You Are Not Alone
One is never enough for us. Two or more are required. When we commence our seduction of you and launch those missiles towards you bearing love, passion and desire, we repeatedly tell you that you are the one. You are the only one that we want. All of our life we have waited for this moment to be with the one, you. This singularity of number meets singularity of purpose. One is all that we want. We tell you this, we text you this and we do some repeatedly in order to put you on that pedestal. The world may as well just be populated by you and me. Nobody else matters. All that we want is you and you alone. The effect of such words makes you feel extremely special, revered and worshipped and it feels wonderful doesn’t it? Being the sole recipient of our attention, such wonderful, dedicated and loving attention is uplifting, joyful and magnificent.
Recently a commenter posted a quote from Robert A Heinlein which revolved around kissing. Essentially, this quote referred to the fact that when most people kiss they are not putting their all into it, they have other things on their mind, they might be worrying about work, they know they have to put the rubbish out, they are wondering what is for dinner and as a consequence that person’s kiss is nowhere near as it should be because that person has distractions. The person they are kissing does not have their total attention. There is considerable merit in such a proposition. What we manage to do however is make you think that nobody else matters, that you are the only person we are kissing, have ever kissed and will ever kiss. We make you the centre of our universe and you believe it. Yet the reality is that whilst we exhibit this singularity of attention on you, we have so many other people in mind. Understand that when you are with one of our kind there is never, there is never a time when it is just you and me. There is always you, me and her or him or them. Your dynamic with us is not exclusive. It never is. It is not your sole preserve. You are shared throughout the entirety of your relationship with us, from the beginning until, well forever. I do not necessarily mean that we are engaged in s sexual relationship with someone else when we are with you but the fact is that when you think it is just you and I, there is far more going on that you will realise.
At the outset when I am seducing you, I make you feel like the only girl in the world, however there will be at least two other dynamics ongoing. The first is that I will be embarking on a cruel campaign against your predecessor. I will be considering how next to provoke them and punish them so I am able to draw negative fuel from them. I will undoubtedly tell you about them as I explain how horrible and abusive that person was to me. What you are less likely to know is that I am sending them abusive messages, stalking them and organising various methods of manipulation to keep punishing them.
The second dynamic at the outset is the fact that I may also be working on another prospect as well as you. In the extremely unlikely event that you ever had access to my mobile ‘phone and you looked in the messages you would see something like this.
“Message to You 19:48 – I cannot stop thinking about you. What have you done to me? I love it though. I cannot wait to see you tomorrow even though it is too long to wait for my aching heart.”
“Message to Her 19:50 – I cannot stop thinking about you. What have you done to me? I love it though. I cannot wait to see you tomorrow even though it is too long to wait for my aching heart.”
There may even be,
“Message to Her 2 19:52 – I cannot stop thinking about you. What have you done to me? I love it though. I cannot wait to see you tomorrow even though it is too long to wait for my aching heart.”
Notoriously greedy for fuel and wary of the effects of not having a supply of the same, we will ensure that we have other targeted prospects in hand. You may become the chosen one as my primary source of fuel but the others will not necessarily be discarded. They will be retained as “friends” who rank as high producing secondary appliances, continuing to supply me with fuel. You think you have me to yourself. Of course that is the impression that I will create but you are sharing me with the others who will be kept ready to replace you should you start to fail in your production of fuel.
During the golden period it may seem that there is just you and me but I will be keeping other prospects warm and extracting negative fuel from one or more predecessors in the meanwhile. Then, without warning you find yourself being devalued. You have your suspicions that we are playing away. Indeed, we are as we use these secondary sources that we have kept “warm”. There will be others as we find additional people to draw into our network as we play them off against you. You will find you will be compared to these people, to friends and family and always found to be wanting as we press the devaluation against you. After this horrendous time, we will cast you to one side with a callous discard and somebody else has replaced you. How did that happen so quickly? How were we able to move with unseemly haste and find someone else who we now declare our love for? Easily. They were waiting in the wings all along.
Now discarded you will find you are still involved in the dynamic as we play you against your replacement. We will keep trying to draw negative fuel from you and then suddenly hoover you back and make you the apple of our eye again, as your short-lived replacement is cast aside. A period of vacillation may follow as we lift you up and crash you down. You are sat on one end of a see saw, as you go up, she goes down and vice versa. We stand in the centre, straddling this see saw and gobbling up all the fuel that is pouring from you both.
As our primary source you will always find that there is somebody else involved in the dynamic of our relationship. It does not end there though with the person who is our primary source of fuel. This addition of an extra player in the game happens throughout all our fuel gathering activities. We set family member against family member, our brothers against our sisters, or one parent against another. We treat one child as golden and the other as a pariah as we have them compete for our blessing and affection. We pit one colleague against another as they vie for that promotion which lies in our gift. We have friend fighting against friend in order to spend time with us at the expense of the other. We enter the online realm and have people backbiting, clashing and competing all through a few keystrokes on the keyboard. We can never be satisfied with it being just you and me, we always have to involve others and that involvement cannot be harmonious. There must be competition in order for the fuel to flow. Never think that we are dedicated to just you, our need for fuel does not allow it. There is always someone else despite what we may tell you. If you were ever able to ascertain the full extent of our machinations, schemes and plans you would see so many lines radiating away from us, connecting us to you, to her and to many others, with lines running between the unknowing and knowing until it looks like an extremely complex organogram on the wall of an incident room in a police station.
It can never just be you and me.
There always has to be another.
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57 thoughts on “You Are Not Alone”
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It is absolutely cheating by our standards. It isn’t seen that way by narcissist because of their talent to compartmentalize. That’s how I understand it anyway. They don’t think about Sally when they are with Sue. Thus, in their minds they are not cheating. I kinda get it.
k mac, this is probably a good explanation in terms of looking at it from the narcissist’s perspective. I kinda get it, too. Unfortunately there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to. It doesn’t fit with my understanding or perspective, and in that sense never the twain shall meet. It’s hopeless. They are the exact opposite to us in so many ways. In terms of what could seem complimentary in some respects, with us giving and them taking, this is where the boat really sails for me. The narcissist can compartmentalize all they want, I’m not bargaining with this chip. Of course, I need to know that’s what they are doing.
