The Treatment


We do not seek treatment. The answer to why that is the case is a simple one. There is nothing wrong with us. Occasionally we may be compelled to undergo treatment but that is a different matter. We feel no compulsion at all to volunteer to be subjected to analysis and therapy because there is nothing wrong with us. Yes, we know that our treatment of other people is often unpleasant and has significant downsides to those who are subjected to it but that still does not amount to a good reason why we should seek some form of assistance. The way we behave is the way we behave. Deal with it. We cannot help but act this way because it is the way we have been designed. We must obtain our precious fuel and if that means we lash out and wound others, emotionally and physically then that it is the price that has to be paid. By you.

You must also remember that since we have no concept of empathy, when we see our behaviour injure others it does not affect us. We do not feel guilt, we do not feel shame at what we have done and we do not feel the need to put right the injurious harm we mete out to others. This is our modus operandi and it can never be changed. Add to that our lack of remorse and you have two huge reasons why we will not act to seek treatment to change our ways.

Naturally, there will be times where we will talk about seeking treatment.

“I need help, I know that now. You are the only one who can do it.”

“If I seek assistance for this terrible affliction, will you stay and help me?”

“I don’t know why I do it, perhaps I need help. Will you help me?”

“I need you. Don’t go. You have to save me from myself.”

“I will change, I will go and see somebody, just don’t leave me, please.”

These are all empty promises. Remember, words comes easy to us. We will dangle these carrots of penance and insight in order to get you to do what we want. Once that has been secured and you try to cash the cheque that we have written you will find the bank has not only been closed but razed to the ground. It is not a question of there being nothing to cash it against, there is nowhere to cash it.

Treatment is for the weak and foolish. To submit to it is an admission of weakness. In the rare instances that we will, it is only to enable us to get something else that we want or to prevent something drastic happening to us and thus we regard the pay-off as one worth making. We do this safe in the knowledge that any treatment will not be effective because:-

  1. We use our manipulative wiles to con the person treating us into concluding that there is nothing wrong with us;
  2. We spend the time trying to charm the therapist and this may work or if they are alive to our manipulation they are forced to terminate the work;
  3. We do not want to change and see the therapist’s actions as a direct challenge which we must thwart. Our energy is channelled into frustrating and defeating him or her and not applying ourselves to the treatment.
  4. We treat the treatment as a form of fuel.
This results in it being futile.
The reality is that those who engage with us are the ones that end up seeking treatment. It is most often the case that our bewildering and confusing conduct towards you has you at your wit’s end. You seek answers and if you are fortunate, you turn to a professional who is fully conversant with out kind. They are able to illuminate you to what you have endured, assist your understanding and then hold your hand as they take you through the painful and difficult extrication from our grip. You are blessed with insight from this treatment.
In certain instances, the abuse we dole out is such that it seriously damages the recipient and therefore treatment is needed to deal with the symptoms of our behaviour towards you. The ramifications for you are serious and have long lasting effects.
We do not seek the treatment. You do. In doing so this is often the first time you actually realise what you have encountered and what you have been subjected to.

76 thoughts on “The Treatment

  1. Sarah says:

    Hi HG,

    1. I know 1 or 2 midrangers who go to therapy and chose to because they want to get and feel better. It really sounds and seems like they do. What’s going on here? Meaning, is their wanting to get better genuine or true?

    2. Is it just for fuel? The victim mid range narc goes and he doesn’t have a primary source.

    3. He tells me that he has issues (I’m a IPSS shelf) and that he is working on them. Why does he tell me this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. No, read ‘But I Can Change’.

