Poll : Re Ensnarement – What Do You Regard The Victim of a Narcissist As Being?
This poll is all about your views about how you regard a victim of a narcissist at the point of being ensnared. It is not about the overall view of the victim, so whether you consider that person to be especially empathic, resilient, a survivor, weak, strong and so forth, the in the round view is not the purpose.
Instead, what do you think about the victim in terms of their ensnarement? Is he or she somebody who is otherwise healthy and is effectively unlucky that a narcissist targeted them? Maybe you regard the victim as somebody who is naive and ought to have picked up on the red flags which appear and heeded them and evaded the narcissist before the ensnarement was complete? Alternatively, you may feel that the victim is a damaged individual who stands out to our kind and is always going to be targeted and ensnared because of this damage (whatever the damage may be). Perhaps you consider that the victim is somebody who actually seeks out the narcissist, as opposed to the narcissist being drawn to the victim and targeting them – the victim goes looking for their fix from our kind?
You may choose upto three of the offered descriptions and as ever please do expand on your thoughts and choices in the comments section
Thank you for participating.
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American psycho is a classic ….
https://youtu.be/r8coOHhotXY
That’s the one.
This is dedicated to all the victims of narcissism. I heard it this morning and havent for years but thought it very motivating to not only escape the narc but to take the experience and become an even better version of themselves. I see so many of those victims here….
https://youtu.be/RBOJpIwF47Y
Thanks Narc Affair,
Great song! 👍🏻
I checked off the 3 that applied to me. But I think that all of the options are true for different people.
I will catch crap for this and thats fine, but I don’t how anyone could consider themselves completely ” healthy” if they are being re ensnared by this narc or another narc. It’s my personal opinion and, im not a shrink, that you have codependency issues. Healthy people don’t allow repeated abuse. They don’t. What I do find is that people are in different stages of recovery that bring new stages of awareness of what happened and how it happened
People newer in recovery rarely see their own issues in this and even bringing that up to them will ignite anger because the trauma is still fresh and that’s a defense mechanism. As you get further out and begin to examine why this happened to you, you become more open as to investigating what in you allowed yourself to accept abuse you would never normally accept from anyone else
Hi lori…i totally agree!
Hi Narc Affair,
Hope you are well. I feel shitty today but there is no point talking to him. He is a narc period ugh
Lori you would probably feel even shittier after 🙂
You know Narc Affair even knowing all I know and I’m well read on the subject, therapy etc… but I still have days where I really struggle the same way someone is finding out about Narcissism for the first time
I cognitively know all of this stuff but struggle to accept it emotional
I cant fix or our manipulate him. I have to accept that. Life as a Codependent. Sigh
Hey (((lori)))…im sorry youre feeling that way. Remember time never stands still and changes so youll feel better soon! I try to distract myself when i feel in a rut over the narc or somethings got me down. Hope your day improves 🤗
It’s odd to me how you are hell bent and determined to have everyone on this blog admit to being codependent . I don’t think there’s a person here who clai.s to be completely healthy because nobody is . and I don’t think anyone I’ve ever see. Commenting here appeared to be oblivious to their own issues and problems. I think this is a group of woman who appear to be very much aware of their roles in their entanglement with a narc.I’ve never seen anyone here say I’m just a poor helpless victim who had no responsibity ever.but since we are playing shrink here I think your issues are much stronger than codependency as your guilty of black and white thinking ie everyone who’s been with a narc must be codependent projection I tur ed out to be a codependent so everyone else must also be a codependents but lacks the insight I have to see it in themselves lime I do. I wonder if your actually borderline or a narcissist yourself
Like I do not lime I do
Well put, Lori.
Lori,
The bloggers here are expressing their points of view ( as you are), have the right to express their points of view( as you do) and want to willingly share their experiences with other bloggers( as you do). The majority of them do it with respect ( no “ crap” to others involved) without trying to impose their point of view to others and with the aim of MOVING ON( well, at least for many). And their points of view are as valid as yours.
You see “boxes”,labels, tags : healthy, unhealthy, codependent, normal, abnormal etc.
You see opposites: right-wrong,good-bad,better-worse,black-white etc
I see:
-different character traits( genetic)
– different patterns of behaviours( learned from childhood and through life)
-different coping mechanisms( differing depending on childhood ,culture,values)
– different life (actual-past) circumstances(within family, professional , social etc.)
The combination of these factors makes the dynamics of an abusive relationship different from one another.
For example: high-functioning,high-effective narcissists with high degree of awareness,calculation and refined subtle ways of manipulation have a different method of seduction . Sometimes it is just the challenge and power they feel of bringing down persons with strong personal boundaries what drives them to seduce and ensnare them.
Their method of seduction is different from other schools : they do not manifest their abusive behaviour (controlling it as long as they need ) until they are sure that that person is emotionally invested or hooked first. It may take one, two years ( perhaps more) before they start the intermittent ( very subtle) abusive behaviour.So the abuse it is not easily recognised. It is like very ,very small drops of poison given now and then.
The high echelons are not stupid and know exactly who they are dealing with.
On the other hand, as I have learned here, the abuse manifests differently in lower schools(i.ex.lessers) where it is more evident, rawer. “Easily” detected.
These low schools would probably not seek ( unconsciously) for people with strong personal boundaries because they sense that these persons will not accept a rawer ,more brutal evident kind of abuse. They look perhaps for people that have been abused this way when they were children recognising and accepting that kind of abuse as “part “of a relationship.
When reading some of your comments ,it feels like by calling yourself a
codependent you are “dooming “ yourself to stay there, almost accepting that is the way it always has to be. It does not have be that way.
It is impossible to put a person in a box. It is not about putting yourself in a box either ( an certainly not others)or giving yourself a tag .
It is about identifying ,recognising and addressing your OWN patterns of behaviour ,character traits who drag you into an abusive relationship AND DOING something about it to MOVE ON. Independently of what name you want to give to these patterns of behaviour.
The degree of “healthiness “in a abusive relationship is not determined by the “box “you are placed in.
It is determined by the ability of recognising the abusive behaviour, recognising your patterns of behaviour that made you be there ,re-defining or defining your personal boundaries AND most of all doing something about it in order to MOVE ON.
I really hope you find the points of view of others helpful in you own recovery process so you can be able to finally move on and not being ensnared again.
Super xena if there was the capacity to like a post multiple times I would.
You are awesome! I very much like what you have to say, and the the way in which you breakdown and articulate your perspective. Dam your good x
Ha,ha Quasi! Thank you …you made me laugh and I have to admit that you made me blush…just a little bit…
SuperXena – you describe the complexities of the issues at hand super effectively. It was great to read that; so glad you took the time to spell it out.
I just wanted to add, on the subject of labels – that it is always important to remember that labels can be arbitrary at times or all the time…and it’s funny that we (some of us) like labels and it helps with understanding ourselves and others but as soon as those labels outgrow their usefulness or limit us, we’re not so fond of them anymore (thinking of different personality theories etc, over the years).
They really are just a way of having a common way of relating (especially here) ; a common language to address the bigger picture. They aren’t written in stone and don’t have to define anyone indefinitely – buy damn, they’re handy….
Hello Who Cares,
Thank you and thank you for expanding.
I understand what you mean but sometimes we forget that is not the label that makes the person but the traits, personality of a person that places him/her into different “ predetermined” labels or groups.
But yes, I understand and agree completely that a classification is useful in terms of getting a “broader” picture of an issue but that broad picture does not necessarily match the individual (particular) issue of a person : it just gives (a good)frame of reference ,a starting point.
*but damn
Super Xena
I would argue that the more it’s “different” the more it’s the same
I find people in abusive situations analyze every thing to the n th degree as it helps then to cope. Some look for nuances and details that day see my situation is different others look for confirmation that it’s the same.
Narcissism. = emotional abuse sometimes physical but abuse in general and a lack of empathy always and everytime. Length of abuse type and things of that nature often factor into individual specifics but the overall scheme is the same
i remember asking the shrink how many narcs do you have as patients answer “right now few ” I don’t get them that often. They don’t come here unless it’s court ordered or they are about to lose something real important to them. I treat their victims ” how many of those ? Over my time practicing ? Many. There have been many just like you Lori. You can analyze him to death Lori but it won’t fix any of this. Only you can fix yourself. My eventually got to where they no longer wanted to discuss him we know what he is let’s talk about going forward.
This is off-topic. Does anyone know what happened to Dr. Q and to Windstorm? I have not seen them since December.
Both are alive and well.
Thank you, HG.
Re: Doc HQ and Windstorm
Glad to hear they are well. If they are reading – thank you for sharing yourselves with us. You both made an impression and I will not soon forget you.
Agreed NA! Great to hear an update about WS2 and Dr. Q. I hope both will drop a line in the future to check in. They gave invaluable insight.
Im so glad to hear Dr. Q and Windstorm are well. Ive had both on my mind. I know ppl take breaks but i hope to see them post again in the future 🤗
Thanks for asking E.B., and I am happy to know that they are both alive and well.
Hi K,
It is always nice to hear from you 🙂 I hope you are doing well.
Dr. Q helped me with something I was struggling with last year. Since then all symptoms are completely gone. I did not have the chance to let her know about it and thank her because she left but I always remember her and also Windstorm.
Even though i came in after she left – I enjoy reading her replies on old post.
Too bad she is not around … 🙁
Hello E.B.
I am tickety boo. Dr. Q and WS2 were very kind, funny and had excellent advice; I miss them both. I am happy to read that all your symptoms are gone and that you are feeling better. Maybe Dr. Q might return someday and you can thank her then. But, like most empaths, she knows you are grateful without you ever having to say the words, and that is why being an empath is pretty cool. We share an unspoken language.
Thank you for your kind words, K.
You are welcome E.B.!
K,
I want to thank you for all the kindness you have extended to myself and everyone else here. I remember you were the first to reach out and hold my hand in the haunted carnival experience and I’ve never forgotten that. There is a warmth, positivism and humour to you that gives me such hope and joy. Thank you for reminding us that we do share an unspoken language (even if we sometimes get the words wrong). I am so glad you are here
You are welcome, Merripen!
And thank you for your kind words! I felt all warm and fuzzy (love) inside when I read them and I smiled. Yes, I do remember the Dark Carnaval very well and we have come a long way since then. Empaths really do share an unspoken language and sometimes we do get it wrong but, even then, there is an understanding that only an empath can recognize with ease. And I am glad you are here, too, and posting again.
Halloo K, This has been a frustrating week, as my schedule has allowed zero time for posting (or even reading) anything. Looking forward to an indulgent day of catch-up on everyone’s posts. Though we’ve never met, you and this community have helped me recover more than all the well-meaning normals in my life, combined.
Thank you, Merripen
Same here, you and everyone on the blog have had a phenomenal role in my recovery, as well. Sunday is usually my catch up day. The IRL people around me are useless. Mostly narcs.
Q. Where the hell are all the empaths for christ’s sake?
A. On narcsite
Hi K,
re: “Where the hell are all the empaths for christ’s sake?”
I ask myself that question almost every day 🙂
E.B.
ha ha ha….I know, right! Narcs are everywhere, my normals don’t get it and my IRL empath is a basket case! WTF!
Thank you, I was wondering, too.
EB, NarcAngel, Clarece, K, et all,
Thanks for asking/wondering about me. I’ve missed all of you all, too. I had to be away from the blog for a time to let me completely focus, prepare and recover from a lengthy trip. Finally able to be back!
I’ve felt bereft without you all. This blog is like a support group for me. My narc related problems are more residual scarring anymore, but the sense of learning, community and understanding really helps me better understand and deal with both my past and present. I’ve always been a rather odd duck, but I feel at home here. 😊
Hi Windstorm, 🙂
Welcome back 🙂 I am so glad to hear from you again. I hope you had a great trip. I am looking forward to seeing you here and interacting with you more often 🙂
Windstorm
I was worried that weirdo in the gas mask got to you and I was going to have to come down there blaring both versions of Oh Canada on the car stereo to flush you out.
NA
NarcAngel
😄😄😄
NA,
Hahaha – I wish there was something like a LOL button :‑D
I’m glad our friend Windstorm wasn’t abducted by the lady in the gas mask :’‑)
EB
Made me laugh! Where I live we’re all too paranoid and secretive to get abducted! Too much clandestine illegal activity here.
I met a State Trooper (our highest law enforcement) at my school and found out he’s from my county. When he heard what part of the county I’m from, he gave me “the eye.” He asked what road I live on and then said, “Oh, yes. I know THAT road. I’ve been down THAT road lots of times!” 😄
Windstorm,
Hahaha – Oh yes, THAT road! Weird things going on like unexplained paranormal activity, alien attacks and abductions, locals wearing gas masks … 🙂
To Narc Affair and 12345,
Thank you for your replies to my comment about self-reflection and being angry about the narc. Your replies are both helpful and I can very much relate to them. It feels great to communicate with people like you who understand the situation.
Narc Affair,
I find your comments are very true to life and helpful. You help me to see things in a certain way. You have a great way of explaining the reality and how this dynamic affects “victims”. I agree with you that there are no perfect families. It helps to think about this because it makes you see that other people and situations are also imperfect, so there’s less need for wanting something that doesn’t really exist. It decreases the size you place on your own flaws when you realise that.
12345,
Yes, anger is a futile emotion that only robs the angry person of happiness and peace. And, like you say, it keeps you in a state of emotional thinking that still feeds the narc, even though they don’t even know it. It just zaps your own energy.
