The Narcissistic Truths – No.130


113 thoughts on “The Narcissistic Truths – No.130

  1. Entertainment says:

    Narc Angel.,
    I have master their blank narc stare like, so apply that with silence. Lol, you know how frustrating that is. Lol

    1. Love says:

      I used to have staring competitions with my cats. They always won. No one can beat a cat. Not even a narc.

      1. Entertainment says:


        That’s funny. Thanks for making me smile on this dark gloomy day.😊

      2. Love says:

        Cheer up Buttercup. You never know what the future will hold.

  2. ‘We’ll see when the time comes’ – his favorite conditional statement. He adopted this because he realized that if we make plans in advance and he has to re-schedule, i would practically break down. So to avoid that in the future, he stopped planning in advance.

  3. 1jaded1 says:

    The difference between the terms shall and may in a contract, provided that the shall not be followed by if, unless, or another word that turns the sentence with shall into a conditional statement.

  4. Twilight Dreams says:

    Marriage one day he could have futured faked anything but that, yet if fear was what he desired that day, he got some serious fear that day. I loved him but at that moment in time, it was something that caused me to become frozen with fear.
    Now one day…..

  5. Matilda says:

    “We could be so happy together… please, don’t break this love”, I was told.

    It means: “I am losing control. This outrageous mutiny needs to be stopped now. I am the king here, and she is my subordinate, does she not know that?! I am going to apply a large dose of future faking, sprinkled with some fear of abandonment. This will keep her in check for a while and give me some time to figure out how to break this almighty stubbornness. God help me, this is getting exhausting!! If it does not work out, I will part with her, and make her think it was all her fault. In the future, I need to select more wisely!” πŸ˜€ πŸ˜€

    A cautionary tale for any narc, this should be. The fiery and bullheaded among us might be more attractive targets because the hunt requires more effort, which makes the victory all the more exquisite. But the delight at having secured her will be short-lived as the realisation sets in that one got more than one had bargained for. All that hard work of seduction for nothing!! Discard, back to square one, try again with a more compliant model. The narc’s plight is a heavy one, indeed! πŸ˜€

  6. Love says:

    I love Rooney! ⚽

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I don’t.

      1. Entertainment says:

        I apologize for the fuel comments, at first I was thrown off because all I have read is fuel is all a npd person want. My assumption is a person wants something they go and get it. Everything they do they do it for fuel. Thanks for clarifying, and correction as I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone. I am learning daily and am always looking for ways to and actions to be a repellent.
        My explanation is how I respond to the narcs in my life and their reactions. Most lessors or extremely reactive. There reactions are sporadic and emotional.
        They are passionate about maintaining their facade however, they are not centered, can not handle the unexpected, and reacts from unproductive stimulus provide by me.
        The way I respond to them determines how they will react. HG, I have not had the pleasure of tangling with a greater but from what I have learned and read thank God.

      2. Love says:

        Entertainment, why apologize? Your comments make perfect sense. I understand you.

        1. Entertainment says:

          Thank you HG,
          It was entertaining to read how the ladies compared the groups/cadres to different vehicles and oil/gasoline.

          Thanks to NarcAngel I will use diesel to kill my annoying weeds that keep growing. Hahaha

    2. Love says:

      He apologized for hurting Milner. At least I think he did.

      1. Entertainment says:

        Thanks Love,

        I am so happy to see that after dealing with npd person/people we still have a sense of humor and we are on the path to complete restoration ,and healing void of all narcs.

  7. Entertainment says:

    The loophole part I could be wrong in my opinion its when a set of rules and guidelines are in place to maintain continuity and fairness. Regular people (whatever that is) would follow the rules, processes, and guidelines. A narc know there are rules but look for ways to circumvent the process or ways to get out of the agreement/laws/rules. A good example Trump found a loophole in the IRS tax system and exploited it by not paying taxes for over 10 years.

    1. Love says:

      It must be good to be a narc. 😊

    2. AH OH says:

      Entertainment OMG! Trump again. You need to understand this TAX Law. It is a law for everyone to make use of. It is not a loophole.
      My then husband and I did not pay personal income taxes for three years due to a big loss. I would have rathered paid my taxes on the money that was lost. Because the money lost was much bigger than the tax break.

      Do you think he is the only one who uses this TAX LAW? You would not get investors to do anything if they didn’t have this LAW. What pisses people off is the ignorance of the law and how big money works. You want to change this law, then educate yourself on it and work to do it. But understand that he who has the gold makes the rules.

      Get the fuck over Trump! It is what it is.


      1. wompus says:

        Lol excellent response Ah Oh.

        1. AH OH says:

          hey wompus, where ya been?