      2. See above.

      3. To further the manipulation – again see the article referred to, Sarah, it will answer lots of your questions.

  2. Smoke says:

    HG. I think we have decided that my N is a Mid-Ranger. He recently told me that he is an overachiever. Which I have been told many times before. However, this time he told me when he wakes up in the morning he feels empty until he has done things to make him succesful throughout the day. He referred work days of course. Do you think he knows he is a narcissist? He has always told me he was different than others and he “loves me” the way in which he is capable. I know he has cheated on me many times. The more I read your work the more I feel like I am conducting an experiment. I see so much now than ever before as far as the answers to so many whys. I only offer him positive fuel at this point and so much of it.
    Even at this point he no longer will kiss me passionately. That ended the first 6 months (assuming our gold en period) Why does this happen? we have been together on and off for over 3 years. Do all N’s stop the passionate kissing with their primary’s?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No I do not think he knows he is a narcissist, but the awareness of the emptiness would be indicative of a Mid-Ranger. He knows something is not quite right but does not know what it is.
      The cessation of passionate kissing occurs for two reasons
      1. It is intimacy which we struggle with or even detest; and
      2. It is part of the withdrawal of things which you enjoy and hold dear, as part of the devaluation

      1. Indy says:

        Mine stopped with the passionate kissing too. I love kissing so it killed me when all of the yummy stuff slowed to a stall. He would peck on the lips or forehead or cheek. Every now and then he would give me one of these “movie kisses” and say, “that is what you are wanting, huh?” with a proud look on his face. Of course, I would give him a flirty look and say “yes, more please” in a devious manner to encourage. Yeah, nope. I felt like he was offering a sample and then punished by not giving it. A rare thing, which killed me as in the beginning it was sooo good. But, that lasted for about 6-9 months. It’s all cause of intimacy, huh? Can’t someone kiss without intimacy? Just passion? Of course, I wanted intacy too…but passion is good too. I am beginning to think he got more fuel from not giving it to me…ugh. I would rather have the passion than the game.

  3. DFA says:

    Indy your soul just shines brightly, it does take time to find a therapist that will listen to understand, not listen to respond.
    Titles and labels are two things people love to throw around. And sadly I have seen many that money is what counts, not the person.
    I have seen doctors prescrbe medication because of the kick back for them, when another that is cost effective for the patient, lets not forget less side effects (to which using the other, another medication must be prescribe to counter the effects ), and actually provides a better outcome.

    1. Indy says:

      Thank you DFA. Yes, motives of mental health providers/physicians should not come into play in treatment, and yes there are times when it seeps in in ways that it shouldn’t. Money can really corrupt some people of all professions, including the healing fields unfortunately.

  4. Indy says:

    Awww Punisher, I’m humbled, thank you. And, indeed, we all are each others’ therapists here!!! This is the idea of support groups, peers are sometimes more healing than individual therapy. Being validated and understood is key, who can better understand than fellow survivors. And, being validated that we are not crazy, by one that knows what those with NPD do best (that would be you, HG).

  5. Indy says:

    As a client who has sat in many chairs since age 22, as a woman who has danced with the devil many times (since a teen) and as a therapist, I would like to posit a few thoughts of this topic I am deeply passionate about.

    1. Therapy is one of the bravest and most difficult journey one can take (willing or not), not for the weak of heart or soul.

    2. Just as a general information tid bit, as it is often confusing for those not in the field….Therapists do not prescribe medicine unless they also have an MD. Most do not have dual degrees. Psychiatrists prescribe and do not generally do therapy, unless a rare breed dual degree. Psychologists, Social Workers and LPCs do counseling.

    3. Therapy is ideally individually driven by the client s personal goals. If not, find another one.

    4. Finding a good therapist that knows this type of abuse and what narcicism is truly is HARD as HELL.

    5. Finding one on your insurance, nearly impossible. I know. I can’t afford my own therapy I professionally engage in.

    6. Personal experience in being in several relationships, a couple with narcicists, coming here and leaning from The Tude and specialized training(in BPD and DBT), not text books, is what helped me be a better therapist for those going through this type of abuse. Still learning.

    7. All therapists are humans first and love and loose, just like you. A good therapist Is open to continued learning. Sometimes their clients teach them just as much as the therapist teaches…I think of those I work with as equals. Partners in healing and learning.