Looking back over many years, I think I have attracted more narcs than genuine caring people, so that’s taken its toll too. I can generally spot them a mile away, however, for various reasons (work, neighbours, family) I have “low contact” because “no contact” is not always possible. When it’s possible, I go fully no contact, and it’s a wonderful feeling to just walk away. It would be nice to have more empathic people around. It feels like a battlezone otherwise.
All the best to both of you 🙂
Hi (((wisernow)))…ty for your sweet post and im glad you can relate to my posts. Im still in the midst of my own journey too. It is so helpful to find others that get what youre going thru and can offer feedback as well. Im grateful to HG and this blog along with all the commenters here its really made such a difference in my life and lifted the fog. If i can help someone with my posts then that makes me very happy bc ive gained so much help here 🤗 best wishes for a happier future!
Thank you Narc Affair,
Your posts and those of other commenters really do help. It’s reassuring to know that we are not alone with this experience.
HG and this blog has made a huge difference in my life as well 😊
Narc Affair,
You have helped me, too. More than I have communicated to you these last months of radio silence. You feel like a kindred spirit and your journey touches me deeply. So, thank you.
Hi again Narc Affair,
By the way, your comment describing the smaller picture and the bigger picture is spot on. It’s a good way of looking at it 👍🏼
For a long time, I have been focused on narcs and their behaviour. I was looking at the small picture. While doing that, I didn’t really include my own behaviour in the dynamic.
It was a bit like walking around an exhibit in a museum studying the subject while thinking, well, now I know why ‘you’ did all those things.
I’m starting to see the bigger picture now. I can see how and why the dynamic happened in the first place and why it continued for so long. It takes two to tango.
My need to be validated and to ‘belong’ and to ‘fix’ things and improve the situation made it impossible to walk away. It was a constant loop and it was addictive. Also, there was/is a basic fault in my thinking and that is that I think that I can fix them while remaining unchanged myself. Ha! As if I could ride in like Wonder Woman on a white charger and round them up with my golden lasso. Yeah right! Like that will ever happen 🤣
The thing is that it can’t be ‘fixed’. I don’t have the power or ability to fix it. By trying to, I’m only reinforcing my own damage by being involved. I think this is sort of the bigger picture that you mentioned.
Each person only has the power to change themselves. Part of this change is self-reflection and self-protection.
Thank you for helping me to see this and to believe it more fully in my own mind.
Hi merripen…ty for your kind post! I noticed you are back and was happy to see you posting! I really enjoyed your writing so creative and i can really identify with! Keep posting youve been missed!! Your posts have been so helpful 🤗
Hi wisernow…thats such a good point about how with trying to change others you yourself change and not in a good way bc you remain around the toxicity. Youre right just being around it ends up poisoning your life. Its not easy writing that but it is true.
The narc i most wanted to change was my mother. I struggled for years and shed so msny tears wanting her to be the type of mother i so wanted to have. I felt every daughter deserved this image of a mother but as the years went by and i learned about narcissism i realised life is not fair. Thats reality. I wasnt born into a family with a healthy minded mother emotionally. So im taking what i do have and reconstructing my own version in my life thru therapy and this blog, others like you posting here and self help books/vids. Its helped immensely!
I no longer care if she changes bc i no longer rely on that to happen.
I find it difficult to consider myself a victim, and I am not saying this negatively, just I needed this particular situation to slap me aside the head and finally look at me. I am grateful, for the pain and anxiety and lack of sleep and confusion and loss of money, self esteem, confidence and all of it. I am only out of this a few months but I am wholly and entirely different on a visceral level.
For whatever reason, a switch just flicked off after five years of bullshit all of which I participated in, some knowingly (like apologizing when I did nothing wrong and fully aware of doing this etc) and some unknowingly.
I remember, very distinctly the very first silence, it is as clear as day, and I played out every single conversation (read HG’s entire blog/book collection this is talked about) to figure out what I had said or done to have him go poof.
I finally caught on and mirrored it back after several times and he came running, I thought okay, maybe we can get on the same page now, nope. He too drinks, heavily, which I made excuses for. Every single bell went off for me, I ignored them all. I have gone back through my relationships and each and every one, including girlfriends, has an element of my subservience, putting myself and my needs aside to please the other, some to my detriment.
What finally clicked this time is that the love I have so earnestly “given” and have wanted in return, is already within me. In other words, I am the love … love, for me, is not what you give or get, it is a reflection of what I am. This helped me to understand the choices I have at my disposal at any given moment in every single situation.
I am forever grateful for the guy who flicked the switch for me, I am grateful to have found this blog, and many many many other books and discussion groups all of which helped me to understand that I am not my emotions. I need not look outside of me for love. I am the love that I am seeking and trust that reflecting this, along with right choices, that the right relationships will show up at the right time.
I no longer feel needy or lonely … I swear it is like something cracked me open and filled me up with light. Reading the many comments is encouraging as it shows so many are on the road to healing. I wish everyone the best on their journey, because there is light at the end.
I honestly can say that I have absolutely no emotional connection to this past guy or the few before him where I literally lost years of my life pining, trying to comprehend what was wrong with me. I also believe that there is nothing outside of myself that can fill me completely, no man, no relationship, no amount of money, no car or house or anything, I am perfect as is.
I have bad moments, the ones where I fall back into toxic thinking, and all those emotions surface, but they are like clouds now, they are there and then they are gone because I choose NOT to dwell on the emotions. My gut feelings have always been right, I could have ran the very first time I knew something was not right, but what was not right was I was looking outside of me to fill me up.
I believe I was lucky in that there was never a “golden period” with this fellow, though the previous few there was, so this may have made it easier for me to finally get it, but I still spent years in a ball of misunderstanding, tears, anxiety, pain and tip toeing around what I said and did.
I actually look forward to seeing this guy again, there is no way, not a chance in this life that he could change me back to what or how I was with him. I am, if you will, reborn, not the religious type of reborn, but reborn with boundaries AND A HEART.
I do pray that he is not a narcissist, I pray he has feelings and will find joy in this life, but I wish this for everyone, and now include myself. I know what I am and who I am now, and I don’t need anyone, I don’t even want anyone who is not self aware, I somehow believe that I won’t be alone forever, whether someone shows up or not. I just feel complete, I literally feel it physically.
I laugh again, I am happy again, I wake up full of energy to greet the day, and those moments when the toxic thinking rings in my head, I stop and make a choice, no, not going there. If this is denial, so be it, I am who I was always meant to be and would not be in this place had I not had all the experiences of pain, chaos, and toxicity in my life whether thru people or experience, but mostly my own tormenting of myself.
Thank you all for reading. I truly wish you all well. You will all get there. It took me many many many many years to finally choose to change how I perceived me, relationships, love etc. It has been quite the journey, and I look forward to the next bend in the path.
This is beautiful…. your statements regarding love in the reflection of the self resonate with me. There is a song by Jamila woods called holy…. it pretty much shares this sentiment and your amazing outlook reminded me of it. It may not be the style of music liked by all but I would recommend all to check it out… her whole album haven is amazing in my opinion. But as a single song holy will remind you of that exact sentiment- you can validate yourself and you can complete yourself! Thank you for sharing this, it made me smile x
Thank you so much!
Notnecessary
That was very honest. Being clear on your part in the involvement is the key to breaking the pattern and will see you to success.
Thank You for reading and sharing.
NN@TT, beautiful!
Hi, nn@tt…. I just thought to share this with you also ( link below) . Maya Angelou reciting one of her poems Still I rise. She was one of my favourite poets, an inspiration and a blessing… your comment reminded me of this poem also, as well as the song stated below. So sorry to bombard you, your post had a positive effect on me to make me think or these amazing women and the underlying message we all need to learn. We are enough and all we need to be right now … x
https://youtu.be/qviM_GnJbOM
Hello,
All of the above !! I have had more experiences than the average person since I have dated or been seduced by dozens…sigh….There are traits in me that “they” like and traits in them that I like- if I am honest. I have to use my willpower to simply end it immediately when the first red flags appear….I hear it in the way they use language…word choice honestly….It’s similar to Aspergers but there is a difference…they will use language that is slightly off…indicating that they don’t pick up social and language cues from others OR you hear a disconnect between their words and emotions. I believe this is primarily a disconnect between thecognitive abilities and affective ones. AND as someone who is the opposite – I do find them fascinating….I know what they want…how to respond…and honestly the idealization feels really amazing while it lasts.
I like the intelligence, the achievment, and the competitive ..and charm.
BUT many broken hearts later….I do simply acknowledge who and what they are as early as possible….throw in some flirtation or flattery and get the heck out….Then I end up with many hoovers for months….A very poor and dangerous substitute for true intimacy- sadly. But…there’s a poem called an autobiography in 5 chapters….I’m no longer ignorant of the great danger they pose….I simply need to find a way to choose a new street. (Not needing such an intense romantic experience with someone who feels and acts like a superstar….but a quiet, gentle, boring but feel relationship with someone solid.) I’m not there YET but hopefully will be there one day.
Having N parents does not help….so I’m probably the wounded variety plus I have some positive traits they enjoy including my looks. But…being preyed upon is awful and they do try to collect women they find attractive. It’s not a benefit if you’re an empath….
I have been trying to pretend I’m a bee-yatch or diva but I usually forget and fall back into the listening, caring, loving mode that they feast on. I really don’t know the answer here…how to be me without falling into relationships with THEM. And not needing to obtain love from one…which is clearly the deep need of my inner child. Sad.
This was a hard one to answer, as I could have checked every single one, but I can only speak for myself, where I would say it is the top 3 in the vote category.
I think all ‘victims’ regard themselves differently so I’m only responding to how I viewed myself during my ensnarement and I purposely did not read other comments before responding.
I had to reflect a bit on this one since it’s been more than a decade since the ensnarement.
I thought I was mostly emotionally healthy back then. I was confident in most areas of my life. My attention was drawn elsewhere to family members who’s health was in jeopardy – other than that I was mostly intent on improving myself. I was embarking on a new career.
I had exited a long-term relationship that I did not view as abusive but it did leave me quite disillusioned about love and future relationships. Being out of a committed relationship I decided to just date for a while but gave up that without much regret. I met my narc when I was least expecting to while in a place and situation where few people would be looking for ‘love’ – other than perhaps, a narc. He was physically attractive, made an impression on me, we talked a fair amount on common subjects; I gave him my business card and in return he gave me his cellphone number. I was too busy to be involved with anyone at the time but two months later I contacted him (he had not followed up with me)…so he initially pursued me but then later I sought him out.
In hindsight I realize now that he met certain needs of mine (in the golden period) that were not met in my previous relationship.
So I would choose:
– A healthy person who has the misfortune to be ensnared by a predator
– A naive person who fails to heed the red flags that are on display
– A person who (for whatever reason) needs the way a narcissist behaves but did not go looking for it
Hi, I have been reading the blog for a few months but yet to post, I hope not to go too Charles dickens on this one as I’m sure you don’t want to hear another life story. But this poll intrigued me to reflect further on my experience.
I have a limited experience of time interacting with a middle mid ranger, for just under a year before my disengagement. I was a shelf ipss. I am married, I have never been unfaithful prior to this, I never sought it or wanted it before. At this point I’m very hopeful that what I have read in the sense of your support for one another and kindness may lend itself to not judge me too harshly, I have done a sufficient job of this myself tbh. I was a non intimate secondary source for the greatest period of time in this scenerio.
– a person with particular traits having a narcissist drawn to them- well yep this is me typical standard empath, I have no idea what cadre I am in and it’s probably of no real consequence. I am open, approachable, talk to everyone give time and respect to all I meet. However I do not believe I can fix people, I learnt in my career that this is not my responsibility. But I do offer help and support, he went in the pity play route on second meeting and I heard about his trauma in childhood.
– a person who is healthy but momentarily vulnerable- I relate to this as at point of meeting him I did not know who I was anymore. I had lost a lot of weight the year prior and was continuing to do so over the time he was in my life. My internal had not caught up with the external…. in my head I was still a fat giant ! I was only just starting to see that I did look better, more attractive.. some narcissistic repressed traits were bubbling to the surface. He had limited charm but he used it. Initially in the pretext of being a good friend, in this capacity I put him in my heart and overvalued him. I don’t know if this is a standard empath trait but my value of connections with people is very high, my friends are valued and very much loved by me… and they know it.
– A person who needs the way a narcissist behaves but does not go looking for it- again I relate to this. I do believe that I was meant to meet him, I was meant to learn from him. I was neive and had shocking boundaries ( clearly) no one had ever tested them before. It took a narcissist to test them, he did the standard pity plays, false promises, intermittent reinforcement, silent treatments, no shows to planned meeting times . I did not really provided negative fuel but was pretty abundant with the positive fuel when together and early on. I feel that I was strong to a point and still held value for myself, I didn’t chase him or react to silent treatments, even when I didn’t know what he was, my gut told me not to react.
However on the flip side I did choose to be with him when i did know what he was ( I worked it out about 5 Months in due to patterns of behaviour) a combination of pity plays, feeling a stupid sense of obligation, not wanting to hurt him by saying no because I cared for him ( I know pathetic) and the final element of that fact that the narcissist had drawn out the dirty empath steak and a part of me just wanted to …
It is likely to be his perception that I did not chase him because he had control of me and I was being put in my place. It is probably also his perception that he conquered my boundaries and got what he wanted due to his sexual magnetism- this is not my truth…
I Was deleted 2 months later as I was no longer contacting him, responding to his bait. I believe he did it to get me to react but I did not, but oh the damage was done due to my overvaluation of him as a person I still cared for. It took all of my resolve and rational mind not to contact or react, to ignore him another two months later following disengagement, when I saw him in person and he placed himself a foot away from me to gain a reaction.
