Why The Narcissist Must Reject Intimacy



Narcissists abhor intimacy.

Why is that? It is an instinctive and necessary response. Intimacy creates attachment. As I have explained in Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery we attach our victims to us, but we do not attach to you. If we became attached to our victims we would not thrive and survive because our fuel needs would not be met as fully as they must be. We must be in a position to move forwards, unhindered, unfettered and unleashed. We must be free of anything which slows us down and prevents us from achieving The Prime Aims.

Our necessity of being able to jettison our appliances in one guillotine action drives this rejection of attachment and thus it follows, we have to reject intimacy. Intimacy creates bonds, it creates links, bridges and couplings – that is all very well when it is done to bind you to us, that is permissible but it must not and cannot be reciprocated.

Take for example a failing Intimate Primary Partner Source (“IPPS”) (a spouse, partner, boyfriend/girlfriend) who is no longer providing us with the requisite fuel, character traits and residual benefits which are necessary to our survival. This person has been idealised, they have been devalued and there has now been a disengagement trigger. We must reject them wholesale, we cannot dally about the task, holding on and keeping them as the IPPS when they are not functioning properly. That is highly likely to cause in all narcissists (save the Greater and even then to us it will still cause problems) a fuel crisis. A fuel crisis would arise because the narcissist would continue to engage with an appliance which is not delivering and the narcissist, if attached in some way, would be dedicating too much time for too little reward. Time would not be available to draw fuel from the secondary and tertiary sources to compensate for the shortcomings of this IPPS. The result would be a fuel crisis or at the least, a reduction in fuel levels which would cause the narcissist to function less effectively and feel the presence more fully of that ever present chasm of oblivion.

The narcissist may have a Candidate IPSS (“Intimate Partner Secondary Source”) waiting in the wings, ready to be crowned IPPS, but because the incumbent IPPS remains, this fresh, functioning appliance cannot yet be locked-on to the narcissist. Thus the narcissist finds themselves in a position of malfunctioning IPPS without being able to draw fully on the bountiful fuel (and other benefits ) of the IPPS-In-Waiting. A terrible state of affairs.

This is the scenario that intimacy threatens to generate. If intimacy is allowed then it will create tendrils that bind us to you and make it all the harder to jettison you at the flick of a switch or push of a button. By rejecting intimacy, the threat of attachment is countered. Intimacy, genuine intimacy can never happen, we are incapable of it and that is why there must be a wholesale rejection of it. Our narcissism means that genuine intimacy never gains a foothold.

Yet, what then of those narcissists that DO exhibit intimacy in the heady days of the seduction, those tender touches burnished with the fiery tinge of the golden period, those hugs, those delicate brushes of skin on skin, the gentle embrace of parted lips upon parted lips? I know many of you will have experienced that and indeed I have exercised such behaviour myself on many occasions – is that not then going to create intimacy and thus risk attachment which will prejudice our existence?

Not all narcissists will exhibit such intimacy. That is a preliminary point. It is far less likely to occur within the Lesser school of narcissist. It will be evident amongst Mid Range and Greater Narcissists. Why does it appear if intimacy is abhorrent to us? Simply, as with all matters ‘narc’, our narcissism causes us to do whatever is necessary to acquire what is required for our existence and supremacy. If that means mirroring your delight in rescuing puppies then we will do it, if that means demonstrating an enthusiasm for Asian fusion cuisine then we will do it, if that means singing along to Celine Dion then… well maybe there are some places we will not go. However, if intimacy is a necessary device (and it invariably is) to securing the seduction of a target then our narcissism drives down and supresses our innate abhorrence of intimacy for the purposes of the greater gain ; namely your seduction and ensnarement.

All well and good so far in using intimacy to ensnare, but where does that then leave us with regard to the risk of attachment and the consequential impact on our needs? Intimacy often appears through seduction. It is not felt, but rather it is administered as a consequence of understanding how the victim desires this, how it is so useful at supporting the illusion and enabling us to bring that victim under control. Of course its application is entirely instinctive (save with added calculation where a Greater is involved) and is achieved through copying what has gone before and is seen elsewhere – between other people, in books, in film, what is spoken of by other people in various forms. The intimacy is manufactured and applied with a skill which causes this counterfeit tenderness to appear genuine – but it is not.

It is superficial and merely a gloss. Yes, it appears to all intents and purposes to be something genuine. It is certainly real because you do not imagine it, but it is not genuine and because, as your emotional thinking surges owing to your repeated and sustained entanglement with us, you do not scratch beneath the surface and accept that what you see is what you are truly getting. Thus, since it is not an emotional response, but a learned one, this renders attachment unlikely to occur. However, our narcissism is not done yet. It must ensure that there is no risk whatsoever of attachment. Accordingly, Stage One is the process of preventing attachment through the application of intimacy in an entirely shallow manner. Stage Two is the process of devaluation.

The application of devaluation means that intimacy is withdrawn. Gone are the hugs either in their entirety or they are replaced by brief, card-board stiff interactions. The long, lingering kiss is taken from you and either has no replacement or is substituted with a brief peck on the lips, the cheek or the forehead. No longer will we hold your hand, no longer will we gaze into your eyes, no longer will we allow our fingers to trace the contours of your body making your skin tingle.

The application of devaluation and with it the removal of the false intimacy is a further safeguard to ensure that even IF there was a slight possibility of intimacy creating attachment, it is totally removed. Devaluation paves the way for an eventual disengagement (if there is a trigger) so that the disengagement is swift, effective and in one fell swoop.

Imagine if you will an escape chute. For this to be effective it must be clear and uncluttered. If vegetation (intimacy) grows across this chute it might block it altogether and prevent a prompt escape or it might be partial and slow and hinder the escape. Thus the false intimacy means that the growth of this vegetation across the chute is minimal, slow and far less likely. Devaluation is the flame thrower which comes along to burn away any encroaching vegetation, so come the point of escape (disengagement) this is totally effective.

Thus, our narcissism rejects true intimacy and applies false intimacy and then removes this false intimacy through devaluation. Accordingly, the rejection of intimacy means that attachment will not happen. Therefore, when our needs dictate you go and are replaced by another or just let go and existing appliances are relied on, the disengagement is swift, absolute and effective. We waste neither time or energy, allowing our resources to be wholly directed towards those prime aims and especially the acquisition of fuel.

Intimacy must be rejected to facilitate our existence and success.

302 thoughts on “Why The Narcissist Must Reject Intimacy

  1. Jade says:

    My narc was married so was I. I fell for him and wanted to have sex with him he would say no. For four years this went on. He kissed me one time and then he discarded me for a way way below downgrade
    They got caught having sex and his wife left him
    I’m just baffled as to why her and not me When I seen him last week he couldn’t stop staring at me!
    He was friends with my hubby so I thought maybe that was why don’t know

  2. Sophia says:

    In reality, the narcissist is most often dumped, not a dumpee. But of course they like to recreate reality into them being waaaay more desirable than they are, even in blogs. Most functional or semifunctional people will dump their sorry asses as soon as they get a whiff of their sad, empty, boring true selves. But this truth makes them feel less grandiose and important LOL.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There are two significant problems with what you have written.

      The first is that actually experience, my own personal behaviour and of the large number of people who consult with me tell a completely different story to what you have suggested. It is the narcissist that ends the relationship many more times than the victim.

      The second is using LOL at the end of what you have written.

      1. SMH says:

        LOL HG. Knew I could count on you for some entertainment. Sophia, I did dump mine but to add what HG says, this normally happens after the empath cannot take the manipulations anymore. In effect, the narcissist forces the other person to dump them.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct. It is usual the narcissist who disengages, it is less often that the victim escapes first. They may do so eventually, but not after disengagement and hoovering back in.

          1. SMH says:

            True. I was hoovered back in umpteen times. It wasn’t until after six months NC that my ET was low enough to make my final escape and even that wasn’t final final. Arghhh.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for your honesty SMH, that is important for readers to see, to assist them.

          3. StrongerWendy says:

            HG gave me the tools to escape first with most recent brush with potential romantic relationship with narc. For the first time (and uncomfortably so since ghosting is against all my instincts) I was the ghoster and not the ghosted.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            HG approves, SW is seizing the power!

          5. SMH says:

            Glad to be of help, HG. There is a pattern but that pattern has lots of variations, so the details matter. The great thing about you (or one of the great things, I should say) is that you see the pattern so clearly and don’t get us all lost in the details, except to embellish your stories.

        2. Empath007 says:

          “In effect, the narcissist forces the other person to dump them”

          For myself, I find, that when I do not want to be in a relationship I will begin acting in ways that (I perceive) will drive the other person away. My goal… is always for the other person to make the decision for me, so that I will not have to make the decision myself. It is amazing to me that I could act so deplorable, and yet, the person with me will not leave. Now that I understand narcissism… I understand my “deplorable” behavior is but a tasty treat for them, its a win for them, they love it for the many reasons HG tells us they do.

          When I realized this about myself, I realized my self confidence is not where it needs to be, because I am unable to make a definitive decision… and be confident enough to stand in my own truth… I always want the other person to do it for me, but I have to do it myself.

          And yet even with all this new knowledge I can’t do it. The other persons wants/desires always take precedent over my own. and I end up acting in ways that are “out of character” in order to settle the score.

          In my case though… I did ultimately “escape”. because his final hoover was unsuccessful.

          1. SMH says:

            Sounds like me, Empath007. Trouble making decisions, forcing the other person to dump me, wondering why MRN never did, finally escaping. I always thought that I did this because I did not want to ‘hurt’ the other person but I now realize that it’s my own immaturity and lack of confidence in making decisions, as you say. I blame my narc mother because she has always been contrary and super critical unless she needs my attention, in which case she is so solicitous that it strikes quite a false note.

    2. Kathleen says:

      HG… It’s good to see you in true form! I was thinking the same thing about the comment. One thing she says though is it a truly healthy stable person would dump them pronto.
      I think that is true. I know I became addicted to my narcissist I engaged with. I was focused on sexual chemistry and I throughout all reasoning. I was insane and then I became addicted to thinking I was going to have a real relationship that was loving and caring and enduring. I think now I would not engage with one at all because of all the learning I’ve done regarding narcissism and how they act… I can pick up on it really fast. I have a boss in my management chain now who is 100%… So now I have to learn how to work with a narcissist. My strategy is boundaries and very short answers yes and no. And letting emails set for extra time without responding so that they are not like oh I have you on a string. I need to locate HG’s work regarding dealing with a narcissist at work and read through that .
      I love you HG! I hope everything is well with you

  3. jenna says:

    BKK and Windstorm,

    Well said BKK. I feel the same way about Windstorm. She helps many in her personal and professional life, and here. She is one empath I like having on my side!

    1. jenna says:

      I think my comment got posted in the wrong place. Sorry.

    2. windstorm says:

      Thanks, Jenna!

      1. jenna says:

        You are very welcome😊

    3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Hi, Jenna … Thank you so much. I tried to respond to one of your comments elsewhere, a few days ago. I typed a response and it went “poof,” I went back and tried again yesterday… same thing. It might be that particular spot was so full of data or Jesus was trying to tell me to keep my mouth shut! So I didn’t try for a third time. But it was nothing bad… just narc talk, their characteristics and how I feel like I’ve adopted some of their traits all too easily. Whatever I was trying to say first inorganic your comment, but like plenty that I say… it must not have been that important if I can’t even recall!

      Anyway, that’s sweet of you to say about Windstorm. She does seem to be a pretty special lady.

      I’m not always “here” as I have to pop in and out (due to busy-life-stuff and my occasional need to de-escalate from all this pain) but I haven’t seen you around, so I was also trying to say that it’s good to know you’re well! 😊

      1. jenna says:

        Hi BKK,

        Thanks for your reply. It has happened to me too where I will type a comment, a very long one at that, and then the page refreshes and it’s gone! So I do understand what you mean! About acquiring narc traits while with the narc, it happened to me also, that’s why I am determined to lose them. I want to bring happiness and peace to people in my life. It sounds a little sappy but it is a conscious rewiring of the brain that I am aiming towards. So far, so good! I have to admit, it’s a little boring at times, because sometimes I feel like commenting here on certain issues, but I think twice these days, because I am so scared that my comment might hurt someone. That is the last thing that I want to do. I do not want the wiring to reverse. I want the highly empathic pathways to be reinforced and gain high prominence. Not that I was a bad person before lol, but I was overly sensitive for sure.

    4. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Jenna. Nice to see you. I certainly agree with your comment about Windstorm.

      1. jenna says:

        Hi NA,

        Thanks! Always nice to see you!

  4. Empower Empaths says:

    Why does the false intimacy need to be removed if it is false?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      To provoke you and secure against any risk of potential attachment. Remember, although the intimacy is false, most narcissists do not recognise that (they think it is genuine and therefore that creates a risk which must be removed).

      1. MB says:

        Just go ahead and attach HG. It’s ok. I promise!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No thank you.

          1. MB says:

            Suit yourself, but that’s the only way you will keep her!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No it is not.

      2. Empower Empaths says:

        Oh wow. That’s wild they can think it’s real 🤯 Thank you!

      3. Kathleen says:

        That’s tough to understand HG. So a narcissist hates attachment and rejects intimacy yet they think they have intimacy or express intimacy well? That sounds like they are striving for intimacy. Or ? Something. Are you saying that unaware narcs are just acting blindly yet in a mandatory fashion to achieve the one way attachment (Fuel pump to narc) ?If so how do they stop their own attachment if they think they’re being intimate and vulnerable? Argg – it’s very confusing. Backflow stopper installed is put in place why?
        A healthy normal person will eventually reject false intimacy. So with the new woman are you betting on trauma bonding via intermittent reinforcement?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Their narcissism halts the attachment. Think of it as a ‘host’ which is the narcissist – the Lesser or MidRange unaware of what they are and why they act as they do – with the narcissism acting to protect the host by causing the host to operate in particular ways. By analogy, if you touch something that is hot (not realising it was hot) , your reflex action makes you jerk your hand away – you do not think ‘oh this is hot I had better move my hand’ you just do it. Your reflex action protects you.

  5. Caroline says:


    I hope you see this…I lost your last reply comment to me/reply link with it. A flood of thread comments came into my inbox, & your reply got accidentally deleted, when I actually meant to save it.

    I read what you said about your birthday party. Timing is everything sometimes, so if you would like, give me a reply back after your party/tell me how you’re feeling subsequent to that…and I still may have a few specific thoughts to share with you.

    For now, I think “silence is silver” (not saying “golden,” as that now reminds us of narcissists!) — and I’m also not giving you the “silent treatment,”; instead, I’m giving you extra time to reflect inwardly. Sometimes things transpire that have a way of helping someone see something important, all by themselves – and your birthday may be one of those times.

    Enjoy your party & friends. Smile/laugh lots, and do not rely on anyone for your joy that special day. You can bring your inner joy forth, for yourself.


    1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

      Hi Caroline. I did not see any previous comments from you other than the original one which I replied to, but I am seeing this one, so I wanted to reply. Yes my birthday and my party are both this weekend. Piano boy still has not told me yet whether he will be in attendance or not. He seems to be dragging it out until the last minute. I have no idea what is going to happen but then again that’s usually how these things work out. This is his indirect way of making sure the spotlight is focused on him and his decision. Although he would never view it that way because he such a good person. 🙄
      I am always willing to listen to whatever you would like to say to me, whenever you feel like saying it. Despite the desire I have in hoping for his presence at my party, I promise you I will do the best I can do ensure that I enjoy my day no matter what and not let it be about his decision to attend or not.

      1. Caroline says:



        This was my only other reply to you — because I really want you to focus on your party now, not him! But we can go back-and-forth after your party~just send me a reply any ol’ place on the blog. BTW, I just love your emoji faces – they’re so spot-on & never fail to make me laugh. 🙂

        Okay, so here’s the plan:
        -Do not expect “Piano Boy” to show.
        -Please, no piano at your party!
        -Have a blast & enjoy all your blessings — and deal with the narcissistic junk another day!


  6. Pauline says:

    Thank you Kathleen. I would like to know nothing about devaluation but being with a narcissist you can’t avoid this haha.

  7. SMH says:

    Oh the old approach/avoid thing again. You are afraid of being hurt, as we all are. Be brave with Shieldmaiden but not to the extent that you have to sing along to Celine Dion – ewww. If she has asked you to, you should dump her now!! Norwegians are not known for their musical taste.

    Have you read any of Karl Ove Knausgard’s autobiography? I only made it through the first volume (about his father mostly) but I liked it a lot.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, I haven’t.

