Own

own

I want to own you.

I want to draw you into my world. A world where my rules are the only rules that matter. When I first set eyes on you I make it my business to ascertain your suitability for ownership. You might only be owned in the sense of being a tertiary source which I interact with the once, but in that moment, I own you and IΒ own the fuel that flows from you.

I wish to brand you as my property. My appliance. My plaything. I own you and this means that nobody else does. I have exclusive rights.

I may designate you the role of secondary source, should you make the grade and you become mine, subject to the unwritten contract that governs you and I. You are to be loyal, obedient, compliant and a provider of fuel.

If you are to be my primary source, that coveted position of supplier-in-chief of the most precious and desired fuel then you also must be owned. You must be subjected to my total and hegemonic control. Once I decide that you are the one, I will not stop. Once that light has turned green, once the first tantalising drops of your fuel have begun to be sucked up by me, there is no hope for anything else.

You must be mine. I must own you.

You at think that I look on you with love-lorn eyes. Indeed I do as I turn my precious orbs into the mirrors which give you what you want to see. Behind their silvery gaze, my machined machinations are forming. I am absorbing how you smile, how your wrinkle your nose, how you play with your hair on the left hand side of your head, never the right. I listen to the way you say ‘scone’ – do you say it so it rhyme with tone or with gone? Every word that will come from your mouth will belong to me. I want to know everything about you. Every facet of your life must now belong to me. When my hand touches you and you feel that jolt of electricity between you, that is my connection with you as I begin to download your life.

It is true that I have already screened you, probed you life from a distance, made enquiries and observed before launching my take-over bid. I have done my homework but now I want to dominate, conquer and subsume. I must envelop you in my world for then I can be sure that you will respond as I require. Loyal, reliable and functional.

Steadily I drain your identity from you, consuming it for my own use. This is part of the process of owning you. I know no boundaries, I see no limits, I recognise no restraint. I have decided that you are to belong to me and thus this is what must happen with the steady and incremental accumulation of what you are. I am plugged into you, the ultimate parasite which sucks the life from you. Your money becomes my money, your house becomes my house, your friends become my appliances. There is no real me. There is no substance and thus I must steal what you are in order to give the appearance of substance.

The only way I understand to do this is to own you. Make you part of the fabricated world that I have woven. This dazzling fiction fools so readily and as I part the curtain and beckon you in to my wonder land, you accept and once inside you become mine. The real world is left behind. The real world of rules, standards, procedures and fairness is no longer applicable to you. I own you now and as a consequence you are subject to my capricious nature, the arbitrary application of my diktats and pronouncements. None of it will make any sense to you when you start to realise what it happening but it will be too late by then. You assimilation into me will be so far gone that you may just well scream and the only voice you will hear will be mine.

My ownership means I tell you who to speak to and who to ignore. My ownership means that dress is wrong and that one is right until it is the other way around. Yesterday is tomorrow which becomes today. You think Josef K endured the Kafkaesque nightmare of nothing making sense? You ain’t seen nothing yet.

I must control everything. My space, time and the environment around you. This is why to you I seem to operate as if I have no concept of time, but that is because I do not operate to Greenwich Mean Time but rather Being Mean Time. I compartmentalise, shifting between worlds which must never connect, where the players and actors inside of them move to my direction. They dance to the tune that my invisible pipe plays. I must not leave anything to chance. I do not like chance. It is the ruin of me. I want predictable and eventually you will come to realise that there are few who are as predictable as my kind. We bring excitement, we bring chaos, we bring drama but it is all so predictable. The same manipulations, just variations on a theme. Some of us have more string to our dark cupid’s bow, but the poisoned arrows we fire all have the same effects. Control and fuel.

It is only by ensuring that we own you that we can be assured and convinced that you will do as we want you to, that you will not be disloyal or a traitor to us. We must plug you in to us and like some giant leech suck the very essence from you, taking your fuel, your confidence, your self-worth, your self-esteem and stripping you of them to ensure there is compliance and obedience.

I want to own so that I know I will win. I want to own you so I can exist.

I want to own you so that everything you do is as consequence of my decisions and my actions which ensure you provide me with my lifeblood whenever I demand it. You are on call and on demand, my primary source of salvation, the reason for my existence and I dare not allow the slightest chink of autonomy for fear of losing that control.

I want to own you to underline my superiority. I want to own you to remind myself that I am powerful. I want to own you so that it is repeatedly highlighted that I am the controller.

I want to own you to stop being the slave that I am.

274 thoughts on “Own

  1. D says:

    song texts to my ex: “You Don’t Own Me” ~ Grace (ft. G-Eazy)

    didn’t realize how much this must have cut him until this very moment. huh.

  2. Indy says:

    And root too lol

  3. NarcAngel says:

    HG
    With complete sincerity I think I just had an epiphany regarding fuel.

    1. Indy says:

      I would love be to hear your epiphany, NA! Fuel fascinates me as I believe we all use it. It’s just valued at different levels depending on who we are and how we were raised. Are you celebrating the new year up in the cold northern reaches or you coming down for some warmth 😊

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi INDY

        I would gladly share with you about the fuel if I could corral these memories and feelings into words. It was a strange and very sudden feeling. Also recognizing what I now know as triangulation. Im sorting through at present. Sadly I will not be heading south (I only go to Vegas) anytime soon. The Canadian dollar sucks and Im busy rebuilding my childhood (HA!) home right now. Its been cold but Im pleased to report very little snow. Its your Birthday soon and you are headed to DC. Is it for work? Well even if it is, you can always fit in some pleasure. Something nice look forward to and to start the New Year off well.

        1. Indy says:

          I’m sorry the Canadian dollar is down. I should head that way!

          Yeah, fuel and triangulation….so many of uswere raised with this dynamic and it feels normal to those who learned this way of being. Some people do not realize that it isn’t just narcissists that engage in triangles..same with fuel. We all use it, want it, feels good. It’s something that many of us have used and learned in unhealthy homes to survive. Just to different extents. But I’m still learning…. would love to hear your thoughts when you can put them in words.

          Ah, my trip will have some fun involved. Got some friends and we are road tripping and gonna party a lil bit. I’m marching for promotion and protection of laws regarding women’s rights and reproductive rights protection with my friends in DC. Don’t worry, I’ll be sure to get some fun in there. DC is an awesome place to museum hop and get our drink on after lol 😊

          1. NarcAngel says:

            A march! Very cool! Love someone who will stand up (and then party after).

          2. Indy says:

            Gloria Steinem is part!! Gonna be a huge historic march! Praying it’s peaceful enough. Don’t wish for people to be hurt. Just let the message be known. Yeah we are gonna celebrate a couple of things while there after march. My friend and her wife’s anniversary (they married in January in DC) and my birthday 🍸🍸

  4. NarcAngel says:

    HG

    Are you hiring?
    I wish to apply for a position and have the following credentials:

    I have been observed to be:
    Commanding
    Domineering
    Suffering from impulsivity, anger issues, underlying low self esteem, and possibly projection
    I write haphazardly
    Am insecure
    Possess a sense of humor that lacks discretion and class
    Lets not forget haughty

    Now, I was going to apply for the position of Authoritative Spokesperson but I understand that position has to be appointed (by you), so perhaps I should just apply for Team Narc where I will be expected to possess these qualities and thus can be appreciated and fawned over. I have forwarded a picture of my rock hard abs under separate cover as not to appear unbecoming in a public forum. Please advise what position if any you have for me.

    Thank you for your consideration
    NarcAngel

    1. MLA - Clarece says:

      Enough snarkiness. Especially in the spirit of the season.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        HG

        Are posts to you being monitored now? If so, please have your umm…. Receptionist? add snarky to my resume as that is an excellent suggestion and credential Please also provide the beginning and end dates for Snarky season as I have not yet even begun to be snarky and would very much like to participate in that season when it arrives. Thank you.

        Now if I may get back to the true intention of the blog: can you direct me to more information about these Lieutenants you use? More specifically how you recruit them and why their dedication and willingness to carry out these orders for you. I have just finished Sitting Target (have submitted a review) and noted their extensive use.

        Thank you

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hi NA, thank you for writing a review, I appreciate that. There is no other publication which deals with Lieutenants specifically but there will be further dedicated articles to follow and you can read about them more (amongst other things) in Manipulated and Escape.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            HG
            Thank you for the direction to information regarding Lieutenants. I would also like to take this time to thank you for your patience and dedication in attending to keeping the flow of conversations and answers timely-especially of late. It is a busy season for most and you have many other things to attend to as well as our issues and they sometimes stray from the educational standpoint ( but they are always educating in some way). The upside is we will have you at 3 million before too long. Any predictions on a date for that?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you NA, I appreciate stating as such. I anticipate 3 million by 22nd February.

        2. Indy says:

          Excellent question, NA. And often times they have No idea they have been manipulated to do his bidding. It takes some serious skill. I’m wondering how he got lieutenants to plant daffodils on Andrea’s lawn! He got them to break the law for him! Trespassing! HG do you as a greater get lieutenants to break the law for you? Not necessarily you specifically but greaters in general. Do greaters, not you, utilize hitmen?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Greater regularly use Lieutenants to carry out their dirty work, absolutely.

        3. MLA - Clarece says:

          I read in two of PTSD’s posts that she found your comments hurtful and to stop. Instead of sitting up and taking notice you continue with now what? The Cindy Brady tattletale move to hide behind HG. That’s cool.
          All you just did here was make it so when I see email comments from NA or NarcAngel to just skim on by. In reality, I don’t know you, and am fine to keep it that way. Carry on building up your resume with flattering attributes such as snarkiness.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            MLA

            I did stop and she continued.
            I am not hiding behind anyone. She asked me not in interact with her and so I complied.
            I will speak to HG when and however I like
            Just because you stumbled upon a blog on its first day does not mean you can moderate. You are still a participant here.
            I will continue to read your posts with interest because I am an adult
            Happy New Year

          2. NarcAngel, you stated:
            “I did stop and she continued.”
            Did you realize that you stopped with a very hurtful and presumptuous character attack? I naturally felt it necessary to defend myself. I originally explained my situation, thinking you would exercise rationale and an open mind to varied feelings from varied people. But your assumptions about me continued to be incorrect and judgemental. I later bid you good night. But you continued with another comment where you posted an application with your sarcastic credentials to HG.
            Are you on a mind altering intoxicant? Gaslighting perhaps? Is your narc’s behavior rubbing off on you? I am finding this as exhausting as knocking my head on a brick wall with a narc. Please see the facts.
            I like to remain polite, but i have a threshold too. All the best to you and goodnight.

          3. My last comment about disengaging with NA, placed above, should actually be at the bottom of this page. It was positioned in the middle of this page for some reason.

    2. Love says:

      NA, Mr. Tudor also likes a lady with a rude mouth. Please add to your cv, if you have such an attribute.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi LOVE
        Indeed I do have a rude mouth but no-one here has experienced it. I save that for the naughty stool. Will you still come to braid my hair and Indy come to burn sage when I am sent there for my time outs, or shall I expect to be alone until Mr Tudor attends to my spanking?

        1. Indy says:

          Hi NA,
          Sage ready 😊
          I have a potty mouth too! Comes with DBT experience….something Marsha Linehan never did discuss in her teachings….in DBT, must swear (just kidding, though a lot of true DBT therapists are spicy!!!)
          Muah

          1. HG do you feel that life is meaningless and work achievements are meaningless?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Hello AVS, not at all. Life is not meaningless and my work achievements are all part of the necessary effort that must be put in to achieve which in turn allows me to gain further fuel and exist as I wish to exist.

          3. Thanks HG, this gives me the answer to the ongoing depression I feel around them which has been due to machinations to create a “black hole” energy that life and work is meaningless.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome AVS.

          5. What would I be able to do to show them there is no point continuing that behaviour?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Show it does not have any effect on you.

          7. Thanks HG.
            As for my hopelessness when working around them, I am not sure how to navigate it.
            In my world, particularly working on dangerous projects or unpredictable deadlines, teamwork and connection is necessary. You need people to have your back. Narcissists take pleasure in stepping on you in those crucial moments you need to trust someone.