    8. Safety, understanding and therapeutic alliance is the most important factor in therapy.

    Don’t give up, and I second the notion that this blog is sooo healing and revealing. You helped me so, HG.

    Just a human here having a human experience, looking to not just survive but also thrive.

    Peace and good vibes,

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The Tude? Hilarious. As ever Indy, your posts are both interesting and valid.

      1. Indy says:

        Thank you, HG. I bet you would be an ever fascinating, frustrating, and inspiring individual to have sessions with!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I cannot disagree.

      2. The Punisher says:

        Agreed, HG. I would say the same of yours.

    2. The Punisher says:

      You’re awesome Indy. I wish you could be my therapist lol. Or we could like have mutual therapy sessions. Not that I’m a therapist, but I may as well be since I’m a magnet.

    3. Love says:

      Thank you Indy. Very insightful. Any client would be lucky to have you as a therapist. Its definitely hard finding a therapist who understands their clients from personal experience and is open to continuously learn. My first one was a psychiatrist. That’s probably why he offered to prescribe me meds from the start. I am happy I did not agree. I did not need to add yet another addiction to my list.

      1. Indy says:

        Thank you Love, very kind of you to say. Yes, psychiatrists rarely do therapy.

        Addicting medications can be over prescribed, which the effects can be detrimental (like to my ex who died. ex). Look out for opioids(pain pills like morphine, oxy, codeine, Percocet) and benzodiazepines(Valium and xanax). Those are the most commonly abused and addictive prescriptions.

        Now, I will say that a good psychiatrist is worth his weight in gold and there are a few out there I would trust with my life. I have one I work with professionally on our teams. There are some diagnoses that really need medication to save them. For example, severe Bipolar Disorder is very well treated with some good, nonaddicting meds. Same with depression and anxiety, my diagnoses. It saved my life. Nonaddictng medications exist for certain disorders.

        And, I’m glad you found what worked for you, Love😊.

      2. Love says:

        Thank you for that information. I chose him because he was an MD and covered under my insurance. As you said earlier, it is very difficult finding a good-fit and even harder finding one within your insurance network. I had one who offered to get our sessions covered by my insurance by giving me a diagnosis such as depression. I didn’t want to be tagged with a non-applicable diagnosis just to save a few bucks. It makes sense why most therapists are not within any network … Too much red tape and paper shuffling.

    4. Indy: Really well said 🙂

    5. she says:

      I’ve only found one therapist out of 17 years of therapy that I have ever connected to. She was the therapist that I saw right after I’d left my narc and feed to Austin Texas. She worked for a clinic who thankfully excepted my income because I’m on SSD and I only paid $10 a session.

      I have never felt so understood in my life. OMG, that woman was amazing!!! I saw her for 10 months before I unfortunately felt I had to return to my narc.
      Heres the kicker though, I’d prepped her about my narc for months. She knew what he was about, she knew what type of monster he was. So I thought I’d request one last visit before I left Austin to return to him, I told my husband that if he’d speak to my therapist, I would be OK with coming back home and he finally agreed. So he drive back to Austin because he lived in East Texas. And did you know he went there and put on this role that even fooled her!! All I could do was sit there with my mouth dropped open and looking like a fool. He charmed his way through the hour long session!! She looked at me and asked me, are you sure that all of your accusation about him are true?? I couldn’t even speak I was so P.I.S.S.E.D. at him, but it also made me question my own self AGAIN.

      1. Indy says:

        I am so sorry, She. Do you still have contact with her? Were you able to tell her what happened?

        Unfortunately, That is the risk of going into therapy with a narcissist. It is often not recommended to engage in couples therapy in this kind of situation because of the possibility of such a dynamic. Therapists are human, thus susceptible to what they are told. Many try not to take sides and this can lead to being conned. A seasoned one may pick up on the situation. One that is well versed in abuse may also pick it up. It takes a very observant and bright therapist to pick up on some of these dynamics, though. It also takes time, which is risky for the abused partner. One session is rarely ever enough to get a true vibe for anyone.

