Save The Children



If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

17 thoughts on “Save The Children

  1. Invicta says:

    Hello, HG! Thank you for this post. I have been exactly as you said here since 2013. I think it worked. He lost interest in the children and they have been visibly healing. And no, I don’t say negative things about him even if they bring it up. He hasn’t seen the kids since over a year (his choice), and I’m very happy about it. I’m hoping he will stay away for a long time. He is probably busy gathering fuel from new sources. Thanks again.

    I’ve been reading some of your books and articles and although they described the horror I have survived for the past 4.5 years during my divorce, I must admit, I laughed hard at the funny way you describe things, especially when you talk about fuel. It is funny, but it is also sad and dark. I do recognized, only by divine intervention I have survived this narcissistic abuse and te-victimization by proxy. He hates me for it, and I no longer show any emotion to him.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are seizing the power and thank you for reading.

  2. Noname says:

    Being a son of Matrinarc yourself, you described the narcissistic parent’s attitude towards his/her children with an absolute exactness, Tudor. I gues, that we all, who had/has the nacrissistic parent/s, can relate to your description completely.

    It was absolutely confusing to deal with Narcissistic Parent’s Logic not knowing what it is.

    The most awful thing was the final REALIZATION, that you mean nothing to your Parent as a person, that you are the inanimated THING to him/her. We were worthless. We didn’t EXIST. To his/her/them. To world.

    That final realization was a crucial point for all of us and we all had to make our crucial life decision (in most cases we don’t remember that moment) – how to prove our EXISTENCE to ourselves and world.

    Some of us gave up completely.

    Some of us chose to be the Narcissists and Co-Dependents and get the confirmation of our existence using external sources. “They need us, we exist. They ignore us, we don’t exist”.

    Some of us chose to get the confirmation of our existence using internal sources – self-acceptance.

    Anyway, we, the Narcissists’ children, had always been different from Normals’ children, because we all had to do what the normal children didn’t need to do at all – to establish our own existence. We had to fight with ourselves for ourselves. Many of us didn’t survive that self-war and that’s our sad truth…

  3. Angela G says:

    I am currently 5 months pregnant with an Elite Greater’s child. I have gone completely no contact on him. Do you believe he will just walk away after some time?

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. CUSoon says:

      I’m due any day now with my ex NARC (was impregnated)… went no contact while 5 months pregnant after finding the proof of his cheating (moved on immediately to his “new” source of supply). Recently texted me trying to provoke me by asking: when is the baby due. I’m sure he will never go away and will do everything to keep in touch – this way or the other… Stay strong and build your own life the best you can. An defo, do not count and/or wait for his support – this does not exist. You are on your own but this is way better than being with someone so unhealthy and abusive. Lots of love, Angela!

  4. Petals says:

    Oh, this post brings back memories (not the good kind). My mother TRIED to forcibly make us go No Contact with my father. It didn’t work out that way, primarily because of my doing.

    I still remember what she said when I informed her that we WOULD be going to see my father…because if we weren’t, evidence of her affair would be exposed to the world, ruining her precious spotless reputation forever. (I was 17 at the time. If she wanted to “protect” me, she was a tad late. Now she could just do me a favor and step off.)

    She didn’t yell. She didn’t cry. Her voice was a monotone as she said “You’re turning into quite the little creature.” It took everything I had not to flip the bird at the very least. Actually what I wanted was to throttle her.

    I didn’t do either of those things. I calmed myself down by reminding myself that I’d already won, and she was only saying that because she knew she’d lost.

    Still, it did make the golden glow of my victory lose some of it’s luster. That moment was tainted and always will be. It’s will never be a memory I can smile on in satisfaction.

    I won, but it was a Pyrrhic victory.

    1. Petals says:

      It’s so funny…because that decision, that I was a piece of trash and a creature in her eyes, was the final push that made me go to my father instead. HE wouldn’t call me those things (at the moment). He would shower me with praise for my ingenuity. At the moment, I was everybody’s (including his entire extended family and circle of friends) hero. And if she thought me a little creature, then a creature I would be.

      So great job protecting me, Mom. Great job. I’m almost actually impressed that anyone could fail that completely at doing what they set out to do.

      Would things have turned out differently if she had exercised some of her empathetic compassion instead? Or if she had stepped in earlier, at any time during the 17 years that she had to do so?

      On different days I have different answers.

  5. Yolo says:

    Excellent…Dr. Phil what did you do with HG? 👏👏

  6. Just Me says:

    I knew he hated me but thought he loved the kids. My heart could not accept anything less. Truth is, he was jealous of the kids. Jealous of my relationship with them. Jealous because I love my children unconditionally… the kind of love he longed for, had, and lost. He is now punishing me through the children but my eyes are open to the dangerous and fucked up games of his.