      2. Love says:

        NA, of course I will braid your hair! I will even use neon colored hair strands and glitter! I’ll sneak in a doobie for the 3 of us too … Indy this will be in celebration of your upcoming bday 😁
        You all can teach me how to curse, so I don’t sound so silly when I do it.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Thank you LOVE. I look forward to some mellow company and some glitter.

    3. NA and HG,

      I recommend NarcAngel highly for the outlined position.

      (I do not prefer to lay it out like this, but since it has been done to me, in my defence i will proceed).

      NA’s statements to me:

      “…I always have come away thinking that you place the most emphasis on his positive traits being his physicality, education, and now In his career.” – Incorrect assumption, domineering, presumptuous stance

      “… but what comes across ( to me at least) is that you admire these things and encourage him that he is not β€œnothing” because of how it reflects on you.” – Incorrect, domineering stance, judgemental, hurtful

      “What you describe above is a ‘normal’ with low self-esteem and not the destructive nature and delusional thinking of a narcissist.” – incorrect, domineering stance without therapist credentials

      “… it serves your purpose of feeling worthy to be chosen and able to be with someone like that because in actuality you do NOT feeling worthy of it yourself.” – incorrect, haughty, possible projection

      “I spoke up because you were angry at Ffion…” – very OBVIOUSLY incorrect, haphazard post

      “Do you have feelings of inadequacy that you need to elevate your Narc to feel worthy of him… ” – incorrect, possible insecurity and low self esteem yourself, possible projection

      “This does not paint a picture of a narc to me.” – incorrect, authoritative, domineering stance

      “… my indecent jokes but I am sorry to say that probably won’t stop anytime soon… ” – indiscrete sense of humour, authoritative

      “I have posed some questions to you and to others so that we may stop on occasion to review our behaviour from a standpoint outside of ourselves and I encourage you to do the same.” – commanding, domineering

      “Originally I was trying to steer your focus to what might be causing you to be concentrated more on his healing and issues rather than on your own… ” – commanding, domineering, based on false assumptions and without therapist credentials

      “… if a great set of abs and some work-out sweat does that for you then my mistake… ” – judgemental, impulsive statement, anger issues

      “…I will concern myself no more with your methods or recovery…” – did i ask you to? – – authoritative, domineering, haughty attitude

      “… and bore the other posters and HG no more with our dialogue” – anger issues, hurtful

      “He is indeed a lucky Narc to have you.” – sarcasm, anger issues, hurtful

      Pls evaluate your unfairness towards me. I am begging you, pls let’s stop this childish behavior. You have hurt me enough. I am here to heal, not to hurt 😒

      1. Love says:

        Don’t hurt PTSD. We love you ❀

        1. Thank you Love. I love you too. πŸ’—

  5. NarcAngel says:

    PTSD
    *******crickets*********
    Your post speaks for itself
    You win.

    1. NA, I am not interested in your childish game of winning or losing. But it amuses me that you think like this. Thank you and good night.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    PTSD
    Well don’t be sad. Or angry or frustrated. I assure you what I wrote was said in the most neutral of tones and was an honest observation more than a judgement. I have only read the things you love about your ex and how you want to help him. Never about how he has made your life difficult in being a narc or WHY he is your ex. So I was left with only the physical and successful parts of his personality as you point out that “you cannot compliment him on his internal qualities” as you both know he doesn’t have many. This left me with: (remember these were MY observations) he looks good, is educated and doing well career wise, is unable to support you much emotionally due to not having self worth, he is depressed and you focus your energy on saving him, and I have heard of no poor treatment of you by him. This does not paint a picture of a narc to me. So I will simply say You must have not intended it to sound that way or I have interpreted it incorrectly.

    I don’t know how to address the section regarding the eating of cake and the resulting weight and health implications but I will say that I very much like cake and leave it at that.

    I’m glad you got to release the pent-up frustration you had regarding my indecent jokes but I am sorry to say that probably won’t stop anytime soon unless HG requests it of me. It is a large part of who I am and how I cope. I suffered abuse also and far from wallowing in it, face it both seriously and head on in discussions that might make some people uncomfortable and also with humor that cannot please everyone.

    I feel very grateful to everyone on here who has shared and I am learning a great deal about Narcissism, myself, and how it has affected me. I have posed some questions to you and to others so that we may stop on occasion to review our behaviour from a standpoint outside of ourselves and I encourage you to do the same. If that sometimes causes friction I can only say you should address it and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. There was no intention to make you sad.

    1. NA,
      I documented my narc’s past ill treatment of me when i first joined this blog. He used to use the silent treatment often, especially the day after being intimate, which left me confused. I did not know he was a narc back then. After the golden period, he used to future fake, deflect, gaslight, project, blame shift. He often raised his voice at me if i requested his time. After 2.5 yrs, I found his profile on a casual sex website, which devastated me. I was suicidal and he offered little help. He said if i tell anyone, i would lose him.

      Luckily, the devaluation phase is over. I escaped him. But he has no ipps right now and he is depressed. (He had an ipss but he had left her for me, after i expressed my extreme discontent). He hoovered me and i gave in. Now we are just friends but my heart goes out to him. He doesn’t want to live. He is no longer employing emotional abuse towards me. But i know that can change anytime. Since he is being kind these days, and since i am still in love with him, admire him for what he’s made of himself despite the childhood sexual abuse, and am drawn to his looks and his body, it is very hard for me to resist him. We text often, and he tells me he’s just been to the gym. Instead of being intimate with him again, i come on the blog, make reference to the image in my mind of him working out, and leave it at that.

      For reference, my narc’s body looks like this, but with chest hair and more defined abs: #2 channing tatum pre ‘Magic Mike’ in the series of pics

      http://www.fitgirlcode.com/5-shirtless-hot-guys-instant-motivation/

      Just like you will continue with your indecent jokes, i too, will continue to describe the image in my mind of my narc’s physique. If i choose not to have him, at least i can talk about it here (only here).

      I am willing to be introspective of my behavior. Like i said, i have learned from you that i do gain something from my narc while helping him come out of his depression, even if it is just the interaction with him.
      Thank you for your input. Good day to you.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        PTSD

        I have yet to see the physique of a man that could detract me from the fact that he would be of little help if I were suicidal, so I will decline use of the link you provided, but thank you. Originally I was trying to steer your focus to what might be causing you to be concentrated more on his healing and issues rather than on your own (I mean your name is Ptsdafternarcabuse right?) but if a great set of abs and some work-out sweat does that for you then my mistake and I will concern myself no more with your methods or recovery, and bore the other posters and HG no more with our dialogue He is indeed a lucky Narc to have you.

        1. NarcAngel,
          I said my narc was of little help to me when i was suicidal. I did not say he was of no help to me. He helped me the best he could, considering that he has no feelings, and wants to help by being best friends forever. Like i said earlier, i love him, and i would be lying if i said i am not attracted to his physique too. We are on this blog to be honest. If my honesty bothers you then i am sorry.
          Perhaps you are not attracted to physical appearance. Perhaps you are a saint, like mother theresa, but i am not. I am an emotional co-dependent, i have much love and caring to give, and i have hormones as well. I feel strongly physically attracted to someone i’m in love with. I will not hide or deny that.

          You stated that you wish to steer my focus towards my healing and not just his. First of all, i am trying to heal. Why do you think i’m on this blog? Why do you think i choose to no longer be intimate with my narc? Please don’t assume what you do not know about. And if i am focussing on his healing too, well then that is the empath and co-dependent in me coming out, and i feel there is nothing wrong with that. I am a sincere and giving person, and i don’t apologize for that.

          I am here to be honest, to vent my feelings, and to progress in my healing. I felt i was 80% healed, but your judgemental comments have hurt me.

          My diplomacy prevented me from saying this, but i do not hesitate any longer since you are very forward in predicting my insecurities, which you are wrong about, and which i never invited you to do. I don’t prefer to boast, but i feel it is required here. Fyi, i am slim, attractive, and intelligent – 3.9/4.0 gpa in college. Other posters have exhibited very high self esteem, stating that countless men are “vying” for their attention, for example Bloody Elemental, but you do not predict that they have underlying low self esteem. Why are you after me? My assumption is that you are insecure about yourself. Perhaps you are projecting? Please use some common sense before haphazardly writing your post. You seem to have issues with impulsivity and anger management.

          Also, i would appreciate it if you do not pass judgement on me. I am not on this blog to be judged and hurt in the process.

          For my sanity, i do not wish, nor ever wished to engage with you either. Since you are being judgemental towards me, i will state my opinion about you as well. I find you too domineering and commanding towards other posters. You are not the authoritative spokesperson on this blog, unless HG gave you a job i wasn’t aware of. And frankly, your indecent posts about your “naughty bits” and “fur-lined bras” lack discretion and class. I feel very sorry for your narc. All the best to you!

          (I have a feeling that your haughty attitude will prevent you from even reading this, but if you’ve made it this far, then congratulations!)

      2. Love says:

        Oh PTSD! Yummy yummy yummy. I didn’t read the comments. I just clicked on the link you provided because I saw ‘shirtless guy’. Your man looks like Magic Mike ? Mmmn Mmmmn mmmm.
        With a body like that, all his narcly ways are forgiven.
        I have pardoned him πŸ˜‰

        1. Yes Love. I posted the link for reference, so that others can know exactly what i’m dealing with. My narc also does cute things like lift up his tshirt, hold the bottom of his tshirt between his teeth, look down at his chest and scratch it, just to tempt me. He knows i’m in love with him, and uses his body to tease me further. But i will not budge. I will not be intimate with him again. If i had known that posting the link would offend pple, i may not have done so. In retrospect, i apologize if i have offended anyone.

      3. Love says:

        I’m not offended at all! If anything I’m very happy you did. Everyone needs a little eye candy in their life πŸ˜‰

  7. Ffion says:

    ptsdafternarcabuse said:
    “My narc: i’m nothing Me: but you are something, don’t you see that? Just because you don’t have every emotion, why do you think you’re nothing? My narc: i don’t know”
    ***********************************
    I think you need to examine why you are attracted to losers with something wrong with them, I think it has it’s roots in your low self esteem. Your ex was a loser that no healthy women would want to touch with a barge pole and yet you insisted on kidding yourself that he had many wonderful traits when he really didn’t…you have a personality flaw. Do you know why you live in a delusional fantasy world?

    1. Maybe she feels this way for the same reason you feel it necessary to kick a dog when it’s down. Hmm?

      1. Thanks ABB. Hope you had an enjoyable xmas!

    2. Hello FFION, season’s greeting to you!
      My ex is not a loser, far from it. When i am with him, he is affectionate, responsive, and shows caring and love.
      His friends would describe him as very popular due to his personality, courage (would fight in college for what he believes in), and physique (body building), and was voted as class president. He is 3 yrs post graduation now. He has completed a masters degree and is holding a full-time, respected, high paying, white collar job. He is motivated and very hard working. He is an avid reader, gym-goer, and actively involved in sports teams, and wins many tournaments. He likes to keep his body busy, and physically fit.
      Yet, he thinks he is nothing. This is because he is a narcissist and has no sense of self. If you read this blog regularly, you will learn more about narcissism. I try to encourage my ex to not say things like that because it hurts me. He is definitely not nothing. He is something, much more than something!
      With respect to appearance, he is 6′ tall, could easily be a model, and has a body like channing tatum’s (not too buff but enough muscle in the pecs and abs, with broad shoulders and a slim waist). His sense of style is impeccable.
      He kisses and makes love in the most beautiful way i’ve ever experienced, touching, caressing, and holding me with the gentlest motions.
      With all these positive traits, i will obviously encourage my ex to open his eyes and see them. Wouldn’t you?