        I am hoping you are able to find help soon, She. I know you are trying your best!


        1. she says:

          Remember I live with the arse again. LOL! And no I dont have contact with her anymore. That was…2013. The last time I heard from her. As a matter of fact, after the lies he kept telling me that convinced me to come back, not less than two months after I came back I was ready to escape again when it had taken me 5 years to build up the courage to do it that time. Anyway, I continued to call my former therapist. Then one day I called and found out she had moved on. I was heartbroken by her and I was broken again by him.

    6. Violet says:

      Indy where are you?! I’ve only ever had narc psychologists and that would be around 8 now so I gave up trying, it was too hard going for help and getting abused again!

      1. Indy says:

        I am in metro Atlanta.

        If it is OK, I wonder if I could offer some suggestions that MAY help. I can’t of course guarantee. I wonder about trying Licensed Professional Counselors(LPC). They are specialized in counseling. Some psychologists are and some are not. With that said, If you are comfortable looking again and feel traumatized, would look for someone with a trauma background and/or DBT. They usually have more experience in this kind of thing. Not a guarantee, but it increases the odds. Psychology Today as a good referral resource to find specific specialties on line. Again, finding insurance to cover is a big issue. That was the issue I kept coming up against. I had a hard time finding one for this kind of abuse that was used to working with therapists. Dialectical Behavioral Therapists usually have some training in it, at least with those that have experienced some sort of trauma.

        I hope this helps. Feel free to ask away if you like.


    7. NarcAngel says:

      I appreciate your strength and intention Indy.

      1. Indy says:

        Thank you NarcAngel, We are all (on the blog) experts in this. We didn’t ask for this specialty, we just are. Now, it is up to us to heal ourselves the best we see fit and those of us in the healing professions to help the best we can too. It’s a long battle and recovery, as we all know. I never thought that a person with narcissistic sociopathy would be my best teacher and ally. And he is. And I was also taught by my exes as well.

        Tough lessons. We all have our own paths to healing, and I respect that.

  6. DFA says:

    Love so is mine to which is why I perfected my abilities for the one.
    I do help people, yet I know what I need to.
    Yet when it comes to prescriptions, I pass and go for natural remedies.

  7. MLA - Clarece says:

    Oh, you dropped my favorite line in there, “Deal with it.”

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well? Have you dealt with it Clarece?

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        Omg! Trying to. Can you speed up moderating my post from yesterday on convo with JN? (Pretty please). You’re killing me today…lol
        I never heard him talk quite the way he was yesterday.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I might.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Uh-huh…I can see this is gonna cost me! Lol

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I do like how you learn so attentively.

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            I know…right?! Exactly my point. Plus if he was gaslighting, it’s a great example for the other readers to see you dissect another Mid-Range Narc in action. If not, you get to call me crazy and agree with him. It’s a win / win for you! lol

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are not crazy Clarece (except for me!)

          5. MLA - Clarece says:

            Thank you for keeping me off the ledge!

  8. DFA says:

    It’s that brutal honesty here I admire and adore about you HG! Yet in a different place I still would for different and the same reasons.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you DFA

  9. DFA says:

    You are by far the best therapy around HG, in a world where we are all just stumbling In the dark, you are shinning a light on what’s needed for the veil to be lifted.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you DFA.

  10. DFA says:

    Love your right, Pharmaceutical companies are just legal drug dealers.
    Yet we all pick our addiction.

