There once was a girlfriend of mine called Lesley. My preferred method of gathering fuel from her and also manipulating her was to call her It. This was extremely demeaning and in line with my worldview that people are just objects and appliances to do things for me. You may be an admiring appliance, you may be an accommodating appliance and run around for me. Alternatively you may be an enabling appliance providing me with what I want. A person is an appliance is an object. I was able to reinforce this especially with Lesley. I did not do it all the time. This would have diluted its effect. I would however be consistent in its application however. In some respects it was a half-way house to the Silent Treatment as I was not acknowledging her completely, I was belittling her but not quite ignoring her totally. The fact I was talking about her made her feel as if she had to respond and thus I got what I was looking for; a reaction.

I would start first thing inΒ the morning. As ever, I was awake first as I had had a refreshing night’s sleep, the sleep of the just. She had probably lay awake for a few hours after I turned my back on her when she wanted to make love. She knew better than to pester me though. As I lay on my elbow looking at her freckled face, she would blink into wakefulness. Her blue eyes would meet mine and I would see the hope surge in them as she knew I was looking at her.

“Ah,it is awake,” I wouldΒ  smile maintaining my gaze. The hope immediately became crushed and although she tried to hide it, I could see my blow had landed.

“Oh don’t do that please, it is horrible,” she would say pleasantly.

“It seems to have something to say. It always has,” I would remark. She would shake her head.

“Please, stop it, you know I don’t like it when you do that.”

“It wants us to stop. It always wants its own way.”

“No I don’t.”

“It is getting annoyed now. It is always loses its temper.”

“Pack it in.” She would rise from the bed and make for the shower. I would hover nearby and give a running commentary.

“It is washing itself using the shower gel we bought for it. It likes to smell nice.”

“It is washing its hair now. It is trying to wash the guilt away. It reeks of it.”

Lesley would try toΒ ignore the comments but I knew from her sighs and the slumping of the shoulders it was getting to her. Having subjected her to maybe fifteen minutes of commenting on what she was doing, I shifted the tack and began to use this technique in a more suggestive fashion.

“It ought to wear a pencil skirt and blouse today. It does not want to look too sloppy even if it is a Friday.”

Lesley would pick out the suggested outfit. I knew why she did it. She felt that by making this suggestion, even though I was still calling her it, it showed I was interested in her and she lapped it up. She completely missed that this was what I wanted her to do for me and was nothing to do with being interested in her.

“It really ought to cook breakfast as we must not go hungry.”

“It would do well to ensure the shopping is done before we return this evening.”

“It should remember we are going out tonight and it is not invited.”

She would depart for work, bristling but not wanting to escalate matters. My technique would continue through the day. I would telephone her and ask,

“Is it busy?”

“Yes I am, so now you are talking to me are you?”

“It wants to know if we are talking to it. Now we are not.” I would put the phone down.

By evening she would be pleading with me to stop it, tears welling in her eyes. Lesley had had enough of my objectification which was sustained and cutting through out the day. As I picked up my wallet in readiness to heading out with my friends, without her, I would turn and say,

“I am going out now. I will see you later.”

The smile that erupted across her face was immense as I had dropped the It commentary.

“Okay, have a good time,” she would answer pleasantly.

“I will. Bye Karen.”

I never looked over my shoulder but I knew how using the wrong name would hurt her.

Learn more about how the narcissist is manipulating you. Knowledge is power.





335 thoughts on “It

  1. EscapeArtista says:

    Wow HG- this is quite a thread. I think it is longer than one of your books. There are some special characters on here! As you said in one of the above : “From constructive robust people looking to learn and move forward, from very hurt and angry people, people who are confused, people who are borderlines, those who are narcissists but do not realise, those who have other conditions.” HG, please tell me which one am I?? 😁

  2. Amy S. says:

    My last question for today. Am I correct in thinking that a narcissist chooses their victim not only because they know that the victim will provide them with fuel, but also because the victim has some characteristic or did something that the narcissist despises.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The latter element is not always a consideration.

  3. Amy S. says:

    Ok, sorry HG for my earlier question about Lesley. I will purchase Elated and Eroded. No need to explain for the 50th time lol

    1. HG Tudor says:

      HG approves

  4. Amy S. says:

    So what happens to the girlfriends of the Greater Elite Narcs in the end? Do they leave? Do they end up in mental institutions, or stay and keep being punished until one of the two is dead, or what? How many sources of fuel, roughly, can one Elite narc have in his lifetime? I’m curious to know …

    1. HG Tudor says:

      All of them may happen. In terms of how many sources of fuel, then see the articles about Fuel Matrices.

  5. Victoria says:

    Hi HG,
    The “It” devaluation-are they only used only by the Greater’s? My UMRN would primarily use silent treatments-which were bad enough but I think I would have ignored him totally if he kept calling me “It”.
    Wasn’t there another occasion where you met her in a pub after having been broken up for some time and you brought her a gift and inside the box it was a CD saying “It”? I believe I read that in one of your books.

  6. indiglowsky says:

    **typo, Army**

  7. Twilight says:

    Leslie deserved it, yet has she put what she did to what you have done together?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I do not believe she has. Oh dear.

      1. Twilight says:

        Some may same karma was served

        1. indiglowsky says:

          Whose name is longer now? He he…. Twilight: Bringer of the Dawn and the Reminder of Revenge Unfinished. LOL.

          Speaking of which, I got to witness Karma in my life this past week, I felt so evil when I chuckled, but not TOO evil. Hehe.

          1. Twilight says:

            lol maybe I should drop by your little shop of spells and potions, we could trade recipes.

            Yes I do believe something has been in the air lately, karma is a bitch. Ok I will admit I did enjoy watching what went down a little to much!

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Are you referring to “watching something go down” as exchanges on here or a personal situation?

          3. Twilight says:

            NA it was personal, yet satisfying to watch him squirm. It dealt with my career, I had had enough BS and cheap talk.

          4. indiglowsky says:

            Yes!! Cooking isn’t my thing, I need help. But, not under the watchful eye of the Tude. He’s not into this Baking Empaths for a Cause, thing. Funny thing is, we just had a bakesale where I work to fundraise for the big Autism walk…gluten free baby!

            Karma, I wonder if there is a new moon or something. It was glorious and I totally didn’t expect to ever see it come back around. (Not related to exes of mine, though someone with greedy rather than kind intentions that fell through, love it).

          5. HG Tudor says:

            There was a Pink Moon recently. That would explain a lot.

          6. indiglowsky says:

            Well, apparently, this pink moon has a significant spiritual meaning. This is what I found:” it represents focusing on new and exciting things that could bloom up in your life this season. It pushes you to take an active role β€” focusing on that call to action and how that affects your current life circumstances.”


          7. HG Tudor says:

            Also apparently a Full Fish Moon.

          8. indiglowsky says:

            LOL, stop!! Get me googling during work! Also the Sprouting Grass Moon and the Egg Moon.
            I dub it the “Blood Spattered Moon”, from Karma killing it!

          9. indiglowsky says:

            (Realized I may have come off bitchy, just saying it playfully. Sorry if it offended. Now, back to work).

          10. HG Tudor says:

            No problem I didn’t see it as bitchy.

          11. Twilight says:

            That’s awesome Indy! And for a good cause.
            Cooking hmm one of the things I do love to do. Last time I cooked anything was at a housewarming party.
            lol the full moon seems to bring all kinds of changes with it

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Haha. Oh dear. Twilight should apply for title of Retroactive Revenge Reminder.

        1. Twilight says:

          Lol πŸ˜‚ NA

      3. 1jaded1 says:

        See…that was also in my thoughts. Why can’t she put 2 and 2 together?Is she that not smart? My conscience would have knocked me on my ass. I never would have made fun of Lennox so what the fck do I know? Nothing…to answer my rhetorical question.

        1. Twilight says:

          1jaded1 I would think most people who don’t make fun of other would put 2 and 2 together.
          I suspect this is part of her personality and it wasn’t the first time she had made fun of another so it wouldn’t be something she would remember and have an Oh I remember I made fun of HGs brother and his reaction to me and now HG is putting me through hell moment.

  8. NarcAngel says:

    Oh fitness couch was funny enough but then you said HG was couching you (similar to bedding you) and that was funnier. But dont you worry-he’ll lay his healing hands upon you tame your fever lol. Maybe just with his voice.

    1. superxena says:


      You noticed it😱This is hilarious πŸ˜‚ Think ,what a short word as “fever” and a “slight ” switch of vowels can cause! The latter,I blame it on…well my fever😬
      You made me laugh really! I needed some laugh…in all this madness.
      And …yes ..he always does!! Please no more interpretations!
      I better stop explaining myself …there is a big risk of making it worse or perhaps better?πŸ˜‰

  9. Natalie says:

    I found the best way to combat this type of treatment was to name call back. My ex made the mistake of telling me his insecurities for sympathy (mid-ranger) so this if this scenario were revered it would have been my chance to wound him. I think he secretly loved being insulted and my threatening physical violence (twisted guy).

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It’s called fuel.

      1. Natalie says:

        Indeed. I have been binge reading the other books over the last few days and come accross the one that explains the Fuel Matrix. Apparently my facilitation between adoration and anger was the narc jackpot lol! It is really empowering to finally understand what took place.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am pleased to see that that is the case Natalie. Thank you for reading.

  10. superxena says:

    Typo * Fitness Coach* of course.I better correct it before NarcAngel notices it😱

  11. 1jaded1 says:

    Lesley can sit and spin.

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Love says:

        Wow. She can do that? Talented girl. Now I’m getting a clearer picture. She’s a hot young thang… And what better way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. She’s being schooled Tudor style.

      2. 1jaded1 says:

        I’m serious. She can sit on a tack and spin. People who make malicious fun of others are despicable. My punishment for that would have the fun poker experience the same issue as the person they were making fun about.

      3. Love says:

        Oh you meant a tack. Lol I was thinking of something else. πŸ˜‰

        1. 1jaded1 says:

          Haha. I really meant something else but was trying to be polite-ish.

    2. E. B. says:

      Hi 1jaded1,
      Good to read that you and other people here do not approve of humiliating someone in public, especially when people cannot defend themselves for different reasons. I have been dealing with it since I moved abroad. We are speaking of people over 40. If they did the same to me in the country where I come from, other people watching would get angry and would help.

      Being humiliated in public is worse than experiencing it behind closed doors. Lesley will get over it but Lennox will never forget what happened to him.

      1. 1jaded1 says:

        If HG has anything to do with it, it sounds like Lesley will never get over what she did. She’d be begging for my brand of justice. For 24 hrs she would be subjected to being treated how she treated Lennox. It would burn in her memory forever.

        I’m sorry you are also dealing with it. The rude people who treat you like that are over 40? Insensitivity has no age limit and I hope those people bite their tongues as they speak ill toward you. I’m inviting bad karma by wishing it but this is a hot topic for me.

        1. E. B. says:

          Thank you so much for your kind words, Jaded. When I first read what Lesley did to Lennox, I became very angry. I hope she experiences what it is like to be humiliated with other people watching and not being able to do anything about it.
          Yes and at least four of them are over 60. They must be sadistic to enjoy watching someone being lashed out and humiliated by a *mob*. Adult bullying exists. HG wrote in one of his books that he does not do attrition and other things beneath him and that he has a reason for doing something. Before I learnt about this blog and books, I felt helpless, weak and exhausted. I am following all the advice he gave me for free on this blog (what to do and which books to read – I still do not have a pay pal account) and since then my anxiety and other symptoms have decreased.

    3. KDB says:


      I tried not to laugh but it really did hurt to read about Lennox honestly. So your joke here, reminded me of something similar that happened to a sibling of mine when I was young. Sit and spin, haven’t heard that insult in years.

      My approach wouldn’t have been like HG here, I don’t have the heart to do that. I tend to call people out right away if I see something like that happen. I’m not perfect, we are all flawed, but she was just downright cruel. :-/

      1. 1jaded1 says:

        Lol. Sit and spin. I am old. I am far from perfect. I won’t make fun of another person’s disability. So wrong.

  12. 12345 says:

    I read Elated and Eroded last night. HG, so proud of you for avenging your brother. I’m so saddened to read how mercilessly she shamed him. I do also feel sorry for her though…I’d be willing to guess she had no clue of the shit storm of retribution coming her way when you ensnared her.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for reading and no she did not. It is not over yet either.

