The Wrong No Contact


No Contact.

This is what anybody who has been a victim of our kind must achieve. Whether that status of victim stems from being a friend to a narcissist where you are taken for granted, used when the narcissist needs a lift or someone to moan to or whether it is the beaten down and trampled Intimate Partner Primary Source who was wife, boyfriend or partner has endured and suffered extensive abuse, no contact is the antidote.

Building that robust and effective wall of no contact can be difficult. It is time consuming, requires rigour and perseverance and not only are you trying to repel the advances of the narcissist who is trying to breach your no contact regime, you also have to fight against yourself and your emotional thinking which is trying to make you breach no contact as well. Indeed, it is often your emotional thinking which proves to be the harder enemy to conquer and it is not a one-off battle. Your emotional thinking, because of who you are and the emotional infection your engagement with the narcissist has caused, means that this is an ongoing battle which requires your repeated vigilance. Through the application of understanding and building your Logic Defences, the task does become easier, but it is not one which goes away. Like any wall, it must be checked, maintained and patrolled, otherwise holes and breaches occur and the narcissist will impact on you once again.

Time and time again I see people who think they have put in place no contact and they have not. Sometimes it almost beggars belief that the victim thinks they have established no contact – it is obvious they have not. In other instances you could be forgiven (if forgiveness was something I gave) for thinking you have implemented no contact but in actual fact you have not. There are many instances where people think they have instigated no contact and all they have done is embark on The Wrong No Contact. Here are just a few of the many ways in which you might be getting no contact wrong and the risks that come with this.

  1. Looking At Social Media

Just because the narcissist does not explicitly know you have looked at his or her social media does not mean this is no contact. Indeed, we rely on you doing so and expect you to look at our social media, that is why in certain instances you are not blocked from looking at our Facebook account, Twitter feed, Instagram and so forth. We want you to look at it. Just because you are not interacting directly with us, just because you are not commenting and we are not replying, just because you are not adding likes – this is not no contact. If you are looking at our social media you are likely to see indirect jibes made about you, Relationship Bulletins about your replacement, reminders of the golden period and even direct attacks against you. This will result in :-

  • a risk you will be upset, hurt, angry
  • the maintenance of the emotional infection because you are thinking about us
  • a surge of emotional thinking which may cause you to contact us to attack us for our barbed comments towards you, to seek answers when you are upset about the reminder of an anniversary or similar
  • stopping you from moving forward

2. Not Blocking Our Number

You may think that it will be the first thing you will do when you commence no contact. You block our number from your telephone and mobile phone so that we cannot call or text you from the relevant number. Of course we may get around this by using a different device therefore that is why you are better served by changing your telephone numbers, but if you do not change the numbers then you ought to block the new number of ours which appears and keep doing so, like a matador dodging the on rushing bull each time to avoid harm.

Nevertheless, the number of occasions I see people who claim they are no contact but they have not blocked our number is higher than you might think. These people think that if they, as victim, do not contact us, then that is no contact. No, it is not. Of course, those people who do not block the number are giving in to their emotional thinking because they WANT the narcissist to contact them.

If you do not block our number, this is not no contact. One of the easiest hoovers for us to perform is to text you. It uses no effort, it brings with it a reduced consequence of wounding (say compared to ringing you on the telephone or seeing you in person) and allows the drawing of fuel. If you do not block our number, you are lowering the hoover bar to such a low level that hoovers are more or less inevitable.

The emotional thinking of victims tells them things such as :-

  • It is over, there was a ‘final discard’ he will never contact me anyway;
  • If she does text me, I won’t reply and that will wound her, so actually I am ‘winning’;
  • There might be an emergency and therefore I cannot block him

Utter rubbish.

There is no such thing as a final discard. We will contact you, subject to the Hoover Trigger being activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria being met. If you do not block us, this is going to happen. You will be hoovered.

If you allow a text through, you are maintaining the emotional infection and you will suffer a surge in emotional thinking which may very well result in you responding and before you know it, you are not only providing fuel but you are being drawn back into the Formal Relationship. Months later you will ask ‘how the hell did that happen?’ Every text which arrives adds more and more to your emotional thinking until such time that you can no longer resist. Oh, I hear your protestations that you can resist but i have witnessed such resolve melt away. If you are playing Russian roulette and pull the trigger once and do not blow your brains out, you have survived. Pick the gun up again and again and again and eventually you will kill yourself. This is the similar effect of repeatedly engaging with us by allowing those texts through – you WILL succumb.

So what if there is an emergency? I know you are kind, decent and honest but we are no longer your concern in that respect. You need to remind yourself that you have no obligation towards us (of course our perspective will make us tell you differently) and therefore that False Suicide Power Play Hoover is not something you have to deal with. If you co-parent establish a mechanism whereby the narcissist e-mails routine communication to you. You tell the narcissist in advance that you will check the e-mails once a week at a set time  and never deviate from this. This way you cater for communication regarding the children but only expose yourself once a week to potential hoovers. When the narcissist realises this is being done, see how the hoover attempts diminish. If you need a mechanism for emergency communication, tell the narcissist to contact a third party who will then contact you. Use this gate keeper.

3. Keeping our telephone number

You may say that you will not use it and therefore think that this is no contact, but once again, this is not no contact. With our number sat in your phone, even if you have changed the description to ‘Arsehole Number One’ , ‘Shit 4 Brains’ or ‘Narcopath’ you are creating problems :-

  • You see the name and number and you are then reminding yourself of us and thus this is a form of Ever Presence ;
  • You are leaving open a gateway. There will be an occasion when your emotional thinking surges and causes you to try to contact us. If our number if there you will use it and message us or ring us. If there is no number, you cannot call us.

Do not come up with the nonsense of ‘I have memorised the number so I will remember it anyway so what difference does it make if I keep the number in my phone?’ Bollocks. Your memory is fallible and over time if you have not used our number, you will eventually forget it altogether or at least get some numbers mixed up. If it is still in your directory, you will ring it.

Delete that number. Do it and do it immediately.