      1. NarcAngel says:

        PTSD

        Im going to be 100% honest. I read your post above and several of your previous posts about your Narc and I always have come away thinking that you place the most emphasis on his positive traits being his physicality, education, and now In his career. Those are things to be celebrated to be sure, but what comes across ( to me at least) is that you admire these things and encourage him that he is not “nothing” because of how it reflects on you. What you describe above is a “normal” with low self-esteem and not the destructive nature and delusional thinking of a narcissist. I always end up thinking that you want to help him see that he is something because it serves your purpose of feeling worthy to be chosen and able to be with someone like that because in actuality you do NOT feeling worthy of it yourself. I spoke up because you were angry at Ffion and while I dont encourage attacking someone to provoke a reaction ( well on here anyway), that I admit to seeing their point (albeit not as strongly). Do you have feelings of inadequacy that you need to elevate your Narc to feel worthy of him ( hypothetical question- I don’t require an answer), or am I and apparently at least one other, misinterpreting your posts?

        1. Hello NA,
          Season’s greeting to you!

          You stated:
          “What you describe above is a ‘normal’ with low self-esteem and not the destructive nature and delusional thinking of a narcissist.”

          Over the last 3 yrs, after the golden period, on different occasions, my narc has said:
          1) i don’t have any emotions
          2) this world is not for me
          3) i am nothing but i can be anything
          4) i lost my identity
          5) i hate this world and everyone in it
          And the big give-away,
          6) you will only see your reflection

          It left me sad, confused, and wanting to seek the truth about him. I finally discovered narcissism. He is without a doubt a narc.

          Your second point:
          “I always have come away thinking that you place the most emphasis on his positive traits being his physicality, education, and now In his career. Those are things to be celebrated to be sure, but what comes across ( to me at least) is that you admire these things and encourage him that he is not β€œnothing” because of how it reflects on you.”

          After researching daily, i finally discovered and pointed out that he is a narc. He then became brutally honest with me that he cares for nobody, loves nobody, feels no guilt, etc. but that he can reflect it easily. I cannot compliment him on his internal qualities because he and i both know now that he doesn’t posess many of them. However, I told him narcissism is not his fault, that it is a result of childhood trauma. He finally admitted to me that he was sexually abused in childhood for 3 yrs by a male adult. He had hinted at it a few years earlier, but he did not want to talk about it further. I cried for days when he finally told me.

          He is depressed right now. I want him to feel better. So I concentrate on what he does have. I am proud of what he has become, despite the horrendous sexual abuse. He has drive and ambition towards excelling in his career and in looking after his body. He only weighs 165 lbs (6′ tall) but still refuses a slice of cake. This takes alot of will power, especially since he has room for more pounds. So i compliment him on these achievements – drive, ambition, excelling in his career, taking care of his body. (For those pple who don’t refuse a slice of cake, i can tell you that it’s very hard, especially when everyone around you is indulging in it. I weigh 114lbs and i refuse cake except on birthdays and special occassions, so i know how difficult it is). With each of his external attributes, there is an internal dedication that drives it, and it is to be admired, and i point it out to him.

          You stated:
          “… you do NOT feeling worthy of it yourself.”

          Why would i not feel worthy of it? I work very hard on my figure as well, and i indeed feel worthy of someone who takes care of his body too. In fact, i feel healthy eating is very important and cannot understand why anyone would indulge in food cravings and sacrifice their body being unhealthy. I find it especially hard to do grocery shopping and ignore all the cakes, cookies, ice creams etc. Even though i’ve never been over 118lbs in my life, i still do this, so i do not get into a weight situation that is difficult to reverse. This requires alot of perseverence, dedication, diligence, and consistency, and i acknowledge these traits in me. And i value these traits in my significant other.

          You stated:
          “I spoke up because you were angry at Ffion… ”

          Did i sound angry at Ffion? I believe i was diplomatic and simply setting the facts straight. I may not have written it in my post but on another occasion when my narc said “i am nothing,” he also added “but i can be anything.” The discussion was about the narc not having a sense of self, and i found it appropriate to bring it up at this point. We are all here to discuss what our narcs say, in order to gain further understanding, are we not?

          Right now, my narc and i have decided to be just friends. I tried to escape him but i ultimately could not resist the hoovers. He is depressed and i want to help him get better. I have learned from you that i get something in return too, which is the interaction with him. He moved but he wants to visit me. I want to see him so badly, but i refused. I am worried that if i see him, we will be intimate again as has happened so many times in the past, because a) i still love him, and b) i find his looks and body irresistible. I am just being honest here. So if i keep mentioning his physicality on this blog, it is because I am in the active process of trying to resist him, which is very very hard!

          NA, there are a few posts of yours that i have an opinion about, namely when you asked another poster to hold up your skirt and take a pic of your “naughty bits” for HG, and more posts similar to that. Even though it was a joke, i found it to be an indecent joke and not becoming in a public forum. But i know you will just tell me to “lighten up” as you have done so in the past. I never mentioned my opinion about your posts though I could have, because i believe it is better to learn from each other and stay on topic. However, you went ahead and mentioned your opinion about my post. This makes me sad.

  8. Ffion says:

    Children need validation in order to develop a proper sense of self.They need their parents to help them get a sense of who they are.Parental validation is key with regard to them establishing a healthy self worth.A child who is not validated enough by caregivers is likely to find everyday life stressful because they will not feel confident in social situations or any situation where they have to be their own supporter.

    An example of validation:If a baby needs to eat the parent would show he/she understands (validate the baby) by giving them a drink. If the baby cries because it needs to be changed, the parent changes the nappy.The needs get met = needs get validated . As a child gets older it continues in more of a recognizable way. For example, a child will be praised for his/her abilities around tasks. “You did such a good job crawling over to me.” As he/she gets older same thing, “You did such a good job writing your name.” It is important for a child’s actions and feelings to be validated by the parents because the parent’s validations get internalized into a core identity, so as the child gets older he or she can provide their own validation, his own sense of self appreciation and self soothing.

    Basically, the concept is … if a child is validated enough he or she will have the confidence to get through life and feel good about themselves (and develop an authentic sense of self) .Children who do not get sufficient validation are considered by psychologists to be at risk of developing a damaged personality.

    A parent who fails to provide enough validation leaves their child with an underdeveloped shaky sense of self.Children who do not develop a proper sense of self tend to find it very difficult to get through life situations successfully because they lack the necessary inner confidence and self belief. If a child is constantly invalidated it changes how they think, feel, and process information,it causes developmental trauma. A person who lacked sufficient validation in their formative years tends to develop a shame based identity where they feel alienated from their real self.This means they will always look to others to define them and approve of them. When there is no one around to fulfill that role they tend to feel very helpless & agitated – this is the feeling responsible for obsessive attachments-in this guy’s case an obsessive search for narcissistic supply.

    I disagree with Indy…going to therapy as an attempt to fix this is not helpful and it will not work. A self is formed in early years and cannot be created in adulthood. These people had a window of opportunity in childhood & that was missed and that is that.

    1. SII says:

      FFION

      Your point with validation is a very good point. I search for my mother’s validation for years I never got.

      I want to be better, if someone should ever tell me it won’t happen it would be damaging.
      You can not go back in time and wish it all away. You can change your future and that’s what is most important in our lives.
      HG has come along way in 16 months. His writings are still chilling but there is another mask that is searching. He is healing on this blog. When it’s him questioning and listening. He is trying to understand what happened to him. I don’t believe he is fooling us here and I have seen major growth. Please don’t say anyone like this can’t get better. That’s a devastating fact to bring forward to others trying to make a difference.
      Im not criticizing you at all. I just want you to know these statements can stop growth when read by some people.

      HG, do you feel you have grown in these 14 months?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Have I grown? I have certainly learnt a lot.

    2. Indy says:

      Hi FFion,
      What specifically do you disagree with in what I wrote above? I did not state therapy “fixes” anything. It isn’t the role of a therapist to fix or cure, but help people develop tools to function better and heal trauma the best they can. As a mental health professional who specializes in a type of therapy that was uniquely developed for borderline personality disorderBPD, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, I know the role of validation. And teaching self validation and mindfulness in even adulthood makes a significant difference in people’s lives that have severe symptoms of emotional disregulation and suicidal tendencies. I spoke of therapy for BPD, not NPD, those with BPD also has a reduced sense of self.. and can heal and improve functionaly. I’ve witnessed this and do this as s therapist. It is not hopeless to change and heal from trauma. That’s just not fact.

      If you read in detail what I write on here , I never claim “fixes”…but improved functioning and increased sense of self with use of DBT and mindfulness. I also never claimed to cure NPD or fix that either. Not my specialty and never claimed I was. I always recommend those in abusive relationships to leave, as does HG here. Further, I suggest you research the success rates of DBT with BPD before you make definitive claims on healing a reduced sense of self.

      Finally, I do not believe that people are “damaged” goods. This is why therapists, including those that work with HG in his personal life actually do the work they do. People are not disposable.

      Final remark, no one here recommends anyone stay in abusive relationships. It’s not the point of the blog. Yes, we all have to look at our own role in why we are attracted to those with NPD to avoid this in the future and if they had obvious signs in the beginning, may still would not step in the situation. It is NOT validating to tell a woman who had gone through recent abuse, “you have a personality flaw.” and saying she lives in a fantasy delusion is invalidating the unique abuse that NPD abuse is….insidious and emotionally toxic and highly skilled manipulation. You just invalidated all of her experience in that comment. That comment is judge mental and hurtful and not supportive or helpful. How about offering understanding and suggestions of what worked for you, if you are a survivor of this? Judging just causes isolation and self shame.

      1. DFA says:

        Well said Indy.
        People can heal, people are not damaged goods.

      2. Thank you indy. You are correct. If i had known he was a narcissist, i would not have become involved with him to begin with. I am sure many pple on this blog feel similarly about their narcs.

    3. I agree that therapy is very helpful, but if you are going to get a narcissist to go back to that danger zone, it can also be so harmful that they do not.

      I do believe with a lot of guys, they were raised by a mother who was either abused or neglected so badly by her male caretaker that she holds such disdain for men or is overly submissive to men. She cannot be a strong female character for her son to relate to. He relates to her as either a whipping stick, a little prince, or a spouse. Anything but normal. So HIS power and strength don’t develop healthily and he sees a woman as a whipping stick or a slave, or an admirer.

      1. Indy says:

        Africanviolet,
        I totally see your point. There are really distorted views of women in those situations, for sure. Often leading to hatred of women. Therapy is helpful for those with a variety of issues though, those with NPD are less likely to go to therapy…and, when they do with a partner it is often used to manipulate sessions and partners. The best advice is to leave and go NC if you are the partner. Agreed πŸ’―! And therapists are often conned in these sessions.

  9. HG, do you think you don’t feel pain because you do not have the value shown to you in the first place to know you’ve lost it? By that I mean, I was watching a psychologist deliver a talk on neglect that causes narcissism and a lack of “awe” shown to the narcissist by the mother, that is, interest that meets the needs of the baby’s ego to create character. Without that need fulfilled it would remain blank and so if there was a deviation in the external environment you might not get the message that you have lost what you deserve which is how we might experience “pain”.
    This man said the narcissist is only raised as a tool for the parent’s ego gratification or ignored/humiliated, hence only the two states are created (narcissistic gratification or narcissistic injury). The pain we feel would come if the baby’s other needs were met and character had formed, so that in the instance you lost it, you would feel that pain.

  10. Dear HG,

    Would it be impossible for you not to abuse a fuel-laden empath who worked under your authority, even if you found them pleasant?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not at all, they are most likely to be a non-intimate secondary source and therefore would enjoy an elongated golden period so long as they operated effectively.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        In other words, your professional life is far too important to the construct and image you project to risk making waves with the fuel lines there. But oh what fun it is to go home and tell the IP all about your perfect assistant for some triangulation. Can’t let that great supply completely go to waste.
        Yeah, I had that boss many, many years ago.

  11. Wordpress says:

    Lol

  12. Wow, WTF happened here? I could have saved myself from an email exchange with Narcimum to get my drama fix! It’s like Narc week on Narc Geo or narc tank where everyone wants to give HG 95% of their business for a golden loan that they have to pay back with 100% interest. Tertiary fuel? Not Today!