  13. indiglowsky says:

    Hi HG,
    I am left with a question after reading more about It girl, how long did you seduce and engage with her? If it is in the book, I will look back. If in another book to come, just let me know. I’m impressed with you dedication and time you put in to this revenge (oddly enough given I’m more empathic). I’m pretty sure I would go for quicker revenge, perhaps give her a dressing down in public, a shame fest or something but this, wow.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am not done with her yet.

      1. indiglowsky says:

        Ah of course. They never end. So let me specify my question: how long were you in a formal relationship with her?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          About six months.

      2. Jenna says:

        You’re not done with her yet? Woohoo!!! πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸŽ‰πŸŽ‰πŸŽ‰
        (I absolutely despise her).

    2. NarcAngel says:

      But what better than to exact revenge and honor his brother while obtaining steady supply of fuel. No waste. Impressive efficiency actually.

      1. indiglowsky says:

        It is utterly impressive and involved beyond my abilities. My revenge would be short and far less involved. I need to conserve my energy for other things and thus I let go. I am not a narcissist or anywhere near a sociopath. And, the intent is noble. Like Robin Hood in a sense. Now I wonder, was he a narcissist. Damn it, probably was. Hehe

  14. superxena says:

    HG the way: is my Case Study gone? I have not “seen” her around here lately???

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. superxena says:

        No more “Case study” for me??? Is that good or bad? Was she expelled for not following the 5 rules or did she quit ? By the way I am having a “relapse” now..I really need your help..This has been affecting me “physically” now..for the first time in 15 months…has going on for too long …too much to endure…making notes for you!!!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Noted, we can discuss in our scheduled consultation.

          1. superxena says:

            Thank you HG…have had ” unexplained fever” for the past five days…not used to it..not good!!! Making notes,notes ! looking forward to our next consultation..!

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Oh dear. There are consultations for the fevered? Are those extra HG?

          3. superxena says:

            Hello NarcAngel! Funny commentπŸ˜€ Let us put it this way: If it sounds better: Consultations ARE NOT cancelled due to fever! Such are HG’ s healing powers!!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Huh? I have no idea what that means but enjoy your “consultation”.

            What if you dont have a fever but are just sweaty? How much for that session? Clothing optional? Im so confused.

          5. superxena says:

            Ha.ha NarcAngel…do not worry…it is just …a consultation…

          6. superxena says:

   many bloggers do we have here HG? Well now they know that Superxena has fever.( narc fever?)..πŸ˜‰πŸ˜±

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Indeed. Just not all of us were aware Jungle Boogie was available via consultation. But it’ll be our secret……

            Ya ya Tudor-on my way to the naughty step (dont forget the Listerine)

          8. superxena says:

   really make me laugh do have a refined great sense of humour..πŸ‘ŒπŸ»πŸ˜€

          9. MLA - Clarece says:

            OMG NA and Super! I think “consults” to have HG give a very personal, tailor-made reading of “Hush” would fall under a different category… and a different pricing tier.
            NA, every time you make a comment about Listerine I about drop my phone no matter what. I never see it coming. πŸ˜ƒ

          10. superxena says:

            Hello MLA-CLARECE!

            Hush is not an option for me….
            I would prefer Beethoven’s piano sonata no.14 ( Moonlight) to be played for me πŸ˜‰ THAT would absolutely help…πŸ˜€

          11. MLA - Clarece says:

            Agreed! HG has magic fingers!
            How long did you take piano HG? I remember you said once your father played Trombone. Did he encourage you and your siblings to try a musical instrument? Or was it part of your school’s curriculum?

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Do you man how long did I have lessons for? Around 5 years.
            Yes he did.

          13. NarcAngel says:

            I thought the piano was so beautiful in both sight and sound as a child. Wished I could learn to play, but that was not even a remote possibility. Sigh. But I was determined not to let that prevent me from mastering an instrument and so later on I became proficient at the skin flute.
            Never let your dreams hold you back.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Easiest instrument to get a sound from, hardest to play.

          15. MLA - Clarece says:

            Was piano a positive outlet for you? Or did MatriNarc make it stressful, especially around recital time?

          16. HG Tudor says:

            I hated playing and practising.

          17. MLA - Clarece says:

            Oh, ok. I won’t put in a request on behalf of all the ladies for you to throw in a YouTube recording of you playing the piano then. Ya know, just to mix it up a bit…

          18. Jenna says:

            HG playing the piano on youtube. Yes please!!! 😊😊😊

          19. indiglowsky says:

            But, does he sing? πŸ˜‰

          20. superxena says:

            I am sure he does πŸ˜‰

          21. 1jaded1 says:

            In a baritone.

          22. indiglowsky says:

            I’m sure that is true. My grandfather was a Tenor though my father was a Baritone (Think Barry White’s voice meets Amy Drill Sergeant). I scared all the boys hehe.

          23. indiglowsky says:

            Speaking of Sit N Spin, Jaded1, did you have one of them as a toy like I did? Got myself sick and kept hopping back on again. Hmmmm, sounds like a past relationship…but, I digress.

          24. 1jaded1 says:

            Haha Indy. I didn’t. My parents called it a junk toy. So I did the next best thing. I spun around on the grass until I fell down. That didn’t make them happy eitber.

          25. Jenna says:

            Indy, playing the piano and singing lol… that is amusing!!

          26. Jenna says:

            … telling his narc stories through the melody of song πŸ˜‚

      2. Love says:

        Wait, these consultations cover physiological issues??? Why didn’t you say so! I’ve only been talking about my sleep problems for a couple weeks now. Maybe talking to you will help?

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Entertainment says she listens to Hush to help her sleep. I dont think thats the intended effect but hey, whatever works.

        2. indiglowsky says:

          Ask him if he does food intolerances 🀣

          “Patty cake, patty cake”

    2. indiglowsky says:

      Pesky lab rats always escaping. πŸ˜‰ Don’t worry, I’m sure HG will have many more for us! All this cheese (us) has to draw moreπŸ˜‚

      What color did you do your nails in, sweety 😊 I’m thinking barely there pink, like OPI bubble bath (ok ok, I know, HG. It’s not a nail salon either lol)

      1. superxena says:

        Ha,haπŸ˜€You made me laugh..HG for sure is giving us more of that..Curious that you felt as well a ” taste” of fuel…I felt kind of ” naughty,naughty” girl😱 All in the name of knowledge.. Empaths minus one narc? 1-0.. I am getting crazy not being able to work due to this ” strange” narc fever😑
        By the way my nail polish is actually OPI! color:” Got myself into a Jam-balaya”. I am serious..that is the name of my nail polish ..not kidding!! Made me laugh…how convenient name ..considering the situation I am going through now..Nice color though!!

    3. abrokenwing says:

      Haha ! πŸ’…πŸ»βŒβŒβŒ

      1. superxena says:

        This blog is really therapeutical!!

    4. abrokenwing says:

      @Love I think Mr Tudor is too entertaining to make anyone fall asleep πŸ˜‰

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I concur. Not always wise to be asleep near me either.

      2. Love says:

        So you’re saying you can’t help me, Mr. Tudor? 😳

  15. superxena says:

    ..I meant ” these discussions”… Sorry for that!

  16. abrokenwing says:

    He made this clear he wants us to read the book in order to find the answer. Why can’t some people respect it..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you ABW, it really is that simple. If you read the book you get more detail on it. If you do not want to read it, fine, you do not have to.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Yes I understand Sheldon. You of course are using logic and reason but that can still be infuriating. Bernadette is feisty. You like that lol.

      2. superxena says:

        All this discussions made me EXTREMELY CURIOUS about the I actually HAD to order it in order to satisfy my curiosity…that it is not fair…πŸ˜‰

  17. MLA - Clarece says:

    H.G., have you expanded and written more on what happened with Karen in one of your books? Or will that happen in Asylum of the Grotesque?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      In the Asylum, Clarece.

      1. karen1303 says:

        May I ask- do all the books detail excerpts from your life HG? And then, I assume, the reasons why you acted as you did from a Narcs prespective?
        Also, which would be the best book to start with? Given that I’ve escaped already.
        Many thanks

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The majority do Karen yes. You are best starting with the Confessions series and then Delinquent Mind, Treasured and Tormented and then following the alliterative titles all the way through from Adored and Abhorred.

          1. karen1303 says:

            Great. Thanks HG. I intend to make my way through them all.
            It’ll also feel good to give something back to you for all you have done for myself and others.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Karen.

    2. Jenna says:

      Hi clarece, just wanted to re-introduce myself. I am the former ‘ptsdafternarcabuse’, now ‘jenna’, since i don’t suffer frm ptsd any longer thanks to HG.

      Are you still in touch with JN? How is that going? If i’m being too intrusive, you need not reply. Hope you’re having a great day!

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        Hi Jenna!
        Of course I remember you and it’s very thoughtful of you to reach out.
        JN had been in contact for about 3 months starting around the holidays. I carefully gave out positive fuel and withheld negative fuel even though he was doing his typical patterns of dangling visits and then cancelling out. He even threw in an emergency room visit to get out of seeing me on a day he invited me up to Chicago to meet and “clear the air”. It was with a case of “vertigo.” The pathological lying was staggering. I never lost my cool. Finally though, an exchange happened after him breaking my request of NC after a two week period by drunk texting me in the middle of the night saying he did want to see me. I finally doled out some well-deserved negative fuel and I also saved an email from a third party calling him out on exactly what he was doing to me with it centering around his control only. I know that wounded him. It attacked his superiority pillar. He hates if he thinks anyone else is on to what he would do to me. The next day he texted for me to leave him alone. I replied, “alone you shall be.” Been quiet for a week 1/2.
        He never looked more unattractive to me by his own doing after that last exchange.
        That’s the nut and bolts. How are you?

        1. Jenna says:

          Clarece, “… dangling visits and then cancelling out.” That sounds familiar in my past situation too. Although my ex would re-schedule and keep that promise after i had a talk with him that it hurts me otherwise. Wants to see you, then says ‘leave me alone.’ My ex told me to leave him alone after we ‘broke up’ but then changed his mind after a few days. Back and forth they go with their intentions for meeting lol. It no longer bothers me when i reflect, since i now know he’s a narc.
          My ex moved, so now we don’t meet, but every wk or every 2 wks, he texts me to ask abt my well being. I ask about his as well. It is a pleasant exchange. Last text, he asked if we can forget about the past and if i’d like to be his friend lol. I’m surprised i take it so easy now. All thanks to HG, his books, and interacting with you lovely pple on this blog.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Interesting. We always said our Narcs were cut from the same cloth. That is probably exactly what JN would enjoy now. Pleasant exchanges and check-ins every week or other week.
            Nope! Not happening on my watch. I would just perpetually hope that one day he will still want to see me. Plus he would never stop at just friendly chit-chat. It would get a flirty, sexual undertone at some point which would send mixed signals and confuse me.
            Better yet, he finally gets a girlfriend then uses our new-found “friendship” to triangulate and make her jealous. F*ck that!

          2. Jenna says:

            Clarece, the sexual undertones would definitely give mixed signals! Lol!
            My ex and i do not have sexual undertones any longer. Once in awhile i flirt with him (txt only), like asking him if he’s shirtless, but he quickly reminds me not to. This means he no longer reflects it, which is definitely progress for him narcissistically. It makes me happy that he is progressing.
            Just curious, and in no way questioning your preferences, why do you prefer to meet JN rather than txt once in a while as friends? I could not handle meeting my ex in fear that things would escalate to intimacy. Plus, he is back to his religious self, which means he has no ipps and is not engaging in pre-marital sex any longer. So that makes me his closest friend with whom he shares personal things he hasn’t shared with anyone, like his childhood abuse.
            Meeting him and risking intimacy would put me back to square one, which would reverse my progress.
            Again, i’m not at all questioning your preference. Everybody’s dynamic is different and i am curious about yours in particular since our narcs seem similar. Maybe twin brothers lol!

