Poll : Re Ensnarement – What Do You Regard The Victim of a Narcissist As Being?

POLLHG WANTSTO KNOW

This poll is all about your views about how you regard a victim of a narcissist at the point of being ensnared. It is not about the overall view of the victim, so whether you consider that person to be especially empathic, resilient, a survivor, weak, strong and so forth, the in the round view is not the purpose.

Instead, what do you think about the victim in terms of their ensnarement? Is he or she somebody who is otherwise healthy and is effectively unlucky that a narcissist targeted them? Maybe you regard the victim as somebody who is naive and ought to have picked up on the red flags which appear and heeded them and evaded the narcissist before the ensnarement was complete? Alternatively, you may feel that the victim is a damaged individual who stands out to our kind and is always going to be targeted and ensnared because of this damage (whatever the damage may be). Perhaps you consider that the victim is somebody who actually seeks out the narcissist, as opposed to the narcissist being drawn to the victim and targeting them – the victim goes looking for their fix from our kind?

You may choose upto three of the offered descriptions and as ever please do expand on your thoughts and choices in the comments section

Thank you for participating.

What do you regard the victim of a narcissist as in terms of being ensnared?

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378 thoughts on “Poll : Re Ensnarement – What Do You Regard The Victim of a Narcissist As Being?”

  1. Reading through the comments, very helpful, especially regarding female narcs. I realized there is one I’ve been instinctively recoiling from when I run into her since a decade ago and I only just realized that’s why. I think the female ones cause a bad reaction in me much faster than male, who can draw me sometimes. My close female friends tend to have few to no narc qualities. Probably something reminds me of my mother and scares me off because I know I won’t respond well to the stress of the competitive pushiness. This one I just identified why I was reacting like this yesterday when she started actively, consciously flashing status/wealth symbols at me and I couldn’t figure out why she was doing it until I connected the dots (Note to self: avoid avoid). I did right away realize…*don’t step into the trap of sharing personal commentary and information* because I had alarm bells warning me *she won’t care*. Dangerous. I suspect she is mid range elite.
    There is one type of lesser female who skates by my perception pretty easily, I don’t know how to describe them. It’s as if they are terrible at displaying normal narc traits but will eventually start jumping into competitive mindsets that they’ve completely made up (I’m not even playing along but they imagine I am) and usually start triangulating to prove their point (throwing a friend under the bus in the process). Maybe it’s a victim narcissist streak that is less obvious initially.

    I did want to also say that alcohol addiction imo can be a red flag, but I have seen empaths with addiction weaknesses, I include myself, but I’ve seen others. I have seen narcs with addiction also. I realize I have some narc traits, but I consider them to be some sort of coping mechanism to deal with actual narcissists and my upbringing? Does anyone have thoughts on this? I feel things deeply and am mostly incapable of lying, objectifying, chess maneuvers, etc… and run like the wind from those things and I’ve helped defend people who have gotten stuck in triangles. Also I’ve been told my children have good empathic traits and I know I developed that with them instinctively…how to understand the emotions of others while maintaining boundaries. That’s actually something I’m starting to face even more intensely as they get older and I’m seeing other children develop narc traits and I don’t want them to get entangled in any bad situations. I’m hoping self-esteem is enough for them to hold their ground and so far their most comfortable friends all seem to have solid empath traits. If they have good self-esteem they can walk from a situation and not fuel it and become less of a target and they have been able to do so mostly. It makes me think my past has some upside, even if it’s not for me directly.

    1. Actually this has me thinking more…. in fact someone who develops addiction coping while dealing intensely with a narcissist can then have that used by the narcissist. Considering Angelina Jolie, though I don’t know what Brad is. And I saw a narcissist in real life want to use “drugs” against two people quite nefariously and for no reason (I defended them both against the person as successfully as I could, I’ve no Madonna delusions of myself). The Law is a source for triangulation.

  2. Hi K,
    re:”Where the hell are all the empaths for christ’s sake?”
    I ask myself that same question quite often 🙂 Not IRL.

    1. E.B.
      Sometimes I wish we could all get together so we could be surrounded by kind people with REAL empathy. Most of my narcs can’t even show ersatz empathy!

      1. K
        I usually remind my narcs when a normal person would show empathy and they are not. Sometimes they get angry, but usually they get a surprised, blank look – like a deer in headlights – and I imagine them thinking, “What? Missed that one! How should I react now?”

        That’s a drawback of cognitive empathy. It requires thought as opposed to being instinctive.

        I guess I enjoy pointing this out because they so love to feel superior, but that’s one area we all know I’m better in. 😄

      2. windstorm
        Your entire first paragraph is completely accurate. I never understood that surprised blank look. It was as if something was missing and I felt like I spoke a foreign language. Ha, deer in the headlights because they have been busted!