  13. You have bought the facade!

  14. “There is no real me. There is no substance and thus I must steal what you are in order to give the appearance of substance.”
    I cannot understand this for some reason. I feel there is a real you. A real you who has a rich past, who has many hobbies and talents, who is polite, well spoken, and articulate. There is a real you HG. You just need to see it.

    1. PANA,
      They cannot see it. They are empty inside. They draw self esteem from external sources, not internal. They feel like they give people what they want to see to get their accolades and approval. If they do not receive it, they become depressed, lonely angry and start to breakdown. They don’t see their traits as belonging to them. They see it as an act. They have a bucket with a hole in it that must constantly be filled. They need people. They resent that. They make them alive by helping keep the external personality fixed. Now on the narc scale you have those with a tiny hole in the bucket or you have those with no bottom to their bucket and the filling has to be a continuous flow. Narcissistic people need to learn how to gain internal self esteem and learn to feel. They have a limited amount of feelings. They have to be unlocked one by one. It takes a great deal of courage and endurance to relive the trauma that caused the emptiness and locked down the emotion. They do not believe they are the traits as people describe them. They believe they give people what they want and get what they need from them. Which is validation that they are approved of. They have such self assurance that you would never once see them as incapable. They are natural leaders, speakers, schmoozers if you will. Spin doctors. They have to be to hide the gaping hole inside where the creature lurks to destroy. It is a torturous life, but one that can be escaped. They just have to realize that the traits are their identity, they posess those traits and that self esteem from internal fills hole healthier than filling externally. Hope that helps.

      1. Indy says:

        Very nicely summarized, ABB!

      2. Hello ABB, thank you for your detailed explanation. Why do you think narcs don’t see the traits as their own? For example, when my narc is alone (and therefore not mimicking), he enjoys reading, poetry, jogging, tennis, working out, listening to certain genres of music, etc. These all make up his personality i thought. But for some reason, he also says ‘i am nothing.’ I just can’t grasp this.

        1. Indy says:

          Hi PTSD,
          I hope it is OK if I jump in here. Personality is a deep thing, more than external interests. It is a sense of self, of personal values and such. Sure, ones interests are part of that too, though, often times those with weaker senses of self often will mimic other peoples interests to build rapport with others and attempt to fill that inner void. HG talks about the mimic being used as well during golden period to make you think you “found the one”. However, I do believe that many folks with a variety of Cluster B traits/diagnoses, underdeveloped sense of selves, etc, do indeed have their own interests as well. Through the process of discovering new interests while with others, they discover they actually genuinely may like some of these themselves and may excel in some of these too. Like HG talks of his love for writing, his appreciation for the arts, etc….I believe these are sincere. Some are not sincere, used as tools by some, used to connect with others by some…sometimes both at the same time. Does that make sense?

          1. Thank you indy.
            Do you mean that:
            A) a narc may adopt somebody else’s interests and hobbies by mimicking, then grow to like it, so that it becomes a personal interest? and
            B) since personality also consists of personal values, are these personal values very changeable depending on who the narc is with?
            My narc is orthodox and believes that premarital sex is a sin. But he had pre-marital sex with me. I thought he loved me, so that’s why he excused it. Anything for love! But a few yrs later, I found him on casual sex web sites. This is totally against his belief system. Does he even have a belief system? His friends and family look up to him for his moral compass. Your thoughts on this are appreciated. Thank you.

          2. Sii says:

            Hope it’s ok to jump in. I think there is a deeper level of not know who what you are.
            First my upbringing was horror. I dissociated threw the first 20 years of my life. I am clinically diagnosed as borderline personality disorder. I was raised by a narc. Mother and had no one to help me.
            When you are not shown love or feel love as a child it’s a foreign emotions. As you get a little older you shut off any love and emotions in that category. In my case I from the day I was born was hated. I never saw love in my house. What I thought was love was the movies and all the mush. I had no clue there was any feeling attached. You are detached until something monumental changes.
            Now with dissociation you remember nothing. School is a blur. Any learning lessons I should have had to show me what I wanted to be are not reachable for me. I literally have no clue who I am, what I like and what I want to do. These things at my age 50’s are very hard to do and scary because I was not from birth taught anything but hate and anger.
            When your childhood is literally lost you don’t know it. I like a narc conform myself to the situation I am in. Because it’s the only thing I know.
            Imagine what it’s like to wake up each day not knowing who you are and how I am going to conform to fit in today.
            Why I became an empath. I was conforming to those I was drawn to. The ones with great personalities and a lovely heart.
            I am not giving excuses for the narcs behavior but I understand them very well.
            I know they were not taught anything loving from the mother.

          3. What is the difference between borderline personality disorder and someone who is just damaged?

          4. Sii says:

            Borderline folks do not have a grey area in there life. We see everything either black or white. We have a list of bad behaviors. We can be emotionally unstable. Everything in life is either really good or really bad. We are damaged but our behavior makes things much worse.

          5. Indy says:

            Hi African Violet,
            As a therapist and one that specializes in borderline personality disorder(BPD) and those with traits of it, I actually do not describe people as damaged. I see people with unique strengths and weaknesses due to a combination of genetics and environment (abuses and traumas and posditive events combined). Some one with BPD, as SII said, have intense emotional reactions, see things in a black/white manner, often have fear of abandonment, often a reduced sense of who they are, and often suffer from very difficult suicidal thinking and some engage in self harm. It’s very painful. They also have unique strengths too, such as often being quite creative and perceptive! Some are amazingly caring ….so it’s very individual too, like all things.

            Someone who has been traumatized but not diagnosed as fully BPD may have similar symptoms but not as life long and may have a stronger sense of self.

            I hope this helps.
            Peace and ❀️

          6. The Punisher says:

            Thanks Indy! I found that helpful. What is your opinion on high functioning bpd? Is it even a thing?

          7. Indy says:

            Hi Punisher!

            High functioning is a thing, though not officially diagnosed. As a therapist, I would refer to high functioning BPD as someone that has learned to manage several of the symptoms to the degree of being able to have a satisfying career, a social circle or social support network , and not be actively engaging in self endangering behaviors. For example, the creator of Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Marsha Linehan, PhD, is an example of a high functioning person that also has BPD. It’s definitely possible!!

          8. SII says:

            Indi

            Very nice job in describing what we are. I do fall in all 9 category. I spent money like it was nothing, I cheated, I have an eating disordered. I was arrested at 18. I used to cut the bottoms of my feet, it was the most pain and continued when I walk. That literally cut any emotional pain because I now had physical pain. I tried suicide at 16. I am a very high functioning nurse.
            I did not no this was your specialty. Not an easy one for you. I know how hard my doctors have worked to pull me through. They truly wanted healing for me. The hardest part for me to grasp was 30 plus years of therapy and not one doctor mention the possibility of a narc mom. It was not until I ran across a narc man and watched his behavior for several months that I realized what my mom was. That was the turning point to my healing. I now have answers to what I was and what I am not.

          9. Indy says:

            Hi SII,
            You are a true warrior! My deep respect to the work you have done to survive, that is no small feat! It is so hard to keep doing the work over the years, and so worth it. Yes, I have come to learn that eating disorders are also common too. I was to,d. Y my supervisors that there is a very special relationship between NPD and BPD. Often, have a parent with NPD can be traumatic enough to trigger development of a PD or other things. I am glad I found this blog to help me further understand NPD now too.

            I have seen many with high functioning BPD do very well, particularly in the caring fields, such as medical and mental health!! That caring component is so strong. It’s like a hole was dug in the soul from all that abuse early in life, a hole that now holds so much caring. This is like my own personal healing too, from pretty intense major depressive disorder. I too had frequent suicidal ideation, it nearly took me out. Thank god for therapy and antidepressants for me. It is part of what helps me understand aspects of BPD so personally.

            Yes. I am a DBT therapist and looking to expand in on other forms of trauma informed based therapies. My training is with adolescents and young adults with BPD and traits. it is challenging though inspiring work for me. I love it.

          10. SII says:

            That’s great Indy! More people need to understand BPD.
            Even with all my therapy it was not until 9 years ago, I was given my diagnosis.
            It scared me to death to have a name to all my behaviors. At least I now had something to work with.
            Yes I believe there is a bond with the narcicist and myself.
            HG upbringing and child order is exact to mine. One exception my mother was a lesser. I was certainly not pushed to better myself. I now understand that’s because she had only a high school education and she did not want me to have anything more then her. I worked my butt off in nursing school, having basically lost my grammar school education. When I got excepted into nursing school my mother said congratulations but your not smart enough to finish. I finished.
            I feel narcissistic pain that they hide or can’t feel. I can’t physically be near them. I do have deep respect for both HG and the narc that crossed my path. They are survivors but learned to in the best way they new how to grow. I understand it’s not there fault. They can’t bond to anyone and I understand that to. While I don’t hate them, except my mother. They can’t hurt me.

          11. SII says:

            Indy

            Interesting your specialized in DBT.

            I have been in three courses and could never finish any of them. Each time I would start I would disassociate. Apparently it’s to painful for me to participate in. I hope to be able to try again in the future. It’s to much of a struggle to try and stay present and not slip. My doctors put it on the back burner for now.

          12. Snow White says:

            Hi SII,
            I have read your story here since August and I have the utmost respect for you. You are an incredibly strong woman. You have taught me so much about the different personally disorders and how you have put some of your therapies to work.
            I have enjoyed reading everything that you have wrote. Wishing you continued success in your journey. I know you don’t do warm hugs so I will just send you virtual happy thoughts.

          13. Sii, thank you for your input. You said: “As you get a little older you shut off any love and emotions in that category.” Does this not make you a narcissist? Why were u diagnosed as borderline? Borderlines have intense emotions. I am borderline, and i either love alot, or i hate alot.
            Regardless, your explanation is adding to my gradual understanding about the narc’s sense of self. Thank you.

          14. Sii says:

            I am not a narcicits for the simple reason I have way to much empathy for people to hurt them. I did a lot of horrible things to my husband at the time. Father of my 2 adult kids. I had no clue what I was doing because I was dead to any kind of feelings that were warm and fussy. I remember us having arguments about my spending or affairs and I would just say ok and look at him blankly. I did not understand the big deal.
            Once I had a pivotal moment my life changed and I now have the ability to feel love and horrible remorse. My biggest support is my kids dad. He now understands how I really was raised and has forgiven me. My kids have forgiven me and I now trying to forgive my narcisitc mother. I have had a great teacher but I will need a lot of time.

          15. MLA - Clarece says:

            Merry Christmas SII! I have the deepest admiration and respect for you and am in awe at what you’ve overcome. You mention that you had a pivotal moment in your life that allowed you to now be able to feel love and remorse. Are you glad / relieved or how would you describe getting to feel those emotions? Has the journey through therapy been worth it to get that?

          16. SII says:

            Hi MLA,

            I will continue in therapy. I have wonderful doctors.
            The love I felt was amazing. It was my kids father, I first felt it with. After all I had put him threw, I looked in his eyes and new he loved me. Also new as my life was being pulled together that he loved me enough to be here for me as I healed. In one swift moment, I was shown what it felt like to be truly forgiven and loved. It was the most beautiful gift he ever gave me. If I did not have him I am not sure I would be continuing to heal. I walked away in tears of true sorrow for what I had done to him. Something I never felt before. I also then learned I had the key to my heart I new how to turn it on, and when I need to turn it off . I know this doesn’t sound healthy but I hope with continued therapy, I won’t feel like a bad think is about to happen to me, if I keep my heart open all the time. I am really a true work in progress. However, I love the job because the rewards are huge.
            The train I am on goes full speed. I need someone along the ride who knows my better then anyone, including myself. I am constantly quizzing him about how things feel.
            Merry Christmas to you as well MLA.

          17. MLA - Clarece says:

            SII, you are most deserving and worthy of that kind of unconditional love. My sermon at Christmas mass last night didn’t come close to how inspirational that was. It’s your time in life to shine.
            (And nice testimony for HG to hear too.)

          18. Sii says:

            Thank you MLA and everyone on this blog for your kind words. There much appreciated.

