Come One, Come All


My kind need people. We do not like to admit it as the suggestion of reliance on somebody else brings with it connotations of weakness and this dents our sense of omnipotence. It is however an inescapable fact. We do not like it and indeed this is in part the thing which drives our devaluing behaviour. I need other people because I need to gather fuel from those people through their emotional responses to me. I am often asked and sometimes lambasted for it, whether I obtain fuel from my writing and interaction with those who comment on it, asking questions and advancing their own experiences and theories. I freely admit I do so but emphasise that since all of those who I interact with are remote strangers then in accordance with the fuel index, the amount of fuel that I receive is very low. Nevertheless, it is naturally welcome and I am far more content to receive it than not. The receipt of this fuel though is not the driving force behind why I write and share my experiences, observations and increasing awareness. The receipt of fuel is neither the key reason why I interact with the many people who take the time to comment and question me. I interact with my readers because I gain by exhibiting my works to them. I interact because I learn from my readers, by understanding their views, their responses and their desires. I interact because they can learn from me and the dissemination of my knowledge is a powerful sensation indeed. I interact because I find the questions posed often challenging, invariably interesting and stimulating. I interact because I am interested in the lives and experiences of those who have found themselves participating with me. I also often find them entertaining and humorous too. Through my writing and the almost daily interaction with these people I have also come to recognise that these people fall in to particular groups. I have observed this repeatedly and I wanted to share this observation with you. You may recognise people belonging to these groups and have your own views about that inclusion. You may indeed recognise which group you belong to and quite possibly further categorisations which have not yet occurred to me. I would be interested to know. So, what are these groups?

  1. The Angered

Admittedly not a large group, but there are those who present full of anger and hatred, either towards my kind and even me specifically even though we have never met. Of course, I am representative of my kind, albeit a superior version and therefore it is to be expected that I would take some flak for this. I understand how badly people have been hurt and abused by my kind and therefore this anger is entirely natural. I have no issue whatsoever in people telling me what a bastard I am, that they would like to punch me in the mouth or that I should be taken out and shot. If people wish to vent their spleen in such a fashion, they should feel free to do so. They may feel better about it and of course it is just fuel to me.

  1. The Confused

There are those who are completely bewildered by what has happened and this state persists for some time, despite the explanations that I provide and the clarity through which I articulate these explanations. That is not to suggest that these people are thick or stupid, far from it, but is in fact testament to just how confusing, disorientating and perplexing our behaviour can be. Many people in this group cannot fathom out how our kind can be as we are and moreover how we cannot know what we are. It is pleasing to watch as the understanding suddenly forms over time, as the pieces fit together and the whole narcissistic experience begins to make sense. I often find that it is when those people begin to realise that they have to adopt our perspective in order to gain understanding. That is often the breakthrough moment

  1. The Answer Seeker

This group embodies one of the fundamental traits of empathic people; the need to know and understand. Question after question is posed, usually based on their own experiences in order to assist them in fathoming out what type of narcissist this person became entangled with, why the narcissist did as he did and what can be expected to happen next. Occasionally, this group may pose questions which are hypothetical but in the main the repeated and valid asking of questions is premised on what has happened to them.

  1. The Sponge

This group comprises of Answer Seekers but goes beyond this. They wish to know and understand everything there is to know about the narcissistic experience. They need to understand what happened to them but also find considerable interest in the experience of others and then applying their new found knowledge to unravelling the mysteries of the tales from other people. This group cannot get enough of the knowledge and understanding, they wish to examine every facet of narcissism, whether it is from the victim’s perspective or that of the narcissist. They need to know why, how and what. These people soak up all this knowledge and do so with a healthy understanding of their tolerance to do so as they place understanding above emotional response.

  1. The Burnt Victim

This group consists of people who find the whole entanglement with the narcissist still very raw. They may not be confused as they know what they have been ensnared by and they are beginning to understand the essentials of what has happened and why. Moments come when the content is difficult to stomach, the wounds still raw and painful and this may result in occasional absences, yet, the desire to have those wounds heal and push through the pain with commendable bravery sees these people pressing on with their interaction and understanding, no matter how much it continues to hurt.

  1. The Narcissists

As one might expect, my work will attract those who are of my kind and those who perhaps are not quite narcissists but have strong traits in that regard. These people recognise what they are and are content to share this as well as learn more about themselves by reading the words of one of their own. Occasionally they bristle and raise their hackles, once in a while lashing out, leaving others in no doubt as to what they are, but invariably they recognise my arena as a place of knowledge and learning and are content to engage in that as the primary purpose.

  1. The Unwitting Narcissists

From time to time this very small group has a membership when one of our kind wanders by and repeatedly exhibits all the traits which demonstrate that they are one of our kind, but they do not see it. Indeed, their blame-shifting, projection and deflection are manifestly obvious, but not to them for they have no insight. It is not in accordance with the five rules for me to tell them what they are, but I always recognise my kind when they alight here and from time to time they do.

  1. The Introspectives

This group comprises those who wish to learn about the narcissistic experience, ask questions and soak up the knowledge but in doing so, the experience is as much learning about my kind as understanding what they are and why they became entangled or keep becoming entangled. These people see the benefit of beginning to understand themselves by understanding the behaviour of their tormentor and are keen to grasp what it is about them, their behaviour, their past and their characteristics which influences their choices.

  1. The Staters of the Obvious

This group, which is small, consists of those who seem to believe that they have to tell me what I am. I do not include those who advance an idea or theory in a respectful manner based on their own experience and understanding. It is evident when somebody is doing that and such a constructive approach is always welcomed. The Staters of the Obvious have a tendency to tell me what I already know, do so in a derogatory fashion and make it appear as if it is some major revelation to me. For instance, they may announce,

“Your kind are just all spoilt children and you will never be happy.”

Thanks for that. That is illuminating.

Or I am advised,

“You are just a fucking waste of space and karma will get you because you are empty and evil.”

Glad we cleared that up then.

It is of course fuel and many who engage in this do so not because they are angry but because they believe they understand what I am more than I do myself. They are incorrect. This often happens when someone comes across my material for the first time and races to such injudicious pronouncements without digesting more of my work which will soon reveal to them that my level of awareness is considerable. I do find that those individuals flare up and vanish very quickly when the bite they are hoping for does not come. It is easy to play with such people and I could amuse myself by doing so, working them up into a frenzy as they unwittingly realise they are pouring fuel in my direction but that is not a productive use of my time.

  1. On the Up

This group consists of those who are recovering and supplementing their recovery with additional knowledge and understanding. They have a clear direction of where they are going and in typical empathic style they wish to share their experiences and help others. This is not done in a bragging manner (see the group below) and it is not expressed so it is “all about them” but is rather done from the purpose of giving encouragement and inspiring others that there is a way forward and a path through the pain. This group are keen to detail constructively what has worked for them and what has not. Their recollections are often under-stated, modest and sensible.

  1. Point to Prove

By contrast to the above group, those members in this small group feel the need to repeatedly declare how much of a champion they are for surviving. Indeed, I understand the pride which must come to the fore after having suffered horrendously and then having moved forward, but the frequent need to shout this from the rooftops tends to suggest to me that the progress is not as great or a secure as they would like others to believe. Indeed, I often regard those in this group, as compared to those above, as being more in it for themselves and do it more to bash and bait my kind, rather than truly revel in the advancement of their own recovery and those of their fellow victims.

  1. The Weaponising Empath

This group is one of the larger, if not the largest group I find I am interacting with. It consists of people who realise that they have access to a unique resource which they can use repeatedly to help themselves by understanding. They know they can ask questions, read as much or as little as they require, they frame considered and respectful questions and do so in order to understand, to acquire knowledge, to defend themselves and to enable them to tackle the effects and influence of the narcissist or narcissists in their life. The members of this group recognise that they can gain far more by engaging with me than seeking to point score, but that does not mean they will necessarily accept everything that is stated with querying or even challenging it. They adopt an open-minded approach to the ongoing process that they find themselves a part of and are enthusiastic in being able to avail themselves of a rare and unusual source of knowledge. They are able to put to one side any distaste they may have at “fraternising with the enemy” by reason of their empathic nature (they recognise what has happened to my kind as well) and the fact they know they stand far more to gain by extracting knowledge and observation than by engaging in a bun fight. Many appear within this group from the start and others gravitate towards it during their interaction with me. It is a beneficial and rewarding group for its members and for me as well.

Do any of these groups seem familiar to you? Perhaps there are others I have missed. Perhaps you identify which one you belong to. I would be interested to read your observations.