  8. Sarabella says:

    “Chose to allow you to marry me.” how it is flipped. I said a few times to him how he flipped everything.. how did you twist that shit in your head? after being a horrid little monster, says I will give you the ultimate chance… whatever…. bye forever. It got so incredibly tedious all his psychological games. But when they started… devastating at first. He is an emotional and spiritual vampire.

  9. NarcAngel says:

    Would you please provide an example or two of conditional statements.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      “I think I might be falling in love” – not ‘I love you’
      “I could be very happy with you” – not ‘I am very happy with you’
      “If this continues I could marry you” – not ‘I want to marry you because…’

      There then may follow the condition. Sometimes it is left unsaid. It combines future faking with control, as in the third example, keep doing what you are doing and I might choose to allow you to marry me.

      1. Perfect examples HG- I think (indicates I am not sure, or mulling it over)
        I could (says it may be possible, but maybe not depending on how I feel at the time)
        If this continues (says uncertainty and places conditions to keep the magic going at all times regardless of what comes into play).

      2. Carroll says:

        Why am I unable to read any of the narcissistic truths articles??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because they are memes Carroll

      3. NarcAngel says:

        Appreciate the examples.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      4. Bruised says:

        or…. “If I decided……” future faking sad beggining. ..

  10. Never says:

    Nice Anna Belle! Ok guys, I’m getting my geek factor going…bear with me…I believe the term loophole was originally coined in 18th century England to describe slits in castle walls (also known as arrow slits) through which archers could defend the castle from approaching enemies while remaining protected behind the thick castle walls. While overall a relatively effective approach, a significant limitation of the loophole was limited field of vision – and the possibility of “enemies” breaching the castle walls unseen. So my question is: HG, have you ever found yourself “hung” by your own loophole as you shot arrows from the safety of the walls built around you? πŸ™‚ (I’m just picking at you a little-no harm intended)

    1. bananasareberries1 says:

      I actually have a problem in identifying on what this is about. So I am waiting for more comments so I get a meaning of that sentence.

  11. Entertainment says:

    Conditional or not. A narc changes his statements, comments, promises, ands words as it fits them. No loophole needed.
    HG, I have named my fuel level like the oil/ gasoline here in the states for the narcs I have to deal with.
    We have premium, mid grade, regular, and diesel. Narcs are so predictable, when I apply they gray rock (regular) the Imachine performs poorly exhibited signs of depression. I have witnessed this behavior in the lessor in contrast to premium. When I give the machine premium fuel such as adoration, praise, and assurance they perk up like they have had 5 shots of double black expresso. Although, I feel bad about using them as test dummies but, they perform like Pavlov dog. The mid in my life is a little more resistant and it would be hard to detect but thanks to you when he withdraws after I apply the regular,( grayrock) he disappears, when I give him mid grade fuel it’s confusing because he want to flee but since I am mixing it with premium fuel it takes sometime to make a decision if he wants to erupt or flee. I am not his primary, so I can praise one minute and the next tell him that I totally understand the primary behavior. Then, come back with the attaboy😊He will steer clear for a few days. Then return and try to put his feelers out. 😊😁Empowered. I determine what type of fuel I will give when I have no choice.

    1. bananasareberries1 says:

      I could not get that conditional statement part…I agree no loopholes needed. They lie, deny what they previously said and manipulate. I was looking at my narc thinking he is so messed up and I have never allowed him to control me. He wanted to control everything. So obsessed with me. He exploded once publicly in NYC on the street, when we were searching for a breakfast place (business trip) and I denied to eat outside of the hotel, as I did not like the place he picked up. Wow. He yelled ‘go to hell’. People start to stare. I turned back, I smiled and said ‘gotcha’. I have seen first time the true colors he was hiding from me, trying to charm me. He always tried to emphasize what a calm man he is while being ruthless to everyone around and using his title to intimidate others at work. I admit I provoked him multiple times as I have been suspecting he is a wolf in a sheep skin. His behaviours were inconsistents. He tried to be sweet to me and but was angry towards the rest. The event in NYC was one of many proves I got, that he is a very troubled man. Later, I received confirmations from his previous co-workers he was abusing his wife for years. I am so happy that guy is out of my life. He wanted to be obviously more than my friend but I kept a distance all that time. He hated me for that. I was a disobedient bitch.

    2. NarcAngel says:


      I love your fuel grading system. Makes sense to me as I’ve always thought there were varying grades of positive and negative in my delivery. Im sure they only recognize positive and negative but sometimes I know I’m holding back and they have a surprise coming. Now thats MY entertainment.

      1. Entertainment says:

        Narc Angel

        I had to come up with a way to deal with the ones in my life that I currently have to interact with. Fuel is what they want, fuel is what I give them. Regular is our lower grade of fuel, our vehicles don’t perform as well when we use it. Neither does the narcs in my life. I rarely give them mid grade or premium fuel unless I am testing HG theory regarding the different Cadre’s and classes. I have a somatic lessor and a lessor to mid. I give them the fuel while I am completely disconnected 😊 I don’t feel mental fatigue or cognitive dissonance like in past dealings with these kind.