    HG, your words are my truth, light, and reality. I find strength here each day and will continue to battle until both me and the children reach dry ground. As for the article, I am really trying to not engage with him but it is a hellish storm brewing.

  7. Anm says:

    This article saved my sanity! I had mediation for custody of my daughter last April. I went in and requested all of these points, to have a friend do exchanges if I wished, to have all communication done via email (unless and emergency), etc.
    The Narcissist was furious, as he wanted to remain in constant contact, and face to face interaction. Even the court appointed Mediator couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t wish to “co-parent” with the Narcissist. I stood my ground and it was the best descision. I also did a private consultation with HG about whether or not going for child support would be a good idea, and how to go about doing that. I had to deal with a lot of backlash from the Narcissist, and deal with my own emotional stuff. But here and there, I go back to this article to stay focused on my mission : To Save My Kids

  8. Diva says:

    I have one child whom can only be an empath and one who has some narc traits…..the empath child has had no end of issues at school relating to bullying……the child with the apparent higher narc traits has never once had any such issue…..Were you ever bullied at school HG????…..Can you relate to what I have posted??? Is there any merit to what I am witnessing???? Although I understand if you do not wish to answer that very personal question……Diva

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No I wasn’t.

  9. J says:

    Fellow ACON here. I think you are spot on, HG, as to the advice about keeping the fuel provision very low and learning the N’s game so as to strip it of its fuel. However, I have to disagree as to what the children are told about the N parent. I think they need to be gently led to understand that “something is wrong” with Mommy or Daddy (within the parameters of their age, maturity, development etc.) I think this can be done without outright saying, “Dad is evil” and, I think you’re right, it should be presented more subtly via the contrast between the light (shown by non-N parent) and dark (displayed by the N). However, I think not actively (if subtly) teaching the child is very dangerous and could easily have the effect of normalizing N behavior, and giving the N a chance to present him/herself as “misunderstood” or “victimized” by the non-N spouse and draw the child back in. (Happened to 2 of my siblings)
    On another note, I am curious about your thoughts about a non-N parent going Supernova, painfully wounding the N and thereby massively incentivizing the N to avoid the children. My Mom did it sometimes… I wish she had just left him instead, but at least he mostly avoided us. Is the Super Empath just too rare for this to be good general advice? Can a standard empath learn the N game well enough to Supernova?

  10. Narcsboreme says:

    Thank you for this Mr Tudor. I really wish I had read this 20 years ago, before I had even heard of NPD. It may have saved me and especially my son a huge amount of heartache. My sons father I suspect was a narcissist and every single one of your sentences can be applied to my situation. I’m even now starting to think children at school should be schooled in how to spot and deal with a narcissist. If I had known then what I know now my sons life would be much happier and settled. On a positive note, we survived, and my son and I have a bond, borne of sheer narcissistic adversity no one will break. His father has lost something very precious.

  11. Theresa says:

    This one is awesome! Thank you. My 9 year old recently started asking for access to court records because her dad has told her I’m lying about how custody was decided by a GAL when she was 3 months old(in America it’s an attorney that only represents the child.) They have a stupid amount of power and in my case did a wonderful job of seeing things 10 years in advance and covering it for me. We were in court for my divorce to my older two kids dad and the proceedings were delayed until I had the youngest so custody could be established as no my husband’s.

    The GAL gave me full custody with supervised visitation and also involved the option of a supervised drop off center so I didn’t have to be part of the visits. He said “You are going to need this and I don’t want you to have to go back to court when you do.”

    This article is a fantastic break down of why I handled things in such a controlled way during my pregnancy and the court case.

    To her dad it meant he could say I planned all of this. In reality I just knew I wanted legal backing in case all hell broke loose. The GAL was willing to back me up because he knew I wouldn’t let my emotions get in the way of keeping her safe if I had the legal tools.

    And I haven’t. And she’s been honest while in therapy that’s she’s really angry with me. So the therapist reccomended I get her access to the police reports for domestic violence and custody agreement. That her dad also signed, because he was so sure I would never use it.

    Well. He turned out to be very very wrong.

    Anyway. Thanks again for this write up. This was probably one of your most altruistic so for. Not that I want to give you props for being nice.

    PS I haven’t responded to anything from my last comment because I don’t really care and it amused the everloving bejesus out of me that you were defended so intensely. That was interesting to watch. It wasn’t my goal but ya know, sometimes you get great information from accidents.

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