The Narcissistic Icicles – No. 6


36 thoughts on “The Narcissistic Icicles – No. 6

  1. DebbieWolf says:

    Caroline….Thank you for your kind comment x😊(replying here as no reply buttons showing at my end) also about the inner critic…I’m glad to hear that the mirror tip thing on positive word reinforcement works for you and it is something you already had under your belt…proves it works and helps… it was my mother who told me about that years ago when I was a young girl. To help me through confidence issues following relentless bullying at school.

    My parents were my best friends to be fair and I was very fortunate to have them. They died young. I miss them very much. It is unbelievable to me how much they taught me is still relevant and resonates in life you can imagine my little collage includes some sweet photos of the two of them.💝

    Thank you too for sharing. ⚘⚘

  2. Caroline says:

    Love those words to MB.
    I concur. I even write in whiteboard marker on the bathroom mirror.

    1. DebbieWolf says:

      Hey Caroline

      Good idea about the bathroom mirror… I myself have a couple of positive reinforcements near my kettle for when I make a coffee and also near my cooker/stove with some little photos. Arranged in little shabby chic collages.
      Always help when I get all hung up as invariably happens at times..then they are nearby as I cook or make a cuppa.😊

      1. Caroline says:

        Sounds good!
        Thank you for sharing that with me.
        Whatever works and wins the Battle is good in my book.
        I found it powerful to write a single word on the bathroom mirror, such as ‘loved’ or ‘valuable’, like it’s my own meme.
        After some time of associating those positive truths with myself, I’ve found I’ve internalized it. It’s taken a long time to delete the voice of the inner critic (N-Mother and N-sister, & ex-Ns) and rewrite the internal script.
        All the effort is so worth it, isn’t it?

  3. Tonya says:

    I’m sure I know for a fact that it takes a certain person… kind of person to stay obsessed or involved on some level with the ex N. To still desire his love and attention and affection even after he has dropped the mask. Normal people without any issues with receiving or giving love would leave the minute the mask drops and never look back but only every blue moon in awe that they ever tangled with such a man or woman. But not the type of people like myself who cannot stop looking back and wondering. We are all on a website still learning about that person who dropped the mask. We still think about them…we still miss them…we still want them…but yet we do not. I feel that this is an indicator of wanting something we cannot have. Also due to now we have knowledge that the N was bad and was wearing a mask yet we still think about them and mourn and seek to understand. That seems to me like wanting to tame the tiger. As far as love avoidant verses someone truly capable of recieving Normal love of another….wouldn’t we simply move on to the next person and seek the love we do want….? Why do we want this love and desire it from a person who we now know cannot truly give it or even posses it.? That is why I say love avoidant….of course the love avoidant isn’t truly aware that they are a love avoidant…they just go to a rock for water rather than a sea 🌊…..there is a sea of people that surround us that we can possibly love and get love from…..yet what are we doing now? We are still hung up seeking answers about those who cannot give or receive our love. By doing this aren’t we avoiding focusing our attentions on those who have the ability to give us that which we say we crave and want. I do wonder if the very thing I say I want more then anything is actually something I am afraid of and do not know how to handle. In fact I go as far as to wonder if I would end up hurting someone who actually had the ability to love me and receive love from me. Love is actually very scary if you think about it. When someone loves you they make themselves vulnerable to you and that puts a lot of power into my fragile hands and I’m not sure I would handle it correctly. I have suffered a lot of pain in my life and I really don’t want to ever hurt or destroy a truly normal persons heart for my lack of healthy abilities. The fear I have is hurting them. I am already hyper sensitive to the emotion guilt and I cannot handle to feel it very often. I have noticed though that having the knowledge that a person does not have empathy or much of a conscience makes it easier to not worry if I will hurt them….because I know they cannot be hurt not like I have. I feel no guilt concerning the narcissist not like I would if it was a normal person who could actually have their heart broken. Not saying I am purposely seeking out men who cannot give and receive love but more on a level that I am unaware….maybe something inside of me even before the mask drops….knows that this person cannot be hurt and thus I feel safer with them. I don’t know just my thoughts not scientific facts just my thoughts on the subject based on my experiences and dysfunction in relationships. I can truly say even though I can relate the the Narcissist in some levels….I will say in my opinion based on what I know about myself…I am the exact opposite of a narcissist and that is because of my great fear of hurting someone who makes themselves vulnerable to me in a relationship….I DO NOT LIKE TO CAUSE other people PAIN….not good people not people with a heart. Not anyone really. I think it’s because I know how pain feels and the misery of it. I also hate the emotion guilt and it’s very powerful to make one miserable.

