The Three Strands of Empathy

THE3STRANDSOF EMPATHY

The concept of empathy can be divided into three types. There are three identifiable strands.

First of all there is the idea of cognitive empathy whereby one can understand the point of view of another person. I am able to understand another person’s point of view but I will rarely accede to it, unless I see some ulterior gain to be obtained from expressing that I understand their point of view. Even where I explain I understand, I am still unlikely to accept it. The Lesser and the Mid-Range are unable to understand that person’s point of view because it will oppose their own, stand in the way of what they want to achieve and frustrate their aims owing to their differing perspective. They lack the cognitive function to address this. Of course, empathic individuals are experts at understanding another person’s point of view but they will go further than this. They will exhibit patience to allow that point of view to be articulated, they will ask questions to draw out this view and they will apply it to their own situation and experiences. Empathic individuals want to understand the other person’s point of view. They not only give it a platform to begin with, but they also allow it to be aired, expanded and applied. It is little wonder therefore that this cognitive empathy bleeds into the empathic traits of patience, needing to understand and needing to know the truth. Furthermore, having such cognitive empathy means that the empathic individual is far more susceptible to the word salad, circular conversations, lies and half-answers that our kind provide. The empathic individual endures these manipulations as he or she tries to wade through the quagmire in order to flex their cognitive empathy so that they understand the narcissist’s point of view. Of course, since our point of view operates from a completely distorted and different perspective, you have little hope of achieving it.

Secondly, there is also empathy concern whereby one is able to recognise the emotional state of another person, feel a need to address that emotional state and therefore exhibit the appropriate concern for the individual. In all three schools of narcissism, our capacity with regard to empathy concern is skewed. The Greater is always able to perform the recognition part of this but has never been created with the sense of needing to address it even though our increased cognitive function means we can work out, through observation and experience, what the appropriate concerned response should be. This means that we can recognise somebody is in distress, understand that they need help but feel no compulsion whatsoever to provide it. We will however, because we have two of the three parts of empathy concern, feign a concern based on our understanding, but only if we see it as serving our interests. This is why, during seduction especially or for the benefit of the façade during devaluation, we can appear that we are concerned that somebody is worried or upset. We do not feel any need to assist them, but we recognise our own need can be served by doing so.

The Lesser is able to recognise the emotional state of another person, feels no need to address it and is unable to exhibit the appropriate concern for the individual. As a consequence, even during seduction, the Lesser will present as blank-faced when dealing with certain emotional episodes and will often vacate him or herself from the situation. During devaluation, he will only see the fuel advantage from this emotional state and indeed rather than be supportive, since he feels no need to, he will just exploit it further.

The Mid-Ranger also recognises the emotional state, feels no need to address it and has a limited repertoire by way of fake concern. Thus in some instances he can pretend that he is concerned and in others he has no answer and will leave the victim to their woe and distress and has enough calculation to state he has somewhere urgent he must be and thus he escapes the demand for assistance and help made by the victim.

Unsurprisingly, the empathic individual has all three elements of this particular strand of empathy intact and in intense quantities. The empathic individual is able to recognise the emotional state of another with considerable ease, even if they are trying to mask it. They absolutely feel and recognise the need to do something when they see somebody else’s emotional reaction. This compulsion is almost irresistible for the empathic individual and they are also fully-acquainted with what they should do by way of response. They will share in the joy, congratulate when someone is happy through good news, console when someone is miserable and hold them when they are heart-broken. The empathic individual is no different with our kind and see our emotional response – albeit from a limited selection – feels the need to address it and also knows how to address it. Thus when we discharge our fury, our hatred, our envy and our antipathy, the empathic individual owing to this concern empathy is always galvanised into action, will rarely shirk the challenge and addresses the issue even at considerable cost to themselves.

Finally there comes the idea of the emotional contagion. This is a deep-seated and one may even regard it as a spiritual element of the empathic individual. This is not just about understanding a point of view or recognising an emotional need and response, this is about feeling the emotion just as somebody else does. Thus if a friend is upset over the death of a parent, the empathic individual is contaminated by this grief and experiences the same emotions as if they were grieving themselves. This not only means that they fountain with fuel which of course our kind will exploit but that they are powered into recognising the need and doing something about even more than would be afforded by the cognitive empathy and concern empathy. The emotional contagion exists in all empathic individuals but is more intense in certain people. Indeed, its intensity may even go beyond being proximate to the person experiencing the emotion. A highly-attuned individual with the emotional contagion will watch a television programme and where the main character is frightened,they will feel that fear also. They will read a moving newspaper article about the plight of an orphan and they will feel that despair as well. It is an immensely powerful part of empathy and causes the empathic individual to have to respond to it.

We have no such emotional contagion. It is completely absent and therefore we have nothing which might cause us to feel something so we act upon it. There is nothing there. The plight of the orphan is not felt by us and we are utterly unmoved. The fear of the heroine on television is regarded with annoyance since our primary source seems more concerned about that person than us. The only time that we regard this emotional contagion as any use is when it serves our purposes when the empathic individual fountains with fuel because of it and directs their empathic traits towards us. We do not have this contagion and we do not feel anything in the way that you would do.

224 thoughts on “The Three Strands of Empathy

  1. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, how come the comments no longer show?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because I have not been moderating for a few days owing to other commitments.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank goodness! I was beginning to go into full on shock!

  2. About the eyes says:

    HG, maybe you answered my question elswhere but I coul not find it:
    The tree levels of Narcissists: lower – midrange – greater: this is based on their level of cognitive intelligence and has nothing to do with their education? A professor might be a lower Narcissist and a house painter might be a greater? You can’t identify them by their social position only their behaviour?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is based on a multiplicity of factors. Intelligence is just one of those factors.

  3. Snob Not says:

    Being in abusive relationships with narcissistic people all my life, and i have always struggled to understand how they understand love? My husband, which finally now i got the courage to ask to leave, keeps trying to convince me that he loves me and is making guilt tripping me that i stopped loving him after years of physical, emotional and verbal abuse! He keeps telling me how sensitive he is. How can i convince him that he doesn’t or that this is not what love is, or is there no use for him to ever understand that?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is no point. Look to your own defences. You cannot convince him of what he really is, his disorder will not let him see.

      1. Snob Not says:

        Thank u…

  4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    SMH: Definition of mealy mouthed: `meal·y-mouthed
    /ˈmēlēˌmouT͟Hd,ˈmēlēˌmouTHt/
    adjective
    afraid to speak frankly or straightforwardly.
    “mealy-mouthed excuses” SMH: fits the cowardly mid ranger: hahaha!

  5. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: I have heard you say that mid rangers are cowards. My emotional thinking always has a great laugh of understanding when you say that mid rangers are cowards. I always laugh when you say that, in fact. But, I do not really know what you mean. Will you tell me, please?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They engage in passive aggressive behaviours, they throw the metaphorical second punch, they are two-faced, they do not go head to head but are mealy-mouthed, whining individuals.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: Hahaha! I perceive you are not a fan of the mid ranger. I know: you are probably not a fan of any of them, but, I still perceive you are not a fan of the `humble` mid ranger. lol!!!!!

      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: Thank you for your explanation. And, you know what? Neither am I a fan of the `humble` mid ranger. And they are the majority of the one, it seems to me, that are swarming all over the place.

      3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: What does throw the second punch mean? I searched google, just now, but was not provided an answer. Maybe it is a British saying/idiom….

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It means they lack the courage or conviction to land the first blow, but instead piggy back another doing so. Thus, if they see a person upbraiding another they will join in on the back of that, supporting the upbraider and adding their own similar comments but only after having realised that someone else is driving the admonishment. It is based on façade management and waiting to see which way the wind is blowing before launching their own attack. They will launch their own attack behind closed doors, but public ‘attacks’ they generally leave to another and then piggyback it.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG. Thank you. 🙂 I thought about this, and, I believe it is somewhat similar to the United States football phrase: `piling on`. When the Quarterback is already sacked, and other players jump on the pile, afterwards. But my example is not exactly the same, really, because the piler on does not gain anything, but enjoyment for `piling on`, but he looks sort of like a bad sport, while the mid ranger gains from throwing the second punch…. However, I like that saying that this coward, throws the second punch, and hope to be able to use it soon. I sure had some fun with that other saying you brought us: someone `lit the blue touch paper`! lol

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: You are so right! They wait before they jump in, and after they calculate the strongest side. One time the Narcissist jumped to the wrong side of an argument and I had to pull him out, just before they could push him to settle it. I grabbed him by the arm and said to them all with authority: “He can not chose sides. You have to work it out, yourselves.“ He looked at me and covertly smiled, they looked at me with venom. lol. I was right though. This is what happened: One of his lieutenants, the one I label the bitter one, almost sold him down the river, so that she could be right against a rival within our group argument. She was losing, and she called him over into the argument, and he almost took her side. But, he does not realize that she, the bitter one, is not as popular as she portrays herself to be to him when she interacts with him, and she was losing the argument, as well. So, because I knew the entire story of the argument, I pulled him out of it. He almost made a big mistake, if he had sided with her in that group argument. I never found out how they resolved the argument. He gladly left, and I left as well. I was sort of persona non grata at that point with the bitter one especially, anyway. I could not have cared less.

          3. Narc noob says:

            Hi HG, is this piggy backing and second punch attribute of the MRN all out of facade management? I see that its a way of taking a bit of truth and then using it to twist into something they benefit from. I’m aware a good liar doesn’t blantely make things up, they need accurate information in the mix to convey their manipulations.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Partially. It is more to do with being cowardly and not taking the first step until recognising the way the wind is blowing. It is also done to curry favour with the First Striker and thus gain fuel.

          5. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG. Regarding: so many victims of Narcissism believing they were entangled with a Greater or Elite Narcissist. Great has been the suffering of many people entangled with Narcissists. So if they could chose a word to discuss their pain, on a scale of 1 being low pain and 10 being great pain, they would say, great pain. A 10! They would not feel they were on the lesser scale range of pain, nor the lower scale rage of pain. Nor the middle range of pain. So it is also understandable that with the great pain and duress people endured, they would subconsciously want to use the word greater, because they are in great pain. Therefore they would want to say a Greater caused such great pain, even if this is a subconscious definition of how they feel, rather than a technical one. Just like when HIV positive meant people had HIV, at first people thought that being HIV positive was a good thing, when it is not. The technical term positive and the technical term negative confused people. People usually felt good about the word positive and bad about the word negative. HIV negative, however, is the good thing. So the wording sometimes is in conflict with how the word is felt, subconsciously and usually. Subconsciously people would believe that a Greater narcissist caused such great pain. But it is not a pain scale that we are talking about when we discuss lower, midrange and greater Narcissists. I believe some of the misuse lies therein, on how people easily mistake the usage. Because what the words mean and how they feel, subconsciously, collide.

