Gabby Petito & Brian Laundrie : Analysis Part Four


HG Tudor dissects and analyses in detail the body cam footage from the incident at Woab,Utah on 12 August 2021 so you truly understand what was going on. Sensational insight.

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162 thoughts on “Gabby Petito & Brian Laundrie : Analysis Part Four

  1. Asp Emp says:

    RE: Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie : Analysis Part 5

    Very telling, the question being asked “are you normally this kind of like hyper”. I have seen a similar behaviour individuals – not just narcissists.

    Bigging himself up there – blithering on about work he has done “from all across the United States…..”. Quite possibly ‘magical thinking’ on his part…..

    OMG….the police saying “domestic assault” and that he has the “injury”….no wonder so many victims end up really traumatised as she appeared in these videos.

    I was also a victim of assault but there was “no case to answer to”. Hence this video series having an impact on my ET which raises yet does not get out of control because I tell myself it is what happened.

    (18:11) “his narcissism has removed his own behaviours from his memory that’s the way that the narcissism operates”… may come across to those who do not know how narcissism ‘works’ as ‘selective amnesia’. Myself and a friend talked about this a few years ago, within a couple of people we were discussing. It did appear that this ‘selective amnesia’ occurred often, especially when there was evidence ie other people around who would have seen what had happened. Eventually we were the ones pointed out to be the “protagonists” !!! Obviously, other people were NOT approached to ‘obtain’ any further “witness statements”. The two individuals we talked about had ‘convinced’ each other of what “really” happened by re-writing the scenario (revision of history on the mitigating circumstances). Having said that, the ‘relationships’ between us and them never improved after that. Nor did it between the two individuals (narcissists colliding), it never got “resolved”). Narcissism does cause ‘irrecoverable’ differences (including non-intimate relationships) and effectively leads to people going into different directions, more often than not, for the rest of those people’s lives – truly saddening, especially when such friendships end because of narcissists causing the ‘splits’ (isolation).

    Sometimes the damage is too deep for some people. For others, it can be ‘repaired’.

    For a few, it can never ever be ‘regained’ because they lost their life. Some through murder. Others through suicide.

  2. WiserNow says:

    The human remains found in Florida have now been confirmed as those of Brian Laundrie.

    The whole situation is an awful waste of two young lives. It’s tragic and sad they both wound up dead. I wonder what the policemen who attended the road-stop with them are thinking now. What a monumental error in decision-making that turned out to be, with the whole world watching and judging them closely.

    Now, Brian Laundrie will not be alive to face months or years of potential court cases, trials, appeals, TV ‘bombshell’ interviews, and probably a lifetime in prison. He will not be housed and fed and guarded, taking up space in a prison cell for the rest of his life.

    Before I knew the underlying details about narcissism and psychopathy, I wouldn’t have thought that Laundrie’s death was a ‘positive’ outcome. Now I’m not so sure, as awful as that sounds. With awareness about psychopathy in general, I think there is so much effort, resources, speculation, attention, legal questioning etc that all goes into trying to ‘reform’ such people. The thing is that all these things will not change their true nature.

    1. Ann McHale says:

      This is such a tragic Teenage” romance as the reality of this young couple’s relationship strongly indicates that neither posseed the emotional intelligence and/or maturity to actually be in a relationship with the other-It is obvious there were mental health issues with both individuals now sadly deceased, which made them vulnerable individuals with distinct specific needs whom experienced complex psychological/social challenges and behavioural needs, BI Polar/ADHD that required medical intervention/professionel theraputic intervention, eg CBT.

      I am saddened that it would appear that neither was actually in receipt of or actively following the recommended medical/theraputic care & support that clearly Petito’s highly emotional state merits as depicted in her engagement with MOAB police.

      It is clear the young couple were experiencing crisis point in their relationship as their dream life van life experience hit a bump in the road, couple were fast running out of funds, escalating the stress and tension between them.

      The young couple’s expectations in advance of embarking on their trip, were extremely high, as Petito’s meticulous striving, saving/planning and design of the interior of the immaculate white van demonstrate-One cannot but admire her initive and her hardwork & endeavour.

      Gabby Petito comes across as someone so in love with life and living and perhaps this is why this story is so heartbreaking.

      It is difficult to discern just what Brian Laundrie’s state of mind was in period 12th August to 23rd August, and most especially the time he spent at home in Florida apart from Gabby Petito. Certainly Brian Laundrie had elected to return home to Florida for good reason-least in his own mind. But certainly Brian lost “faith” in van life vlogger plan, as He was fast becoming broke, and could not forsee how couple could moneize their experience. I think he returned home, to secure dire needed funds and hoping Petito would give up…..
      The key period in the relationship breakdown occurrs within 4 days of his return, what was the source of his contention?

      1. WiserNow says:

        Hi Ann McHale,

        Thanks for your message. You raise some interesting points.

        What was the ‘source’ of Brian’s contention?

        Despite what the actual details may have been that lead to him killing her four days after they resumed their travels together, we know from HG’s analysis that Brian was a narcissist. I would say that the ‘source’ of his contention was his narcissism.

  3. WiserNow says:

    The autopsy results regarding Gabby Petito’s death were in the news today. The cause of death was stated as ‘manual strangulation/throttling’ (i.e. strangling by a human being).

    It’s very sad. Gabby Petito was only 22. She had her whole life ahead of her.

    After thinking about the case and HG’s analysis (especially HG’s ‘Trapped’ video), I can imagine how tense and emotionally charged it must have been living in the van for months on end. The confined space and the stress and inconvenience of not having privacy and home comforts would have exacerbated the narcissistic dynamic. Gabby was Brian Laundrie’s major or only fuel source, so I imagine he would have been manipulating and devaluing her constantly. Generally speaking, ‘van-life’ is not as fun and adventurous as it’s hyped up to be.

    It makes me think of car journeys I’ve had with narcissists in the past. Even when the journey was less than an hour, it was a case of deep breathing, staying focused, inner self-talk, etc. Going on a road-trip in a van for months would have been seriously stressful.

    Another thing that came to mind was the police stop and the way the police made it clear to Brian Laundrie that he had done nothing wrong. The policemen’s attitudes and treatment of Brian meant that Brian had no external ‘limits’ to his behaviour. Since narcissists do not have the inner restraints of empathy or a conscience and believe they are entitled and unaccountable, the only restraint that puts some kind of limit on their behaviour comes from external sources. The police in effect showed Brian he had no limits and they even befriended him.

    It’s a very sad case that ended in an innocent woman’s murder.

  4. Witch says:

    I have a friend who I’m scared will end up like Gabby because honestly she doesn’t listen to reason. I’m hoping this Narc finds someone else but I’m doubtful because he’s ugly as hell

    1. A Victor says:

      I worry about my daughter with this also. She is tiny, like Gabby was, and her husband is a solid man, physically. I sometimes worry that he won’t know his own strength. Or that he could push beyond a point of caring if he killed her, he gets so angry. She recently indicated concern, ever so slightly, about being worried about him being faithful. I would be so happy if he found someone else and left her.

      1. Joa says:

        Oh AV, I fear it so much in the future for my daughter.

        I know he has the same longing for the male element. And even more resistance than me (it devalues ​​more strongly).


        You will not do anything. We can only watch and help them get up when they fall.

        1. A Victor says:

          Joa, you are right, that is all we can do.

  5. BC30 says:

    So, it was an “accident”?

    Ns are not supposed to want us dead.

  6. WiserNow says:

    This case has become a media frenzy. It shows how such cases are viewed and reported in the US too.

    While Gabby was still missing and her whereabouts were unknown, her father went on the Dr Phil show to talk about her disappearance. When I saw that Dr Phil interviewed him while she was missing, it made me feel sick. Both her father and Dr Phil couldn’t care less about this young woman’s life or safety. They organised a prime-time TV interview while she was missing. To me, it looked like all they cared about was the publicity, attention, ratings and financial gain the ‘story’ provided for them.

    In other cases when I’ve seen a parent on the news due to their son or daughter being missing or kidnapped etc, the parent is crying and pleading for their child’s safe discovery or return. In such cases, the parent is so distraught they can hardly talk and their distress is plain to see.

    Gabby’s father was as cool and detached as can be. He was boasting about his own habit of using girls’ names for her boyfriends. He calmly and smugly explained his ‘theories’ about what happened to her and whether or not Brian Laundrie was responsible. All of this while his daughter was somewhere alone in the wilderness and had been missing for a week! It was extraordinary.

    I can see on social media that very few people want to criticise her parents because it is seen as disrespectful or uncaring to talk badly about the grieving parents. Despite this, I found it very telling that her father and Dr Phil organised a TV interview while she was missing and presumed murdered.

    It made me think that Gabby was ‘imprinted’ or conditioned to accept narcissistic abuse and this played a part in her being in a relationship with Laundrie. I would definitely not be surprised if her father is a narcissist too.

  7. WiserNow says:

    Thank you for your analysis of this case HG. Your breakdown of the police body cam footage is very interesting. It’s a good thing the body cam footage was filmed and also uploaded on YouTube for public viewing.

    So many things about this case are tragic. It’s devastating that Gabby is now dead. RIP Gabby.

    Having said that, if she were still alive, this case would not have blown up all over the world giving everyone a detailed and informative example of narcissism in real-life and how dangerous such toxic relationships can be. I’ve seen many people on YouTube comment how deceptive social media can be too. What people show is their ‘perfect’ lives while the reality behind the uploads is frighteningly different.

    If Gabby was still alive today, nobody would have seen the body cam footage and no-one would be talking about it. The incident would be just another domestic tiff amongst thousands and it would be long forgotten. It makes me think of how many other toxic, abusive relationships there are that go on daily and no-one talks about them.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  8. Duchessbea says:

    Excellent analysis of Laundrie. I would be of the opinion that Laundrie is too much of a Coward to have hidden out in the Carlton Reserve in Florida, and that he is on the run having been given a few days head start to getaway. I think the Laundrie family left the silver Mustang at the Carlton Reserve as a diversionary tactic to allow Brian that extra time to head to Mexico or to another National Park somewhere. As an experienced outdoors man he could live for years outdoors. Would you agree?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. I will be sharing my observations on such matters in future work.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Great. Looking forward to it. Thank you HG.

    2. WhoCares says:


      “As an experienced outdoors man he could live for years outdoors.”

      In my opinion, no. Because: fuel needs.

      I look forward to HG’s commentary on this.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        You are right, I wasn’t thinking. Likewise looking forward to HG’s commentary.

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      The parents in this situation are unbelievable. They appear to have helped him every step of the way and had not concern for Gabby, who lived with them for two years, whatsoever. They must be the most despised people in the country right now. I’d say the car at the Reserve was a red herring, and how convenient they left it three days to inform police about his ‘disappearance’. No one even knows if he was in the house when the police first came knocking and were directed to his solicitor, although I think he was seen by neighbours with his parent’s after his return, at least initially. This whole thing has ‘cover up’ written all over it, and I’d love to know why the police weren’t more forceful around the need to question him. Surely if a woman goes missing they have the ability to question the last person who saw her, lawyer or not? Is there something I’m missing here about how this case has been handled? It seems very shoddy on the part of law enforcement. To imagine they have let him ‘slip away’ if he was still there … if that’s the case it would be unimaginable to be Gabby’s parent’s right now in their fight for answers.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Well, it seems like we finally have an outcome on this tragic case, and it is tragic all round. I feel no sympathy for this young man’s parents after all the stonewalling they did in this case, and questions are being raised about their involvement in the later stages of the search for their son. There is talk of a deal being done which releases them from any charges – I’m guessing if they provided information about his whereabouts – and I wouldn’t be surprised if after maintaining a level of contact with him they found a loss of contact a worrying development which could have prompted them also. Obviously there’s a lot of detail still to come out, but it’s a waste of two young lives on the basis of narcissism and its effects. That is what I am most sorry about. Whether either of these families will learn anything about that is hard to say, but certainly a lot of other people will have grasped a better understanding. If that is to be Gabby’s legacy, then let it be so. Brian’s legacy will unfortunately always be that he brutally murdered his girlfriend, likely in an moment of fury, and his last acts on earth were nothing less than cowardly. One way or another, he got his justice in the end.

  9. Chihuahuamum says:

    It really sickens me how Brian was able to win over these two officers. The female park ranger however didn’t buy into his act and warned Gabby to rethink her relationship with him. She should of also warned her to wait to break up with him until they were back home or she was in a safe place to do so. The break up can be the most dangerous point in a narcissistic relationship.
    Im surprised these officers didn’t ask brian why he was taking control over HER van! It wasn’t his van to lock her out of. He had also taken her phone at one point. Those are bully tactics. Het van and phone were her property and he had no right to do that to her.
    One crucial point that’s been overlooked a lot in the media is Rose Gabby’s friend had mentioned that she said he heard voices in his head. He very well could have scitzophrenia!

    1. Violetta says:

      Or be preparing an insanity defense.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi Violetta… He could use that defense and the fact Rose Gabby’s friend mentioned he heard voices would coalign with that.

    2. A Victor says:

      I was wondering about that locking her out of the van too!! How did that not translate to abuse in itself? Was he in it at that time? I thought they were both outside of it and he was telling her they would walk in opposite directions, another thing I wondered about because, excuse me, I’ll walk if I want to, not because anyone tells me to. I didn’t pick up on the female officer talking to her about that but I did notice she seemed less taken in by Brian. He didn’t seem to be addressing her as much either, like he didn’t feel like he needed to control her, it was odd.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi A Victor…
        Brian told the officers they were both outside the truck, but she was witnessed trying to get in thru his door with him inside.
        I think he addressed the men because they were more narcissistic in traits. The female park ranger could see right thru Brian and tried to talk sense to Gabby to reevaluate her relationship with him. Possibly she did and that is why she was killed. She may have broken it off with him on the day he killed her.
        Also to take note it was in Utah and some of the male population is Mormon. They view women differently there and tend to side more with men. Men are viewed more important and women don’t hold as much power.