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi Jenna! I know I’m in the minority on this but I’m pretty conservative and old school in that I don’t believe guys and girls can maintain a friendship over the long haul without one getting more interested for something more and ultimately someone getting hurt. Because I married so young (to my first boyfriend) and stayed married for 15 years until things went south, I always kept pretty high boundaries with the opposite sex. I was friendly with male co-workers for example but always kept some distance. Even now being single, I don’t have guy friends that I just text or hang out with. I have my girlfriends and family for that.
            That being said with JN any communication with him ALWAYS leads to sexual undertones. ALWAYS. He has never supported me as a friend. He has nothing to offer me as a friend. And he is too cowardly to face me in person. He has proven it time and time again. All these endless apologies and then he repeats the same patterns. Then we’re supposed to just call a truce and be friends on his whim? Just no. Not with him, not ever. lol
            You mention you may get flirty with yours in texting and he puts the kabosh on it. You don’t think he’s getting fuel getting to exert control over you by doing that? How do you know he isn’t “friends” with 10 other girls and just sexting with select ones without engaging in full-on pre-marital sex? I think that’s fuel for him getting to gently reject your flirtations. Just a different perspective.

          4. Love says:

            I agree Clarece. I’ve never had a platonic relationship with a guy. If the guy pretends to be a simple friend, after a couple drops of alcohol, his intentions always come to light.
            Even sober, they give little hints here and there. ‘Lets take a trip together.’ ‘Come over, lets drink wine and watch a movie.’ Translation: “Bow ChickaΒ Bow Bow”

          5. MLA - Clarece says:

            I’ve had platonic, business related friends but nothing that ever extended outside of work so I don’t count those. In personal life, it’s the opposite. I would get the crush, then the rejection. Part of a healthy relationship is developing a friendship with compatibility for a strong foundation. One thing just leads to another with me… Lol

          6. 1jaded1 says:

            I had a platonic relationship with a coworker when I was with N2. N2 hated it. He hated that cw and I ate lunch every day. He especially hated it when cw and I would go out for lunch bc I was a passenger in his vehicle. Ffs. I couldn’t make N2 understand that there was nothing but a professional relationship. Ironically, I maintain contact with former cw…not with N2. That last slip still pisses me off.

          7. Jenna says:

            Clarece, your thinking is not old school at all. Many pple believe that a man and woman cannot be ‘just’ friends. It requires much discipline from both parties, and it’s definitely not for everyone.
            To answer your question, he asks me to stop being flirty on text because of his following explanation: he wants to stop reflecting me and subsequently leading me on and possibly give me the wrong idea. In fact, he prefers if i don’t start it in the first place, so there would be no fuel for him in that situation. I respect the realization he’s made, and thus i made a decision to no longer be flirtatious. He and i accept this will only work if it’s platonic. Keep in mind it took me months of no contact to finally agree to be his friend. I had to put the past behind me. My heart went out to him because he was abused by a male adult when he was a boy, a subject he quickly changes when i ask him. I think it is too painful for him to think about.
            Prior to this, he said he lost his identity and had comitted sin. He swore to never have any kind of relations (sexting included) with a woman again until he is married. (Although he no longer wants to get married because he learned that being intimate gives him anxiety- a fact he hesitantly shared with me upon my repeated questioning, and has not shared with anyone else). He says sexual friendships/pre-marital sex makes him feel like a sinner, like he’ll go to hell, and that it gets too complicated when the woman falls in love and he doesn’t.
            I signed up under a false profile on a few dating websites he was registered on (after we broke up). I have been following his profile on those websites and it indeed shows no activity. I even msged him with a beautiful picture (not mine to maintain anonymity) and did not receive a reply. I never revealed to him that i know about these websites. For almost a year now he is inactive on the websites. With this proof, his aversion to intimacy, his fear of an ipps falling in love with him, and his comittment to revert to his holy self, he has come a long way to re-gaining his identity, and i respect that. Our texting sessions are now platonic, but we still care about each other.
            Btw, regarding JN becoming sexual with you, who wouldn’t with your great personality and pretty blonde hair! πŸ˜‰

          8. indiglowsky says:

            Hi Jenna,

            I do not mean to interrupt, is it ok I join. I was reading and had a couple of questions and thoughts about this guy and the details you shared. I mean this with all due respect, are you sure he is heterosexual? Sometimes men that are not solely straight will test this out by trying to be straight and then realize they cannot do it. The other observation is that it is not shocking he is reluctant to be intimate if he has a past sexual trauma history as well. Some people experience complex ptsd from it for a long time. How did you guys meet? How long was your formal relationship?

            If you are not comfortable answering these, I understand, no pressure.

          9. Jenna says:

            Hi indy! Hope you had a great easter wknd! Of course you may interject! To answer your question, i am sure my ex is heterosexual. I apologize for the graphic nature of the response, but he gets a ‘physiological reaction’ (ahem) when i just look deeply into his eyes and stroke his face. He also reacts physiologically from just cuddling and hugging. Kissing gets faar more of a reaction, and sex is very passionate and long enduring.
            He also believes homosexuality to be a sin. And he does not display any of the typical, sometimes even subtle, male homosexual gestures and mannerisms. My ex is very masculine in physique, characteristics, and behavior.
            I did notice some signs of nervousness during romantic, non-sexual intimacy a few times. It took him 2.5 yrs to finally admit to me that intimacy makes him nervous. And you are correct. His past sexual abuse may very well be the cause of it. We were together for 2.5 yrs (8 months formally, and 2 yrs informally).
            Thanks for your comment. They are always welcome! Have a great day!

          10. indiglowsky says:

            Hi Jenna,

            Thank you for your response. That helps. I am sorry to be so forward with the question, I sometimes forget that others may be surprised by my blunt questions in the area of sexuality. I am pretty open about it and it popped into my head while reading your discussion with MLA.

            I hope you are doing well and keep up the healing! My Easter was with family and was good. Hope yours was as well. πŸ™‚

          11. Jenna says:

            Hi indy! Your question is not forward at all. I thought perhaps my response was a little forward, hence the pre-warning! I always appreciate your questions, comments, and insights. My Easter was relaxing, thank you.

          12. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi Jenna!
            Firstly, I hope you have a Happy Easter weekend!
            I must give you kudos because you were able to make a breakthrough with your Narc and get him to open up to you about his past abuse and get him aware of the dynamics playing out between the two of you. I can definitely see where coming to the place of friendship as you two have for now is comforting and it allows you to still be there for him. And it also helps when you know there isn’t another IP in the picture. I know it! lol (Nancy Drew there making the fake profile and sticking with that for almost 12 months).
            As far as JN, it never doesn’t get sexual with him. Even when he starts off saying things like “I desperately just want civility with you”, is just his opening. Being friends will not happen with him.
            Who just wants to text about sex, when you can HAVE real sex? And it’s really good too?
            As far as the abuse your ex endured as a child, it’s interesting how that manifested through his adulthood and how he reacts. Sometimes I wonder if JN had something happen from an outside family member. There are 1 or 2 pink flags but he’s so closed off, he wouldn’t let me make that connection. But he knew some of what I supported my husband through. And if anything, I learned hurt attracts hurt. Pain will attract pain if it’s not dealt with. Sometimes I think he’ll continue to hoover me until whatever demon he has is dealt with because I know I’ve shook him to his core a time or two.

          13. Jenna says:

            Hi clarece, thank you, and i hope you and your family had a great easter wknd as well! It was difficult to get my ex to open up about the abuse. He gave me verbal clues in bits and pieces over 2.5 yrs, then i put two and two together, and finally asked him in a non confrontational manner. He said it’s in the past, that he has forgiven the perpetrator, and asked me to not talk about it. But I can see it hurts him deeply. I still sneak it into conversations however, as i think it will be therapeutic for him to face it instead of burying it in the past. Since i am the first person he ever told, i feel like i should and can help him. And you are correct. It definitely helps when i know there is no new ipps in the picture, or else i may be jealous (though i should not be because he’s a narc after all)!
            Btw. JN saying “i desperately just want civility with you” made me chuckle a little because you are very civil, and he seems a bit on the dramatic side. I think that if something is hidden in JN’s past, you would be the one he would confide in. Thank you for sharing. I take special interest in your case due to the similarity of our narcs.

          14. MLA - Clarece says:

            Oh, I could hear JN’s words if I ever tried to nicely inquire about any kind of abuse. I would get the litany of “you’re overthinking again.” “Are you preparing for an art final, drawing your own wacky conclusions again?” (actually said to me once by him). I’m the biggest “conspiracy theorist” he knows. I “don’t listen and make up my own beginnings and endings to suit a scenario”.
            If I was that Cucko for Cocoa Puffs, why was I still hearing from him for over 4 years?
            I was amused you find me civil. Actually I am when I’m dealing with well-adjusted reasonable people. lol But HG has even seen my unruly side brought on by JN when I have forwarded some exchanges during consults. Hence why he has called me a SuperTanker. lol The civility flies right out the window.

          15. Jenna says:

            Clarece, lol! In that case you must be a ‘super tanker’ of fuel for JN. And JN seems alot like my narc in that he likes to avoid ANY kind of drama- “you’re overthinking”, “are you preparing for an art final?” Haha! He seems like quite the character… Our narcs must meet. I’d sure like to be a fly on the wall for that!

          16. Jenna says:

            Note: the comment underneathπŸ‘‡should be under my april 12 6:32pm comment. That is the consecutive order, and it will be easier to follow.

          17. Jenna says:

            Btw, i failed to mention the abuse was by a male adult in a position of power, and it was sexual abuse for three years when my ex was a boy (around the age of 11). Horrific! 😞

          18. Jenna says:

            HG, wordpress is not placing the comments in chronological order. I seem to be rambling out of the blue πŸ™†

          19. Jenna says:

            To clarify, he no longer engages in pre-marital sex, but has told me that due to our past, things will naturally progress in that direction (if we meet). And like i said, i have my reasons for avoiding intimacy (my progress would reverse). We have thus both decided that meeting is not in our best interest.

  18. Amy S. says:

    This is frightening.
    Very well written, though … Made me shiver.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  19. E. B. says:


    I wanted to write to you yesterday evening but I did not have time. I am really sorry you felt frustrated and were in tears. Hope you are feeling better today. Some articles can be a little bit triggering depending on our past experiences with narcissists.

    You asked about page numbers and paragraphs. Elated and Eroded is in Kindle format, which makes it easier to find something you are looking for. Search “Lesley” to go straight to the story HG was talking about.

    Elated and Eroded is really very good and like all other HG’s books I have read until now, full of priceless information not to be found anywhere else. My memory and concentration are not so good due to long-term (psychological) abuse so I usually have to go back to re-read his books and there is always something helpful I had not paid much attention to before.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you EB.

    2. ava101 says:

      Yes, Thank you E.B.!!

      (Messages from me directed at specific people and directed to me seem to get into the wrong funnel these days, into the one labeled “HG”.)

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Pardon me from commenting on my own blog, how awful of me.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        AVA and HG
        Will you two kiss and make up already.
        Ok nix the kissing but take off your pissy knickers with each other. The children (us) are watching.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha thanks for that NA. I will re-state the position for clarity :-

          1. A question was asked.
          2. I answered by pointing the questioner in the direction of the answer for reasons of efficiency etc as already repeatedly explained.
          3. The questioner would not accept this and instead, for some unknown reason, accused me of playing games when it flies in the face of
          a. The logic of being efficient;
          b. The logic of not needing to do so because any fuel obtained is so low-grade;
          c. The logic of the application of the five rules (which maintain a safe arena)

          and essentially responding in a provocative manner when it was both unnecessary and unfounded.
          Despite pointing this out repeatedly, the questioner has continued to ignore logic and advance the ill-founded accusations.

          This is both disappointing and insulting since it evidences a failure to take on board the central tenets of what I have been writing about in articles etc.

          I have made the position clear. I had hoped that the questioner would see sense but has not done so. I am bored of it now.

          1. Love says:

            I’m sorry, can you please explain section 3.A.1.B again? 😁
            What is with the numerical outlines lately? Are we going to see PowerPoint presentations in the near future? I’m teasing Mr. Tudor. 😘

      3. NarcAngel says:

        …..and what I see is Bernadette and Sheldon from Big Bang having a conversation.
        Btw-love them both.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha you cheeky bugger! Does that make you Sheldon’s mother?

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Now who is cheeky!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Nah, I am just right NA, you know that !

