I Smell Victim
I am a predator. My kind are predators. We prey on people. Everybody has the potential to be a victim, but there are those that stand out more than the others. There it is, that aura around them which signals to me “victim”. Suitable prey that is to be drawn into my world, ushered through the inviting gateway and whilst they are distracted the gateway closes behind them with ominous finality. The locks turn, the bolts slide across and the portal is sealed, yet they never notice. They are preoccupied with the golden dust that is being sprinkled over their eyes. All too easy. Yet, that is what is to come and we are focused on the now.
There glows that aura, pulsing like a beacon, a welcome light which may as well be neon lettering stating “Come and Get Me”. The victim makes themselves known within moments of coming across my radar. It is the case that there are a score of tell tale indicators but the fact is that one has that instinctive knowledge that somebody is an ideal victim. How do I know? How do we know? Do you smell different? Do you have “V” stamped on your foreheads? No, but you may as well have. It is the capacity to assimilate so many signals that you broadcast in an instant, collate them, interpret them and then the conclusion is reached “Ideal Victim”.
You stand out. You do. In that room, be it bar or departure lounge, dentist´s waiting room or the queue in some pretentious café, your aura glows around you and tells me that you are prey. It might be your gait, the way you hold your bag, the manner of your conversation should you be on your mobile phone, the way you picked up the bottle of water and then replaced it and chose another or the way you looked around yourself before taking a step forward. There is a multitude of signals which combine and are broadcast to me. My cold, reptilian mind assesses the information in an instant. It is like a radar sweeping back and forth, knowing what to look out for and what to jettison. Rejecting the unhelpful information and collating that which accords with what I am seeking. All of this happens in an instant, I have elsewhere broken down those indicators, but in the field, in the hunting grounds, it all happens with speed. You appear in my field of vision and those signals come racing from you, like comets hurtling towards me and each indicator is then absorbed, assessed and the conclusion is reached.
Victim.
It is as if I have breathed in deeply through my nose and picked up the scent of weakness, the stench of vulnerability and the odour of susceptibility. My nose, a predator´s nose has evolved to distinguish those representative smells. Others who have not evolved in the way that we have smell hot dogs cooking, smell lavender on the breeze or the pungent odour of melted tar. It is very much the case that as a psychopath my sense of smell is not that strong. There are certain subtle fragrances which I do not detect when someone else with a much more sensitive nose than mine can pick up the traces of some smell. It is as if through my evolution I have traded the ability to track fragrances with the ability to sniff out the victim. Of course, I do not literally smell the victim, but rather it is a case of detecting them through the provision of various indicators which hurtle towards me in the blink of an eye, fall to be assessed and then the outcome is declared.
Victim.
What sets the most effective of my kind apart from the rest, is the ability to be aware of the values of the victim. It is fundamental to understand their emotional state and perspective. There are those who do so through emotional empathy, of which I have none and instead I utilize my superior and effective cold emotional intelligence. I identify that victim through my superior social information processing skills allied with that icy emotional intelligence. I have a subconscious ability to recognize those who are the most vulnerable to manipulation, through the hyperfast assessment of the signals that an individual broadcasts and then I recognize.
Victim.
It is an edifying result. Like the vampire scents blood, I acquire the knowledge that a victim has passed in front of me, or is sat at a table in the window or is about to pay for her sandwich. It is, in that instant, that they have bared their throat to me and all I need do is lunge forward and sink my sharpened teeth into their soft exposed flesh and drink deep of their essence. Yet, that is the way of Gothic horror, my way is far more sophisticated. I am fixed with the knowledge that a new victim has presented themselves. How delicious!
The capacity for exploitation of this individual is unlimited. The vulnerable are there to be exploited. Society largely does not engage in such exploitation of the vulnerable because so many of its members possess emotional empathy. That guiding force which reduces and even prohibits such behaviours as the ones that I routinely engage in. Emotional empathy has never existed within me and it never shall. There is no hindrance, no restraint and no fetter. Its absence heightens my ability to detect those characteristics through the social information processing of those that I target.
I assess the utility of that individual. Will they be trusting? How open is this individual? Do they look for the good in others? How likely are they to want to forge a connection with me? Are they an investor in relationships? What vulnerabilities will be available for my use? How will they serve my needs? Is this someone who minimize unusual behaviours? Will this person rationalize red flags? How readily will this person swallow a lie? How eager are they to believe? How often do they look to a higher power? Those are some of the ever present, pinned questions that my mind is always asking and against which the victim is quickly evaluated.
Like a present waiting to be unwrapped, the possibilities are numerous as to how I shall proceed to capitalise on the identification of this victim. I already have the upper hand and I shall maintain it, yet along the way I shall enjoy peeling back the layers on this new play thing. Probing it, analysing it and using it.
It is the way that I am designed which enables me to identify that victim within a matter of moments. This ability to select those that will serve my needs so effectively is part of what sets me apart from others, that which provides me with the success that others crave. The route to success can be achieved by being the best or cheating or being the fastest. I say why not all three?
You will have to excuse me. I can smell dinner…….
183 thoughts on “I Smell Victim”
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Dear Rebecca,
https://narcsite.com/2024/11/17/i-smell-victim-4/comment-page-1/#comment-458873
I think part of the results of NDCs tend to impact some of us in ways that we have the choice to learn to accept them as they are / were, by applying our understanding of the differences that they are to us. It is the relationship part that can be the hardest part to navigate though as we process our learnings of HG’s work. I suppose I find it easier to a degree because of the lack of contact through her (sibling) extended absent silent treatment. It was the cutting off her nephews & husband that added to the difficulty.
It sounds as if your brother had some awareness of some of his behaviours and did them anyway. However, he did some good things for others despite them being for his own purposes.
Yes, I felt sadness at re-watching some of Doug’s videos again. He had a close & successful rapport with HG that reached many people in the way the conversations were intended to. I enjoyed the few times Doug laughed at what HG said, deriving giggling from me too. I’m glad HG has sourced others that can give people similar experiences of how Doug’s / HG’s conversations did. Doug was unique though, one of a kind. Thank you, HG, for having those conversations with Doug xx
Hi Asp,
My reactions and thoughts about my brother’s NDC results reminds me of the comments that Ted Bundy’s neighbors said about him… their shock and disbelief…their words of confusion and the questions that must have circulated in their minds….he seemed like such a nice man….etc…I can very much relate to their feelings and thoughts. Xx
Asp,
In regards to the Doug videos, I am most thankful HG shared them with us. Doug will be missed by many of us. Xx
I don’t think I should read or listen to your content anymore. I’m curious if I can stop. I seem to always come back. It’s keeping narcissism sexualized and romanticized in my brain. Partly my brains fault but definitely your fault too. Dark romance has always been a weakness of mine.
I get what you’re saying. However, I find the fantasy helps me exorcise the narcissists in my reality.
By the way–nothing is ever his fault!
Keep a personal hierarchy. I will never be tempted by Wanna-Be Playuh Narc again; he’s probably a Lower Mid-ranger, if not an outright Lesser (he had a facade, but it was a pathetically fragile one), and I have encountered the work of the Ultra. Why should I settle for an inferior specimen?
WBPN could do me various forms of harm, if I got ensnared again. HG gets only tertiary Fuel from us, and the worst we probably have to fear from him is:
1) being called an Epsilon Semi-Moron, which is unlikely if you don’t do discourteous posts;
2) having him stop releasing his material, which would be disappointing, but nothing can take the knowledge we’ve already gained away from us (except Alzheimer’s, or some other form of dementia/brain damage).
His material certainly costs less than that guy from Nigeria who keeps proving to marry you as soon as the latest crisis is over.
I suppose he could doxx us if he wanted, but he’s been pretty strict about our not doxxing each other. People have been kicked off the site if they try it, which is more serious than if you’re just posting silly troll comments–he’ll let those through, and even analyze them for Narc traits sometimes.
Most importantly, it wouldn’t be in his interest.
Many of us think of HG as Narc Methadone.
Hi, Alexis–
“…do psychopaths have photographic memories? If they do it would also reduce the processing time needed during sleep perhaps?”
I was wondering about this, too. Although HG is a hybrid, I know he has a prodigious memory and he mentioned in a recent video that he doesn’t sleep a lot. I also understand he doesn’t dream. I wonder if these efficiencies are related to his psychopathy. Maybe the absence of emotional empathy and stress are balanced by the incredible memory? I’d also imagine that he has an excellent auditory memory as well, as an accomplished writer and musician.
Hey Allison, my understanding is that they take in everything, however, they do, on occasion misinterpret some information. They believe what they want to believe. I recall one of HG’s posts. I forget which one. Oh I think it was you say, no, we hear yes. And there were various points eg you may say that was a lovely dinner you made and they hear, that was the best dinner I’ve ever eaten in my entire life! They amplify and believe anything positive you tell them. So yes, their memory is outstanding but often there is misinterpretation along the way. I recall one narc who would coerce me into saying he was handsom etc when i did not think so in the slightest. He would tell me how gorgeous I was and then ask me to say it back to me. He basically conditioned me into saying exactly what he wanted to hear. I just laughed inside as I said these things. Of course, sometimes I mean the things I say to them.
Thank you for your response, Alexis. Was the narcissist you were involved with also a psychopath?
Hi Allison and Alexis,
I wanted to add, hope you don’t mind, that my brother had a very good memory. He remembered classmates from childhood more than I did. Some people faded for me, but not for him. He remembered events too. His memory was better than mine and I’ve been told I have a long memory. I still remember my first day of school, friend’s phone numbers, my old childhood phone numbers….as an example…but, he remembered even more than me. Xx
Jump in, Rebecca! Did you ever catch him gaslighting you regarding your memories?
Hi Allison,
Yes, he denied trying to have sex with me. Wouldn’t admit it to anyone, not even the family counselor. He kept denying it and said, it never happened, but I know it did. Xx
I remember my matrinarc doing something similar. It was confusing and very damaging for me to be used for her sexual purposes. I can imagine you felt very different from the other girls and that must have been isolating. Did his denial cause you to question your general grasp on all reality? I ask because that was what I experienced and I’m wondering if you had a similar feeling.
Hi Allison,
You asked, if his denial caused me to question my general grasp on reality?
Yes, I had difficulty with processing what happened, why my brother would try having sex with me…it didn’t make sense to my 12 yr old mind and I couldn’t cope with it afterwards, I didn’t speak and my narc mother, who was a nurse, noticed my numb state of mind. I was in my own head, in a loop with my own circling thoughts.
I felt different from other gitls afterwards because I had a fear of intimacy with boys, from the incident. I was very afraid of sex and being physically close to boys/ men. I was hyper aware of the threat they made me feel. I became anxious, while some girls were relaxed around them. Xx
I understand your feelings, Allison, I felt very different too. Xx
Rebecca,
“I felt different from other girls afterwards because I had a fear of intimacy with boys, from the incident. I was very afraid of sex and being physically close to boys/men.”
If you don’t mind answering…
1. When did you stop feeling anxious of men in general?
2. Why did you continue in a close relationship (going to stay with him after your house was robbed) with him as an adult?
3. How did your mother respond to your claims and his denials?
Dear Rebecca–
Thank you for your openness is response to my question. It’s much appreciated. I feel less alone.
Hi Dani,
To answer your 3 questions :
1) I am still nervous around some men, that didn’t stop.
2) I was robbed at the bank I worked at, not my house. My relationship with my brother wasn’t as close as it once way, my trust for him wasn’t the same after the incident. He was still my brother and I still loved him, but I was no longer 100% relaxed around him. I kept a relationship with him because my love for him was stronger than my fear of him.
3) My mother joined in the family counseling sessions and took them over. She was more concerned for protecting my brother from the law, her golden child couldn’t be threatened. She minimized my trauma and smoothed it over with the counselor. In her eyes, it wasn’t a big deal.
I hope my answers satisfied you. If you have more, feel free to ask me. Xx
Hey Rebecca:
My ASPD ex husband was sharp and with a good memory. My situation is not the same as yours BUT he did sue me for full custody of my children saying I was delusional to the courts causing a 2 year investigation that got him diagnosed ASPD. I don’t think it was gas lighting. I think he wanted to 1. Neutralize my finding of his drugs and crimes ( not really the affairs), 2. He wanted to destroy me. Outside of court there were death threats and that he would put me “and the children on the streets. “ Unlike narcs, who apparently believe their own bs as a defense mechanism…. My understanding is psychopaths aren’t delusional. They know damn well what they did or do but deny it. Your brother remembered. They break laws, social norms like with you and me. I don’t think he was gas lighting like my ASPD ex, I think he was denying his acts. They don’t have remorse but if you or me, in my case my kids, are in line to what they want they can treat you well. Get in their way, not good. Be by their side, good. Psychopaths they say don’t have the same response to fear. True. But they highly dislike the idea of jail. Jail highly concerned my ex. He wrote notes on it that I found. He was greatly concerned at my possible exposure of his criminal activities. I am not that stupid as there were 3rd parties I feared more than him. My ex has 3 kids and they love him. He treats them fairly well for a man who cannot love. He shows up. Children are highly perceptive as my ex child custody evaluator said “ they know who is who.” Some part of you knows your brother like no other. At times, he treated you well. Others, he violated your boundaries and societal rules, norms and laws. My ex treated me like a queen when married although controlling and living a double life. He was a good father to mine yet neglectful to his other children from his first marriage. He was a clear violator of laws. What he didn’t do was abuse me until we got divorced 7 years later. He was not erratic and dramatic like my second husband the narc. He was stable. They say psychopaths can “ fit in” be good fathers, business men, workers, and community members. I agree. I get it. But they tend then to lead double lives, compartmentalizing the family from their true nature. I think unlike narcs, you have to look at what they want. If you are aiding them in anyway, in my case a “ good front.” A female board member of the bar association. A mother of HIS legacy. A wife who supports you domestically. All good. In your case, a sister who provided support. All good. But don’t EVER expose the other compartments of their lives/ nature. They will 1. Deny. Prisons filled with the ASPD “ innocent”, 2. Come after you to silence you. This could be lethal. In your case, it seems denial and in my case both. But you wake up to a horrifying truth and a betrayal of trust. You get it. My first husband made me less trustworthy after learning about his double life. Yet, I had a great 7 years. It’s weird to be with a psychopath. It’s a house of cards….i will say this, I don’t marry well. First, a wealthy ASPD, 2. A poor yet brilliant artist narc. Yet all other long term relations with empaths or normals. The worst was the narc. My ex ASPD was good to me until the divorce and after the divorce not a single issue. We co-parented brilliantly. My soon to be ex narc had periods of abuse. I would pick a ASPD over a narc any day BUT I do think, and this is on personal experience, that you are at greater risk of death with a ASPD. Do not get in their way. I was smart. I kept my mouth shut on my post divorce discovery of his crimes and I walked quickly away from the money. All I wanted was my kids, I got 80% custody. People should consult HG not me in this however…
Hi Contagious,
I remember the day I told my brother he had to leave. He got angry with me and told me, in a total bitter tone…” Good luck with refinancing your home and thanks for kicking me out, some sister you are! I’m going to a shelter, I hope you’re happy!” He used a pity play against me and my own guilt sliced through me.