      1. SMH says:

        If fictionalized (?) memoir interests you, read at least the first volume. Distant parents, death, the mundane. I’d be curious to hear what you think.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you, I shall look into your recommendation.

    2. Supernova DE says:

      I remember you posting here in the past about attachment styles. I have been reading more about them and can now see that narcissists are dismissive avoidant by definition. I’m still confused about myself. I seem to be anxious preoccupied in romantic relationships, but very avoidant in family and friendship….no idea why that would be. I’ll be talking to my therapist about it shortly.
      I also have been reading that the approach-avoid pattern in attachment styles is probably the most destructive relationship pattern that exists….but for me it also feels familiar, as that is how I remember my mother being. Mostly ignoring my existence altogether, but once in a while being very affectionate and depending on me for her validation (likely when my dad wasn’t around).
      The psychology of all of this is exhausting, and I’m so very tired of dealing with it. I just wish I could be normal, and not feel anxious all the time.

      1. SMH says:

        Supernova DE, I have the same problem. A mother who was/is dismissive avoidant, except when she needs attention. I like to think I have a healthy attachment style but I really do not. I can be very avoidant too though not so dismissive – maybe more fearful avoidant?

        I am not a psychologist but it seems to me that attachment, even in adulthood, partly depends on the style of the other person. Narc was of course also an avoidant (though maybe fearful like me rather than dismissive like my mother? hard to know). But my mother is fairly predictable and narc had this rapid approach/avoid thing – hour to hour, week to week. It made me very anxious, just like yours, but I am not normally anxious, even in romantic relationships.

        I used to talk to narc about it – I’d say ‘why am I acting like a toddler with her mother? It’s not as if my mother abandoned me’ etc. I was pretty fascinated by it all, even though it was painful. I probably tolerated it because, like you, I was somewhat conditioned. I have also learned here how to better deal with my mother.

        Are you anxious with your husband? If not, that is probably a healthy attachment and your anxiety will disappear once the N is out of your life. It is exhausting, I agree. But it’s not YOU. It’s relational.

        1. Supernova DE says:

          I think my baseline style is fearful avoidant.
          When I first met my husband I was this way, he used to make many comments about it being very hard to get to know me and that I wouldn’t let him in.
          I am absolutely like that with every single person I meet. My husband is probably the only person on this earth who knows the real me. The narc and maybe two or three close friends know me fairly well, but I just generally can’t go all in…ever…and I have no problem with that and no desire to change it.
          Though it is sometimes difficult for me to tell what is avoidant attachment style and what is introversion, because I am very introverted as well, and don’t like talking to people all that much. Oddly, I talk to people ALL DAY at my job haha.

          But once I let my husband (and narc) in, I am more anxiously attached. I am a very confident person, I acknowledge I am smart and fun to talk to, have interesting opinions, and am physically/sexually attractive. I don’t feel I have self esteem issues.
          Despite that, with my husband, when life gets busy and we do not have time to have good talks or we haven’t had sex in a week or whatever, I need a lot of reassurance from him to feel that the relationship is still on track. It irritates him, but we have figured out over time how to work it out.
          Obviously, when I wanted the reassurance from narc when he was actually pulling away, that’s when all the problems starting arising….cue my manipulations, his counter-manipulations, and all the chaos and crazy making that ensued.

          1. SMH says:

            That’s interesting, Supernova DE. I don’t think I could be with someone I was anxious with (cue huge problems with MRN because of my anxiety). I think normally I put walls up/pull away so that I don’t find myself in that position. I’ve done it in just about every relationship, and just about every guy I have ever been with has 1) told me I do whatever I want regardless of them and 2) my work gets in the way because I am very single-minded and dedicated to it. Several times I have upped and moved to another country in the middle of a relationship. Or I will lock myself up for days while I am working on something. I am happiest in long distance relationships and would have been happy that way with MRN too. It was just his inconsistency that I could not handle.

            I don’t think my normal behavior is caused by anxiety. It rather makes me anxious to be too close, which I think is the mark of a true avoidant. I had this problem with ExH, who was very anxiously attached. The more anxious he got, the more avoidant I got. Kind of the opposite of what happened with MRN, though MRN and I did talk about it and he responded postively (like your husband), at least for awhile.

            I am very extroverted, which does not sound like you. Maybe you are anxiously attached as a rule? I don’t know how that would be connected to self-esteem as I never put the two together. I think of myself as having normal or even high self-esteem but I think people with high esteem can be extroverted avoidants or be introverted and have some anxiety in intimate relationships. I think these are all self-protective things that we do – and narcs do them too – they just are not self-aware and don’t care to examine their own behavior because their needs get met whereas ours don’t, which is why we question everything.

            It seems to me that if you and your husband have open communication, you should be able to resolve the problem if he understands your attachment issues. Maybe it is worth seeing a therapist about? At least to have a better idea of what the dynamic is and whether you can fix it? It would be much more relaxing for you because as you said, this all is very exhausting! I did not figure any of this out until I split up with exH, and that was just before I met MRN, so it is all jumbled together in my head! I wasn’t much interested in the psychology of all of this until recently.

          2. SMH says:

            Just want to add, Supernova DE, that my problems with MRN were similar to yours – but it was a repeating pattern. I would get anxious and he would pull away (except for during one period when he very consciously stayed connected for a whole month). But then I would pull away because I couldn’t take the anxiety, and he would approach again when I had calmed down. I would return to him, he would make me anxious, I would pull away, he would pull me back etc – that is why I said I think we are both fearful avoidants. He didn’t try to make things worse when I would pull away – he would be really sweet whenever I would come back, but then the whole cycle would repeat. It was like we both needed breaks all the time to calm down, which is why this period of NC might seem like just another break to him (not to me though).

          3. Supernova DE says:

            I can see in myself that I am avoidant at all times and that the anxious pattern comes about In two scenarios: when I feel on the brink of being abandoned (cue issues from dismissive mother) or when I am expected to open up and be vulnerable.
            This layers with my introversion (or is the introversion a result of the avoidance?) so that I don’t have close friends, or close relationships with my family. That does not bother me in the least.
            The situation with MMRN was perfect. Long distance, text and phone etc. There is only so much intimacy that can be gained in that situation and I found relief in that. But our pattern was EXACTLY as you describe and each of us needed breaks frequently, but for slightly different reasons. Of course at the time I felt abandonment in his needing a break and it spiraled for me.
            My husband and I have been together so long and genuinely love each other so we have worked out the kinks in these attachment styles over time with open and honest communication….something you can’t do with a narc.

  8. Supernova says:

    some book for supernovas and mid-range? Any translated into Spanish?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not available at present Supernova.

      1. Supernova says:

        Thaks Hg !
        I hope you dedicate something for us, the relations with our type is not similar during and at the end of the society with the narcissist although it fulfills the beginnings already identified by you.
        recommended reading?
        Bona nite!

  9. ava101 says:

    By the way, HG, does this kind of mean, that the ex narc told the truth for once, when he said that he wasn’t intimacy phobic … ??
    And he did it on purpose?!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, he is intimacy phobic.

      1. ava101 says:

        Ah, okay, that’s what I thought. 😉
        Thank you!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  10. Supernova says:

    Mr. HG:
    1. How does love look from your eyes? (Great Narcissist Major)
    2. Why is your new relationship different for you? Could you share key points that cover / fill your new partner to feel that your needs are covered?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This will be covered in a forthcoming article.

      1. MB says:

        I’m so looking forward to this article!

      2. Supernova says:

        I will be expectant. Thks!

  11. Kellie Mccoey says:

    I do not feel love for the narcissist. I never did. It was always addiction, infatuation and Trama binding.

  12. michelle clark says:

    So, if a woman never stopped being un-enthusiastic with a narc, he would still have to devaluate her, unless she reached his idea of perfection? Has any woman come close? What is the longest golden period has any woman been blessed with, that anyone knows of?

  13. nfl3 says:

    Is a narcissistic able to feel a closeness with perhaps friends from primary school? Or is that also feigned? I noticed that narc seems more natural and himself with old friends.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is the product of the greater sense of control, the reduced challenge to the narcissist’s sense of superiority and the fuel provision.

  14. Kathleen says:

    I think the best outcome is a person that stays in the dysfunctional for a long long time. This relationship caused me to face my “need for approval or need for love from unavailable people “ and to face why I’d stay in something so effed up- when I had all the means to walk(friends, good job, etc)
    Inthink the garden variety mid ranger narc flourished in a conflict based relationship where they continually pull the strings. Only a very low self esteem/ or disadvantaged or trapped person would stay. I think like – trophy wife or golddigger as ultimate negative example.
    And I mean absolutely no insult to anyone who got involved with a narcissist and gotten trapped and stayed for decades. I’m not claiming to understand everyone’s circumstances. But to soothe my own mind about understanding these people- I kind of think of a typical situation would be an older wealthy man -who is a narcissist assist as well-manipulating a much younger girl(or boy) Before that younger person has been able to establish their identity or has been able to secure their own financial support. Anyway I’m rambling off topic thank you

  15. A383 says:

    HG, genuine intimacy would involve giving of your ‘true self’ and being deeply vulnerable with another person, something that is impossible for the narcissist due to childhood abuse. You were never shown love and affection as a child therefore your brain was not wired correctly and now as an adult can never be rewired – no empathy.

    Therefore, everyone must be kept at a distance regardless of where they sit in the fuel matrix – control, power, chaos and everyone at arms length. No one can ever be allowed to see the real HG. Even you don’t know who you are.
    Is that correct?

    So…… are you destined to wander through life never truly connecting with another living soul. Never, ever, feeling truly loved and cherished just for being ‘you’ despite all the women who have probably expressed their deep love for ‘you’ over the years.

    May I also ask, despite what looks like another exciting GP for you and your new friend, is the desire to remove ‘the mask’ any stronger this time.
    (Hope that’s not too personal).

    Thanks for your time. Best wishes to you as always x

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am truly loved and cherished, what that is founded on is irrelevant.

      1. A383 says:

        Irrelevant, really?

        Sorry, but you told me once on this blog that you didn’t even know who ‘you’ are.

        Just trying to understand the intimacy thing on a deeper level HG. No offence to you.

        Thanks for you time. xx

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No offence taken, the point is one has needs, so long as those needs are addressed the manner by which that is achieved is ultimately irrelevant.

      2. MB says:

        HG, NA this touches on the love vs addiction topic. How can you say she truly loves you HG? Might it be that she is only addicted? Her brain and body flooded by the chemicals of infatuation?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because I know what love looks like, I have seen it many times.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        HG, it IS relevant!
        Honeysuckle, please… listen to me… I have no doubt that Shieldmaiden cherishes you (you – the aspects of the man that is real as well as what is feigned). You have her hooked. And if you were to reveal to her a portion of your secrets, she won’t stop loving you. She’s in too deep right now.

        Even if she is well-read on NPD, no one TRULY understands this disorder until she/he has been intimately involved and then discarded… so at this point, SM would likely accept your disorder with love and understanding.
        It’s what we empaths do.
        She might be cautious, more guarded, taken aback,… but if you’ve weaseled your way into her heart (or if this actually unfolded a bit more naturally) once you’re granted a place inside the heart of a true empath, we still love you… even when we hate you. (Now for the rare few who reach true indifference, that’s another story, but we’re nowhere to that point yet here.)

        Now, I am NOT encouraging you to reveal yourself to her at this juncture. I am only saying that whether she is a.) trying to slowly build a romantic relationship with you that started as a friendship or b.) you two are simply colleagues who have an FWB (hated to say fuckbuddy) type of agreement or c.) if she truly is “The One” and you are doing your best to have pure intentions here… she is already enmeshed. (What am I saying – you’re the greater who made sure of that?)

        Anyway, what I am trying to say is… yes, you are right, she is getting what she needs by believing your GP image and you are definitely getting what you need by being fueled. But for ANY relationship to last… to get past that inevitable itchy period of, “I’m starting to get a little bored here.” … there has to be some form of real intimacy. A genuine bond needs to have been formed.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for your observations BKK.

        2. Twilight says:


          A true Empath would love HG.
          It would also be a unique bond between them.

      4. Kellie Mccoey says:

        So are you mirroring her like usual or are you trying the “new method ” set in by the good doctors?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am not mirroring.

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I am very proud of you, HG… for allowing me to call you Honeysuckle and for your efforts regarding Shieldmaiden.

        Seriously, this effort is groundbreaking, and I wouldn’t be an empath if it didn’t warm my heart. But one day at a time, right? (It sure ain’t gonna be easy.)

        Still, hang in there, sir. If anybody can do it, it will be you.

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Excellent point, Twilight.

      7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Mr Tudor,
        My female tuition is feeling this …. “something, hmmmmm” …. about you and lady L
        I’m not sure what it is, but ?????? …. we shall see
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    2. FYC says:

      A383, Hope you dont mind the intrusion of a third party”s observations:
      You speak in absolute assertions, yet objective research (Ill avoid references to keep this brief) has shown that narcissism is likely created as a coping mechanism to lack of attunement (demonstratable love, affection, care, meeting of needs, being seen and heard and responded to accordingly.). We all have coping mechanisms, but not all rise to the level of a personality disorder.

      Coping mechanisms and personality disorders can change, but require a sustained desire to do so, self awareness and intelligence to learn and choose different behaviors and the willingness to risk trying something that may trigger fears. New neural pathways can be created. Behavior can be modified. Change is possible.

      I think HG has been exceptionally candid in revealing himself on this blog and in his other works. He is known here and loved (not romantically, but loved unconditionally none-the-less). As for his relationship with Shieldmaiden, I have no doubt he is loved and adored and cherished by her. If she came to know of his narcissism, she may come to understand it and choose to stay or choose to go, yet still love him. Love is a complex experience and defined differently by everyone. Even the same individual will come to a different understanding of love over time.

      I do not know HG beyond his works, but I agree with BKK, if anyone can alter their behavior, HG can. More impressively, he has expressed a desire to do so. My hope is that HG will find his new endeavors a worthwhile experience and continue to explore less hurtful ways to meet his needs.

      Lastly the concept of ones self is ever evolving.

      Hope this was helpful.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you FYC.

        1. Lou says:

          HG, have you ever considered what you’d do should SM decide to break up with you after you tell her about your psychopathy? Or you are sure she will stay?
          Sorry if someone has asked this already.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Why would she do that?

          2. Kim e says:


          3. Lou says:

            LOL. I know. I was just trying to see if you had considered that scenario. Thanks for answering my question.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome. The key will be to ensuring no such adverse reaction. I am confident that will be achieved.

          5. jenna says:

            Hi HG,

            What do you think of showing her narcsite and asking her opinion of hg tudor? Then you will have some idea of what she thinks. Although I don’t know how she would not have heard of you considering you’re on youtube too. “A psychopath” – I almost forgot you’re a psychopath. I hope people don’t shorten it to ‘psycho’ lol!

          6. Lou says:

            Oh I am sure you will present things in a way that will avoid a negative reaction from her (you big smoothie)
            Will you let us know how it went when you finally tell her?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            If you are good.

          8. Lou says:

            Well, if you can’t and won’t attach to SM, it would be good if she doesn’t attach to you either. Don’t you think? It would be better if she entered the relationship more with her head than her heart.
            But I guess that, if she is a CEO earning 7 figures, she must be the kind of woman that doesn’t lose her head.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Too late for that.

          10. Lou says:

            Apart from NA, we are all always good.
            Ha ha.
            Just kidding NA!

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Ha, it’s all good. I was going to say in that case I’d never find out, unless someone gets a message to my naughty stool.

          12. Lou says:

            Yes, I was thinking of the naughty stool when I wrote my comment.
            But there are also the ones in the dungeon.

      2. FYC says:

        My pleasure. And thank you, HG.

      3. A383 says:

        FYC – thanks for your input and thanks for keeping it brief!

        It wasn’t really helpful if I’m being honest.

        First off, you are correct, you and I do not know HG – thankfully many would say… however, I believe I am correct in my assertions having been raised in a narcissistic household myself and entangled with many over the years.

        Unfortunately, for me, I feel HG skirted over the real issue of why intimacy is to be avoided – and I was perhaps trying to push him further to reveal more – i.e. “it’s because my mother never loved me properly and now I have to take it out on everyone else…. especially women.”

        I agree with you when you say narcissism is a coping mechanism due to abuse suffered during childhood but let’s be clear – and every expert in the world would say the same thing – THERE IS NO CURE FOR NPD.

        Yes, sure, they can perhaps adapt their behaviours somewhat (Sam Vaknin himself only recently said this in one of Richard Grannon’s videos) but only for short periods and only if there’s “something in it for them in the short term.”