          3. indiglowsky says:

            Haha, NA and HG. Sheldons mother… though his mother is a bit more southern and baptist than I envision NA. I see NA as a hard core northern woman who “runs with the wolves” In Her fur bikini πŸ˜‰

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Im more Leonards mother in demeanour but with Sheldons mothers unintended sense of humour. When alcohol is involved Im back to the party in my pants who pees in the ashtray and wakes up naked on the bathroom floor with a facecloth over one shoulder to you know-retain heat. Wanna party?

          5. indiglowsky says:

            Hahahaha…bring some Indica chocolate and a jacuzzi and it’s on πŸ€£πŸ˜‚

      4. ava101 says:

        NarcAngel: haha. I used to call my exnarc “Sheldon” sometimes. Same problem understanding interpersonal relationships sometimes and just not getting the point.

  20. indiglowsky says:

    Oh wow, just read the story about “It” and her horrible treatment of your brother. What a witch. I see now why you did this. It’s a lot of work to get this type of payback. Seduce, get revenge and such…

    Worth the read. I’m guessing we will hear more about various exes in the up coming book, Asylum of the Grotesque.

    1. 1jaded1 says:

      Indy. If I ever get over my apprehension over online shopping, I will buy every one of HGs books. Thank You for shedding some light.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi 1Jaded1
        I too had that concern about shopping online (I still dont bank online), but it was getting in my way by limiting me (and we all know limiting me cant be good for anyone lol). So I designated one credit card with a low limit separate from ny regular card for online purchases only. That way if there is a problem its not affecting everything. The credit card company deals with any issues you might find and I have not had any. That might be a solution for you to ease any concerns. Just a thought.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Indy
      Yes, this is why I love the books. More information and context than can be conveyed here. I also like to read it for myself rather than rely on someone elses interpretation. I know I’ll probably get called out again for being a Lieutenant for saying this (thats fine), but I feel getting the books serves two purposes: I get the full story instead of snippets, and I can repay HG for his efforts in the small price I pay for the books. They really are affordable and many have attested here to the fact that HG has helped them more than therapy which can cost much more and that not everyone has access to. My understanding of the blog is that he supplies information to digest and then opens up the floor for discussion amongst ourselves. He offers his opinions, shares in the playful banter and discussions when he has time, and does answer lots of questions. He has always been clear that more involved questions should be through consultation. More time he spends here moderating and answering questions (and a lot of time moderating nonsense), is less time he has to get the books done so I am going to try to stop posting so much. I know he has a lot of irons in the fire and while it is his choice and I dont feel sorry for him in that regard, I do appreciate his time as I do anyone else assisting me in some way, and I know you do also, (even though we are both impatient for information books ourselves). Remarkable I think, what we do get from him considering what we were able to get from the Narcs in our own lives, and yet in some cases they were afforded more patience and in some cases respect.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you NA, that is a fair summary of the position. You should not feel any obligation to post less. In fairness, the vast majority of readers understand that posts can take some time to appear from moderation and the reasons why. It is a small number which get excitable from time to time! You are entirely correct that I direct people to the books because
        1. You will get far more detail than I can convey in a blog reply and it makes sense to refer people to the greater detail;
        2. You can as you state apply your own interpretation and by all means you can come back and ask a question about something in the books either here or in private consultation;
        3. If I have written it once in another piece (book or blog) I am not going to repeat myself but efficiently direct someone to that.
        All of this is sensible and obvious.

      2. indiglowsky says:

        Hi NA,
        Yes, totally agree. The 8 or 9 books I’ve read of HGs were invaluable to my escape and provided deeper knowledge and understanding. I’m finally getting to the point in my recovery to wish to know HGs back story more and will be purchasing more for following and understanding his story as well. As I noted to Ava above, he has his reasons and I respect those reasons given how much he has given for free here. He clearly is not doing this for financial gain, he has no need and it is clear in how much he gives. Yes, it is therapy too, and he has gone above and beyond in many cases that make this explanation too simplistic of his motives. And, regardless of what those motives are, he is doing a great thing for us all. Socio-Narc and all 😊 This should teach all of us, by example, that we all can have good within, grains of truth in our words, and still have reduced emotional empathy. Cognitive empathy is powerful. And let us not forget that the concept of justice, that sometimes the idea of justice is shared between narcissists and empaths. As with this story about It girl.
        Worth the read.

        1. karen1303 says:

          Can I just add something….last night I read an article here that was a total lightbulb moment for me. That one article has completely changed the way I view myself.
          I thanked HG from the bottom of my heart. No Doctor, therapist or counsellor has managed to heal me in the way that that single article did. However, it got me thinking deeply about HG and although he graciously accepts thanks it made me so sad that he can’t feel that ‘boost’ that most of us can when we do good for others. That feeling of ‘wow I did something good and I’ve made someone’s life better’ It’s a hell of a feeling and HG deserves to feel it! It really does sadden me that he can’t get the same reward out of helping others that the majority of us do

          1. indiglowsky says:

            Hi Karen,
            Yes, even just finding this blog can be and has been a life saver for those that “seize the power”. Rest assured, HG knows and I do believe he experiences satisfaction from being thanks and told how he has impacted hundreds (if not more) lives. Plus, there is a purpose for what he is doing here that many if not all of us may not be fully aware. With that said, I’ve learned more here from his work than any of my training I have done in psych. on narcissists and sociopaths. My past clients have benefited from what he has taught me. My trainer referred me to him. He has touched more lives than he knows. And, this is also his therapy as well. I hope he has gained from us here as much as we have from him. I’ve read differences in his writing here that suggest growth.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Indy the Marcher, Concocter of Tinctures, Elixirs and Potions.

          3. karen1303 says:

            HG do you feel anything at all knowing someone is better/happier/stronger because of you?
            I get the low level fuel of the gratitude you receive and I can see how you would feel superior as you teach us but is there ANYTHING that might feel like genuine pride in yourself for helping an other? Anything that makes you feel good because someone else is feeling better? A personal pleasure from seeing others progress?
            I’m probably banging my head here because everything I’ve read says different but I just don’t seem to be able to accept that you have no empathy whatsoever. That you have no feeling towards another other than personal gain. That’s just not how you present. (Or is the operative word there ‘present’?) But I still can’t come to terms with it when you go above and beyond what you need to.
            Puzzled as ever. The more I learn the more questions I have! Frustrating but fascinating at the same time.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I am proud of the efficacy of my writing and the provision of information, yes.

          5. karen1303 says:

            I know it makes no odds to you HG but I do wish you could feel that buzz. It’s not fair you can’t. Because you DESERVE to feel that elation. But then again, I guess you get your own buzzes that may well surpass our feelings of doing good for an other.
            Thanks for taking the time in replying to a question that probably made you roll your eyes and think “FGS how many times!!”

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, thank you Karen1303, I appreciate the sentiment in what you have written, but I have fuel.

          7. Jenna says:

            HG, does “proud” equate as happy? When i feel proud, i feel happy. So could this be as close to happiness for you?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            I feel pride, not happiness Jenna.

          9. Jenna says:

            HG, i could argue that given the appropriate circumstances, pride is a manifestation of happiness. If you feel a sense of elation, that is happiness.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            So really elation is happiness.

          11. indiglowsky says:

            I like where you are going with this, Jenna! Yes, there are many feeling words that stem back to the basic few emotions. HG, have you seen those emotion wheels? I am sure the docs have shown you. So, you may not feel complete and pure happiness, but slivers of it, or intensities with fuel that is similar or even identical to our happiness. I know (not to beat a point too much), I have had lots of attention (fuel) that has had me on cloud 9. Now, that feels like happiness to me (more superficial, though still happy)….deep happy might be what you do not feel. I don’t know….just speaking out loud.

          12. Jenna says:

            Indy, like you said, i agree that he may experience slivers of certain emotions, like in the form of fuel perhaps. I hope he is open to the possibility of categorizing it as such.

          13. Jenna says:

            Yes HG, elation is happiness. Can you feel elation? I think u can! 😊

          14. HG Tudor says:


          15. Jenna says:

            HG, pride = elation = happiness
            I’m sure you must feel good sometimes, like when you receive premium fuel. That feeling is happiness too.

          16. indiglowsky says:

            Now, I am curious. How do you KNOW you do not feel “happiness”? (Or other emotions that you say you do not have, such as sadness) I wonder how you quantify and define this very personal experience. I know you gather information from others on their experiences, though, I am curious beyond this. I am sure the docs have done their work in this area, I am just a wee bit skeptical that you do not feel these things, perhaps to a lesser degree.

            Respectfully asked,
            Indy **poof** magically inclined marcher.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            Because I have heard it described many times and I do not feel the way it is described.

          18. indiglowsky says:

            Just being a devils advocate here…(As I respect your personal experience and do not wish to invalidate that).

            As part of my job, I ask many children their experiences of various emotions, internally. I also ask this of adults in my assessments. The variability of internal experience is astounding. And, how each of us experiences happiness or sadness or what ever…is unique. Cannot truly be know fully by the other. Like our sense of “reality”. My sense of blue and your sense of blue may be radically different.

            Now, I know…I know. You will say, but there is more similarity in how people say this (media, TV, etc) and you do not experience it. AND, have we all not agreed to some degree that the info we are fed on the media and in books is suspect? It does not mean, you do not have it, though. It might be different, no? Or, at a lower end of the experience spectrum, no?

          19. HG Tudor says:

            I understand your point Indy. I think the best way would be for me to convey how I feel, essentially moving through different levels of fuel as this will allow people to gain a better understanding of how I do not feel happiness, not in the way that they do, because of what is actually felt by me at different stages.

          20. indiglowsky says:

            Thank you for your quick response. I would also like to suggest, people forget that non-narcissists also use fuel. And, when I get positive attention with emotion, I am pretty darned stoked. I wonder, have you considered this? That our emotions may also be on a fuel spectrum as well, just less dependent on such.

          21. indiglowsky says:

            πŸ‘©πŸ»β€πŸ”¬πŸ¦‡πŸŒΎπŸ„βš‘οΈ aisle 6 for “poofing” books πŸ“š, I told ya! Aisle 7, ye dark arts, aisle 8 nail polish.

          22. MLA - Clarece says:

            Me too! I’m hoping it’s one of the things he’s open to trying to learn.

      3. 1jaded1 says:

        Hi NA. I’m working on my aversion. Bank Fraud pisses me off. Fraud pisses me off. Fraudsters win. I’m trying to work through.

    3. superxena says:

      Hello Indy!
      All this comments woke up my curiosity about this book…That one I have not read yet..Now I have ordered in digital form and just about start reading it….In desperate need of getting more strenght and knowledge.NOW…I am feeling tempted to break no contact which I have maintained for 15 months now…all due to his continued “stupid”, ingenious ” low” energy hoovers…Sometimes I wonder if this is going to stop someday or is it going to follow me for the rest of my life😳Hope you are fine!!!//Superxena

      1. indiglowsky says:

        Hold strong, Super. I understand that temptation. You have reached a point I have yet to reach (9 months here) and it is so commendable. 15 months is no small feat.

        I used to want to contact to see if he was OK, to rip him apart, and sometimes just to play cat-mouse and be “mean” a little bit. Sometimes just loneliness. It comes and goes in waves. It is normal progression of your healing. They will loose strength with time. I suggest continued reading, personal healing work of your choosing (i.e. Therapy, yoga, meditation, social outlets, mani-pedis, massages, classes on skills you wish to learn and making new friends) just a few ideas that helped me. You also have us here 😊❀️

        1. superxena says:

          Thank you Indy..πŸ˜€ You really transmit your positive energy on this blog…I can imagine that you are a great counselor in real life.. Yes 15 months enduring his stupid hoovers,,lately a lot more than just ” low energy” hoovers: driving his motorcykle in front of my house..He knows I love and I miss our motorcycle trips..and now here in Sweden it is spring now so the weather is suitable for that! The motorcycle season started for two weeks ago… 15 months too long to still enduring his hoovers..I know I am a strong person but there are limits. The thing that worries me know is that FOR THE FIRST TIME in 15 months I am experiencing physiscal symptoms: I have had feber for the past4 days..My system is like overheated now…I am a strong believer of “the body feels what the soul feels”… It is just too much. I am very keen on my health..I work as a Fitness Couch?/ Health coach so I help people feeling better not just by training but as well by good diet,meditation etc.
          I just have to do something…HG is couching me but as I said..I am overheated now…enough is enough.
          My friends are fed up with this situation that has been going on for a while now. I do not speak about this either..
          Good to have this blog and sharing experiences .This blog feels like the equivalent of AAA but more like NAA( Narcissism Anonymous). I am just being ironic!

