Both Dr O and Dr E (the good doctors) repeatedly like to ask me about my childhood. I do not like to talk about it. I tell them that I do not like to and the reason for that is that I do not remember much about it and therefore I feel uncomfortable talking about something which I do not feel in control of. Everyone is like that though aren’t they? If you are making a presentation but you only have half the material, you feel uncomfortable don’t you? I you are asked a question by somebody but you do not have all the information to hand, you feel uneasy. I explained that was my response and that it was an entirely understandable one. I’m not telling them the real reason behind my recalcitrance. Not a chance.

Unfortunately, Dr O then gets the bit between her teeth in one of our sessions and decides she would like to talk to me about family.

“Who has pinched your bagel this week then? Your brother or your sister?” I shot back seeking to deflect her. She ignored my remark and pressed on.

“Is there anybody in your immediate family you would like to discuss with me?” she asked.



Where do I start ? Why would I want to talk about people I rarely bother with (save my brother)? Why is it that these people assume that I have some overriding desire to discuss a group of people who I am related to but have nothing in common with? What is the obsession?

I remained silent.

“Okay, how about I choose a family member and you tell me three things that you like about them and three things that you do not like about them. Just as something to start our conversation?” she suggested.

I remained silent.

“How about your mother?” she asked and looked at me expectantly.

I got up and left the room. I’m not playing that game with Dr O. No way.

38 thoughts on “MatriNarc

  1. recoveryfromnarcissisticmother says:

    Do you have any opinion around what age a child is when the Narcissistic Personality becomes set in stone so to speak? Some sources I’ve read claim it as young as 2 or 3, others teenagers. There seems to be a huge variation in the thoughts on this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Around 6-9 years of age.

  2. NarcAngel says:

    Ah. The words: from her (HG’s mother) point of view would have changed my view of WW’s comment completely. Without that it sounded like it was WW’s view and thus the contradiction (in my mind).

  3. NarcAngel says:

    Your posts are conflicting.
    First you say HG’s mother had every right to treat him and others any way she wanted.
    Then you say you believed that right for yourself but then changed that thinking when your child yelled for you to stop.
    Then you appear to place the blame on HG (who was a child) for not yelling out for her to stop and bring her to her senses (which btw you have no way of knowing if he did so).
    I happen to know personally that tactic is complete tripe because I yelled stop many times with no good result.
    Unless there is a language barrier here and I have misunderstood, you have contradicted yourself greatly.

    1. Nika says:

      I love my mother, because she is my mother, but her actions were extremely destructive to me, and my siblings, as well as many others. I still have many inner scars. And, it scares me to think about the past because it was so dark and confusing. It was awful, M. Tudor. It was so awful. I still have terrible nightmares. But, it is okay.

      1. Nika says:

        Without warning, it just made me cry. I cannot believe that I am trying to explain my terrorizing childhood with my mom, to a Sociopath. But, compared to those in my past, he has been kind to me. He is always there for me, except when he is on vacation. M. has been a constant in my life. Back in my past, there were real monsters. Real ones.

      2. Nika says:

        What I am trying to say, so clumsily, is that I “get it”, M. Tudor. And, you are not alone. I imagine our moms would have either been great friends if given the opportunity, or killed each other.

  4. Honey Bee says:

    The only thing I’m not eager to discuss (at all) is my own trauma, caused by a mother who had narcissistic traits. I do remember my childhood or I remembered and then put it away somewhere. I remembered pets being killed by my father. I played those memories over and over in my mind and then i put the memories away. Those memories don’t benefit me anymore. Tears won’t bring those pets back and their suffering or pain is in the past. I also vividly remember getting a fork between my ribs. So glad we weren’t having steak … I remember the beatings and the physical fights with him when I was older. I remember climbing to another balcony so I could call the police from the neighbour’s house. The police never did anything. I eventually forgave my father for the things he did. I have never been able to forgive her though. She made me wary of love.

    I am sorry your childhood had been wrecked so much that your psyche prevents you from remembering anything. It must have been awful having a full blown narcissist as a mother. All children deserve better. You deserved better.
    It’s a shame there’s no parallel universe to show you who you would have become under different circumstances.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for your kind sentiments HB.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Honey Bee

      Please know that although you may not want to talk about it, you have company that understands. There are many here (and many reading who do not comment) that can relate to you and your experiences. Forgiveness for it though is foreign to me, so I’m interested in how that helped you if that’s something you care to share.