4. Talking to friends and family about us

You may think that because you are not engaging with us directly then this must mean no contact is in place. It is not in place if you continue to talk about us to your friends and your family. This is causing you to engage with us, albeit indirectly. All this does is result in :-

  • You continuing to think about us with the consequential impact on your emotions;
  • The continued feeding of the emotional infection which you should be purging, not feeding ;
  • Allowing your emotional thinking to surge with the risk this may control you once again and you end up contacting us or succumbing to a direct hoover with all that follows from that

It is of course inevitable that you will discuss the situation with your family and friends especially when you do not understand what you are dealing with. However, once you realise you are dealing with a narcissist then there does not need to be any more discussion. If you are not sure whether the person is, do not discuss it with your family and friends, they invariably have no idea whether the person is or not, they have no expertise. Indeed, they may well be revelling in joining in the ‘narc hating’ sessions which are actually not helping you at all. Alternatively, they may well be sick of hearing you going on about him or her and want you to shut up, but tolerate it out of a sense of loyalty. If you are unsure, ask me and I will give it to you straight, one way or the other.

Once you know, you go.

No more debating it with your best friend. No more mulling it over with your football mates after the game in the pub. No more ‘ifs and buts’ discussions with your parents. This person is a narcissist and you are not to dedicate any time to discussing this person. If you have to discuss an arrangement concerning the narcissist because they are collecting the children from your parents, then that is allowable but keep it to that. You do not need to tell people what the narcissist did or said. All you are doing is repeating this person is a narcissist, you already know this, they already know this, so why keep going on about it?

You do it because your emotional thinking wants you to do so. It wants you poring over the latest misbehaviour because it craves the horrified gasps from your friends or looks of disapproval from your mother. You do not need these responses.

Do not talk about us. Explain to your friends you do not want the narcissist spoken about to you. If they try to do so, politely explain again that this person means nothing to you anymore and therefore there is no need to talk about them.

5. Watching what we are doing

You may make the intelligence agencies proud of your covert observation of us as you watch where we go, who we are with and what we are doing. You do not need to do this. Again, once you know what we are, get out and stay out. Yes, I understand it is so tempting to know what we are up to, are we seeing someone else, what does he or she look like, why are we going to these places but all you are doing is succumbing to your emotional thinking which is conning you into maintaining a link with us.

Your emotional thinking will tell you that it is permissible to engage in this behaviour because you are not contacting us directly, you are merely observing. These are examples of your emotional thinking conning you into thinking this stalking and observation is a good idea

  • You are gathering evidence to tell other people what we are doing to confirm what you have told them previously (you do not need to – you know what we are, that is all you need, you do not have to persuade other people)
  • You are gathering evidence for a court case (you do not have to do it – hire somebody to do this or if you cannot afford to do that, have a friend or family member do it – also question whether you really need to this evidence)
  • You want to know who the narcissist is seeing so you can warn this person about us (part of your decent nature but unnecessary – you owe the new person no such obligation to warn then and in any event it is unlikely you will be believed because of the smearing we will have done against you)
  • You just need to know for your own piece of mind (utter nonsense, you do not need to know at all)

Recognise these sleights of mind by your emotional thinking and act on them.

If you keep watching us, all you are doing is

  • Creating harmful emotions that impact on you
  • Keeping the emotional infection alive and growing
  • Causing your emotional thinking to surge so you contact us directly
  • Being spotted by us and suffering a hoover (benign or malign)
  • Being spotted by us and being on the end of a restraining order or similar for harassment etc

These are just five examples of The Wrong No Contact. There are many more. Be alert for them, recognise them and understand why you are not implementing no contact. Stop letting your emotional thinking con you.

Once you know, you go.

Get out, stay out.

426 thoughts on “The Wrong No Contact

  1. Bee says:

    I’m curious if you think that the issuing of a restraining order by the police would be considered breaking no contact, and whether the (probably mid range/ upper mid range, possibly even greater) narcissist would consider this as a form of fuel?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Obtaining a restraining order is a prudent step where it is supported in law and by evidence. The seeking of the same will of course necessitate a breach of no contact (you have to think about the narcissist, deal with the evidence and thus in relation to the narcissist and you may well have some form of interaction/communication with the narcissist). However, those are limited and short-lived legitimate breaches to achieve the restraining order. Once that is obtained, the no contact regime can be implemented.

      As to what the narcissist thinks in relation to a restraining order, do see the article “Showing Restraint”.

    2. Holly says:

      We feel as if we have to monitor our preteen stepchildren’s text messages to keep up with the narc’s (their mother’s) alienating behavior. We document her specific attempts to undermine us to the kids or to encourage them to spy on us, disrespect us, or disobey us. We feel we need this to share with our attorney and the kids’ therapist. But sometimes, I feel we are only feeding her, as you said. Suggestions?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Documenting the evidence will not feed her. It then depends what you are doing with this evidence. If you are brandishing it to her as an example of poor behaviour, then you will be providing Challenge Fuel. If you use it as the basis of a court application to reduce her contact with the children this will wound her but it has a more constructive outcome in terms of striving towards a better no contact regime. I would recommend that you access the How To CoParent With a Narcissist, Assistance Package and organise a consultation so I can provide you with bespoke assistance.

  2. Lori says:

    I’ve done it. The last channel of contact was blocked yesterday. I was on the shelf painted white or black I don’t know but I haven’t spoken to him in nearly 2 years. I have received many provocations which i used to respond to but in the last 6 months I just stopped. Blocking this last channel was the final step. So does that mean I have escaped? That’s why I was asking whether How does no contact fells part 1 pertains to an IPSS? After 4 years, have I finally escaped ?

    As always, I thank you for your responses. It’s taken me quite awhile but I’ve done it. He can’t reach me

    1. K says:

      Congratulations Lori!!!

  3. Lori says:

    Thank you. Does How No Contact Feels Pt 1 also pertain to this.

    I finally just said enough. Does that constitute an escape while on the Shelf ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      How No Contact Feels appertains to escaping the Lesser Narcissist and the Lesser Narcissist´s response.

      Saying “enough” is not escape. Implementing no contact is the escape.