          What happened when you broke No contact???
          Please share a little bit of your experiences.
          Sorry if my post are not so clear or well formulated…but English is not my first language!

          1. indiglowsky says:

            Awwwthank you SuperXena,
            Your use of the English language is exceptional. I have been repetitively impressed by those here that speak so well and it is a second language for them.
            Regarding my history, I only broke no contact once, when I called him to tell him to stop warring me. I left him July 4 of last year and he went into a Hoover frenzy in August where he was calling and texting about 100 times a day for a week. Many were malign, such as threatening to break into my apartment and threatening to confront me at my work I was out of state on vacation and scared. I kept no contact until I got home and he sent a message about returning keys. I called back to set him straight, mail back keys and told him never to do what he did again or he’d have police on his doorstep. He knew I was stalked in the past by an ex that was a lower type. That man stalked me for years with no contact from me as I was in hiding due to his physical threats. I also was stalked by my ex-husband for years as well. My recent ex Hoover frenzy triggered a ptsd response in me due to past stalking. I’m better now though I still look over my shoulder. This is why I haven’t started dating yet again for the past 9 months. I have a clear pattern I need to work on too. I draw men to me that have lowered understanding of healthy love. I too must have a similar flaw as I am drawn in. I am getting better slowly in this. Thus my personal therapy journey is ongoing 😊 You are right, it IS like a 12 step here, lots of support and lots of addiction to certain emotions and interactions.

            πŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌ to your progress and health!!! ❀️

          2. superxena says:

            Wow! Indy…your story is quite painful and shocking! Hard work and a long journey! I am glad that you did not marry the last narc! I am very interested on knowing what his response was when you broke contact?Did he try to hover you back? How ?
   requires a lot of self discipline in order to break the same patterns.I like a quote that I usually I apply to myself( and my customers): “You can not reach perfection by training always the same wrong ways” . Easier said than done..

            My ex greater abused me psychologically..Same effects though as being abused physically…the only difference though is that I have no testimony of the things he has done and that he is still doing: In other words: I have no case against him! He knows that I have made ( for many years ago)a police report against a member of my gym( work place) for harassment…so he is not stupid…he knows that I can do it again but this time against he has opted for more ” covert” hoovers…but as harmful as a direct stalking..He is provoking me without leaving “real traces”.
            This is my first entaglement with a narc after being married many years with a” normal”. Father to my two children. I am greatful that he is a normal and a good father. And I have two sons that I love very much.

            Concerning dating: there is a nice man trying to date me now..but I am running away all the time from him..I am not ready yet although he is quite nice..

            Thank you for your comments about my English..Hoping that it does not sound so pretentious..but English is my third language!

            Good to write to you an exchange experiences..I find lots of strength in here!!
            Best wishesπŸ˜€

          3. indiglowsky says:

            He apologized and pleaded. He tried to get another chance and I said no and wished him well while simultaneously saying if he crosses those boundaries again, he will hav police charges. He has called a couple times and texted a couple times since my call, but I have not responded. During times when I was weaker (funeral) and a Hoover trigger for him (Christmas). He has since been quiet and I think he probably is dating or has another fuel source now. I’m relieved.

            I like your quote! Reminds me of this saying in AA,” the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result”.
            These life journeys make us stronger, wiser, and more equipped for the next lessons 😊🌸

          4. superxena says:

            Your “cases” are certainly more brutal than mine. It is not strange to have PTSD after all this! So you did actually had to move to another state?
            That is huge!! What about your children? How do they feel now?

            My ex greater was very subtle in his machinations. We were ” together”( if a relationship with a narc could be defined as that) in a formal relationship for 6 years. With all that comes with that : Immediate public status and pictures of us on he “requested” Introducing me to his family to his inner circle among friends and work…

            He really was in a hurry to show me around( like a trophy 😑). He wanted to move together( which I did not want too soon) and we did exchange rings.To make it short for you the first time I ended up the relationship after 6 months and he applied all the hovers he could:
            The grand hover,texts,mails even his mother called me and tried to convince to go back to him.For the next following years the same pattern every single year: me trying to escape him,him hovering me back..him accepting attending to family therapies and restarting the golden period…every year the same monstrous pattern.Until I got tired of it…no exhausted is a better word.

            His devalues were very subtle : comments, mind games,jealousy( extremely jealous…he used to tell me “I do not like the way men look at you”… It was ” of course ” my fault), punishments that came unexpected. It was like getting small doses of ” venum ”

            I have been active on this blog for 5-6 months now. It is very interesting to see my own development on this blog:

            1st Phase :state of shock by reading HG’s articles( the cruel truth)
            2nd : learning ,understanding and awareness.Just an observer on the blog.
            3th: Bombing HG with questions
            4th: Putting my ex greater’s behaviours in a box.
            5th: Learning to deal with the box
            6th: learning to protect me against him or other narcs
            7th: Self irony.Actually finding the blog very therapeutical and I am having fun expressing myself
            8th: Deciding seriously if I am going for some revenge!That is where HG ‘s intervention comes more direct.πŸ˜€

            Sometimes I get a little bit weary..but it helps sometimes to laugh a little bit about this..But it does not take away the pain nor the anxiety of a possible hover or punishment for leaving him.

            I could keep writing the rest of the night..but I should get some sleep. Please feel free to share with me your own personal development on this blog!
            BTW are you from USA?
            Wishing you the bestπŸ˜€πŸ˜€

      2. E. B. says:

        Indy, you are really strong to deal with all that! The two exes who stalked you remind me of the sociopaths in The Gift of Fear.

        1. indiglowsky says:

          Hi EB.
          Thank you. I definitely need to look up this book.
          My first ex that stalked me reminded me of Sleeping with The Enemy, but he wasn’t as smart. I lived in a very small town and had to move with none of my friends knowing where. Only my parents and sis. He was brute, all brute. He threatened my life and threatened to kidnap my child (out of spite as he never visited during scheduled times) My ex husband was smarter and was not a brute. He did tear apart my car, hunt me down, intimidate, smear, find where I lived, left notes and tracked me in multiple ways. He even sent money in check form, to track me. I never cashed them, haha. Both of these instances were after I went on my version of “no contact” before I knew what it was.

          1. E. B. says:

            I admire people like you who can deal with dangerous people like your exes with so much strength and dignity. Is the ex-husband you are talking about the same who has been hoovering you after your husband passed away? If your ex-husband has always been able find out where you live, do you think he gets help from Lieutenants or maybe from your Turncoat Coterie? If Lessers do not have a network of people to help them or the financial means, they will not go far if you successfully escaped them. The book “Escape” has a lot of good advice and information about what narcissists do to locate their victims. It was interesting to read about photos people upload.
            I read The Gift of Fear several years ago and I can recommend it. It was important for me to learn to evaluate *personal risk*. The chapter Intimate Enemies has a list of 30 red flags. Our *enemy* does not necessarily have to be an IP. I had not interacted with any violent Lessers until I moved to the place where I live today. I know that if I happen to be alone with any of the two Lessers next door, I will be at risk.

          2. indiglowsky says:

            Hi EB,
            You are very kind. I look at it this way, it makes me a stronger and more informed woman that can share this info with others.

            My story with my exes is kinda complicated. So, I have only been married once. I probably should give numbers to them with initials. My son’s father is #1LN (lesser narc). He does not stalk me anymore. He is the one that resulted in my moving hundreds of miles away. #2H (ex husband that stalked me across states) He did send me a Christmas message wishing me well. (possible benign hoover, though I am not sure if he is a full narcissist, more likely unspecified personality disorder) . #3 (no in picture at all, due to death and did not have narcissism. Was addicted to medications and such. A true love that could not last.) #4 was a blip of 10 months, classic narcissist. He only hovered once. I disconnected all contact abilities, and he never tried beyond. Thank God! (never stalked). #5 is my recent ex that I left in July. Not so classic narcissist, though classic in HG books. A covert, cerebral leaning upper mid ranger. He last attempted a hoover on Christmas as well by leaving me a message and saying he wished me well and missed me and some guilt tripping (sort of benign hoover).

            Now, my ex husband always could find me on Facebook (that is where his Christmas message came in on). When I first left him, his “hoovers” were quite maligned and he knew where I lived through searching the white pages (back in the late 90’s and early 2000’s). He was a computer dude and was always good at stalking. I did not keep his friends and his family hated me for how I left him (I had him hospitalized for a fake suicide which was an insult to their Ivy league family reputation). (Geez, maybe he was a narcisst, by HG definition). That was the one thing I did right, cutting those ties with those that are connected. That is how I left #1 as well. I knew his family and my friends could possibly share where I was and so, given the risk of safety, I cut all ties (Like Sleeping with the Enemy).

            I loved the book Departure Imminent. I used them along with Exorcism. HG freaked me about about the use of tracking devises in his book, Evil. I would not have put that one past my ex-husband. Thank God that was not possible for him back in the early 2000s.
            Looking up Gift of Fear. πŸ™‚

            I apologize if you have shared this on the blog, though I sometimes forget peoples stories(I can be a bit ADHDish), How did your journey that led you to find HGs work happen? Keep safe in your neighborhood!
            Best to you!

          3. E. B. says:

            Thank you for clarifying about your exes. It must have been hard for you with your first child and ex #1 and then to meet #2, who stalked you across the states. I have not seen Sleeping with The Enemy. I read about it on Wikipedia and it made me shiver. If you do not want your exes knowing where you live, please check that your photos on FB do not include EXIF data (the exact location where the photos were taken: longitude and latitude). See Escape. You can change your privacy settings on FB to allow “only friends” to contact you. Use email filters and create a black list (settings/options) to reduce benign hoovers.

            Thank you also for sharing your experience with others. My present situation is complicated and I do not feel comfortable giving too many details about it. I came here because I am targeted by sociopathic women. They are more vindictive, sadistic and obsessed than men. They use more malignant hoovers than benign ones. They know *how* to be believed when they tell lies about their targets. Their partners believe every single word their sociopathic partners say without hesitating. The dirty work is usually done by their coterie/lieutenants. I have noticed that some people do not believe what I say when they ask me something or when I ask them to help me. Maybe it is my body language sending the wrong signals, I just don’t know why. Showing “evidence” has not worked either. Fortunately, my husband, who is the only one who really knows me, has not let anyone turn him against me. I could not be in an intimate relationship with someone I cannot trust or who does not trust me. It takes *years* to get to know someone.

          4. indiglowsky says:

            Thank you EB for the tips. Yes, my FB is on private, very private. He now just messages me and doesn’t show up. Thank God. I keep my messenger and email open, as oddly enough, I like to know if they are looking so I have a heads up. I know it is not a guarantee. But, it helps me feel a little bit in control. I have no temptation to reply. They cannot see if I have read them or not. This is always why I have not blocked my phone, so I have a heads up incase I need to hide again. It is a bit of the PTSD residuals, I figure. And, I feel a tiny bit like I have my ear to the ground for warnings.

            I am sorry that you are dealing with some very difficult sociopathic women. I hope you do not have to share a job space or have regular contact with them πŸ™ I am glad you have the support of a loving husband that knows the true you. Indeed, it can take a lifetime to know anyone. That is the beauty of some relationships. In other ways, it is also the heartache (Like finding out after years it was not real).

          5. E. B. says:

            Another interesting story starring HG and Lesley in “Treasured and Tormented” !! πŸ™‚

          6. indiglowsky says:

            Hmmm, I need to read these personal stories. I was waiting for the Asylum of the Grotesque to be published though am tempted now.

          7. Jenna says:

            E.B., are you serious? Then i must buy ‘Treasured and Tormented right away! The suspense is killing me!

          8. E. B. says:

            Yes, Jenna. Just searched this blog and I found it too. It is called Tractor Beam.

  21. 1jaded1 says:

    Let’s watch the new version together shall we? No?. Okay…Did not think you could handle . Poor Lesley.

    1. Green eyed chick 666 says:

      Poor Lesley my ass – she had no soul

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Made me laugh.

      2. 1jaded1 says:

        Hmm. Thank you.