    1. Love says:

      On my first session with a therapist he offered to prescribe me sleeping meds because ‘I looked tired’. I refused and told him I want to heal drug free. I was 27 and didn’t want to become addicted for the rest of my life.
      True healing should be mind, body, and soul. I believe the therapist should create a regiment with the patient where they have multitude ways of care (including self care): a session to talk, another for acupuncture, massage, nutrition, and exercise.
      But DFA, you are absolutely right, we each pick our own poison/addiction. Mine is narc relationships.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Good lord Love, I’d have to quit my job to keep all of those appointments. I prefer to sit naked astride a narc then leaning down ( to his revulsion of closeness and intimacy) to say: you’re so refreshing-not like my last boyfriend who was a nasty narc. Whats a narc? Well …they’re sick pricks. Nasty souless individuals who laughingly think themselves superior while lacking most of the attributes required to be a complete person in the traditional sense. So they feed off of those they feel inferior to them. A bit fucked up im afraid. Then feel him wither inside me while I watch the controlled rage in his face. Then dismount acknowledging theres no point in continuing here. He was short in stature so later i sent a text: My first pocket Narc!! I will treasure it always. Precious

        Much more therapeutic.

        1. she says:

          Me too! Always having this look of rage on his face was terrifying. I just recently learned that I suffered from emotiphobia. My fear of him by just a simple look on his face was all it took and he didn’t even have to do anything.

      2. Love says:

        Oh my goodness!!! 😂😂😂
        NA you are a little devil! I could never play with a narc like that. I would end up deskinned hanging upside down in his closet while he sewed himself new pants from me. Lol!

      3. The Punisher says:

        NA that just took me!! 😹😹😹

      4. she says:

        Love, I took those sleep meds because I was tired and looked tired. It was extremely difficult having to sleep with practically one eye open living with my narc.

  11. Viktoria says:

    Covjek je spreman i voljan za promjenom onda i SAMO onda kad je iscrpio sve resurse i kad mu vise nista ne pomaze, kad dodje do tocke ili ili. Tako da je sasvim logicno zasto ne zelis promjenu, nema tu neke mudrosti. Oko tebe ima previse “razloga”zasto nemas potrebe za promjenom. A da se ti “razlozi” maknu od tebe onda bi uslijedile dvije opcije ili duboka preobrazba ili smrt.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed Viktoria there are always plenty of reasons why change should not be affected, from my point of view of course. Others would differ.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Translating and not Narcspeak. Impressive. Whats this then? ( hands gesticulating wildly and throwing random signs)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Someone on ecstasy at a rave circa 1989.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Nope. Helen Keller falling off a cliff.


  12. Mary says:

    Well I am wondering why my ex narc was obsessed with councelling. He was always trying to get me to go with him and was always going on how we needed help. It was a constant thing with him, Drove me nuts with it. Why was he so fixated on going and pestering me to go? He would go alone and then throw it at me and say ” my therapist says you are selfish” and other crap.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Your answer Mary is in your last sentence. He was triangulating you with the therapist in order to project onto you, using the therapist’s real (or imagined) comments to devalue you.

      1. Mary says:

        Thanks HG!

  13. she says:

    Truthfully the only therapy that I finally found that helps a greatly is poetry. I vent through it. It helps. I not saying that real therapy doesn’t help, it just doesn’t stick. I have severe ADD. I always leave wishing I’d recorded my sessions.

    1. Love says:

      I love poetry too She! Your poem was very nice!

      1. she says:

        Thank you Love. I appreciate that you read and enjoyed it. There’s more where that came from too!

  14. Cara says:

    Look, they told me I had to stop drinking; I had to get treatment. So I stopped drinking & found a PRESCRIBING DOCTOR & I take my pills and they’ve stopped bitching at me…but no, I’m not cured.

    1. Love says:

      That’s my main objection with Western medicine. Throw prescription drugs at patients and charge them an arm and leg for an hour of ‘talking’. What happened to holistic care of an individual?

  15. Narc Magnet says:

    I have often said, “if the people who really needed therapy would get it, it would save the rest of us a lot of trouble and heartache.” People usually look at me strange when I say that. Many have been offended that I should say such a thing out loud. I would go on to say that it would be nice if there was some visual warning (flashing neon sign that reads: “danger!” for example) that one was dealing with a difficult person (at the time, I didn’t realize that those we need the biggest warning from was a Narc) to give one time to run away or simply not engage.