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi Chihuahuamum,
          Yes, I picked up on a few discrepancies, the in or out of the car, and also who owned it, being a couple of them. Yes, Utah is different, that is a good observation to keep in mind. I am so looking forward to hearing more from HG about all of this, I feel like he puts it all into such logical perspective, as only he can! I wonder if we will ever know what triggered it, I suspect it has something to do with this interaction with law enforcement. Oh, yes, the men posed more of a threat to control? Because of their more narcissistic traits? Or, he was more able to suck them in to his game because of the higher N traits? Either way, it is clear that the female ranger did respond in a very different way, almost more logical in a sense, I think. But not to each person in the situation’s own perspective I guess. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, very interesting, it is all good for learning!

          1. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi A Victor…
            Thank you for your reply! Yes i look forward to more on this case thru HG’s knowledge in regards to narcissism.
            I’d meant that Brian was able to control the 2 officers because of their narc traits. Not to say they were narcs, but possibly had more narc traita opposed to the female ranger. I found them to be dismissive of women and a bit sexist, but they are possibly mormon. Mormons i think view things differently in that respect. There is a lot of polygamy there and catering to men’s needs and their opinions matter more than womens.
            After the 2 were seperated for a night they did continue on traveling for a few days and recorded. They were happy, but the last day she was seen alive Brian was very angry. I have mixed feelings. Either he was involved in the other 2 girls murder and she found out or she tried to end their relationship and he lost it. Something volitile happened. His parents i think are narcissists. How they could help him escape and not reach out to Gabby’s parents is dispicable!

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I agree with CwM. I think the female officer was less taken in by him and so it was a threat to his control so he had to control that which he knew he could.

        I seem to threaten the control of some Ns in a similarish way. I used to wonder why they didn’t like me, now I know.

        1. A Victor says:

          Alexissmith, what do you suppose it is about you that threatens them? This is very interesting, is it useful as a form of narc repellent? Knowing their game, so to speak, and just not playing it? That would threaten them. First would be to determine they are actually narcissists, I’m still working on that part! 😂

          1. Witch says:

            @A Victor

            I think we can threaten the narcissists control without intending to and therefore some narcs just won’t like you on the first intention. It could be anything.. you didn’t suck their arse enough, your shoes looks better then theirs.. who knows?
            I strongly suspect my partner’s sister is a narc (I say strongly suspect but tbh I know she is), she didn’t even want to look at me the first time she met me. She almost completely ignored me. I’ve only met her twice and the second time she pretty much behaved the same way. I don’t take it personally because I know what I’m dealing with. Once my partner asked me to speak to her sister over the phone about something and I said sorry I’m busy lol

          2. A Victor says:

            @ Witch, so it can be pretty much anything, I guess. I recently had an experience with a narcissist and something that was unimportant and a bit funny to me seemed to really offend the narc, I did pick up from that experience that we can do it so easily, they are so sensitive, it was a good learning experience. I have yet to sort out if it’s worth worrying about offending, since it seems inevitable anyway, or try to avoid, out of politeness and try to fix it when it happens. Kind of feel like I have done the second option my entire life. Thank you for your comment, it is helpful.

          3. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Only just seen this AV. Lots of different things really. I criticise them without being aware of it, in subtle little ways. for example if I’m not taken in by their lies, even if I don’t say anything my face will say it all. And if that doesn’t my unspoken response will.

            I notice I like to do the right thing snd be accurate about a given problem, even if that means the person may not like what I say.

            I’m incredibly aware of it now. Ive learned so much from HG. It’s enabled me to give considerable thought to the perspective of an N. And it’s transformed how I interact with Ns and other people really.

            I try to avoid repelling them I guess, more learn how to get along with them when I have to. Without becoming involved. Except when I want to. But I csn say my addiction and emotional thinking are generally at an all time low.

            It took me a few years I’d being on this site to successfully work out who the Ns are. I had to make lots of mistakes along the way too.

          4. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith, I think you are so cool. I have looked way back, way way back, on the blog and seen your comments. You have made this a real study and I find that so commendable. And you have really gotten a grip on yourself and the whole thing, I hope to be there someday.

            I can see how the understanding of how they function would cause an awareness, I see it in myself also, but not in a very constructive way yet, just the beginning still. I find the understanding, for me anyway, comes in chunks, a bunch will click and then I’ll stagnate as I study some more. So hopefully that happens with this aspect also, as time goes on. Thank you for sharing that comment, it is encouraging.

          5. Alexissmith2016 says:

            My understanding comes in chunks too. I poodle along thinking I have understood everything as far as i csn. Sometimes feeling I’ve learned it all, other times knowing there are gaps but I’m not sure what they are. And even now, I still have those little aha moments when HG enlightens us further.
            Other times he has enlightened us some time I go and I must have skipped past something or not taken it in or read it several times months apart and then all of a sudden I’ll see something which was always there previously but I failed to see.

            You will learn for sure. And I found it also helpful to study the lessers in depth first, like their manipulations etc are so much more primitive but it helped me then move on the mids and then greaters. Although I have much less exposure to greeters, through my work I do have some.

            For example when you learn about the igniter fury of a lesser, you learn to spot it more in the mids and then the greaters. How you only see the blink of an eye or the split second drop in face which would ordinarily go unnoticed. But when you understand what triggers it, you see it.

            There is a journalist/celebrity whom I used to adore. I loved his style of interviewing. When I added him to my list for HG, he later confirmed through one of his lists that he was a cerebral greater. I wss in total shock really.

            I watched one of his programmes the other day and you can actually see the subtleties in his facial expressions when someone has threatened his control but how quickly he gains composure. Previously I thought he always had composure and he does but you see the threat to his control. That’s why learning about celebrities is invaluable because we can apply it to people we know. Excited to purchase the Alec analysis!

          6. A Victor says:

            Wow Alexissmith, thank you for your reply! I will study them in that order, it hadn’t occurred to me to do so but that makes perfect sense! I still feel like I have so much to learn. This morning I was listening to “Can a Narcissist Love Anyone”, I think that’s right, anyway it’s on TikToc (sp?), for probably the 40th time. And guess what?? Oh my goodness, suddenly it clicked, the connection between love and empathy! I have known there is a connection but this morning for some reason, listening again, it hit me in a whole new light. Everything I do is “controlled” or at least monitored by my emotional empathy. It is why I could not have abused my children, for example. It just wouldn’t have been within the realm of possibility for me to do so. My empathy, whether I “feel” it or not is in control of that, won’t allow it, for me. My mom, not having any empathy didn’t and still doesn’t think twice about how she abused us! I have struggled to get my head around her doing that but literally no empathy, no love. Done. I am not expressing it clearly but it is an example of a click, haha, for me and a very basic one at that. I really appreciate those of you who’ve been through these things when you input into the conversation, it is so beneficial for our learning, in addition to HG, of course! Thank you so much for that detailed reply about the how and why, what to watch for, really great!

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      I watched an interview with her friend Rose. I didn’t get a very good vibe from her. I wonder if she was also somewhat controlling, like Gabby may have been caught between two narcissists. Although she has potentially shed some light on the controlling aspects of Brian’s nature.

      1. A Victor says:

        LET, I had a similar weird sense about her! Something seemed off, fake, like she wasn’t really concerned at all. It was odd. Maybe HG will cover something there as well. How far out can he go though, given limited info about different people. But, yes, something odd there.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AV, glad you agree. I only saw a short clip of an interview with her – I think it was the first time she was being interviewed on camera – but she did seem somewhat unconcerned, although it’s hard to know what editing does to create certain impressions also.

          A couple of red flags:
          a) Gabby met Rose online
          b) She said Gabby had no friends – likely reason or her to be online to make new friends in Florida – and also that she was isolated due to Brian’s influence. Of course, we know that could be true, but the next point raises another red flag for me in relation to Rose and her influence, or need to influence.
          c) They shared a ‘tracking app’ on their phones so they knew eachother’s locations.

          That last one creeps me out. I wouldn’t allow anyone to have the ability to track me on my phone unless I was fearful of someone else in my life. It’s possible this could be Gabby’s reasoning, and we don’t know who suggested it, but there is a real lack of boundaries in this newfound friendship from my point of view.

          Rose also refers to incidents where Gabby came to her when she and Brian were fighting, and basically gives the exact same details as Gabby provided when she and Brian were pulled over – basically that she slapped him and Brian pushed her. Maybe they had a habit of slapping and pushing eachother during arguments, i.e. getting physical. I just don’t know how much is true and how much she just pulled out of the police interview.

          Here’s another couple of interesting comments from Rose:

          “Neither of us had any friends”
          “We just went everywhere together”
          “We’d tell people she was my emotional service human”

          I’m probably seeing more red flags as I’m typing here, but she sounds like she was trying to obtain as much control over Gabby as Brian may have done, hence my comment about Gabby being caught between two narcissists.

          1. A Victor says:


            “We’d tell people she was my emotional service human” – wow!! If that’s not objectifying, I don’t know what is! You’ve seen much more of this “friend” than I have, I only saw a short clip and instantly did not feel she was really concerned. But, like you said, it could be editing, so I didn’t give it much more thought until I saw your previous comment. Your new comment here is really interesting. They tracked each other?? That is super creepy! Poor Gabby, she was likely the victim of several narcissists in her short lifetime.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I probably saw the same clip you did – an initial interview- when I made my first comment. I went to an article after that to discover more which may have included information from subsequent interviews. The tracking app was mentioned in the first interview I saw, but the comment about Gabby being her “emotional service human” was new to me. It just added to my original impression that Gabby was vulnerable and her ‘friend’ Rose was using her in much the same way Brian was, which also made me think there were two narcs going head to head trying to get control. Apparently Rose was due to join them on their trip around the point in time it all went south (so to speak) and this could have been an added factor in the tensions between Brian and Gabby, too. He didn’t like Rose, or Gabby hanging out with Rose, she challenged his control, and Gabby was piggy in the middle between the two of them. I can imagine Gabby feeling pressured by both of them to satisfy their needs, and maybe Rose was part of the reason they fought. It wouldn’t matter if she was a narcissist from Brian’s perspective, the main thing being he was the one in control. Gabby may have threatened his control by insisting Rose join them. There are so many threads to this story which are yet to be untangled. I’m looking forward to understanding more when the time comes.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for the information on her “friend”. Bloody hell, the tracking is like WTF. Ok, that is understandable for a child / parent. Yes, I also watched a short video of Rose too. I was paying a lot of attention to her eyes more than anything else……I did wonder because there was the similarity – plastic (god, I started laughing as I typed that word)……

            MRN I knew also said the same words RE: friends, meaning he did not “talk” to anyone else……I suppose the pity-playing-victim-card……

            “Emotional service human”….fking hell! A clear indication, in my view, Gabby was Rose’s appliance / object – those 3 words, to me, are Narcspeak. Saying that Gabby is not human but pretending to be one hence using the 3 words…….I’d smack Rose one for that statement alone……no normal, nor empath would have come up with anything like that…..

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey AspEmp, I would have to agree, no normal or empath would come up with a phrase like “emotional service human” – fking hell is right! What is an emotional service human? Someone who provides or services you with emotion, that would be my guess. Gabby is providing something Rose needs. She’s so sure of it she tells other people about it. Gabby isn’t her ‘friend’, she’s her ’emotional service human’ – very objectifying. And what does Rose see herself as if she refers to Gabby as ‘human’? Not human? I think she knows she lacks feeling or emotion, which makes her in a sense ‘inhuman’, which also means she needs to attach herself to someone like Gabby to become more human. Someone like Gabby would make her seem more likeable and Gabby could be of use helping her to connect to others. Just thinking about this creeps me out a bit as the idea of using people in that way is anathema to an empath, but no doubt she doesn’t see herself as using Gabby having no awareness of what she is – and I’m convinced she is a narcissist, too.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I started laughing when I read the start of your response….An “emotional service human” is a talking washing machine 😉 Interesting though, Rose gave her facade away by those words alone! I suppose the more we learn about narcissists and their ‘language’ (spoken or body) – the more we “notice”…..

            I agree with what you say though. Thank you for your reply, LET, good to read as usual 🙂

  10. Asp Emp says:

    Hmmm, it appears to me that it seems to be a rather common ‘stance’ that a narcissist ‘adopts’ – standing there with their hands clasped in front of them with that look of ‘I am not guilty’ on their faces – when they are in “assessment mode” (their narcissism ‘assessing’ any potential threats to control and / or maintaining the position as if waiting to ‘strike’ by asserting control, when the moment arises).

    The girl’s father ‘adopts’ a similar ‘stance’ in a video that I observed.

    The ‘asserting of control’ appeared to occur at the same time he moves his arms and starts gesturing with his hands……

    HG, I agree with one of the commentors on YT that these videos would be of real constructive ‘training material’ for police forces.

    Thank you, HG for doing these. I found them interesting, not enjoyable because of the seriousness of the harsh realities of narcissism and it’s affects over those concerned. Some of your education makes for harrowing learning on occasion and this is one of those times. Yet it is still very important to share this information. For some reason or another, the image from your article ‘Toxic Logic’ (the one flower within a barren landscape) came into my mind as I typed these last few words….with a somewhat subdued and reflective mood.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Thank you, HG.

    2. Leigh says:

      Asp, its interesting that you said the girl’s father adopted the same stance. I’m questioning if he’s a narcissist too. They had the funeral for Gabby this past weekend and it was opened to the public. I thought that was a HUGE red flag. He even livestreamed the service and his eulogy. It all feels like a way to get fuel and assert control.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, thank you for that. I think it’s all in the ‘body language’ 😉 Not necessarily just narcissists though. Maybe the father (or, if he is a narcissist, his narcissism) “advised” him to make it public….then again, it is early days into the whole investigation. Livestreaming your own daughter’s funeral and his eulogy – it does sound like red flags ‘announcements’.

        HG’s ‘Why Can’t They See It Too?’ springs to my mind……

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, HG 🙂

      2. A Victor says:

        Yes, and he doesn’t even seem upset! The step dad seems more upset! But, the step dad had the blinking eyes in an interview I saw with him. If they are both narcissists, the step dad is more effective I think.