        But real … REAL change is not possible – “give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man!” Aristole/Jesuits.

        But perhaps you know different FYC.

        Sorry HG… them’s the breaks!

        Most of the people on this blog – not all – are merely willing HG to change because he helped them (including myself)… “so why can’t he help himself.”

        I’ve yet to read anyone here (despite all the super empaths who were ensnared by greaters allegedly here amongst us) or on any other blog or forum relating to NPD for that matter, say “I was the lucky one, my narcissist managed to adapt his behaviour and now everything is great.”

        Unfortunately, for most sufferers of NPD, including my own father, death will be their only escape from this dreadful disorder.

        That will also include HG’s mother – herself a victim of childhood abuse (I believe HG revealed that) but yet, very little empathy displayed on this blog for her… is it because she’s a woman I wonder.. mmmm!

        But hey .. the IG pictures are great! Might as well have some fun meantime.

        Best wishes FYC and to you of course HG. x

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, the behaviour of MatriNarc is not the sole cause of the rejection of intimacy. The rejection of intimacy arises as part of narcissism, which as I have repeatedly and consistently explained is a self-defence mechanism first and foremost. Narcissism arises as a consequence of genetic predisposition and environmental factors (here is where one includes the behaviour of MatriNarc but that behaviour is intermingled with other factors).

      4. FYC says:

        A383, Thank you for your expanded perspective. I have researched this area for a few years and do not claim to be an authority. I do however try to take a meta analysis from existing data from a variety of sources in an effort to understand and form an opinion.

        I am not trying to create false hope. I am suggesting, current psychological journals do note change is possible. It is not possible for another to change (i.e. “fix” or “heal”) another person. Change is only possible if an individual strongly desires to embark on such an endeavor; gains an understanding of the contributing factors (via the cortical brain), learns how to affect said changes through behavioral modification creating new outcomes and thereby offering the individual an opportunity for a different experience. These efforts would need to be sustained by the individuals ongoing. There are many hard-wired elements that influence this process as previously outlined.

        Most people do not seek real change. It is a significant undertaking. My understanding of coping mechanisms is they remain because their perceived reward is greater than the risk of confronting the fears/experience/injury that created the coping mechanism at an early stage of brain development (limbic brain and brain stem). Further, these memory tracks are laid down as experienced as a child. So as an adult we can comprehend the issues but struggle to address the original emotional injury. But there are techniques to do so for the rare person that pursues this.

        I apologize in advance if this waxed too nerdy but I am trying to be precise because of the importance of this topic. As for HG’s comment about a genetic predisposition, it has been speculated and some assert such a link has been identified, however this remains contested by other researchers not definitively proven. I certainly do not know what is empirically correct. And, I too am influenced by my own experience with narcs (familial and otherwise) and my emphatic traits so you are correct that I cannot be objective.

        The changes HG has chosen to pursue will not be easy, but I believe possible given his unique set of circumstances.

        I hope you find the answers you seek and appreciate the discussion.

      5. NarcAngel says:

        FYC and A383

        I enjoyed reading both of your individual views and points and will keep them in mind as I observe. Thank you for offering them.

      6. Rachel says:

        “You are welcome. The key will be to ensuring no such adverse reaction. I am confident that will be achieved.”

        She probably is a strong person that can handle the truth, but, like most of us before discovering narcsite, doesn’t know about narcissism. Even if you’re doing your best to treat her the best you can, I can imagine it will be very hard for her to accept/understand that you will never love her the way she loves you. Of course, you are the one with all the knowledge to explain her everything, but, do you think you’ll also visit your doctors together? Or another neutral person? Or is that a very strange thought?
        I mean, it might be a bit shocking for her to just start reading your books. I’m probably thinking too far ahead.🤔

      7. FYC says:

        NA, You are certainly welcome. I enjoy reading your comments as well. I especially appreciated your comment on the costs—perfectly stated.

      8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Thank you, FYC.
        See, HG,… See….
        FYC said it well. We aren’t making this shit up because we’re mushy empaths. There’s some (albeit relatively new) science behind it.
        Now for my disclaimer on science:
        The incredible edible egg was seriuosly studied at least 17 times…
        Good for you; bad for you; good for you, bad… until science decided that eggs are GOOD for us. (Woo-hoo – I love eggs. 🐣) Most people can safely consume 1 – 3 eggs per day without greatly affecting their cholesterol or increasing heart disease.
        So I’m just warning that science seemingly “changes” everyday with new studies. So who knows where anything will eventually go?

        But FYC is right about laying down new neural pathways. Say I have OCD (which I don’t, but I do… meaning no official diagnosis, but sometimes I feel as if this form of anxiety hits me with certain issues) … Hypothetically, say I have one of the stereotypical version of OCD in that I can’t leave my home without going back to check and see if I left the iron on. The more I go back and check the iron, the more those neural pathways are going to strengthen… like a well-worn path in the carpet… only I’m talking getting stronger not wearing down.
        You got our drift.

        Nothing about changing anything is easy, especially when we are speaking of the inner core of who we are. And I appreciate that most narcissists see absolutely no need to adjust their way of coping, so we’re not taking about turning a toad into a prince. We’re just talking about Prince Charming exhibiting repeated behaviors that will strengthen his neural pathways.

        This part will be familiar to any narcissist: Fake it ’til you make it. So much of our behaviors is learned. Just look at how much more narcissistic I’ve become since being entangled with my narcissist. People adjust to their environment. We humans are well-designed to adapt.

        Like FYC said, you are loved here HG.
        L-O-V-E-D. (And I’m taking in a sisterly way that has nothing to do with your Star Wars collection. You know how we mean that. I know you know.)

        Whew! By the way, nice to meet you, FYC!😊 I wish I had stumbled upon you sooner. Just curious, are the initials personal or For your consideration/convenience? I completely respect if you rather not say.
        (And HG, don’t worry about false hope; at this point, most of us can’t stand our narcissists anyway.)

      9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        A383, I acknowledge your viewpoint and definitely agree with much of what you wrote. NPD is a serious and complex condition, and I accept that I will never fully understand it. No matter how much I study, it will never fully make sense to me. There’s no need for me to carry on about such since FYC did a very nice, and I feel, accurate job in explaining.

        I certainly don’t see my narcissist ever changing. First, he is not yet aware enough to even try to modify behaivors and he is very set in his ways. While anything is possible, that is definitely not probable.

        And to be honest, the odds aren’t in HG’s favor either. But we wouldn’t be having this conversation if he weren’t already acutely aware, thoroughly educated and most importantly willing. Sure, we don’t personally know HG, so our ability to ascertain his willingness is a guess. And it’s easy to see that what enthusiasm he does have is clouded by his own Golden Period with the lovely Shieldmaiden.

        But I do sense a sincerity in HG. I might be off, but I “feel” (just had to throw that in there 😉) that this man, our host, has made strides in his awareness unlike any other. Sure, he still throws out jokes and comments that indicate he is not ready to peel back the layers. And it appears that he is going to approach this relationship more from an angle of self-modification regarding the behaviors he need to showcase…. well, an extended Golden Period, if you will. So only time will tell. We understand the rarity of this. Hell, most relationships between healthy normals don’t last. Perhaps all that I am really trying to say is… more is possible if we’ll only do our best to allow it.

      10. FYC says:

        Hello BKK, Thank you for your personal insights I enjoyed your egg example and smiled because this type of flip flop is constant in the pursuit of “science” (there is a reason medicine is called a practice). It is very difficult if not impossible to find absolutes in anything.

        There are countless variables within and without an object of study. There, too, are research biases that seem rampant. Not to mention, ego driven “research” that asserts a conclusive “result” and poses it at fact (narcissistic approach—“I believe this, therefore I will create a study that supports my opinion and conclude it as fact).

        There is much scholarly research that approaches behavioral change. Yes, it is possible. But, as you outline so well, it must be the desire of the subject to achieve said change. To expand, they must be self aware (high self monitor helps); possess an internal locus of control; be willing to face difficult fears that feel emotionally devastating; be equipped or assisted in addressing their original injury and defenses and resultant coping mechanisms; and they must be open and willing to accept and internalize a new perspective and pursue any change ongoing (first to create new neural pathways and ongoing to reinforce old coping mechanisms are not necessary.

        Your anxiety/OCD example is a good one. Another is substance abuse. It is intellectually understood that such abuse is detrimental, but emotionally, when stress arises (or any other trigger) addicts often return to there coping mechanism
        . I think HG does an excellent job in describing this type of faulty emotional experience when he discusses the emotional sea (part one). (e.g. We love a narcissist; the narcissist behaves as a narcissist; we are disengaged—but instead of relying on logic of what happened (thank to HG’s writings) we instead hold on to false hope that the Golden Period was real love and as such hope it will return. Never mind the fact that if we had known all facts before we let ourselves love, a precious few of us would have selected the narcissistc behaviors from the relationship menu! We would choose a different place to dine that offers a menu of good food with wholesome ingredients.

        Yes, FYC is for your consideration. I use others as well to maintain anonymity.

        Thank you again for inviting further discussion. I believe it is very important to support others’ healthy endeavors and refrain from absolute judgements. That said, I do not suggest anyone hold on to misguided, false hope. I feel for A383’s pain and resignation. But, life is not black and white. Change does happen. I have seen it. If we remain undaunted, it is amazing what can be achieved.

      11. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Hello, FYC – Your words are wise and well-written. Your account of science and the varying influences on its studies couldn’t have been better said.
        (Loved your post, FYC.)

        I often struggle to find another who shares my viewpoint, especially one who sees this human interaction (life) through my perspective. I think I found that in you, FYC. 😊 I also have seen the great change you speak of within my own circle of clients and friends. Of course, it occurs most often after the proverbial “hit-rock-bottom” episode, promting the eye-opening desire to suddenly grasp onto whatever needs to be done. But I have seen great accomplishments in others.

        Unfortunately, I don’t see that HG is ready to completely peel back the layers. I so wish he were willing! Correct me if I’m wrong, Mr. Tudor, but I sense that what you ARE willing to do is modify your behaviors to essentially extend the GP as long as possible (bite the silver tongue; attempt to resist tempestuous behaviors; control the rage; refrain from certain sexual diversions, etc.) To be honest, I’ve always wondered, “If it can be accomplished during the GP, why not longer? But I get it; narcs need fuel. And that’s that part that worries me here, FYC. Because as you so eloquently stated, the necessary actions to actually dig deep enough to take on the creature requires tackling who/what put the Monster of Pain there in the first place.

        I believe that HG knows of what these accumulative events were, but no way in hell does he want to revisit that shit!? (If I’m off course here, HG, I apologize. I’m using my intuition here, and I’m pretty sure I know how you feel about that?) But like everyone here, we’re cheering for your success. Not because we think it means our narcissist will change, but because we CARE about YOU as a fellow human being….

      12. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        So, I’ve been thinking, as I often do, about your situation, HG. I have my suspicion of certain events, but I don’t wish to discuss my speculations. I joke so much on this site, but I never forget the magnitude of what brings us all here. So please know that my unsolicited advice comes from a place of care and concern. ❤

        If you ever do decide to dig deeper, to truly take that creature by the horns, he will lose his strength. I realize you might think that will cause YOU to lose strength as well, but just the opposite, my friend. I think the creature takes energy AWAY from the brilliant gifts you display. The creature might seem like he’s keeping everything balanced inside, but he is not responsible for your unique talents, HG. YOU are in control of that. I don’t believe for a second that you would lose your edge in this dog-eat-dog world.

        Now, I can only imagine that peeling back the layers would cause the creature to give you a helluva a fight, but he WILL NOT destroy you. It is always uncomfortable for an individual to go there, especially when one has been forced to cope in alternative means just to survive his world… and no one wants to consider visiting such a place when all is seemingly going so well. But.

        I was wondering if you told someone HG… just one person?

        What would that feel like to say it out loud? You might not want to speak of this to The Good Doctors, as once you’ve been in conversation with them this long, I’m sure in some ways, they become your friends. Perhaps an unknown therapist that you would only see once, someone who doesn’t know you at all… or a priest, how would it feel to reveal a deep part of yourself to a stranger?

        You could walk in any random Catholic Church during confession time, and sit in one of those little booths; tell a priest some of these secrets; hear his response, and then get up and walk away. How would if be to know you shared a piece of yourself… a piece that you’ve hidden from everyone, including yourself?

        What would that crack lead to? Because I have said it before… there is goodness inside of you HG. Pure Goodness. (I know – empath talk) But it is true.
        I see that the pain is hidden, and you don’t want to dig deep enough to expose that vulnerable spot buried within; but I’ve said it before… that creature isn’t really a monster. Set that bastard free and then tell the world how you did it! We’ll buy the book.. probably even help produce it onto a movie. (I get to play Shieldmaiden. 😊)

        1. NarcAngel says:

          A Catholic church!! Within 5 minutes HG would likely have:

          Thanked the Priest for the ‘snack of crisps needing salt, and grape piss’.
          Fucked a nun in the confessional.
          Ripped a page out of the bible to wipe his dick with.
          Mocked the Priest’s ‘cheap frock and garish hat’.
          Demand that he not be disturbed while ‘grabbing a short nap’ on the altar.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA “Thanked the Priest for the ‘snack of crisps needing salt, and grape piss’.” HAHA!

          2. MB says:

            That amused me NA. Some funny visuals in there!

          3. Kim e says:

            ROFLMAO…….I pictured every single one of your descriptions in my head and loved it all.

      13. FYC says:

        Hello BKK, You are most kind! I try to be precise, but this area is very complex so I feel I have not done it justice in my remarks as I am still formulating my own opinions.

        As previously stated HG appears well equipped to address change. Since motivation is key, I am heartened that HG is willing to modify his behavior (in a less hurtful way) while still meet his needs.

        I don’t think HG stated he wishes to address his original narcissistic injury nor attempt wholesale change (please, correct me if I’m wrong, and my apologies if I am). I’ve seem to remember a comment in the past that he does not see this as possible or necessary since his psychological defenses “work” for him (again, HG please correct me if this is wrong).

        When discussing change, some use the term “cure” or the lack thereof. I do not think this term is relevant. I do not view narcissism as a disease. I view any defense and coping mechanism as a method by which humans adjust to deal with their environment. This is simply magnified on a greater scale as it rises to a personality disorder.

        Although I have many times made great effort to help others or help them help themselves, I have learned through experience that change must be the desire and effort of the person who seeks change and they pursue any change on an ongoing basis (no one and done). Further, if the motivation for change is to obtain something, versus a personal desire to overcome pain and evolve as a person, the outcome will likely be temporary at best. I may offer a different perspective to another in an attempt to shift their understanding of what is possible, I can offer empathy for their experience whatever it may be and encouragement without judgements or criticisms (never “should” on someone ;), but change is created from within.

        A personality disorder is a highly complex process and occurs over time in conjunction with brain development and emotional development. Even addressing the original injury might not be helpful. I have yet to come across a study that demonstrates it is so. I have read that therapists achieve greater success by offering greater empathy for the narcissist’s experience and implementing a specific technique to reframe their experiences and help the narcissist give themselves what their caregivers could not.

        I remain hopeful for anyone who seeks positive change, because I have seen and experienced change in countless ways. As for HG, I truly hope he can one day know with certainty that his “creature” (the injured child that was told he is not enough) is, in truth, more than worthy, more than enough, lovable and magnificent–without any need for proof of works or need for fuel to know that truth.

        Thanks again for you thoughts and kindness, BKK.

      14. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Narc Angel,
        That was perfect!
        Absolutely perfect!

      15. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Hi, FYC … I understood your original stance, but I do understand even better now that you’ve expanded. I’m not sure exactly if or where HG has a addressed going deeper into therapy? But like you, I have gotten the impression that he has no plans to do so. I have had clients talk about their inability to peel the layers back that far, so I know it can be a traumatizing experience… sometimes actually causing setbacks.

        I believe as you do, that change can only come from within. I was only pouring out my thoughts on a way to perhaps “begin” a process… and I sincerely thought that I had a good suggestion until The Naughty Angel slapped me back into reality!!! 😀

        I haven’t laughed that hard in a while, so my attempts were well worth it… just to see NA’s response. ☺ I was typing my thoughts before attending an American Heart Go Red Luncheon … just sitting in my car pecking away, and I swear… while I was pouring out my suggestions, People Are People played on the radio. Being the empath that I am, I took it as a sign that I was headed in the right direction. Now, the station was 80’s on 8, so I guess DM popping up on the radio wasn’t THAT big of a sign? Still. (They play a lot of DM on 1st Wave also.)

