has played for 13 of his 18 years, he plays very well. I have been missing it since his depression began, with an occasional day here and there where he will play. He hasn’t even been motivated to seek out music to learn, it has been so sad. But, his second oldest sister also is an accomplished pianist and she also took a break for a while when transitioning into adulthood. I will check out the pieces you have mentioned as well as the YT videos, thank you!

          12. Fiddleress says:

            How I would have loved to be given the opportunity to play the piano as a child! Your children are lucky. I do hope your son finds the motivation to play again. Last year, in the months that followed the end of the ‘affair’ with the narc, the only times I wasn’t crying was when I played the piano. We were on a two-month lockdown, so as you can imagine, I spent as much time as I could playing. But real depression is different, it can happen with no reason as it is mostly neurological. Maybe he has medication to help him.

            All the best to you two, AV xx

          13. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, I did not realize you had an affair last year with a narc. Oh, no, I do remember something about you arriving here at your one year anniversary, around the New Year or end of Dec? So happy for that! Did you also say once that you’d been alone, as a matter of choice, for 7 years? Maybe that was someone else but I’ve been thinking it was you. I am so happy your are doing better, I can totally understand how the piano was therapeutic for you, it is for me just hearing it. I learned for one year from my daughter a few years ago, it was fun but hard to make time to practice. I hope to get back to it soon. He actually did get medication but he read the insert and said he couldn’t feel safe to take them. He pops in and out, up and down. He and I are going through it together in a way though I am not actually depressed, just moody. I hope things are going well for you Fiddleress.

          14. Leigh says:

            Fiddleress, I hope you don’t mind me jumping in. I think you may want to do a narc detector. The fact that he told you something very personal and then disappeared the next day sounds a little suspicious. I don’t trust anyone so I could be way off here, but I think I see a red flag. Aren’t both your parents narcissists too? I feel like your like me and the narcissists are just naturally drawn to us. I just want you to be prepared. Sorry if I’m crossing a line I shouldn’t.

          15. Fiddleress says:

            Leigh, you are welcome to jump in any time! You are not crossing a line. Yes, both my parents were narcs, and not only are narcissists drawn to me, but I am hopelessly drawn to them. At least I know this now, and as I am hell bent on that coming to an end, I have indeed just done a narc detector on that person. Thank you for your thoughts, Leigh, and I hope you are doing well.

          16. Leigh says:

            I think as ACONs we have the added burden of everything being askew. We are so used to the gaslightjng because we’ve lived our whole lives with it. I question everyone now. I hope it works out for you. You deserve a win!

          17. A Victor says:

            Leigh, this comment is the bottom line. It’s a complete reset and I question if it’s even possible when it’s been a lifetime of wrong thinking. Leela says it’s healing over the scars, never true healing. Learning what a healthy relationship looks like is a huge step but then there is the learning to control my reactions to things, slow down and assess what’s happening through that new lens. I feel like we, at least I, are so reactive that to learn a new way may be a bigger challenge than I can surmount. But, I am still relatively early on and have a lot of time to work on it. The success stories here do speak well toward this being a real possibility.

            Also, thank you for the comment on another thread about me being soothing, that is interesting to me as a friend told me a couple of years ago that I present as ‘calm’, which other people confirmed when I asked them. That was a revelation for me as I had never seen myself this way, my mind is always going and often feels not calm, though I am gaining on it here. So thank you for that, it helps to see ourselves the way others do sometimes, it can be affirming. And growing up with absolutely no indicators of how I presented, just being made to feel like a failure or invisible, it is even more helpful. Thank you.

          18. Leigh says:

            You’re very welcome and you’ve helped me a lot too!

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Thank you for asking, I feel really well. I always thought the term ‘freedom from the narcissist’ was quite dramatic. Not in the case of most here with real life, physical ensnarements but for me whose ensnarement was online. Actually though, freedom is probably the best way I could describe it.

            I don’t advocate the approach I took. This sounds hypocritical I know. I certainly don’t advocate breaking No Contact.

            I think in many ways I was probably in a similar mindset to readers who seek revenge. HG says to leave it for at least 6 months then see how you feel. I had left it for 9 months. I wasn’t seeking revenge, but my ET and mindset will have been set similarly just with a different objective. I just wanted him out of my head and to stop feeling sad. Seeing him for exactly who he was instead of who I had created was the only way I could think of to solve it. I was not going to let go of it otherwise.

          20. Leigh says:

            TS, your comment about freedom from the narcissist being quite dramatic, made me chuckle. #truth, it really is quite dramatic and that’s because everything with the narcissist is dramatic, even our escape.

            I understand why you took the approach you did. I would have done the same. I would have wanted to make sure he is a narcissist. You needed to take the rose colored glasses off and see the truth. Now you can mourn the loss of him. I know that sounds dramatic too but that’s how I’ve been getting passed all this. I had to mourn the loss of the people I thought they were because those people no longer exist.