        Many of my narcissists don’t even have cognitive empathy! Nada, Zilch, zero…

        Sometimes, when me and my MMRN would face off, I felt superior because he just didn’t get certain things. (I thought he was a few sandwiches short of a picnic)

        His response: “You don’t understand; I am just not like you.”

        Ain’t that the truth.

      3. Hi K,

        “Most of my narcs can’t even show ersatz empathy!”

        I guess most of those narcissists you know are Lessers, right?
        From my own experience, most MRN women (not Lessers) I have known are experts at making others believe they are empathetic and understanding. They will look you in the eye and nod while you are talking to them. They seem to be excellent listeners. These women will mirror you and concentrate on gathering as much information as possible which will be used as ammunition against you. Their intrusive questions are not seen as red flags since they tell you they only want to *help* and need the details, which sounds plausible.
        As for male narcissists, they are not good at showing ersatz empathy at all. They do try but I can see they are faking it. They are easy to detect.

        I find MRN women the most dangerous ones. They know how to take advantage of other women in non-intimate relationships as friendships. Many of them are social workers or something similar in that field.

      4. EB
        I agree with you about narc women. They’ve always scared me and I avoid them at all costs. I can spot them very quickly, but no one would believe me. Like you said, they’ve often worked themselves into some sort of charity or care position – usually in a position of power or authority. And they act very caring, friendly and helpful to maintain their cover.

        They are often very petty and vindictive, too. While men narcs will try to charm a woman, a woman narc will quickly target other women who don’t support her. My instinct is to drop into cover as soon as I spot a woman narc before she can get me in her sights.

      5. Hi Windstorm,

        Thank you so much for your comment. I am glad you understood and most of all that you did not invalidate my experience. People do not want to know how cruel and vindictive narcissistic women can be, especially to other women. However, they would agree if I said the same about men.

        “While men narcs will try to charm a woman, a woman narc will quickly target other women who don’t support her.”

        Exactly. These women will rather target another woman than a man. They are petty, feel easily criticized and see other women who challenge them in some way as a threat to be destroyed.
        While a MRN man will be able to control their fury to maintain his façade, MRN women will seek revenge by recruiting other female MRN, LN and Normals who lack empathy to attack the target and also to isolate her from a whole group. This is how they keep their façade. I have noticed that they behave like Greaters although they are actually MRNs.

        “My instinct is to drop into cover as soon as I spot a woman narc before she can get me in her sights. ”

        I wish I could do that too. I tend to fall under their radar very quickly. Same question I asked K, if you feel like sharing, Windstorm.
        How do you spot them or what red flags do you look for *during the first interactions* with these women?

      6. EB
        I had to think about what makes me suspect women narcs. One red flag is if they are in a position of power and women under them seem afraid to make any of their own decisions without being told. Often well meaning women will warn me when they see I’m about to misstep “you shouldn’t wash that fork unless Martha said to. Martha always tells us when we can clean up.”

        Sadly I’d say I suspect any woman in any sort of power over others when the others don’t seem happy; who may seem nervous or very quiet. Usually when I interact with these possible narcs they seem very happy when no one else is. They also may be inconsistent- do something cruel or thoughtless that hurts someone else present or even throw a small fit, then immediately be all sunny and cheery.

      7. Hello Windstorm,

        Thank you so much for your two replies. I find them very helpful 🙂
        I will make a list with your red flags and also K’s.

        “I suspect any woman in any sort of power over others when the others don’t seem happy; who may seem nervous or very quiet. ”

        This is so true. It reminds me of a dentist I used to go years ago. She was a MRN and seemed to be very nice but the whole atmosphere was tense. Her team seemed to be anxious and nervous. They were probably afraid of her. I decided to leave because she was taking advantage of me financially, among other things. When I finally found an empathetic dentist, I could not believe how friendly and relaxed his personnel were/are. They enjoy working together and the atmosphere is relaxing.

      8. EB
        You’re welcome. I always enjoy talking to you. Often as I puzzle out the answer to a question, it opens my own understanding more.

      9. EB

        Thought of another red flag. Women narcs are “steamrollers.” They get caught up in what they want and just roll over anyone in their way.

      10. E.B.
        Yes, most of them are ULNs, LMRNs and some Dirty Angels. The MMRNs/DAs are the most dangerous and difficult to identify. I am getting pretty good at ferreting them out and even some of them are terrible at “pretend listening” and ersatz empathy. I told my empath friend to keep her mouth shut and say nothing about her personal life but she keeps allowing the female narcissists to take advantage of her and then complains about it.

        On a positive note she tries to avoid my MMRN and the D.A.D. (dirty angel dad) at morning and afternoon school drop off.