    1. Lori says:

      Do you feel there is a name or condition associated with how you are ?

      I am Codependent and we are oddly like narcissists only on the opposite end of the spectrum. While Codepebdents appear to be love addicts, much like the Narcissist unconsciously fear intimacy and tend to choose people who we know it won’t occur with and if we do end up with normal people we end up bored with them

      1. SMH says:

        Lori, I am really curious about this co-dependent thing because my narc’s IPPS is definitely co-dependent. I could not figure out how someone could want to be with a narc, though they do have a family and the facade to maintain. My therapist said ‘some women’ are also super avoidant (I am avoidant but probably not extremely so) and I notice that narc and IPPS appear to lead very separate lives. In some ways it is very traditional – she doesn’t work, she only dabbles in things – no real interests – and has nothing to do with her days. I told him I was puzzled about this (I did not want to be IPPS) but now I realize that this is what he wants out of a partner. I am really different. Can you explain from the insider’s perspective what a co-dependent gets from a narc? How is it different from any other kind of intimate attachment?

      2. Lori says:

        Well the short answer is someone to fix. Codepebdents find their worth in fixing things and people. A lot of Codependents will tell you all they want is love and intimacy but when they get it they lose all interest. It’s kinda the same with a narc once they have you they don’t want you anymore. I have been told that it’s an unconscious fear of intimacy and both seek to control but through different means.

        It’s not that a Codepebdent sits around and says I want a narcissist not at all. This is all unconscious. It’s my opinion that Narcs and Codependents are drawn to each other because each sees elements of themselves in one another which is at the onset these 2 feel completely comfortable with each other. I had a very tumultuous 5 year realationship with a Narc many years ago and I remember him saying “it’s like we’re addicted to each other” that relationship left me quite damaged only back then there were no resources no talk of Narcissism. I just figured it wax all my fault and yes mam more than a decade later he resurfaced professing his undying love for me

        Smh I will say this.. it’s hard for you to know what life is like with the wife because you only see what he wants you to see. If their lips are moving they are lying.

        1. SMH says:

          Lori, Thanks for your response. I know things not because of what he said – he barely said anything – but because of social media. It was all public, I told him that I had been analyzing it for months, and I diagnosed his marriage for him when I was escaping :-). I didn’t do it in a mean way – just straight up. The way they interacted (not at all) was really foreign to me, as was her life in general. I keep waiting for her to post a picture of the two of them together, as all of her friends do with their husbands, but nope. She doesn’t even show her own face. It’s really weird.

          I think I have co-dependent tendencies but I also think it’s a spectrum, so maybe you feel alone here but I will admit that I went from co-dependent to super empath. That had more to do with other things than with narc. He did not change one iota the whole time…during my co-dependent period I was also fascinated by how opposite we were. Later on, not so much. I think in the beginning he thought I was different than I am because I was different than my normal self. As I began to normalize (normal for me) I had to tell him several times that I was trying to protect him from me.

        2. SMH says:

          Mine was very tumultuous too, Lori, and we would also talk about addiction, though he would couch it as ‘intense.’

        3. namaku Agnes says:

          This ” Codepebdents find their worth in fixing things and people. A lot of Codependents will tell you all they want is love and intimacy but when they get it they lose all interest” is exactly explain me 😱.

      3. Lori says:


        I have to giggle though because if you even suggest or even mention the word Codepebdncy to some here they get all offended lol but the cold harsh reality is that like many not all but likely quite a few are undiagnosed Codependents. Codependents are a Narcs victim of choice. I have always found it quite interesting that on a Narcissistic abuse forum I’m the only diagnosed Codependent? All I can say to that is hmmmmm lol

        The problem is that people read an article or two and think they understand Codependency. Codepebdents like Narcs come in all different flavors some meek and mild aka the doormat others quite assertive and controlling, but people tend to associate it only with the doormat and immediately say well Im not that !

