In The Middle
I had a consultation with Dr O. She looked as clean and inviting as ever. I am sat across the room from her but the scent of cleanliness is discernible. I bet if I tasted her she would taste clean. Her clothes are immaculate, her hair shiny and held in a ponytail and I can see her nails are clear yet manicured. The quality of her skin reminds me of someone I knew long ago. I imagine she attends to a vigorous regime of diet, exercise and skin care to ensure that her healthy, soft looking skin remains so inviting for me. Dr O was engaged in discussing my behaviour.
“What do you think of this statement?” she began, “Your behaviour is repetitive. You draw people to you, you hurt them and then you cast them aside only to draw them in again.”
I waited as I considered this comment.
“Before I answer, I would like to add a caveat,” I remarked.
“Perhaps you could answer it without the caveat. It will keep it simpler.”
“But it is important you understand the context of my response.”
“How about you answer the question first and then you can add your caveat?” she offered.
I reflected on this. It would undoubtedly please her if I did this. By pleasing her she will feel drawn to me.
“Fair enough. That statement is accurate, although,” I answered.
She held up her hand. I would usually plough on, after all, who on earth is entitled to stop me when I am talking? I still felt that by indulging her, it would benefit me.
“Thank you. How do you feel about this statement? You are stuck in this behaviour.”
She had followed-up with a further question, when she said to me that she would allow me to add a caveat. She misled me. I did as she agreed and now she has reneged on that arrangement. I was not pleased. I could feel the anger rising inside. I knew why she had done this. She wanted me to feel small. This is what they all did, just like her. They try to make me feel small and helpless and useless and pathetic and contemptible. I could feel my grip on the situation loosening. There was a sensation of falling as I tried to reach out and grasp my surroundings, but they shifted and moved, spilling through my hands. I could sense the yawning chasm waiting to engulf me, that place of those lost emotions which I fight on a daily basis. They were rising up to haul me into the chasm. They wanted to surround me and consume me. I can hear her voice drifting up from below, echoing and distant yet somehow clear. That ghostly voice from long ago that lurks in the chasm and becomes unleashed when moments like this happen. I can hear the words, the scolding, the criticising, the demeaning words spilling from that cruel gash of a mouth. Please stop it. Please,please,please.
“Yes, I feel stuck. I am stuck with her,” I suddenly said, the words coming out in a forced and breathless manner. Was Dr O in the room any longer? I could not be sure, she seemed to have become blurred as if she had melted into the surroundings.
“I am stuck listening to the unfair and unjust criticisms of everything that I do. I try and move forward, I try each and every day, by trying to extinguish her accusing voice, by finding those who will praise me so that their words will stop her from bringing me down. I have to surround myself with those who can help me diminish and then extinguish her, they are necessary in order to help me survive. I turn to others so that their voices will drown hers out, the kind words, the adoration. I have to have it in order to stop her. Even the screaming and the tear-filled sobbing and the shouting, that is preferable to hearing that woman and her acidic tongue. Sometimes it works for a time, her voice is lost amongst the cacophony of others but she always comes back. Why? What did I do to deserve this? I cannot get rid of her. Even when I think, this time she has been silenced, she somehow surfaces. I cannot stand it. Why do you do this to me? I never did anything to you did I? I just wanted you to tell me what I had done was good, that I got your approval, but you never would would you? I didn’t hurt you, I tried my hardest for you, but you always said I could do better, I could improve, I could go higher. I just wanted to please you, was that so bad? Tell me what I have to do, please? I just want it to stop, I want to be good, I always told you that, but you said I was bad for not doing what you wanted, but I did do what you wanted, you always changed it just as I seemed to be getting closer. Please, I want you to go now and stop hurting me, why are you still doing it, have you not had enough? Stop, please stop, I want you to stop, I want it to stop, I don’t want it anymore, I don’t want to be stuck anymore, I don’t want to be stuck in the middle of this any more, I don’t want to be stuck…in the…middle….with…you.”
I can no longer breathe and my words cannot surface any longer. My chest is tight and the air, the air is being stolen from my lungs now, the floor is moving and shifting. I can hear something but cannot make out what is being said, it is like a roaring. My hands are raking the air as if fighting off unseen attackers but they seem to move so slowly. Dr O comes into brief focus as she is moving across the room towards me. I am falling and the floor is coming up to greet me as the darkness takes me. The all encompassing darkness engulfs me as I hear,
“You’ve let me down again.”
Then there is nothing.
182 thoughts on “In The Middle”
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This is the MatriHook. Indiana Empath doesn’t need to hold the golden icon. It’s just unbearable for her to walk away from the screams.
She doesn’t drag herself through hell because she’s honest, decent and has integrity. It’s a compulsion, just like yours. She craves the moment when you’re naked and burning and she can hurt you. But she doesn’t. She gives you love.
Honesty, decency and integrity would keep her far away from you. It was wrong when she allowed you to devalue someone else while she accepted your overtures (and a part of her knew it). It was wrong when she abandoned the people who loved her with substance to reside in your fantasy (and a part of her knew it). It was wrong when she gave up her identity for the thin desperate hope of your love (and a part of her knew it). It was wrong when she stood complicit while you abused someone —- especially herself (and a part of her knew it).
Integrity tells her to fight for her identity with everything she has. Honesty and decency tell her that you are not worthy of engagement and she needs to deny you it. That there is a great injustice, one that repulses and horrifies her, that is exacerbated every time she grants you it.
But there’s that pain again. And the deep visceral urge to engage with it. To touch it. And honesty, decency and integrity crumble
How do we know this whole post isn’t you pulling the VC hmm? It would be a good source of fuel and we know you’ve conned the Doctor’s before. I get how you’d wanna be honest about all the abuse you dole out, because others can marvel at “the cleverness of me,” but this kind of honesty is much harder for a narc.
From years of observation, aren’t you all just punishing us for your parents? Didn’t you just decide early on life and love wasn’t for you and it’s all just simply a massive rebellion, coupled with false arrogance and competing against yourself and that thought “you’re shit and worthless”?
That’s what I concluded anyway.
In less damaged cases, compartmentalisation was more common. In severe neglect such as my boyfriend from a third-world country, after I lived with him a few months and watched him, it was literally at the moment of damage, his character had just got up and walked out. There wasn’t anything but machinations.
I was diagnosed CPTSD with my BPD.
Both of these diagnosis are being treated differently in therapy.
I am curious. HG has never been diagnosed as disassociating. I no in therapy there is a certain blank look I give off when I start to slip into dissacociation. My doctors used to call me back, now I can do it myself. Is it possible that the look of dissasociation can also be liken to the blank look that a Narc. Can give off?
Hi SII,
BPD and CPTSD are very strongly associated with one another. I am glad they are treating them both.
That blank look, I totally know what you are talking about. It can be dissociation (a symptom of trauma) and it can be flattened affect that is not associated with dissociation. I saw that look in my ex’s eyes. He likely has narcissism(has a lot of symptoms), though not diagnosed formally.
That is awesome that you can call yourself out of a dissociative episode!!! Do you use grounding to do that? Just curious, if you do not wish to tell how, it is Ok. A vary helpful skill to have in the healing process.
Hello Indy!!!!
I wanted to ask you about a type of therapy that my therapist brought up. Her understanding of what went on in my relationship and the aftermaths of it are expanding. We were discussing my PTSD and she wanted to target the hypervigilance state that I am constantly in.
She wanted to see how I would respond to Gestalt therapy? Ever heard of it or use it? She wants me to bring in a picture of my ex and wants me to write what I would say to her if I ran into her.