    3. Love says:

      Great fuel system Entertainment! I wonder if the same rules should apply to narcs as cars. Economy cars (lessers) get regular. SUVs (mids) get plus. Luxury sport cars (greaters) get premium.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It doesn’t function like that.

        1. Entertainment says:

          It doesn’t matter the class of car although I do find myself giving the lessor more regular fuel😊 I alternate between mid grade and regular. Rarely do I give premium to the Narcs in my life. The only Narc that I will provide premium fuel to is Sir Tudor if he accepts it. If it was not fot him I wouldn’t have been able to compartmentalized the fuel levels. All praises to HG for the lives he’s changed and are changing. Most of us can laugh at our experiences with these people now. A big step for me considering was on the brink of suicide. Again, I want to thank HG for the tools he’s providing to help us heal and transition from victims to victory. I’m not where I need to be mentally but, I am not where I uses to be.😊

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome Entertainment.

      2. Love says:

        You don’t want premium, Mr. Tudor?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I didn’t write that, I wrote that the provision of fuel doesn’t function in that manner.

      3. Love says:

        Wow, Entertainment. I’m terribly sorry to hear about where you were before. Goes to show how resilient and strong everyone is here. May your life be wonderful and full of joy from now on ❀❀❀

      4. Love says:

        With all due respect Mr. Tudor, we are the ones doling out the fuel. Shouldn’t we know how it functions?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No because until you have been told what it is you have been doing you were oblivious. It is the effect on us that governs the function, thus it comes from us in terms of the gradation because of the way that the sources are organised by us in terms of their potency.

        2. Indy says:

          Hi Love,
          I have an example that may help show with they determine grade of fuel. Fuel =reward or reinforcement to them.

          Say you want to get a child to do something, the cookie you like doesn’t matter at all. It’s the cookie (fuel) the kid likes. similar in adulthood with gifts. If we give somebody else a gift we like we run the risk of the other person not liking it. What’s more impactful is giving somebody a gift that they want. They determine the draw or the value of the gift (fuel)

          Did I explain that well enough HG?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            In essence yes Indy, the potency is gauged by us (remember how negative fuel is more powerful than positive, whereas normal people would think positive would be better than negative) based on what we want.

          2. Indy says:

            Yep HG, I remember. It’s hard to come up with a good example of that that translates well…Let me try…**I throw hot cookies at you*** yelling “you will like these damned cookies you ungrateful monster” πŸͺπŸͺπŸͺ
            In a Joan Crawford voice.

            “I said NO metal clothes hangers!!!!!”

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Angry gesture – hurling the cookies
            Angry words – labelling me
            Angry expression – as doing the above won’t happen with a blank expression.

            Coming from say a primary source a triple whammy of angry negative fuel responses so a highly potent but low quantity dose of fuel.

          4. Indy says:

            Yes HG, that was my point, to give an example of negative fuel. So lol quantity huh? Do I have to throw cookies at you for an hour?

            Plus, I think you are giving me the cold shoulder…I sense it, I smell those cookies a mile away.

          5. NarcAngel says:


            Hey Spunky!
            Whats with all the cookie throwing?
            A) Its making me hungry
            B) Cookies cant hurt anybody
            C) Cookies is another word for sexual favors………..and you offered to throw them at HG for an hour and then claimed you could smell them on him (no doubt there).

            Girl you’re all around it in your language lol. Why dont you lose those fuzzy socks and just go out and get you some. Dont even ask his name and then never see him again.

            (Make sure when you reach down its dark and don’t yell: Move your thumb!!)

          6. Indy says:

            Hey NA!!
            No wonder I get into so much trouble!! I have a perverted mouth and had no clue πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚

            Those were hot cookies, with molten CHOCOLATE. It would hurt.

            I keep trying to put repellant on too. Lord. Face in hands.

          7. AH OH says:

            I like raw cookie dough and teeth marks.

          8. Indy says:

            You just gave a whole new meaning to food porn LMAO!!

          9. AH OH says:

            Just the facts Ma’am.

          10. Entertainment says:

            The trailer oven broke

          11. AH OH says:

            Entertainment Trailer oven? I missed the sentiment.

          12. bananasareberries1 says:

            HG- when it comes to delivering the fuel through email. My narc was a coward and he decided to communicate the most hurtful things via email and chat without talking to me. He seems to enjoy going into crazy communciaion cycles that I broke every time as I was always focused not on his crazy nonsense arguments but the facts and my perspective. Then he always went silent and ignored my responses like they never happened. Can a lesser get fueled properly via text and email? I would not think so?