      1. Lori says:

        Well surprise ! I blocked Wednesday and lo and behold yesterday Friday a fake friend request. While it was someone allegedly local, it’s highly suspect. I mean what are the odds ? Seriiously ? I was talking with a friend about how many fake requests I get and she said geez you get a lot of those and she has twice as many friends as I do. I swear to god I think he is stealing people’s profiles that are local to where I am friending some of their friends who unknowingly accept all in attenpt to make it look legit as he knows I would never accept someone I don’t know who is not from my area. Is that something a narc that got blocked would do ?

  4. Lori says:

    So today I did it. After receiving what I feel was a provocation thru his new ipss and a mutual friend, j blocked the fake profile he’s been blocking and unblocking me from. I’ve finally had enough of the nonsensical games and just did it. My question is how will HE react to this ? Does he just go about his business or should I expect that mat do something. He is a lesser. and hes been prevoking me for nearly 2 years. Today was the day I just said shut the door and lock it enough is enough. He just unblocked me for the 3rd time 2 months ago of course I didn’t react and coincidentally or not so coincidentally, I got a provocation over the weekend thru his new ipss my replacement and I just said thats it no more of this. What should I expect from a Lesser where I was a shelf ipss?

  5. Kimberly Hayes says:


    Would coming to your site and learning about the narcissist be considered wrong contact too?

    Shouldn’t a “victim” completely remove themselves of any situation/website that makes them get emotional about the narcissist?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No because how else are you going to move forward. Valid question of course. Like any course of treatment, there can be side effects, and getting triggered or emotional is a consequence for some of reading my work, but it is also this work which WILL give you understanding and WILL achieve freedom for you. The thousands of emails I have thanking me for assisting people in that regard bear testament to that.

      1. Mel says:

        Why are you helping is this fueling your Nar supply? No disrespect I am just curious.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Already answered many, many times.

          1. No, it is not for fuel – please read the book Fuel and it will then make sense to you and save my fingers.
          2. I find weaponizing empaths to be entertaining.
          3. I want to set straight inaccuracies about my kind.

  6. Nicolette says:

    I Dont want this to happen .i dont want him

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good for you.

  7. RJ says:

    Wow, I was offline for a bit and was reading the comments. Had to search around the blog to find out WTF happened. So if someone is constantly asking about you and your interests to use against you in the future where is the no contact. Someone gets the question and someone gets an answer. Where is the no contact. Wanting the opportunity to talk about yourself to them, just to piss them off. Again where’s the no contact? Don’t bother with them. Go real NC. Forcing revenge is not an option, I have been there. You only consume yourself and waste time, (I aged 3 years in one year). Hoover happens, you’re cornered, no way out,then talk about yourself till they dislike it. Or just walk away. They aint shit anyways.

  8. Ugotit says:

    Im so confused just read Gabrielle and Dr q left when how why and where I was only off the blog a few days what posts did this happen in

  9. Ugotit says:


  10. Iris says:

    Yep we are all just one handshake away from Obama ;-).

    (I can’t type Trump there, because my stomach isn’t strong enough 😉 )

  11. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Hi Windstorm2 and Jenna,

    Ta for your replies.

    So sad about you and your hubby. Just sex! Yuk 🤢You didn’t get the romance and all that goes with it. 😞
    All males should be “taught” how to treat women in the “boudoir” … seriously!
    I used to hug my kids endlessly as babies, I’m such a marshmallow.
    You’re a cutie pie Windstorm2 ☺️

    Awe … I’ll take your hug anytime …Mr Tudor wouldn’t appreciate it anyhoo. Haha
    They could hire me out at airports for free arrival and departure hugs 🤗

    1. Jenna says:


      “They could hire me out at airports for free arrival and departure hugs 🤗”

      Soooo cute!!!💗💗💗

    2. Windstorm2 says:

      Thank you! Don’t feel sorry for me though! True I missed out on knowing what good sex is like, but I least I was never tricked. I knew what he was really like from the very beginning! No golden period, but then no horrible sense of loss when it got yanked away either.

      They used to tease me when I was a small child because I said I wanted 10 children, so I’d have a family to play with and love me. I stopped at 4, but like you, my children and now grandchildren have filled my life with happiness, joy and love. They are truly my greatest blessings!

      And like you, I am a “hug” fiend! I got to hug 3 sisters in law and a niece today, and that filled me with joy!

      1. Jenna says:


        Good sex is overrated anyways. Even with a non-narc, the passion fades, and it becomes boring lol. I’d rather eat chocolate!

  12. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Iris,
    Thank you for your reply.
    Aaaaaaarrrrhhh …. the “kinky lawyer” (you’re into spanking) 😂

    I used to try and be a “perfectionist”, sooo exhausting. I like “easy” now. Haha
    When I “comment”, sometimes my past becomes the present, because I currently have a narc in my life. My head doesn’t know if it’s coming or going mouth and head do shorthand…. at the same time . 😂
    Doesn’t help either when I comment early in the morning or late at night, as I’ve either not had my coffee and still half asleep or I’ve had too many martoonies.😂
    Get out … my nephew if half Dutch… so we’re almost related … 😂
    Small world eh ?

  13. thepianist20 says:

    Another awesome article, HG! 👌

    Now I understand why the narc didn’t block me 😎

    I feel like a Queen now 👸

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  14. Iris says:

    “Feel” must be “felt”.

    Grrrr why can’t I change something here?

    I suddenly feel the need to spank somebody ;-).

    1. Bubbles🍾 says:

      Hi Iris,
      Are you a teacher?

      1. Iris says:

        Haha no Bubbles, but I can see why you’d think that way.

        I’m a lawyer, so professionally it’s important that I express myself correctly (verbally as well as on paper), just like a teacher.

        And I’m a perfectionist, so I don’t like it when I see a mistake that I can’t correct.

        I know that it’s impossible for me to be 100% correct in English as I’m Dutch, but I’m still aiming for perfection I guess.

  15. Tappan Zee says:

    The facts may not support the feeling, but you feel that way anyway, yes?

