Poll – What Part of the Narcissist’s Behaviour Has Hurt You The Most?


Entanglement with our kind hurts.

Be it social, business, familial and most of all romantic, there will always be pain involved.

Some pain occurs during the engagement, other times it comes with knowledge thereafter. The hurt is inevitable.

Were you hurt because you realised that this person you loved with everything you had actually did not love you? Do you still struggle to accept that? Perhaps it is the fact that the narcissist doesn’t actually love your children – the complete innocents? Then again, it might be because you cannot grasp how someone who appeared to be so wonderful could turn into that hate-filled monster that hit you, tormented you and then left without saying a good bye?

Which ever it was, or if it was more than one, do choose more than one before you cast your vote and as ever, do expand in the comments section on your experiences.

Thank you for participating.

What element of the narcissist's behaviour has hurt you the most?

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333 thoughts on “Poll – What Part of the Narcissist’s Behaviour Has Hurt You The Most?

  1. Fizza says:

    The most hurtful for me is that he could never see the problems he is creating for himself.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      FIZZA—or that he can see. :/

  2. Debs says:

    What hurt the most was knowing I was getting divorced for him and still carrying on the future faking – right up to the day of my divorce. Then devaluation started …………..what an absolute TWAT !
    He also had the cheek to try and use me against myself by saying I would hurt him, afterall I left one husband for him! (errrrrm! yeah after 25 years you fucker!), Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  3. Leolita says:

    What hurts the most is knowing that he actually was trying and wanting to destroy me, break me, ruin me, with everything he did, and that all the pain I have suffered was all staged and framed for me to self destruct, which I did, in so many ways during five years with him.

    I cant even recall any feelings I have had for him, they all disappeared two months ago (when he had just ghosted on me again) and in my despair I found this blog and gained the insight and information needed to wake up and realize what I was dealing with. Thank you so much for empowering me, HG. 👌😊 I am working on my emotional thinking, and this is helping me gain more inner peace, I do not debate everything in my mind all day like I used to.

    Think I have become more «cynical» after this, feels like I have lost some sort of virginity

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  4. Nuit Étoilée says:


    Why do you want to know, HG??

    Thank you everyone for sharing.. this community is incredible.

  5. Just Me says:

    Insatiable Learner,

    Constant fight or flight mode, or waiting for the next shoe to drop, raises hell with your health as well. I hope you are taking care of your self. I believe Magnesium and Zinc have helped me the most. My cortisol was high, thyroid low, I had developed numbness of the face, began slurring my speech, dizziness, insomnia, and more shit than I like to admit. All balancing and fading post escape. Peace and prayers to you as well.

    1. Insatiable Learner says:

      Thank you so much, JustMe. I appreciate your concern and advice. I am doing much better. Happy to hear your health is improving. Hugs

    2. Insatiable Learner & Just Me,
      I was going to reply to your comment earlier on still feeling tension, even during the good times. It was part of the programming, The more you are on edge, the more they have control.

      My narc died at home. I called our(mine now) son over right away. When he came and looked at the body, I could see his whole body visibly relax as he processed that there would be no more abuse from his father. His face softened, and his shoulders loosing their tension was quite obvious. I realized watching him, my body had done the same when I realized he had drawn his last breath and would not be taking another.
      Within a couple of days all manner of physical problems abated. Sleeping through the night was no longer a problem, no waking during the night in a panic.
      No more constant taking of pain meds (over the counter) for muscle aches and arthritis.Even allergies have lessened.

      The good times can be wonderful, but once you have seen the monster behind the mask, it is hard to unsee, so you are waiting for the “other shoe to drop” lessening any enjoyment you might have had, otherwise.

      I got the blessing of death, so my cessation of these body symptoms was nearly instantaneous.

      Kill your narcs in your heart and mind, and you will start to feel better and lose the tension they implant in you.

      I recommend very highly the book Exorcism, if you havn’t already read it.

      1. K says:

        The narcissistic relationship has ended for you and your son. I slept much better after my MMRN was gone.

    3. BlueOcean says:

      = PTSD @Just Me

  6. Antifragile says:

    1. The moment that I can’t change anything about him – I’ve mistaken about who he is and powerless with all my knowledge to help his personal hell. No pasaran.
    2. He is a liar. That he wasn’t sincere about what’s going on indeed and what he wants; who he is and what he likes. Have done some things, then lied he done none. Lied about me to third people. And said them things about me that never said to me openly.

    The person I loved most, was never existent.

    Indeed, I don’t know what was sincere – what he said to them, what he said to me, or he believed both things or none of that things . Communicating with mirage.

    3. The biggest pain he put me through was silence. Silence after heaven.

    But basically that hurt was nothing comparing to what he gave me unconsciously. And if he wasn’t a liar, what whould then be able to put me to understanding that he’s unusual boy and gain this knowledge about the narcissism. I’m grateful for this experience too.

  7. Just Me says:

    Insatiable Learner,

    Yes. Thank you for bringing this up… I thought I was alone. I was with him for decades and never felt at ease. I was always being tested, made to feel guilty, made to feel fearful, or being punished… even in the “good” times.

    To answer the poll question in one word, I say… betrayal. He betrayed me and I betrayed myself.

    1. Insatiable Learner says:

      Thank you, JustMe! I appreciate your validating comments! That’s exactly it – never feeling at ease, never believing the “good” will stay, constantly waiting for things to go wrong, again. Sending positive thoughts and prayers your way. Very best to you!

      1. Catherine says:

        That goes for me too. Always on the edge, tiptoeing around, trying to assess and avoid situations where it all could go wrong, never being successful at it. So even if we just had a normal, good day together, I was exhausted by the end of it, always having that feeling of a knot in the stomach even though I felt some kind of mixed relief at things turning out ok. I still can’t believe all the energy I wasted on this and on trying to find logical explanations and excuses for his behaviour.

  8. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    The narcissist tried to make someone that I wasn’t.

    He never meant any of it.

    1. Bekah B says:

      I like your username, Harleen.. Funny little tidbit: my narc recently saw the movie Suicide Squad in the past few months (I have still yet to see it). And he hit me with the whole, “desire becomes surrender, surrender becomes power” premise, just as the Joker did Harley Quinn in that movie.. And in the last few months of our relationship, he referred to me as Harley.. Said I was the most perfect candidate for Harley (because of course he had multiple other women to try this with as well).. I identified with the Harleen Quinzel/Harley Quinn character, just for a short time.. I came to realize the desire within me to be with him had been slaughtered by his horrendous actions and treatments of me.. And of course this caused our demise.. But I just thought I’d throw out there that my narc really doesn’t have a complete understanding of who he is, but he is sure of what he wants.. And that is complete power and control..

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        Where are you from?

        I learned a lot from these crazy ass men. In some twisted way at this moment I’m grateful for the experience because I walked away with a much better understanding of myself.

    2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

      Hey Bekah!

      They all want a Harley lol 😂. She still represents a big piece of my personality. It’s not really just the joker aspect… it’s more her… who she is … her quirks lol. What is your narc story?

      1. Bekah B says:

        Hey There.. I’m from a small town here in South Carolina, USA.. Somehow or another, these men recognize their desires in movies and other entertainment platforms and try to cultivate real life people to mimic the characters in the movies and other stuff.. Smh.. But my narc story? Ahh.. Where do I begin? I’ve known him for 11 years now.. We went to high school together and casually talked during that time as friends.. Fast forward to about six years ago: we began a once in a while sexual relationship.. He had a gf that he claimed had cheated on him, so he felt he had a right to branch out since they were no longer committed the right way because of her.. (later on I would come to find that was all BS).. We were never steady throughout years 2010-2015, and I was okay with that because he wasn’t mine.. We really tightened up our thing in 2013, though, when he was stationed in Afghanistan.. We messaged each other all the time on FB.. This was my virtual, pre-golden period.. After he came back to the States, he resumed his relationship with his gf and I basically didn’t hear from him except for maybe twice in years 2013 and 2014..

        They eventually broke up and he came back to me to have like a 3 week relationship in March and April of 2015 before he just up and left with no explanation.. Like he literally left our home town.. He didn’t return until Aug. 2015 and was at first hesitant in explaining where he had been for the past 4 months.. (I would come to find out two months later that he had left our home town to move into a house he paid for with his military benefits in the state capital.. WITH ANOTHER WOMAN).. Anyway, when he returned in August of 2015, I had my “golden period”.. He said he was here to stay and that he realized I was the love of his life.. He said our relationship would be the last he would ever have because we were gonna make it.. We had lovely evenings spent at my house during this time, just up all night talking about life.. He used to come up to my job and surprise me with lunch and other little things that he knew were my favorites.. We went to the beach together one Sunday morning, which was wonderfully romantic.. Things were just great.. My narc is a silly guy, so he always made me laugh, even throughout these hard times that I didn’t know were yet come.. And it all began in the following month: September 2015.. I found out I was pregnant.. He wanted me to be rid of the baby and made that clear in the beginning, through only select words, though.. After putting me through a terrible silent treatment for like 3 weeks, I told him I decided to keep the baby and again, I didn’t hear from him for 9 days.. (Later on I would come to find out he went back to live with the woman in our state capital).. Towards the end of my first trimester, he came back around and seemed like he started to accept my pregnancy.. He went with me to my doctor appointment to find out what we were having and it was a little girl!! He was so excited.. He did really good, being there for me (and my son from a previous relationship), until he met some bombshell in February 2016.. And he was basically absent until I had to give birth in May.. All of a sudden, in the hospital and after we went home (my house), he said we were about to handle this the right way.. We were going to be together, take care of our baby and live as a family.. But by the end of May, he strayed again, and I didn’t really hear from him except for a few select occasions in June, July, August and September..

        However, back in May 2016, I started to find little things out about him.. He had an old phone he left at my house and I looked through it and found out he had MULTIPLE other relationships with women all over the state and that he lied to them about very basic things.. Where we went to school.. (He never went to college, but told them he graduated and was now working on his Masters), the fact that he even had a job (he was unemployed).. That his home town was in Massachusetts and he was visiting in South Carolina.. He lied to some female, telling her he was demisexual (the irony in that is that I AM DEMISEXUAL.. I can only sleep with someone I am emotionally connected to).. He had all kinds of sexual images and videos throughout this phone, to the point I was sickened.. From that moment forward, in my mind, I knew I was dealing with a fraud.. But my heart wouldn’t let him go.. Throughout this time, I maintained who I was supposed to be to my narc.. I was loving, faithful, and helpful in every way.. I was mentally and emotionally supportive.. And DEFINITELY financially supportive, because he couldn’t keep a job for more than 3 months.. He didn’t own a car at the time, so I would let him drive mine from time to time.. I was just always there.. I was never mean.. Never nagging.. Or even negative.. He is hypersensitive, so I was always mindful of the things I said and how I spoke.. The worst of our relationship didn’t come until this year in 2017.. When I didn’t agree to co-sign for a car he purchased while he had a one month employment stint at a car dealership, he employed his infamous silent treatment towards me and got his former female coworker to give him the money for a down payment on it.. He secured the car and effectively drove out of my life.. He hooked up with another girl he met at a bar and plastered her and him all over FB as in a relationship.. This is when he started to change, towards me.. (DISCARD) If he wasn’t giving me silent treatments, any other time we had a spat, he was never verbally abusive or disrespectful, just silent.. That’s mainly in part because we didn’t have spats often because I was conditioned to finding something out about what he had done and dealing with it on my own.. I never confronted him about the knowledge I had of him and his behaviors.. But this time, he was rude.. Very mean.. Very dismissive and cold.. I would cry in his presence, and he would just stare blankly and ask to go home.. One night we had a huge argument on the phone and I blew up on him and hung up.. He proceeded to text me 61 msgs, back to back, explaining he had a problem because I tell him about the things that he does wrong and how he is and it makes him angry because according to him, nobody is supposed to know him, but I do.. He apologized for hurting me but explained he felt he never needed to show me any more, as far as affection and attention because I made him feel the bare minimum that he did and just who he was as a person was perfect.. (I know I did: I loved him, flaws and all)..

        Shortly after this in April, we traveled to NYC for a musical performance of his.. It was me, him, and his guy friend in a rental car I provided.. Long story short, he and his guy friend left me at the hotel the day of the performance, so I missed it.. My phone had broken and there was no way for me to communicate with him or his friend.. By the time I got back to the parking garage, I found out they left.. I had to buy a last min train ticket to get back home.. Even after that horrible experience, in the same month of April, his car was threatening to be repossessed and he begged me to make a payment.. I did.. He promised to pay me back and showed me the proof.. He changed the direct deposit info for his military pay to my bank account information.. But he was deceitful.. He probably changed it long enough to take a screenshot of it and show me and then changed it right back.. Because I never received any direct deposit to my account.. His mother got admitted to the ICU in May of this year and I went to go visit her (he wasnt there).. When his mother told him, he was angry and sent rude text messages to my phone, saying it was disrespectful for me to intrude on his family like that.. That was it for me.. I promptly avoided contact with him after that.. He blocked me on FB and carried on in life.. His car eventually got repossessed and he was assigned to another military mission, this time in Italy.. This is where he was from July through Sept.. He contacted me frequently, using our daughter as the conversation piece initially.. Then, he changed the subject and started apologizing for how he treated me.. Towards the end of his mission, he brought up the whole Joker & Harley Quinn premise and stated he wanted a relationship like this with me.. I tell you, him being over in Italy really intensified his narcissism and thoughts of grandeur.. I really didn’t expect anything of him though and just let him talk.. But when he got back to the States, he was very pursuant of me.. He re-idealized me and literally effected a preventative Grand Hoover earlier last month when he arrived at my doorstep with a lot of clothes packed in a duffel bag, saying he wanted to come home to me.. We tried to work it out for a couple of weeks, but 23 days ago, I found out he got the girl he hooked up with during my discard pregnant.. And she’s due in June of next year.. I exposed him 20 days ago in the middle of the night when he was getting in her car to go be with her for the night.. Hours before this, he told me he was gonna stay with his mother for the night because she was ill.. But I caught him with this girl, like 1 o’clock in the morning.. In my hand, I had a bag with the rest of the things he left at my house.. I didn’t need to say anything about the fact that he lied.. It was clear.. I was calm.. I just handed him his things and told him I know that she’s pregnant.. And I drove off.. I haven’t communicated with him since.. He hasn’t reached out to me.. I had to ask HG what he thinks just happened.. Lol.. This is my escape, but my narc doesn’t know it yet because he has his supplies in place.. But I will continue with my No Contact journey.. I really am hurting, day in and day out.. It hurts that he got someone else pregnant and will be there for her and their child, but not me & his.. But there’s nothing I can do..