      3. Truthseeker6157 says:


        Agree. Privacy issue. I’m starting to think that utter disregard of privacy is one of the easier behaviours to spot. It must fall under lack of boundary recognition but to me it feels like privacy invasion. Opening a funeral up to public scrutiny is utterly bizarre in my book. I can’t imagine ever doing that, even to publicise the case and increase awareness that Laundrie is still on the run. It feels like nails down a chalk board and wreaks of narcissist.

        Laundrie’s family too. Similar deal. They aren’t being evasive simply to defend Laundrie. They are evasive because emotional empathy is absent.

        1. Leigh says:

          TS, I would agree that disregard to privacy is definitely a lack of boundary recognition. Although in this case, it was his daughter so he probably didn’t see a need to be private. Did you see LET’s response? Her take on it is an opposing view but it does make some sense.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Just read LET’s response. Hey LET x

            I can see the thinking here, public appeals do take place in cases like this one. It is possible that the aim is to keep the case in the public eye so that more are on the look out for Laundrie. It’s very possible.

            I also think in some ways we attempt to find a reason for behaviours that feel ‘off’. That’s part of who we are, so it’s difficult to know if we are being overly harsh, or if our gut is right. I alluded to a similar thought by way of explanation in my comment, so I can see where LET is coming from here.

            Personally though, It doesn’t sit right with me. The father’s comments are valid about leaving an unhealthy relationship. I just don’t think I would be capable of making that comment at that particular time. Too soon. Later yes, right now? No.

            It reminds me of that actress who publicised her miscarriage. Raising awareness of the loss that accompanies a miscarriage is valid. You would do it later though. Not immediately after it happened. I feel similarly as regards the behaviours being displayed here. They don’t feel genuine. They feel cognitive not emotional.


          2. Leigh says:

            TS, Mr. Tudor has alluded in one of the videos about Gabby that is her abuse started before Brian came in the picture. I’m thinking my gut instincts were right here. We shall see.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey TS 🙂

            Happy to read your thoughts on this, and I can say I agree. There is something ‘off’ about how this has all gone down with both families, and it makes me feel even sorrier for Gabby, ultimately being caught between a rock and a hard place. Many of us will know how that feels, caught between the narcissist and our family. Neither option is a good one. Which might explain why she persevered with Laundrie even if the situation wasn’t right. I have so many thoughts around this case.

            I haven’t watched any videos or shows involving either Gabby’s father or stepfather. It seems the men have taken charge as I’m hearing little from the mother, which could be an indication of a cowed empath. And I think my initial reaction or thoughts were coming from a more empathic place. How would I feel if that was my daughter? How would I feel if I couldn’t get answers and people weren’t talking? I would be distraught, and I would also be furious! I honestly don’t know where my emotions would take me.

            I think I would want my grief to be personal and my anger to be public. That probably sums it up for me. I wouldn’t hold a public, live streamed, service because grief to me is a personal thing. But we do need people to share in it. I think the public has shown many times they are capable of doing that in a variety of ways and the initiative should come from them. And yes, I would be too distraught to think of opening the whole thing to public display. I can definitely see where the element of narcissism could link in with Gabby’s side of the family.

            I often feel for parents in these circumstances who have to publicly display their grief and trauma when something like this happens, either due to police advising it or due to press intrusion. I don’t think I could front a camera in distress, and I would expect people to be awkward about that. When people seek the camera and an element of the limelight, that is when a red flag is raised for me. In that sense, I’m definitely leaning more towards the narcissistic element being apparent in Gabby’s family also.

            Interesting comment earlier about Laundrie’s family and their lack of empathy. There is more than a distinct lack of empathy, people are outraged at their behaviour, and what we may have is two families headed by narcissists and going head to head. Somehow, in the midst of it all, there is the solitary figure of a broken young woman who paid the ultimate price for her entanglement/s with a narcissist. The more I write, the sadder I feel.

            And the more beneficial I find this site to be xox

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:


            “ I think I would want my grief to be personal and my anger to be public.” Exactly. Like you I can’t imagine even being able to face family and friends if my child was taken from me in those circumstances. I can’t imagine being able to speak, I just imagine that ache crushing through my chest. I don’t even want to think about it.

            I think that poor girl was utterly surrounded by narcissists. Trapped every which way, it’s an incredibly sad tale. The thought of her on the road seeing all of those beautiful places, yet so entirely alone in it. Laundrie chip chip chipping away at her, ruining it all, such a horrible shame.

            I see that her family all got matching tattoos in remembrance. Well that’s nice. “ See how much we miss her, see how united we are in grief, look at us and our tattoos.” Vile. One of them is actually smiling in the photo. I assume that’s the uncle, jumping in on the action. As we know, where there’s a funeral, it’s like sounding the feeding bell for the narcs. I’m sure he’s distraught, of course, they would have been very very close.

            Stories like this remind me of what we were all dealing with. The masks come off and what we see is truly repugnant. This is what our own narcissists were like underneath.

            I think HG has done an excellent job with this series. The explanations alongside the video footage and the linking back to articles makes real sense of it. I look forward to his analysis of the behaviours shown by the two families.

            There’s a lot of learning to be drawn out of this series. I’m beginning to think that whilst everyone might not react to things in exactly the same way as me, that my reactions are almost a norm or control. So if there is something that I really would never consider doing, such as talking about a miscarriage directly after a miscarriage, then, something isn’t right. If we can both say those circumstances surrounding Gabby’s death would cause us to grieve privately above all else, then that’s the norm. Behaviours that are in total opposition to that are highly suspect. I’m done making excuses for poor behaviour. We know what’s right and what’s wrong. I’m sticking to what I know going forward. No more Mrs Nice Guy / Gal !

            That sounds like a criticism of your first comment. It’s not meant to be at all. I thought the same thing at first, maybe they just want to keep the case in the public eye. There are cases where family members are interviewed and I agree sometimes you can see the discomfort that goes with the choice to face the cameras when they are dying inside. It makes sense that the publicity around the funeral was done for similar reasons but instinctively it feels all wrong. It feels like a pretence. We need to listen to our instincts because I honestly think our instincts are rarely wrong. We just don’t always follow them.


          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey TS, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts again and I didn’t read that as a criticism of my first comment. I hadn’t focused on Gabby’s family’s reaction initially, simply because I was too focused on the Laundrie family’s lack of reaction, if that makes sense. I was totally focused on the need to get answers and the people who weren’t giving them, so I gave Gabby’s family plenty of leeway in the circumstances.

            You’ve made some really good points, and the matching tattoos is kind of creepy, though lots of people will read that as ‘sentimental’. I haven’t seen or read anything about it, but it does smack of the families drawing attention to themselves rather than Gabby, even though the tattoos are supposedly for her. A lot of people will think she deserves to be remembered and that is one way of the family showing a united front while doing that. Those are the people who perhaps haven’t yet been introduced to the idea of narcissism, much like my original comment wasn’t focused on it being an insidious element of Gabby’s life and experiences. It can catch us even when we are aware at times.

            I hear you on being done with making excuses for poor behaviour. As empaths we are inclined to give so much leeway which is, of course, what the narcissist relies on. We give people the benefit of the doubt, try to see things from their perspective, make allowances for their behaviour in the circumstances. In that sense, we need to see how close narcissism sails to the wind of our empathy. None of those things are wrong in and of themselves, or on the basis of us having empathy. Where they do go wrong is in the instance of someone taking advantage of them. That’s what we need to be on the lookout for, I think.

            It is also a good idea to rely on our instincts and know that if something doesn’t feel right it probably isn’t. Our first take is often our best one, but we’re inclined not to want to make judgements. Our empathic nature gives narcississts a free pass when they shouldn’t get one. We truly have to wrestle with ourselves and our natures in this context.

            The idea of Gabby pinning so many of her hopes and dreams on that trip and Brian dismantling them one by one, as you describe, is really saddening. Especially when you imagine the beauty of scenery and it’s meaning to someone who could truly appreciate it. The narcissist loves to dash our hopes and our dreams. It’s what gives them fuel as they see the power and control they have over us with their ability to act just like God – “the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away”. My last narc dashed plans with regard to a holiday, which I now understand was a matter of future faking, but he must have felt just like God to pull that rug out from under me. If we’d taken that trip together I can only imagine how much worse it would have been, a dream holiday turned into a nightmare.

            “Stories like this remind me of what we were all dealing with. The masks come off and what we see is truly repugnant. This is what our own narcissists were like underneath.” Definitely. It’s a thought to hold onto going forward, whenever we fall into the trap of remembering the ‘good times’ … what was underneath them was a whole lot of bad, and the bad was the reality. The good was only an illusion xox

          6. A Victor says:

            LET, “…done with making excuses for poor behaviour…” I have been thinking exactly this the last couple of days. Why should anyone be allowed to mistreat another even a little tiny bit? They should not.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey AV, that thought originally came from TS, but it’s one we all seem to share. No doubt we all made those excuses which helped to keep us in place. I’ve done it with every single narc in my life, and parental narcs are the hardest ones to expunge from our lives because those ties run so deep. Marriage with kids can also keep you bound. But whatever about our ability to implement a no contact regime, the truth of the matter is exactly as you state it – no one should be allowed to mistreat us – and we must do our part in saying “I will not allow you to treat me that way”. That’s where we create the boundary, or draw the line in the sand. “You can go here and no further.” “Stop right there.” “Don’t even think about it.” These are thoughts I would have, or try to hold, when it comes to those who would try to take advantage of me. It’s good that we are sharing these thoughts as we do need to be reminded from time to time. We get so used to being walked all over and accepting that as our role in life.

          8. A Victor says:

            LET, I just came across this comment, so sorry. Yes, we help each other remember things, that is a lot of the support I think.

            I saw earlier, on some thread today, a supernova from a Magnet described, I think it was Asp Emp, don’t remember the thread. I’m curious if you have experienced one, since that is part of your makeup, and how you describe it if so. I am trying to sort it out because mine, Standard/Savior but very strong Super, I would’ve described differently. I am wondering how the different schools and cadres “feel” this, if that makes sense. Asp Emp’s description was interesting but I can’t remember it now. I will try to find it again.. It is likely that variences can be chalked up to personality differences also so it may not really say much toward it. If you don’t care to discuss this, I understand.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            I focus my Supernova experience on my most recent narc, though no doubt I drew a line in the sand with my ex-husband a couple of times which may have added up to the same. I’m not sure if the Magnet Cadre has as much to do with the Supernova as the actual School, but mine consisted of me playing some of the narcissist’s manipulations against him. He didn’t expect that. Partly because up to that point I had been a much more reliable ‘appliance’. So perhaps you are thinking of my other School – CoD.

            I had taken a lot of his sh*t up to that point and the point of me turning on him – as the apprentice turns on their master – was when we had been particularly intimate and I was fully under his seductive powers again. One of HG’s articles describes it well, where he is discussing with Dr. O, I think, the moment of total hegemonic control and he calls the IPPS by another woman’s name. It wasn’t quite that, but he triangulated me with another woman shortly after and that’s what pushed the DESTRUCT button! It was the combination of intimacy and devaluation within a very short space of time that put the final nail in the coffin. He knew how to hurt me, and it was an obvious devaluation, one I couldn’t miss. It made me feel ‘cheap’, and he mentioned ‘sluts’ referring to other women in a conversation leading up to that moment. He didn’t use those terms around me normally. It wasn’t hard to marry all the factors together which fired up my Super to get me out of there.

            Not before I got my revenge.

            I began to play him, and not just him but others at their own game after that. Perhaps the Magnet draws people in, and so maybe my Magnet in part kept me hidden as people were still responsive to me. He had to know the game was up as while they were getting my attention, he was not. I was upping the ante in terms of making myself appealing to others while keeping him at bay. I very deliberately triangulated him and also showed images of me on a trip with a guy obviously eyeing me up in the background. It was all designed to wound him, but at the time I didn’t know he was a narcissist or that my reaction was a Supernova. I just knew it was over and I was going to make him pay for what he had done to me. So that’s definitely a dimming of the empathic traits and my narcissistic traits coming to the fore.

            He withdrew under the onslaught and I felt I had made my point, so I withdrew, too.

            Believe me when I say he enjoined me in the Supernova event, he didn’t take it lying down and continued to try to belittle me. We were like to sword fighters dealing blows to one another via a number of manipulations. He had taught me. He came to regret it, for a short while anyway. Of course, it doesn’t take a narcissist long to move on, but regardless of the Supernova I was still as bereft as if it had never taken place once he withdrew. I don’t know what that says except a Supernova event is not going to cure you of your addiction. I wish it did <3

          10. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, thank you for that thorough description. I am now wondering if cadre affects what a supernova, or a cliff fightback, will look like. I expect it does, but need to find out how…these are things I am curious about!

            I see the supernova in your words, in some ways similar to mine, more public certainly with the photo and other people pulled into it. Being predominantly Savior, I think my supernova events were trained on fixing more than revenge. And when efforts to fix were ineffective, it switched to a wait and see mode, and then, with my first ex, escape. But, like you, I also used his techniques on him, those were the things that seemed the most effective. I would say it began at 3-4 months into the relationship. My ex also didn’t take it lying down, but he would back off eventually, and seem to come around, enough to keep me there trying anyway. I agree, it does not cure the addiction! Sadly!