    ^ YAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSS. my whole issue.

    1. Jenna says:


      “The facts may not support the feeling, but you feel that way anyway, yes?”

      I always find it cute when u end ur question w ‘yes’. May i hug u? Ok, i’m backing off. U hate hugs i know!

      1. K says:

        admiring words have a higher point value over loving gestures: stunning, masterful, charming, bold, exciting, breathtaking, etc.
        I know you know this, jenna. You make me smile when you want to hug HG.

      2. Iris says:

        I like this typical British way of speaking too, Jenna.

        Haven’t feel the urge to hug him though 😉

      3. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Hi Jenna,
        My narc friend couldn’t handles hugs, made him feel very awkward.
        I’m the hugger of all huggers …. luv luv luv hugs. Probably because I never received them when I was growing up. My husband and I make it a point to give each other multiple hugs every single day without fail.
        Hugs to you too

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          I know what you mean about loving hugs. I was never hugged at all as a child and had no idea what it would feel like. When I was 16 and got to know my grandmother, she would hug everyone when they came to see her and when they left. Even my mother (her daughter) would hug her and smile and seem happy – when of course she would never touch me.

          I came to really enjoy and crave those hugs from my grandmother. My husband of course was like HG describes and didn’t like to be touched, but I taught all my children to hug me when they come and go. Now the grandchildren do as well. These hugs, infrequent as they are now, are still a highlight of my life! Same thing with handholding. I love when little children hold my hand when we’re out walking. These little loving gestures are about my only physical contact with other humans and I cherish them. Probably why I don’t mind rocking babies for hours at a time. 😊

      4. Jenna says:

        K and bubbles,

        I guess i know admiring words would have a higher point value. I esp love this example: “masterful”! 😄

        But sometimes i forget, and when hg does cute stuff like end sentences w ‘yes’ i feel like hugging him, YES?

        So sweet that ur hubby and u give each other hugs daily. Hugs back to u bubbles! 💗
        I will hug u instead of hg!

        1. K says:

          Masterful is a nice one and so are these: powerful, fearless. seductive, and incomparable, however, your virtual hugs to HG make me smile which gives me “happy fuel” so HG’s lower fuel value is my gain.

          My MMRN hugged everybody and I thought it was odd. It must have been a character trait from his empath dad because my MMRN was warmer and fuzzier than I (ersatz affection). He mirrored really well.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            Ha,ha! No not mine! My exhusband never wanted to hug, cuddle, kiss – any touching other than just sex. Not even in the beginning! If I tried to hug him or hold his hand, he’d shrug n shake me off! 😄

  16. mb says:

    Thank you so much for taking the time to answer, I have read 2/3rds of the list of books you suggested, will read the rest asap. I do read your articles daily to build my strength ‘database’ Thank you for the good advice. I am working up the courage to have a consult😊

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for reading, you are doing the right thing in building your knowledge base. You do not need to be wary of me in a consultation, I don’t bite.

      1. mb says:

        HG , literal power failure problems my area so delayed reply to you ..😊 . ( thank you for the response) ( not that you’re waiting with bated breath lol) the problem’s on my end, you are the consummate host , my ‘used -to -be -normal’ confidence is in the can after 7 yrs of N abuse hard to describe the contrary feeling of wanting/ needing help yet being also tired & disgusted at the ‘victim’ mindset I seem to be in post escape. It’s like I’m weak & need help but I hate the weakness and who I ‘am’ now. I feel overwhelmed at times emotionally with fear and hopelessness . All I did was take ‘pity’ on ‘his heart’ putting it first 7 years ago , and for that I get crushed and he continues to with the tiny amount of email contact I had regarding income taxes financial matters mid divorce he’s smearing me to everyone, passive aggressive insults,changing facts , so toxic I get anxious inside – he’s causing damage from afar . Yes. I do need a consult. Just embarrassed , angry, wonder if the new self loathing for falling for giving love to this imposter who seems to have so much hate disguised as love will leave. I’ve lost my first ( wonderful) husband and father of my wonderful girls to an anyeurism , battled cancer , almost died many times, yet THIS ( loving & now escaping N) is the hardest most painful soul killing thing I’ve experienced in my life. Hard to explain to ppl we turn to for support who never experienced it themselves. ACON mid level ‘I’m the abuser’ ex yet he signs the man all ‘loving you’ after he shreds me to outsiders. Thanks again HG there’s nothing like what you’ve chosen to provide here. Will contact for consult toward end of month ($) shortage from battling N . Don’t want my ‘temporarily damaged’ psyche in control anymore I miss my pre narc State.

        1. Jenna says:


          My condolences to u and ur family for the loss of your husband. I wish u strength, continued knowledge, and healing. 🌸

  17. Iris says:

    Yes HG, I’m glad you understood, even if it’s just from a logical perspective.

    I can feel her feelings even when I don’t know her at all. I just picture her in my mind and I am her. Strange isn’t it?

    1. Bubbles🍾 says:

      Dear Iris,
      Hi there and welcome. I’ve been reading a lot of your comments here, to ing and fro ing with everyone. I don’t really understand what’s happening.
      May I please ask you how we can help and interact in a positive healing way so we can all benefit with you ?

      1. Iris says:

        I’m not sure I understand what you mean exactly. There is nothing going on as far as I’m concerned, but thanks for your concern though.

        I’m the kind of person that acts rather enthusiastically to something new, many too enthusiastically for some.

        Didn’t want to upset anyone with all of my posts. I will try to temper my enthusiasm.

        1. Narc Angel says:


          No need to temper your enthusiasm in my books-Id rather have the real deal. Commenting always leaves you open for response and/or discussion as you have seen first hand, but thats one of the great things about being here-no longer being silenced and being able to voice and share your views-as long as you are willing to allow responses that match your enthusiasm. You need not adopt them of course. I think it allows is to ‘see’ a bit of each other and the commenters have taught me much in addition to the articles and books.


      2. Jenna says:


        “May i pls ask u how we can help and interact in a positive healing way so we can all benefit with you?”