I am aware that the majority of people linked to this blog have experienced years of abuse, potentially by multiple people. I am aware that this situation is relatively nothing compared to some of the experiences I have read about. But I guess that it is relative, and for me this brief interaction had a significant affect on me. Bad and good.
I think that it has been difficult for me personally because of my insignificance, I was just a shelf ipss, and certainly not something I could openly talk about.
The positives gained are I now know myself better then ever before in my lifetime. I value myself. ( guilt still very much a part of the picture) but I like who I am and I have started to work on accepting all traits in the fore and the shadow. I know I will be forever susceptible to narcissists, but I would like to believe that I have a resilience to the ones I may encounter in real life !
I thank you all for reading this, I have really valued your posts and advise to date.
Xx
Welcome Quasi and thank you for commenting about your experiences.
Pleasure.
This is so elegantly written.
Thank you, that is a very kind of you. X
Hi Quasi. You’re not alone. TX 4 the sharing.
Thank you Melinda, I really appreciate that. There are some lovely people on here. X
Very interesting Poll .It is difficult though to give a straight answer. It depends on several factors from both sides: the side of the empath ( which innate character traits are predominant, which learned behaviours are present ,if acquired from childhood in abusive environment or not) and of the narcissist(which school-cadre they belong to, status of the fuel matrix, the aimed position for the empath in the fuel matrix etc.)
These observations arise from the knowledge given here, the contributions of the bloggers and my own experience and are based on two assumptions:
1. This poll is considering just the target group “empath” which is ,as far as I understand the main target group of interest to the narcissist.
2. That this ensnarement is of a romantic type ( leaving family ,social and work aside)where the cycle of abuse is more evident.
Being an empath or empathic person is not unhealthy ,is not a weakness is not a disorder per se.
But the empath can turn to be unhealthy ( damaged) if she/he is raised in an abusive environment where she/he learns that abuse is part of a relationship and as a consequence they do not develop the skills to recognise, address internally and control their emotions nor to define strong personal “ healthy”boundaries. Then these factors make them vulnerable and easier to be ensnared by basically all schools of narcissists.
Considering that bonding is a normal and natural occurrence between people in an interpersonal relationship that grows over time :
Yes A BOND can be created by a narcissist even with a healthy ,strong (intelligent )empath with strong personal boundaries if the narcissist is highly effective and the empath’s guard is temporarily down being perhaps
attracted of curiosity by the intensity offered by the narcissist (not matched perhaps in other normal relationships )and in contrast with her former romantic normal relationships and being totally unaware of what is behind this faked “intensity”.
I do not believe though that all schools of narcissists can succeed in seducing and ensnaring a healthy empath with strong boundaries.
So a correlation can perhaps be made between “school” of empath (considering as well the empaths learned behaviours and coping mechanisms from childhood) and school and cadre of narcissist.
What is interesting to analyse and where the main differences appear is :
WHAT happens WHEN the bond turns to be a TRAUMATIC BOND( when the cycles of intermittent reward and punishment begin after the Golden Period):
and how intense it is .
I believe that a trauma bond ( defined as the feeling of tension that happens when someone holds two conflicting beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time) occurs in two instances within a relationship with a narcissist:
When the empath performs an action that contradicts already existing personal (core) beliefs and values( staying with the narcissist although knowing that this contradicts her/his initial values and beliefs of a normal relationship) and also when the empath is confronted with new information that contradicts their initial belief of the narcissist when he/she created a false image ( illusion) with what is really happening when his /her cycles of abusive behaviour begin.
1. The traumatic bond is stronger for people who have grown up in abusive households because for them the abuse seems to be a normal part of relationships.That is where the group “unhealthy”/damaged individuals can be distinguished. This manifests as well on the recurrence of abusive (romantic)relationships.
2. The intensity ,duration and impact of this trauma bond varies depending on:
a) The effectiveness of the abuser in the intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment creating powerful emotional bonds that are resistant to change.
b)The effectiveness of the narcissist in keeping at bay the cognitive dissonance ( gap between my belief of him before the abusive behaviour and the reality of his abusive behaviour).
c) When an how this dissonance manifests itself within the “victim”.
When this dissonance turns to be an internal conflict , a “healthy “empath with stronger boundaries and stronger core beliefs would recognise it and address it differently to an empath coming from an abusive family environment .
d)This cognitive dissonance is coped with in different ways:
by accepting the abusive behaviour and rationalising it finding excuses (by unhealthy “ empaths) creating an internal conflict that manifests by anxiety, depression or symptoms of stress or by recognising it earlier ( by healthy empaths) and addressing it differently by controlling emotions ,breaking the trauma bond and finally leaving the narcissist.
Depending on how “healthy” the empath is initially is what defines the form/intensity duration and impact of this trauma bond in an
abusive relationship.
Chances are higher ( but not exclusive) to detect this pattern and leave the toxic abusive relationship for the empath that is initially healthy and has strong personal boundaries and has the ability of controlling his/her emotions.
Well these are my observations.
Finding these polls very educational and concluding:
Being an empathic person (empath) is not unhealthy it is not a weakness. When recognising unhealthy patterns from childhood that do not allow one to see and define strong personal boundaries working to break these patterns will improve the skills needed to recognise, internalise, address and control one’s emotions to define strong personal boundaries.
You may be a target for a narcissist but that does not mean she/ he will succeed in ensnaring you and dragging you into a trauma bond.
Hello Superxena
Well said.
Hello Twilight!
Thank you!
“a trauma bond ( defined as the feeling of tension that happens when someone holds two conflicting beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time)”
This definition applies so much to how I was feeling when with the N… It reminded me of Orwell’s Doublethink even back then. I just didn’t have the strength to choose my ‘think’ at that time.
Hello Morning sun,
Just precisely when you are in the middle of this addiction /traumatic bond with repeated reinforcements( alternating saviour -punisher) you do not have this Doublethink. You do not think, that is the issue , you just feel tension. It creates an inner conflict .If the addictive traumatic bond is very strong it produces anxiety,depression and stress.
That is exactly why HG stresses the importance of NO Contact while you are going through this process as he thoroughly describes it in the articles about the emotional battles .
The aim of NO contact is not really making the narcissist to go away ( they never really do it) but to :
– give you the time to grasp your feelings giving you the strength to control them and allowing you to THINK.
– by going NO CONTACT you are also taking away from the narcissist the possibility of making this bond stronger by reinforcing it . It diminishes the tension you feel allowing you to get your strength back and to be more rational instead of emotional. When you get to this point, you can establish again your personal boundaries.
Therein lies the importance of No Contact.
Morning sun… I like the idea of my think. I heard myself saying Saturday to a man I dated.
All my life I met man and then drafted my idea of a relation I wanted based on what they were-
I made my wanting fit what they were.
Now I want to define my relation needs and find someone who will fit it.
I surprised myself saying that … but this is what happen when you don’t know where your real needs etc are because you base them on the needs of the Narc.
Wow super xena, this is an amazing analytical breakdown of the poll, and understanding of the empath and narcissist’s potential dynamics. I completely agree with your conclusions and I thank you for this post, I found it very educational and validating.
Hello Quasi,
Tank you for your comment. I really appreciate it. I am glad that you find my analysis helpful .
It really warms my heart.
Hi SuperXena,
This is a great analysis and you have described it in a detailed way that’s also easy to understand.
I can relate to it a lot. It helps to see more clearly the complex way an empathic person’s emotions are affected when it is explained like this.
Hello WiserNow,
Thank you!
It makes me very happy to know that you find it helpful , easy to understand and that you can relate to it. Sometimes putting words to what and how we feel ,articulating it and conveying it makes it easier to (rationally )comprehend it and grasp it.
HG, have you ever found a source that you could send was near? Just feel the electricity of something tasty with no input other than knowing with out a doubt what you needed was near and an incredible source?
I ask because this little question was something new. I can taste smell like fire in the blood the danger and the promise of the dance a greater narcissist exudes like sparks of excited sensual static down my skin. It is a magnetic siren with no ability to draw away, why I live far from people.
I wondered if they can taste me in the wind as I do them?
I do not feel the electricity but I recognise when an excellent target has wanted into my sights.
Spot on HG
Thank you.
Cluster Bees seek the same Honey: 🐝
Ensnarement. As an adolescent and into young adulthood, I had no insight as to why I ended up replicating my childhood trauma through involvement with the Narcissist. I was too busy trying to survive the symptoms from said trauma. As I continued on in therapy and learned the “why” and how to adequately protect myself, I found that even armed with such insights, I continued to fall prey to the Narcissist. Neuro-biological changes had occurred in my brain in childhood and carried over into my adult life.
(see: Scars that won’t heal: the neurobiology of child abuse. Scientific American, 2002 March Vol. 286 Issue 3 pp 68-75 Author: MH Teicher ).
Much later in therapy it was difficult to admit that perhaps it was I, who was seeking them out. I shan’t use the term addiction to Narcissists, since it carries a connotation of a lack of choice. I shall use the word preference. The world becomes amazing technicolor when there is engagement with a Greater/Sociopath, but so very grey with any other. That said, foreseeing the inevitability of the discard makes this a high stakes cat and mouse scenario that offers for some, an intellectual adrenaline rush. Not to mention the amazing ‘that-wasn’t even-human-mind-blowing-sex.”
I can only speak for myself in choosing an already damaged person. My father is a sociopath, my mother is a narcissist, my first step father was (dead) a sociopath, my second stepfather (dead) was a narcissist. All before I turned 20. I was “going home” in every relationship I had. Now I don’t go home. I have the fortune most don’t have which is getting to learn that that I never learned healthy intimacy skills and that I GENERATE THE RESULTS IN LIFE THAT I THINK I DESERVE. That wasn’t a written attempt at screaming, it’s just the most important affirmation I tell myself.
I chose those people and remained with those people because I truly believed that’s all I deserved. I deserved garbage because I believed I was garbage. It took a narcissist, HG mostly and a select group of women on this blog, to show me that I’m not garbage. Who would’ve thought? The most intense, highest level, most dangerous narcissist writing about how much more I’m worth.
My goal now is to keep learning my invaluable worth and not relying on someone else to give me worth. The buck stops here.
Oh, and thank you HG. You’ve taught me more about what healthy and unhealthy relationships look like than anyone else in my life. You’ve showed me what I will consistently receive in relationships with no boundaries to protect myself. You’ve convinced me that the pain of disconnecting from toxic people is worth every ounce of pain. I am forever grateful.
You are welcome.
An already damaged person who is thus susceptible to a narcissist
A healthy person who is momentarily vulnerable (for whatever reason) but otherwise would have resisted the narcissist
A person who has particular traits which means narcissists are always drawn to them.
I chose the above 3.
1. A damaged person overly empathetic traits can come from trying to fix everyone to avoid fixing themselves. Reap and Sow ..they are trying to pay or live up to a debt they never owed. They were damage by their circumstance and doesn’t realize it’s not their fault.
2. A person can live have healthy boundaries and self worth it can take one incident/situation to set them back. They are vulnerable and the narc can sense that as a opportunitist they will go for it. I think a normal person with healthy boundaries will leave sooner. A normal tends to think black and white as well imo. This is not normal I am out.
3. Because they look for empathetic traits which can be fake by most people, not all. All they carr about is the attention they receive. I have a pilot going on now. It’s funny to watch things unfold. I am an observer and it’s crazy as hell watching someone trying to triangulate you with another person and I have said a total of 10 words to him. 😊
I am grateful that I found this site and H.G. I have learned so much via this blog and resources that I couldn’t have gained in a lifetime.
In my case, I was raised by a narcissist mother, so I had a very skewed idea of what normal relationships were. I ended up dating or becoming friends with narcissists, most likely because subconsciously they felt familiar. Thankfully, I have learned who and what my mother is and that has allowed me to develop much better ‘narc radar’ so I know when to keep my distance.
that’s great you gained all the understanding to break free from. repeating patterns this is positive for future generations. I had all the back ground to becoming a narc myself but didn’t. maybe that means we are stronger than narcs. that’s why we learn and study when we have been tormented by them. maybe we are meant to be the teachers and HG has been given to us as a gift. love u HG xx
if narcs are ever cured I think they will still choose the empaths because even normal they will realise we are the best gift and if they are cured we will really match. maybe the conundrum is our true soul mates are under the narc curse and that’s why we fight so hard?
It doesn’t matter if you are healthy/damaged, the dynamic starts because of the selfish reasons. It makes you feel so good, you gain something out of it, be it attention, feeling sexy, acknowledge etc. Something is missing around that time and your emotional thinking and chemicals that are being released take over. However I do think the length of time you allow the dynamic to continue or keep falling for the same dynamic, says something about the addiction in yourself. It can be temporary, or a life long addiction. Just like other addictions, be it drugs, alcohol, nicotine some people will struggle all they life with it, some will get burned and never fall prey again.
Hi Lilly. ‘Something is missing . . . and your ET and chemicals (hormones) . . . take over.
You put into words what happened to me and ex. I had just moved from midwest USA to southwest . . . I hadn’t made friends yet . . . lonely . . . I know I will never fall prey again. HG is the best teacher . . . and one is only as good as their teacher . . . .
Yes Melinda, very recognisable. I got involved with a narc shortly after I ended my long time relationship with a ‘normal’ guy. And I sometimes willingly ignored the red flags because I had my own gain. But after awhile it was difficult to distinguish what kept me in the relationship, I believe this is where the addiction manifested. Also knowing that I needed to get out, but not knowing how. Eventually I escaped and with HG help staying away from all the narcs, not only romantically. No narcs for me anymore.