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Assuming you were his primary source your fuel would be potent because of that. Assuming you responded in a fuelling manner he would gain both Thought Fuel from envisaging your response as he sent off his nasty missives and then Proximate Fuel from your replies. If this was bouncing back and forth frequently this would sustain a Lesser for the time he was engaging with you (especially if he had gained other fuel beforehand). But once the exchange stopped he would need fuel form elsewhere pretty quickly.

          14. bananasareberries1 says:

            I truly believe his primary source is his job not people. Everything comes next he is a worcoholoc spending almost all day at work …He is a celebral narcissts. He has almost zero time to do anything else. Since he spent with me 15 hours a day at work I most likely was his secondary source and important one. Anyway this is more complicated with celebral I guess.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            I understand your thinking but the job itself does not give the fuel but is a conduit. Given the time you spent together in the job you may well have been his primary source.

          16. bananasareberries1 says:

            Ok, that what I was suspecting. He was totally crashed when I left a job. I guess I have witnessed a chaos mode. I did not know why he is so panicked and “sad”(this is how I have seen it as neurotypical). Thank you again for your help.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          LOVE and HG

          Are you referring to someone who is aware of what they are dealing with as opposed to someone who is reacting in a situation but is unaware? As in : you know you are dealing with a Narc and he is goading you into a fight to extract negative fuel but you do not give him the whole enchilada? You give him some display of displeasure or upset but not the screaming sobbing full on experience and hold back? So in essence, are providing much less than you know you could give and he wants, as opposed to someone who is unaware and will just react naturally in the moment.
          And are you saying that whether or not I give you an annoyed remark with facial display as opposed to shouting a crying and stomping around slamming doors that it is considered the same quality fuel to you? Its all the same just positive or negative?

          The above of course being applied to Lesser, Mid, and Greater. I thought that the Lesser, and Mid could be pawned off with much less effort to provide the fuel they needed but I’d have to bring my A game for a Greater. But thats assuming again that I know what I am dealing with and manipulating which is not generally the case. Very interesting. Glad this came up as I read Fuel but still could see what you were both saying here. Back to the book I go………..

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No. The example you give concerns different levels of potency.
            Assuming you are a primary source:-
            1. An annoyed expression ranks high on the form of delivery.
            2. If you give me an annoyed expression AND shout names at me that is both angry gesture and angry words which are both high ranking in the form of delivery and combined is more potent than just an annoyed expression.
            3. If you are crying, that is a tearful gesture which is an even higher ranked form of delivery. Combined that wth you slamming doors – that is an angry gesture. Again two deliveries of highly potent fuel.

            Thus if your face creases in anger and you shout at me to “go fuck yourself” before walking away then that is angry words and angry gesture – an excellent potent delivery of fuel but in a short burst.
            If you keep following me around as I ignore you for an hour as you cry and plead with me – that is tearful gesture and tearful words – very potent indeed and you are delivering it in a considerable quantity as well.

            A Lesser, with lower energy levels and a less sophisticated ego construct to support will not need as much fuel as a Greater who has higher energy needs given his machinations and the much more elaborate ego construct.

            Thus assuming fuel levels were roughly moderate, the Lesser would feel reasonably satisfied as you shout and insult and march off. He compartmentalise the fuel and moves on to the next thing until the fuel need rises again. The Greater would want more from you in terms of reaction than just the shout and insult, thus he may well follow you outside and try to provoke a further reaction or if he gauged this would damage his facade (standing outside rowing in front of the neighbours) he might contact a secondary source and garner fuel from them through their admiring words in a telephone conversation which would be of moderate potency coming from say an inner circle friend.

            The distinction that has been misunderstood or misinterpreted appertains to the QUANTITY of fuel that is provided. Call me a name once with an angry expression or do it several times – it is of the same potency the difference is the QUANTITY of fuel provided. Thus if you refrain from providing the quantity the effect varies dependent on the school of narcissist you are dealing with. The book Fuel makes it clear as to the ranking of potency and also provides the worked examples showing how combined they stack up in terms of quantity.

          2. NarcAngel says:


            Ah. Potency , quantity, frequency. And I was not taking into account my ranking which is most important. Thank you for taking the time to provide those excellent examples and I am reviewing Fuel again (a definite benefit to have the books).

            In other news: Bit of a Narcfest on tv today. Alfie (Jude Law version) and The Talented Mr. Ripley. Funny how much more I’ve picked up on due to my education here. It seems there is no bottom to your talent pool-you even make movie watching more enjoyable.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome NA. Yes narcissistic portrayals in both movies (both with Rude Jude too).