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Dearest HG. The odd thing is that everything that you say about the Lower Greater Narcissist fits this Narcissist word by word, except for the Sulk he tries to hide at times. I believe I try to throw all classically good looking men and women into the Somatic group, but that is not always the case, I am sure. I do not want to believe that I have encountered a greater Narcissist.. Even a lower type. But, one of his Lieutenants, the Nurse, may also be a lower greater, although I class her as somatic, as well. She makes about $90,000. a year and is taking a one year course that will take her to $120,000. per year. I would consider her more practically intelligent than intellectually intelligent. She knows how to manipulate men, but can`t find a boyfriend. She likes them and they do not like her, or they like her and she does not like them. She loves a lot of selfless and travels a lot alone, and does not attach to men and dates incessantly. I told her to go to a paid matchmaking site instead of the common ones, but she refuses. The Narcissist that I entangled with has a childhood friend that is not a Narcissist that works internationally, and has high narcissistic traits, but this one that I entangled with stays local, and everything else you say about the lower Greater. I believe that my mind believes that when you say Greaters are rare, it means they practically do not exist. HG: When you say that Greaters are rare, I am not sure how to compute that. How rare are they? And, if someone entangles with a Greater, is the extrication different, in general?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Something like 2-4% of our kind are Greaters which means we are very rare.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: Thank you. Then, I think I have met only one. A Dean in a University where I once studied. I loved his office. It was huge. And sparse. For effect. One huge tapestry. One table/desk where he sat. One piece of Sculpture. And one chair, for you to sit in across from him. In that huge space. Wow! I went for his help only once. And to complain only once. All satisfactory. He pulled off the `impossible` for me. Without blinking, once he made his consideration. Power. Because of him, doing that one favor for me, I was able to leap over an enemy Professor, at the final hour, past all possible deadlines, and thereby graduate with honors. All with one stroke of his pen. I felt ill watching him sign and write his powerful statement to that Professor. He told me, that I had never asked for anything, but gave a lot to the school. I thanked him, and felt dizzy and nauseous that the deed could be done and was done. He over-powered a powerful Professor for me. With a pen. With a stunning pen, as well.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            HG
            Re: Greaters being rare.

            Surely not that low. If we made a drinking game out of every time someone one on here claimed to be with a Greater, we’d be drunk everyday by 3 AM and you’d have a link to AA.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            ‘I am a super empath and I was with a Greater.’

            Indeed and the cheque is in the post and I won’t cum in your mouth.

          5. Kim e says:

            ‘I am a super empath and I was with a Greater.’

            Indeed and the cheque is in the post and I won’t cum in your mouth.

            HG & NA….I now have to buy a new computer screen as mine was drowned with the tea as it spit out of my mouth…LOL
            This made my year,,,,,,,,You are a card HG!!!! Lets go drinking some night……

          6. Twilight says:

            HG
            And Narc Angel

            I am a Contagion and was with a Greater…..sorry couldn’t resist
            I am now going to go back and continue sorting my emotions out on a situation I am dealing with in my personal life.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Twilight
            I could be mistaken, but I thought yours was confirmed by HG in a consult. I hope you get things sorted and get feeling better. You need to reserve your energy for the important things – visits with your granddaughter.

          8. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            I was being sarcastic.

            HG and I have discussed my ex and he is a Greater. Jon explained his perspective to me similar to how HG has, instead of calling it a fuel matrix it was discribe as levels. Jon explained how people were connected to him, explained how he used visual cues and showed me he could produce a tear if needed. He began to explain “fuel” to me when I made many connections to what he was saying was NPD due to my associating NPD and my time with my husband I left.

            Jon is a Greater….HG never had to confirm I knew without a doubt. HG is the only person I have come across that has gone beyond what Jon did.
            Until I actually heard HGs voice I worried he was Jon due to the similarities of describing the perspective.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            Twilight
            I thought that to be the case. Thanks for confirming.

          10. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: Is it possible that readers are confusing the terminology, the technical terms? Some say elite, and some say greater and some say upper. And then all that gets mixed up with the cadres. Like someone said MRE. And is that the same as The UMR, that some say? Are MRE and UMR the same? I think the technical terms are being confused. I thought Greaters were rare, but then I see Elite used a lot. So, I was not sure, if I had exaggerated in my mind that Greaters were rare. I was just trying to see if I were making an error in thinking that Greaters were rare. And you are the person to ask.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Schools Lesser, Mid Range and Greater.
            Thus subdivided into Lower Lesser, Middle Lesser, Upper Lesser and LMR,MMR,UMR and LG,MG,UG.

            Then the cadres – Victim, Somatic, Cerebral and Elite which bolt on to the schools (but not all). Elite is more common as a cadre than Greater is as a school.

          12. NarcAngel says:

            HG
            Ba hahaha. Exactly.

          13. Twilight says:

            HG

            This means the Contagion is rarer then the Greater 1-2%

            I think I feel sick…..I need to feel the ocean breeze and waves

          14. FYC says:

            Hello HG & NA, I’ll drink to that 😉

            I’ll offer a nerdy take on the probability of any narcissist being a greater based upon percentage of prevalence of necessary traits:

            Between 2017 and 2018, it was estimated only 8%-15% of the general population is actually self-aware.

            In 1968 NPD was estimated to occur in 1% of the population. By 2018 it is estimated to have grown to ~6% of the population (with up to ~3% of them having coexisting APD).

            Only 4.78% of the population are estimated to have an IQ over 125.
            A mere one quarter of one percent of people are estimated to have an IQ over 140 (considered genius threshold).

            In terms of probabilities, the ratio of number of favorable outcomes (one possess all of these qualities) to the total number of possible outcomes (far more possible outcomes) is rare indeed!

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Producing statistical evidence in support of a proposition is not nerdy, FYC, it is credible.

          16. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            FYC> Thank you so much FYC. I appreciate it.

          17. NarcAngel says:

            FYC
            Well there you go. Unless we’ve snagged every one of their victims here on the blog (which is unlikely and I’ll bet there’s a statistic somewhere for that as well lol), then many people are mistaken. Just because they put one over on you, seem smart, or have money doesn’t mean they are a greater and I think people tend to idealize them even in their standing as a narcissist (sometimes possibly due to pride in that it’s viewed as elevating their own standing (so to speak) in having been snagged by a Greater). I raise this because I think it’s important to have it confirmed as to the proper school and cadre because the methods used to deal with each effectively can differ.

          18. nunya biz says:

            Ha! You did say facials were on the menu tho : (

          19. FYC says:

            HG, I prefer your hilarious response😂 My ever-present curiosity could not resist a quick fact check. Thank you for your support, most people I know consider it nerdy, but I’m okay with that!

          20. Twisted Heart says:

            I think so many of us believe that we were ensnared by a greater because we read HG’s articles and everything finally makes sense and we end up projecting his truth onto our own narcs. I admit to doing that myself. The pain and the fear that we feel run so deep that it’s hard to understand that it wasn’t calculated because who could act like that instinctively? once we realize we were with a narcissist it can only be rationalized in our empathic minds as intentional. The narc detector really helped me to see it for what it is (even though I took it twice because I just couldn’t get my head around it, right HG!) The narcissist is a disordered person who is basically on auto pilot in order to survive. So incredibly sad and dangerous.

          21. Twisted Heart says:

            I would also like to add that because I carry a majority of contagion traits, I thought he must be a greater because it makes no sense why he was so cruel and why he has such a hold on me after just a 2 month fling. It has never taken me this long to get over anyone.

            He’s just your run of the mill middle mid ranger, somatic at that. But I have come up with an analogy that has really helped me…

            We met at an extremely vulnerable time in my life so I was extra absorby – like the quicker picker upper!
            I compare it to someone with a weakened immune system and any exposure to a bug or flu could become detrimental to your health whereas normally you would be able to fight it off and recover a lot sooner.

            Someone should really come up with a vaccination for this!

          22. FYC says:

            NA, Is is a very common phenomena. In fact even the quoted data points are an example themselves. The study on self report asked the participant if they *believed* they were self aware. Unsurprisingly, 95% reported they were, yet when analyzed with accurate measures of true self-awareness, only 8-15% were.

            The same is true of narcissism. It is not uncommon for misdiagnosis by professionals (many documented citations and one reason the DSM changes). It is also not uncommon for actual narcissists to believe they are not a narcissist (all lesser and mid-range).

            Lastly, 94% of people think they have a higher IQ than actually tested.

            This known self report bias is the reason why self report tests must be rigorously evaluated and tested for reliability and validity.

            Even the researcher can hold unintentional bias simply by forming a hypothesis. When we form a concept/belief our minds seek confirmation of that belief, sometimes inadvertently ignoring non-supportive data. Another reason why rigorous methods are necessary.

            Further, our blind spot (unawareness) can act as a defense mechanism ‘protecting’ us from uncomfortable data (things we fear to face). Most want a high degree of insight and self awareness, yet such awareness can overwhelm if not managed effectively.

            Chalk it all up to human nature😉

          23. FYC says:

            HG & NA, I did the math based on global adult population and assuming the first cut is narcissism, second, self awareness, third, high IQ, the result was ~2% of all narcissists are likely to possess all of these qualities. (Far fewer if IQ above 140–perhaps that should be reserved for Ultra?)

          24. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG. You proved my point that I was trying to make. My point was that it is not very simple to put this all together. And people are not foolish and clowns if they make errors, in confusing the levels involved when trying to work within your amazing grip on this pathos: [[[ ` Schools Lesser, Mid Range and Greater.
            Thus subdivided into Lower Lesser, Middle Lesser, Upper Lesser and LMR,MMR,UMR and LG,MG,UG.

            Then the cadres – Victim, Somatic, Cerebral and Elite which bolt on to the schools (but not all). Elite is more common as a cadre than Greater is as a school.` ]]]] ~~ H.G. Tudor. HG, this understanding that you have is so phenomenal, and what is more amazing is that you have yet to tell us all that you know, and what is even more incredible than that, is that you have the ability to keep expanding on the knowledge as the landscape of these schools and the dynamic in which these Narcissists maneuver, continue to change. Bravo!

      4. mommypino says:

        I think for me, the most exhausting part of dealing with my MRE sister was not really her manipulations because once I understood how she works her manipulations were really juvenile at best. The most exhausting thing about her was her endless whining. She always finds something to whine about and she had such a loud and obnoxious voice and she wouldn’t stop whining until you baby her enough and act as her therapist. Which I tried to indulge since she was homeless and have told me a few times that she just wanted to kill herself. It’s hard to deal with someone that you see as a weakling but treats you as an inferior to her in ways that are very underhanded.

        1. Oracle says:

          I have to make a cheat sheet for the acronyms. What is a MRE?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Mid Range Elite.

          2. mommypino says:

            Hi Oracle, it’s Mid-Range Elite.