      11. Hi K,

        “D.A.D. (dirty angel dad) ”

        I love this acronym 🙂

        “I am getting pretty good at ferreting them out ”

        Glad to know you can do it. I am still learning. I can identify them when it is too late. I avoid contact with women IRL as much as possible. Would you mind sharing how you do it or what red flags do you look for *during the first interactions*, if you wish?

        “I told my empath friend to keep her mouth shut and say nothing about her personal life but she keeps allowing the female narcissists to take advantage of her and then complains about it.”

        As HG said, people do not like to be told what to think or what (not) to do. We have to let them figure it out for themselves. Once she understands narcissism, she will listen to you. A reader asked how to make her best friend realize her mother is a N and the answer is on YT at 09:30:

        Ask HG Tudor Answers Part One May 2018

      12. Thank you, E.B. (D.A.D., 1st Red Flag: married, 3 kids, flirts non-stop
        with all the moms at the playground, hmmm…something isn’t right, this
        was pre-narcsite)

        Now that I am “out” of Narc World I can “see” better and I no longer ignore my instincts.

        1. Body language is a big tell for me. My newest narc-mom dry humped my empath’s fridge. (LMRNs/lessers are overtly off, pushy, no boundaries)
        2. They seem to lose interest in what you are saying within 30 seconds (eyes glaze over or dart elsewhere looking for fuel)
        3. When I ask them questions that require empathy, they all fail right away (except the DAs). They just look at me and say nothing.
        4. The longer I interact with the DAs they eventually reveal odd behavior. My DA mom drank a 6-pack of beer during a play date. Bingo! No empath/normal would do that. At the grocery store, she was short on cash and put the fruit/veggies back but kept the beer, plus she is sleeping with her sister’s boyfriend.
        5. Be cautious when you meet new people, watch & listen. Narcs give themselves away in the oddest ways, I just do NOT excuse it anymore.

        I agree, people need to figure stuff out on their own, however, I have been patient with my empath for the past year but she keeps allowing her ET to cloud her logic, working herself up into an emotional-tizzy, obsessing, feels guilt, worries about what the narcs think about her (WTF), crashes in exhaustion, whines about it then does it all over again.

        I am less patient, as of late.

        I listened to Ask HG Tudor Answers Part One May 2018 yesterday; it was great. It is interesting to hear all the different places where the questioners live.

      13. K
        Your points on how to recognize women narcs were very good. If they’re midrange or lessers they can’t keep their eyes from glazing over when you talk about yourself. They will quickly change the conversation. They are constantly shifting the focus onto themselves and what they want.

        Sometimes midrangers will feign empathy, but it has a false, almost gushy ring to it. I can often sense a feeling of superiority and disdain where they are really looking down on the person who needs empathy as if they feel this makes the person weak or beneath them.

      14. WS
        They really do love to steamroll. And their eyes glaze over so fast and they turn the conversation right back to themselves or walk away. Gushy & saccharine sweet “concern” are big red flags and my narcs view sickness, weakness or tears with contempt. Also it is counter productive for people, in any environment, to be afraid to make decisions or speak up. Narcs blow hot and cold and love to create tense situations. Fuel and control. I would rather work in a morgue than with a narcissist, everybody is dead and you don’t have to deal with the bullshit.

      15. Hi K,

        Thank you so much for reading and for taking the time to write about red flags. I really appreciate it.

        I know men like D.A.D. Many women seem to like these men, though. However, when they are in a relationship, they will complain that their partners are unfaithful.

        I have seen number 2 and 3 too and the MRNs I know behave exactly like that but unfortunately not during the first interactions at the very beginning. It seems that they know what to say and how to show fake empathy to make me believe they are a decent person.

        Addictive behaviour is definitely a red flag, IMO. They will keep buying cigarettes, overspending or buying things they do not need and they will tell you they do not have enough money for food or for their children. They will expect you to feel pity and offer them some money without asking for it directly. But again, most MRNs will how to hide it during the first interactions.
        I felt disappointed when an acquaintance of mine who seemed to be an empath told me what she did when she went to the supermarket. She will buy all she wants and if she cannot afford it, there is usually another customer, usually men, who will feel pity for her and pay for the difference. She told me this has happened to her at least four or five times (in a year) but actually, she knows how to behave when people are watching while waiting in line to check out. Until then, I thought she was a decent person.

        No. 5- I will pay more attention to what they say and do. I tend to make too many excuses. As for number one, I had to look it up. It is crazy what she did. I did not know some people do those things.

        I have become less tolerant with people who do not want to know. I cannot change them so I decided not to waste my energy on making them to see the truth if they do not want to.

        Thank you once again, K. It was very kind of you to let me know all about it.

      16. My pleasure, E.B.
        The D.A.D. is usually surrounded by 4 moms at all times.
        LMRN’s & lessers are easier to spot, hence the dry-humping, but MMRNs/DAs are difficult because they are able to maintain a better facade so they appear decent.