            One other thought that keeps coming back to me, I was never afraid of my ex, foolish as that sounds given what I now think he was actually up to, save the one night he came and went all through the night, high on 5 different chemicals. That experience changed a lot of things in our dynamic, I was never afraid of him again after that, because I put safeguards into place, that he did not know about. Even that experience though did not bring a cliff fightback, we just left and I dealt with it apart from him, he didn’t know where we were until I felt things were arranged and it was safe to go back. After that, things were very different, my super was on alert much more. My first ex did frighten me, once, when it happened, I left, that was it. And the summer narc got one weekend, a couple of comments and an attitude, and he was history. No one should put up with their sh*t, not for a second. Wasting all those years trying to make things right with my ex taught me something at least, and I practiced it on the summer narc. Then I found here and figured a lot of it out!! I think to myself, had my parents been normal or empaths, I would’ve been a strong and effective person. I am still strong but have had to spend too much time trying to work out these things, it has diminished my effectiveness in some areas of my life, took time and energy that could’ve been devoted to better things. It can make me angry sometimes, to think about this, like they gave me life but then stole from me much that could’ve been. I best not think about it. Sorry for the rant. It does help to get the thoughts out of my head, then I can leave them behind or seek clarity, whichever seems needed.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I have to go to the last part of your comment first and agree on how different we and our lives could have been if our parent/s had not been narcissists. It is best not to think about it as it is a moot point since we cannot change the past, even though many times I’ve wished I could. So many of these revelations seem to come too late, although it’s always easier to see how things could have been done differently in hindsight. It’s how we learn from experience. We have to go through it first to learn the lessons it has to teach. Some of our experiences were not of our choosing, though, which in some ways can make it harder to accept them as learning tools, or beneficial in any way. Lots of philosophical thoughts there which I’m working on as I go 🙂

            Having said all that, I concur with your thoughts that our experience with a narcissitic parent diminished us as we spent time dealing with the fallout from that, and anger is a given because an element of our potential was stolen from us. I don’t find these thoughts unreasonable, though I do find them poignant. I really wish things could have been different for both of us. We see it play out on our children in some aspects, too. I think we feel it even more for them. Probably the most important thing to focus on is the fact we now know what we are dealing with and the power has been given back to us to do something about it. HG, with his knowledge and insight, has given back in some ways what was stolen because he is one who steals and like a magician can show us how the ‘trick’ was done and thus help remove the ‘magic’ of the narcissist to trick us again. We’ve got this going forward, the past will have to be left to its own mercies.

            When it comes to the Super element and the Supernova event, I feel there is a need to separate the two out. While we might be acting on our Super, as one of our schools, I don’t think this always qualifies as a Supernova event. This is a complex area where sometimes confusion reigns. I could state categorically, with the understanding I’ve been given here, I may have experienced a Supernova event a couple of times throughout my relationship history and lifetime. And I’ll have to review the Cliff Fightback event because I know when I did read it, I didn’t feel like I had experienced one of these, though I could be wrong. It’s good that HG clarifies the difference between the two due to the confusion surrounding them.

            I think your Super element shines through in many actions you have taken in the past, AV. You’ve obviously stood your ground on a number of occasions and confronted events as they were happening. A lot of people would find themselves unable, or even unwilling, to do that. It takes a lot of guts and a real sense of fortitude, too. I spoke to Leela the other day about the ‘refining fires’ of the LOCE, and I think sometimes that what they are for empaths. The LOCE hones us in our empathy, and our Schools and Cadres are born out of that refining fire, at least those of us unfortunate enough to have experienced the lack of control environment. It’s that damn silver lining that is so often spoken of and which it is so difficult to have any appreciation of at times.

            Which means I’ve probably talked myself around in a circle here as I go from a sense of regret to an appreciation of benefit all coming out of our experiences <3

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Yes, I heard HG allude to the fact that there was more to draw from Gabby’s upbringing. She was still so young, I don’t think she really had a chance to see the abuse for herself. She hadn’t yet seen enough of the world. Hooked up to her family then hooked up to him and his family, not enough life experience to even suspect that what she was putting up with wasn’t normal.

            We’ve all been ensnared here. We found our way to this blog because we knew that the situations we were in just weren’t right. Gabby wouldn’t even have had the opportunity to recognise that, let alone do something about it. Just a nice girl. They only go for the nice ones don’t they? Arseholes.

          13. Leigh says:

            TS, ditto, they are arseholes! That’s why I think its such a great idea that Mr. Tudor is on Tik Tok. He can reach the younger generation that way.

            Mr. Tudor, if I may make a suggestion. Reels on Facebook and Instagram might be another avenue to reach people. I love Reels.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the suggestion, Leigh.

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Thank you for your response and for understanding where I was going with mine. Yes, it really is a difficult balance to strike when our natural way of being is so open and non judgemental, comparatively at least.

            I think the blog is really helpful in this context. Often ideas and opinions are shared here and they can differ quite substantially, but nine times out of ten I can see where those thoughts and opinions originate. They feel genuine and from a good place even when they might be in contrast to mine. Over time I think it helps for us to consider those views, the way they are put forward and contrast them with behaviours we have witnessed and experienced with the various narcissists in our lives. I think in this way red flags might become more obvious and have us saying, “No actually, there is no excuse for that.” It’s just plain selfish.” or It feels restrictive, invasive, it feels controlling.” I don’t mean with regards to the subject matter of this thread necessarily, just in general terms. Benefit of the doubt is a real tough one for us because we switch places with people so often, as you say, the very nature of our empathy. I have to accept that sometimes I will make the wrong call too. On balance though I think those first instincts, those first impressions, warrant our attention, even if it’s then to hang back and look for more evidence in support of them.

            I think often the narcissist mimics the empathy seamlessly but the timing is off. I agree, some people would see the tattoos as a genuine gesture of remembrance. If that was done privately, months down the line, it might be, but at that point, in all of the confusion, at the height of your agony, you choose to go as a group to get tattoos and then get photographed? Timing. The timing is off because the empathy is absent, so the gestures fall out of sync with what a person, even a normal with empathy would naturally do. Timing of gestures and behaviours is one to watch. Timing is completely off in the lovebombing phase too. Lovely gestures but too many, too soon, in quick succession and out of sync, off the pace.

            This series of videos is extremely instructive because the people involved have been in the public eye, enabling us to watch them, form opinions and contrast them with our own behaviours. HG is so very well researched too, so his observations are water tight. Difficult to watch the story unfold but if we push through I think these videos open lots of avenues for consideration and real learning. I’m very glad HG elected to follow Gabby’s story and analyse exactly what it is we are seeing.

            Feels like ages since we spoke for some reason, it’s nice to ‘hear’ your voice. 😘xx

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS 🙂

            It does feel like ages since we spoke, and I always look forward to touching base again <3 It's nice to 'hear' your voice, too xox

            Reflecting on your comment, I do recall one girl who I immediately sensed something off about in the context of hanging back to wait and see what would happen. It can be hard to explain what sets the alarm bells ringing, but there was an element of 'anything you can do I can do better' with her. That's probably the best way to explain it. I had the uncanny feeling she was trying to 'take my place', and specifically targeted me and my friendships in order to do that. It was an insidious thing, done by stealth, and I nicknamed her "the spider"! It was little things that made me aware, elements of one upmanship. I've mentioned before I am left handed and she, apparently, was left handed, too. Great. No big deal. Then I had a very strange experience where I felt like she was trying to 'out left hand' me … and I know that's going to sound really odd, but it's true. It was like it was a competition, where she had to be more left handed than me as that was one of the things that made me stand out. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how subtle it was and how under the radar she flew. I don't know if you've ever sensed competition from another when there was no call for it and somehow it just comes up on your radar as you're flying along. I had no issues until she showed up, and then I was overwhelmed with various issues as she made a bid to take over. At one point, very early on, she tried to befriend me, but I didn't allow it. I don't know how I sensed the danger, but as subtle as it was it still felt overwhelming. She dropped many hints along the way that she was not only narcissistic, but also likely sociopathic. It's amazing how some of these people can present the facts of who and what they are without anyone batting an eyelid. She would tell 'humourous' stories about things she had done and people wouldn't see the red flags of the very dark nature that lay underneath.

            Anyway, that was a defining moment for me as an example of knowing someone was 'off' before knowing about narcissism. I knew I did not want to be her friend and considered her potentially dangerous, but she managed to 'hide' well. The subtle 'encroachment' was the thing that alerted me. It wasn't just about wanting to be a friend and making new friends, it was much more than that. She wanted to take over. I don't know how to explain the awareness that someone has an agenda, but it's a very real experience as you sense yourself being isolated from others, too. Thankfully, I've moved on from that experience.

            I'm with you on the timing thing, and how that can be something to watch out for in terms of red flags. That tattoo thing and its timing is very off, and the way you've explained it makes sense. It's a bit like scavengers over a dead body and seeing how much mileage can be gotten out of the tragic event for the purposes of fuel, etc. Even in death Gabby can't be at peace as narcissism continues to rear its ugly head. Her death is not about her, but what others can obtain on the basis of that. So sad.

            HG's videos have been very instructive and enlightening in the context of this tragedy. And I agree, reading other people's thoughts and perspectives really does help to clarify things we may not see the first time round. I honestly had not focused on her parent's at all in the beginning and yet huge red flags are flying now! Which is where it helps to get other's feedback on what we are seeing and experiencing at times. They can look at it either from a distance, or another perspective which may engage a different aspect of the same situation. That is definitely what I find here. I may not have looked at something from a certain angle and someone else is able to highlight what I have missed. I guess as empaths we're all attuned a little differently, and I think you are very much in tune with how a parent would act in the circumstances of this case. Everything seemed off about their behaviour to you. There is nothing I would disagree on in that respect, I just wasn't 'looking' at them. I cast my eye in another direction which also felt totally off and was crying out for an explanation. Funny the things we land on as we try to make sense of certain situations. There are so many angles to this case it would be hard for anyone to be over them all, except HG. On that basis, I would also like to hear more about the various elements of this case as it continues to unfold.

            As always, appreciate your thoughtful and enlightening comments as we navigate the difficult subject matter here xox

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Totally agree. Love it or loathe it, TikTok has a far younger age profile than many other platforms. Narcissists don’t suddenly emerge fully formed at age 30. They are circulating and impacting others far sooner. In terms of awareness, it’s crucial that HG reaches that younger audience. As was the case with Gabby Petito, the younger section of the population are amongst the most vulnerable out there.


      4. lickemtomorrow says:

        Leigh, it does seem like an attention grab, and at the same time perhaps he wanted to honour his daughter’s memory as fully as possible. He understood people were invested in the case, and Brian has still not been found. He may have wanted to keep it front and centre in the public’s mind and honour his daughter at the same time, while also challenging Brian’s parent’s who have been about as unhelpful as they could be up to this point. There’s a part of me that would want to get in the face of people who had wounded my so egregiously. Just thinking there could be a number of factors influencing the family and I think Gabby deserves recognition. He also helped to raise awareness of bad relationships and the need to leave them, which can only be a positive in the long run. I think people around the world have joined this family in their grief and, though I didn’t attempt to watch the service, I think allowing the concerned public to take part was not completely remiss.

        I see Dog the Bounty Hunter has also made an appearance! I used to love his show and watched it with my children when they were younger. Now I kind of shake my head and wonder why? I was heartbroken to hear about Beth’s ilness and death, but Dog has moved on already. Narcissist much? I’d love to know HG’s thoughts on that one! But, Dog is my guy for finding people who don’t want to be found. I really hope he can turn up some leads and apparently he’s had lots of tips. Not sure the police will be happy about his involvement, but I think he’s promised to hand any information on. It’s not like Brian’s got a literal ‘bounty’ on his head, at least not yet.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Dog made a tit of himself knocking at the door and expecting them to answer because “it is me”. Some exciting footage of him standing and knocking and knocking and knocking.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            HG, I appreciate and know you work really hard and wonder if you’d consider doing an analysis on either sets of Gabby’s and Brian’s parents – to highlight further insights of narcissism via the parents using your expertise on the subject? Much appreciation and thanks in advance.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It is on the list but whether time will allow is another matter.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Yes, HG, I totally understand. I realise that there may be more information to come forward in relation to this whole case where this family is concerned. There is no rush at all. Thank you for your response and I really look forward to reading it when it arrives 🙂

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, I would have to agree. He did look like a tit, and no doubt it was all for show … definitely trying to up his profile. But, Dog gets his man, or woman, (that’s if reality TV can be relied upon) and inspires a certain amount of confidence. He’s like a dog with a bone, doesn’t let go. Not sure it would put the fear of God into Brian if he knew Dog was on his trail, but I’m glad to see him joining the search. Partly because the police seem to have let Brian slip through their fingers. In all honesty he could be anywhere by now and his guilt, from my perspective, is guaranteed. What a chicken shit.

          5. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi HG…i thought that too of Dog. I’m surprised the authorities are allowing him to be involved the way he is.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            C, well, we know why don’t we? 😉

        2. Leigh says:

          LET, this is why I love this blog. We all have different views. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Its not something I would do but I could certainly see why her father would want to keep this in the public eye. At least until Brian is caught.

          You say, “There’s a part of me that would want to get in the face of people who had wounded my so egregiously.” I could definitely agree with that. I’d want to get in there face too. I’d want to call Brian’s parents out on not being helpful.

          I hope Dog the Bounty Hunter finds Brian and hope he gets what he deserves.

          1. BC30 says:

            I would have wanted it to be public to aid in bringing someone to justice and finding my loved one, but I would be inconsolable. I would not have been able to be in the public eye.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I would have to agree. It’s not something I would do either, and he seems to have taken advantage of the enormous public interest in the case. It is a platform, but if it’s a platform that helps to find this turd, regardless of the father’s own status as a narcissist or not, then I hope it works.

            The fact condolences were passed on by Brian’s family’s solicitor after Gabby’s body was found was just about as insincere as it can get. Thankfully that was thrown back in their face by the family. What a provocation. It was done for show, in my opinion, and they would have done better just to keep their mouths shut. They’ve done nothing but cover for their son and act as his enabler. Maybe HG could take a look at this behaviour as well, there are so many angles to this story. Possibility of parental narcissists on both sides, enabling criminal activity, overt public displays of grief, etc.

            In the midst of it all a young woman is dead. It’s heartbreaking to think she had to die for so much of this to come to light, including the need for law enforcement to become better informed.

        3. Asp Emp says:

          LET, I read what you had to say about the father. I understand where you are coming from. At the same time, could it be an instinctual ‘deflection’ on his part?