        But I still find it interesting / odd that on a site like this I’m the only admitted Codependent ? Well I think one other admitted it but that’s all I’ve seen

      4. Insatiable Learner says:

        Hi Lori, You wrote, “A lot of Codependents will tell you all they want is love and intimacy but when they get it they lose all interest.” I have always known about this part about myself. When I am unsure about someone’s interest in me, I want them. When I secure it, I lose mine. So you are saying this is typical of co-dependents?

    2. Lori says:

      Very. Because a lot of Codependents fear intimacy. I’m not saying that’s your case. There are people who fear intimacy who aren’t Narcs or Codependents

      1. Caroline says:

        IL & Lori
        so interesting following your discussion.
        When I was a teenager I had low self-esteem. If I had a crush on a guy, I’d think he was wonderful. Then when he fell for me I would despise him for liking me. Then I’d treat him badly. Sounds like N behaviour, now I think about it.
        I observed this behaviour in myself, had no idea why it happened or how to change it. I had a lot of dysfunctional baggage.

  4. Lori says:

    Is this during devaluation or post discard ? Cause I can honestly say he really hasn’t done anything to me except for some fake profiles.

    HG if the narc has me blocked everywhere but phone and even does that from time to time, ignored all my texts (I don’t send any anymore) is that discard or devaluation? In your teachings you’ve said if leave any means open it’s not discard but silent treatment. Is that correct ? I don’t contact him. I’m just wondering which one HE believes he’s doing.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I would need more information about the extent of the dynamic beforehand because you may have been disengaged from and then the phone avenue is opened up as a passive hoover to cause you to make contact OR you are in devaluation and the blocking on the phone is a silent treatment. A consultation would allow me to extract the necessary detail to provide you with accuracy.

      1. Lori says:

        I tend to lean toward doengagement and passive hoovers. I haven’t spoken to him since he blocked me 4 months ago. That would be a pretty damn long silent treatment ! Lol

  5. G. says:

    Exact words .

  6. wounded says:

    Not love avoidants, no. We are believers fighting against the unbelievable. Narcissism is one of the Dark Triad personality disorders having crossover traits with psychopathy and sociopath.

    HG’s image of the flaming heart with EVIL at the center was accurate. They tempt us finding different ways to burrow into our head and hearts. Unless someone has tangled with one it seems inconcievable. Which is why they often get away with it.

    In doing research I was stunned how many serial killers had narcissistic traits. Being in a toxic relationship (which everyone has dealt with at one time or another) is totally different than being targeted by a narc. I compare them to a slow release poison.

    1. DebbieWolf says:

      Dear Tonya

      I think you raise a good point about love avoidants. I think there is definately truth in it for some people.

      I’m no expert..far from it..but I wonder if it isn”t so much to do with really wanting to avoid love but thinking deep down that one isn’t worthy of it.

      Feeling that you may let someone down later and not wanting to hurt them is something normal you know and sometimes things sadly don’t work out in general and it is just the consequence unfortunately.

      Remember the other person is responsible for their part and choices too…it isn’t all about you being responsible for them like a mother..
      An honest relationship includes sharing concerns and the other person has a choice.
      They themselves are responsible for their own wellbeing.

      Of course we care and do not want to hurt anyone…that is also how they should feel and you both take the chance in love..hope it works out. If it does not..(narcs aside.).it sometimes doesn”t. But both equally are in it.

      I understand what you mean about still wanting the unavailable, taming the is a character of determination and perseverance..also self esteem plays a part..if we actually win them over then surely we really must be someone very worthy to have got them?

      I read somewhere once that the price of love is grief..It is really. (For different loves like pets or whatever.too..) but for the lifelong true loves..til death do us part.
      Some people know that they are willing to pay a big price in grief because they know they have that love.

      There are definately real reasons why someone goes for someone unavailable..I’ve done it a few times too in my varied also helps or appears to help when it inevitably fails. Then the failure is pinned to that reason mainly…that oh well (he/she depending,) wasn’t available and then we don’t have to look at other reasons that are perhaps deeper issues of our own ego or self worth etc.

      I think a fear of not being truely good enough is often deep at the heart of things and is very hard to face if so. A fear of failure. That is one of our masks that we sometimes wear just for ourselves..