      5. Love says:

        Yes Mr. Tudor. You taught me how my fuel is perceived and received by your kind. I thank you for that. However, a lesser cannot manipulate me to the level a mid can much less a greater, in order to receive the most potent amount of my fuel. Sure I will respond to a lesser’s uncontrolled rage – with regular fuel because it doesn’t take much. Yet to truly blow a gasket, I need a higher level narc. He has to wind me up so well and so tight that I explode with plus/premium fuel.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No. The potency of your fuel is determined by us by reference to your ranking as Proximity of Supply and the Method of Delivery.
          If a Lesser shouts at you as his intimate partner primary source and you cry, that is potent fuel to the Lesser.
          If a Greater whispers a threat into your ear as his intimate partner and you cry, that is potent fuel to the Greater.
          If a Lesser insults a waiter who responds with his own insult, that it less potent fuel because the waiter is a tertiary source.
          If a Greater is sarcastic to a waiter who responds with an insult, that is less potent because the waiter is a tertiary source.

          If a Lesser shouts at you as his intimate partner and you cry for five minutes and then leave and do not return until the next day, that is potent fuel in a reasonable quantity provided infrequently
          If a Greater threatens you as his intimate partner and you sob all night, that is equally potent fuel but in a larger quantity and provided frequently.

          The key factor with fuel is potency, determined by us, followed by quantity and frequency (which is governed by how long you choose to respond emotionally for with us of course seeking to increase the quantity and prolong the frequency).

      6. Entertainment says:

        Thanks Love,

        I am in a much better place now. I can only speak on what works for me and the responses I receive when I interact with the narcs in my life. If I respond with no emotions or one word responses (gray rock) I think is the term I have seen used. The lessor doesn’t like it he’s not getting the fuel he’s seeking. I control that part. If I pretend to buy in to his lies and b.s. completely different response. I control that, now how it works in his crazy ass mind I can’t tell you. But, the responses and behaviors are completely different. This may be another defense mechanism for me to protect my sanity. If I could do not contact on them I would. I do it with my mother as well and I get a few weeks of no contact from her.

      7. Love says:

        I understand what you’re saying Mr. Tudor. Narcs define potency, empaths determine frequency and quantity.

        NarcAngel, my scenarios are as a primary source. I always knew I was highly emotional and had greater reactions than a normal person. So I assume my potency would equate to high in narc definition. In the past, I didnt per se know I’m dealing with a narc. However I knew my lessers had a short fuse. So I did taper my reactions because I did not want an all out war. If I had a tantrum, that could provoke them into a violent rage. So I gave them only regular level fuel (I.e. compliments or pouts, frowns). I did this more to squash the tension.
        However, with my mids, I felt there was a mental battle. I could act out and throw a temper tantrum without fearing for my safety. So I gave them plus/premium fuel – anger, sobs, meltdowns.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Good to know that you do I wouldn’t want you to labour under a misapprehension.

      8. Love says:

        NarcAngel – if you are on a socio/psychopath movie binge today, I highly recommend watching Dexter from Season 1. He is my favorite psychopath! After Mr. Tudor’s incredible education, I am able to identify all the narc cadres as well as the empaths and codependents on the show. ❀❀❀

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I SHOULD go back and watch it. After I watched the first episode I told them at work that I watched this show with a fascinating premise and outlined it. I got stares and they said: you just said you love this guy and hes a serial killer and its not a comedy. You also said you liked Hannibal Lecter. I replied: yes I did say that and I still stand by it. One girl stared and said: he chewed someones face off. There was silence then until I offered: well…..yes…..that WAS unfortunate. Then they laughed and said: do you see a pattern here with your attraction? Is there something we should know? Laughter all around.

          If they only knew.

        2. 1jaded1 says:

          Love, Dexter is one of the best shows ever. Did you see the episode where his kid was in the kiddie bubble thing at the birthday party? So funny.

      9. Love says:

        Oh NarcAngel, I totally understand the fascination. They are incredibly interesting creatures. Unfortunately most normal people will not understand the draw. Hence why I never share anything personal with most people in my life. Even my family and friends don’t know about my interest and education in personality disorders. Well my family would actually use it against me, if they knew.

        1. NarcAngel says:


          Well I have to say I have always been fascinated by people outside of what society deems the norm, and I never considered myself “normal”, but I put StepN in his own category of things that should never breathe air. I did not know the word narcissist then but when I did learn it he fit the description that most people know that word as and I thought they were all the same. I thought they should all be destroyed and I would gladly volunteer if only I could find the person charged with that mission. But I also had disdain for those I considered weak because I considered my Mother to be that in not protecting us and putting her need to “fix” him over us. This was my introduction to “love” The ultimate betrayal. Over time of course I encountered others like him, but there were also what I termed the “sneaky” Narcs. Ones who did not tip their hand (mask) so quickly. And it was a long time before I realized in the “sneaky” category that there were some that I could actually admire in a twisted way. I saw that they were what most would consider dangerous but to me they were fascinating, intelligent, charming, and evolved (using StepN as the measure of evolved lol) and not just the violent thug I had encountered in him. That is why I am not mean to them when they first cross my path. I enjoy the golden period just as everyone else except that I know it will end. I am fascinated still by them and interact with them until they become abusive and of course thats inevitable. Then they are just the target for the hate I held for StepN and its game on. I choose to interact with them and do not consider myself a victim. Truth is I’m never more alive than when I’m involved with one, but I understand that I cannot change them and those who think they can are foolish. Once you know what you’re dealing with you’re in or you’re out in being with one. All in or no contact as recommended by our Greater host here. Excuses aside, I really do see it as that simple.