          I looked at some photos from various sources and in one of them, I could see (in my perspective), how chilling his eyes looked. I was not perturbed by that in itself. Then I wondered, just wondered, if he has anything to hide?

          Oh, yeah, I recall Dog the Bounty Hunter too.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, you raise more interesting points about Gabby’s father. I’ve just offered up some thoughts to TS and agree with others suspicions that we are dealing with more than one narcissist in this scenario, and there are likely parental narcissists on both sides. What a nightmare! For Gabby especially. You might be interested to read my further comment about her friend Rose as well. What I am sensing is a whole cluster of narcs feeding off her and her inability to see what she is entangled with. This is part of the consequence of having a parental narcissist, as many of us can testify. It’s all we know. To us all that ‘drama’ feels familiar and even necessary. This is what love is – the ups and downs, highs and lows, etc. We lack boundaries, insight, knowledge, understanding. It can take so long and so many bad experiences to finally help us realize. But with so many narcissists feeding off her, I’d say Gabby had little chance of escape without a serious intervention, and it’s a shame that one opportunity with law enforcement was the one that passed her by 🙁 Taking the blame for the actions of the narcissist can have dire consequences, but I know from my own experience we make excuses for them, diminish their responsibility, give them leeway to continue with their behaviour. I doubt I would have done any differently in Gabby’s situation. I likely wouldn’t have stood up for myself either and played down my injury to enable the blame shifting to occur. It’s what we do, and it needs to stop. I just wish it could have stopped for her sooner.

          2. Leigh says:

            I agree it needs to stop. That’s why Mr. Tudors work is so important. More people need to be made aware of the seriousness of narcissism.

    3. A Victor says:

      Oh wow! My boss mentioned her dad this morning, wondering how he could be keeping it so together!! Is he a narcissist too? That would help account for her falling prey to this behavior possibly, though I know empaths from good homes are ensnared also. Your observation about the clasped hands is good, I mentioned that in relation to my ex but didn’t take it further, thank you for that. And where HG mentions the eyes darting back and forth, that I have seen also. And, Brian has the dead eyes, this makes me queasy now.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        AV, considering the fact that Gabby was very young, she appeared to have suffered years of repeated abuse – hence her overall demeanor when conversing with the police. That ‘abuse’ did not originally start with Brian. It was from childhood, I would suggest. There is a step-father in the picture too……so there is a lot of ‘mitigating circumstances’ that took place a long time before she died. I don’t know if the father has ‘dampened’ emotional empathy or a lack of it. Yes, I noticed the ‘eyes’ too……I was watching…..

        1. A Victor says:

          Yes, I picked up on the step father also. Who knows, HG will explain it I imagine. I hope. And I do agree she was a victim prior to Brian.

      2. Leigh says:

        AV, something doesn’t quite seem right. Im definitely leaning towards her father being a narcissist as well.

    4. lickemtomorrow says:

      Does the hand holding in front of the narc, or the ‘fig leaf’ pose remind you of a child? That just came to my mind. The way a naughty child might present when they know they are about to get into trouble for something. And what is it about protecting the genitals? Perhaps one of our most vulnerable parts, and in terms of being ‘seen’ it is the place we consider most private. Hiding from yourself takes on a whole new meaning in that context. I wonder what the body language experts would say about that? I don’t think I’ve heard anything about it so far, but I’ll be interested to see if it comes up.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, thank you for your views (out-loud-thoughts). Interesting to read 🙂 I know what you mean RE: the child. Yes, to a degree, it is possibly indirectly what you have said – a) guilt, b) protection. I would suggest it is more instinctual as a child, and as an adult, either an unaware narcissist, or someone with the more vulnerable “conditions” ie maybe Aspergers, sometimes, maybe even an ACON?

        I can assure you that I have never been kicked in the balls 😉

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Haha, AspEmp 😛 You’ve definitely got ‘balls’ 😉

          I think the body language thing is instinctual, which is what can make it such a giveaway. These are the things we don’t think about and are often beyond other people’s perceptions as well. Only an expert would know what to look for, and there are moments where we can read too much into things. It can be very hard to tell. I tend to rely on my instincts which create an overall impression and body language may come into that, but not some of the subtleties that are noticed by experts.

          One video I watched by a body language expert on a different case highlighted a very slight movement of a facial muscle which indicated an element of contempt. I had to watch it a few times to understand how he came to that conclusion. It really was very subtle and not something that would be noticed unless you were studying the footage of the interview closely. It could easily pass unnoticed otherwise.

          I don’t doubt we all display various elements of body language without any kind of awareness. Like leaning in when we are really listening to someone. Leaning away when we feel the need to distance ourselves. We won’t even be consciously aware of it, our body just reacts to the circumstances. It is a fascinating area of study and even more interesting when experts clash, or disagree, on what certain aspects mean. I guess it is up to us to decide who we agree with in the end.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I’ve just seen your comment…..ok, I am replying now 🙂

            I agree with the body language and the instinctual. You made me laugh saying “there are moments where we can read too much into things” (especially when they adopt the fig leaf stance 😉 ), I also agree though. Maybe I should share here, it is something that people may notice (or not), there is a sort of shuffling of the feet (almost like, ah, fk, I’ve been rumbled – it occurs either when there is nervousness or excitement – I have observed this from male adults, females do not do it as much, if at all). Hmmm. I wonder. I have referred it as the ‘male aspie dance’. Having said that, females do the ‘dance’ too, when caught on the hop (nervousness), or can sometimes appear overboard with their excitement, like a puppy yapping…..(FFS).

            The gesturing by the hands / arms movement could be considered further ‘indicators’ of the person’s thinking (even if from instinctual aspect).

            It is actually quite surprising how much a Deaf person can ‘pick up’ from observing the body language of other people, even the shortest time frame of such – instants, can be observed. LOL. Especially during a ‘404’ moment of a narcissist.

            So, I have wondered whether the narcissist holding their hands is a way of instinctively asserting their control of themselves, as to not ‘reveal’ too much without realising why ? Like you say, it can be interpreted in different ways by people.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, always interesting to read your comments, and I want to express an appreciation of the need for deaf people, or people with hearing difficulties, to find a variety of ways to communicate with others, and while they may not be able to pick up subtleties in tone, etc, in speech, they could more accurately discern body language when communicating. Good point about the shuffling feet and arm gestures. The shuffling feet once again reminds me of children, and hanging the head in shame, which is where I think a combination of these things could indicate what’s really going on. Interesting about the ‘male aspie dance’. My middle daughter’s boyfriend has Asperger’s and it’s been interesting getting to know and understand the impact of that on him and their relationship. For the most part it’s been positive and she is my huge empath so no doubt lending her understanding goes a long way, too <3

            Could the "instinctively asserting their control of themselves, as to not 'reveal' too much" also be a little like hiding from themselves (which I mentioned earlier)? In terms of interpretation that's two different ways to look at it which could still lead us along the same path 🙂

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your words of consideration which show understanding communication difficulties for Deaf people.

            RE: the shuffling of feet in children, they also may do this when they need to use the bathroom but the situation may cause an issue with them putting the message across – quite a number of ‘variations’ in the similar ‘body language’, so I would look for further ‘clues’ before prompting by asking a couple of questions.

            Ah, someone with Aspergers? I was given a book around 20 years ago but I found it useful / interesting, ‘Loving Mr Spock’ by Barbara Jacobs. It’s a really good source to find information to understanding Aspergers, I would recommend it to anyone who may need it.

            Why was I given this book? It was part of a way of my sister explaining to me that I have Aspergers and that my father had it too (I got a formal diagnosis 15 years later! – forced by ‘circumstances’).

            RE: your last paragraph. Interesting. I would be inclined to agree with you on what you suggest here. Is it a narcissist? Is it Aspergers? Hence my saying earlier – look for further ‘clues’ in the body language, and the words they say. Why did I suggest Aspergers? Let’s say a guy who likes a girl, will either be all shy, or overly ‘loud’ (to hide their true ‘feelings’). I have seen this, hence why people can get the wrong ‘impression’ when it comes to ‘analysing’ someone (trying to work them out) yet lacks the knowledge of such ‘conditions’.

            When you say “In terms of interpretation that’s two different ways to look at it which could still lead us along the same path” – it does depend on which ‘lens’ is being ‘used’ to look through. I would, therefore, suggest that there are many ways of looking ‘in terms of interpretation’.

            Adding to that, I would suggest Aspergers (whether aware of it, or not) can be instinctively ‘drawn’ to narcissists, maybe empaths too and vice versa.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, AspEmp, for the book recommendation <3 My daughter has been dating this young man for a while and I've always accepted he has his own way about him, which I don't make judgements about, and at some very meaningful level note that he is the yin to her yang 😉 She even expressed those thoughts to me again yesterday when she talked about how much she appreciates his logical and no nonsense approach to finances, which helps an element of her disorganization when it comes to such things. I could say a lot more, but the bottom line is she accepts him and vice versa. Bingo!

            I appreciate you sharing about how your own diagnosis came about, and it can often take years before people finally get the relief of having a diagnosis for difficulties they have been experiencing because an issue went unrecognized. A bit like narcissism, it must be an 'aha' moment where the pieces finally begin to fit together, and you have an explanation for your life which releases you from so much of the burden – at least in terms of understanding. That also has to be helpful going forward as the pitfalls become a lot clearer. I think this is the first time I've seen you mention your father also had Asperger's. That must cause you to feel even more closely connected to him in some ways. I imagine it took some courage on your sister's part to share that book with you, but no doubt it has helped to strengthen your bond as well. I hope so.

            I also appreciate the point you raise about underlying conditions when it comes to looking at behaviours and interpreting them. False impressions could certainly be created if you didn't have full insight into a number of conditions which could alter the 'read' on body language. That is a very important point to consider.

            I'm curious to know why you think folks diagnosed with Asperger's would be more likely to be drawn to either narcissists or empaths, both of those being at opposite ends of the scale when it comes to their nature. I'll look forward to any further thoughts, AspEmp, and the book you mention might just be a stocking filler for the season ahead. Thanks again xo

            Oh, I did mean to mention a book I read a few years ago which also highlighted the issue of Asperger's – The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time. At the time, I thought it was very beneficial to understanding how the mind of somebody with Asperger's might experience and interprit events.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your response. It is really heartening to read what you say about your daughter and his relationship and your accepting approach to it too. Aspies can make really good partners, as long as the understanding is present, and more importantly, accepted, so that they can fit in. Kudos to you and your daughter (and him also).

            I have stressed to people that they did not need to obtain a formal diagnosis unless they felt it would assist them, should the need arise. As long as they understood themselves, accepted themselves and were not made to feel different because of the Aspergers. I felt I needed to obtain a formal diagnosis because of people I worked with were the ones who did not always accept me as an individual. That Lesser and another ?MRN boss were surprised when I told them. Yet neither of them did not apologise for his treatment of me. These conversations took place a few years ago. The fact I had to put myself through the official diagnostic route to prove ‘myself’ to other people is appalling. Just like forced therapy.

            My father was never diagnosed as such but we both had many similarities. So his passing was more traumatic on my part.

            My sister and I have not spoken in some time. She and I were similar in some ways. But. She has quite a high level of narcissistic traits ie entitlement, boundary (invading my private files when I was at work, stealing some stuff from my house while I was at work – doing these before leaving UK)……the shocking way she spoke to her older son when he was around 3 years old…..quite a number of things… ET is rising as I type this…..I would not have dreamed of doing anything like that to her, or anyone for that matter. There was an evidential show of ‘pity-play’ in a communication that was passed onto me via a relative, which annoyed me at the time……I am not going down the route of questioning whether she is or not a narcissist. That in itself does not bother me either way. All I can say is, that she spent too much time with muvver.

            LET, you asked why I would suggest that Aspies being drawn to narcissists & empaths the like. Maybe the book can give further insight. With you having obtained the knowledge about narcissists and empaths, I think reading this book will ‘plug the gaps’ so to speak.

            I would say that there are some similarities in the behaviours / thought patterns, hence why I used to question about my being a narcissist or not (laughing about it now).

            Thank you for the title of the book you have mentioned, I have noted that, with interest to the mention of Sherlock Holmes (I enjoyed the tv series / films)…..

            You reminded me of another book, written by a Deaf man, Henry Kisor ‘What Pig Outdoors?’. It is very funny. My sister never returned it! He write about why he behaved in the way he did, giving insights into Deaf people.

            Thank you for your comment, it was so good to read 🙂

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thanks for sharing more from your perspective, and I agree it’s unfortunate that people often can’t get the support they require without a formal diagnosis. Otherwise, the effect is being put through the mill without any comeback. Either way you’re being put through the mill in that sense. It is disheartening to think the understanding can’t exist any other way, at least officially. And it makes me cross to think of what you went through at your work with what appears to be little understanding after your diagnosis as well. Never expect an apology from a narcissist, or only an insincere one at the end of the day. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

            In the end I’m not sure when my daughter’s boyfriend got his diagnosis, it would probably go back a few years, but he’s like the ‘quiet man’ 🙂 You could call it socially awkward, but I don’t doubt he’s taking things in just like the rest of us, and processing them in his own way. I figure the best thing we can do is just be ourselves. He’s not ‘offensive’ in any way, or that might be better said as he’s ‘respectful’, and has been a great support to my daughter in a number of ways. She told me one story about when he was at secondary school and his parent’s attended the usual parent-teacher meetings where it was discovered that the teacher thought his surname was his first name … she had been calling him that all year … and he’d never bothered to correct her. In many ways he is just happy to fly under the radar, and he definitely flew under hers!

            I can imagine your Dad’s passing was more traumatic based on what you shared, needless to say you were quite young at the time as well. Such a combination of things to make you particularly vulnerable at the time. I didn’t realize your relationship with your sister was so tense, so apologies for any upset I may have caused there 🙁 I don’t know if she gained some kind of Golden Child status with your mother, but an element of her spending more time with your mother has obviously had an impact on her. That must have felt like a real violation when she accessed your private space and worse again that she took what belonged to you. It sounds like there’s some physical distance between you now as well which maybe works for you. Family relationships can be really tough when you’re coming from a family dominated by a narcissist. Their desire to divide and conquer is ever present, and sometimes it never goes away. By the time they’re gone, the damage has often already been done.