      1. 69Revolver says:

        NA, there’s something in everything you say.
        You’re a very welcoming presence here.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          That’s very kind of you to say. Thank you.

      2. Honey Bee says:

        (Sorry, HG, long text coming up …)

        Hi NarcAngel,

        I know many here can relate. I feel the same way.
        How did I manage to forgive my father? My father’s had a difficult childhood himself, but that was hardly an excuse or reason to forgive him. I remember the deep sobs when I was a very young girl, but that is a distant memory. I remember later on feeling more hurt by his intent to hurt us than by the actual hurts. I assume I detached from those feelings of hurt and I rationalized the feelings that remained. I can very stoically recount the things my father did when I was a child, but I do remember my thoughts and feelings at the time. I can imagine and know there are people who feel differently. People who were physically damaged at a very young age. How are they supposed to think and feel about pain they did not understand? How are they supposed to make sense or things? They can’t. I do think that is why some people detach from feelings before ever realizing the feelings were ever there or remembering them.

        Some people say physical pain heals and psychological pain will stay with you forever. And although there is some truth in that, I also know it is not an absolute truth. Sometimes the physical hurt causes worse, more permanent damage, even in a psychological sense than hurt that was initially psychological. I don’t know if that makes sense to any of you.

        My mother seemed to love me for more than a decade, although she used the silent treatment often. She often told me no one could or would ever love me as much as she did. Another thing she always said was that I was hers, because she had made me. She thought it was funny, but her remark really angered me. As a young teenager I was very, very happy with who I was, but she wasn’t (anymore) and she had to have her way. I fought her, but I lost that fight when I was 14. I was left with physical, emotional, psychological and mental scars. And some ̎monsters ̎ are difficult to hide. It feels like my mother took ̎me ̎ away from me and it is damn hard to explain this to others. I’m still mourning me. Some say: “No one can ever take you away from you”. Well, it is possible, especially when you’re young.

        I think we as human beings focus on that what is -or was- the most hurtful and damaging experience or event. It can be a conscious attempt to work through our issues or a subconscious fight that has to be won, but we just have to remove that sharp edge or that nasty scar that prevents us from moving and living freely. It is our greatest hurt that keeps us imprisoned.

        I think both my parents had narcissistic traits and although my father was brutal, my mother was way more damaging to me than he ever was. I do know it could have turned out differently, but the damage she inflicted has become my ̎benchmark ̎. I hated her for what she has done to me and my life.

        My mother’s death was very inconvenient. I had other plans and a funeral wasn’t what I had in mind. There was something I was really, really looking forward to (once in a lifetime kind or thing) and it almost fell through. I snapped at her on her deathbed and asked her if she planned on ruining that plan too, like she had done so many times before. She was too far gone to respond. I am not proud of this outpour of pure venom. However, I also don’t beat myself up over it. She used my empathy against me many years before and I paid dearly. I still consider myself an empath, but I don’t trust easily.
        I think there’s not a feeling or behaviour that HG has described that is foreign to (most of) us. Anger, hate, envy, rage, fury, disdain. You name it, we have (probably) felt it. I sure have. I am no angel and I never claimed to be.

        After my mother died there was no one to sink my claws in, as HG would put it. There was no one to focus my anger on. Anger and resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. Well, she died anyway. And something in me changed. I realized she was out of my reach and I would never be able to make her pay for what she did to me, at least not to the extent that I wanted her to pay. So what was I to do? Lash out at others? At mankind? Lash out at my father? Without his abuse my mother would not have been able to do what she did to me, so he did contribute to the bigger problem. But he had already been the boogieman before my mother proved to be a bigger monster. Would it have helped me to focus my anger on him again? I don’t think so. It would have meant throwing myself in another spider’s web, purely out of anger and being tied by anger once again. So, I let it go. There is truth in the adage that forgiveness is not something you give to others, it is something you give to yourself. I gave myself room to breathe, to focus on other things and to build up instead of tearing down, even though the building blocks will never be what they once were.

        I met my (or no one’s) narcissist several years after my mother died and it turned out I had become a lousy negative fuel provider. Which, admittedly, is out of character… I gave him positive fuel, but I couldn’t stomach to feed him negative fuel. I knew he had (undiagnosed) PTSD early on, but not until later did I find out he was also a narcissist. Yes, it hurts. Yes, I feel some anger and resentment and I fantasize and I even have a plan to ruin his fuel matrix, but he’s a damaged individual too. He did not deserve what was done to him any more than HG deserved what was done to him. Or we all deserved. So I still care for that 7 year old child that got thrown in the dungeon. The adult narcissist in charge, however, does not want me to give this inner child the attention he needs in order to shed his weakness and to grow strong and powerful. So be it. I have no obligation.