      5. ava101 says:

        What does “second punch” and “mealy mouthed” mean?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Do see explanation given to PSE.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: I feel so embarrassed and ashamed. hahaha! How in the world does one become entangled with largely a cowardly, mealy-mouthed, whining, passive-aggessive, two faced, second punch throwing, under the table. individual, such as the mid ranger? No wonder so much confusion is felt. I am not created for Narcissists. However, if I am ever again entangled, give me cold, give me hot, but do not give me a luke-warm, swampy, back room dealing, snide, snarky and murky mid ranger! It is Unbelievable.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            interesting – so does this mean that only greaters/lessers will throw the first punch?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Not only, usually. A Mid Ranger will throw the first punch towards say the IPPS behind closed doors as he will feel more in control of the situation by lashing out at the IPPS who is in devaluation. He would do the same to say a Shelf IPSS away from other people. Alternatively, they might make a remark towards the IPPS or Shelf IPSS in front of other people which is a dig at that person but only they would realise that. Again, the MR feels in control. If the target was say a NISS in a group of people the MR is less likely to feel in control as there would be uncertainty as to how the group might view the ‘punch’, thus if someone else leads the way, the MR slipstreams that with the benefit of one other acting in a particular way, the group response being more evident and thus there is a sense of control. The Lesser’s lack of awareness, lower control threshold and lower cognitive function means he will just wade in straight away – he is after all aggressive and a wrecking ball. If the group disapproves he gains negative fuel (although Challenged) and may lash out at them or withdraw (to assert control in his mind unconsciously).
            The Greater will know through higher cognitive function and awareness that the group will follow/approve his action and thus is in control and can land the first punch.

          4. mommypino says:

            HG thank you so much for this brilliant explanation. You really bring light and clarity to the confusing experiences that we had from narcs. Now this experience finally makes sense to me. When my MRE sister was homeless and staying at our house, we were going to have Thanksgiving where my narcish stepdaughters will visit us. I am now thinking that my older stepdaughter is a Mid-Ranger and my youngest stepdaughter is either a Lesser or a Co-D with a bad temper just trying hard to impress her big sister and mom although she was officially diagnosed with bipolar. I was so stressed out that those three will gang up on me during the Thanksgiving dinner and I was planning and deciding how I’m going to react if that happens. Well, during the dinner, all three were so nice to me!!! My youngest stepdaughter brought her new boyfriend whom I think is an empath and ALL of them were very nice and complimentary to the food that I made. That was the only holiday that I have experienced with them that they were nice to me when they could have all easily ganged up on me. It’s the FACADE!! They were all not sure who will throw in the first punch because they have never met each other before and my youngest stepdaughter was trying to impress her new boyfriend. You are so brilliant HG! Thank you for all that you teach to us!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome MP.

          6. alexissmith2016 says:

            thank you HG for taking the time to provide such a lengthy response. It’s really helpful to my learning (and I’m sure others) to understand this dynamic in public situations.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          8. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest H.G. Tudor. Thank you for not being a Mid Ranger. Much Obliged. 🙂

          9. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: You bring to us the best words: Now we have from you: Slipstreams. I just looked it up: [A slipstream is a region behind a moving object in which a wake of fluid (typically air or water) is moving at velocities comparable to the moving object, relative to the ambient fluid through which the object is moving]. HG: This is just great! Now we have, the cowardly, slipstreaming, passive-aggressive, mealy-mouthed, two faced, second punch throwing, whining Mid Ranger. lol. Sometimes, being able to laugh at someone takes away the power that person has over one, HG. I would never laugh in this person`s face. Not my style. But, it sure fun to laugh on here! 🙂

        2. mommypino says:

          Ava101, I looked up mealy mouthed: it is being afraid to speak directly or frankly.

          1. ava101 says:

            Aaah I see, thank you, Mommypino!

          2. mommypino says:

            Ava101, You’re welcome!

  6. Oracle says:

    Last night my suspected narc and i got into an argument. Shocker i know. The summary of the Argument is that he says a game is malfunctoning and giving his points to me. I actually agreed and we moved on. When i said that it was now giving my points to him it was absurd. I was not upset about the points. I was upset about that if he says something is, then it’s fact. If i say the same thing later he embarrasses me calling me out and implying I’m imagining things or overreacting and so on.
    When i told him i was frustrated he did this often, he disagreed. So i pointed out examples and in all scenarios it was different for him when he said it. I was not equal. He ranted on saying i should leave him he is a horrible person. (Sarcasm) then asked if i am ever happy. I suggested maybe he should consider my perspective. He changed the subject. Does this show lack of ability to be empathetic?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is certainly an indicator, yes.

      1. Oracle says:

        I confirmed it. He made a comment about how if something didn’t directly affect him he didn’t care about it. I gave a hypothetical of being in some distress and if he could see that i was in that distress and if so how he would respond. He said he would avoids me till it’s not a problem anymore. It’s not hurting him. He wants to keep it that way. Which in truth that is what he does most times. Or get angry. So if i understand correctly he has cognitive empathy but lacks the desire to give assistance or help stop the distress or to comfort.

    2. ava101 says:

      That is not the problem here if he is empathetic or not …

      1. Oracle says:

        ?

        1. ava101 says:

          The problem is his manipulative narc ways. Stay clear from them.
          No, they don’t care, if he doesn’t get anything out of it, he will stay away from any problems.

      2. Oracle says:

        Ava101. You said the problem is not empathy….what is it?

  7. foolme1time says:

    FYC
    I will try to answer your questions. My world has just been turned upside down, I had given up hope on ever finding answers to my questions. I have spent a lifetime being forced to do things that went against who and what I truly am! Always feeling different and never belonging anywhere,until yesterday when my beautiful sister Twilight gave me the answers I had been looking for. I am still absorbing all of this and my ET is running quite high.
    Before yesterday I thought with my greater it was attention that I was seeking. Today I believe it was his acceptance of those emotions and to finally have someone who needed them and understood them. The connection I myself do not understand at this time and I don’t know if I ever will. That connection was deeper then anything I ever felt in my whole life! The pain that I felt coming from inside of him was not from the person he is today. That pain was from someone else, the person he had been who is still in there. I felt fear, and tiredness also coming from him. Please understand when you talk of science and genes I understand what you are saying but I cannot wrap my head around it, It was not my head I was thinking with. I was not thinking, I was feeling. I did not feel a need to heal him, instead I felt him scared and hurt, I felt a desire from him to be accepted, and also a fear to trust. He is tired and needs a place to lay where he can finally rest and find peace. These are some of the things I felt, I don’t know if this has helped you FYC and I apologize if it hasn’t. Take care.

    1. Twilight says:

      FM1T

      Thank you, I needed to hear it.

      Have you ever asked HG what school you belonged to?

      1. foolme1time says:

        You are welcome Twilight. Yes, I had the empath detector consult. My schools are quite mixed, but I do have a strong percentage of Contagion. Which I had know idea when I received the results what Contagion even was. Since it was recorded audio, I couldn’t ask him. So I concentrated on learning about the other schools, which only led to more questions in my mind!🤦🏼‍♀️ So I booked a consult with HG ( which is next week) to learn how these different schools either work together or how they may negatively impact each other to create total chaos inside of my mind!

    2. FYC says:

      FM1T, yes, it does help. I never knew at the time about the scientific factors involved (that came only in the last month after reading an HG post and researching the matter further).

      It seems like your deep bond with your narcissist was forged through his need for fuel (your beautiful emotions) and your need for belonging and finding acceptance in a romantic bond. I have no doubt for a period of time your bond was as deeply significant as possible for you both. The problem is, for you, that is very deep indeed. For him, his defenses reject intimacy, so his connection could only meet the depth of his limits. Any attempt of connection beyond this would likely be experienced as threatening or suffocating and distancing behaviors (devaluation, malice) would ensue.

      FM1T, I do believe you were picking up on his original pain. You sensed it, but love did not affect it. Your giving heart is probably one reason why you crossed your boundaries. You also seem to be quite excellent at being hard on yourself so you likely took blame when the blame was not yours. I really cannot know, but given the input, this is as close as I can guess. I hope you find peace with the fact that you acted from a true heart. We all make mistakes. This one hurt you deeply. But you will find your way.

      1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

        FYC any mistakes in spelling or grammar in this comment is all your fault! The tears will not stop! You spoke of the bond between my greater and myself. I honestly cannot ever let myself believe he felt any type of bond! As beautiful as that sounded, I cannot let my ET get hold of me about this. It took months to convince myself that I was nothing to him except a little bit of fuel, that he has moved on and has found his new supply. I am sure at times he cannot even remember my name. I know you understand why I must think this way! I am glad my answers helped you. I love the way you write, it is you FYC, you can see in your writing the interest in science, the logic and intelligence that you have, the need to research and find the answers. You can also see the compassion and feelings of hurt and understanding that you have for others, the kindness that you show, and also your sense of humor. You are a beautiful person, I am so happy you have HG and the answers and knowledge that you needed. 😘

        1. FYC says:

          FM1T, I had to laugh at your comment, “FYC any mistakes in spelling or grammar in this comment is all your fault! ” Is that empath blame shifting? 😜 😂

          My intent was not to cause you pain whatsoever. You can have a bond with anyone, be it positive or negative. A bond represents strong, subjective feelings that create a connection between two people. In scholarly research, positive and negative valence is used to describe the perceptional influence of any object, event or behavior/interaction. So, at the time you met, you perceived the bond as positive. As time passed, although the subject remained the same, behaviors changed. These changes influenced experience and shifted your perception to negative.

          Given all HG has taught us, it is predictable that a relationship with a narcissist (from the narcissist’s perspective) must change from positive to negative in order to maintain fuel requirements (as well as to meet the prime aims). The narcissism defense mechanism must be supported and defended at all times. Unfortunately, genuine intimacy is not possible with someone in a highly defended state (as this would ignite deep fears). My guess is that when a narcissist feels your understanding and acceptance along with fuel, if you were to get too close, defenses would come to the fore and distancing would commence.

          FM1T, the important take-away is not that you “were nothing but a bit of fuel.” This characterization is limiting and self defeating to your self worth/self esteem. I would suggest this instead: There was you (authentically giving love and support) and there was the narcissist (highly defended and not capable of returning authentic love and support, and therefore relied upon N construct to navigate his fears). In other words, what you put forward was genuine and valuable. What the narcissist put forward was a constructed best self, not a real self. You fell in love with a perception you had no way of knowing (initially) was artifice.

          So go easy on yourself! Never let another define who you are. If it helps, you can forgive the narcissist (as a way of releasing yourself), because the narcissist knows no other way to navigate life (it was nothing to do with you, everything to do with him/her). There is literally nothing you could have done or not done to change him or the outcome of your relationship. I believe we are all unique and valuable, but some humans have issues that supersede their ability to give and receive love and intimacy.