        1. jenna says:


          Your story is so sad 😢

          He sounds awful. Why did u allow him back in ur life when he left u stranded in nyc? I know the answer is not easy. U have a child with him too which makes it difficult. I hope the v best for u and ur sweet daughter. I am so glad u escaped him.

        2. Windstorm2 says:

          Bekah B
          Glad you are no contact with him. I dont think you have to worry about him being there for this other woman and child. He won’t be there for them any more than he is there for you. Good luck to you and glad your here on the blog!

      2. Bekah B says:

        *Jenna & Windstorm2*

        That is a good question, Jenna.. I have absolutely no idea why I still communicated with him after being stranded in NYC.. I mean, I gave it a rest for like 2 weeks afterwards, but then he called me and literally acted like nothing happened.. He never apologized for that act and to this day says it was his guy friend’s fault.. Ha! Narcs shift the blame even on their closest friends.. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we have a daughter together, though, and I felt obligated to respond to him, just in case he wanted to check up on her, you know? But now knowing that he has another child on the way with another woman and how easy it is for that to happen, I no longer feel special and unique to him.. I agree with you, Windstorm2, that he probably isn’t going to be here for this woman and their kid either.. I mean, he barely knows her.. They’ve known each other less than a year, yet she feels he is the love of her life and is asking for them to be married so it won’t look so bad on her being pregnant.. I mean, she is really oblivious as to the type of person she is dealing with.. But anyway, again, seeing how easy it is for him to sow his oats and reproduce, I no longer feel unique and worth anything of substance to him and that is why I decided to just let it all go.. This is day 22 of No Contact, the longest I haven’t communicated with him since 2015.. But I intend to carry on with it full speed ahead.. Thank you all.. I’m glad to be here on the forum too..

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi bekah,

          Ty for ur reply. I am v happy u found this site. It is the best place to be if u have suffered npd abuse.

          So he did give u some reason for leaving nyc – he blamed it on his friend. We become misled easily. I would have believed him too, probably. Of course since u have a daughter, that makes it even more difficult to leave because u want the best for her.

          But try to remember that him not being around may be better for her becoz i have read v sad stories here abt pple w narc parents. Either they end up as narcs too, or they have had an abusive childhood, or they have been ridiculed and felt worthless as a child. Now u can b confident that ur child will not be subject to that. If he wants to see her, then that is a different story, but u wud still be the main caregiver, so hopefully u can counter any of his negative behavior with alot of love and understanding.

          I am very happy to hear u have made it to day 22 of nc. It is more difficult at the beginning imo. Try to stay strong. We r here for u! 🌹

      3. Bekah B says:

        Thanks so much, Jenna.. I appreciate your kind words and I am, indeed, trying to stay strong.. Although I have not reached out to him, my 22 day straight NC plan was broken last week when, per chance, my narc approached me at a gas station while I was putting air in my tire.. I was dumbfounded about the fact that he literally appeared out of the shadows.. He asked to help me with what I was doing and I let him.. We didn’t converse though, other than that, and the whole encounter was strange.. Mainly because after my tire was finished getting taken care of, I got back in my car to drive away, but it wouldn’t start.. It is like he drained the power from my life, of course, but in that tangible moment, also my car.. It was so symbolic of the fact that I am trying to be rid of him…to stay away from him, but he will always be there when I least expect it, appearing to be genuine and helpful, but eventually leaving me in a situation where I cannot escape.. Ever since then, I have been feeling down, but I continue to read these articles as well as other articles about healing from narcissistic abuse..

        My narc is so single-minded, I highly doubt he will make any vigorous effort to be in my daughter’s life.. And I won’t press it.. I’m just going to give her all of the love and attention I can rightfully so as her mother and that she is due as my daughter..

  9. H. says:

    I was aware of all of his shortcomings, but throughout all the hell I endured, I thought without a doubt that he loved me, and at some point, he would be able to function in a normal relationship.

    Then I found out he had been cheating for the entire time or our 5 year relationship. By this time, i was pretty fed up with him, but when truth collided with the fantasy of who he was in my head..it was mind blowing. Literally.

    Thankfully, I had found this blog and it helped me understand what the hell was going on in my head.

  10. Dickforlong says:

    2 things made me crazy… (Or maybe I should say crazier)

    His inconsistency…. Don’t be a part time asshole – commit for gods sake.

    And being ignored. His silent treatments were the worst. And when he did the absent silent treatments he didn’t just hole up with his fat insurance whore…. No no. He left the freaking country.

    I truly inspired him… To keep his passport current.

  11. Overthinker says:

    What hurts me the most is what a dumb fuck I am

    1. Overthinker,
      That’s how I felt at first. Then it became anger that he killed my trust. You were a target, not a dumb fuck.
      If you were shot by an assassin you didn’t see coming, would you consider yourself a dumb fuck? I hope not.
      Keep learning so you can protect yourself going forward.You can see from the stories we share here,it happens to other people.
      Your narc is the dumb fuck, not you.

    2. Bubbles says:

      Dear Overthinker …. no you are not. !!!! You are absolutely wonderful. That’s what they love about us .. we have everything they want.
      You got hoodwinked, like we all did! They are masters at it!
      You’re a beautiful person, don’t you ever forget that!
      We have to stop analysing every little detail, they are not worth the energy. Please focus on yourself and get involved in things you enjoy.
      Youre a good person and by no means dumb, will you please eradicate that thought.?

    3. DebbieWolf says:


      You are not a dumb fuck.
      You are definitely over thinking that!
      Do not go there..you are far from dumb and that is one reason you were targeted.
      You stand out and for many many qualities that shine out from you.
      Do not buckle under the weight of untruths.
      Shake that off my friend..You are intelligent and decent and valuable…and so much more.
      Remember you.
      Bring yourself forward.
      Keep at it.💪
      Believe this…believe me.💖

      I love your name btw..( my father used to call me over thinker. I had a lovely relationship with my dad..the best.).

    4. Overthinker says:

      Thank.you Persephoneascending,Bubbles, and DebbieWolf.

    5. K says:

      Don’t beat yourself up too much over it, I feel the same. What a fool I was!

    6. gabbanzobean says:

      Me too, Overthinker. Me too. 🙁

      1. Overthinker says:

        Hopefully someday well both be on our honeymoon with a gorgeous handsome physisict/rocket scientist and part time rock star sipping drinks in our size two bikinis with rings as big as tennis balls on our hands and well see both our narcs shuffling onto the beach pushing a walker completely bald with a gut as big as a nine months pregnant with triplets woman and we can both have a good laugh lol

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That will never happen until you get your emotional thinking under control.

          1. Overthinker says:

            I don’t know about gabs but I haven’t worn a size two since the Clinton administration anyway lol

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            The last time I wore a size 2, I was 2.

          3. K says:

            Me, too! Ha ha ha ha. Thanks for the laugh.

          4. Windstorm2 says:

            You’re welcome. I remember how shocked I was years ago when my then teenage daughter explained to me that there were women’s sizes under 10! I didn’t believe her. We had to go to the mall and her show me.

          5. K says:

            Thanks again! I just got another laugh from you. Your daughter is a hoot!

          6. Overthinker says:


          7. Jenna says:

            Windstorm and kim,

            Lol on size 2 comments! Pls don’t worry abt not being a size 2. Size 2 is unapealling imo. What do u think?

            Hg, do u like size 2’s? I mean, if there were 2 women generating the same fuel levels, but one is size 2, and the other is size 8, which one would u choose? (Assuming they have the same residual benefits and character traits too).

          8. HG Tudor says:

            I would have both.

          9. Overthinker says:

            Of course you would lol and their sisters too lol well I know I’m out of the running anyway I suspect you gather fuel supplies from strictly the upper crust members of society and I’m strictly lower crust haha some days I look at my bank account and realize I’m not just lower crust I’m the crumbs that fall of the lower crusts bread

          10. jenna says:

            Hi kim,

            U r not ‘lower crust’ at all. U stated that u had a financial setback recently. I’m sure you’ll get it back! And it’s ur heart that matters. Ur heart seems v pure. 🌹

          11. Overthinker says:

            Thank u Jenna I mean from a purely financial standing I was raised in a housing project.it doesn’t bother me at all to be poor to tell u the truth.and thanks for saying my heart is pure.unfortunately yes it is even the dumb narc said constantly I know your a good person in your deep.I would love to get rid of some of my pureness sometimes but I am what I am. The comment about hg came from when I commented on one of his YouTube videos saying he should date a gas station attendant due to his need for fuel and he said she wouldn’t have the relevant class traits lol.I don’t think being poor makes me low class and I’m fine with it lol

          12. HG Tudor says:

            You misunderstand. It is not a comment about being high or low class, but rather satisfaction of the class traits as per Sitting Target.

          13. Overthinker says:

            Lol somehow I knew I was gonna get that one wrong lol more reading for me haha

          14. jenna says:

            Oh true, class traits have nothing to do with finances. I read ‘sitting target’. It was v informative.

          15. jenna says:


            Regarding gas station comment, lol!

            I was just worried when u said that u r ‘lower crust’. Frm ur demeanour and ur caring attitude, u r v high class, and that’s what matters.

            When u had the pic of urself in a muslim head scarf, i realized how accomodating u were for ur ex. He sure knew how to choose u correctly – someone who will persevere and someone w a pure heart. I hope he knows what he lost. He never deserved u.

          16. K says:

            I have it on good authority that HG hires empaths so the potential to be a minion exists, thus, securing a position on his fuel matrix is a possibility, along with an elongated golden period.

          17. Overthinker says:

            Lol no thank you HGS the bomb as long as he’s far away from me. I cannot provide fuel on a regular basis to little lord Fauntleroy. The desire to strangle him would come up too often.I’m nobody’s minion .

          18. Star says:

            Lol..called it!! of course you would HG. Haha

          19. Jenna says:

            “I would have both.”

            U have quite the appetite! Er… for fuel!

          20. K says:

            Your efficiency and pragmatism is admirable.

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        I wish I was a Size 2. I was a Size 14 and I lost 50 lbs. Became a Size 8/10 and I still feel fat as all fucking hell. I would ask HG if he likes thin, average or bigger women but I know he will just say it is all about the biggest fuel not the biggest breasts. Ironically my bra cup size did not get smaller after my weight loss. LOL.

        1. Overthinker says:

          U look like a tiny petite girl with huge beautiful eyes. My advice to you since I suspect your at least a decade or more younger than me. Put all your effort into finding a new man there’s men that will kill to be with you but u can’t see it now. Don’t waste your youth please. Its not worth it .you need to.pretend he’s dead.hell kill him if u have to lol

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The distraction of a new romantic interest will assist so long as this person is not a narcissist. The risk you face is that you are not getting your emotional thinking under control and therefore you could readily be conned into engaging with another narcissist.

          2. gabbanzobean says:

            I wish I was petite! LOL. I do not think 5’5 and 153 is by any means petite but as I said I used to be almost 200 lbs before I lost weight! Thank you for the eyes compliment…you are not the first to say that. Yeah my narc said it all the time but so have other people so at least there’s that. I am not young. I am 38 but people think I am 28 so I will take it. Most of my close friends are 4-5 years younger than me anyway so it is easier for me to say I am 33 or some shit like that. LOL.

          3. Overthinker says:


        2. K says:

          You are beautiful just the way you are. After I read here about how the new supply could be unattractive or skanky, I felt so much better. Besides, there was no way I could compete with a “Twink” who was trying to grow a top knot.

        3. jenna says:

          I like size 8/10. I feel it is a lovely size! Pls don’t feel ‘fat’.

          U stated: “I would ask HG if he likes thin, average or bigger women but I know he will just say it is all about the biggest fuel… ”

          Lol! Lol! Lol!

      3. gabbanzobean says:

        And re: deleting the number. You make it sound so easy. It’s not that easy.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes it is you are just making excuses and giving in to your emotional thinking.

          Go into your contacts, select the contact, hit delete. It is done.

          You do it or ask someone to do it for you. Either way it must be done and it is a straightforward act.

      4. gabbanzobean says:

        I love your use of vocabulary words. You sound like my cerebral narc. I loved his vocabulary. It hurts thinking back to him like that but I am glad that I can at least be reminded of some of the positives I liked elsewhere….do you know what I mean?

        1. K says:

          Thank you, Gabs!
          I know exactly what you mean, and I remember when you wrote about your mid-ranger’s use of vocab words. That will be a bit of ever presence for you and will take some time to get over. Those fond memories can evoke such sadness and loss. Once you get better, those memories become much easier to revisit and manage. Without realizing it, you let go of them. HG’s logic is magic.

      5. gabbanzobean says:

        Ahhh the distraction of another romantic interest….I was going to reply to that comment last night but I did not get a chance. And I am at work now and distracted as all hell so I figured better later than never to reply….

        I am sure I am not alone here when I say I find myself comparing everyone I meet to Mr piano recital fake churchy McChurch. Romantic interest or even non romantic. Comparing him to everyone. For example I can’t see the sense of humor. Where are the nice large vocabulary words? I have always had a thing for guys with longer hair (he chopped his off to spite me, but I still found his new look to be nice anyway)….where is the long hair on that guy? Pssshttt. It is so not fair that I am probably glossing over normal people who are not asshole dickfaces. But yeah just sharing my “emotional thinking” today.

        Anyway, that aside I would love the distraction should one arise. Who said it here? The best way to get over someone is to get under someone else?

        I have only been intimate with 2 people in my entire 38 years on this planet. Compared to most that is pretty sad. Maybe I should start whoring it up. “Surely you must be aware, Gabrielle, that you can have sex with someone and not love them?” …. Gee, Piano recital that is why I have only allowed 2 people to ever become close enough to me in a sexual manner. Maybe I am getting this all wrong. Maybe I should start whoring it up. I am not saying I am going to go out and fuck anything that moves like he does (to “express my affection” lol…)…But yeah maybe getting that number up to 4 or 5 would do me some good. And distract me.