        1. windstorm says:

          Honey Bee
          Thank you for sharing. I understand much of what you said. Especially about forgiveness being a gift we give to ourselves more than to others. Forgiveness is very hard for me to give. Especially when the other person doesn’t think they did anything wrong.

          My mother is dead, also, and I still can not totally forgive her. My father is long dead, but him it was far easier to forgive. It’s probably like you said in your case, my father wasnt the one who screwed me up like my mother did.

          I’m glad you’re here and look forward to your comments and insights.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Honey Bee
          Thank you for responding. I can relate to a lot of what you wrote. Pieces of my story are all over the blog so I won’t go into that at length except to say that my Stepfather was the main abuser, but I also hold my mother responsible. Sometimes more than he. I never (even as a child) accepted anything that happened to me as my fault or believed what was said about me. There is damage of course, but it has never stopped me from moving forward. I can look at what happened and then put it away again. I did take it out on others for some time. Those people were narcs, and although I see it differently now, I feel no regret or shame about it. Perhaps that is why I have never understood the concept of forgiveness (in circumstances of abuse) and thus asked you the question. The way I see it is they (abusers) don’t deserve my forgiveness and I don’t need any for myself. I know people say that forgiving does not mean forgetting, but thats how it has seemed to me thus far. Honestly the way I think about it is this: I would never expect/suggest a Holocaust survivor to forgive, and it was my own personal Holocaust, but maybe that’s how some of them have been able to come through it, and if that’s the case, I’m glad for them to have found a way. I wish I understood what people feel when they say that they have found peace in forgiveness. I found it here, having my experiences confirmed by a narcissist and sharing with others. In any case, I’m glad that it has worked for you and that you have found your way here. Thank you for sharing what you have, as I understand what it takes to open up. They used to be thoughts and voices only I heard in my head, then they became facts in print that I could see with my eyes and that others could witness. I still cannot say these things out loud, but who knows?…
          You have given me much to think about. Thank you.

          1. MB says:

            NA, I’m glad you feel comfortable sharing here. I also say more here than I do out loud to anybody. As I’ve said many times, this truly is a special forum. I’m glad I found this place and I’m glad you were here when I came along and continue to participate. This place would not be the same without your presence. True story.

  5. 2SF says:

    We all are what we have become due to all the people we engaged with in our lives. Not just the parents, but they are highly responsible for our outlook on the world and our feelings inside.
    Once you learn why your parents did what they did and look for a cause, that is looking at your grandparents, you will be able to see that they didn’t know any better. They just didn’t know how to raise a child in a loving way. They copy the anger, resentment, silent treatments and every nasty behaviour they grew up with, most likely also due to the way their brain is wired. Don’t forget the brain: if the empathy-part is missing, how can you blame a person for not being empathic?
    How awful your past may have been, it’s only when you are able to understand (and therefore forgive), that you can move on and be free of the past.
    For me personally I wonder when I will be able to truly forgive my mother. Probably only after she dies and that thought scares me and makes me sad as well. I struggle so much with my feelings for her.

  6. poitiersdoe says:

    Alguien se ha preguntado:

    ¿POr que los narcisistas sobre todo el COVER , copian la forma de actuar de los CODEPENDIENTES?
    En el fondo desean ser CODEPENDIENTES? Desean ser todo lo que no son.

    O al menos conocen que es la única forma viable de subexistir en esta sociedad.

  7. poitiersdoe says:

    y a la vez , le dan las gracias por haberlos creados tan supremos.

    Vamos lo que viene siendo , personalidad múltiple ( pero a 2)

  8. 69Revolver says:

    I’m still perplexed as to why you visit the Good Doctors?
    To learn? Yes, ok. Or, do you enjoy the mental bantering? Please explain, I’m trying to really understand.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      To learn and to spar.

      1. K says:

        Dr E is a male and Dr O is a female.

    2. Boofhead says:

      To take control of his family, something he doesn’t yet have full control over…. or perhaps it’s Dr O and E that he has a small getting for?

      1. 69Revolver says:

        To date, I do not know the gender of the Good Doctors—I just don’t pay attention. What I DO pay attention to is his responses. If he’s particularly bland or snarky, he must be in session with a male doctor.