          Thank you, FM1T for your sweet, empathetic heart and for your very generous compliments. You are most benevolent (another synonym for the “k” word! Keep it up and I’ll find a bunch more!) 😉

          1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            FYC, synonyms are not allowed either! Lol. Thank you for always brightening my day! I’m sure there will come a time when I can finally make sense of all that is going on in my mind and also my heart! Please know that I will read and reread what you have just written. Thank you!😘

          2. FYC says:

            Lol, FM1T, You are quite welcome.

      2. foolme1time says:

        FYC, since I was unable to sleep much last night, I once again reread the comments you had sent to me. I must tell you that if you are not in the psychology field, well then you should be! Reading the part of my narcissist only accepting a certain amount of intimacy before he started to pull back was I believe spot on! I think the line that they draw for intimacy is so they can obtain the fuel that they need. As it is HGs first lesson to us “ It’s all about the fuel”. Anytime they believe they may slip under that line which is more probable of happening in the golden period with a new ipps in place, they withdraw, or decide they have given us enough depending on where you sit on the fuel matrix, which is a survival technique that they have in place preventing them from either being hurt once again, or using more fuel then they will eventually get in return. I believe it also depends on where you sit on the fuel matrix as to the amount of intimacy they will give to you, an example of this would be they would give far more to a new ipps then they would a ipss, or a dls. Also in thinking about this further, intimacy is something they could do without completely if there was another option out there for them to obtain that amount of fuel from. I had never thought of it this way before and it has helped me find a better understanding of what had taken place. Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge with me, it is greatly appreciated! 😘🙃

        1. FYC says:

          Hi FM1T, No, I am not professionally involved in the field of psychology, but I have read a great deal of scholarly research in the areas of human behavioral psychology and relational psychology to increase my own knowledge base. I have a good mind and love acquiring knowledge. Given many of the comments on this blog, I am sure this is not uncommon. When we understand what is at play and achieve acceptance through knowledge, we have more options to take appropriate actions to achieve our desired goals in life.

          As for your comments on the narcissist and intimacy, I would say it is not possible for a narcissist to engage in true intimacy. They can give an IPPS preference/priority in accordance with the fuel supply they provide. This may include, time, attention, physical contact, gifts, communication, etc. Real intimacy would entail dropping their defense mechanism and becoming vulnerable to love and their true self–far too great a risk for a narcissist as this would equate to coming face to face with the life threatening fears that ignited the construct originally. Add to this the fact that the majority of narcissists do not know they are narcissists, and you can see it would be impossible to abolish a construct that is not perceived to exist! The few narcissists that are aware see not advantage to do so either. The construct is perceived as a positive as it both protects and meets the narcissists needs.

          Just wanted to clarify the intimacy issue so that no one would believe that real intimacy was possible within the construct of narcissism.

          1. foolme1time says:

            FYC, Thank you once again for such an intelligent and well thought out answer! 😘

          2. FYC says:

            FM1T, Your compliments are so very nice and plentiful, I am being challenged to find more words for your gracious and charitable sentiments! You have a sweet soul. But, please stop because I have run out of synonyms for the “k” word!!! 🤣😂😘💞

        2. pavotdeschamps says:

          You ladies (Twilight, FYC, FM1T) are shedding so much light on what I have experienced. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

          FM1T you wrote :

          «Also in thinking about this further, intimacy is something they could do without completely if there was another option out there for them to obtain that amount of fuel from.»

          Yes, there is, and I believe this is the modus operandi of my narc (possibly an UMRE, to be confirmed later on today by HG). I believe he gets his supply through several IPSS. He triangulated me with another coworker (possibly an ex) and was careful not to have us attend the same meetings. Once, I showed up at a meeting I had not confirmed my presence prior to attending and that was most enlightening. Whether he operates through hypnosis or magic spells, that I don’t know, but he is able to plug his tendrils into his victims and suck the life force out of them. There must have been «blinding dust» hanging in the air at that meeting but what I had perceived there became much clearer once I got out. She was sitting, her body turned towards him with her legs slightly spread apart. She had a strange look on her face. Let just say that she was not herself for the most part of that meeting. Furthermore, as we were leaving, he stood near me and tried to plug his tendrils into me. He cannot do this anymore. I took care of it. When he tries to do so, I feel a very negative energy coming from him, something like a force that is bottled up. I have to remove myself from his vicinity when he does that.

          All narcs need not be sorcerers also, but I wanted to share this in case that might be of any help to someone out there.

          1. foolme1time says:

            Pavo, thank you for your input, I take all information that I get from this special place very seriously. If I cannot find some way for it to help me, then I am sure it will help someone. Thank you so very much! 🌻

      3. pavotdeschamps says:

        FYC

        « As for feeling the narcissists pain, are you referring to their buried pain that ignited the defense mechanism of narcissism long ago?

        Looking back, I have ‘seen’ (felt deeply–not intellectually analyzed) behind the façade to the original pain in all of the narcissists I knew well (one romantically and several non-romantically) and it triggered a deep empathetic response in me. Yet if I addressed my perception openly, the query was either denied or the subject changed. My impulse was to heal their original injury, yet I now know this cannot be done for several reasons. »

        For the benefit of FM1T, I have seen terror in the eyes of my narc. It was excruciatingly painful to look at. I had to shut my eyes. I don’t know if I witnessed his original pain or his subsequent fear of intimacy, or both.

        1. FYC says:

          Hello pavotdeschamps, Thank you for sharing your experience. Of course, I would have no way of knowing, but I would guess if you saw terror, it was an echo of pain and fear experienced long ago, brought to try fore by a trigger.

    3. WhoCares says:

      Foolme1time,

      Pardon my jumping in but I have been reading – in amazement – the exchange between you and Twilight…and I just wanted to say how happy I am for you; to see you find answers you’ve long been seeking and watching part of your story unfold right before our very eyes.
      So amazing to have witnessed this; very brave of you to ask the questions that you asked and very gracious of Twilight to share her knowledge in confirmation of what you suspected.

  8. Evelyn Baker says:

    This brings up a question for me HG. My recent mid range narc would cry like a baby with any sad thing on TV. Also in stories he’d share from his own life. And a little delayed response when I would share something sad after a blank stare. Theae tears I believe were because he felt like he should something besides staring. But the others, i wonder. He could cry so easily, so unashamedly, with tears and tears. He seem like he was on the verge of tears a great deal of time. Can you explain this for me? I have heard sometimes the narc is just crying for themselves. Is this the case? He would have trouble with scary violent movies too. He seemed ultra sensitive. Was this just a show? He liked to think he was an extremely caring and empathic person.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      In some instances it is crying for himself – his frustration, sense of impotence, feeling vilified and powerless. In others it is façade management.

  9. foolme1time says:

    Twilight please ignore my typos in my last comment. Once again I typed and just hit the reply button, without checking what I had wrote.

  10. foolme1time says:

    Twilight, you can also sense death? I thought there has been something so terribly wrong with me all of these years! I have had experiences where I am told most often from Doctors and surgeons a certain person is or will be ok or heal. But I know different! I can sense it. I have only ever told one other person about these things. I have kept this hidden for so many years. So many other things I don’t understand? I was at a funeral yesterday, a friend of mine his father passed away. My friends two young daughters were there who I am extremely close to. The youngest is six the older one 10. The hurt and emotion these two girls went through I could barely handle being seated a few pews back. After the service I was ask to stand with the family. As the honor guard stepped forward the older of the two girls ran to me! The pain that I felt from that little girl almost took me to my knees! I continued to hold her taking all of this pain in. I was so exhausted until I returned home that I couldn’t see straight, I laid down and began to shake and cry uncontrollably! I feel asleep for four hours yesterday afternoon which is something I never do. Even today I can feel my emotions are all over the place. I have always been able to feel things from others, but lately it is even stronger and I don’t know what to do?

    1. Twilight says:

      FM1T

      Don’t worry I am not a grammar nazi, autocorrect hits me all the time that leaves me 🤦‍♀️.

      You are becoming more aware that is all, anyone that is HSP will experience this. Those that are not HSP will experience something similar as they become more sensitive to the energy that surrounds us.

      1. foolme1time says:

        Twilight
        How have you learned to separate your own feelings and emotions from the emotions and feelings of others? I have always thought since I was a little girl that there was something wrong with me! An elderly couple who lived next door watched me for a short time while my parents worked, I was very close to them. One late afternoon he came to the door wanting my Mother to drive to the hospital with them, his wife had a stroke which know one knew at the time. My Mother suggested that I go with them instead! The three of us were in the front seat of the car, her in the middle between us. She was slumped over towards me with her head hanging on my shoulder, I remember looking down at her she was drooling and it was running down my shirt! As I looked up from my shirt and looked at her face she was looking at me, that’s when I sensed it. I don’t know how to put in words what I feel, but I will try. It’s as if something or someone enters my mind, no words are spoken my body doesn’t shake or go into spasms! Actually it is very calm and it passes through me, leaving me with that image or knowledge that this person is going to die. As we arrived at the hospital I was scared out of my mine, people came out with a stretcher and took her inside. Her husband and I followed, I didn’t tell anyone what had just happened and I guess they assumed the state I was in was due to her being so very sick! My parents came to pick me up later on that evening. As I sat with her husband waiting for them and the doctors to come and talk to him, I knew I would never be able to tell him what I felt. When the Doctors finally came out and told him she had a stroke, but that she was stable and should be ok, I stared at them in disbelief! I went home with my parents that night and the next day once everyone said she was going to be fine but she suffer some damage to her right arm and leg. I thought at that time maybe I was wrong in what I felt? Perhaps it was just my childhood imagination running on overdrive? But that was not the case! Three days after that drive to the hospital she passed away! I thought It was my fault! Maybe if I would of told someone they could have stopped it from happening? I remember being sick right after that and not being able to attend the funeral. Honestly, I was consumed with guilt! This was the first time I sensed death. It wouldn’t be my last. I have only ever told this story to one other person, and that has only been just recently.

      2. foolme1time says:

        Twilight
        I feel very dumb for asking this! What is HSP? I honestly have no clue. 🤦🏼‍♀️

        1. Twilight says:

          FM1T

          First do not speak death into your soul, you do not feel dumb, you don’t understand.
          HSP is Highly sensitive person it is either a learned sensitivity from living in an a abusive environment or one is naturally HSP. Within an abusive environment it becomes instinctive to identify visual and/or audio cue to be able to adapt to the environment. Few are naturally HSP.