1,459 thoughts on “Come One, Come All

  1. Evangeline says:

    This was a long thread but as a music prof, I have 2 nominations for theme song if Patsy Cline’s perfect “I Fall to Pieces” was not chosen: The Blower’s Daughter by Damien Rice, especially sung in Portugese by Seu Jorge and Ana Carolina; and Angel sung by Stevie Nicks. Enjoy! But no ET (she chortles malevolently). You won’t regret it. Enjoy the grain of the performers’ voices…

    1. SMH says:

      Thanks, Evangeline, but I absolutely hate Stevie Nicks and Fleetwood Mac. I’ll look for the Portuguese one!

  2. Kim e says:

    I just hate the fact that we have to waste our time analysising any of this shit. Just pisses me off so I was clearing my aura….LOL. Just ranting ………… my soapbox now.

    1. SMH says:

      Kim e, For sure it is annoying. I did a whole lot of nothing today and did not think about MRN at all, even when I saw that one of my fake FB friends – the one that messaged me – suddenly disappeared. Some hang around and some go away. Anyway, feels like I am over the most recent hump. It does pass. Getting pissed off about it is healthy.

      1. Kim e says:

        HI. Just checking in. Been working long hours as we are doing database upgrades at work. Doing ok ET wise. Still comes and goes but I have been so busy he is there in the background but other stuff taking up his space.
        Thanksgiving is next week so I onlky have a 3 day work week but then that leaves me 4 days to think…………GGGGRRRRRR.
        Gotta run. I will stay in touch.
        What is up with you? No work so just lounging all day long and eating bonbons and picking up strange men?????

        1. SMH says:

          lol KIm e. You know me so well! Bonbons and strange men galore! I did have one today – had to strip down for him (doctor!). I’ve toyed with the idea of dating again but after the new year I don’t have much free time and I don’t know why I would do it now when I haven’t since August, when I met OM. I worry a bit that I will get bored but I’m not particularly busy now and my ET has been really low since my last spike, so maybe I shouldn’t worry about it and neither should you! After working so hard you will appreciate the days off. Let’s clean the house and go to the gym a lot! 🙂

          I recently talked to a male friend about the men we know outed by #MeToo. One woman waited 27 years! I don’t have that much longer to live, so I’m thinking I’d better make the most of it. Funny but I really used to like men a lot – I always had many male friends. But I think two narcs in a row might have put me off men forever…they are either naive or abusers. Not much in between.

          I’ve been out of town/traveling for four days. Home last night and collapsed. Today I’ve been puttering – picking things up and putting them down but not really organizing anything. About to go out to meet a friend for the evening.

          What are you doing for Thanksgiving day? I will have to travel and am already resenting it, couch potato that I am.

          1. Kim e says:

            SMH. I scared myself tonight. Left work to get on the 438 train. As I’m walking I said to myself STOP. W is on the 417 and since I left earlier than I needed to chances were pretty high that I would see him, he would see me or I would see him with someone. My ET still fragile and any of those scenarios would have set me back. Especially if he saw me and it caused a hoover. I ducked inside a building and lol started listening to HG on my zero impact session.
            Thanksgiving I am going to my brother in laws side of the family. Friday I am off and plan on working out. Not sure what else is up.
            This Saturday I am going to the chiropractor so he can work on my arm. Then out for lunch with my masseuse. Thinking about uber so I don’t have to worry about have 3 if I want.
            Where do you travel to and why do you resent it? Just because you are forced to get dressed and move? I say that cuz that is how I get too.
            Bon bons and strange men are both bad for you but at least with bon bons you know what you are getting and they taste good. Mind out of gutter😂😂😂😂👿👿👿👿👿

          2. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes because I have to get dressed, go out and get on a train because I do not have a car. I also have to see Matrinarc, so not much to be thankful for. I prefer friends Thanksgivings, though of course I do not mind the kids being there. I hope I can avoid sleeping over. Tired of packing and unpacking.

            Brilliant move to whip out zero impact. I am sure HG approves! As do I!

            Yesterday I had a chat with the wife of neighborhood guy about ‘the situation.’ She was very cool, calm and collected. But a few things do not add up for me and I think she is in denial.

            I hope you are enjoying your day. I am working and entertaining myself by watching the impeachment hearings – lots of strange men but no bon bons. Hope to have something more interesting to report later…

          3. Kim e says:

            What “situation” did you and the wife chat about? And what is she in denial of? This is kinda like The World Turns…….I hate soap operas, who would ever think I would be living one…LOL
            Impeachment hearings? OMG…I would rather have my hemorrhoids lanced. (this is one of my favorite sayings btw) Much easier if he had never been voted in to start with. What a joke.
            Boss still here today. Tons of calls and an interview…….TTYL

          4. SMH says:

            Kim e, You always make me laugh. The situation with neighborhood guy accused of harassment (it’s actually worse, but I won’t get into the details). After emailing with him about it, however, I think he might have simply overstepped while drunk and it turned into hell on earth for him. So maybe his wife is not in denial. Anyway, it was good to get it out in the open because no one was talking about it – you know those sorts of situations where you know something that everyone else knows but everyone pretends they don’t know and they don’t know whether you know? It sounds like a soap opera, all right. I think I like it however, otherwise I wouldn’t find myself in these situations.

            Nasty weather today but everyone seems exceptionally happy – smiley! A young man even got up out of his seat to unstick my coat zipper from where it was caught between seats (I thought I’d have to leave it on the subway). Must be because of the impeachment hearings yesterday. New York would like nothing better than to see Trump implode. If it happens there will be a big street party.

          5. SMH says:

            Kim e, I forgot when I wrote earlier that I have an infected toe. It is really stupid – tiny little toe but all inflamed. I have to take antibiotics for it and I cannot wear shoes because it hurts. Last night I wore sneaks but it still hurt like hell, so I think I have to mostly be barefoot for a few days. Unless I am going to a nearby friend, where I can take off my shoes, I am not going to wander around much. Also, I just fell asleep for a few hours in the evening. Don’t know what that was about – could it have been the drugs I took? (jk)

          6. Kim e says:

            SMH sticking that toe where it doesn’t belong?
            How is it today?

          7. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e, Haha. Only the nose. Happy to now be on a calm thread :). My toe is much better, thanks. I went out with some friends last night to a vegan restaurant and ordered tempeh, which I did not like, though I love tofu. We then went to an old fashioned Italian pastry shop for decadent desserts. I am about to go get a haircut – finally!

            I was just remarking on the ‘other’ thread to Mercy that I found out yesterday how those FB bots work, and they are not MRN. It was a HUGE relief! Like a weight lifted off of me. I still think the LinkedIn is him but I do not look at LI anymore so I am essentially hoover free and optimistic for 2020!

            How is your Thanksgiving shaping up? I have to cook at some point but not today. And I managed to snag a ride – the person will even come pick me up. Things are looking better.

          8. Caroline-is-fine says:

            SMH & Kim,
            I have cartwheeled on over here! 🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️Seriously, I’ve had a LOT of caffeine today, so I’m a wee bit too peppy. Why, you may ask? Wellllllll…Because the contractors finally finished putting all the new linoleum down this morning (it’s so pretty!), but the glue smell is giving me such a bad headache (takes a good 3 days to dry)…so I’ve been consuming caffeine, to help ease off my headache (caffeine really helps my bad PMS headaches), but I need to stop with that now, so I can get good sleep tonight for work…maybe I should get my neighbor friend & go for a walk. No! I should reorganize my closet! Yes – I will do that!

            So THIS is what it’s like to be Kim, when she’s hyper~kind of a rush!~🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️


          9. Kim e says:

            CIF & SMH
            WOW…sitting here minding my own business and I am getting picked on. Cant a Geyser get a break. I cant help it. I come by my hyperness naturally unlike SOME people that need to down massive of coffee!!!! And sniff tile glue……..
            But really…what else is going on girls???
            Tomorrow is my 10 week anniversary. YEAH FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!
            I will admit his little hoover today has raised my ET (it is expected this early in the game of escape) bit not high enough to lower my LT or even think about breaking NC.
            Have a great Thanksgiving!!!! Hugs and smooches.
            (Miss you HG)

          10. Caroline-is-thankful says:

            Geyser Kim,
            I’m taking time out from lying on my linoleum — sniffing its fragrant glue & chugging Coke — to say congrats on your NC anniversary🎉 (my NC is, sadly, smashed to smithereens) — and to also say “Happy Thanksgiving to All, With Gratitude❣”

            MP & SMH found a really cute turkey emoji, but I didn’t😞, drats…Oh, wait — there it is! 🦃

            🥧🥧🥧🥧Oooh, pie.🤗

          11. Kim e says:

            CIF. What are you talking about you broke NC? When? If this is truly true I am sorry
            Happy Thanksgiving to you too ❤️🏋️‍♀️🍷🎂🧚🏻‍♂️🦞🦃🦃

          12. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I think our notifications were not right on this thread, for a few days. Somewhere in the middle of this huge thread, I said that he showed up in person…at my home. I was outside, doing yard work. So yes, my NC was broken. Hugely.