            SII

          19. Thank you for your explanations. I think everyone is correct in saying that there are various degrees of impacts in survival of adversity and labelling isn’t helpful.
            It might sound strange, but my mother displayed alternating states of sociopathy, narcissism and borderline personality disorder.
            The sociopathy I believe was her brain injury caused by neglect and a stone cold mother, who was herself neglected in the war era. Narcissism appeared to be a coping mechanism for all of the siblings in a wealthy yet loveless family. And borderline arose with her romantic relationships, perhaps she had a morsel of her emotional wiring intact which also allowed her to parent me somewhat properly in the early years.I remember her being adoring, warm and consistently there.
            I am fascinated learning all of this now from you and looking again at my past. A psychopath father, this mother and a narcissistic psychopath brother. Yet, we still had quite a good time! I can remember falling over laughing at dinner all of the time. And the abuse of course, but I’d say all things considered I definitely grew myself up on the positive times.
            There is much to be discovered in psychology and evidently it must begin with analysing parenting techniques. I would argue that in bigger, busier cities, I have seen aggravated states of the disorders.

          20. In relation to psychopathy/narcissism, I would say I prefer psychopaths because they are less silly and easy to solve problems together with, without using the ego. Providing they have been raised well and control themselves, it can be pleasant working with them (from a distance anyway).
            In fact, I believe because I learned to solve problems this way that I irritate narcissists because I do not react when they flap around. It was my empathy that let me down in the end, and loneliness.
            I find it so very amusing after reading this site and learning that my mother is a mid-range that she would have been unaware of being ensnared by a psychopath. After all the times she smirked at me. Who is the one who got played? lol

          21. Sii says:

            I didn’t answer that all the way. I do have intense emotion. Huge anger and rage issues. I also am a trama nurse would lives for the emotion in the high pace. I will either like you or hate you. If you cross my line I hate you. It doesn’t take much. I have many more on my hate side then my like. Because I was never taught someone can be a good person but you don’t have to like them. I hope to have it all figured out someday.

          22. SII, thank you for your reply. You refer to a pivotal moment in your life that allowed you to experience love. This must have been life changing! Love is the most beautiful feeling on earth! I am happy that your children’s father has offered you support. It is a great blessing!
            I think that many people here hope that their narc will some day have such a pivotal moment in their lives too. But unfortunately narcs cannot love 😞
            Having bpd myself, my emotions are very strong. When i love, i love alot. Hence, my complete love and addiction to my narc. I wish you the best of health and continued success in self discovery. πŸ’—

          23. The Punisher says:

            PTSD, I believe borderlines shut off love to avoid being hurt, which is a feeling a narc doesn’t experience.

          24. Punisher, i believe you are correct. I am borderline like SII. When one of my best friends betrayed me, i started hating her. Perhaps it was just me shutting off love to avoid being hurt further. Thank you for the insight.

          25. Indy says:

            That is an interesting observation, Punisher!!! I am gonna think about that…they may both shut down, but at differing points in life…one totally (NPD) and one with more ability to open and close that door tight (BPD) …hmmm….nods, I’m thinking you may have a point here on this!!! πŸ€“
            I hope you are doing well Punisher!!!! Happy early new year, girl!!!

        2. Pana,
          To you it is a simple deduction that you are those traits. To the narcissist they do not have an identity. They take others identity and use it to form an identity of self. They do not believe in a true self as it was stripped away from abuse. It was locked down. They judge their personality by outward responses to their behaviors. This draws negative behavior, this draws positive behavior. The trick is that they have to develop an internal self esteem and buy into the fact that the traits others see are actually possessed by them. There are personality traits that YOU see as belonging to him. HE sees just a performance of what other people desire. They like my facade. Therefore you see normal human behavior and he genuinely can appreciate those things, it just doesn’t touch him the way it does you. He believes he is nothing. He believes he is a shell of a person. Protective facade is in place to prevent people from finding out that they are empty. This is why they have to maintain it. They really aren’t empty, they just never learned how to fuel from inside. Internal self esteem. I personally think that it is connected to having such conditional love as a child coupled with severe trauma compounds the disassociation of feeling so much, that it destroys the link between feeling anything inside and recognizing that you are the traits you possess.
          You cannot grasp because you don’t think that way.
          You will get it as you continue to let HG educate you. He is the best source available to teach the subject. He is the highest level of narcissist and really is in all truth set apart in the work he is doing. It is rare to see them display such open dialogue. Thankfully you have found this site.

          1. Thank you ABB. Reading this makes me so sad.
            My narc: i’m nothing
            Me: but you are something, don’t you see that? Just because you don’t have every emotion, why do you think you’re nothing?
            My narc: i don’t know

            I think what you are saying Abb is that narcs have personality traits but cannot see them (due to their halted emotional development). Some personality traits are present and do manifest in them (without mimicking), but cannot be detected by them. Is this correct? Thank you.

          2. Ptsd,
            I don’t know if all narcs feel that their traits are genuine or not. I’m simply stating that with my dealings they have personality traits but see that personality as a construct to hide the emptiness inside. The personality is made up of pieces of others personalities. What is the correct response for a negative or positive reaction? Better figure that out. What is this person interested in, got to find out, then they will adore me and love the false construct because they don’t know inside I am really empty. That’s the big secret that must never come out. I am weak and insecure. Nobody can see that, therefore I act so self assured, dominate others and talk loud and with authority and see, everyone likes me therefore I am good, not bad, I’m approved of not disapproved.

            As far as your situation goes, I think HG should have probably answered all of your questions. It’s his house and he can talk with you about whether this is a pity play or what your Narc is saying. HG is the Narc Interpreter. Therefore I direct you to him. He is the great and powerful HG, he knows all. HG, I apologize in advance for already saying too much. Get the hook and pull me off stage. *dodging tomatos*

          3. ABB, thank you. You stated:
            “They really aren’t empty, they just never learned how to fuel from inside.”
            This statement makes it more clear to me.
            And yes, i will continue to be educated by HG. But i value a detailed, well thought out explanation backed up by real-life observation, which is originally based on knowledge from clinical interviews, data, and research. Thank you again.

      3. The Punisher says:

        AVS, there are 9 traits that determine BPD and if you carry at least 5 you would diagnosed.

  15. DFA says:

    HG may I come sit next to you and watch them fight over you? Newbies vs sister wives
    Loyalty to none and all
    In the end they all agree to participate with the narc wash

    1. Love says:

      Lol DFA you are hilarious! πŸ˜‚

      1. Darkness Falls Again says:

        lol I was just trying to sit by HG, I have a serious infatuation with Brilliant, mysterious, dangerous man with gorgeous blue eyes. Had absolutely nothing to do with what was going on around.
        He can enjoy the battle as I sit in totally mesmerized by him.

        And now to go tuck my codependency side back in

      2. Love says:

        DFA, his eyes are azure. Hence that is his favorite color.

        1. Darkness Falls Again says:

          I know Love, so are mine and it is a variation of blue. And he has already stated he has blue eyes.

        2. DFA says:

          I realized that after i hit sent, it is a gorgous color thou. I use to hate it cause i was made fun of theirs were brown. Then I saw a montana sky and loved it.

          1. You know HG, your comment about resenting having to chase the fuel but it being necessary to feed your false construct..

            That is all we really need to know to move on. That is the summary of the entire relationship, that meant this that and the other to us.
            That is all I meant to all of those people – food to be thrown away.
            It’s a reminder of how assumption and desire create all of these characters in our minds that don’t exist because they serve to comfort or validate us. Maybe this is why regular relationships break down also.

      3. Love says:

        DFA, I know what azure means. I was teasing because he has stated his favorite color is that.

      4. Love says:

        Urgh! Why are my comments always pushed to the end? I think you’re doing it on purpose! 😑

  16. HG do you think you can be a psychopath and a narcissist too?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Oh yes.

      1. Are you just saying that HG? If it’s true, where do you draw the line?
        My father for instance never sought attention or to dominate others. But he was playful and careless, “in his own world” as most would say and perhaps a low level psychopath. And my mother would sort of vacillate between sociopath and narcissist, being cool and logical and then absolutely sprinting for attention.
        My brother (likely) psychopath with narcissistic traits to entertain himself.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Perhaps I misunderstood, I though you were asking whether a person could be both psychopath and narcissist to which the answer is indeed yes. If you are directing that question at me personally, well the diagnosis was of narcissistic sociopath from the good doctors, but a recent conversation with another good doctor suggested psychopathic behaviours. Where do I draw the line? There is no line. If you draw it, I will cross it and then erase it and deny it ever existed.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            What psychopathic behaviors? Did Dr. O & Dr. E concur or dispute that? You have seemed to have a moral compass whether or not you choose to follow it. A psychopath operates with no grounding for right from wrong.
            I find that rather alarming…

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The ones which were discussed. They did not seem to pick up on them as psychopathic preferring to regard them as sociopathic. I agree with you comment but it is evident to me that there is considerable disagreement in the scientific community concerning sociopathy and psychopathy.

          3. Sii says:

            HG

            I understand psychopath to be more from the lesser dangerous type. Nothing good about them at all. Mostly raised from lower society.
            sociopath to be more controlled of their actions. Brighter, smarter there world would not allow them to be as reckless as a psychopath. The name given sociopath meaning there more socialized and very aware. Psychopath being clueless and knee jerking dangerous.
            Am I miss informed?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Hello SII, that accords with my general understanding. As Clarece also pointed out, I had also understood it to mean that a psychopath does not know the difference between right and wrong and a sociopath does but does not care. By that, I am a sociopath. Perhaps, with many things, it is of course on a spectrum and one can have some psychopathic traits and not be a psychopath. Should I gain further clarity about this I will naturally share. In the meanwhile, I have to put the postman’s head on a stick as he was late with a delivery.

          5. Sii says:

            HG
            LOL! I was taught by the greatest of them all….. it’s always the postmans fault. Now that I think of it, maybe postman are narcs. It’s never there fault either.
            You still keep great humor even during the worst time of year for you.

            Cheers!

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Well they keep saying they are going to deliver that present aren’t they?

          7. Sii says:

            I am so sorry your still waiting for mine from last year. The post office might be so bad you will be waiting another year. I will speak to the postmaster in town!

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Time to burn it down, they have had their chance.

          9. SII says:

            I totally agree burn it down. I will try Fed Ex next year. We shall see who is worse!!

          10. MLA - Clarece says:

            What was the first thought that popped into your head though, upon hearing this particular doctor could possibly label you a psychopath? Surprised? Did that alarm you on any kind of level? I would wish from the bottom of my heart, with all of this incredibly hard work you’ve put forth you wouldn’t also want to be remembered as psychopath who not only didn’t know right from wrong but could care less.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Hi Clarece, it was curiosity and also seeing an opportunity to garner more information which I could use to apply against the good doctors for the purposes of getting them to react by questioning their competence.

          12. Indy says:

            Hi Clarece,
            Here’s the trouble with the label psychopath, not all doctors agree that a psychopath necessarily does not know the difference between right and wrong. It is not a clear label diagnostically yet and it is not well differentiated between sociopath and the medical or psychological world yet ….
            As is the case with a very very high functioning psychopath compared to a very very high functioning sociopath. I.e. example in the movies Hannibal . He knew difference between right and wrong and still killed. What is his label? in this day and age they do not have a diagnostic label, thus the problem with labels and diagnoses. And this part of psychology it is best to describe people by their behaviors rather than their diagnoses as it lacks great clarification. This is also why it’s dangerous for somebody to go looking to find psychopaths (not saying you are MLA, just repeating for the blog) and sociopaths and greaters etc. There is a very fine line between each of them, all of them can be very intelligent. Professionals have a hard time distinguishing between the two when they are very high functioning

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Well put Indy, that is what I am witnessing as the various professionals grope around in the darkness of ignorance seeking to switch on the energy saving lightbulb of enlightenment (unfortunately for them I stole it)

          14. Indy says:

            Exactly HG, for psychologists that ascribe to the believes that enlightenment only leads to reduction of symptoms. Get a badass behaviorist in there, and all bets are off LOL

          15. Indy, clarece will know hannibal lecter very well. I remember HG named her clarece due to some reference to that movie! Otherwise, she was just ‘MLA’ before.