          1. foolme1time says:

            Twilight,
            Thank you so much! Now at least I have something to call it, and also someone who understands. I have had this with me for so long that to finally know it has a name; I am actually speechless and cannot comment anymore about it right now. Thank you dear Twilight, Thank you so very much! A’ Ho’

          2. foolme1time says:

            Twilight,
            First of all thank you from the bottom of my heart for giving me the answers to questions I have had my entire life! Those answers explain so much to me now, seeing and feeling things others were not able to do, feeling shaken and exhausted after being in a situation with a lot of people and noise, the need to be with nature and feeling it heal me from the inside out, feeling the energy inside of me and the energy of others, why when standing and talking to a young man who had seizures ( which I would have no way of knowing) did I see a great flash of light, the room seemed to be spinning and I went down only to be saved by two co workers who was standing beside me and caught me before I hit the floor, etc.etc. I have thought about this one most of the night, why when being involved with narcissists especially the greater I was involved with do I feel such a connection to them? Why can I feel emotions ( especially feelings of hurt) coming from inside of them when they are suppose to have no such emotions? Why was it only the greater who could handle my over abundance of emotion? These are only a few of the things I thought of last night. I have so much to learn and absorb at this time, but at least now thanks to you, I have a starting place! Know longer do I feel alone in all of this, no longer do I feel cursed, or as some have called me a witch. I will never be able to thank you enough Dear Twilight for what you have just done for me! Mitakye Oyassin, We’re All Family. Take care. 🐺

          3. Twilight says:

            FM1T

            To the Creator, for the ultimate gift of life, I thank you.

            To the mineral nation that has built and maintained my bones and all foundations of life experience, I thank you.

            To the plant nation that sustains my organs and body and gives me healing herbs for sickness, I thank you.

            To the animal nation that feeds me from your own flesh and offers your loyal companionship in this walk of life, I thank you.

            To the human nation that shares my path as a soul upon the sacred wheel of Earthly life, I thank you.

            To the Spirit nation that guides me invisibly through the ups and downs of life and for carrying the torch of light through the Ages. I thank you.

            To the Four Winds of Change and Growth, I thank you.

            You are all my relations, my relatives, without whom I would not live. We are in the circle of life together, co-existing, co-dependent, co-creating our destiny. One, not more important than the other. One nation evolving from the other and yet each dependent upon the one above and the one below. All of us a part of the Great Mystery.

            Thank you for this Life.

          4. Twilight says:

            HG

            What happened to the link I added to that prayer?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            The spam monster ate it Twilight as it referred to a blog.

          6. Twilight says:

            Hmmm I wasn’t endorsing just providing where I got it.

            Spam monster….I envisioned a can of spam on a leash…..disgusting want a be meat.

            Hey does this get a naughty step with my name on it now?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            No naughty step, inadvertent transgression.

          8. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            May Mother Earth guide your feet.
            May Father Sky keep his arms around you.
            May Grandfather Sun warm your cold days.
            May Grandmother Moon keep the glow in your heart.
            May the Star Nations light the way to the next destination, and the
            Great Spirit always keep you shielded from the pain.
            A’ Ho my Sister

          9. Twilight says:

            FM1T

            God you taking me back to a time I left so long ago.

            I wish my mentor was here she was the mother I didnt have.

            I sing what I believe is a prayer I learned long before my mentor my Great Grandmother on the Norwegian side would sing to me I am not sure what it means yet it brings a sense of peace over me and my granddaughter when I sing it to her.

          10. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            Your mentor is there, she is all around you. Feel her and embrace her, she will help you find that peace.
            I believe we took each other back to a time we both left a long time ago. I also have a song, it is the Cherokee morning song, I taught it to the little girl I told you about that was at the funeral yesterday. She was two when she learned that song. Thank you for helping me to remember those beautiful times. Don’t stop singing.

          11. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            Since talking with you yesterday about long ago times, I have decided to use the things from those times to help myself heal and learn. I’ve contacted the Spirit Chief of the village to see if he still did a Lenape ( sweat lodge) every month. That was one thing because of the way I am I was always frightened or concerned about doing. I believe it’s time for me to face those fears. I also contacted some people about doing a smudging ceremony this weekend, I am going to use the prayer that you have sent me as the opening prayer. I will be thinking of you at that time and every day after that( as I pray to creator) until you return. Please be safe and use what you know to heal and find peace once again. I feel that your empath, once he has time to go through all that as happed between the of you will also face his fears and will return to you with an open mind and also the want and need to discover who you truly are. Thank you for being that person who finally after years of never understanding, has finally given me the answers that I have been looking for! A’Ho my Sister Twilight. 😘 🐺

          12. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            May the peace of the white buffalo who roamed our nations so gallantly and free be with you.
            A’ Ho, WBM 🐺

          13. HG Tudor says:

            What is this? An episode of Bonaza?

          14. foolme1time says:

            No HG not Bonanza.

          15. foolme1time says:

            You actually have heard of Bonanza HG? That’s impressive for someone that is only 29! 🙃

          16. HG Tudor says:

            I have also heard of the Battle of Hastings and that was in 1066 but I am not a thousand years old. It’s called having a vast appetite for information, knowledge and retaining it.

          17. foolme1time says:

            Big difference between the Battle of Hastings and Bonanza HG.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, several hundred years.

          19. foolme1time says:

            You are one funny man HG! I do believe you’ve missed you calling!

          20. HG Tudor says:

            I feel my inner Joe Pesci rising!

          21. foolme1time says:

            Pffft!

          22. HG Tudor says:

            I think you have a puncture FM1T.

          23. foolme1time says:

            Ok, I will give you that one! That was funny HG! Hahaha

          24. foolme1time says:

            HG, Is there not anyone else that you have to torment, other then me?

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Torment? This is a tickle. I am turning a minion round on a spit roast as I type though.

          26. foolme1time says:

            OMG! He’s on a roll today!! There’s another good one!

          27. foolme1time says:

            HG, I do believe this is the first time you have not triggered any ET in me! Perhaps it is because I am getting use to you being a pompous ass? 🙃

          28. HG Tudor says:

            I am neither pompous nor an ass. Being correct does not equate with pomposity. Being able to recognise you are wrong when you receive the evidence and explanation rather than resorting to a baseless ad hominem comment is the application of logic.

          29. foolme1time says:

            There is the HG that I know and love! 🙃😘

          30. foolme1time says:

            You are not pompous or an ass HG! I was just pulling your chain! 🥰

          31. HG Tudor says:

            We have reached an accord.

          32. foolme1time says:

            Indeed we have HG. 🙃

          33. foolme1time says:

            HG, What was your major when you were at University? Also do you have a masters degree?

          34. HG Tudor says:

            We do not major, we graduate. Yes, I have a master’s degree.

          35. foolme1time says:

            Thank you HG.

          36. foolme1time says:

            Is your degree in the profession that you now work?

          37. HG Tudor says:

            No.

          38. foolme1time says:

            Ok HG, I know you are not going to tell me what your degree is in. Thank you for the answers that you could give me.

          39. foolme1time says:

            Just for the record HG, you started it this time, not I!

          40. foolme1time says:

            Have I told you that I’ve missed you HG?

          41. foolme1time says:

            Apparently your vast appetite was not very hungry about Native American Culture?

          42. HG Tudor says:

            Big Chief Running Deer says ‘Um, yes.’

          43. foolme1time says:

            Amazing how you gave yourself a name with, Big and Chief in it! But of course you, wouldn’t you?

          44. HG Tudor says:

            I wasn’t referring to me. The Injuns lost. I don’t lose, FM1T.

          45. foolme1time says:

            Sorry to inform you of this HG, When the Native people lost, we all lost!

          46. HG Tudor says:

            Balls to that.

          47. foolme1time says:

            Is that the best you can come up with! Hahaha

          48. foolme1time says:

            Did you really write Injuns?!

          49. HG Tudor says:

            No, you are imagining things FM1T!

          50. foolme1time says:

            Oh ,ok HG I’m imagining it! You’d think you could do better then that!

          51. Twilight says:

            FM1T

            Thank you.

            I can not stop my tears, as I read they began to fall.

            “He has just lost out on a remarkable, amazing, women!”

            And then reading this.

          52. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            I knew! I could feel it in the words you wrote. You were sent to me by Creator! Thank you.

            Creator up above
            You are there
            Have Pity on the people
            Who are praying
            A’ Ho

          53. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            I knew and did not know how to reach out to you. Creator knew. 🐺

          54. Twilight says:

            FM1T

            That just scared the shit out of me.
            Your not the first to say something similar to me.

          55. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            You know you must follow it then, we both know what happens when we don’t. I having to learn that without knowing why at the time. I now know, because of you! 🐺

          56. FYC says:

            FM1T, I hope you don’t mind the intrusion of a few questions.

            Do you think the connection you felt to your greater is the fulfillment of matched needs? His need for your emotions/fuel and your need to have your emotions accepted/needed?

            As for feeling the narcissists pain, are you referring to their buried pain that ignited the defense mechanism of narcissism long ago?

            Looking back, I have ‘seen’ (felt deeply–not intellectually analyzed) behind the façade to the original pain in all of the narcissists I knew well (one romantically and several non-romantically) and it triggered a deep empathetic response in me. Yet if I addressed my perception openly, the query was either denied or the subject changed. My impulse was to heal their original injury, yet I now know this cannot be done for several reasons.

            When abuse and pain threatens the existence of self in a child, defense and coping mechanisms are required for survival. The developing mind is literally changed by the experience (different genes are expressed and various synapses are created or not created). Perhaps the field of epigenetics will one day offer new insight.

          57. Twilight says:

            FYC

            When I first started commenting here (under DFA) i stated I believed they could modify their behaviors in a consult with HG I told him even he triggered my want to heal him. Even thou I logically knew it was impossible my ET did start to kick in. HG gave me time to work that one out and “used” him till I gain a better grip on separating that desire from emotion to logic I can say that was an interesting consult and one I believe I began to reveal I was a Contagion and not a different school. Which was another consult going into why I believe I have that specific trait.

            I apologize I am trying to distract myself from what I want to do, I have been triggered in a way I wish I wasn’t.

          58. FYC says:

            Thank you for sharing that, Twilight.

            Have you body surfed? As a wave comes to topple you, you duck under the wave and emerge on the calm side. When you ride a wave, you are caught up in the momentum of its energy until it passes. It is wise to carefully choose which waves to duck and which waves to ride to avoid the rocks or a rip current. If you do end up in a rip current, you swim aside it until you are past it. When you are tired, float in the calm spaces between the waves until you are ready to make your next move. Your emotions are like the ocean. Perhaps the same strategy might assist you in navigating your deeper experience with emotions. You may not be able to walk on shore away from your deep emotions, but I feel certain with your skills you can navigate the water. I hope so. I am sending you all the calm, positive energy I can muster 😉

          59. foolme1time says:

            FYC
            You are one awesome lady!! 😘

          60. FYC says:

            FM1T, You are so…sweet! In honor of your sensitivity I am avoiding the use of the “K” word! Thank you😘

          61. Fool Me 1 Time says:

            Hahaha! The sense of humor I have just wrote about FYC! You will see it? 🙃

        2. FYC says:

          Highly Sensitive Person

          1. foolme1time says:

            Thank you FYC. 🤗

          2. lisk says:

            FYC – Your body surfing analogy/advice is an amazing one, and reading your post was an “Aha!” moment for me.