          Fascinating? You betcha.

      10. Love says:

        Indy and NarcAngel, lol!!!
        I dedicate this song to you 😁

        1. NarcAngel says:

          LOVE and INDY

          TY. Thats a great tune to warm up to. INDY download it to your phone in case you meet someone at the March that makes your fuzzy socks all static. Theres a line in it that says: Im hot just like an oven. Thats your cue to start throwing you cookies around.

          1. Indy says:

            Hi NA,

            Omg, I’m so not not cookie mode, but I will keep his tune cued up just in case I have an urge to make sugar cookies lol. And Darling Nikki by Prince. That song oooozes sex. πŸ˜‰

            Also, something to think about…. codependence is not a diagnosis officially, it is a descriptor of relationship tendencies. It was first used or coin does a term in the 12-step tradition with relationship to living with people with substance addiction’s. However now they know that other people can also show codependent tendencies or traits when involved in other unhealthy relationship dynamics. Another thing to remember is that you can have BPD and be codependent simultaneously. They are not mutually exclusive clinically. In fact they often overlap.

            Leaving for the DC camping road trip party march tomorrow night woo hoo!!!

            S’mores and apple pie shine around the fire. Yes, we know how to party! 😈

          2. Twilight Dreams says:


            I do hope you have lots of fun! You will be right up the road from me (2 1/2 hrs) lol I do hope it is not grey and cold thou for your trip.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            INDY THE MARCHER

            Camping??!! That is merely practising to be homeless. Is it not enough you will be wearing comfortable shoes and wielding a message on a stick?
            Teasing. Have a blast! Hoogs.

          4. Indy says:

            Hoogs 😊

      11. Love says:

        Jaded, no I’m on the season where Dexter’s wife just had the baby. I think she’s a codependent. I think his sister is the super empath.

        NarcAngel. You have such an interesting situation. Do you think your mom was a codependent? Do you know if your biological father might have been a narc too? I absolutely understand what you mean about being most alive when with a narc. Since I took an ‘oath of celibacy’ πŸ˜‚ from my narcs and distanced myself from the family, I am catatonic. I am no longer on an emotional rollercoaster and have peace … But I do miss my emotional fireworks shooting off at any given point in time. And I no longer have the need to run outside and scream my lungs out. Ah, those were the days 😁

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Well I didnt have any labels as a kid so I just thought she was Co-MATOSE and wished she’d wake up. He picked a gold mine in her. Given up at birth. Adopted. Adopted mother dies and husband says Im not raising her alone. Another couple adopts. They have other kids and she is treated differently. She says not mean but cold and strict. She looks for love in men and gets pregnant with me. Small town so shes kept in while pregnant and he gets another pregnant. Marries that one and their baby dies. He shows up where mother works and asks to see me. She says no and we leave town soon after when another guy comes thru town making promises and saying all the right things. Doesnt work out. Or the next….Then she meets StepN. In the Army (job), looks decent, very physically fit, accepting of single Mother with (now 2) children. Shes tired of running and he stays. He must love her if he stays right? And he’s half black so she understands being cast out right? They can help each other. Perfect storm. I honestly thought she was insane. I knew she was not retarded as other than him she displayed intelligence in other things. She is artistic, reads like a fiend, writes well and has good grammar (i didnt get that gene lol) and can do math in her head faster than you can use a calculator. But she was depressed and slept or was catatonic- like and would ask me as a teenager things like what she was doing wrong with him like I was the adult and she was the child. So what say you? Co-D or borderline?

      12. Love says:

        NarcAngel, I’m not an expert and have no clinical training but I have read that depression is quite prevalent amongst codependent personalities. Your mother doesn’t sound like a Bordeline. I’ve only known one Borderline and their behavior was extreme. Plus they were a raging alcoholic. I think people with BPD usually have an addiction of some kind.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Does bingo count. Once in a roomful of people I said I never saw much of my Mother as a child. They looked at me strange and my Mother said you’re being ridiculous- you did so. I replied: well I saw a lot of your ass while you were digging in the couch cushions for change that fell from his pockets. Everyone laughed but her. Shes still addicted to gambling but can only go to bingo as she doesnt drive and the casino is up the highway from here.