            I had to see it, let it go and then mourn them. If I hadn’t of seen it, I wouldn’t have been able to let it go either.

          21. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, that’s exactly it, exactly as you said. I hadn’t ‘seen’ and I needed to.

            I was very very wary of commenting on the blog about it because I do subscribe to No Contact. The absolute last thing I would want anyone to do is to break it ‘just to check’. It was a different motivation for me and done at a time when my ET wasn’t high, where I did understand the dynamic and I didn’t have any questions for the narc nor any desire at all to resurrect any form of ‘relationship’. It was just the very last link I needed to break. My own creation that needed to be broken apart.

            The event you describe Fiddleress where this man confided than left is a strange one. You could look at it in one way and suspect narcissist. The romance of it, the disappearance, the plausibility of you just missing him, same place different time. It could point to a narcissist. Tiptoeing down a similar route to “I have always loved you. No no, don’t look embarrassed it’s true.” (can’t remember the name of the article ) Or, it could be genuine. Perhaps he did try to find you and logically went to venues where you would be likely to show. This is the bit where if you were in front of me I’d take you by the shoulders and say “Fiddleress, think, did he say, ‘I went to the venue hoping you would both show up.’ Or, did he say ‘I went to the venue hoping YOU would show up.’ I think the difference in phrasing might be important.

            His behaviour could also indicate he isn’t a narcissist. He confided something in night time hours as people often do, then, in the cold light of day, felt embarrassed, wished he hadn’t, thought he had spoiled things, backed up and disappeared for a time, regretted it, returned to resume the friendship.

            I think this question is important to you and if it is then you should ask it. If a question was important to him, if he needed to know something about the past, would you answer it? Then the same rules apply to you too x

            If you feel he was trying to weave a love story, raise the walls. Continue communication but keep your walls up until you can get a fix on him. Once there have been enough conversations and also a couple of face to face meetings, yes, absolutely, the Narc Detector. I think we all should do that if I’m honest. Then we rule out or we can feel safe and just enjoy it.

            In some ways you remind me of me and the way the online relationship started. Lots of conversations before I actually met him face to face. I was already ‘in’ by the time we met and those senses of ours that operate well for first impressions, were dulled due to those prior interactions. I saw only what I expected to see. Be aware of this Fiddleress. I still feel positive about it for you, I really do, we all just need to be cautious x

            I absolutely love the music you sent! The setting looks really beautiful and his playing really takes hold of you. Melancholic. I’m going to sit later with a glass of wine and make a Yann Tiersen playlist! The piece you chose was perfect. Thank you xx

          22. Fiddleress says:

            I’m pleased you liked the music, TS. And listening as you’re drinking wine should make for a perfect moment!

            I know you would not recommend breaking no contact, and I am sure HG saw that. Your case seems to be quite unique, and I really understand that you needed to see narcissism in action, otherwise if you hadn’t, I imagine it would have forever felt like cognitive dissonance.

            How I would love to have a face to face conversation with you! Your reasoning is exactly mine. These are exactly the questions I ask myself. Yes, I am positive that he meant he was hoping to see us (me and the narc, who was his friend), because he used the collective “vous”, and not the singular “tu/toi/te”. In fact, when the narc and I would go to the venue, we were told “X was here the other day”, so it is true he went there, but we had no means of contacting him by then. So I do not think he was trying to weave a love story. So far he has not asked for the narc’s phone number. Interesting.
            I am holding my breath now, as I have sent HG the narc detector with all the details of that story and the disappearing act, which could be my fault (maybe a tale for another time, but there are details about him I will not reveal here). I wante to do the detector because of what you explained about yourself: being already ‘in’ when it is too late.
            Time (and especially HG!) will tell.

          23. Fiddleress says:

            Also: absolutely right on saying I would give him an answer if he asked me anything about the past, and yes, this question is important to me. Thank you for reminding me, as it seems I was about to revert to my “ask no questions” habit – something narcissists have trained me well to do!

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Yes, exactly you do mourn the loss of the person you thought they were.

            I did all of my mourning before I went back in for that short time. Now that I have seen him exactly as he is, there’s no emotion for him at all. Perhaps an aggravation that NPD does what it does to people, the narcissist included, but nothing beyond that.

            I think the LDE / narcissist dynamic operates in a magnified way in some aspects. “The LDE will always be lonely.” HG is absolutely right, we are but we were also lonely to begin with.

            I felt very isolated around the time the narc first arrived on the scene. Suddenly, here was a place I escaped to. Every night when the day was done, I closed the door to my real life and we escaped into our own world.