HG this is where I was going to ask you what your thoughts were. You have taught me to make sure that I don’t show emotion. My thoughts have completely changed since I have been following this blog. I started out thinking I would hug her and ask how she was doing but now I know better and don’t feel the same way. I don’t know of anything that I could possibly say to her. Nothing I could say makes a difference anymore. What should I say?
My therapist thinks that if I’m prepared with a script that I will feel better about the meeting if it ever occurs.
Thanks to both of you. ❤️🍎❤️
Talk about yourself.
Thanks for the advice as usual.
I will do that.
You are welcome.
I thought of one more question for you as I was writing Indy.
Does it matter if I talk about my kids or husband or should I just stick with me?
You’ve taught me that every little thing means something to your kind and I didn’t know if there was a difference with this.
Thanks. You are immensely helpful HG.
Your kids and your husband are part of you so you can mentioned them too. You are welcome SW.
Hi Snow,
I have heard of Gestalt therapy. I can be very helpful when working on processing things emotionally that may not be possible to work on with the other individual present (such as in the case of a dead loved one or someone that is not safe speaking with). It is also good to practice ahead of time to prepare in case you need it. It sounds like she is using the “empty chair” technique. Practice calming too, so you can be calm, if you run into her. Have some techniques up your sleeve to calm yourself, if needed. It might been doing a couple of deep breaths and grounding yourself…what ever works well for you. (Only sharing because it worked for me when I had to call my ex during NC to return a gate key, helped me give no emotion because I was calm).
I would definitely keep in mind what you learned here about fuel from HG. Practice being unemotional and matter of fact, like your reading a scientific article, when you talk to her (not excited to see her, etc). Like HG said, focus on you and your life and show minimal interest in hers. It will make you less attractive to her.
***hearts and apples***
Hi!!!
I immediately thought of you and HG when I heard what she was going to try and you are exactly right, she is using the “empty chair” technique.
Unemotional is sooo hard!!! I cry when I write on this blog. Lol
I think the breathing techniques will definitely help and remaining calm. I will practice that this week. I just returned to yoga last night so that was the perfect timing for your advice. I will combine that with everything I have learned from HG and write a script about myself. Lol…..I’m glad you were successful at it when you had to confront him. Hopefully he was discouraged.
Thanks for everything Indy. It was very helpful. ❤️🍎❤️
You are very welcome! Survivor support here has been very healing for me too, thank you for your kind words and support too!!
Best of luck and Yoga is perfect in getting grounded and calm!
I suppose you can call it grounding but I know it’s the first step to understanding rewiring of the brain. I have lived the first 1/2 of my life in a disassociated state. When your not present for most of your life your unaware something is wrong. In my early 20 a doctor picked up by the look on my face what was happening and explained it to me. I was aware now of when the first few seconds start to arrive when I slip. Along came my kids and I was going to raise them. I soon realized I could not do this in a fog. So using Lamaze vocal points I would stop and calm myself back. The key is you have to recognize the first few seconds and call yourself back. If you get to far you can’t come back, This worked for awhile until I could get to a doctor that could sharpen my brain activity and rewiring is now taking over for me.
That’s amazing! I’m so glad your precious babies helped to motivate you to do this!
I ask this question because I wonder if the flatten look of a Narc and the far away look of disassociation could be looked upon as the same thing. I no with 100 percent certainty what HG is describing here is disassociation and it’s actually one of the worst forms.
I think you have to tackle this in therapy in order to move forward. I am confused why it was never pointed out to him as I feel it’s a pivotal part of therapy. Since mine was diagnosed by the look on my face is it being missed in HG because he has a flattened look. I wonder if HG self assured presence hides the disassociation.
Sorry HG. Don’t mean to say your flat. Just curious.
Hi SII,
You ask great questions and yes, he seems to be experiencing a dissociative experience in the session he wrote about here. Personal experience is valuable in understanding this experience. With that said, one can also have affect flattening and not dissociate. They are two different experiences that can occur together as well as apart. My ex showed them together and separate. He used the flat cold stare in intimidation of me, purposefully. He also dissociated from emotions (not environment) at times and showed this face, not purposefully. He also (rarely) appeared to space out and showed this face (a more severe dissociation).
Yes, it is important for the therapists to work on dissociative symptoms, though I suspect that his doctors are prioritizing certain goals and symptoms. They also may be working on it and we do not know. Just my humble, though you are correct, it is an important goal.
She embodies one of your targets. You are very attracted to beauty and scents. You know she’s on to your game and you can’t twist her any way you like. She isn’t falling for your display of False Self which you have employed for many many years with a 7-8 out of ten success rate. That is pretty high. You forget about the 2 or 3 that saw the signs and ran the other way. Confident women, by design, won’t let you pull the wool over their eyes and much less a professional well versed on the topic HG. You don’t need to replace her for she is not part of your “harem”. You don’t want to live the rest of your life as a False being.
Dr O, you cannot come here and big yourself up!
Thank you TDLL that is an insightful observation and I understand where you are coming from. I would point out that the success rate is 9.9 out of 10, it is only the 0.1 that got away, but your point is well made. I have succeeded with some confident women who i have drawn into my web, but I will, in the interests of disclosure, admit that there are those whose confidence is such that they do not fit the target profile and therefore I would not proceed with the seduction. Where I have and this has included certain confidence women, it is the 0.1 that ran the other way. I remain confident that I can succeed in this battle of wills with Dr O though. Thanks very much for your post.
It is a good thing you have not encountered me in the real world HG. I am sure that I would meet your requirements, but right when you think I am about to be drawn into your web…. I would destroy you with my vision of the “Greater” super power! The only way to catch me in your web would be by telling me exactly who you are as you do in your blogs. With that being said I would be the 0.1 that got away leaving you wondering “What the hell just happened?” Whahaha 😈
Now I just need to learn how to destroy the “Lesser” and the “Mid-range” with my super powers! I will get there, no doubt about it!
Such confidence B!
It is just the way it is HG 😉
Oh my I love that song and Bruce Hornsby ❤️💚
Good isn’t it?
So so good! I love him and the range.
https://youtu.be/PPmyYs92GDs
Some things will never change….
That song takes me back to a wonderful childhood memory of mine. Thank you 😊
Hi HG,
Do I have something from about a week ago in moderation from this post? I don’t wish to repeat if I did submit. It was about Dr. O and the techniques she using and how she appears both talented and strong enough to work with you. You need someone that is strong, smart, and compassionate….and will not be charmed by your natural personality too much so she also sees your side stepping.
Regardless if I posted or not, I wish you peace, progress and true fulfillment. You deserve it. Even if you can be quite the imp. 😉
You did Indy. I ma working my way through the posts which are waiting for moderation.
Hi HG, I figured you’ve been quite busy. No rush, I’m most appreciative. And I’m still waiting on your books, tap, tap, tap, tap
🙃
Easy tiger. The books are all coming along. Plenty for you to digest, plenty indeed.
I wish you good luck toward your ventures. Is she in close physical proximate territory?
Close enough.
What is preventing this from happening? I’m not meaning disrespect, you are able to do anything, so why does this seem different and difficult?
You will see in the fullness of time 1jaded.
Thank you, HG. I can wait.
Too tough to answer?
What was?
A comment in this post with a question I have is still in moderation. If the question is too uncomfortable to answer, I understand. Thank you.
Is it your MatriNarc’s hand? If si, will you whisper in her ear as well? Will this gratify and satisfy you? Maybe for an instant. Then what? True healing?
If not MatriNarc, how likely is it that you will hold the one you refer to as “her” hand?
No it is not MatriNarc.
It remains to be seen how likely it will be.
What is the last thing You would like to be done for You or with You before You’d die?