        ^this comment to iris is so damn cute!! 💗🌷💗🌷💗

  18. Iris says:

    (I like to comment something in the discussion whether or not Gulia was ignored by you or bulled by the other members, if I may HG?

    Could you place it in the right place in the discussion, as there seems to be no opportunity for me there to reply directly (or maybe I’m not looking in the right place for it?)?)

    I’ve noticed that the regular girls are very protective of you HG and I can understand that it feels very intimidating for someone to receive all these defensive comments at the same time.

    As I have mentioned before, I was bullied big time at a forum some time ago and I can remember feeling very intimidated by the regular people at that forum and I often felt cornered by them, even if they weren’t actually doing something wrong.

    After a while I even felt paranoid, as everyone was denying my feelings. My bullshit meter was telling me that something was wrong, but I didn’t know anymore whether or not I could trust it or not.

    I get the feeling that Gulia feels the same way as I did back then, so maybe people here could cut her some slack for a while? This is a safe haven for everyone, is it not?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is Iris but let’s have some clarity here :-

      1. Giulia’s comment was unjustified. There was no factual basis for it. Her question was
      (a) not obvious (I am not the only one to have stated that); and
      (b) did not make sense

      furthermore her response to not having ONE question answered was disproportionate and showed entitlement when there ought to have been none.

      2. Accordingly, because it was so obviously unmerited other people saw this and commented. This was not bullying. Is it bullying when someone is in the wrong and they are told that this is the case? Is it bullying for someone to express their opinion and do so in a fair fashion? No it is not.

      3. The regular readers (of which Giulia is one) are supportive of me and respectful but they are not fools. If they disagree with me, they will tell me. If they disapprove of something I have written, they will tell me. They do not blindly line up to defend me.

      4. Those that did support my position did so not out of being very protective of me but they did so because they could see, like I could, that Giulia’s response was unmerited. Nor did they do it because they wanted to have a ‘go’ at Giulia. They saw an erroneous position being adopted and they were also concerned about the link between G and ED, the latter having demonstrated her true colours on this blog, Twitter and YouTube. You were not commenting when ED was posting here Iris and therefore you may not understand why this connection was a concern to certain readers.

      5. There has not been a deluge of people commenting on G. Indeed, thousands reads the blog and I think maybe 4 people have passed comment. Hardly “all these defensive comments at the same time”.

      6. I do not state this to detract from your own experience elsewhere.

      7. I regard your experience as distinct from that of G.

      8. G remains welcome to comment and as you noticed I invited her to re-phrase the question and I would answer it. She declined.

      1. Narc Angel says:

        Bullied my ass. If you come in charging and expecting to push to the front of the line of regular girls, first time guests, or anyone, as in life-expect to be addressed. Simple as that.

        1. K says:

          The experience you had on other blogs was unacceptable and that isn’t going to be repeated here. HG wouldn’t allow it. I lean heavily towards logic (most of the time) and there was absolutely no logic in Guilia’s accusation that HG was ignoring her and I reread her comment several times and I still can’t see the “question”. Instead of simply clarifying, she chose to make it a BIG drama. What a waste of time, not to mention, how selfish and immature it was. HG’s time is better spent answering other people’s questions instead of dealing with this utter nonsense.

      2. Narc Angel says:

        Take Guilia out of it …should have preceded that bullied my ass comment.

      3. Iris says:

        I appreciate the fact that you took the time for this long reaction to my comment very much HG and I fully understand where you are coming from, as well as where the other reactions are coming from.

        I just tried to make people see that it’s possible to feel cornered by other people, just as I have felt cornered a long time ago. I just put myself in her shoes and tried to make people see how someone could feel in her position.

        This is not about the facts, this is about a feeling: feeling outnumbered or cornered. Even when it isn’t really happening.

        I understand that maybe you don’t feel it, but it is a scary feeling, believe me.

        1. HG Tudor says:


          I operate from a thinking perspective most of the time so I wouldn’t experience the point you make about feeling, but I do understand the difference you are conveying.

          The facts may not support the feeling, but you feel that way anyway, yes?

        2. Narc Angel says:

          People will and do come forward when someone is outnumbered or cornered when the need is felt. We are empaths after all.

      4. ava101 says:

        No arguing with that. 😉

        Well thank you Iris, for ignoring supportive comments by various “regulars”.

        Yes, there has been bullying and manipulation before, but in this case I don’t see it either. But maybe HG can’t be always taken with enough stoicism when someone is feeling thin-skinned.

        Just for the record, to have something to compare to: I’ve been waiting for months for some answers to my questions, some even a year now (though that ones might have been answered by now, I don’t know anymore where I had posed them ;D).

        When HG tells me that my question doesn’t make sense to him, and I want an answer, I rephrase it. I don’t demand an answer (well, most of the time at least 😉 ). He did answer when questioned. I regarded that question that went without an answer as rhetorical, too. But things have been said on the topic – and been ignored. Instead there was some clinging to certain mind-set … And so on. …

    2. Jenna says:

      I’m just a “regular girl”☹️

      😂 Kidding, just trying to add some humour in this tense situation!

      1. Iris says:

        Don’t worry Jenna, the situation isn’t tense at all. Just a difference of opinions. Life would be dull without it ;-).

      2. ava101 says:

        You think? Then you seem to need it.

        1. Jenna says:


          I am not sure who u r addressing. If it is me, then….. thank u for ur input.

      3. Jenna says:


        In all seriousness, i can understand how u felt. It may appear the way u describe, at first glance, but i can assure you that it is not like that at all. Hg will allow everyone to voice their opinion, newer readers and longer participating readers. Even tho i wud be considered a ‘regular girl’ ie. regular reader, by you, just recently, i felt what you describe as “intimidated” and “cornered” by newer readers. So, it can go both ways. But just to let u know, giulia is not a newer reader.

        I enjoy ur presence here iris. 😊
        Looking fwd to further interaction!

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          We all have different personalities and ways of dealing with one another. We also have varying amounts of empathy and personal pain we are dealing with and this affects how we interact with others. I imagine we all encounter things about other people’s comments that hurt us or tick us off, too. I know I do, but I try not to respond to these things, particularly when they are in comments here on the blog.