            The LDE lives very much in her head because the narc is not in front of or beside her. We have vivid imaginations and our empathic traits help to feed in to the creation of a whole world. The narcissist happily comes along with us. When things are unclear we fill in the gaps, overlay our own hopes, emotions, dreams, need for things to be different, onto the narcissist. It’s ‘Utopia’ on speed. The narc can really do no wrong because he is always as we imagine him to be.

            There are parallels to a real life ensnarement. There are manipulations and devaluations that fortunately the LDE never has to face. Similarly though there are elements that are magnified. In effect, a golden period that is not only of our making but is better than any reality could ever be because it exists entirely in our heads. What is actually said and what we hear are two very different things. I have no doubt that ET helps with this but so too does our imagination.

            It kind of makes sense that to let go of this imagined person and future love story, the LDE would have to face the reality of who this person truly is as opposed to who she created him to be. Once she does see, it’s like he just disappears into thin air. The reality is unrecognisable. This is not the person she escaped with.

            With the increased influence of chat rooms and online communication there will be growing numbers of LDE’s. It would be interesting to learn more about the mindset of the LDE. I can tell it from my perspective, other LDE’s might view things differently.

          25. Leigh says:

            TS, our stories are so different and yet so similar. I can relate to so much of what you said. The isolation, the loneliness and finding someone to help you escape those feelings, even if it was only for a short period.

            I also would love to help people who are going through this now. I believe true healing comes from helping others.

          26. A Victor says:

            Leigh, you are helping people, right here. You’ve helped me a lot.

          27. Leigh says:

            Thank you AV

          28. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome Leigh and I didn’t say that lightly.

          29. A Victor says:

            TS, I’m not exactly sure what has happened, I read all the comments but you’re ahead of me, so it’s not completely computing. I just wanted to say congratulations at getting the peace you were seeking, the resolution. And at not becoming ensnared again. I agree with what you wrote concerning LDE’s, it was just as powerful an experience as the guy from the class, about the same length in duration so a fair comparison, both left me equally as shaken, both right to the core.

          30. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for saying that. When I was writing to you last night I thought exactly the same thing. How lovely it would be if we could meet in a coffee shop and talk the day away. I think it would be the very best therapy we could ever have. Honest, with understanding.

            Well we both love to travel and explore! When life gets back to normal and we get to explore again, you just let me know if you plan a trip to the UK and I’ll travel to meet you. We could carry a copy of one of HG’s books under our arm so we recognise each other! Ha ha!

            I’m glad you have decided to do the Narc Detector Fiddleress. I can imagine you will be like a cat on a hot tin roof until you get the result. Either way, it’s the right thing. If he isn’t a narcissist, then you can relax and really enjoy the excitement of a new relationship. If he is, and I know you would be desperately disappointed, then it’s better to know now. We’re lucky that we have HG on our side. The only narcissist whose opinion we can trust.

            I’m glad he said “vous”. Even better that the venue owner remembered him coming in, so he isn’t lying about that. I totally respect you not giving details of a private conversation, there was clearly enough in that conversation for you to consider valid reasons for his later behaviour. If all is well with the ND these will no doubt be explained to you when you decide the time is right to ask him about it.

            As for you debating whether to ask him, I can fully understand why. You have been trained not to ask and you also don’t want to cause discomfort. If something worries you though Fiddleress, it should always be ok to ask. He might be relieved to clear the air himself.

            I will keep my fingers crossed for a favourable outcome. I hope you let us know, only when you are ready to do so of course.


            PS. Thomas Hardy is one of my favourite authors. I always fancied myself as Eustacia Vye!

          31. Fiddleress says:

            TS, That’s a deal ! I really mean it. It would be so cool to meet up (make sure you have the whole day ahead of you, haha! When I feel comfortable, I can talk for hours). I have Red Flag in print. And I can’t wait to travel to the UK, as I need this fix on a regular basis! We’ll have to look into this (with HG’s permission) when we know about restrictions being lifted. And of course, should you want to hop across the Channel, you are more than welcome!

            I’m probably not as hot as Elizabeth Taylor in the film of the same name, but like a cat on a tin roof I am! I will let you know whether my friend is or not a narcissist, as I think this is something we can mention here (as per the protocol as I understood it).

            I read in another of your posts about ‘living in your head’: well, I am glad to see I am not the only one. And sometimes I think it is the best part of life, when that world doesn’t need to be shattered.

            I have only studied the film and the book Tess of the d’Urbervilles by Thomas Hardy, Part of the film was shot in one of the most beautiful villages in the west of the part of the country I live in (look up Locronan, if you want that is). I will have to look into The Return of the Native. Eustacia Vye, Queen of Night, who desired more than anything else to be loved to madness, and always filled with smoldering rebelliousness (so I have read): I love that!