      3. 1jaded1 says:

        I have lost my soul and therefore have none. I wouldn’t make fun of someone’ because of a stutter or any other imperfection. What is your point? I now know the .context.

      4. 1jaded1 says:

        I have no soul but I somehow manage to not poke fun at others. HG. Feel free to bust your gut.

      5. Amy S says:

        But what exactly did Lesley do? Can anyone enlighten me or link me…?

        1. Twilight says:

          I believe the answer is in HGs book elated and eroded. She was heartless in what she did. Recommend reading it.
          All I can say is retribution comes in many forms.

          1. Amy S. says:

            already purchased and reading:-)

        2. Victoria says:

          Hi HG,
          I read about Leslie in Elated and Eroded and forgive my memory, I have read now 20 of your books, she made fun of your younger brother because he was shy. Just curious does she have any idea that you sought her out and had a relationship with her to avenge your brother? Did she ever put together the “it” had to do with your brother as well?
          I don’t know that I am right at stating this but if true HG, did you resent her the who time you were together?
          Just trying to finish the story which was left open in the book.
          Thank you wise sir!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No she has not done so.

        3. Victoria says:

          Hi HG,
          Did Leslie know that you both seduced her and called her “IT” to avenge what she did to your brother? You never mentioned the end of the saga in your book Elated and Eroded. It’s like reading a really good mystery and not finding out the end πŸ™‚
          Thank you wise Sir πŸ™‚

          1. HG Tudor says:

            It is not over yet Victoria.

          2. Victoria says:

            I just want to thank you for the time you take to answer our questions on this blog and on email. Despite your busy schedule, the requirements of your private life, your profession, your social life and your R&R time, you always manage to answer thousands of questions per day/week. For me you have been a savior in showing me the facts about what narcissist are and do. I tried other avenues prior to you and the explanations were not there. So, I am sure my fellow bloggers will join me in thanking you for all you do and for showing us how to become and stay Narc free.
            Thank you kind Sir! πŸ™‚ πŸ™‚

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Victoria, I appreciate you expressing your gratitude.

          4. Jenna says:

            Well said victoria! Yes, thank you from the bottom of my heart HG!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome Jenna.

  22. Green eyed chick 666 says:

    Lesley had it coming. Hopefully her next boyfriend calls her “thing” – she disgusts me.

    Good job HG – you get a standing ovation from me!

  23. Ms brown says:

    God, HG!!! You have me rolling on the floor laughing!!! (all of the above banter)…. Now, my comment about “IT”… She had it coming and this is a fine example of what people call “Karma”…

  24. indiglowsky says:

    Hi Ava,
    You doing ok today? Thought I’d check as you seem more upset than usual. I understand your frustration with not getting a quick answer though may I suggest this: some answers are harder to come by than others. Some require books. Like yours and my experience with our relationships with our ex narcissists, our d patience s are not short. This experience took time to gain, and thus we too are “experts” in a way, through these experiences. If a friend asked you certain questions about your experience, some questions would be easily answered with little effort while others would require an ongoing dialog over a period of weeks and months. This is the same with HG, though he has hundreds of questions and questioners a day. And, he answers many free.

    I was curious based on a comment you wrote, are you translating the works into a different language, Ava? Is English your second language as you have a strong command of the English language. I do feel for you on having to make that effort, that is s lot of work. Maybe HGs works will he published in multiple languages one day.

    And, here is something to make you giggle at my expense: I once bought a book of HGs just to get the definition of one phrase if his: the Carosel of Masks–hehe. He told me to look at his Grimoire book. Hehe. It was only 4 dollars so I said, what the heck, he has freely provided me with guidance through some tough times on here with my Hoover frenzy for which I’m so so grateful. I also used his others books to plan my successful escape. Those books gave so much more than could he given in this blog. Priceless.

    My guess is he has a reason he is directing you to the book.

    Hang in there! Hugs

    1. indiglowsky says:

      Typo not ” d patients” but “experiences”

      1. indiglowsky says:

        I just reread ALL the comments…hehe, context IS important🀣 Ava, buy the book 🀣 In fact, I think I will now given the hints to some interesting back story. Anyone that messes with Lennox is not cool.

    2. ava101 says:

      Hey Indy, thank you!
      I’m fine, just upset with HGs behaviour and games.
      I’m not particularly interested in this story. I was making small talk.
      I have another comment ‘in moderation’. Of course.

      Yes, English is my second language, but I was referring to a book by William Butler Yeats I had translated for publishing. I have a master’s degree in English literature and philology and I write myself. Not in English yet, though.

      Sure ‘he'(*lol* my narcmother used to refer to my father not as ‘it’, but as ‘he’, never using his name) has his reasons, it’s the whole point of the blog. As if he would care about my story or what would help me. I’m thinking about asking my exnarc himself, at least he did admit a few things.

      Have a great evening Indy, I’m going to sleep now.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No games, I’ve made that clear.

      2. Love says:

        Poor Mr. Tudor. Some of us do seem to develop a love/hate relationship with you. I take that back, not hate, but maybe anger. I’ve been there too… I was mad at you for not posting my comments. I boycotted you for about a second. But it is hard to stay away from you. And it is hard to stay away from this great support group. ❀

      3. Jenna says:

        Oh for heaven’s sakes Ava. I’ll give you the answer. Aa far as i remember, Lennox, HG’s brother, was interested in lesley. He approached her at a bar, but he lacks confidence and stutters. He started with “It it it…” Lesley repeatedly mimicked it, and she and her friends laughed and laughed at him. I believe he fainted out of shame, if i remember correctly.
        When HG coupled with lesley, she did not know he was that poor stuttering man’s brother. And boy, did HG get her good! He showed compassion for his brother, and gave her a taste of her own medicine. HG can be a good man. πŸ‘πŸ‘πŸ‘ Bravo HG!!
        I hate pple who pick on the elderly, the weak, children, animals, etc. Standing ovation frm me HG!!

  25. Mona says:

    Please, Ava and HG, stop that battle. You always behaved well to each other until now. If you allow, HG, I will tell Ava in short words what happened. Lesley is a girl, who insulted one of HG`s brothers in a very rude way. The word “it” played a great role.

  26. ava101 says:

    My ad blocker tells me that there are supposed to be ads. :/
    Which is okay, of course.
    Wilder purpose? Hm. Will try to find it. πŸ˜‰
    Yes, I have had many questions answered, thank you so much for your insight and your patience. πŸ™‚
    As you have yourself. Kind of.
    Many open questions, too. πŸ™
    But I wasn’t complaining! I was asking NarcAngel to explain … *cry* ;(
    Why?? didn’t your ex dump the content of the shower gel on you? Why???

    1. ava101 says:

      *tears of frustration mixed with tears of laughter*:
      And what on earth have you answered Ms Brown?! How am I supposed to find that comment?!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I explained to her why I allow the various comments re certain people through to demonstrate certain dynamics.

        You can find it by looking through the recent comments but it is your lucky day because here it is

        1. To correct errors; and
        2. To demonstrate the nature of a particular dynamic which I believe is instructive to readers and will enable people to test their new found knowledge and skills.
        I have not engaged in extensive answers as it does not as you identify, warrant doing so and I have also removed posts which were duplicates and nonsensical.
        I take the view that there are many outcomes and dynamics that appear on this blog. From constructive robust people looking to learn and move forward, from very hurt and angry people, people who are confused, people who are borderlines, those who are narcissists but do not realise, those who have other conditions and therefore I think it is useful to allow these all to be exhibited. Of course, it is not something I allow to rumble on forever once the point has been demonstrated.

      2. ava101 says:

        Thank you. You had told me THAT already. Thanks for repeating.
        My lucky day …

        BTW: I beg to differ. I don’t think that positive emotions come more easily to empathic people. Not at all. I for my part just try not to take it out on anybody else. But if you like, I will do so for you.

      3. NarcAngel says:

        Tears? Frustration?

        Epic fail.
        Report to remedial.

      4. ava101 says:

        You have certainly demonstrated your kind of narcissistic behaviour nicely, my exnarc would also rather enter into a huge discussion for days, giving lots of reasonable explanations, demonstrating a kind of arrogance that left me speechless, as to why he could not have given a simple, short information in one or two sentences. Especially not when his professional expertise was asked for. Talking in circles for days, spending lots and lots of words and time on beating around the bush, crafting lenghty explanations why he couldn’t give a brief explanation on something else, and so on. Your answer referring me and others to the book is arrogant, I don’t appreciate this, and I’m not one of your groupies who have to read everything you have published. I don’t have time for that, as my life’s center is not really “narcissism”, even if it might appear so sometimes … We’ve had the same discussion before, I’m sure you remember the result, AND I was only asking something of NarcAngel, nothing of importance, not of you (OMG how could I).
        So, thank you for the demonstration, I had almost forgotten.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. Incorrect. The five rules act against doing this.
          2. Incorrect. You are a tertiary source therefore it is not worth my effort to engage in narcissistic behaviours because your fuel is so low grade and I gain my fuel outside of this arena.
          3. Incorrect. You asked a question. There is an answer, a detailed one, contained in another source. It makes complete sense to save me time to direct you to that to gain that answer. If you don’t want to read it, fine, but don’t expect me to write it out again just because you choose not to avail yourself of the source of the answer.
          It is a straight forward explanation as to why I directed you to this source and to then engage in stating this is done as part of narcissistic behaviour is both wrong and insulting.

      5. E. B. says:

        The book is Elated and Eroded. You can use the “Look Inside” feature on Amazon.

    2. Love says:

      Ava, Lindsey was quite cruel to Mr. Tudor’s younger brother, who seems to be a wonderful empathic soul. That is why it is hard for me to believe that Lindsey had any empathic traits. Even if she was very young, influenced by her friends, and seeking their approval, as an empath, she would have been riddled with guilt and full of remorse for her actions afterwards. She would have called, wrote letters, and showed up at his house apologizing profusely.

      1. Love says:

        Just realized I called her Lindsey twice. Sorry… Lesley.

      2. ava101 says:

        Love and Mona, THANK YOU! <3 <3
        Nice to see that there are sensible people around.
        Everyone else: maybe note the time they had written these normal short replies which were held back till today.

        So, HG is our good avaenger hero, now …
        Doesn't add up at all, though, even more the reason for her to pour the shower gel over him.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Maybe note the fact there are hundreds of messages for me to read.

          It does add up but you cannot see it.

        2. Love says:

          Pouring shower gel on him sounds kinky πŸ˜‰
          Mr. Tudor, what did I say that was wrong in the comment that has disappeared? You’re being a bad boy again.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Shower gel is child’s play. Better to replace his Listerine with vinegar. Then his willy banjo would be off key for a bit.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Easy tiger.

          2. Jenna says:

            “Easy tiger” – i cannot help but wonder if you use this phrase during sex. Lol…

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            Haha! I think it’s the IP having to say that to HG!

          4. Jenna says:

            Lol clarece! πŸ˜‚ So true!

      3. Love says:

        I’m so sorry! I found the comment that I accused you of deleting. I know, I know, I’m always vilifying you. You’re not a bad boy.

  27. ava101 says:

    Oh, for %&x ……….
    I’ve written altogether 5 books so far and translated one, and also many many blog posts and articles. You want me to answer back to read them to get an answer from me?! We could communicate by giving each other page numbers (or whatever it is one indicated in kindle e-books) & paragraphs?
    There is a reason for your actions?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I don’t follow your comment.

      1. ava101 says:

        Me: “why was it done”
        You: “see elated & eroded”
        Me: “Oh, for %&x ……….
        I’ve written altogether 5 books so far and translated one, and also many many blog posts and articles. You want me to answer back to read them to get an answer from me?! We could communicate by giving each other page numbers (or whatever it is one indicated in kindle e-books) & paragraphs?
        There is a reason for your actions?”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I still do not follow the paragraph starting with “I’ve written”.
          Why is it relevant what you have written? Or do you mean you have read five books so far?

          I don’t follow
          “You want me to answer back to read them to get an answer from me?!”
          Do you mean, I (HG) want you (ava101) to go and read the relevant book to receive the answer from me (HG)? If you do, yes, for the reason explained in my other post.

          I don’t understand the reference to page numbers etc.