There is definitely no excuse for it LT. It’s quite amazing. I suppose that’s how serial killers blend in a go undetected. They are convinced themselves!
K mac, was watching a doco about serial killers yesterday. They are a fascinating category, and Ted Bundy got a score of 35 out of a possible 40 on the Hare Psychopathy checklist, which seems to be one of the highest scores recorded since it has been in place. The intrigue with many of them comes about with their sheer ability to ‘hide in plain sight’ and even appear to be upstanding members of the community. We expect them to look like monsters because they are monsters. I’m not sure whether it’s their ability to compartmentalize or a lack of conscience and empathy which allows them to remain unaffected by what they do. Maybe a combination of both.
Three episodes with three serial killers in each was enough for me … I had to take a break from the depravity. If we think the mind of the narcissist is dark and sometimes depraved, the psychopathic serial killer’s mind is the darkest and most depraved.
Interestingly, not all psychopaths are serial killers, but I would hazard a guess that all serial killers are psychopaths.
Fascinating for sure! I recently watched the Bundy Tapes. I watch a lot of true crime. 🤭
k mac, I’ve watched a few programs on Bundy, including the dramatized Netflix movie starring Zac Efron. What was interesting about that was the focus and interplay on the relationship he had in the midst of some of his killings. She had no idea, but you see her reflect close to the end on all the subtle signs which may have been an indicator of his nature during their relationship.
The curiosity to me is why not kill her? What made her ‘special’ or kept her safe? Was it because he had developed a type of relationship with her that kept him from completely objectifying her? How could that happen with someone who scored so high on the psychopathy checklist? This is part of what interests me. Sometimes they let their ‘prey’ go and appear to display an element of conscience which we know (or believe) is not possible. For some it would just be a game, as in a power play, much like God in their minds. They decide who will live or die. Gotcha. The absolute sense of total control must be intoxicating.
Perhaps that young woman was the equivalent of Bundy’s IPPS, he seemed to keep returning to her, and there were hoovers aplenty. At the very end she designed to confront him, and I wasn’t sure she was going to get her answer. I’m also not sure if that was done for the dramatics or if it actually happened. I can imagine how the mother of his child felt after supporting him all that time when she had confront the truth of what he was – a monster.
Questions swirl around Bundy’s childhood and parentage. They do say a DNA test proved his grandfather was not his father, but what was the difficulty in saying who his father was for all those years? I think they came up with a name eventually, but young Ted seems to have been set aside by the GPD from the beginning. The family circumstances were ripe for that to be triggered.
His first breakup seems to have been the catalyst for his murderous spree, and I note he took her back just to dump her after creating a more appealing persona (not to say he wasn’t in fact intelligent and capable – he definitely proved that). That says a lot to me about the element of malice, also present in some narcissists. He could have just cut her off, ignored her, told her he didn’t want anything to do with her, shown off a new girl on his arm. But, he deliberately courted her again to unceremoniously dump her. It reminds me of my ex-husband, calling me back with promises of change only to throw that back in my face. It is an act of humiliation, and one thing I’ve learnt is narcissists love to humiliate. I believe it’s a projection of their own sense of shame.
Anyway, talk of Bundy sent me on a bit of trajectory there, but true crime (as well as fictional crime) is something I dip in an out of as well. I can’t stay there too long as otherwise it impacts too greatly on me x
Hi LET, I recently watched the Bundy movie with Zac Efron also and wondered the same, why did he not kill the woman he lived with? I believe I recall HG saying somewhere here that Bundy was a narcissistic psychopath, therefore he would need an IPPS, or at least an NPPS and also, I think Bundy mostly killed women who were “lower class” by normal societal standards, hookers etc. I felt a connection with the woman he lived with, as my ex had me and did his bad stuff away from me, though not murder that I know of. For some reason, we seem to be put in a different category, at least for a time, I think that Madonna/whore thing is in play here. Had she not called him in, and the relationship had continued, perhaps at some point the tables would have turned. I think it happens when they are confronted with what they are doing, they realize she is on to them and the woman doesn’t realize the dangers of confronting. Another thought I had was that she was the one he decided to play cat and mouse with, for his own entertainment, I felt that way sometimes too. How far could he push things before she said enough. And one other thing, I haven’t heard HG’s classification of Bundy, but I tend to believe he was very high functioning and with a facade, which the woman was part of causing her to be different, maybe making her protected in a sense. He wasn’t violent toward people generally but rather was very charismatic. I don’t think he was popular enough to be an aware narc though, until he was infamous. I love speculating on the schools people fall into, with him, I would guess maybe UMR elite? If he was aware, and some of his calculating leads me toward that possibility, I would guess Middle Greater Elite. He’s going on a list to find out! Good for the learning! I enjoyed reading your thoughts on it.
AV, so interesting to hear your thoughts around this and thanks for sharing them.
In some ways I feel you have been in a unique situation with your ex as I sense you have strong suspicions around him, and what he was capable of as well. This came up in a previous conversation we shared around the ‘bad seed’, I think. What you sense appears to be instinctual and I’d have a tendency to trust my gut feeling around that.
Part of the reason I am saying that is regardless of how well they hide, and how long it might take us to suspect, we’ll often come back to that nagging feeling and how it all adds up when our exposure finally comes to an end. Mustn’t forget, they also have this ‘hypnotic’ element to their nature as well as the narcs ability to hoover.