        6. WS is right, females love to steamroll/takeover.
        7. Over spending & addictive behavior are big red flags.
        8. Pity plays (your super market friend) and monologues.
        9. Some females will brag about their promiscuity.

        My friend attracts narcs like a magnet and I just take mental notes, but it does get frustrating.

        Don’t excuse behavior away, it takes time and patience but you will get good at it.

      17. Hi K, Windstorm and NarcAffair,

        Thank you so much for taking the time to write. I apologize for the delay in replying to your posts. Whenever I had the time, I lacked the energy. I appreciate all your contributions a lot. They were extremely helpful.

        “I would rather work in a morgue than with a narcissist, everybody is dead and you don’t have to deal with the bullshit. ”
        Ha ha – You made me laugh, K.

        Hope all of you had a nice Mother’s Day yesterday.

      18. My pleasure, E.B.!

        No worries and you don’t have to apologize to me. This is a low stress blog and we share that unspoken empath language even through the internet. There are days when I have low energy, too, and need a break.

        Ha ha ha…another great place would be a cemetery, not a lot of fuel there, either.

      19. SX
        Ha ha ha…no kidding! And empath ghosts would probably attract narc ghosts and with my luck a poltergeist. Then I could kiss that job goodbye…back to being a hermit in a yurt.

      20. K!
        It feels good to joke in between deep philosophical research and thoughts…
        It gives a spicy and more relaxed touch to the blog….waiting for the next one !

      21. WS
        My RSVP to your comment is stuck in moderation. Hopefully it will post soon.

      22. K
        Okay. I don’t see how he can keep up with all these comments! Does he still try to read them all himself or does he have someone else helping now?

        Whenever I don’t see something I would have expected I always think it’s probably lost in the spam dungeon! 😝

      23. I knew you always used to, HG. Thought it might have become too much over time.. I know you are a busy man.

      24. WS
        He is still a one-man show and he posted Answers Part One May 2018 today on YouTube so he is quite busy. I have no idea how he does it either. If the spam dungeons got it, I can copy, paste and repost it.

      25. Thank you for checking, HG. I can see it “awaiting moderation” so should I just wait like the last time? There are 2 waiting for Bubbles and Lori on narc icicles no-10, as well.

      26. Hi k…oh wow i didnt realise HG’s answers were out on yt ill have to listen when im home.
        Those are definite red flags for women that are narcs. I hope you dont mind if i add a few to the list ive come across…

        They try hard to kiss up to other narcs or highly narc people.

        After learning as much as they can about you they use what youve told them to hurt you over again.

        They snub you if someone more “important or popular” pops up. Ive had this happens with other mums. One in particular wed be talking then a hockey dad shows up to pick his child up and she dropped our conversation like a hot potato….guess whose newly divorced? She is. I cant say im surprised.

        Overly gossipy and enjoys others misfortunes. Loves scandal and spreading rumors.

        Smears to others.

        Triangulates among others to keep themselves out of the limelight and puppeteer others. Throws others under the bus and scapegoats.

        Brags.

        These are a few ive come across with narc mums and women narcs in general.
        I find in the dance business there are many narc or highly narc trait mums. Highly competitive and shallow.
        Ive loved dance from an early age and have had my daughter in it 10 years and have never been a narc dance mum. I let her just enjoy it.

      27. narc affair
        Join in anytime, the more the merrier. Yeah, I noticed that narcs like to ass-kiss other narcs and they stick together and gang up on you. And as soon as someone better comes along, off they go. Gossip, schadenfreude, rumor mongering, smearing, bragging, scapegoating and one-upmanship ad nauseam. The Narc Tango.
        My MMRNs narc sister put her daughter in beauty pageants and travelled the country for the contests. His sister was ridiculous. My daughter does what she wants to do and only for fun and I avoid all shallow and competitive people like the pox.

      28. Hello NarcAffair,

        Great contribution! Your comments made me think of different women I know and it helped me solve some puzzles. I was not sure if they were narcissists or not until I read your posts. It opened up my eyes. Thank you so much.

        “They will use that person as an example by openly humiliating of devaluing them to put fear into others so they kiss butt or go along quietly with what they want… ”

        Exactly. They do it openly and humiliate me in front of others. I did not know that it was to put fear into others. Thank you for letting me know about it.

        “She would devalue to put you in your place from time to time particularly if you got too comfortable with your job or confidant. Also if you started doing extras or recieved praise out came the devalue club… ”

        Now I know why I was targeted by this particular woman I had not even met. I was receiving praise from other people for something I had done in the past and it was not a big deal but some people kept spreading the news. This narc woman came out of the blue and targeted me. She did not do it herself, though. She sent her female Lieutenant who was also a narcissist to humiliate me and put me down in front of others. I did not even know of her existence before. I could not fight or flight. It was surreal.