You nailed this! It is a breath of fresh air to be released from my own life-long erroneous perception of what love is. It is not something we give or get but it is what we are! I know I will never repeat this cycle again, in this life or any other, should there be another, the karma has been burned away!
I chose 1, 2 and last, because of the way the Q was framed – victim. I don’t think someone looking for a fix is a victim of the N, at most they are victims of themselves.
A person having particular traits that attract narcissists doesn’t necessarily get to the point of being ensnared – thus not making that type of person a victim automatically.
I believe otherwise healthy people can be temporarily vulnerable if in a bad place (after a nasty breakup, loss, etc.). I also think an angel with a dirty face type of N could ensnare a healthy person – whether they could then keep that person is a different matter.
I am not a victim, target, mark, sitting anything, etc., either. I made an unhealthy choice.
I chose
1- An already damaged person who is thus susceptible to a narcissist (the victim is a damaged individual who stands out to our kind and is always going to be targeted and ensnared because of this damage – whatever the damage may be).
2- A person who has particular traits which means narcissists are always drawn to them.
3- A naive person who fails to heed the red flags that are on display.
(1) Since I have been targeted by narcissists in different kinds of relationships like friendships, at work and so on, I always wanted to know why me and not others. I always knew there must be something wrong with me since other people I know are not targeted as often as I am. Just like a narcissistic parent choose a particular child as the family scapegoat (and not just any child), narcissists do not look for anyone in other kinds of relationships. I had to accept this painful truth.
Narcissists start watching other people’s behaviour in childhood. Since they have been practising their manipulations for years, they can identify potential victims’ *vulnerabilities and wounds* quite easily. They take advantage of these wounds to target and ensnare their victim.
(2) and (3) I think these particular traits are there because of the abuse the victim has endured in the past, especially in childhood by their primary caregivers. Again, I think the victim is damaged in some way.
Although healthy people have generic traits (as those described in the book ‘Sitting Target’), not everyone who has all those generic traits is necessarily healthy.
IMO and also from what I have seen and experienced until now, healthy or unlucky people who are momentarily vulnerable will *not* let a narcissist ensnare them. They have good enough boundaries, they can detect inappropriate behaviour in others and know how to protect themselves.
I disagree. I misjudged my ex. I am about 78% accurate reading people–Im good at it–I got conned. He is a Greater. Appropriate name.
HG, speaking of names, why did u choose to use supernova, the death of a star, a vast explosion of such intensity that it can barely be imagined, to describe an empath’s fury? Drama? . . . but it’s the DEATH of a star . . . .
It is the explosion that is relevant. Not the death of a star even though yes, that is what a supernova appertains to.
What do you disagree with, Melinda?
All three I chose were exactly me.
***An already damaged person who is thus susceptible to a narcissist***
I have worked directly on the root causes which made me susceptible. I don’t feel the pull anymore.
***A naive person who fails to heed the red flags that are on display***
Not realizing I was attracted to narcissists, there were no red flags to watch for. Until 2 years ago when my journey to unravel my need for narcissism began.
***A person who (for whatever reason) needs the way a narcissist behaves but did not go looking for it***
No matter who I was attracted to or what they looked like the inherent traits were still the same. I didn’t know that was the case. Someone pointed out to me once that maybe there was something about me that attracted these traits. If I changed “my need for narcissism or for people who are emotionally unavailable” then maybe I might be attracted to different traits and ultimately be attracted to different people.
I agree w/you, Narc Affair –
one who knows their intrinsic value is much less likely to cross paths w/the narcissist and/or be drawn in. Or on the off-chance they initially succumb to the illusion, it’s unlikely they’d stick around for more once their healthy boundaries are crossed.
And yet… I can’t help but believe there remains a small window/space of susceptibility for everyone – “healthy” or no. None of us can be immune to the wiles of some narcissists. Let’s face it, some are just too damn good.
That’s when self-compassion is most needed – to engage in that process you speak of – self-reflection/truth telling, applying love to the life lessons we encounter, helping & connecting w/others, and opting to choose a new narrative for our lives.
And I hear how difficult it is for you to see your friend suffering. I can relate – I’ve had that friend and I’ve been that friend. And I am all about doing whatever we can to avoid ever being ensnared again!
I don’t sympathize with word “victim” at all. Narcissist work hard on himself – he builds himself like an ideal, absorbing hypersensitively wishes of his surrounding, and all the fairytales condition girls from the deep childhood to look for such ideal. It’s hard to resist, when you see you dream materialized, isn’t it?
Anyone, absolutely normal, can believe another person. Who knows that beautiful person is a narcissist at first? The nice person, who becomes offended in unpredictable places, but if you are normal – you give him chances and chances, and forgive your partner… And from the different side, anyone can have traits desirable for narcissist. Be beautiful, have status, be popular and so on. You’ll have some narcissists around you merely on this basis already.
I think if you are “same damaged”, I mean share original family environment (so overlook early signs or red flags), it will just increase your chances to end up in deep relations with the narcissist. You can look for his confidence, adore him more long time and comply, giving up the control, more than normal person.
But nothing is wrong with you if you are just bright enough to attract narcissists in some ways.
I chose:
“A person who has particular traits which means a narcissist is drawn to them.”
and
“A healthy person who is momentarily vulnerable (for whatever reason)…
and
“A healthy person who had the misfortune to be ensnared by a predator”
Narcissists prey on people who are honest, empathic, conscientious and tenacious. These traits are not unhealthy.
Also, yes, I was vulnerable. I was a child being manipulated by my mother at first. I don’t know how much more vulnerable you could get.
The other vulnerabilities included having the goal of living “successfully” in a world that is (so far) largely ignorant of the way narcissists behave and manipulate. I generally believed in stereotypes and social norms and largely went along with them, even though I often had subconscious doubts that I couldn’t define properly or fight against without harming my own prospects.
Is this being naive or gullible? I’m not entirely sure. To a narcissist it is. I don’t believe so though.
Whole groups or societies can be naive or gullible, depending on circumstances. The general lack of knowledge about narcissism together with wishful or ‘magical’ thinking can make it a rebellious act to be otherwise.
Whatever the case, I believe that having empathy and a conscience is far more “healthy” than not having them.
“A person who repeatedly attracts narcissists (for whatever reason) and is unable to resist the force of the seduction (7%, 43 Votes)”
I’d have expected this in the top 3
– I relate to all these things, they have something that normal people lack which i have an addiction to, a pattern of familiarity with, which is connected to trauma but also the positive qualities i have – and i do have a healthy mind as well, it’s just i have vulnerabilities that are activated on some situations more than others.
As I told Canadian Immigration authorities when I reported him to them that I thought he would be respectable and of good character. After all he is an Assistant Professor with a Phd and also an Internet Predator! I still can’t get over the shock of what he is.
wow
The interesting thing about people’s answers is that there could be a correlation between the answers given and where the victim is in the recovery stage
Early in my recovery from my 2nd ensnarement by Narc 1 i felt I was a completely healthy person that had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. I remember it being suggested by a 3rd party that I could be codepebdent which I COMPLETELY rejected. I remember thinking WTF ? This guy is a complete whacko and you want to say I had some hand in this? Oh hell no!!! I wasnt having it. As I noticed I just couldn’t seem to get over it, I felt like it was necessary to talk to a professional. Long story short, yep I am a Codependent.
I think if you ask someone who has been newly disengaged from and then ask them 2 years later you may get entirely different answers.
“A target can be anyone” yes that’s true but it usually isnt. Narcissists are efficient and know exactly what they are looking for.
Lori this is so true. Each Narcissist has a type and way of what type of victim works for them. THEY see if they can groom us…DO you like that word Groom. They are like Pedophilia grooming the child that trust them. The mentally Sick, who knew where to find supply. THEY we have some type of wound. They find that wound and some how have us share it. Then when they start messing with our minds. They stick their hand in that wound. They take it out, beat it up, mess it up. Then they put the wound back, put a band-aid on it, act like nothing happened and sooth us…That is when the hit starts hitting the fan. We were violated. We had our rights taken away with lies. Did you agree to be in a relationship of lies and deception. I didn’t people say everyone cheats and lies…BUT did they get mentally mind fucked raped…I think not as we got brain washed. Hitler, Charlie Manson, Heaves Gates, Jim Jones had mass followers…What was their magnetism of capturing people..
They have been around since the beginning of time . . . their stories are told in the Bible, all mythology. They are the dictators of olde, manifestors, barbarians, savages . . . the first narcissist was Satan.
You got band-aids from him? I never did😄
Hi Spiritual Warrior,
“They are like Pedophilia grooming the child that trust them. ”
This is a good comparison. Narcissists do not groom any child. They do not groom healthy children with a strong support network. They choose their victims very carefully. They look for vulnerable children from broken families and also those without support or protection. Their victims are gullible, need attention and someone to care for them.
If you are Codependent the wound is the same that’s why their preferred victim is a Codependent. Oh the Narc and the Codependent these 2 hook up and it’s like margin in the beginning because they feel like home to each other. And then they both start to attempt to exert control and the dance begins
Interesting Lori
I am not codependent, a slight trait yes. I have never “felt” home with any narcissist except one. I believe this thou is more due to balance.
I believe it depends on the school of Narcissist, not that any of them would just let a codependent “free”, only that the challenge is not much of one.
My ex once spoke of the dance…my only response to him was, you lead I follow first time you step on my toes I will stomp on yours.
Our relationship was different in many ways yet similar in many.
Interesting Melinda I have often thought Narcs are children whose souls died from neglect then Satan took up residence
1, I think victims are damaged, as are narcs in childhood and the victims needy and they are empathetic because they are so familiar with emotional pain and like positive and negative, this has gone to the extreme of both cases.
I spent my childhood craving love I never had from parents and the delight of the love bombing was out of this world to me and as soon as the devalutation started those old wounds of fighting for absent love were opened up again and the sheer agony associated.
It seems to me that
The Victim identifies her pain of emptiness always and her goal is to seek a cure of true love with one special person, that is clear to the Narc.
Whilst the Narc deny’s his pain and lives a fantasy with the aid of his victims who become his fantasy accomplices, who take the wrath when he fails and cannot maintain the fantasy with the special one.
2. The victims have traits that draw the Narc. I think the traits are people that are very open people, smiley always trying to please and bring happiness and gain love back to fill the emptiness inside them.
I think the Narc sees the neediness of that person who wants to gain approval from people around them and therefore will fight harder to make the happy.
The Narc can see that person is very desperate to be loved and desired especially by someone they find highly attractive then their neediness is hard to hide, they cannot help but to flirt and the passion shows in their eyes and is given off in therimones which the Narc is programmed to sense.
3. The person as described above attracts the Narc and cannot resist the force of seduction because they are so intoxicated by the idealisation stage and the sexual energy is highly charged. The desire is immense and inflamed by the sense of security and safety this promise of never ending love gives.
The childhood neglect wounds are treated but also the the victim is generally highly sexed because to them it demonstrates the love and also brings the words of love to life and enriches the security. A reassuring manifestation of the love energy so desperately needed.
The feeling of being greatly desired sexually as well as emotionally is great fuel to a needy empath. Needy because they were deprived of love as a child.
That’s why in devaluation their hearts are truly ripped out as broken as their wounds rip open from childhood again, returning to that feeling of self worthlessness, providing the fuel of complete wish for death the Narc loves.
LYNN… Well put and I myself can relate to what you are saying … it’s all sad but true
I have seen a normal, healthy person fall for a narcicist, and she was bewildered when the relationship changed. I shared HG site with her when I saw the red flags early on, but it was to no avail. She would not listen until too late. Healthy people can learn a lot from empaths, and those unhealthy people working at becoming unhealthy. One thing we have is wisdom, after discovering HG’s blog.
Becoming HEALTHY. stupid spell check!
lol was that a good answer some supply to be polite but not jumping to your demands 😂 tbh I’m crap at it lol it really is the truth I’m busy tonight so typically I worry about upsetting someone I know whose trying to help me even if he is a beast. what a mega empath I am no hope for me 😁
Will answer asap I don’t have time atm
Pretty much all.of the above can be initially ensnared look at lack Peterson seems like a normal woman but married a man who would eventually kill her and her baby
I think all three scenarios are possible. I also believe that every person who begins a relationship with a narcissist has a feeling of warning. Unfortunately, due to childhood wounding or recent loss, the target ignores the feeling and moves forward in the relationship with the narcissist. I think the same circumstances apply when engaging with anyone who has a personality disorder.
To this day and after several.years I still cannot think of a single warning sign he gave me in the beginning I did not have a single bit of hesitation I had more hesitation in some other relationships that did not even turn out to be with a narc there was nothing I felt uneasy or suspicious about
A target can be anyone. It depends on the type of narcissist, fuel reserves and impulse control.
I agree Indy. Their need for fuel makes them a machine that’s built to manipulate, no matter where they find themselves, or who they are with.
Stockholm syndrome
I was everything he was not. I was the shiny star in his world of darkness. I was the mirror to show his ugliness. I was the victim that turned into a warrior. I was the one who didn’t make millions of dollars like him, who he tried to take down in court, I turned out to be smarter then him and was not afraid to go in front of the judge and fight him over the lies in his statement. I was NOTHING special, but yet gave him A high of supply he never had. The so called emphatic I maybe, connects me to more people I come across then he ever will because I am real and I have learned, instead of being scared of evil I LOOK it straight in the eyes, as I will not be taken down. Now his world maybe crashing down as Narcissist think they can’t be touched as they get too cocky for their own good. # The Me Too movement is taking Narcissist power away. There shall be no more fear~
Bill Cosby found GUILTY today
Karma and the Universe does prevail…We may not know when it will happen, but As I said before, Karma started getting him years ago. His son got murdered. He just lost his daughter not so long ago. Sometimes WE are part of karma. OJ went to jail for 10 years. My Narc. got sexually accused at his work. He either got down sized or had to be let go. Sometimes we are part of the doing of karma.