        1. Jenna says:


          Let me ask u this. Did u tell mr. Mcchurch that u had only been intimate with one b4 him? I am assuming yes? If so, he probably found u quite irresistible due to a)more fuel, becoz u r not used to having alot of sex, and b) this is gonna b graphic but needs to be said – a ‘tighter’ emissions area for him. Some jerks care abt that.

  12. narc affair says:

    Another great poll. I find these polls really get me thinking about the dynamics in my narc relationship and reading others situations has helped not feel so alone in this.
    Narcissism can hurt like hell! I remember times my narc hurt me so deeply i was coiled in a fetal position on my bed as if i were physically punched in the stomach. Emotional pain can be just as painful as physical and it leaves scars just the same.
    I was gaslite into not being able to call him out on the things hed done yet we both knew full well he did them and he was the ever loving partner who understood and wanted to “help” me with my trust issues. He sure helped make me even more leary of people and their motives.
    I chose he could be so wonderful yet so cruel bc this is him in a nutshell. He is cruel in an extremely covert way. Passive aggressive is his middle name. He is the most slick sociopath youll ever meet. Many women think hes the sweetest guy and theyre right…his facade is the sweetest. He still has me somewhat gaslite and fooled!! Even after all thats happened! How can someone be so accomidating and sweet yet be a covert asshole?? Its the biggest gaslite lie there is and he has that mask cemented in place. Youd need a power chisel to get it off.
    I think of you HG a greater elite narc and yet from all youve described of yourself with your primaries you still devalued them overtly so they knew beyond a doubt you were being cruel to them. Not my narc he says cruel things but in a mild way to create doubt….did he mean it that way? Like a house of mirrors everything distorted. Hes one hell of an actor and knows how to work people so good. Hes said things to me that have sliced me to the core yet when i call him out on it he says he didnt mean it to hurt me it was a joke etc then he turns into mr sweetheart again.
    Why can someone who does so many nice things have a mean streak and enjoy hurting the very one that loves them? Its part of the narc cycle as i know but it is so painful that flip flopping of personalities.
    Whats hurt me the most is the confusion with our relationship. Hes present and always there for me but i feel im placed on the shelf and theres someone else hes alternating me with. He can be very sexual and then like a switch nonsexual and friendzone me. Im so fed up with him calling the shots whether were lovers or friends ive told him lets just be friends but then he goes into apologies and nothings changed yet we both know it has. He gets off on the fact he can pick and choose when were intimate and that i allow this. This really pisses me off beyond belief. If we werent the friends/companions we have been id dump him for this alone but his pristine facade has made this difficult. Why couldnt he be a complete jerk and openly devalue me? That wouldve made it easy to walk away years ago but he knows his game and plays it so very well. He wants me to miss the parts of him i really love so ill stick around and let him use me like a ragdoll. Play with my heart and emotions like the object i am to him.
    Its so very painful bc its losing the person you were so attracted to, feeling ugly and rejected and im nowhere near ugly. Hes lucky i even found him attractive i couldve done so much better, you question your self worth and you lose faith in people. Nothing lasts and you start to feel that anyone out there will eventually get bored and do the same.
    This wonderful/cruel dynamic has left me bewildered and exhausted as well as anxious. I never really suffered anxiety before i met him. Now when i wake in the morning i get a panicky feeling and my heart races. I suppress it most of the day but i know the abuse has done a number on my anxiety levels.
    Give me a complete asshole jerk anyday over a sweet covert narcissist. The mind fuckery is beyond real!

    1. “If we weren’t such good friends, I think that I’d hate you.
      If we weren’t such good friends I’d wish you were dead!”

    2. Ginger says:

      Sounds just like mine

    3. Nuit Étoilée says:

      Thank you for sharing that, narc affair – it touches my heart… and many other things you’ve written…

      … i completely agree about the mind fuckery.. and questioning myself…

      Well, here’s hoping we use what we’ve learned to find an acceptance that brings peace… in whatever form that may be..

      1. narc affair says:

        Hi nuit etoilee…ty thats sweet 💓 i enjoy your posts as well. It seems strange but it really wouldve been easier if my narc was a complete jerk like a lesser. I wouldnt of stayed not for one second. He knows this tho and walks the thin line of devalument. The perfect salomie slicer. Hes sliced me paper thin over the years.

    4. DebbieWolf says:


      I relate to so much of your comment here. 18 months ago I felt the same way as you do re the anxiety and the thought processes about other people etc. It remains in memory but to serve and protect. The impact is there yes but not felt like agony inside. It ebbs off of you…it weakens and dims.
      One step at a time when a mountain is in front of you, believe me it looks unclimbable but you don’t have to climb it all in one day. Just one step ..one small thing a day and eventually you will look over your shoulder and see how far you’ve come.. and this I can promise you. It takes time I know that but small bytes a day will take you forward and you will get there. You will.⚘Peace to you on the deepest level. Take heart.

      1. narc affair says:

        Hi debbiewolf…ty for your reply it was really needed today ❤ it does feel like a mountain. For me i feel i have come a long way as far as being educated on npd and understanding it but to implement it is a whole other thing. Everywhere were told disengage and go no contact but i just cant bring myself to do that yet. I keep asking myself what will it take? I think itll take a devalument of a certain degree to make me completely say goodbye. I do love my narc as most everyone has at some point and i cant just walk away. I wont say i will never but right now im not there yet.
        Ty for your encouragment it doesnt fall on deaf ears bc i store it all and it helps to build up strength.

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          “Everywhere were told disengage and go no contact but i just cant bring myself to do that yet.”

          This is where I am at. UGH! I called him Thursday. Got his voice mail. I did not cry that time though! Hey baby steps right?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Why call him? Why have the number to call him? If you don’t have his number you cannot call him. Delete it.

          2. Gabrielle says:

            I have it memorized. 😕

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Delete it. See my earlier comments.

          4. K says:

            Listen to HG; he knows what he is talking about. After all, he is a narcissist and he is really good at it.

          5. Jenna says:


            Do u not hate him by now? If not, why not? He told u he slept w 40 women, that he uses sex as a form of expression of love, so basically he has sex with anyone?! Yuck! U r soo much more than that!

        2. DebbieWolf says:


          Hello.. yes it is one step at a time and you’ll know when you are ready but HG is right about emotional thinking..Bang on as usual.

          Sometimes pulling the plaster off quickly has to be done.
          You can pull it off slowly.. we all know how that’s going to feel.

          Each to their own.. but the quicker we get on with turning our back on all of this the quicker we can get back to a better life.

          It’s bloody hard and it really isn’t easy and it’s pretty frightening in my opinion – letting go of someone we love.
          It’s hard ..awful.
          But it is not impossible.
          And it is something that must be done sooner rather than later.

          We have to let go.
          “Sometimes we find out what we wanted isn’t really what we need”.. part of a song called ‘Letting Go’ by Michael Bolton.
          The lyrics are very good…
          (If anybody feels like looking them up or listening to that song probably will make you cry but there’s a lot of truth in it).

          We can do this you know..
          The thing is we have to.

          Choose life. X

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I mean obviously u should delete it but I know there is a good chance you have memorized it. At the very least rename him to “worthless” or “no contact” or “nobody” or “peasant”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Delete it. You do not need it.

          If it is there it is easier to dial, notwithstanding a name change. Even if you have memorised it, you have to recall it which means

          a. You may start to dial it and then stop (rather than just hit the name and dial) ; and
          b. In time you will forget it.

          This inability to do something straightforward and delete the name of someone abusing you and instead fucking around keeping it or changing the name is evidence of emotional thinking and reinforces why we see you as so weak.

          1. K says:

            I can see why you think we are weak, and you are correct to think it. No wonder narcissists are able to control and manipulate with such ease.

      3. Salome says:

        But the phone numbers of our Narcs…
        we know them by heart!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Each time you start to recall the number, stop doing so and in time your memory will lose the number.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            Is there a way to block emails? My google searches were not helpful.

          2. HG Tudor says:


            For example, in g-mail if you are in the e-mail from the person you wish to block, there is a downward arrow on the far right which produces a dropdown menu when you click on it and in the options it says block e-mail.

          3. Windstorm2 says:

            I’ve read that, but there is no downward arrow on mine. Just three dots. The drop down menu has options, but none of them are block.

          4. Jenna says:

            Looks like u have practice in doing this, maybe to ur former ipps? U bad boy!

          5. Windstorm2 says:

            I don’t have a computer, only iPhone and iPads. Maybe that makes a difference. I can mark it spam, but I’m ready for something final. Don’t want to be wondering if something’s in the spam folder.

      4. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Gab and bekah,

        For my other Harley Quinn’s lmao


    5. Insatiable Learner says:

      Dear NarcAffair, I can feel your excruciating pain through your writing. I am sorry this feels like agony. I’ve been there.
      “He wants me to miss the parts of him i really love so ill stick around and let him use me like a ragdoll. ” – these parts of him you love do not exist. It’s an illusion. The cruel torturer who torments you and plays with your heart and emotions is who he truly is. I know it hurts to accept that but accept it you must if you are ever to let go and stop the pain.
      “Im so fed up with him calling the shots” – this will never end. He will always call all the shots. There is no other way to have any relationship with a narc.
      I am not trying to drive in the knife deeper. I feel your pain and wish I could relieve it. However, honesty is the best policy in this situation.
      Praying for you and your healing.

      1. narc affair says:

        Ty insatiable learner…youre so right honesty is the best and i appreciate your reply. I need to keep the truth always center most in my mind to not get my head in the clouds and have distorted thoughts of him. I know what he is and i know there will never be anything substantial as far as any future in the real sense. Its difficult tho bc we have shared a lot even if a lot of it was illusion. I fell in love with him and care about him. Thats a truth too thats hard to do away with.

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          Narc Affair…

          “I fell in love with him and care about him. Thats a truth too thats hard to do away with.”

          Again, this is where I am at.

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        I want to answer your question about why I do not hate him but I know I will get told it is my emotional thinking. And yes it is along with the “what if” parade:

        What if he is not a narc?
        What if he is just an adulterer trying to fix himself?
        What if he really does feel guilty?
        What if those sex profiles were from a long time ago and he forgot to take them off the website or delete them?
        What if the Internet just keeps a record of all the shitty stupid things people do and there is no way to remove the profiles?
        What if he really wants to do the right thing by his wife and that is why he is ignoring me?
        What if there is no one else and it’s really just her? And he wants to do the right thing and not be an asshole to her?
        What if he really wants to do the right thing and stop cheating on her?

        What if, what if, what if….

        I do not know what hurts worse. Holding on or the idea of not holding on anymore. I think not holding on would hurt more and that is why I still hold on. I am sure that makes no sense.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          How about :-

          He is a narcissist. He is only ever going to do what suits him and make you miserable, hurt etc.

          You are not attempting to get your emotional thinking under control and instead you are allowing it to run rampant hence all these questions. I am going to answer them.

          1. He is a narcissist.
          2 He is not. He cheats repeatedly and he will keep doing it.
          3. He doesn’t. He is manipulating you and laughing at you inside.
          4. Except they were not.
          5. Irrelevant.
          6. He doesn’t. He wants to do the right thing for him.
          7. It’s not. But even if he did just want her, then that means he doesn’t want you, so you have lost him anyway.
          8. He doesn’t. He is just saying that to you to draw fuel from you and keep you away from him at present. He does not want any engagement with you and if you contact him he just uses it as an opportunity to draw fuel from you (we do not like empty interactions) and to reinforce that he does not want you.

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            Well shit, Tudor! Had I known you were going to reply to my “what if” parade I would have added the rest of the “what ifs” in my head. I was yelling all of that out into narc land and really did not think it would have elicited a reply from anyone (well maybe Jenna or HQ since they are usually more vocal to me and my nonsense) but since it was not the usual type of questions asked here and more of my “what if” temper tantrum I was totally not expecting you to entertain it with a reply.

            Re #8: Yes, I know. I massively wounded him by uncovering his internet nastiness. That is why he is keeping/pushing me away. I am just going to assume that such a thing makes me a dirty traitor and therefore I am the blackest of the black right now. Let’s just say as a hypothetical that I decide to tip off his wife to the profiles? Would telling him in advance what I am going to do cause greater wounding to him? If I block him he will never even know I did it. I’d much rather go out with a bang. I have nothing to lose but if he loses her it would serve him right. I know you tell us GOSO and NC but come on…..what are your thoughts on some good old revenge?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Now is not the right time for it. You are doing it when governed by your emotional thinking and therefore prolonging your addiction.
            1. You are doing it in the hope of being able to contact him to tip him off. Your ET is saying, “tip him off so he is worried about what you are going to do, that will get him worked up and worried” but what your ET is actually doing is trying to make you (a) keep thinking about him (b) contact him (c) in the expectation he will then contact you to say don’t do it or you dare and thus the addiction continues.
            2. If you do not tip him off, then you ET is saying to you “Tell the wife because that will make her flip out on him and show him for the shit he is, so go on and do it.” but what your ET is really doing is making you (a) think about him (b) generate a situation where he is likely to contact you and say what the fuck have you done that for (c) the wife contacts you and you discuss the narcissist and thus the addiction continues.

            GOSO – apply rigid no contact for at least six months and then consider whether you wish to do the tip off/revenge after that.

          3. jenna says:

            Hi gabs, hg, and tappan zee,

            Hg doesn’t want u to tip off his wife, but i would love to see fake piano jerk squirm for all his horrible behavior! Hg will sternly say to me “Ur advice is wrong. Ur emotional thinking is leading u in the wrong direction.” I know hg, i know. We are pathetic emotional creatures after all! Omg, did i just say ‘creature’? R u scared hg? 😂 It’s the only thing u fear, and i am trying to make light of it so that u may eventually overcome it. The creature need be banished! Be gone creature!
            Off with his head! ie. the creature’s

            Tappan zee, if ur reading this, i recall u writing ” ‘the creature’, what the hell?”
            I thought it was a little insensitive at the time, but for some reason that comment kept popping into my mind frm time to time, and eventually it started to make me laugh! Humour is v therapeutic!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            So, if you know it is wrong, why do you write it?

          5. jenna says:

            I know it’s emotional thinking hg, thx to u, but we r emotional after all. It’s a minus point to be emotional, for sure.