          At the same time I understand that other people may consider my not responding when hurt or annoyed as wimpy and weak. We are all entitled to our opinion. My standard approach when someone hurts or annoys me is to try to put myself in their place and try to figure out the “why” behind their hurtful comment. Often this “why” has absolutely nothing to do with me and is a projection of their own pain. Then I can focus on sending them mental healing energy. They may never feel it, but it does heal me.

          1. Jenna says:


            Thank u for ur excellent advice! You are truly v wise 💗

            I hope it didn’t look like i was complaining abt being on the receiving end of feeling “intimidated”. It’s something that i have accepted over the last few wks. I realized that if i am going to participate in a public platform, i will get all kinds of comments, and i need to be strong enuf to deal with it. That’s why i’ve been training myself to do that. As u saw a few wks ago, i tried to just avoid it by leaving the blog, but i came running back. I was not ready yet. So now, i know in my mind, that leaving is not an option for me to consider. Moving fwd, i will handle myself with that in mind.

            It really made me sad that gabs and dr. Hq left (i have not seen her since since the last heated incident). I hope she returns. But knowing her, one she cuts, she cuts, blog included ☹️

            I really appreciate that u took the time to offer me some tips. The way u try to help so many pple here, it is so obvious to me that u can ‘feel’ what they feel. Ty v much windstorm. 🌹

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            No not at all. I wasn’t referring to you, just adding onto what you had said. I guess that was just me thinking thru and dealing with my own frustrations. Youre certainly welcome if you get any benefit from my ramblings! 😊

          3. K says:

            I don’t think you ramble and I look forward to all your comments.

      4. ava101 says:

        No, Jenna, I was addressing Iris.
        But I meant you amongst others, who were nice and attentive in regard to the issue with the “question”.

    3. Twilight says:

      Good Day Iris

      Understand how it feels to be bullied. I also know what it is like to have the Admins of a forum gang up on you. My ex was in every forum and/or “friends” with many of not only the admins but other commenters. I did leave them.

      HG let’s everyone have a voice here, even his own kind (which do show in time).

      You said you felt she was being cornered, and this was the image you had. Do you believe this was from your experience and it triggered your sympathy for her and this is why you saw this in your mind? Or do you believe this is how she felt?

      I am curious my question isn’t meant to make you feel uncomfortable. If I have I do apologise and understand if you do not feel like answering it.

      1. Iris says:

        I don’t mind at all.

        I believe that is how she felt. You can read it in her words: she used the word “bullied” herself, so she must have felt that way.

        It also triggered me.

        So to answer your question honestly: both.

        But shall we move on? I already did.

        This is such an interesting forum. I love it.

        1. Twilight says:


          Thank you for answering my question.

          Yes this forum holds an incredible amount of knowledge, support and wisdom.

  19. Iris says:

    About blocking their phone number and Whats App-number from your mobile phone: just do it and the cravings will stop.

    Otherwise you will still be acting like Pavlov’s dogs waiting for the bell to ring!

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. narc affair says:

      Hi iris…during my week long no contact years ago this was me. I didnt block him anywhere. I continually kept checking my email and heard nothing. At first i was panicky and sad but every so often id feel this strange sense of the burden being lifted. It came in waves each emotion. Id be doing ok for a bit then for no reason i felt like someone punched me in the gut it hit me so hard the feeling of pain and depression. As the week moved on i checked my email less and less and each time there was less disappointment….until he emailed and that emotional surge was still there. It takes months to get over that emotional part so its so very important with serious no contact to block everywhere.
      I agree if you know theyre completely blocked theres no looking and then you can just deal with withdrawals without that gnawing feeling to go check for hoovers. We do it to ourselves leaving that door open. To completely block is a committment to oneself that youll take care of yourself and protect yourself.

  20. Jenna says:

    Groceries in one hand and held using inner elbow of that arm, phone in the other (cuz i thought i only needed bread so didnt bother getting a cart).

    Of course its a complimdnt!

    1. narc affair says:

      Lol jenna! Great job multitasking👍

      1. Jenna says:


        Thx for multi-tasking compliment!!😄

  21. Iris says:

    The narcs in our lives aren’t powerful at all. They don’t make us do the things we do.

    WE make us do the things we do. Our emotional and biological addiction to our own feelings make us believe that we love them and miss them and that is why we keep reaching out to them.

    They know this (most of them unconsciously,) and just wait for it to happen.

    We do all the dirty work ourselves. We are our own flying monkeys!

    1. Narc Angel says:


      I agree and have levelled the charge many times that they are not as powerful as they believe themselves. Better duck though Iris as some take that to be victim shaming or being disrespectful of their beliefs otherwise. I dont care but you might.

      1. Iris says:

        No I don’t care about that anymore either Narc Affair. I know it’s true. We are all captains of our own ships!

        Off course they took advantage of our emphatic nature and the wrong wiring of our brains caused by our upbringing and that one is completely on them.

        The fact that you are allowed to abuse someone by that same person doesn’t give you the right to do so. That makes them the abusers, not us.

        But if we leave it at that we miss a golden opportunity to learn something about ourselves and that would be an enormous shame.

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      We do all the dirty work ourselves. We are our own flying monkeys!


    3. Jenna says:


      “WE make us do the things we do.”

      V true!!

  22. Tappan Zee says:

    This got me looking at and listening to my phone. Several voice mails were there. Old and blocked. I mean all old. But pre and post escape. I listened (again) and thought. WHAT AM I DOING. I know I know I know. I had all these FLIMSY reasons to keep. THEN, I DID IT. Bam delete. All. Felt. So. Good.

  23. Iris says:

    Looking back on yesterday’s little discussion about your remark towards Giulia’s believes I realise now which manipulation tactic you were using:

    You didn’t take responsibility for your actions at all, instead you tried to focus my attention on something I said (that the remark was funny) and went on about that instead.

    You hoped to deflect my attention and counted on the fact that I would try to defend myself, as I did. Later you said something like “OK we disagree on my remark, so we leave that one alone, but let’s continue with your remark”, expecting me to take the bait and quietly shifting the blame to me.