        “Do your job mediocre and fly under the radar. ”

        Now it is clear that all I did was wrong. Since I was criticized, I tried to do my best and it got worse. It was a women’s group. No men. I am not used to working with women. They are a big trigger and make me anxious since I do not know what they are going to do to me next. I have always worked with men only and there was no drama, no anxiety.

        I agree with what you said about the dance business. I have heard a lot about the notorious ‘dance mom’ taking control of a peer group.

      29. Hi EB…so true what you said about women narcs. Many do triangulate and use flying monkeys to smear and bully other women who dont go with their program. They will use that person as an example by openly humiliating of devaluing them to put fear into others so they kiss butt or go along quietly with what they want.
        I worked in a seniors lodge years ago in my 20s part time and our head cook was the next in line manager after the lodge manager. My friend/coworker and i called her the mafia momma bc she put such fear in everyone and had such a far reach. Imo she was a greater mrn. She even admitted to some of her manipulations. She was the expert at manipulating all the employees.
        She would devalue to put you in your place from time to time particularly if you got too comfortable with your job or confidant. Also if you started doing extras or recieved praise out came the devalue club. Youd be devalued in the communication book for all to see. She would also set you up as having made mistakes when you hadnt.
        Over time i learned how to survive around her i was quite young and naive. I couldve used this info back then. I see how i made many no no’s when it came to working around her. Do your job mediocre and fly under the radar. Never engage in gossip. Anything more or less would get you in hot water.
        I used to be terrified of her.

  3. Hello Windstorm

    Ha ha I am not so sure “fresh” is what I would call some fish here…..even when you catch it right out of the ocean.

  4. Narc affair

    Re: Jack Nicholson

    “You never know how he would react and hed keep you off balance.”

    Yes, he’s mastered that art of the subtle insult where the recipient is left wondering if they were even insulted…I think the initimidating part is that he comes by it so naturally.

    1. Hi whocares….yes id say if jack were a narcissist hed be a greater.
      Hes very quick on the mark and itd be hard to know if he were joking or serious. Hes very talented as an actor!

  5. Reading the dialogue as it has progressed on the this post I might be in trouble. I genuinely really quite like James cordon, I think he is funny and seems to be a genuine person. The 80’s is not my favourite decade for music but then i was Under 10 years old in this decade so not likely to have an affinity with the music… not really bothered about depeche mode. I like Christian Bale, but wouldn’t rate him in my top 10 favourite actors.
    Does this make me a non conformist 🙀
    Well shit the bed I better get my ass off the blog …… 😹

    1. No issue with your view re DM and CB, but Corden is an utter twat. He is not funny, he is not genuine, he is a weapons grade helmet of the highest order. Played himself in Gavin and Stacey (Ruth Jones was the true writing talent), embarrassed himself with the England football team appearance, false laugh, always ‘look at me, look at me’, hugely hated by a lot of people and I know this through people who know him. Must have a bloody good agent though.

      1. Noted! No more reference to cordon on the blog …. If my like for him persists I will seek further psychiatric attention, as clearly this could be a diagnostic criterion.

  6. Triple yes read almost every book on her I’m in tons of Lizzie groups on Facebook she’s one of my obsessions lol I agree with everything u said although I think her relationship with the actress Nance was platonic but everything else was spot on my maternal grandparents moved to fall river in 1916 as teenagers from the Azores when Lizzie was still alive but old by then I’m.planning a trip someday to stay at the original house and later maplecroft when it opens I believe she was guilty but I know .many people swear by her innocence and blame it on the visiting g uncle

  7. I met him I was so lucky when he was in my town filming the fighter hrs a doll great actor but jack nicholson comes first

    1. Jack nicholson plays the perfect psycho. I loved him in the shining lol He can do evil perfectly.

      1. “He can do evil perfectly.”

        Narc affair,

        Re: Jack Nicholson. Agreed. He’s proven it again and again, plus he often walks the fine line of making you want to like him and hate him all at once.

      2. “Wendy? Darling? Light, of my life. I’m not gonna hurt ya. I’m just going to bash your brains in.”

        😁😂 only nicholson could deliver that line so perfectly! He plays a good grumpypants.

      3. Yes one of my all time favorite psychos Also love Patrick Bateman in american psycho and of course I adore the original psycho Norman bates jack.is also spectacular in one flew over the cuckoos nest and five easy pieces but having ocd I love him playing an ocd patient in the movie with Helen hunt he can do it all

      4. Ugotit

        Yes, Jack is as good as it gets in As Good As It Gets.

      5. Hi who cares…going by his personality i think jack nicholson would intimidate me. You never know how he would react and hed keep you off balance.
        I do love him as an actor. Hes a keeper!

