I Object


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My kind regard you as objects. We consider you as appliances which are there to serve one function; to obey us. The world must revolve around me. I am the centre of the universe. I must have this as a constant. By ensuring that the world revolves around me, I receive the fuel which enables me to exist. I am able to exert the control which ensures the fuel flows. I receive the traits and additional benefits which I deem necessary and to which I regard myself as entitled. In order for these things to happen and in order for them to continue I require total obedience. If I wish to boil some water, I place it in a kettle. I press the switch and the kettle performs its function until the water has boiled and then switches off. If I want more boiling water at a later time, I repeat the process. The kettle will always function for me. I press the button. It responds. It boils the water. It does exactly what I want. It does not challenge me. It does not refuse to boil the water. It does not begin to boil the water and then part way through stops and switches off. It does not make the water colder. It does not turn the water brown. It functions. Of course, over time, the kettle may develop a fault. It no longer functions as I want. It is a simple matter. I either repair the kettle or more likely discard it and replace it with a newer, shinier model which functions as I require and demand.

Your role is to function for me. You are to provide me with fuel. You are to do things for me. I expect that this should happen when I demand, at my say so, without hesitation, objection or in part performance. I require optimum performance and response. I must dehumanise you and reduce you to the status of an object in order for this to happen. I must also objectify you because in my world, nothing exists outside of it but me.

There is a type of empath that, to put it simply, feels in tune with the world and its energy. The empath is, if you will, plugged in to the world and therefore feels shifts in energy, both good and bad. They are especially attuned to everything around them and therefore they “feel” on a higher level. I of course do not equate to this as I am no empath, but this is what has been described to me. It has also been remarked to me that my kind and your kind are at opposite ends of the same spectrum. I see the force in such a proposition. Whereas there are those that feel attuned to their environment and that they are part of that environment, I, on the other hand, regard the environment as part of me. I must shape the environment, control it, dominate. It must be subjugated to my needs. That is why I am obsessed with the notion of control. This is why each and every situation I find myself in must comply with what I require. You are also part of the environment and it follows therefore that you must form part of me. This is why my kind fail to see you as separate and distinct individuals, but rather as objects which are plugged into us and assimilated into us. You are there to serve me. I am there to control you. In order for this state of affairs to be created it is necessary for you to be seen as an object. If I regarded you as an independent individual, possessing your own desires, thoughts and actions, this would cause me considerable concern. I would be repeatedly fearful that you would be “do your own thing” and therefore you would fail to provide me with what I need to exist. Thus, my kind and me, reduce you to the status of an object in order to remove this sense of independence and this in turn removes the fear of you failing to malfunction.

This is why when you challenge us in some way or you assert your own independence and identity, our reaction is severe. Not only are you criticising us by suggesting we do not have you under control, thus igniting our fury, you are also attempting to assert that you are not an object and this threatens our environment and our control. Such a threat results in a severe response on our part in order to get you back into line, remove your independence, erode your sense of separation and assimilate you back into our function and control.

     Your objectification is a necessary device to enable us to assert control over you and our environment so that our needs are met and our existence is preserved. Since we regard you as part of us, if you try to break away from us, it is as if our hand is being severed from us. In order to assimilate you we must erode any sense of independence you may have. This is why our various manipulations are designed to wear you down so that you no longer have the energy to rail against us. This is why our various machinations are designed to condition you to act in the same way over and over again, just like a machine, so that you become reliable and predictable. We make your world chaotic so that we become the only item of stability. Our behaviour will appear random and arbitrary but we remain there, a constant in your life and this forces you to cling to us and in our minds this causes you to be subsumed within us. By generating an unstable environment around you, we want you to move into the stability that we represent by remaining a constant.

     Our inability to empathise is also crucial in your objectification. Since we feel no need to care or exhibit compassion this also makes it far easier for us to regard you as an object and thus fulfil the requirements I have described above. We feel nothing towards you in terms of caring for you. If you do not function, we will hate you, we will feel fury towards you, frustration and jealousy that you may be functioning for another, but not us (for example giving your emotional attention (fuel) to somebody other than us, even though that person does not need your fuel, that does not matter to us, the fact is, we demand it). Our feelings towards you, since we objectify you, are akin to the annoyance that a car will not start. Jealousy that our neighbour’s lawnmower is more effective than ours. Hatred towards the drill that does not drill straight. Our reactions to these objects for not functioning are exactly the same as they are towards you when you fail to do what we want, and this in turn continues to increase the sense of objectifying you.

