How Your Emotional Thinking Causes Excuses

 

HOW YOUR EMOTIONAL THINKING CAUSES EXCUSES 

THIS IS A KEY ARTICLE IN TERMS OF BOLSTERING YOUR UNDERSTANDING.

The fact for so long you had no idea what you were dealing with resulted in you engaging in an anticipated behaviour. This behaviour is one which we regularly rely on in order to keep you in the dark. I have made mention of the various traits which we look for in those who make the most useful victims to us.

One of those traits concerns your ability to try to find the good in everyone and everything. This is a typical empathic trait and along with all of the others which you possess causes you to flare up on our radar when we are seeking an excellent primary source. Your desire to see good means that it obscures your ability to see the bad or perhaps more accurately, to accept the bad.

This is how your emotional thinking once again cons you and causes you to fail to see what is really happening, how you make excuses for the behaviour. Your emotional thinking craves the interaction with us, it is selfish and wants to experience all of the ‘good’ which flows from us and to convince you to ignore the bad. Your emotional thinking does not want you to acknowledge what is really going on and exit the relationship.

Your emotional thinking wants to gag logic so it cannot be heard and cause you to overlook the bad in the hope of recovering the good once again. Thus, your emotional thinking will make you issue excuse after excuse for what we do, so you remain invested in the relationship with us.

Accordingly, your emotional thinking continues our control of you. It is those who are empathic who suffer from this effect from their emotional thinking. They are convinced to consider their action as selfless, a reflection of how they wish to see the ‘good’ in people, how they make allowances and are tolerant – but when you are ensnared with our kind, all that is happening is that you are being prevented, by your own emotional thinking, from seeing what is truly happening and this is to your detriment.

Of course, at the time it is happening, you cannot see it happening because your insight is impaired by the emotional thinking. Occasionally, logic might just make itself heard (only to be ignored) as you notice that a certain behaviour is not acceptable but your emotional thinking rises once again and swamps that logic before it can gain a foothold in your mind.

Emotional thinking whispers that excuse for you and it is easier to accept that than go along the rocky road of logic. Thus, your emotional thinking keeps you blinded to the truth and it is only later when you have been punched in the face by the gauntlet of brutal honesty that you finally pay heed to logic and with hindsight realise how you have been conned. It happens over and over again and is all because of your emotional thinking gaining control of your thoughts.

This is something we desire because it prevents you from truly recognising what it is that is happening to you once your devaluation has begun. We of course love to operate from a position of plausible deniability, we court ambiguity since we enjoy and need to twist and turn in order to achieve what we want.

If you saw everything as stark and clear as I now describe our machinations to you, you would be more inclined to escape us and bring about that unwelcome cessation of our primary source of fuel. It would also make it harder to apply those hoovers when we wish to return you to the fold and have you engage in our cyclical endeavours once again.

We present you with the truth of what we are on a repeated basis but although we offer it up in front of you, we never let you see it clearly. We draw a veil across certain elements, apply a smoke screen, obscure some parts and distort others. The reality is there before you.

It is evident and plain but because of the way in which we purposefully manipulate you, you are unable to see it. It is akin to us pointing out a ship on the horizon. It is obvious for us to see but when we hand you a telescope to gain a better look at this vessel, the lens has been smeared with something which distorts the view, or we place our finger over part of the lens blocking your view.

The consequence of this distortion is to prevent you from truly seeing what we are. This in turn means that you are unable to form a clear and coherent view of the person which has taken hold of you. This becomes infuriating for others who we have not been able to drag into our façade, but who recognise full well what we are.

These observers tell you what you are dealing with. They may be circumspect to begin with, hoping not to offend your sensibilities but over time their increasing exasperation causes them to come out and say it straight. Yet, such candour rarely finds favour with you because you do not like to be told something about someone as wonderful as us (or at least someone who was wonderful).

You do not like to think that the golden period has gone. You do not like to be deprived of the idea that what you once had will never come back or even that it did not exist to begin with.

Most of the reasons why you think like this is as a consequence of our manipulative behaviour, which further goes to underline that it is not your fault. Even your desire to see the good in people is not your fault either. That is who you are. We know that and we exploit it. It is our fault again but of course in the midst of the battle that we engage in with you, we will never admit that anything is our fault. That will never do.

Thus, your view of us is obscured and because of this you will always issue excuses to explain away our behaviour, our words and our actions. You make these excuses time and time again, to others and to yourselves.

You believe these excuses because this is how you think and you have been led towards this train of thought by the schooling you have received at our manipulative hands and mouths. You also utilise these excuses to continue to convince yourself that the unsavoury elements of our behaviour are just an aberration, on occasional blip in respect of an otherwise magnificent person.

Your charity is amazing and naturally most welcome for through this blinkered approach you divest us of responsibility for the things we do, something which aligns with one of our many stated aims. You prevent yourself from examining further the reality of what has now ensnared you and the repeated application of these excuses keeps you in situ.

We want you to utilise these excuses. We want to hear them. We want them said to us and to others. Your excuses frustrate and alienate those who are against us, your excuses support out manufactured façade and most of all they ensure you deny to yourself that which is directly before you. Here are twenty-five of those such excuses. You will have said them and probably more than once. Understand that each time you utter one you have issued a further death knell for your prospects of escaping us.

  1. He is just tired; it makes him snap.
  2. He doesn’t mean it, not really.
  3. You don’t have to pretend with me, I just want you to be yourself.
  4. He has a lot on his mind at the moment.
  5. Work is particularly stressful for him.
  6. He sometimes has a bit too much to drink, but hey, who hasn’t been there?
  7. I think perhaps I am too harsh on him at times, it is my fault really.
  8. He is in a bad place but he will come through it.
  9. He is a complex person; you don’t understand him like I do
  10. It is just the way he is; I have got used to it.
  11. I know it seems bad but he does so much that is lovely; this is only a small part of what he is like.
  12. Nobody knows him properly, that’s why you think bad of him.
  13. He is a popular guy so he is always going to have women hitting on him.
  14. He has a temper, I know, but that’s part of what he is and it’s not for us to change him.
  15. I need to be more supportive and then he will be better.
  16. He’s not well at the moment but I will help him get through it, you will see.
  17. You’ve only heard one side of the story; he is not like that at all.
  18. Yes, well, his family would say that about him to cover up what they did to him.
  19. All he needs is to be loved and I am the one who is going to do that for him.
  20. You don’t know what you are saying anymore, it is okay, I do understand.
  21. It was a one-off, it won’t happen again.
  22. I know it was wrong but this time he has promised that he won’t do it anymore.
  23. You don’t understand the way that me and him are together.
  24. You are just jealous of what we have. Why can’t you be pleasedfor us, for my sake?
  25. I’m sorry, it was my fault.

Sound familiar?

To understand the origins of emotional thinking, how it operates and most importantly what you can do about it, obtain The Addiction – Triple Package

305 thoughts on “How Your Emotional Thinking Causes Excuses

  1. countalexula says:

    Hg i av a question 4 u. In the ‘character trait acquisition’ video u speak of “narcs even taking on the mannerisms such as facial and body movements and speech and laughter of others etc 4 their own benefits further down the line.” ur spot on and i agree 100% with this.

    Accordingly though i av seen co-dependent empaths and contagion empaths down the years do this above with manerisms laughters, speech, laughter, body movements of other’s also. Subsequently I believe that co-dependent empaths do this cos they don’t know who they r. They don’t know who they r cos their so caught up in giving and helping steping and fetching etc 4 the narcissist and norms that they get their identity from. Their identity is their “doing” and not their “being.” Also the co-dependent empath wont be aware their doing the mimicking either, not unless they av woken up to this behaviour and matured or its been pointed out to em.

    Furthermore when i av met my kind and very very rarely do i meet my kind the contagion empath. I’ve also seen em doing this with the mannerisms mimicking, it’s cos the contagion empath takes on all the emotions and feelings of others through mimicking em. That doesn’t mean that every time a contagion empath takes on the emotions and feelings of others consciously or unconsciously they will mimic those peoples manerisms mind. Contagions also know their mimicking to, but most but not all contagions don’t know why they do the mimicking. And also they don’t mimic everyone.

    Moreover both these types of empath that mimick peoples manerisms r not doing it 4 character trait acquisition, or 4 fuel, or for personal goals through sinsister or selfish means either, they just do it, they mimick. Now i know u “may” say “Saint Anger their not co-dependent empaths or contagion empaths their actually narcs.” but i think that gets us off the hook to easily in accordance wiv a suitable, logical answer. Especially when i know some of these people who r genuine empaths and not narcs. Moreover once again i stress, both these types of empaths and no doubt other types of empaths to don’t do the manerisms mimicking on everybody, just sum people.

    Your professional thoughts please hg would be most appreciated. Love and fishes. Saint Anger.

  2. Eliza says:

    This is such an excellent discussion and I will be reading through tonight with a glass of Sangria as a treat 🙂 I will add a thought I had after reading just a quick skim of a few comments, can childhood illness be a factor in building empathic traits ? My family has many allergies both food and respiratory and so there was always illness in our lives. My mother always said that having illness makes us more understanding and compassionate. Trips the the hospital for breathing help for example. Just a thought.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hello Eliza,

      I don’t know the answer to your question. But, two narcissists who had a daughter who could not breath didn’t do a thing. I have often thought back on that, I easily could’ve died and they would not have even cared, I now realize how true this is. How sad. It may have helped with my empathy toward other ill people. Both of my ex’s had and have major health issues. Plus, my mother is a victim narcissist, so it was always all about her health, and I worried over her some, though this element didn’t show in her health until I was out of the house. It showed in other ways though. Enjoy your Sangria!

  3. NarcAngel says:

    Witch
    The wifi password scenario made me laugh out loud. So true. Also, when you see someone you know when you are out shopping etc. I am happy to say hello or smile and raise my hand, but there seems an expectation that you must get closer and engage. In one instance I was shopping and saw a co-worker. We both smiled and raised a hand in recognition and I continued toward a different area, but she felt the need to follow me. She made smalltalk but seemed uncomfortable and distracted. Finally, (with a pained expression like she was letting me down) she said: I’m really sorry, I have to go – I have to pick up my daughter, so we’ll talk another time. I responded: I’m not keeping you so go ahead, I had no intention of conversation – was just acknowledging that I saw you. She told someone else she ran into me and that I was rude haha. No consideration that I may have been in a hurry myself. Another woman came to my desk one day and started rambling on about her boyfriend. After a few minutes she winced and offered apologetically: I’m really sorry but I’m in a bit of a hurry, so I promise I’ll stop by another time. I responded: I’m fine, YOU came to MY desk. Again, I was perceived as rude.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      This is funny, NA. I can also relate to how others imagine that it is ‘rudeness’ when it isn’t.

    2. Witch says:

      @NA

      Maybe everyone is just pretending they enjoy these social norms when they don’t ?
      I’m not sure because one of my friends said she would get annoyed with me at work if I didn’t do certain “formalities” with her as I like to call them

  4. Another Cat says:

    AV, Witch
    About Small talk
    I have never yet to this day met one single person who said about themself that they enjoy smalltalk. (though a few narcs have stated that they adoooore mingling at parties)
    So don’t worry about that!
    Then a majority of people are on the autism spectrum, because Smalltalk seems to be a mystery to humans in general!

    1. A Victor says:

      AC, thank you for that! That is good to know! I do know some people who only seem to use small talk. I live in a state that is made up largely of Scandinavians and they are experts at small talk! All except for me, it seems! My grandmother’s friends would drop by for coffee and sit around and literally spend the entire time talking about the weather, sipping, sitting in silence and then some more weather. Every once in a while there would be an interjection about Uncle Harry’s new foal, or some such, but that would come and go with a comment or two and right back to the usual. Lol, it fascinated me as a kid!! So dull!! But they seemed to love it and kept coming around, so it couldn’t have been too bad for them. Nowadays I think you are correct, people are busy and it’s not as well practiced so more of an effort for many. Maybe we should just stop trying and let the chips fall where they may?

      1. Another Cat says:

        Maybe! I don’t really mind smalltalk, I’m just not so good at it, and it shows!

        1. Jasmin says:

          “I have never yet to this day met one single person who said about themself that they enjoy smalltalk”
          Thinking to myself -“I do”.
          “I live in a state that is made up largely of Scandinavians and they are experts at small talk!”
          Laughing becuase I Scandinavian!😂🙈
          But there is a good smalltalk which just comes naturally and there is a bad smalltalk which is the attempt to break an embarrassing silence.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Jasmin! I just found this comment! That is funny! And what’s even funnier is that I had you pegged as an ‘Arabian Princess’ ala Disney! Due to your username, of course! I love that name, btw. Thank you for your comment, it reinforces mine and, haha, that I have a true deficiency! But, as a result, I have learned to be much more comfortable with silence, refusing to be put in a position of keeping the conversation going any longer. That used to stress me out!

          2. Another Cat says:

            There is this guy at work, pretty cute, always silent. Only me and another guy talk to him. He smiles and greets us in the morning. But it’s rarely smalltalk. Other colleagues feel weird around the shy guy. So they leave him in silence.

            There is another silent guy at work, always looking sad and tired and displeased. I kind of understand that he’s a narc. The others also avoid him. I never tried the small talk there

  5. Another Cat says:

    LET, BC30

    Regarding Co-D traits, those can develop even with two empathic parents, like with my aunt. Because of the environment of growing up with a narcissist sibling (my mother). I feel rather sad to not be able to contact her due to my NC with my mother. My aunt would tell my mother right away about our interaction. (resulting in my mother stalking, coming over banging my door, blocking the stairs etc). Aunt is a really nice warm person and I miss her a lot.

    Narc siblings can create CoDs, ime.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      AC, I never thought of that, and the other dominating factors that could have an impact as per immediate, and even possibly, extended family. I imagine a lot depends on our own empathic nature and how that leads us. Perhaps even birth order. There are so many things to factor in! I appreciate you adding that. It’s given me a lot more food for thought.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Thanks LET, I always read your comments with joy and learning.
        The factor that made my mother a narc might have been the very poor circumstances, bib beautiful city, but a family of four living in a one room apartment. Very poor financially. Plus new guests every weekend, relatives from the countryside. It must have been rather stressful for aunt and mother. I’m baffled by my aunt’s positivity through life. Recently she became a grandmother, I read on FB. So happy for her.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AC, thank you so much for your kind words <3 They mean a lot to me xox

          I appreciate you sharing more about your mother and family circumstances. It certainly sounds like a LOCE and the GPD must have been in place, much like my own mother. It's sad when you think about it, and what could have made the difference. While I can empathize with my mother's circumstances, and I did for a very long time, especially as a child and also as an empath, I can no longer sustain the belief that having a relationship with her, and even pouring out all that empathy, is going to make a difference to the destructive nature of the same. She is a narcissist, will always be a narcissist, and as an empath I will continue to pay the price. I decided, even before I arrived here, it wasn't worth it. Coming here has convinced me.