            I love to body surf and I totally get it about “carefully choosing which waves.” I never thought about how I could consciously apply this method to real-life situations, mainly because choosing those water waves are second nature and not conscious decisions.

            I hope to make wave-choosing second nature in real life.

            Thank you.

          3. FYC says:

            Hi Lisk, Sorry I missed your comment. Thank you for your generous compliment, you are welcome!

            I find it very helpful to be aware of my strong emotions. I know when I am triggered. When I was younger, I was far more influenced by each wave.

            Over time, I learned to quickly engage logic (make the decision to ride the wave or duck under). This affords me far more energy to ride any wave and also keeps me from exhaustion. Engaging logic and reason when feeling emotions is key to finding peace.

            It is equally important not to get sucked into a rip current. The tumult of the currents will sap your strength and risk your well being. So avoidance of involvement in such turmoil is key to preservation of well being also.

            I wish you much success in your future emotional body surfing ;)🤙

      3. Narc noob says:

        Twilight, I hope you can’t sense all those things, ie death, illness, here online as well. Argh! What a nightmare.

        Feeling another’s grief and pain, their frustration, can be overwhelming. I sometimes look around and wonder why nobody else is moving uncomfortably in their seat. I asked HG a question concerning that on this thread actaully, my narcissistic trait of wanting to avoid it or play it down (I can’t see it yet maybe it’s still in moderation).

    2. Oracle says:

      If you get an answer let me know. I can get sucked down quickly by emotion around me. I too find myself exhausted for days after something like your description.

      1. foolme1time says:

        Oracle, As Twilight mentioned in one of her comments, I am becoming more aware to what has been happening to me for a very long time. If you can, to be sure you should take HGs empath consult. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

        1. Oracle says:

          Thank you foolme1time. I plan to. everything is in the planning stages for me right now. i am trying to get free. it is taking time. i have myself in quite a mess. thank you for your suggestion. i hope your doing well with your new found information and that your made whole again.

          1. foolme1time says:

            Oracle there is no one better then HG to help you plan an escape! His great knowledge is unsurpassed by anyone else in this area! As far as my new information, it has left me a bit confused and frightened for what I still have to learn. But I will take it one day at a time. Thank you for asking.

          2. Oracle says:

            i too can relate to how you feel about what i am learning. It can be overwhelming some days.

      2. foolme1time says:

        Oracle I did not want you to think I did not want to help you. When I first found HG, it was because I needed to know why the men I attracted were all alike in so many ways. I discovered so much more. I have lived with these feelings from such an early age and finally finding out that I am not the only one has truly left me an emotional mess. I am not sure if pursuing this is the right thing for me to do? I have been told by many on here to take care of myself first, this is something that is very hard for me to do! But it is time that I try. The information and knowledge that HG has given us is just as remarkable as the man himself, if you truly want to know and learn about yourself then he is the one to turn to. He can give you the answers that you seek, I cannot. I hope you find the peace that you so deserve dear Oracle, I am still searching for mine. 🌻

        1. Oracle says:

          i understand follme1time. i am not offended or feel rejected or slighted. it is the appropriate response upon reflecting on my what i said. I do want you to know i relate, and as you stated your not alone in how you feel. 🙂

          1. foolme1time says:

            Thank Oracle, you are also not alone! 🥰

  11. FYC says:

    Emotional empathy is like having a 6th sense. It offers input sometimes before, always during and always after an event. It also helps provide insight about people. I experience a large amount of contagion empathy. It is always present. I believe this helps explain why random people are often drawn to me to share their stories as described in the magnet cadre. I do not have the degree of contagion that leads to physically illness and complete overwhelm that Twilight has described, so I do not belong to the contagion cadre. I once met a person who claimed to be a psychic tell me I had psychic abilities. I don’t think so. I believe she was experiencing my emotional empathy.

    1. Twilight says:

      FYC

      I am only overwhelmed when my own emotions are triggered which I have learned to keep separate from what I feel from the outside. I am connected to them not attached to them.
      I can feel illness within a person , it is not an ability I have honed yet one I am working on and what natural remedies can help.
      I know when death is close to someone.

      I believe we all possess a degree of “magic” within if we can hone our abilities to be connected.

      1. FYC says:

        Twilight,

        Thank you so much for your added insight. It sounds like you have developed amazing control with your gift. I hope it affords you a measure of peace when you create that separation. Your degree of emotional empathy and magic are very interesting. While it may be a burden, I imagine it is also a gift to many. I agree honing of awareness and abilities leads to greater connection from within to without.

        1. Twilight says:

          FYC

          It is a blessing for others and a curse for me. The closer I get to someone the more attuned I am with them as the energy combines they can become overwhelmed if they do not understand what is happening henceforth I consume them….I can never attach/bind to someone and I usually push them away before I hurt them. Or I bind myself to a narcissist that can absorb the energy I focus onto them and live a life in purgatory dying a slow and painful death.

          It would take an Empath man that understands himself with a desire to understand me and my needs. Meeting his needs would not be an issue and second nature for me.

          1. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            I understand why you do not see it as a gift! I am know where near what you are and have always felt I was cursed! Maybe that’s one of the reasons I’m attracted to narcissists? They can handle my energy? I’m sorry the one that has just hurt you did not take the time to understand you! He has just lost out on a remarkable, amazing, women!

          2. shesaw says:

            Twilight, I’m curious, did you do energy work? Few years back I have done a few courses with a very down-to-earth teacher, and it has brought me a lot of insight and relief, especially on ‘separating energies’ and exploring my own tendency to instinctively connect to (aspects of) others. I found it really helpful. It gave me something like ‘a grip’/a ‘how to handle’. I never digged deeper than those few courses though. It think it was enough at that time.

            You wrote about the pain it causes you to be you. I hope you have found or will find something that works for you, something or someone who will help to soothe your extra sensitivity.

          3. Twilight says:

            Shesaw

            Yes I am.

            My training started at a young age with my mentor.

          4. FYC says:

            Twilight, I am sorry you experience your abundance of empathy as a curse at times, but I can understand why.

            I cannot sense illness or death in a stranger. I do not possess your vast skill set. I also do not fountain like a geyser empath. I am naturally logical which offers a very beneficial balance to my emotions. Although emotions and logic are complementary, they are not directly linked. I feel first then engage analysis. If I react on impulse to my feelings before engaging logic, I can put myself at risk. Over the past several years I have gotten far better at delaying my responses and this protects me.

            Twilight, I do hope you find an empathetic man that can appreciate your way of life yet not become overwhelmed by it, versus a future of more narcissists because of the obvious drawbacks.

            I wonder what you could do with your skills that would be beneficial for you and others? A way to release your empathetic energy without being capsized by it? I sure wish I could offer any suggestions, but I have no idea. At least you have a safe place here to release a bit of pressure from your emotional valve.

          5. Twilight says:

            FYC

            I will never be with another narcissist.

            I have felt what it is like to be in the arms of an Empath man, I hope with time he sees for himself. I tried to explain to him as truthfully as I could with out letting the fear speak for me. He knew I was hurt deeply by my ex he just didn’t know he was a sociopath (he was diagnosed) I was triggered by something and guilt for something I did yet wasn’t in the wrong by my perspective yet his it was then I tried to get him to understand forcefully and I know better. I had made myself vulnerable to him and became scared when I saw something which triggered me.

            I have cut everything out of my life at the moment and thinking about leaving the blog for an extended time.
            I need simple and to be around those who know me, who will help me, nature…..the basics.

            It is one reason why I have been so open recently because I know it is coming.

          6. foolme1time says:

            Twilight
            I will be with you as the waves gently wash upon your feet, as you feel the wind blowing through your hair, and as that water mischievously tries to pull you off balance as it returns to the sea, that will be me reminding you that you also must return. 😪
            A’ Ho 🐺😘

          7. mommypino says:

            Twilight, I’m sorry that your sensitivity and empathy sometimes cause you pain. I think that you are right about making it simple and indulging in nature. For me a little hiking here or even small tasks like gardening or observing the simplicity in the body movements or animals and my two little kids put my mind in an upbeat and positive mood. I always enjoy reading your posts as you are one of the commenters where I learn a lot from even if I don’t join the conversation. If you decide to leave I trust that you know what feels best for you and I will still look forward to your visits here at the blog.

          8. Twilight says:

            Mommypino

            Thank you. I just saw this. I am a little overwhelmed by the comments I have read in regards to me.

          9. FYC says:

            Twilight, If it is supportive of your well being to leave, I support you in your decision. Take good care of yourself. I believe you will heal and find a way to ‘safely’ coexist with your deep empathetic skills. I wish you much love and joy in your future.

          10. pavotdeschamps says:

            Twilight

            I had this fantasy that your avatar name would change from Twilight to Dawn… Wishing you the desired light flooding from above into your life. Thank you for reaching out to me on that other post.

          11. Twilight says:

            Pavotdechamps

            I almost change my name to Dawn I believe almost a year ago. It was Twilight/Dawn

    2. mommypino says:

      FYC, one of the reasons that I used to wonder if I am a Mid-ranger is because I do not feel empathy instantly. Sometimes I do but a lot of times there is a lag where I process it in my brain, relate it with my previous experience or put myself in that shoe, and then I feel empathy. It’s like the cognitive empathy is usually instrumental before I could feel genuine sorrow or joy for what the other person is experiencing. It is easier for me to empathize with other people’s joy, success, or laughter. That is almost instantaneously with me like contagious. But when it comes to people who are going through a hardship, if I am not familiar with their experience (especially since I lived a goody two shoes lifestyle), I have to rely very much on cognitive empathy to be able to empathize, and sometimes due to my inexperience it falls short and then it makes me feel bad. But now I know that I am not a narc because HG told me so. ☺️ I just think that it’s interesting how our degrees of empathy and ways of processing empathy can be different for all of us. I am fascinated with other empath’s abilities to feel contagion empathy like you and Twilight. You probably have extra sensitive mirror neurons or something else in your brain or physiological anatomy that enables you to experience that.

      1. FYC says:

        Hi Mommypino, I hope you enjoyed your weekend! When I first learned about narcissism, I too worried I might be one because I have familial narcissists and also have narcissistic traits such as confidence (in who I am and in my professional skills), self reliance (I am very independent), pride (I take pride in my personal growth progress and satisfaction from my professional accomplishments). I was afraid of what could lie in my blind spot. I took a test and scored below average on the narcissism scale with the exception of self reliance and self confidence (which scored average range, higher end). A self report test is never perfect, but combined with the fact I have abundant emotional empathy; value honesty, decency and kindness (and practice them regularly); love deeply and live a life of gratitude and joy confirms for me I am not a narcissist. When I first heard the term empath it was an ah ha moment, because it explained so much. After reading HG, I found all of my answers and it really set me free. I only wish I knew all of this years ago.