     Our objectification of you is brought about through several mechanisms. As I explained above, if the kettle stops working, I discard it and get a new one. Thus you are treated as dispensable and if you stop providing me with fuel, I will discard you and replace you. I seek total control over you in order to deny you the ability to make your own decisions. Not only will I tell you what to say and do, I expect you to always comply with what I want, placing my needs above your own. By denying you this independence of decision-making, I further objectify you. Since I exhibit no concern for your feelings, this is a considerably dehumanising action which increases your objectification. Owing to my massive sense of entitlement, I treat you as I see fit. Just like a plate. I may wash the plate, polish the plate, smash the plate, scrawl on the paint and so on. I do what I want to the plate because I own it and it is mine to do with as I see fit. I maintain the belief that I own you and thus I can do to you as I see fit. I have no regard for how you feel about the way I treat you and this, allied with my ownership of you further objectifies you. I consider you as tool which has been supplied to serve my purposes. You provide me with fuel, you give me money, you make me dinner, you provide sexual gratification, you do my laundry, you look after the children and so forth. This is expected and again by treating you as an instrument in this fashion, your objectification continues.

     All of these various ways of regarding you and treating you combine to have us regard you as an object but also to have you feel objectified to. It is a two-way process. Not only do we see you as an object, we want you to feel like an object because then you are more likely to function in the manner which we require.

Objectifying you serves a considerable purpose to us in ensuring that you provide us with what we need, you remain under our control and function accordingly. It is also useful as a means of provoking fuel from you because you will become angry or upset at being treated this way and have your sense of identity violated. Furthermore, it enables us to erode your self-esteem because we all seek validation of what we are from other people (indeed my very existence relies on this) and therefore if we invalidate you by treating you as an object, we remove your self-esteem, start to crush you which further means you are less likely to escape and evade our control.

     The need to objectify you is crucial to our existence. We deploy various methods of bringing about this objectification. We see you as objects, we have to see you as objects and we treat you as objects.



81 thoughts on “I Object

  1. Melyssa says:

    I’m having a really hard time wrapping my brain around all of this….
    I’ve been with him since I was 17….
    Now 35. We have 2 children, 25 and 9….
    9 year old with special needs, requires full care. I’m a total empath, with daddy issues. We were best friends for 2 years before we dated. I feel like he changed….
    Or was he always this way? Are narcs born Narc’s?…. or do they change?….
    He started going to the gym about 5 years ago. Was I blind? Has he always been this? How can you not feel any empathy towards your wife and your special needs child????….
    This is real life shit! Our daughter will always require full time care….
    She’s never spoken….
    We have real issues! And all you can think about is fuel?!?!!
    I can’t understand this. I’m hurting as his wife…
    I want to be released. Please tell me how. I don’t have the energy for him and my special needs child. Please if there’s any heart in you….
    Tell me how to remove him from my life.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I certainly can, the best way to do so is to organise a consultation.

  2. Kerri says:

    HG Help!!! what narcassist am I dealing with? He tried to kill me 😫

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Kerri, all of our kind have the capability to kill although this only arises from a significant loss of control because we would rather (despite what we may say) have you alive and providing us with fuel. Was the attempted murder carried our with his hands or a weapon? Did he erupt in front of you or ambush you? Did he say anything as it happened? This will give me a better idea of what type you are dealing with.

  3. Lisa says:

    Indy , thank you , yes it’s the depression and or dysthymia version of bi polar I was referring to , due to his constant claim of being emotionless and manic depression .