I remember you talking about a time you were out with your ex-husband and saw a side of him you had never seen before. That was a kind of awakening, but it also may have awakened your sense of danger around him. Enough to warn you off ever thinking about ‘double crossing’ him. Not saying he brought you into that situation deliberately, obviously I have no idea, but just thinking you were right to be cautious around him.
You could be right about the Madonna/Whore element, and interestingly while watching this program on serial killers it was actually mentioned in one of the cases. Now I can’t remember which one, but it’s one of those complexities that exist around narcissists and HG mentions it in his book “Sex and the Narcissist”. There’s a good chance it did come into play in Bundy’s relationship. I actually don’t think he targeted women of a lower social class like some serial killers do who target prostitutes for the most part, often because they are easy prey. Ted Bundy was an opportunistic killer who took women off the street, but not prostitutes. Usually young college age women, much like his first girlriend, and he killed several young women in a dorm in Florida as one of his final acts of depravity after escape. He also pretended to be needy in some way – using a plaster cast on his arm while asking for help, or acted as an authority – some kind of law enforcement, to lure the women on the street. There are so many variations on the theme with Bundy, no wonder it was hard to pin him down. His escapes were pretty miraculous, too. If I had to add it all up, I’d say his intelligence, his eloquence and his ability to charm among other things, plus his Houdini like ability to escape, probably puts him in the Greater category where narcissism is concerned. He rarely let the facade slip, even under duress, but the fact he was caught more than once likely puts him in the Lower category. I see you have put him as Middle Greater Elite, so it would be really interesting to see how HG would categorize him.
It’s the time of year for making lists, AV 🙂 I’d be interested to know the outcome.
LET, you are right, I had the wrong people in mind that he targeted. And I hadn’t thought of him as opportunistic, so that is also interesting. Those two elements give a different perspective. I have only watched that movie, not done a lot of other research on him, I should probably do that. I do appreciate your comments for clarification. The escapes were very interesting, my son mentioned that also, as in how crazy that was!
Middle Greater Elite would probably be fourth on my list from the ones I have mentioned. And, the fact that we are so up in the air, there is nothing really clarifying it, probably lends toward Mid-range more. I think Lesser is out because there was quite a facade. Yes, I am very excited to learn what HG says, but, I need a bunch more people on that list before I can send it!
AV, it took me a while to garner enough people for the first list I sent to HG! I probably sent some he had already informed us about, just like I buy products at times I’ve already bought because I forgot I bought them and didn’t think to double check first 😛
HG, if you don’t mind me asking, is Ted Bundy on any of the lists you’ve done so far?
Which lists are you referring to LET?
HG, I should have been more clear.
The lists which exist in the Knowledge Vault where you tell us if a person is a narcissist or not, including their school and cadre (e.g. “Narcissist or Not?”, “Naughty Forty”).
PS: I’ve just checked both of those as I have them and Bundy is not on them.
Bundy is not on the lists. You would need to use Know The Narcissist.
Thank you, HG. I will make him the first on a new list once I purchase.
That list, yes. The narc bullets lists I have much less trouble filling, those are fun. But the one for learning school and cadre is harder as I don’t want to waste a spot.
I own all the famous narc lists, I don’t believe Bundy is on any of them.
AV, thanks for the heads up 🙂
I didn’t realize there were different types of lists. I did the Narc Bullet one, but which is the one for learning school and cadre?
I believe it is Know the Narcissist. I have begun twice and ended up learning the people I had put on there, only two, were both empaths prior to completing the list, haha! It has made me gun-shy! But, I know Bundy is a narc, he’s first in line now! 😂
I have to add a little more about Bundy after discovering a fascinating 5 part documentary mini-series which involves a more recent follow up with his long time girlfriend/IPPS and her daughter. It was fascinating for a number of reasons, one being it shows many images of the two and three of them together behaving very much like a loved up couple and family, and also a very loving relationship he appears to have had with his younger brother. The strength of the romantic relationship lasted for about 5 years, between ’69 and ’74 when it’s believed the killings began.
I want to add a couple of comments from the ‘horse’s mouth’, so to speak, as the descriptions totally match the narcissistic dynamic HG highlights and we discuss here.
Firstly, there is a male co-worker and friend of his girlfriend who describes her excitement in the period just after she met him :
“She said you can’t believe the enjoyment and exhilaration of meeting somebody who reflected to me how I was feeling about him.”
That gave me chills. She immediately picked up on the element of ‘reflection’ and shared this in what she told her friend.
The same friend also said “it was such a sweet story to watch love grow and be so intense and so complete. She swore it was like going to heaven.”
The daughter:
“He had that gift for dealing with all people. He was really rather gifted at seeing what you might need him to be and being that. Looking back on it, he was an impressive person. We felt like he picked us, and we felt like the country cousins, and he was more sophisticated than we were. What it looked like was he was a step above ourselves. We kind of started to see the kind of choices he would want in our clothes and things. I remember that. It was conservative, upper crusty things, he wanted me to wear a dress. It was not so much about evaluating him. Clearly he was magnificent in all ways and so we should just aspire to rise to his level of polish.”
Signs of his chameleon nature became apparent as he entered the political fray and he also boasted about his ability to steal with the belief he could never be caught. Red flags were being raised.
The IPPS:
“It was early in 1974 when Ted started acting differently towards me, where we weren’t spending as much time together as we had been. He’d just drop out of my life for about three days or whatever and I’d kind of go back over our last conversation, like “what did I say?”, “what did I do?” This is a pattern that always made me feel like a shrew. With the conflict I would be really upset and raising my voice and he would just be calmer and calmer. It was crazy making.”
The daughter:
“My mom was concerned all the time, and she was drinking more at that time. She felt that maybe he was seeing someone else and I do remember hearing those conversations.”
The IPPS:
“What I knew was men that cheated on their partners, so that thought was going on that I’d become boring, that I was predictable, and that I needed to be somebody else. Then he’d pop back in and it was like nothing ever happened.”
The similarities to mine, and many other’s experiences, is actually chilling.