        Anyway, I do see how it’s hard for any of us to change as I’m eternally full of hope. And like you, this ordeal breaks my heart; I wish I could make it all go away. (Even though HG sees no reason for it to. Ugh!) And it’s hard not to find encouragement when I have personally witnessed change that I once would have never thought possible. Mix that all together, and I’m one hot mess.

        I should probably just go to church tomorrow and pray on this matter some more, but if I see any missing pages in the Good Book, it’s Narc Angel’s fault if I disrupt the sermon with giggles. (I have actually seen pages torn out of hymnals before and wondered, “Do people really need to get rid of their gum that badly!” – Now I know!)

        Best wishes you, For Your Consideration & For Your Insightful Views! 😊

      16. FYC says:

        Hello BKK, I do think you understood and please accept my apologies if my reply came across otherwise. I was only trying to differentiate between degree and type of change.

      17. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh, no worries, FYC … you did a fine job in relaying such, and you did so with great intelligence AND kindness. 😊

        Like you stated, I’m just trying to figure this out as I go along. Since so much of HG’s personal/public journey is essentially unprecedented… it’s exciting, fascinating and frightening all rolled into one complex experience! It’s no wonder our thoughts are firing away inside our empathic brains.
        I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts from your perspective… not just because of the components that match mine but also for the aspects that encouraged me to think further. We’ll be watching this show together, FYC, hoping for a happy ending.

      18. FYC says:

        This discussion sent me back to do further research. An important caveat on the nurture versus genetic component appears to lie in the distinction between narcissist and psychopath. While the comments I made referred to research published on narcissists, I never researched psychopathy. Apparently, the leading thought in this area is that psychopathy is genetically predisposed. Given HG self identifies as both, I stand corrected and apologise for my ignorance on that topic. However, it does makes HG’s desire to alter his behavior (to lessen the negative effects) even more impressive as this is exceedingly rare for a psychopath. Wishing you the very best.

      19. A383 says:


        I would be obliged if you would refrain from statements such as, “I feel for A383’s pain and resignation.” You do not know me.

        Also, what HG is attempting to do re his relationship with the SM has already been done by one of the world’s leading authorities on NPD, Sam Vaknin.

        Sam is married to and lives with his second wife Lijida, who accompanies him around the world speaking on NPD.

        They have a functioning, albeit unique relationship in that Sam is cerebral and Lijida is codependent… I’ll let you work that one out for yourself.

        Sam also has the academic credentials to back his NPD work up, as opposed to HG, who writes and operates solely from his own life experiences, just like the majority of commentators on the blog do.

        *** HG, your work is far superior btw. ****

        So yes, it can be done but it would have to be along the same line as the Vaknins – a mutually beneficial relationship.

        Lijida clearly loves Sam despite his narcissism and he seem “happy” to have found someone who supports and understands him.
        But then she knew what he was from the beginning. It was a level playing field if you like.

        But to be honest I just don’t think that type of relationship would provide HG with enough fuel, let alone how the SM would feel knowing that her chosen life partner could never love her – again in the traditional sense.

        With that in mind HG, given your age, 40s, (sorry but I have an image of you) I really can’t see what is in a long term relationship for you.

        There will always be women who love and adore you.
        Always another lovely Golden Period just around the corner.
        (Which one of us in all honesty wouldn’t swap places with the SM – albeit we feel for her cause we know what’s coming – well let’s hope not but….)

        Also, with your abilities surely you could get the good doctors to sign you off at least with a “much improved” outcome, in order to secure the inheritance .

        However, I truly believe what you need to find is a person of your own creation, a weaponised empath who knows the rules from the get go.

        Someone who can handle you intellectually but still provides more than enough fuel because they truly love you and I mean truly love you, despite all that your are (sorry) but more importantly they knew what you were from the beginning and accepted you anyway.

        Just a thought.



      20. FYC says:

        Perfectly stated, BKK, I could not agree more. Here’s to hope!

      21. FYC says:

        HG, I stand corrected. I had never researched psychopathy. I was only referencing published research on narcissism. It appears the prevailing research in that area is that psychopathy is predisposed genetically.

        That said, I still have hope due to your intelligence, awareness, willingness—and freedom of choice!—you will prevail. I look forward to you sharing your experiences on this further. Best wishes and sorry for the lack of knowledge on that matter.

  16. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    Isn’t the addiction to the fuel in itself forming some sort of bond?

    Since quality of fuel varies greatly, how does it not feel like an attachment to the source, at least on some level?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Read ‘Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery’.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I will, HG … I will heed your recommendation, as you know I’m always up for a good read. I was just trying to make a point that intimacy in its simplest form, described as closeness and familiarity, might have more of a significant role than credited. ❓

        To be honest, my question was prompted more so because I’m finding myself worried about your new love interest and it’s starting to burden me in ways I don’t need.

        Unless she’s just a prop to teach us a lesson… which has crossed my mind multiple times… once I’ve seen a snippet of her, and can visualize that she’s a “real” person, it just takes your journey (GP) to a whole new level. It makes us feel a connection to her. 👭

        Never before have we been able to “see” something like this unfold IRL from an educational perspective. It’s like a PBS/BBC documentary… and I might note that your narrative voice can hold its own against Sir David Attenborough’s. (😕 Yours is better in some ways, but he IS pretty special. 😊)

        But seriously, you’re aware that many of my comments are an attempt to peel back the layers. It’s my futile attempt to sway you so that you don’t break Shieldmaiden’s heart.

        (And if she IS on payroll, I want to apply for the next position of GP lead actress. I won’t be able to hold my liquor as well as you Europeans, but I’ll hold my own on the dance floor to make up for it. 💃)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The Shieldmaiden is real and no she is not on the payroll.

      2. michelle clark says:

        Dearest H.G. I read somewhere that you were forced into counseling? Is that legal to do to someone? Or, did the pros outweigh the cons, or something like that? I would not like to be forced into counseling. I hope it is what is best for you and hopefully has an end date?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not forced but rather it was a mutually agreeable scenario.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        You know that I was only teasing, HG.
        I know that Shieldmaiden is real.
        That’s why I’ve been so worried about her!!!

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        And HG, I did read the article as recommended. I haven’t the time right now to list all of my thoughts as I’m about to pop in to see some clients, but I do have much to say. (I’m sure that came as a big surprise.)

        I sense that Shieldmaiden is of a quality rarely found. I feel that you want to do your best to keep this lady in your life as, well it IS the GP and everything is golden, but you are very aware that she will bring many benefits into your life and you intend to cherish that as long as possible. (I hope I’m still on track here.)

        Anyway, with awareness and an incredible amount of hard work, I see this as a viable possibility. I’m rooting for you HG… cautious but cheering nonetheless.

  17. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    My mum had separate bedrooms …. hers grandiose, his looked like servants quarters ….haha
    My mum was always the “stiff cardboard”
    Excellent article, explains a lot
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Hello, Mrs. Bubbles… It is a universally-accepted agreement that the man always gets the smaller closet, but that stark of a difference in bedrooms?! Ouch.

      I bet he was a good man. If you don’t mind my asking, was he your biological father or a step-father? (Or just her main squeeze as everybody needs that too. 🍋😊)

      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear BurntKrispyKeen,
        Certainly lovely, I don’t mind at all
        He was my step dad (deceased)
        He “appeared good” … he was a covert
        He was jealous of me, Mr Bubbles and our kids…. in fact, he was jealous of everyone, he wanted mum all to himself
        He was a quiet man, trusted no one and had no friends

        He was happy to have his room stark, apparently
        One single bed, one chair, chest of drawers, cold lamp, plain drab curtains, tv and cheap bed linen
        Mum offered to paint his room it for him …he said “no” …..poor ol me, pity ploy ….martyr much
        I’ve slept in his room … it’s cold n creepy and he had lone wolf paintings that stared at you wherever you moved
        Now his room is full of mum’s clutter

        But he was the nicest quiet bloke you could ever meet ….haha
        Luv Bubbles 😘

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I understand now, Mrs. Bubbles. Thank you first taking the time to explain. 😊

        Those martyr-narcs are the worst!
        Add in that kind of creepiness… well, I’m glad that you and your family are now free.

        Have a blessed day.

      3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear BurntKrispyKeen,
        Thank you precious
        I still have my mum…. haha
        Hugs to you
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Shoot Bubbles, Mum is one too?

    2. windstorm says:

      Your comment reminded me of visiting a friend’s house when I was about 11 and being totally shocked to learn her parents shared a bed room. All the married couples in my extended family had separate bedrooms. It had never occurred to me that any married people slept together.
      My friends family also all ate together at the same table. Freaked me out that they were so odd!

      1. NarcAngel says:

        That was my experience also. One of them usually slept on the sofa, and they ate in the livingroom while we kids ate in the kitchen. They ate different food and watched tv, while in the kitchen, it was – no talking allowed, hurry up and eat, and then clean that kitchen! I was amazed in other houses.

        1. windstorm says:

          My mother was always proud that her generation allowed the children to eat at all when the adults were eating. Her generation grew up having to stand around hungry while the adults all ate. Only after every adult was finished did the children get to scavenge whatever was left over.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Big of them. My how times change. Now some parents are cooking 3 different meals for different dietary needs and then grabbing whatever is cold and left over for themselves.

      2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dearest Windstorm,
        Goodness gracious, how extraordinary and most fascinating
        My mum only shared the nuptial bed in the very the beginning of the marriage
        My step dad always had the piddly tiny room (they moved house a few times) .. it was more like the 3rd bedroom… the one that no one ever decorates … haha
        I only know of one other married person who sleeps apart from her hubby .. she’s a nurse shift worker
        Everyone I know sleeps together
        Maybe your houses are bigger in America than ours … haha
        My mum n step dad always had dinner on their laps in front of the tv
        I have never ever done that … I have always had dinner at the table with my family… we talk, interact, connect and play board games
        I also place the food in the centre of the table and everyone self serves .
        My kids wouldn’t have it any other way
        Mr Bubbles n I have always slept together
        I found my mum odd .. haha
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        Ps … I take it then you had separate bedrooms when married Windstorm, as that was the norm for you ?

        1. windstorm says:

          Yeah, I learned as I got older that the way you were was normal. But all the married couples I knew had at least one narc. My parents never slept in the same room in my lifetime (at least once I was big enough to remember).

          Our houses may be larger. I remember before they built a larger house, one of my uncles and a cousin had to sleep in a dark, damp cellar.

          We each made our own food whenever we were hungry and ate it wherever we wanted. I really was appalled at the idea of set meals times and no choice of food or eating location. That made meals into a prison-like ordeal to me!

        2. windstorm says:

          No, Bubbles.
          The norm for me was irrelevant. Pretzel’s parents slept together, so we had to also. I didn’t move out of the bedroom until the last year I lived with him. By then I actually set up a big tent in the yard and stayed outside.

          His family all ate together, too. And so we had to eat together. That fell apart once the kids got big enough to be obnoxious at the table. That got on his nerves, and I had no idea how to keep them in line, nor did I want to spoil my own meal trying. He gave up on the idea and just fussed about my lack of control from then on. Of course, that was no real change for me – except now I could sneak my food and eat in peace!

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Oh my Goodness, Narc Angel and Windstorm… It was the same with my great-grandparents. I remember my mother telling me that she remembers the men coming out of the field, washing up to eat while the women served. After THEIR needs were fully met, the women and children could eat.

        I guess that way-of-life is why the saying “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” originated? Poor little bebes had to soak in dirty-man water.
        The weakest goes last.

        Of course, one could argue that we’ve taken it to the other extreme by spoiling our kids too much. (Guilty as charged here.) But I’m glad that we have risen from that way of thinking (or, are at least getting better).

        For the record: Windstorm and I do have indoor plumbing just in case anybody was a wonderin’ ☺.

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Ahh, family supper time, Bubbles … When you look back, aren’t those some of the best memories? … Everyone seated around a table full of piping hot food, talking about their struggles for the day and their hopes for tomorrow?

        1. NarcAngel says:

          You watched Happy Days too? I used to view that show like someone who has no feet might view high heels. Fascinating and looks painful, but I still wanna try it just for shits and giggles.

      5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Windstorm, NarcAngel n BurntKrispyKeen

        Sleeping on sofas !
        Eating different foods!
        Eating in separate rooms!

        Your cousin slept in a dark damp cellar!
        Made your own food!
        No set dinner time!
        You slept in a tent outside!
        Scavenge !

        My mouth is agape!

        When I was young (before mum married) we ate the same meals altogether at the table, at set times
        Of course, we kids, were expected to “prep” all the food, set and clear the table, then do the dishes …. fair enough, mum worked
        However, back then, children were to be seen and not heard and we always had to ask “permission to be excused” from the table having had “elegant sufficiency” …then do our homework
        We never talked, let alone, about our struggles n hopes of tomorrow ..haha

        When our little cherubs brought friends over for meals, they couldn’t believe we ate at the table. They too, had to ask to leave the table and take their plates to the kitchen sink …..and if one hadn’t finished their meal ….you wait til the others did
        It’s called manners and respect!
        (Heaven forbid, this meant they had to talk to us longer 🤣)
        Our home has always been kid friendly and weve always done things as a family….. it’s been like Grand Central station ..haha ….it still is!

        When our kids were young, I asked them to list all the healthy dishes they liked me to cook
        It worked a treat (nothing was wasted, full bellies and happy contented kids)

        My brain sometimes cannot compute why some people actually have children ….if not to love care and cherish them

        Mr Bubbles n I dine together “at the table”, every night, with candles, (I luv candles) wine, ….no tv …. we just talk! Our kids luv coming over for dinner
        When we visit my mum … guess what… we eat at her dining table, I make sure of it

        I never had my own “decorated” bedroom… so I made sure our kids expressed their “individuality” in their own private domain
        My mother always made sure she had her own “palatial” bedroom…. us kids, nothing

        Maybe I’m the weird one … haha
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        Ps …. Mr Tudor…. what was your childhood/growing up like at meal times ?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Relatively formal.

        2. windstorm says:

          I’m glad you have had these great dining experiences. It sounds like something out of a movie to me. I remember when I was small, wondering why they made commercials and tv programs so unrealistic with families all sitting together at a table to eat and all talking together. It never occurred to me that they made them they way, because that was how most people lived. I’m glad you got to live in that world.

      6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I agree, Windstorm, that the warm homelife Mrs. Bubbles created sounds splendid. I tried to create a similar atmosphere with my kids as mealtime around the table has always been important to me. But on days when I work exceptionally late, I have been known to grab whatever I can find and toss it at whatever hungry kid is standing in front of me. (Just another reason to feel more shame. 😢)

        But I do love to cook, so I have fed a lot of now grown boys more biscuits and gravy than I can count. I never knew who my oldest son was going to drag home, but they always had a place at my table.

        I learnt that from my mother, as she enjoys feeding people… any random person who looks hungry, actually. She said that her grandmother (my great-grandparent who got to eat once her man left the table) always had a big spread of food. They were farmers, so fresh vegetables or recently slaughtered meat was always available. I think that’s why the country folks fared reasonably well during the Great Depression. They were already used to living without electricity or indoor plumbing. And food, well if you don’t know how to rummage a meal, you’re not a true Kentuckian.

        My father once told a story of when he was a young boy. His grandfather ordered him to get out there and bring back a rabbit to fry for supper. “Granddad gave me only one shell,” Dad said, “but I came back with his rabbit.”

        So yes, Bubbles, it is fascinating how everyone grew up differently, but it reminds me how we all wanted the same thing… that feeling of peace and comfort and love. Like Narc Angel said, we at least wanted to experience “Happy Days”… or The Fonz … we wanted to feel something nostalgic. 😉

        I tried to give a resemblance of that to my kids (not the Fonzie feeling) but I’m sure I failed in many ways at bringing that 1950’s vibe of family. Still, they know I tried, and I hope that they will try even harder with our next generation.

        Before I jump, I have to add that I love Mrs. Bubbles’ romantic dinners with Mr. Bubbles. Every wise woman knows that the glow of a candle is the most flattering light. (Whoever invented fluorescent lighteng could NOT have been a woman!) I am divorced, Bubbles, after a 31 year marriage, so I miss those moments. (Not that I still couldn’t as he’d like to get back together, but you know what I mean… that time together is so important.) So keep on enjoying that man, Bubbles! And do keep us posted on how you two are doing?

        1. WhoCares says:


          “Whoever invented fluorescent lighteng could NOT have been a woman!”

          Never a truer word spoken.