    HG your blog posts have been invaluable and I’m surprised to see how on target I was with what was happening, just not knowing who I was dealing with. Thank you for your continued thorough explanations that are not watered down to be more easily digested. Your insight is quite developed and reading about what you do from a non-theoretical perspective, while weighing on occasion, is welcomed.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Narc Magnet, I appreciate that.

    2. she says:

      I find it unfair why we are the ones to go to therapy for the damage that someone else has caused. I know it’s reality, but it’s oh so sad. It’s scary to realized that I’ve been in therapy for as long as I’ve been married which has been 17 years.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Most times I wonder if those administering the therapy aren’t looking for answers themselves. Observation not criticism. There are plenty who have been fooled or ensnared themselves during therapy by the narcissist and they have the information prior to encounter (albeit that of a textbook). As for warnings? There ARE flashing signs ( or red flags if you prefer). They are the too familiar too soon, the instant soul-mate, the immediate I love yous…..but Empaths think that they are so worthy and deserved of this behaviour they do not find it suspect. Is that not a bit narcissistic? What happened to: if it looks too good to be true it probably is? Or: buyer beware. We all have responsibility. Perhaps instead of asking them to wear a flashing sign others should first turn off their high beams, the ones lighting up the universe with: I believe in fairy tales, I believe that I can change the world with my love, I believe in you and will never give up on you despite what you do to me and how bad you make me feel, I believe, I believe, I believe………and then when I am faced with the awful truth, I deny, deny, deny……

  16. she says:

    I wish I were as clever as you
    If clever is what you’d call it
    Sitting in therapy chairs
    Fooling the unfooled
    Feeling proud of yourself
    Unaffected by the bullets shot
    While you sit there like you rule
    The world you say you know how you are
    Not ashamed of the scars
    You leave behind
    Tromping all over our delicate minds
    Those who hurt others
    will end up being hurt eventually
    Karma’s a bitch

    © she
    November 28, 2016

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Karma’s an invention,
      Used by the ones who taste defeat,
      Because we keep on succeeding,
      As we are set to repeat.

      1. she says:

        oooo! I like that HG, you a poet as well?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha thank you She. I can be whatever you would like me to be.

          1. she says:

            I don’t know when you’re serious or not. Are you playing a role?? If so, who’s the real you? If not, when do you let down your guard? Am I supposed to be talking to you as if your my narcissist husband or wife? I’m confused. Remember I just started following you so I have no idea what the hell is going n.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are dealing with me. I was demonstrating how we mirror you to show you what you would like to see. Thus, if you like poetry, I will be a poet for you.

          3. she says:

            Freaky… I just got chills… seriously

      2. Love says:

        Lol She. When Mr. Tudor says he will be whatever you want, tell him you want him to be yours and only yours. 😉
        Mr. Tudor, I want these kind of offers too.

  17. Elizabeth says:

    I have sought out treatment years before I new what was happening and not one could tell me what was happening. I only found my answers, as to the best i could describe, as if god whispered narcassist in my ear. Then after all the research I read it was only you HG that described it best. Everything you have ever written was exactly how my experience had occured. So what Im trying to say is out of all the therapy and counseling you have helped me the most. Thank you for that.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Elizabeth, I am pleased to read that.

    2. lovieland says:

      I second that, Elizabeth. Reading HG’s insights made me understand what I was dealing with, more so than any therapist ever did. Thank you HG.

  18. bloody_elemental says:

    This post made me giddy with delight. Absolute perfection, as always, HG.

    Studies have proven that at worst, therapy can actually worsen a narc/sociopath`s behavior because it is nothing more than a game to us.

    As HG already said – we do not want to change and we see no reason to change. There is nothing wrong with us. If we do end up treatment, it is because we have something (usually something very substantial) to gain from it.

    It is true we can and do learn from the experience, but it will not encourage or even force us to change our way of existing in the world.

    We are who we are. There is no hope for anything else.

    1. Violet says:

      Only we need to stay away. But what kind of world does that look like? FFS. What is realistic to expect?

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