LET, a few more thoughts on Bundy. My son watched it like 3 nights ago, he came in visibly upset by it. I felt bad for him, he really didn’t realize that people like Bundy truly exist, I don’t think. But, it was a good opportunity to discuss narcissism and HG’s categorization of them. One of the things that my son could not grasp at all, and I didn’t push it really, was why Bundy didn’t kill the fiance, how his life with her could seem so normal when he was doing all that killing away from her. The compartmentalization was what I was able to get him to understand somewhat, but he still thought there had to be something special that Bundy felt toward her that made him see her differently. I mentioned the Madonna/whore possibility which he accepted could’ve been part of it. But, that Bundy felt nothing toward her, except that she was the best provider of fuel for him during that time, he could not get it. But, there is a seed planted anyway. I thought it was interesting that my conversation with him happened right at the time of this conversation here.
The other thing that he and my conversation brought to my attention was that, though he did develop world-wide recognition, I don’t believe that was the main motivator for his killing, therefore, likely not a Greater. Also, the way he “defended” himself in court was eerily similar to how my ex used to do the same, whenever he had to get out of some thing, a speeding ticket or whatever. He presented like an idiot and barely knew the law. Bundy seemed to know the law a bit better, but still, did not do well as his own defense attorney. So, I’m amending my guess to, haha, either, UMR Somatic, or MMRA Elite??? And now my curiosity is really piqued!! 🙂
AV, your poor son 🙁 It’s painful when innocence is destroyed and we become more aware of the evil that exists in the world. It’s one of the reasons it’s often impossible to go deeper in terms of understanding … some things are just beyond our comprehension. The only term that can be put to them is evil.
Your conversation with him was timely indeed, and it’s wonderful that you find so many opportunities to discuss these things with him. He’s obviously a very open minded young man and happy to discuss, and planting the seed can lead to much greater understanding in the long run. His curiosity has been piqued, as well as his concern, and it’s probably a lot for him to take in at his age also. The understanding can only benefit him in the long run, it might just need a little time to sink in.
As a thoughtful and caring young man, I’m not surprised he doesn’t understand the concept of ‘fuel’, which is hard for a lot of people to get their head around. It is so cold and calculating, and requires a total lack of empathy on the part of the narcissist which empaths will always find hard to understand. It’s also the kind of disconnect that’s impossible for the empath to imagine, using and abusing people for your own gain, giving the appearance of caring when nothing could be further from the truth.
Ha, I didn’t give much thought to the Greater and their need or desire for recognition, especially on such a large scale. Bundy got, and still does get, an enormous amount of ‘recognition’ for the crimes he committed and his ability to sway public opinion with his charming and eloquent persona. That, of course, only came about due to his capture and coverage of his crimes. In that sense, I don’t imagine it was planned, so Greater might be remiss in that sense. Mid-Ranger who got lucky in terms of his notoriety? I’m not sure how far we have to separate his narcissism out from his psychopathy, in terms of what got the upper hand, but I’d say his psychopathy was in the lead and his narcissism secondary to that.
My curiosity is also piqued after having this conversation! 🙂
LET, it was hard to see him with a bit of innocence gone but better at 19 than my age.
Yes, he and my oldest were the talkers, non-stop. He will need a wife who it’s happy to listen someday!
And I also wondered about the breakdown of psychopathy too narcissism in Bundy’s mix. I suspect you are correct about that.
AV, totally agree with better at his age, and my wish would have been to know a lot sooner, too x
My son is a combination of the quiet man and talker, it all depends on the day and the moment. He’s thoughtful and a deep thinker and recently broke up with his girlfriend of 4 years because she wasn’t much of either … I think he wants to be able to have those deep conversations when he needs to and, while she was lovely and appreciated by us all, I don’t think she had the depth or maturity to meet him in the same place. I’ve been spending a bit of time with him lately as he navigates his first serious breakup. He doesn’t talk about it, apart from in the first instance, but I’m available if the need arises <3
LET, I’m glad for your son that he has you as he goes through this. Breakups are never easy, stable people who love us and are there if we need to talk are so important. He is blessed to have you.
Thank you, AV <3
LET, I read “Hare Psychopathy” with a twist 😉
Always be on the lookout, AspEmp 😉
LET (and anyone else interested in Bundy):
The book: The Phantom Prince: My life with Ted Bundy. Written by the longtime live in girlfriend of Bundy and who had a young daughter (who was not Bundy’s). Make sure to get the updated and expanded version as she adds her view as time has gone on (and her daughter comments as well).
A real eye opener into the target and the effects of ensnarement as well as how things progress and the effect on any children involved. There were things regarding the daughter that foreshadowed what might yet have come and that I had never read anywhere else.
If I had not been raised in a LOCE and been educated here, I might not have believed half of it, and that kept coming to my mind while reading.
NA, thank you for the recommendation. I wasn’t aware she had written a book and there’s no doubt it will be much more detailed. The documentary series I mentioned was created last year and is called “Falling for a Killer”, where quite a number of people who had relationships and interactions with Bundy speak out. It’s worth a watch as so much of the narcissistic dynamic is apparent throughout. I took a handful of verbatim comments from the first episode of the mini-series to add here, but there is so much more to it. I accessed it on Amazon Prime and it was only made in 2020, so not sure if it is even more updated than the book you mention, but of course the book will contain much more detail. I’m very interested in what you say about the foreshadowing, and there appears to have been quite a bit of that which is often never recognized until things come to an end. In that sense, I’m sure the book is a real eye opener.
The other thing you say also resonates, NA. It often takes personal experience to make any of it believable, which is probably why narcissists get away with as much as they do – due to the ‘unbelievability’ factor. The same went for Bundy – outward appearances made it difficult for people to believe he could have done those things.