          My heart felt sore for you when I read about your aunt, and how you read about her good news on FB 🙁 I do believe you are happy for her, which possibly increases your pain at having to be separated from her due to your no contact regime. It's a sad reality for some here. When family forms part of the coterie, up to an including lieutenants of the narcissist (which apparently Harry has become to wife MM – explains a lot), we are left with no choice, and it can become very isolating. It also takes a very strong person to maintain that position, AC. I really hope you and your children are reaping the benefits of getting out and staying out, even though I know it must be hard at times. If the FB option is making it harder, you might want to revisit that. I know it would make it harder for me. And I hate to say that, but it is part of the logic I am learning here. Nothing would send me into a downward spiral faster than having to confront my loss again. And I'm sure that's what it feels like.

          Please keep taking care of yourself in the current circumstances, and never forget we're here to support eachother. Your very kind words made a difference to me today <3 xox

    2. BC30 says:

      Probably. It remains to be seen, I eagerly await and hope HG will write a book focused on empaths. I can absolutely see how a narc sibling my create Co-Ds, but I wonder if having two empathic parents would make a difference. Narcs can be spoiled and smothered into being, mot just negative abuse.

      1. Violetta says:

        Empath parents might over-indulge in some aspect, but they won’t be controlling the way narc parents are. They’ll allow the kid to take credit for achievements instead of congratulating themselves on their good genes. They may even allow the kid to take responsibility for misdeeds, reasoning that a kid with no self-control will be an adult with a difficult life. Diana may have spoiled Harry by requests to have his favorite treacle tart added to a meal, but she also told nanny Tiggy to give him a spanking when necessary.

        The thing with narc parents is the kids are helpless. They’ll be mistreated even if they’ve done nothing wrong, or they might be spoiled even if they’ve behaved very badly indeed. HG’s mother did both. She didn’t care if he grew up fucked-up, as long as he reflected well on her.The point is it makes no difference how the kid behaves, because it’s all at the whim of the all-powerful parent.

        1. BC30 says:

          Regarding your comment below, if HG told a narc they were a narc, they wouldn’t believe it. They can only be the kindest and best empath that has ever graced humanity. lol

          1. Violetta says:

            I’d believe it if HG told me I was highly Narcissistic. I’d never believe it if he said I was a Normal, and neither would anyone who knows me!

  6. Kat w. says:

    Oh and HG you said you went to the lord and asked for help but you didnt get any. You just didnt get the answer you wanted. It didnt come on your terms. Thats why lucifer fell. See you at the end.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If you do see me at your end, praying will not do you any good for two reasons.

      1. It´s me you are dealing with.
      2. Nobody is listening.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Oh, HG, you do make me laugh!

    2. Violetta says:

      Kat W, I’m not sure what brand of Christianity you’re endorsing, but when a psychopath has a genuine conversion (pervert/murderer Alessandro Serenelli, for instance), the Catholic Church regards it as a miracle precisely because it doesn’t happen in the ordinary course of nature.

      See CS Lewis on miracles, because he makes a great argument that biblical people were not stupid modern people: people in 1st-century Judea, for example, understood perfectly well that women don’t usually become pregnant without male seed.

      In terms of conversions, Ananias was so skeptical when a divine message told him that notorious persecutor of Christians Saul had converted, he said the Aramaic equivalent of, “Are you shittin’ me?” He grasped perfectly how unlikely this was: it could only happen through supernatural means.

      I find it disturbing that rather than confining yourself to praying for a miracle regarding HG, as any reader is free to do, you reproach him for not having experienced one. Perhaps you ought to let God judge him instead of doing it yourself.

      1. TheVimtoSlut says:

        Lewis and Tolkien both have very interesting narratives when it comes to ‘The Other’. I’ve always had a deep fondness for Lewis even more than Tolkien.

        Saul was a sketchy bugger though. Don’t think he liked ‘the wimmins’.

        Bet he had a small dick.

        1. Violetta says:

          Saul is a pain-in-the-porthole. It just shows that God can find a use for anybody, even a pain-in-the-porthole.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            V, that is hilarious….. more politely put than I would have anyway 😉

  7. Kat w. says:

    A narcissist is the embodiment of all evil. If yoy study the devil, he will speak as every narcissist does. Every human has free will. They have chisen to run with theor evil tendencies because they simply cannot accept there is anything bigger or better ( God) besides themselves. They think they are free and they will have the last laugh, but becuase they have chosen to ( unconsciously) follow the devil, they do not realize and cannot accept that it is HE who has THEM in bondage. You think you are in control when it is really the devil who has you by the ballz. The devil will get the last laugh because he is liar. Always was, always will be. See you who choose to follow him on the other end of my sword in last battle. When you get to hell, I can’t dip my finger in the water for you anymore. I have studied science, and I have studied origins and history, the Bible and many other ancient texts. I have overcome evil tendencies and work towards doing so every day. Thats part of following the Lord. You never stop growing and learning and trying. The minute you think you have reached the top, you have the narcissist.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Unfortunately for you, you failed to study English.

      1. Eternity says:

        Haha good one HG! I think they need to read more of your books to educate themselves. I am not sure what they are smoking or what voices they are listening too. Probably hallucinating.

    2. Melmel says:

      Well that digressed quickly.

      I think it’s important that if your faith includes the belief that God can perform miracles and has already defeated the Evil that is in this world, that faith can sit quietly without condemning all those who disagree to eternal fire.

      Faith, like love is as much a choice as a feeling. It is believing in something when everything you see in this Fallen world points to the contrary. I believe that Jesus heals and that God has already conquered Evil; however, we still live in a Fallen world and there is much that no amount of Spirituality, faith, or empathy can change in that regard. If we believe that God can change it, then well and good. Let Him change it. It’s not up to you. Nothing you in your human (fallen) form do will affect this change. If it happens (and that is a BIG IF), it will be because of the miraculous power of the Almighty. Not me or you. And if it doesn’t happen, then it’s up to God to decide what happens next to each of our eternal souls.

      As for me, a peon in this Fallen world, I must do what I can to navigate these tempestuous storms. It does not serve me or my eternal soul to 1. Pass judgement on others because of their beliefs or lack thereof, 2. Believe that if I just pray harder, study His Word harder, or browbeat others into validating my faith, anything that I can do will affect the change I desire in an individual (narcissist) or group of individuals, 3. Keep myself stuck in my own growth and personal development by feeding the idea that because I am human there is something Wrong with me and so it is correct and right for me to suffer ongoing abuse at the hands of people who would seek to do me harm.

      The narcissist cannot change (if they do, it’s a miracle and has nothing to do with anything we have done).
      The narcissist does not want to change and we are not going to change their minds about that.
      God is God and that doesn’t need to look any different just because we accept that there are evil people in the world that can’t and do not want to change.

      My sword in the Final Battle will not be wielded against HG and his kind. It will be against the Destroyer who would seek to convince me that my own Evil is too dark for the Almighty to have Redeemed. That is the Great Lie that only the Lord of Light can conquer.

      1. Violetta says:

        “It will be against the Destroyer who would seek to convince me that my own Evil is too dark for the Almighty to have Redeemed”

        Yup. One of the forms of Presumption of God’s mercy. It is wrong to assume that God must forgive you, (especially if you commit a sin deciding in advance that you can repent later), but it is also wrong to assume that he cannot forgive you, and succumb to despair.

  8. NarcAngel says:

    Re: Interaction with animals helping to provide love and comfort.

    HG’s response: “It never helped me.”

    If the interactions were limited to eating them, that is an unsurprising result haha.

    1. Another Cat says:

      My ex (Upper Mid) got a cat from his empathic dad, it got new kittens every year, and it was my ex’s cats, the ones they didn’t find new homes to. Still no empathy (his mom is a Mid). Both his siblings are Nonnarcs. I don’t think it helps, the animal thing. We had parrots. Helped me develop the empathy I already had to begin with.

    2. njfilly says:

      Ha ha!

      He made the chicken of authenticity into the chicken on a rotisserie!

  9. NarcAngel says:

    I can identify with Leigh’s not actually feeling like she had a childhood or feeling like a child. People would often remark that I was older than my years, and as far back as I can remember, I can say that the feeling was always of responsibility. I cannot identify with being carefree or whimsical at all. As outlined in my Letter to the Narcissist – I was 5 yrs old when he came into our lives and yet I knew instinctively and immediately that something about him was very wrong. Not sure about having an inner creature, but I did often describe my gut feelings as having a dragon awaken (like a slow simmering) inside with regard to manipulators or those who would attempt to take advantage of myself or others. I now identify that more (in my learning here) with it being logic fighting it’s way to be made known and disgust (trait of pride) with the manipulator for thinking themselves more intelligent than I (Lessers and Mids) when I actually thought them to be less than and clumsy. I can identify more with an inner child because I have always felt guided by my 5 yr old self telling me that something was wrong and that it was not my fault. She stood by me, and I by her, to never forget what it felt like then, and that when we were able to, we would not accept that way of living for ourselves. I didn’t know that it would take so long, but she can rest now. We have learned to accept less responsibility for others and more for ourselves with the time we have left. I wish that for others as well.

    1. Leigh says:

      Beautifully stated. I’m glad you’re 5 year old self can rest now. Maybe she can finally be carefree and whimsical too.

      1. A Victor says:

        I have very few memories from my childhood. Until quite recently only on or two positive ones. Still only a few. Life was very serious, horribly so. Fun only happened away from my parents but there was a bit at times then. Like Njfilly said, some people should not have kids.

        1. Leigh says:

          I agree! I don’t think I have many fun memories either. The ones I do have are with friends and outside of my home.

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest A Victor,
          My mum asked me the other day over the phone “what was your happiest time?” only because she keeps rabbiting on about her happiest time and that certainly didn’t include me. For her, it was a job she once had (I thought she had taken the cat medication by mistake, she never asks me about me) haha
          I was so taken aback, I was stunned like a deer in headlights
          I replied, with 30 seconds of think music “apart from having kids, it think it would be travelling …..that made me happy) …she responded with a “hmmm” …..then it was back to her, surprise surprise !!!

          Upon reflection, I recall my brother n I rescuing two gorgeous kittens from a creek, after severe badgering to mum, we were able to keep them. That made me overwhelmingly happy! Eventually, one of the cats escaped out of the house to follow us to school (my mum was home at the time) and got run over …..I blamed her and God …..I was 7 years old, I never replaced that cat and I stopped going to church! We had to give our other cat to our grandma when she married psychopath step dad no 1, ( I was then 8) A kitten he had (that I immediately fell in love with) mysteriously disappeared overnight!

          Like yourself AV… I enjoyed myself away from my mum and whatever love interest had at the time ! Happy childhood memories do not resonate for me with my mother, as well as adult memories for that matter
          She should not have had kids !
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  10. leelasfuelstinks says:

    “He was a bad boy in his past, he was promiscuous, but he loves me like he never loved anyone before. With me it will work because I´m his soulmate. I am the The One.” 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️
    (Young Leela with her Upper Lesser A Somatic)

    1. A Victor says:

      Young AV with her mid-ranger too. Exactly what you said minus the “I’m his soulmate”. Uncanny.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Yeees! But WEEEEE “can change them” WEEE can “help them”. 🤦‍♀️ Right? Oh boy, we´re Empaths. 😊

        1. A Victor says:

          Ugh, that’s what I thought.

          Yes, weeee really are. Smiling through tears right now, being an empath is a good thing.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            🤗 let it out

          2. A Victor says:

            I’m good again. Thanks. 🙂

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            We have a “Creature” too. I have no idea whether that is an Empath-thing, an ACON-thing or a Super Empath thing, but I have “The Creature”, a crying inner child. It´s just not imprisoned and more developed than the narc-“Creature”. One reason to go Supernova is to protect “The Creature”. Similar mechanism but less severe than in a narc and kept in check by emotional empathy. That´s why our self-defense is not as effective compared to NPD. It´s like: NPD did not form because empathy developed. “Not fully formed narcissists” or whatever, no idea.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, interesting to read. Maybe it’s an ACON ‘thing’? Whether it is a parent, care-giver or someone else (baby / child could be adopted)? I liked “One reason to go Supanova….”. Good analogy in your comment, thank you for sharing.

          5. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You´re welcome. Please note that I have no scientific proof for it but it´s worth to think about it. I think it´s an ACON-thing too. I see many “similarities” between the self-defense mechanisms of narcissists and Super Empaths.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Yes, it is worth a consideration. Do you think Co-Dependents can also have similar characteristics likened to the self-defense mechanisms? Even if the individual with Co-D emapth traits does not have any of those found within a Super Empath?

          7. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I read in the book “Chained” that Co-Ds have no self-defense at all. They are only The Creature. They have no narcissistic traits to defend themselves. I think other Emps are lower in narcissistic traits and thus, less self-defense, the highest in narcissistic traits are Super Empaths.

          8. BC30 says:

            Oh gawd. Really? Co-Ds don’t have narcissistic traits? That is the only School I am missing. I couldn’t imagine. 😥

          9. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Co-Ds have no narcissistic traits, that´s why they do not defend themselves. I´m missing Co-D too. And Contagion.

          10. leelasfuelstinks says:

            To me, somehow it seems that Co-Ds and Super Empaths may be a kind of “failed narcissists” or so. 🤷‍♀️ Co-Ds have only The Creature, Super Empaths have The Creature and the self-defense, but became somehow highly empathic anyway 🤷‍♀️ I don´t know. No offense, no insult to anyone, just my own perception.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you for that. It gives me an insight and possibly explains what I had already thought in the past – I believe I would have become a narcissist if I had not gone to boarding school when I was 11, yet in my case, I think the narcissism development would have occurred possibly later than those who do not have my other personality characteristics. Then again, I do not know whether the empath in me would have been stronger than my developing into a narcissist…….. I will know for sure when I get my EDC / TDC done at some point in the future – I should get these done! Thank you once again 🙂

          12. A Victor says:

            Hi Leela, you’re the third or fourth person in about as many days to bring up the inner child to me. I will have to add it to my list of questions. While it makes sense to me that there are unresolved issues, I struggle with the whole “reparenting” idea, seeing it more as I need to “get a grip” as an adult. Either way, since it keeps coming up, I will address it. I do remember extremely strong emotional reactions to things as a child, I believe I was born an empath, those emotions already in place in me. I did stuff them, as protection, for many many years. But I don’t believe I was ever on my way toward narcissism. I have wondered if the ones that do go that way, not only have the gene but also have the same or stronger emotions at the outset thus making it so painful they had no other option but to allow the narcissism to take over. I know the level of pain I had from my emotions was extreme, only my siblings seemed as affected by things as I was. My parents didn’t have a clue about this, of course, so we had to protect ourselves. My younger sister had it even worse than I and I believe is a narcissist, what made she and I different? She had the gene? She was hurt more deeply? My empathy developed, hers did not? She was hurt more at a younger age? I don’t know. These are things I ponder. Thanks for sharing and for listening.

          13. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Nobody knows why one turns narc and the other empath, genetics of course, but there is also epigenetics, many many environmental factors, especially as infant and then toddler. NPD forms during early childhood.

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Leela, I have popped in here and ask you about two things.