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear Windstorm n BurntKrispyKeen,
      Thank you lovelies for your stories, it’s so interesting all the different backgrounds
      Farm life should be experienced by all kids in some way or another
      Thankfully, my kids did get to experience this as my mum had a property with goats, sheep, chickens, ducks, cats, bantams and fish in the dam
      Mum did her own spinning n weaving from the sheep
      Mum always feed the animals first … my step dad had to wait u til she was ready
      He got tired of waiting, so he started to cook his own meals
      He then cooked for her permanently after that … haha

      Windstorm .. being a teacher, how do most kids today, dine at home, you’d get to hear all sorts .. haha

      Fluro lighting is mans curse to women … seriously … that’s why I have lamps n candles 🕯.. haha… especially in the boudoir
      Also, a great tip for we mature ladies … never get on top of a man, our face wrinkles droop, always lie on your back… looks like you’ve had a face lift and you always look stunning
      If you don’t believe me … get a mirror .. haha
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      Ps .. Mr Tudor, formal dining is meant for adults, not kids … sad to hear

      1. windstorm says:

        No, kids don’t talk to me hardly ever about their homelife or how they have meals. My school is in a very poor area and parents discourage their children from talking about the home. Usually when a student brings up their home it is because they are afraid to go back to it.

        I do know we have a program that sends easily heated canned food and snacks home on Fridays, for those students who often go hungry at home. This way they have things they can fix for themselves and their little brothers and sisters. And when I work morning hall duty, there’s a whole horde of students rushing down the hall to the cafeteria on Monday mornings to get the free breakfast. We’ve always figured school is the main place they get hot meals.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Thats so sad, especially in it’s visibility. There are many who will think or say that their situation is miles above that even in it’s dysfunction because their kids are so much better off in living in a better home or area, having access to better things and opportunities due to increased financial means, are provided healthy meals and medical care… and yet some of the children from those homes will attend well dressed, and fed, but emotionally empty, anxious about what awaits them at home, and quietly building and keeping up a facade of their own. Invisible. Tragic both ways.

          1. windstorm says:

            That is so true. We can feed them and love them and refer them for counseling, but that’s all we can really do. I used to think some of those girls almost had “doomed” tattooed on their foreheads.

            I’ll never forget a particularly smart 8th grader (13) who was in my French class. I asked her what classes she’d signed up to take the next year in high school. She told me, “Oh, I’m not going. Daddy wants me to stay home and take care of the baby.” I said, “well, you have to go to school till your 16. That’s a state law.” She said, “He’s going to tell them that he’s homeschooling me.”

            He had that right, so her schooling effectively ended at 13. That was 15 years ago and it still rips at my heart. And that’s just the one I knew about. How many other girls have the odds stacked so against them by the people who should love and care for them most?

      2. NarcAngel says:

        You made me laugh. It’s true if you look down into a mirror to see what they see it will horrify you, but the problem with being on your back is that your face looks better but your boobs slide over the edge into your armpits. Keeping your arms at your sides to keep the boobs afloat makes you appear frigid. What to do, what to do, ……… well you can be on top but throw your head back like your enjoying the ride of your life (you should be-you’re in control) and thats good for both of you, or be on top but face the other way. He enjoys the view and you can make all the faces you want lol. But really? I say fuck it all and let loose – thats what makes it good. They just want you to be naked and at the party. When you enjoy yourself it makes them feel like its all them (let them think it) and the glow you have after means a shower and a little lipstick has you off to dinner. I agree with candles or low lighting though. Thanks for the laugh Bubbles.

      3. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Bubbles and NA, I’m laughing so hard at your “beauty” suggestions during sex! Thanks for making my day.

      4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Windstorm and NarcAngel,
        That is so tragic … yet I know it happens
        Sadly, schools are taking on way too much these days, filling the void where parents are failing and a lot of these poor blighters will be tomorrow’s bullies and narcs or turnout replicas of their parents
        Hopefully a large number will see the light and make a go of it

        As little tackers, we were considered poor and the govt provided a free schooling system for us ….. but at least mum fed us. I was the only one who didn’t have a dad, everyone had both parents.
        Now look at it !
        I remember eating a lot of jam sandwiches and looked forward to the little bottle of milk we were given in the classroom every day
        Teachers don’t get paid enough along with nurses ….. I don’t know how you do it ….. my daughter’s friend is a teacher and she’s already stressed to the max with all the pressure. Thank you Windstorm

        Yes, I totally agree gorgeous one, the boobies do spread …looks a bit like the Sahara desert with a couple of undulating sand dunes after a dust storm ….however, Mr Bubbles eyesight is a bit fuzzie without his glasses, thank goodness…… we’re not there for long … haha
        Mr Bubbles is not too fussed about my lipstick, he just wants another open inspection of my real estate …haha
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        Ps … thank you Sweetest Perfection … Mr Bubbles n I resemble a comedy act trying to play “Twister” …. thank goodness for subdued lighting …haha

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        “Never get on top of a man, our face wrinkles droop, always lie on your back…” – Bubbles

        Now, WhoCares… THOSE are words to live by! I got that position covered Bubbles, but now Narc Angel’s got me all worried about where my boobs are going to land. ❔ I’m just gonna take her advice and let loose… whenever I find one worth *throwing my head back* for, hoping that it really will be *the time of my life.* (Narc Angel, those visuals you described are circling in my head, helping to fuel my “badness.” I hope it doesn’t translate to more impromtu posting. You and Renarde really got me going today! Sadly, it takes very little.)

        Bubbles, I enjoyed learning about your Mum’s little piece of country paradise. I would enjoy learning to spin wool as I’ve been tempted to ask K if she’d conduct a knitting class, but I know meeting up is not likely. Still, it is just nice having this interaction here.

        Windstorm’s young student broke my heart. That is certainly a childhood cut too short. I also hear of how the meal at school has become the best (or only) source of nutrition for many children… a fact all too sad.

        I have never taken the oppprtunity, Ms. Windstorm, to say “thank you.” Thank you for your service in teaching and guiding the youth of Kentucky. I look back at my own school years and can fondly recall those who took the time to take me under their wing. It’s caring teachers like you, WS, both wise and beautiful, who inspire more children than you realize… in ways you’ll never know.

        1. windstorm says:

          Thank you. Thsats one of the benefits of teaching. We do impact students lives – hopefully mainly in positive ways.

  18. Lou says:

    Good article.
    HG, I think this is going to be one of the most difficult points for SM to accept.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. We shall see what happens. I recognise what I have to do.

      1. MB says:

        HG, when I read this article, I understand that the narcissism drives the REJECTION of intimacy. You do not say that narcissists are INCAPABLE of intimacy. Rejection would be instinctual in the L and MR and most likely in the G. But, as I read, I got the feeling that you as an Ultra could consciously allow yourself to attach to a source if you so desired. You are not incapable of attaching on a deeper level. Is that what you mean when you say you recognize what you have to do?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Read Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery.

      2. EmP says:

        Hi HG, congratulations on your new romantic relationship! A question for you, if I may.

        You have repeatedly spoken about how important it is for narcissists to maintain control. I was wondering…would you be willing, in the context of your relationship with SM, to give up control – at least to a certain extent?

        Or would you be afraid of making yourself ‘vulnerable’ and, potentially, get disappointed? Not that I think she would do anything to hurt you to be honest..


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you EmP, that is appreciated.

          I do not see that there is any issue with regard to control. I accept logically that I have a need for control and therefore it must also follow that this need may arise in a manner which could cause conflict within the relationship. It is at that juncture one would have to see whether I am able to relinquish a degree of control or not.

          1. EmP says:

            Understood. Thank you for clarifying!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          3. Kathleen says:

            Isn’t this the point where the relationship could start going sideways? I’m somewhat concerned about this. Like what if it spirals into a very bad place. And what if she found out about all of this going on -the instagram etc. It’s probably not too likely but… I guess I put myself in her shoes and think I would feel like I was the science project.
            I may have missed some of the details given regarding this.

      3. Laurie says:

        Good luck Mr. Tudor…….I have a strong feeling that the Shieldmaiden will love you regardless of when and how you eventually decide to ‘come clean’ with her.
        She will be shocked no doubt about it……..but I so hope this relationship is a turning point for you. I don’t know you and we will never meet…..but I so very much want you to find happiness with SM.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Laurie.

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        “I accept logically that I have a need for control and therefore it must also follow that this need may arise in a manner which could cause conflict within the relationship.” – HG Tudor

        I admire your wisdom and your willingness here. I respect your approach. The fact that you’ve worked so hard exhibits a uniqueness that will carry you far. I have no doubt that when you deem the time as accurate, you will reveal yourself in a manner that will be welcomed and accepted. I know what I would want to hear if a gentleman were to reveal such to me, but I imagine that you have already worked this out, playing it in your head… probably more than a few times. 💯

        Again, best wishes to you, HG.

  19. J.G says:

    Hello, H.G.Tudor.
    When reading this post I only see fear, and insecurity and this is evident because not having or having this kind of feelings and trait is a double work the fact of having to also imitate and fake the affection and enjoyment in intimacy. If it is neither needed nor felt.
    Now that I’ve read this post, some things are clearer.
    I think you don’t like intimacy, for several reasons you mention such as the small possibility of some kind of bonding on your part. Although this is difficult because you don’t have this kind of feeling.
    But on the other hand is the fear that you don’t mention that you can be discovered.
    It’s easier to play in a single sentimental plane than to continue trying your luck in intimacy and being devalued. I suppose in the case of some dysfunctionality in intimate relationships. The guilt will always be of the victim.
    And then in the triangulations surely it will also be another penalty.
    It is surprising how the narcissist plays and manipulates the minds of his victims and makes us see things that may not even happen in reality. Who is in the room of a possible triangulation? All are mere assumptions of our manipulated minds…

  20. Kellie Mccoey says:

    Maybe I have intimacy issues. I struggle with my husband yet no problems with the narcissist. Even when he was tender with me it didn’t bother me. Maybe I instinctively knew it was bull shit. I could fell him taking it all out on me. It was angry but I liked it. Like being punched with a penis. Sorry if it’s too much information.

    1. Honey Bee says:

      You might be fearful-avoidant. Really craving an intimate connection, but once you are almost there you detach out of fear. To a narcissist the push-pull behaviour is almost a game, to a fearful-avoidant it is not a game. Some say fearful-avoidants are even more difficult in relationships than dismissive-avoidants, which makes some sense, because they really have two genuine faces were the narcissist uses two masks. The attachment and the detachment (when afraid of getting hurt when opening up) aren’t acts.

      Months after my narcissist went back to his country of origin he still seemed very attached, which I honestly never expected, because I had known about the other women almost from the beginning. Then one day (more than 4 months after he had left) I looked at his picture and all my feelings for him seemed to have evaporated. What was going on here? I knew my feelings for him had been genuine, but I never really believed his feelings were genuine. And somehow the tables had turned. I realized that after all those months I started doubting his insincerity and that is why I detached from the feelings I had for him. I find it very hard to open up beyond a certain point and I never really opened up with my narcissist. A blessing in disguise.

      Narcissists prefer co-dependents, because the co-dependent will always make another effort and so the narcissist can remain the strong, independent one, pretending to have no needs. The narcissist receives without having to ask.
      The fearful-avoidant can be attracted to the narcissist because it allows them to make efforts and love as much as they want without the fear of it being reciprocated by the narcissist.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Not all narcissists prefer co-dependents.

        1. Honey Bee says:

          Agree. There is not a rule that doesn’t have an exception and it depends on what one defines as “co-dependent”.

      2. nunya biz says:

        I relate to some of what you are saying Honey Bee. I feel that in the right sturdy situation things work very well for me.

  21. Kathleen says:

    HG- what will you actually say (or do) when the new woman you’re entangling (instagram) asks you where the relationship is going? (Asking for a friend) 😂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I will tell her the truth, it is going onwards and upwards, because it is.

      1. StrongerWendy says:

        HG, as discussed in previous comments regarding your recent BBC interview, the effect on the empath is a huge part of the dynamic that isn’t mentioned enough. It would be very educational if, in addition to the details of your new relationship, you also detail the devaluation and disengagenent with your most recent IPPS, Kim, once you had SM secured. A unique window into how a narcissist banishes one and moves to another so brutally. How did you do it, how did she react, is she still trying to contact you, etc. Thank you for your consideration.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Noted. Watch this space or rather The Asylum of the Grotesque.

          1. StrongerWendy says:

            Interesting answer.

          2. Lou says:

            Sometimes I get the impression that book will be the real confessions of HG Tudor.
            And I think he has already confessed a lot!

          3. StrongerWendy says:

            Apparently it is all perspective…so nothing is real? 😉

          4. Lou says:

            I do not understand your comment, StrongerWendy.
            Would you mind explaining it to me?

          5. StrongerWendy says:

            I was relating it to the word “real” in “real confessions” As HG has said, his perspective is real to him (but may not be to us) and our perspective is real to us (but may not be to him).

          6. Lou says:

            Oh, now I get it. Thanks SW.

        2. I ❤️ You says:

          I am hoping that since he is using a new dynamic with the SM that he hopefully used a new dynamic with the one he recently disengage from.

          1. StrongerWendy says:

            As HG said “Hope is a treacherous bitch”

  22. Iolanda Velosa says:

    Uau, what a great article. Thank you Tudor

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and you are welcome.

  23. Kim e says:

    I was told when we have sex it is just an act. No cuddling because that causes emotions which you know I don’t do.
    Yet after “the act only” there was cuddling initiated by him.
    HG this was purely for control correct?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Assuming this person is a narcissist, yes and to gain fuel by way of your response.

      1. Kim e says:

        HG. Yes. This was my MMRN.
        Can you please clarify something? You stated to gain fuel by way of my response. My response to what? The fact that he hung around and cuddled after saying that was showing emotions?
        Thanks. Hope your day goes well

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes to his behaviour towards you.

  24. E. B. says:

    Infatuation is sometimes mistaken for love. Since infatuation is a chemical process in our brain, I like to think of it as a temporary phase governed by my ET, very similar to those days when we –women- are having our period. There is a hormone production. I am oversensitive and my rational thinking is diminished for a couple of days.
    When the infatuation phase is gone (it can take several months), my rational thinking is back. I can see more clearly who I am dealing with and then I feel I am in a position to make a decision if I want to start building an emotional bond with him or not.
    Being able to control it could be a narcissistic trait, although it helps.

  25. E. B. says:

    IMO, this is a very important article to understand why narcissists avoid bonding with their IPs. Some professionals in the psychology field seem to be convinced that narcissists reject their IPs first (devalue and/or discard) to avoid the pain of being rejected. There is some misleading information about narcissists posted by people with a degree in psychology.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  26. Supernova says:

    No, the patterns of behavior that I have mentioned do not coincide, of course he applies campaigns of all kinds with his victims but he remains exposed and mocked, fabricating a perception of others who are already aware that a pattern of behavior is repeated (he can not to be in conflict always and it is the other partner’s fault) I do not really understand why I would prefer to wither with his victim. Who prefers a device that does not work?

  27. WiserNow says:

    So, narcissists can’t tolerate intimacy and they need to reject attachment in order to ‘survive’. This sounds like a very strong drive that would be very resistant to change. As HG describes, “It is an instinctive and necessary response.”

    How is your instinctual need to reject attachment currently progressing in terms of your relationship with the Shieldmaiden?

    Are you still in the golden period where you are finding it easier to be intimate with her because you want to create the illusion to ensnare her?

    Or are you consciously trying to change your instinctual rejection of attachment because you ‘want’ to be more genuinely intimate?

    I would like to know if you are resisting the well-worn path of your narcissistic ways. And if so, what does it make you feel about your own ‘survival’?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. I feel no need for rejection.
      2. There is no illusion being created. I am of course of significant brilliance anyway and have avoided utilising the mirroring that one would ordinarily deploy, by way of example.
      3. I have altered some behaviours, yes, thus it must follow that this has meant that the well-worn path of narcissistic ways has been resisted. So far.

      1. MB says:

        HG, but do you ever feel a need for rejection during any Golden Period? The true test may not come until there is a devaluation trigger to be addressed.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It can happen but not with me.

      2. WiserNow says:

        Thank you for your detailed response, HG.

        It sounds like your relationship with the Shieldmaiden is progressing very well so far. It’s great you have altered some of your behaviours. Well done!

        It’s also promising that you’re not creating an illusion. That sounds like you are not deceiving her and are being genuine. I hope this continues. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you HG 🙂

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

          1. Twilight says:


            I am curious as to you have said you do not feel love, yet you have told her you love her…..that is a lie. Unless you are feeling something or mean in it the context of what love is.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Where did I state that I said I love her?