          13. Kim e says:

            CIF. Yes. there were some of your replies that I would see on the email but not in wordpress.
            I amsorry I missed that reply. I am going to go back and find it.
            How are you doing now? Back to NC? Or……….
            I still adore you no matter what the status.

          14. Kim e says:

            CIF and SMH.
            I found our new theme song…LOL
            “I Fall To Pieces” by Patsy Cline.

          15. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m not too familiar with that song, but I can already assure you that will NOT be our theme song! As for my situ, it is all kinds of problems right now…But I’ll give it a rest on that, at least until next week. I’ll be offline until then.

            So although I don’t have our theme song picked yet (I’ll find one), our motto toward any narc shenanigans shall be: AIN’T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT SHIT.

            Yes, I swore. Yes, I used bad grammar. It’s to make it abundantly clear that I’m topped-off enlightened & will absolutely work my way outta this, with fierce Viking inner strength & soul-powered discernment…just in case that was ever in doubt. 😂

            Have very blessed Thanksgivings, women❣Catch ya again soon.
            🤗 Huggers❣

          16. Kim e says:

            CIF…OK. I am here to kick some N ass if needed. (I have no issue swearing. As a matter of fact if they outlawed it I would not be able to talk) Imagine a geyser not being able to talk………..
            Enjoy the holiday.
            Hugs and smoochs

          17. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, Kim💚 I’ve been trying to figure out how to share the details on what went down, without getting too specific (I try not to do that on here)…I think the key is to leave certain elements out…because if I don’t share anything at all, you guys won’t have any sense of what I’m dealing with, which means you can’t exactly support me, in what I need to do…

            So I’ll come to some resolution on this aspect, probably over this holiday. But I still feel strong & calm…it’s really because I have the knowledge base now, and I also trust my inner voice. I do have faith that my steps will be wise. I also can sense that I have more than a few heavenly guardian angels watching over me (yes, I’m serious…and no, I’m not psychotic.😉)

          18. SMH says:

            Oh gosh, CIF. I did not know that he showed up in person at your home though I did know something had happened. I thought he called you! You should have thrown a pie at him! A pumpkin pie! You’ll get through this and we will help you.

            Kim e, I know I Fall to Pieces but every time I hear songs like that now, it’s narcville for me. The one that always gets me is Lucinda Williams Are You Alright? “I looked around me and you were gone.” Do you know her music? I would send you a CD for Xmas if I knew who you were lol.

          19. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yeah, in the flesh, and with a female cousin. To sum up: he pulled up along the curb, by an island in my yard, & he got out of his car & stood just outside his driver’s side door. His cousin (who I know) was slouched down in her seat on the passenger’s side (very close to where I was standing). She seemed inordinately preoccupied, texting away – like someone trying to pretend she had no idea what was going on, lol. He & I just stood there looking at each other. I felt so eerily calm. I didn’t move a muscle, and he didn’t move toward me. We didn’t say a word. I have no idea how long it lasted – but long enough for me to think about what was happening. He finally got back in his car, & they left…but she came back about 10 minutes later, without him. That is when it affected me – what she had to say. More later on that, as I try to figure out what to omit. I’ll be back on the site later this week. Thanks for your kindness💜 Hope you had a very wonderful Thanksgiving.🙂

          20. SMH says:

            CIF, That is really bizarre and totally uncool. Do you worry that he is violent? You don’t have to answer now – I know you want a break and I don’t want to keep pulling you back in. Enjoy your weekend and try to forget about it (I know, impossible). Fingers crossed there are no more massive hoovers. And don’t let them guilt trip you! Hugs.

          21. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It’s okay, SMH – I’m a little here/there/everywhere today, but I have time to answer, and I would never want to make you wonder, on the violence question…no, he’s not physically violent. I’m not worried about that. I agree, it’s not cool. In a way, I could never imagine him doing what he did, because it was different than the workplace scenario (much more digging) …but, ironically, my intuition told me that was exactly what was coming, so it’s like I was prepared, mentally. His cousin did shed light on his mindset/how he thinks of me & some other aspects I didn’t know (he had no idea she came back to talk to me/I’ll explain that later)…in some ways, it made me feel better to hear from her – in other ways, it made me feel worse. It took me awhile to absorb the entire thing, to even know how I felt.

          22. SMH says:

            CIF, You seem to be handling it – you are not emotionally all over the place, though I know you are mulling it over. How long had it been since you’d seen him? Luckily, I moved so MRN cannot suddenly show up at my door.

          23. Caroline-is-fine says:

            21/22 days (depending if you count the actual day)…and I believe that very day (or the next day), I was chit-chatting on here with you guys, not saying a word about it. I’m not sure if that’s because I was in a bit of shock — didn’t want to think/talk about it — or really did absorb it pretty well. It’s probably the second reason, knowing myself as I do.😎

          24. SMH says:

            CIF, Wow! You do know how to keep a secret. I meant how long had you not seen him before this happened?

          25. Caroline-is-fine says:

            That’s a secret.😂

          26. SMH says:

            CIF, You’re such a tease!

          27. Caroline-is-fine says:

            “A tease”…
            That’s not the first time I’ve heard that😂…Yes, it is😏…No it’s not😌….Yes – no? It’s a secret.🤭

            I’ll be back on tomorrow, to give tidbits I got from the cousin. It was… interesting. I learned a few things, but it’s all through the filter of realizing he’s a narc/his worldview/the dynamic he has with the cousin also, in relation to what he shares with her. I said practically nothing. I felt empathy but was verrrrry cautious.

            Happy Merry Monday, Women.🤗 Catch ya on Terrific Tuesday.

          28. Kim e says:

            Caroline is a tease….LOL
            Do you think what came out of the cousins mouth is fromthe cousing OR all from N?

          29. Caroline-is-fine says:

            The cousin very much had her own thoughts/take on things, which she told me (quite earnestly) — and she also clarified what’s been going on with him & told me a few things that he’s shared with her, regarding me (it was quite clear to me that she only told me those particular things out of defense of & concern for him).

            Like me, he has a large & close extended family…there’s nothing quite like cousin love, which I understood very well when I was listening to her. In other words, her heart is in the right place.

          30. Kim e says:

            CIF…Ok. I will have to defer to your judgement on this one. Just hope the cousin’s heart is in the right place and not being controlled by N.

          31. SMH says:

            CIF, I’m all ears! But I would also heed what Kim e says. Family might not be the best spokespersons for narcs — too easily part of the facade/lieutenants even if their hearts are in the right place.

          32. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m going in late for work today, so just real quick (I plan to come back on this eve)…I don’t want you guys to misunderstand where I’m at. My emphasis (which you wouldn’t know, as I kept it brief) is that I *do* see her biased role in this, in that she is all-in for his interests, so I agree with you both on her role, in alignment with a family narcissist. She is not thinking the way I am, because of that. I just wanted to also say she is a loving person, as I know her well. She has no ill will for me, and she shows a great deal of fondness for/is respectful of me. She just has no idea he is a narcissist, so she is swayed in an errant direction, in many regards (and doesn’t see the bigger picture). Her main concern is her love/care for him, as his cousin, who has been close to him since they were little. I’m in full understanding of what’s going on, believe you me!😉

          33. SMH says:

            CIF, Glad you are aware and on it. I should have known that you would have thought through all of this. I am curious as to what you would tell the cousin. People so dismiss it when one tries to explain a narc entanglement.