I try so hard not to think of myself as a victim. If I am a victim, then I feel powerless… As a victim, I might convince myself I couldn’t have avoided the situation, which means I may find myself in it again with the right hoover technique.
My first choice was that victims are “already damaged” and therefore susceptible to the narcissist. I think this most closely describes my situation but the word damaged makes me flinch a little. I didn’t feel damaged before my ensnarement, but I sure do feel that way now! I think some of the disfunction of my childhood made me less able to see when I’m being duped…. I never wanted to admit to being gullible, but I guess I am. I invariably believe there is good in everyone… still believe there is good in the crazy pants narcissist that plagues me…. but I’m now having to face the fact that, even if there is some good buried down in there somewhere, the bad outshines the good to such a degree that I can’t hang.
My second pick was the one about being naive (is that the same as gullible?)…. Naive, like gullible, has such a negative connotation. But I’m getting more comfortable with the fact that I can be really gullible when it comes to trust. I offer it completely from the start and then slowly take it away as it is abused…. I need to switch that around and offer little to none in the start and ratchet it up as people earn it… I have a hard time doing that, as I think most empaths do.
My last pick was the healthy person with the misfortune of being ensnared. However, the healthier the person, the more able he will be to disengage once he realizes the relationship is toxic. Healthy people might become ensnared, but I don’t think they are as likely to stay ensnared as we damaged and naive folks are….
I was a victim in different stages in my life. We need to honor our feelings. Everyone has their own time of healing. I get so sick of people saying bull shit things. Get over it. F them…The secret is to not stay stuck as a victim. We rise up of educating ourselves, sharing our story and helping others. I use to believe the only way you can invite evil in your life, is you are open and looking for it. Narcis are not human. They are missing a humanity switch. They are evil monsters. They are doing evil things over and over to new victims. I do not give them a pass at all.They are mind raping us.
Another great poll!
So many in the list i wouldve chosen bc most apply. The one i dont believe in is a healthy person with the misfortune of meeing the narcissist. Why? Because a healthy person has firm boundaries in place and knows their self worth. They dont keep coming back for more abuse. A healthy person can meet a narcissist and even be seduced but once the abuse starts they will put an end to it…thats why theyre healthy they protect themselves and have self worth and love.
I think the victims that are with a narc for years on end are with them for many reasons and as the poll asks the big reason at point of ensnarement is they had no “boundaries”! Why did they have no boundaries? Because somewhere inside of them their self worth was damaged or never developed into a healthy form of self love.
Im a firm believer in the journey of life and i feel our purpose here is to learn life lessons and to love and help others in the process. Part of that learning is engrained in us where we need to go back and fix the damages that werent healed from childhood. Thats why so often victims choose a narcissist to redo the scenerio and get it right this time but you dont bc you dont understand it was never your fault why you werent given what you needed to build that self love and worth. Thats where its imperitive after being in a narc abuse situation you dont pass blame on the narc and go along your merry way. No you seek help and you learn about yourself and why you were drawn to them.
Someone who i admire greatly struggles with this. She really feels it was all the narcs evil seduction and abuse but it wasnt. She kept going back many times. It wasnt her fault the abuse but she did allow it bc of the lack of self love and boundaries. Shes an amazing person but to heal you need true self reflection. Narcs cant truely self reflect and own their weaknesses but we can and as a victim im now more interested in what it is about me that attracted me to him and also the dynamic with my mother. How did it alter how i see myself and feel about who i am bc there is a ton of damage there and instead of blaming the narc i want to fix me.
So many view self reflection as “victim blaming” and it is not. No one deserves to be abused but understanding how it happened is crucial to avoiding it in the future.
I agree 100 percent. People with healthy boundaries do not dismiss that little voice that says warning something is not right here. They don’t repeatedly make excuses and let’s say by chance a healthy person does get taken in, they don’t allow repeated boundary violations. Nope they are out of there
Hi Narc Affair. I am the healthy person with good boundaries, not great, but good. I had never met the likes of him before . . . a Greater who knows how to manipulate and play the game to perfection. I think U believe in this response as u say in your blog they (me) don’t keep coming back for more. Again, as u state in ur blog, once the abuse started I was gone. I was like WTF??? He wanted to ‘keep’ me and wanted me to move in his home . . . there is a God! 🤗
Hi allreadygone….anyone can be seduced but i dont think anyone can be ensnared. Thats why you have boundaries and walk when those boundaries are infringed upon. They are there to protect and reflect how you feel about yourself.
Hi Narc Affair,
I really like your comment. I can relate to it a lot and I agree with what you say. I fully agree with you when you say that no-one deserves to be abused and that understanding how it happened is crucial to avoiding it in the future. That is so true!
I also believe that narcissists can turn a healthy person into an unhealthy one, so that is where I would add another dimension to what you say.
I was brought up by a narcissistic mother too and I can see how my boundaries were violated and how my thought patterns were manipulated and damaged by her. I can see how my life was affected in a very unhealthy way because I was cast into the role of the family scapegoat.
However, I still see myself as healthy underneath all of that. Yes, I was attracted to narcissists for a long time and this was an unhealthy way to live. I bought into the false image that I was brought up to believe in.
However, I always felt something wasn’t right even though I didn’t actually know why. I felt at odds with and rebellious about the role my mother wanted me to play but I couldn’t walk away and have “no contact”.
As an adult, I found myself in situations with narcissists many times and again, I felt that feeling of “something is wrong, but I don’t actually know why”. There was no way to label it or no-one to ask and openly discuss it with in a meaningful and concrete way. It was all speculation and opinion. It was like swimming in a deep pool and trying to touch the bottom with your feet to get a feeling of safety but never being able to. I ended those relationships wherever possible, because I knew they were toxic even though I didn’t know exactly why.
Now I have concrete answers and my underlying fears have been acknowledged as real. I finally know and it’s a good feeling. I think that my foundations are healthy, it’s just that what has been built on them was not as sturdy as I would like and I need to fix that.
Is this denial? It might be. But I feel that it’s a healthy response to want to improve your attitude and your life and to work towards doing that.
That is so true that a healthy person can be seduce but then she goes when she see the first signs of abuse. It happened to me with Narc 3. A friend from high school got seduced byt my Narc 3 and she saw right through him and went GOSO right at the begining.
That was her story that helped me healed from him ghosting on me after 4 years onto the relation. She was the messenger in an odd way – too long story for here but obviously she was placed on my routeagain after years for gifted reasons.
He told her he hated traveling: He told me he loved it and traveled the world with me
He told her he would get her pregnant : I pressed me unto an abortion
He told her he had some sexual ventures with other woman ( she probed him very smartly) than his wife: He told me I was the first one he cheated his wife with
etc etc…
The day she told me all this, I took a picture of her and her new husband and I and sent it to him and wrote : I know everything you bastard. Now I just wonder if I will send all of all around the world pictures to your wife 🙂
and I blocked him and unblocked him later for a few hatred fuel texts.
My friend and I almost went to meet with his wife that we know from highschool but decided that if she was ready to find out, things would come to her as they came to me when I was ready.
I can chose to say I was a victim and it is partly true and my friend as well – both of us at the onset of the story. But, we both reacted very differently to first signs of abuse because she is further than I am on self worth, healthy boundaries, reading the BS, need for validation etc.
So i got hurt big time, she went on with her life and married a very nice non narcisstic man.
I agree NA. I could never see why I went for the same person in different skin. I mean I would literally bitch and cry to friends about why they were so attracted to “me”. It was me looking for them to complete the story from birth! I think about all the people who never get to learn that or are too beaten down to learn it. It breaks my heart. The work SUCKS to unpack all the childhood shit. I would go to therapists and say “just so you know from the jump, I’m not talking about my parents”. Makes me laugh now but that’s how terrified I was to deal with the wreckage.
You are correct though. No one deserves the abuse of all this. As human beings no matter how damaged, they don’t deserve the abuse.
Good points 12345-
Funny that since I have stopped drinking I don’t attract drinkers. Most guys I meet don’t drink and before I would have bd who drank a lot with me .
I don’t attract the same type of guy – I guess I can also not attract Narc anymore if I don’t drink their kool aid anymore or don’t need their kool aid anymore.
Thank you for this comment Narc Affair. I can relate to it a lot. I have read it a few times and I find a lot of truth in it. I need to really let it sink in.
I think I am in a state of anger that my life has been affected so much by my narc mother. I think I’m fighting with myself trying to prove that it wasn’t my fault and that I am not as damaged as I actually am. The truth is I am damaged.
You are right. Self-reflection is very important. My dynamic with my mother and the rest of my family caused a lot of damage, especially to the way I see myself and the way I relate and respond to other people.
Blaming the narc will only get you so far and doesn’t really change anything. True change can only happen when we look at our own wounds and do the work to address them.
Thanks again for your comment 🙂
Hi WiserNow. I have been consumed with anger for my mother i.e. still giving her my emotional power even tho she didn’t know it. I still get that way sometimes but it’s so much less now that I have a year of no contact with her as of this Mother’s Day. All the emotional energy I spent on her is gone. It’s still so painful because I think I’ll forever grieve the mother I wish she’d been but it’s hard to sustain the anger piece and be okay. It twisted me somehow and made me so sad all the time. It’s not worth it anymore. I hope you have people in your life who can give you moments of good mothering. I’ve been blessed with people like that and it helps. Like a drink of water in the Sahara.
Hi wisernow….ty for your reply. I look at it this way so many look too closely at the situation instead of the bigger picture. A lot depends on your beliefs but i was looking very closely at the narc and my narc mother and i think in the beginning stages you have to to sort out the big picture. You learn first that you were dealing with a narc. What is a narc and why do they act the way they do. Then you broaden your view of the picture to yourself and why is it you were the way you were to allow this treatment and have no boundaries or weak ones. Why did you feel you needed them so much? Why didnt you walk away earlier?
Then as you learn about yourself andheal you see the whole picture and thats the fact you were damaged and the narc was your lesson in life. They were meant to learn from and move on. Depending on your beliefs you may even pray for the narcs in your life and forgive them. The big picture is all of it. The smaller picture is when youre just focused on the narc.
Love your words so profound i so agree, as painful as it is we should be glad that we have learnt the lesson and are reborn and equipped to move forward into a much healthier happy life. forewarned is forewarned. mind you not good to let the narcs think they are doing us a favour. if it wasn’t for them we wouldn’t need the lesson and happy already. thing is they can help us cos we can learn but we can’t help them because they cant/won’t learn so they doom themselves to a life that is never relaxed. they need to learn the value of true relaxation and peace. how can we teach them to learn there is a better way? xx
sorry needed to make anotger comment to tick boxed I keep forgetting
Hi 12345….we have so much in common emotionally relating to our mothers. For years i had pent up anger bc of her favortism and using me as a scapegoat. Angry for not being like other parents who were there for their children emotionally and made them feel worthwhile.
I felt jipped in life. Id see friends going out with their mothers, getting supportive advice and recieving a mothers love the way i envisioned it should be.
One thing ive learned from here and learning about narcissism is how my ideas about perfect families isnt always true. There are a lot of people out there like you and i who didnt get the parents they felt they shouldve. Many with terribly abusive parents physically as well. Its given me strength not bc im happy there are others in my situation but bc i see it as something that just happened the way it did and life doesnt owe you anything. In a word acceptance. Ive accepted i didnt get the mother i felt i deserved. Now its my job to develop those parts of myself that didnt develop properly as a result and one being my self worth. Self help books, therapy and a lot of self reflection. Who am i? What do i stand for? What “wont” i stand for?
If you dont know who you are how do you know where it is youre going?
Its easy to stay stuck in an emotion like anger and its a process you have to work thru. Its not wrong its just a part of the whole equation to healing.
PREDATOR! I had no idea. Completely destroyed my life. I dont like narcicissts and i don’t need them. I Now understand The Narcissist empath dynamic. As I did not know about this before. And I understand because of who I am that I attract them but you better believe I am highly sensitive to them now and much more educated now about them and will keep them out of my life at all costs. Never ever again will they get the front row seat of my life to destroy me.
God is helping me rebuild . Better than before as only He can.
My experience as well… first time struggling w addiction at age 58
All the above. Everyone is a potential target.
The attraction goes both ways, however.
Yes, the narcissist is attracted to the victim BUT the victim is also attracted to the narcissist – because of the aura of power, self-confidence, strength and charisma radiating from him.
And the uncanny feeling FAMILIARITY, that those of us who were raised by a narcissistic parent feel on a subconscious level.
There is always comfort in what is familiar..(unfortunately for ACONs).
Love your polls, HG. Make me really inspect things.
Jolly good.
When is it time to put on big girl/boy pants and quit blaming one’s parents for everything that goes wrong in their lives? Wha wha wha
Dear HG,
Can you please tell me why there are ‘reply’ buttons at the end of some messages and not others?
There have been many times that I would greatly like to reply to someone’s message sent to me and I can’t do so.
For the sake of better communication and threads that are easy to follow, can you please provide ‘reply’ buttons to all messages?
Or is there something I’m doing wrong? I do not have a WordPress account. Does this change anything?
Thanks in advance HG.
I have no idea, WN.
Hello WN,
Yes, when you have a WordPress account you receive ( if you want ) e-mail notifications of all the comments you are following on a thread. On the notifications by e-mail you have the possibility of replying directly to any comment on the thread something that you sometimes cannot do directly on the site.