            Will keep you updated 😉 Xx

          32. Fiddleress says:

            Oh and I realise I’ve done it again: said “maybe it was my fault that he left”. No, we were close enough that he could tell me if I’d said what I shouldn’t have. I would not leave a friend in the dark and just piss off. I would find a way of talking about it.
            Maybe he simply could not, for whatever reason (finding excuses – damn and damn again).
            I do need to ask him.

          33. Fiddleress says:

            * That was Roman Polanski’s “Tess of the d’Urbervilles” I was referring to.

          34. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I agree. True healing does come from helping others and not just in the sense of feeling good for doing so. We listen to others and analyse what’s being said, try to get a real fix on how that person feels and why. We all do it. The intention is for the benefit of someone else but the side effect is that we are continually learning more about ourselves and our own ensnarements.

            I’m glad you could relate to the LDE comment Leigh. Post Covid there have to be more LDE’s arriving on the blog with similar stories. I dread to think how many must be out there. The narcs have been drawing their fuel from somewhere.

          35. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you. I feel great 🙂 I’m finally looking forward instead of looking back and I actually feel quite optimistic!

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Hahaha yay! I’m in!! Thank you, when the restrictions lift I would love to return to France. I have fond memories there. I will most definitely let you know. I’m sure HG would turn a blind eye and press send just to keep us quiet and reduce moderating time ha ha! See what I did there?! Whichever direction we go, here or there, it would be really lovely to meet up. Don’t worry, I can hold my own on the talking front!

            Back to your friend. If you look at it a different way, the order of decision making might also be different than you think. It’s possible that the decision to leave had already been taken prior to your conversation that night. It’s also possible that these confidences were shared in part because he was already leaving.

            Not everyone tells all. I don’t tell all. Not for a long long time. You have stated that the information was highly personal but perhaps there was still more to the story that was left untold. This one event in itself isn’t enough in my view to confirm or rule out narcissism. What I struggle with most is that he didn’t let you know he was leaving. It’s possible that he didn’t think his departure would upset you as much as it did. It’s possible he didn’t recognise that you thought so highly of him or even that he saw the narc as a better / more preferred option for you. Men do step back if they think they are outgunned.

            Its definitely right to hand this one over to HG in the form of a Narc Detector. What has taken your focus might be very different to what HG focusses on in terms of behaviours. So, try not to worry just yet. This was a single event. There should be repetitive behaviours evident to classify narcissism.

            Tess of the d’Urbervilles is a great read. I loved that too. Eustacia takes it for me because she is just so determined, spirited, her character has depth. Her opposition in Thomasin was too nice for me! I like a flawed character I think. There really is no hope for me is there?! Haha!

          37. Fiddleress says:

            Haha yes, TS, I saw what you did there!

            Thank you for what you wrote and I agree with everything you said re the fiddle player. I trust HG to see the bigger picture. So I will let the matter rest for the time being, and give my neurons a rest. Though a lockdown is bad time for this, it gives me too much time to rehash and memories are coming back from that time (especially 1999-2003), from being with the narc as well then, having our child, playing music and singing the three of us together. And then everything turning sour.
            I think I will get myself some wine for this evening (another side effect of the lockdown, haha).

            I know about liking flawed characters, I tend to go after them in real life. I know we are all flawed to some degree, I just really like the really flawed ones!

          38. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I blame my Saviour element for the flawed character part. Although a flawed character usually has a story, has lived a little, experienced the world and made his fair share of mistakes. Interesting, someone with depth. I think that is why I have always opted for older men. Greater depth and more life experience. It’s a huge draw for me. Same with looks. I don’t go for pretty men. Attractive, of course, but not pretty. Pretty doesn’t interest me.

            Flawed is good. Just not too flawed!

          39. Fiddleress says:

            TS, thanks for pointing out that the Saviour element means we are more drawn to flawed characters, it makes total sense! Saviour is my cadre (and I’m not surprised). With only a small martyr element, so yes I’d love to save the world/make the world a better place, for everyone… including myself, haha. I want to be able to benefit from that as well – not just say: OK, job done, I can leave now. No way!

          40. Fiddleress says:

            Hi TS, and everyone,
            HG has confirmed that the fiddler is NOT a narcissist. Not a narcissist, not a narcissist (that’s me singing and dancing)! Which means that I can tie him down to a chair, shine a bright lamp into his face, and ask him questions that even the Gestapo would have been too polite to ask. I do take my overwhelming truthseeker trait very seriously, haha!
            Well, excelllent news anyway.

            Hope you are doing great, TS xx

          41. Leigh says:

            Fiddleress, that’s fantastic news! I’m so happy for you! You deserve a little happiness!