HG I waited for your answer. If I am correct you can not think of anything. Asking for something vulnerable is not in your makeup.
If I could give you all the answers your searching for. If I could let you experience emotions with no pain or memory attached. If I could give you one day stripped of your childhood pain so that you could live like the rest filled with emotion and no pain. It’s what I would want for you and me. At least we would no what it was like on the other side.
Thank you SII, written as the empathic person that you are and I mean that as a compliment. I did think of something, but you are correct, it is not to ask for anything vulnerable, but rather something I want purely for my own needs.
Sorry to hear narcissism is such a character disorder.
Will avoid them as I do other disordered individuals —
Ever considered rewiring yourself?
An upgrade?
Same concept as reparenting.
CAN be done. You’re the one driving your car —
Not others, or people from the past.
It’s not so hard. Have to keep at it, tho, all the time. Practice, practice.
BTW, they won’t ever *get* how they warped you.
Just forgive them for their ignorance, move on, & create a win for yourself in your own everyday life.
It’s YOUR beautiful life. Claim it & own it, be *that* cool person you want to be.
A fave song, “There’s a difference between living and living well…”
And keep watching out for those patterns of behavior in others, they’re just a bunch of damn clueless zombies trying to suck the life outta you! ♡♡
ICGB I like your suggestion, but if you know anything about NPD, it can only be managed at this time. There are no meds to help it either. To us, he suffers, to him/them this is normal. They know it is not what society accepts. But nonetheless, it is business as usual to them. The brain is a mystery still. They are learning.
The behavior is horrid, it is unacceptable, it destroys lives, but at this juncture, there is no cure. Very few escape the disorder.
I liken it to schizophonia; you know the voices are not real, but you can not stop them.
Love them from afar and for who they are.
HG
I expanded on this rewiring privately
I agree with Anthea. If someone is more than capable of re-writing an amazing narrative: it will be you Mr. T. Forza!!
The emotional flashbacks can and will be triggered by any other therapist/relationship.
A psychologist once told me that when his patient’s left the office as if they have been struck by a wrecking ball, he considered that a therapeutic session.
If I may ask: did you enter therapy on your volition or is therapy legally mandated?
Once again, I’m grateful you wrote this piece. I’ve been questioning why am I even reading this blog? At times, the posts resurrect so much pain and anger, they are hard to digest.
The answer turned up to be quite simple: recognition, desensitization , deconstructing, understanding, and re-constructing will eventually lead me to heal.
I’ve dealing with PTSD for the last 5 years. Up until the unpleasant tour to the Magic Kingdom of Narcoland: I had no idea how the disorder affected all aspects of my life.
Thank you Black Widow, I like your observation concerning the psychologist’s comment. I know I have mixed reactions to my sessions. Sometimes i depart powered ad fuelled after outwitting and dancing with the good doctors, other times i am drained and feel very unsettled at having to embrace the creature and matters which I really would rather keep locked away. It is, as you write, as if a wrecking ball has hit me. Thankfully Miley Cyrus was not sat atop it.
I wanted to post a Miley song. Love her!
Dr. O? Is this the hand you want to hold?
No Miley allowed.
No, not Dr O.
But she is so misunderstood. Who’s hand? >
HG
Your grandmothers hand!
Interesting SII but no.
Interesting. The hand to me is very intimate. It’s the only place you can touch me and I feel some electricity. You ask why? It’s the furthest point of two unions that can still be touching. I can be a tiny be vulnerable but take my hand right back if need be.
If you feel the same as I do. I wonder if you want to understand the full emotion in holding hands. I don’t want to know, the electricity I sometimes feel is scary enough. Your safe place was your grandmother. To take her hand again as an adult wraps around the beginning and end to the one safe place you had. I would want that again in my dying bed. Maybe because I never had a safe place.
Well articulated SII. I understand exactly what you mean. For me however the holding of the hand is something which resurrects with appalling clarity an event in my childhood. Indeed, your comment, leaving aside the volume of messages in moderation, was one which I was not able to address immediately but only until now owing to the what i associate with what you have written. Indeed it was something that I had to bring to the attention of the good doctors in today’s session with them. It will be referenced in later works.
Hey HG,
The reaction you describe to holding a hand sounds like a possible flashback type response (another trauma associated symptom) in addition to the dissociation you describe you do when faced with a trigger. I’m sure you know this though.
Thanks Indy, I will be interested to learn of your observations when you read about it in full.
It was your mother’s hand. >
The one you are searching for, but have not found?
No.
Firstly this description breaks my heart… I’d fallen into pieces if I had witnessed You in such heartbreaking state… Nobody should ever expect anything from anyone and nobody should tell anyone that they had been let down… she cut your wings here… 😭
Secondly as week had passed I’m daring to remind You about the question I’ve asked over week ago. What is the last thing You would like to be done for You or with You before You’d die? Xxx
I want to hold her hand.
Amanda?
I do want to hold Amanda’s hand, but that was not who i was referring to Clarece.
I see. I hope to hear back on some of the longer comments I submitted some days back. Wheels still turning?
Who’s hand do you want to hold? Miley? Just playing. But I am curious.
I want to hold JB’s hand, I felt it when he shook my hand but more than this, I want his hugs. I felt this too and it was very warm and tight.
I should not be greedy. I did fulfill a bucket list item. A hug from Jackson Browne.
The only thing I can answer is ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Just want to start out by saying…well more asking…if you might reconsider the ten wives club? What your mom did was horrible. The look on her face would be priceless.
This abuse was exacerbated by your aunt? Double the suck.
This original post was posted just under a year ago. Are you still seeing Dr. O? Is she still applying these techniques? If no, what else is she trying?
How so 1jaded, why do you request the reconsideration?
Yes double the suck, as you put it.
Yes I am still seeing Dr O. She is applying these techniques and I feel exhausted and unsettled afterwards. I will be writing more about how this is progressing. They seem effective however as the lid has been prised off the box, but what has crept out has not been pretty. At all.
1J1
The ten wives club was mentioned by me with tongue in cheek. But I am sure we could even become a hit TV show with it. I do not hink HG would want to deal with the lot of us. I am sure if he walks in with any American woman the MatriNarc would be beside herself. Maybe HG should have applications. Are you willing to take him on in this capacity? I would play with the demon but not get legally connected to him as I have to much at stake. He would try to clean me out in more ways then one. It is just his nature. Besides I hate sharing my toys. With HG, it is all about sharing.
>
It would all be excellent fuel. MatriNarc would complain about anything, the fact the lady on my arm is American would either be here not there with her Ah Oh. I like America and I like American Women.
The Guess Who https://youtu.be/_FUo2oZsXbc
I see Kevin Spacey.
A fabulous actor. Dark >
I am not sure you have seen the likes of me. You might change your mind. Neon Light. >
LOL Matrinarc would not like anything? Oh she would be beside herself with me. Come to think of it, I have only met one mother of a bf that loved me. Both my husbands mothers were against the marriages. I won, I left them. Why did they feel so strongly against the union, maybe they saw my demon. Just maybe. But I was a good wife just grew tired of being the wife.
>
Bring it on. >
Yep, Ah Oh. Tongue in cheek indeed. I think I made a comment back in an earlier post that the license would be fake. It would be wonderful to get under MatriNarc’s skin for what she is doing to HG. In reality, I will never marry anyone.
Thank you for answering. I can’t even imagine the box being opened and how you must feel. I hope you stay with her if she is helping you.
You will read about it in due course 1jaded, but thank you for your comment.