  4. Lisa says:

    Hi Alex, yes it is difficult as the whole thing coming down to, do they feel empathy is very hard to tell. Mine was completely self absorbed and very selfish however is that lack of empathy . I can say I seen him cry , he loved animals , he said sorry a million times each time we broke up taking full blame. He also said to me there’s no point you trying to understand me , as I can’t understand myself . He also said that he didn’t feel good about messing me around and realised how confused I was by the way he is. But once you start reading about all the gas lighting that goes on and the wedges (different forms of discards) whilst leaving the door open . It’s impossible to know how much is all an act. I think my posts last night accusing bi polars of having narc traits maybe offensive to people. But my point was simply that all of these disorders are difficult to pin down unless they are willing to seek a lot of medical help. Bi polars and borderlines will have extreme black and white thinking and do devalue and discard as well as other erratic behaviour that is very destructive to the person trying to have a consistent relationship with them. Avoidants also sabotage relationships for no reason through fear of abandonment . Mine could be anything !! But the one thing that stands out that he said to me numerous times is he had a relationship with a woman who he described as she was nuts (no surprises there) as all his exes were nuts according to him . Which is a huge red flag. But this particular one he accused of being a narcissist he said he didn’t know what one was but had googled it. He also said he really loved her and she controlled him and he had to end it but it took a long time for him to get over it . His whole story is based on he’s terrified of relationships due to all the nut case girlfriends he’s had. If this story is true he could be a borderline or is it that she is the one girlfriend that was actually on to him and she accused him of being the narcissist and that story has been turned around . I’ve caught him out on lie after lie . But the only think he ever admitted to was manic depression and he has been to the doctors many times regarding depression . (He never called it bi polar). But whatever he’s got , makes him a liar , a cheat , an abuser , a user and unstable emotionally and the ability to just end the relationship with no signs of remorse or regrets . So narc is looking more and more likely and a lot of acting going on when I was with him. But the fact that he’s never been violent or really nasty (some devaluation when I’m telling him about his behaviour or critising him ) and no chasing or stalking or trying to get me back . Maybe he didn’t even like me much in a narc way . Maybe I was a useless appliance 🙄🙄🙄

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The use of physical violence or lack thereof is not a hallmark of narcissism per se but is more indicative of the type of narcissist you are dealing with. There is plenty of time yet for the hovering, it is too early to draw any conclusions from that.

    2. Poetic_Me says:

      In my mind it is better to be not just a useless ( you are not) appliance, but No appliance at all. To accept Onself as an object is to forfeit all that one is to relinquish servitude to another. Who thinks no more of you then the shoes he wears to step over and on you with. Perhaps my self esteem may be low at times due to life circumstances, but my self worth is high. We need to assert and stand up against any form of objectification. It is prevalent towards women, even in this manner by Narcissists. Once we learn, we know and hopefully are no ones toothbrush again.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Ha ha but what if I’m a blue toothbrush and you’re a pink toothbrush?!

        1. Poetic_Me says:

          Then we would both be objects, wouldn’t we? Not just one of us. In that scenario, I would be purple , not pink. We would both serve the same purpose. Not just one of us servicing the others mouth. That did make me laugh, HG. Thank you.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes but I would be electric though.

          2. Poetic_Me says:

            Inserts drum roll to your boom tish 😏

          3. Poetic_Me says:

            I’m at least six inches long. I love it wet and foamy when I get to do my job. What am I? And on that note, I shall take my leave.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            A loofah.

          5. Poetic_Me says:


  5. nikitalondon says:

    This objectification.. This cant last forever… Let your surface feelings come out.,, ❤️ And all will change❤️

  6. rescuenomore says:

    Hi Lilly and Gem. Great to be on this forum with everyone. Ok, What I mean by my equation is, before most of us came into contact with the person with NPD, we were just ordinary well functioning humans. (EG: normal and or Empath/ Caring person).

    When we have become involved with the NPD person, we actually develop differing levels of BPD to allow us to cope with the soul murdering behaviours.

    For me personally, I have found it very confronting and painful to accept that I have certain elements of a BPD. My Narcs are my NM and Twin NB. Of course, being bought up with this from day 1, makes it very difficult for me to “know” what my personality may have been given an Abuse free, life.

    I am happy to have any comments, particularly from people who had a narc come into your life when you were either in your teens or an adult, and how you observed your personality changing.