            I recognize that nc is best, and i do know that our emotional thinking must be controlled. But just like u find it difficult to self fuel (i read recently in one of ur comments), some find it difficult to let go completely of the emotions. Without fuel, u feel restless. Without my narc’s texts, i feel sad and i know he will be wounded. So, to alleviate it, i reply to him. It gives me a boost for a few wks. And he is more at peace too.

            Actually, on a very serious note, i wud like to make a request. I know u strictly enforce no contact, but i am wondering if u can write an article abt how to engage with the narc if one finds no contact very difficult. There r a few here that remain in contact and it wud b useful to know imo.

            For example, i have learned never to let him touch me again, nor to see him in person. That much i can control. (Gabs, u really shud at least do that much imo). I have learned not to question him abt his whereabouts and his new gf’s. I have learned to supply positive fuel. I will not provide negative fuel. He has learned not to make me jealous. He has learned not to contradict himself or i will question it. He has learned that i am v sensitive, so he always engages nicely with me.

            It is wrong, but i find it very difficult to not reply to him. It gives me physical symptoms like tachycardia if i don’t reply☹️

          6. HG Tudor says:

            I would only write such an article to address the issue where No Contact cannot be achieved for a highly valid reason, such as court ordered co-parenting, not because you feel sad without someone’s texts. That is not a valid reason to breach no contact and is further evidence of the impact of your emotional thinking.

            You have done some learning. Good.

            Now answer me this, do so using logic – what valid reason do you have to not go contact?

          7. Dickforlong says:

            I have to say here…. ACTIONS speak louder than words. It is the standard by which we judge the narc. If we held ourselves to the same standard there would be no need for this site.

            I did all the work for my narc. I left him and got back with him a million times in my head. I fantasized about reunions, arguments and breakups over and over and over.

            I can’t wait to FEEL better before I do better. I MUST DO BETTER IN ORDER TO FEEL BETTER. Every interaction I had with my narc (even the ones that took place only in my own head) created my inability to stay away… Created my need to say just one more thing.

            Today I can honestly say don’t love him. I also don’t hate him. I have no desire for revenge. I have no desire period…. For anything from him.

            He no longer owns me. I decided to take my life back…. He broke me in so many ways but I get to put myself back together any FUCKING WAY I WANT!

            GOSO AND NC…..

        2. jenna says:


          I recall him saying – i choose when and if i want to engage with you, or something to that effect. He is so mean!

          I don’t like mr. fake piano man. The piano doesn’t deserve him. Lol! If i were u, i wud argue so much. Hg wud not approve! 😅

          It’s nice that hg answered all of ur ‘what if’s’. I recall some texts u posted eg. my dear girl ur attention towards me is as guaranteed as the sun rises and sets – or some nonsense like that. And – i care abt u as a fellow human being – omg wth?!

          I think he must be having sex w multiple pple. Why else wud he have those profiles? And they can be deleted.

          1. Gabrielle says:

            Jenna you are blessed with an excellent memory similar to mine. Yup he said all of those things as he devalued me.
            I love you became I care for you. (As a friend)
            I care for you (as a friend) became I care about you (as a fellow human being).
            I love you became I don’t love you
            You are not a fling became you are a fling
            We are done having sex became us having sex
            I’m gonna do the right thing became “ I will indulge in our sexual attraction from time to time, but it is wrong of me to do so” 🙄

            Oh some other ones which I don’t think I’ve shared.

            “I could be in love with you if I wanted to be, but I cannot allow that to happen”

            “I wish I was in love with you so that you wouldn’t feel so hurt”

            He doesn’t deserve my love but I still love him anyway.


      3. gabbanzobean says:

        LOL at the tomato comment. And at his wife too nonetheless! From what I know about their history/beliefs/etc. I think she most likely stays for their child, their religious beliefs (not believing in divorce, always believing in forgiveness, etc.) even though his actions just contradict such. And of course he can maintain his Churchy nice guy small southern town family man façade. That is my surface observation though. I am sure like any “abusive relationship” she is stuck in pretty deep and will likely never leave even if he is exposed again. As far as I know he was exposed once. Who knows how many double lives he led and is still leading. Should the tomato throwing ever come to fruition I would feel bad throwing tomatoes at her. I go back and forth with feeling sorry for her with feeling tremendous jealousy over her. The jealousy is half toward wishing I could witness his behavior in how he treats her so it can give me something to hate him. As a long distance DLS I am so removed. The other half of the jealousy is that I wish I was her so he could be mine.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Gabs, that last sentence actually causes me pain! Can’t you see that he’s not hers either?!? Yes she sees more of him, but that just means she puts up with way more abuse! Surely you don’t think he is nice to her. He’s a narc – they’re always abusive to the people they live with – always. I don’t think they can help it. They can be nice for a little while, but then they have to try to dominate, ridicule and draw negative fuel.

          My exhusband knows what he is and the repercussions of being abusive with me. But he even says that when we’re together, we have a “3 day shelf-life.” After 3 days he will get on my nerves to the point I stop providing positive fuel, then he will begin to try for the negative. We neither one of us can help it. We solve this by never spending more than 3 days together if at all possible, and if we have to then we take breaks from one another.

          Your narc doesn’t know what he is or why he does what he does. He’s going to be abusive out of the blue at any time with no control. That is hell to have to live with. His wife gets my pity. I wouldn’t want to see you trapped in marriage to him.

          Sorry for my rant. I try to stay quiet and I know you have to work through this on your own. But one day you will realize that trading places with his wife would NOT make him yours. He will never be anybody’s but his own.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Entirely accurate.

            Gab’s logic knows this, but it is not being heard because of the rampant emotional thinking. Only one person can get that under control and that is Gab, but she has to want to do it.

          2. K says:

            I thought the same thing: He does not belong to the wife. He belongs to no one. And if he and Gabs got together, he would cheat on her, too.

        2. Jenna says:

          Hi gabs,

          This is true. When there are children involved, it makes it much more difficult to leave. I somewhat sympathize with her in that respect, but i somewhat do not due to her enabling him. I do recall u stating that she knows he cheats.
          U need not feel jealous of her. I know, easier said than done. Remember, he is not hers either.

        3. Jenna says:


          I just had a lightbulb moment! It may be the wife who tells him he shud feel guilty, etc. He may be simply mirroring those words back to u, becoz we don’t know what they talk abt right? Perhaps she voiced her concerns? “U must never leave me and our child, i’ll die without u; u shud feel guilty for everything u put me thru; i care abt u; u must not love anyone else” etc. He has no guilt. He memorizes her lines and repeats them to u, ie. character traits frm her.

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            That is a very interesting theory. I wonder if they sometimes get confused doing all this mirroring. I am sure it adds to the contradictory. I will never forget many months ago when he sent the most confusing text I had ever read. It was after he was flip flopping on the whole “I love you, I care for you, I don’t love you” contradictions as he has done over and over again.

            The text said, “It hurt me to say all of that to you. It felt like it was going against the feelings in my heart. But that is how I know it was the right thing to say. Doing the right thing sucks in the short term”.

            I must have re-read that twenty times. It makes NO sense. It is just a contradiction like everything else.

            I am sure if your theory is right and he mirrors the shit his wife says all that does it make him look like a bigger idiot. And he is intelligent. Surely he must realize how idiotic he sounds by constantly contradicting himself?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No he doesn’t because of compartmentalisation. You keep assessing his behaviour through your perspective. His narcissism operates in a way which serves him best, this means contradiction occurs but is not recognised.
            By being contradictory we maintain superiority. By not seeing the contradiction, we maintain superiority.

          3. gabbanzobean says:

            This is one of the things I still struggle to understand. The fact that he is intelligent….he still cannot see that he is contradictory? I mean even if he deflects it and blames me or whatever, he does not realize he is doing it? How can someone who is intelligent not realize this? How come you can realize you act this way but he can’t? Some of the stuff he says almost seems like he knows what he is. I know you say it is to get fuel by way of confusion but some of the stuff he says really makes me wonder if he knows what he is. But you keep saying they do not (well mid anyway) do not know what they are. If this is the case then why do certain things that are said make it seem like they know what they are?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Because that is how his narcissism manifests. Also, your question about how someone who is intelligent not see this is precisely the reason why you remain stuck and it is designed to be that way. Remember, from the narcissistic perspective it makes perfect sense to him because IT HAS TO for his self-defence mechanism to work. I realise because of my heightened awareness through being a Greater and what I have learned through observation – I still get told that I am also blinded by my narcissism in certain aspects also.

          5. Jenna says:

            Hi hg,

            “… I still get told that I am also blinded by my narcissism in certain aspects also.”

            What an extremely honest admission. Aww…
            I found that cute, even tho I know ur evil.

          6. Star says:

            Hello:) If he realizes he is being contradictory, the truth is he dosent care. If anything it probably makes him feel powerful to be able to keep you dangling. He wants you to keep prying into his inconsistencies, he wants you to keep trying to figure out his mixed messages. He wants to keep you trapped. He may not know that he is a narcissist but he knows that what he is doing is causing a reaction in you, and he enjoys poking at you and getting that emotional response from you. That’s all he cares about, is what HE GETS from u. He dosent care if he appears confusing, he relishes in confusing you. It gives him pleasure.If my take is wrong on this HG, please correct me, oh and congratulations on 7 million!!!

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Essentially correct.

            1. The Greater, knowing what he is, would behave this way. There is a combination of fuel, naturally, from the responses and the presence of a sadistic streak in doing it and exerting such control. He knows he is being a contrarian but does not care. He may well appear to be ‘happy’ because of the impact of the fuel.
            2. An Upper Mid Ranger will not know what he is. He will feel powerful owing to the fuel, which would manifest to an observer as delight or happiness. He also knows that behaving in this way is exerting some kind of control over you and feels you deserve to be treated this way and therefore continues to poke. He recognises he is being a contrarian but his narcissism immediately justifies it by stating it is your fault an not his.
            3. A, say Middle Mid Ranger, will not know what he is. His narcissism, as a self-defence mechanism, will not allow him to see that he is being a contrarian – therefore there is no need for him to even address the issue of fault , because he is not doing anything wrong. He also may appear to be happy because of the fuel that is being provided.

          8. Windstorm2 says:

            That may be the objective but it’s not always the outcome. Often narcs just come off as ignorant and stupid when they try to bluff superiority that way.

          9. Jenna says:


            “Surely he must realize how idiotic he sounds by constantly contradicting himself?”

            Like hg states, they don’t realize it. Only a greater wud realize it. The mirroring and acquiring of character traits is instinctive. He may know something is off, as hg explains abt the mid-ranger.

      4. gabbanzobean says:


        “Gabs, that last sentence actually causes me pain!”

        I did not mean to upset you, I was only sharing my perspective. Which I am often told is wrong!

        I really wish I could see things how other people see them.

        Better yet I wish I could just be a narc and feel NOTHING at all.

      5. Jenna says:


        Thank u for ur reply abt writing an article concerning that topic. I understand.

        I was thinking very deeply abt this question all day – what valid reason do i have to not go no contact, using only logic?
        NONE. I cannot think of one reason hg.

        ALL the reasons r emotional – that he is trying hard to change, that he is so kind to me, that i still have a type of love for him, that i miss him on some days, that he has suffered childhood abuse of some form, that i do not want to hurt him like his abuser(s?) hurt him, that just becoz he took his love away it doesn’t mean i must take mine away, that he is depressed at times and it makes me sad, that i am the only one who knows he has npd and we discuss it, that he is confused as to what is wrong with him, that he says this world is not for him, that he says he lost his identity and that makes me sad too, that he has many great qualities like perseverance and dedication which he downplays, and more…

        NO logical reasons i have hg. They are all emotional.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well, at least you are honest. Not that that is going to help you.

      6. Gabrielle says:

        Thank you HG. The way you explain it makes sense, I am reading your words and they make sense. I understand what you saying but at the same time I struggle to understand it, if that makes sense. And yes I know….emotional thinking as you have reiterated.

        When you use the terms “defensive mechanism….heightened awareness….”

        So he does not know what he is but he is smart enough to have some awareness that he is “messed up”….but the defense mechanism keeps interfering with any of that awareness “because it has to”.

        So basically my interpretation is that for a fleeting moment he might know that his behavior is either wrong, asshole-ish, makes no sense, etc. but then his “defenses” kick in? And this causes the contradiction, the blaming and all the other crap that follows?

        I just can’t see how he can use all these psychological terms all the time and not know what he is. “I thought I was a sociopath but I feel guilt and empathy”…. “I hyper-compartmentalize”…. perhaps other people in his life have said this to him and he just repeats it? Otherwise why say it? Yes, I know you are going to say fuel but it also makes it seem like he knows what he is, even if it is only briefly. I know you say that your kind (well except you) do not know what you are.

        And why the defense mechanism? To protect himself from whatever hurt him/messed him/fucked him up to make him become this way?

        I feel like I keep trying to fit pieces of a puzzle together here. But then more pieces go missing. Or what I thought fit does not fit.

        Okay I am done. Good grief that was long.

    6. gabbanzobean says:

      Narc Affair…..3rd reply to you as I am catching up on the comments to this article….

      when you say….

      “Whats hurt me the most is the confusion with our relationship. Hes present and always there for me but i feel im placed on the shelf and theres someone else hes alternating me with. He can be very sexual and then like a switch nonsexual and friendzone me. Im so fed up with him calling the shots whether were lovers or friends ive told him lets just be friends but then he goes into apologies and nothings changed yet we both know it has. He gets off on the fact he can pick and choose when were intimate and that i allow this.”

      OMFG this! a million times this!!! Long distance DLS that I am but still….all of this!!!! Sexual and friend zoned. We are done having sex and then we do. There for me an avoids me like I do not exist. Alternating me with someone else and I do not mean his wife either….other someone elses….many someone elses….

      Yeah your paragraph summarizes it all for me but then again we have had these similar confirmations before too!

      1. gabbanzobean!

        Butting in on your convo here.
        I believe there is no baby steps in NC.

        I hope you will arrive at that decision.You have to want to arrive at that decision.

        I repeat here.

        It will be time to purge.Block the number, screen your calls, block the email.Don’t answer the door. Don’t call or write. Don’t check his basefuck page. Don’t check yours. If you feel you can’t NOT contact him, open a reply box here, and let fly! You were used, feel the anger! Vomit up the pretty poison. Take the view from outside. This is (you)your best friend he his doing this to. Will you not help her? You need to LISTEN to the pain you are telling about. Have empathy for and protect your friend(yourself). You need you to be on YOUR side, not his. He does not care about you, only about his fuel. You need to be your own best friend. Because no one is coming to save you.You have support here, but,You are your own savior. You CAN do it.