          I hate that you say your catatonic now. We need to get your volcano to erupt. Anything but apathy.

        2. Indy says:

          Hi Love and NA,
          I had to pop in as one of my specialty populations is BPD. I cannot diagnose online though I can give you a run down of what I see when I work with those with BPD and how they present.

          Think of those with BPD as having lots of differing presentations, like those with NPD. Some are high functioning and very intelligent and others are less so and still others are more hospitalized for multiple suicide attempts. It is truly a range of presentation. Some are doctors and lawyers and even therapists (yep, even psychologists) and some struggle to keep a job. Many fall in-between. I have known many individuals with full BPD, and the range is broad.

          Key factors are emotional dysregulation (often misdiagnosed as Bipolar, mood swings and highly reactive to other peoples moods), empty feeling inside, reduced sense of self identity, black/white thinking, can appear having it together one minute and the next, not, chaotic relationships and multiple wearing out of relationships, abandonment issues for sure and cannot be alone. Always needs someone. Often but not always, accompanied by self harming behaviors (cutting, burning, substance abuse, eating disorders, reckless sex without protection, money/spending issues). Sometimes mood disorders (depression) and anxiety also accompany it. Often, though not always, have sexual abuse histories and frequently have someone with NPD in their circle (family, lover, etc).

          Just my two cents as BPD is very complex and varied. It is a spectrum of severity based on a combination of factors including adaptive skills, cognitive abilities, support systems and symptom management.

          Does that help figure her out? It is often hard to know unless you see them. You know her well.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Pop in anytime where I’m concerned as I invite and respect your observations and opinions. That description about sums her up but then when I read the Co-d she fits that too, so I see the problem in diagnosing people. I’m in the same boat-don’t know my label (although I’m sure some on here have some choice ones for me lol and thats fine). Labels aside, through the discussions here I have learned quite a bit and continue to do so. For instance, although I hated StepNs mother, I saw her as a nasty old woman and not the uber Narc she was, and most likely the reason that StepN was the way he was, which of course doesnt excuse him but helps me to see him in a little different light. My mother would never leave even when we offered legal and financial help and a place to live, but she did leave when the last child could no longer take shielding her and moved out. Then he persuaded her (against our pleas) to move back into the house she left and he got an apartment. But of course he maintained that only HE owned the house and so walked in anytime he liked and stored things there (hoarder) despite her paying the bills. They continued this dance macabre until his death when she found that he left her nothing. The house was to be sold and monies distributed ( not to her), leaving her essentially homeless and penniless. When she went to a lawyer she was told that because she continued to maintain a relationship with him and did not divorce him and take half, that she had basically relinquished her rights and the will would stand. Good thing my sister (his biological child) was Executor and did not carry out his wishes as she had promised him. I bring that up because women may not see what a position they put themselves in by trying to maintain a relationship with them or work things out like she did. Her dedication to him did not fulfill her, fix him, or even net her any comfort in her old age. And it shattered her relationship with her children.

      13. Love says:

        Thank you Indy. Very interesting about BPD.
        I’m sorry about your mother NarcAngel. I have a histrionic in the family who had the same fate with her narc husband. He’s still alive but I promise he’ll demand to be buried with his money.

        Oh and NarcAngel, I am saving my volcano eruption for Mr. Tudor πŸ˜‰

        In the last year, I made too many scenes, broke down too often, and was quite the emotional sprinkler. It was exhausting.
        Of course, my loving family labeled me and said my outbursts meant I was full of rage. Um ya ok. It had nothing to do with them having high expectations of me while continuously belittling me. I was expected to give them the world while they steadily p!ssed on me.
        I was enduring their BS while taking on my last narc’s devaluation. After his discard, I finally snapped. It was a relief because I finally opened my eyes and said F*CK YOU ALL (well I didn’t say that out loud but I thought it).
        I told my family I have taken care of them my entire life. I put the roof over their head and pay the bills yet they are ungrateful and see me unworthy. So I moved away and did not give them my address. I still see them (though very infrequently) and unfortunately still pay the bills but at least I’m not spewing fire and boiling over every other day.

      14. Love says:

        πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚ NarcAngel: “hot like an oven” being the cue to start throwing cookies.

        Sorry to be crude but I liken my experience last year to a narc ‘gang fuel bang’. I can normally manage one narc poking me for fuel, but having a gang of them drilling from each location can be my undoing.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Well whoa it up babe. No need to become a Narc sprinkler!

    4. echo says:

      @Entertainment, you call grey rock equivalent to regular or economy fuel, but wouldn’t it be more like diesel? Since it’s so much harder to ignite? You can’t just throw a match on it. I think that could provide a good visualization in the moment if the narc is trying to provoke their target. Just imagine them throwing a match and it fizzles out uselessly.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        To be clear, if you implement grey rock you are providing no fuel (or at least trying to).