          42. Fiddleress says:

            Hi Leigh, thank you!
            This person must be the only male I have liked so much who is not a narcissist. That’s a start!
            One of the good things about filling in the Narc Detector is that it puts you face to face with the facts, and writing them out also puts you in touch with your real feelings. In this case, for the moment I think it is best to remain friends. And this friendship brings me a lot of happiness! I’ve always been better at friendships than romantic relationships anyway.

            I hope you are doing well, Leigh, and that the guy at work is leaving you in peace.

          43. Leigh says:

            Thank you Fiddleress. Workplace narc only hoovers once in a great while. When he does, I always find him comical. Most of the time he leaves me be.

            Finding a non-narcissist that you like is an awesome start! I hope it works out for you.

          44. A Victor says:

            Yay!! Happy dancing in the US for you!! Wonderful to hear!

          45. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you AV! I find it interesting that I liked him very much already around 18 years ago, even at a time when my ET was permanently rampant. Which is also why I thought the NDC was a good idea!

          46. lickemtomorrow says:

            <3 I popped in here to say I am delighted to hear the good news on the NDC and the possibility of a new relationship, Fiddleress 🙂 I see you are focused on friendship at the moment and that is the ideal place to start, but it sounds like you have a wonderful Springtime to look forward to as you reestablish your relationship – regardless of what kind it turns out to be. So, so happy for you after all you have been through over the last year. And you are so so deserving of some happiness, too. Where there have been some thoughts added here about moving on lately, you are literally being handed the opportunity to do just that and I hope it goes well for you xox

          47. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you so much, lickemtomorrow, what you wrote was so lovely! It seems that everything started getting better and better in February last year when I found narcsite, and HG. I started finding the answers to a lifetime of bewilderment. All the experiences that are shared here, and chatting with others, supporting each other: all this has meant that I found the energy to do what needed to be done in order to move on. Over the past few years, I had honestly lost the energy that I used to have. Now I feel it is coming back. And you know how sometimes when things start going wrong, it gets worse and worse? Well maybe when some things start getting better, more things get better too!
            Being reunited with this friend was an important event. Isn’t it ironical that I bumped into him in February at a mutual friend’s funeral? The very friend through which we had met? I don’t read anything magical in this, it is just amazing, especially since strangely enough, I hadn’t thought of the possibility to see him there.
            It’ll be great to see him in about 10 days.

            I hope you are doing great, LET 🙂 xx

          48. lickemtomorrow says:

            Fiddleress, I agree with you on things getting worse and worse sometimes (before they get better), and the hope that it also rings true for things getting better and better 🙂 It’s what I hope for all of us here as we seem to have been forced to deal with the worst in so many ways. But your experiences over the last year have touched me deeply. It gets to a point where you’re not sure how much someone can take. Life seems so unfair sometimes. Now it appears life is finally beginning to turn things around and it’s wonderful to hear <3 You are on a great trajectory now, with lots to look forward to, and that gives the rest of us hope as well. I always love it when the unexpected, in terms of good things, happen. It does seem magical, but you seem to have your feet planted firmed on the ground at the same time. And there is the other factor of life coming out of death as well. I was sorry to hear about the death of your friend, but in some way it has now created a new beginning for you. That also seems to be how life works.

            Things for me right now are neither great nor terrible … I'm in a kind of holding position while I wait to see how some things unfold. Not ideal when you like to feel you know where you are headed and what you are doing, but it's part of life as well. Nothing to do with a new relationship yet, or the possibility of one. The great strides you have made give me encouragement, though, and I'm looking forward to hearing more good news as you venture out and into a better future xox

          49. Fiddleress says:

            LET, I have just seen your other reply (May 2) by chance. For some reason, I never got the notification Thank you!

            Not really knowing where you are, or where you are heading, feels indeed uncomfortable. I remember that I’d been feeling like that for about two years when I met the last narc. Not to say that this will happen to you (most likely it won’t now, not with being here), but I’m just thinking that maybe I was ripe for the picking because of that, who knows. Or it was one factor which meant I fell for him. At least it certainly was a time just before a great big change, and ultimately, a positive one, so for you it could be a very positive (and narc-free) change coming up; maybe think of this suspended time as a kind of gestation? The horizon will then clear up all of a sudden, things will fall into place. I wish you all the best in this xx
            As I wrote in a reply to TS, I saw that friend a few weeks ago, and we had a great time but friends it is, and I am quite certain it will remain this way – it is what I would prefer at any rate. I am seeing him again soon this month.
            So nothing on the romantic front either, and it is fine. As I once said to the narc not long before my escape: I am not easily tamed (I wonder if this was challenge fuel?) , and I’m afraid that is true with any romantic involvement as far as I’m concerned. I said to my friend the last time, in reference to romantic relationships, that I was married to my freedom. (He had jokingly said that he was married to something.) OK, I have cheated on my freedom with a few narcs, but I have always escaped sooner or later. I’m done with that cheating. I honestly think I am happiest when single, but well, never say never! And one-night stands are not for me (no judgement there, they just upset me: I know, I’ve tried!).
            Now, friendship is a different story altogether. With non-narcs, i.e real friends, I never feel trapped or hindered whereas I do in a romantic setting, and I am there no matter what. There is love in friendship too, and I am so much more comfortable with that kind of bond.
            Let me (or us) know how things go !
            Hugs to you, LET.