I could say so much more, and it all relates to narcissism, but what the series also highlighted was the cultural shift going on at the same time. Women were becoming empowered and there was an interplay in the documentary around this issue, I’m guessing with regard to an element of misogyny. We know, from what HG has told us, that male narcissists tend to be misogynistic. The documentary doesn’t make a direct correlation between Bundy’s killings and this element of women’s empowerment, but I’m going to guess they were alluding to this being a factor.
All serial killers are narcissists, but not all narcissists are serial killers. Throw in a pinch of psychopathy for good measure and you’ve got a potential serial killer.
Girls, very interesting conversation!
K Mac, I think so too. At the moment, “my N” really believed his lies. But at other times, about the same thing, he knew he was lying and bragged about how well he was doing it. Character swap.
He was also “crazy” about polygraph. He was excited to be able to trick this device. I don’t know if it was just his delusion or if he was once forced to undergo a polygraph test. I believe he is breaking the law on several levels. When he was interrogated, he uses the method described by AV – he pretends to be a total idiot, in need of help, an innocent child. His youthful face, bright, “innocent” eyes and subtle body structure certainly help him in this. And also the seemingly calm and orderly life that she leads.
LET, I am not able to delve into the murderous world at all. Sometimes it happens (very rarely!), But I feel it too much, it makes my psyche too much, I shake it off for too long. I can not. The mere news in the press about someone’s murder has thrown me off balance. It’s tearing me apart from the inside.
“My N” took sadistic pleasure to take advantage of this fact, and I think that’s why I know a little about him. He only showed me little bits of truth, he’s not stupid, and it was very hard for me. In criminal activities, he is confident (fearlessly, he enjoys it) and enjoys the admiration of others like him.
AV, yes, being with him too, I was removed from all bad things. I was under protection. He did everything to prevent this world from seeping through to me, to keep up appearances in front of me.
Only now, after so many years, with wild delight, he showed some elements, that I was not aware of. And all this happened as I was calmly inhaling the scent of our child, melting with the longing for him.
I guess you’re protected by him, as long as you believe in him.
I never thought that I would touch this world. Never.
But yes, now I know that this world is all around me and it permeates everything. I can see him at every turn now. I had no such awareness before. I still try not to see, but the gap has been opened, I notice, although I don’t want to…
Amazing. While with me, he seriously considered becoming a policeman. He said he would be a good criminal policeman, precisely because he understood this world so well. But he interrupted his studies. There are some law enforcement officers in his family, very well educated, quite high-ranking.
Have you noticed, that most of the high-ranking policemen are narcissists? At least those I know.
Criminals catch criminals…
Criminals support criminals…
—————–
No. This is not my world. My world is beautiful. Why, did he have to show it to me? I am not fit for it… ☹ My world looks like this morning – I enter the store, make a few strangers smile, the atmosphere in the entire store changes instantly and it gives me great happiness.
—————–
The worst thing is that I still (knowing so much) can believe him. All I need to do is see that face with a scar on its mouth, it is enough for him to laugh at my fears and I will feel this warmth and sense of security spread out (ironically!). I am still able to deceive myself. I am still able to look at him with “those eyes”. Not for as long as it used to be, but enough to penetrate. It would be my personal failure. This could be his greatest revenge.
And I know that if he exhausted what he wants to exhaust, he could frame me with anything.
—————–
Sorry, I swam away again. I mixed everything with my own affairs. I don’t have time to sort and arrange it. Thoughts are attacking me too much right now. It flies as it is.
Wrrrrr, I am unreformable…
Joa, you’ve shared many thoughts, but I will only address the one addressed to me.
The narcissist showing little parts of themselves, or their dark sides, is a way of testing us, I believe. They want to know if we will run away, be appalled, back off, see them for what they really are. More often than not we immediately excuse them because the face they have shown us during the period of seduction disallows us from seeing or believing anything less wonderful lies underneath. This person has to be the person we believe them to be, otherwise we cannot continue to live the fantasy. We do this partly to protect ourselves from the heartache, but we also ‘con’ ourselves because at some level it is what we want.
I’ve no doubt, going by the description of your stepfather, that you have been primed for this kind of relationship from an early age. That means you are vulnerable and at all times must be on high alert. Now, I have a sense you might reject that comment because you continue to enamoured of the relationship with the narcissist. From my perspective, this is where your struggle lies, and the struggle for most of us. We are suffering an addiction, we love the highs and will tolerate the lows only in the sense that we know we can eventually get high again (i.e. the respite period, or alternatively the golden period with a new narcissist).
It’s incredibly difficult to move out of this dynamic when you have been primed for it from childhood. It can feel like there is no escape, and sometimes we don’t want to escape. The narcissist will hold us there as long as we let them. The good news is we have the ability to take that power back, especially now with all of HG’s incredible work at our fingertips.
I, too, know the intoxication of the ‘protective’ element of narcissism. As long as you are painted white you can certainly feel protected, and as long as you continue to fulfill the narcissist’s Prime Aims. If he has kudos in the criminal world, or whatever field he is dominant in, then you can expect to feel his strength surrounding you as long as you stay on his good side. His display of his dark side is also a warning to you – cross me and this is what could happen to you. I shared this thought in a response to AV. They want you to know who they are so that you never ‘cross’ them. The protection afforded will be especially intoxicating for the CoD.
I know I’ve said a lot there in response to your much shorter comment to me, but I think it’s an important and interesting discussion to have here. I’m glad you prompted me to share these thoughts <3
Joa,
You’ll get there girl. Take it one step at a time. You have us all here. You can do it I promise.
The compartmentalization is there but also lack of accountability, the lack of empathy, the seeing us as objects, all this plays into it also. They just think absolutely differently than we do. When HG describes it in the Promiscuous Boy article, how he goes from one woman, right back to his girlfriend without any guilt whatsoever, and then did it to every girlfriend after that, it sent chills up my spine, at the absolute coldness of it. At the absolute coldness of his noticing the discovery that he had no guilt. I get it from the perspective that they don’t care, it has helped me understand that.