      But you know failure in life at anything is not a bad thing a lot of the time. And it is often necessary to teach things. When we learn from it we improve for the better..never be afraid to fail. Do your best as you always do..that is all anyone can ask of themselves and that is all that is required. If it isn’t good enough for some then that is their problem..not yours.

      Hey..did you know that the humble post it note..used worldwide and by most is actually the result of failure?
      It began because of glue..turns out it was sticky but not sticky enough to be all purpose glue..hey presto..ended up on post it notes.

      Failure ended up being a multi million pound venture.

      It is a deep issue being attracted to the unavailable but it is not insurmountable by far. Again it is something that begins with facing our fears about a few things about ourselves..don’t be afraid of finding out them out. Once you really accept that perhaps you do not feel good enough it goes from there as to why.

      Perhaps encounters from the past have weighed upon you believing wrong things about yourself.

      You seem thoughtful and kind. Caring and capable. It would be an honour for someone to find you and love you. It is their priviledge.
      You are valuable and worth it.

      Absolutely.. and you deserve someone who is available (not a narc) and where love is not about you trying harder and harder again having to adjust to constantly keep their attention or make this high grade you might think you need to be with them.
      We cant hold back because we dont want to hurt them..if you really love someone often you cannot hold back anyway..

      So in love avoidant is to look closer at self worth and how the unavailable kind of partner is a bit of a shield for our possible fear of failure.

      With kindness and care

  7. SN says:

    Yes, who else?

  8. Iko Flugel says:

    HG, what do you thing about the movie “Split” in terms of narcissism?
    I recently re-watched it through the prism of my newly acquired knowledge about different types of personal disorders.
    In NPD there is a Splitting of the Self into at least 2 parts – the helpless child and the omnipotent protector.
    The narcissist devalues/torture others in order to keep the grandiose façade intact and to feed the Protector.
    In the last scene the Empath (Anya Taylor-Joy’ s character) demonstrates some phenomenal empathic traits which helped the narcissist to build the final part of his false Self – the Beast.
    Brilliant performance of James McAvoy.

    1. SMH says:

      I haven’t seen this film, Iko, but I will look for it because this is how I think of my narc – as a split self who is both grandiose and a helpless child. It will be interesting to see how it is depicted on film. Thanks for the tip!

      1. Iko Flugel says:

        Hi, SMH and SN! I’m not a cinema-fanatic, but it happened that recently I bumped into another excellent movie that can be seen trough the glaces of narc-empath dynamics: “Elisabeth Harvest”
        Spoiler alert: The narc made 6 copies of the empath in order to have an opportunity to experience the golden period (the honeymoon) and the devaluation phase (destroying her) as many times as possible.
        He even made his new Self (false self). BTW he had an IPSS of course. What a powerful narc character – intelligent and very cruel. Elite & Greater. Dream-like!
        I’m tying not to interpret everything through my new knowledge about narc-empath relations, but obviously I just can’t help myself doing that.;)))

  9. nikitalondon says:

    unbelievable that someone can be sooo mean to a family member

  10. Tonya says:

    Question…it’s so simple too….why….why….must we love the bad ones? Why can’t we just love the good ones? Why is it the bad ones that get our heart and not the super nice guy just looking for a break in life? Are we masochist or rather am I….I mean did I somewhere down the line learn to believe that pain equals love ❤️ 💔🖤…..did I learn to learn to love the pain? The strange love….strange highs and strange lows….strange love that’s how my love goes….strange love will you give it to me? Will you take the pain I will give to you again and again and will you return it…? When I listened to those lyrics long ago when I was 17…..I had no idea of that which I know now. Why must we obsess and chase the strange love? Or maybe it’s more….that we want that which we cannot have….we want to tame the tiger….with the danger of being eaten. Trying to understand them obsessing over them…..we become addicted to the highs and the lows they give us. We want their love….the one thing they cannot give. Or maybe we too are love avoidants which is why we persue the impossible because we can’t handle love either. Not normal love which possibly we have never received ourselves.

    1. DebbieWolf says:


      No. It isn’t the fault of loving people.
      They get conned and because of the compassion and care that loving people have in abundance believe that it will work with anyone.
      Love conquers all is the belief but it depends how and where you administer it.