      2. ava101 says:

        Instead of providing a simple short answer, you say I should read a whole book you’ve written. That’s not helping much, at least not for the moment. A bit much of an effort, to continue the dialogue here, commenting on your blog post.
        So, when you have a question in future to ask of me, I was wondering if you would want me to do the same: to refer to one of my books in which you might find the answer.
        I there a reason for how you prioritise spending your time? Answering comments, writing, etc.?
        She cheated on you?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well the simple fact remains I have already written the answer and at length so it makes sense for me to refer people to where the answer is rather than keep writing it out (given I am pressured for time).
          I don’t ask questions of you. That is why your comment confused me.
          My private life comes first – thus professional and social etc, then I deal with consultations, thereafter I try to spread my stretched time between writing new material, dealing with e-mail queries, addressing comments on the blog, addressing comments/messages on FB, Twitter, YouTube.

          Someone did comment a little while ago that they were grateful for the amount of responses I provide on the blog compared to other places where often they are not answered.

          1. 12345 says:

            Personally, I have never asked a question that you did not answer except for one. It was a very broad question that would’ve taken quite a bit of time to answer which I think would’ve been unfair to other posters. You referred me to Sex And The Narcissist which answered my question and more. Again, this is just personally, I can’t believe you take the time to answer our questions when you could just as easily tell us to purchase an email consult if we wanted answers to questions.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you 12345, that is a fair summary of the position.

          3. karen1303 says:

            Yes I absolutely agree 12345!
            I have often wondered if HG will suggest I ‘buy’ a consult’ when I’ve asked my questions. Thankfully he hasn’t, but he could and has every right to! My questions have been complex before too and I appreciate the time and effort HG puts in to explaining in simple enough terms for me to understand. Again I’ll say how could you NOT appreciate and respect HG for this? He owes us nothing. He doesn’t have to answer and he doesn’t have to explain. To be fair his patience must be tested to the max by some of the questions/comments yet he still chooses to assist us.
            Another thing that HG has my utmost respect for is the fact that he reads and allows supportive posts to each other. I can’t figure that he can gain anything from our personal exchanges to each other yet he still allows them and goes to the trouble of approving them.
            (To be fair, this confuses me somewhat as to HG’s reason for allowing the supportive posts through as I can’t figure out a motive or gain from a narcs point of view) but motives don’t matter – what matters to me is his respectful, caring and helpful manner (even though I know that must be a facade) he still displays it better than most ‘good’ people I know.

          4. 12345 says:

            So, I’m about to talk about HG like he’s not here Karen 1303:) I catch myself thinking…well, he’s so respectful and kind to help all of us, how can he possibly be a narcissist? Then I think…”oh my gosh…I’m doing it again!” Regardless of my crazy thinking, I too am beyond thankful that he shows patience, tolerance and kindness towards us. I’ll see new people come on the site and ask questions I know have been asked before and he answers them with the same respect as he answered me when I asked the same question when I was new. And you’re right, no matter the motive, I have benefited more in the last few months of reading here than I have in the last five years of therapy.

          5. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi Karen1303 & 12345!

            He is very generous with his time and most patient in explaining perspectives and actions even when it seems impossible to grasp.
            In fact, I would venture he wishes he could spend more time giving lengthy answers. He was able to in the early days and months when it was only the blog and books. You should see the questions I would throw at him when I was very raw from my wounds. If we were in a classroom, I’d be the front row student with her hand constantly up with another question. Lol The consults are an excellent resource now for people to get a one-on-one concentrated exchange on their situation and he will give his undivided attention.
            Don’t forget, by engaging with us and answering our questions, it maybe gives other readers the courage to speak up and ask a question or respectfully debate a topic. It’s a very encouraging environment he has created.
            This is also part of his therapy and HG has always said he likes to learn from us too (not just new manipulation tactics), but acknowledging different perspectives that challenge his thinking or gives him issues to talk about with the doctors. It’s a win-win all the way around. I do feel vested in his journey to see where all this leads for him!!

          6. SVR says:

            You cannot keep everyone happy HG. Honestly some people. I thank you very much for your time. I lead a busy life myself and cannot fathom how you manage it all. Your appreciated by many and from me I am truly thankful as my recovery is moving along very well. πŸ˜‰

      3. ava101 says:

        Page numbers: we could communicate in code instead of giving straight answers. So, instead of stating something, you say “see book xxx, page nr. xx, line xx”.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ah I see. Thank you for explaining. I don’t have time to direct people to precise page numbers and in fairness the page numbers on my manuscripts change when they are uploaded to kindle, so doing so wouldn’t be productive.

      4. ava101 says:

        You’re welcome.
        No time for giving straight answers and no time for indicating where the answer lies written in the book. Oh, my.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Oh come on.

      5. ava101 says:

        Oohhhh you don’t ask questions. Will keep that in mind.

        Well, I understand that it’s hard to find time for your tertiary sources.
        I also see that some of the comments (from other people, not you) are a waste of time. Still, you manage to find time to play with those.
        But at least you make money out of the comments.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Please explain how I make money out of the comments?
          With regard to certain comments – see the answer just given to Ms Brown – there is a wider purpose at work.
          Of course, you have never had any questions answered have you?

      6. ava101 says:

        123…… That is so not my point.
        I haven’t asked a question about myself (my exnarc relationship), nor anything which is important to me.
        I was simply taking interest in the discussion!
        I got better things to do than spending even more time with these discussions!

  28. Christine says:

    I love reading your books and I think you’re an excellent writer, But these actions that you just described? They literally made my skin crawl. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do you know why it was done?

      1. ava101 says:

        Since when do you need a justifiable reason?
        But why was it done?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do not, but there is usually a reason for my actions (of course it is from my perspective so I now understand it will not be acceptable or palatable to people on the other side of the fence, but there will be a reason. I am not haphazard). See Elated and Eroded.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            My God! The suspense. I just bought Elated and Eroded…

  29. Love says:

    Happy Monday lovely people !
    Mr. Tudor, I know you’ve stated that Lindsey had some empathic traits, but I wonder if she was a lower level somatic?
    My therapist says that from his experience narc-narc relationships actually last longer though they’re quite tumultuous. They’re more successful because both parties play the same games.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That might be the case but you have overlooked once crucial detail relevant to my response. This might be applicable when neither knows what the other is, but not when one of us knows what we are. An empathic victim is far more suited than a narcissistic one. Thus most of the time a narcissist who ensnares another narcissist does not know it, nor does their narcissist ‘victim’. When you know your kind, you do not pick one for romantic partner.

      1. Love says:

        That makes sense. Thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

    2. indiglowsky says:

      I just read above all the work you are putting in toward your healing!!!! I didn’t know and am so proud of you!!! indeed a huge step and it is clear in your comments you a making great progress! I hope in and out of the blog at random points and may have missed where you shared this before.!

      Just made my day 😊

      1. Love says:

        Awww thank you Indy! ❀ This is the first time I’m talking about my treatments. They’re fairly new, aside from dance and yoga. Going about it naturally is a battle. I was worried about the long-term side effects of western medication (though I’m grateful for them being available).

        1. indiglowsky says:

          Brave journey Love ❀️

  30. ballerina9 says:

    Isn’t Lesley the ex who sadly killed herself? (Nothing to do with your relationship with her).

    1. HG Tudor says:


  31. MLA - Clarece says:

    H.G., you have heard there is a motion picture remake of “IT” coming to theatres in Oct.? I suppose you’ll want to send Lesley tickets to go.

    1. indiglowsky says:

      MLA, haha! Don’t give him more ideas!

      Reading this again, and again i felt my own reaction I would have had, glares, throwing pillows, and defiance. I was once told what to wear for a 2nd date. “No denim”, he said. I thought, who the hell is this man? I showed up in a denim skirt. Yeah, the 3 date sociodude I made previous reference to…my ex midranger would have never had the pecans to tell me what to wear. I think he enjoyed my defiance tho.

      1. SVR says:

        OMG! The narc I knew told me my swim suit was to big for me (I had lost weight) and he said I needed a new one so I wore a bikini. He also asked me to wear a skirt on one outing. Like a child I complied to both.

    2. C6H12O6 says:

      😧 But that’s just mean… Oh, right. Wait why are you actually suggesting that?

    3. C6H12O6 says:

      Actually, after all these comments going on with Ava, I went ahead and read Elated and Eroded…

      Fair enough. I can see why someone might suggest that. That was a pretty messed up thing to do to a guy.

      @Ava if you have Amazon prime you can read many of his books for free and they’re not long. I imagine you’ve spent more time composing these comments than it would have taken to find the part he’s talking about.

  32. KDB says:

    Poor Lesley.

    Sadly, I felt more apologetic towards HG’s brother in this story. I’m not saying Lesley deserved such horrendous treatment but I suppose justice was somewhat granted towards the guilty party. Just sad though.

  33. Kris says:

    As I read this, two things came to mind. First, the one most of the readers went to. The degrading treatment of this poor girl. The second was….I most likely would have responded with ‘Hobbitsis like being clean.’ But, I would have still been pretty upset.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Read his book Elated and Eroded and see if you still feel sorry for her.

      1. abrokenwing says:

        Thanks NarcAngel, I just read about what she did to Lennox and I can now see the bigger picture and have a better understanding of IT story.

      2. ava101 says:

        Why, NarcAngel, what did she do?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See Elated and Eroded.

      3. ava101 says:

        I was hoping that NARC ANGEL could tell me. Don’t have time & money to go and read a book to get a simple answer.
        But my guess is that she was kind of resilient and chilled. Because if it had been me you wouldn’t have gotten as far as into the bathroom with me and if you had, you would have needed a shower yourself.
        Have to think of Gollom (I’m so sorry that I’m not taking the time to google how his name is spelled correctly), too.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well if you want the answer, I have already explained it in part of that book, so it is there already. I don’t have the time to keep writing out the same answer when I have already provided it.
          Just to help, your assumption about her isn’t correct.

      4. ava101 says:

        Okay, good. I can live and sleep well without knowing.

      5. SVR says:

        I was looking at some of the comments and cannot understand what some people say about Lesley. I think it was horrid of HG to use that tactic but I suppose I will read the book before I really comment as there is obviously something else.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed there is SVR.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            HG, in the book you wrote how Dr. O commented on notes from Lennox that he really appreciated you sticking up for him with Lesley.
            I’m curious… can you elaborate on how you had that conversation with him? That you avenged her treatment of him by pursuing a relationship with her with this the sole purpose for revenge?
            Does Lennox get conflicted about seeing some of the actions you carry out despite them being beneficial to him sometimes but knowing they can have bad implications for others. Not excusing Lesley at all from her actions, just to clarify. More that he worries for you and the implications it brings for you.
            Lastly, why not be done with her HG? She is clearly not a high caliber person and by the sounds was very vapid and shallow. You got great revenge on her. (Did she come to find out that Lennox was your brother, hence why you called her IT?) Lennox felt validated. It’s like having a great winning streak at a roulette table. Walk away with your winnings. Before you say fuel, there has got to be more meaningful fuel sources for you at your disposal.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Lennox recognises that I am extremely effective and he is torn between his evident open-mouthed admiration for how effective I am (and also how it benefits him) but it also troubles him because of his empathic nature when he sees the impact it has on others. He used to worry about the repercussions for me but he has realised that I either largely avoid them or they bounce off for me.

            Some people have to learn when they have been conquered. Lesley is one of those.

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            I can see why you are very fond of your younger brother!

  34. ava101 says:

    My ex never managed to pronounce my name right, but I miss that. Where I live the dialect is anyways ‘it’ plus name (don’t know how to explain).
    But my father used to talk about us in third person form, when we were present, addressing my mother, instead of us directly and using also another dialect form which I hate. A bit like ‘that one’.
    When a colleague who came from the same area as my father used it later on, not meaning anything by it, I could have jumped each time.

    1. E. B. says:

      My mother would use a term which could be translated as “that one” when she spoke about me to other people. When she spoke to me, she called my name. You wrote: “…my father used to talk about us in third person form, when we were present, addressing my mother, instead of us directly… “. This is what my mother did to me.
      Considering that abuse is passed on from generation to generation, it is possible that it was actually a rough translation from another language (your father’s).