          34. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, SMH. 💜I appreciate it. You’ve probably ascertained by now that I’m someone who reflects a lot & listens to my inner voice/intuition a great deal, but I also do have a strong logical (and self-protective) part to me too, so when they’re in balance, I’m in pretty good shape, in my peace & strength…and although I have joked about being “Viking stubborn,” I do reflect upon what others (who I value) have to say, and I often do pick up bits & pieces necessary to my own journey… It’s not a cocky thing I feel about myself, so I hope it never comes off that way. With humility, I often do know where I’m going – and how to get there. Anyway, moving on…

            In no particular order to this recent, big “event” (there will, undoubtedly, be lots of little snippets as we move along)…one of the significant aspects was finding out my nex really, truly did almost lose his life (related to that medical stuff I had been skeptical about). Thankfully, it was during a time period when I was not in contact with him, when he was flown to a major trauma/surgical hospital. In other words, I didn’t frosty freeze him prior to this big, scary medical thing that went down, which would have been a hit to my heart, to do to anyone (logic tells me it should not matter, but deeper TRUTH is that it’s best never to be in that position, and I’m just grateful I wasn’t.) He’s still healing but okay now, but that was a lot for me to absorb, from his cousin. So this, in itself, has made me reflect on what I can live with — and what I cannot. He is a narcissist, but I am a caring empath. I will not be less than who I am, and I will not have regrets in the big ways, as in not behaving in a way I can live with…So when in the midst, I will always be caring & decent. The *not* being in the midst of a nex is the aspect I’m now dealing with, and I’m aware of the dilemma I’m in with him passing through my area, which will be more than he was before (that’s an aspect I’ll get to…I’m pacing myself, lol).

            So his medical — that’s the first part I wanted to share. ✅

            As for what I said to the cousin, I am not kidding when I tell you that I listened 95% of the time, and I only responded with about three responses. They were:

            1) “Okay” or a head nod (affirming I heard her & supported what she was saying)
            2) “I understand” (which always had to do with her concern & care for my nex, and I *did* understand and very much felt for her) &
            3) “I will think about what you’ve shared.”

            Oh, and I also said, “I’m very glad he’s okay.”

            She was very emotional at first…I put my hand on top of hers through most of what she was sharing. It’s like she was intense, worried and caring…and I was loving, but in a strong/calm way. She was calm by the end, and we had a big, warm hug. She doesn’t know he’s a narcissist, and I would never talk to her about that…but I was able to find a way to care, without her having to understand where I’m even coming from, with my dynamic with him, as I said nothing about him and me at all.

            So I guess I found a simple way to let her be heard & show her my care…without getting myself in deeper, with the nex. I just kept thinking about IF she ever did share what I said, what would be okay/safest for my nex to hear me saying.

            Well, this is just for starters. I hope your head isn’t spinning…it’s a lot, even to explain any of it, so I can only imagine how mystifying it may be to read snippets of it.💜

          35. SMH says:

            CIF, I know you need to be true to yourself, hence the relieved feeling that you were not ‘not there’ when this happened to Nex. You do know, of course, that had the situation been reversed, he wouldn’t have been there for you, whether he was ‘there’ or not. Right? Still, I get it. It makes us feel cleaner somehow to do what we can to help or to at least to not misstep. I think that is a huge burden to bear but then I was not a primary to MRN. So it is different. You appear to have handled the cousin with a lot of compassion. Mostly people just want to get things off their chest anyway. They want an ear. They don’t necessarily want feedback so your responses seem pitch perfect, though maybe it was difficult not to say more than you did. Was she pressing you to get back with him?

          36. Caroline-is-fine says:

            1) He’s only ever “been there” for me when in Golden mode. If I broke my leg & called for his help now, he may “be there” for me…but only because of he’s angling, for himself.
            2) No, she was not at all.

          37. SMH says:

            CIF, Good she was not pressuring you and yes to the angling. I finally blew up at MRN because we were supposed to be friends (his initiative after I escaped) and he did not respond when I injured myself. Of course I had wounded him a few days previously so the timing was bad, but it became very clear to me at that moment that a friendship was not in the cards…anyway, I know you do not want to talk about it so I will not bring it up again unless you do.

          38. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I love how your “What kind of crappy friend are you?” mentality got you out of that entanglement. You have a standard on what constitutes a real friendship, and that was your “F it” moment with him. It’s pretty perfect.🙂

            I don’t believe any effort would ever be made my nex to have any semblance of what I would consider a friendship; he knows me well enough to know I’d draw boundaries & expect some reciprocity & balance (kind of explains for itself why he’s never wanted it, lol). He just wouldn’t see any big benefit (fuel) for him, being in that kind of dynamic with me.

            When you & others have described a few female narc friendships you have, I do get how you don’t expect too much & keep it within boundaries you can deal with…I can see that being a neutral thing (maybe even positive, at times), if you’re aware & know when to saunter away at times. I know it’d be an entirely different matter if my nex even pretended to be my friend…being former IPPS, I have no doubt that he’d attempt to play mind games & try undermining me (the question would not be “if” but “when”) — and attempting the sexual arena as well…all aspects you have probably don’t have to contend with (or much), with a female narc friend — at least the third category!

          39. SMH says:

            CIF, Yeah, that was my fuck it moment alright. I was pretty pissed off. And you are also correct about the rest of it. The stakes are not as high with people who have always been just friends – they don’t tap into that emotional stuff. With MRN of course we already had a history and he demanded a lot from me as a ‘friend’ – in some ways more than in the FR. I wasn’t IPPS but I was fully embedded in his fuel matrix so he did play mind games, try to seduce etc. I think he felt the loss of control and was trying to flip the script.

          40. Caroline-is-fine says:

            The mere thought of my nex expecting MORE from me in friendship than was in the formal relationship: 😨😬😭😳😱😤😰😧🙈🙉🙊


          41. SMH says:

            CIF, Yup. The lines get pretty blurred. In the friendship phase, I would refer to myself as MRN’s ‘alt-wife’ because he started demanding a kind of support that he had never demanded during the FR. I mostly did not mind but I did find it confusing and I still don’t understand the whys of it. Maybe it was harder for him to get fuel from me post-escape and so he had to look for alternative ways to bind me closer to him? I don’t know but his expectations were very high, he was very demanding, and it was hard for him to leave the FR out of it – for instance, lots of sexual innuendo even though I would leave the conversations when he did that. He also seemed to think that my feelings for him had not changed. So as another example, the first time he contacted me after my ‘break up’ letter he added ‘don’t worry’ at the end of his message. My first thought was ‘why would I worry?’

            My feelings really had changed but I am sure I made a lot of mistakes and caused confusion in how I went about things because I was not honest at first about why I did not want to return to the FR. My messaging was not all that clear, I guess. But for me at the time, it all added up to further miscommunication because in my own mind I knew I wanted out but I found it hard to explain to him. Whatever the problems are during the FR do not suddenly disappear just because the relationship has a new label. His lack of interpersonal skills remained, as did my indirectness.

          42. Caroline-is-fine says:

            “Don’t worry” sounds like him projecting…hmm, wonder if he was anxious he was LOSING CONTROL OF SOMEONE?😏

            That arena of the “3-letter word” is a lot of fuel for them, IMO…so without that, I can understand why he got more demanding.

            That’s so true — with a narcissist, it’s not like their issues go away with a new label. A can of beans is still a can of beans — even if you write “PEACHES” on it.

          43. SMH says:

            LOL CIF. Peaches. Yeah, sex is a potent fuel source, as HG has taught us. So much I wish I’d understood while I was still with MRN – I would not have been so confused. He was not mean at all. He never insulted me or belittled me or anything like that. I know it was the facade as his behavior towards both me and IPPS spoke otherwise, but it made it really hard to explain why to him whenever I broke things off.

          44. SMH says:

            CIF, I might have blocked it out but I am pretty sure he once told me that people came to hate him after I told him that he seemed like two different people to me. I know he responded that I wasn’t the first person to tell him that and I am pretty sure he added the hate thing, but I was in such a state of anxiety that my memory of the whole conversation is fuzzy.

          45. Caroline-is-fine says:


            Did he ever say anything about his thoughts on people thinking he was like “two people”?

            My nex has people he screwed over who hate him, but otherwise, he’s well regarded/respected. No matter what he does or is involved with, he always is top dog/in a power position (if not, he finds a way to be…hence, why some hate him). I’ve seen him at his top level of power in a variety of scenarios, and when he is, he’s not an ass — I guess he’s feeling the power, so he’s magnanimous. However, he can be so awful with how he treats tertiary people (specifically, ones he’ll only see once).

            It’s interesting, because I don’t think anyone would see him as “two people.” Maybe a difference between how UMR and MMR present (?). I can’t even say he seemed/seems like two people to me…hard to explain why though!

          46. SMH says:

            CIF, I only brought it up to his face once. The other times were on email and he would evade. I think he knew there was something off about him because he often expressed awareness of being different. He would talk about his boss, whom he disliked and who was probably a greater narc than he was, but I don’t think he was boss to anyone. He worked basically on a commission of sorts. He’s in general boyish – very competent and smart but not in a way that is top dog-ish alpha male (a wanna be alpha, maybe). I suspect that mid-rangers find it easier to manipulate people in intimate relationships than in non-intimate ones because sex is so powerful. What would be the substitute in a NISS relationship? It takes a lot of skill and charm for a narc to hold onto non-intimate sources. With family they can buy loyalty by providing for them, which MRN did well. But if they are not family and not intimate, what can you give them? Yours sounds more like a greater or as you say, an UMR.