            I had picked up that some of the behaviours of those with Asperger’s might be misinterpreted to align more closely with narcissists, so when I get that book I’ll be sure to take a look as well when I get the chance. The other book you mention also sounds interesting and I’ve never heard of that one. If I get a chance I’ll look it up, too.

            Appreciate you sharing more of your story, AspEmp xo

          7. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp,
            Your paragraph about Spock may have just helped me make sense out of your “lateral” thinking! I love Spock, always have, he always made the most sense to me. And I believe he was a “lateral” thinker. Please let me know if I’m on the right track…

          8. Asp Emp says:

            AV, Spock is a fictional character of Star Trek but I understand what you mean. My lateral thinking can be seen in many of my comments on this blog…..which may appear illogical to some, logical to others. That is partly why I love this blog, I can just write and not have to think obsessively about anything I write (thank you, HG X). Aspies are considered to be highly logical thinkers, some can be obsessively logical. The book I mentioned has several aspects to it ie there is an AQ Test within it, it talks about employment, various sections.

          9. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I just found this comment, so sorry! I will check out that book. Also, I have picked up on your lateral thinking here and there, since you explained it to me. It is a different and useful way of thinking, though I am just beginning to think of it. I can practice with the exercise to improve, with a box. Thank you for your reply.

  11. A Victor says:

    I’m guessing he’s a Lower Mid Range. The way he clasps his hands in front of himself is chilling to me. It was even when I watched this a couple of days ago, my ex did that identically and often in stressful (to him) situations. This breakdown is so educational and well done, thank you HG.

    1. WhoCares says:

      AV – I think he is LMRN too!

      1. Z - zwartbolleke says:

        Well I read a lot of you thinking LMR.
        I am not sure.
        I didn’t expect a LMR to hold the facade that good and that long and with that much of succes as Laundrie did.
        Like if I imagine my mother, the hatred towards the police would be palpable, it would not be such a splendid show of Mr/Ms Nice-guy/Nicelady, there would have been too many challenges to control to maintain that facade.
        The strength of the facade makes me place him higher, like in team anodyne.

        Now go the forum quickly: there is a surprise waiting 😉, finally!

        1. A Victor says:

          Z – zwartbolleke,
          Your assessment makes sense to me.

          I had thought he is so much like one of my narcs in the absolute fury that must’ve caused him to kill her in the end, and also my narc would’ve been in their glory collecting fuel in that instance, a LMR. What’s funny is that my narc, in this situation, would seem largely unconcerned about their facade slipping, once control had been obtained, as in comparison to the MMRA would’ve made it look effortless.

          But, Laundrie’s physical demeanor matched much better with another of my narcs who is a very anodyne MMRA. This narc of mine would’ve been more concerned about maintaining the facade, would’ve been actively working at it, more like Laundrie was.

          I didn’t think Laundrie was smart enough to be a UMR but one of the YT videos may have pointed in that direction.

          The fact that there was any facade at all was what made me even go with mid-range, I would’ve guessed a lesser without the facade.

          It will be interesting to find out, if HG ever tells us! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, good to consider.

          1. A Victor says:

            So his facade did slip, as the one I know would also. I didn’t put that together. But his facade and my LMR’s were similar, that goofy, get them to laugh, almost stupid act that sucks people in to think they’re innocent, how could they not be, so innocent it appears.

            And throttling is common for the LMR to use? Interesting as I also experienced that with mine. It is one of the most violent acts that can happen to another, trying to literally choke the life out of the person, it just is so violent and hateful and rageful. It was so hard to hear you describe it yesterday in the video, of Brian Laundrie doing it to Gabby Petito. My heart broke for her again, how terrified she must have been, how helpless.

            Thank you for these analysis, they have really helped the learning, leaps and bounds.

    2. Eternity says:

      A Victor, he may be a LMR because there is a bit of the facade there. I just can’t believe these Police Officers having conversation with him. One in particular about his wife’s anxiety and her medication. Made me so mad ! We are always the ones who are crazy right? Now look at the one who is crazy now .

      1. Nadège says:

        I was shocked by the behavior of the police officer too. Why was he babbling about his wife and her personal problems? That was so unnecessary and uncalled for. The policeman didn’t know Brian, he had no idea of the REAL background of Brian’s troubles with Gabby, so why on earth did he mention his wife? To seem nice? To be friendly and relatable? Maybe Brian’s narcissism had that effect on him?

        1. A Victor says:

          Nadege, I thought that was odd too, and highly unprofessional.

        2. Asp Emp says:

          N, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Maybe you have answered your own questions here? You have shared an ‘example’ of what I would class as ‘mirroring’, likened to “you are not the only one with ‘issues’ and mine are ‘worse’ than yours”, similar to HG’s ‘Empath’s Riposte Grenades – # 5. Jim has one only his is better’. In my view, that is Narcspeak.

          Having said that, I know of a specific doctor who did exactly the same thing on a number of occasions, so basically that doctor was not really listening to the patient’s concerns – it was not a social chit-chat, cup of tea ‘situation’!

          So, in saying that, there are some professions where I now strongly feel that narcissists should not be working in. After all there are some people with other ‘conditions’ that are considered “not suitable” for some fields of work, so why this same ‘example’ cannot be applied to those with narcissism too? They’d have to be ‘identified’ first, of course.

  12. lickemtomorrow says:

    He provoked her. It’s her van and he takes the keys. That is a provocation. Telling her to calm down when he has instigated the upset is a provocation. These officers are buying the ‘excuse’ around the old hat notion that women are the hysterical or emotional ones and men are the ones who have to somehow grin and bear it. They are not taking into account the level of provocation in taking her keys and telling her to calm down. That is belittling in itself. Why is she upset? Brian claims it’s because he is not clean, or his feet are dirty. Oh man, how many guys have had their wives and girlfriends complain about similar issues? It’s easy for the officers to buy into what Brian is selling.

    “You pushed her to create distance” – officer leading again, feeding into Brian’s narrative and overlaying his own perceptions of the situation.

    I hope a thorough look is taken at this footage and the part the officers unknowingly play in feeding into the narrative Brian is presenting. Another concern I have around it is the fact it will help create an alibi for him down the road – if and when he is caught (if the ‘gators haven’t gotten him already). Some jurors will look at that and accept the officers stance with regard to Brian. It’s like he ended up in a situation where he was just defending himself again. That is what they will think. Or at least how the Defence could portray it. Reasonable doubt? Brian has helped to create plenty and got it all on camera as well. He couldn’t have planned it, but if he did he couldn’t have planned it better.

    Looking forward to further analysis.

    1. A Victor says:

      Oh, it pissed me off so bad when that officer told her she didn’t have any reason to be still crying! I am so looking forward to HG’s analysis going forward, I really hope it includes more on these officers and why they dealt with her the way they did and also how they may be feeling about it now. Are they narcissists too? My boss this morning brought this situation up, I was able to give a nice plug for HG’s analysis, but also he pointed out that officers just go with what they’re told, what they’re seeing in front of them. Not that they’re necessarily bad people, and if so, they probably feel terrible about how this all went down for her, in the end.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        I’m sure the officer’s do feel terrible now about how it all went down in the end, and I don’t blame them for their lack of awareness due to the fact we’ve all been ‘conned’ in the past. They tried to help by separating them, asking questions, offering support. The fact the victim blames themselves will have wrong footed them in some respects. She’s taking the blame. The fact Brian is causing them to identify with his situation, by the mere fact he is also a male, but also offering up the perspective of Gabby needing to ‘calm down’ (which most men will buy into perceiving women as more emotional), is feeding into the narrative of him being the victim. It’s a hugely complex situation, especially when you add in the physical evidence of marks on him, which HG so adequately explained were not ‘offensive’ but ‘defensive’ wounds caused by Gabby, scratches more often being defensive when inflicted on another. That is another subtlety not picked up on at the time. HG has done a really good job of defining a lot of the aspects of this footage to help us understand just how this whole thing went down.

        1. A Victor says:

          LET, Good point! We’ve all been conned, they’re only human, thanks! Yes, I’m sure they feel horrible!!

        2. A Victor says:

          LET, ugh, I’m now watching the second body cam video and it’s so frustrating that these officers didn’t pick up that it was HER van!! And Brian Laundrie says “…she can handle it…” when asked if she can drive that van, of HERS!! Ugh! It is so frustrating to see this! I am soooo excited to hear HG’s rundown soon!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I watched the first eight videos on YT. I started to watch the ninth before stopping a couple of minutes in. The reason for that was the infuriating casual banter going on between Brian and the police officer. I just couldn’t watch it. It made me sick.

            But the further bodycam video finally highlights how Gabby also suffered an injury, which seems to be totally overlooked in the circumstances. No one offers to take photos of her injuries or even look at them more closely. At that point I think she’s already admitted they were fighting, she also appears quite emotional, and Brian has sold them his story of being the ‘victim’. In some ways the decision of who is at fault has already been made.

            I did read the head of that police Department (can’t remember his exact title) has now resigned and there is a big deal being made about how it all went down. Personally, I think the focus needs to be on how easy it can be to misread these situations with personal bias added in, as opposed to blaming the officers for not doing their job. They certainly could have done better, but let it be an educational opportunity going forward. Law enforcement has a shitty job to do most of the time, some of them will be in it for the wrong reason and some will take advantage, too, but I can only imagine some of the situations they have to deal with, the things they have to see, and how difficult that must be. This seeming ‘tiff’ between two lovers is not necessarily going to set off alarm bells in circumstances they also read as a young couple travelling long distances in a cramped space away from family and friends.

            Perception is everything. There is a need to have the ability to read between the lines.

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, if I hadn’t had the same exact experience myself here in MN, I would attribute a lot of the officer’s reactions to the situation to be specific to UT and how women are seen and treated there. I tend to think instead that men in general struggle with women’s emotions and want to make them stop, I know that sounds sexist and it is a very very broad generalization, please don’t take offense anybody. I love men, fwiw. But also, officers are trained to de-escalate situations, I think many times they might try to de-escalate by bringing the woman around, especially if she’s the one who appears to be out of control. Big generalizations, I have dealt with many officers in many different scenarios over the years and the vast majority have been absolutely wonderful to work with. But some do seem to have a problem when there are tears or emotions involved.

            Okay, once on my birthday I got out of a ticket, not intentionally, because I cried when he pulled me over. My kids thought it was hilarious. I may have shared that before, it makes me giggle now.

            I agree that with you that the focus should be on improving, not blaming for what happened. I don’t think those officers did anything wrong, they were just uneducated to the realities of abusive situations. I feel bad for them now, they must feel terrible.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, couldn’t agree with you more. I don’t think it’s ‘sexist’ to point out that men will have a certain perspective on women and their emotions which often comes down to the fact they’re not sure how to handle them (which is why they need to make them stop), and I also believe they are inclined to feel they need to do something to ‘fix’ a situation as a means of being helpful. At least that’s one perspective based on men being from Mars and women being from Venus. It made sense to me.

            I would say the need to de-escalate in these circumstances would be a priority, and interesting you point out that there would be no difference in MN as in UT as to the way it was handled. There’s another bias that could be added in which could also overlay the perspective on a situation. Just because these officers were from Mormon country doesn’t mean that religion was the sole basis for their perspective.

            Untangling as we go.

            I can relate to the story of crying and being let off, but in a slightly different context. Those were genuine tears, too. Thankfully no kids were around to make fun of their mother afterwards, but they do tend to think it’s hilarious when they can take one back to us. Resets the power imbalance, I think.

            I have no doubt the more empathic officers will feel terrible in the situation. In many ways it would have been impossible for them to know the background circumstances leading up to that moment, but better training, due diligence, etc. could have provided a more effective intervention and not just an assumption that relied on Gabby taking the blame and Laundrie excusing his actions, making her the perpetrator and him the victim.

            The Coroner gave a statement around the cause of death which included a comment on her being a victim of domestic violence. Laundrie’s lawyer apparently attempted to counteract that after the statement came out by saying he is only being sought for fraud with regard to her credit card. Nice try. Lawyers can mince words all they want. Nobody with an ounce of sense, or in touch with reality, is going to believe it wasn’t Brian who put his hands around her neck and strangled her to death.

            I can only think the tragic outcome will be of benefit to training law enforcement around the world since the case has gained such a high profile. There is another case in the UK garnering much attention also around the murder of a young woman by a police officer who used his position to deceive her and ultimately bring about her demise. That one is a warning to the public about the misuse or abuse of power. People are now learning what their position is in relation to law enforcement, their rights and responsibilities. I can only imagine that officer was a narcissist and a psychopath, and all roads at this point in time seem to lead us back to narcissism.

            It’s got to garner a higher profile if we’re ever going to see a lessening of its effects.

          4. A Victor says:

            LET, I do “worry” about being PC too much I suppose, men and women are different, that’s just a fact.

            Two of my kids were in the car when I was pulled over that time, my years were also genuine, and they almost couldn’t contain themselves while there officer was at my window! Probably somewhat nerves also, but looking back, it’s is kind of funny.

            I agree about the officers, they were just trying to do their job to the best of their ability, following the letter of the law and so on. As you say, hopefully all law enforcement takes a lesson from this and things improve across the board. Officers are in a very difficult position, trying to ascertain what’s going on, follow their restrictions etc and be human also.

            I haven’t seen the coroner’s statement, out Laundries attorney’s comments either, busy work week and honestly, I’m kind of waiting for HG’s assessment. But we do agree, Laundrie is the one who did it.

            I haven’t heard about the one in the UK, I’ll look it up when I get a minute.

            Thanks for the comment, it’s nice to read your thoughts!