  8. Haha. Sorry. I’m just not. Michael Keaton made a better Batman, in my opinion.

    1. Well, it is of course a matter of opinion and whilst Keaton is a good actor, Bale is better and was a superior Batman too.

      1. Opinion, well yes. Keaton is a little more rough around the edges; for me that makes him a bit more endearing…more human? Or maybe I’m just nostalgic for the 80’s.

        Bale makes a much better Bruce Wayne for sure.

        When it comes to Batman though…

        Keaton:
        Eyes – check.
        Jawline – good enough
        Voice – check

        Bale:
        Eyes – check ( but a bit vacant for me)
        Jawline – check
        Voice – nope (his gravelly voice is too forced)

        Sometimes it IS all about the voice.

      2. HG Tudor for Batman it is then! Actually I see a few of the other characters here on the blog lol. Maybe that could be another Nighty night Narctale.

      3. Hi HG…something just dawned on me youre praising someone else namely christian bale. I guess its ok if the narcissist chooses to praise another but i do wonder if your primary would go on about christian bale if that would taint your admiration of this actor? Would that set christian up as black along with your primary? Im sure if you were an actor as well (which narcs are) youd maybe not be able to admire another actor.

      4. It would depend on whether the IPPS was viewed as white or black. If white, her praise of him would allow me to confirm my admiration also, thus according a mutuality of interest. If black, I might discredit her praise by slating Bale or more likely, outgun her appraisal by demonstrating my knowledge of his career and ability is far greater and therefore she knows nothing, thus devaluing her whilst not impeding on my own approval of CB. It depends on what I gauge as the more effective at the time. One can admire another if it suits my interests to do so – facade management, other people agreeing (thus providing me with fuel).

      5. Ty for your insight on that HG. It makes sense and ive seen this done before in the workplace with people being devalued. Quite often it was someone trying to please a narc by agreeing with their praise of something and the natc would twist it and make them look like they knew nothing about the subject or had something wrong. It didnt matter that they too praised the same person or place etc.
        Its always about superiority.
        That being said i am curious how the result would be to triangulate a narcisisst with someone they admire.
        For instance if your primary started going on about christian bale and how fit he is and physical aspects she found attractive. Im sure that would trigger fury and she would be painted jet black but i am curious if itd possibly blacken and ruin that admiration of that celeb. Itd be a reminder of that comparison and criticism which wouldnt sit well with a narcissist. Maybe it woukd only blacken the source but there is insecurity there and i suspect that would trigger a reminder of that triangulation in the future whenever christian bale would come up via movies, magazines etc

      6. The reason i ask is bc im reminded of your article where youd mentioned even praising someone on tv as you watch or laughing would trigger fury over the shift from attention from the narc.
        Even if the primary source was white at the time i cant imagine a narc being ok with them going on about someone the narc admires especially if it diminishes the narc in some way.

      7. In generic terms, NA, that is correct, but I was speaking from my specific POV so it would be different.

      8. Thats a good thing to remember every narcissist differs. Also according to school of narc. Ty for your pov HG 🙂

  9. Insatiable Learner

    Re: cognitive dissonance.Your comment made a lot of sense to me.

    “You act upon awareness and then thinking will catch up and align.”

    Yep.

  10. Thank-you Windstorm. I enjoy that saying very much as well. Agreed; having ‘rows’ never saved me. Attempting to put things in ‘rows’ only put me in deeper. Instinct got me out.

    K – thanks for sharing what movie HG referred to. I haven’t seen it. I’m not fond of Christian Bale as an actor. Agreed about Narcsite.

      1. I will see any film with Christian Bale in it. Same with Emily Blunt. I’m American but lived in London for a bit. I’m also a fan of Cilla Black, the Corrs, Take That, Spice Girls, Ant and Dec, Travis, Keane, British vs. American chocolate, Spandau Ballet, Paul Weller/Style Council/The Jam and James Corden. Just sharing for all of you on the other side of the pond.

      2. DUTG

        ** collective gasp followed by everyone holding their breath **

        The words that can ignite the fury in HG Tudor like no other:

        JAMES CORDEN

      3. I saw that coming too, NA…but no way in hell was *I * going to be the one to point it out…

      4. You succeeded. A small child had his balloon popped today near Blackfriars Bridge as a consequence of your poking.

      5. HG, is it personal between you and James? Why does he get under your skin? Maybe I’ve missed what your issue is with him somewhere. I won’t poke you with the James stick again if it results in harm to innocent balloons and children, but do tell please.