            One is talk of a ‘creature’ for empaths/SEs/ACONS. I don’t remember HG ever mentioning that idea, but if you are comparing it to the true self of the narcissist (which becomes the Creature) and their false self or construct, then I would have to disagree that empaths have a ‘creature’ per se. I see you have mentioned a crying inner child and that seems to be where the comparison comes in. The narcissist sees the Creature as very threatening which is how I perceive it from their perspective, and I’m just wondering if you see the inner child as threatening also? And is that why you compare it to the Creature? Or is it just a part of yourself you see as distinct and separate which continues to try to make its presence known? I feel as empaths we are much more integrated than narcissists, though that doesn’t mean wholly integrated. I’m not sure many people ever achieve that. But as an empath, I would want to embrace that little child and not shun it like the narcissist does the Creature. I just think they are two very different things, but accept people can view them in whatever way is most helpful to them.

            The other thing I wanted to touch on are your comments around CoD’s and the idea that they have no narcissistic traits. I think everyone has narc traits and they come in different degrees. I am majority CoD, almost equivalent on all my narc traits and I am also strong minority SE. It would seem that the two couldn’t possibly go together, but apparently they do. So unless someone is 100% CoD, they would have to have narc traits, and I believe they would have them even if they are 100% CoD.

            What was most interesting which I read in a comment the other day was that HG said only 15% of the population is CoD. I always thought we would be a majority of empaths, like at least half. Unless we are majority of empaths, but not the general population.

            Anyway, just want to try and clarify around CoD’s and narc traits as well as the notion of the Creature for empaths. Both these things were a little confusing for me when I read them here.

          15. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Interesting! Okay, but first comes first: Yes I brought up The Creature in Empaths/Super/ACONs, but this is just a little hypothesis I made, there´s no scientific proof or anything. The reason why I called the inner child The Creature is that it CAN be a little threatening to us, not in that way as for the narc, but it is the inner child that may cause trouble.

            It is our “Creature” which is hit by the love bombs of the narc. The love bombs hit us like a truck because we have this little “Creature”, a weak spot, an under-developed part of us, formed by childhood trauma. It may be the cause of our ET.

            To be continued … (don´t want to make the post too long)

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            The unloved child will very much be hit by the love bombs of the narc … it is a huge vulnerability for ACONs. And I imagine it has a lot to do with ET, and a rise in the same. I’ll look forward to hearing any further thoughts you might post, Leela. Thanks.

          17. leelasfuelstinks says:

            “The unloved child will very much be hit by the love bombs of the narc … it is a huge vulnerability for ACONs. ”

            Yes, Yes and Yes! Exactly this! 👍

            The love bombs exactly hit the Little Unloved Child and it was all about proving that I´m good enough!

          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            Good enough and worthy of the love – that’s what the narc leads us to believe. Until we’re not good enough and become unworthy = devaluation. It really is a cruel dynamic when you think of it that way. It’s like picking those petals of a flower saying “he loves me, he loves me not”. The narc is picking our petals saying “I love her, I love her not”. And with about as much concern as we have for the petals of the flower.

          19. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Exactly! Very well stated! Love Bombing = finally we´re good enough. Devaluation = putting salt and acid into our wounds!

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, Leela 🙂 And exactly! Very well stated on your part, too x

          21. A Victor says:

            Leela, your explanation of our weak spot, an under-developed part of us, which makes us susceptible to the love bombing makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t think it is necessarily only the Super empath that develops the defense however, I believe all empaths who come from a LOC environment, but have the empath gene, can develop into some kind of empath. I think that is what I read/heard somewhere. And that it is dependent on also having the NPD gene or not, in which case it could go either way, or neither.

            And, we also know of empaths who didn’t have an LOC background at all but still became empaths. I have no idea the breakdown of Super’s vs other empaths as ACONs or Non-ACONs of course. I think it is something in the gene pool, and/or the upbringing they experience, that pushes a would be empath to a specific type. I have “only” a “very strong minority element” of Super and yet I believe Super potential was there when I was born, along with my other school. I believe that had my parents been healthy, they could’ve taught me to use that and made it into a very strong benefit, maybe I would’ve crossed the threshold into Super. Or, on the reverse, they could’ve influenced me to reduce somehow, for some reason, maybe seeing too much could pose a problem for me is some way, I mean, there is influence certainly on our genes. Maybe neither of these things are true and I was born with that percentage and nothing would’ve changed it either way. Same with someone who is born with higher CoD tendencies, for example, maybe could be raised to pull out and use those few narc traits they have, to make a person with a bit more ability to say no, for example. I am doing the same as you and theorizing. I just don’t see the connection yet of the NPD and the Super being so closely related. They come from two different genes, you have one, the other or both. And the empath one could be geared toward any of the empath groups, not only Super. Not saying empaths don’t suffer the same as narcs as children, we do. I just think our defenses are more varied. Maybe this is why we are more able to adapt later in life than the narcs can.

            Normals and narcissistic people can also develop from the above scenarios, they may have a gene for either or both, but not the mix in their upbringing to cause it, or they may be missing one gene or both. I wonder if it could happen that they have the genes and and LOC environment and still come out as normals or narcissistic?

            Anyway, this is fascinating and I appreciate your thoughts, they really give me food for thought. I am trying to weigh the thoughts, yours, mine, others, against what I have read or seen from HG. I think you pull in from other sources more, which I also appreciate, I’m not ready for doing a lot of research medically yet on my own. I may never feel a strong need to, so I do appreciate you bringing that aspect.

          22. leelasfuelstinks says:

            The connection between Super and Narc may lie in the 1) Inner Child (Super), The Creature (Narc) and 2) The self-defense mechanisms.

            Can´t take criticism either. Have a hard time handling it. It wounds but not that badly. It brings out the Inner Child and the Inner Critic. This asks for a self-defense. We deny and deflect as well but not as steong as narcs do. We go Supernova. We manipulate too but not in that large extent, empathy still keeps narc-traits in check.

            Without empathy I would have become a somatic narc. I act like one very often, but empathy keeps it in check. I don´t steal, I don´t borrow money, I don´t make depths.

            The Empath has inner breaks, we know when we shouldn´t cross the line. The narc does not.

            Just some brainstorming…

          23. A Victor says:

            Same, brainstorming. I’m just wondering if it’s only the Supers or if it could be that empaths in general could fall into this same but their particular gene “bent” brings a different result. I am not a Super but I don’t handle criticism well, for example. But I figured out a way to deal with it as a child, same as you or the narcissists. My highest narcissist trait is pride, I wonder if that’s being affected here. I just don’t think Supers are that much more similar to narcissists, but instead still more similar to empaths, they are empaths after all and no matter how high their narc traits are, they are still much lower than their empathic traits, from what I understand. The floodlight to the candle flame…

          24. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I am exactly 50:50 (H.G. if it´s not okay to say that, just please delete). Now what? 😀 😉

          25. A Victor says:

            Yes, but it is still, from HG’s description, floodlight to candleflame. I don’t understand it, clearly. It’s going on my list of questions!! 🙂

          26. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I personally have the impression that it´s way stronger than just a little candlelight, but that´s only my personal perception. 🤷‍♀️

          27. A Victor says:

            Have you heard him talk about that? I think it was in the supernova video. Maybe somewhere else also.

          28. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, it was the Supernova video.

          29. A Victor says:

            I watched that video again last night, along with several others about Supers and Empaths in general. I also looked at the traits and descriptions etc in Sitting Target. It says everywhere that the narc traits are lower than empathic traits in Empaths, all of us, including Supers. But, I wonder if it means the empathy goes out as a spotlight, to many people, a broad application. And when a supernova happens, that empathy is dimmed so that the candlelight can be shown toward the narcissist only, very brightly but very specific, directed just at the narc.

            I also considered that maybe your candle is enormous, maybe with multiple wicks, giving off a bonfire type flame, but still the spotlight is technically “brighter” so it shows more easily. Then, given a reduction in empathy, the bonfire is exposed, again toward the narcissist only but much bigger and more dangerous/challenging to them than say a CoD’s single candlestick flame might be? And that there are various sizes of candles dependent on the amount of E or N traits and the strength of them.

            Now to re-listen to the explanation of the EDC and NDC, that’s where I think some of my confusion is coming in. Thanks for bearing with me on this!!

          30. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I use to put it this way: We go Supernova only for self-defense! Supernova is not about destroying anybody or to our advantage, it is self-defense ONLY! In contrast to the narc, we Empaths have what I call “inner breaks”. We may show our narcissistic traits, we stand up for ourselves, we defend ourselves, but we still know when we shouldn´t cross the line. We never cross the red line, due to empathy. We know when it´s enough. The narc doesn´t. They don´t have any “inner breaks”.

          31. A Victor says:

            Oh no, I understand the Supernova, I think. And I’m coming to think I used to have them with some frequency, early in my relationship with my ex. And that it wasn’t until after they calmed down, due to a variety of reasons, that he decided to get married to me. They did happen again after the wedding also, for a short time, but not for long. I then became resigned and kind of gave up. Just looking toward the time the kids would be grown and he and I could have time together. Well, that obviously didn’t happen. I attributed a lot of things to the time of our life, childrearing and working on a career, being a lot of the stress. That thinking was clearly misplaced.

          32. leelasfuelstinks says:

            It´s simply a knee-jerk reaction. It just happens. Automatically, like breathing. It happens when it comes to defending yourself.

          33. A Victor says:

            Yes, that’s what mine were like. And there was no fear involved.

          34. leelasfuelstinks says:

            So, the narc-Creature comes from developmental arrest. If you feel strong enough, see the videos of René Spitz, for study purposes only, please! The Creature forms because the infant or toddler doesn´t receive the love and care it needs. The emotional needs of the child are not met. Same for ACONs! So, as a cause of that, the child does not develop properly, the personality of the child cannot form. The personality deteriorates and many of those children die before age 2. So: In order to survive, the infant or toddler creates the False Self: the construct and becomes a narc.

            With Empaths/SE/ACONs this process may be less severe. We may experience the lack of love and care later in life. We develop PARTIALLY! So, one part remains The Creature but it´s not so bad that it has to be imprisoned, it is attached to our True Selves and becomes a part of it. But we have to defend it. We develop similar self-defense mechanisms as the narc (Super Empath), just less severe.

            The Co-D indeed is very low in narcissistic traits, see the book “Chained”. There it is written. 🙂

          35. HG Tudor says:

            I suggest distinguishing this hypothesis of the empath having “The Creature” from The Creature that is present with the narcissist otherwise it will cause confusion.

          36. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, thank you, Sensei, you´re right. Maybe we should call “The Empath Creature” differently.

          37. HG Tudor says:

            No maybe about it LFS!

          38. Asp Emp says:

            HG, I do not wish to get painted black for asking – what would you call (label, if you like) the ‘darkness’ within an empath that I instinctively felt but became aware of such through the learning I have obtained on your site?

          39. HG Tudor says:

            The manifestation of narcissistic traits.

          40. Asp Emp says:

            I get it……. it’s still a mucho mouthful cos of the number of syllables in saying those words (gawd, I’m laughing again !!)……. ok, ‘The M.O.N.T’ ? It’s far shorter……

          41. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Alright! Let´s call it ” thehurt inner child” instead.

          42. HG Tudor says:

            I have addressed in another comment what it is you are dealing with LFS.

          43. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks for that further explanation, Leela, and I will look up those videos. I do believe we suffer the same lack of love, etc, but do not have the genetic predisposition for narcissism, therefore we are impacted differently. Not because we suffer less. But we definitely need to also develop self-defense mechanisms in order to survive. For the CoD, this becomes their need to please and cater to the narcissist, I think. They become accommodating in order to deflect any backlash. I have Chained, and don’t remember reading about the low narc traits, but I will take another look.

          44. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I remember that it´s written there that Co-Ds only have “The Creature”? Let´s look up!

          45. A Victor says:

            Leela, sorry for a separate comment, I should’ve combined with my previous one. But, I just wanted to add one thing, likely related to Rene Spitz, I cannot watch that however.

            I have known a couple of families who have adopted from understaffed orphanages overseas (European countries). The children were absolutely unable to connect, it was a living hell for the entire family in both of these cases. This was due to zero nurture as infants and toddlers, it is a known phenomenon. I don’t know if it ties in to having either the NPD gene or the empath gene, I just know that humans need interaction and physical contact as infants/toddlers/children to develop properly. And the children in these orphanages, not having any, may have been sunk regardless of gene pool. It is heartbreaking. And there has yet to be developed a cure for it, it is a serious attachment disorder. I also don’t know if some of those children are able to become functional people or what percentage it might be. But the percentage of this phenomenon is pretty high and it is very severe.

          46. leelasfuelstinks says:

            And I think NPD is one of the ways to become a more or less functional person anyway. It is a way not to die. The child doesn´t get love from the primary care-giver, it has to love himself or herself. NPD somehow hyper compensates this but it is very clear why the individual with NPD cannot bond to anyone. Parts of the brain shut down, personality deteriorates and never fully develops. But you have to survive anyway so you create an illusion, a delusion: The False Self.

            It takes over in order to safe your life. Everything else deteriorates, ossifies, freezes and never develops. That´s the True Self, The Creature. That is the little child who would have died from Marasmus. René Spitz pointed out that about 37 % of those children die before age 2. So, either you create a False Self or you die.

            If you don´t get your emotional needs met as infant and toddler, you never develop emotions, at least not the positive ones, only the negative. The Creature came to life when development of the True Self arrested.

          47. A Victor says:

            Yes, you said that well, it’s a way not to die. That’s what I meant recently when I said, in another thread, that ok didn’t have a choice but to survive, the best I could. For me it wasn’t NPD but it was survival. Thank you, I hadn’t known the 37%, those couldn’t develop a way to survive, probably empaths, no NPD gene. So far.

          48. leelasfuelstinks says:

            No NPD or no Super? 🤷‍♀️ At least no self-defense. Did you know that I exhibited pretty bad antisocial behavior as a child? Yes, I did. Trying to figure when empathy came! 🤷‍♀️

          49. A Victor says:

            I don’t see the children coming out of that situation in the orphanages as Supers, that would be a good result, but it is not what I have seen or heard. We can hope it is true for some, but we cannot discount that it could also be different “flavors” of empaths as well. CoD might be quite able to survive, they don’t expect anything, they don’t fight for anything, they are resigned, I think this could get them through this situation if it were their situation. Again, just hypothesizing. I don’t know anything for sure. But, I do think that Supers are empaths, not narcissists, so it would be more likely in my mind that they would die, as any empath would.

            I had several years of “rebellion” if you will also. Went crazy. I really thought I was a sick and twisted person. Come to find out, I was just responding to the years of abuse, once I was finally sort of free of it, the physical stuff anyway. And I had put a wall around my head and heart so I was largely insulated from the emotional etc as well. It was easy as I never felt bonded to my family, not a bit. Many years later, I did want to take care of my dad as he died, but my mother I could put somewhere and walk away. If she gets too horrible, I will do so, but right now she leaves me alone. I believe I was born with empathy, or the capacity for it, and it developed regardless, or maybe even because of, my situation. I didn’t want to hurt others, like my mother did, dad was largely gone and much less abrasive when he was there. So I realized early I preferred not to hurt others, as she did, her hurting of others broke my heart. I then resisted being like her in every way I could going forward. And she has always fought this and tried to believe I am just like her. She doesn’t even know me.