          47. Kim e says:

            SMH…I know youa re going to be jealous but I got a friends reuqest on FB from Bobby Bobby. His picture (just 1) is of Moracco and he has 2567 friends. I feel honored that he wants to be my friend…..NOT!!!!! LOL. That made me laugh

            Yeah. Those spam things are a pain. I have been getting them on Hangouts. I have been getting calls BUT as I said I am ignoring them unless they are from No Caller ID. Then I will know it is him.
            I just have a gut feeling he is very busy with his supplies these days that he can control. Guess he figured out I was not one of them
            10 weeks this Wednesday. Sounds long. But in Narctime it is a drop in the bucket. Looking forward to March when it is my 6 months. I got this.,……I can feel it. (remind me that I said that when I can whining that I got hoovered…LOL)
            Weekend was good. Gotta run. Will tell more later tonight.

          48. Kim e says:

            Hope he had a good time and got some thought fuel for this holiday week.
            I would also like to add that I believe I am going to contact Ripley’s Believe It Or Not as HG is breaking a record with an absent silent treatment to the most people EVER at one time.

          49. HG Tudor says:

            Not an absent silent treatment Kim, for reasons explained previously.

          50. Kim e says:

            Not an absent silent treatment Kim, for reasons explained previously.

            I did not see where you had said you had business to attend to so I did not know where you were. In my world you were absent. Silent treatment I guess not as you were moderating. OK…Ripley’s will just have to wait.

          51. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed it will. There’s no manipulation here, there’s no need.

          52. Caroline-is-fine says:

            But if the need ever arises, you’ll surely take it.🙂 To which HG would say: “I will never have the need to do so on this site, Caroline.”<Saying the accurate thing for you – look at my progress!
            I know, I know…can it, Caroline.😛

            P.S. Please, no Empaths say anything at all about this post, because I will then pay for it. That includes no laughing faces!😎

          53. HG Tudor says:

            It’s my site. I control it. Therefore never any need.

          54. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Do you control the weather over there too? Aren’t you getting chilly in those shorts? When are you breaking out a pair of jeans?

          55. HG Tudor says:

            Hey, didn’t you listen to A-Ha?
            The Sun Always Shines On HG

          56. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I acknowledge that. My sun is always shining too, but on the inside. I still think it’d be a nice break to change your shorts once in awhile. Think about it for 2020?

          57. Kim e says:

            SMH…that is great that you got a ride. Does that mean they will bring you back home also so you don’t have to spend the night? I am going to my BIL’s nephews house with 3 pies in hand and a bottle of rum. My limit is 1 cocktail when I am driving especially on a holiday. I have to be there at 2 so I can hang in my PJ’s until 11:00. AAAHHHHH I cant wit.
            Not sure if you saw my post yet about my little HELLO today…….pitiful twat!!!
            Raining here tonight and tomorrow winds of up to 60 MPH. Not a great day to be flying around here. Hope not too many flights cancelled. I am working until 2 and then going to my weight lifting class. Need to be sure I keep busy now so my ET doesnt make me do something stupid.
            What is tempeh? I could google it but too lazy. I work on a computer all day long. Sometimes I just dont even want to look at one when I am home
            Think I will update my Amazon wish list this weekend. My kids and I buy from amazon for Xmas. Since we are spread out it is much easier. Then we dont really know what we are getting but get what we want. We will skype on Xmas and open gifts then.
            My youngest is giving me a silent treatment because I had the audacity to ask him for the money he owes me. I really dont ever expect to see it again…didnt when I gave it to him. But hey…being a mom is no good if you cant have fun with it!!!!!
            Calm thread……OMG. Wasn’t that crazY? I just couldnt even go there. It was stressing me out. Hope not too many newbies were scared away. Shit, I am not new and I was scared.
            TIme for a cup of tea and to finish watching the ABC Murders with John Malkovich. I love him. And yes. I started watching Dr. Foster and it kinda was freaking me out, I will go back to it but right now…not so much.
            Have a great thanksgiving!!!
            Hugs and smoochies.

          58. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            Congrats on your 10 week anniversary and living through another hoover! Keep at it! Did you fly for Thanksgiving? Wasn’t clear but if so, hope you made it safely to your nephew’s. I did get a ride (also with my nephew) but had to take the train back. It wasn’t too bad. Nice Thanksgiving, which was surprising, actually.

            Kids, sigh: mine is demanding that I go to the post office to track down a package that the tracking number says was delivered 2 weeks ago, but which I never received. Of course he never told me he was sending it and he sent it in his own name even though he does not live with me, so I have no idea if the p.o. has it or if they will give it to me. I am preparing for some drama either from the kid or the p.o.! My post office is the worst in the world, guaranteed.

            Glad you started watching Dr Foster. Did it trigger you or something? It sort of did me but I found it so fascinating – like watching a car crash – I binged the whole thing.

            Hugs and smooches back.

          59. Kim e says:

            SMH. HI!!!!
            Thanksgiving was good. Ate too much of course. Behaved with the alcohol. But it started out very strange and HG ended up with me on my hour long ride to the festivities.
            First I need to say that W lives on a cross street in the neighborhood from me and when I stop at the intersection to watch for cars, if I actually look tot he right, I can see his car in his driveway. When I leave at o dark thirty, there is no need for me to look that way as I can see if there are headlights coming. Thursday I left at 1:00 and when I got to the intersection there were cars coming so I had to look for more. Well I did not see his car. I saw his wife’s which means he is gone with the army. (the garages are only for 1 car. When he flies somewhere with the army his car goes in the garage and her’s goes out side) WELL just by me seeing her car, my ET told me who was boss, and how weird it was. I was triggered. So ridiculous as I knew what was up….nothing special. BUT the anxiety, nervousness was there. My LT was fighting but ET was screaming. So HG and zero impact came out. Listening helped and the rest of the day and night was ok. I am sure that the “call” on Tuesday set my ET on high alert and the car spotting just threw it over the top. I had to stop myself from crying….my LT screaming I dont want to do this again.
            Friday I got up and went to work out. I have noticed that the blah feeling is back. Today will go to the chiro and then come home and dance around to Bruno Mars to get myself out of the funk. Raining here all day also so that just adds to the blahs.

            Did you find the package from the kids? My oldest (360 sent me pictures and T day wishes. Did not hear from the youngster (32).

            Dr Foster. Not sure what it was. I just had a really hard time watching it. Only got to about 1/2 way thru the first episode and couldn’t watch any more.
            I watched Thor last night and believe I am going to watch Iron Man tonight. Love me so Marvel.

            Glad to hear your T day was good. I take it that means your mom was herself and you just ignored it?

          60. SMH says:

            Kim e, Makes sense to me that your ET was triggered and I am glad you could take HG with you. You can’t change your driving route? It is so unfair all of the ways you have to contort yourself to stay out of his view, and still you get damned hoovers. They colonize our space as well as our minds.

            Maybe your ET needs to be lower before you can watch Dr Foster. I can definitely understand how it might be a trigger too but I am amazed at the patterns I now see and I know you will see them too once you are able to watch it.

            Speaking of patterns, I’ve been chatting with narc friend for the past two hours. Looking at our conversation – me one or two lines, her a slew of thoughts, me a brief response, her a torrent of words – the whole convo about her and how she is doing. Tiring and reminds me of Matrinarc, who cannot let a moment’s silence be and who has absolutely no interest in anyone but herself. Unlike friend, however, she is also incredibly tactless. Ask her not to talk about a specific issue in front of a specific person and you can be sure that she will. No filters. All ego. No id. My father can’t hear (sounds funny – his self-defense mechanism?) so he just tunes her out and the rest of us make a bulwark. It was a nice day/evening anyway.

            I have the blahs today too but I also have a rash on my neck from an antibiotic reaction and am self-conscious about going to the gym. Was invited out too but came up with an excuse not to go – I have gotten better at lying since MRN was in my life!! I am also working today because after next week the visitors begin and I have a few deadlines.

            The package did not turn up and THEN kid told me that it didn’t matter anyway because it was a freebie, so I spent an hour in the worst post office in the world watching the drama as the workers rip anyone with even a simple question a new asshole and a guy screams ‘this is where they send all the employees they cannot get rid of” – believe me when I say drama. I hate going there.

            Heat is blasting and I am hoping it snows tomorrow so I can try out my new boots before the dog piss ruins the NYC winter wonderland…

          61. Kim e says:

            SMH….Welcome to ,my 0315 cant sleep world.