          3. MB says:

            HG, When she said “I love you.” You stated that you reciprocated.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I reciprocated, I made a corresponding response.

          5. MB says:

            Which was?

            “Reciprocated” to us means “I love you too Shieldmaiden”. Anything else would be awkward if that was the first time she said it especially.

          6. Twilight says:

            That you did HG and I took it as you said “love” .
            Yet you know my definition of what “love” means, so with that I am sure I understand what you meant.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            I pictured him saying: I agree, and you are welcome.
            (Like he does here when we tell him he’s brilliant)

            I know that’s not what happened or she’d have taken a powder, but I pictured it.

          8. MB says:

            NA, I noticed that he declined to comment. Maybe he is saving it for the article. Maybe he said, “I love (your fuel) too.” The “your fuel” part being slurred so as to be indistinguishable from the expected response. Ha ha

          9. Kim e says:

            MB & NA. You girls need to take your show on the road!!!! You two definitely brighten my days

          10. MB says:

            Kim e, thank you for saying so! If I’ve brightened one person’s day, my day has not been wasted.

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Kim E
            Haha. It’s all MB – I’m just the straight man. Never lose your ability to laugh.

          12. windstorm says:

            Pretzel would do the Indiana Jones thing and when I’d say, “I love you,”. He’d say, “I know.”

          13. NarcAngel says:

            Haha -I know. True story. The first time my husband said “I love you”’, I responded with: “You’re growing on me”. Then we both laughed and he said I was an asshole so it was all good, but the truth is, I was not ready to say it and that was my way of avoiding it without hurting him.

          14. Lou says:

            NA, personal question for you: do you think your husband has loved you or loves you more than you love him?
            As always, I understand if you don’t want to answer.

          15. NarcAngel says:

            Hi Lou
            I don’t think so. We have checked in along the way. By that I mean we have discussed how far in we have been at any given point, asked each other if we want to continue on or have developed other feelings or goals that don’t warrant staying together. For instance, a few years in I asked if he had changed his views on children. I told him that I had not, and if he had some view that I would “come around” to that, it was not the case and he should absolutely pursue that with someone else. Words weren’t really needed (but he did provide them) as his horrified look said it all lol. We do not show as a physically demonstrative couple to others. There is affection (more shown in the things we do for each other). He says that he has experienced a freedom with me that he does not think would be possible with anyone else (his interests are very different from mine and I support him in some ways but am not involved directly). That his needs are met for the most part. He appreciates that I do not own or smother him. That my sense of humour is in line with his and he is content with our arrangement and the residual benefits lol. I feel the same, so on we continue. It’s not a typical relationship, has not been without some issues, and my guess is that it would not be fulfilling enough for most, but it works for us. He has high narc traits also but is not a narcissist. I believe he is telling the truth when he says he is content with the way things are.

          16. Kim e says:

            Sounds like heaven to me NA. Hope it lasts a lifetime for you both…….or until it is mutually decided that it wont.

          17. NarcAngel says:

            Kim E
            Thank you. We used to say we stayed together for the dogs, but now they’re both gone, so we’re in new territory lol.

          18. MB says:

            NA, now that the dogs are gone, it’s time to get that 🦜 you’ve always dreamed of! Ha ha

          19. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, my ex (well, one of my exes) and I used to have shared custody of our dog. It actually worked quite well until I started dating and he used the excuse of picking the dog to show up in my place at odd times to ruin my date. He and I are still friends though, he still calls me love. I just wanted to let you know there’s another option although you and your husband seem to have everything figured out quite well.

          20. windstorm says:

            So sorry to hear you lost your last dog. I know how devastating it is when you lose a dog. I hope you rescue another one to fill both your lives with joy.

            You might find amusement in my daughter’s new puppy. They had an old dog die in early December. As if there’s not enough chaos in this house with 4 kids 6 n under and a new baby coming, they got a Newfoundland puppy to keep their Westie company. The big dufus is just turned 4 months and already over 40 pounds! It’s funny to watch him play with my Thibaut who is nearly 3 times smaller and wicked fast!

          21. Lou says:

            Thanks a lot for your reply NA. Your relationship with your husband is interesting to me because I know it’s a non conventional one which has lasted long and continues to last.
            Thanks again.

      3. Caroline says:

        This is what the Greater is doing/not doing now with me… and quite similar to his “take” as well.

      4. Jenna says:

        Hi HG,

        You are not mirroring and therefore not creating an illusion. I remember you responding once to Clarece that mirroring is mostly subconscious/automatic (I don’t remember the word you used). So, if you are not mirroring, isn’t it difficult to go against your natural tendency?
        Also, not mirroring means what? Not liking the things she likes just to win her over? We always knew you had your own likes. Does that mean you used to hide them before? If so, why? Your likes are interesting – depeche mode, golf, reading, writing etc. Why hide them with previous ipps’s? This is something I failed to understand all these years. Thanks.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          One does not necessarily hide one’s own likes but rather adopts the interests, likes etc of the target when mirroring. The Shieldmaiden and I have shared interests in certain areas of music (we also have musical differences), political debate, travel, business, history, academic and sporting achievement, football, film and literature to name but a few. None of that is mirroring.

          1. Jenna says:

            So when you “adopt(s) the interests, likes etc of the target when mirroring”, does that mean it is a very conscious act? As a greater, it may be a calculated act (the preparation that you usually do). For midrangers and lessers, perhaps they do not do it consciously. Do they do it at all? “I am empty, I show you what you want to see” – I never felt that from the mmrn. I never felt like I was looking at myself. He is very different than me.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Greater – mixture of instinct but mainly calculation. Lesser and MidRange – instinct.

          3. Jenna says:

            Thanks HG. But I never really felt that any narcs I know ‘mirror’ me. This is something that really confuses me til this day. I know some family narcs too. I didn’t realize they were narcs until at least a year after joining the blog.

          4. Lou says:

            What?! You don’t like Einsturzende Neubauten, Hammerstein, Slipknot, Acid Drinkers and Overkill?!

            You are too soft for The Shieldmaiden, HG. Depeche Mode will be your downfall with her.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I like some of EN.

          6. Lou says:

            I know MB. I enjoy reading your comments and your sense of humour (an your “outrageous flirting”). My question to HG was “triggered” by your comment but I was not thinking of you specifically. It was more a “general” question.
            I actually asked HG to ignore it in a second comment because I knew the answer already but it did not work out.

          7. Lou says:

            Ooops, that was not the right place for this comment!

  28. Supernova says:

    Mr. Tudor: Why would a mid-level narcissist reach the limit of even exposing himself to try to recover society, even when he has closed all classes were positive or negative? I speak of reasons other than those already known negative supply, defamatory campaigns, regain control, control or superiority, among others of a list, but in this rare case I do not mean the named, I mean a strange palpable emotional “dependence” , although we know that there is no attachment because you have taught us this way, it is a kind of S. Narcissistic Stockholm since it has been exposed, there will no longer be a supply of any kind, its Achilles heel has been discovered, it is now in evidence and behavioral behavior pattern tells me that I should apply silent treatment because it is a mid-range and come back when other techniques have to be practiced … but not in this strange case of self-immolation, in which there seems to be an erosion, a constant decadence and a point of no return, in fact becoming a mockery for viewers through their networks, office and family or friends .. until they stay dry and in evidence (for the same, no for the empathy) until a new relationship begins again and uses the pattern already known by the trinity, until reaching the devaluation / discard / shelf phase, which repeats the previous, remains stubborn, resourceless and withered. we know that they are the great strangers there lies their success in the ignorance by others, but delight us with their knowledge … (some of us only know their legs) jajajajaja I found this article safe increases my knowledge ( WHY YOU SHOULD FEAR THE SMEAR ) ( https://narcsite.com/2018/11/07/why-you-should-fear-the-smear-7/ ) but with this raised above is proven his aversion for the inferiors of class. Once again it is evident because some are part of the elite and others are a gross and clumsy imitation, even within their class

  29. Kathleen says:

    This is a good article! The basics.
    It’s the simple reason why a relationship with a narcissist can’t ever work out with someone who seeks real love.
    I early on felt the coldness. The robotic feel of the learned intimacy i was shown. There seemed to be glimmers of real passion but that was likely the narc just feeling power. Not true bonding. Words just rang hollow to my heart. The ongoing actions never synced up for long. It was just means to an end.
    My intuition knew/felt it but I stayed too long trying to figure it out. Like 3.5 out of 4 years- were working it out years. Ugh- and painful. The narcissist could never answer questions about “us” – these questions i now see were probably just seen as challenge fuel and after asking for input or status-my treatment would suffer. My inquiries and etc just pushed the buttons – her mind heard..‘malfunctioning appliance’ – ‘warning’. Get her under control or dispose.

    she once said- we can’t live together because I don’t think you trust me. Which I didn’t but I was willing as a last effort to try to GET closer and try harder! But What she must have needed was a total rube-oblivious to the games. Never questioning and dependent.
    Sad. There really is no way to get through to them and offer devotion of love/support/caring? They don’t need that? They just need FUEL? ⛽️

    1. Supernova says:

      There really is no way to get through to them and offer devotion of love
      – No
      They don’t need that? They just need FUEL?
      – Yes

    2. Supernova says:

      There really is no way to get through to them and offer devotion of love
      They don’t need that?
      – No
      They just need FUEL?
      – Yes

  30. Leslie says:

    Just an alternative perspective….

    If you fail to plug in your appliance, if you fail to put petrol in your automobile, if you fail to water the lawn, it all stops returning what is expected.

    A narc uses intense fraudulent affection to generate a strong victim attachment.

    Intermittent/inconsistent reinforcement is now injected into the relationship by the narcissist (unpredictable positive responses) alongside escalating devaluation. This is used by the narcissist to establish fear in and control of the victim.

    The victim is confused and struggles to determine what pattern of behaviours will regain the consistent loving responses. There is nothing the victim can do, except they don’t know that. Reality for the victim is now destabilised and trauma based responses are required for survival.

    The victim/appliance has been deliberately unplugged, left without petrol, and unwatered.

    The plan from the outset appears to be to create a failed appliance. Therefore, saying the appliance has “failed you” is inaccurate. You want a failed appliance. Your entire agenda is predicated on causing the appliance to fail.

    It is your ability to cause failure of the appliance, the thing you envy, that somehow seems to momentarily give you a sense of power that drives back a steady state of internal discomfort.

    1. WiserNow says:

      Your comment is very interesting and it made me think about some of the points you raise, especially when you say… “You want a failed appliance. Your entire agenda is predicated on causing the appliance to fail.”

      You made me think about how a narcissist’s behaviour is very contradictory. Firstly, they ‘want’ and even need an appliance in order to get their much-needed fuel. So, on the one hand, they work to mimic emotions, look for certain traits and qualities, get excited when they find a suitable victim and have a drive to ‘seduce’. The way they behave, anyone would think they couldn’t survive without an ‘appliance’. They actually fear the prospect of not having one to draw fuel from.

      On the other hand, they reject intimacy and attachment, they deliberately destablilise and abuse the appliance, and they work hard to stay ‘superior’ and to devalue the appliance and, like you say, they want to make the appliance fail, by undermining them, causing confusion and a loss of self-esteem. They cause the erosion of the qualities that attracted them to the appliance in the first place.

      It’s such a push and pull dynamic. They ‘need’ empathic people and yet they do everything they can to devalue and demoralise them. Is it because being needy is a weakness and they despise the empathic person for ‘reminding’ them how needy they really are?

      Human attachment is a threat to them. They hoover an appliance and then punish that appliance for trying to connect with them in a genuine way. They want connection without attachment and this creates all sorts of dysfunctional results.

      1. WhoCares says:


        I find yours and Leslie’s comments of particular interest.


        “You want a failed appliance. Your entire agenda is predicated on causing the appliance to fail.”


        “The way they behave, anyone would think they couldn’t survive without an ‘appliance’. They actually fear the prospect of not having one to draw fuel from.

        On the other hand, they reject intimacy and attachment, they deliberately destablilise and abuse the appliance, and they work hard to stay ‘superior’ and to devalue the appliance and, like you say, they want to make the appliance fail, by undermining them, causing confusion and a loss of self-esteem. They cause the erosion of the qualities that attracted them to the appliance in the first place.”

        These thoughts remind me of the comparison of “built-in obsolescence” of real appliances, devices and electronics.
        That manufacturing is now a world of devices that are designed to fail to support further consumerism. Like the narc; ensuring that their appliance fails – they ALWAYS have an out. To justify (at least to themselves) moving on to another appliance.

        1. WiserNow says:

          That’s an interesting way to see it WhoCares. It makes me think that the reasons behind “built-in obsolescence” in manufacturing could be a bit similar to why a narc needs to reject attachment.

          In manufacturing, appliances are deliberately made to fail or be upgraded in a certain amount of time so that the business can sell more appliances in the future and have more assurance that their sales and revenue will be maintained and the business will remain successful.

          In the case of a narcissist, they can’t attach because they need an escape chute. They couldn’t, or never learned to, attach in a healthy and trustworthy way with their primary caregivers. Either they don’t know how or they can’t trust a ‘real’ attachment. For them to ‘survive’ and remain ‘successful’, it is safer, or more natural, to resist attachment and to hold their ‘appliance’ at arm’s length. Also, in order to maintain their false self, they need more than just one appliance. If that one appliance fails, escapes, dies or is unavailable, they need to have other appliances to rely on, since they can’t rely on their own inner ‘real self’ to sustain them when there is no ‘fuel’ from outside sources.

          1. WhoCares says:


            Yes, I find it to be a useful analogy.
            And you said it way better than me!

      2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        This comment really resonates with me and accurately describes my relationship with Piano Boy.

        1. WiserNow says:

          I’m glad it resonates with you Fuel on the Shelf. Sometimes when commenting here on the blog, I feel like I’m thinking out loud and it helps me to sort out my own thoughts and better understand my own feelings. It’s good to know that my feelings are similar to how others feel, so thank you for that.

          I’ve been reading your comments about Piano Boy and I feel for you, Fuel on the Shelf. I think he has you ‘locked in’ within a dead-end situation. I hope you don’t mind me saying that. He’s giving you crumbs of comfort when he feels like it and keeping you hanging on. Perhaps you are both keeping each other hanging on. I think you deserve better than that. You’re a smart woman with your own life. You can see through his push and pull contradictions and mind-games. It’s just a constant case of rinse and repeat with him.

          To be honest with you, I also can’t help thinking of his wife. She is raising his babies while he is cheating on her with you. He is leading both you and her on and giving each of you a raw deal. He doesn’t deserve either of you. Again, I hope you don’t mind me saying that. I don’t mean to offend or blame you at all. I understand how these situations can arise and take hold.

          It’s a tough situation and I remember reading that you don’t want to give him up because you feel having what you have with him is better than not having anything. Do you still feel that way as time goes on? I know how emotional thinking can keep you stuck. However, you have awareness as well as emotional thinking. You have sounded frustrated, saying that his behaviour is eerie, difficult to decipher, push and pull etc. Do you think the crumbs of comfort are worth all that?

  31. TY says:

    This is so sad but very illuminating. This is the perfect part two to “Attachment is the Seat of Misery”. Thank you for detailing this so clearly.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  32. Supernova DE says:

    As an IPSS I had my share of false intimacy from the MMRN during seduction and throughout the elongated golden period (intermittent but potent during that time).

    However, after a time, and after I misbehaved repeatedly, I felt the disconnection of the intimacy. The mask fell away from him and he made no effort to maintain the nice guy facade. Much like you describe for the IPPS in this article, affection became more perfunctory. Sexual intimacy became robotic etc.

    While I understand that IPSS have “corrective” devaluations and not a full on devaluation period as the IPPS, I still wonder at the change I saw and felt (and others here have expressed as well).

    Why would this change occur for the IPSS? I wonder if it is the less functional (MRN or Lesser) narc holding onto poorly functioning/fiesty appliance for fuel needs vs. erosion of the overall relationship via the narcissistic dynamic vs. being painted black but still having interaction.

    Long post and question and I appreciate your thoughts. I acknowledge the answer may be subject to specific dynamics. This is a point of confusion for me and I will consider consulting if you think it necessary, you know my background situation by now from past consults.
    Thank you -SDE

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You were most likely receiving a Disengagement Devaluation owing to your repeated ‘malfunction’.

      1. Supernova DE says:

        Would a Disengagement Devaluation for an IPSS last a long time? Weeks? Months? I feel this went on for months at a time.
        If this was the case, how long after the disengagement is the narc likely to feel this wound heal?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Weeks at the maximum.