          16. Indy says:

            Really? I didn’t know that history of the name, MLA…haha

          17. HG Tudor says:

            Mla chose Clarece, I didn’t assign it.

          18. Indy says:

            Ok ok, that is what I thought…lol….don’t you love being the route of all things, HG πŸ˜‰

          19. HG Tudor says:

            Yup

          20. Oh ok! And a very lovely name she chose! It was in reference to you two discussing something and somehow ‘The Silence of the Lambs’ was brought up, correct?

          21. HG Tudor says:

            Along those lines yes

          22. Dear HG, Thank you for your contributions this year. I am reflecting on what I do want to leave behind in 2016 and if it had not been for your Q and A, I would be carrying many tangled stories into 2017 with a mission to correct myself, instead of seeing things for that they are.

            Although many explanations have made me vomit and howl with grief, it is a relief not to be confused anymore, and also to see the world more clearly without the fear anymore.

            We owe narcissists nothing.

            And on that note I just received a hoover this morning which I will ignore with glee.

          23. A psychopath!? 😱😱😱
            I don’t care though. My feelings are the same. πŸ’—

      2. Love says:

        You think you are a psychopath Mr. Tudor? You write with such passion. You need a score of 30 or above for a diagnosis of psychopathy on Hare PCL-R. Did your doctors test you?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello Love, no I do not but it arose in the context of a conversation I had with someone who works with them and is a good doctor. Some of the behaviours I engaged in resulted in the comment that they were psychopathic in nature but it was not a determination of psychopathy.

  17. Quensia says:

    <3 Good Bye <3

    1. Love says:

      Be safe Claudia. Don’t let the forum trigger you so easily. Read and enjoy and have fun. Feel better and have a great holiday.

      1. Z says:

        Thank you, Love <3

  18. Quensia says:

    Okay, I am Sorry everyone [M. Tudor & Hiding], Echo, and everybody else that I just performed a mental maze-craze. I really am sorry. I do need to leave, now, as I am in the middle of packing for a move to warmer climate. I really am sorry. My comments will be off because I’m getting too distracted. I am rather triggered right now. I am in the wrong. Please everybody, be well! Merry Christmas! xxx

  19. Quensia says:

    AH OH, I really must go for good this time. I am in the process of packing because I am moving, and this blog is just too triggering for me. Hiding can take my place πŸ™‚ I do hope she gives M. Tudor some easy fuel; the holidays are so busy and a bit of easy fuel might come in handy on these busy days! Be well, and take care of yourself. Hugsssss

  20. Ladies, I’ve sat too many times on your side of the table not to enjoy the irony of finding myself on this side of it.

    1. Love says:

      Welcome Hiding. There are no sides.

    2. Quensia says:

      I am sorry, Hiding…I really am πŸ™

  21. Indy says:

    Hi Claudia, I’m confused a little bit. Why all the name changes? Not judging, just curious.

    1. Quensia says:

      I already explained all this in previous comments, today. Thank you

  22. Davita says:

    I do not like it when Narcs quadangulate or quincangulate, but even worse when newbies think they can come on here and take over.

    1. echo says:

      Are y’all serious? Sometimes I genuinely can’t tell… Being cheeky is one thing, but we are supposed to be learning how to AVOID these situations, yes?
      But if you are serious, or role playing our something… Then…
      This is His blog, space, rules and harem of fuel. He controls who posts. If he wants a noob He’ll damn well get one. Have you not been reading?

      1. Quensia says:

        I hear an echo from somewhere far away, but I cannot detect what it is actually trying to say…

      2. Quensia says:

        This isn’t your blog, echo, either. If he allows my comments, then that is his choice. So, take your echoes elsewhere.

      3. Quensia says:

        My comments will be turned off from here on in, so I am not ignoring anyone…just have things to do [like leave].

      4. Love says:

        Lol Echo … We are a crazy family here. Lots of fights and tears and laughs and love. Do we go overboard sometimes? I know I do. But in the end, it is still all love.

      5. echo says:

        I know, Love. I was making a similar point that others have, just more harshly perhaps because it was more blunt and not wrapped in comforting words.

        And Quensia, I never said it was my blog. I know my place here (mostly πŸ˜‡ ). If you cannot detect what I’m trying to say, then that is what will help to keep you trapped in your own personal hell. I’m very sorry to say it like that. We all have our own personal hells here. (One of the names I use is echo for a reason.) I’ve seen the struggle you’ve had on here in prior postings. I didn’t realize it was you for all the name changes. I would have phrased it more gently. My apologies.

        I’m simply
        ~Questioning your sense of reality (by that I mean one’s sense of, not yours specifically), which narcs repeatedly mess with
        ~ Reminding us that this space is the reality of this particularly charming Master narcissist
        ~Reminding us that we (hopefully) are here to learn and apply that knowledge to the real world. To pay attention and not just get spiraled down into a more different rabbit hole.

        I think I can see how controlling the posts, and thus the reality, allowing your comments Quensia and mine, all ultimately lead to the entertainment of the puppet Master. And my comment flared up at least one or two, with the resulting fallout providing some extra bursts of fuel to the man Himself. πŸ”₯πŸ”₯ Yes?

        Does this please you, HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello Echo a well put comment there. As I repeatedly explain I do gain some fuel from the comments which are sent my way but it is far lower than that which I receive away from the blog and therefore whilst it is, of course, always welcome, I do not look for it nor rely on it and ensure I am fuelled from elsewhere. I prefer to provide understanding, read and gain further understanding myself.

  23. Quensia says:

    I know I’m gonna feel sorry later, so I will apologize right now, then. I’m sorry, Hiding. I’m sorry M. Tudor. I shall leave, now, as I do not appreciate new sisters coming in. The other ones are fine, but not new ones.

    1. AH OH says:

      No worries about them. He isn’t loyal to any of us but he is to all of us. He loves us all, fuel flowing at its finest.

      Pick your battles wisely. I like to win the war.

      1. Quensia says:

        Well said, AH OH…

      2. Indy says:

        Wise words, AhOh,
        Plus, I thought some ladies on here I wanted a true narcissistic sociopath experience! This is part of the charm LOL loyalty to none, save one, themselves. And HG is pretty good at teaching here, this could be a demo….or he’s a playa…or both πŸ˜‰ He’s gotta keep getting new blood. I respect that, he’s never kept that hidden. It’s the real world where the real shit hits the fan of “loyalty”…
        Women, we have each other ❀️

  24. Claudia Z. says:

    I know, Love! It’s like a polygamy of all of us sisters. It is indeed a bit painful- especially when we know they are taking it to personal email where we cannot even be a part of what is going on. One thing I cannot stand is being Left-Out. Ouch! I must find a new Narc to fantasize about soon… As there are many appliances, there are also many Narcs. I also am well able to give plenty of fuel in all areas of a Narc’s life. If he only tells me what he wants exactly, I am there. I must begin my search for a new love.

  25. SII says:

    This is really interesting to me. My mother made sure I never belonged to anyone. A sense of belonging to someone or loved by someone actually gives me anxiety. I grew up taking care of myself and learning to need no one. It’s difficult to comprehend someone wanting to feel like they belong. The idea of trusting someone so much to allow myself to belong to someone or be owned is truly a foreign concept for me. If I find someone that is moving forward to a relationship I will run and not be found. I have work to do in this area. I don’t see myself wanting to be owned per say. I am fiercely independent and the thought of someone taking that will build anger in me.

    1. Matilda says:

      This quote by Camus sums up, in my opinion, what it feels like: “Don’t walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don’t walk behind me, I may not lead. Walk beside me, just be my friend”. The same principle applies to relationships.

      It has always been glaringly obvious to me that someone who wants to exert dominance on another person has to have a very fragile ego, feeling threatened by any independence displayed by the other person. An emotionally healthy human being would not want a brainwashed by their side but someone who adds their own spice to the relationship. That’s what makes life interesting!

      I will go along with choices made by others that affect me *if I agree*… if that means that they have their little ‘win’, feeling powerful and good about themselves, so be it… I am generous enough to let them have that… if there is an attempt to be pushed into doing something I do not want to, I DON’T DO IT.

      Narcs are very persuasive, and subtly so, trying to manipulate you into thinking it was your own choice. This worked for a little while during the seduction phase. If he *thought* he had established ownership over me by then, just because I happily went along with his decisions by my own free will, then that was his problem not mine… and he was in for a surprise: I do not give in an inch, if I do not agree. πŸ™‚

      Much later, I realised that we are easy prey because we do not know ourselves well enough! Once we know who we are, and who we hope to invite into our lives, knowing what we do *not* want, it will be easier to muster the courage to trust again. πŸ™‚

  26. Does anybody else who spent a long time with narcissists struggle with travel far away from the “lair”? That is, the region you were bound to them ?
    I tend to only feel “home” when I am near those places but struggle in foreign environments, other countries, to feel settled and meet my needs. Almost as if my identity was bound in the territory of the machinations.

    1. MLA - Clarece says:

      Yes, somewhat. I believe that would tie in with them binding is to them and creating the everpresence.
      I don’t struggle so much in new places. I like the idea of a clean slate and new, happy memories attached to a place.
      But, strangely, my house that I lived in for 13 yrs, 9 of those with my husband and 4 years post separation and divorce, JN captures the majority of the memories when I pass by it still each day on the way to my daughter’s school to pick her up after work. He only filled up 2 yrs of my time in my house that I loved, and those feel the most potent.
      Obviously I have lots of happy memories there with my daughter, family and friends, but JN trumps my own ex-husband every time. How f*cked up is that? Lol

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        *binding us

        1. S11 I’m exactly like that. I wouldn’t reject the right selfless and honest person though. But I realise how I did not socialise with anyone for 20 years other than primarily her. That is so unhealthy for a grownup child. Fortunately I had books and hobbies which allowed some respite but it affected me to only choose narcs later in life and then of course realising and not having any friends at all. I wouldn’t know how. I’ve tried various hobbies but only found narcs, one recently stole my bank card when I looked away and I’m discouraged.

          The thing she did do was fearlessly cut others to protect us which I struggle to repeat for myself so don’t feel as protected. Then from her tantrums, trained me to have fierce anxiety if I stepped out of her regime. This powerful wiring remains.

          I think with a narc partner they give you the adventures/experiences you want that maybe you wouldn’t do yourself and this memory increases the hold.

    2. echo says:

      I don’t really. I don’t have any place I’d consider “home” nor do I feel particularly settled anywhere. I think when I was with them, whichever one at the time, the narc himself was my sense of stability and comfort, not the location. They were “home”.

    3. Love says:

      Yes AfricanViolet, as much as I have tried to move, I’ve never been able to distance myself from the ‘lair’. Travelling is great but I am never gone for more than a couple weeks. I long to just leave. A new life. A new me. No responsibilities. Dropping all my imaginary chains and starting over somewhere far far away.

      1. I think there are several factors that make it more intense.
        Minute detail control which arouses senses and increases attachment.
        Loud noise and stress
        Intense pleasure and happiness
        Decreasing confidence of victim to survive elsewhere

        I know now my cycle of arousal (high of happiness) followed by hitting either physically or emotionally, neglect, exploitation, micromanaging and projection. Three against one.

        I don’t know how I function to be honest.

        I never survived well outside of the environment. However the natural environment is too very pleasant and safe to be in so the juxtaposition is very confusing for me.

      2. I wish it all go away all the time too. So I could stop reacting to something I never wanted to experience.

    4. Windstorm says:

      I’ve spent my entire life with narcissists and I do feel an extreme attachment to the geographical area, climate and forests where I live. However, I never would have associated the uncomfortable feelings I have in other areas with any misery I suffered in my own home area. Rather than consider myself “bound in the territory of the machinations”, I would think it was more feeling love and comfort for the surroundings that I could always understand and depend on. We all need something we can depend on. Maybe if we grow up unable to depend on our homes and families, we turn to our larger environment?

      1. I think there is something in that, however my abusers had the double blow of being both the aggressors and the comforters. Sealing me into the cycle of turning to them for comfort in external adverse circumstances as they kind of act was unable to be followed. I never found support and so couldn’t survive elsewhere.