        Here are your instructions and your tools. Gather your workmates. Get the job done.. It’s OK if you take longer than estimated. Just remember your cost is at least the time lost.

        When that time comes.

        Make it a clean break. Make it a fast cut.
        Don’t want to feel the ache. Don’t want to keep the rush!


        If I come to, and I feel you still creeping in my skin,
        Its back I go under the knife, and start over again.
        Don’t need no phantom limb!

        Hey, it may take a few tries. If it helps you feel less incompetent, statistics show it takes an average of 5-7 attempts to break from an abuser. Yes he is an abuser. HG can tell you every line he has/will use. And what that will provoke in you. A formulaic pattern of torture.

        You are a beautiful young woman, who should be living a beautiful life. That does not include anxiety, insecurity, and pain from one who has so much less to give then you.

        Time for me to STFU now.



  13. DebbieWolf says:

    ‘That the narcissist has no insight into his behaviours’
    That one..
    And the fact that he would say we were going to do things and we did not.
    And not on the list : future faking or exaggerating…
    The thing is I wouldn’t even call it future faking because I think he believed it himself …again the lack of awareness. He talked of things ahead.
    Things about our lives together cosy times.. I’m talking about all the simple pleasures too..just the simple things that some people may find boring… he would talk about how things were going to be.. and none of it came to fruition.

    Like a child that runs excitedly into the room on Christmas day and there are no presents..and youre only 6 or something and don’t understand because of all the build up.

    I expect nothing. Never did..it is when they instigate things and then it isnt true.
    I’ve always believed in living in the moment and he got me believing in the future. I don’t like that.
    Afterall there is only now in life.

    Im so glad to be remembering that once more.. Not be a Slave to the Future …live in the now.. and live the way you want in the now.

    It works.

  14. Insatiable Learner says:

    Dear all, did anyone else feel on edge around the narc even during “good times”? Don’t know why but I would feel anxious even when things seemed all right.

    1. Bekah B says:

      Absolutely! Days after a hoover when he said and did all the right things, I was just waiting for the moment it would all come crashing in due to a minor incident.. Or in just listening to him speak, knowing the words had no truth behind them.. Or even if he stepped out of the house for a moment, wondering if he would ever come back.. He did, in an hour, but just having that impending doubt in the back of your mind all of the time that this person is not for real.. I think that is when you really start to reconcile in your mind exactly who you are dealing with and you cannot be duped anymore..

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you for your input, Bekah! Indeed, once you see the fakery and pretense behind the sweet words, you are way on your way to healing. It’s a long journey for sure! Very best to you on yours!

    2. Recovering Narcoholic says:

      Insatiable Learner — Yes! And that “feeling on edge” took a physical toll on me as well as an emotional one. Two years into the relationship, I developed cardiac arrhythmia, which I suspected was stress-related — only I attributed it to the fact that I had a stressful job. I haven’t seen or heard from him for a year now… and haven’t had a single irregular heartbeat in that year. Coincidence? I think not.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Dear RN, thank you very much for your response! It’s very validating to hear that others felt the same. I am so glad your health has substantially improved! Wishing you complete recovery, peace, and happiness!

    3. Tappan Zee says:

      IL— yes. when the shoe wasn’t dropping. waiting for it to. anxious. by design.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you, TZ. Validation is very therapeutic. Appreciate your input!

    4. K says:

      Insatiable Learner
      The last two years together were a mess, I felt lots of confusion, hate, anger and sometimes I felt like I was living with the Devil. It caused a great deal of cognitive dissonance.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you for your response, K, and so sorry to hear about your painful experience. Wishing you speedy healing.

  15. S says:

    HG are you planning any writing on how to break the trauma bond?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is part of Zero Impact.

  16. Noname says:

    It hurted me only during childhood – Objectification, “Not good enough”, and Betrayal of Trust.

    I healed myself after those tough lessons and gained the understanding, that I’m not an object (no one can prove me otherwise), I’m “good enough” (no one can prove me otherwise) and it is wise to give a trust to someone, fully realizing and even expecting that it could be betrayed in any moment, so the “surprise-surprise” effect of beyrayal would be zero.

  17. Eva says:

    The way he messages me now as if nothing happened. This time it is different though . It doesn’t feel like a hoover. It was so long since I had heard from him that I didn’t think I would ever hear from him again but then I did.
    Then I thought he was gone again like before but then I heard from him again and then again!
    I don’t know what the hell is going on but now he is messaging me every fortnight.

  18. That he never loved me while I believed him. The things that he did at first, just seemed too petty to complain about. Taking my jewelry or tools,other personal possessions, saying he wanted them and I could use them anytime I want, just ask. I was being conditioned to have things taken away. All the while smiling in my face,we are 2 halves of one , you & me against the world,soulmates.
    He lied to me and about me, and he chose her over me.
    He hid the dealbreaker from me. And he chose her over me,but refused to leave, would not let me leave, denied that he was involved with anyone. He had many different plausible stories for people, openly discussing with them, but don’t mention it to me, I’m unreasonable about it. She got all the things promised to me, the home ,the child, New vehicles, Christmases, College for the child, playing super dad, she probably having to deal with very little of the mindfuckery.
    Cheating his own “formerly golden” son of the generous caring father he promised he would be when he came to live with us. Making his son a party to his duplicity with threats of violence and yet another abandonment, all the while I’m try to parent his child on my own, and to try to care for him when I am allowed no idea as where the child’s hatred and revulsion for his father had suddenly came from.
    That in the end, even though he knew I wouldn’t break my promise to even him, no matter that I couldn’t feel the same love for him anymore, he continued to lie and future fake.
    That he probably enjoyed thinking ahead about my reaction when his other child would contact me, and she expecting me to welcome her with open arms, which I would not be able to do since he killed my child before it was even born, feeding me horrific lies about the why.

    1. Bekah B says:

      I am so sorry.. 🙁

      1. Bekah,
        thanks for the thoughts. I’m sure you’ll hear or have heard worse, on this site. Sometimes it feels like oversharing, but it’s crazymaking that you’re not believed elsewhere. It’s nothing unusual here.
        I was sad to read what your experience was like. And it is so much worse that they can be wonderful, and then be the scariest thing you have ever dealt with in your life.
        The saddest part though, is the children who actually live life with a narc parent, absent or present or part time with the child as a dirty secret.

  19. apocalipznow says:

    The total lack of accountability. Be it who left the gate open or who were you with when you left for 3 days..getting an honest answer is like pulling teeth.

  20. An_eternal_student says:

    My life has been threaded with narcissism. It’s good to finally be aware and moving in a different direction.

  21. An_eternal_student says:

    Even a year after leaving, his lies are still finding the light of day. Each time one of them us found out by me or told to me by another I feel as though I’ve been punched in the stomach.
    I know it’s not my fault. Except the question that keeps repeating itself in my mind is “How could I be so stupid?”

  22. Marjorie Murphy says:

    The loss of my family.

  23. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, could you please elaborate on this “Be it social, business, familial and most of all romantic, there will always be pain involved.

    Some pain occurs during the engagement, other times it comes with knowledge thereafter. The hurt is inevitable.”? Outside of the IPPS relationship, why do the hurt and pain have to be inevitable? I am really struggling with this, especially, since you many times stated that secondary sources enjoy an almost perpetual golden period. Thanks so much!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Corrective Devaluations;
      2. Disengagement Devaluations;
      3. The victim wanting more out the relationship with a Shelf IPSS or DLS but not being allowed more by the narcissist.

      1. Gabrielle says:

        Yup. As a DLS this is where I’m at.

      2. Bekah B says:

        Number 3 is perfect!!

      3. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thanks so much for clarifying, HG! Indeed, all these are very painful.

      4. narc affair says:

        Ive only experienced #3 but have had other forms of devaluation.
        I suspect im a shelf ipss out of many secondaries/no primary. This really upsets and angers me and if it wasnt for my narcs sweet fun side omg he wouldve been goneeee longggg ago! He knows how to gaslight via maintaining the facade and pacifying.

      5. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        You are about to get two dedications tonight lol!


      6. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Thought you would appreciate these song lyrics. I figured you might be able to be relate. It was the song I always associated with my first psychopath…

        Past tense….

        Just an old friend coming over now to visit you and
        That’s what I’ve become
        I let myself in though I know I’m not supposed to but
        I never know when I’m done

        And I see you fogging up the mirror
        Vapor round your body glistens in the shower
        And I want to stay right here and go down on you for an hour
        Or stay, and let the day just fade away
        In wild dedication, take the moment of hope
        And let it run, and never look back at all the damage we have done now
        To each other

        Cause when I see you, it’s like I’m starring down the sun
        And I’m blinded
        There’s nothing left to do
        Still I see you

        I never believed that things they happen for a reason and
        They never go as planned
        I wanted to thank you for a vision that was lost that you returned but
        You’re passed do you understand

        Now his appetite is blown, little else is known
        Except he’s a little angry, grabs a towel and looks away
        And heat fades with the day
        And I fall down on what to say,
        Oh something clean let me be clever
        Hey oh well whatever
        But that’s not what I mean
        When where we’ve been has left us burned
        Still I won’t turn now from a fight you know I’ll never win

        So when I see you, you know all the things I’ve done
        Well I’m blinded
        Like I’m staring down the sun
        When I see you
        It’s like I’m staring down the sun

        Time passes and it tells us what we’re left with
        We become the things we do
        Me I’m a fool, spent from defiance, yeah you got me but
        I didn’t give up on you

        Icarus is not a tee shirt or a swan song, no
        He is born again and it’s not easy being me
        But I can’t promise I will mend or bend
        When you believe that we are fixed now from our birth
        And I’ve just fallen back to earth
        Still you know I’ll try again

        1. Gabrielle says:

          Doc HQ….
          Those lyrics!!!! Holy damn.

          “Still you know I’ll try again”

          Yep! I called him yesterday. Got his voice mail. At least I didn’t cry like usual after he didn’t pick up!!!! Hey baby steps right?


      7. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I forgot to post the song ….

        Here it is…



      8. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        Can you at the very least change his name in your phone to “worthless” ?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Fair point but since you are there editing the entry, block it and delete. Even better change your number.

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            Dr HQ,
            Right now his phone entry remains as “Georgia Shitstorm”. It used to be “Georgia Sunshine”.

            Worthless is a good one but there are so many other ideas too…from random thoughts scattered on this blog mostly…

            Mr Piano Recital and Fake Church Guy could be potential runners up.

            Where is Jenna for commentary?

          2. Jenna says:

            Gabs, narcaffair, star, debbiewolfe,

            I like ur name for him on ur phone. It shud help u to call him less.

            I can relate. I still love my ex. Idk what to do.

            For me it’s been 1.5 yrs since i saw him last, and i still think abt him. He texts me abt once a month to see how i’m doing. I get so tempted to text in btwn that time frame, but i hold off. It’s esp hard on dark rainy days like today.

            I like the encouraging words u have given to star. It helps me too. Ty. 💗

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Re Gabs – no it won’t, a simple name change is NOT going to impact on the strength of the emotional thinking you are experiencing. It is plain as day it will not from what you have written and a comment such as this is just playing into the delusion of your emotional thinking.

            Delete it. Block it.

          4. Jenna says:

            U r correct, as always hg. But i don’t think she is ready to delete it. So it is a step that she has at least changed the name, no?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Of course she is ready to delete it. Emotional thinking creates that as an excuse.

            What logical reason is there for keeping it? None. Therefore it is not a case of not being ready to delete it – that is nonsense. No it is not a step to change it – that is emotional thinking again, deluding yourselves that somehow changing it from Prince Charming to Arsehole is going to protect you. It isn’t – you are just making pathetic excuses for keeping the name in your phone.

            Delete it.

          6. Jenna says:

            Ooh, i love it when ur commanding! Sometimes…

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Never mind deflecting from what I have written, commanding or not, what I wrote is accurate and correct.

          8. Jenna says:

            Oh! I know it is accurate. Like k stated, no wonder u think we r weak, becoz it definitely is a weakness.

            But i got ahead of myself and just wrote the statement abt loving when u r commanding.

            I actually realized after i pressed ‘post’ that i first shud have written abt ur statement being true. Of course it is true. There is no doubt there.

          9. DebbieWolf says:

            Hey Jenna.

            No problem. We take comfort from each other..hopefully every little seed of it helps us to move on..because we must.

            We have to leave what isnt working behind us.

            One life..time is the irreplaceable commodity. Keep yours for YOUR benefit.🌹

          10. Jenna says:

            Ty debbiewolf.

          11. Kimi says:

            I dubbed mine “Cruel Mother F*cker” as a reminder of who he really was and took great delight in seeing that on my phone!

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Number should be deleted.

      9. ava101 says:

        How do you block a phone number when deleted? Seriously? I have a long, long list of e-mail addresses and phone numbers of the ex narc in my address book, which I never want to see again, but I cannot delete them from the black list … I once had blocked a whole country code because of him, which was an easy solution, and now he lives in the same country. *argh*

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Contact your telephonic provider.

      10. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        I’ve been there: he must be blocked and deleted not only from the phone but from all social media, destroy/delete all pictures and memories with him, give away presents received from him, keep nothing (it helps you making some effort to stay only in the present). If possible, renovate your house (you begin a new life) or- at least change all that reminds you of him (I rearranged all, made more room. Took me 2 weeks, before I’ve finished, I’ve already forgotten about him). Change your look- hairstyle (not the way he hates it, the way you like it). Then go out with your friends as ofen as possible (especially when you feel nostalgic), start something new for your improvement: a dance class, learning a new language, something you like, useful and get to meet new people, it works wonders. Keeping your mind occupied helps you cure your “useless” emotions (useless…for him and for you, sad but true).

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          I’ve reached the “finished with” point with my Moron in Munich. But I don’t know how to block emails on gmail. HG’s advice to hit the arrow on the right and choose delete from the drop menu does not work for my iPhone or iPad. There is no delete In the drop menu. Does anyone know how to block emails on an iPhone?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            As far as I can tell WS2 this appears to be a source of frustration for people using an iPhone or Ipad as the block option does not appear.