            No I canngt change the way I leave the neighborhood. Imagine a T. The left upper part of the top is the entrance into the complex. The vertical intersecting line is my street. The right side of the top is where he is. There is a back way in and out but it is even closer to his place and I would have to see it every time I was driving. I am just going to practice not lifting my eyes as high as I do when I need to gander down the block. Never realized how much ET effected my entire world. It is a set back but at least since he is gone I will have some peace of mind to get my LT high again.
            Saturday ended up being an ok day. Rained all day long so I just went with the feeling.
            On Friday i had been investigating 23 and Me, If you dont know it is a DNA testing website. I checked it out and that was the end of it. Today I go to the mailbox and there is an Amazon box. I did not remember ordering anything but thought I must have. Inside the box is a gift bag that Amazon uses. Well now I am really baffled. It is a DNA kit from Ancestry!!!! WTH. Then I notice the paper. It says “Merry Christmas Mom. Love C & L”
            I test them and tell them the same story I just told you. My DIL replies “Dont open Amazon boxes til Christmas”> Good to know….LOL
            My oldest son is kinda obsessed with where he comes from since I left his father when he was 18 months and he never saw him or heard from him again. Then maybe 6 years ago, my kid decided to look him up. Long story short, he did not get the response he expected. He then did a DNA test I guess to see where he fit in to the world. He was surprised at how much English he was. That was from his dad. We manage to mess up our kids even if they do not become N’s.
            Worked out on Friday and the class that day is different hen the days I am used to.I am really sore all over. I enjoyed the Friday workout more than I do the Monday and Wednesday workouts. But the last class on Fridays is at 4 and I just cant make it that early.
            Trying to get my ET lowered as if the routine holds true, I will be hoovered again within 48 hours of his return. I really am hating this crap.
            Back to bed for me.

          62. SMH says:

            Kim e, Sorry you were up at 3:00 a.m. It does suck big time and it sucks a lot out of you. I count my lucky stars that he is so far away from me. But I do know what it’s like to try to avoid someone you do not want to see, having lived in a small town too. I left that small town as soon as I could. One reason I like big cities – it is easy to be anonymous. Maybe you should move? Is that an option?

            I do know what 23 and Me is. I’ve thought about it on occasion but a niece did it and did not find out anything that we did not already know, so I didn’t do it. Weird that you got that box but then your son knows you, right??!! Yes we mess them up. I never told mine something his father did. I guess he blames me, but so be it. He’s very chill and never brings it up. Your son never knew his father? Do your sons have the same father?

            I am going to get a good workout in today now that the blotches have faded from my neck!

          63. Kim e says:

            Moving is alwasy an option. An option that I am willing to do right noiw? No. As much as this ahs set me back, my big girl panties are being pulled up and I have got to move forward with my NC. I am back to my ET telling me to unblock him and my LT saying FUCK OFF!!!!!! As long as my LT stays disgusted I am going to be fine. It helped that I realized it only took him 10 weeks to hoover me….LOL. 10 more and I will be that much better off. I know the holidays are coming up. I just need to stay strong. Hide if I have to.
            My oldest sone was 18 months when I packed up and moved with him. His father knew where we were and would pick up C on Sundays and take him to a park, McDonalds, whereever for a couple hours and then bring him back. Then I started dating my next ex. One night he was at my place and the phone rang. I asked jhim to answer it. He did and they hung up. I am assuiming…..34 years and counting, that it was C’s dad because I never heard from him again. Talk about no balls.
            My other son, B, has a different dad. We did ok for awhile but then the dirty empath that hides in my emerged and I was done. I got bored. He always took care of his son and treated C like he was his also. He was at C’s wedding with his bride. She is ok. We talk.

            I was so sore Sunday after my workout Friday and the chiro on Saturday. The workout was a lot of different moves and the chiro really worked my arm and shoulder. I was lviing off Advil. Today It is fine. Working out again tonight. Have to work this ET out of me.

            Sinc eyou ahve a nephew, I am taking it that you sibling(s)? I ahve 5 brothers and sisters but I am an only child.

            Gotta run. Work stuff is starting to come in. Will continue tonight.

            I was surprised you never replied at all regarding my hoover post. !!! ???!!!!

          64. SMH says:

            Kim e, Which hoover post did I miss? As far as I can tell, I’ve replied to everything. I see the posts in my email and read them all. Please direct me!!

            That is too bad C’s father was such a wimp and took it out on the poor kid. But B’s father sounds decent. My son’s father is too, though we definitely had our problems raising him.

            How can you be an only child if you have 5 siblings?? I had three but now I only have two, and one I do not speak to. My birth family is very fucked up but all of the younger generation are okay, so we must have done something right. I am actually closest to a cousin.

            I am heartened to see that you can accept yourself as a DE. I have this moralistic streak that does not allow me to be the cheater but the flip side of that is that it is never my fault. It is always the other person’s fault. lol. I take some responsibility for my fucked-upness, which is why I was happy to be MRN’s IPSS – I told him I was fucked up and did not want to drag some poor sod into my life. It is also why I did not want to take things further with OM. I could tell it was going to be a car crash. But I am aware that I blind spots too.

            We all can only try to be self-aware and do our best!

          65. Kim e says:

            SMH….just for now…more later….

            Hope he had a good time and got some thought fuel for this holiday week.
            I would also like to add that I believe I am going to contact Ripley’s Believe It Or Not as HG is breaking a record with an absent silent treatment to the most people EVER at one time.

          66. SMH says:

            Kim e, I did see that one and thought I responded to it in another comment. But in any case, I thought he was away doing some military thing. Where is he calling from?

          67. Kim e says:

            SMH…not sure if I replied to this after you didnt reply to it….LOL
            The call came in on Tuesday. I did not notice he was gone until Thursday. So it could have come from anywhere he and his phone were

          68. SMH says:

            Kim e, Oh. Well that is easy to do of course with TextMe – duh! I bet that’s what he is using – burner numbers right on his phone. I think you can choose your geographical region too, so it doesn’t even make sense to search the area code. It won’t tell you anything. It’s so creepy. At one point (years ago) I removed the email app from my phone to avoid triggers but of course you can’t do that with calls. The only thing you can do is what you are doing – don’t answer them. He wouldn’t respond even if you did.

          69. Kim e says:

            There was a disconnect somewhere in this thread. The call I got was anonymous which means he blocked the number using *67 before dialing. Any calls I am getting from numbers I do not recognize, I am discounting as not being him. Only anonymous and unknown caller are from him for sure.

          70. SMH says:

            Kim e, I guess there was! Blocking the caller ID is of course the much lower energy way to do it and if he is a mid-ranger, would be the obvious way to go. I see you wrote elsewhere, so I’ll look there before I ask you how you are doing.

          71. Kim e says:

            SMH Hello from the coldness of the midwest. Not as bad as where you are. Everything ok weather wise? Need me to blow the snow for you. ( the mind)
            I am the only child as my mom was married 4 times, I am from her 2nd marriage. My older brother is from her first. I am from my dads 1st marriage. Two sisters and a brother are from my dads 2nd marriage. Another sister is not related to me at all as she is from my stepmoms 1st marriage. But i consider her my sister.
            My family unit is messed up too. After being here I am positive my mom was a MRN………and just a small glimpse into the other weirdness….my dad left my stepmom in his late 50’s for a 17 year old class mate of my youngest sister who after being with him for about 2 years decided she was gay. Cant make this shit up. LOL. It is a wonder I am still alive for all the drugs and motorcycle shit I did. Having my kids straightened me out…..enough to know there were limits to the madness that need to be upheld now.
            I am a DE that like you blame others. Looking for love that I never had. Looking for a daddy figure. Thinking sex was love. Hell it was the chase and catch thrill BUT this time I unknowingly was the victim and I did not like it. I want everything above board. Just like you said, it is the shelving that gets me and the thought of how many more are there in real life let alone virtual. I dont mind sharing as long as the rules are on the table. This game was even too much for me. They talk about 3rd party relationships. shit, this could have been a 6 party relationship.
            ET high tonight. It is right around the time I normally unblock. Not planning on it…just stating facts.
            So if you had not met, gotten entangled and escaped N, do you think you would have felt different about OM?

          72. SMH says:

            Kim e, I am eating popcorn so that was perfect. My oh my. It is a wonder you are sane at all. Did you grow up with the other kids or were they living with other families? How confusing. But at least you got a sister out of the madness. Which reminds me that I meant to tell you how a friend of mine did one of those ancestry tests and discovered (only last year) that her father was not her bio father. She also got a sister out of it because when everything was figured out it turned out she had a half sister living not far away. They have both met the bio father too. What are families anyway? Just a middle class fantasy and part of the narc’s facade.