AV, the element of objectification stood out to me in your comment. The absolute disconnect and coldness of it, even callousness at times.
I read Promiscuous Boy again and there is valuable insight to be gained from the narcissist’s perspective. Unfortunately, from my perspective, we live in a promiscuous society which lends itself to the objectification of others. On a certain level we’ve come to accept being objectified and also, at times, objectify ourselves.
This may be especially true of the CoD’s who see their purpose in pleasing others. Being made an object is not a far leap for us in many ways because often being ACON’s, we have been objectified all our lives.
The narcissist saying to me that if I didn’t give in to him sexually he would find someone else was really just saying “you are an object to me, nothing more and nothing less, for the purposes of my pleasure” – or as I know now for fuel. Part of me knew I was being objectified, and I agreed.
While Promiscuous Boy tells me about who the narcissist is, it also tells me about who I am. Society has made it easy for narcissist’s to take the advantage when it comes to sex. In some ways it’s a coldness and calculation we’ve come to expect, which in other ways doesn’t make it any less hurtful. Human beings are made for intimacy and connection.
There is a definite sense in me that the narcissist is able to take advantage of what our society has become.
LET, yes, that was what was standing out to me when I wrote that comment, and I was thinking of my ex as well as HG. How my ex would just come to my place, or our home after we were married, as if nothing had happened. I agree with your assessment of our society, how we objectify others, I even did it when I had the ONS’s as a young woman. The “his (HG) noticing the discovery that he had no guilt” is where we part ways. I did have guilt, over using people, over hurting people if I found out they had a significant other after the fact, over hurting my fiance when I made that choice once before the wedding (1st marriage) and I didn’t do it again until we were separated. And how I never allowed these thoughts even, even when there was temptation, during my 2nd marriage, I couldn’t have lived with it. But my ex did it routinely and with no guilt whatsoever. He actually justified it in his own mind and laid the blame on me in subtle ways. Now I understand that this is typical. There was more gaslighting in that marriage (2nd) than I ever realized, the more I have learned here, the more I can see it and the incidences of it continue to become more realized. I wasn’t deluding myself as much as I was being deluded, in many instances, so that is something of a silver lining anyway.
Last night my son and I were talking and he shared with me that every female at his last job had a crush on him, a couple of guys too, and in the course of the situation, given the antics that apparently went on, he said he can understand what women feel when they say a man is using them. He felt very objectified in that situation, and as sad as it is that he went through it, and was used and tossed aside, there are some good lessons he can take from it going forward. I don’t believe he will ever do this to a woman, knowing how it made him feel. It was interesting to see it from his perspective. One thing that he said he has learned is that casual “flirting” can be dangerous, the other person misinterpreting it, and that he doesn’t do it any more. He didn’t realize he was doing it when he was younger, but made that connection because of that work situation.
I agree about CoD’s also, sadly. I think it is easy for narcissists to take advantage of them particularly.
Yes, I agree also about what Promiscuous Boy says to me about me also. This is what I’ve been learning about here, for this past year, never having understood it before. It is why I now look at intimacy and connection in a very different way. It has dawned on me recently that I have never been truly in love, with a person. I have only been in love with an illusion. So, the first time I experience actual true, romantic love, at my age, will be a first! I am super excited about this!
Yes, our society has made it easier for narcissists to do their thing, and also for the creation of more, I believe. How long until we and normals are no longer the majority? Frightening thought, but, it gives me that much more determination to get the word out, about narcissism and HG’s work specifically.
AV, I think the fact they feel no guilt feeds into the fact we can be deluded by them – if they feel no guilt, no remorse, there’s little chance of them showing signs, or of us reading them, around the fact they have cheated. I think you’re right in many ways when you say we have been deluded as opposed to deluding ourselves. They can be very convincing.
So interesting to hear of your son’s experiences who sounds like a very sensitive and caring young man. It’s sad to think how he was used by at least one person in that situation when he was still quite young and innocent, and probably important to recognize that men can feel objectified, too. Some will relish that, the Somatics at least, but in their case it will be an objectification that works both ways. I think often we don’t even realize we are objectifying others, or even consider it in some ways complimentary. Our eye will naturally be drawn to someone we find attractive, but an empath will seek to go a lot deeper than that, and will also have an expectation of the same from others. That’s once we recognize our true value, which as ACON’s we often don’t, at least for a long time. I’m so glad your son recognizes these things, both in terms of valuing himself and others. He really is a very thoughtful young man which says a lot in terms of how you have raised him.
I had to laugh a little at not having ever been truly in love with a person, but only because that is my experience, too. It’s kind of a heartbreaking one, but at the same time I can laugh at myself for thinking or convincing myself it was real. That’s not a bad place to be, and much preferable to beating myself up. I mean, how ridiculous do I look to myself now, being taken in by not just one charlatan, and how marvellous to think I overcame them all <3 xox
I seem to recall this too, ” I recall HG saying somewhere here that Bundy was a narcissistic psychopath, therefore he would need an IPPS, or at least an NPPS” maybe I can find it.
It’s the “by our standards” where the issue lies! Haha, we do think differently to them!
AV, it definitely feels like cheating.
I’ve struggled to understand this dynamic when it came to my ex-husband and the last narc, but this article makes it all so clear. The see-saw allegory is perfect in terms of what is happening and how it makes you feel.
Another woman would be lifted up above me and I would question that happening when I was not receiving the same amount of time, attention, etc. The narcs would force me to take that back on myself with suggestions of insecurity, and I would question the whole issue of ‘friendship’, my understanding around that and why this somehow felt different.