          50. leelasfuelstinks says:

            My story is similar, except for the empathy which came late. I went crazy too, in fact: I indeed am crazy. Diagnosed with a mental illness, besides being a Super Empath 🤪

          51. A Victor says:

            I thought i had lost my empathy, I didn’t even remember having it at that point. I was very cold hearted, using people carelessly. But, later I came to regret it. That’s one reason i know i am not a narcissist. But mostly because HG told me I’m not. Being a Super Empath, or any kind of empath, is good, in my opinion!

          52. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I made the EDC because I thought, there´s something wrong with me, I thought I could maybe have NPD 😀

          53. A Victor says:

            That’s why I did it soon after I got here! I was worried I was a narc! It was most reassuring!

          54. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Me too. I was worried that I have some combined personality disorder. I remember reading about Super Empaths and thinking: “Fortunately that´s not me” 🤣🤣🤣 “Poor Super Empaths, glad, I don´t have that much empathy” 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Then the results came and I go like: WTF? 😱

          55. A Victor says:

            You were surprised by that? And for that reason? Interesting, I hadn’t connected the extra empathy part until your comment. Last night it occured to me that you’re the combo that the Upper Lessers like, not sure why that hadn’t connected before. I’m glad you’ve accepted your Super status now! It’s a great thing! Empaths are awesome, no matter which type! Though the names make sense as to the meaning, I wish Standard had a bit more glam name and CoD also. I feel like that makes some of us who are in those groups feel a bit “less than”, which technically we are, but only as defined, not as people, to myself at least. Something like…haha, this is the problem, nothing comes to mind! Sparkling Standards? Sweet CoDs? Haha, too much typing!

          56. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Indeed! My ex was an Upper Lesser A Somatic. The only narc whose IPPS I was. You´re not “lesser” Empaths! Who says that? You know what? Before I knew what I was and the first time I read about Super Empaths I thought: “That must be pathetic” 😂🤣🤪 “Those poor Super Empaths with their empathy, what poor individuals” 🤪😂😂😂😂😂

            EDC: “You´re a Super Empath” Me: WTF? Oh Shit! 😂😂😂🤣🤣

          57. A Victor says:

            Lesser only in the sense that we have fewer and less strong Empathic and Narcissistic traits. Not less as people or as empaths of course. None of us are pathetic!! I have really enjoyed this conversation Leela! It has been very educational and fun! Thank you!

          58. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You´re welcome. It was just funny, how I first thought “Oh those poor Super Empaths. So sorry for those pathetic individuals” (had no idea what it is, thought, Super Empaths have NO self-defense mechanism). Well, Hello, I´m one of those “pathetic individuals” 😂😂😂😂😆😆🤣

          59. A Victor says:

            Haha, and you definitely have a great self-defense mechanism! That is another way the rest of us can be considered to have less. So, now I understand why being a Super is so coveted, it had been confusing to me before. Thank you again!

          60. A Victor says:

            Darn, so sad*. Not so far.

          61. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I would guess that the emotional needs of the Super Empath had been partially met when they were infants and toddlers, the emotional needs of the little to-be-narc have been not met. Then comes the genetic factor, the genetic predisposition towards NPD. Children who carry the genetic combination switch on that self-defense survival mechanism and create a False Self. They must, in order to survive and cope with the situation, the lack of care, the lack of love. The False Self seems to be created early in life, maybe until age 3.

            The Super Empath may experience similar situations but not that severe and self-defense develops later in life, while the personality already has formed.

            NPD = development arrest before age 3 + self defense-survival-mechanism
            ACON/Super Emp = partial developmental arrest (> age 3) + self defense

            Disclaimer: This is only a theory, a hypothesis. Little is know about the psyche of the Empaths and Super Empaths.

          62. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, Leela, I know you are SE as well, so it’s interesting to read your impressions around that, and I know you are also waiting for HG to maybe give us more insight into how the different schools of empath might be created. Well, we know about CoD from Chained, but the SE is a little more elusive. I appreciate you sharing more of your thoughts around that x

          63. A Victor says:

            LET, I believe Standard is largest empath group. Empaths are 1.5 out of 6? If I’m remembering the numbers correctly, 15% sounds right. You are in a very exclusive group LET, with your combo. Both of your schools and your Magnet cadre are sought after by Greaters and the Ultra, again if my memory serves me. So… be alert! 🙂

          64. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks for clarifying , AV <3 It's a strange combo and I'm glad HG has created the option for us to understand ourselves better with his classifications. Haha to be alert! You have a good memory, so I better be xox

          65. A Victor says:

            LET, I had the numbers wrong! So sorry! I should’ve checked first but I think 15% is still solid.

          66. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, Standard is the largest school of Empaths, then Co-D, then Super and the rarest are the Contagions. Yes, Greaters and The Ultra look for Magnet traits. Lessers, Mid-Rangers and the Victim cadre look for Saviors. Lessers and Mid-Ranges may prefer Co-Ds or Standards, Supers are too hard to control for them. We´re not submissive enough. 😉 😂 Contagion I don´t know.

          67. A Victor says:

            Thank you, I had forgotten the exact breakdown and didn’t know some of the attraction elements.

          68. A Victor says:

            I think Lessers and Victims look for a high percentage of Carrier also.

          69. A Victor says:

            Which leads me to be curious if narcissists look more for the school or the cadre. I have also wondered if sometimes they take on an empath without understanding or without seeing the potential issues that could arise, or if they see a challenge and think it could be fun, as in the case of a Lesser taking on a Super.

          70. WhoCares says:

            A Victor,

            “I have also wondered if sometimes they take on an empath without understanding or without seeing the potential issues that could arise, or if they see a challenge and think it could be fun”

            I think that this is a good observation AV, and that it is correct that Lessers and Mid-rangers like Carrier traits, because it’s energy saving for them and Carrier empaths tend to take on more than their fair share of the burden.

            I think that Super, or even Magnet traits, can be enticing to them but hard to manage. I don’t think they view it as a challenge or “fun” – I just think that they benefit, in the beginning, from those traits.

            For example, initially my ex was happy to benefit from the fact that I had a good job in academia and that my personal pursuits garnered attention in the community, and therefore, gave him trait acquisition and connections to a new fuel matrix. Also, I have Magnet traits so he was happy to have someone who draws people to them – until, in devaluation, it became a source of great jealousy for him. And that jealousy created a big problem for him, which I don’t think he actively sought as a challenge or fun when he first met me.

          71. A Victor says:

            Hi WhoCares,
            That it’s an interesting side that I had not realized. They may come to dislike the thing that attracted them initially. They do live moment by moment so if the fuel can be acquired, maybe that’s enough, at that moment. I suppose the Lessers and Mid-rangers don’t put much thought into it. I think Mid-rangers like Saviors better, over Carriers. Lessers like Carriers because, if I can say it, they’re lazy? I heard HG say these somewhere I think. Maybe on the blog article for each, or in Fuel?

            I do wish I had a little Magnet. You all that have it seem so calm.

          72. WhoCares says:

            AV,

            “I think Mid-rangers like Saviors better”

            Yes, I recall reading/hearing that. Because many Mid-ranger want to be “saved”, whereas the Lesser is like “Saved from what?”

            “I do wish I had a little Magnet. You all that have it seem so calm.”

            Really? I hadn’t put the two together…I thought it was due to the stoic nature of the Carrier, lol. (And lack of Geyser traits in my case.) Although, I am capable of being very calm under fire and can put my emotions aside to deal with an issue at hand (like self-representing at court) and in contrast I have an empath friend with more Geyser qualities and she has to work harder at presenting calmly.

            If I present as calm on the blog, I attribute that to having no narcissists in my immediate life and the best NC, I can do, with my past narcissists.

            A Victor, I find you to be a very calm commenter, as well as thoughtful and articulate.

          73. A Victor says:

            WhoCares,

            Thank you for your kind words. I have been told in real life that i present as calm also. It was a complete shock the first time, 3 or 4 years ago. I have since asked a few people who have confirmed it. I don’t feel calm but have had no knowledge of how I present to others. It goes back to the sense of self issue I think. My parents didn’t help me develop this, they never spoke to it except as negatives. I intentionally did for my children, realizing early on that not knowing how I appear to others is a problem but not feeling comfortable to ask for fear of seeming needy or prideful. How many people would understand it is an honest question? My ex only encouraged my parent’s negative image, so he was no help. Narcissists in my life, especially those who use word salad, are the only ones who have commonly questioned my thoughtfulness and articulateness. This is interesting to realize. Most people know if we keep discussing, where there is a lack of understanding, that we will come to understand. I am very thankful for your input regarding this.

            To me you do present as calm and measured, very much so. As well as thoughtful and articulate! You are in a good place in sounds like, with no narcs around and decent NC. A lot of hard work went into this, I am sure! Happy for you to be having success!

            The image in my mind of the Magnet going through the crowd with ease and enjoyment made me think of calm. Carriers may also have a calm, knowing they have it all under control, that makes sense. Saviors and Geysers wilould struggle more with this I think. Saviors internally and Geysers outwardly, in my mind anyway. Coming to understand my makeup a bit better recently, I have realized the stress of wanting certain things for other people weighs heavily sometimes. But even though I feel it, it must not show as much as I think it would, considering how much I’m feeling. It is a constant sensation and as such has been very difficult to identify.

            You would possibly do quite well as a medic, staying cool under pressure. And in court, very impressive!! That would just be terrifying!

          74. WhoCares says:

            AV,

            “It was a complete shock the first time, 3 or 4 years ago. I have since asked a few people who have confirmed it. I don’t feel calm but have had no knowledge of how I present to others. It goes back to the sense of self issue I think. My parents didn’t help me develop this, they never spoke to it except as negatives.”

            I think, as a consequence of our interactions with the narcissist, that our self perceptions become habitual skewed. Because, really, in a situation of isolation, and being subjected repeatedly to the narcissist’s “opinion” of us – what else are we to believe? Or as a consequence of long-term gas-lighting etc…we simply accept their narrative of who we are.

            I recently spoke with the coordinator of the organization who handles the supervised access visits between my son and his father and as I was going off on explaining or updating him on the legal ramifications of our situation, in response to one other issues, I spontaneously said (with sarcasm): “But, of course, *I* am the difficult one.” And he, the coordinator, said – with equal spontaneity, and the addition of honesty – “You’re not difficult.” He had a perplexed look on his face. And I knew he was right. Right, because I knew he knew my ex (and had had multiple conversations with him) AND he had had much interaction with many parents who are the “visiting” party or non-custiodial parents, whom many of are abusive and/or narcissists (so you can bet dealing with them is difficult) and his perspective was a true one, of me, in comparison with dealing with so many others. I thought, to myself, “Oh right, I am quite easy to get along with, not normally demanding, quite agreeable etc..” But in insolation, and without the feedback of genuine others or empaths, I am still susceptible to the narrative of the narcissist – because I was fed it for so long. I think, as Empaths, we sometimes forget the power that we have to validate the truth and the shared experiences that we endured. I am happy to share my input regarding my perspective of you, AV.

            “You are in a good place in sounds like, with no narcs around and decent NC. A lot of hard work went into this, I am sure! Happy for you to be having success!”

            I have worked hard for this. Thank-you AV.

            “Magnet going through the crowd with ease and enjoyment made me think of calm. Carriers may also have a calm, knowing they have it all under control, that makes sense.”

            I really only possess a sense of calm when I have prepared, in advance, of being in front of a crowd.

            Medic? Me? No. Haha. But, yes, because I had to and because the aim was to protect my child I was able to present calmly in court and because of my preparation (and HG’s input), it was not, nor has ever been terrifying.

          75. leelasfuelstinks says:

            No no no no no! Thank you very much! Don´t want them! No way!

          76. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! I’m glad!!

          77. Asp Emp says:

            AV, referring to HG’s ‘Empath Quiz’ video – one of the mulitple-choice questions was to put the empath school into order (from the largest to the smallest) – answer was : Standard; Co-Dependent; Super and Contagion.

            According to HG’s ‘The Ultra Framework’ video, Empaths 2 : 6 and Narcissists 1 : 6. In this video, the ratio of normals and nose-down normals are also given. These ratios can also be used to calculate how many are from where on the spectrum out of the world’s population – when it is worked out, it can be eye-opening, in real terms.

            It would be interesting to know more about how many empaths, have what schools / cadres – yet there are so many variations (mixtures) found within empaths.

          78. A Victor says:

            Shoot, I got the numbers wrong. 😳

          79. A Victor says:

            It wouldn’t be as hard to say the percentage of empaths that have each school and cadre though, understanding that it wouldn’t equal 100. Or the percent within a percent, ie, 10% of all empaths surveyed fall within 75-100% Magnet, for example. But, as interesting as some of us would find that, the time involved putting it together would likely make it unreasonable to spend the time that way. And likely not a lot would find it that interesting. I just tend towards a bit a nerdiness, all about graphs and charts.

          80. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I understand how much work it takes to create a system that gathers and provides information systematically. I used to do Accounting / Book-keeping using databases and spreadsheets…… the ratio system works just as well as percentages. I enjoy manipulating my mind in this way.

          81. A Victor says:

            I’m sorry Asp Emp, I wasn’t trying to imply that anyone wouldn’t understand that, I was just thinking “out loud” for my own thought process on the matter, to settle my mind with it, I should’ve realized how that would come across. I do apologize.

            I “enjoy manipulating my mind this way” also, and I like the way you said that. Ratios would work also.

            You had my dream job. Once, years ago when I didn’t have children yet, a man offered to teach me accounting. He said i would only have to work with him for one year in payment. We would do the teaching at his house. His wife worked so wouldn’t be there usually. It was a kind offer but the idea of being alone with him at his house frightened me so I turned him down. I have often wondered how different my life would’ve been had I done it. He was much older, I was 22. I will never know. Could’ve gone either way. So I only “play” at accounting.

          82. Asp Emp says:

            AV, no worries, I was not offended. I was never taught or given training how to do book-keeping or accounting – I learned it and developed, honed my skills in it. I was forced to learn it cos the branch clerk walked out (was going to be investigated, store manager quit, butcher also quit before investigation) – so I was the remaining ‘senior’ of the store, so I took it upon myself to manage the store despite NO training, no knowledge of retail management – I only knew stock & wastage control at the time. I’d been doing a cash office job for couple years before being made redundant cos the company adopted my system and got rid of all the Admin Managers cos my system was thief proof against staff & managers alike. I was 23 years old.

          83. A Victor says:

            Wow, they kept your excellent system and got rid of you!! Their loss!! Who knows how else you could’ve improved things for them, seems like not a good business move. I hope you’ve been able to use your skills elsewhere in a way that is meaningful for you. I have only begun again a couple of years ago, but I am loving it!

          84. Asp Emp says:

            AV, there were other factors ie discrimination – I settled out of court. I certainly applied my talents elsewhere. Typing with one hand and holding a ‘Twister’ ice lolly in the other hand at present….. muti-skilling as best as I can 😉 haven’t had a treat as such in so very long….. yeah, I’d go back into Admin / Quality Assurance but it’s a small town….