How long are your sessions with the doctors? Mine are an hour long and that’s not near enough. I can’t imagine having to replay everything that has happened in your childhood and relationships. I feel exhausted as well afterwards. Do you feel relieved or proud of yourself for coming so far in your therapy? You should be commended for cracking the lid.
Usually an hour at present but some had been 2 or three hours (with breaks). They are greedy for top dollar are these two, they are.
Wow
3 hours is to long. I would be so exhausted with a migraine. You must need a few drinks after that. An hour session in USA calif. is 250 am hour. Mine is not paid by my insurance. Is yours just as expensive?
Yes it is expensive but I am not paying for it.
I believe you HG! Lol.. greeedy and manipulative. I’m glad it is working for you.
Can’t wait to read more about it. Thanks for sharing with us.
Did your mom ever hold your hand?
It was more gripped than held.
I will be your Huckleberry HG. I actually have hours of free sessions. Just how it works for me. >
Who said “you’ve let me down again?” If it was the therapist, I would definitely change her. However, if that was your mother and you somehow explained to the therapist why you had the reaction and she showed compassion, she should understand your triggers and not trigger them.
I have had some very horrible narcissistic female therapists with no compassion who enjoyed my distress because they were jealous of my success. In the end I’ve decided to have no therapy because I never found one that didn’t have more issues than I did.
As well, I am very grateful you wrote this. Because now I know how my Dad saw me as a young female threatening him even though I wasn’t. He must have thought I was his mum all over again, seeing his flaws. When I was just chatting away being happy or asking questions, he saw me as what he didn’t get as a kid. And then that is why I ended up with males who do the same. And it’s funny that I have the exact same experience as you have written here of being powerless and criticised but in reverse with the man representing my experience of never being good enough, worthless, a waste of space, stupid and a punching bag.
Your exact story is what I go through when in front of a male trying to control, belittle, humiliate me and treat me like a dog.
In daily life, I don’t express it that much, and don’t think of ways I can hurt others. I never hurt others. I probably limit my behaviour and experiences from fear. But I think I have a similar interior to you and I often don’t have emotions or limit my experience to pleasure.
Does it mean I am a narcissist?
Hi Violet, no it was not the therapist. Dr O did not know at this point who that was because it had not been expanded on.
It certainly is the case that our kind will appear in the field of therapy because we permeate all areas of life, but therapy is one of those places which affords us access to the hunting grounds.
I am pleased you found the piece interesting. I do not think, from what you have written, that you are a narcissist.
Hi HG,
Please try to continue to work with Dr O. She is skillfully attempting a few things in this session you write about. It is important to remember that therapy, when it’s good, not only nurtures but it also pushes us to places that scare us, places we do not go to alone that keep us stuck. I know if I didn’t have a therapist push me, I’d make no progress. It’s like being in the gym and having a personal trainer. They bust your butt for maximum progress.
HG, you are very smart and, dare I say, stubborn and a brilliant manipulator as well. If we are being truthful, I would think you would need a therapist that is this as well, that can match you, albeit more ethically. In this session, she appears to be preventing the escape response from something you fear deeply (inner beast). through exposure to this inner beast you will fear this beast less and less and it will matter less and less what this inner beast says to you. She is doing a bunch of other things too, very skilled! You are fortunate to have such a talented therapist.
I also agree with DC, you appear to be dissociating, which is a common response to repetitive trauma. As you probably already know, this is one hypothesis for the manifestation of various cluster B PD.
I felt the pain in your writing of this session as well as your courage. I know you do not like hugs, so I’m sending my deepest hopes and healing vibes your way. Thank you also for the courage of sharing.
Thank you Indy, a good observation and there is force in what you write.
I wish I had your therapist. Good tough ones that are skilled are hard to find. Believe it or not, I need a tough one that scares me a tiny bit or I won’t work hard. It’s how I am. All good therapists have one, and those fluffy lovey ones (which work and are great for some) just do not do it for me. Further, it allows me to work out why I like spicy men…I think sometimes having mushy soft therapists is hard for me. Shoot…I might need one. Well, damn. Something to talk about in my therapy. Why I do not want a mushy therapist and how is this related to my distaste for golden retriever men….. Haha….
I don’t know why, but I’m picturing two angels (yeah, an intuitive vibe, not fact). Are there two angels? Amanda is one(right?), is there another angel?
Yes.
I’ll take a tall glass of this H.G. You are good. Your response is typical of the mid range not expected from your calibre. I would expect you to reverse her question and state your caveat. It never was about her, no matter how clean she smelled or looked. What is it that you say the means to the end? It’s all about you I call B.S. on this one and welcome the backlash. All these side conversations, hello ladies did you forget who show this is? 😁
Love, it seems that HG’s issue in part is born out of disorganized insecure attachment to his caregiver, and almost all his responses to perceived stess or challenges will result in him being triggered sometimes to the point of derealazation/depersonalization. He doesnt need external love. He needs to grow his own self narrative that he can accept that will be close to reality enough not to need a constant “reassurance”. We talking about channeling internal strength in a way he has never done, despite the fact that real life and people in it may be “difficult” or try to tear it down, in reality or just in his perception. In my opinion, he should use his apprehension towards his mother to emerge as a separate person. This has not happened yet, and he feels stuck and engulfed. Any resilient stable self.concept exists only despite the lack of external love and hardly ever becauseof it,when we are talking about an adult. Basically he needs to reparent himself. Its painful and scary and you become a dysfunctional mess for sometime, but you come out something that noone can everbreak after. A free man.
Thank you for sharing Anteah. I have no formal training in psychology. You seem very knowledgeable in the matter. I only speak from the medical ethics perspective of “First do no harm”. Perhaps it is each individual’s journey to determine how much pain they are willing to endure in order to be rehabilitated.
Love,
I think your last sentence is on point, how much pain are we willing to endure? At this point I feel like I’ve done more than my fair share…would I do it again? Absolutely, if I felt the person was worthy… Although this time around I will not allow physical pain…unless it’s for pleasure.
Very true DC. Whether in a relationship or in therapy, you have to decide how vulnerable you will be – how much of yourself you are willing to expose. I understand in order for therapy to be completely effective, you have to dig down to the darkest corners of your psyche. Honestly, I wouldn’t go there. Why cause myself such excruciating pain? I don’t even get deep tissue massages because they’re painful.
HG, can you tell us who the other women was that abused you? I apologize if this question is to personal! Xxx
My aunt.
It is hereditary. I have seen multiple siblings in a large family with different versions of cluster B.
I do not seek therapy to have the therapist role play my tormentor. If I need the pain resurfaced, I go straight to the source. I do not need a blow up doll to practice on. Love and compassion were what you did not receive from the most vital person in your development. It is your right to seek it now. A trained therapist can handle your fire, yet still nurture you in the process.
You have spent your whole life trying to drown out the voices of your mother and all the others. You have already beaten her. You have accomplished so much. You have gone above and beyond. You are nothing like your mother or your uncle. You are helping all of is here and that is something they could have never done. It is very powerful to have the ability to assist in someone’s healing and to provide the knowledge for others who need it. YOU do that for us.
And you are learning from us and you always tell us that knowledge is power. You need to believe that you are good enough because you are no matter what voice you hear.
Do you believe that Dr. O likes to push you more than Dr.E ?
Yes she is the more forthright of the two, she clearly feels she has something to prove to me.
Dear Mr Tudor
It looks as if Dr O who was merely trying to maintain control in the conversation and ignoring your caveat in the answer, had triggered memories from your past
Your Mother seems very cruel and dysfunctional maybe mentally ill.
Parents are meant to love their children unconditionally not subject them to torture and criticism that is not love.
Love is when you see past a person into their beautiful heart and soul and accept them for who they are and that’s something even society struggles to do.