    1. Gem says:

      Hello, thank you for the context. I can certainly attest to my entanglement with the narc triggering very anxious, desperate responses. Because I felt desperate! The dynamic also really bought my own fears of abandonment to the surface in a way that felt shocking and extreme. But I believe that wound was there to begin with.
      I think the dynamic with the narc, because of its nature, seems to tap into deep wounds; insecurities, fears, vulnerabilities. This is what narcs hone in on!

      The changes I noticed are: murderous rage, feeling very depleted and bad about myself, scared, anxious, agoraphobia, jealousy, wanting revenge. I can tell you I’ve never been vengeful. And hate. These are specific to the narc though and don’t manifest in wider relationships.
      I can also say that since NC, the intensity of these feelings have abated and I no longer suffer anxiety or agoraphobia. In fact, just about everything has improved from not having contact with the narc!
      So I’d say the change hasn’t been permanent, it didn’t change my fundamental nature.

  7. rescuenomore says:

    My equation.
    An Empath before Narc abuse is a Normal.
    Therefore a Normal after narc abuse becomes a BPD.

    1. Lilly says:

      Huh? So Empath – N = normal, therefore normal + N = BPD? I don’t follow.

    2. Gem says:

      I’m not following

    3. Are you stating this as narc parent/child relationship?

    4. Lilly says:

      Did you mean an empath after narc abuse is normal? Like Empath — Normal — BPD? I can definitely attest to the emotional shutdown or numbing/deadening effect that happens, at least temporarily.

  8. chirose says:

    It’s funny HG. This never worked on me. Not 20 years ago and not this time. I definitely believe I am a super empath. I can feel and know things without any empirical data. When people lie to me, including my N, it’s as if I can hear the truth they’re not speaking. I hear the words/lies from their mouth, but I hear the truth in my mind. I have been called a bruja (witch) and sherlock holmes by several people. It’s a strange gift.

    And regarding confidence, my brother once told me I could give a good dollop away to the rest of my siblings and still be good. So when I was being objectified by my N, I always lashed out. But I guess that’s how he got negative fuel and why our golden period never lasted for long. But it’s also why I walked away both times.

    Hmmm…so much to process. Thank you again HG for such an insightful piece!! I am learning so much.!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Chirose, it is interesting to read of your experience of what you are.

      1. chirose says:

        Thank you HG. I feel the same way reading of your experiences of what you are.!! Actually, probably more so 🙂 Lol..

    2. nikitalondon says:

      you sound like me with the lying….. I feel it.. but nobody has called me anything…. I never trusted my instincts and prefered to believe the other person……. Mistakes of my youuth LOL

      1. chirose says:

        Yes, I didn’t believe it when I was younger either. Thought it was strange or I was anxious. It’s taken a lot of experience and age to get me to trust it. Now it’s so loud, I’m surprised the other person doesn’t hear it and become embarrassed. I am very attuned to other people especially the closer I become with them; hence the name calling 🙂 lol…

    3. Poetic_Me says:

      I am same way, as you are, Chirose. Yes, I think it allows us to leave sooner, after recognizing and knowing things will never change, then say a normal co dependent empath.

      1. chirose says:

        Yes, I agree with you Poetic_Me.!! When I hear that some empaths have lasted a year, 5 years, 10 years in the golden period…I’m amazed and admittedly slightly jealous. Haha..I figure if I had to endure the bad at the end at least my golden period could have been longer.!! But silliness aside, I know it is better to know sooner and leave sooner.

        1. Poetic_Me says:

          I would nevr have lasted that long, as I am too knowing and questioning and assertive of my rights. I would have to have pretended and faked my way through it and to what point or end? No, once I know and they know I know and there is no way to find a mutually accepting way between us, then I leave. Abuse will not be tolerated to myself or others. End result for my knowledge was silent treatments ( psychological abuse) or physical abuse. Love simply cannot cure all, Chirsose, well said, it is better to leave sooner, for our own well being.