      6. I’m not familiar with Corden, but judging from pictures of him I’d peg him as a pompous person with a nasty streak who is just waiting to work out his frustrations on someone ‘weaker’ (which is a projection – he actually thinks he ). The way he stuffs his hand in his pocket shows insecurity/hiding, and from his body language and the amount of pictures of him kissing other guys, not to mention the way he’s offering himself in the photo from rollingstone.com on the bed ith the monkey and childlike expression, I’d say he’s a bi- or closet homosexual. Probably hates himself and feels trapped.

        As for Christian Bale, I think he’s a brilliant actor and love watching him on film, but I somehow don’t find him attractive and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near him in person. He appears cold and potentially dangerous… I see calculation and entitlement in his facial expressions.

        Of course I may be wrong on both accounts, but such are my perceptions.

      7. missing text: (which is a projection – he actually thinks he is worth punishing).

      8. Thank you HG.

        I must have forgotten to set my original username and posted under the name of my intended blog – which I didn’t think woud link here when I made it. Oh well.

    1. My pleasure, WhoCares
      ha ha ha….not fond of Christian Bale…ha ha ha…

      Now is a good time to deploy the Narc’s twin lines of defence. You can’t deny what you wrote, so go straight to the second line: Distraction and Deflection

      Let’s use the False Mea Culpa with a hint of blame-shifting: I was drinking some red wine when I wrote that comment and it came out all wrong, don’t be so silly HG, you read too much into things.

      Good luck and hopefully you won’t be burned at the stake for your heresy.

      1. K – Haha!

        Okay, okay…apparently I stepped wrong, lol
        (Again.)

        Perhaps I’ll have to reserve judgment until I see American Psycho.

        But until then: Keaton.
        Seriously…if the you can’t get the voice right…the rest is just…*costume.*

      2. K

        P.S. I wish I *had* been drinking some red wine when I said that.

        (Perhaps American Psycho and a glass of red might prove an effective future plan to distract myself from my own narc.)

  11. That is why behavioural therapy is the one that is prone – changing behaviors is the way to help get traction with changing Narc or other disorders behaviours.

    Neuro linguistic programming works very well on many people not sure though for heavy disorders

    I have done it with another therapy a combination to deal with fear of abandonment and it worked too well. Now I feel strange to even the word abandonment .

  12. Hg this is off topic but last year you wrote a few posts about narcissists who were in the news sorry I don’t remember their names, I’ve been meaning to ask you if you would consider starting this up again but referencing people from the past I would especially love to hear your opinion on Lizzie Borden , Scott Peterson , and Casey anthony

    1. Lizzie borden ive researched quite a bit on. I find the story fascinating. There are two homes in fall river where she had lived. Both are bed and breakfasts. Maplecroft home she bought and lived in after she was found innocent of the murders. The owner is going to be opening it to the public. Its a beautiful victorian. The clawfoot tub is the original one lizzie bathed in eekkk!! The very room where her stepmother was found you can stay in lol ill pass! That was in the other home she lived jn with her father.

      Re lizzie….i think she definitely was a narcissist. Back in the late 1800s women who didnt marry lived with their parents/family or did church and charity work. From what ive come across she was either bisexual or gay and its speculated killed her father and stepmother to escape having to live the life of a spinster. She felt trapped. She had also tried to poison them. It is documented she tried to purchase it from a store. She was very much part of the entertainment industry and was in a relationship with an actress which caused her estrangement from her sister.
      The bordens were a very affluent family yet the father made them live well below their means. Lizzie wanted a piece of the good life and after a trip to europe with her wealthy cousins she found it hard to go back to living life with less money.
      There are still Bordens who live in fall river today in the prominent area.
      Much of what ive read about Lizzie shows her to be a narcissist. I dont think she was a psychopath but she possibly was.

      Im interested to see HG’s take on Lizzie along with other well known people.

      1. Narc Affair

        I say she was just sexually frustrated and living with her parents. That would do anyone in. Imagine back in 1892: no internet, so youre a gay woman going about your business at the butcher-shop when you get a glimpse of the luscious ankle on another female customer that gets you all hot and bothered. Theres no My Sisters Room lesbian hangout in town, so you return home only to be triangulated with the mutton you purchased for dinner, before receiving a present and prolonged silent treatment from your parents and subsequently ordered to go out and garden while Ma and Pa get their groove on (you know because you can hear your mother yelling a lot of ‘oh my word Andrew!’ and your father shouting ‘stay still for Christ’s sake Sarah-you moved and it scared the shit out of me!). You return to the house to find them sated from sex and asleep, and you think: why should I be denied the love I deserve because its 1892 and there are no vibrators? Fuck this shit-off with their heads!
        So Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 whacks and when she saw what she had done-the same for Papa just for fun. Or…you know-something like that. I havent given it much thought.

        P.S HG should sign you up as the official Tour guide for Tudor Travel lol. I felt like I was there!