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I think if men and women weren’t different we wouldn’t be here 😉

            What’s the drawcard otherwise? “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” is a book I bought and read for the first time after I became entangled with the last narc. It absolutely made sense of relationships based on the male-female dynamic, unfortunately it also likely prolonged that relationship as I tried to make sense of what was happening. I definitely used it to help ‘excuse’ him on occasion. Trying to understand the differences and interpret them in the light of narcissism only bound me more closely to him. Something else to look out for … how ordinary relationship dynamics cannot be compared to narcissistic ones, or only superficially, and for the most part to our detriment. The idea of Mars and Venus was a backdrop to some of our ‘make up’ conversations, adding a touch of humour to what I now know was very f*cked up situation.

            I haven’t caught up with the latest news on the hunt for Brian Laundrie, but they did take a cadaver dog into the reserve they have been searching, and tape off an area of the reserve, in the last article I read.

            As far as the case in the UK goes, the young woman’s name was Sarah Everard, and if you google her name you will find the details of the case.

            As far as the kids laughter goes, nervous laughter is definitely a thing! I’d say that’s the most likely explanation in the circumstances. I was thinking more along the lines of after the event, when the kids say things like “You should have seen Mum when … ” They do like to tease to gain the ‘upper hand’ at times. Obviously that wasn’t the situation you were describing and it was their way of coping to see their mother upset. Our reactions can be very incongruous at times, especially where stressful events are concerned. Thankfully, you’ve managed to see the funny side, too.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            That should actually say “in the context of narcissism” and not “in the light of narcissism” in the second paragraph … I had no idea he was a narcissist at the time.

          7. A Victor says:

            LET, oh no, I read that book too, trying to make sense out of the situation! It’s one of those things that just made me think I didn’t understand him and I needed to try harder. I’m sure he was loving it, asshole. But yes, you are correct, men and women are different and I am very thankful!! I love men, in general! Haha, your comment made me giggle there! Your experience with the book sounds very similar to mine!

            Yeah, I don’t know about my kids, they never saw me cry, so it probably was pretty odd for them! I just realized that, after their dad left, no tears, not ever really for anything, except when the dog died, I loved that dog. But otherwise, only with that cop. Lol!!! You are likely correct! I never thought about it that much before! Yeah, it’s hilarious now. Thanks for that name, I’ll look her up now.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh, LET,

            Laughing at Leigh getting pulled over and crying. Sorry, I shouldn’t, but I am. So manipulative Leigh!! Haha!

            I was pulled over in TN for not stopping at a three way stop, I gave way instead. The whole gun thing freaked me out if I’m honest, but I was already plotting my approach in the car as they pulled up behind me. I pulled up opposite my own driveway as I was a minute from home, so I had the embarrassment of the neighbours seeing the whole thing. My husband came out and stood on the porch in support, which I found comforting.

            I decided on my usual ‘play dumb’ tactic. The English accent would work in my favour, so I decided on a very apologetic “We don’t have those in England. You are completely right officer, I’m very sorry.” I thought I might throw in a tentative smile and a subtle eyelash flutter to hopefully seal the deal. (yes I’ve been stopped a few times before) I had my plan and thought, ‘ I’m hot to trot here, good to go. ‘ The police officer stepped out of the car. Female police officer. Haha, seriously? For goodness sake!

            I knew I was home and hosed when she said early into the conversation, “I just love your accent.”

            *Game over.* 😎

            I think men do struggle with emotion on the whole, they just aren’t sure what to do with it and I agree often the focus will be on how to fix the problem when really what we are looking for is just to let the frustration or sadness out. Sitting and just listening is often what I’m looking for. When I gave birth I asked my husband to just concentrate on doling out the ice chips, no comforting required just ice chips please! I knew giving him a task would make it easier for him. I did however make the mistake of giving him the tens machine controller. Let’s just say responsibility for that quickly returned to me. I did at least see the funny side. Who starts at max strength and works backwards?!

            I think the police officers were very hot on making sure they were seen to be treating the male victim – as they saw Laundrie – as they would a female victim. That stood out to me. Almost as if they had had that drummed into them. “You must treat both sexes identically.” The fact Gabby was only 110lbs wet through was overlooked, Laundrie’s poorly timed jokes and general jovial demeanour was blatantly out of place, but again overlooked. Those two elements stood out to me the very first time I watched the body cam footage. I then rewatched more carefully. We are very well taught here and sometimes we forget that the education we receive here on the blog and through HG’s videos is not widely available. The police do have a shitty job to do, and in some ways this situation would have looked mild comparatively. I imagine several of those officers must replay that day over and over with a huge amount of regret.


          9. A Victor says:

            TS, your comment here had me in stitches! I too have had the misfortune of female officers…the best laid plans…they have no sympathy! More tickets from 3 or 4 of them than all the male officers combined!

            The time I cried, the tears were absolutely not a manipulation. I was literally heartbroken to be pulled over on my birthday! Lol! I actually felt bad for the officer, he didn’t know what to do!

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I chuckled as I read this 🙂 Your thought processes about the neighbours, how you would approach the scenario with the police officer, the advantage of having an unfamiliar accent which saved you in the end 😛 Girl, you got lucky! The ‘hardware’ could definitely be intimidating, especially if you’re not used to that.

            I note your husband stood on the porch, and I guess that would have been comforting. Perhaps approaching the officers would not be advised, or maybe he knew you could handle it yourself. Either way, it worked out for the best. *Game over* indeed 😉

            Those feminine wiles have been put to good use by most of us I would imagine, and empaths are no different in terms of having he ability to turn on the charm as necessary. It’s something we have in common with narcissists, or forms part of our narcissistic nature, which we sometimes forget and which also has its benefits.

            You’ve hit the nail on the head in terms of women’s expectations when it comes to what we need, which is a listening ear, and what men can likely provide most of the time, which is solutions to the ‘problems’. Ugh! That is a major discombobulation when it comes to relationships.

            Haha to the TENS machine and working his way backwards 😛 I remember them being available when I gave birth, but I never used one. Not sure why, but for anyone who’s ever experienced childbirth they will probably know you can lose a great deal of presence of mind during the experience as your primal instincts kick in. You obviously had enough presence of mind to know he would need something to do. Kudos for that. I’ve actually gotten to the point where I wonder if being present at the birth is actually beneficial for men. Certainly it is for the men who want to be there. Sadly my ex-husband wasn’t one of them. He attended one ante-natal class with me and dropped me off at the hospital to give birth to our first child. He waited to get the call approx. 18 hours later to say all went well. In the interim, I relied on a very patient student midwife to hold my hand and ensure a supply of gas and air while I fought the urge to throw myself out of the hospital window to bring an end to the pain! I’m not sure a TENS machine would have helped. But she was a God send. She didn’t talk, she let me get on with it, and I couldn’t have done it without her. On the second, after dropping me at the hospital my ex-husband sent a friend a few hours later to see how I was doing! He must have been busy … needless to say the third was born post separation. If I was going to do it alone, I was going to do it on my terms and without the sense of abandonment I’d experienced during my first two deliveries. It felt so much better to rid myself of those expectations and not give him the chance to spoil the experience for me again, which is what narcissists do by not supporting you. I think husbands can be supportive, even if they are not present for the birth, and it’s a very individual thing how couples decide to go about that. Matching expectations are vital. It’s such an intense experience.

            Back to the Gabby Petito-Brian Laundrie case, there may well have been an element where the officers training ensured they treat both of them equally, which isn’t remiss, but where a narcissist is involved it complicates the matter further. Their manipulative nature enables them to play the victim – this could go for men or women – so the police are in some ways on the back foot trying to compare stories and look for physical evidence of who is at fault, who is the perpretator and who is the victim. In some ways, I could compare it situations where you have to break up arguments between your children while deciding who is the culprit. You arrive after the fact and then have to sort out who was at fault without having witnessed any of the ‘action’. It’s almost a guaranteee I’m going to assume the child who isn’t upset is the main instigator for that reason alone. How the cops let that get by them I’ll never know. Laundrie was as non-chalant as could be while obviously having injuries, Gabby was hysterical while also harbouring an injury. The report had come in that he had assaulted her, but that was overlooked in the sense that once marks were seen on him, and she was noted to be so emotional, it was easy to come to the conclusion she was the instigator. There was no consideration around the provocation.

            We do forget the information we’ve so fortunately received here is not as readily available to a wider audience. At the same time, some of those elements you and I have mentioned appear obvious. Then again, he’s playing the victim and she’s taking the blame. Was it just easier to accept the narrative being presented? I think some of those officers will replay that day over with a sense of regret due to the outcome. Those who do reget it will realize their mistake and hopefully utilize the experience going forward. Situations with narcissists are never straightforward, unfortunately, xo.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV LET,

            I only just saw your comments, will respond now.

            AV, being stopped on your birthday must have been such a buzz kill! We get one day a year, where it’s supposed to be fun and stress free and you get pulled over! No wonder you were upset. Xx

            LET, your experience of having your first two children is incredibly sad. To just drop you off and leave you to get on with it is callous even by narcissist standards. It sounds very much like you switched in to mother mode and placed all your focus on what needed to be done. Your focus on your baby, not on yourself. It’s horribly sad though when the reality doesn’t measure up to the way you imagined such a life changing experience to go.

            It’s funny that you point out that it’s up to the couple to decide what works best for them, the mother particularly. I said all the way through pregnancy that I would prefer to go it alone. I was worried that the magic would go if he witnessed me giving birth. There’s the vanity right there! I changed my mind a few weeks before the birth though. He was under strict instruction not to be at the business end though haha!

            For me I can honestly say my narcissistic traits came to the fore on the second one. I’m an accommodating person usually but when the nurse told me I wasn’t allowed to be in the position I wanted to be in because the heart rate monitor pads kept falling off and they had to come in as the alarm sounded at the nurses station, I ignored her completely and said that that was an issue for them to sort out, I’m busy having a baby. Haha! I was quiet, no swearing, no yelling, no nothing but I wasn’t about to accommodate anyone either!

            I find it almost impossible to believe that a mother can go through that experience and feel nothing for her baby. From the second you hold them, you would willingly lay down your life if it meant that it would save theirs. It’s unfathomable to me, yet I know HG is telling the truth. There is just nothing there.

            I still think about Gabby. Even though Laundrie has met his demise, I still feel heart sorry for her. I didn’t feel anything about Laundrie. Not “good, I’m glad he’s dead.” Not, “ It’s such a shame two young lives were taken.” I felt absolutely nothing for him, which is odd for me. I agree, those officers must replay and replay, I’m not sure how I would be able to reconcile that traffic stop if it had been me. People working in emergency services must be haunted by what they see and don’t see.


          12. A Victor says:

            No problem TS! I thought you had responded already! 🙂

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, OMG, my experiences were so far off my expectations in that regard when it came to my ex-husband. Maybe that’s where some ‘magical thinking’ comes in, or just plain naievety. I just assumed he would want to be there and hold my hand, and had built my expectations up to align with that assumption. Also, coming from a place where that seems to be the general expectation these days meant it was also a given. A husband should support his wife and vice versa, but in some ways now I accept that can vary. Our first couple of weeks of marriage should have clarified the issue around expectations, but like the empath I am, I kept hoping. Needless to say, I soldiered through, though I never quite learned to temper my expectations. And that’s the thing. There was something that told me I deserved better, and that never went away, even though I tolerated a lot before I got to the point of making the decision to go with that understanding.

            I did have a friend who’s husband wouldn’t touch her for months after their first child was born as he struggled to see her in pain. And that’s the thing. I am of a mind to think some men can feel quite helpless in the circumstances, which for the most part they are, and can’t be the fixers or provide the solutions which they feel they should. That is one perspective, and one I have taken on since the birth of my first two children, but in his case I do believe it was purely a lack of support. He lacked empathy and that was one way it showed.

            I did laugh at you telling your husband he was not allowed down at the ‘business end’ 😛 I also wonder if that was vanity or vulnerability when you thought you didn’t want him to see you in that state. I also had a similar moment during my first labour wondering whether I would actually want anyone, even my husband, to see me like this, but maybe it was because I felt so incredibly vulnerable. You’re at your most vulnerable when you’re giving birth, everything is out of your control in one sense, and that also relates to your issue when having your second … it was important for you to have an element of control re: your movement and labour, so the nurses were just going to have to deal with it. I can relate. It’s the reason I decided to have a natural childbirth on my third. I didn’t like having things attached to me and it did make me feel like I was out of control. Control can also be important to empaths at times, which probably also goes back to the element of LOCE.

            There are a lot of factors that can potentially interfere with forming that immediate bond, but that doesn’t mean it can’t grow. I think past trauma and elements of depression can definitely interfere in the first instance.

            When it comes to Gabby and Brian, I said I had no sympathy for his parents, and I didn’t. No respect, no sympathy. And I’m saying that as a parent. Like you, I also feel nothing for Brian Laundrie. Much like he never felt anything for Gabby. In that sense, what goes around comes around. I can be very hardcore when it comes to these types of incidents. Definitely some black and white thinking aligning with my narcissistic traits. The end result is between him and his maker. I trust in that xox

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m glad you got a chuckle. I think that experience was very much me in full flight. I can be a bossy thing sometimes.
            It really frustrates me that you had that experience spoiled for you. They spoil everything don’t they? If I could rewind and relive those two nights again I would. My friends think I’m nuts, but I just remember how magical it was. I was really proud of my body and what it was able to do. I really wish you could have had the same experience x

            There’s a funny quote about childbirth that sums up part of our discussion. Robbie Williams was being interviewed on British tv. He was asked about witnessing the birth of his children and what he thought of the experience. He answered, “It’s like watching your favourite pub burn down.” That really tickled me. Honest, but funny.

            I wonder if Robbie is a narc. I don’t sense narc from Robbie. Technically he’s in the right industry etc, but I think he’s a normal.

            Interesting you feel the same way about Brian Laundrie and his parents as I do. No sympathy there and I don’t have a problem with that either. I agree, it would be nice to think that he will get what he deserved.