          1. Indy says:

            Haven’t read the whole stream, but saw someone say there is such a thing as a golden period that can last for years?? Really? Can a narcissist really keep that up for that long? Grateful mine didn’t last that long and the wool was drawn down. That makes it really hard to truly determine you are in a relationship with someone with narcissism if it lasts that long and it isn’t real. The pain would be that much greater given the lie was that much longer. How sad 🙁

          2. Poetic_Me says:

            I can only suppose and HG could answer this better. But to me, if the appliance / object is obeying and performing in the manner dictated by their owner then the Golden period can last longer, as they will be only pumping out positive fuel, not implied or perceived criticism, such as those of us who been aware and “stop” performing as we are expected to. Not knowing we are only valued for that performance and output. With that said, I cannot see how boredom wouldn’t set I for the N and begin to crave the fuel brought in by devaluation. I am surprised D never tossed me on the heaped pile before I left him. I can Only imagine and I know HG will disagree, that D knew despite it all. I loved him and was real with him and for him fuel was fuel, positive or negative.

            It would be far worse to have such a long relationship thinking it was real and mutually loving and respectful to have it all shattered by the truth of what it really was. I am still questioning Indy, if D is a narcissist or something else.

  9. Hope says:

    Mine told me once how he loved getting new gadgets, but quickly tired of them and put them in a kitchen drawer never to be thought of again.
    Then he did that to me.

    Great article, helpful explanation.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Hope. I trust you have clambered out of that kitchen drawer now?

      1. Hope says:

        The kitchen drawer was locked, but I smashed it open and broke free. He thinks I’m still in there, though. 😉

  10. Gem says:

    I suppose it must feel incredibly threatening when the ‘object’ starts to challenge, not comply and not function in the desired way.
    I can only think this is the case, as the narcissist used to overreact to any challenge and go on the attack or the standard was, ‘if I receive anymore emails like this I’ll call the police’.
    As if the police are interested in a non-threatening, perfectly reasonable disagreement.

    But from his perspective I think he literally must have felt I were threatening his entire existence by disagreeing with him or arguing back. He was in a constant state of ‘fight or flight’. I do actually feel sorry for him, (narcissists), that this is your experience of life, and people.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Your analysis is accurate Gem.

  11. centauride12 says:

    Excellent explanation as usual HG. I think the issue if control is common to many mental health conditions. Maybe because the sufferer has so little real control of their internal world they have to compensate by seeking to exert control in their external world.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you CR12. In a blog article that has yet to be posted, the good doctors discussed with me how the absence of control over my world when I was boy has led to excessive and the need for total control now. I am reflecting on that suggestion, after all, those two will tell me anything if they think it will cause them to score points over me.

      1. mlaclarece says:

        They’re connecting the dots and slowly integrating your being bridging the past to the present so you can be better equipped and informed for your future decisions and who you let in your life.
        And before you say my methods are my methods or my means justify the end, you are the one terrified of the Creature breaking free. So there’s a method to the madness.

      2. Ummmmm….utilizing my total recall….I also told u that. Wait don’t be mad, I’ll be good, I promise….come here!

  12. 1jaded1 says:

    Perfectly stated. Chilling. *shudders*

  13. Snow White says:

    I think it gets very confusing. My ex thought she was BPD and I thought she was bipolar. But once I got out and started looking for answers, I knew as soon as I saw the first article about what a nacissist was that I had found out what she was. We even spent a whole day at the library looking at disorder books. I can’t be believe how naive I was. She was probably laughing the whole time.

    1. Lisa says:

      Hi Snow White , I think some don’t know and don’t want to know. My ex mentioned being diagnosed manic depressive which is bi polar but according to a lot of specialists bi polar is very often misdiagnosed and is actually borderline . However all have narc traits to some degree and I do think bi polar is narcissism and borderlines display narc behaviour . I’m probably going to get slaughtered for the post . But in the end as HG says it’s all cluster B as I think even the experts are lacking in research and true cause and diagnosis in some cases . I don’t know why I even care what he is but I guess it’s just helped me try and make sense of it all. But I’m not convinced mine is NPD but there’s also all the aspects of co morbid diagnosis . I think mines a bit of everything ha ha . But I do think he’s a bit more chaotic than simply NPD . He also has OCPD and the rapid changing of his mind even from day to day or within one day . But he fits so much of HG ‘s writings . I wish I could get to a point where I couldn’t care less what he is . Or I wish I had known all this when I was with him . I just want it to end . But he’s never done any of the chasing stalking stuff or been violent .