            No I do not at all think I would have felt differently about OM without MRN. He wasn’t my type – too dependent and melancholic. Happy to be friends with him but even that might have gotten old. You and I both like a challenge and drugs. We both must have that risk taking gene. Don’t unblock!

            Weather was frightful here today. Snow, sleet, slippery, slush. But I did get to wear my new boots.

          73. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Oooooooh, you say the weather outside was FRIGHTFUL?…


            (Don’t worry, I’m leaving for work now)🤗

            Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow🤸‍♀️

          74. SMH says:

            CIF, Now that is frightful! Ha! No, it’s a cute song!

          75. Kim e says:

            I stayed with the 3 younger siblings for 1 week in the summer until I was maybe……12(?) and every holiday. Yet they were jealous of ME!!! I never felt jealous of them living with MY dad as I just understood. I think they were jealous because since I was older I was allowed to do things like stay up later or watch a certain moveie with my step mother that they could not. I beleive the jealousness came for her paying me attention, not the fact that we shared a father. I really only speak to the youngest now and have seriously a couple of times told her to f off, but never know if I might need her for something. I am good enough to be invited to wedding and baby showers for the niece but my kid wasnt even given a wedding gift. Dont get me started……….my geyser will never stop and then my contagion will fell my geyser and get all upset and have to log off…….
            I am interested to get my DNA results back. Maybe you and I are related…LOL
            How is your friedns crazy friend? Did that get cleared up?

          76. SMH says:

            Kim e, Don’t worry, my savior will step in, plug your geyser up and sanitize your contagion. I had a regular family growing up and everyone was jealous of everyone else too, so maybe we are sisters. Did you already send in your DNA sample?

            No word on psychotic woman. Nothing new on FB since yesterday. My friend might have news but I didn’t ask her about it today. I figure if something happens or she needs me, she will let me know.

            I had a long workout and am about to fall asleep. I’ll check in in the morning. What are you doing for your day off?

          77. Kim e says:

            And then my Super will go batshit crazy and I will have to play my martyr card.. But alas….my codependency will kick in and never let me really leave and the masses will be attracted to my magnet. WOW…..What a strange mixture.
            Wish I could find more info on the Martyr cadre…I have looked and cant find.

            Day off is nails, doctor, Christmas walk with a group of friends tonight.

            I mailed my DNA sample on Monday. Results take 6 – 8 weeks. Cant wait for results. At least is something to look forward to.

          78. Caroline-is-fine says:

            One of my friends gave me an ancestry DNA kit for fun, a few years back…I came up all Norwegian, except 6% Finnish🤸‍♀️

            I shall be gone-gone for awhile now~both of you stay warm & well/be good❣ Merry Christmas & Happy 2020🎉

          79. Kim e says:

            CIF…..Same to you girl. Take care and I hope no more holiday hoovers. I am good but cant speak for SMH…..LOL
            Hugs and smooches….

          80. SMH says:

            Kim e, lol. I somehow doubt I have any martyr in me, or just a dollop, like CIF’s Finnish heritage. I guess HG’s empath detector is like a DNA test, right? What’s in your code?? Haha. I too look forward to your results.

            Christmas walk to look at decorations? I am going Xmas shopping today – that is one ‘normal’ thing I am doing.

            CIF, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too! I hope your end of year is great! xo

          81. Kim e says:

            Christmas walk where they closed down the streets int he town, light the Christmas tree, Santa shows up, all the stores stay open late and serve cookies!!! Roasted nuts too……wonder if they are any one I know!!!
            My shopping is done for family as it is all amazon. Just for 1 friend here needed and miscellaneous….nail lady, facial lady…..
            I was surprised by my ED.Not sure why. I think the contagion part is what blew me away…it was the highest % after standard. I will tell you my breakdown of ED later. Off to the docs.

          82. SMH says:

            Kim e, I think you said at one point that you were a ‘mixed bag’ but maybe you just had it done? I don’t know what kind I am but I assume pretty heavily savior. Today I even bought lunch for the doorman/guard at a museum. I needed pizza, he told me where the nearest pizza place was, and I asked him if he wanted me to bring anything back. He said yes lol – I was sure he would say thanks but no. So I brought him a slice of pepperoni for his late lunch.

          83. Violetta says:

            I like Harry Nilsson’s “You’re Breaking My Heart” for a theme song.


          84. Violetta says:

            Forget the pie: throw the whole pumpkin at him if he does it again.

          85. Caroline-is-fine says:

            No pumpkins should get harmed in this narc madness~Lol
            Maybe we should stay away from pumpkin imagery altogether…you know, because of the whole pumpkin turning into a carriage/Cinderella/Prince thing…I think that’s the general script he’s on now – seriously. I wonder when he’ll flip it & start hating my guts.

            I’ve got this weird mix of feeling super calm & also thinking this is mindbogglingly absurd…because, clearly, it is.

          86. SMH says:

            lol Violetta – it only comes in cans during Thanksgiving, unfortunately.

          87. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Too funny😂

          88. Kim e says:

            SMH and Violetta. Can might be better than pie. Heavier and dan he thrown harder. Easier to aim

          89. SMH says:

            Kim e, Violetta and CIF, a new game comes to mind: pin the narc with the can/tin! (Not sure if Brits know pin the tail on the donkey).

          90. Caroline-is-canning says:

            “Can better than pie”😂

            (A can to the noggin outta smarten him up.😂)

          91. Violetta says:

            Even better. Throw the damn cans. Get those 20-ouncers that look like Henry VIII’s ceremonial codpiece in the armor he wore for the Field of the Cloth of Gold.


          92. Violetta says:

            And if the sun don’t come, he’ll get a tan from standing in the English rain

          93. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Violetta~”Tanning in the English rain”🤣

            🎵”He’s taaaanning in the rain – just taaaaanning in the rain…”🎵

            (Bu-bye, Caroline…it’s been nice knowing ya).😳

          94. Violetta says:

            John Lennon mash-up with Gene Kelly?

  3. Kim e says:

    CIF and SMH,
    SMH stated “Please don’t fall for it – knowing he is a mid-ranger requires a whole different sort of analysis. He won’t physically harm you but the manipulations are incredibly….”
    While that statement is true I am going to play devils advocate and just say No other sort of analysis is required. He is a N. That is all the analysis that is needed. Both of you have told me that so I just feel the need to return the favor. No analysis and certainly none of your energy. We are way better then they deserve and we will NOT allow them to take ANY MORE of our time or energy.
    Love hugs and smoochies. Hate me if you want but I had to say it.

    1. SMH says:

      Kim e, You are correct and of course neither of us would hate you. I wrote that because whenever CIF and I chatted, our comparisons would take into account that Narc X was a Greater and Narc Y was a mid-ranger. It somewhat changes what to expect, for instance, as well as interpretations of behaviors. That IS a lot of what we do on here. Love and hugs back.

  4. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG when there are a group of say 20 Ns – all mids, would they all triangulate each other? and would they all feel jealous of one another?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You haven’t provided a context for this group of 20 Mid Range Narcissists, AS2016, but in broad brush terms, any interaction between them would require the assertion of control over one another. This would mean that for some, triangulation would be a manipulation instinctively utilised for the purposes of asserting control. Envy and jealousy would undoubtedly be the manifestations of the unconscious sensation of a loss of control.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you for your answer. It’s a really a rather unusual situation hence the lack of context but your reply is incredibly helpful. I may sit back with a cup of tea and watch it all unfold…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You infiltrated the Mid Range Meeting on Sub Level 3 at Narc Club again?

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            I just can’t keep away! I blend in well with my strong N traits. The mids can’t tell me apart from one of their own. I do need to practice on my pity plays, I’ve mastered the rest! Just future faking them into thinking they’re heading for something very special indeed – they all know they’re deserving of something a bit special – it’s their destiny – what they’ve been searching for all their lives….ahhhh. Then boom! They’ll all have a genuinely sad story to tell!

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Haha, you are ever so charitable. Avoid the crisps on the snack table at these Mid meetings. They’re overly salty from their tears.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahha oooh thanks for the tip NA – I’ll be sure to take my own snacks now. Not sure I could swallow their tears

          4. Kim e says:

            alexissmith2016. Please record the audible for sure and the video if possible. It would make a wonderful podcast or sitcom!!! Looking forward to the results……………LOL. Wish I could join you.