  33. JustEmpath says:

    Hey HG,

    do you think it is possible that a narcissist doesn’t want to have an IPPS, instead he prefers having one night stands or different IPSS he strings along without commiting to them?

    My ex is a Mid range in his fourties, he got divorced 2 years ago and since the divorce his acts like a student with no obligations. He has friends 20 years younger than him, he parties with them, he doesnt have new IPPS for sure, he seems to operate only by having short term relations (a few weeks) with secondary sources and/or one night stands. When he is bored – no secondary sources on board he tries to hoover exes (with no response).

    I started to think that having an IPPS isn’t his goal at all. At least it looks like that when you watch it from the distance.

    Is it poasible?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Lesser and Mid-Range strive for a primary source (either non-intimate or intimate). Greater prefer to have a primary source but can manage for some time without one. The absence of one in your scenario means

      1. There is one but you do not know it (IPPS) ;
      2. There is one but you do not know it (NIPPS)
      3. He is without IPPS or NIPPS and is managing on supplementary sources (secondary and tertiary) but this will not be sustainable without problems arising from a fuel gap.

      1. JustEmpath says:

        He is online attention whoering almost 24 hours and when he goes out, he parties with some kid friends who post tone of pictures on social media and there is no girlfriend with him. Soooo it looks like he wasn’t able to ensnare anyone who will meet his fuel needs as an IPPS. Or (more possible) noone wants him right now 🙂

        He has some problems with money ( divorce isn’t a cheap thing), he loses his charm (oh, ageing) and can’t hold job for long… and he dreams about 20yo models who don’t give a f$&* about him. Life sucks!

  34. Kellie Mccoey says:

    I’m missing him alot today. I will never reach out to him again but I’m needing him right now.

  35. Fuel on the Shelf says:

    This article makes so much sense to me and describes the patterns with Piano Boy. It explains the hyper-sexuality and then the barren friend zone periods of time.

    Does mid range usually resurrect the intimacy though? I notice the pattern with him but then he will lash out at me and say things like:

    “You are getting too close again. I am getting uncomfortable again”

    “Our feelings are disproportionate”

    “I love you in the way I love you”

    So fucking eerie. All of it.

    1. Mary says:

      Fuel On the Shelf / Gabrielle:

      Not sure if you are familiar with this song, but it perfectly captures the narc dance and all of the push/pull emotional turmoil they cause. For me, there is something just irresistible about a guy who I can’t figure out. It’s the smokescreen and illusion that compelled me to persist with my online narc, the feeling ready to give up, then that rush of “oh, maybe he does care!” just sucked me back in constantly. The trauma bond was ultimately what it was, and the emotional thinking as HG and other readers have said is often when keeps us stuck. Anyway, here is the song.



      I turned my back
      You were gone in a flash
      Like you always do
      You’ve always gone off somewhere else
      And when the phone rang
      And I thought it was you
      And I sprung like a kid who just got out of school
      But it’s almost always never you, never you
      I screamed like a child
      My insides went wild

      When I’m alone with you
      You make me feel, you make me feel
      When I’m alone with you
      You are the one, you are the one

      And when I reach out and I only grab air
      And it kills me to think that you never did care
      And it’s hopeless
      You’ve always run off somewhere else
      I’m throwing a tantrum
      Why are you such a phantom?

      When I’m alone with you
      You make me feel, you make me feel
      When I’m alone with you
      You are the one, you are the one

      Remind me of home
      When you’re around me
      Next time you leave
      Don’t go without me
      No, don’t go

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Well damn. That definitely struck a chord.

      2. Presque Vu says:

        FOTS, you are the one I want to help most. Please listen..

        Your arms are warm but they make me feel
        As if they’re made of cold, cold steel
        A simple kiss like a turnin’ key
        A little click and the lock’s on me
        Can’t move my arms, can’t lift my hands
        I won’t admit to where I am
        But I know baby, I’m in chains I’m in chains
        I pretend I can always leave
        Free to go whenever I please
        But then the sound of my desperate calls
        Echo off these dungeon walls
        I’ve crossed the line from mad to sane
        A thousand times and back again
        I love you baby, I’m in chains I’m in chains
        I’m in chains I’m in chains
        Should have known passing through the gate
        That once inside I could not escape
        I never thought this could happen to me
        Never thought this is where I’d be
        But baby, baby, baby, look at me
        Baby, baby, look at me, I’m in chains I’m in chains
        I never thought this is where I’d be
        Never thought this could happen to me


        I KNOW there is strength in you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There’s a much simpler way to help – FOTS GOSO.

      3. Presque Vu says:

        True HG.
        Hopefully a defining moment, an epiphany will halt her addiction to him, and she gets the GOSO consult to win back her life to find a love that is true and most importantly reciprocated.

        1. HG Tudor says:


  36. Kellie Mccoey says:

    Understood but you said you pull back and employ devaluation before you can become attached. My narc was a conqueror. He worked on me for several years before I became attached. He started to lose interest when he knew he had me.

  37. Laurie says:

    May I ask you Mr. Tudor, is intimacy something you find distasteful, repellent even, and something that is simply a ‘chore’ that must be performed in order to get fuel? kind of like doing housework……you don’t particularly enjoy it but it needs to be done.
    Is that what intimacy [or the illusion of intimacy] is like for a Narcissist?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Tex says:

        Please correct me if I am wrong but I think the lack of intimacy is not a choice of a narcissist. You just can’t build and feel intimacy without empathy. I think there is no fear of intimacy in narcissist. They just don’t feel it.

        And when you say you abhor intimacy it’s something like if people who are deaf would say they hate going to disco.

        Of course they can make some moves on the dancefloor mirroring how others dance but since they dont hear and feel music it is no fun to them.

        And if they felt lonely and wanted to make friends, they could go to that disco to meet some people, they could dance pretending it is fun just because it is needed to make those people like them and the reward of having new friends is bigger.

        But after a while, when they are sure that people from disco like them or when people from disco are no longer fun, they will start finding excuses to stop going to disco. “Lets play chess instead” or “to be honest, I never liked dancing. It’s so silly” or “I am busy, not today”. It is of course manipulation but they are honest. They really don’t like dancing and never liked. Because they dong feel it, they are just empty silly looking moves.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We do not feel it because we must not be allowed to feel it, for the reasons I have explained.

        2. Kathleen says:

          Tex- i like the disco analogy… Dancing and musicDid seem to have an odd twist to them no pun intended. Like mainly she was looking around to see who else was paying attention to her – Or who else she could dance with… Or she found a structured ballroom dancing to be “more valuable “ dancing- Not just going out and expressing yourself… Because like you’re alluding to they aren’t really feeling it.
          Once I played a song in my apartment And said this is how I feel about you… (burt bacharach?) “ this guy’s in love with you”.
          She obliged to dance- stiffly – then i said how about you bring the song next time about how you feel about meAnd we will dance to it? Well that never happened.

      2. nunya biz says:

        I loved Leslie’s comments about the narcissist wanting a faulty appliance and that has been the thing that has caused me the most confusion and frustration. It has been the thing that makes me feel the narcissist is stupid. Duh, why don’t they just do it right?
        And it’s the thing that ultimately makes me think that N’s are not at all superior, because the “depth” is missing and wrong choices are made that inevitably lead to problems. I consistently see N’s making ridiculous choices that erode underlying structure, that discourage others from making useful, beneficial advancements in favor of crazy ego-boosting pursuits that frustrate any potential fanbase or support system eventually, beginning with individuals who would likely prefer to have positive esteem toward the narc indefinitely, creating fuel filled discord for no reason, etc…

        But after reading this blog for months and having some of the brilliant ladies repeat to me when I’ve gone off course…
        “he doesn’t prioritize correct, he prioritizes fuel”
        “that is not what is required, it is superiority”
        etc, etc, etc
        (thank you tireless ladies)…

        I’ve come to what you are saying, Tex.
        I look at my mother and the intuitive thing I’ve always known about her and the scars I carry even though many could say that “she isn’t that bad” or that she “did her best”,
        the truth is that she wanted me around to do the things she wanted me to do to show that she is a good mother. So hoover, pressure, pull, then berate, criticize, alienate. Over and over.
        Why? Because she needs me but when I don’t provide the specific things she needs she sees me as “doing wrong”. I look at her like “where is the intimacy?” “where is the concern for how I feel” “where is the support?” and I can see she simply doesn’t feel that.
        I have always had a difficulty in participating in anything I view as a surface level control type of interaction and have been rebellious in that way because I can sense the lack of care replaced with being “managed”.

        So I agree, they do what they need to do to get the people, often completely unaware that’s what they are doing, and the alternative value system causes them to not see the depth of interaction that others do and to manipulate to get the needs met while being incapable of the intimacy.

      3. nunya biz says:

        “We do not feel it because we must not be allowed to feel it, for the reasons I have explained.”

        Are you saying you could feel it? Technically.
        I mean I understand the neural pathways are set.
        Trying to understand this part, sorry if it’s something I’m not getting.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, hence why the faux intimacy appears. No need to apologise when you are seeking to understand something, NB.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            There were a few comments on this that that just came through my email that I wanted to reply to so I am just going to try and combine it all into one reply. But I wanted to incorporate what a few people (Leslie, EB, Wiser Now, BKK, and anyone else I might have overlooked)…

            Regarding the narc and how they devalue and destabilize the appliance. How they always must remain superior. How they become bored and wounded. How they hate intimacy yet need fuel, and lastly the contradictions. Oh Lord the CONTRADICTIONS and the INDECISIVENESS.

            Wiser Now: “They hoover an appliance and then punish that appliance for trying to connect with them in a genuine way”.

            YES to that sentence a million times over!

            I cannot remember who said to me on another post (it was awhile ago) but it was something along the lines of how my MMRN (Piano Boy) draws me into him but then pushes me away and punishes me when I get to close. He does this because he needs his control (and now as this post explains, must reject intimacy). Yet he will continually pull me back in and the reset button is pushed each and every time. Then, without fail he withdraws and pushes me away.

            Sometimes he even says “You are getting too close to me again and I am getting uncomfortable again.”

            Lately I have been questioning him more. “Why can’t you just let me be close to you? Why do you keep coming back if you are so uncomfortable?”

            He will lecture me about boundaries and patience and his comfort. And then will say that he loves me but that our feelings for each other are disproportionate (aka: I feel more strongly than him). And then when I ask why he will say things like “I cannot be in love with you, I cannot let that happen”.

            There were a few times when I thought he was going to end things with me and when I questioned him he freaked out and says….”NO. I am not ending anything. Do you hear me? I AM NOT ENDING ANYTHING! We just need to ground ourselves better, balance ourselves better, we will more forward, we will get through this. I am not abandoning you.

            When I complain about his “mixed signals” and ask him what he wants from me, he says things like “I do not think I want a break” and “I do not know what I want, I am just tired”. And lastly “I want you to tell me that you love me and are okay with me”.

            Lastly, there are times he gets irritated with the love that I pour forth and gush on him.

            “I do not need to hear an emotional encyclopedia from you today. I already know what you are going to say, so just save it. Okay?”

            “I already know how you feel about me, you keep telling me over and over”

            But then there are times when he wants to hear it and he will praise and enjoy the love I give him.

            “Tell me again why you love me”, “I love the gentle way you touch me”, “Your kisses are so sweet, I love the way you kiss me”

            So yeah it basically one giant pull and push. When he wants it he cannot get enough. When he doesn’t, he punishes me for feeling the way I do.

            “You are obsessed with me. You feel too strongly for me. You need to be rid of me” (yet “I do not not think I need a break”, “I don’t know what I want” and “I am not ending anything”)

            “We are where we are in life and you just need to accept that”

            and my recent favorite from a few days ago….

            “I love you the way I love you”.

            Feel free to decipher THAT one.

            Sorry this got so long. I just wanted to purge it out in the event it might help someone else. I hope I am not the only one who heard this same type of stuff. It’s all in that hand book right?

            I am pretty sure I am in devaluation right now. I had about 2 weeks of the “Stranger/Friend Zone” behavior, followed by a few corrective putting me in my place conversations. He’s okay then he’s not over a matter of hours. He wants a break but won’t say so but then gets upset and says “if you think I want a break then why are you reaching out to me?” Then when he reaches out I tell him I am confused from his mixed signals and ask what he wants and it’s “I don’t know what I want but I do not think I want a break”. I am very certain that it is because my birthday is this Friday and my party Saturday. He was invited but is still a “maybe”. He keeps flip flipping between yes and no due to his paranoid delusions that my best friend is going to use my party to cause trouble with him. I know that I will not know his intentions of attending unless he either shows up or doesn’t. I guess it will be based on how he feels in the current moment. But yeah I am almost certain that this weirdo behavior is because of my birthday and as HG always says…..they hate birthdays.

            Thanks for listening to me vent.

          2. Caroline says:

            I’ll take this one…

            “I love you the way I love you” deciphered means:
            -No accountability on his part
            -An expression that allows him change how he “feels”/behaves/treats you anytime his mood/wants/need for control shifts
            -A way to shut you up/end your questioning & need for reassurance
            -An “out” for him to feel less overall shame

            In other words, it’s just another narcissistic loophole.

          3. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Just when I think I have him figured out….then I don’t.

            I thought I knew all his nuances and his behavior. Saying “I love you” and then removing it and replacing it with “I care about you”. But then going back to “I love you” again. It is always the same timing with his whole “I need space/you are getting too close and I am feeling uncomfortable”, etc. etc.

            But this….this “I love you the way I love you”. That is a new one. And it was said during a somewhat tense discussion so yeah I guess it makes sense given the situation and everything else you have outlined.

            I really wish I had some kind of sarcastic response to that one. It caught me off guard.

            Usually I have a perfectly timed sarcastic replies to him. Like for example….

            Him: “I care about you”
            Me: “Yeah, I care about you too. I also LOVE YOU”

            Him: “Wishing you many happy returns”
            Me: “WTF, are you a greeting card or some shit now? That sounds so friend zone-ish”

            Me (after he declines being naughty over text): “Do you….no longer want me?”
            Him: “I want you. But you mean more to me than that…”
            (then he goes silent)
            Me: “What’s the matter? Is your hand better than me?”

            Him (after leaving his office and getting into my car before we drive off to wherever we we end up going): “Hey there…”
            Me: “Hey.” (pause in conversation) “So, what is on the agenda for tonight? Dinner? Shopping at the mall? Taking me into the woods and hunting me for sport?”
            Him: (nervous laughter)

            Oh and most recently from about 2 weeks ago….

            Him: “You are so gracious to me, I do not deserve you”.
            Me: “Yeah, you’re goddamn right you don’t. But here I am so let’s just make the best of this shall we?”

            “I love you the way I love you” …. I always have the best comebacks but shit, I have my work cut out for me with that one.

          4. Caroline says:


            You know what I really like about you? You’re open & pretty non-defensive about what others (HG or empaths especially) have to say. You’ll listen & reflect, even if every ounce in you doesn’t want to hear something (specifically, anything that causes you to lose hope) — OR if you just strongly agree with what’s being voiced. You’ll still “sit with it” a minute or so. Those are good qualities to have, sweetheart.

            I have a somewhat unique situation at the moment, which I want to use for good for others, as much as I can (which I already do in real life/so maybe I can in blog life, on occasion)… I’m dealing with a Greater (who obviously knows what he is), and ever since I knew what I was dealing with, I’ve learned even more. A LOT more. So…

            The type of empath I am recognizes that you will stay with this entanglement you’re in until you decide you’re not up for it anymore — that’s obvious, and I’m not here to convince you of anything… I’m a very independent-thinking, freedom-loving, practical/but prone to inspiring others, non-judgy person/empath. I fully believe people need to walk their journey & empower themselves. Sure, they can educate themselves and get good, wise input, but they have to make their own decisions, in their own time. Otherwise, there is no inner strength to draw upon, which is essential. I have a lot of patience for people and that process… because I feel it’s the only way that people change or grow — as they themselves wish to/allow. I always want what is best for others, so I want them to discover that.

            So that’s where I’m always coming from — I need/expect nothing from others, so you’re not going to hurt my feelings one bit if you disregard anything & everything I say. It also won’t annoy me. Just be honest and respectful to me (which you always have been) — that’s all I ask, if I put forth effort, because I genuinely care, and I put much thought into things.

            I do have an opinion on what you shared with me: I think you should forget the sarcasm… and speak a little “light Truth” to the narcissist.

            If you want to know what I mean, let me know. I may not be able to get back to you right away, but I always will reply.