He was mooching off another friend, found another house to live at and then found a roommate soon after that. He spent one night at the shelter and I felt horrible about it for a while.
I do realize now that he manipulated me to feel guilty, he knew what he was doing 100% xx
Hi Contagious,
I thought my ex husband was a psychopath, some fellow high school classmates thought he was psycho and warned me about him. I didn’t listen to them, was blinded by the rose tinted glasses I saw him through.
He ended up being a UL Type B narcissist instead, which I now think is worse than a full on psychopath to live with. My brother was never that abusive as my ex husband was. He has three assualt charges on his record, is a registered criminal now, lives off disability, is on lithium for his Borderline PD diagnosis and had supervised visit with his daughter, whom he beat up and got arrested for and he also tried to beat up the officer who came to arrest him, why he has three assault charges that I know about. I know because he called me and told me, all part of his Anger Management class he was forced to take. He had to contact me and apologize to me. He also tried to keep in contact with me, wanting to be friends. I told him, No, I don’t hate you, but I don’t want you in my life either. He tried contacting me again in 2021. We divorced in 2000. I blocked him online and my phone. So far, haven’t heard from him since 2021. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Thank you for answering.
1. What commonalities have you noticed about the men who more readily make you nervous?
2. Do or did you find yourself more concerned about sexual abuse over other abuse, like financial or emotional?
3. Did your mother demonstrate any sort of caution with the two of you afterward? e.g. not leaving you alone together, or was the denial so absolute that nothing needed to be done for your protection?
4. What commonalities have you noticed about the men with whom you’ve chosen to form close relationships?
“My mother…was more concerned for protecting my brother…” — That sounds very familiar and that’s all the more I feel like saying at this time about that. I haven’t fully processed everything yet, but I really appreciate you sharing, Rebecca.
Dear Allison,
You’re very welcome and you’re not alone. Xx
Hi Dani,
You’re welcome and I appreciate your questions it helps me think on it and analize my own reactions and feelings. Xx
These are my answers to your 4 questions:
1) The men who make me nervous are usually aggressive in some way, stand too close, grab my arm, come on to me, leer at me, basically sexually aggressive and pushy.
2) Yes, I was more worried about sexual abuse than emotional or financial abuse, especially from men. It’s still my main worry, to be sexually abused without consent.
3) After the incident my brother stayed with a coworker/ old family friend of my Dad’s. He stayed with my Dad’s friend and his family for a time…not sure for how long because I was 12 and I now can’t accurately recall the amount of time he was gone for. I would estimate he was gone for about 4 months, give or take….my brother stayed at my Dad’s friend’s house, so my Dad could calm down and not want to hurt my brother. My mother arranged it for my brother’s benefit. That was the extent of her changes to what she did to monitor him and protect him. I remember her telling me , before family counseling sessions, not to go into certain details about the incident because that made my brother look bad. I was told, you love your brother and you don’t want him to be put away, you better not mention that or this. She told me, if he got into trouble, it would be my fault. I didn’t want him to be hurt, so I left some things out because I was afraid of upsetting her and hurting my brother. So i held my tongue with some things.
4) The men who make me feel safe have gained my trust, they’re not sexually aggressive with me, they don’t push me, threaten me or make me feel scared. They’re kind to me, considerate and respect my space.
I hope my answers helped you, Dani and thank you for your questions. Xx
Thank you, Rebecca. Your answers have given me a lot to think about.
I’m in the process of trying to break this attraction. It runs deep in the women in my family and is responsible for my grandmother being murdered by a serial killer and her mother being murdered by her stepfather.
New to your blog. Can you recommend other posts to read? My therapist recommended you as I’m ending a 10 year narc marriage and finally see the pattern.
Welcome to the blog. If you seek to tackle the addiction I would commend The Addiction Triple Package to you. It is available in the Knowledge Vault (found in the menu of the blog) and if you are prompt you can use the Black Friday Discount Code (see the video on my YouTube channel) and you will receive 50% off.
Hello HG:
I am in a divorce. No money no kids. No requests for money but the UK has a slow process regardless. But recently, he set up an account for me on SoundCloud with love songs to me and how much pain he is in. I contacted SoundCloud to delete the account. I didn’t know my URLbut they found it and deleted it. I got notice that he emailed l some of my clients again. I told them to block him. Then a mutual friend told me he moved out of his mother’s . This was what I used to want and a big move. But I don’t care. I just wonder with his recent actions if I will get the promised divorce. Thoughts most appreciated? He is a MLN. I guess it will never end until death. Like you said. But if the divorce goes through my money is protected. Thanks HG!
Z:
So sorry to hear about your marriage ending! Mine too, a MLN. 12 years. And how horrifying the tragedy to your mother and grandmother. No wo ds! I hope you find our community supportive and welcoming and HG can help! I recommend first… a consult! Best wishes!
Hi, Contagious–
I didn’t grow up with the Zebu. They belonged to my father-in-law. I did try the milk once and I found it thin and runny. And the meat was awful.
I came to HG’s work initially trying to figure my in-laws out because they caused me lots of terror. It was the cruelty to animals that really got me. Now with the material on TOW and her usage of the passing of dog Guy (somebody check those vet records!) the Zebu experience is even more informative. Before I found the channel, my father-in-law’s treatment of animals just disturbed me but now I can turn it around and learn something from it. Somehow the work helps me pursue meaning out of the chaos.
I don’t bring my in-laws up at parties because then I’m trying to have fun.
Hi Ztherobot,
Mr. Tudor is a wonderful teacher. You’re in the right place. Mr. Tudor has a ton of books also. I like Red Flag & Black Flag to start. I would also suggest, Fuel, Fury, Sitting Target & Manipulated. Those are all must reads and you can find them all on Amazon.
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for understanding what it’s like to love someone who doesn’t have empathy. Xx
You mentioned boundaries with narcs in your life. I’ve learned to set boundaries at work, with coworkers and so far that’s been an almost weekly battle with certain narcs at work….the locking horns is really frustrating me.
I keep standing my ground and management isn’t much help with the on and off conflicts. My issue is I keep letting them get to me and I talk back and get angry. It’s hard not to, for me I get emotional and I fight to hold myself back from getting too upset. I make myself calm down, after I verbally defend myself.
I work with a good amount of narcs and there’s a fight going on at least weekly and it doesn’t always involve me, thank goodness. Xx
I look at it as good practice for me, helps strengthen my control over my emotions, so hopefully some day it’ll be easier. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Often times with narcs, they won’t respect your boundaries unless it serves there purpose to do so. More often what I’m doing is eliminating people from my life once I realize they’re a narc. Of course there are exceptions like my husband, daughter and mother. With my mother at least, the conversations are few and far between. I have a firm ANC regime with her.
As far as the work place goes, running into narcs is inevitable. I try to remind myself that they’re poking at me so they can get a reaction and fuel from me. Sometimes that works. But sometimes I do end up giving them fuel. When that happens, I don’t dwell on it. I just let it roll off my back and keep it moving. Try not to worry so much about giving them a reaction. Who cares? When you sit and worry about it, its affecting you and not them. They don’t deserve to rent space in your brain.
I saw your post about your brother and feeling guilty when he passed. I can’t get over how much of our stories are similar. My father was gone for 2 weeks before he was found. He lived with my mother at the time too but they lived in different parts of the home. That’s a whole other story. Anyway, I felt incredible guilt at first too. But I realized that my father did this to himself. He alienated us all. Its the same for your brother. You were done with his nonsense. Its ok that you took that stance. He died alone because of the things he did, not because of the things you did. It took me some time to look at it that way with my father but I had to otherwise it just would’ve ate at me.
Hi, Leigh. “He lived with my mother at the time too but they lived in different parts of the home.” My apologies if you’ve explained before, but was he a hoarder?
Hi Allison,
Your question intrigues me. What made you question if my Dad was a hoarder? The answer is actually no. In fact he was more of a minimalist. Here’s why it intrigued me though. My mother is a hoarder. She can’t throw things out. She even hoards weird things like the tabs from soda cans and candy wrappers. It drives me nuts!
I’d love to hear your thoughts though on why you questioned it about my Dad.
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for understanding me and you’re right we do have similiar stories. Xx I noticed that about Allison’s story about her birthday and the narc in her life had to go to the hospital, my mother did that on my 16th birthday party and the ER doctor couldn’t find anything wrong with my LMRVN mother. HG said, they play from the same book, their behaviors play out do much alike, it’s kinda creepy. What they say and do is instinctual for them, they’re all humans, so it makes sense that their minds, due to their narcissism, would work the same. They have to put the attention back on them, on your birthday, what better way than a trip to the ER?
They do alienate themselves, after a while family even catches on to their behaviors. My mother’s brother’s family knew all about her “real self” and the facade they saw through. It just all makes sense. I wish she was still alive sometimes, because I’d want to confront her. I’d want to tell her, ” I see you for who you really are, I see right through you.” I know she wouldn’t get it and it would be pointless to say, but damn if it wouldn’t feel liberating to say it! As it is, I take comfort in seeing her without the mask. Her decaying corpse is more her true face. Sorry for the image and harshness, but it truly fits her. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I confronted both of my parents and did no good. It just upset me more because they blame shifted. They can’t do accountability at all.
I totally get the harshness, no need to apologize at all.
Hi there, Leigh–
“I’d love to hear your thoughts though on why you questioned it about my Dad.”
It was two things: 1) you said it took two weeks to find him after he died, and 2) your parents lived in different parts of the home. The fact that they lived in different parts of the home isn’t unheard of, but that coupled with how long it took to notice his passing indicated to me some level of hoarding history in the home. A hoarded home, even if it’s cleared, tends to remain sort of distorted. Unfortunately, it’s a common story for people to suffer indignities owing to the condition of hoarding. I’m sorry for what you experienced.
My apologies for assuming it was your father. Since it was your mother who had the condition that makes sense also. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I’ll explain my line of thought. In my experience in a home where there is one hoarder the condition impacts upon everyone in the house, even if their own areas are well kept. Also, my in-laws were both afflicted and the negative consequences were far-reaching and touched almost everyone, even people outside the home.
As for me, there’s nothing like seeing a 500-pound Zebu cow living in the middle of my in-laws’ kitchen to make this girl question reality. I guess I became a bit sensitive to the signs after that. And also a little more loopy.
Hi Allison,
Your train of thought was correct. My childhood home was very distorted and disjointed. Not only is my mother a hoarder, she’s an agoraphobic. She was in the house the whole time and didn’t realize my father had passed. She never went into the part of the house he lived in. What’s even more interesting is that she wasn’t the one who found him. That’s how disjointed she was from that part of the house and reality.
My brother had went missing. I think he was with his girlfriend for a couple of days but my mother couldn’t get in touch with him so she called the police. When the police came to the home to talk to my mom, they could smell my father’s decaying body. That’s how he was found. If it wasn’t for that, who knows when he would’ve been found.
My father was from another country and had no extended family here. He only had us. He and I were estranged at the time and I hadn’t talked to him in over a year. So people weren’t checking in on him. I felt some guilt when he died. But after finding this blog, I don’t anymore. He’s the one that pushed everyone away.
You don’t have to apologize for assuming it was my father. He was an asshole. He was a minimalist and traveled light so he can leave on a moment’s notice, which he did often.
I’m intrigued now. A 500 pound Zebu cow? I need more details, please.
Hi Leigh,
You confronted your parents and you said, it did no good and wouldn’t take accountability for their actions. I can imagine my mother doing the same, though I think she would have cried and acted out as the victim and used pity plays against me, so I’d feel like a horse’s a## for confronting her….so, yeah it would have been pointless for me too. Xx
I’m glad I’ve come to realize that, now I don’t feel I missed out on confronting her at all. Thank you for that relief, Leigh. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Oh yes, my mother gave me a pity play while blame shifting. I confronted her about not feeding me. She said I wouldn’t eat what she gave me. So I said to her, “So your solution was to let me starve.” LOL! She didn’t like that at all. She called me a miserable child and then ended the call with me. She truly believed it was my fault. It wasn’t that she didn’t feed me, it was that I didn’t eat. Which was actually a revision of history too because there were many times she didn’t even try to feed me. That whole conversation just ended up aggravating me because she made it my fault.