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Lisa, what do you mean when you write “bi polar is narcissism” ?

        1. Lisa says:

          HG I have read extensively about bi polar and of course like anything there is a spectrum . There are also 3 types of bi polar . It’s the same disasociation the same splitting . Bi polars are narcissists . It’s just they do have the extreme highs and lows so that differs but depending on which type of bi polar they have , they don’t all have the extreme highs and lows . There are 3 levels of bi polar and that’s why it’s so easy for borderlines to be misdiagnosed as one of these levels and very often be on wrong medication . But bi polars are Jekyll and Hydes , they also can hide there behaviour when it suits them and are very manipulative regarding their illness . They are detached and split . But I think it is an illness in some way that is more socially accepted or more empathy is shown to them from the world. Where as narcs and borderlines are seen as the devil . But it’s all the same thing and all boils down to some kind of splitting and manipulated behaviour and lack of regulation of emotions . On the other hand aspergers and autism could also be seen as displaying narc traits due to not being able to connect in the same way emotionally or display emotion however that is completely different and manipulation is not involved in that and I do believe that has been proven. HG have you researched different information ?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for expanding on the explanation. I am not bi-polar. It has never been mentioned in my diagnosis. I can see how a narcissist could suffer from bi-polar, to put it in simple times, he has a period of mania and then slumps into depression if fuel levels are too low, but given the way we are generally successful at gaining fuel, I do not see this happening very often. Moreover, during mania, decisions may be made which are ill thought out with little regard as to the consequences. I can see that of a Lesser but not a Greater, I think out my actions and intend the consequences. I don’t agree with your statement that bi-polars are narcissists. What are the three types of bi polar and what are the manifestations in each type?

          2. Lisa says:

            No HG your not bi polar
            I don’t know if this link will work but reading Sheri Schreiber Bi Polar and also Male and female Borderlines
            It’s worth googling to realise just how many co morbid disorders are associated with both borderlines and bi polars

          3. Indy says:

            Had to jump in, as I care about this topic as well….indeed, I may be repeating some here and I apologize if I am.

            There is a lot of overlap and co morbidity of the personality disorders with mood disorders as well as other diagnoses such as addictions. Here is what I know: NPD and borderline PD both have splitting, attachment issues and a poor sense of true self (thus the internal emptiness). NPD has the grandiosity and reduced empathy, Borderline has deep emotional dysregulated and are deeply sensitive and often to the point of suicidal thinking and self harm…lBipolar does have a spectrum, like everything else, depending on the predominance of which mood type (more manic or hypo manic versus depression or dysthymia). The pattern and severity of mood determines its diagnosis. It is known that Bipolar is very neurochrmical and genetic and responds well to mood stabilizing drugs. If not treated early, bipolar can progressively get more severe with each episode (kindling effect). BPD and NPD do not have that same course of neurochrmical kindling.

            I have one past long term ex that was Bipolar 1. Deeply empathic though could be selfish though not cruel. and when his mind raced, wow….it was very chaotic…never mind not sleeping for days and the shopping sprees. The crashes were close to suicidal. Moody and sometimes not nice, but not mean spirited.

            My recent ex, who is NPD was a different story. He too had his ups and diwns, but not as severe or patterned…the lack of empathy as well as the lack of a defined mood pattern made him distinctly different. He also had organized racing thoughts and an incredible processing speed. Almost enviable. Like HG said, multiple tracks….Its impressive. The meanest was different…more personal that the irritable moodiness that the one with Bipolar had…

      2. Snow White says:

        Hi Lisa, I also don’t know why I care but I do too. I definitely believe in spectrums. My son is autistic and there is a spectrum for that disorder also. So many pieces to the puzzle. It was the lack of empathy that HG had pointed out that really seals the deal for me. She never said thank you or please and never ever felt sorry for me when I cried. Now I know she got negative fuel from it. At least Lisa, both of ours weren’t violent. One thing to be thankful for!
        HG I wanted to ask what you thought of Lisa’s comment about the rapid changing of the mind. Mine referred to it as racing thoughts and I thought I read that you said you are always plotting and thinking of your next step. Do you think that’s what she meant?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes I do. A racing mind can be applicable to several issues of the mind, for example not being able to switch off and always having thoughts racing through one’s mind, albeit in an unhelpful and overwhelming way. My thoughts are ordered and as I have described, I triple track.