Mr Tudor I wish you well in your healing and self discovery, you deserve to know what true love is.
God Bless you †
I had just sent a previous post here that will be now awaiting moderating. I wanted to keep this comment seperate although it somewhat ties into the other.
HG will always get more from this type of therapist. The similiarities if any of his Mum & the Good Dr. would most likely start with them both posssibly being the clean neat well dressed well put together type and somewhat cool in their demeanor. Pleasant and professional enough when they want something, unpleasant in their chosen methods in obtaining what they want sometimes.
In order with what I would expect it was required to enduce HG to “go back in time” so to speak, naturally the DR. would then fade out for him after she accomplished her goal…she could not exist in that time and space for him any more as he was no longer there. She was not their originally when all the previous insults and injuries had their origins…so instead he is going to hear his mothers voice as he crashes saying…”You have let me down.”
This was actually a break through for him, he was uplifting and starting to uplevel his unconscious wound. Perhaps the full completion of that is too much to hope for fully for our beloved HG, but the surfacing of this could lead to full understanding for him and some possible healing on some level yet unknown.
HG would have been a really tough one for her.
What you all might not realize is that she is exactly what type he needed…and that this was a result. Only through someone as similarly pleasing and as harsh at the same time as his Mom that he has also put so much effort into pleasing them like her and himself at the same time could this have been brought out by. Any other type he would have been able to continually pull the wool and get no where…which is where someone like HG would love to get when it comes to healing. He would see no need to fix what is not broken and that which has been honed for how many years now as his survival instinct and method. He was duped into believing he had to survive like this by his Mum, and like us that it would always work for him.
This secong guessing that is…the persuit of always being one step ahead.
The sheer efforts by HG and all of us alone over the years if harnessed could light houses for years I’m sure. probably really where the ozone is going ;).
Everything that you describe in such great glorious and simultaniously horrific detail regarding the decent, which I assertain to be like the angel Satan’s fall into darkness…the sheer panic and anxiety that becomes our newest closest lover…the chest is tight…the air being stolen…the floor moving…can hear something…can’t make it out…like Manfred Man’s ROARING Silence…hands raking the air and those words…you let me down again…and you want the floor to swallow you right then and there.
but it never does. Our mind does. Our anger and fury does.
Your total persuit has been to never let those moments in time that did happen as you just described, happen for you ever again. Having been caught off guard before with your mom in your life, the worry of being found wanting is what causes you to do what you do to avoid the decent. The same as us. Never allowing you to please her, because she herself did not know how to accept pleasure that way and could never be pleased…she herself had been made to be found wanting when she was young and she has assured that trait plight and cross were yours to bear as well. We both share that past. Narcissists and borderlines…we both get that big time. What happens when you start to feel critisized…you can’t have that, so you want us to feel like you feel…you need us to fall to the floor so you don’t have to. You need to transfer the hurt. It is a case of if I show you what you do to me, you might think twice to give me more of what I already have. I can get that at home !!…so, we become your shield and you become ours We also need you to do the things for us the we can not.
That is what keeps our construct together of allowing us to never be found wanting as well ,also intact so that our not allowed to be fully developed narcissistic traits and personalities are kept in check also. Any further wounding to this construct of each other causes the decent to the floor. Same result different reasons.
You go after empaths for this reason. Broken souls are supposed to stick together better and are supposed to believed more when they say I won’t hurt you because I know you, because I am you. What it really means though, is I know how to hurt you better than anyone else and most likely if my needs are not met, real or imagined, I most likely will.
A huh. Now go ahead and date or marry that mentality and past and set up. Some know the whole what and why they do things and the effect it has on others, some do not and voila…here we all are…much respect to all. (We’ve come a long way baby’s) to get to here… X’s. :0) …
H.G.
Why didn’t you take the path of least resistance?
Deception serves as a “social lubricant” which safely separates people and their negative thoughts.( paraphrasing from Saxe,).
Deception can be the path of least resistance when two people do not always agree.
In many cases, lying takes a lot less energy and effort than telling the truth and starting a fight over every issue that may arise. Deception is often required because it allows us to share our lives with each other while avoiding difficult issues which cannot always be discussed away. Deception and manipulation are the tools narcs, I have even heard most doctor’s don’t waste their time with your types especially at your level because they can’t discern the truth or B.S. H.G. was there a breakthrough 😊
I wanted to know where this would take me and to gauge the reaction of the good doctor for the purposes of storing that information for future use.
Perhaps she knows what she is doing.
Perhaps this is to bring into sharp focus the feelings you have been running from all your life.
After all, you can not conquer that which you do not face.
Until you can find ways to make peace with those feelings, they will be as an infection to your soul. A source of impending flare-ups and anxiety.
Distorting you, your focus and relationships.
Perhaps in going with this process, as painful as it is, that which you fear will finally be conquered.
This is a process empaths face in councelling all the time.
It takes a good set of ‘steel ones’ to stay in the process until the end without self-protecting or giving up.
I would actually love it if ur mother started a blog as well. I wud love to hear how her brain works and how she justifies how she raised her children.
Interesting idea Jules, but I shall not be suggesting she do so any time soon. If she did it would all be lies anyway.
Omg! I don’t think I could handle that. It would probably send me over the edge. Some of my friends jokingly called me The Toddler Whisperer because I’m a pretty fierce mother and remained clueless what people meant about the terrible 2’s. I would be reading my polar opposite there. Lol
Is there a part of you that wants to face the creature?
Hello Charlotte, the only compulsion I feel to face it would be to better explain the experience to the readers to assist their understanding. Other than that I do not feel the need to face the creature because I have it where it belongs.
Face the creature? I would never want to face my creature. I have had to learn to manage it. HG faced his creature, his mother. I don’t believe you can face the creature inside only understand how it began and maybe find other healthy ways to manage. The creature exists always it just gets smaller and easier to manage but not because you face it, because you understand it.
An excellent point SII.
Hg, smatram da nitko od nas nije kopetentan da ti kaze dali da promjenis terapeuta ili ne, smatram da ti najbolje znas sto rezonira s tobom a sto ne. Osobno sam bila kod vise terapeuta i nazovimo ih tzv.strucnjacima i jednostavno nisu bili kopetentni da mi pomognu po pitanju mog problema, to je izgledalo ko da mi neko celav prodaje sampon za rast kose( you get the point), jednostavno nije bilo tezine u njihovim rijecima. Daleko od toga da nema dobrih terapeuta i koji imaju kapacitet za pomoci, zaista se nadam da suradjujes s takvima. Nekako mi se cini i da ti je samo pisanje neka vrsta terapije, neka vrsta introspekcije da se sagledaju stvari i iz pticje perspektive. Ti najbolje znas gdje stojis i u kome pravcu zelis ici dalje, necu te zaliti jer ti time oduzimam moc, zelim ti ono sto i ti sam zelis za sebe.
HG, peace
Thank you Viktoria, I appreciate your input. Yes, they are probably best suited to me in terms of the engagement we have had so far. I have no desire to start all over again elsewhere and as you write it is akin to a bald person applying hair growth shampoo when there is no hair available, if the situation is not properly suited. I have the measure of these two and that is how I prefer it.
I think Dr. O was trying to show you how your “victims” feel when the devaluation starts. Small, unheard, and just wanting it all to stop!
You may be right Camille, perhaps that is why I should insist she is replaced.
How I personally read this piece:
HG sees that his primary has been enlightened to his facade. This injures him, she asks him to love with truth, to back it up with actions, and he feels criticized, and is filled with blind rage, how dare her ask anymore of him, as he has done all that she asked, gave her the golden egg remember, and now it is still not enough after all that he has done. To top it off all he wanted was her approval, praise, FUEL, and she can’t even provide that anymore, and she has the audacity to ask more of him? Make her stop, make her stop! Another has let him down yet again.