Hey Rebecca and other readers:
Here’s my take and experience with a “pure” psychopath, not a narc. I was working at the DA office in San Diego. I did a preliminary exam once with a man who was a known Mexico drug dealer on trial for murder and believed to have murdered many. He was average height, Hispanic, with dead goat eyes. You would not be afraid of him if you met him on the street. Nothing about him was scary. Just a regular dude. But when questioning him, I felt this pressure inside. I knew he didn’t care if I liked him, or feared him. All he wanted is for me to remove myself, let him pass by. His tone was flat, mechanical, monotone, brief. Very short responses as if he mastered Hemingway. Short sentences. His eyes were totally blank. No soul there. But he was “ pressing.” Like a bulldozer. I felt this psychological pressure from him. To be honest he frightened me. I recall being walked to my car by police and I was a bit worried that I was assigned to his case. He never raised his voice, he made no threats but those eyes. I will never forget them. Like looking at a bottomless pit. No one home. I am sure the context of the situation affected me and the subject matter too. But this man had zero regard for life. He didn’t want attention, validation, admiration or even your fear. He wanted me gone from his path. All I felt in the hours deposing him was GET OUT OF my presence. I wonder… when a psychopath reaches their goal. Are they satisfied? HG? Or are they never satisfied. The goal shifts and they need another goal then another like a human black hole. ??? I think the latter. I know they feel restless, empty, never satisfied. I recall with my first husband surrounded by luxury in the South of France and he could careless. We could have been in Compton. Travel never ever interested him. Winning at poker, making money did. They are so different than most even narcs. I truly want to learn more from HGs take. What I get by personal experience is that they can treat you well unlike narcs who always abuse, devalue. There isn’t a cycle of abuse. You are with an ASPD, good. Go in front of him, very bad. It did not surprise me that the perp was long term married with kids. Nor did it surprise me that he had mistresses and killed people in his drug dealing world. I don’t think ASPD triangulate. No need. But they do compartmentalism their lives was Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde a narc or psychopath? Narcissistic psychopaths even more interesting….
Hi Contagious,
You were brave dealing with a drug dealing criminal and a violent one at that. Xx
I try not to think about the double life my brother could have lived. I know he knew people I didn’t know and went places I didn’t see. I hope he didn’t hurt anyone else, that haunts me sometimes, the thought of other victims. Xx
Hi Contagious,
“You would not be afraid of him if you met him on the street. Nothing about him was scary. Just a regular dude. But when questioning him, I felt this pressure inside. I knew he didn’t care if I liked him, or feared him.”
I think there are some people whose true personality and intent is unfathomable. At the same time, they are capable of horrific crimes that are unimaginable to a normal or empathic person. It is like they are a lethal bomb that can go off at a certain time, but it’s impossible to predict when and how. It’s frightening to think there are people like that.
It reminds me of a case in the news here recently. This case wasn’t in the spotlight but rather a smaller news item that most people would have missed if they didn’t look for it. Nevertheless, it was horrific.
It was about a man who murdered his wife. They had been married for some years and had two teenage children.
Before the murder, he travelled overseas on the pretext that he wanted to start a business in the country he visited. While he was away, his wife discovered he was having an affair while overseas. A few weeks before he returned, she spoke with him, told him she knew about the affair, and said she wanted a divorce. She said she didn’t want him to live with her and their children in the family home.
Before his return, his wife also contacted the police and said she was afraid he would kill her once he got back. The police issued a restraining order.
Two days after returning from overseas, the husband ambushed his wife by hiding in their backyard waiting for her to emerge. When she did, he attacked her with a hatchet he had bought at a hardware store hours earlier. He struck her with the axe 35 times in an attack that lasted 14 minutes. His children watched the attack and begged him to stop, trying to pull him away from her. In the process, he attacked his son with the axe striking him several times. His wife died at the scene.
If you saw CCTV footage of the man buying the hatchet several hours earlier, you would see a well-dressed, well-groomed man in his 40s who was shopping in a calm and collected manner. You would not think twice about him. There was nothing to show he was a cold-blooded murderer who would kill his wife in a fit of rage several hours later.
When he was photographed being led into court by police, he looked straight at the photographers gathered at the court and his gaze was steady and unfazed. He showed no sign of anxiety and he didn’t try to hide his face or look away. He looked utterly benign as though he thought he had every right to kill his wife and was entitled to do so. His demeanour was chilling considering what he had done.
When his teenaged daughter read out her impact statement in court, she said she’d be forever haunted by the image of her mother dying. At that, her father was seen sitting back in the court dock and smiling.
Contagious,
Your experience of the man on trial for murder made me think of this case.
Whether it’s narcissism or psychopathy or perhaps both, it’s very disturbing. While it’s possible to sense that such a person is dangerous or you feel pressure or uneasy in their presence, it’s impossible to know what they are actually capable of.
Hi Leigh,
Do you find yourself mad at your mother for not being a nurturing, caring mother? How do you drop that anger?
I find the only thing that worked for me before HG’s works, was distracting myself from trying to figure out why she acted that way, why she treated me like a redheaded stepchild, the many questions that ran through my mind.
Now, after learning more about narc behavior, from HG, and why they do what they do…I can answers a lot of those questions about her.
I also have more questions that have popped up from studying HG’s works….like did she really get molested by her brother and a neighbor, or did she make those stories up just to have a worse story than me? Would she do that? Yes, I think she could have. Did she? I don’t know. I can’t ask her now and she probably wouldn’t have told me the truth anyway. The thought of her making that up, just to one up me, is upsetting and why do I do that? Hurt my own feelings overthinking things that a normal person would have dropped and let it go. 🙄😐 xx
Hi Rebecca,
I wasn’t angry at my mother before I found Mr. Tudor. I made excuses for her behavior. I blamed it on her psychosis. That’s not to say she didn’t push my buttons sometimes and I wouldn’t explode. I definitely did. But my overall feeling for her wasn’t anger. It was pity and sadness.
Believe it or not, after I found Mr. Tudor, that’s when tne real anger appeared. I think its part of the grieving process. Now I’m at a point of acceptance. This is who she is and it will never change. There’s no overall feelings for her anymore. Not even pity.
This may sound harsh, but one thing that helped let go of any feelings for her was that I no longer wanted to validate her existence. The narcissist needs our emotional reaction to validate their existence. No thank you, I’ll pass. Lol!
I think with your mom, she couldn’t help it. You were an extension of her and since you experienced those things, so did she. They can’t help it. Its character trait acquisition. They take what happened to us and make it there own. I find looking at it like that helps me release any hurt feelings I may have about things like that.
“A 500 pound Zebu cow? I need more details, please.”
My in-laws both had many strong indicators of being narcissists. I knew them for almost 20 years, and seeing them through HG’s work explains everything that absolutely mystified and hurt me for a long time.
The cows–my father-in-law and one of his daughters hoarded animals. Zebu cattle are a bit like having a very expensive trading card hobby: nobody uses them for milk, really, and they’re too small to make sense as meat cattle. So everybody just ends up hauling them around, taking them to shows, winning ribbons, trading them, studding them out, then…what? It’s just weird.
My father-in-law collected a herd of them and had them on his property. He made problems for the neighbors and the public because he didn’t keep secure fencing. He just wouldn’t do it. The Zebu escaped into the road frequently causing lots of traffic problems and danger. They’d turn up often amongst the surrounding herds (the “real cows” as I called them) or in other people’s yards. He didn’t care. One time I went over and I had to coerce about twenty of them in from blocking the street.
He didn’t give them good healthcare; he just wanted as many as possible, just like the way he hoarded tools, cars, refrigerators, broken electronics, ATVs, you name it. But he never took care of anything and his collections made life difficult for everyone around him. He collected people also and treated them the same way.
Indoors he was remodeling the kitchen himself, and he often grifted building materials from his employer (he was the chief estimator on projects). The kitchen had five sinks, about 80 drawers, a restaurant sized refrigerator and separate freezer, another refrigerator, pounds of rotting food…and the cow. I don’t know when he installed the Zebu or why.
The last thing I remember when I saw it there, staring at me from near the pantry, was backing away very slowly. I don’t recall how I got home.
Hi Allison,
That’s quite a story! I knew it would be interesting! But I still have one further question. What do you mean about installed the Zebu? Was it a sculpture or was it a live zebu in a cage?
Hi Leigh,
I’m sorry, I meant your anger towards your mother NOW. Xx I’m sorry, I should have said currently. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
There’s no need to apologize. Currently, I don’t speak to my mother enough to get angry. Even when I think about the things she’s done, if there is anger, the feeling is fleeting. I’ve gotten proficient at reminding myself that my emotional reaction validates her existence. Once I say that in my head, any ill feelings I have quickly dissipates. Calling it exactly what it is, really helps me to draw a line.
“Now I’m at a point of acceptance.”
Good on you, Leigh!
Hi, Leigh–
“What do you mean about installed the Zebu?”
Thanks for asking. It was a living, pooping, mooing animal. In a cage. I used “installed” because that’s how it felt. The living animal was just as any installed item–like my father-in-law’s $3000 fish finder, or the pilfered granite countertops, or his pacemaker, or his mistress, or his son-in-laws, or his church membership. Everything, everyone, was a thing to him, something to be acquired and placed and subsumed into the chaos.
Allison,
Ugh! I was afraid you were going to say that. I was really hoping it was a statue though. That poor cow! Someone should cage your father in law so he could be a spectacle!
Hi Leigh,
Thank you and I’m glad to read your mother doesn’t control your emotions. Xx
When my mother was alive, I reduced my interactions with her, her last few years of her life. I had gotten tired of her manipulations and emotional abuse. I didn’t have HG’s work back then to help me think logically about the situation and our strained relationship. Like some of my friends, I had a strained relationship with my mother from before puberty and after.
I haven’t yet reached the level you have, with my feelings towards my mother. I think because new wounds have been opened, due to finding my long birth certificate. It’s discovery has stroked the flames of my anger towards her. It will take time for me to process this new wound and sense of betrayal from her.
She’s dead, but she still has the power to hurt me. I hate that and I’m working on trying to release the anger without it consuming me. It’s a battle I’m fighting now. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Ugh! If I found information from one of my parents’ past manipulations, I’m sure it would upset me as well. Its ok that you’re upset. But try not to stew in it. She’s gone and you being upset about her past transgressions only affects you, not her.
When I’m having trouble releasing the anger, sometimes it helps to talk to someone about it. Talking about it with someone who will validate my feelings about it, helps me release it. Then I’m no longer dwelling on it.
They really do have a way of coming back from the grave and sticking it to us over and over again.
Hi, Leigh–
“Someone should cage your father in law so he could be a spectacle!”
He deserves that, but I don’t think society does. He’s very–er–unspectacular. I wouldn’t want to bore good people to death.
However, the sight just might banish the addiction to narcissists. Hmm.
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for the sound advice about dealing with my anger towards my mother’s manipulations. Xx
I tend to keep it to myself and let it stew, which isn’t good either…There are a select few people who would understand my relationship I had with my mother, it’s one that only those who have experienced it, can fully get it. Xx
HI Rebecca,
I just saw this comment. I hope your feeling better about your mother’s past manipulations.
Its so true that there’s only a select few who can fully understand what its like to have a narcissistic mother. That’s why I feel so lucky to be here. The people here truly get it.
Hi Leigh,
I am feeling better about my mother’s past manipulations. I accepted them as part of my past, what made me who I am and I look at that way. My child hood is what I survived and learned from those experiences. Here, with HG’s work and all of you, I learn more and can process more of what happened and why it happened. I can make sense of it and that helps a lot with how I can cope better with the knowledge. I want to keep learning because there is more to know. I sound like a commercial, but it is true. Xx
I’m glad I can see now , more clearly, with the knowledge I’ve gained from here. It’s really liberating when you can see over the trees, instead of getting lost in the woods. Xx
Hi, Rebecca–
“Her decaying corpse is more her true face. Sorry for the image and harshness, but it truly fits her.”
No need to apologize. I appreciate the straight shooting.
Thanks Allison,
Truth is sometimes harsh, as we all know here. Xx
Hi Wisernow:
With narcs, they abuse, they devalue. I am think with psychopaths. You just never know. They don’t have empathy but they can treat you well and have stability. Rebecca shares that with her brother. I lived that with my ex husband. But you gave a perfect example of what happens when you get in their way: it’s not devalue, it’s death. You won’t see it coming. And unlike the drama of narcs. There won’t be drama. “ oh, he was the best neighbor, always so helpful.” Etc… They fit in better because they don ‘t need fuel. Did I know I married a psychopath? No. He gave me a dream come true maternity. Were things off? Yes he worked nights. He was neglectful of his troubled teenage son who went to juvie for arson. There were signs but overall life was normal and stable. He made gobs of money, we lived a rich life style. He was present and on- abusive, non- erratic and non- dramatic. Stable but I had no idea of his other life. My point is two different breeds an ASPD and a narc. You will conflict with a narc. You might not with an ASPD. But get in their way, there may not be signs it’s coming. They are cold, ruthless, planners. They don’t want your appreciation, fear, attention, or validation. They aren’t looking for mommies. They want what they want and do not get in their way. If with them in the same course, life is easy. But obstruct them. Call HG. Get protection.
Allison:
Wow! You grew up with Zebus. I had to look them up! They are HUGE. Did you like them? They are in Bangladesh, and South America and Africa. Are you from there? They are used for milk. Did you drink their milk? Father sell it? I am sorry… it’s just fascinating. No one goes “ wow, she has 3 French bulldogs.” But who has Zebus? I am certain you can quiet a party with that story. All eyes on you. I hope they got some nurture. They are said to be docile kind social animals….
Hi, Ztherobot–
Welcome! A good post to read is “The Narcissist and Marriage.” You can also use the search feature on the blog for various key phrases, such as “narcissistic dynamic” for more posts related to the overall pattern. I think an excellent playlist for you right now from the new channel is this one: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLitrastBsUbG9Xoevc0YD6otRu2QCvzdz&si=J3ABrIweRuB6Atjn.
Good to see you here!
Rebecca
Is it possible for you to still appreciate the positives you experienced with your brother and have compassion for his limitations without feeling you are embracing his psychopathy entirely? Just offering this as a way you might look at it to not lose him completely.
Hi NarcAngel,
That would be easier for me because I do love my brother and I do have a lot of positive memories with him too. My struggle is letting him go, when I don’t want to. Xx
Thank you NarcAngel,
I would very much like to do that. Keep the good memories and still love him. Thank you, NA. Xx
Rebecca, I agree with NarcAngel’s suggestion.