      2. Hi Windstorm, I’m very curious to hear from you after being so successful in moving on and going so far in your life away from narcissists. Why do you feel the need to read this website?
        The reason is if I have got to the point where I feel safe and successful again then I would never want to see or hear anything to do with narcissists again.
        Do you have unanswered questions or doubts about things?

        Just on this point about territory, I recently revisited my family lair. It shot through my body such feelings of terror and entrapment, and I realise the control inflicted has become part of my biology, to the point where as I was growing up all decisions were made in the context of that home and the family. I think many narcissists create this. I realise that I can feel this in my body – the limbs are often heavy and tense and I don’t feel “free” to have my own sensations yet. I have a sense of being chained to that house. I feel that the sensation palette I experienced growing up is hard to deviate from. To the point I feel like I am in that house but even if I’m away internationally or in a completely different environment. It is such a successful form of psychological abuse and so limiting on one’s personality. It may be why I chose th freedom of being a journalist, however I have never been able to shake the psychological and physical conditioning of my hostage upbringing.

  27. echo says:

    Well, when you put it that way…

  28. Indy says:

    My spirit as of late, “I live as I chose, or I will not live at all”
    The Cranberries

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UzOAno4Jl5E

  29. Snow White says:

    This was excellent HG!
    I read it over and over and I might need to do so again.
    This has me really thinking what was going on on my exes head.
    MINE was a topic through the relationship.
    She wanted my time, my constant attention, my sympathy, my special traits, my resources, my family, my body, and my soul.
    “I want you to be mine”
    “I want you to be all mine”
    “I am so glad that I can finally call you mine” was said the week before I left her.
    I heard these so many times and it was something I had never heard before. I did think something was wrong with her saying that but I ignored that feeling. I don’t think I wanted to be owned but I did like her possessive nature because it made me feel safe, special, and loved. I didn’t know it was a form of control.

    HG are you saying that owning someone is how you fill the void that you have?
    What are you winning?
    Who was the first appliance that you “owned”? How young were you when you felt that?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes.
      Winning the battle to remain in existence.
      My sister. I would not have realised it at the time but looking back it was her, around the age of 11.

      1. SII says:

        HG
        I am beginning to see a pattern here. I have often wondered how you picked up people’s actions at such a young age. I am compairing you and I because I think we had a close upbringing.
        Can you recall at what age you shut down warm fuzzy feelings? Every child is born to love. Your enforcement in your house shut your soul down. You lived in your head. You observed to survive. You have had to think your way through your upbringing and adulthood.
        There was a point in your life you said to yourself. My emotions cannot get in the way of any decision or thought I make?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello SII, that is essentially the nub of it yes. I saw the way power was wielded and wanted if for myself because I saw it as the only way to deal with what I was being subjected to. It was at the age of 9.

          1. Indy says:

            HG, The same age as the loss of your father, correct?
            If so, that would make sense.
            Do you or your doctors think that if you father had not died then, you may have been less narcissistic, because he would have acted as a buffer to the abuse(I know he did little, but still was a warm soul, based on your description)?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Hi Indy, no, my father’s death is quite recent (for those who have read Confessions of a Narcissist his funeral is addressed in part there). It was a different event altogether.
            My father has been there (albeit not there if you follow me) through my childhood (ha!) and my adult life.

          3. Indy says:

            Ohhhhh,
            Now that changes things.

            I see about your father. I am sorry. He didn’t protect you enough. Did he ever try to counter the abuse? acknowledge the abuse?

            So, then I need to read to find out what happened at 9. I am glad I asked!! Geeze, I feel silly now! Reformulating…and need to read the books..

          4. HG Tudor says:

            He tried initially but gave up. He felt, as I have mentioned, that I could deal with it myself. I think what he meant was he couldn’t handle defending me because of how my mother treated him, so I was abandoned by him.

          5. Indy says:

            Indeed, emotionally abandoned, at the very least. It is hard to hear, as I can imagine it. I had a different type emotional abandonment as a child in my early years, though I was never the target of a narcissist as a child. I am sorry for your inner child, and I know you have created a fortress that his huge. Understandably so. Now time to find out what rooms inside exist and whether the dragons are tamable.

            And thank you for clarifying.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            HG
            I saw the explanation here about your Father only after my post on Save the Children. I’ll read Confessions next. I’ll get to them all eventually to get the whole story.

          8. SII says:

            HG

            It was the age of 9 when you shut down any emotional feelings? This surprised me, as I thought you might have been much younger. I was 5.
            I am starting to gather information as to what age Narcs shut down emotionally.
            I want to see if there is any correlations with age of shut down and some kind of recovery of feelings.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            That was the guillotine moment. I realise now, from the discussions with the good doctors, that I had shut off many emotions some time before that with everybody else bar one person and I did so in order to protect myself. It was akin to moving through a large house and shutting some doors, bolting them and locking them and throwing the key away but some others remained open but bit by bit more and more became locked and sealed off. Then the guillotine moment came and that was the point of no return.

          10. Indy says:

            The guillotine moment. I can see you going through those halls, closing…I’m sorry. I know I didn’t do it, and I see that boy doing that and the look….

          11. MLA - Clarece says:

            The guillotine moment will be written about in one of your upcoming books I’m assuming, “Lost Boy” or “Creature” or “MatriNarc”?

          12. HG Tudor says:

            The first one Clarece.

          13. BTW your story regarding upbringing and closing doors HG gives some insight as to why I would keep trying to “save” boy narcs because I watched it happen to my brother. Thanks for sharing this as I had swung towards genetics.
            I do remember moments at the table of three of them staring at me as though I was completely foreign and I thought to myself “you’re all afraid and acting silly and I don’t know why”. I do remember a lot of violence and false accusations toward my brother.
            I didnt have the vocabulary but sensed a ransom on love and thorough belief in that reality and adaptive behaviour was normalised, although perhaps as a sometimes cherished girl that was a way out. It simply didn’t seem attractive to me to buy that story. It looked like hurt and that was foreign (until later like now when self esteem is so low I made bad choices) It is awful to watch and I don’t think it is out of an empath’s ego. It is a tragic waste of a human. It is a horrible theft of potential.

          14. SII says:

            HG
            You closed yourself off the exact way I did. I don’t have a moment of no return. Mine were to many each day so I don’t have a pivotal moment.
            I will tell you that it’s not impossible to tap those emotions. I have unlocked the door to those feelings. There foreign and or uncomfortable for me to feel. I tend to be able to only handle tiny doses before I close the door. I find myself knowing how to open up at will. I can control how much I want to feel. It’s scary but freeing. I can experience this only with my grown kids for now.

          15. HG,
            Do you think that people who exhibit personality disorders have the emotions but cannot identify them because they were not taught how? I really had trouble identifying the correct feeling to each emotion. For example, I would mistake being hurt as being angry.

            At age 3 was the first encounter with shutdown. Then at 9 empty. I remember feeling completely alone then. Like I was completely abandoned and on my own. Survival skills kicked in and became sociopathic. Two other definitive events happened but by then I was already gone.

            Do you think that because you locked them down they are there but underdeveloped? Kind of atrophied? I feared if I unlocked mine they would overflow so much I would be destroyed. Do you feel like that too?

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Hello ABB, I think that there is some force in that. I am learning that I either did not allow certain emotions to develop and I shut them down as I described yesterday and it also appears that others were simply not there. Whether that is because they too had not begun to develop or were just not there and never would be is something that is being discussed with the good doctors.

          17. SII says:

            HG

            Never would be there because they were not taught?
            I think you do no some of them from your grandmother.
            I would, guess there locket down. Lost in dissociation.
            How does that fit?

          18. HG Tudor says:

            I think that may apply to some or maybe they are so securely locked away I no longer even know where the room is, assuming I had a key.

          19. Sii says:

            I completely understand this. You will find the keys in your own time. Your to powerful to allow your guard down. The keys will be found in these blogs. Where you can be you. Finding the door the key belongs to will be a great journey. You don’t have to use the key just finding the door it belongs to is rewarding.

      2. Indy says:

        Awww, your sis. HG, Are you close with her? Does she show caring toward you still? Are there family members that have cut you off? Who are you closest to in your family?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No I am not close to her but she shows her unending desire to care to such a degree she even agreed that I should submit to the good doctors, how delightful of her.
          I have some cousins who will not speak to me. It is their loss and founded on lies.
          I am not close to any of them. Hamlet had the right idea.

          1. Indy says:

            Even your little bro? Not close? Hmmm. I am sorry you have not had this in your life. A close family.

            I will say this, having a family of love is like no other. Mine was never perfect. Ever. Was there abuse, sure. And….I miss the fleeting moments of heaven I have had when they were alive, where the smell of breads, the sounds of Christmas, the lights, the bells of the church across the street ringing majestically, and the muffling effect of the thick snow, blanketing our home. The smell of ice and the cold biting our noses and fingers. I miss these moments most of all.

            Yes, their loss….and yours to a degree too.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Indy.

          3. SII says:

            I am not close with any of my sibling. They have all been close themselves. I have found out why I am not. In the last few months my youngest sister admitted my mother pitted all of them against me. I was the one picket on by everyone. I dissociated from those times so I don’t remember them. I do carry that feeling of being alone all the time. When I brought this up with my doctors. I learned it was very common in a narc family to have one member that is targeted and talked about negatively behind your back. I also learned the one that goes through this and leaves the family, the family starts to fall apart. It sure did. My mother is very alone right now. Not one of my sibling visit her ever. So she is left to slowly and literally kill my father.

          4. S11 I was the target to. My values protected me from conforming and it was three against one. I became vague but can recall each and every excruciating moment. Particularly I started going through puberty my brother walked pasted and shoved me backwards for no reason. I landed on the base of my spine and couldn’t walk properly for three months. I screamed in agony and my mother walked past and said “don’t be a drama queen”. She later took me to a chiropractor I suppose in hindsight to get her appliance working.
            It was then my chronic fatigue and depression started, but I had no ally to help. My friends at school were all narcs. It was normalised. I learned to either fight or sit back. I hated them with all my might.

            I still think choice such as choosing Slytherin house is involved. My mother always could choose and she chose her path like an addict. They would all rather peck me to death than feel inferior. And after it was several times over, I’m still here πŸ™‚

          5. Indy says:

            I’m so sorry SII, that sounded extremely traumatizing.

            My ex’s family had a similar dynamic. My ex was the favorite youngest son who also was the one everyone had to take care of due to his constant issues with drink, e en though he was smart and capable of caring for himself. He was babied. His sister, a very high achieving woman, was referred to as the bitch by everyone. I never met her. That was how distant they all were. We were engaged for a year and I never met his only sister. I think she basically said, screw this family and left. I am pretty sure his mother is a narcissist (cold, controlling, into image and very nice things) and his father is a co defendant. That family was never close, n a healthy sense. All games. It was like god or higher power threw a bunch of pawn pieces into a bowl and said, “ok, let’s see if this mixture will work”. Then my ex, when he was married to his ex wife, must have done something to upset his step daughter as she never doomed to him and cut him out of her life basically as well. His biological daughter wanted a relationship and tried, but showed signs of being codependent. I was sad to leave her behind when I left my ex. But she was not my child and I couldn’t do anything. I tried while with her. God knows who is there for her. I hope her mother can protect her now.

          6. SII says:

            It was painful growing up. I came from a family of 6. My sibling and mother were relentless with me. My father looking on. That angered me. I now know he could not help me. He didn’t want what my mom would do to him.
            I remember some of it. Most is lost in dissociation. It was sever enough I can’t recall much of my childhood.
            When I heard the truth from my sister it was extremely painful and I was very glad to have a great doctor help me deal with what was coming up.

          7. Indy says:

            Hi SII, I am soooo glad you now finally have good support!!!! It must have been severe to dissociate. That’s a survival response to trauma, I’m glad you made it out and are healing now😊

      3. echo says:

        “Hamlet had the right idea.”

        If I remember right, back when i first came across this blog, you pointed out to me I was going down a very similar path. But you advised me against it.