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            I do have an old lap top. Maybe I can take it with me to TN this weekend and my son can help me get it operational. Hopefully then I can use it to block him. I know myself. If he just goes to spam, I will occasionally look. Sad, but at least I’m not deceiving myself.

            I am ready to totally jettison him, though. Think I’ve learned all I can and hearing from his selfish, worthless self is just frustrating or painful. Don’t need any more frustrations or pains! 😝

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Do you have a friend with a laptop or desktop?

          4. Windstorm2 says:

            Only my sons. I use the computers at school and they have all emails blocked except the school one. I’ll just have to go to one of my sons. I’ll be in TN this weekend with the middle one, he’s back from Japan for two weeks. He’ll have his lap top if mine won’t work. Don’t think any of them have a desk top anymore. That’s gone the way of the dodo and the landline phone!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Good for you WS2, you are not letting any ET thinking seize on these obstacles so you do not do it. You are applying logic and you are committed to seeing the blocking achieved. HG approves.

          6. Windstorm2 says:


          7. K says:

            I was going to suggest that you ask one of your kids or try Google. Sometimes I have luck with instructions by doing a Google search.
            My iPhone didn’t sync up with my mac and that is how my no contact was breached by the narc knitter. Good luck with the Moron in Munich. He sounds like a delight!

          8. Gabrielle says:

            I laugh every time I see “moron in Munich”……
            Reminds me of all the hilarious nick names we give thee narcs….

            Channeling Jenna. Mr Piano recital at church.
            Renamed “fucking fake church dude”.

            As always, I am just trying to find the humor. Always looking for the humor. Always. 😊

          9. jenna says:


            U want humour? Imagine me throwing tomatoes at him during his church piano recital! I’ll even throw a couple at his wife, for knowing he cheats repeatedly, yet staying w him, thereby allowing it…
            And, i will play something even louder and drown out the piano recital!!
            Wait, all of this is fuel for him so nvm! 😅

          10. K says:

            Your “tomato throwing” comment made me laugh. I got happy fuel, thank you!

          11. jenna says:


            Yw. Care to join me in the tomato throwing? 😂

          12. K says:

            You are so cheeky! As long as we leave the poor wife out of it, I am game.

          13. Jenna says:

            You’re right k. Why involve her? I’m going grocery shopping later. I’ll get some v ripe soft tomatoes. The piano recital will be different this week!
            He will be covered in red, again… Gabs, i hope u got the joke! 😅

          14. K says:


            Moe: Moe’s Tavern, where the elite meet to drink.

            Bart: Uh, yeah, hello. Is Mike there? Last name, Rotch.

            Moe: Hold on, I’ll check. [calls] Mike Rotch! Mike Rotch! Hey, has anybody seen Mike Rotch lately?! [snickers from the patrons] [to phone] Listen to me, you little puke. One of these days, I’m going to catch you, and I’m going to carve my name on your back with an ice pick!

            Every time I see WS2’s comments about her “Moron form Munich” I laugh. Fake fucking church dude is accurate and you are right, always look for the humor.

          15. jenna says:


            You’re ‘finished’ w ur ‘moron in munich’? That’s excellent news! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

            What made u come to this decision? U have known him for over a decade, or even longer, am i correct? U’ve only met him in real life once, and thereafter the interaction is all thru email, correct? What a moron he really is!! What kind of narc gets fuel frm a one time meet then only email interactions!?🤣 If i have ur story wrong, pls correct me.

          16. Windstorm2 says:

            It was 40 years ago this last August that I met my Moron, but for 35-36 of those years I had cut him off (easy to do when all there was were letters!), because it was just too depressing and painful to correspond with him.

            For the past two years I have been observing him and running little mini experiments on him. I have finished my observations of him and drawn my conclusions. Continuing to interact with him doesn’t make any sense to me because it is still depressing and painful. This is because he has the least empathy of anyone I have ever seen. Most narcs at least have some cognitive empathy or lie and fake empathy. My Moron doesn’t even pretend or fake it. He is just selfish, petty, and childish while being condescending and arrogant.

            If he had lived here where I could have met and seen him, I doubt I’d have had anything to do with him, because I’d have seen clearly what he was very quickly. But he learned early not to phone me because I could tell how he really felt too clearly from his voice and it’s very hard to figure out a person just from texts and emails.

            NarcAngel compared him to haveing an ant farm once. I believe that is very apt. Interesting to observe and figure out for a time, but now it’s old and dusty and just takes up too much room. Time to throw it away and free up that room for other interests. 😊

          17. Jenna says:


            Ur moron sounds indeed v moronic! May i ask, what is it that he used to write to u abt in the emails? For some reason i imagine a man at a phone booth trying desperately to call u, and not able to. Then, he resorts to email, and u barely answer those either, but he keeps trying for yrs and yrs! This is the picture abt ur moron in my mind. (If it is too painful to share, then i understand).

          18. Windstorm2 says:

            Your mental picture of my Moron sounds very romantic, but is not accurate at all. It also seems to make me out as more hard hearted than I am.

            38 years ago when I stopped corresponding with him by letter, he showed no sign of really minding. He was getting ready to propose to a girl he was dating (there was no romance between us). I was unhappily married and had hoped to be able to talk to him about my life, but he was never really interested. His only interests were always in himself.

            To show you how clueless he was and why corresponding with him was frustrating, at this time he was dating 2 sisters at the same time. When he told me this, I was horrified and asked, “Doesnt it bother them that you’re dating their sister?” He answered, “No, they both love me.”
            In his last letter he told me he had decided to marry but couldn’t decide which sister to ask. He figured seniority would be fairest and he would ask the older sister. I read this thinking, “Oh my God, M please don’t tell her your reasoning!” That is when I wrote and asked him not to write me anymore. I used my husband as an excuse, although he never cared about any of my male friends. He knew I would be faithful.

            When he hoovered me 36 years later I found out he DID tell his reasoning and she said “no.” Being a Moron, he then asked the younger sister to marry him and was completely shocked when she said no as well! Since then he told me he’d asked one other woman he’d dated in Germany, but “their careers were in conflict.” Are you getting a better pic of him now?

            61 and never married. Says he only visits the women he dates and has never lived with a woman other than his mother and sisters. I believe him. He is too sensitive to any criticism or questioning to be able to tolerate living with any woman. After we reconnected two years ago he couldn’t even pull off a creditable love bombing by phone and text. He is just too totally clueless as to a woman’s wants, needs and feelings.

            I don’t want his occasional emails anymore because they are just obnoxious in their insensitivity. He writes about himself, what he’s doing – especially if he thinks he can brag about it. If I respond, he usually doesn’t say anything. I think it is a constant criticism to him that I have retired but he must work four more years. Anything I say about my activities that I can do with my extra time triggers a silent period of a few weeks. I never totally cut any of my narcs off, however. He can always send me an old time letter by snail mail. 😊

            Hope that answers your questions.

          19. E. B. says:


            “61 and never married. Says he only visits the women he dates and has never lived with a woman other than his mother and sisters. … He is just too totally clueless as to a woman’s wants, needs and feelings..”

            You should consider yourself lucky that you never had an intimate relationship with him. The only woman in his life seems to be his mother. These women do not want their son to have a life of their own. They need them to take care of the house, finances and all kinds of problems that may come up. They interfere in their relationships and sexuality. Many of these men have problems with their sexuality and some become paedophiles.
            I am glad to know that you feel ready to block his emails.

          20. Windstorm2 says:

            You’re completely right about him being totally ties to his mother. He was her golden child and she disliked all the women he dated. None were good enough.
            On his birthday every year, he goes to church to say prayers for her since “My birthday the the best day of her life!” He often talks about her and mourns (for himself) all the things she used to do for him.

            She’s been dead 11 years. He mourns several days on her death anniversary. I used to buy flowers and say prayers for her, but I always felt I could feel her disdain for me from beyond the grave. His avatar for his email is of flowers he put on her gravestone.

            You can see why this man was an interesting study for me. I had no idea anyone was like this – especially a narcissist. I was used to extremely confident greaters. He is NOTHING like these narcs i grew up with.

          21. Jenna says:


            “His avatar for his email is of flowers he put on her gravestone.”
            Is he norman bates?

            He is truly an MIM (moron in munich)! He has mommy issues.
            Dating two sisters and not knowing who to propose to? Omg! Mim, mim, mim!!

            Be gone, mim! I’m so glad u’re done w him. And ty for sharing. I was v curious abt mim, and now i have my answers.

            He is laughable in a way!

          22. E. B. says:


            I can understand now why you wanted to know more about him and his behaviour. I have to laugh every time you say the Moron in Munich! Is he a Lesser?
            He must have had an emotionally incestuous relationship with his mother, similar to husband and wife. Yes, they speak about their mothers quite often. These women seem to make their sons clear (indirectly) that no matter how many women they meet, they will never be good enough for them. Their mothers are more important than everyone else in their sons’ life. These narcissistic mothers will call their sons at work or when they know they are with a partner. They will storm into the bedroom and see their adult sons naked or even having sex with their partners. They do not respect personal space. The mother wants to know *everything* and the son will tell her everything about him and also what his girlfriend or wife says or do. These men cannot be trusted. They are blind to what it is going on and do not see anything wrong with their mothers. They believe they are overprotective.
            You are lucky your relationship with him did not prosper. His mother and sisters would have ruined it and made your life a living hell.

          23. E. B. says:


            It seems that Gmail added the Block Sender option back in 2015. Yesterday I had a look at my husband’s *old* Android tablet (with a gmail app and browser). This feature was not there. This tablet does not get any OS updates anymore. I do not have an iPhone. Have you install all updates?

            As HG suggested, you can ask your children or a friend (a neighbour?) to use their desktop computer or laptop. It will not take more than 10 minutes. I use a combination of the Block option *and* Filter because one of the narcissists hoovering me from time to time emails me from different accounts.
            I also recommend a modem/router with all the necessary PBX/telephone features you may need. They are very easy to set up nowadays. You take control of all incoming and outgoing calls, block anonymous calls, forward calls to multiple answering machines and telephones/cell phones and so on.
            What OS and browser are installed on your old laptop?

          24. Windstorm2 says:

            Thank you for your info and advice!
            My phone and iPads are all up to date. I’ve had my lap top since before 2015 – no clue what OS it has. So it very well may not work either. I’ll see what my son can do this weekend. Maybe I should update the lap top, just for weird things like this.

            I have no router, since my only internet runs thru my iPhone and iPads. No land line phone either. I have a portable WiFi for the computer that runs thru my phone and will work anywhere with cell service, but I almost never use it. Everything I ever need to do can normally be done with my phone.

            Thank you again for your help!

          25. E. B. says:

            Your are welcome. The Block Sender feature is supported in newer browsers only. Old OS like Windows XP will not run anything higher than Internet Explorer 8. I have just opened Gmail with IE8 and the Block Sender option is not there. You can create a *Filter* to send his emails to the Trash folder, though.
            I am sure your son will be able to help you. Good luck!

      11. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        HG, I have a question.
        My ex narc lives 5 min away from me (he moved in the neighborhood, I’ve recently found out, “lucky me!”).
        What’s the best/efficient approach possible if I find myself face to face with him one day? Completely ignore him or…?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Completely ignore him and move away promptly.

      12. gabbanzobean says:

        OMG that Simpsons reference. Thank you for putting the biggest smile on my face with that. You remembered that I am a huge fan. Yes the “ever presence” will ALWAYS be there with the Simpsons and him.

        The constant push and pull and tense conversations with him….the occasional respite crumbs I got when he would call me or I’d call him and all would be reset as we laughed together. I would always start the call with one of the pranks from Moe’s tavern and then spin it into something custom based on our conversation.

        Him: Hello there.
        Me: Hi…I am looking for Mr. Jass please. First name: Hugh.
        Him: Hold on a second. Let me check the men’s room for a Hugh Jass.
        (both of us trying to play it serious and control our stifled laughter)
        Me: This is not a prank call. I do not want to bail out. I want to talk to you.
        Him: I know. And I want to talk to you too.

        (In the show, the “Hugh Jass” actually comes to the phone as a person and takes the call and Bart says “sorry sir but this is a prank call that backfired and I would like to bail out now”…)…hence my spin of not wanting to back out of the phone call.

        ANYWAY….all of that aside it is still my all-time favorite show ever and no one is going to ruin that for me.

        Thank you for the smile.

        1. K says:

          My pleasure Gabs!
          I am glad you smiled and I never forgot that you were a huge fan of the Simpsons.

      13. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        HG Tudor, thank you!
        I’ll do as you say (and I totally agree) , keeping in my mind that my “hello” would only sound to him: “I invite you to take advantage of/abuse me.”

  24. gabbanzobean says:

    I chose 3 responses. Never loved me, never meant any of it (those 2 things kind of go hand in hand, least for me anyways)….and finally that he does not know what he is. (no insight to behaviors).

    The pain I feel every day that seems like it will never dissipate is that he never loved me or meant any of it. That it was all nothing and fake. The fact that he does not know what he is just makes those first 2 points hurt that much more.

    That no matter what he will never be satiated or happy. That he will, as K had commented, continue to fuck (literally as sex is his main way of getting fuel) the living fuel out of me and whomever else crosses his path that he is “attracted to sexually” (his words). But all it really is…is fuel. And he has no clue why and just thinks he enjoys sex and it is a morality “weakness”. Stuck in his mid-range fucker and actually thinking he is a kind and empathic person with a weakness for sex.

    All 3 of those choices hurt equally and they loop around to one another over and over.

    I think the poll should have had an “other” option. If it did I would also say that “the fact that * I * still love him and always will” also hurts just as much.