Do you get any kind of e-mail notifications of the comments of the threads you are following even though you do not have a WordPress account?
I think this is why you can’t in your case. I hope this helps.
I am now unable to ‘like’ anyone’s comments. I can comment myself but to ‘like’ requires me to sign in a bunch of shit that might give away my personal details. WTF? So I am not ignoring anyone…I just can’t like anything.
Same
I think the reply function stops at level 3, so you get 1.comment, 2.reply, 3.reply to reply. My guess is, WP wanted to avoid endless replies.
What you need to do is scroll up from the comment you are replying to to the first available reply button. Then reference the comment you are replying to if needed.
To all the people who replied to my comment about posting replies and having a WordPress account, thank you for the information about replies and emails etc.
I don’t have a WordPress account, and like Bibi, I’d prefer not to have one. Even though I tick the box that says “notify me of new comments via email”, I never receive emails when new comments are made etc. I’m not sure why. Maybe it has something to do with privacy settings for cookies etc.
Regardless, please know that I truly appreciate all of your replies and comments whether I respond directly or not. I try to read everything and if there is any possibility at all, I will respond even though the threads get messy sometimes.
Thank you to all of you 🙂 It is very helpful and a genuine pleasure to read about all of your thoughts, perspectives and experiences.
WiserNow,
”I never receive emails when new comments are made etc. I’m not sure why.”
WordPress emails are most likely going into the Spam folder.
The replies all come through my junk mail – you might have the same . Look perhaps there
Hi EB,
Thanks for the suggestion. I have checked all my email folders including Spam, Junk and even Trash and there are absolutely no notification emails. So, I don’t know what’s going on.
I’ll have to continue to quickly scroll through my previous comments to see any replies etc. And I just hope people can forgive me if I appear to be ignoring them. I’m not being rude, it’s because I don’t get notifications.
Like Bibi, I can’t ‘like’ anyone’s comments either, which is a bit strange.
WiserNow,
“I have checked all my email folders including Spam, Junk and even Trash and there are absolutely no notification emails.”
Have you have looked for notification emails in the *online* Junk/Spam folder on the server?
If notification emails are being kept there, you will not be able to download them into your mail client on your PC/laptop until you move them into your Inbox folder on the server first.
“I just hope people can forgive me if I appear to be ignoring them. I’m not being rude, it’s because I don’t get notifications. ”
Please do not worry about it. This has happened to me too. Many of us have problems with WP notifications.
“Like Bibi, I can’t ‘like’ anyone’s comments either, which is a bit strange.”
You have to log into WP first in order to like comments with the new Like button.
It is possible to create a free account on WordPress ***without creating a web site or a blog**.
https://wordpress.com/start/account/user
Ahh… problem solved!!
Thank you very much EB. I now have a WordPress account without having to hand over my life story and personal details. I can now reply and like more easily! It’s all a bit new so we’ll see how it goes with notifications, but so far, it’s all making sense.
Thank you for your expertise and your help with this EB. It’s much appreciated 🙂
WiserNow,
You are welcome. Two more things:
Please do not delete the email you received from WP – Subject: ‘Activate WiserNow’. You might need in in the future.
Whitelist (create a new filter) in Gmail/Yahoo/… the following domains to prevent notification emails from going to the Spam folder:
@wordpress.com
@narcsite.com
Thank you EB,
I will look into that. Just talking about domains and servers etc, makes me a bit nervous because I don’t really know where to start, but I will try.
Thanks again for your help! 🙂
Hi WiserNow,
It is only about entering words (email addresses or domains) in a list to make sure WP emails reach your inbox. That’s all.
There are how-to articles on the internet. Google search:
How to whitelist an email or domain in [Gmail/Yahoo/Outlook/Hotmail…]
or
How to create filters in [Gmail/…]
If you have any questions, please let me know.
– A person who cannot find what they need in normal healthy people
-An addict who needs a fix
-A person and for whatever reason needs the way a narcissist behavior, but did not go looking for it
This was a tough call, because I have friends who are involved with narcissists, that fit other choices, such as being naïve to red flags, having the traits a narc looks for, etc
But I decided to just describe myself .
I put down the answers that I feel apply to ME.
I am a fairly self-aware person, and I don’t judge myself harshly at all. I like narc’s bc they are emotionally unavailable & so am I. I don’t desire don’t desire “normal , healthy” . I dont know why, I just don’t.
I prefer passionate sex, a battle of wits, and I have some fucked up deep seated addiction to rejection going on, obv
Ah well, such is life. Ive come to accept myself. Things might change, I’m always growing.
These categories, while sufficient, suggest that the narcissist is all knowing and all powerful. I mean I was once robbed in Times Square by two eight year olds who had the “I’ll look lost in the big city and distract her while you pick her pocket, scheme going on. While I get the no contact rule for a narcissist, if we just paid more attention to red flags, stuff wouldn’t get that far. Even a narcissist can be sniffed out if you stop listening to the I love you speech which comes way to soon for any normal person to believe. No, I am not saying one can be absolutely safe, or prepared but can a narcissist be absolutely sure he has invested in someone who will not quickly turn into a dirty empath?
Hmmmm. I wonder why my comment is still awaiting approval? Could it be that a narcissistic game is being played with me?
No. See Rule 13.
You need to keep in mind that emotional thinking overrides the appearance of red flags.
There may be a risk that the target cheats on the narcissist (see the article Cheating On The Narcissist). The Dirty Empath usually becomes one owing to the appearance of a narcissist and would not ordinarily cheat. Of course, if a narcissist has ensnared an empath (who was single) and enters into a relationship, the appearance of a second narcissist could result in that empath cheating on the first narcissist.
So true. A narcissist could make a nun drop her knickers! It takes a narcissist to bring out the Dirty in the empath.
It’s on the to do list.
You will be successful HG.
I did that in the past cheating on them and it was so satisfying – the only issue is that I was cheating with another narc who was ensnaring me etc funny how my categories of Narcs went up everytime – from lesser to greater in 10 years. Although I can’t still figure out the first official one – I spend almost 20 years with – suspect he was
A mid but he has some greater attribute and some cultural traits that mess up with the diagnosis.
I chose the damaged and the healthy person, as well as, the person with the traits that draw a narcissist to them. Anyone can be targeted by a narcissist (including other narcs), but some are more susceptible than others.
Hi k….so true other narcs can be targets. Ive seen situations where somatic women ended up victims of their male narc counterparts. Usually midrangers. They play the victim well afterwards meanwhile before their narc partner theyd left a string of victims themselves. I guess karma plays out in this case.
narc affair
There is so much narc on narc action that it is like a cluster B porn fest. I just shut up, listen and observe. The fieldwork is great! They gas light each other, manipulate, lie, hoover, seduce and use STs, the narc twin lines of defense, pity plays and withdrawal. I can barely keep up with them. It is awesome because I understand everything they are doing and why.
K & Narc Affair – 👍
Once the blindfold is removed it IS awesome & fascinating, isn’t it?
There’s something magical about being able to see/recognize what was invisible before. I never imagined this other reality even existed 😮
It’s a paradigm shift.
Finding this site & HG Tudor’s work has taken me YEARS beyond any understanding I was able to acquire in counseling. It wouldn’t be an understatement to say my lifetime.
I’m actually beginning to feel safe and able to trust myself – what a concept?!
Thank you, HG.
Elle … there’s is something about the word safe that resonate with me . My Narc has never been violent to me but in my dreams – nightmare he scares the shit out of me and force me into things – or send his guys to get me.
It is very scary – very violent and I wake up all messsed up.
Maybe I can feel that fury , I don’t know , I saw his furies eyes , piercing , only once and it had nothing to do with me nor directed at me but I told him – you are totally transfigured – I never saw you like this.
He said it does happen from time to time but he said not with you…
Elle
It is amazing and bizarre to say the least, like an episode of The Twilight Zone. This past year has been a phenomenal learning experience and I am so grateful that I found narcsite. Honestly, I don’t think I would have recovered without it. Like you, I trust myself and feel safer, too, and that is a wonderful feeling.
I agree, before narcsite, I didn’t understand what was happening. Once I grasped it, the narc worldview, I was able to grasp that I was an empath, and all the pieces fell together. I feel very much able to connect back w cool hard logic when my ET kicks in.
K:
The Twilight Zone! I fucking love Rod Serling. Sorry to go off topic, but the season 1 intro is the best by far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhKiqo-nqm0
What a fantastic show, no?
That is my favorite intro, too! And being involved with a narcissist is like being in an episode of The Twilight Zone or American Horror Story. You are stuck in the middle ground between light and shadow. It is a total mindfuck!
Bibi
My fave show as a kid. I could not relate to most shows, but that one was an escape, and told me I was not alone in my imagination of other possibilities.
Check out :
The living doll
The masks (how appropriate for this subject)
Cant remember the name, but the one about the kid who turned people he didnt like into jack in the boxes
Almost any one that has Burgess Meredith in it.
I always prided myself in being able to stop whatever I was doing that was “bad” for me. Drink, Drugs, food.
I am very addicted to my narc and am not ready to let go.
When you are ready, HG has excellent books for it.
And GOSO must be thorough . Imjus found out the hard way that even just seeing each other passing by in cars, one must ignore. I looked, he smiled, I broke out in a huge smile, he motioned to text him and called out that we should forward our dogs,
I was for the first time in MONTHS feeling low (a malign Hoover from my narcoholic the day before had my Hoover bar lowered) and his radiant smile HAD me . Instantly. I even knew in that moment all bets were off at least for the day. I texted him, we dog walked, made out, …after months of strict NC my damn pussy was in charge, all bcuz of a malign Hoover the day before from my narcoholic, which ITSELF could have been avoided if I’d rejected a dinner invite from a friend who lives on his property.
Thought I could handle it, if he showed up. I DID handle it, but his toxicity left me juuuuust vulnerable enough for my UMR to benign Hoover me, after months of NC with HIM!!
These fucking guys!
When u really decide to move on. when you’re really ready, be absolutely vigilant, FOREVER. Absolutely NC.
it’s very weird how both mine worked seemingly in tandem.
So, Kim, with all due respect, why are you on this site if you aren’t willing to let go? . . . maybe something magical will happen and u and the narc will live happily ever after? What are u looking for on this site?
I figured the majority of bloggers are looking for solutions to get better. Am I wrong?
HG, I went to a party last night. I recognized what I believe to be a narc. She said the same thing my ex said when he first met me ‘u have gorgeous eyes’ but she added ‘when I look into ur eyes, I see an angel.’ #1 I’m not attracted to women but am 100% for whatever floats one’s boat . . . She wanted to exchange numbers, I said I’m just in city to visit my brother, no spare time.
What is the best response when one suspects they are being hit on by a narc? I could be wrong and don’t want to be rude . . . beautiful girl . . . what advice do u have or which book should I purchase? Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Walk away so your emotional thinking does not try and keep you invested. You can just make an excuse and say you need the bathroom/your lift has arrived/need a drink/ ooh those canapés look good/ i have to return some video tapes.
I know the point you were trying to make with the reader, HG, but the ‘return video tapes’ option was amusing.
Do they still loan those out where you are – or have you just been super tardy about returning yours?
I was referencing a line from a particular film, WhoCares.
Melinda,
I do not consider myself a blogger just someone that got ensnared and came to where I thought I was safe to express myself openly without being badgered even with “all due respect”.
I also did not know that I had to explain what I was looking for on this site. Was just looking for some kind words…….that I was not alone.
Sorry if my unwillingness to let go has offended you. And if my happily ever after involves my narc……that really is none of your business
Melinda,
You’re picking at someone for being on this site who is admitting they’re not yet ready to let go of a narcissist (healthy honesty/obviously here for learning + support) — but you can’t figure out what to do when you are being hit on by someone of the same sex who you suspect is a narcissist??
What to do, what to do, what to do?? Oh, let me think — real hard. Yeah, I’m thinking you should make a polite “Sorry, I don’t lean that way” reply and walk away. That was a tough one, whew.
And you wouldn’t want to be “rude,” eh? Gosh no, not that… you surely take great care with your words… oh, except the innocent people who have done nothing to deserve your snarky/thoughtless comments on this site.
If you’re going to be condescending/judgmental toward others, you may not want to leave yourself (and behaviors) wide open for anyone to drive a truck through. You’re pretty pointy with that finger of yours.
Be decent… or don’t. But there’s a whole lot of decent, bright, compassionate people on this site who will notice your bullying attitude — so your lack of awareness and/or willful decency deficiency may be challenged… which would be a kindness to you.
Maybe that’s why YOU are here.
Ooh … (thanks for the clarification )..and here I seriously thought you were a fan of analog technology.
I’m kinda disappointed now.
Kim,
It depends on where you are in stages of recovery. You sound new to this so that would be normal not wanting to let go, truthfully pronbably none of us want to because we think the golden period will return.
With that said if you don’t let go, he’s going to let go for you. It’s a matter of time and amount of abuse you can tolerate, but ITS GOING TO HAPPEN. It can happen on your terms or his. You do have control over that,
Questions to ask yourself :
Why am staying?
What pay off am I getting?(cause you are getting one or you’d be gone)
What void is he filling?
Seize your power while you can cause when he is done with you and he will be soon enough you will feel as though you have none.
Caroline
Excellent response to Melinda’s contemptuously smug and imbecilic remarks. This sentence speaks volumes:
I could be wrong and don’t want to be rude . . . beautiful girl . .
XO, K~lol…”Pretty is as pretty does”… 😉
Not everyone is looking for tools to get over the narc. There’s quite a few patiently waiting to engaged with the narc. Some are here to weaponized themselves against the narcs. Varying stages in recovery from narc abuse.