In my view, it is understandable when there is a sibling involved, the emotional ‘approach’ is different compared to no sibling being involved. I cannot actually ‘unlove’ my sibling yet I can look at my past with her differently, and, damn, it hurt like hell despite my suspicions of her being a narcissist (and confirmed January this year). It is interesting to share that the ‘hurt’ was more painful after the fact (after the NDC). I no longer look upon my upbringing with her as “fond memories”, just as what they are now, memories (whether happy / sad). I know, in time, the pain will lessen and ease. It’s the having no contact with her for the rest of my life (presently ET related, I know).
What am I getting at? No-one has any right to tell you to unlove your brother. You cannot undo the bond you had as a child. You cannot re-write your own past (history) but you can learn from it and learn to look at it & feel about it differently to be able to utilise the unlearning / relearning to prepare for the future as the present is about the ‘transitioning’ from the past to the present for the future.
Going back to NA’s suggestion, I do appreciate that while you are learning to understand psychopaths better through HG’s work, (in my view), it does not necessarily mean you have to change how you felt about your brother, or how you thought of him back then (in the past). Consider that you may be ‘painting’ your brother and learning about psychopaths with one brush instead of two because at present, you are still emotionally ‘invested’ in your brother (and in my view, it is not wrong)? I wonder whether you may be forcing yourself (trying too hard too soon) is partly why you are probably struggling currently on this aspect of your life at this stage in your life?
It’s all very well people saying to me that I can get another dog days after she died! Like saying, get another dog to “help” get over her death. WTF.
As I am typing this, I recalled the story of Knowing HG’s The Ice and Snow – HG revisting the lake every year with the Depeche Mode song to hand. He talked about his fury returning every time he went there. I know it is not the same emotions involved (HG’s in his story and yours in your story) yet there could be a parallel where memories are concerned, from different perspectives. Some people may never truly reach the point of not having an emotional response to such a memory. For some people, it could be everlasting. However, the impact of the emotional response(s) to the memory may lessen over time. Even if it takes many years.
Sorry that my comment is long. I do understand your current position xx
Hi Asp,
Thank you for understanding where I stand with my brother’s memories. It is difficult for me and I think maybe I am trying too hard, or partly because I’m fighting with myself about it. Xx
The lake scene with HG plays in my mind, the song, the cold, HG’s fury….it’s so clear to me and I worry when he test the ice. Siblings have a way of staying in your mind , even after death. Xx
He Rebecca, I do understand partly because of my own sibling “relationship”. There is a lot, a great deal, where your sibling is concerned. I wondered if it is more than his death (the way you found out) that bothers you. Is it because you were not prepared for his death when it happened (suddenly) and partly why you struggle with the closure on that aspect? To be fair to you, it did take me hell of a long time to get over my father’s death (partly because of my age at the time) and the matrinarc for years afterwards – it was through HG’s work I found I was able to process it properly because of the narcissistic abuse / past etc. Do you feel a sense of responsibility in some way because you were not there? It is not your fault. I know and understand you may not quite be ready yet to ask yourself these questions and thus get the answers.
I wondered whether you had talked about him much with other people before coming to KTN blog? Ie people who would understand your bereavement over the loss & the upset he caused you?
I enjoyed reading your comment about him and his characteristics. It sounded (not a pun!) like that he needed to talk a lot because he needed to not feel / sense his own ‘void’ (the boredom)? He liked to dominate by talking. Do you think his boredom led him to be always on the move, either by travelling, or, talking despite being calm about it?
I am glad you still have a box of his items to treasure while you process things. I would suggest at this point that it is not holding onto his things that are holding you back from moving forward as the items help you in some way at present. It’s a comfort to you. Because of your current difficulty in processing your emotions & thoughts.
Ok, I’ve “gabbed” on long enough about that.
As for HG, I think he is always careful despite the potential danger when he is at the lake. On HG’s part, I would suggest it is two main ‘catalysts’ – the loss and the blame – which of the two is the main factor that impacts him more when he is at the lake? When he is away from the lake, maybe the ‘blame’ is a deeper emotional ‘reaction’?
Thank you for listening & discussing, Rebecca xx
Hi, Rebecca–
I worry about him on the ice, too. I don’t want to, but I do.
Hi Asp,
Yes, I think the way he died and the way I found out has a lot to do with my issues surrounding my brother.
He was found by his roommate, after he had laid there, deceased, for four days. His roommate, like him, was a semi driver and he had just gotten home when he found him.
The police were called and my brother’s body was taken for investigation purposes. The police thought he had been murdered.
His roommate told me this, over the phone and he later dropped off some of his things to me. I was shocked and couldn’t speak for a while after hearing the news.
I called around different police stations trying to find out where they took him and what morgue he was at. They wouldn’t tell me more than that they thought he was murdered. I was so upset and horrified, and angry! Who killed my brother?! I was beside myself, I just couldn’t cope very well.
For 2 weeks, I wanted for them to do the autopsy and tell me anything about what happeend. 2 weeks of not knowing, did someone kill my brother? It was the worse waiting I ever did!
I wanted to know who it was and I wanted them executed!
After the police informed me he wasn’t murdered, the medical examinator called me to answer my questions on the autopsy.
I requested a copy of the autopsy and asked her qurstions, like why did the police think he was murdered, when he had a heart attack?
The whole experience was shocking, sudden and I still went to work, I was in autopilot mode and was so overwhelmed by my feelings that I became numb and robot like…barely functioning…it was a blur for weeks.
My brother was living with me and I kicked him out for stealing my husband’s car and doing other crazy, self absorbed behaviors and I felt so much guilt over that. I thought, if he was living me with this wouldn’t not have happened. I would have found him dead and he wouldn’t have laid there for 4 days! I beat myself up for it. Shitty sister, I called myself and worse!
His death hit me hard because I felt to blame for it.
If HG is ok with me writing this part….? I had HG look at the autopsy to see if there was anything the police missed, anything I did, or someone else did?
I needed to know so badly, to stop worrying I did it to him. The guilt was big and overwhelming.
Asp, the way he died was awful, he was alone, I wasn’t there for him. I failed at being a sister. He didn’t deserve that.
I get mad at him for dying sometimes, silly right? It’s not like he wanted to die.
I remember him saying to me, the day our father died, “It’s just you and me now and we’ll be ok.” He said this to me, while firmly holding my hand in his hands, sitting in his car, after they took Dad to the funeral home from the hospital. I remember clearly. The sunny weather, despite my broken heart, the song that was playing on the radio….you understand, everything is clear as a movie reel, but the pain makes it sharper. Xx
I think my Geyser makes it worse because it hits harder and longer and lingers in my chest even now. It doesn’t seem to want to fade and let go. It’s there to be played over and over, like a sadistic , painful carousal with Rolling Stones song, PAINTED BLACK. xx
Hi Rebecca, thank you for sharing more of your story regarding your brother’s death. It is even more understandable about your circumstances at that time (and now). It is not your fault and that is probably one of the first things you can do for yourself, is to stop blaming yourself. It is not “silly” for having some anger towards him for dying as that is a natural emotional response, part of the grief process. You did not fail at being a sister to him. You were the best he ever had. He would not have chosen any one else for the role. I’m glad you shared the autopsy report with HG so that could assist you in moving forward. Having said that, I understand how it would have impacted you for waiting 2 weeks and not knowing the full facts at that time until you got the autopsy results.
The memory, the moment you shared in the car is (now) bittersweet. Talk about the devastation of the illusion. No wonder you experience so much emotion over the results of his NDC. It is almost like mourning for him all over again to a degree.
I had a quick look at the song’s lyrics (Rolling Stones – Painted Black – how ironic!) – I can understand.
It will take time, Rebecca. You will get through it all. In time. Using HG’s words “keep reading” (his work). I’m here for you too. Sending you a hug xx
Hi Rebecca. Hope you are feeling better. In my experience, grief and death are still taboo subjects avoided even by well meaning friends and family. And no one other than professional counselors/rent-a-friends want to wade into suicide. My daughter was 8 when her dad died, making it even harder to find peers who might share her experience.
Not sure when but somewhere along the way I was directed to county Hospice. I was aware of end of life care provided patients, but I had no idea they staffed bereavement counselors and organized groups of care givers or survivors. They did have a group, albeit small, for folks who had someone commit suicide. And they directed me to regional summer camps for kids who had lost a parent. In my area Hospice foundations are well funded. There was no charge.
Getting to know other people who have experienced something similar in person, even if only for a while, was hugely helpful for us. My only caution would be to brace yourself for other people’s stories and emotions. We had to take mini vows not to quit an 8 weekly mtg sequence. Obviously the group leaders knew what we were letting ourselves in for and that we’d want to bail.
My guess is that because group was, for most of us, the only time we talked in person with other average people that our emotions were concentrated or volatile. And its painful to experience everyone’s stories, in addition to telling your own. First 2 to 4 weeks absolutely suck. You just stew in misery. Then it starts to lift.
Even if it’s been years, they understand people delay getting help for myriad reasons. If you were interested it could help to give them a call.
Glad you are talking to people here as well!
Take care
“His death hit me hard because I felt to blame for it.”
Rebecca, if I may, are you doing some specific things for yourself to dissolve the sense of blame?
Hi Allison,
Yes, I dissolved my sense of guilt, over my brother’s death, with a consultation with HG. HG helped me see that my brother’s life choices are what killed him and that he would have died in my house too because the damage had been done already. There was nothing I could have done to save him, nothing he would have listened to anyway. He lived life the way he wanted to and he was a grown man, completely able to think for hinself and be rrsponsible for himself. It helped with the guilt of him dying, but him laying there for 4 days is still upsetting to me. Xx
Hi Asp,
Thank you for your understanding, it’s a relief to be understood about my brother and the mixed feelings I have for him. Xx
Thank you for your kind words of support. I was shocked at my brother’s NDC results, I would have never expected psychopath from him. So many people liked him, he was easy to like, but he did have moments of oddness that I noticed. He didn’t get when some people were annoyed with his overtalking them, but maybe he did get it and didn’t care. That makes sense.
I was watching the Doug Kramer videos yesterday, that HG shared again, and they made me sad for Doug dying so soon, his friends and family, their grief and HG seemed to be impacted by Doug too. It was all very moving and sad. The videos they could have made….and the last live one with HG and Doug….a great loss, indeed. Xx
Asp and Allison,
The trip to the lake and HG, that scares me to think about! It scares me because I don’t want to lose another person I care about, it’s just too painful to imagine! Xx
“Some of my most illuminating “conversations “ have been with dead people.”
HG, if I may, how did these conversations meet the Prime Aims? Or was it to do more with your psychopathy in terms of assuaging boredom?
Related to my psychopathy.
Dear HG,
I imagine your illumination was due to flames? Xx
Hi, Rebecca–
I find the teddy bear thing so sinister! Forgive me if you addressed this before, but did it feel like a cursed object? As an empath, did it really just get under your skin in an intense way?
Hi Allison,
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I still love my brother, despite everything between us, but I don’t find the teddy bear thing sinister. Xx Perhaps because I haven’t fully processed it yet. To hear about psychopaths and then to live with them, they are like two different people. On paper they are scary, but in front of me…he’s my brother, the bound is there, it’s yet to be broken, even in death, I love him. Maybe it’s my empath make up, maybe it’s trauma, I don’t even know fully all the answers myself. I know I love him still. He was there, during the worse of times for me, we went through beatings together. I’d hear him being hit and I knew I was next. We sometimes were our only support, through the pain. At least it was that way for me, I felt supported with him. I don’t think I’m explaining it well. We survived together through the worse of it and I can’t forget that and my heart won’t forget that. Xx
One last thing: this Thanksgiving our children and his children will go to his multimillionaire laureates from their mobile home parks or rented apartment or my house. He will joke, make a turkey. Ask about their lives. But he never shares his money. Ever. Even in crisis like bipolar or rehab ( his first two). My daughter once said that just makes her “ independent” and she plans on being richer than him. My son says he did nothing to aid him and while respectful, he thanks me. Again, they aren’t normal but they fit in. Stable. The kids do lov him. It was easy to leave him for me.
I understand, Rebecca. You’ve explained it well.
Thank you, Allison xx
Dear Rebecca–
“I had issue with fully trusting him after he tried having sex with me.”
I think your response was entirely sensible and warranted. How awful for you.
Hi Allison,
It was very confusing for me at 12 yrs old, to have to be on guard with my own brother. My trust level was never the same again with him.
I know it was the logical thing to do, after the incident, but it didn’t help the guilt. Xx
Hey HG:
Familiar with Jamie Osuma? California killer. He had sex in 2012 for killing his IPSS and having sex with her dead body until she smelled. He has several brutal in and out of prison. Scary looking with face tattoos. He was horrifically violent to animals, children, women and men and got into satanism. He saw himself as Satan not God but many call him the he scariest psychopath ever. He was locked in a cell with only a cement bench cell 23 hours a day. He tortured mice. Everyone interviewed said they had a feeling about him. He emanated hate. Be great if you did a series on him.
I am not familiar with this individual, I shall look him up.
HG: I find it interesting like the police said in the Hare documentary that the worst violent crimes are committed by psychopaths and although only a 1 in 100 of the general population over half violent offenders are psychopaths per Hare.
1. Do you agree?
2. If both narcissists and psychopaths have no empathy why are psychopaths the most notorious or half of all violent crimes?
3. It suggests psychopaths are more violent than narcissists, do you agree?
4. And yes they can be nonviolent and fit in well with society whereas it seems to me certainly lessers do not. What’s up with that?
5. To me it suggests that it not just lack of empathy or even brain wiring ( psychopaths are born with it), or grandiosity, or motive : goals, boredom or stimulation, accumulation ( part of goal) versus the need for narc supply. Something else is going on or why are psychopaths so notorious and more likely to violence per Hare. What is it? Are the movies about them legend or fact. If fact,
6. Why? Are they more likely to than narcs to be sadistic? ???
7. Also in my personal experience, they compartmentalize maybe more or not at all like narcs, they can be a good father, husband, worker then be complete criminals on the side. You read about it in cartels or mafia etc… why is that? Many might be narcissistic psychopaths… I still don’t get it as to me psychopathy would take over,
8. But when hate says half the violent offenders in prison are psychopaths, is he leaving out the narcissistic part of it?