          85. Leigh says:

            Hi Everyone, I’m a little late to the party, but I thought I would jump in. I don’t feel like I have a creature or an inner child. I can see how the creature manifests in my mother, husband and even workplace narc. I have anxiety but not like they do. With my husband, he thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread. So when something goes wrong, he feels like God has let him down and how dare God do this to him. Does God not know who he is dealing with. I’m not making this up either. Anyway, my point is that once something bad happens, it makes him feel less than and he can’t handle that. Its the creature telling him he’s not good enough. I don’t feel that.

            As for an inner child, I don’t think I truly know how it feels to be a child. I was forced to become an adult very early on. I can remember being 7 or 8 years old and having to figure out how I was going to feed myself and my younger brother. I walked to McDonald’s and cried to the girl behind the counter that my brother and I were hungry and could she spare a hamburger. So my point there is that I have no clue what an inner child feels like. Can you define it for me? What does it feel like to you?

          86. leelasfuelstinks says:

            It feels like being still a child. You like and do childish things, you act very childish, it´s like being 5 year old again. And it´s craving for love and acceptance. It´s like “I´m 5 year old and I want to be loved and accepted the way I am”. It´s like wanting to re-write history and solving old conflicts with your daddy or mommy or both. It´s like wanting to turn time back and making it right this time.

          87. Leigh says:

            Oh, that’s interesting. There’s a couple of things I see here. I love to play with toys. I love to play in the dirt and sand. I throw temper tantrums when I feel like I’m not being heard or taken seriously. There have been a few times where I wish I had a real mom to lean on. I often make friends with older women. Son of a bitch!

            I want everyone to know, that even though my childhood sucked having with both my parents being narcissists. I’m still grateful to it. It made me a fiercely independent and strong women who can take care of herself.

          88. leelasfuelstinks says:

            There it is, Leigh! 👆 There it is: your inner child!

          89. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I don’t “feel” it as an inner child. I know that there are parts of me, big ones, that weren’t developed in my childhood, when most people with healthy parents would have learned these things. But I don’t view it as such, I just view it as now, as an adult, I need to learn what I need to in order to fill in those gaps and make myself as functional as I can.

            I do think there is an ongoing deficit from what I could’ve been, same for my narcissistic parents, but it isn’t impossible for me to see the gaps and make the changes, where it is for them. It is just a whole lot of work. And not realizing where all the work exactly is, it is also like a guessing game, a horrible one, sometimes.

            Being here, I have experienced some things brought out in front of me that I had no idea were even there. Or if I did, I didn’t know how to deal with them prior. One recent example was addressing my reaction to my “failures”. I had no idea how powerful that was and as such has really held me back, from fear. But, I can learn, and improve with practice, how to drill down into the logic and not let my failures or errors keep me down. So I have some hope, it is stuff that wasn’t learned in childhood, but I don’t have to go back and “reparent”, I just have to decide to learn it now, and then put it into practice. This does require that I overcome fear, that is probably the most difficult part. But I want to be better, so I do it.

          90. Leigh says:

            AV, you say “Being here, I have experienced some things brought out in front of me that I had no idea were even there.” That’s part of the reason I love this blog. It brings me awareness. I didn’t see it as an inner child either but the way Leela describes the inner child and they way you describe the deficit, it makes it much clearer to me.

            I agree, I want to be better too so I have to put in the work too.

          91. A Victor says:

            I didn’t get any notifications this morning. I was so sad. Glad I found the notices on WP. Anyway, yes, the blog brings awareness and or resolution. And it helps to be “putting the work in” along side of others who are also. Or who’ve gone before and who can so often relate and give some advice or encouragement. And of course, HG, the reason for it all!

          92. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV, did you gain your insight on fear and failure from HGs “Fear and the Empathic Victim” (hope I got that right)? I haven’t accessed that material yet.

          93. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, no, it was actually from an actual failure that I had which involved another person, and my reaction to it, which hit me very hard. It was an excellent learning experience but it was a tough week, haha.

            I do have that logic bulletin and have been considering learning to it again. Sometimes I find more stands out three second or third time around, after I’ve learned some other things.

          94. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks for your response, AV, and I’m sorry to hear about that experience, but glad you came out the other end OK. The learning here never ends, I find, in the sense I could go back over the same thing multiple times and each time I will get something different out of it. I will have peeled back another layer and my mind is open to learning the next thing or something new. Or, I have a better ability to retain it this time as there is so much to take in. Generally, I don’t believe I am a fearful person, but your comment interested me so I appreciate the reply <3

          95. A Victor says:

            LET, you’re welcome. I don’t know that I’m out the other end quite yet but with more practice I will be. Learning to get to the logic in a situation is proving quite the challenge. Bubbles reply on a comment I made about a man from church is helpful, seeing her thought process and how I can apply it. I’m going to start actively looking for places to practice this. Yes, this learning is very onion like, layer upon layer, and a lot tears also! At least in my case. I didn’t think I was fearful, you probably aren’t, but I have learned here that I have lived in it, in some areas of my life and without knowing it, for far too long. Time for me to grow up.

          96. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, the last part of your comment really struck a chord with me – “I didn’t think I was fearful … but have learned here that I have lived in it, in some areas of my life and without knowing it, for far too long.”

            Recently I had an incredibly meaningful conversation with a friend who said three words to me that had not been spoken to me in my entire life – “You are safe”. No one had ever told me I was safe before. I had never felt safe. But until she said those three words to me, I didn’t know it. It took her to say those words for me to realize – I have not felt safe, nor had a significant other that promoted that sense of safety in me. The hypervigilance associated with that has just increased with every relationship and is something I need to really focus on and understand right now.

            That could be part of my ‘growing up’ – to really embrace the notion that safety exists. And it doesn’t just exist for other people. As long as my fists are up, and I come out fighting, I’m not going to be able to embrace that sense of safety.

            Seeing others thought processes is very helpful, AV, which is why I always appreciate hearing yours and much of what you say resonates with me. As you untangle your own thoughts, I feel my own being untangled, too. And the logic others input makes a huge difference, too.

          97. A Victor says:

            LET, yes, the sense of being safe alludes many of us I think, until we realize it and make choices to allow it into our lives. Even to pursue it. That realization came to me a while ago, pre-narcsite. I don’t recall exactly when, but it did help me to think through times and places where I feel safe, and how to make more of them happen. Being here has assisted with that a lot and learning my fears and how to manage them is helping also. It’s getting me down to why I don’t feel safe and what I can do to change that. The timing of it probably ties in somewhat with the timing of letting my facade fall, for the most part, probably within the last 3-5 years or so. There was no way that was going to happen prior to that, the world was just too dangerous and scary, and everyone is out to get us. I lived that way into my 50’s, how sad.

            I am glad if my thought untangling helps you with yours, that is a happy by-product of my prolific commenting. The main is quite selfish, it helps me understand, unload, and untangle! Also, the feedback is so helpful and I enjoy the interaction a lot. My son, who knows I comment a lot, said last night it’s because I have no life. Haha, if he could only understand that this is helping so much to improve the life I do have! Anyway, I appreciate everyone’s patience with it and see in the future a point where it is no longer necessary. Not sure how soon, and I’m not in a hurry, unless HG suddenly tells me to “suck it up buttercup”, he’s done moderating! What a horrible thought!! Thank you for sharing, I learn a lot from you and everyone as well!

          98. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha to your son, AV 😛 He sounds like my kids xox

          99. A Victor says:

            And clearly I should not be using my phone, please forgive my typos.

          100. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, AV, I’m hopeless either way at times 😛 And I really didn’t notice x

          101. njfilly says:

            Interesting conversation going on here. I haven’t been able to read every single comment. I understand people are just discussing and theorizing, but I want to add my input. I disagree with the following statement: “I would guess that the emotional needs of the Super Empath had been partially met when they were infants and toddlers, the emotional needs of the little to-be-narc have been not met”. I know this to be untrue based upon my own experience, or it is untrue at least in my case.

            My emotional needs were not met by anybody as a child. I got no support, no guidance, nurturing, caring, love etc. from anybody as a child, and neither did my brother, as far as I am aware. Even our grandparents were cold. Both my parents are narcissists, and my brother is also a narcissist. The only thing that saved me from becoming a narcissist must be my genetics.

            My mother is a mid-range victim narcissist (I believe. Unconfirmed by HG Tudor), and my father is a Middle Lesser Somatic (confirmed by HG Tudor). While my mother was avoiding us, and responsibility, my father was outwardly abusing us. I was my father’s main target. I never witnessed my father abuse my mother, although I assume it happened. (I was often in my room or away from home to avoid the abuse). I only witnessed my mother gaining control of the household with illness and silent treatments, which then would prompt my father to seek comfort from me. It was a very dysfunctional and twisted dynamic.

            I don’t know why I was my father’s main target. Maybe he instinctively knew about the dynamic between narcissists and empaths, I can’t really say. Occasionally my brother would join with my father in abusing me. I always forgave my brother for this because I realized he was also being abused. I reasoned, when I was a child, that he was seeking acceptance from my father or just needed an outlet for his own pain, so he used me, as did my father. When my brother became a teenager he physically fought my father which ended his abuse, but mine continued. Years later, approx. 6 years ago, my brother validated me and confirmed what I believed to be true; that I was my father’s main target. I don’t believe he was lying due to the nature of the discussion, which was why I maintained a relationship with my parents and purchased a farm with them. He couldn’t understand why I would do this. I don’t have an answer for this myself other than I wanted a farm for my horses and couldn’t afford it on my own.

            I received more abuse than my brother, and he became a narcissist (not confirmed by HG Tudor, but obvious to me based upon what I have recently learned) and I am a Carrier Super Empath (confirmed by HG Tudor).

          102. A Victor says:

            I had the same, no emotional needs met ever, by any adult in my life, only abuse. Thank you for sharing Njfilly.

          103. njfilly says:

            Sad for all of us. Some people shouldn’t have children.

          104. A Victor says:

            Yes. I am glad to have been born even though i do not think my parents should have had children. My brother opted not to and my sister only has one. So the four I have sort of make up for the fact that my parents shouldn’t have had any, in my mind. Mine did have a narc dad but they are all doing pretty well regardless, and do bring a lot of people a lot of happiness. So my narcs did not “win”. When I was young, pre-kids, I had a lot of suicidal thoughts, and an attempt when I was drinking once. Looking back, and having my kids now, I’m so glad that didn’t happen. But that was how I came out of that upbringing. It was horrible. I am thankful to be a victor now, even on the tough days!

          105. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I´m Super Carrier too! My emotional needs as a child were not met either. I was abused by Patri Narc (Upper Mid Range Somatic, confirmed by H.G.) My mother is very probably a Co-D, she was totally brain-washed by Patri Narc and never stood up for me while I got abused. She even defended him. She was his Lieutenant, she was convinced that Patri Narc is right and only wants the best for me. But I never experienced any manipulations from mom. There´s something off with her but didn´t experience narcissistic abuse from her. She´s just Patric Narcs slave.

            My grandparents were “nice” but not empathic, however. Neither was mom. I always felt suppressed by my parents. They never accepted me the way I am. They always wanted me to be like THEY wanted it, they never let me be the way I am, they even tried to convince me that how I am is wrong, that I´m going to be “loser” in life if I don´t listen to them! They tried to form me the way they wanted me to be. Not a single ass cared about my real personality.

            As child and adolescent, I learned, however, to stand up for myself! I remember yelling at my parents “JUST FUCKING ACCEPT ME THE WAY I AM, WILL YA?”

          106. A Victor says:

            I didn’t want to yell that at my parents, I just wanted to be away from them so I could live my life the way I knew I wanted to, much gentler than they did.

          107. leelasfuelstinks says:

            For me it was both. I yelled at them, called them all the names under the sun, told them to fuck off and wanted to be away from them. I lied at them, I tricked them, I purposely stayed away all night, when they berated me for going out, I told them to kiss my ass.

          108. A Victor says:

            I would’ve been fighting both my parents had I done what you did. It would’ve been a short lived battle also, meaning my life would’ve been shortened!! 😒😂

          109. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I fought both! When I was not lashing out at them, I passive-aggressively did what they do not like, I lied to them, I cheated them, I tricked them and lots and lots of lame excuses why I can´t do what they expect me to 🤣

          110. A Victor says:

            Ah, I “went underground”, so to speak. Lived my life but didn’t talk to them. They didn’t ask questions for the most part so I didn’t have to lie, though I would if I had to. I became more passive aggressive while married to my 2nd husband. That’s also being dealt with currently and ties in to fear, same as my failure issue does. It is all a learning curve, that it’s for sure.

          111. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Sometimes I take the passive aggressive approach as well. Whenever I don´t get far by directly fighting or cannot defend myself directly, I turn passive aggressive.

          112. A Victor says:

            I am working to become aware of and take control of my passive aggressive reactions as part of this process. I want even aware I did it until recently.

          113. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Oh, do I have to tell that my main narcissistic trait is defiance? 😇

          114. A Victor says:

            Haha, no, that was clear!! 🤣

          115. A Victor says:

            Maybe that is the difference between a Standard and a Super?

          116. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, I think so, too!

          117. A Victor says:

            I also realized after sending that comment that our level of Geyser probably plays a big part in how we respond to others. I don’t have much and it’s kept in check by other elements. I also knew that, in my case, the more fighting I did, the worse I would make my own situation. So i waited patiently, just to leave.

          118. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I have only Geyser minority. It doesn´t come out very often, and mostly in a positive manner.

          119. A Victor says:

            Oh that’s right. Haha, well back to the drawing board!

          120. Leigh says:

            I don’t think its between Standard and Super. I yelled and cursed at my parents ALL THE TIME! Maybe its the Geyser in me???

          121. A Victor says:

            Yes, I think Geyser does cause a lot of visible reaction and emotion, correlating to the amount in a person but offset by our other elements and our life stressors.

          122. njfilly says:

            Do they accept you yet? I hope, like me, you no longer care.

          123. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Of course they don´t. Do I care? Not an iota! 😉

          124. Leigh says:

            Thank you for sharing your story Njfilly. I was the golden child but still abused. My brothers suffered much more abuse than I. I just wanted to say I’m sorry you suffered as a child.

          125. Kat w. says:

            Yes it is. If you have ever watched “Ernest Scared Stupid” how does he kill the troll at the end of the movie? You cannot fight evil and hate with more hate. You HAVE to fight hate with love. Love yourself, run away. Love others, help save them. Jesus said “no greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his friends ” And “the one who overcomes will get the crown”… my father was a narcissist, this whole page could have been written by him or the devil himself. He once told me he thought God was foolish for sending His son, my father thought he could have done it better himself. You see he could just not fathom the though that there was anyone or anything put there bigger or better than him. Thats exactly what lucifer thought too. You have to fight through it in order to prevail. You have to want to, or you arent going to make it. No excuses just do it. Save yourself, HG. You’ve sacrified your soul and somewhere there is a tiny light otherwise you wouldnt be doing this, knowing how much you’re helping people. YOURE HELPING WHICH IS OF GOD. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. I cone from a long line of narcissists. I feel those tendencies every day, don’t tell me i don’t. I know what its like for the homosexual to say I was born this way. Yes, but you DONT HAVE TO STAY THAT WAY. Give your life for Jesus and in the end, you will reap your reward. IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU, ITS ABOUT HIM. He gave His life for us, and we should sacrifice ours for Him amd furthering His kingdom and Glory. Who else can we count on?? The devil? Nah, the devil is a Liar!!