          50. lickemtomorrow says:

            Fiddleress, thank you for your very kind words, and not to worry about the missed comment … I’ve had a few of those lately, too, and will need to ask for a ‘general absolution’ in case there are some I don’t manage to get back to, or ever see in the first place! I do try to keep track of articles I have posted to which helps at times. But, you have been busy, too, and hopefully enjoying some lovely Spring weather 🙂

            It’s interesting how we become ensnared in the first instance, and I’d had a brief entanglement with another narc just prior to him engaging with me that he was aware of so I’d say I was wounded and he smelled blood in the water. It was like a ‘one two’ with two narcs in close succession and a knock out punch from the last one before I got here. I left him with a bloody nose though! And made sure to kick him in the balls before I was done.

            But, it’s those vulnerable moments, isn’t it? They just know when to make their move. And moments of uncertainty for us are moments ripe with opportunity for them. I like the idea of considering this a moment of gestation, which I think it is for us all. We can never go back to the way we were now that our eyes have been opened. So, I can only come out better with a new direction, and hopefully no looking back. I’m feeling vindicated in so many ways right now. And I hope you feel the same with the understanding you have gained <3

            I'm so glad you had an opportunity to meet up with your old friend, and it seems that meeting may have clarified a few more things for you. That is good news 🙂 I know the wondering was causing you concern, and there is no knowing how things will go until you actually meet again. I hope the friendship will be beneficial with no narc red flags flying, and also that you will find some real healing as well as grounding with that opportunity, Fiddleress.

            It's possible we will never be able to tailor ourselves to relationships which promise something more normal. Maybe we might just need longer to value our freedom first. I would never say never either, so perhaps we can just go about enjoying life narc free until someone truly worthwhile who catches our attention. I know I wasn't looking the first time. A line from a song has just come to mind again – "I wasn't lost until you found me" – the only person who will find me now is one who has been thoroughly tested against all the new knowledge I have gained.

            I hope you will keep us up to date, Fiddleress, on how things are going and I will do the same. In the meantime, I'm wishing you all the best <3 xox

          51. A Victor says:

            So the Savior gives us a double whammy. 😭

          52. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Ha ha! Yay! *jumps up and down in excitement*

            I’m over the moon for you. The blog went quiet and I thought to myself ‘Please just get to that NDC HG! ‘ I’m so very pleased he did. HG, you are fabulous, you really are x

            Oh I’m so happy that you know now Fiddleress, I can imagine you playing the audio file. Did HG do the pause before telling you Narc or non narc? Haha I bet he did. I bet you squealed when he said, ‘ is not a narcissist.’

            Now you can relax, and whatever feelings arrive or don’t arrive for you both, you know you are safe to go along with it. If nothing else, you get to keep a friendship with him this time around. So either way, you gain.

            Are you still chatting regularly? Have you made plans to meet up and do something when lockdown ends?

            I’ve been checking my inbox for your name, I was nervous for you there.

            Many hugs,


          53. Fiddleress says:

            Haha, Truthseeker, thank you! What you wrote is really sweet.
            We are so lucky to have HG’s Narc Detector. Indeed, HG made the pause when he said: “The answer to that question is… no!” I could tell by the tone of the word ‘is’ that the next word would be ‘no’, and I shouted out loud “Yes!”, just after I heard the ‘no’, haha!
            Oh yes, we are still chatting on the telephone regularly, but not too often, usually for about two hours. A lot of catching up to do. The restrictions to travel further than 10 kilometres will be lifted on Monday (3rd May), and we have a long weekend here from 13th to 16th May, so we are going to see each other then. He wants us to go cycling along the canal where he lives, isn’t that romantic?! I look forward to this of course, and as you said, I can relax about what the future holds in store. I will just enjoy spending time with him, and we will see. I will be happy to keep him as a friend, at any rate. At least now I know that if I ask questions, there is a very good chance that he will answer truthfully, but I won’t push the question (that was my warped sense of humour in my previous comment).

            I have a bit of catching up to do with the new posts here, that’s exciting too. I will before I go back to my work place on Monday, the latter being not so exciting. Remote teaching is not a good solution, but I feel it is less hectic than when I am there physically.

            Many hugs back to you xx

          54. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That’s great news, the lockdown easing in itself is great news but lovely you have something so nice to look forward to when it does!