Elation, rage, and then nothingness. A beautiful painting of words describing denial and blame.
Mistake if you replace her. You can’t keep replacing everyone in your life. >
Always charming, always analyzing each female that comes into your path… this reminds me of my ex. It bothered me and it didn’t. It did make me feel insecure at times. He would be angry when a guy would take notice of me, I would remind him that was his punishment for engaging the way he did with other women. (This of course was years later, in the beginning he would rage and accuse me of grabbing other guys attention) Over time he calmed down on the flirtatious activity although I am not sure why.
Your demons are definitely within and easily triggered, are you sure they have not also diagnosed you with PTSD? You know, every time my ex spoke to his mother he was always angry afterward. It truly is the same response from y’all, the same reactions. This is why I have a hard time walking away… why do y’all not deserve love as well? I am really conflicted over this. I know y’all will never truly change nor ever love. The fact that y’all seek to destroy and are aware of it is bad. F$*&!!!!
You didn`t do anything to deserve it. And nothing you could ever do in any lifetime would warrant you being treated in such a cold, cruel, callous manner.
I said before when I first read this post that I wish I could silence that awful voice so it never rings in your head or ears again. I would take every harsh and crush it in my hands, returning them to the dust from whence they came.
She can`t see how perfect you are, just the way you are, and that is her problem. Not yours. You are brilliant and wonderful and magnificent. You are so many things, HG, and it is her own massive shortcomings that prevent her from acknowledging that.
It isn`t that YOU are not good enough for HER, HG. It`s the SHE was never good enough for YOU.
BRavo!!!!!!!! Well said very well said BE
And there it all is…the crux of the “matter”…the whole truth of the true beginnings…the necessary peek through the key hole as they say, live and in technicolor as we used to say…like as in in THX…surround sound…
Like beautiful pearls that spill to the floor when the string lets go.
The true Ambergris.
A few weeks back I commented on one of your articles regarding this origin of your / our similar plight as well, to which your reply back to me confirmed that indeed I was correct in essence as to it being exactly what you had recently been made aware of through the good Dr.s as well and after you stated this, I assumed we could most likely expect an upcomming article regarding such. I was right to assume and this is, was it.
I have also written to you not unlike many others many times stating that at every time you intend me to feel your emotion, what ever the emotion, I feel it…to the bone. I/ We have felt every intended grain and pain as well as the intended delights and pleasures and even at times a form of LOVE… through your writing. We all know that there is a very fine line between madness and genious and that most times it has or we have our origins in the arts.
I could feel myself wanting to run as I read, but had to keep reading as I had to know what happened as I could feel a true was about to be revealed, like a baby or a drunk that has no choice to tell the truth because they are not in controll of their emotions. I felt myself get light headed and my ears get hot and boy was I angry at them. happy for you but so sad for you at the same time.
I was you then because I have been in your shoes so many times I knew exactly what was about to happen next if they had achieved their goal, which was to have you allow them to put you into an uncomfortable position and use what they had learned about you against you using you as their instrument to allow them to get what they want. ( most Dr.’s are N’s to begin with or their polocies and practices are) They had to have by now after close scrutiny figured out a way to momently I would never say out smart you but to get your guard down by feigning a prize for your patients?? sound familiar??…then renig…sound familiar?. dangle that ever so presentable and edible “sqeeky clean carrott cake with ponytail frosting in front of you as bait” then predict how you would react to this female and voila…Spill…and spill hard expell that beautiful pungent and sweet ambergris. $25.00 a gram in the perfume world these days for the real Mackoy. how much do you weigh…lol…(joking), they worked hard to get that from you. That is their job. Some don’t work that hard. It sounds like these guy’s at least try to earn their money. The more I read as you would expect, the more my symptoms started to take hold over me than I finished describing as you would imagine I don’t have to explain to you, and I was running in my mind and heart to catch you before you hit the ground …like those pearls… like my child, like myself…like my world.
Thank you so much for sharing this experience HG. Much respect here. Big smile, big Hugs X’s
You are welcome EB, thank you for commenting.
This has always been one of your most powerful pieces that resonated with me. As I mentioned in another post you are currently moderating, I have been reading and researching a lot on childhood attachments. In particular, John Bowlby, Psychologist. Seeing your article a second time in a new light had me connect to this piece below by one of his studies:
“When children feel pervasively angry or guilty or are chronically frightened about being abandoned, they have come by such feelings honestly; that is because of experience. When children are filled with rage, it is due to rejection or harsh treatment. When children experience intense inner conflict regarding their angry feelings, this is likely because expressing them may be forbidden or even dangerous. When children must disown powerful experiences they have, this creates serious problems including ‘chronic distrust of other people, inhibition of curiosity, distrust of their own senses and the tendency to find everything unreal.’ The long term effects of brutalization and neglect in caregiving relationships are the body and brain experiencing PTSD.” Developing solid self-regulation is largely dependent on a harmonious, comforting and safe source of interaction with our initial caregivers.
In childhood, while the brain is still developing and may not even be able to process harmful interactions or neglectful situations, the body is still harnessing what is happening and those feelings continue to reoccur when you experience that in adulthood. It leads to anxiety, changes in breathing patterns, thought control, etc.
Despite you are diagnosed as a malignant, sociopathic narcissist, the more you divulge about your childhood and your mother’s treatment of you, I think PTSD affects how you’ve come to learn how to navigate in this world. Do the doctors discuss that aspect with you and possible treatment? If so, and that is addressed, would it eventually buffer / soften your narcissism?
Hello Clarece, first of all I am pleased you mentioned how this piece has caused you to look at it in a new light as I had just explained to another poster why the articles are repeated and your explanation is one of those reasons. Your quoted paragraph carries considerable force. No, PTSD has not been discussed at all. Either they do not believe it to be the case or they have yet to raise it with me. I suspect it is the former, but I appreciate your input which is as thoughtful and enquiring as ever.
Here is another quote from John Bowlby, “What can not be spoken to the [m]other cannot be told to the self”. The Creature may be the mass of memories tied up in trauma, caused by her, caused by your aunt, caused by your dad passively standing aside. This creates the constant war inside you and the exterior of control you keep outside of you.
There is a war, absolutely Clarece.
My ex has and still speaks of a war inside himself. I do connect the way he was raised and neglected attributing to his narcissism, his sibling and he are are both, they are alike in how the treat other’s to a “T”. He would always talk about how great his childhood was, and his sibling would always say how they were neglected. As still the empathetic individual I am, I feel sorrow for this for you HG and other’s ..from a safe distance.
Thank you CC, I would not expect it to be any other way.
MLA.
I do absolutely believe the creature is made up of all the above memories. I only know that because mine can be ignited when I see something being done to someone wrongly or hurtful. There has always seemed to be an inner connection to the creature upheaval and child memories. This can make it hard in therapy and because HG works so hard to keep it down we don’t want it ignited. Once disassociation is learned and managed handling the creature is a little easier.
Coping did become easier for you then once you reached a certain point in therapy? In retrospect is there something your doctor could have done to make the process less uncomfortable for you? Or is it just the nature of the beast?
That is such a loaded question. There were way to many factors that contributed. 35 years of on and off therapy with the last 7 being intense.
First I am clinically diagnosed boarderline but I absolutely have my own creature. I have not decided if it’s a baby and could never develope given my dominate mother or if I am so frightened of it getting out I have to much control and it surfaces rarely but it’s a fight to keep it down. As a child had it come out there would have been hell to pay so it’s very controlled.