My experience is a pure psychopath can be a good enough husband, father, son, brother but if you get in the way, he is capable of anything and you won’t know it. You have to hope he moves on…. For whatever reason… he moves on….
wat
“The vulnerable are there to be exploited.”
How stark this is. I’m recalling times that I’ve heard people around me say variations of this statement. Usually the expression was related to justifying why they had parted someone from their money, or robbed them of trust, or why they had visited some other horror on the unsuspecting. My tendency was to feel shock; to me the vulnerable needed caring, or at least to be left in peace. I think I got into close contact with such people and stayed there because I was so tolerant of aberrant behavior.
My birth mother was a weakness beacon. It angered me. It was something I inherited from her and it made me hate myself until I rationalized it as kindness. I willed myself to believe it was kind to leave the doors and windows of my soul unlocked to keep the vandals from straining their wrists with hard work.
It amazed me and amazes me still that this is their viewpoint, but I’m trying to put aside that amazement. I think it slows me down and keeps me stuck, like an animal in the headlights. And while I’m standing there being stunned by what seems to me wickedness they’re analyzing me and cataloging my responses.
I’ve been the guest of honor at a feast unexpectedly. It was not to my liking.
No more.
Hey Allison:
My ex was broken. Forced by the government in special housing. Made to see a psychiatrist after his psychotic break. Now he is a a MLN lawyer city forever in the prison that made him and I walked away…but I don’t know whatever commodities he had. But YOU aren’t broken. You are HERE. You are in the process of unleashing the shackles and breaking free. You wouldn’t be here if stuck. It’s hard but you got it!!! Sword up! I am rooting for you! X
Hi Allison,
“The vulnerable are there to be exploited.”
In my world this is an inversion of the fair game concept. For me, someone who is vulnerable would never be fair game for exploitation in any form. However, a narcissistic smart talking sleaze of a boss might be fair game. If I could better my position by exploiting his vanity for example, I would have no issue in doing that. None whatsoever. I wouldn’t look for ‘a target’ in a predatory way but if he crossed my path and I saw the opportunity, I’d take it. He’s an asshole, therefore he’s fair game.
The predator looks for the easy target, the youngest, oldest or weakest in the herd that’s the easiest one to pick off. No prolonged hunt there, just a quick sprint. It’s definitely predatory and it’s the opposite approach in terms of fair game.
I think this article sounds worse depending on how we view ourselves. If we view ourselves as targets or potential victims then the predatory view sounds unsettling. If we don’t, then the viewpoint described becomes less unsettling and more revealing.
Something interesting I found out about psychopathy and reduced sense of smell. Sense of smell is linked to memory. Psychopaths have no emotional coding for memory. A memory would be described as a factual event that happened without any emotional element. When it comes to sense of smell, the smell recognition, the part where memory is involved is weaker as without the emotional aspect the smell information is again factual. So for me, the smell of coffee might be linked to a pleasant emotional response. It might bring up a memory of lazy Sunday mornings with a partner or a cozy corner coffee shop in winter, I might therefore associate coffee with comfort, contentment, relaxation etc. For the psychopath the smell is recognised more as, “That’s coffee. I like / dislike coffee.” No emotional stamp to make the psychopath notice the smell fully. There’s no real relevance and without relevance the smell is categorised under “less interesting / important information.”
I find this interesting but it makes a lot of sense when you think about the psychopath and the necessary triad. Psychopaths can improve sense of smell apparently. It’s a bit like remembering a person’s name. Hear the name and think of a person you know well who has the same name. Smell a chocca mocca skinny latte, think of a person you know well who likes latte and chocolate, say to yourself, “That smells like coffee with chocolate, Bob would like that.” The smell of the mocca chocca skinny latte is now attached to the memory of Bob as well as “coffee”. Apparently sense of smell can be vastly improved by using additional memory prompts / broader associations.
That ended up being longer than intended haha!
Xx
With regard to the sense of smell, I read a study some time ago which explained that the psychopaths sense of smell is not weaker with regard to the detection of the smell, but is less effective in distinguishing between smells. I also read a further suited which queried the legitimacy of the whole “psychopath and impaired sense of smell” concept, which was linked to the methodology of the research. I can tell you the position for this narcissistic psychopath. I can distinguish between smells with no impairment but my ability to detect smells is less effective compared to others. An IPPS had a remarkable ability to detect scents from some distance whereas I could smell nothing.
“With regard to the sense of smell…”
Yes, the discussion centred around the psychopath’s ability to distinguish between smells and the studies that appeared to support that. The psychopath concerned was interested in cooking and admitted that distinguishing between herbs and spices involved a conscious effort in terms of self training, naming and then committing to memory. This obviously begs the question of taste also.
Interesting that you can distinguish but report a difference in detection instead. I agree methodology of studies into psychopathy seems to be problematic and similarly, where are the points of comparison? A percentage of the population will have an excellent sense of smell or an excellent palette. Not everyone can be a wine taster for example. Those people with enhanced sense of smell could appear in any category of individual so the test group has to be representative. Your ex IPPS might simply happen to have an enhanced sense of smell so comparatively yours doesn’t seem as strong. Even within a test group of psychopaths you could argue that if they are in prison there might also be a correlation with violence or drug usage therefore potential for a damaged sense of smell. What percentage of psychopaths in prison have had their noses broken for example?!
Sleep is another one. Anecdotally it is thought that psychopaths require far less sleep. We could make a logical leap as to why that might be the case but in terms of studies, psychopathy and less sleep does not appear to correlate. Again, the sample is important. Statistically a percentage of the population will naturally require less sleep, ‘power sleepers’ will likely appear in every category of person etc etc.
For me, the problem with psychopathy is similar to narcissism. Psychopaths are not going to line up at the front desk patiently waiting to take part in a survey or a study. Getting a representative sample must be nigh on impossible so studies are often going to be questionable I think.
Better to get information straight from the horses mouth so to speak! Thank you for your response.
Interesting point re sleep TS.
Perhaps though, whomever has diagnosed them may have misdiagnosed them as a psychopath when in fact they were a narc? my understanding is, depending on what type of narc they are, the sleep patterns vary. Or could have been an accurate diagnosis and there really is no correlation.
Certainly the few narcissistic psychopaths I know (I’m not aware of knowing a pure psychopath), they really don’t require much sleep at all – too much fuel to gather!
Hi Alexis,
In terms of diagnosis for psychopathy I’m led to believe it’s a very lengthy and involved process. I agree, I would also question how many ‘psychopaths’ have been accurately diagnosed by people fully trained in how to administer and interpret the tests. I did see a discussion a while ago questioning the accuracy of diagnostic testing within the prison population for example. I’m tempted to say that some of those diagnosed as psychopaths are sometimes narcissists.
In terms of my own experience of personal narcissists, a couple of them took very little sleep, a couple slept the average 6-8 hours. I see your thinking with the Greaters. Margaret Thatcher was rumoured to need only 4 hours sleep.
I do question the toll that less sleep takes on the body. Lots of physical processes take place as we sleep from regulation of metabolism through to muscle regeneration and regulation of our immune system. I don’t understand how these systems can operate optimally with significantly reduced sleep. Possibly it’s the difference between the insomniac wanting more sleep and being unable to get it and an individual who for whatever reason simply needs less sleep. It does beg the question why those individuals need less sleep than the majority. Is it a difference in physicality, brain functioning? There has to be a reason for it but I’m not sure that reason is necessarily psychopathy or narcissism based.
Xx
Hi TS,
Your comparison of amount of sleep and psychopathy. My brother was a good example of little sleep and being a psychopath. He would stay up at least 48 hours straight often and then crash for a while and then he’d do it again. For him to stay up all night playing video games, watching movies and sometimes keeping others up, was normal for him. He had very little sleep requirements, something they noticed in the Army too. I thought it was his ADHD diagnosis, I would have never thought psychopath, but seeing his behaviors I grew up with, I see the truth of psychopath being correct for his behaviors. It’s still hard to want to accept the truth about my brother. I remember my mother had a hard time getting him to go to sleep, as a child, but he didn’t outgrow that, when others did. Xx
Hi Truthseeker! Actually there is a place where you can get free and multiple psychological tests on psychopaths, prison! Yes… Dr Robert Hare, a leader on psychopathy, is often criticized as he was a prison psychologist;) Many say his stats are skewed. For example some psychopaths don’t even commit crimes I read in the FBI profile ( another GREAT resource but again related to crime and the psychopath. It’s supposing the best resource used worldwide, especially their serial killer section. All public.) But I would never guess why the smell test? My grandmother smoked and my mother was born without any sense of smell. I imagine with psychopaths it might be unrelated or disputed, like you and HG said. It must be psychopath prison populations where doctors treat them like alien beings to test. How are they different? Hmmm 5 senses, sleep, brain imaging , pain tolerance, etc… beyond psychology. It just seems an odd thing to examine. I get the “ friends study”, “ the murderous mind “ studies, which was a study by Hare, the “social experiment” studies … but smell? Hmmm interesting….but if I was worried about my date being a psychopath, I just might ask if he sleeps, dreams and by the way how strong can you smell scents? 😉
Alexis smith hi!
My ex husband and baby daddy was diagnosed ASPD. HG has distinguished between psychopaths and sociopaths and in one of his videos he indicated more classifications exist, I think intelligence is part of it. Must re-watch BUT after two years of testing, interviews with friends, family, extended family, surprise interviews, every test under the sun ( cost $20,000), he was diagnosed by the top child custody psychologist as ASPD. ( I got 80%, clean slate on mental health.. a nurturer but she did call me a mama bear 🐻 because n her report)….So pure ASPD was my ex. No substance abuse issues either ( he dealed, but I think it was a side crime)… now, he didn’t need sleep! I do! He needed about 4 hours a night. Late to bed. Earliest to rise. He said he never dreamed. He had a high tolerance to pain both emotional and physical. Nothing fazed him. He was the decision maker and could be controlling. But the house and children were “ my job.” He brought in the money and was an excellent provider. Very traditional. I don’t mind and didn’t mind being in that roles I had the best maternity ever, loved being a mother! He was very guarded and private ( for now obvious reasons). No real friends. Just his brother who he was tight and his NYC friend Vinnie who owned a construction company, waste disposal and funeral parlor businesses. He loved loved loved food and boxing and Rolls Royces and poker. Making money was #1. Obsessed. He spoke about money every day. Now, I don’t know about his sense of smell or if a pure ASPD is the same as a “ pure psychopath.” But in 7 years, it was a stable albeit traditional marriage. If the FBI had not called me… I might have stayed married. For those curious, sex was daily but routine. Not a passionate romantic lover. So far, on that very basis, we know psychopaths differ;)
Hi Rebecca,
That’s interesting, thank you for sharing that. If studies have thus far failed to correlate a reduced sleep requirement with psychopathy then I assume that there are no more ‘power sleepers’ within the psychopath group than there are in the neurotypical group. So a small percentage of neurotypicals will require less sleep and a similar percentage of psychopaths will require less sleep. That’s how I’m interpreting it, rightly or wrongly.
So in terms of psychopaths who take less sleep, it might be a case of want rather than need. Your brother wanted to stay up and play x box and watch movies (stimulation, accumulation in terms of game levels) more than he wanted to sleep. If we assume psychopaths are not all the same any more than empaths are, then some psychopaths will be more impulsive than others, will have less self control than others and take care of themselves less than others. The want aspect of stimulation would therefore gain more traction with some psychopaths than would do the need for sleep. Sleep might be perceived more as an ‘ought to’. I don’t think psychopaths really care for ‘ought to’ certainly not when compared to ‘want to’.
If awake for 48 hours there might well be less of a choice in the matter. More, your brother’s body demanded sleep in spite of his mind, so more of a forced shutdown kind of sleep.
Pure speculation on my part but I imagine the motivation for a psychopath taking less sleep might be different than the motivation of a neurotypical. Whilst the percentages of individuals needing less sleep might be broadly similar across categorisations of people, it’s the motivations that might well be different.
It still begs the question though how your brother could physically sustain less sleep, how it became ‘the norm’ for his body. To me, it would make far more sense if there WAS a correlation between cluster B as a whole and reduced sleep requirement!
Xx
Hi TS and Contagious,
I have a sensitive nose, some smells really are potent to me, like pot, which to me me smells like skunk spray. It really makes me want to gag. I can also smell incents through the paper box they come in. I can also smell stove gas leaks, when others can’t, comes in handy when there is a gas leak. Xx
Contagious,
Rather than asking how well the suspected psychopath can smell scents, just count how many times he blinks in one minute!
Xx
Hi TS,
I think there is a connection between narcs and psychopaths needing less sleep requirements. My brother would stay awake until he crashed, throughout his life his sleep pattern was the same, awake, awake, awake, crashhhhh, awake, awqje, awake, crashhhh. My mother took his to a doctor over his sleep issues, that’s when he got diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia. At that point, the doctor blamed his sleep issues on his ADHD and gave him Ridalin(spelling?) And he took that for a while, until she read it caused learning issues and she took him off it. She was a LPN and stayed on the latest news about ADHD and she used his diagnosis to excuse his behaviors, no matter how destructive they got. Xx
Hey TS and contagious,
Thanks for your replies.
I do believe it definitely takes a toll on the body. The greaters I know ow (obviously this would not happen to the ultra) so seem to age prematurely, at least on the outside.
I wonder whether the need for less sleep is related to the lack of need to process emotions? No guilt etc. I suspect, though I couldn’t be sure that if they’re lacking in fuel or have been wronged in some way, this may impact their ability to sleep? But if fully fuelled I’m sure they sleep perfectly.
Contagious goodness confirmed ASPD and only 4 hours sleep. Interesting re his friendship with someone who ran those different businesses! Thank you for sharing. I can’t believe the FBI alerted you, this must have come as quite a shock. I wonder whether it’s the elite/somatic narcissistic side which brings about the need for fuel and response needed to the sex? I haven’t caught up with all the psychopath videos yet.