    In the past I would have taken the bait and before you know it, your remark would have been forgotten about and somehow we would have been discussing all my faults instead, ending with me excepting my responsibilities and even apologizing for it.

    But this time I stopped myself because I now know it is useless to keep on repeating yourself to a narc and now I know how easy it is for a narc to lead you down the rabbit hole. A clever little trick, but so effective.

    Thanks HG, I learned a lot for you and you didn’t even do it on purpose ;-).

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are wrong.

      Not only are you factually incorrect, you have failed to take into account two substantial factors
      1. The rules of this forum operate to remove any manipulation ; and
      2. In any event you are a tertiary source and therefore not worth manipulating.

      What happened to you stating your apparent truth once and moving on? You keep going.

      I have made my point. I am well aware of what you are trying to do.

      1. Iris says:

        I’m not trying to do anything HG. I learned something and I told you about it.

        It doesn’t matter whether or not you agree with me. Narcs never do anyways.

        It is about me. I saw a pattern in my behaviour and now I can hopefully avoid it IRL.

    2. K says:

      I can’t see any manipulation at all. Giulia’s comments came out of left field and were completely baseless and the Jesus remarks aren’t disrespectful at all; not only were they innocuous, they were funny.

      Christ almighty, I feel like I am being fucking gas lighted.

      1. ava101 says:

        Haha, in this case, I don’t see any manipulation either, but false premises leading to that conclusion.

  24. Narc Angel & Iris.

    Thank you both for your kind words.

    I’m going to make sure I don’t let anyone else derail my life. That’s why I need a good education.

    Finally getting here.


  25. Question…i got a new phone and just noticed that numbers that i had blocked aren’t blocked anymore. I don’t have the most recent narcs number anywhere in my phone or anywhere else easily accessible (and it wasn’t memorized). I’d have to expend energy to try to find his number somehow in order to block it again. Fine just to leave things as is?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Keep it as it is. If there is a call from a number you do not recognise, let it go to voicemail – if it is the narcissist delete message as soon as you realise and block the number.

      1. Perfect, thank you.

  26. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    I hadn’t blocked his phone numbers because I thought that was mean and unkind and I’m not that kind of person. I felt if he approached me and said I sent you a text, Id have yet more proof that’s he’s lying again. I certainly wouldn’t reply.

    We are in the same club….even though we no longer attend because of our fallout with him and we receive newsletters featuring him and his phone number, because he’s on the committee.

    I really don’t care about HIM anymore…..but what he DID, yes! We actually have a laugh because he looks ridiculous.

    I would appreciate your thoughts on this!

    Kind thanks

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not a credible reason. You know he lies and is a narcissist, what more do you need? That is just emotional thinking making you think it is a credible reason to keep that channel open. Block.

      1. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Thankyou, I have now blocked for good!

        Btw I finally received all 8 of your books today .. I was soooooo excited, jumping up and down, almost peed myself !
        You’re my Chrissie pressie …. to me !
        I’m taking you to bed with me 😂

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hg approves for several reasons.

        2. K says:

          I am so excited that you are excited. Enjoy story time with HG,
          wink, wink. Congratulations on the “blocking”!

    2. K says:

      Hang out with me for a while and I will teach you how to be mean AND feel no guilt about it. I call it survival and it is easy to learn.

      1. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Dear K,
        Awe, thank you. I was like a kid with a new toy when the package arrived. My husband snatched “sex and the narcissist” away from me to read himself … haha
        Youre terrific and exactly what I need. I felt really guilty “blocking” but it’s done and I now feel somewhat empowered !
        Where were you when I needed you years ago😂
        The thing is … he was a “friend” not a love interest ( maybe he saw it differently in his little pea brain). So, I’ve copped the love bombing, ghosting and hoovering without the “benefits” 😂
        Ive always been Miss “fix it” or “I help”, but not anymore.
        I didn’t think a narcissist “friend” would do the same as the “intimate” kind …
        I must’ve been good fuel to him!
        Perhaps Mr Tudor could enlighten me on this!
        Thank you again K for your support… I really appreciate it

        1. K says:

          You are so very welcome Bubbles,
          Your comment was the first one I read this morning and it made me smile. I hope your husband enjoys Sex and The Narcissist and I am happy that you feel empowered. Now, stay away from guilt and put yourself first. I wish I was there for you years ago; I would have taught you a thing or two. Allow me to enlighten you: you were a delicious fuel cookie and he wanted to absorb you into his fuel matrix and let’s not forget character traits and residual benefits.

  27. Iris says:

    It makes my sad reading your pain Perse and I don’t even know you. Big hug!

  28. Missy says:

    Very good article HG ! Done all the mistakes and he was always bck. I have a question tho cos my narc told me last time we spoke after I said I had enough I want normal life and we shouldn’t contact he said he understand my points and he’ll try but I have to block him to help him as he can’t stay away. I didn’t block him and he didn’t contact me again .Was he honest for once or it’s just some sort of game ?? I have to admit I do check on him looking as he chatting on line to the OTHER ONE. Stupid I know

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He was looking to create a false sense of security.

      1. Missy says:

        Thank you . False sense of security in me or himself? . It’s all so confusing

        1. HG Tudor says:

          In you.

  29. I no longer have to worry about NC with the N that brought me here in the first place.
    I read this article, The Wrong No Contact, listened to it and read it again!

    But, I did attempt NC with my N. I did not have the resources that are available here. I did have just enough information to know that at the least I was dealing with a narcissist/psychopath, but nowhere did I find what exactly that meant. i had no idea how their thoughts worked, I had no idea they are incapable of actual love; I actually felt pity for mine in that I thought he loved me way more than I loved him. I was so wrong. He just wanted his possession back.

    I was not told how exactly to do no contact from the sites that were available, but I was told in a consultation that I was in danger, and should probably file a restraining order. With what proof?