          126. A Victor says:

            Hi Kat w., I don’t believe narcissists can change, anymore, I fought through this hard and long, many tears have fallen over it. But, I do believe they can do good, HG even says so. So it is a case of take the good and leave the bad. Their “end” story is theirs, as ours is ours. That’s where I have to leave it even as it makes me incredibly sad.

          127. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Of course not! That´s bullshit! Magical Thinking! Faith is good, but there are very clear scientifically proven facts. Denying them is just Magical Thinking! Bullshit!

          128. A Victor says:

            I agree.

          129. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I respect your faith, Kat. But for the homosexuals, there´s already scientific proof that it´s genetic. Let´s not discriminate people here. SCIENCE already has proved the genetics of sexual orientations. SCIENCE shows that H.G. cannot get his emotions back, they never developed. The center of the psychopath-brain is inactive and stays inactive. Faith is wonderful, I believe in God too, but let´s not forget science. There are clear scientific proven facts which cannot be denied, those who do practice Magical Thinking.

          130. Witch says:

            @leela
            I have a “child personality”
            but I thought that was just because I’m weird from having been raised by narcissists and I’ve considered possibly being on the autistic spectrum.

          131. A Victor says:

            @Witch, haha, I am a very silly person, love to laugh, can relate better to kids that adults very often. I have just thought that was my “inner child” coming out!!

          132. leelasfuelstinks says:

            No no no no! Many ACONs have it. It´s because one part of us could not develop due to lack of love and care.

          133. Violetta says:

            njfilly:

            If you interacted with horses as a child, that may have partly protected you. As an adult, I take puppies as needed.

          134. njfilly says:

            Violetta:

            I agree that puppies are good for the psyche and the soul! I want a puppy. I have no dog at the moment.

            I didn’t have contact with horses until my early 20’s, but I volunteered for an animal rescue group when I was 12, and I fostered many animals at my home. Multiple animals at the same time. Cats, dogs, and litters of kittens all at once! It was great!! I took care of the animals but I have to give my parents credit for allowing it.

            I even managed the Animal Rescue Force (ARF) booth at the local flea market. I was 12 and I ran the booth on my own. I even adopted out the animals requiring the signing of a written contract, which I don’t even think would be allowed today. I was always so responsible. Like I was born an adult, I was never a child. I couldn’t imagine a 12 year old today being that responsible. There are some twenty year olds who couldn’t handle it either.

            AV and LFS:

            I am also basically a 50/50 split between narcissist and empath traits. I sometimes feel like I have a foot in each camp, and I can personally relate to many of the narcissist feelings and behaviors written about. I have experienced them, have felt them, and acted on them. I know many empaths often think they are the narcissist and in my case it was because I have behaved as a narcissist myself, without having been provoked by one, as if I was the narcissist in the relationship. There are a few things written about here that Mr. HG Tudor has done and I have done something so similar, it’s eerie like a parallel life.

            Sorry I wrote to everyone in the same comment. This thread is a bit long and getting difficult to respond to since wordpress no longer notifies me of comments! – rant over.

          135. A Victor says:

            No problem Njfilly! I’m just glad to read your comments, I had been missing you and hoping all was well with you! WP dropped me today also, frustrating. And, I dislike these long threads, difficult to find things.

            Anyway, thank you for sharing your experience as a Super Carrier, it sounds like you and Leela have some similarities along with you and HG. That it’s interesting. It makes me wonder if this is why normals often irritate me, having even higher levels of narcissistic traits, lower empathic ones. I’m going to have to find out about this floodlight/candle flame analogy, that suck in my head making it so clear why empaths are empaths and now maybe it’s clear as mud. Haha! Thanks for sharing!

          136. njfilly says:

            Violetta:

            Does interaction with animals help children, as far as providing love, comfort, etc?

            Although I believe that it does, do you think it helps enough to cause narcissism from forming if it were going to form, and if they have the genetic predisposition for it?

          137. HG Tudor says:

            It never helped me.

          138. njfilly says:

            What type of pets did you have?
            What were their names?
            Why did your family have pets? (Your mother doesn’t seem like she would allow it).
            Could animals help someone from developing NPD despite that it didn’t help you?

          139. HG Tudor says:

            I didn’t have any pets of my own, NJFilly.
            Family members had pets because they wanted them and my father facilitated that.
            Theoretically, I could see a case to argue that the involvement of a pet might act as an intervening factor with regard to the development of NPD as it may allow the child to feel a sense of control over an aspect of their life and thus arrest the development of NPD. It would very much depend on the degree of autonomy afforded and the extent of the involvement. Certain aspects of animal care would be beyond small children and of course should there be a paternal narcissist (as there often is) the issue of having and keeping a pet could prove problematic.

          140. njfilly says:

            Interesting.

            “It may allow the child to feel a sense of control over an aspect of their life” – The bonding with the pet, and the companionship and love provided by the pet would have no affect, only the control aspect?

            I suppose the child would have to want to interact with the pet, and take an interest in it. If you were given a pet I assume you wouldn’t have had any interest in it.

          141. HG Tudor says:

            The only interest I would have in it is what purpose it would provide to me with regard to the Prime Aims.

          142. Violetta says:

            NJfilly:

            I think interactions with animals can keep an Empath or a Normal from becoming highly Narcissistic in response to deprivation from humans.

            If there’s a genetic predisposition to being full Narc, it will not. So many psychopaths start by abusing animals rather than seeking comfort from them. As for HG, he seems largely indifferent to animals, unless he can use them to manipulate a girlfriend.

          143. Witch says:


            No no no no! Many ACONs have it. It´s because one part of us could not develop due to lack of love and care.”

            Yes I have thought this.
            With me though sometimes I think it’s a bit different than that because I’ve upset people (well other women) with my lack of social skills.
            I’m the type of the person who gets straight to the point and I’ve found a lot of women don’t like that.. they want you to take an interest in them and bond with them first before you ask them for anything.
            I’m the type of person to just walk up to you and say “hey do you have the wifi password?”
            But I’ve found that women in particular expect you to say
            “Good morning how are you? How are the kids? How’s your husband? How’s the dog? How’s your postman? How’s life? Hahaha omg that’s crazy! What did I come in here for again? Oh yeah, do you happen to have the wifi password please?”

            I don’t understand it, but I’ve had to change how I would naturally behave in order to fit into the complex ways in which women socialise.

            There’s also other things that make me feel like it’s more than just being an ACON.
            I have obsessive habits/stims and regressive behaviours that probably also stem from anxiety but women on the spectrum report having anxiety and depression more than their male counterparts.
            at the same time, I can’t be 100% sure because I am an ACON.

          144. A Victor says:

            Oh dear, the dreaded small talk. Witch, I have the same problem. I have wondered about being on the spectrum also. Or PTSD.

          145. Witch says:

            Actually I lied
            Because I’ve also upset a gay man once who asked me for my National insurance number … so I sent him my national insurance number but because I didn’t say:
            “Dear Mr Petty
            I hope you’re well and are having an excellent and fruitful week?
            Please find my NIN below:
            Kind Regards
            Witch”

            He was upset and told someone he didn’t trust me from that day forward lmao

          146. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, thank you for sharing that!! Wow, sensitive! The ones that matter (us) trust you!

          147. Witch says:

            @A Victor
            I don’t take things like this personally. I find it interesting that people even notice but apparently they do.
            I feel like I was always quite odd in a way that may have appeared like I was intellectually impaired. But as an adult it appears as if I’m just rude and I’ll mannered.
            I took longer to complete tasks. I was always late for school. I daydreamed constantly at school. I over thought questions at school to the point I couldn’t answer them.
            I remember we had to list 5 things that are relaxing and I couldn’t list 5 things, probably because knowing me I was thinking “what is the real meaning of relaxing?”
            “But would everyone find that relaxing?” “If everyone doesn’t find it relaxing, then is that the right answer?”
            The teacher made me stay behind until I finished and I was the only person left behind lol
            I had some mean old school teachers who expected everyone to just be the same which didn’t help.
            I never really made friends myself, people found me and adopted me into their friendship group.
            When I meet new people I feel very awkward and I have to pretend like I’m enjoying this.
            Even now I’m sitting on the floor in my kitchen – having imaginative conversations in my head lol. this is how I have to cope on a Sunday in preparation for having to speak to people all day on a Monday.

          148. A Victor says:

            @Witch, I don’t take these things personally either. I prefer text over calls any day, efficient, productive, unemotional.

            I remember feeling like an outsider at school, even as people accepted me. I did not have their carefree lives and desire for girlish banter. So I sat with them at lunch but always on the end and in my own thoughts. They would pull me in for a thought now and then. It wasn’t uncomfortable, I was just there.

            On the playground my whole 1st grade year I was chased by “Charlie” and his friends who would hold me down so he could kiss me. I hated that but he wouldn’t stop and the teachers either didn’t notice or didn’t care, they didn’t do anything to help me. Already a little empath, I wanted to be friends with him, he was nice otherwise and i never believed he understood just how violated the playground situation made me feel. My mother wouldn’t step in either, so I learned not to ask her for help. In second grade he moved on to my friend Mary, it was a relief!

            The daydreaming was a constant. I was on top of things academically but socially impaired. And that’s what had carried over to my adulthood. Why can’t people just accept that individuals are different, without judgment? Looking back i have often been a loner and often been judged for it.

            I don’t believe I would’ve understood the meaning of relax either. That had to be a tremendous amount of pressure for you.
            I didn’t relax as a child. Too many eggshells. Too much volitility. It was a hostile environment. I spent a lot of time alone.

            I wish mom me could clean the sidewalk with your mean teachers. I did that once with a mean teacher my oldest had, boy did she change her ways, you don’t mess with Mama Bear. Children deserve to be treated well, same as adults, this is one thing that riles me up. Savior coming out, and i recognize it! Progress!

            I totally get the awkward with new people! And the pretending to enjoy it! I would way rather skip small talk and either sit there in silence or talk about something meaningful than discuss the weather. But one time about 3 years ago I was alone with my oldest daughter’s good friend, whom I’d met briefly once before. She asked me how my marriage had ended!! Wow, that was so out of line, I said I preferred not to discuss that. I like deep but not necessarily personal, unless i have a comfort level with the person.

            I don’t do anything on the weekends quite often. Saturday is recovery from talking to people all week, Sunday is preparation for it again. Going to church, which i like to do, makes it harder. Seeing my kids and grandkids does also. I’m still trying to figure that out because I miss them. But the alone time is so important, I don’t function as well at my job without it. Is it normal? For me it is. I also think it will ease up a bit once my learning here has progressed more, when my interaction here lessens and the studying can slow. I literally live, eat and breathe this right now, still. It is an obsession but a healthy one.

            Thank you for sharing, it is interesting to see commonalities with us, as empaths.

          149. Violetta says:

            Hg won’t tell you you’re a narc, though. He’ll just say you’re not an Empath. I’d want to know if I was highly Narcissistic, which I think I am.

          150. A Victor says:

            I know, but he said I’m an empath, it was a relief! But it was also a surprise!

          151. Witch says:

            @a victor
            Thanks for sharing
            I think these days where I’m from teachers appear to be a bit more knowledgeable and vigilant about signs of neglect and abuse
            It would be interesting to know how many kids with neurodivergent behaviours had narcissist(s) for parents(s)

          152. A Victor says:

            @Witch, after reading my response to your comment, it occurred that it was extraordinarily long, I apologize! It was just a bunch of disconnected thoughts that were pretty meaningless overall, I just didn’t see it until now. So sorry. Anyway, yes, I believe teachers have improved in general. And yes, it would be very interesting to know the numbers regarding “kids with neurodivergent behaviours had narcissist(s) for parents(s)”. That would possibly explain a lot.

          153. Witch says:

            I can’t imagine pets being a significant deterrent for narcissism.
            Kids need consistency and balance of praise, discipline, freedom/restrictions from a primary caregiver.
            A pet is nowhere near a substitute for healthy parenting, although it may serve as an additional aid within an already healthy household for a child with a predisposition.

          154. njfilly says:

            A Victor! Ha ha!

            Your “Sparkling Standards” comment is hysterical! I love it!

          155. A Victor says:

            I like sparkles. Hey, so does MB, if she’s a Standard, maybe we’re on to something!! 🙂

        2. BC30 says:

          Leela, LET, and AV

          Ok, as to what LET said and Leela’s propositions. It makes absolute sense that there are few empaths who are 100% Co-D and that most of us are Standard because it is humane nature to have narcissistic traits, for survival. I have everything except Co-D and I am very narcissistic. So where does that come from? Could I be a mix of empath parents?

          AV, I went and listened to my EDC again to remind myself what type of bait I am. 😂

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha BC30, I have listened to mine a few times recently, same reason!

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            If you have no CoD and strong narcissistic traits, BC30, I’d say that’s a reflection of being brought up by empathic parents. I do think it’s possible CoD will only develop with a narcissistic parent/s, and of course not always. We have ACONs here with no CoD either. But my sense is you would not become CoD without also having a narc parent/s. It forms just over half of my School, which aligns with my upbringing by at least one narcissistic parent, if not two. I know you got an ED done on your Mother, but can’t remember if you mentioned the outcome. It’s highly likely you got a mix of empathic traits from both your parents, with your own character deciding on which ones for you 🙂

            And I know what kind of bait I am now … no longer narcissist bait <3 xox

          3. BC30 says:

            By a CLEAR majority mom is a Super Savior. I’m excited to see my dad’s results and if my predictions are correct. I like your hypothesis. I was only partially correct guessing about my mom. Haha I guess you’re right, we’re not bait anymore. 😂💕

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Happy Anniversary!!!

            My travelling companion on this journey of ours. Thank you for your support throughout. (Including over recent days😉)

            I’ll raise a glass to you tonight at 11pm GMT. Late for me, early for you! A toast to how far we have come and the shortening distance left for us to travel.

            TS 😘xx

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS,

            Took me a while to find your comment on this thread 😛

            Happy Anniversary!!! xox

            (Check KHG … left you a msg there, too 😉 )

            Indeed we have been travelling companions and I am also very appreciative of your presence here and support throughout <3 We've seen some interesting times in a year, and can only imagine in some ways what has gone before. Most important thing being we are here now.

            Definitely time for a drink and I have raised a glass for us both, and all empaths here who have undertaken the journey with us. We have come very far and it's wonderful to be where we are … loving the thought of shortening the distance x

            Cheers, my dear!

            LET xox

        3. Melmel says:

          Leela, this thread is so interesting. Something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently also. I agree that the Empath has a “not-Creature” as well, and I agree that it is like a crying Inner Child. Or maybe not crying, but having a serious major tantrum meltdown. This is why the Inner Child hurts us. It is the source of our behaving on our Emotional Thinking. Like when a child (or teenager) is so worked up that they cannot self-regulate well enough to make good choices. Constant internal Fight or Flight.

          I am definitely an Empath, strong Co-D, and I don’t feel very integrated. Learning that the way to calm that Inner Child (and reduce my Emotional Thinking) is to give it what it needed when it got locked in development. Maybe it was validation, comfort, security, protection, compassion, delight. Once the Inner Child is calm, I can use Logic and change my instinctive responses. Different for all us ACONs I suppose.