    1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


      you should be singing the following lmao




  25. Freedom45 says:

    Being so CRUEL !!! After 18 years of marriage and giving him all my support , time , help etc with most things in his life . I needed him for a change after my mum died . I looked after her till she died next to me in her own bed .
    I needed support for a change from him , he was distant and left me and three teen girls , before Christmas with no money towards bills no Christmas presents for children ,I’m suspecting with full intention of coming back , but his selfish plan backfired he crossed the line , no one does that to me , he tried and tried after few months , however my self respect kicked in and it was game over and no contact . Even though he pulled strokes in the past . Somethings I don’t have to forgive and this I’m not . No one is spending time with me who can vanish when I needed him the most , he doesn’t deserve me however painful it was at first which i was devastated , but time has healed that and now I look how free I am and think this was meant to happen in order for me to become who I was before I met him . So the cruel things they do which they can not see hurts the most , however people can only hurt you if you let them !! It really is that simple , he won’t get a chance to do it again .
    Best wishes everyone

    1. DebbieWolf says:

      Good for you F45.
      He doesn’t deserve you carrying on like that!!
      He is a disgrace.
      So sorry about your mum. That was very hard for you to go through and still to bear.
      I understand that. Lost mine too.
      After going through all that we see the the weakness in the narc.. because the strength it takes to deal with someone dying whom we love dearly stays at the fore with us.
      We deal with that and we can deal with most other things…the narcs look dim compared to that and show no light at all.
      Bless your heart. You have done so well. Best wishes to you too. As Christmas time comes around again and again I hope you find a gentle peace within you and that it may it abide with you when you need it to..now and always within your heart and mind.
      Stay strong. xx🛡

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        You’re very correct in all that you say. It is certainly true that we are much stronger than the narcs. They put on a great show of strength and tell themselves they can do anything, but when the tough, hard, nasty jobs come up – they slink away.

        I think this comes from the root of their selfishness. Bottom line is they only do what they want to do, even when getting the difficult jobs done is important to their own well-being. The narcs still often just disappear. Those of us who stay and do what needs to be done – we are the strong ones.

        1. DebbieWolf says:

          Hello WS2

          Agreed. They do as they please and disappear when we need them most.
          Screw that.
          No one wants a wimp.. not us anyway.
          We’ve got it all going on and if they can’t keep up that’s their problem not ours.
          Gnashing their supposed teeth..
          They’re nothing but gums in reality!
          At times it makes me sick.
          They haven’t got the copyright on contempt.

      2. Freedom45 says:

        Argh thankyou Debbie , yes I think my mum passing away possibly helped me through No CONTACT , it made me strong , she would be very proud that I escaped x best wishes to you too .
        I laughed out loud when you said he is a disgrace it just makes me laugh when we stick up for each other and call other partners . It’s good to support each other.

      3. Freedom45 says:

        Thankyou so much Debbie , I laughed out loud when you said he is a disgrace haha it makes me laugh when we call each other’s partners , rightly so as it gives us strength and support by sticking together .
        Yes my mum passing I feel really helped with the light bulb in my head that said “GAME OVER ” I just knew I was done . This strength just came . Only achievable through NO CONTACT though .
        I don’t remember last Christmas much it was a blur however this one will be different and thankyou again xx

      4. Freedom45 says:

        Hiya , apologies I submitted similar reply twice , haha I thought it didn’t work first time so obviously ignore one . Thanks

  26. Kelly KC says:

    HG, my answer will be 2 part as there were 2 narcissists. I was not heart broken from Narc #1, the husband, only so deprived sexually, intimately, and emotionally while he mentally, physically, and spiritually beat me down. Despite my spiritual beliefs, I opened the door to Narc#2 who had been pursuing me and eventually had an affair with Narc#2 but not until after Narc #1 was out of my house and his extra-marital affairs were confirmed. I only stayed with Narc#1 out of obedience and submission to God, and knew one day the proof of his infidelity would present itself but until then, I would make the best of it, loving him with the love of God, holding onto God’s truths, having a sense of caring one might have for someone on the street suffering, no romantic or kinship love in my own heart for him. I gave to him and helped him throughout 2 of the 3 years of the relationship/marriage until that day when Ms. Proof came along. I was relieved! But it was Narc#2 that broke my heart. I fell in love with him, despite myself. With Narc#1, there was never a sexual seduction stage, the sex was awful, I would curl up in fetal position and let out a silent scream when it was finished. He may have known this as he always gave me a few minutes after to myself. He most likely enjoyed knowing he was degrading me with his horrible sex. He was aged (beyond his years) and I assume must’ve grown very weary of sexual seduction which I believed he played out his entire youth. He meets the trauma criteria for the split. He would sex to seduce if absolutely necessary to gain control or meet a goal but I think knew unless you were starved, you wouldn’t want it. Kinda like how people will eat bugs if they are really emaciated and without hope of real food. He preferred to expend less energy and used “religion” to seduce me and probably used the same to prior unsuspecting women in these latter years of his. Yours and other videos, as well as my affair, though wrong, with Narc#2 at least prior to the manifestations of the less attractive games which were to come, have truly helped me to depersonalize the treatment of Narc#1 and truly observe it as his own gig and illness. But Narc#2 as stated, did his own damage eventually, which though not as outwardly obvious, and without the malice, hurt me much more. His seductions literally took my breath away! And I met them each time with an equal expression of my own intensity. It was this exchange, which I now assume was him giving back to me my own sensuality that drew me in and kept me. He was extremely alluring, sexually expressive, and intimately seductive. He was younger than I and beautiful physically and shared some of my adventurous ways. I have recently (12 days ago) escaped him for the 3rd time, he had also discarded me 2 times previously, and it was this heartbreak that drove me to investigating these 2 very different, yet familiar experiences. Narc#2 I believe had narcissistic traits, slightly more so that an a Normal prior to his car accident and then developed NPD after the brain injury. He seemed to lack the evil, blackened heart or split that Narc#1 (who I suspect is a Lesser with some Mid-Range tendencies) had. Narc#2 would lie, steal, and cheat but seemed to have an imaginary line or some level of conscious that prevented him from hurting someone too deeply but methodically utilized all of the tools in the narc bag; the gas lighting, bread-crumbing, mirroring, love bombing, benching, ghosting, silent treatment, and triangulation and he definitely enjoyed these games as he had a rather large ego and grandiose sense of self. Initially, when I gave in to Narc#2’s advances, I was so starved and broken I knew I could not have a real relationship as I needed to heal from the abuses of Narc #1, and I thought I would never fall in love with this guy and I’m sure he is only looking for just a good time. He was 14 years younger and so beautiful I thought he would want a woman his age to start a family, begin life with, not me, I would be of value to a Christian man in his 40s with children, established, wanting a mission partner, love for life, etc. so I rationalized my decision and both of our behaviors. I was very open and honest with Narc#2 about my struggles, my vulnerability, my thoughts about his place in my life and mine in his, and my marital situation and he appeared to accept it until he began to play the games. Initially, he nurtured me, gave me attention and affection, asking only for TLC in return until the day that Narc#1 came back into the scene in an attempt to destroy. I even attempted to protect Narc#2 from the abuse of Narc#1 by breaking up with Narc#2 but Narc#1 was determined to destroy him and I even if we were no longer together. Narc#1 put spyware on my phone and began an attack on Narc#2. He used projection, deception, and devaluation, along with threatening (which he never did to me, he always just out of nowhere did whatever it was to me) until Narc#2 began to believe some of what Narc#1 was saying. Narc#1 used technology such as audio editing apps, superimposing of photos, video clippings, etc. to convince Narc#2 that the real reason I broke it off with him was to return to Narc#1. Narc#2 retreated. Narc#1 had one small piece of ownership still over my freedom, at least for a time, as at the time of of my final escape from him, I retaliated and when he got physical, I hit him back, good. I left marks, he didn’t. I never feared Narc#1 but did not want to get violent with anyone. I was told by the police that he had up to a year to press charges on me and so not wanting to lose anymore than I had already (friendships, relationships, church families, respect, car, money, time, etc.) I bid my time. And though I did not let him back in my home, I was unable to do anything when he decided to come around which he did only to ensure Narc#2 would be convinced of his deceptions. After 5 months of this, September 22, freedom day came, and with no contact between Narc#2 and I, for that duration, I set out to find Narc#2 and we reconnected. At this time I knew nothing about narcissism and just believed that Narc #1 was sick and that Narc#2 and I were victims of his evil. But as time went on and there was no real progression in my relationship with Narc#2, and the time we spent became less or hindered by the aforementioned behaviors, I, heartbroken, began to look for answers and stumbled upon a video in my YouTube feed regarding narcissists. That is when I had my awakening. My most recent escape from Narc#2 was initially made with reluctance, as I still feel love for him and a sense of hope but for the first time my words to him had a finality to them that I believe he has picked up on and I was able though with so much struggle, to deny him sexually that last day which I could never have done prior despite that he really pulled out the big guns in that hoover but to no avail.

    So to sum it up, Narc#1 hurt me by using me as a resource and compost heap and this affected me in the area of self-esteem and trust, but not love. I do not, being apart from him, internalize or absorb any of those lies and abuse anymore as mine and thus no longer hurt. I cried for me, not him. But Narc#2 hurt me by betrayal of my heart, belief, hope, love, and intimacy for, in, of him. The latter of which is bittersweet but hurts more as my heart was invested in him and I hurt for us both.

    If I could ask, what do you think of the following of Narc#2:

    1. Could his narcissism be more treatable or helped if he were a Normal with a little more narcissistic traits than average prior to his brain injury and if the behavior only manifested as a disorder brought on by the accident and was not a result of childhood trauma splitting? Would this mean that he may be capable on some level of empathy?

  27. C★ says:

    the lies to me and about me…. perjury during legal proceedings and the fact that he was believed and never caught on those lies…

  28. Chingona says:

    I’m a serial narc-magnet. This one isnt the first, but he IS the last. The pain isn’t all that bad. How is that? I’m a super-empath, and manic-depressive. All my emotions run hot. The narc fuels my fire in return. That intensity is my norm anyway. Non-disordered romantic relationships aren’t interesting because only narcs seem to burn, however differently, from the inside out as well.

    I’ve been used, abused, used to hurt others, made homeless, etc. This last one, i knew from day one about his major malfunction. in the golden eras he rescued me from another lol narc… twice. he did a ton of helpful things, unless you’ve got money, women get exactly one year. i got a tad more. it was great fun, constant party, highly sexual, and, whether or not he meant it, at times very tender and comforting. i needed those sensations, so i don’t regret them. i always hit my limit, and completely 100%walk away, discarded or not. i’m stronger than all the ones i’ve met, and i proceed on my terms. so the pain isn’t so bad. i learned a lot about myself, narcs point out flaws… and i am growing into a better person because of it.

    what drove me the most nuts was the rote arguments and double standards. what HURT the most, and was one of two dealbreakers, was when his mom’s friend that he’s known for decades made it a point to touch him intimately in front of me, at two recent, consecutive dinner parties. i refuse to participate in triangulation.

    it’s a mixed bag, but truly, it’s easier for me because i’ve had other non-relationship trauma over the years that dwarfs my narcs’ impact. my ego won’t allow me to view myself as a victim. i accept that i find them irresistible, and thrilling, even knowing the pattern. they can’t make me wallow, im ultimately not controllable be im a controlfreak.
    thanks for listening

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      Chingona—i get the entire mixed bag you shared. thankyou.

  29. Nina says:

    The silent treatments and confusion ensuing from them. Not knowing the reason and constantly blaming myself and obsessively reliving everything I had done to figure out why.

  30. Kimi says:


    I’ve received an email from the current wife of an old boyfriend. He is a Narc, her world is crumbling and she is struggling to make sense of it all. She doesn’t realize that he is a Narcissist.

    I’ve directed her to http://www.Narcsite.com, but she hasn’t made the connection. Is there an article you would recommend that might open her eyes? I think she needs knowledge before she’ll engage in one of your books. I would appreciate your suggestions! Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      My immediate reaction was to suggest ‘Evil’ until I saw your comment re books. I would suggest you identify one of his manipulations e.g. not texting, or infidelity, or silent treatments and then send her a couple of articles about the relevant manipulation.

      1. Kimi says:

        Thank you very much HG! I’ll do as you suggest!

    2. Freedom45 says:

      Another possibility is HG on you tube , just to grab her attention , from what I can remember if your in the thick of it and feeling low, I was so stressed out so reading doesn’t always sink in , I couldn’t concentrate as I remember reading HG first and thought “this fella is properly annoying me haha ” saying he is one of them etc bla bla ….. obviously I think different now and he kind of saved me now !!!! also the page can be difficult to navigate if she is feeling low .she may feel like she doesn’t know where to start Sometimes we learn and pay attention by audio and visual , just a thought as I would like her to gain knowledge And get insight into what she is dealing with , so maybe just to grab her attention by suggesting HG being interviewed by the American women telling us what he is why they act that way etc . I remember paying attention from that day on , so glad I did ,so from thinking this fella is doing my head in to this fella is the best thing ever haha !!!!
      Just an idea but obviously I may have it wrong but thats what got my attention when I was feeling so bad . Couldn’t properly even focus on reading . Check with HG though this could be possibility . Then go to books after hearing him talk ????? Just saying this was the path I took and I’m now free and maintain NO CONTACT .

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Useful input.

      2. Kimi says:

        Brilliant Freedom45! I actually found HG through his YouTube videos, which eventually lead to Facebook then Narcsite.com. Great idea! Thank you!!!

      3. DebbieWolf says:

        Agreed Freedom 45..I am a utuber and that’s how I got here. The audio helped me firstly because it was heavy going reading when I was in the thick of it..now when I read HG its as though he is actually speaking..plus he writes in an easy clear style to follow…but definately listening to begin with is a very good route when emotionally exhausted.

      4. K says:

        I started out on YouTube too, and then made my way to the blog. It was easier to listen in the beginning because I was too dazed and confused initially.

    3. April says:

      What about HG’s video titled “I am a narcissist”… that should show her the pattern. https://youtu.be/-nEETYm2hu0. Much luck Hun. The quicker she realizes the quicker she gets help and HOPEFULLY avoid falling for the hoovers.

  31. E. B. says:

    What has hurt me the most was that they betrayed my trust.

  32. Windstorm2 says:

    My first was that nothing they said was real – and I don’t mean golden, good things. I mean all the negative abusive things that warped my childhood and have made my life so difficult. None of it was real. It was all just lies to manipulate me and make them feel better.

    My second wasn’t exactly listed. It was that they were all incapable of loving me. Not that they didn’t love me. I could get over that. But that they can’t ever love me or anyone. I feel sorrow over that every time I see any of them. I know I can not fix it, but it still saddens me for their loss and all the damage it causes to those around them.

  33. K says:

    I repeatedly told my MMRN: You chose a teenaged boy over your daughter and me. You chose to have an incestuous relationship with a child over your family.

    1. Nuit Étoilée says:

      Wow, K… I don’t know what to say..