        Mommypino, I trust you know yourself best, but hope you don’t mind indulging an outside opinion on your empathy. From what I have seen here, you are very empathetic and your emotions are not stunted. You have an inquisitive mind and value science and knowledge. My theory on what you experience with emotional empathy is a protective block or step back in immediate acceptance. This may have developed due to the abuse you suffered as a child (we discussed your experience with your mother a few months back–I used the screen name G.B.–I originally used different names to protect anonymity, but decided to do away with that approach). Your often cruel and shaming mother likely caused your reluctance to *immediately* embrace your emotional response (as this could easily induce further abuse or it simply made you feel unsafe). My guess is you possess it, you simply developed a ‘safer’ way to access it. For me, I feel my emotional empathy immediately and engage logic and reason (mostly) immediately following. So we are the same in reverse. 😉

        1. mommypino says:

          Thank you FYC. You are always so kind to me. I do remember when we talked about my mom and your name was already FYC. You gave me a really helpful advice on parenting my inner child. Thank you so much for being so kind to me that time. I really needed that and you made me feel so much better.

          I had a great weekend. My husband and I took a gun lesson and I really enjoyed it. It was my first time to hold a gun. Prior to that I have never even seen one up close. My husband used to hunt deers when he was young so he has experience even though he’s not into it. We have a shotgun at home but I have never seen it. My husband was a little annoyed because the instructor was picking on him that I kicked his butt. He said it’s because he was having a hard time with his glasses. I don’t wear glasses so I didn’t have anything bothering me. He almost didn’t want to go with me to the next lesson that I want to take next month. The instructor is a lady so she was obviously getting a kick the I got my targets better than him. We also released the butterflies and ladybugs that we raised from caterpillars and larvae last weekend. The kids had fun seeing them change. We got the kits from Insectlore.

          I also took the narcissism test but I scored really high but not enough to be as high as the average scores of celebrities who are highly narcissistic but not NPD. I was just one point below it. I got a really high score on grandiosity and moderately high score on exhibitionism, low score on manipulative tendencies and zero on the entitlement. I think there are times that I have entitlement but just not the examples asked in the questionnaire; they were too extreme. I think my high grandiosity is largely coming from being my matrinarc’s only child so I was sometimes her golden child (when I was not her scapegoat). She believed that I am naturally special and it got ingrained in my head as a way of thinking even though I have a realistic view about it it still became a natural attitude. I have learned to curb it down though. But I am the same with other traits, kindness, honesty and has a default attitude of gratefulness and joyful disposition. My husband often tells me because I tend to be naturally happy, “I love the world that you live in.” And I also love deeply. Just like you I love HG’s articles on empaths and I finally realize I’m not abnormal; I’m just an empath lol. I have always felt that I’m different and now I know I really am.

          I think that you’re right about your theory on how I process my empathy. I didn’t even think about it that way but I think that it is what’s going on. It’s like I have unconsciously developed a gate where before I allow the emotion in I have a few seconds of checking the ID first lol. Now that you have said it, my emotional empathy is instantaneous with people that I love and trust like my husband and kids. It does make sense that it has been my survival mechanism because how else can I keep getting things done when I was living with my mom if I allowed all of the empathic emotions to affect me. Like I was able to do school work while she was having a big fight with our neighbors with me only standing up to get involved if the neighbor threatens to physically attack her. I remember when she went home with her face full of bruises, cuts and her eyes were almost shut because she said that my favorite uncle beat her up. Although her story changed so many times, currently she said that he didn’t do it; it was his wife. But I remember acting so calmly and not letting it shake me up. So I think that you are so right. Thank you for helping me understand myself better. It really helps a lot. 💕

          1. Claire says:

            Nice post! Interesting how this becomes about so much more than what got us here! I am finding I was the golden child of a narcissistic father. A set up for dysfunction for sure. I have no idea how my brothers turned out normal—my dad would actually say they “were of no account.” Who the F**# does crap like that?? I excelled sure but he completely denigrated their existence. It’s no wonder I accepted bullshit for years. It was normal. My father mistreated my mother, he was a sick pervert… He threw money at me like candy and completely belittled everyone else. I appreciate you opening a dialogue about parents! What a process this is becoming.

          2. mommypino says:

            Thank you Claire. Indeed, it is a set up for dysfunction. It takes a lot of internal work to correct it. In my case, I hated when my mom would belittle my cousins while praising me because she was setting me up to be disliked by them. I have always wanted to excel but I just want it for my inner satisfaction and not so that she can brag about it. It gave me a weird feeling that whenever she bragged about what I have achieved in an excessive and offensive way, she was taking my achievement away from me and taking the joy out of achieving it. I started to tell her that I’m actually not smart and I would point out other kids that are smarter than me and I’m not that pretty and point out other girls that are prettier. It used to get her so angry at me. I ended up having a habit that of a narc or a competitive person in my life seems unhappy or uncomfortable with something that I am good at, I dummy down in order to appease them. Thankfully I have outgrown that but it took me quite a bit of self reflection to correct that and other bad habits that I got from being a Golden child. I’m so happy that your brothers turned out normal and happy. It was really hard what they had to put up with. They probably learned to tune him out. And it is wonderful that you have turned out to be a beautiful and empathic person yourself. Being a Golden child is hard in a different way. I love HG’s article that explained how being a Golden Child also takes control away from the child.

          3. Claire says:

            Awe thanks! I have empathic traits because HG has referred to as such in discussion but I wouldn’t go as far as saying “empathic” but I’m not a total jerk 90% of the time. I know that one of my brothers had/has a great father in law that filled the gap. The other brother was just born normal I think and he actually did one substantial “narcissistic” thing once—he left a girl pregnant in the Philippines but promptly made amends, married her, told everyone he had not been raised to be that person and he is now re-married (while amicable to his ex who we adore) and has raised children that are not his including paying for their university. He is absolutely adored, respectful, and I swear it was/would be a real eye brow raiser for being narcissistic but there are zero other obvious things and his children and wife adore him. Who knows?? What I do know is that I don’t hate my dad at all—he was brilliant, had interesting hobbies, etc. I simply see a substantial set of behaviors that scream narcissist absolutely and it’s not worth a discussion with my ailing mother etc. Plus my family would wonder why everyone is suddenly a narcissist as 1/6 is hard to swallow unless someone follows HG’s work and makes sense of it. He was unquestionably a narcissist. The thing I would like closure on is what was I seeing at times when emotion felt absolutely genuine and in appropriate response when there was not always obvious gain? Maybe for the sake of understanding better I would explore. I think the key is knowing his lack of boundaries and the tone in the home set me up for a lack of normalcy and I tolerated horrible mistreatment with no awareness after leaving the home. I was also set up with an almost arrogance re, my capabilities by being “golden” but it has never reached narcissistic proportions to where anyone has ever been hurt or I mistreat people. It’s just about so much more than “I was in a relationship with a narcissist.” I had a beer with a friend tonight and she kept looking at me (I could feel it) and commented I seem so much better. It’s the truth. This HG fellow is best narcissist out there!

          4. mommypino says:

            “ I think the key is knowing his lack of boundaries and the tone in the home set me up for a lack of normalcy and I tolerated horrible mistreatment with no awareness after leaving the home. I was also set up with an almost arrogance re, my capabilities by being “golden” but it has never reached narcissistic proportions to where anyone has ever been hurt or I mistreat people.”

            Claire, I have the same dissonance regarding my matrinarc. Even though she isn’t brilliant and she seemed to have some sadistic streak unlike your dad, there were a lot of times in my life that she did things that still make me believe that she may have loved me somehow. I know that narcissists do not love. But there have been so many times that she had put me ahead of her. It is very confusing. I wonder if the degrees of narcissism might be different for each narc. What if their narcissism, even though it has reached the NPD, is also in a sliding scale? I can totally relate to you thinking about that Claire regarding emotions that seem genuine. I also wonder if being Golden Children means the narcissist parents may view us as extension of themselves and therefore the pride (they don’t feel love) that they feel for themselves are extended to us?

            I also experienced the same inner arrogance regarding myself but it has also not reached narcissistic proportion because it was corrected by my external environment (school) and our ability to self reflect about the feedback (criticisms) from others gave us a chance to adjust it.

            I think I agree with you that your brother is not a narc. Getting someone pregnant and running away from it happens all the time with younger men. The important thing is he matured and took responsibility. That is a wonderful story.

            I love that your friend noticed that you are getting better. The truth sets us free and HG is the giver of truth in narcissism.

          5. Claire says:

            It has to be on a sliding scale—a friend just told me this morning that my husband’s behavior was unbelievably uncomfortable and bizarre at times. She lived next door to us for years—he was so arrogant and dismissive of people it added to my confusion and made people feel uncomfortable. He is incredibly hard to divorce and in fact, made a last minute demand for a continuance today for our appearance tomorrow in court. My attorney told his to f*#% himself and I’m just so tired. I am sick of attorney bills that are nonsense because it’s not necessary! He is pretty far on the spectrum for his school or whatever.. (as far as passive aggressive shenanigans) I just try to not think of it but it’s hard. He even piled my kids up in a hotel room last weekend with his girlfriend like they were South American refugees preparing to hit the border in a caravan. My kids were mortified—one sleeping on the floor—and he makes plenty of money! Unbelievable.
            Okay that probably perpetuates emotional thinking.. But.. Yes, my fathers behavior is perplexing to decipher. You are very intuitive and smart—you nailed some of the stuff re, pride etc. All of your posts are indicative of really “getting it!” I feel like I’m in the HG school for kids that don’t read good. It’s getting better though and I’m glad my friend could tell. It’s measurable but I was just so far beaten down even my cognition has taken time to replenish. It’s really an incredible thing what can happen.

          6. mommypino says:

            I’m sorry Claire that you’re going through that. They really are a pain in the ass. Some are worse and some are even malignant and sadistic. And by sadistic, it doesn’t just mean enjoying to see someone get hurt physically. Some enjoy to see people get hurt emotionally. I noticed with my husband that he’s always as cold as ice when dealing with his ex wife regarding their kids. Sometimes she say things that are obviously provocative and he would either not reply, or if he has to because it’s something about their kids (now it’s just about their special needs son because all of their kids are adults) he would only reply regarding the important matter in a cut and dried way and completely ignore the provocative part. I used to think of that as his weakness because I thought somebody needs to show her her place but now that I have read HG’s work I realize that it’s the best way to deal with that. Although it still sucks. And also my husband is a Normal and not an Empath so it’s easier for him. But the expenses on attorney fees is really frustrating. It’s terrible but NPDs would rather waste money on that just so that they will win. Just be careful because they have no bounds and will do everything to win or have an upper hand. Even lying about something that is so evil and completely baseless.