    I bought a different kind of book on the downlow, How to Disappear.
    (Great book by the way, if all you need to do is disappear.)
    I breached NC by #4 with the son, and some close friends out of sphere who I reconnected with. Not much talking about, but ANY is too much. I also put every recommended blocking and disinformation into place except one.

    He contacted me frantically, over email, with all kinds of “emergencies”. I answered back that I would only be able to check emails once a week. (I was off grid). It started with him acting like he couldn’t order medical supplies for himself. I told him I would take care of that this time, but going forward, he could do it himself, by the way, get his own credit card, cause I had cancelled mine. Every week the emergencies would become more urgent, until he finally told me he was going to have to go to the hospital for an amputation. I finally contacted son, who confirmed this , but told me in no uncertain terms DO NO RETURN. My emotional thinking kicked in, he had already accused me of not caring having never cared about him. I was there by nightfall. Wrong thing to do. My book did not cover ET, it was not the scope of the subject.

    So my other mistake was even using that email.

    Everything should have been 3rd party notification at that point. There was no minor children involved. I take that back. I should have not allowed even email contact. NO NOTIFICATION WHATSOEVER. This was the instructions I had ignored to my own detriment.

    So, why of such interest to me at this time?
    I need to look at how I MYSELF broke no contact to see weaknesses that would allow others to breach my boundaries and to make sure I actually have boundaries and put them in place where I do not have them.

    Not to lessen the importance of your other articles, but this is the most important one so far, and I sit here crying wishing your insights had been available to me years before now. I wouldn’t have wasted nearly 40 years of my life wondering how I continuously was getting it so wrong, when I supposedly was doing everything right.

    I was not, and I had no one to tell me otherwise.

    Thank you that you are here now, and that I could find this place. I seriously think I would have driven myself insane, trying to find the answers in the aftermath.

    These are not the answers I expected, but they are definitely the right answers. And I am so grateful.


    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Narc Angel says:


      You are not giving yourself enough credit. You were doing the best you could with the information you had at that time. You were taking action when you may have felt like giving up. It was not a waste. You may feel you have arrived late but all that matters is that you have and that you have the information and support to have the next 40 years be yours to live as you wish. Be proud of yourself and make them count.


    3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Wow. You have been through so much. I gain strength from the strength you have built over the years Perse.

      You bring up one of the hardest aspects… is facing that feeling that we’ve given up so much for them. My experience made me feel like I wasted a good portion of my life, so I can only imagine what nearly 40 years feels like.

      It’s so hard not to get pulled back in, especially if they are having medical issues. Even if exaggerated, it still pulls at the heart.

      And my heart goes out to you, Perse.

      Thank you for the reminder of how important it is to stay away.

  30. Iris says:

    You’re using word salad my dear HG, and you know it ;-).

    I wasn’t talking about the rest of your discussion with her because that was besides the point I was making. She said something, you disagreed using arguments, as did she. All fine by me, so not worth mentioning, as far as I’m concerned.

    Than you made fun of her believes. Not necessary and not classy as a discussion tactic. The remark itself was funny, which is possible, as you very well know.

    As for as my empathy: I was giving neither one of you my empathy. I just made an critical observation, which I’m pretty sure you can handle. See it as a balance to all the flattery you’re receiving :-).

    Shall we leave it at this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, I am not using word salad, not at all.

      You think I was disrespectful. I disagree. We are not going to shift positions on that, so that ends that point.

      What I find interesting is that you criticise my remark as being disrespectful but then label it as amusing which clearly endorses my remark, thus you are also being disrespectful to G (assuming we accept for the moment it was a disrespectful remark) or if you are not being disrespectful by laughing, my remark must not be disrespectful. You threw the metaphorical second punch by describing it as funny.

      By analogy. I trip an old lady up so she falls over. You laugh at the action but then say what I did was wrong. (I know it is a cruder action but it is the endorsement by laughter that I am pointing out).

      1. Iris says:

        I already explained my position on that one HG, so there is no point in repeating myself.

        You yourself once said: state your point ones and leave it at that. Sorry HG, but you taught us too well ;-).

        Discussing something with a narc: it’s like wading through mud, but the adrenaline rush is well worth it. God I miss it hahaha.

  31. Iris says:

    A boyfriend I used to have a long time ago keeps on hoovering me every time he sees me in the streets. I make no effort whatsoever to go no contact with him as I couldn’t care less about him.

    Will there be a point in time he’ll get the message and back off? I’m dry as toast with him, so what’s the point?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Read about the Hoover Trigger and Hoover Execution Criteria Iris and that will guide you in the right direction. If unclear, do ask.

      1. Iris says:

        I’ve already read it and I know seeing me is a hoover trigger and the bars are probably low enough for him to give it one more try.

        But I’m dull as ditchwater, so where is his fuel? Ultimately, it all boils down to getting some fuel from me, but I don’t see the fuel. Just some uncomfortable moments (mostly on his side).

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are evidently providing some even though you may not realise you are doing so. There may be the attraction of character traits and/or residual benefits also.

  32. Salome says:


    Thank you so much, HG!!!

    I see what I was doing until now it was in reality The Wrong No Contact.

    I have to start the counting from the begining.

    06.12.2017- the 1st day of NC.
    The real one.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  33. Bibi says:

    Just listened to this on YT. Great reading, HG.

    I just wanted to follow up with the importance of this advice because you might not realize how looking them up online and seeing what they post with regard to news topics, songs, films, etc. how this will impact you.

    For example, your narc might post a clip of some current pop song and speak of how he enjoys it. Then, next time you hear it, you are thinking of him, or hating the song, or resenting the singer or artist, or a film he finds hilarious now you hate anything to do with it, or place he went to, now you claim you would never be caught dead there, etc.

    All these are seeds that can be re-implanted and you find yourself resenting things that had nothing to do with your relationship, but are new associations.

    I consider myself healed, but I don’t ever, ever, EVER look him up, ever. Once, I had a friend of mine tell me he looked him up and this friend casually mentioned some things he saw on narc’s profile. By the end of our convos, I was crying.

    This was only 3 months ago. I’ve been no contact since early 2014. I told friend to never tell me if he looks him up.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Bibi.

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