Your husband is making me think of napoleon?
TS re thatcher I can’t imagine you could run the country if you needed more than 4 hours sleep. That would be an immediate deal breaker for me hahah
Hi Alexis, hi Rebecca,
In terms of needing less sleep, the reduced emotions are what I would have pointed to as well. Lack of bonding also, no worrying about people as we would do, but a big factor for me would be lack of fear. Fear links into more aspects than I first thought. No social anxiety, plus no fearful anticipation of future events, in fact reduced anticipation altogether which would tie in to excited anticipation of positive events as well as negative. No nervousness, just preparedness and done. No remorse, no guilt, so no replaying of past events. No dwelling or self flagellation. Mentally, I agree, they have far less to process when sleeping. The lack of emotional processing requirement would also logically tie in to lack of dreaming.
I looked into sleep and what happens in each of the four stages. Emotional processing happens in stage 4 so theoretically you could argue no need for stage 4 but this falls down because stage 4 is a requirement for learning and memory. Stage 2 also involves memory processing and stage 3 is more about biological processes such as cell repair and immune system calibration as well as things like blood pressure and metabolism maintenance. Essentially the psychopath would need all 4 stages of sleep to complete crucial processes even if we took out processing of emotions.
Most people have two sleep cycles per night. Maybe ‘power sleepers’ take only one, or, maybe they pass through all four stages of sleep faster so my sleep cycle might be 3 / 3.5 hours compared to their 2 hours for example.
Not sure, the emotional processing side is what I would have bet on but when linked to learning and memory it doesn’t fully stack up as a reason for a shorter sleep requirement.
Interesting what you said about the Greaters and ageing. Frustratingly, I read that psychopaths tend to age better than neurotypicals. Basically it’s down to expression lines. They might put on a worried frown if required but it would be for the audience. On their own, mask off they would be largely expressionless. They aren’t going to be laughing at trampolining dog videos on YouTube or crying at sad news stories or films either. No laughter or expression lines around eyes and mouth and fewer overall worry lines plus no impact from stress which is a strong factor in ageing.
I wouldn’t be Prime Minister either. The sleep thing I could deal with but I couldn’t be bothered dealing with all those political narcs!
Rebecca, I read what you said about your brother buying you a teddy bear on another thread. In terms of why, I think you have to look at it in terms of the Necessary Triad and only that. Inviting you to stay with him and his wife plus you accepting, (control.) A third person in the home changes the home dynamic, (stimulation.) He buys you a teddy bear, show of apparent kindness and concern which elicits your compliance, plus it’s facade management in front of his wife and whoever you tell about the gift, (control). At any point he could ask you to leave, (control.) Also, because you accepted the invitation, you are then in debt to him, (control.). That would be my best guess as to why he bought you the teddy bear. I think we have to look at motivation only through the lense of the Necessary Triad, just as we do with the narcissist and the Prime Aims.
Xx
Thanks TS,
For your insight into my question on the teddy bear gift from my brother. Xx I understand, from HG’s psychopathy videos, that Control is as important to a psychopath as it is to a narc. I can see how my brother used the teddy bear as control over me and it did make me feel all warm and fuzzy towards him, in a brotherly way….it allowed him to have control over me. Thanks for the clarification, TS. Xx
My brother got married in 2000 and his wife left him in 2005. He only lived out of our parents’ home in those short 5 years. He moved back in with our parents and she took off to her country. He went to her country, twice, to try to bring her back with him. She wouldn’t go and he even had a Priest to accompany him and pay for both trips. He was very manipulative, when he needed to be, anyone who can convince a Priest to pay for not one, but two trips….is not dumb. He was good at playing dumb, when it suited him to do so. My mother was convinced he was slow mentally, but that’s what he made her believe, so he could use her for his purposes. She was free room and board for him, an easy meal. A psychopath using his narc mother. I can see how their dynamic worked and why she seemed to love him so much. She really believed him to be brain damged, even with all her LPN knowledge, he duped her, his own mother. I see it so clearly now. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I feel for you there. Reading between the lines, I think you want your brother to have cared about you ‘in his own way’. I don’t get this lingering feeling when you refer to your mother but I do with him. I think this is perhaps why you have more difficulty coming to terms with the truth of what your brother was.
As we learn more about the psychopathy aspect I think it will sting for you but I also think it will enable you to lay the ghost of him for good. You will begin see his motivations more clearly and as you see the world through his eyes and the people in it, I think you’ll let go of any questions or affection you have left once and for all.
Your mention of your brother’s leeching off your mother and then the priest points to a parasitic lifestyle. I struggle a bit with that aspect because narcs do similar as a result of the sense of entitlement. My thinking there is that narcs use people for the Prime Aims including residual benefits but psychopaths use people and environment for anything and everything. No ride home? Steal a car? Need a flight and a hotel? Manipulate the priest and play the faith card. Need money? Steal a wallet. Need a lot of money? Commit fraud. I think accumulation might be quite a broad term that also relates to objectives and getting needs met, any need, across the board. So in terms of parasitic lifestyle, I think it is still based on a sense of entitlement but it’s entitlement for every aspect, similar to the narcissist version but broader. Entitlement on speed with a complete disregard for the impact that may have on others or on society as a whole.
It sounds like your brother definitely had the upper hand as far as your mother was concerned. If he was painted white most of the time your brother must have run rings round her.
Xx
Hi TS,
You’re correct with what you read between my lines. My bond with my brother was stronger than the one with my mother. A lot of my love for her is wrapped up with resentment towards her. She caused a lot of the abuse my brother and I went through. If she was the hitter, she made Dad do the hitting.
It is hard for me to see my brother as a psychopath. It’s almost as hard as the bad memories, but I do see his behaviors now and I can see that HG is right and my brother was a psychopath. But, TS…what do you do when you love your brother and he’s a psychopath? He’s gone, but he left a big impression on my life. Good and bad. Xx
Hi TS,
Sorry, forgot to tell you that you’re right again. Yes, my brother had the upperhand with my mother. He was painted white a lot with her and he had her eating out of his hand a lot. She covered for him, her golden child must be protected. I know I sound jealous there, but honestly it was the way it was….she looked out for him and he expected her to. I sometimes wonder now, just how intelligent he was to be able to win her to fight for him. How manipulative he could be with her. It’s shocking when I think back on it. He mooched off of her most of his life, except for a few short years he lived with his wife. He had her paying for everything, car insurance, food, cigarettes, clothes etc, like he was still a child. He had her paying for it all, or more like Dad, because she lived off disability and Dad’s paychecks. She was a mooch too. My poor Dad, living with two moochers. How he suffered living with those two. Xx
Hey Rebecca,
Firstly I wanted to apologise to you. How you feel or do not feel about your brother is entirely your business and your choice. I read myself back and thought I sounded prescriptive as to what your feelings for your brother ought to be. There’s no ought about it, how you feel is entirely your choice now and going forward.
I know that your past with your brother still causes you pain and confusion so in many ways once the pain and confusion are reconciled then whatever view of your brother you are then left with is likely, as it should be and reflective of the person you are. We each reconcile our past, our emotions and decisions in our own way. For example, my mum is a narc, I will do right by her as she enters old age. Some would say that’s the wrong thing to do. For me it’s the right thing. I don’t love her, but I will do right by her. It’s a me thing, not a her thing. So we need to find your thing, what works for you in terms of your view of and eventual feelings for your brother.
As we all learn more about psychopathy, the mindset, the way they experience the world and people in it, will become increasingly clear. We might not necessarily feel how they experience things, but we will grasp it. As that process develops I think your memories of your childhood and your relationship with your brother will naturally be placed in a new context and I think those feelings and emotions will likely change in line with the new context. So there’s no requirement feelings wise, no ‘ought to’, I think there will just be a natural shift that will be positive for you.
You have a shared experience with your brother. Neither one of you had a stable happy childhood, both of you endured abuse. What he is doesn’t change that, it just made it easier for him to cope. What he is, doesn’t change the shared experiences. How we view events and people is a question of perspective, HG is right there. It’s your perspective on it that will alter as your understanding grows I think.
Take the teddy bear example. You could look at that and feel warmth, affection and love for your brother that he asked you to stay and bought you the gift to help you feel safer. With increased knowledge you could look at it and feel used, manipulated and resentful at your brother’s motivation for carrying out seemingly kind acts for his own benefit. Also though, you could look at it in terms of the outcome at that time. You were given a place to stay at a difficult time for you. You felt safer. The gift was a comfort. If looking at outcomes only, the outcome was positive, it’s his motivation that irks. In this sense and perhaps with other memories from your past, you might be able to identify the positive outcome, be happy about that outcome but separate it from any misapprehension you might have had about motivation. So, ” He gave me a place to stay when I needed it. He gave me a gift that provided comfort, I’m glad he did that at that point in time. He did it for his own ends though, not because he loved me.” All of that is truthful. There’s no illusion about it. How you then feel about that, how you regard your brother in light of that is entirely up to you and your feelings about it are your own.
Maybe the answer to your question is to reconcile things from an outcome perspective. There will have been positive outcomes that you get to keep, smile wryly about even, but your view as to the motivations behind the outcomes will be clear and accurate. Your feelings towards your brother will also be based on something truthful. That might be the most positive way to reconcile things as you move forward.
One thing is for sure though. As with narcissism, we keep learning. This way whatever your feelings for your brother turn out to be, they will be based on truth rather than on illusion.
Xx
Hi TS,
You don’t need to apologize to me. Xx I know the good intention you had behind your words and why you don’t want me to love my brother. I understand what it must look like from the outside. Xx
The bond is real and it’ll take some processing work for me not to love him. He was good to me for the most part, I know that’s me excusing him, but it’s true. He wasn’t all vinegar and torment, if he was, I wouldn’t have developed a bond with him. HG taught us that also, thw psychopath and narc can’t be mean all the time, then no one would stick around them.
You’re right, TS the more I learn, the more I will process and the easier it will be to let go of the memories and stop carrying them with me. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I agree, a narcissist or psychopath can’t be “red of tooth and claw” all of the time. There can definitely be positive interactions where both benefit. The problem for us I think is that usually a series of positive interactions elicits a positive emotion in us. We feel a warmth towards that person, a loyalty, a kinship, a friendship or a love. They don’t have that to deal with. They get fuel, or they get stimulation for the duration of the interaction and that’s it, they remain safe in their detachment.
Growing up, I can imagine that there would be times when you and your brother were aligned in your objective, even if that objective was simply to avoid a punishment. So it doesn’t seem strange to me that you would feel a warmth or a sense of loss when recalling those memories. I don’t see that as strange or something you have to get rid of. It’s the negative memories I hope you come to reconcile and let go of.
Xx
TS and Rebecca:
I think Rebecca gets it better… when a generous act is given to you freely and it lifts up your world how do you know the motive? If someone treats you ( and your kids) well with stability. How do you know the motive? If you feel happy, safe and safe, how do you know the motive? If the FBI had not called me after 7 years of a stable marriage and I had not filed for divorce and undergone with him 2 years of psychological testing, I would never have known he was ASPD. Were their red flags? Some but not enough to trigger me into leaving. I get why Rebecca loves him. Totally. Psychopaths aren’t narcs. Mine was NEVER abusive. Not drama. No fights They can in my opinion compartamentalize. She was his little sister. I was his wife. God knows what he did in his criminal underworld, but he treated me well. Gave me an amazing life and the best maternity ever! I saw another side when I filed for divorce but until then I felt lucky and loved. If the FBI had not called, I would have staye d married. It was as not perfect but it was a good life. My ex treated me like a queen, a bit controlling at times but well. Its actions not words they say. That’s the problem with ASPD, you don’t know. The scary thought is if they decided to kill you, you probably would not know.
You make some really interesting points re sleep TS, memory and stress. I wondered fe the memory, do psychopaths have photographic memories? If they do it would also reduce the processing time needed during sleep perhaps? And I guess psychopaths experience no stress? But greaters must experience some of their fuel lines were cut or reduced or someone threatened their control in some way? I watched an interesting documentary fe a serial killer, how he would ordinarily stutter but when he was hunting/abusing his victims the stutter would disappear completely. No idea whether he was a pure psychopath or N/P?
I recently went to an event, one which recurs weekly, though it was just an intentional one off for me. There was a guy there, who simply couldn’t take his eyes off me. Not because I’m anything special, more that my victim like qualities must have shone brightly. He didn’t blink at all and was watching me the entire evening. I had to engage with him periodically. He was very awkward and robotic with the most piercing blue eyes I’ve ever seen. During one interaction he said we should get married and he just stared and stared. I was sure to tell him I was coming back next week. I thought if I didn’t he’d have stalked me all the way home and more.
He didn’t blink at all, or at least didn’t appear to. My understanding is that predatory eyes rarely blink, similar to a crocodile. They take in a lot more of their surrounding environment than most people do. I know H.G. has written about this before re how they take in the way we move, the way we wrinkle our nose or whatever it might be. I think I have a reasonable perception of someone’s mood, even when they’re attempting to disguise if. But I certainly don’t take in the detail behind it.
Hi TS and Contagious,
I’ve been sick with a stomach bug today and I just felt well enough to get on the blog and reply to you. Xx
TS, yes my brother and I teamed up sometimes against my mother and her manipulations and punishments. We would work together against her, a lot of times it was just getting out of the house and away from her. We would sneak out, while she was distracted. Freedom from her pity plays and lectures. We would sometimes hear about it, when we got home, but it was well worth getting away from her. Those memories are funny and warm, he was such a good sneak and he taught me how to drop down from a window, without hurting myself. We protected each other often and I felt very loyal to him, despite the hurtful things he did sometimes, we had a sibling bond, at least I did and it seemed like he did too, though I know now that wasn’t the case.
Ts and Contagious,
I want to hold on to the good memories and let go of the bad. For some reason, my mind won’t let go and it’s difficult for me.