          5. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Hi Caroline…
            I just wanted to let you know that I don’t mind listening to you have to say. I’ve tried to take breaks from this blog because sometimes it stirs too much up for me. Knowing what he is but resisting it and still being determined to “crack” through the wall he goes back and forth with putting up.

            I know I posted about my birthday party being this weekend. And how he continues to drag out the unknown of whether he’ll attend. I feel like this is some super important deciding factor that hangs in the balance. Like his attendance will prove that I mean something when for the last 2 weeks I felt like I mean very little. Like maybe if he blows off the party I’ll be able to finally grow the balls needed to hate him. Gain an upper hand to really stand up and tell him what an ass he’s being, because I usually lose my nerve and I don’t tell him. It kind of comes out with the sarcastic comments examples I gave, that can easily be interpreted as me “joking” (aka: challenge fuel I suppose)… 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

            Anyway, it’s not my intent to go off on a tangent again as I did enough of that yesterday with my comments. As I’ve said… I will listen to what you have to say…

          6. Mary says:

            Fuel on the Shelf:

            I’ve been wondering how your birthday party was and hope you enjoyed your entire birthday weekend.


          7. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Hi Mary,
            Thank you for asking. My party was great. With one day left to go before the party, Piano Boy said he wasn’t going to be there. He didn’t “feel comfortable” being around my family and friends. 🙄 I won’t lie; I took it pretty badly and I’m still hurt. It’s caused me to be more distant (and angry) which is a good thing right now. He pretty much friend zoned me again anyway by saying his guilt is too much for him. Blah blah blah repeat repeat repeat. Of course he says he will “make it up to me in spades” (his exact BS words). Has he though? Nope. Will he? Doubt it. I’m mad but for once it’s good because I need to be. I need to be mad and stay mad. His cowardly avoidance of my party (although hurtful) is a blessing in disguise right now.

          8. Caroline says:

            I’m so joyful to see this message. I know you’re hurt… but seize the moment.

            Dump him. Yes, YOU would be dumping him… and you can do it. You can start feeling better, with that power.

            Much Love,

          9. MB says:

            FOTS, get mad, stay mad, block him, GOSO. You deserve so much more. ❤️

          10. SMH says:


            What you wrote brings back a flood of memories for me. It is hard for me to write this and I feel your pain but your pain is telling you something too. It is a blessing in disguise and your anger is good. A step in the right direction. You are reacting in a healthy way to an unhealthy situation.

            The only time MRN was willing to be around my family or friends was to meet my son, who was visiting. It shocked me that he wanted to but he did and came over. My son was asleep and stayed asleep, so they did not meet, but that particular time MRN and I spent together turned out to be very fun, sweet and relaxed, so of course it was too intimate for MRN – he was getting too close. Soon after, he mentioned feeling guilty (only time he ever did) and then wham – took it out on me by telling me that I shouldn’t be “another obligation.” Classic approach/avoid and the worst thing he ever said to me (he was never really mean directly).

            I knew the avoidance was coming and made an appointment with my therapist in the interim. I had also predicted it months earlier (to MRN) when we were discussing the cons of having an affair (the pros were obvious). But I expected stranger zoning (not what I would have called it at the time as I had not found this site), not insults, so it was like a punch to the gut, because I did everything possible to accommodate him.

            It was a turning point for me because I couldn’t accept being punished for something HE did/was feeling, on top of everything else. My anger became a stone coldness and not long after, we decided (mutually) to end it and we did that face to face (which is when I saw MRN’s third personality – ha).

            Of course it did not really end for another 10 months (and as we all know, it never really ends), but that is what I mark as the beginning of the end. I remember every minute of that month.

            As MB advises, you should take this opportunity to wind things down/go NC.

          11. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            So much of what you said resonates with me as well. He is now friend zoning me and it hurts so badly. “I will always be here for you but I am drawing a line in the sand, this will be platonic moving forward”.

            As upsetting as this is, I know it will be a blessing in disguise. Not right now though, right now it hurts like a wretched motherfucker.

          12. Caroline-is-free says:

            It *is* a blessing, Gabrielle. I know it’s hard, but a romantic relationship with a narcissist will always be most about deceit and suffering.

            Thinking of you, and understanding the pain you’re feeling… but please remember that pain can bring tremendous growth and soul-needed freedom.

            P.S. “My” Greater is now in therapy, and I’m NC — which was always my goal. I did it!!!

          13. SMH says:

            Bravo, Caroline!

          14. Caroline-is-free says:

            Thank you, SMH! I set up a system where he could not hurt me or others close to me…tangled with this Greater (yes, HG, against all counsel/sorry/you know the empath I am), in a slow, steady build-up to his issues from childhood…kept him at bay/never saw him in person… got him into therapy with an expert well-versed on narcissism… and had to then go NC with him (and, sadly, his whole family now, which they do understand)… and he’s still motivated to stay in therapy.

            What’s it take to get a teeny, tiny compliment around here?

            Just joshing. 😉

            But thank ya, Ma’am.

            ~Cartwheeling Caroline

          15. Kim e says:

            EXCELLENT!!!!! A hero to the empaths. You were a hero to me before this but this solidified it for me.

          16. Caroline-naked-without-her-pale-green-dress says:

            Aww, Kim e~that was so sweet of you that it brought tears to my eyes… thank you for your kindness, doll.

            But back to you. How can I get that narcissist away from you and tied up in therapy too? LOL…

            No, but seriously, how goes it? How’s your internal strength holding up? How have you been feeling? Where are your thoughts? How sufficient does your cold-hard logic seem at this point? Are you still afraid of losing him – or more determined to rid yourself of the entanglement?

            Sorry about that barrage of questions; as always, answer whatever you want/can. 🙂

          17. Kim e says:

            Hi Caroline. I have failed at another nc. I know it is an addiction and will take numerous tries.
            I have finally bit the bullet and am going to do a consult with HG. Scared to death. Not of HG…..so must be that the spell might actually be broken if I follow his suggestions.
            But I have to do something. All my n said to me was hi and I am right back to square one. (He found a loophole I had forgotten to close)
            Thanks for the support. I will keep in touch

          18. SMH says:

            Caroline, Amazing that you got him into therapy and good work going NC with the whole family (sad as that part is as I know you were close with his brother)! I once told mine that I wanted him to pay for MY therapy. Of course HE was the one who actually needed the therapy. I have not needed therapy since I got him out of my life 10 months ago. Let this be a lesson to all of us – we are not the ones in need of therapy. Hugs, SMH

          19. Caroline-is-free says:


            If an empath needs support/counsel/therapy due to problems associated with the abuse of an entanglement, there is no shame in that. But I understand your sentiment. Empaths are all about love/care/connecting. We have what is good – right – important – fulfilling.

            Even though I remained confident that I could accomplish getting him to see an expert, it was taxing. I had to always be “on” and aware. It would have been nearly impossible if I was addicted to him. That’s where logic helped me so much, because I could care about him, but in a much more intellectualized way of thinking.

            I wondered if when all was said and done, would I miss him? After observing his behavior with all the insight from this blog tucked inside me, I can honestly say I do not miss the interactions with him now.

            You know the one thing that I will miss? His voice — just the sound of it, not what he says. I’m thinking that is because when I was his IPPS, the quality of his voice got attached to those “golden” memories. To combat that while talking to him, I did a few things, and that helped a lot.

            So now, after all of it… it’s like there is a voice out there — an alien, so to speak — who has a voice of someone I used to know and love… but the person I used to know with that voice was actually just a dream — a dream I helped create (by filling in the gaps), so it’s not real to me anymore. That was a major breakthrough.

            I learned so much during this. It’s helped me stretch in a way I was afraid to, which is one of the reasons why I needed to do it. I feel more free now than ever.

            Surprisingly, I have no pressing need to know if he stays in therapy. I did the small part I could, with the knowledge from HG (and empath contributions here too). The rest is now up to him.

            I wish him well, whoever he is.

          20. SMH says:


            It’s remarkable that you faced your ‘demon’ and made it out the other side – stretched, as you say. You went through the whole process. Amazing. I am sure it was one of the hardest things you ever had to do.

            I don’t think about MRN much now (only when I am on here or he indirectly hoovers me). Thankfully, we don’t even live in the same country now. So very different from last year this time.

            But because I escaped and lashed out to keep him away, and didn’t find HG until afterwards, I never had the chance to apply HG’s teachings, though I already knew due to my own observations (which triggered my escape). It makes me feel like I still have unfinished mental business of my own.

            I guess I am trying to say that because of the way things ended, my fortitude has not been tested. I know he still triggers me as a few months ago I got anxious when I saw someone who looked like him, and I don’t allow myself to look at pictures of him. So I am not convinced I am ‘over’ it – can’t yet change my moniker to SMH-is-free! I therefore have no idea whether I am weak willed or not, though in other respect I am very strong willed.

            Still, I am very happy now and the only obvious after effect is that I keep being attracted to married men! I do think about therapy for that small problem! 🙂

          21. Caroline says:


            No, I disagree — your fortitude HAS been tested, and you passed with flying colors!

            Yours is a different set of factors, so please do not look at it as a matter of you being “weak willed” or having to prove you can “stand up against it” after the knowledge base gained here. Your knowledge base tells you (wisely) to STAY GONE…

            If there’s a fire in your house, do you stay and try to overcome it? No — you run for your freedom & flee! (Do you later on start a new fire? I think not).

            Same goes for me. But in this situation, I escaped the burning house but only went back to bring the narcissist trapped inside firefighter help — I then let the firefighters do their job… it’s not mine to do.

            I am joyful about the outcome, no question… but there was no personal glory or vindication for me to get him into therapy and then go NC. It was actually a humbling experience, because I had to ALWAYS KNOW that I personally could never save him — not only that, but that it was still (however small the chance) possible he could harm me or others. It was a risk…a calculated risk with lots of planning, but still, a risk! I did it because I could not live with myself for not trying *once* to get him help. That is the fear I had to overcome — worse to try or not to try? It’s a very hard and personal decision… for me, I had faith in the trying, for numerous reasons.

            Please understand also that I did this strictly to get him into therapy, and he is *aware* he is a narcissist & willing to talk to me about that… so that is why it was even possible. He also was at a point of breakdown in some ways, so he was more motivated now… and I had much support in this (his family/professionals). So…

            HAVE NOT ONE DOUBT ABOUT THIS: The gift of strength you gave yourself, sweet SMH, was escaping and now NC… and I am so glad he is far away from you.

            As for attraction to married men… my (sorry, unsolicited) advice is to decide to stay away there too! They & their wives deserve to have every chance to make their marriages work/stay intact (you just focus deeply on your great empathy for the wives)…* and* you deserve ALL of someone’s special partnership love.

          22. SMH says:

            Caroline, I don’t flirt but I am direct so I must look them in the eye and they come after me. I work with one of them. We’re soon going to overlap very briefly on separate trips and HE asked to meet up.

            I’ve thought about the patterns. All are very smart, married to ‘sweet’ women (I can be sweet, thanks, but at base I am not), think I am ‘exotic,’ younger than I am, like my kind of intelligence as long as it complements theirs, and have only daughters (I have only a son).

            The only daughters thing includes exH (a LN but divorced and pre-MRN) and the narc who died on me last year (also divorced). So that’s almost every man I have had any degree of entanglement with for years now.

            Anyone have any thoughts? Do cheaters/narcs (counting LN exH, who cheated on his first wife, and dead narc, who cheated on his ex-wife) with only daughters use them for feminist cred? Feel ganged up on and cooped up at home? Unfulfilled? Misunderstood? There is some weird gender dynamic going on. It’s not just about sex per se.

            In any case, I am not sure I want all of anyone, which is why mm might be drawn to me (not needy) and me to them. But I also do not want to be anyone’s secret. If I ever have a dating profile again it will say “no mm and no men with only daughters.”

            I am glad you were able to do what you did without getting too caught up in it – that you were not trying to ‘save’ him on your own and that you feel good about it. Maybe I would have encouraged MRN into therapy (individual – he was in marital counseling while I was IPSS) had we been able to remain friends. He did know there was something off about him, though I don’t think he was close to breakdown and of course I could not have roped his family into it because I did not exist! So yes, I fled the burning house. xo

          23. Kim e says:


            It does hurt like hell. I am in day 5 of having him blocked and I think it is the worst so far. Saturday night was a cryfest. Monday was a FU YOU AHOLE kinda day.Yesterday was…Kim, you deserve so much more. You want a regular relationship which you will never have with your narc. You want someone that doesn’t say to you “I don’t do emotions” and actually settle for that. I went to bed feeling revived and slept like a rock.
            This morning…weepyness has returned.
            BUT every day…not matter what new feelings it brings I know I am getting that much closer to freedom.
            Not sure what will happen when he realizes one of his dust bunnies is gone from the shelf, but if I have to deal with it when it happens I will.

            I do not tell you this to make you feel sorry for me. I tell you because I was (in his mind still am) like you on the shelf and we deserve SO MUCH MORE. There is SO MUCH MORE.

            There are actual guys that would LOVE to go to your birthday party.
            There are actual guys that will put you first…not after his family.
            There are actual guys that love you…..real love…….
            There are actual guys that value you as much as you are valued on this website


          24. SMH says:

            Kim E, Dust bunny! Ha! Mine would say similar things about emotions – ‘I have very few emotions,’ ‘I don’t understand other people’s emotions,’ etc. It was like talking to a rock or a flat paper bag. Human complexity just was not there. Weirdest thing, thinking back on it.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            FOTS, consider yourself lucky he didn’t go to your birthday party; mine did come but made me suffer indescribably by suggesting that I invited also his other IPSS, the one he triangulated me with. I refused to do so of course. Then he posted a happy birthday THE DAY AFTER on Facebook which included the words “it’s you’re birthday.” I know he misspelled it on purpose. They are rats, don’t miss him. I miss him sometimes and feel sad inside, then I remember how much I agonized when we were together and he triangulated me and I feel so much better. I promise that moment will come, stay strong. And block that motherfucker!

          26. SMH says:

            Of course he did, SP, and great points. Narcs do not like celebrating other people’s birthdays, as HG has pointed out, and will do anything to destabilize you on yours.

      4. nunya biz says:

        Thank you HG : )

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  38. Kellie Mccoey says:

    Very interesting. Do you think you switch to devaluation when you start to feel a tingle of intimacy?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No. Devaluation is for reasons as set out previously

    2. E. B. says:

      Hello Kellie,
      I thought you might be interested in this article.
      The 5 Reasons The Narcissist Devalues You

    3. Pauline says:

      Imo devaluation starts (based on what you can read on this blog) when you no longer act like a totally infatuated teenager who is crazy in love with her prince charming.

      After a few months YOU change. You don’t feel the buttefrles in your stomach everytime you see him. You don’t praise him 24h. You stop doing anything he wants you to do. The chemicals in your brain starts fading away. You start acting normal. Like a normal person in a normal relationship. Sometimes you criticise your narcissist. Sometimes you act bored. Sometimes you disagree. Sometimes you prefer to meet friends instead of spending time with him. Sometimes you have to work late. Sometimes you don’t put your make up. Sometimes you have a headache.

      It means you stop feeding his ego. Your fuel is less potent. You start accidentaly wounding him. Remember – when you blame him for something, when you tell him he is wrong you can cause an injury. Because of NPD he can;t take the criticism like a healthy secure person.

      Once you fed his ego, once you made him feel great about himself, now you wound his ego.

      At the same time the chemicals in his brain also fades away. You are boring, you have flaws, you don’t make him good about himself.

      So he starts to devalue you because 1. at this point he knows he must find someone new who will make him feel great once again 2. by devaluing you and manipulating you, you start giving him negative fuel that works for him better than no fuel or wounding.

      So as HG says – intimacy has nothing to do with that. You are devalued because you are boring, demanding, hurting his ego.

      1. Kathleen says:

        Pauline- Great summary on devaluation!

      2. SMH says:

        Pauline, Not sure this is posting in the right place but hope you find it. I just wanted to second Kathleen’s comment that it is a great summary of devaluation. It is exactly what happened to me post-escape. The chemicals were already fading and then I accidently wounded him while we were trying to be ‘friends’! Ha. I guess because his fuel was so low at that point, he really did not take it very well. Lol. At the time, I got angry and followed up the accidental wounding by deliberately beating him while he was down (all because he gave me a silent treatment), but now I can laugh at the memory, so thank you for your insighful description.

        1. Sophia says:

          The truth is also we start devaluing them. Nobody wants to be around a narcissist that has stopped pretending. THEY are boring us, and rightly so. I suspect narcissists are dumped FAR more often than their grandiose tales lead on.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I refer you to the earlier answer which demonstrates you are incorrect.

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