            Yes, a bike ride by the canal does sound romantic, non showy. An opportunity just to spend time in each other’s company, where you can just be you. It’s a perfect, non pressured suggestion.

            I laughed at you shining a light in his face and interrogating! I knew you were joking. The emphasis to have him explain himself is less pressing now but I agree, there are still questions and it’s good to know that he will be more inclined to answer them honestly than dishonestly. The story will likely come out in pieces, bit by bit as you get to know each other better again. That’s not withholding necessarily, it’s just sharing more as his trust grows.

            Speaking of trust, remember your history is yours and yours alone. You might remember a thread about confiding. The temptation now that you know he is not a narcissist might be to confide all and early. Trust has still to be earned even with a non narc.

            I’m still grinning. I really wanted good news for you. I’m sure everyone who reads your comment will feel encouraged that there are other options, other possibilities to build fresh relationships, friendships or otherwise with non narcissists. We might not know where they will end up, but at least we know that it’s safe to start the journey!


          55. Fiddleress says:

            TS, oh yes, the end of the restrictions is good news, even if everyone in this country wonders why the lockdown is being lifted since the situation is worse on the whole now than earlier this year (but not in Brittany, where I live – we are more or less OK here). We should be allowed to have drinks outside of cafés as from 19th May, so guess where I’ll be that evening, haha!

            I agree with what you say about trust, and his disappearance and also probably what caused it made a dent in that mutual trust. So the chats we are having are slowly mending the hitch in the material (if this makes sense in English – I am thinking of this expression I love: you can *weave* a story! Isn’t that just beautiful? Same verb as in weave a piece of material, and talking can be a way of sewing it up if there’s a hitch in the material).
            Exactly as you say: the story will probably come out in bits, and then the stitches may well become invisible.
            I will probably feel more comfortable saying more about that episode when it has been resolved.

            Happy 1st May if that is something you celebrate; here, it means absolutely everything is closed, and not a single bus or underground works – and the latter will really be the only noticeable difference with the past four weeks, haha!


          56. NarcAngel says:

            Glad to hear that you’ve had Fiddler checked out and got the go ahead. I was concerned about you getting caught up again having so few details save the looking for you explanation, and I’m happy to be wrong. That’s why its great to be able to consult with HG and get the detectors. More comprehensive, objective, and an examination of aggregate behaviours is much better than our own speculation. The job prospect sounds very fulfilling for you and I wish you a successful outcome in June.

          57. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you very much NarcAngel, I really appreciate your concern. It’s true I haven’t given the details surrounding the disappearing act (yet), but I still feel that his taking French leave (there must be a reason for that expression, even if we call it ‘taking English leave’, haha) was unwarranted, given how openly we spoke to each other until then. And are speaking again now.
            Doing the Narc Detector is great on so many accounts – besides getting the definitive answer from HG, which of course is the most important aspect, filling it in is also an opportunity to take a step back, and that in itself brings a form of peace, I find.

            Thank you also for your wishes regarding the work front. I should find out on 16th-18th June.

          58. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I thought the same, it does seem early to lift lockdown there but I’m very glad your particular area is safer than most. I don’t think I’ve ever wished for summer quite so much. Just to sit outside of a nice pretty bar or coffee shop with a few friends without being cold feels like a real luxury. This might actually be a lesson we can learn from COVID. When it comes down to it, it’s the really simple things that make a difference to people and their sense of well being.

            Yes, weaving a story or a tale is a lovely expression. All of the threads coming together to make up the whole. It takes time to see how each character is woven into the story but little by little, as readers, we begin to understand them better.

            Thank you. Happy May 1st to you too! Similar here, we get Monday as a holiday. The kids are seeing friends in the various villages close by so I will be playing taxi on and off. I like the drive though, the villages are opening up faster than the towns here in many ways. Innovative outdoor seating areas in courtyards and gardens, outdoor street sellers in village squares, that kind of thing. It looks very pretty. Most of all there is a buzz and a bustle again which is lovely to see.

            As far as the new material goes, HG is putting out some amazing YouTube videos. He has really found his style now I think, it’s lovely to hear. I laugh out loud at his ‘Harry’s Wife’ videos, start there and listen with a nice glass of wine, they’ll see you through the next couple of weeks until you can get out and about again! Xx

          59. Fiddleress says:

            Truthseeker, I could just picture the villages that you described, based on what I remember of driving through English countryside (which I love!). It really sounds lovely.

            Oh yes, I love listening to the Less than Royal Narcissist series! They are so on point in how they describe narcissism at work, and I laugh out loud too. Harry’s wife, the gift that keeps giving!
            I am enjoying the Narcissist Seduction and Narcissist Ensnared very much too. The episode usually comes on just before I go to bed, which is great.