Regardless of whether sex was involved (and for the most part I don’t think it was), something felt out of kilter, but I struggled to explain what it was. I believe it now has a name, which is ’emotional affair’. They are cheating on you emotionally, even if it’s not physically, and for me that is just as damaging. It undermines trust. I felt very much at sea not knowing my ‘position’, and as we know now we do have a position as part of the fuel matrix. Even as IPPS we can be devalued while the narc takes up with a secondary or even tertiary source. They are giving to someone else what belongs to us in an intimate relationship. Sharing of themselves in a way that usually only belongs to us in our relationship. It’s so interesting that emotional cheating can also be considered cheating when it comes to intimate relationships.
I remember many years ago I got on really well with a co-worker who at the time was divorced, but also living with a partner who was pregnant. We would take our breaks together and it got to a point where I had to clearly express to him I didn’t think it was a good idea any longer. That was based on my own sense of what was happening and how it could be construed. Also the fact that I was becoming emotionally connected and did not want to interfere with his current relationship. This has happened to me more than once, but I know there is a need to draw the line in the sand. Much like “do unto others”, I wouldn’t like that to be done to me, even unknowingly. And women have an uncanny knack for knowing what’s what in these situations. Which is where the narcissist can count on gallons of fuel for the taking.
Hi LET, I questioned it, him too. But then I’d accept his excuses. You worded that well, about the insecurities. My ex would straight up lie to me, of course now I understand that he didn’t know he was lying, which is why he was so convincing. This still boggles my mind. And in my marriage, except when the woman initiated in front of me, I largely didn’t know unless I found some evidence, which did happen on a few occasions. But still, I’d accept his excuses. And I often suspected though I didn’t dwell, no reason since it didn’t do any good.
Yes, I have had the same types of experiences, have had to clearly not associate with men in order not to become involved with something questionable, or worse. I was very particular about those in my second marriage because I knew how easily things could happen. And it’s one place where, looking back, I can see my empathy very clearly at work, even before I knew I had any! 😂. We do have a sense of knowing though, that is for sure. I knew my ex cheated whether I had details or not. But only came to believe it s few months ago, how sad is that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it helps me sorry through mine, the whole experience, more. I worry that I will struggle to trust anyone, but if I can sort this out, and ensure I’m not with a narcissist, I think I can.
AV, I think your first paragraph sums up a lot of the to’s and fro’s of these situations. They are convincing, we are accepting, and somehow, though we suspect the wool is being pulled over our eyes, we carry on wanting to believe that is not the case. I do not want to believe my husband, lover is cheating. I want him to lie to me and tell me it isn’t so. Convince me, and I will be easily convinced. Even though I know the whole thing is hanging by a thread. I’m going to cling to it.
I worry, too, that I will struggle to trust anyone again, and maybe I won’t. I’m not putting myself out there and I certainly don’t want to get it ‘wrong’ again. It’s caused so much trauma in my life. Perhaps the place I’m at is just healing from the trauma at the moment. Especially since it extends back to my earliest memories. Time is a factor, and hopefully renewed trust will come with that and better choices. I think there is great hope for all of us, AV, moving into the future, purely based on our current awareness and the fact we are continuing on our educational journey. We know the choice is ours when the time comes.
We also have the Narccissist-in-Chief, or the Ultra, to help guide us <3
LET, reading your words “emotional affair” made me think, or rather, gave me ‘reason’ to not be able to sleep then I slept a bit and had a nightmare where a friend was freaked out by something that does not even exist on earth! So I woke up, got up. Had some hot milk. Decided to write a reply to your comment.
In our perspective, a non-sexual yet emotional ‘relationship’ comes across as ‘cheating’, and it can be just as hurtful / painful as a sexual affair. From a narcissist’s perspective, they are getting fuel from the positive emotional ‘output’.
Your words “And women have an uncanny knack for knowing what’s what in these situations” – that is true.
I thought to myself, why did I attract ‘cheaters’? There was only one relationship where I was not cheated on. Granted, the last 2 are narcissists. Lesser did not seem to be ‘emotionally cheating’. MRN was, with more than one ‘other’ woman as well. When I was in devaluation, he’d be communicating with someone else and not even a hello to me whether it was on FB or Messenger.
Then when his grand-daughter was able (old enough) to have proper conversations with people, his ‘interactions’ with different women seemed to ‘drop’ off. Effectively to the point where it seemed HE was the father of that little girl. I can understand – because she gave him ‘clean’ and innocent, positive ‘emotions’. At the same time, he had a new IPPS (also a narcissist – who did not show ‘love’ to her husband, but lots of ‘love’ to her daughter who was similar age to MRN’s grand-daughter). Positive ‘fuel galore’ for them two. The toddler girls are possibly ‘golden’ child – spoilt rotten.
That is one reason why muvver abused me. For control. Because I did not ‘love’ her in the same way as I loved my father, from a very early age.
This, in turn, leads to babies / toddlers being “ensnared”, easily, by narcissists, hence the ‘conditioning’ starts early. The young child is “performing” for a narcissist because they are taught that the smiling, laughing ‘pleases’ the narcissist. I am reminded of HG’s ‘The Narcissist Keeps It in The Family’.
I also logged onto FB after nearly 8 weeks – I was surprised to see a friend request from a friend’s husband who had unfriended me after my posting about narcissists this and narcissists that (about them work fuckens, over 2 years ago) because it ‘bothered’ him. 30 years I’d known him. I was hurt at the time. He’s never known ‘isolation’. Yes, it bothers me a bit (not concerned but I was ‘let down’). I’ll sleep it off and wake up later, not planning on ‘dwelling’ on this ‘trivia’. I ‘zombied’ in and out of FB for around 10 minutes, LOL.
I’ll say ‘good morning’ to anyone who reads this (it’s 5.20am)……
This will be belated ‘good morning’ coming from me, AspEmp, but hopefully your day has gone OK x
I am sorry my thoughts led to an unsettled night, but glad you’ve been able to put your thoughts out there <3
I have days where I'll be damned if I'm going to consider anything from a narc's perspective, that's just being honest. Good for him, if he's getting positive fuel, it's the opposite response from me. Is the narc going to consider my feelings? No. So, screw that bastard and what he is doing to me! How's that for a fiery start to the day and nothing at all to do with you or your comment xox
The response I have just given will be fuel for the narc. I'm upset. He knows it.