  30. SII says:

    I could never be owned. The slightest thought a man wants that will make me run and burn the bridge I cross. My mom controlled me up until I reached 20. Once I got from under her thumb, no one will ever own me. Being an empath you would think I would be ok with such smothering. I am not and if I ever felt I was being tricked into such a relationship, I am not sure what would happen, but it would not be pleasant. I would be seriously lashing out at you, as if you were my mother for 20 years.
    Do women like feeling owned or are they just not aware?

    1. Love says:

      SII, I understand you. I have been controlled most of my life. I would NEVER allow a female to control me now. I do however want a male narc to ‘own’ me. But the reality is they really don’t. They may think they run and rule you but how can they when they are spread so thin between primaries, secondaries and tertiaries? Yes, tell me how to eat and what to wear and who to talk to. Lol but do it 24 hours a day – 7 days a week. Ownership takes a lot of dedication, time, and effort… Traits narcs are not known for. When they are off galavanting, who is controlling your every step or action? No one but you. I keep my imaginary chains tightly wrapped around my own neck.

      1. Indy says:

        I am curious, Love. Would you be happy in a non-narcissist relationship that has that “owning” dynamic in it sexually? Say, the S and M kind of combo? Now, I wonder, can that be possible…I think so…hmmm….HG, thoughts on if that combo is possible? I need to consult my sexuality book…dust, dust.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Can there be ownership in a sexual dynamic that is non-narcissistic? I would say yes.

          1. Indy says:

            Thanks, HG!

            Ok, Love!! Now, my question to you is, do you know if you could have that kind of relationship? The feeling of being “owned” sexually, without being owned in other ways?

          2. Indy Indy….
            SMH. Don’t you tell your partner during the act, “own it baby, own it”? Lol!

          3. Indy says:

            ABB, πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
            Actually, they say it to me 😈 Whaaa whaaaa πŸ™ƒ
            Muahhhh

          4. Claudia Z. says:

            I like!

      2. Love says:

        That’s a hard question. At first I’d say YES, I want to find the S to my M. But I think it is much deeper than that. The mental games are necessary in keeping me keen.

        1. Indy says:

          Hi Love,
          You mean even the gas lighting games? When to the extreme, it can be both infuriating and eventually scary. And when done for a long time, you can become numb and cloudy. I was told by my best friend that I was a shell of my former self, my spark GONE. I had a gray energy vibe, just worn out. I only went through that for a couple years (not even living together)…it did me in and I am a really strong woman. You can start thinking you are loosing your mind. That is rough stuff when done by a very intelligent man that knows your weak spots. (my ex was very bright and had some therapy under his belt to know some of the tools to use on me) I think it was worse than some of the threats I had in the past, because of the constant loss of footing, content invalidation of how I saw the world. It is really like being thrown in a spinning barrel and being asked to walk a balance beam after. I went to a psychiatrist for meds due to extreme anxiety. I went to an audiologist….to check my hearing. I finally had to get distance to work on the cognitive dissonance. My brain actually ACHED with him.

          Ok, Ok…if you seek this part of the relationship, we still love you Love…just in disbelief you would want to put yourself thorough it…its a lot of pain after that lovely seductive golden period that usually end by 1.5 yr mark. Mine (more like silver period, not very golden) was 3 months…then all hell broke loose.

      3. Love says:

        My golden periods have never been long. 2-3 months at the most. They weren’t very golden either. Like 10kt white gold.😝 Yes, I too was exhausted after each of my relationships and none lasted longer than 3 years.
        Gas lighting, crazy making, pathological lying… Oh yes, I’ve had a bouquet full.
        I have a non narc friend who has attempted many times to start a S&M relationship with me. I’ve tried but I get bored. What is missing is my mental addiction. I can’t take him or what he’s doing seriously if I’m not completely under his spell.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You need to see my Platinum Period.

        2. SII says:

          Love,
          Did you have a narc. Mother or father? Were you sexually abused as a child.
          I can answer yes to both. For the first 15 years of my marriage to a normal man. I would have to call my mother let her verbally abuse me. Hang up the phone in tears. My husband would always say I don’t understand why you call her. I actually needed the adrenaline it produced.
          I now know that a normal relationship was hard for me. I needed the verbal abuse to feel like I was living. I was dead in emotion to anything else. I was seeking what was normal the abusive love that my mother was great at dishing out. I spent the remaining 10 plus years trying to live in a normal relationship. I could not it was just to foreign.

      4. Love says:

        Mr. Tudor, I would LOVE ❀❀❀ to see your platinum period. Will you allow me to experience it?

        SII, thank you for sharing that. It is similar to drug/alcohol addiction. The tolerance level is much higher than normal. A normal relationship (like only one glass of wine) would have absolutely no effect. There must be more in order to awaken the emotions.

    2. AH OH says:

      SII I do not speak for anyone but myself. I do not want to be owned, so to speak, I like to feel like I belong to someone at times. It is all perspective.

      1. Matilda says:

        Yes, AH OH, a sense of belonging, I wanted to feel as well… stability and safety, too… no one has ever, nor will ever, own me.

  31. Adele says:

    So much truth to this. I look back and i see the beginnings of it all. He even said to me i want you addicted to me. At the time i just thought it was meant that he wanted us to be close. Back then i knew nothing about narcissism. I thought a narcissist was someone who was vain. I had no clue that the very person i had initially persued had been watching me a year prior. Then when we met he really studied me and let me do a lot of the talking. Hes an incredible listener and i can see why. They study people and build a world around you with that knowledge. They consume you emotionally and physically as a result. When hes sad im sad because i care about him. When hes angry i end up upset and fearful thru things hes done. When hes happy im happy bc i love to see him that way. Its consuming the constant array of emotions and never knowing what the day will bring. This keeps you from fully absorbing whats happening which is your sense of self slipping away. Ive never given myself to any person the way i have to him nor loved as much. Never sacrificed so much of myself. Once youre in it its very hard to get out and especially if you have issues yourself that made you suseptible to this type of relationship in the first place. Its been a learning journey and has had a lot of pain aong the way.

  32. Brandie says:

    Reblogged this on Speak Out 4 Others .

  33. Wooooow!!!! That is out of this Galaxy! I can not wait for the Creature book

  34. Windstorm says:

    Very powerful, and sad true – but I love to read these powerful, introspective self-reflections from you. I find them hopeful for your progress toward self-healing, HG.

  35. davita says:

    How can we not be hurt and angry? You have ice in your veins, whereas we have the warmth of love running through ours. We wish to warm you with our love; we wish to delight you, and to please you. Yet, you only wish to envelope us in your coldness, and then be done with us. Yet, we keep coming back as proof of our devotion to you, but you only push us ever away more aggressively πŸ™

  36. davita says:

    We prove to you over and over that we are attached to you in the most relentless way, but then you shake us off of you, like dirt, and leave.

  37. davita says:

    You want to own us, but then when you do so, you ignore, ghost, and discard us.

  38. Kat Huff says:

    Hello HG,

    Since you admittedly write that you are the one who gets plugged in to obtain fuel (energy) because you are empty and you need this life energy to exist, then why do you not call yourself the appliance? You are the appliance seeking an energy source (in your mind).
    You are describing yourself as an appliance, not your victims, but when you write you twist the words enough to take the title of appliance off of you. Have you ever considered that you are projecting yourself onto your victims in this regard?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Kat, indeed I am but not that I would ever admit this outside of here. I must be the one in control.

      1. AH OH says:

        Bravo HG Tudor. Nice to admit this even if it is here. This action humanizes you.

  39. Matilda says:

    The last sentence reveals the problem as well as the solution…

  40. MLA - Clarece says:

    A masterful piece H.G., indeed. Like your construct in which allows you to blend and exist, your written words to own someone make it sound seductive, alluring, scintillating and passionate. Who wouldn’t want to open up mind, heart and soul for that? But it is a blanket over insecurity, fear, fury and envy.
    I am still processing the conversations from the other day about your “scrapbook” tied in with your visual meme for Narcissistic Truth #89, “On Demand.”
    At this juncture, with so many people lined up in your past who have “failed” you, what can one possibly bring to the table that would be different or that you haven’t already experienced from another? When we ultimately just blend and lose our features to you over time.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Clarece. They can bring me the holy grail of fuel that I want and need. That is what they can do, the others were just pretenders.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        But even the holy grail of fuel will feel like strawberry ice cream over time, won’t it? Someone has to maintain 100% being in the moment with you on the day-to-day plan. No future talk means no future faking.

      2. AH OH says:

        holy grail? my cup runneth over.

  41. Love says:

    Yes yes yes! This is the reason I’m addicted to you and your kind. This is the reason I keep throwing myself into your fire.
    My eyes glazed, hypnotized, entranced. I need to be owned.
    You are a slave to your creature… I am a slave to my desire for you.

  42. More on that – could your insatiable appetite be fed?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Are you offering?!

      1. It is the holiday season… lol First I need an answer, would that be enough to fed your insatiable appetite?

      2. Love says:

        😒 It is never easy watching Mr. Tudor acquire new sisterwives

        1. AH OH says:

          No LOVE, she is not a sister wife. Do not ever think there is more than us. He will chew this up and spit her out so quickly. She will end in the pile with the rest of them.
          What is the offering that is a super power that she will bestow on HG or any Narc. Easy fuel? Pfft.
          Don’t worry Love, you are #1 and I will make sure. So will B_E.

      3. AH OH says:

        Sounds like she is offering. Lucky you. Easy fuel.

      4. Love says:

        Thank you Ah Oh. I do not wish for her to be chewed and spit out though. Maybe Mr. Tudor will be easy on her because of the 5 rules.

    2. Claudia Z. says:

      Not by you, B*tch… He is already being fed

      1. Claudia Z. says:

        Hiding, get lost.

      2. Love says:

        Claudia / Davita, be nice honey.

        1. Indy says:

          I second that notion, Love! Claudia, you are crossing the line. Hiding is a newbie just like we all were once. Plus levity here heals. We all flirt here.

        2. Quensia says:

          I will πŸ™ But, I must leave the blog, now, because I am busy packing and cannot steal time away for such drama. Be Well, Love! Hugsssss

      3. AH OH says:

        Claudia, you are fueling him. Good job!

        1. Z says:

          Thanks, AH OH! I am smiling all the while. I just love fueling him.

    3. Davita says:

      You can take my place, Hiding…do make sure you get a yoga swing, and have many other gifts to show, and bring to his bed.

      1. Davita says:

        Make sure you can lift weights, too, and I don’t mean with your arms… πŸ™‚

      2. AH OH says:

        Claudia, he is just flirting. Do not worry about it. He is in the UK and she is in the US. He is still yours and Loves.

        He can’t have anything more than this blog with us at any time due to his anonymity. When he tells all who he is then all bets off and none of us will be safe.

  43. Um, what if you found someone who did everything you wanted. Who allowed you to rule her life, who worshiped you and gave you all the supply you needed. Would it ever be good enough or would she be discarded to?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I shall let you know when it happens Hiding.

      1. Let me know if you want to take a chance…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I’m game.

          1. I like a challenge… it is on..

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Bring your game face!

          3. Yes sir! You may find it in you email inbox!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            How exciting! An early Christmas present.

          5. Claudia Z. says:

            Slut

          6. Claudia Z. says:

            Sleaze

          7. Quensia says:

            Oh, lovely…so secretive. You must be the Only One who has dear M. HG’s email address! Oh! You are The One, indeed.

          8. Davita says:

            :-p :-p :-p !!!

          9. Quensia says:

            Oh yes, and a challenge you will certainly be given.

    2. Quensia says:

      Oh, perhaps it will be YOU, Hiding! Yes, Yes, Yes! And, why not? You have that special “something” that none of us do. Ah, yes…. You will be The One. There shall be a wedding. Will you wear black? Yes, M. Tudor had finally found The One.

  44. Hypnotised says:

    I can’t catch my breath back…. scintillating hypnotising scary sad ….

  45. High Octane Fuel says:

    Wow, speechless after that one. Even took my breath away a little at the very end.

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