          1. Lisa says:

            HG what’s triple track ?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Read A Delinquent Mind.

      3. Alex Zangriles says:

        I felt like I was reading my own words in the post above. I am so confused what my Dark Narc really is and why I still care so much. I think it comes down to the fact that in so many of these people there isn’t a pretty little label package to put them in. DN used to say to me that he knew something was wrong with him and that his brain did not work like most. He thought he had OCD and sometimes seemed bewildered and confused by his own actions. After reading so much on all of these different personality disorders I do wonder if he knew and was just pretending like he didn’t or he truly didn’t and it bothered him. I also keep thinking back to our entire history together and see all levels of narcissism and even remember several times when he truly seemed empathetic (one of them being when my uncle died…he truly seemed crushed). Still though I am wondering if this was real emotion or just learned mirroring. It is so confusing and mind boggling. At the end of the day, I just have to tell myself that it doesn’t matter bc no matter what he is he hurt me time and time again.

  14. Lisa says:

    HG I don’t think this fits mine I’m getting more confused about what he is . I keep thinking BPD . But def fits many NPD as well. I will wait for your response to my email .
    Can you also give me your thoughts on avoidant personality disorder because when I read this they sound like narcissists and sometimes there are articles about love addicts/love avoidants . What’s your take on those disorders ? They seem pretty similar to narcs and co dependants ?
    But maybe an avoidant personality disorder would be slightly less narcissistic . But he’s chaotic like a BPD . I think NPD is less chaotic as a disorder in their heads I mean ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am probably best placed by reading your email to give a better overview Lisa. Do bear in mind that many of the cluster B disorders do have overlapping traits which may be the source of some of your confusion.

    2. Gem says:

      With regards BPD and NPD. There are some similar thought processes and behaviours such as impulsivity, fear of abandonment, (though this manifests differently in each).
      However, BPD do not exhibit a lack of empathy as NPD do. Also, one of the defining traits of the NPD is a sense of entitlement and grandiosity. This differ from BPD, in that, BPD’s, though they have an unstable sense of self, do not manifest entitlement or grandiosity in the ways that NPDs do.

      Both BPD and NPD are also on a spectrum. However, BPD is a bit of an umbrella term that can cover lots of behavioural and thought processes like PTSD, trauma related disorders, self destructive tendencies. From my understanding, NPD is a more ‘rigid’ ego structure.

      Not all ‘love avoidants’ are narcissists, but all narcissists are love avoidants. In my opinion, love addiction/love avoidant do not describe personality types or disorders, (if we’re looking at NPD and BPD through a medical lens). Love addiction or avoidancy seem to be thought/behavioural processes and/or symptoms of the above personality disorders. In a way, both are avoiding real intimacy and genuine connection with others, but in different ways.

      Re: chaotic thinking as a symptom of BPD or NPD. The narc formerly in my life was incredibly chaotic which resulted in constant drama. I don’t think the presence of chaotic thinking would mean your ‘NPD/BPD etc’ is not a narcissist.

      I don’t think I’ve made it any clearer. I knew as soon as I found out about NPD that that’s what the narc was. It was so clear, textbook really.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you Gem, that accords with what I understood the position to be, although I was unaware about the umbrella term. I knew that BPD have empathy, that’s why I target them.I also regard them as having an emotional skin which is tissue thin which results in copious amounts of fuel. I will be interested to know what CJ has to say although I should imagine she is asleep at the moment.