I’m glad you understand why I still love him, that’s one thing most people can’t understand about our relationship, my brother and I. Why love him? Xx
Why do we love anyone? The bond, the feelings, the past connections….it goes on. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I know what its like to love someone with no empathy. I love my narcissist daughter. You love your psychopath brother. What concerns me is by loving them, are we also excusing their behaviors and if we excuse their behaviors, will we also excuse the behaviors from other people? I find it helps me to look at ALL of her behaviors (good or bad) as manipulations to gain the prime aims. I find it helps me to draw the line in the sand. I allow myself to tolerate the manipulations from her because she’s my daughter and I love her. But they are manipulations and I won’t allow them from others.
Anyway, I understand why you want to hold on to him and why you still love him. Just remember our ET can con us and we don’t want to be conned into thinking that those behaviors are acceptable from others.
I hope you’re feeling better from your stomach bug.
Hi Alexis,
Psychopaths don’t have photographic memories. As in, that isn’t a marker for psychopathy. Some psychopaths will have photographic memories, just as some neurotypicals will. Their memories are different though. There is no emotional coding, so memories are more like bytes of data that the psychopath can refer to as required. Memories are therefore different to ours, very factual, a simple record of events, similar to their view of photographs. Without an emotional anchor, I imagine memories being more like a turning carousel. The psychopath would need a reason to stop the carousel and retrieve a memory. Perhaps a prompt, or a requirement to retrieve a piece of information for the purpose of stimulation through formulating an objective. In some ways I think their memories are not as accurate as ours, in other ways I think they are just focussed differently.
Psychopaths do not have a fear response, at least not one they recognise or notice, so there is no stress. They do have a startle reflex though as that is located in the brain stem. They will startle but they wouldn’t then anticipate the next startle as the anticipation is an emotional fear based response whilst the startle is simply a reflex similar to tapping your knee. In this sense, they aren’t in hyper vigilant mode, lack fearful anticipation, so will appear to startle less.
Lack of fear stretches beyond dangerous situations, it’s far broader I think. Lack of social anxiety for example impacts lots of arenas as does lack of stress.
In terms of the Greaters, I agree they could experience anxiety. For me this is where things start to get more blurry. Personally, I view Greaters as psychopathic narcissists, narcissists first and foremost but narcissists who, in specific situations where they experience a significant threat to control that cannot be rectified satisfactorily and in a timely fashion, will tip over into a psychopathic mindset. An example might be the very rare occasion where an IPPS escapes. These narcissists are the ones who will instigate a prolonged malice campaign. The campaign might last well beyond a new IPPS being secured. The malice campaign is objective driven, it is the desire to remove / obliterate an obstacle who was previously an asset. The malice campaign can’t really be halted, it’s more that the Greater turns his attention to other pursuits. The objective is put on ice while he busies himself elsewhere. For me, that’s objective based stimulation. The behaviours associated with the malice campaign are psychopathic. So I would suggest that as an example of a narcissist entering a psychopathic mindset and to all intents and purposes behaving like a psychopath in that specific area. That’s just my take on it, I might be miles off!
In terms of your blue eyed admirer. Studies show that psychopaths do have a slower blink rate. It’s not dramatically slower but it is slower by up to 20%, so if we were paying attention, it might be noticeable. Reasons for it are firstly, hyper focus. Psychopaths will hyper focus most often when engaged in a task, when assessing, or when manipulating social situations. Secondly, reduced emotional engagement. (Emotional arousal contributes to increased blink rate.) Thirdly, lack of social anxiety reduces blink rate in the psychopath. We often blink more frequently when nervous, excited, animated etc.
It sounds like ole blue eyes was assessing you more than anything. Psychopaths are quite like cats in that respect!
I’d love to lock on to a psychopath. I assess people intensely at the first meet too. I will lock eyes to gauge character. I don’t see the psychopath as too different in that respect, both would assess but one would be defensive and the other offensive. Without emotion I think the psychopath would notice each non verbal cue consciously, with us I suspect we notice subconsciously then make sense of it through generating emotion or a ‘feeling’. The process is therefore similar but how we experience and interpret the process is likely different.
Clever move saying you would be coming back 😉
Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Sorry to hear you are unwell. Stomach bugs are the worst, I hope you feel better soon.
Xx
Hi TS,
Thank you and yes, I am feeling better. Xx
I hope you are doing well. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I read your comment to Asp Emp about the guilt you feel. I don’t have a sibling so I will limit my input. What I do know though is that narcissists and psychopaths never take accountability for their actions. No accountability, no responsibility. Your brother made certain life choices and he alone was responsible for those choices and their consequences.
They will not be steered or influenced in any way, to allow that would threaten their sense of control. No matter what you did for your brother, how well meaning or well intentioned he would never truly be influenced by you positively or negatively.
Your brother was an adult and responsible for his own choices.
Sometimes we accept responsibility because they don’t. We hold ourselves accountable for consequences because they don’t. This is often where guilt creeps in. We hold ourselves accountable for things that were never our responsibility. Don’t pick up that load. It isn’t yours to carry.
Xx
Hi TS,
Thank you for your logical, helpful kind words. I often tell myself, when I feel bad about my brother, that he was an adult and continued to smoke cigarettes and not take care of himself. You’re right, not my fault, his choice, his responsibility. Xx
He tried making me responsible for him, like he did his wife and our parents, when he moved in with me, after our parents died.
I dealt with him for months, more than most would have and his reckless behaviors just got to be too much and I stood up and said, no more, you gotta go!
You’re right, he was an adult and my parents needed to do that years ago, instead my mother’s golden child, was an adult that hardly left the nest. My Dad felt obligated to keep him because it’s what my mother wanted and he wouldn’t go against what my mother wanted.
I was surprised my Dad results of the NDC was Normal, I expected Empath from him because he put up with so much from my mother and did what she said. She wore the pants in the house, my Dad just did what she told him to do. Narc mother do tend to wear the pants in the family, when the Dad isn’t a narc too. The narc dynamic at work. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Glad my thoughts on it were helpful.
I think normals, if they are going to leave, they do it early in the relationship. If they don’t leave then, once married and with children in the picture their emotional empathy would be strong for that family unit. To all intents and purposes their behaviour would be similar to the empath and for similar reasons.
Xx
Thanks TS,
My Dad was ensnared by my mother and she used his feelings for his family, his empathy against him. Why he stayed with her, until she died. I see how the dynamic worked with them. Xx
1) HG, is your ability to distinguish between smells especially acute? I noticed in some of your TOW videos you spoke very specifically of the various layers to her odor, whereas others only reported a general funk.
2) Is the lesser emphasis on detection versus distinction related to your natural efficiency, i.e. you simply don’t need to be as sensitive to more distant smells? I’m thinking that someone who experiences fear and emotional empathy (prey) might need a larger olfactory map to detect unseen, lurking threats, while you don’t need to owing to what you are.
1. I have the ability to distinguish between smells but as I have explained previously I would need to be very close to the source to undertake this.
2. I understand the rationale behind this observation and there may be some force in that but the difference between my level of scent detection compared to say someone with a heightened level of scent detection does not present them with a particularly distinct advantage (i.e. they might smell a scent a few seconds before I do if we are moving towards the source) because ultimately the scale of human scent detection is woeful compared to certain animals.
Hhm. Recall reading that U.S. soldiers were easy to pick off in Vietnam in part because they showered too often.
Well standing under running water rather than being alert would make you rather more vulnerable!
Probably. I think it was washing off jungle funk camouflage and strong soaps scented unlike anything in the environment. Made our guys easy to sniff out apparently.
That makes sense.
Didn’t read it. Had to think a minute. Most my 20s I lived with a vet. For the record, a genuinely nice man. Not one of the problem people that came along later. He didn’t talk about serving in Vietnam much but when he did the experiences he shared were strange and surprising, not Hollywood. He was the one that told me one of the first things he learned was not to bathe so as to stay hidden from the enemy. Of course he hated it. Also refused to work under ground when he came home to the copper mines because it reminded him of tunnels.
Rebecca: There is an excellent series by Robert hate on Netflix…when he was categorizing them. They were 20% of the prison population where he did his work and then claimed 1 out of 100 in general but half of all of violent crimes. The worst violence the cops said was the psychopath. They also said they know right from wrong and are capable of not committing a crime with a cop there.Hare follower in this movie says OJ was psychopathic but he mentions narcissism too. LAPD sent a cop trained in psychopathy into arresting OJ. . The interviews are the best! To me, the psychopaths were like talking ChatGPT. So knowledgeable. Nonstop talking about how they reformed. One raped 4 year olds. He was baby faced and went on and on like an encyclopedia of what he would not and should not discuss if released. But in this movie they cut out the sound and you can see no emotion at all behind the words. But it says like HG many aren’t violent but wear suits and thrive in business world. An example is as a guy who wanted to be VP. He kissed the ass of the president and led everyone to believe that he had inside know how. People opened up to him and led him to discover the vp had an affair so he befriended the mistress while spreading rumors of the vp to replace him! Hare calls them beguiling and that they appear surprisingly normal but they monitor others nonstop to give the right response. No empathy or compassion. Interesting he finds america v Canada psychopaths different. US are more overt. Hare says emotion is like being colored blind. Zero you can do. Brain is different. Some come from loving homes , others horrid. Doesn’t matter. Hare says born with. Genes and predisposition. Born with it. And no treatment , they repeat. Treatment or not. High recidivism. The suggestion is replacing the brain with microchips to prisoners who they can’t treat. Child psychologist medley basically said while you can’t diagnose it … early intervention needed. So it’s a moral issue to change the self especially children…psychopaths intellectually know right v wrong but they have a brain biological difference. They can’t use emotional material. As HG says low emotions. But should we change their brains in prison , via brain surgery and new technology, change their selves…to reduce violent crime, crime??? That’s how it ends. Thoughts?
Hi Contagious,
Psychopaths in prison, or out of prison are humans and have rights. I don’t think forcing brain operations on psychopaths would ever be allowed now, in the past medical doctors were more free to do what they wanted to mental patients and prisoners, now there are laws, which I know, you know and the laws are there to protect each person. I don’t think a psychopath would volunteer for such an operation, even if they were aware of their psychopath….I think especially being aware, they wouldn’t agree to it.
I honestly, if my brother were alive today, I wouldn’t want anyone operating on his brain either. He wasn’t violent, they all are not violent. Like people in every category: Normal, Empath, Narcissistic, Narcissist and Psychopath, they are not all violent, they have the potentially to be violent, but not all are violent. Xx
If you are speaking about the serial killers and serial raptist? I feel they need to be locked up, can’t be fixed or healed, they’re too violent to be out in society, so keep them locked up. No surgery will heal them, help them or fix them. Turn the key and throw it away. They do not get a turn, they do not collect $200. Xx
Is this why some store dead bodies for long periods unaffected?
That’s for somebody to talk to.
Oh my HG! That’s more grotesque than I thought!
Some of my most illuminating “conversations “ have been with dead people.
Christ!
Christ? That’s as good an option as any, I suppose. Maybe the most talked-to (or talked-at) dead person of them all. Illuminating in more ways than one.
“Some of my most illuminating ‘conversations’ have been with dead people.”
Have you ever attended or performed a post mortem HG? The pathologist kind, not the relationship kind!
Attended.
Well there you go! You would need to have a diminished sense of smell if storing decomposing dead bodies over a long period of time! You just cracked the code Sherlock;)
“Attended”
Ooh! Thank you for answering HG.
Fascinating. Thank you, sir.
You mentioned in “When This One’s Wife met HG” that she smelled “funky.”
1. After she departed from your group, could you still detect the funky smell for a little bit?
2. Do colognes/perfumes when worn heavily bother you?
3. Do you wear any specifically scented product?
Thank you for your time, sir. Much appreciated.
1. No
2. Only if I choose to use its heavy use as bothersome.
3. I do. Are you arranging my Christmas presents? How kind!
I think I heard HG mention previously he wears Creed?
Thank you, sir. Much Appreciated.
How do Tudorites send presents?
I was curious about what you wear as you have mentioned imagining that Sam smells like jasmine or something nice.
Hi Dani,
Here’s a comment from Mr. Tudor where he states he wears Viking by Creed. Its from 2019 though so he may be wearing something different now. It could still be in the rotation though.
https://narcsite.com/2016/01/26/perfect-scents/#comment-272492
It remains in rotation. Today I am wearing Millésime Impérial Creed.
Dear HG:
Out of my sincere gratitude to you and this is real, I would give you for Christmas:
1. Creed, as it is what you wear. In fact Creed Aventus would be my first choice for you.
2. Front row tickets to see a classical concert at Royal Albert Hall this December and tickets to the Victoria Albert exhibit on Cartier ‘s entire collection in advance.
3. A gift certificate to Fortnum and Mason this December. The Savoy- too crowded outside.
4. Flying lessons or a leased plane for a weekend flight from London to Manchester to see Man City play this December. My plastic surgeon friends love to fly ( narcs/ psychopaths? Narcisstic psychopaths… great time for the restless)
5. A first edition copy of Matilda (only to influence you on the power of empaths)
6. And a an ultrasonic cleaner for glasses. They are the best!
7. I could throw in a pre-tipped personally selected dancer in SoHo but you don’t need that…
Now all you have to do is provide your name and mailing address!
And if not, these are gifts I would give you but knowing your privacy concerns…. instead I will continue to enhance my education and support you by everything you put in the knowledge vault and keep referring my friends to you for consult! They thank me! And I thank you!
Sincerely and with warm holiday wishes,
Contagious
I do not appear to have received my gifts!
Thank you, Leigh. Thank you, Mr. Tudor.
From Fragrantica:
“Millésime Impérial by Creed is a Woody Floral Musk fragrance for women and men. Millésime Impérial was launched in 1995. Millésime Impérial was created by Olivier Creed and Pierre Bourdon. Top notes are Sea Salt and Fruity Notes; middle notes are Sicilian Lemon, Bergamot, Iris and Mandarin Orange; base notes are Sea Notes, Musk and Woody Notes.”
Oh, HG, you do sound delicious.
I know. Some would say irresistible.
HG I am in London n in 2 weeks my f you want some gifts. Just give me your contact details:)
I can provide you with the details of a gate keeper if you wish, send me an email.