Understanding how my brain process my trauma was the beginning of my healing. For me when I disassociated, which was daily, it became scary. You don’t have much control of yourself or environment. Learning to call myself back was powerful for me. There have been many many baby steps since then that all have contributed to lessening the creature
I am extremely curious about dissociation. I was molested at the age of 3 by a family member’s boyfriend. I have only 1 memory, in that memory I knew exactly what to do when someone came home and strongly indicates this was not an isolated incident. I told and went to counseling however would never talk about what happened. My parents were going through a divorce at the time and that is all I would talk about. I am a classic codependent my father was an alcoholic/and may suffer from mental illness, and I naturally married a narcissist. (no longer married to him) In my adult life I have had a handful of times where I have had black outs. I believe I did this during my molestation and that I have triggers from certain phrases said to me, to being in vulnerable states alone with a male, and or under the influence where I will have fragmented memory and when I am coming out of such, I am usually crying my eyes out, this then results in insane feelings of shame and depression. In the past this depression would carry out for months and I would sort of just go through the motions of life. I have done extensive self work and these episodes if you will, I can pull out of within 48 hours and don’t suffer from depression further. I am starting to put two and two together and I am thinking I need to find out what “trigger’s” besides general “upsetting situations” that cause me to continue to dissociate. Or is that even what I am doing? Does this sound like disassociation? Thank you for sharing this, as I do self work and healing I find more layers and the sharing of everyone on this blog helps brings me to the next steps in this godsend process!!
The black out episode and the 48 hours does not.
If you read HG post again and listen to him describe what happens to him in the room that’s exactly what it’s like.
You start to feel your head slip from your brain is the only way I can describe it. When it slips from your brain you seem to be in a fog. You can’t make sense of the talking around you. It’s like being in a tunnel that echos donething you can’t understand. My body gets hot and tho I am still present the room I am in seems to get smaller and the walls fold in. Sometimes it spins. I don’t black out I could stay in this place for sometime but not 48 hours. The reason is that your daily habits like eating and going to the bathroom pulls you back to reality. In my younger years and not understanding what I was doing I could stay in this fog for hours. I could still perform daily tasks. Now I can stay present with my training.
I don’t black out for 48 hours oh my, I would be terribly scared if I did!! 🙂
The actual black out-or complete memory loss, last no more than 2 hours at a time. (mind you while I am in this state I am carrying on conversations and walking around as if I am aware of everything going on around me, I have had someone say a “glaze” comes over my eyes just before) I was referring to the past and how I would slip into depression for months after a memory loss episode, and now I feel depressive moods for up to 48 hours at the most, and I am able to pull out of those self sabotaging feelings. This is the result of extensive healing on my part that I don’t slip into long bouts of depression anymore.
<3 + X's
Hi MLA and HG,
It is interesting, MLA, that you bring up PTSD. It is an astute observation. Indeed, what he has experienced as a child with his mother would qualify as a series of traumas (child abuse). This would have a similar effect as PTSD, though it is referred to in the trauma mental health field as “Complex PTSD”. There is a prevalent theory out there that many personality disorders, particularly Borderline Personality and likely Narcissism as well are possibly a result of childhood traumas in combination with an inherent biological vulnerability. Both combined (biological vulnerability and trauma in childhood) lead to coping that is akin to complex trauma (dissociation, avoidance of triggers, intense anxiety with facing the triggers (the beast for HG) in addition to the specifics in personality development that may be impacted as well (sense of self being impaired, aggrandized or obliterated, depending on the individual and the PD), I do not think they would diagnosis him with PTSD because the NPD diagnosis comes with this….but some docs might. Depends on how they conceptualize NPD.
This is how I conceptualize BPD and NPD in my practice. Some look at it differently.
Thank you for that Indy, most interesting.
If you care to read more published work on this theory, there is lots out there. This is just one of many that supports this view.
Childhood adversity in association with personality disorder dimensions: New findings in an old debate RSS Download PDF
M.P. Hengartner
, V. Ajdacic-Gross
, S. Rodgers
, M. Müller
and W. Rössler
European Psychiatry, 2013-10-01, Volume 28, Issue 8, Pages 476-482, Copyright © 2013 Elsevier Masson SAS
Thanks Indy.
Exactly, there are many different theories and styles for assessing and treating. But…what if the NPD is the by product of PTSD because of what HG experienced most likely from infancy? The triple A’s of Attachment issues, especially with mothers who seem to dislike touching, snuggling with their own babies – Avoidance, Anxious & Ambivalent? A baby knows it has to survive with this primary caregiver. It learns to deal but not feel, by not crying much. Although it’s body harnesses that energy and keeps it in a state of hyperarousal. Or, the opposite, feeling and not dealing with crying, yelling, clinging, and screaming.
To me, it starts the second out of the gate.
Helping him separate from these traumas by not having to relive every memory in detail but associate the events with whoever with, the smells, the sounds, and then creating the here and now that the event is in the past, may be able to bring some peace?
(Insert shout-out to HG still sitting in the room, and I’m talking on like he’s absent, lol).
No you go ahead, I am drinking it all in, you are after all talking about me.
Oh I shall with pleasure then!
Btw, how did MatriNarc describe you as a Baby? Quiet, fussy, colicky, or perfect / never cried?
Depends on who the listener was Clarece.
Hi MLA and HG,
Indeed! Attachment theory is part of one of the large theories on BPD and I suspect NPD as well. There is a lot to suggest that young children that qualify for attachment disorders early on have a higher rate of PD in adulthood. Children with traumas are also more likely to develop PD. This includes Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (it is a trauma reaction diagnosis). It is very complex, as we are complex beings. Since not all children that are abused form PTSD or PD later in adulthood, then it is suggested it is a combination of biologic vulnerability paired with environmental effects/influences (such as abuse, neglect, over indulgence, etc).
Depending on theoretical orientation will influence on how a PD is viewed and treated. Treatment is guided by how someone conceptualizes a disorder. So, I have a bias. Orientation wise, I am a developmentalist with a strong behavioral bend. What that means is I consider genetic vulnerability, prenatal care, natal and child treatment and temperament of parent and treatment by immediate surroundings and society all together. Definitely not a simple thing as we are not simple humans.
Treatment is complex with a complex intertwined disorder such as PDs in general. This is why it is good that HG (Hey there HG!!!) has well trained docs that are different from one another and approach from multiple orientations (CBT and psychoanalytic, right HG?) He is lucky, not everyone has this ability to get such intense therapy with such bright doctors.
I would be interested to know if they are employing trauma informed techniques to work on the complex trauma symptoms he shows in addition to the personality coping mechanisms.
And, at the same time, I am grateful to have this place to talk with such brilliant people here, such as you both (HG and MLA). It teaches me everyday. I love to think of things that will eventually lead to better understanding and perhaps more fulfilling lives all around, hopefully.
Indy, I love your comments here. I’m pressed somewhat for time to give this a well thought out reply that it deserves but it will be forthcoming. I certainly don’t put myself in the brilliant category. But that was a very nice compliment. Thank you though. That made my day. You and HG are certainly brilliant.
I am going to jump in here. All of the above is correct. There is also a missing link. I have to refer this to the animal world. I don’t no any other way I can relate.
A puppy when you first get them from the mom needs to be touch. Ears and paws stroked. It has to get used to all of these sensations. If you are not condition as a puppy you will likely hate it as an adult animal. The dog gets mad, rubs away. Becomes distressed. My mom did not do any of the above. I had to fake it threw my own kids. I wiggle away from any affection it’s totally unnatural to me. The only contact I got from my mom was painful contact. Therefore any touch I get in good form is painful, physically like needles on my skin. When we live in an affectionate world this in itself can be extremely taxing on ones self. Especially tou guys. You great kissing each side of the cheek. I can’t do that. The thought makes me anxious.