  9. Boofhead says:

    Both my narc have issues with their beloved mother also 😇

    1. Honey Bee says:

      My narc did not have an issue with his mother.
      The fact that women traditionally take “care” of the children will have contributed to the high number of matrinarcs mentioned here on narcsite. Women are also more “social”, in a positive but also in a negative sense (anti-social).
      If this was a website about work related problems / burn-out, narcissistic bosses (or colleagues) would probably “rule the roost”.
      Narcissistic mothers probably do the most damage, because their children are victimized at an age when they are the most vulnerable.

  10. J.G says:

    Hello, H.G.TUDOR.
    So it turns out that it wasn’t nice at all… I suppose, mistreatment, abuse, competition, little emotional attention that now, you charge your victims.
    I suppose…

    1. poitiersdoe says:

      JG sabes cuál es la respuesta?
      El monstruo de su madre, nadie como un narcisista describiría mejor a su madre.
      Asco , repulsión, vergüenza, miedo a la soledad, tratamientos de silencio, ver como no te eligen aún siendo un niño indefenso, cariño zero, olores desagradables, adicciones.

      Sentirse desplazado como niño , por cualquier objeto o persona , dandote la importancia de una mierda.

      Nunca hablan de los progenitores, LOS ODIAN

  11. JR says:

    I’m curious….? Is it fear of addressing certain issues from childhood that stops you from going into your past? Every time I try to ask my Father (who is a Narcissist) about his childhood he tends to give a superficial answer and struggles to self reflect.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The past is the past. One of humankind’s weaknesses if the preoccupation with the past, it has happened and cannot be undone. Forward, ever forward!

      1. JR says:

        OK thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

      2. poitiersdoe says:

        the past is the past. And there are hidden youth and beauty , but the future , at the end, just enclose one thing:

        old age
        total boredom

        Our revenge is a cold plate!!

        who are talking about revenge, we are codependent and so nice and good…. jajajaja

      3. Twilight says:

        I agree the past can not be undone, to live there keeps one stuck in the emotions the memories stir, chaining them to repeating things due to holding tightly to an illusion that was created within ones mind.

  12. WW says:

    Your mother had every right to treat you and anybody the way she felt like it. Anybody but her children could just get up and walk away if they didn’t like it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Your two sentences contradict.

      1. poitiersdoe says:

        El pasado pasado esta , eso es cierto, pero no menos cierto que el pasado es la puerta del presente.

        Aunque conocemos sus muchas ramificaciones genéticas, y que es la madre la que vuelca la genetica en sus hijos, no hay que olvidar el comportamiento de los genitores , sobre todo la madre, que es la que cuida al hijo/A.

        Ellos, los narcisistas, conocen cuanto daño les hizo su madre y como les gustaría borrarla de su existencia.

      2. WW says:

        My four year old son once cried a very loud and sudden “maman arrête!” (mom, stop!) when I lost my temper and was shouting at length at him. In that moment I realized that nobody had ever stopped me, in my own home I gave myself the right to do and say as I pleased. My children both under the age of 7, I realized, could not leave. They can’t walk away. They are dependant, on me, what a horror. But my son had found my off switch. I broke in that moment, I turned 4 myself.
        My mother two days later told me my father (alcoholic, smasher of things) came home from a bar when I myself was only 4, I was so upset, crying sat on the stairs, that I screamed “stop”. He stopped yelling. He stopped smashing. Then there was no more drinking for 9 years. No more raging for 9 years. He broke.
        Maybe when matrinarc froze you out she simply didn’t see you. The flames were too high.
        Had you suddenly shouted a single “stop!”, it might have brought her back to reality.
        Stop, mom (or dad), I love you enough to not let you hurt me – not just because I can’t walk away but because you are the only love I have ever known.

        As I was rereading this to spellcheck my dad rang me. Out of the blue, at midnight – I answered, we don’t speak too often, he said he called to say he loves me. HG don’t tell me human relationships don’t matter. That people aren’t connected somehow.
        I was ensnared by a narcissist likely because I believe love is more powerful than fear.

      3. Honey Bee says:

        I think WW just wanted to point out that all narcissists (including you) feel they have every right to treat others the way it suits them in order to harvest fuel.

        A narcissist might have the right to treat someone badly, but others don’t have the obligation to put up with it. Everyone has the right to walk away, but most children are denied that right, because they need someone to stick up for them -while they are still children- and to teach them that they are worthy. And to teach them that they are as entitled to be treated lovingly as everybody else is (entitled). Children born to narcissistic parents are trapped and by the time they can get up and walk away, the damage is already extensive.

        I see no contradiction, just pain.

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