Contagious–
I think if you email Mr. Tudor and ask him, he will send you an appropriate address. He thanked Tudorites for his presents this year, which would indicate that people are able to send presents. And he will provide signed books–as long as people understand that it will take time (owing to him travelling frequently). They just have to email him. I think I remember him saying he has someone else pick them up for him.
Well HG then empaths should do well with perfumers or “ the nose” careers;)
Plus there might be benefits to not detecting certain scents;)
Smells a bit fishy to me!
Hello dear Rebecca:
You say your brother wasn’t stable but he got out of the military, he was a fireman for decades and he drove swims. All take skill and commitment. My narc ex had 9 jobs. He kept falling out. Again oh gosh the similarities… my ex talked and talked. He was often funny and people liked to listen to him. I am both a talker and a good listener. My ex controlled the remote control so we watched what he watched. No need for subtitles. I don’t care about tv, I am a reader so not a problem. I would read. Same with my narc husband but the difference was the psychopath didn’t care. The narc wanted me to engage with whatever he was watching even if boring cricket. There’s a line: no one remembers what someone said but they remember how you feel. I felt good with ASPD until we divorced ( I got in his way). Once over, smooth sailing. Whereas with my narc, it was up and down, highs and lows… happy days until ABUSE. And they always abuse. It’s like narcs can’t help but regurgitate their inner unwellness onto you. They bring you down. I get it, why you still love your brother. He made you feel good despite what he did with others. It’s hard to take your personal experience and compare. Ted Bundy’s brother was shocked to hear about his crimes as he was always good to him. I am not meaning to compare Bundy to anyone. But the point is they treat others different. They compartamentalize. I wonder if an an ASPD is like a schizophrenic with an independent compartments if personality? I’m mean how can one be a treasured albeit not perfect husband and father, or brother yet be violent or engaged in criminal acts outside the family? It’s at best confusing.
Hi Contagious,
I wonder what made the psychopaths in our lives choose to be mostly good to us? Not that I’m complaining, I want to know why some people they pick to be mean to and others they don’t? Xx
Hello TS and Rebecca:
TS: To be honest, he liked sex and I believe he expected it. I give you a 10,000 square mansion, your rent is sex daily. He was mechanical in bed. I don’t see any narcissism in him. I agree with the top psychologist who diagnosed him: ASPD.
Rebecca: since we are one of the few with intimate psychopaths in our lives. I get it. The thing is they aren’t abusive ( unless you get in their way) or dramatic. They can be perfectly nice. My ex called me “ boo – to ful” NY C Brooklyn accent everyday. He took my on trips, out to dinner, flowers, never involved or intervened with childcare. I LOVED my life and maternity. We had gardeners, cleaners, Nannie’s. He bought me an SUV for the 4 kids. Two of mine, two previous. He loved my cooking, we saw his parents, my friends loved him. Sex life was regular. No drama. Never ever raised his voice or was verbally abusive. No silent treatments. He made turkey every Thanksgiving. He lied to me but said he converted to Christianity although Jewish. He attended church and the baptism of the children. Stood up. Raised his hand. Said he believed in Christ. Came to church. Donated to causes I felt important.. 7 years. Stable. Were their signs? He was manipulative. Controlling at times. No exes of mine allowed in his house. Where are you going? When will you be back? During birth he sat next to the nurse and told her to stitch me up tight. He watched.After birth I could not have sec, he brought this woman home with a gift for my baby. I knew. I said never bring her here again. He said “ done.” He only slept 4 hours a night. I have off the shelf crazy dreams which he described as my “ love of death, my connection with the great beating.” He didn’t dream. When the FBI called me in and I told him. I told him I had to divorce him as I would not go to jail and I would not lose my license of children or freedom. He changed. He sued me for full custody saying I was delusional ( I was imaging the coke, the crimes etc..). He told me he would put the children and me on the streets, and held a gun to my head saying it would solve the problem like JFK. I lived in 10,000 s square foot of fear. Lying down with my arms around my babies thinking no woman should fear for her life. I contacted every DV organization and attended but no one had an answer “ would he kill me?” I spent 150,000 on lawyers before doing a better job representing myself and I filed motion after motion. He refused a drug test. The laws had changed. I gave up on all rights to money quickly but not the kids. He hired private eyes, paid off security, and the final moment came when I was moving out. He showed up. He tried to stop the movers. He stood ten inches from my face and threatened my life. I knew he carried. But I looked at him and said “ I am leaving. Do your worse.” And then I was surrounded by the movers. All probably felons who offered help. We left. The court case ended, I got80% because she diagnosed him as ASPD. I was so upset as then I thought all psychopaths were Ted Bundy. But she told me “ criminals can make good fathers, let her be his princess. You will give them all the love and nurture they need.” I said but he is rich. I am not. She said while children gravitate to the money they will always come back to the love.She was right. Very smart. And my daughter is his princess. They both favor me despite his money. We never spoke again but we both showed up, we did our part and the children are happy, loving, smart, independent great kids. But all his kids love him! It’s not just the money and he has been neglectful beyond words to his first two. One is bipolar. He kicked her out at 8 despite a 10,000 square mansion full of rooms. She got disability. He loves government aid to his kids on in paper he is a pauper… his son went to prison at 16-35. Yeah he got him a lawyer but let him be. No aid. Yet they love him. He shows up by calling, insisting on family time in the holidays, gives them average gifts but to them he cares. He is funny. Calls them nicknames. Gives them advice. Honestly on average his is a regular dad. They LOVE him, it’s not all about inheritance but that helps. But Rebecca, I get it. Pure psychopaths fit in. They aren’t dramatic like narcs, they don’t abuse unless you get in their way, they can be stable in some ways like communication, no word salad, games or silent treatments. My ex was funny, wealthy, charming and attentive to me and the kids. He was stable until the FBI called me. Manipulative, controlling… yes. But to an extent I would run? No. In short, I totally get why you loved your brother. There aren’t abusive in my opinion unless you stand in their way. They can be charming and funny and attentive. In my case, very attentive. Their lies often match your needs. I didn’t know about a lot of his unfaithfulness and definitely bit his crimes. They are in my opinion the best liars on earth! But day to day, easy. In time, I forgot the divorce and privately thank him for a stable 7 years and he was not a bad dad. He was actually good to this very day. How odd to say about a psychopath but true!
Hi Contagious,
I’m so relieved you understand where I’m coming from, psychopaths don’t come wearing horns and chasing people with chainsaws. No, they can be good Dads, good coworkers, good neighbors etc, until you get in their way and then, watch out! You see the other side. For some reason, I didn’t see that violent side to my brother. I was more fun to toy with, more useful to him for a place to live and basic necessities of life.
I thought for the longest time my ex husband was a psychopath, but he was an ULTypeB Elite Narc. He was more abusive and manipulative than my brother. Xx
Hey dear Rebecca:
Thank you! I knew it! Narcs are so much worse than pure psychopaths! ( unless you are in the way). On a day to day, easy. An upper lesser type B! Oh Lord that could not be easy. It’s clear to me you loved your ASPD brother and I loved my husband. Often i think they live double lives. You didn’t know about the violence. I didn’t know about his affairs but his first wife confirmed he can’t be faithful. I had no idea about his crimes but the FBI called and during the divorce, I raided his office and know all but kept my smart mouth shut. The third parties in NY were much more dangerous than him. I think ASPD compartmentalizes their lives. They aren’t at all like narcs and I have known both. They don’t need others. They may choose you or are born into you and in my case, it was marriage, but they aren’t going to engage in drama or game playing. They are stable in some compartments of their world. It’s why they fit in and are easy to be around. Nothing and nobody and I mean nothing fazed my husband. Was your brother like that? Routine, calm, stable. ? My husband was so funny when married. my family and friends adored him. The best host. But no one liked my narc husband from the start. My best friend said he is handsome British and nice but there is something “ not normal about him. “ I think it’s that he had to be the center of attention and he was paranoid. My ASPD was not paranoid but logical. But offput. He is nice and he said to me once that @there are undesirables around so we must be private about where we live. I didn’t know what he meant but he was careful to question me on whoever came to our home. Whereas any man from the plumber to my teenage son’s friends were hitting on on me per my second husband who accused me of fancying them. Wtf. Big dramas of unfounded accusations. While in the divorce process two clients have received friend request’s from him. Again, wtf? My first husband ASPD never contacted anyone I knew or me. No Hoovers. Zero communication post divorce. Relief. There are overlaps. Control. Check. Manipulative. Check. No empathy. With an ASPD you would not see it as clearly but it pops up. Check. But no drama, no illogical games. No pity plays. No blame shifting. No silent treatments. No word salad. No drama unless you get in their way. Sorry they are easier! And easier to tolerate but maybe you are in a compartment of their lives that make it this way! BUT with my ASPD, I could have been jailed as a non-innocent spouse, lost my career and kids. They never got him. And I divorced him. The risks were greater.
Rebecca, do you think your brother was aware of being a psychopath? Did you find him strange while you were growing up? (Mr. Tudor has repeatedly relayed how his siblings treated him like an “alien.”)
Hi Contagious,
My psychopath brother was calm, but he didn’t have a stable work life. He was a Army Vet and a volunteer fireman for 25 years. He was also a long distance semi driver. Xx
He kept getting fired from the semi companies, but he would just find another one to hire him. He wanted me to come with him, on some long distance trips in the semi. He said, he wanted my company on the road. I didn’t go because I had my job responsibilities at the bank.
He wanted to teach me how to drive a semi, while on the road with him. I told him , No way! Not on the open road! I’d be way too nervous and he’d get in trouble letting me drive. He wasn’t concerned at all about getting in trouble. I was the nervous nelly, the worry wart, while he didn’t worry at all. Like you said, nothing really bothered him.
Even when his wife left him. He was like, I’m going to her country and bring her back, like he was talking about picking up food at the store.
He talked a lot, whenever we would watch a movie, we had to have the subtitles on, otherwise you can’t know what the actors are saying over him talking. He would even call out plot flaws and say, that couldn’t happen, that’s bs! He loved to talk, not listen to what people had to say, he liked to dominate the conversation.
He was well liked, despite his gift of gabbing. Most people found him funny and easy going. Sometimes he would complain about property tax, when he didn’t own property at the time and he would complain about politics and the like.
He died in 2013, but I still remember his laugh, his smile and the day I found out he was found dead in his bed. I push that raw memory back, because even now it still hurts me. I have a box of his most important things, like his phone and jacket he wore a lot. I cherish the box of his things, it’s all I have left of him, that and my feelings and the memories. Xx
Hi Dani,
I hope you see this reply. Xx
I don’t think my brother thought he was a psychopath. We didn’t really talk about his behaviors because at the time, I didn’t know what he was either. He wouldn’t have thought he was a psychopath. I’m not sure he thought he was different. I did. I thought it wasn’t normal for a brother to want to have sex with his sister. Xx
I had issue with fully trusting him after he tried having sex with me. The family counselor we had didn’t mention psychopathy and mother didn’t tell me any diagnosis with him, except ADHD and dyslexia.
We didn’t talk about his odd behaviors and I just felt that’s him and how he is. I didn’t think he was an alien like person. I couldn’t understand why he wanted to have sex with me. That confused me and I thought it was something with me, like I was weird instead of him. I blamed me for that and I didn’t understand it.
I know now it wasn’t me and it was part of his lack of boundaries recognition and sense of entitlement his psychopathy gave him, nothing to do with me. Xx
Hi Rebecca, I saw your reply. Thank you. I’m glad you know that that his behavior wasn’t your fault now. Too many victims blame themselves or wonder for too long what happened to tgem.
I know I can smell people from quite some distance, sometimes in their cars.
Hi Allison,
I find certain isles at the super market have odors that are so strong that I hold my breath i fog i need something down them…laundry detergent and shampoos and some others too…strong colognes/perfumes…some people just super duper overdo it.
Amen, Dani! I’m so fast in the laundry aisle. Cloying florals.
I really wonder if there is something about empaths and our sense of smell, with its connection to memory and all that.
I use to have to change pews at Mass if someone sat too close wearing perfume. It’s not as bad since Covid; I lost my sense of smell for 6 months, and when it returned, it wasn’t quite as keen. Since I’m not a professional perfumer, frankly life is easier this way.
Interestingly, I tried to recreate a discontinued perfume just using the notes listed on Fragrantica, and came awfully close the first time I did it. Couldn’t duplicate it quite as well the next time.
Yeah. Our reverend asked people to back off weekly once the doors were closed and the heat turned on. Helped a bit. Older folks tend not to be aware that their senses are diminishing and ‘scent up’ to the level they mistakenly think they’ve always done. Good luck finding someone willing to diplomatically ask Nana to dial it back. Masks actually help.
Wow Allison! Some people become perfumers or the nose. Pays well! I have 3 Frenchies. Sometimes I wish I had diminished sent!
I’ve considered the profession.
Around age 13, tried to power through chores before mom got home. Dumped a gallon of bleach in the toilet. Ammonia for the tub, counter tops, mirrors . . . Pretty sure that’s when I destroyed my sense of smell. Possibly my attention span as well. Managed to throw open a bedroom window to lie beneath before throwing up or passing out. At least the other four senses more or less survived.
Oh no! I wonder if the fumes mixed in your lungs for chloramine gas.
Thanks Alison. My self parenting style was go ahead, touch the hot stove. It works. Never mixed those two chemicals again.
Also. Did you see Poor Things? Bella is the goddess I’d chose to be in my next life.
Niffty and Allison,
Don’t mix bleach and cat urine= mustard gas = dead empath, but clean litterbox, not recommended. Xx
Only thing that gets ornery cat piss out of laundry is Borax. Otherwise indestructible odor.
Even though my sense of smell is very poor, strong aerosolized toxins retain their ability to alert me via watering eyes, a drippy nose or ticklish throat. So I can still confidently nod yes when asked ‘do you smell that?!’
Oh my gosh, Niffty! This is why I never let me children clean. I was always nervous that they’d mix something they shouldn’t. Glad you were ok.