      Conquer by leaving them that abuse others ..
      applying real love, respect and care to yourself first will save you from the “whys”.

      Not easy when being a self sacrificing and caring for others type.

      However discernment comes more easily when you learn to love yourself first.
      Then free and fitter to recognise what just isn’t on anymore and not put up with it, to counter it and avoid it.

      These people steal the goodness that can be spread in the right places to be of benefit to those who would so need the tenderness and care of the loving.

      These people are robbing the lifeforce they have no right to take.
      Effectively locking up either mentally or physically a real treasure of a person for their own ends only.

      Love is there to share and benefit, to make good. But you cannot flog a dead horse.
      We have to be our own best friend and really care about ourselves much more.
      We wouldn’t see others go through it and approve of it…we must learn to disapprove of it vehemently enough when it is us being treated shabbily so that we can change our mindset.

      It isnt necessarily loving the baddies.It’s being conned and charmed in the beginning. Being stuck with thinking that that is who we are with. If they did their dirty deeds and or talked to us like dirt on the first many people would honestly go on a 2nd..and if they apologised and got away with it it shows a lack of care for ourself because we show no caution.

      Might as well just cross a road without looking both we wouldn’t.

      Liars and excuse makers..con artists.

      It is NOT our fault for that..
      once we know though..after we know it probably it is partially if we do not act in our own best interests.

      It is hard to believe some people are so cruel and abusive..manipulative.
      We don’t want to believe..
      But we must.

      Often there is no answer in life to why.
      However we always have to move forward regardless of it. We have no choice but to move on.

      There is no avoiding pain in these cons but we can use our “map” of new knowledge and navigate to minimise it thoroughly..steer in new directions.


      1. MB says:

        DW and all, I don’t know how to turn my love inward. I’m not sure if I’ve ever learned to love myself. What does that look like?

        1. DebbieWolf says:

          Hello MB

          I don’t think it is as much as turning love inward as such…but about allowing yourself to share all the good in you with yourself aswell as all you give out.

          In small steps… to not listen to negative words about yourself and perceprions either from others or from yourself.

          It is just to value yourself. It looks like:

          Repeating some kind words about you. Appreciating good things about you. Noticing positive things about yourself. Liking and respecting yourself for these things.

          People can be so self deprecating that in the habit of that it becomes a false reality. The same as when being abused or devalued.

          If it is difficult to see the positives it begins by saying just one lovely thing about yourself in the mirror. Every day.
          Even if you do not believe it at first and feel silly.
          Do it.
          Other things will start to be more self affirming as you begin to see yourself smile at YOU.

          It is positive energy that can and does become a way to care more about yourself.

 looks like YOU.

          And isnt it the attractive things ..the lovely things that the narc saw…?
          And then..later how they keep us stuck thinking that we are not much really..the salami slicing ..little by little…chip by subtle chip.

          Damn that!

          Well…tiny slices of our own work in reverse.
          Use it.
          Begin with a little compliment to yourself.
          Repeat it daily. Add to it.
          Believe it or not it works.

          I don’t want to come across as being all hearts and flowers here or unrealistic… not at all….but honestly salami slicing works both ways.
          When our mind changes gear…we by default change too.

          MB…you will see what it looks like …because here you are…YOU.

          Begin to you do the work.
          And it isnt even work.
          Its a remark…at first you may think later…”so what..this is daft”..”oh I’m not doing this”
          Ignore that and then the next day go do it again.
          Keep on.
          Things change.
          “I am beautiful” for a while…then
          “I am worth caring about”

          Start with them.
          Watch what happens.

          1. MB says:

            DebbieWolf, Thank you so much for your thoughtful and caring response. I will try the exercise. Along with that, I’ll try to recognize negative self-talk and shut it down.

          2. DebbieWolf says:


            🌹🌹🌹 😊

          3. DebbieWolf says:

            Aw MB

            You are so very welcome.⚘

      2. Caroline says:

        You are a treasure.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      People do love a challenge. Also, amongst the things we hear growing up are: Those playing hard to get are the ones most worthy and anything worth having is worth fighting for. Complete horse shit but it makes us feel worthy if we acheive it.

    3. Lori says:

      Because It often mimics something from your childhood and or fear of intimacy. You unconsciously seek these people because you unconsciously it will not occur

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