          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thanks for your kind thoughts around my birthing experience <3 I'm so glad you experienced it as a magical moment, and no doubt that helped to increase your sense of bonding. I felt very much alone, which aligned with my life experience in many ways up to that point, so I just accepted that and let my body do its thing. The body is a remarkable thing in that respect. I was fortunate not to have any complications. Leaving before our third child was born was beneficial for me in many ways. I was able to make the birth what I wanted it to be and didn't have any expectations of him (obviously), which meant I couldn't be let down again. The sad part about having these three beautiful children is that he was never invested in any of them, either during the pregnancy, birth or their childhoods, apart from what it could lend to his facade. Ultimately, he's the one who missed out.

            Haha to Robbie William's comment 😛 What an apt description from a man's POV!

            It's the likely point where you go from being the 'whore' to the 'Madonna' in the narcissist's eyes. Maybe that's it, too. I wonder how many narc's resist the moment of childbirth so they can still see you as 'whore'? That thought is kind of out there, and now I'm on a total trajectory, and probably much of it just boils down to a narc's lack of empathy, lack of support on that basis, and also need to be in control. One thing I can say is the narc is definitely not in control in the Delivery Suite!

            I'm not a Robbie William's fan, so a bit clueless as to whether he could be a narc. Not sure I would err on the side of empath either. You could be on the right track with Normal 🙂 I tend to forget about Normals for the most part, since we're empaths here trying to deal with narcissists. The Normals rarely come into it 😛 Although, I have been talking to AspEmp about them again today 🙂

            I'd say a lot of people feel the same way about Laundrie and his parent's. A big part of my issue is with their 'stonewalling' when it came to information being sought about Gabby. They literally tormented her family, who were fortunate in the extreme to find her remains. and the slick dick of a lawyer they hired literally made me sick. I still don't understand how the police were not able to interview Brian based on the lawyer's say so … surely they have a right to question, if not arrest, when someone is under suspicion, regardless of the crime? Is there any police force in the world that isn't able to bring someone in for questioning when they are under suspicion? I am incredulous, especially at the story they mistook his mother for him and that's how he managed to slip through their net. I have a gut feeling Laundrie's father knows people in law enforcement in Florida and that also makes me wonder how true the discovery of his body actually is …

            My conscience does not dictate I should feel sorry for him or for them. Their complete lack of empathy underscores that feeling for me. They likely have no remorse, no sense of guilt, and probably also lack any real emotion over their own son's death. No doubt that now makes life easier for them in some ways. Which sounds like a horrible thing to say, but everything about this case is horrible.

            Not the best note to end on, so I think I'll take my thoughts back to you being in full flight in the Delivery Suite ordering all and sundry to do at they're told 😉 xox

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Robbie Williams is a Narcissist and a buffoon. He’s like a performing chimp.

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, HG. I see you’re not a fan either!

            Thanks for the heads up 🙂

            I do like the circus, though.

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “ Robbie Williams is a narcissist and a buffoon.”

            Hang on, hang on, I didn’t say I was a fan, just that I didn’t sense narcissist. Too formulaic for me in terms of music. A bit like Stock Aitken and Waterman, remember them?

            I think I get distracted by humour. If someone makes me laugh then they get nudged over to the ‘good guy’ corner. You do say humour is a weapon. One for me to watch.

            You gave me a freebie?! You did! You gave me a freebie!

            “Why thank you Sir, don’t mind if I do!”

          19. Alexissmith2016 says:

            HG who do you hate more, JC or Robbie Williams? Or both equally?

          20. HG Tudor says:


          21. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing. I think it is quite apparent, HG (from your ‘roastings’ of him, ah, they were so funny).

          22. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Corden haha – thanks HG

        3. Leigh says:

          If any of the police officers are narcissists, they won’t feel bad. They probably won’t even think about it unless she comes up on their radar. Then at that point, they may show false contrition to assert control but it won’t be genuine guilt.

          I do love your perspective on things LET. You give me hope that there’s good in the world. You can see the good in people. I’m not quite there yet. I used to be able to see the good. Now all I see is the bad.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, Leigh, I would have to agree that if any of the officers are narcs they will not feel bad, due to their lack of empathy, and they will manage to blame shift as necessary. In that sense they probably wouldn’t feel the need to display false contrition – in their minds they are not to blame. Some will need to find ‘excuses’ in their own minds to free themselves from guilt in the situation – those who do feel guilty – but they would not be narcissists and are more likely to express an element of contrition, too. I guess I’ve tried to look at it from a number of perspectives to get an overall impression of what went wrong and how it can be fixed, mainly because Gabby’s death seems so unnecessary in the circumstances. In that sense it’s not helpful to make judgements, which can be easy to do in the circumstances based on emotional thinking and which clouds more effective, or logical, thinking around how to counter the same situation or circumstances going forward.

            I appreciate you saying I give you hope that there’s good in the world and in others, Leigh <3 More often than not, since my last entanglement, I've struggled to see the good at times as well. We've been so thoroughly dunked in the misery of narcissism that it can blind us to there being any good in the world. I feel like I am seeing this on a global scale at the moment which makes it even more overwhelming at times. We can certainly end up in a place where the narcissist has led us that instills a belief there is only doom and gloom because this is the world they also inhabit. It's not a place of happiness or joy, peace or love. It ultimately is a place of despair where there is no hope. It's full of anger and envy, and things which cancel out hope as a possibility and goodness as a reality. This is the effect of the narcissist. Maybe that's a thought to hold onto when all you can see is the bad. The narcissist has overlayed their perspective of the world on our lives, which means it can also be removed xo

          2. Leigh says:

            LET, I agree 100%. It is on a global scale now. There’s very little kindness. So many feel entitled. So many people don’t respect boundaries. Even the people that are empaths, their emotional thinking is so high, they make unhealthy decisions. Its very scary. I still have hope though. I know there are some good people out there still because you and the others on this blog prove that to me every day.

          3. WhoCares says:

            How are things with you Leigh?

          4. Leigh says:

            Hi WhoCares, things are starting to look up. I’m finally starting to see a way out. Things are falling into place. My other daughter did her empath detector and she’s an empath. So that was good news and the gave me renewed hope. Thank you for asking. ❤

          5. WhoCares says:

            “I’m finally starting to see a way out. Things are falling into place.”
            These are beautiful words Leigh, especially that first sentence!
            And I am so happy to hear about your Empath daughter!
            (Personally, I am so so thankful for the Empath’s that I have identified in my personal life.)
            Take care Leigh 💜

    2. Asp Emp says:

      LET, it was good to read your views on this video series. When you are referring to “a thorough look is taken at this footage” – I believe it will be done, as HG has already done so (brilliant job, HG, thank you) – I have a hunch that there will be body language experts that will be asked to give their opinions even before it gets to the courts. I also have a hunch that some further training will be a result of this one case. Quite possibly a ‘review’ of other cases that may not have been made public such as this one……

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Thanks, AspEmp, I’m also appreciating reading other’s points of view as well. Apparently some body language experts have got it wrong already. The one I listened to said ‘narcissist’ right of the bat. I thought that was impressive once HG threw his hat in the ring. HG would be my trusted source to confirm what others might have to say.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LET, than you for your response. Some people learn to read body language from an early age – because the circumstances ‘required’ it. I agree, HG is the trusted source, I find his videos on the body languages very interesting.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            LET,…..’K’ I missed the point!

  13. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Thank you for doing this. Autumn is back and so is HG. These are a few of my favorite things.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Flattery will get you……a reply.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I did it for that. You know me well.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Let’s face it, I can’t live without your Autumns now.

      2. WiserNow says:

        Sweetest Perfection and HG,

        Ah yes . . . “Flattery will get you……a reply.”

        On the other hand, voicing your objection about a horrendous remark like “Suck my dick” is likely to get you:
        – laughed at
        – gaslighting
        – devaluations
        – silent treatments
        – public ostracism

        Van-life and hiking and killers and kittens,
        Smug, smirking psychos and warm woollen mittens
        Brave sexist coppers shaming girlies on whims
        These are a few of my favourite things . . . 🎶

        1. WiserNow says:

          Sweetest Perfection and HG,

          I’m not saying this to be smart or to provoke. Really, I’m not. After watching HG’s analysis of this case, I felt so sad and also a sense of hopelessness that Gabby was murdered and lost her life even though there were a number of men who could have protected her and cared about her safety – her father, Laundrie, the policemen, even Dr Phil.

          It makes me think, what do women have to do to be heard, understood and respected?

          If women object to everyday sexist, insulting language from men, it’s the woman who is ignored or dismissed. The man is considered to be justified, even attractive and ‘sexy’.

          To me, it’s the small everyday things that snowball over time and become normalised until it gets to the point where a distressed, tiny (relatively speaking), anxious young woman is seen to be the ‘abuser’. It gets to the stage where four policemen are so blinded by society’s normalised behaviours that they chat to a would-be killer like he’s a ‘bro’ without one single thought about the man’s crying and distressed girlfriend. She’s alone and distressed and they actually put words in her mouth and say in a flippant way, “do you want me to pass on your good nights and love yous and all that stuff?” ….seriously???!! They don’t have one single, f***ing clue.

          Sorry, but this case makes me angry. Gabby’s death didn’t have to happen.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Wiser Now,
            I just now saw you made a comment addressed to me. WordPress doesn’t notify me of many replies and in some cases I have to check my emails to realize I have missed replies in threads or conversations where I was alluded to. Sorry for my delay. I believe I need to break down my comment above to clarify my intention: 1) my comment to HG expressed my gratitude for doing an analysis of Gabby Pettito’s case for reasons that I didn’t think necessary to display here because it would give out too much of my personal information. It will suffice to say I am really knowledgeable of violence against women, including femicides like Gabby Pettito’s, and found this analysis strongly supportive of my view of the vast majority of these cases in my particular professional arena. Having said that, I also agree wholeheartedly with you in that there is a deep structural system that allows this to happen, which starts in the small things like you say and can escalate to the point of murder; I could make a very long analysis that goes back to the industrial revolution, capitalist and imperialistic economic practices that turned around the whole assignation of gender roles and the view of sex as a commodity that can be bought, sold, or stolen, linked to a sense of relative deprivation and normative masculinity (not to forget the hypocrisy of our society being so horrified by this particular femicide, when there are thousands of Hispanic women, Asian women, Black women, trans women -actually, Black transgender women have the highest percentage of murders in the US-murdered by men every year that are never spoken of)… that it would take forever and would deviate the conversation from the point of narcissism, which is in fact the origin of all this mess. I won’t waste anyone’s time doing that, and I won’t engage into any more comments about this either. You didn’t need to apologize in your comment, and you won’t see me arguing with you about this because I totally agree with you 2) The second part of my super brief comment was just pure flatter to see if HG would be willing to record beautiful readings for us as he has been doing during the past Autumn seasons. I didn’t need to explain much because he immediately knew what I meant, as I knew he would.
            I wasn’t trying to flirt and I never said in my comment that HG was sexy. My comment was a thank you note, and a nice implicit request, nothing more than that.
            But, since you mentioned sexiness, HG’s rendition of “The Tyger” IS the sexiest thing I’ve ever heard. Go listen to it!

          2. A Victor says:

            “HG’s rendition of “The Tyger” IS the sexiest thing I’ve ever heard.” YES! It is perfect!! And amazingly sexy!

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oops you meant “sexist” not sexy. Purely intentional Freudian slip!

        2. HG Tudor says:

          Can’t let it go, can you?

          1. WiserNow says:

            Why should I HG?

            Letting things go turned out well for Gabby Petito didn’t it?

            After watching your analysis, I thought, if only Gabby had stronger narcissistic traits. If only her narcissistic traits of anger or defiance or argumentativeness or selfishness were stronger than her willingness to blame herself, or be polite, or be forgiving or not wanting to make a scene.

            If that was the case, she would have ignored the murdering leech and the ineffectual policemen, driven herself home in her own van, using her own phone and her own money and would still be alive today.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You fail to do so because you fail to see what it demonstrates about you.
            Furthermore, you are in an environment where when the matter is deemed as concluded, it is concluded and your repeated attempts to resurrect closed matters, trying to assert your “I am not taking this lying down” is both disingenuous and contrary to what has been determined.

          3. WiserNow says:

            That’s fair enough. I see your point and I agree and accept your comment regarding the environment I am in. I will work on being less defensive and more thoughtful.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            A logical response. HG approves.

          5. WiserNow says:

            Thank you HG. I appreciate your patience and knowledge very much.

          6. WiserNow says:


            Following on from my initial reply to you about ‘letting things go’, I would like to add something further to my initial comment.

            To clarify, I *can* actually ‘let go’ of a specific remark or comment made to me personally. It’s not a case of holding on to perceived slights or holding a grudge about things said in the past. That is not what I’m referring to here. I am mature enough and thick-skinned enough to see and understand why certain things were said and I can actually forgive and forget. My objection to a sexist remark is not so much that it is an insult to me ‘personally’.

            It’s that sexist and sexually offensive remarks are said in the first place in a way that implies it’s okay and even entertaining to say things like that in a public forum. If that kind of insult is said openly as though it’s ‘normal’, then that normalises such remarks. That aspect is what I object to.

            In the past, I have been in quite a few ‘real-life’ professional situations where sexist, derogatory things were said and done in group situations that included both men and women. In general, the women in those situations did not speak up or say anything because it was ‘easier’ or ‘safer’ to fly under the radar and ‘let it go’.

            The self-protective stance to adopt was to ignore those things or laugh them off or even play along as though it was all fine and there was nothing to complain about. There was even an element in those groups where flirting, sexual behaviours and innuendoes were deliberately used by both men and women and it was all part of a ‘normal’ work environment.

            Then, at the same time, there are TV shows and ‘women’s empowerment’ groups and #metoo spokespeople all brainstorming different ideas to find ways in which women can be shown more respect or men can be ‘educated’ to change their attitudes.

            At what point does that kind of behaviour stop being ‘normal’ and start to be sexist or ‘toxic’? It seems to me that it’s hypocritical to laugh along with it one day as though it’s normal and then call it out as sexist and unacceptable the next.

            That’s what I meant in my comment above this one about ‘letting things go’. I just wanted to clarify this.

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