      I guess there are some advantages to not knowing what’s really going on (i havent a clue but Im removed from the situation)

      I hope you recover fully & you & your daughter experience healthy love..

      1. K says:

        Thank you, Nuit Étoilée! We are doing much better now and everyday here makes a difference.

  34. Ginger says:

    So wonderful then so cruel is what caused the CPTSD. Which sucks . I don’t even think about him fondly or at all because of the destruction he caused in my life and those before me . The triggers suck and they are life altering . I have had to excuse myself from clients to compose myself. I am jaded that he still has control this way . He is a poisonous snake who protrayed me as narcissistic, which if setting him up within a love quadruple with all 4 of us and destroying his ego in front of the masses is narcissistic then so be it . Mid level greater lost control of this super sleuth. I’m really thankful to be out of the web. He has a new love who is In the mental health field 😮 and is sure he’s not a sociopath, because if course I tried to warn her … lol silly me. She will get her best education with his mind f. Heartbreak is her future. Very sad 😞

  35. Bibi says:

    For me, the cruelty would never have been so bad had he not been so damn nice sometimes. If he was just cruel all the time, then I would have just cut him out a long time ago.

    And the fact that he has zero insight into his behaviour and actually thinks he is the victim despite lying to me for years about his identity is annoying.

    I don’t feel any pain and haven’t for a long while now. He is a nobody. He does not matter. I just enjoy reading articles about deranged individuals.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      Bibi—yes. the back and forth has centrifical force. all bad and the tilt a whirl would come to a screeching halt. hop off the ride. refund please. but highs and lows. back and forth. round and round. that shit rocks. and when we step off it’s all shaky. ground is not solid. it takes a bit to shake that shit off and calibrate. no wonder we forgo all that and jump back on the carnival ride. done. earth is finally starting to feel safe and sound.

  36. Sally says:

    The realisation that he never meant any of it and never loved me hurts most of all. I told him at the start that I wanted children and not to do that would be a deal broker but he still stole the last of my childbearing years and now I will never be a mother.

    That he told his friends and family we were over because I was an unhinged alcoholic. That I was blissfully unaware of his smearing of me and understood we were in a ‘long distance relationship’ when in fact he was seeing four women behind my back – one of whom I’d had over for dinner at his insistence when we were living together because ‘we should be nice to people who are on their own’.

    That he publicly humiliated me in a bar on Christmas Day when another of his floozies actually introduced me as his ex-girlfriend when we were still together and they both laughed at me as tears streamed down my face.

    That he continued to deny it all even when I had spoken to one of them on the phone after finding text messages between them and then endured 6 hours of verbal abuse from her and her grown up daughters telling me he hated me and just wished I would drop dead which I nearly did after taking an overdose. He refused to come to hospital with me.

    Most of all I am hurt and angry with myself because I saw the red flags but ignored them as this conman led me like a lamb to the slaughter while I skipped gaily behind.

    He has utterly destroyed my faith in human nature I don’t think I’ll ever trust a man again. I would have thrown myself in front of a bus for him only to find that he’d thrown me under it instead.

  37. Scarlet says:

    I worked with a narcissist , I didn’t know it until after I’d been left the job for one year and was on this blog for help with a romantic relationship I got into only weeks after leaving that job . I still think the emotional state I was in from the work situation led me to being vulnerable and then walking into this nightmare that I’ve been in romantically . I was however completely clueless about personality disorders . I think the work maniac was a mid range and so is the romantic entanglement . I can see the work situation so clearly now and I realise that I must have been his worst nightmare because he tried to break me down and I stood up tohim so much and nobody does that with him EVER. It did take its toll on me though , and one year after I left that job he turned up at my house . Unbelievable !!!

    1. Dickforlong says:


      Ditto on the work narcs. Except mine was my boss. I NEVER responded emotionally to him. It would infuriate him. Once, as I turned to leave in the middle of his demand “we will work this out right now…” I stood arms folded and calmly asked him to let me know when he was finished. More tirade and rage… “Are you done? Can I return to work? After 3 installments and my remaining calm he finally just let me leave.

      He learned that day that he could nor COMMAND me yo engage in the craziness nor get to me emotionally.

      I had told him years earlier I would never discuss anything that mattered to me again after using a previous conversation to metaphorically kick me in the stomach when I was down.

      Him: I would like to think you can trust me and would give me another chance.

      Me: I will never give you the opportunity to hurt me again.

      Him: I try to support all my employees.

      Me: you don’t succeed.

      I left love narc after 13 years and proceeded to work for a narc for almost 6 years.

      They are EVERYWHERE! The bastards

  38. Elise says:

    I had never allowed a married man to get close to me. I felt compassion for the Narc and because of that I betrayed my values and became emotionally involved with him. I learned that keeping my integrity is more important to me than anything else in this world.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      Elise— #metoo on betraying my values and compromising my integrity. i cheated on myself.

  39. Bekah B says:

    That he could be so wonderful in one hour, making me laugh and smile and being so affectionate, but three hours later, is calling me stupid and walking away from me as I speak..

    That every time he initiated his hoovers and talked non-stop for 40 to 45 minutes at a time, telling me that he knows he’s not making me happy and that I deserve so much more and that he was going to try harder and be better this time around, just to come and find out he didn’t mean a single word of it..

    That he has absolutely no desire to change because he honestly feels he does nothing wrong.. He is completely unaware of what he is and what he’s been through as a child and how it has caused him to be the way he is now.. He can’t accept it, no matter the times I tried to tell him it’s true..

    That he chose “her” over me.. She taunts him and insults him as a man.. I was tender, considerate, understanding, and patient.. I never verbally lashed out at him and was always tactful in approaching him about EVERYTHING because he is hypersensitive.. But he chose her over me..

    That he doesn’t love our daughter.. She is the cutest, funniest, and most cheerful little baby ever in this world, but he’s absent from her life because of his selfish desires.. He doesn’t love her and he probably never will.. She will never grow up knowing him as her father..

    That he left me and our daughter for “her”.. And now she is expecting a child of their own.. I wanted him to be there for me and our daughter, but he will now be there for “her” and their child.. It hurts.. Bad.. Every single day..

    1. K says:

      Bekah B
      That was absolutely heartbreaking to read and I am very sorry for what you are going through. Devastating. Love your daughter, stay here and learn how to get better. It will take time.

      1. Bekah B says:

        Thank you so much for your kind words, K..

  40. Coco says:

    I would never be able to articulate the pain it has caused me to realize that my ex husband the covert narcopath didn’t love me, and that he doesn’t love our children. This realization has been soul crushing.

  41. S says:

    It came from having to process that he never loved me. That all he intended to do was use me drive me insane and have me end my life.

  42. Laurie Zelaya says:

    I bought into the narc’s ‘future faking’, became exclusively involved with the narc and moved in together with my children. The abuse that ensued during those 6 years affected my children deeply; his abuse was directed towards me but his manipulation was widespread.

    The impact on my children is the most hurtful part.

    We left the narc, moved out 6 months ago but my children are only now opening up about the depression and even suicidal thoughts they felt while being in the abusive presence of the narc.

    While I’m recovering and healing, it’s harder for my children to do so, mainly the younger of the two. She was receptive to him coming into our lives and had hoped he’d be a true father figure and we’d be a happy family unit; it became obvious that he did not truly want that, but only the ability to control, demean and keep us ‘under his thumb’.

    He doesn’t deserve forgiveness for the intentional damage he’s done, no matter how much he tries to feign remorse. I’m not buying into that hoover; I’m not the same person I was and can’t be duped again as easily.. becoming educated about sociopathic narcissism has empowered both myself and my children; this gift has saved our lives without a doubt.

    1. Blank says:

      I give you a big hug and hope the best for you and your children XX

    2. Yolo says:

      Congrats, on your escape. I am really touched by your sharing how this abuse has also affected your children. Sometimes, we dont realize the harm ot causes them until its too late.

      Family counseling may help as well, i wish i had sought counseling when my son was younger after I escaped a pyschopath.

      Continued Healing and Peace

  43. Super Empath says:

    Hey HG, one selection not on your list!

    –I am to blame.

    What hurts me the most, and I am coming to terms with it all, is I saw the ‘red flags’ and ignored them because I was in-love. I allowed myself to be duped, manipulated, controlled and turned into something I wasn’t.

    The day after the marriage I read the prenup and found out what he had done and the utter betrayal of it all, was again, my fault. I didn’t read it, trusted his every word and blindly signed it. I was going to divorce him that very day. Downloaded all the necessary annulment paperwork and had it filled out, signed and all he had to do, when he got home, was sign it.

    He protested it was boilerplate (bullsh!t), blamed his attorney took liberties with the document he hadn’t asked for (bullsh!t), claimed he signed the wrong document (bullsh!t) and pretended to go through the steps of repairing it (bullsh!t). A barrage of emails, texts and conversations ensued with different versions, false promises ALL full of deception.

    Of course, all his tactics AND LIES worked and I tore up the paperwork, forgave him and allowed him to repair it – as he promised (bullsh!t). (Ergo where all the emails and texts originated from I plan to produce in divorce court.)

    So, yea, I am to blame for all of it, I accept it.

    1. C★ says:

      i continue to blame myself as well…. ignored many red flags

      1. Yolo says:

        Most of us ignored those big red fire truck lights. 😊 Now we know to get out of the way. We can’t spend the rest of our lives blaming ourselves, living in our own hell. (Jail) You were conned a target because of your beautiful qualities. One of many life lessons learned.

        We had no idea invasion of the body (soul) snatcher was real. 😊😊 Movie reference.

        I am guilty of of blaming and judging myself.

        Continued Healing…

    2. Yolo says:

      Accept responsibility for your part. But, be kind to yourself. The cognitive dissonance they cause limits our ability to think and react logically. Congrats on getting out and moving forward.

  44. Catherine says:

    Another great and interesting poll!

    I must admit I ticked quite a few of those boxes. The pain of it all comes in so many forms, it’s hard even to say what is what. But I guess the mind blowing deceit in itself hurts the most. That we were never in it on the same terms, that his was a hidden agenda that had nothing whatsoever to do with the love and the soul mate I was longing for, that I was duped to believe that he truly loved me. I think this is so because as I was suffering his abuse my number one excuse to myself for staying put was love. Heaven knows, I’m not an expert at love at all, but I never ever felt that strongly for anyone before so I thought that must be it. I utilised all my childhood tools of addiction to pain, of drama lived and relived, and what I was doing was a reenactment of my early years I suppose (and not the true love at all), but I did with all my heart think I’d finally found love.

    Also, the hurt of him not really ever gaining insight into what he was doing, portraying himself as a victim of my fictional unfaithfulness, is still so real and tangible to me. I still can’t grasp it.

    And finally, the incredible hurt of there never being any closure. Right now that hurts as hell. That there was just this kind of explosion between us, but no closure. In my heart I still long for him. The logical tools of knowledge I’ve gained here helps me to understand that there never will be a closure, but my heart still doesn’t get it. If there only was some kind of definite end to it all it would be easier to move on.

    1. Anne says:

      The longing you feel for him will gradually abate. It took me a good two years but now I can look at a picture of him without crying. And I know his heart is evil and unredeemable.

      1. Catherine says:

        Thank you Anne, I guess it will take some more time. I haven’t even reached six months without him yet, and it seems the pain of it passes in cycles. In the beginning complete devastation of course, but then I had a couple of months of getting on with my life, feeling more positive. And then there was a backlash. Now I feel calm, I don’t feel this all consuming need for him any longer, the addiction is slowly loosening its grip on me, but there’s still such emptiness, sorrow, like I’m stuck grieving. Was it like that for you too?

  45. Blank says:

    What hurts me most is that I can’t prevent the narc from doing evil to other women in his life. I know he will hurt them badly and this thought just makes me sick. I feel that I should do something, but I can’t, I don’t know who they are going to be. Can’t get this out of my mind.

    1. Yolo says:


      I feel the same way. I will like to see them all exposed. Unfortunately, most will have to go through it as we have. I was obsessed at one point at exposing narcs not only these ones I’ve encountered. I have radical acceptance now that it out of my control and the best i can do is share this site.

      Peace and Continued Healing

    2. Iconoclast says:

      Even if you knew his next victim you could not help her.
      The ‘next’ does not listen for narcs lay the future by smearing the past.

  46. Stumbling Around says:

    That I was thrown away like an empty crisp packet, but it was my fault (of course). The awful realisation that it was all lies. Then the learning curve, and understanding that I’d been tenderised by my Narcissist Father. Accepting that I’m an Empath, and I’m never going to be the person I was.

  47. Findinglife11 says:

    No insight. Bc that affects everything else.

  48. Brandy says:

    Though I do not hurt after many years I do believe the silent treatment hurts them the most, puts them straight into the confusion mode.

  49. 12345 says:

    It was easier for me to recognize that my mother never loved me but I go back and forth between accepting it. Now that I have a daughter, it’s unfathomable to me. Being chosen to be her mom is the single greatest thing that has ever happened to me. Not for my mom. We kept her from her fullest potential.

    The most pain has come from the ex greater in my life. I would’ve told ANYONE and did tell many that his love for me was rock solid while being picked up and placed back on the shelf throughout 30 years. What? The idiocy of that still is unbelievable to me. But, there I was defending his love for me. Accepting that and hearing the brutal truth from HG was really painful. Not one single person ever told me that except HG. All my friends would say, “oh, he definitely loves you, he just compartmentalizes.” No matter what was said I clung to believing that he loved me.

    I don’t believe that anymore but there are times when I look back and think about how convincing he was. I thought this man loved me so much that he’d donate a kidney to me if I needed it. This is the same man who had an affair with a woman diagnosed with end stage lung cancer and than hid at home with his healthy wife as soon as hospice arrived the week the woman died.

    But, not me. His love for me was real.

    1. Anne says:

      Exactly. Because I told my family what a great man my ex was and how much I loved him they don’t believe me now when I try to explain the verbal and emotional abuse and narcissism generally. My sister will only believe what she sees with her own eyes. That hurts almost as much as what my ex did.

  50. JW says:

    I hurt from the silent treatment.

    1. BlueOcean says:

      Yes I agree the silent treatment and all the insecurity all the time, + the stage of the cruel devaluation.

    2. Gabrielle says:

      Your initials are the same as my Narc. I really hope it’s just an eerie coincidence. 😕

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