            Just wondered: maybe I misunderstood “weave a story”; does it apply specifically to fiction? My intention was to apply it to the unfolding of real life events in my life at the moment. I haven’t been weaving a fictional story here, and I hope that I didn’t make it sound like I had! (HG, is there such a thing as the “Worrier” cadre??).

            Have a great weekend TS! I’m going hiking with a friend tomorrow not far from my home. xx

          60. HG Tudor says:

            No, worrying is just part of being an empath.

          61. Fiddleress says:

            Ah, isn’t that just great.
            Thank you all the same for your reply, HG.
            I have the impression that worrying can be lessened by lowering ET, but that it never stops altogether.
            HG please: is worrying a form (or an element) of emotional thinking?

          62. HG Tudor says:

            It depends on whether there is a logical basis for your worrying, for example :-

            1. If you are diagnosed with cancer have 6 months to live and you have children, if you are worrying about how they will manage without, then this has a logical basis.
            2. Being worried about the earth being wiped out by an asteroid when there is no evidence to suggest this is going to happen for a very long time indeed, is worrying on an illogical basis.

            A lot of worry associated with the empath and narcissist dynamic is caused by emotional thinking and can be reduced or eradicated. Some of it has a basis in logic.

          63. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Not for one second. Worry not! I know you aren’t weaving a fictional story. It is the true story of you and him.

            My comment was probably a little vague. What I meant there was, that sometimes, we don’t get to see all of the threads at the start of a story. The characters reveal themselves as it progresses and we have to wait until further in to see where these various threads lead. In the case of the Fiddler and his disappearance all those years ago, you might not unravel all of his story fully to begin with but as time goes on, just as in a book, everything will be revealed.

            Ha ha! You know when you are trying to explain an idea and you think, ‘I don’t think I’m doing a very good job of this’ ? That’s me, right now 😂

            I didn’t connect that empaths are prone to worry. I worry all the time too. I think that’s probably why so many of us write in the way we do. We are concerned about being misunderstood, whilst we ourselves try so hard to understand.

            Yes, I do really love where I live now. It’s very quaint, very pretty. Even running errands is pleasurable with the scenery and I do notice it. I still take it all in. I am a nomad, but I see myself staying here for some time yet.

          64. Fiddleress says:

            Oh, haha, some things in me never change! No TS, you were not being vague and your explanation seems very clear to me.
            I tend to worry less now in general, but out of the blue there’ll be a spike in my tendency to worry when I suddenly think “damn, what I said/wrote may well have sounded like (insert alternative interpretation)”. Once on my own, of course. So I usually get back to the person and check that they didn’t understand it the way I fear they might have, which they usually have not BUT it has happened that they had, so now I am forever traumatised by this and can’t help thinking it could happen again of course so I need to check.
            Obviously, it does not end there.
            I usually end up quite embarrassed, even more than before getting back to the person, and feel like they have found out that I am in fact completely bonkers. So of course then I tend to avoid that person, which probably makes my case even worse!
            I have mastered the art of making everything worse through trying to make things better, hahaha. Well, at least I am safe here, I can rest assured that everyone will understand about worrying!

            I know what you mean about still marvelling at the scenery around where you live. I think it is an essential element of happiness, or contentment, peace of mind – I am not sure how to describe it, but it is definitely essential. Mostly to empaths, maybe? I know that I am extremely sensitive to my surroundings.

          65. Fiddleress says:

            Hi TS
            Just a little update after my long weekend with my fiddler friend : I had a great time, we just can’t stop talking with each other! However, I have changed a lot in 17 years (when we were close); he has changed a little, too. In a nutshell, friends it will be – the weekend has confirmed it for me – and it suits me perfectly. I think next time I can get down to some serious interrogating, haha!
            He told me about his latest relationship, and the woman (that I had seen 2 or 3 times, and really disliked) sounds like a narcissist from what he explained. It was sad to hear him say that although he was unhappy and scared, he didn’t leave her (she ended it) because he believed that a couple should stay together no matter what, because being a couple is about making efforts and compromise, he said. He is changing his mind about that now! At the time (2003) he had said the same to me: I had told him that I was going to leave my daughter’s father (a narcissist) because things were going from bad to worse, and he advised me then not to leave, because separations were not good solutions. His belief has turned against him in a nasty way.

            I can’t believe how cold and grey it still is here, I can’t wait for the warm weather to start! Anyway, we are slowly coming out of the lockdown, which means I can go hiking along the coast next weekend!
            Hope everything is going great with you.

  8. susano says:

    That’s about how it goes down/feels and should make anyone who has ever been there not just focus on the narc but on themselves and how they ended up in that situation. There are ALWAYS red flags and those who have suffered the consequences either acknowledge that truth and get down to the business of understanding why they dismissed them or they will be doomed to repeat the same bad decisions.

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