      2. Lisa says:

        Great information Gem . Yes let’s see what CJ says . But since I’ve learnt about narcisisim and I’m not talking about healthy Narcisism that we all have but when it becomes destructive or sabotages relationships . Even though the BPD or the Avoidant may not be a Narcisist as such . They will devalue and discard due to fear of abandonment . So whether the Narcisism present is to a lesser or greater degree the results will be the same . Intimacy and love and trust are sabotaged . Even if not in the same way that someone like HG operates . But it is useful to know that you are convinced yours was NPD and was chaotic . Also when I use the terms in the post lesser or greater degree I am not referring to HG ‘s use of those terms to describe a Narcisist .
        Regarding your other post HG about the good doctors saying there was a lack of control in your childhood plus seeing the power MatriNarc had so you copied behaviour . This also describes my exes childhood only the father was the narc and he watched how he treated his mother . So he was terrified of his father and yet copied him.
        However those good doctors are probably just conspiring against you as usual you know their game , they as always trying to get you to lead a normal life and have real love in your life and feel you are more than enough . They are an evil pair them two 😀

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am pleased you have come round to my way of thinking about the gruesome twosome.

  15. Indy says:

    Wow. Indeed, I second the comment above. Brilliantly written. I now understand the discard too s much better. Thank you for writing this, I was waiting for it and not disappointed. It’s all about agency, we don’t have it and when we act on it, it angers you…like if a coffee pot took the car out for a drive…I’d be angry my coffee pot did that, even if the pot was on the title. I see….damn. I know I can’t change how I view others in the sense that I could never view another human being as an object like that. Now I kind of understand your resistance to change in your view of people. Just wow. Not excusing, but understanding.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Indy.

    2. chirose says:

      Indy…I think a narcissist can maintain a long golden period especially if it’s long distance. I know someone who was in one for 4 years. She was able to give positive fuel for that long because they didn’t live in the same city (away at university). So always positive texting/calling while away and then positive excitement fuel upon her return. Of course, while she was gone, the narcissist had a bevy of other supply. And when she came into town, he lied to the rest of his supply that someone important was in town (i.e. mother/father, cousin, friend) or he lied that he was out of town. So on and on it went…. Brilliant really if you look at it.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed Chirose and the person you describe will not have been the primary supply but will have alternated between intimate partner (primary supply) and then inner circle friend (secondary supply) thus allowing the golden period to last for longer by alternating between primary and secondary source.

        1. Indy says:

          Thanks, that makes sense.

      2. Indy says:

        Ahhhh, that makes sense now. Thanks for explaining! Note to self, no long distance thingies…LOL

        1. chirose says:

          Hahaha…I was hoping I wasn’t giving you any new ideas.!!! 🙂

          1. Indy says:

            Hey Chirose,
            Giving me ideas or HG? I am staying away from relationships for the time being, healing right now.

            As for HG, he seems to have all the ideas cataloged and color coded….

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Have you been peering in through my study window again Indy?

          3. Indy says:

            Oh, not your study…..

          4. chirose says:

            Hey Indy….I meant giving HG ideas.! And you’re probably right about the color coding.! Lol… And I agree…I’m in healing mode myself <3

        2. chirose says:

          You’re welcome Indy.! Exactly…stay away from long distance thingies.!! Usually, they don’t work out either unless one person moves for the other.

      3. chirose says:

        Yes, exactly HG.!! But he also had a primary supply in town who became a secondary source when the girl was in town (not counting other sources of supply). It was this person who finally caught him and exposed him because she became suspicious as to why she never met these visiting people. The girl I know would have continued living in la-la land much longer if not for the other girl’s suspicious.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Often the case Chirose.

  16. Snow White says:

    Thank you for helping me understand why you would want control of someone. When that was first brought to my attention that that’s what my ex was doing I thought that was the craziest thing I had ever heard of. Who in the world would want to control everything about another person? She was definitely setting me up to take away my independence. I would have been at her mercy for everything. No one else can explain it but you. Great job!

  17. As always perfectly explained. The tea kettle analogy explains it in a succinct and absolutely perfect manner.

    You never cease to amaze me. Your clarity and ability to put something so complicated in terms that anyone can understand is second to none.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you B&T

    2. nikitalondon says:

      Perfect !!! Perfectly expressed..
      B&T its funny we went from not agreeing in anything to agreeing almost in everything 😂😂😂
      Have a nice week ☀️☀️

  18. The tea kettle was an amazing analogy.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you SK.

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