Yes SII,
What you are describing n the animal world has been studied by several and is a very good point. This is work also famously done by attachment theorist John Bowlby with primates and humans. I think MLA made references to him as well here when she referenced attachment. His work is very important to consider when looking at he development of PDs. He showed that maternal deprivation can have detrimental control sequences. Here is a good website on his general theory in case you’re interested. Great conversation y’all!
http://www.simplypsychology.org/bowlby.html
Great article you shared. Thank you!
You are welcome, MLA. I was thrilled when I saw you reference him here 🙂 I share your same views on attachment and its relationship to later development of PDs.
Hi SII,
It really affected me reading your statement that you only received painful contact from your mother. I have no words. In lieu of a hug, I’d be the friend that brought you a latte, or hot chocolate or whatever your favorite drink is to make you feel some kindness and warmth on the inside on a bad day, if I knew you on the flip side of this.
Your puppy analogy is spot on.
To supplement that and support the importance of that close bodily connection and nurturing to a baby from its mother is what a girlfriend of mine shared after her and her husband adopted a baby girl from China at 18 months old (late 90’s). They had 2 older children, a boy and girl. My friend was instructed by the social worker to help bond with the baby, she should let the baby rest naked on her chest naked also. Obviously my friend would not be breast feeding her, but it was to establish skin-on-skin contact, feeling a connection with breathing patterns, letting the baby hear her heartbeat through her chest, get used to my friend’s voice while she softly spoke or sung to her, etc. That went on for several months. My friend embraced that completely. I think it prooved to be vital because the baby experienced night terrors for about the first year home with them. During her first 18 months, once she could walk, the babies were tethered to a pole for hours on end do they couldn’t run off. It was a rural orphanage with way more babies than workers per child could manage. She would also hoard food in her mouth upon finishing her meals. A habit I think she kept until 4-5 yrs old. A habit created as a baby to counter low food rations and hunger. The babies would be put in straightjackets at night so that a hot water bottle could be tucked inside and kept in place to keep them warm because there was no heat.
My friend was a teacher, then once she had all 3 young children, she stayed home for several years and taught parenting classes to people who had lost their children due to family strife (reported abuse, alcohol or drug addiction, etc) and were going to be reunited with their kids. It was through her, prior to having my daughter, that I learned how vitally important that bodily attunement and synchronizing body language for trust with an infant needs to be established. Today, the adopted daughter is in high school, beautiful, thriving, and well-adjusted.
I was lucky enough to be with my doctors last night and this subject once again came up.
I fit the profile of such a child. My doctors do not have any real answers as to how you learn to love touch. My 2 adult children are fine and I worked very hard at meeting there needs. Having to touch and love a child when it’s foreign is very hard to do. I think there had been so much false touch or none at all that I will always run from it. I was lucky enough to understand this at an early age so it did not effect my children. Both are affectionate people but they both no and realize I can’t be approach for a hug and why. It had always been very hard for me when the kids come over and I can’t hug goodbye but they both understand and they have healthy relationships
I don’t know that it is a matter of even needing to learn to “love” the sensation of being touched.
Your body has retained the sensations of whatever it endured and continues to stay hyper-vigilant to avoid getting hijacked.
So take the gesture of getting a friendly hot chocolate. I hand you a hot chocolate with a smile. I walk away then. You get to sip your hot chocolate. Enjoy it warming you up. Enjoy that it was a quick, painless exchange and then letting your body soak up that experience on its own timetable. That would be a new, uncomfortable sensation for you at first. But not a bad sensation. Different. If it happened a few more times, you may not like the sensation, but you’d be able to accept it because your body would learn it’s not harmful.
You are quite a resilient human being. The biggest thing is your kids may not get hugs from you but they received plenty of love which is the most important thing of all when it comes right down to it.
MLA
What a thought to bring a hot chocolate. Being a nurse I am much more comfortable giving. Receiving makes me feel very uncomfortable. So much so I would avoid a friendship because I would not no how to handle the kindness. I push people away because I can’t handle much of any relationship unless I am the giver. It causes me way to much anxiety and stress.
But a girl’s gotta eat… and drink. So there is that.
Mr Tudor no body wants you to feel small or pathetic . The doctors are trying to help you . They care about you . I really am furious with your mother , she has messed you up so badly you cannot accept real love and you seem to shut down in certain moments . Nobody wants you to feel this way . I think that you naturally automatically assume people as a whole are like your mother and you have to hurt them and get them before they hurt you and get you . Please you just have to breathe and understand you do not need power to survive and you must love yourself and accept that nobody on this earth is perfect and you do not have to try so hard or be in competition . Life isn’t a competition meant to win it is a gift meant to sit back and enjoy . Absorb the love from others and feel it and enjoy it . That is all that matters
Thank you Starr.
Dr. O reminds you of her. She needs to be replaced. Can you select another therapist?
Yes. Why, do you think I should?
No
I assume you’d appreciate a more comforting and compassionate ear.
I think it is not so much Dr. O but any woman who would criticize you, as it bothers you so much to have done. Basically that is what she was doing by taking the control from the situation, was it not? A panic attack / flashback to your childhood? Is it your mother you refer to in this writing? They can be so cruel.
Interesting observations Passiel. It is her, in part.
Someone else as well?
Yes.
It is very sad how sometimes we have more than one abuser in our lives.
It was an anxiety attack, changing therapists will not fix it.
No No No!!! Dont ever replace her, use it a s a tool. Compassion will not solve it, you have to overcome caring what that B tells you. You have to be OK with rebelling against her and her thinking you are not the best, who cares if she thinks that, who cares if you are not in all actuality, she wants you to be the best to make hder look good, rebell against it, be bad, be rotten, be the kind that makes he emberassed and she cant do a darn thing about it… how about that for control?.. you still exist and you still have value, even more as a broken and recovering cluster B person then a perfect narcissist… Finding one within yourself despite the words of aholes all around you is the only thing that may and i mean may change things.
So maybe Dr. O should be replaced with an empath? The type who enable him and alow him to be this way? Wouldn’t that defeat the purpose? How would therapy ever work if we were not forced to step outside our comfort zone? The demon hidden deep into the soul must be brought to the surface to be destroyed.
“In order to save myself I must destroy first the me I was told to be”
HG is an intelligent man. He knows that these painful reminders are part of his therapy. Replacing Dr. O would not change that.
Indeed they are B and that is a powerful quote and akin to something Dr E said to me. He commented that the aim of this work is to deconstruct that which I created even though i did not know I was creating it at the time because others compelled it to be the case. Where did that quote come from or is it yours?
Hi HG, I am not sure exactly where that quote came from. I stumbled upon it awhile ago on Pinterest and it has always stuck with me. I do agree, it is quite powerful.
Thanks B.
You are welcome HG.
HG
What you describe in this is disassociation. The fact the voices raise and become unclear and Dr O is lost in the room. Your vary aware of what your doing but your escaping at that moment.
HG
I no for sure now you disassociate. The fact you in part felt like your mother was criticizing you in that moment with Dr O. You like a child with your mother could not get out of the situation you were in with Dr O. You wanted to maintain control without loosing it. You basically left your body and mind to the blur around you. Im not sure your aware that’s a classic spaced moment. I lived in that time space most of my growing years without being ware what it was. My own retreat. It’s a defense your body uses. It’s also where many of my momories were forgotten. I have waited for you to describe this and you just nailed it.