      2. Love says:

        Very true. Regular fuel = mild reaction / response. An example for me would be, a narc tells me his attractive coworker is flirting with him.
        Regular fuel : Of course honey. It is because you are so handsome.
        Plus fuel: (with hurtful eyes) Do you think she’s pretty?
        Premium fuel: (begin crying and screaming) You are cheating on me, aren’t you, you heartless bastard!? You were with her tonight! (Sniff his shirt deeply and cry louder). I’m going to find her number and ask her all about it. Don’t lie to me! I cannot take your lies anymore! (More sobbing ensues).

        1. NarcAngel says:


          Haha is that why the name? Because youre quite the little actress? Im teasing not serious. I have to say that because some people have trouble with my humour. I could picture the scene progressing as you wrote and I have used the same tactics, but I was not viewing it from the Narcs viewpoint as HG has explained (and isnt it ALWAYS about them lol?)

          1. Entertainment says:

            Narc Angel,
            Exactly, it’s like they are a clichΓ© to me now. They’re so predictable and it’s entertaining to watch them in action. I think to myself how could I have been so foolish not to see right through those simple mind cowards.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Haha. Did you say that with expression and animation?

      3. Entertainment says:


        I just learned something. I didn’t realize that diesel was harder to ignite. HG, using grey rock doesn’t result in negative fuel from the lessor? I can see the fury in his eyes, also he doesn’t contact me for a few months. Does he feel injured? If he feels he caused me to act this way, does that make him think he’s in control? I control how I interact with them so fuel or no fuel I am not fooled anymore.😊

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well the Lesser is likely to be furious as a consequence of using grey rock because it is starving him of fuel and amounts to a criticism. If he thinks he caused you to act in a certain way it hands control to him which of course is important to us.

      4. Love says:

        Was your comment for Entertainment? I ask cause it was right under mine.
        Lol Nope it isn’t always about narcs πŸ˜‰.
        I think we have much greater control of our reactions than they give us credit for. Yes, internally I’m a churning volcano. Yet for the most part I can regulate my responses and prevent a full eruption. I would be absolutely exhausted if I blew each time a narc goaded me for fuel.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We don’t expect you or need you to erupt each and every time we goad you.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I was just about to correct that when I got your post lol. Yes, it was your examples I mistook for Entertainments. Yes. I have tempered my responses also and I know what outcome I desire and my intention, but of course we know what we are dealing with and I did not take into account that because I am not the Primary and do not provide the frequency (and sometimes potency ) that they would view that differently as HG has explained. I agree that some of us do not get enough credit for our acting and manipulations (that is so ironic lol-credit from a Narc) but thats due to their magical thinking and the fact that they can never be wrong or lose. We know we’re awesome and have more effect sometimes than they would like to admit but I’m glad we have the Duke of Darkness to provide his world view so that I can hone my craft lol.

      5. Love says:

        Ah, good to know Mr. Tudor. No more labouring under more misapprehension 😁

        1. HG Tudor says:


      6. Love says:

        Yes NarcAngel. We are pretty damn AWESOME! And they can’t get enough of us. 😁
        My goal is to improve my craft as well and Mr. Tudor is instrumental in the process.
        After doing this for so long, there are some things I’ve gotten right and a lot I got wrong. He opened my eyes to my errors.

  12. A.R. says:

    How many of your kind find themselves in communities of bdsm, polyamory & swinging lifestyles?
    Seems like a predators paradise.
    Dominant/submissive relationships…Used as another disguise.
    And the conditional statements that sound like rules, are really a set up…
    Some days I wish I never heard your name.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello AR they are certainly hunting grounds for our kind. I could not provide any empirical evidence as to actual numbers but I agree with you.

      1. bananasareberries1 says:

        Knowing a bit about your kind HG, I would assume that the victim who submits to a narc valunteerly is not as ‘hot’ as the one who maintains the boundaries and then I’d manipulated and forced by your kind to do things (also sexualy) against her/his values and believes. So BDSM is for adults who consent valunteerly to take specific roles – not sure how that would be regarded by your kind.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It depends on the nature of the narcissist. Some of our kind prefer co-dependent individuals who are more pliable, whereas others prefer those who try to maintain boundaries so they require additional manipulation but the reward is worth applying more effort.

  13. If you keep looking for loopholes they eventually become a noose around your neck.

    1. Love says:

      Or you’ll become an attorney at law 😁

      1. Indy says:

        Noose indeed, ABB! I gave my ex the rope he needed at the end. It was the coffin nail of the relationship.

        Haha, Or we hire an attorney to untie those loops πŸ˜‚ Most attorneys speak narcissist.

      2. Love says:

        Lol yes Indy! They’re narc fluent πŸ˜‰

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