Oh f ing brother. Yes who cares REALLY. How many times does HG have to say detach from me emotionally asap or we will continue to do more damage I’m sorry but I think that’s pretty clear.
Narc 1 I was with 5 years and there were physical altercations that comtinually got worse and I mean worse but I won’t get into that here. No one is suggesting anyone be homeless that ridiculous and any therapist or shrink would assist in helping someone in a dire situation but that was never brought up that I saw.
I’m sorry who cares who really gets mad at me? I don’t. What I’m saying is true. The longer you stay attached the more damage is being done. That is a fact. As it is? from the time you start it usually takes multiple tries.
She may not be “ready” to go but I’m certainly not going to be the one who says it’s ok. The advice should be start detaching now. Common sense says secure a safe place first if that’s your situation, but get out as soon as you can safely. No one has ever suggested someone go homeless or put themselves in harms way, This is about emotional detachment and that can be started at anytime.
iF someone wears a label of Codepebdent because of someone read someone’s comment on the internet that’s not really my problem. No one can make anyone wear a label. If they are its because they choose to
Perhaps if that term bothers you so much it’s striking a nerve just sayin
Lori
That might be true, the codependent label. Many here want to believe they are Super Empaths when in fact they are codependents or standard empaths. Nothing wrong with either of these schools. Yet due to personal beliefs of what they desire, it does rub against the grain of a person because being brutally truthful and being honest with oneself are to very different issues. There will be a reaction. Usually anger. Easier to be anger at another then to reflect and be truthful with oneself and see the truth in the moment.
I believe the word Super has a lot to do with it, the others sound like second. Words hold more power then many people give.
Hi Twilight
I do like HGs system of naming the schools and cadres of narcs and empaths, but only for the purposes of determining the different behaviours and responses to situations. I agree with you that some are interpreting the Super as being preferred, or the next step to having their own comic book and identifying with that. Just because you got mad and fought him at some point does not make you a Super empath just as Loris assertion that not all co -ds are weak. It helps if you read what HG has set out in each category and are brutally honest with yourself in identifying where you fall so that you can use the information and scenarios he provides to best help your situation and in moving forward. Same with everyone and their sister being with a greater despite the fact that he says they are rare. There will be those who have encountered them sure, but if you have never been involved with a narcissist and have few to no narcissistic traits yourself, Mr Rogers could appear to you to be a greater. Lets not give them more credit than they deserve just because ones ego says they have to be a greater because they ensnared me.
Twilight
On boy you get this. Years ago I was one of those people who was angry about the label. People really don’t understand codependency.
When it was I initially mentioned to me in a support forum I was pissed fast forward to therapy it was true. Codependents are not little meek weaklings not at all. They may use the martyr facade as a means of control.
I think you are exactky right there are likely many Codependents here that are not yet self aware but hard to say from the Internet. I tell you someone got it dead right with me. Codependents can often be in a positions of power in their lives. Many tend to be that person that knows and fixes everything at their jobs so that everyone seeks them out which translates into power and control.
You are right many will prefer to embrace Super Empath cause well that sounds way cooler doesn’t it!
Oh how the Narc forces self examination. They reflect back to you something that needs addressing.
A lot of this depends on the stage of recovery and what kind of recovery techniques the victim has engaged in.
Is everyone Codependent of course not but I’m sure a certain number especially when one is talking about re ensnarement
Lori
Did you say previously that you were diagnosed BPD and then subsequently Co-D? If so – why did you accept the latter? Different doctor? More in-depth analysis than previous? Just curious how it came about that you accepted Co-D in the end.
kim
Hold on tight until you are ready to let go. You are not alone and this is the best place to be if you are still with your narcissist. There are many kind people on this site who understand what you are going through and Sweet Caroline and I are just two of them. You are safe with us.
While I think your intentions are good I don’t think it wise to tell someone hold on tight till you are ready to let go. No therapist would tell you that. They will ALL tell you that you are involved with a toxic person and get out NOW and begin working on skills to help you do that as quickly as possible
These people are very very toxic and the longer you stay the more damage is being done. The longer you stay the longer it takes to leave. It’s a vicious cycle.
I would suggest you engage whatever resources you need to get out: Even if you start right now prepare for a couple failures
Do not hold on tight
Is this “Nit-Pick Day”?
K’s “Hold on tight” is followed by: “YOU ARE NOT ALONE, AND THIS IS THE BEST PLACE TO BE IF YOU ARE STILL WITH YOUR NARCISSIST.”
Meaning: hold on tight to the good info/support on this site.
K very well knows the best place to be is AWAY from a narcissist. She’s meeting someone where they currently *are.*
Thank you, Caroline
Ha ha ha…we are all NITS (non-intimate tertiary sources) here and the pickin’s are good!
You are correct, I am meeting kim exactly where she is and she needs to hold on tight until she reads and thoroughly understands her situation so she can move forward.
She shouldn’t be bullied, badgered or shamed into leaving her narcissist because that isn’t very helpful right now. She needs kindness and understanding.
K
I agree with you 100%. The best way we can help one another is thru being supportive of one another as we each struggle to figure out our own path. Even therapists don’t tell you what to do, they guide you into finding your own truth and discovering what you need to do.
I think that’s maybe because until we really understand something deep down ourselves, we won’t really commit to it. I might do something because I was told it’s what I ought to do, but I’m much more likely to follow through with it if I understand why it’s important (In fact in all honesty, I’m more likely NOT to do it if I was just told to, because I’m stubborn and have lived all my life with bossy narcs! 😄)
And you’re right about therapists. I’ve only met one that identifies narcissists and that’s because she married one herself! I know another therapist who is a midrange narc. She puts her own husband through absolute hell and doesn’t have a clue about her own reality. I’ve always pitied her clients.
Thank you, windstorm
Exactly! We were both raised by narcs so we are defiant to a fault, although, I have mellowed with age.
If I had a magic wand, I would wave it over kim and make her addiction go away, but that ain’t happening. She found her way here and we can welcome and support her through the rocky road to recovery. That is how I got better. And withdrawal from “narc heroin”, a.k.a. the golden period, isn’t easy.
Even you see what is out there regarding therapists. It appears that many people have had bad experiences and spend years trying to get help to no avail.
K
The “even you see” part cracked me up!! Sitting here laughing at school and hope I’m not distracting anyone!
Yes, we’ve both had so many years of authority figures telling us bullshit and expecting us to accept it as gospel to blindly accept anything that we’re told!
I have missed you, dear and so many others here! (And HGs wit and wisdom as well!)
windstorm
Laughter is great! Enjoy it while it lasts. The ability to “see” is amazing and probably has roots in our acquired defiance. After years of bullshit we can finally refuse to accept it. Lately, the first words out of my mouth (IRL) are usually, “No, that’s wrong.”
I really missed you, too, and I am thrilled that you are back! I agree; the wit and wisdom is fabulous here.
P.S.
What subject are you studying? Please answer, only if you are comfortable sharing it.
K
My standard response whenever someone tells me to do or not to do something is “Why?” If they cant convince me how doing whatever it is applies specifically to my situation and is better than what I would have done, I usually just ignore them. Not only are people often wrong, but what works for them may not be best in my situation.
I had developed this strategy by age 6 of living with my narc parents. God alone knows how many times my mother told me hysterically, “Don’t ever do that! It will kill you!” When usually I had already done whatever she was forbidding and was obviously still not only alive, but usually unharmed.
I literally never just do what I’m told. If I’m ever in a life or death situation where immediately doing what I’m told is essential, I’ll go out standing stock still looking back at the speaker, waiting for their reason. Lol!
Not sure about your question about what I’m studying? Was it because I was at school? I’m a retired teacher and go back to my old school to volunteer as a teachers aide. I always wanted to do some kind of charity work after I retired and chose this because I enjoy middle schoolers and know how to do everything teacher’s need. It is a very poor, rural school that can’t afford to hire enough teachers, much less aides.
Or maybe you’re psychic and know I like to have a subject I study in depth? Currently I’m coasting along between subjects. My last focus was Japanese language and culture and I’m not ready to choose a new one yet. Maybe after school let’s out the end of May…
windstorm
It is strange when people try to give you unsolicited advice. Most of the time I listen politely and ignore it. Lately, people have been telling me I must be hot?!? I live in New England and still wear a coat. Spring weather can turn into cold weather in a matter of minutes, and then everyone starts shivering and complaining about how cold it is, except me.
Some of my (teacher) friends take classes and I was curious if you were too. Right now my area of study is psychology and cluster Bs. I live in the poor area of my town but our school gets good funding and there are enough teachers and aides to go around. Thank God.
I thought you mentioned going on a trip with your son, did you go to Japan?
K
Kentucky requires all teachers to get a masters degree or equivalent. My ed degree was already my 2nd bachelors and then having to go BACK to school at night while I was working (with 3 small kids and a narc husband) to take all those additional classes totally burnt me out on taking anything else! Now I pick my topics and do my studying on my own.
Yes my son was in Japan for a year for his work. He let me come stay with him in his apartment for a month. It was an adventure and let me immerse myself in a different culture, which I really enjoy whenever I travel. Hopefully I didn’t get on his nerves too much. I only have one place left to go on my “bucket list” -Alaska. I hope he’s willing to go with me in the next year or two while I’m still (hopefully) able to make it!
windstorm
Yup, my girlfriend got burnt out too. She looked miserable for the longest time. Japan sounds cool and I bet the sushi is great! I read to my daughter using Kamishibai (Japanese street theater) and she really enjoys it.
My oldest daughter went to Alaska and she loved it. You come form the Hatfield–McCoy territory; I think you’ll make it. And I am sure your son didn’t mind your company at all; you are not a narc, so it is all good.
K
Sushi is awesome 😎
Twilight
Seafood is everywhere, totally fresh and awesome in Japan! You all that live near an ocean may be used to that, but for someone who’s lived her whole life hundreds of miles inland – it was mind blowing!
Twilight
Sushi and Sake. You can’t go wrong with that!
K
You know it!
Lori
I agree; it is a vicious and toxic cycle and, ideally, it is best to leave once you know but kim isn’t ready to let go, however, she is here and she can read and learn everything she needs to know so she can make that decision when she is good and ready. She needs to hold on so she can let go.
I tried to stay out of it yesterday…the sun was shining here…it was finally so beautiful and warm in my part of the world…I even tiptoed around some of the controversy and snark (as someone put it) with an attempt at levity…that didn’t go over well…
But I can’t help it when things *just* jump out at me…
So Lori**, I just couldn’t help noticing a bit of a contradiction:
” I don’t think it wise to tell someone hold on tight till you are ready to let go. No therapist would tell you that. They will ALL tell you that you are involved with a toxic person and get out NOW”
Really?
And this:
“Do not hold on tight”
Sooo, what if getting out “NOW” meant choosing ‘ homelessness’?
(Just asking…)
Also, “no therapist” would tell you to hold on tight; that you’re with a toxic person and you should get out now?
Hmm, funny how many people say that therapy didn’t do crap for them and finally they understand the nature of what they are dealing with once coming here and reading HG’s work…
Finally, I don’t believe that when K said “hold on tight” to kim that she meant hold on tight, literally, to the narcissist or her situation. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong, K) she meant roughly this: it’s gonna be a ride…we are here for you.
People are here because they know there is SOMETHING askew.
But sometimes it is more about *recognizing* where a person’s at in their journey and *meeting* them there. (Which K excels at, I might add.)
Sometimes that is all people need.
They found their way here.
And in their own way and time they will move onwards and upwards.
They don’t necessarily need a *big flashy sign* directing them to somewhere that someone else feels they should be. Nor do they need labels like “codependent” or “not normal” slapped on their foreheads to show them the light.
**please don’t take this as a personal attack, as I do read most of your comments and get something from them. Clearly, you’ve done a lot of work and understand yourself and how you operate quite well. Kudos to you.
But, personally for myself, I would hope that where there are strong contradictions in my reasoning and advice to people that someone would call me out on it as well. Because I’m here to learn.
Thank you, WhoCares
It is very important to recognize where someone is on their journey so we can reach out and help in the best possible way. kim knows something is askew and she has found her way here and she needs to hold on tight because she is in for the ride of a lifetime on the Narcissistic Roller Coaster from Hell. She will move forward when she is ready and on her terms, not ours. Our job is to be here for her.
I know 5 people who went to therapy for relationship issues and were not told they were dealing with a narcissist nor were they told to leave their abusers. What an utter waste of time and money.
WhoCares
P.S.
If this was your attempt at levity, I read it and thought it was funny. So it went over well with me.
Do they still loan those out where you are – or have you just been super tardy about returning yours?
Hi Lori,
“While I think your intentions are good I don’t think it wise to tell someone hold on tight till you are ready to let go. ”
I am afraid you misunderstood K’s comment. She did not mean that Kim should stick to her narcissist and put up with his abuse at all.
Hello E.B.!
You understood. It’s that unspoken empath language we all share and you are correct; I do not want her to stay and put up with abuse. She needs to hold on tight and stay here so she can get the necessary support and understanding that she will need to move forward. When she is ready, she will let go.
Hello K,
Yes, I knew what you meant and that you would never ask anyone to put up with narcissistic abuse. I have been misunderstood before and I guess I have misunderstood others too. It is easy to give words the wrong meaning.
I appreciate your insights and observations and I also love your sense of humour 🙂
Thank you, E.B.
There have been times when I have misunderstood comments, too, and that is understandable on a blog. It would be nice if we could meet for a cup of coffee/tea and talk. As always, I enjoy reading about your thoughts, experiences and humor, too. When I first joined narcsite, I didn’t realize the impact that you and the others would have on me. Our comments are a very important part of the blog and really do make a difference.