      2. This was hilarious I almost peed myself if you made this comment on my Lizzie group they’d die but just for the record Sarah died when Lizzie was young Abby was her stepmother

      3. Oh come on Ugotit!!

        Youve never yelled out the wrong name accidentally on purpose?!!
        Anybody???
        No?…
        Really???

        ** side eyes **

        Just me?……

        Haha. Ok.

      1. I was thinking about Narc Angel’s All Narc Network (ANN) and the’Name That (Famous) Narc’ game show….

        Riddle me this: “This possible narc (1) targeted a married woman; (2) impregnated her with 3 children; (3) discarded her with her resuming previous self-destructive behaviors; and (4) later cheated with the nanny. Maybe I’m just uber protective of my famous 80’s band songwriter/bereaved spouse who, after reading both his and her autobiography, may have been a controlling Narc himself.

        HG, I know you know I’m talking about Jude Law/Sadie Frost/Gary Kemp. What are your thoughts on them? Any opinions on Liam Gallagher/Patsy Kensit/Jim Kerr/Nicole Appleton?

  13. Hi Twilight. I wanted to chime in on your comment to Lori about the role of cognitive dissonance. You are right: holding on to two opposite views about the narc is very much central to the struggle of letting go and not taking the narc’s behavior personally. I read an article the other day that really resonated with me. It talked about how you cannot think your way out of cognitive dissonance that awareness was only the beginning but will not resolve it. Awareness must give an impetus to action and it is the action, namely, doing something different from and opposite to what you did before awareness is what will resolve cognitive dissonance. In other words, as you take different actions based on awareness, thinking will follow the action as action will start creating new neuropathways in the brain and thinking will change. I have always done this backwards. I tried to learn and gain awareness waiting to think my way out of cognitive dissonance and then act upon it. Turns out it is the other way around. You do not wait for thinking to change. You act upon awareness and then thinking will catch up and align. Anyway, I found this very helpful and empowering. This is also consistent with HG’s teachings that once you know (awareness), you go (action). Has nothing to do with how you think or feel.

    1. Ding ding we have a winner. You are correct awareness is nothing without action. Change comes from action not awareness. Change comes from a place of discomfort

      1. CBT can be quite effective but only to the extent you practice it which is where I always fail Again it all goes back to action,

      2. Awareness and action are useless with out knowledge.

        One can have both an awareness of things, yet the action can be like a merry go round with out accurate knowledge to form a plan for not only escaping yet of staying free. Why so many end up repeating the “dance” with another, inaccurate information. Which brings me back to why this site and the knowledge HG provides is unattainable anywhere else.

    2. Hello Insatiable Learner

      I believe accurate knowledge is needed to.

      Our thoughts become action, it is being able to discern truth of what is and what is emotional thought. If one doesn’t have accurate information and a go to place with accurate support, one will fall back into the “group” mindset. Emotional contingency at its finest….

    3. Lol I’m gonnna use that word and wait for it… “perspective” lol. The therapists at least good ones have all the knowledge. What they don’t have is the perspective. They tend to explain it in very technical terms not so much in practicality. HG doesn’t really get into all the mental health details. He puts it in practical laymans terms about what he does and why and how it will all play out

      In any case, there comes a point in therapy at least for me and a couple others I know that they stop you from focusing on them and their illness and bring it back to you and why this may have happened to you.

      The way it was explained to me is that if you focus on them too much it’s a way of staying connected and I do think that’s true to a certain extent along the lines of HG s ever prescience

      1. Indeed I do as I am an excellent communicator. People want to understand so they can find a way forward, they do not need detailed scientific explanations.

      2. Lori

        Your comment made me think of when I worked for a doctor he told me to explain things in dental terminology to make me look more important. My question to him was why to confusion the hell out of them and so you can then con them into spending more money then needed.

        Hmmm guess you can see why I didn’t work for him long.

      3. I love detailed scientific explanations! I also enjoy Keanu Reeves and follow the path of higher Keanuism.

      4. HG

        I think you are quite effective at it. You say what therapists say just from a different perspective. One which easier for the common person to understand. It’s not wildly different from what a therapist would say it’s just being said in a different way

        A therapist sees it thru a medical/scientific cause perspective, HG sees it they an everyday living with it perspective

      5. Thank you, although I do more than a therapist because I understand the way my kind and me operate, more than a therapist does.

      6. I went into therapy for me and don’t even mention the narc much. His pathology is his problem and for him to deal with. My focus is my own pathology – or rather, learning how to think and act in a healthier, more constructive way.

        That is also why in time I will start disappearing from this site for longer and longer periods of time until one day, having successfully moved on with my life, I may simply stop coming back. Therefore I want to wish everyone the very best and thank you all from the bottom of my heart for sharing your stories and thoughts – most of all you, HG, whom I will never forget.

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