          Maybe we could call our not-Creature the Little Asshole? Not very self-compassionate I guess. Maybe the Tyrranical Toddler?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            It is not an inner child, nor is it the source of emotional thinking. ET comes from the addiction, ET caused poor decision making used Flawed Logic. It also causes you to act on the way you are feeling (The Battery of Feeling) so you commit self-defeating acts. This is all explained in The Addiction : Triple Package.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Senseeeeiii? 😘❤ Would you please please please enlighten us about the creation and psyche of the Empaths and Super Empath in detail, some time? ❤🥰😘🌼🌷🌺🌸💐🌹

          3. A Victor says:

            Okay, so the “void” I feel is from the addiction? Hm. Off to listen the The Addiction : Triple Package again…

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            How about Little Brat? Honestly, I still have NO idea how the heck I can calm the Little Brat in me.

          5. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! But your “Little Brat” is beloved!! Just like the rest of you, it’s all part of you, a person who is loved!

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Thank you very much, AV. You can see it, commenting “Mr. Dick”, in the other thread (oh crap, where was it? You know, where we discuss Jessica Tampon)

          7. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I think i did see that! Only funny!

        4. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Leela,
          Hmmmm, interesting, I get where you’re coming from
          I do spontaneous fun things
          I couldn’t be me as a child …. everything was bottled up !
          It’s nothing bad, embarrassing or juvenile, “Joie de vivre” one might say or high spirited
          It’s natural for me
          This whole discussion is most fascinating, thankyou
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        5. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Hahahaha Leela, I can’t reply below but so much of what you’re saying resonates. I was Ms defiant! Anything my mother wanted me to do, I did the opposite. Completely guided by my ET.
          My UMR sister did what she wanted to but was far better at hiding it. Always the golden child, never set a foot wrong in my mother’s eyes.
          That defiance is still there and can be detrimental at times but I’ve learned to try and use my LT thanks to HG. Well…most of the time haha

      2. BC30 says:

        I think Lessers and Mid-Range take what they can get most of the time. I also think they do not realize the damage a particular type of person/character can cause. The blindness HG talks about.

        1. A Victor says:

          Ah yes, they’re “unaware”. Not only of themselves but also regarding victims possibly. Interesting.

    2. BC30 says:

      🤣🤣🤣 I’m laughing WITH you! We gotta laugh at ourselves. My oh my the nonsense we believed.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        I laugh about myself too. 😂😂 After all the knowledge we gained it´s actually funny what we believed, i.e. our ET made us believe 😂 Now we´re wiser. 😉

        1. BC30 says:

          So, turns out, my mom is Super Savior, like, by a clear majority on both. She’s not changed/changing the world in a “grand” way like I am. She does lots of little things for many people. Before we did her EDC, I shared that she was always taking in and feeding, clothing, and loving stray people. Physical affection is huge in our family. There were ALL KINDS of people coming and going. There were always neighborhood children around, elderly neighbors, singletons, everyone. We’ve never had a sit down holiday dinner. There’s always SO MANY people that it has to be a buffet.

          She’s where get my Magnet. Now that she’s getting on in years, she travels around town on bus visiting people in their homes and at the market and city hall and theatre and bakery and on and on…😄

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            That´s wonderful, BC30. 🥰 The world needs more people like your mommy. 🥰

    3. Violetta says:

      Listen to Neil Diamond’s “Girl, You’ll be a Woman Soon.” Lyrics:

      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      I love you so much, can’t count all the ways
      I’ve died for you girl and all they can say is
      “He’s not your kind”
      They never get tired of putting me down
      And I’ll never know when I come around
      What I’m gonna find
      Don’t let them make up your mind
      Don’t you know

      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Please, come take my hand
      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Soon, you’ll need a man

      I’ve been misunderstood for all of my life
      But what they’re saying girl it cuts like a knife
      “The boy’s no good”
      Well I’ve finally found what I’m a looking for
      But if they get their chance they’ll end it for sure
      Surely would
      Baby have done all I could
      Now it’s up to you

      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Please, come take my hand
      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Soon, you’ll need a man
      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Please, come take my hand
      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Soon but soon, you’ll need a man
      Girl, you’ll be a woman soon
      Please, come take my hand

      Then watch Twilight Zone episode “Spur of the Moment.” It’s been criticized for the fact that the woman in black isn’t mysterious at all; it’s pretty obvious who she is, but the real twist is that we think the girl is going to make one kind of bad decision that will ruin her life when she actually makes a different bad decision that ruins her life.

    4. Eternity says:

      Leela,
      I am still trying to understand why people use the word You Are My Soulmate, or Twin Flame.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Doesn´t that come from esotericism?

        1. Eternity says:

          It is very spiritual. I understand, but is it really true do people actually believe in it though?

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            There are plenty of people who believe in that, oh yes. I´m not familiar with esotericism but people who are into spiritual things believe in some energy-stuff, soul wanderings, soul mates, twin flames, aura, indigo children, and so on. I don´t have much knowledge about spirituality, so can´t go into detail. 🤷‍♀️

          2. Eternity says:

            Leigh ,
            Yes, I know several people that say I found my soulmate. I just roll my eyes .

          3. A Victor says:

            “Soulmate” always made me gag a bit.

          4. Eternity says:

            Same here more like vomit actually. I think finding your soulmate would be finding a non Narcissist that actually has Empathy. If they use that word they know it is a red flag coming from them.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Eternity
            I think the concepts of soul mate and twin flames are embraced due to addiction. They want to believe these fairytales exist because it offers an excuse to stay engaged and keep trying in the name of “love” where it is actually addiction.

          6. Eternity says:

            Hello NA,
            To be honest with I thought in similar terms.
            I do believe in love and believe there is someone out there for somebody. However,
            Fairytale,flowers,man on a horse Hallmark cards etc should be left for books and movies.
            Love is earned and respected not fake.
            The only flame in the Twin flames is the fuel given go the Narcissist.
            The Addiction will always remain

          7. Another Cat says:

            I think the meaning of Soulmate is someone who feels the same way about things, reacts the same way, as we do ourselves.

            Only, this description fits several people, not one. It’s rare to meet them though, through life.

            The narcissist /money uscammer fools us into thinking that there is only One Soulmate out there. I believe there could be many.

          8. Eternity says:

            Another Cat,
            I actually read somewhere that you can have several soulmates ( not sure I believe this ) and only one Twin Flame ( don’t believe that either )

  11. lonerose99 says:

    19 – All he needs is to be loved and I have been the only one that can do that for him. That was the overriding emotional thought which led to several of the others listed. If logic tried to sneak in, that one took it over.

    Many years later, more than I care to say, the reality came crashing through and logic took hold. Like continuous lightning in a thunderstorm, the stark illumination of the ‘relationship’ was seen. Every single nuance was clear as daylight. After a period of beating myself up for being so stubborn to not see the truth, I began to heal. It has been easier than I thought!

    1. Susan R Bozzi says:

      We just needed the right tools. 🌹

  12. leelasfuelstinks says:

    It´s an ACON-thing:

    “Because I´m not good enough” 🙁 😥
    Not pretty enough, not slim enough, not curvy enough, not tan enough, not pale enough, not young enough, not old enough, not smart enough, not dumb enough, not enough educated, not calm enough, not emotional enough, not fiery enough, wrong eye color, whatever: [you name it!]

    1. BC30 says:

      I’m not an ACON. But my grandma did a lot of the comparisons when I was small. I was never going to be good enough.

      1. A Victor says:

        BC30, you are so blessed to have had the buffer of your parents between you and your grandma. My kids had me between them and my parents also, so until we were living together, they didn’t realize fully what I had grown up with. I was glad for that, I felt like I had done my job protecting them. Now my son, the only one left here, will barely interact with my mom. He’s doing ANC without knowing about it.

        1. BC30 says:

          Smart of him to minimize contact with someone who causes him pain of any kind. I suspect that empaths create little empaths (ACOEs?). I was raised by two empaths* and think my grandfather was an empath.

          I don’t know if my father is an empath yet. He hasn’t done the EDC yet.

          1. A Victor says:

            Can you imagine if two empathic parents ended up with a narcissist child?! They wouldn’t know what to do!!

  13. A Victor says:

    @Asp Emp, this article completely explains the 7 years and then the 16 years that followed. I feel like a schmuck for having fallen for it, and for so long. Gotta let go of that now though and move forward, as challenging as that is, i have no other choice now.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      AV, quoting WiserNow in their response to you on the article ‘Down’ – “you were conditioned from birth to attach to this type of character” – is why you should not feel like a ‘schmuck’. That is your ET saying to you that it is your fault. Your LT should say that it is not your fault but you were ‘conditioned’ that way from birth……

      It’s all about changing the way you are ‘thinking’ by re-processing your thoughts from a new angle by applying your learning. This is the ‘choice’ you do have.

      1. A Victor says:

        Yes, taking personal responsibility for myself going forward. Thank you. I giggled when I saw schmuck in your comment, it’s a goofy word, haha.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          AV, you used the word in your initial comment, having said that, I suppose it would be the resulting sound that a mouth would make when it’s full of peanut butter and one is trying swallow it…… so, I think there’s a new definition for the word ‘schmuck’…. laughing…..

          1. A Victor says:

            AE, I know I used it first, but it made me laugh seeing it when someone else used it. I like your new definition! It is … logical? Hahaha!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            AV, no, it’s not logical to stuff your mouth full of peanut butter !!!! In fact, I have never tried it and no wonder !! 😉

          3. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I stand corrected!!!

          4. Another Cat says:

            Asp Emp

            Regarding the percentages I was a little surprised by HG’s video. Previously I had read here that empaths are only 1 in 4, 25% not 2 in 6. (But maybe he said 1,5 in 6, I don’t remember)

            But I like HG’s scientific approach, maybe new observations and thoroughness makes him update numbers.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            AC, I think the more people that come forward to this blog and opt for EDC / TDC / NDC – the more statistics (data) can determine the numbers of empaths, narcissists, and the ones in between. Yet there are others that are ‘unknown’ because they remain in the ‘grey’ area, ie not found their way to KTN and so cannot be counted in. The fact HG does give people an indication as to how many empaths there are compared to narcissists, considering that empaths do not appear on the DSM lists yet narcissism does.

          6. Melmel says:

            Asp Emp:

            “The fact HG does give people an indication as to how many empaths there are compared to narcissists, considering that empaths do not appear on the DSM lists yet narcissism does.”

            When I started on this self-discovery path several months ago, I mentioned this to my psychiatrist and his eyes widened as he made some notes.

            I find it extremely interesting how Empathy (not Empaths per se) or lack thereof is a central tenet to Cluster B personality disorders, but it is not defined or acknowledged in diagnostic literature. So where does this leave all us “crazy, unhinged” Empaths? We get misdiagnosed as Borderline, or as “Anxiety Disorder NOS”, when really the closest “approved” diagnosis would be PTSD (but this is discounted because of a lack of a Class A trauma event – or even if there is some such event in our history it is considered unrelated to our current symptomology). Being in the medical field, I am a label-lover. It helps me make sense of the internal pathology so that I can make clinical decisions in selecting the best treatment options. Without a proper diagnosis, I feel (as a patient) like my options for effective treatment are very limited. Borderline – DBT and meds – OK this will work to an extent, but if it’s PTSD then it’s missing some important trauma-specific therapy (for example Shadow Integration/ reparenting/Somatic Experiencing therapy) AND access to these treatment modalities is limited without a formal diagnosis of PTSD. So I’ve gone searching for them on my own, which has brought me to HG and KTN, and I will be forever grateful.

            Also, I think as Empaths there is a deep seated yearning to Understand. We feel as though we are part of something bigger than ourselves, but we can’t access the strength and security of this Collective Being on our own. We are trapped in our addiction of Emotional Thinking. It keeps us disconnected from the Light. So the world seems a frightening place where we are alone and scared, cut off from the Higher Power that has the strength and wisdom to hold up that terrified, broken, isolated, trapped Empath Wraith, and carry us into the Light.

            Empaths need each other to help pierce that isolation. It would help if the scientific community stopped with the unhelpful diagnostic classifications and started looking at mental illness along the Empathy/Narcissism Spectrum more completely. This would help validate the actual damage caused by psychological and emotional abuse, and might help improve access for Empaths that need as part of effective treatment, a support network of similar individuals to help bring us out of the fog and into the Light. That help us access our Higher Power, or Spirit, or whatever that thing is that is Bigger (and Stronger, and Wiser, and Kind) than ourselves.

            I’m not sure how it would work with HG regarding data collection for statistical analysis of the experiences and traits of those he has consulted with. I think it would be fascinating to try to compile the data in a way that could be published and offer more scientific insight, but I think there would be issues with using the data he’s already collected for this purpose. He’d have to go back and get consent from all the participants… but if it was of interest to him, he could add the anonymous data collection for research purposes consent to the protocol as long as there was an option to “opt out” of having the data collected if specified by the client.

            HG is this something you have ever thought about or discussed with the Good Doctors as a way to have your work analyzed and validated in mainstream Psychology? I think your work stands alone and doesn’t necessarily need mainstream validation… it would be an achievement for your legacy though… and helpful for me in my own personal struggles 🙂

          7. HG Tudor says:

            My work has already received professional validation with regard to sections of it, this was part of the process involved in the delivery of my work prior to involvement with readers and clients. It has not been done in a mainstream manner however.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Hello MelMel, thank you for your response. What you have said in relation to people being misdiagnosed under other ‘conditions’ rather than one that is more specified for empaths – can leave someone to remain under the ‘incorrect label’ for possibly the rest of their life.

            “It helps me make sense of the internal pathology so that I can make clinical decisions in selecting the best treatment options” – I understand this and can relate to it. I am no ‘medical expert’ yet I know myself better than a medical person can (in my view & life experiences). This is also probably why I instinctively rather than logically decided against medications ie Prozac – because I knew that was NOT the answer for me as an individual.

            There are different types of PTSD, more than one and as usual, very few people (including the medical world) are actually aware of ie CPTSD.

            In relation to your 4th and 5th paragraphs – what you say makes sense and I agree. However, I question as to whether narcissism and empaths being classified under ‘mental illness’ when in my view that ‘terminology’ is scientifically incorrect – the brain-wiring of narcissists and empaths are affected because of narcissism and that, in my view, should be listed side by side in DSM (like an equational type of list – similar to a book-keeper’s double-enrtry ledger, if you like). Hence my rants in relation to my view that the DSM lists should be ripped apart and re-done completely.

            There are too many groups out there that purport to be victims of narcissism and to support victims and the main issue, I think, around that is they may get referrals from medical ‘experts’ to attend ones that are local to the individuals (patients). The issues around that are the local ‘support’ groups are not necessarily using the same ‘principles’ ie coming up with differentiating ‘mission statements’ instead of using one specific set – there is currently no Law specifically aimed at understanding narcissism and what to do.

            There is a number of ‘avenues’ which would lead to narcissism being specified as how HG has (as opposed to the existing 9 – too generic – ‘characteristics’ listed on the DSM5 as now) and also adding empaths to where it is required within the scientific & medical fields. A Clinical Commissioning Group actually have the power to commission HG and his KTN to carry out some work ie consultations. A GP can also refer patients to HG / KTN for consultations. Psychotherapists, Psychiatrists, the list goes on.