          7. Claire says:

            Your husband does what sounds like a lovely job dealing with her if she can be provocative. I have a hard time with communication. HG says not to have any and I know it’s best but the kids are 12, 11, and 9. I talked to him an hour ago due to my 12-year-old ordering hundreds of dollars in makeup from Ulta with my credit card. (no permission) HG would say no while laughing at me but my emotional thinking was high in the moment. Usually it doesn’t go well—but ironically this time wasn’t horrible. We agreed that her life will change once upon arriving home from school today at least. It may be all that is ever agreed on frankly. Why is a 12 year old a diva anyway? Why why?!! If she turns out to be a somatic narcissist I’m going to lose my mind.

          8. mommypino says:

            Claire, I know that you are very smart, it always shows with your posts, but just a friendly warning: don’t trust your ex hubby to follow through with agreements that you had. My husband experienced that with his ex through the years and I came to the picture towards the end of it when their youngest was turning 16. Although for my husband it will never really end because my stepson is special needs so they will always talk about him and taking care of him. It is even more frustrating when you believed that you have reached an agreement only to see that it’s as if you didn’t have an agreement.

          9. Claire says:

            No agreements just had to take her from him during his time so that she can start her 100 hours of hard labor:).

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Claire
            Just curious (if you care to expand of course). What did your daughter offer as to the reason for what she did, and how she was prepared to handle the outcome? Did she think you would just not notice the credit card charge? Or did she think it was necessary (to her) and you would be okay with it?

          11. Claire says:

            Hello NA! Her head is hung and eyes brimming with tears this past 24 hours. She is not accepting interviews it seems. She clearly isn’t processing outcomes effectively but as for her actual thought trajectory I just haven’t gotten there. She knows quite well what she did was unacceptable and knew when she did it—she’s too savvy to claim otherwise. I actually don’t worry she is demonstrating narcissism vs. being a narcissistically inclined kid. (If that makes sense) Many factors for this despite such a bold illustration. At any rate, learning the value of money is always a worthy lesson despite..

          12. mommypino says:

            😂

          13. mommypino says:

            Claire, thankfully your daughter is still really young. I remember I had a bully when I was 12 and she was just so awful and narcissistic. She saw me on Facebook a few years ago and she added me and at first I was aloof but she would always like my posts and comment on my pictures with nice comments. I looked at her profile and she seems to be a loving mom and wife now and her kids seem really happy. So some people can change as they mature. Maybe do some activities with her that will develop her empathy like volunteer in the soup kitchen together? Just kidding on the soup kitchen. But something along those lines might develop her empathy. Or go on a vacation in a poor country like the Philippines and let her see people living in a much more difficult lifestyle but are still very happy. I think things like that can give young people a different perspective on life.

          14. Claire says:

            Boracay maybe! That’s more my speed. I think HG filled all the soup kitchen spots that were free this month—he’s quite active in the community! She spent $920–I tallied it up last night. She will make $9.20 an hour to clean a ton of things and she got IG taken, no friends, no phone. She is presently somber and not communicating—somewhat of a dissociative fugue I believe.

          15. mommypino says:

            Way to go Mama! 👏. $920 is absolutely unbelievable. That’s a lot of money.

            Boracay is a good place to get your feet wet. The sand is as soft and white as almond flour. The sunset is amazing and the shoreline is so long and there’s a lot of shallow water on the shore so your kids will have a fun time walking on the water. It’s a fantastic barefoot beach. But it can be very crowded with tourists. During peek seasons you can be bumping with all kinds of bodies as you walk which may not be so fun if you have more than one kid to keep an eye of. The cool thing there is there are plenty of international cuisine available so you’re not stuck with Filipino foods. I think they have at least two Starbucks there and other international chain restaurants.

          16. Claire says:

            I’d love to go! It’s a journey to get there as you know. Kids would love it.

          17. Claire says:

            I really should correct what I said about not reaching narcissistic proportions at times.. Indeed my behavior has/does. Perhaps I’m focused on semantics but it’s important. Narcissistic yes, narcissist no.. I have no problem illustrating my short comings in this—a fitting venue for such discussion.

          18. FYC says:

            Hi Mommypino, it is always a pleasure to chat with you! Yes, I remember that conversation, but there was one before that (as GB) when you talked about your mothers’s cruelty and using a broom to punish you.

            As for testing, you are so right about the importance of the questions used in self-report tests. Any self report questionnaire is supposed to first be rigorously tested and verified for reliability and validity. Unfortunately, not all researchers perform this step. Also, participant levels of comprehension, ability to self assess accurately and personal biases are influencing factors.

            In particular, the question “Do you see yourself as special?” This question does not include a reference point. You might think everyone is special and therefore answer yes, or you might focus on a special skill you possess and answer yes, or you might focus on a variety of talents and answer yes, yet still not consider yourself as ‘special’ in terms of uniquely superior and set apart from the masses (as assumed by the question as asked). Even if you are more grandiose than average, but possess the three strands of empathy, you are not (by definition) not a narcissist.

            One thing that stands out in the field of psychology is the enormous variance in definitions of self esteem and the definitions of narcissism. This is why I am so impressed with HG’s highly specific approach. No one else has accomplished this. HG has written word-for-word expressions used by narcissists I have known. He illustrates behaviors that are both observable and repetitive. That precision and accuracy is what drew me in to read more.

            Mommypino, you are not a narcissist, but I can totally appreciate your former fear. I am so pleased you experienced a degree of insight from my perception of your delay in emotional empathy for protection. You have endured so much in life and remain so lovely, from what I have observed it just seemed to fit.

            I’m happy to hear you enjoyed your weekend! Yet another unique and interesting example of your self-protection strength 🔫 and empathy 🦋 😉

          19. mommypino says:

            Lol thank you FYC. You have a special way of making people feel good about themselves. You have a real gift and you’re a solid good person.
            I agree with the questionnaires as well. You raised great points about the limitations of such tests. It is funny because I did have a problem with the question of thinking that I am special because while I don’t think that I am special in comparison to everybody else, I will not say that I’m not special because that’s like putting myself down. Although I knew what the intention of the question was, I couldn’t write that I am not special. Of course I’m special! Just like everybody else. So you’re absolutely right, some of the questions can be interpreted differently.

          20. FYC says:

            Awww, Thank you so much Mommypino😘 I am simply reflecting the goodness that is already there. Never had a need to flatter, it’s easy to see the obvious and share.

            People are so often subjected to negative, critical and judgmental people who are only too willing to blame, shame and pour their venom onto others (as evidenced by conduct on social media, in mass media, and even a couple comments on this blog). It’s sad. So I guess this one way I attempt to level the scales. In fairness, I am not all sunshine and light as I have no problem calling someone out when I deem appropriate—especially when encountering the aforementioned behaviors! 😉

            You certainly are special Mommypino, and I agree everyone is special and unique; we all benefit from that diversity.

    3. Mercy says:

      FYC, addressing your comment about empathy being a 6th sense, I’ve always felt that our empathy is an advantage. I think we rely on all three strands to filter who’s genuine and who isn’t. We do it without even realizing because it is so natural to us. In the case with the narcissist our emotional empathy, or 6th sense fails us because it doesn’t recognize the distorted logic. All of a sudden this built-in defense that we rely so heavily on needs maintenance. In my opinion, I think that’s why so many of us are blindsided. The red flags were there but the alarms never went off. 

      1. FYC says:

        Hi Mercy, I agree with you that emotional empathy is an advantage and for me I experience it (mostly) as a blessing. I equally value logic. As for our sixth sense failing us with narcissists, it did not work that way for me. It was present. I did note signs. I think I wanted to believe the good. When more signs appeared, I clung to hope (bad move, but human). My ET was foolishness with a bit of willfulness. I wanted to solve the riddle (arrogance!) and hold on to an ideal that never existed. No more. The beauty of HG’s brutal truth sets us free. I am forever grateful. I have leveled up in the game of life and received a new power pack 😉 I have already passed several ‘tests’, but am ever mindful I must always engage logic and remain ever resisting.

  12. foolme1time says:

    HG is it possible for a co-dependent to attach to another co-dependent? Not necessarily in a romantic relationship. If so in your prospective, what is the outcome if this happens?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is possible. It depends on whether both could keep away from narcissists outside of the relationship.

      1. foolme1time says:

        Thank you HG. 🙃

  13. Twilight says:

    “A highly-attuned individual with the emotional contagion will watch a television programme and where the main character is frightened,they will feel that fear also. They will read a moving newspaper article about the plight of an orphan and they will feel that despair as well. It is an immensely powerful part of empathy and causes the empathic individual to have to respond to it.“

    This isn’t a Contagion Empath, we are extremely attuned and our sympathy will be evident for characters and our empathy triggered and we “feel” the same yet we know it is our sympathy not our empathy we are feeling. Visual cues which triggers the contagion empathy ( the energy that connects us) HSP (learned or born as) which are not Contagion yet of another school, a Contagion Empath is fully aware and connected to this energy which is why we do not need visual or audio cues to trigger it and makes us aware of another’s emotional state. We are extremely attuned and not highly attuned.

    First trait of a Contagion awareness.

    I apologize HG this is inaccurate and misleading when it comes to those like me, It is thou accurate when dealing with the other 3 schools and how attuned they are to catch glimpses of what I feel ALL THE DAMN TIME.

  14. Lou says:

    I guess my question is, does life at night trigger your fuel hunting instincts?

    1. K says:

      Lou
      You might like this article and HG’s answer to Pam’s comment is quite funny.

      https://narcsite.com/2017/03/29/nightlife-2/#comments

  15. Lou says:

    Hi HG. I saw your latest IG posts this morning and they got me wondering if being in night clubs triggers the hunting instincts in you. I know you’re with the SM but I also know night clubs or pubs are hunting grounds for narcissists. Fuel is everywhere for you to gather, I know, but do your fuel hunting instincts get
    triggered in night clubs?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It all depends on the position in the dynamic and need. Now? No.

      1. Lou says:

        Thanks for your reply. I was thinking this morning how some addiction recovery programs advice to stay always from places that trigger or are connected to the addiction, hence my question. But I see fuel is somehow different. It all depends on the position, I see. 😉

        1. Lou says:

          Apologies for my cheeky little joke.

      2. Oracle says:

        Would you say getting fuel in some ways is needed to survive?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Absolutely.

  16. Narc noob says:

    The emotional contagion appeared while I was watching Queen of Scott’s at the movies recently. It was brutal, and I couldn’t watch some scenes.

    HG, do you find some empathetic people try to avoid certain emotions/situations? I feel narcissistic when I need space and come across as neutral to an emotional situation.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, that can happen.

  17. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: I have the contagion. The Narcissist also used to watch me when I dealt with someone`s misery or joy. And then he knew what to do. I did not know he was a N., but I made sure I acted swiftly also, so that he could follow my behavior, because I had noticed he did not really know what to do, especially for certain people. I could tell he was repulsed sometimes, when he saw he had to do a hug or a long hug, to certain people.

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