  35. SVR says:

    This has given me an idea. HG i know he haTed being called arse. I do not see him but I could potentially bump into him as I have done many months ago. If he tried to talk to me like he did last time which is the best course of action for a lesser please 1. Totally ignore and continue walking or 2. Say ” I see IT is still breathing” and continue walking away. Want to be prepared. Don’t want to give IT even a smidgen of fuel. Thanks in advance.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Ignore and keep walking.

      1. SVR says:

        Thank you for your advice HG. It is very much appreciated. Also can I ask will he be treating his partner and child abusively and do some people like to be in relationships like this?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          His partner is going to be the most likely target of his abuse during devaluation.
          Nobody ‘likes’ to be abused (save in the dynamic of humiliation in a sexual sense) but there are those who sub-consciously are attracted to such relationships and this, along with other factors, causes them to remain in them and indeed seek out those who behave that way.

          1. Love says:

            Yes, I agree. I have sub-consciously or consciously been attracted to abusive highly volatile relationships all my adult. It did not feel right unless there was a lot of turmoil. The highs were exhilarating and the lows were ‘endured’. However, I have lived drama free for a year now and I’m finally experiencing side effects. A friend of mine has an interesting saying, ‘if you don’t deal with it, it will eventually deal with you’. And oh boy, is it dealing with me 😬 My lifestyle choices finally caught up with me. I am learning to be good to me for once. Treat myself gently and with love.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The fact you recognise this Love is a considerable step forward.

          3. Love says:

            Thank you but I had no choice in the matter. My body/mind went topsy turvy on me. Trust me, if I had any control over it, I would have merrily skipped down the same old path and started the pattern once again with a new narc.

          4. karen1303 says:

            Hi Love, have you ever looked into complex post traumatic stress syndrome?
            I’m no expert but I feel it might be worth you researching and seeing if it fits what’s going on.

          5. Love says:

            Thanks Karen. I am seeing a therapist as well as an acupuncturist as well as doing yoga, dance, and occasional meditation, massage, and EFT, and eating healthy, and taking natural supplements. Lol I’m giving it my 200%. Of course, there is a lingering thought in the back of my mind that maybe I can just go back to my old ways, and not deal with this anymore. I wonder if that’s why some soldiers re-enlist … To go back into war mode and avoid the chaos of peace.

          6. 12345 says:

            Loving EFT!! It has helped me a lot. I hope it’s helping you too!

          7. Love says:

            Thank you 12345. I have just started doing it but feel the positive results. I know with any type of natural therapy, it takes time, commitment, and consistency.

          8. karen1303 says:

            Sorry, complex post traumatic stress DISORDER not syndrome

  36. 12345 says:

    I would think the narcissist wouldn’t push manipulation to the “it” calling game if they thought “it” wouldn’t put up with it. They’ve studied “it” long enough to know what their limits are. I would’ve stayed for this. I was at the point where I was so desperate for any kind of communication and having him follow me around calling me anything at all counted as communication. The worst part of this entry for me was him knowing I wanted him to make love to me and then withholding. That act alone became the only justification that he might love me. Mind you, making love to me was the equivalent of him mounting me and masturbating. I was simply another vessel to cum on or in. And of course being arm candy in social settings. That was the other so called affirmation. Yes, I would’ve succumbed to being called “it”.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      An honest and accurate comment 12345.

    2. 12345 says:

      Interestingly enough my favorite fantasy song even before final discard has been “gunpowder and lead”. He has become “it” and I’d love to act out that song. HG, do narcissists know that even super empaths are seething with anger below the surface? That they know they should be treated better but for whatever reason are so beaten down that they believe they don’t deserve better? I stayed furious below the surface but continually pushed it down so as not to incur more punishment.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Most will not recognise this about the SE. It is more an instinctive sensation that they are engaging with someone who has plenty of fuel but is also ‘feisty’ or ‘strong’ or ‘robust’ which serves as an attraction.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          That was stated to me repeatedly. You are very strong or youre such a strong woman. It is not of course the compliment we think it is. Now that you know, you can watch for the licking of the lips or the gleam in his eye when he says it.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Interestingly enough, my best friend’s former boyfriend several years back that was the worst relationship of her life. Turns out he was a lesser alcoholic. He once told me when we were out for dinner one night and JN had just begun turning the tables past golden period, “You are intimidating to men because you are no bullsh*t and so honest up front about everything. You put it all out there.” I was floored at the time he called me “intimidating” because to meet me, I don’t think that’s the impression I give. lol

    3. Patricia says:

      I’m very sorry. I really do understand finding yourself in a place of accepting the unacceptable. The total lack of subtlety here just really amazes me, but then again people asked me why I put up with the outrageous things my Narc did to me as well. I guess we all have our limits.

      1. 12345 says:

        Even after what I’ve allowed to happen to me I’ll catch myself watching news broadcasts about how some boyfriend has thrown acid in his girlfriends face and I think “how could she stay to that point….didn’t she see the signs?” So I get it. Nobody is more surprised at what we’ve put up with than ourselves.

    4. karen1303 says:

      You’ve just made me cry 12345.
      Please tell me you are now free?

      1. 12345 says:

        I am physically free but I’m not mentally free. I’m consumed with anger and self hatred for allowing it.

        1. karen1303 says:

          I hear you 12345. I feel the same although the more I learn the more I realise it was a game we could never win.
          I didn’t realise he was a narc until after my escape. If I had been educated during my time with him it would’ve ended a lot sooner.
          May I ask when you realised? Was it during or after? I’m also interested to know how far down the line you are in terms of time away from him?
          Of course, please feel free to ignore me if I’m asking questions that are too personal.
          We will get there you know 12345! I’m sure of it. Time, understanding and self compassion will get us there 😊

          1. 12345 says:

            I don’t mind answering but you will think much less of me when you read it. With this particular narc it started when I was 16 and ended when I was 22 when he discarded me. He is far older than I. It started again when I was 46. Devaluation began when I turned 50 with final discard in April of 2016. I was too young to know what he was the first time around. I knew he was evil the second time around but I really thought I was so uniquely special that he’d ultimately “choose” me. He did not. It wasn’t until finding HG that I realized to my horror just what he was and that not a single moment was real except the abuse and my stupidity. I was one year no contact last week. I was triggered by a photograph of an 18 year old me last weekend and sent him a very short passive aggressive email. I broke no contact which I greatly regret. I can’t unring that bell. I can only start over again armed with the knowledge that HG continues to provide as well as a ridiculous amount of therapy and merciful friends.

          2. Ms brown says:

            12345…. try to be gentle and go easy on yourself. i know, easier said than done, but please try

          3. karen1303 says:

            12345, I assure you I do not think less of you at all. To go a year without contact is a massive achievement. Some of the survivors I work with struggle to go a week. That’s normal. So please rather than put yourself down for contacting him how about you congratulate yourself for going a year? Seriously you are a strong lady even though your head is telling you differently. Please remember you are a survivor. You were abused 12345. Remember that. There isn’t a quick fix to healing and you are doing your best. Blips are blips. You now have it out of your system and now you know that no good came from contacting him. The positive spin is that you probably won’t be tempted to contact him again. You’ve scratched that itch 😊 Healing is a process, a blind process at that.
            You are doing really really well 12345. Onwards and upwards eh 😊

          4. 12345 says:

            You are an angel. Thank you for those words❀

    5. superxena says:

      Hello 12345,
      Interesting comment and I understand what you mean. But for how long would you cope with it…And of own is not always the case the narc knows how long /hard they push before he is being abandoned. Well that was my own experience…He pushed too hard and I left him. Perhaps this depends entirely on which type of empath we are talking about…But it is not always the case that they know how lhard they push..

      1. 12345 says:

        No I think you’re right xena. I don’t think they always know what the limit is but it’s worth the gamble to them. They probably think if they go too far they can always rely on a Hoover to get you back. Bravo that you had the strength to leave. All my dads were narcissists so dating narcs has always felt like going home for me.

        1. superxena says:

          Hello 12345! I agree with you about some of them relying on the hoovers to get you back. I think it also depends on which “school of narc” it is…seems that the upper schools who are aware of who they are know in advance that they are really building up just a”sand castle”… Not just for the empath but for them as well..they now that the “sand castle” eventually collapses..I was entangled as a intimate primary source with one of the upper schools..He knew what he was doing …and that the castle would collapse…And that is sad…very sad.
          Thank you for your support and kind words..yes I “escaped” him but I am not really over the fence yet. I had succeded to maintain no contact for 15 months but it has cost me ….a lot of pain and strengh.
          Tough for you to grow up in that environment…narcissists dads…When did you realise that dating narcs was NOT the “normal “frame? What is your experience of entanglements with narcs ( besides your dads)? If you feel like sharing with me/us here…

          1. 12345 says:

            Xena, 15 months is fantastic! You should be very proud of that. You’ll get over the fence. It took me a looooooong time to realize that every time I was dating a new narc i was really returning to one of my dads. I was constantly looking to rewrite the original story. Different therapists pointed it out to me throughout my life but I just wasn’t ready to hear it. I hear it now. I don’t think I’ve ever dated anyone that wasn’t a narc, honestly. Anytime someone normal approached I was too afraid of their kindness and willingness to really know me. My comfort zone for so long was being treated like used toilet paper. It’s all I knew. My biggest work now is self love which still sounds so cheesy to me. I didn’t believe that was the key at first but now I know it is. If I don’t know my worth then I’ll let others determine it and that never works out for me.

          2. superxena says:

            Thank you 12345! Although I have been feeling ,specially these past two days kind of a ” relapse”( if that how it is called in English?)
            It sounds very strong of you first to detect that your ” comfort zone” was not the normal frame! I am glad that you realised it…not an easy task..I can imagine how much work you are putting on yourself..and it does not sound ” cheesy”to me ( do not really know the meaning of “cheesy”.I looked it up and it is defined as “superficial”?) sounds rather deep and geniune to me .the best investment you can make on youself!!!

          3. 12345 says:

            Xena, is English a second language for you? If so, it is excellent! Cheesy means silly to me😊

          4. superxena says:

            Thank you 12345!!! I have another new word to add to my vocabulary…is it slang? Good to know when to use it… πŸ˜‰

        2. superxena says:

          Typo * strength *

    6. workrelatedok says:

      I posted on the FB site, but I also still excuse and in some cases justify horrendous abuse by the narcAllister to mentally hang onto what I now understand was an illusion. I’m in complex trauma therapy to deal with everything and am frequently actively suicidal when the ruminating o overpowers the therapy sessions. The man I loved more than my own life did that to me. I will likely die not understanding why.

  37. Karen says:

    Almighty God knows every single detail of what has happened. Every tear. Every pain. Every manipulation. The Father of Lies (Satan) literally lives in these people who are his children. God wants you to come to Him, invite Christ into your heart, and ask Him for help. Talk to Him about everything always. He will adopt you as His child. I have experienced miracles and other supernatural confirmations from God. Go to nondenominational churches where He will send people to help you. Almighty God continues to faithfully fight this war with me. My intuition is accurate because it is His Voice of Truth, “coincidences” are God communicating, and prayers answered with incredible detail have manifested. Most of you are in terrible pain. I know your pain. I survived the worst- Malignant Narcissistic Sociopath and sexual sadist. I am still fighting him over our 2 children. I am no longer afraid. My Father sits on the throne and I am a Daughter of The Most High God. You can be too if you ask. He will fight for you!!

    1. DJ says:

      If that works for you, love, you knock yourself out with your God talk πŸ™‚

      1. Karma says:

        🀣🀣🀣🀣 true to that!

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Oh really? I asked repeatedly as an innocent child and he basically told me to go fuck myself and stood idly by and watched me endure many more years of abuse. Now why do you think a loving God would forsake an innocent little girl in pain?
      If he sees every tear, every pain, and every manipulation then he is either an evil sadistic prick or a pathetic mirage for those too weak to see and deal with the truth.

  38. Patricia says:

    This is so gratuitously sadistic and I am wondering why she put up with the very first episode of this hostile degradation?

    1. karen1303 says:

      How strange. I just changed my name from Karen to Karen1303 yesterday.

  39. karen1303 says:

    “IT will put the lotion on”
    Silence of the Lambs quote.
    HG you are back to Hannibal Lector in my minds eye!
    You even used my name as the wrong name you called her.
    You mess with my head ‘H’annibal ‘G’lector.
    I’m sure I’ll sleep well tonight….

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