            RE: your 6th paragraph in relation to data collection – yes, I am aware of Data Protection Law in UK. No names would be required for this type of data, as some organisations use surveys without obtaining any personal information – the person would simply be a reference number (ie letters & numbers). Should this such result in data being ‘collected’, I am confident and trust that HG would use / is already using and following relevant legal guidance on this. This is apparent through his blog and KTN site.

            Because the human psyche is very complex, in my view, HG’s work about narcissism and his understanding about empaths should be made mainstream and used as such. He deserves that, at least, for what he has achieved so far and continues to do.

          9. Melmel says:

            Wow, I had no idea… Thanks for responding. Now I wish I was in the UK to watch what happens next. Well, I’m cheering on from Canada! KTN is the Bomb!

            Whoot whoot!

          10. Asp Emp says:

            MelMel, KTN (to my knowledge is worldwide, apart from 6 countries – unless there has been success since I was last aware of this). Yes, KTN is Ace – who needs TV? Thanks for the chat – enjoyed it 🙂

    2. Bubbles says:

      Dearest A Victor,
      I have heard this word ‘schmuck’ used many times before (mainly in movies) however, never really knew its full meaning. We don’t use the term ‘ schmuck ‘ here in Australia, so I looked it up!
      Meaning :-is a pejorative term meaning one who is stupid or foolish, or an obnoxious, contemptible or detestable person. The word came into the English language from Yiddish where it has a similar pejorative meanings, but where it’s literal meaning is a vulgar word for a penis (prick)

      Someone who is more than an idiot, moron, irritably stupid, annoying, stubborn and dumb

      You….. and all the lovelies here, are none of the above !!! We were all manipulated thru lies and deceit!

      We need to stop degrading ourselves as empaths ……even the word ’empath’, conjures up weak, sensitive, emotional n pathetic overtones compared to the word narcissist …. grandiose, entitled, egotistical, intimidating n bullying, usually associated with strength n power

      I primarily felt ‘silly’ with myself at first (in the sense of having a lack of common sense or judgement), however, it turned into being more ‘annoyed’ with myself for not going with my gut instinct!

      The narcissist will ever know the true depth of love or lasting friendships because they can be in neither!
      We are not the ‘schmucks’, they are !

      You have so got this AV, you’re moving leaps n bounds, congratulations !
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      Ps I luv the definition with peanut paste (Asp Emp ) 😂

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Bubbles, hello, I started reading your comment and started laughing…… thank you so much for your providing the definitions of ‘schmuck’…. especially the explanation as to how it appeared into the English Language (surprising really….. laughing).

        Yeah, I have no idea why it is called ‘peanut butter’ when it doesn’t even melt….. laughing…..

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Asp Emp,
          Hi lovely, I really had to know the meaning of schmuck myself, this is a great learning venue here hehe
          I’ve only known it as peanut paste, as butter is considered a dairy product
          I don’t go for the smooth, butter wouldn’t even melt in your mouth kind
          I’m a crunchy kinda gal, always leave em wanting for the peanut shells I say 🥜
          🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Ah Bubbles, yes, I think we have (as well as the whole blog) has an entire ‘dictionary’ of words on it’s own – a very unique dictionary, indeed!! Yeah, I reckon it should all be put together and published – the royalties go to HG, obviously. Yes, expensively covered and hand bound, no less. I’d proudly display it on my bookshelves, next to the Oxford version of the dictionary……. laughing at the rest of your comment. Ah, bless you, Bubbles x 🙂

          2. Leigh says:

            Did you look up the Yiddish meaning?

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Ahh yes, I can see it laying ‘on the shelf’ alongside Mr Tudor’s outstanding erect black leather, gold embossed, bound masterpieces
            Next to it, in blood red, the proudly displayed Volumes 1 – ….
            “The Tit Tat Tales of the Tudorites”
            😂
            Oxford who ? 📚 Some would seem to think he’s a bit of a dic, especially Merriam-Webster n Google
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles,…… laughing….. are you referring to the contents of my bookshelves ? How on earth did you know ?! 😉 Are we talking about books here? 😉 Laughing at your suggested title of the Tudorite’s Volumes, there’d be so many! And these Volumes would be chained together with multiple combination padlocks…..

          5. Bubbles says:

            Dear Leigh,
            It was the first thing that popped up under schmuck (Wikipedia)
            Hope that helps
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. Leigh says:

            I hadn’t saw your other response where you wrote the whole meaning. I knew the Yiddish meaning. I was raised Jewish. I was just wondering if you had saw it too.

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Hahahahaha ….. you naughty girl! I’m however, as pure as the driven snow …🤥
            🤣
            Mr Tudor probably has them lined up ready for his perfectly manicured finger to press the production line button for the House of Tudor products as we speak 📚buy 6 and you’ll get a pair of hand cu……I mean padlocks for free !!!!
            😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles,……. ME? Naughty? (intake of breath)……..laughing…..

            I’m going going to do it to you, again, Bubbles….. (laughing)…. “you’ll get a pair of hand cu…”…… does the last word end in ‘ms’??

            Production line….. that is hilarious…..

            From a very amused Empath x

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Asp Emp,
          Off to the naughty step you go 😱( you might find BC there) 😂
          It’s…….’uffs’ …….as in a police restraint device
          No reading out loud for you tonight 📚
          🤣
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Bubbles, “naughty step” – laughing….. I googled “cuuffs”…… laughing…… I can always do my reading, quietly, very quietly (even the neighbours won’t hear me) 😉 Thank you for the laughs, Bubbles x

        3. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Leigh,
          Is that your understanding and definition, being raised Jewish ?
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Leigh says:

            Yes, I’m aware of both meanings. I live in an area where schmuck is commonly used. Putz is another one. Putz and schmuck mean the same thing. All I know is whenever I hear either one of those words, I don’t think of a fool. 🤣🤣🤣

          2. Bubbles says:

            Dear Leigh,
            Yes I’ve heard of a putz as well
            Both sound like terms for someone just being a “real dick” as we would say here in Australia ……which pretty much covers everything
            Pity if one’s name is Richard, cos we all shorten it to Dick …..haha
            Are both terms considered offensive or is it kinda tongue in cheek with a touch of humour for good measure ?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Oh, Bubbles…..laughing at what you have said….. it’s tongue in cheek….. I say ‘Freedom Of Speech’ and all that. Sarcasmcan be very delightful when it is understood and is welcome when applying the sense of humour…. laughing.

          4. Leigh says:

            Bubbles, I find it offensive but I can see how some might not.

          5. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh and Asp Emp,
            ‘Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit’ …. narcs favourite dialogue! All the narcs I know use it liberally
            In the right context, can be highly amusing
            Sometimes there’s a very fine line
            What an interesting world of words we live in
            Thank you lovelies 💕
            Luv Bubbles

      2. A Victor says:

        Bubbles, thank you for the research on “schmuck”! I have not looked it up, but did understand it to be someone who was not the brightest and was gullible. So, I had it sort of correct. That is how my relationship with my ex has made me feel sometimes. But, I am moving beyond that, being here, he did it “on purpose” without knowing what he was doing, haha! I’m going with the gut instincts, watching for the red flags, going forward, your thoughts make so much sense. You are correct, I will never use it again to describe myself, not even in my mind!

        I don’t see empath as a negative, I see it as a strong (we’ve overcome abuse usually), kind, good person, one who has their priorities in place correctly. Broken, but still positive. I see narcissist as negative, broken and utterly sad. I know HG sees them opposite from this, but, it is our different perspectives.

        Thank you for the encouragement, that is so helpful!

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest A Victor,
          You’re very welcome lovely AV
          I don’t see empaths as weak either, I’m one of them!!!! haha
          I see narcs as being pretty much ‘devoid’

          I’m talking about other people’s perceptions who don’t know what we know
          We are the empowered strong survivors, the narcs learn nothing !
          Unfortunately for us, we have to be vigilant ones of the signs and red flags, whilst the narcs of the world get the free pass along with the wild card
          The sad part is, narcissism has increased and will continue to do so
          Always go with your gut instinct AV, if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it is a duck 🦆
          💕
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. A Victor says:

            Bubbles,
            Devoid, accurate but heartbreaking.

            I see what you mean about how people in general view the two groups.

            Thank you for the advice and encouragement to follow it! I will do my best! 😃

          2. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            It’s just ‘my’ own perception lovely one
            We would strive better if we allow our heads to rule our hearts and not our hearts rule our heads, that should pretty much keep one on the straight n narrow
            It’s a bit like a man’s penis ……”when the lower head sings in glory, the upper head loses its memory”
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I like your analogy!! That will help it stick in my head!

    3. BC30 says:

      🤢🤢🤢🤮 that word makes me think of really gross things that start with the letter “S” and not just santorum.

      You are NOT a shmuck!

      1. A Victor says:

        Hahahaha, thank you BC30!! You comment is the funniest so far today!! And, I appreciate the confirmation that I am not one! I have the same revulsion with many “p” words!

      2. Bubbles says:

        Dearest BC30,
        I was drinking my black (narc) coffee , except I have honey in mine haha when l looked up the meaning of santorum, nearly gagged on it ……the coffee that is ☕️😂
        🤢
        Who’d have thought there was a name for it 😱
        That’s what makes this Tudor dictionary so special 🤣
        I’m still recovering phew !!! 🤤
        Thanks for the lesson BC, I think 😂
        🍆🍑
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Chihuahuamum says:

          Hi Kat..Im also a believer in Jesus, but youre wrong about homosexuality. At one time i thought the sane until someone very close to me came out as gay. That mindframe is very damaging and needs to be changed. People can be born gay, bisexual etc. To expect them to change is wrong.I think it’s great Jesus is in your life, but please be careful in judging others.

        2. BC30 says:

          Sorry, friend! Haha, we learn something new every day. 🙂

          1. A Victor says:

            I’m still trying to forget the last “word” I looked up from one of the Mauls series!! Some learning is unnecessary!! Hahaha!!

        3. A Victor says:

          Oh dear, that is another word I could’ve never known and lived happily in my ignorance. Gross!

    4. Kat w. says:

      Its not “magical thinking”, Leela. I can tell you are still bitter and like a pitbull, refuse to let go. Anyone can change if they want to. They just have to want to. If your faith in Jesus as the strongest most powerful force that can do anything, you will see mountains begin to move. The homosexual can change if they want to, so can the narcissist. I know because I have. Jesus saved my life. There wouldn’t be science with God because God created all. God deserves to be worshippped, the narcissist just thinks he does. He wants what God already has. You dont want to wait til the end to find out it was too late. If you give it all up, all your wants, all your needs, everything, and say, it’s not about what i think or want anymore, and you let that still, small voice lead you, He will lead you to freedom. I heard that voice. Didn’t know who it was. For years and years the Lord would tell me things, Random things. I didn’t know why. I would know things before they happened. He was always right. Who is this? How do I know these things? And then one day when I was 25, He revealed Himself to me and i realized that He was telling me and showing me those things so I would recognize and trust His voice. I will never look back. I will never deny Him, even unto death. He gave His life for me, I can do that for Him. I cant deny what i have experienced, seen with my own eyes, and what i KNOW is true. Anymore than i can deny my own existenece. I just cant . Science is just only the study of God’s creation! There are some things we will never know. We cant know. Because if He doesnt want us to, we have to respect that and leave those things alone. Does the creation know more than the creator? Haha no, they cant, ever. Have to lean on and trust Creator, not self.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No, the narcissist wants to exist through the assertion of control and the receipt of fuel. He does not want what God already has, because God does not exist.

        When I was a boy, I asked God for help. Answer came there none.

        The narcissist cannot change.
        Why on earth would someone who is homosexual want to change? That is who they are.

        Feel free to talk with your imaginary friend for your own ends but do not come here and preach.

        1. Eternity says:

          HG, God did give you a lot without even realizing . He gave you intelligence for one .

      2. JB says:

        Kat w., “The homosexual can change if they want to” – seriously? I am heterosexual, and have never been remotely interested in women romantically. So what if I fancy giving homosexuality a try? I just flick a switch and boom! I now fancy women! Sorry, but I just don’t hold with that. How can a homosexual change who they are any more than I can change who I am?

        I just think it somewhat simplistic to say that anyone can change if they want to. How does this work with people such as HG? If your brain is wired in a particular way, how can wanting it be enough to make change happen?

        1. Another Cat says:

          “I just think it somewhat simplistic to say that anyone can change if they want to.”

          Well put JB. It’s like saying that if someone believed enough, their nonexisting arm would grow out.

          1. JB says:

            AC, exactly! Seems bizarre to me!

      3. Eternity says:

        I also believe in Jesus, but Narcissist cannot change. That would be wishful thinking and a miracle.. in society we need to accept people for who they are regardless. Homosexuals will not change that is who they are, nothing wrong with that. I am sorry I don’t know what planet you are from .

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Eternity,…. “I am sorry I don’t know what planet you are from”…. hilarious…… why are you apologising? 😉

          1. Eternity says:

            I didn’t want to be mean. But now this person sounds deluded.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing…..

      4. Asp Emp says:

        KW, FACT: it was science that mathematically created the Universe. God is a myth. Narcissism is not a myth.

      5. Empath007 says:

        A person can change behaviour(s) but they can not change the fundamentals of who they are genetically which was activated by their environment.

        A narcissits may change their actions/behaviour if they feel it would beneficial for them and their facade. But the change is not developed from inner desire to change something that is “wrong” with them or something that they dislike about themselves – because they are Incapable of understanding they too, could always improve.

        God doesn’t fit into the equation other then the narcissist using it as a way to develop their facAde – essentially they would be using the church as a tool, without the outcome of any Actual change.

        Empaths Are able to self reflect and we can also learn to change behaviours that are not beneficial to us – but we are still empaths – you can’t strip us of our empathy because it exists, it’s there. Some may use religion as a tool in their lives but it still doesn’t mean God gets any of the credit for their hard work – they educated themselves and made the changes.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well stated.

          1. Empath007 says:

            Thank you. I’ve learned from the best.

      6. Violetta says:

        When he finishes refection,
        Knife and fork he never lays
        Cross-wise, to my recollection,
        As do I, in Jesu’s praise.
        I the Trinity illustrate,
        Drinking watered orange pulp–
        In three sips the Arian frustrate;
        While he drains his at one gulp!

        – Robert Browning

      7. Bubbles says:

        Dear Kat,
        I feel some education is in order for you
        I was raised by a narcissist and my son is gay!
        I have the evidence, you don’t
        One sided conversations learn nothing !
        Bubbles

      8. Violetta says:

        Kat:

        Stick up your ass
        And you’re to blame
        You give God a bad name (bad name)
        You drive folks from God, and his word defame
        You give God a bad name (bad name)
        Hey, you give God, a bad name

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Violetta, that has got an applause from me – for the poetry. Even though I am not a believer in God. Grandfather told me God & Santa did not exist – I was around 8 years old. He was right.

          1. Violetta says:

            (modestly accepting award): I owe it all to Jesus and Bon Jovi.

      9. Witch says:

        Jesus was probably a down low getting fuel from all those disciples

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