Hi K,
I can relate to what you said. You and other people on this blog have a positive impact in my life too. I would love to have a cup of coffee with you, K and I mean it. Yours and other empaths’ hilarious comments like NarcAngel’s brighten up my day 🙂 and also not to forget HG’s great sense of humour. There is a lot of fun on this ‘E V I L’ blog. Hahaha
Thanks, E.B.
Ha ha ha…there is a lot of fun on the E V I L blog! NarcAngel and HG’s clever repartee is excellent and helps facilitate recovery IMO. I would love to have a cup of coffee with you, too. It would be cool if we could all get together for “group therapy” and laugh our asses off.
K
Haha. To borrow a phrase from Penny on Big Bang…………I’m just a blonde monkey to you people aren’t I?………
Village Idiot?
Dancing Bear?
Matters not to me. If you can laugh, you are already healing, if not, keep reading until you can.
NarcAngel
Big Bang is a riot.
Season 7
Sheldon: Sheldon Cooper does not cry.
Howard: That’s true, you’d rust.
And no one should be taking mental health advice from the internet. It you are in what you know to be as a bad situation and you’ve tried to detach call a professional.
This site is merely a point of reference and full of opinion some with more experience than others which means no one persons opinion is any more valid than another’s . There is no way to know what someone’s complete situation is from this page
I deal in facts.
I agree with you HG. You have said repeatedly get out and stay out. When you know you go. Those phrases aren’t followed with when you are ready.
The fact is many people here will start and fail multiple times. It is what it is but you have to try because it will just get worse.
I’m not suggesting anyone take my advice. I am not a mental health professional but I know when a narc says “when you know you go” what that means
But all of the commentary by all ofvus is speculation and opinion
You are correct. I understand people want to have a place to live, sort out money etc, but ultimately if you are determined to get away from a narcissist who is of course abusing you, you will do so without any further delay or prevarication. That is why it is Get Out Stay Out – not Get Out (When You Finally Decide To)
Thanks HG that was point is all. Narcs are dangerous creatures. You think you know “your ” Narc but you don’t. They are capable of heinous things all of them depending upon the level of wounding and what nerve it struck in them.
I swear to God I saw Narc 1 turn into someone I didn’t know when I pushed him with a level of rage I had never witnessed before and I lived with him. You simply don’t know what wounding may cause what.
I realize it’s very hard for folks to leave I am one of them? but you have to decide you are going to emotionally start detaching and taking real steps to get out of it cause the damage is going to get worse until you reach a point where you become a zombie a mere shell of your former self. Some people are able to get on on their own after a few tries others need help from a professional depending on many factors type and length of abuse level of enmeshment or emotional infection
K
Perhaps I misunderstood your comment or took it out of context either way I’m sure your intent is good and you didn’t seem offended by my comments which is great because I meant none.
It seems however some are and that’s fine everyone is entitled to an opinion, HG has given us some facts about Narcs. Hard and fast facts that really are neither gray Narcs don’t do gray nor debateable.
When you know you go. Now that said, there maybe some that don’t “know” they may suspect Narcissism but they will know soon enough
Lori
I was not offended by your comment at all and I completely understand your POV. Once you know, you go. However, I don’t think kim is ready and, if she stays, reads and gets support, she will understand what she is dealing with and will acquire the necessary tools to move forward.
I don’t think others are offended by your comments; they understood my POV and were trying to help clarify what I meant. I do follow and “like” you; you have made many good points here and I appreciate that.
Hello Lori
I believe cognitive dissonance plays a part with the holding on. Until one is sure and can see their situation clearly, self doubt and indecisiveness can affect a decision. Then add other outside factors like money, housing, support network etc.
Once you know you go, yes and each one of us is on our own path of discovering the truth.
Twilight
I think you hit on the crux of the problem in your last paragraph. Yes once we KNOW, we will go, but the problem is we have to know deep down and believe it ourselves. Until then it doesn’t matter how often or how many people tell us. Everyone’s situation is a little different and it takes different amounts of time for each of us to apply all that we learn here to ourselves and truly know.
Twilight
I agree. There is CD, addiction and heartbreak. There is a great deal of emotional thinking going on and she needs a safe place to learn exactly what she is dealing with and how to replace her ET with LT. Some people need a time while others may not.
I get that it that takes some people multiple tries to leave their narcissist even when they know full well that they are with a narcissist – I’m trying to understand that experience better – because it was not my experience. And if that is your path then that is your path – it was not my path.
And believe me when I say that I know about emotional detachment and HG’s encouragement of it.
I did this instinctively, on my own, before ever finding my way here.
Before finding HG’s work here I escaped my situation, on my own, without anyone’s real help. I found support afterwards. I found HG’s blog after my experience while I was looking for answers. I now seek understanding in looking back at what occurred and in dealing with the fallout. My situation wasn’t pretty but it could have been significantly worse.
You’re right Lori when you suggest caution about taking advice from the internet – you should take a grain of salt with anyone’s advice – even the professionals with letters after their name.
In my experience, at every level of assistance – from moral support and social services up to legal advice there are ‘professionals’ who have no clue what a narcissist truely is. Sorry to burst your bubble but sometimes those people don’t give the best advice.
I only hope for most people when they decide their next move in their specific situation that all their ducks are perfectly lined up in a row – but for most it is not a graceful exit.
——————————-
K – thanks for reading my poor attempt at levity! I got shot down, a bit, because I didn’t catch HG’s reference to a movie and came back with the comment about him *maybe* not being fan of analog technology but it got lost in all the crap…I meant to follow up with him by asking if he preferred an analog microphone to a digital one for his YouTube recordings but I didn’t bother….
But anyway, here’s another attempt at levity…when I was in the midst of all my own crap I saw a post on FB (of all places , sadly) that I could sooo identify with:
“Ducks? Row? I have squirrels and they are at a rave.”
Well, personally I had flying squirrels.
Ducks, squirrels…narcs…yeah. Get the fuck out when you can, how you can.
WhoCares
I love that saying! Fits me too! I’ve never been comfortable with rows anyway.
You are welcome, WhoCares
Part 2 of your levity re: analog technology, wasn’t lost on me; I laughed at that, too. I don’t think you were shot down. HG occasionally references the line about “returning video tapes” that Patrick Bateman used to get out of situations in American Psycho.
Narcsite is the only place where I have found support and accurate information about NPD. The police, the courts, primary care doctors, schools, therapists, churches and domestic abuse shelters have ALL failed victims of NPD.
Every situation is different and I try to keep that in mind when I read the comments.
i dont understand needing to be ready to let go so I cant comment on that, but I will say that if you have children, I do not believe you have the luxury of much time to ready yourself, as other victims are being affected, subject to your decisions and dependent on your actions.
NarcAngel
You must of gotten a second-rate batch of “Narc Heroin” during your GP. Addiction can be hard to break. I don’t know if kim has children but it took me about a year and a half to get all my finances together and learn to become a non-fueling appliance. My goal was to have him move out so I could have the house and it worked. If I found narcsite earlier, the whole process would have been much quicker.
K
I knew what you meant about hanging on in your initial post, but I was speaking as the child and not the partner. I dont know what kind of heroin my mother got (more like rat poison). We waited and waited for my mother to be ready. I even told her we would be better off at a shelter. She never did get ready and it cost her her 4 children now not involved in her life, and any shot at the 4 of us ever having a normal life in the aftermath of all the damage. That is why I have an issue when I read about anyone who has children waiting to be “ready”. Its the epitome of selfishness to me. If you have kids and you say you love them, put your money where your mouth is and just fucking do it already.
Not you personally K. You know that.
NarcAngel
You are absolutely right. When children are involved, their needs and safety are paramount and trump the parent’s need to stay in an abusive relationship. No child should be abused, ever. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Your mother’s behavior was selfish and reprehensible and you and your siblings paid dearly for it. There is no atonement for that profound loss.
Part of my MMRN’s facade was being the fun/good dad so his abuse was directed at me and hidden until the last 2 years, however, he knew NOT to fuck with the kids (including his IPSS) because there would be hell to pay.
All your comments are welcome, I do not want to live in an echo chamber.
An add to my previous comment:
To those who say: oh he did not abuse the children – only me, I would answer that the greatest abuse to us was not to ourselves (although there was much of that), it was watching the abuse and degradation of our mother and realizing that if the adult we depended on was unable to stop it, that there was no hope for us, and also no where to turn. I understand a limited amount of time to prepare an escape plan, arrange shelter, etc. I am referring to those who think the children are too young to understand, will forget, or my favorite – waiting until the kids are gone (like theyre doing them some big favour).
NarcAngel
Watching a parent (or sibling) being abused is child abuse. I grew up watching my father beat the fuck out of my mother and my siblings, and then my mother beat up my siblings and me and there was physical violence with other family members and outsiders. And that was just the physical abuse. There was MASSIVE neglect, sexual and narc abuse, as well.
My youngest daughter was subjected to the most abuse during the spring and summer of rage (2014) she saw us fight and she still remembers it very clearly. That is child abuse and I knew it at the time. Her sister was living at university and her brother was in high school but my MMRN’s IPSS witnessed some of our fights because he lived next door. But he was 22 at the time. By august, the fuel was gone and it became the hatred and there were no more fights.
My MMRN was very, very good. Most of the time, he abused me when no one was around. Everybody thought he was such a great guy. However, the end was a shit show!
NarcAngel
You might not have seen my comment about my guy friend who’s married to a histrionic midranger and they have a little girl. He’s afraid to leave the narc because he knows she’ll get custody and cut off his access to the girl. Also he will no longer be there to provide support and some normalcy in her life. I understand his fears because his first wife was also a narc and she has cut off his access to their daughter.
While I see his viewpoint, I also agree with you that seeing her mother constantly emasculate her father is harmful too. It seems like a no win situation for him and the girl. We tend to think of the abusive narcs as being men and the victims can take the children with them when they leave, but life is not always black and white. Just wondering your opinion on this scenario.
Hi Windstorm
So the father has no visitation or shared custody in the second case and that is what is anticipated in this case also? I assumed they would be allowed at least SOME access to the child, in which case I can only say that I would rather not have had to watch the abuse daily and would look forward to any period of time I could be away from the narcissist and be at the other parents home. If this man is really concerned for the child and not just using this as an excuse not to leave the mother, then the assumption is he will make himself available to the child as much as possible. If he stays with the mother he will be attending to her most of the time and in addition to the child continuing to witness the abuse of her father, he is not really mentally available for the child and she gets lost in the struggle anyway. In short- my feeling is that two homes at least offers an escape from the abuse however temporary and that time can be used to offer some normalcy and positive reinforcement to her life. Even though understandably the child will be upset at the break-up of the parents, she is no less torn apart living in the dysfunction and that is where parents often make the mistake that staying is better for the child.
NarcAngel
Yeah, there really is no good answer. He’s supposed to have regular visitation with the older girl, but the mother almost always sabotages it, plus she poisons the girl against him. This wife would be just as bad. You know how narcs are. She’d say whatever would best accomplish her objective. And her objective would be to hurt him.
Hard to know what would help the girl most in the long run. If he could leave and set up a good, normal home with a non-narc wife it would be one thing. But I don’t think that would happen.
Windstorm
He could set up a good normal home without a partner and still offer her a caring parent and refuge. Two is not always best or required. He should think more along those lines if his daughter is really the focus.
NarcAngel
Yeah. He has a big list of his own problems that way though – beginning with fear and lack of confidence. Hes very easy to manipulate and she knows how to push all his buttons. He can be his own worst enemy in a court setting.
His behavior has always been difficult for me to understand, despite how similar we are in many ways. He grew up in a screwed up family with two narc parents who actually both abandoned him and he had to live with friends. His extended family is a bunch of hateful backbiters like my own. I’m used to dealing with men who are narcs and supremely confident. He’s an odd mix of male confidence/stubbornness on the outside and broken hopelessness inside. He won’t really listen to any advice from me (since he knows how screwed up I am 😝). I guess all I can do is listen and let him vent.
Actually Lori, I had a follow-up comment (in moderation atm for when and if HG gets to posting it) but I am sorry because it is still a little hot-headed.
I am sorry to butt heads with you again because I think I can see that you genuinely want for people to learn from their experiences with their narcissists and use your own experience in aid of that – even though you may come at it a slightly different angle than me.
I am so frustrated to see misconception in some areas mostly because of my own situation and experience. It infuriates (wait, fury is for narcs right?…correction; it really, really makes me mad) when I’m constantly coming up against a system, in my own experience & post HG, that doesn’t recognize psychological and emotional abuse and that the tools are words and emotional manipulation that fly under most people’s radar and don’t leave outwardly visible wounds. And because of that lack of knowledge and recognition I’m forced to dialogue with my narc – even though I want to go full 100% no contact or at the very least I seek protection from having to dialogue directly with him. Almost every day I want to lash out him, but I can’t. And I’m afraid to lash out in turn to those around me. So I apologize for lashing out at you, Lori, because I think I was taking advantage of the fact that HG allows heated dialogue here.
Although I do want to seek understanding; I see that you do too.
Never in my life would I ever think I would be addicted to anything but chocolate
… a narcassist proves this wrong … it’s crazy how you need his fix and what it does once you get that hit. . He is truly a drug along with the use of his tools …. great article HG
Yes, addictive because you are never filled or satisfied by them…except deceptively early on….An absolute trap
Indeed, addiction is seeking the substitute at the cost of the real need, a self-perpetuating cycle as the neglected needs get stronger driving the craving for the substitute.