So, he's getting fuel from me, he's getting fuel from her, he's drinking it all in with a thirst that knows no bounds, and from a cup that can never be filled. That's my vengeful take on the narcissist. His cup will never be filled. So there!
If we take the cheating in either context – emotional or physical – then when it comes to narcissists I think the question has now been answered. It is in their DNA to do what they do, and has literally nothing to do with us. When asking the question "Why do I attract cheaters?", you now know the reason is because you are an empath and often they are narcissists. One will never be enough, especially if they are capable of getting more. Greed is their specialty. More, more more for me, me, me. There is nothing inherently wrong with you or us – I know, I've felt the same way – but there is something inherently wrong with them. With an inability to empathize, love, trust, compromise, consider, etc., they can walk all over us and every other appliance in their fuel matrix. She who may be getting the attention now is not likely to hold it and will be cheated on as well.
It sounds like your ex's granddaughter became a Grade A source of fuel for him, and it's very concerning whether children are made the Golden Child or the Scapegoat.
Let me say one thing about narcissist mothers, regardless of how good or bad our relationship with our fathers. We are their competition. They will compete with us on many fronts, and if they see us with something positive they will try and take that away from us. It is about control, but it is also about envy. We cannot have what they can't have. If your mother was not able to achieve a good relationship with your father, then I'm going to guess she was not going to allow you to have a good relationship with him either or she was at least going to 'punish' you for doing so.
I believe my father was a narcissist, but as he was more volatile than my mother, I tried to cater to him in many ways. As an empath, I believe I was always going to be a scapegoat from my mother's perspective, and maybe from my father's I was the Golden Child, but only because I was doing my best to please him or rather attempting to reduce his volatility. I wonder what scenario this creates for an Empath with two narc parents, one who treats them as the GC and the other who treats them as the SG? Wow, never thought of that before. Anyway, it never felt like I was being treated well or differently, as much as I was catering to his needs. But, I've no doubt my mother took that out on me.
Just thinking about your 'friend', or friend's husband, on FB. It's a definite curiosity that he's seeking to friend you again now. I would also be hurt in your position and doubt I would allow him to friend me again, due to the cut and dried nature of him unfriending you in the first place. Unless you targeted something directly at him, I can't really see a reason for him to have just cut you off without explanation. That really pisses me off. I can't stand people who do that. It's a cowardly move and you deserved an explanation. Especially after 30 years. It's not even political (which could get the hackles up) unless it was? Even so, I think stating your disagreement in the circumstances of a long term friendship is far more mature. That way there is a possibility of working out any possible miscommunication or misunderstanding. If you want to be done with the friendship without explanation, then I'm also done. That's my take on that. Feel free to apologize and I may accept your apology with an explanation, but I wouldn't be so easily drawn back into a situation where I was summarily dismissed. You've lived without him as a friend on FB for this long 😉
Now, when it comes to strange dreams, you dream sounds very unpleasant 🙁 I can't imagine something that doesn't even exist and what that might be like! Hope the dream has faded now.
Interestingly, I had a dream about HG last night 😛
We were discussing something to do with hypnotherapy which was quite in depth (that probably relates to an article I'd read same day), and then we went back to his place where I somehow knew he had a 'vixen' … lol. I said "You have a vixen here" and he tried to deny it, but then I spotted the vixen food. OMG. It was like fish food, in a small container with fine flakes. I don't know if that's how HG catches his prey, but I did attempt to search the apartment for the 'vixen'! Where did that idea even come from, and why a 'vixen'? Strange, very strange indeed.
I could talk all day, but better leave it at that for now <3 xox
AspEmp, I did reply to this comment, but my reply has not been moderated yet. Just wanted you to know I shared a few thoughts around it x
Men do not have emotional affairs.
Actually, they do.
I know, thank you, HG.
Really? Interesting. Narcissist do for fuel maybe?
Narcissists do so for the Prime Aims, as is the case with everything we do when it involved another person.
k mac, HG answered correctly 🙂
@ASP
I’m commenting this here because I can’t remember where you posted your recent comment about being diagnosed as autistic.
If you don’t mind me asking… what made you suspect you were autistic?
My partner thinks I have ADD but I don’t know
Hi Witch, it was my sister who talked about father & me having it, muvver was ‘different’. I think sis came across it as part of her lecturing role and made some ‘links’. 11 years later, I felt I was forced to obtain official diagnosis simply cos I was not accessing the support via jobcentre. I think you may be referring to my recent comment in ‘The Narcissist Keeps It In The Family’? At the time of my diagnosis, I was not made aware of the Autism Act though. Funnily enough, the social worker did not mention it either – so from her, I view that as ‘with-holding information’. After a couple of ‘visits’, she “disappeared” into the ‘ether’…….thank you for asking, Witch.
Thanks for getting back to me
I was wondering what behaviours/traits you had which made your sister think you might be autistic?
It’s okay if you don’t feel comfortable sharing that
Witch, I think it was through learning about ‘assessing needs of learners’ – I think it comes as a standard part of education when doing a course in teaching – in relation to the 3 learning styles that people have (auditory / visual / kinaesthetic). In my view, it should also be mandatory for people who are on a training course for managers. I found it useful. She obtained a Masters in teaching, so I think it also involved learning more about those with different thought processing?
How is this not cheating, in some form or another? Even if it’s not sexual, it’s still taking from what should be the primary partner’s and giving it to someone else, time, attention, stuff etc. It’s still cheating.
I agree, but for me, it is cheating when there is no prior consent.
Yes, I guess that was assumed. Haha, but, shows the narcissist again, if I didn’t speak up, he took it as consent! He likely would not have gotten as much fuel if I had given consent.