  5. Kim e says:

    “>>>NC count with every misstep, I’d have to restart mine today”
    Last night I couldnt sleep and was looking at IG. I have a friend that is an instructor where the N does his kickboxing. ( he knows I know her, she does not know I know him) She has a post and it is of a halloween party they are having and SURE has there is a HELL, there is N smack dab in the middle of one of the pictures. I froze and just stared. It was like my brain was turned off. I finally looked away and FUCK came out of my mouth. I unfollowed that person….which pisses me off that I had to do that…….She had it in one of the stories you can put on your page that is only there for a couple hours so chnaces of me seeing that picture again are slim to none but never know if she will do more stories. So now, that picture is ingrained in my brain…….And just to ease your worried mind, he did not have a beard…….LOL

    1. SMH says:

      Kim e, That sucks but you will get through it. I hate the way we have to change our activities – that our space is not ours anymore. I’ve seen new pics of MRN but at the time I looked they did not bother me. I would not look now with my ET seemingly high, however. I hope you sleep better tonight, especially knowing that he did not have a beard. But was he carrying a backpack?!

      1. Kim e says:

        SMH…….No back pack either…….
        I slept good last night probably cuz I did not sleep the night before.

        1. SMH says:

          Kim e, Then that apparition wasn’t him. Glad you slept well. I did too and my ET was also much lower today. Maybe our ET rises when we lack sleep? Since narcs keep us up all the time, that might have something to do with it. I am a night owl so getting up early is always a problem for me. I remember way back when sleeping soundly past 5:30 a.m. was a huge step.

          I did think about MRN today but without ET – no longing. I am sure it was him on LinkedIn because of the timing. There are now 2 private views. I think LinkedIn removes them as the days pass so there have not been any new ones, just a removal of the old ones. But that also means that the views were paced because their disappearance is paced. Probably once a week knowing MRN. Nope nothing has changed…

          Anyway, I was super busy today but managed to get to the gym, which I was able to also do yesterday. I was very happy walking home. Was supposed to have dinner with a friend tonight but that is switched to Sunday so I am waiting for another friend to call. Apt guy wants to Skype again. There is no reason to – everything can be done in writing. He could be a wacko but what do I care since I won’t be here and will have taken my undies with me :).

          1. Renarde says:

            Kim e

            Dont beat yourself up. That sounds like one of the ghosts in the machine. It happens. I get it way too much.

            The way you’ve explained, is it really realistic that you could have possibly known?

            I can utterly relate to your shock. I once had an everpresence reminder from a song. And it wasnt one that we mutually liked either!

          2. SMH says:

            Renarde, I get everpresence reminders from songs all the time and we never even discussed or listened to music! I have no idea what he liked or disliked. It’s so annoying.

          3. Renarde says:


            Its crap and especially in your case.

  6. hroot83 says:

    Can you explain more on the difference between tendency and a true narcissist? If you have spoke or written on this I apologize, new here. I’m a bit confused and a lot lost as to what is happening in my life. After reading some of these blog posts I believe my husband might be a MRN or an UMR. I would assume since he has been diagnosed as having strong tendencies that he has some awareness. I know a consult would be best but that isn’t an option for me as I’m still married and pretty much under the thumb and we have 3 boys.
    Thanks in advance for whatever you can supply.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See “Narcissistic or Narcissist”. If it is not clear thereafter, consult with me.

      1. hroot83 says:

        The example is clear, however how do I know if I’m being manipulated due to ET. I mean he uses sorry, and I feel does have some empathy but what if it’s a lie. Ugh, being so unsure is frustrating. Does someone with tendencies have the ability to evolve or is it still GOSO?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If you are breaching the first golden rule of freedom you are being governed by ET. If you are unsure, arrange a consultation and I will assist you.

        2. SMH says:

          hroot83, sorry for butting into your conversation with HG but to my mind, if you are unhappy or scared it doesn’t matter if your husband has NPD or just tendencies. When you say you are ‘under the thumb’ what do you mean?

        3. Renarde says:


          Hmm ‘sorry’ is indicative but not determinate. What I take from your posts is that you’re not happy.

          I suggest a consult.

  7. Alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, a close elderly friend of mine died a while ago. She was relatively wealthy and had the same financial advisor for several decades. He was a holy N financial advisor. She only knew him as a financial advisor and not ever as a friend.

    outside of seeking financial advice from him she had no interaction with him and that is a fact not an interpretation or my perception (to save your reading time I won’t go into the detail of how I know that).

    A few years ago she asked me to accompany her on one of his visits. He gave her wholly misappropriate advice And had she followed his advice he would have screwed her out of a substantial amount of money.

    I strongly advised her to not follow this advice, explained why and she did not. I also suggested she find a new advisor. Sadly she continued with him.

    A few days before she passed away, he visited her on her death bed. She was unable to speak but capable of understanding And able to communicate yes or no. After he had gone I said that it was weird he had visited her and she agreed.

    Three weeks later he came to her funeral and treated close family and friends as if he was close with them, he was not.

    Long story for a simple question. If you could please assume everything I’ve said to be correct.

    Why would be come to her funeral? All I can think of is likening it to when you watch documentaries or films and they say a murderer always turns up at the funeral etc. He had no part in her death. I therefore imagine that he would have derived some sick pleasure from knowing he had screwed her over at some point (he did seem somewhat elated?) and this was him just coming along to prove to himself what a powerful and devious person he is.

    I feel physically sick as I’m writing this.

    All the above is fact but I do not know whether he actually got away with anything. That part is an assumption based on the fact I know he tried. I know he did not get away with it the time I accompanied her and she definitely never took up that advice from him.

    Based on the above do you think he did a screw her over in some way? At another time, with another product. Is that why he went to her funeral and turned up on her death bed? Fuel?

    Ah god this is so gross.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Control. He wanted to ensure that there was no suspicion aimed at him, thus he attended the funeral where he would also gain fuel.

      I cannot add anything further (although there may be more) without knowing the school of narcissist he is.

      1. Thank you so much HG, although I do feel physically sick and want revenge on this person. I don’t know what school of N he is sadly, or I would have loved to know more.

        The first time I met him (when my friend asked me to accompany her), I knew I didn’t like him instantly. I had no clue about Ns back then but before he even opened his mouth and said anything I took a dislike to him. Like you could almost see him coil up in his own drool as he salivated over the prospect of tricking her.

        He was smarmy and sly. I know by and large these types will be. He sent chills down my spine even then.

        Since I’ve learned about Ns and the schools from you. It is only the greaters who give me chills, but I think that is probably because I know how cold an cunning they are rather than because of some kind of ESP. But back then I guess, I sensed he was not a kind man.

        thank you anyway. Obviously if I told that story to any of my friends, they would think it a little odd. But not suspect anything and instead probably believe (because he was a church goer) that he was just caring about his clients.

        So it feels good to get some perspective and validation from you. Thanks x

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’re welcome

        2. Narc noob says:

          Interesting alexissmith2016, that only the GN give you the chills. Fair call I guess given they are calculating.

          You must have felt relieved when your friend took your advise!

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah so relieved, but now quite sickened that because of his behaviour when she was dying and at her funeral, I know he got away with something, just don’t know what?

            I think the chills is probably more linked to the fact that perhaps with the Lessers and Mids (Whilst I can’t always work out exactly what they’re up to, thanks to HG I usually have a fair idea – plus, because it is by instinct, they actually believe they are doing things with good intent???? bizarre still but it takes the chill away lol). Greaters have some predictability but vast amounts of what they do is not. The greaters know what they are (this is probably the chilling bit), they do it all with intent rather than instinct and I only know a few – thank god!
            So the chill I experience is probably an emotional response linked to sound logic if that makes sense.

            Do you get any kind of chill when you encounter an N, Narc noob?

  8. ceyceyc says:

    sorry HG. i had problem with refreshing the page. i couldn’t see my comment then i sent it once again. now there are two of the same comments here. i didn’t want to invade

  9. aapzonderstaart says:

    Hello HG,

    Can you tell us what those fives rules are that you use in order to tell an unwitting narcissist what he or she is ? Because till now i only use two,and that is,1 whenever i feel like doing so. And 2 i have to be willing to discard them right after i told them.

  10. Kim e says:

    Up his hoover game…..this made me chuckle. Like he is being scored on it.
    And yes you are correct…married 2 times. Not sure why I married either one of them. Good things from both were my boys.
    I also always think/thought of myself as IPSS.. My understanding of IPSS versus DLS is the DLS would never be promoted to IPPS. Our “dates” were always at very crowded places near where we live or work. Nothing hidden. When we went to dinner a couple weeks ago, when he picked me up he seemed very anxious. He was picking me up a block from his house and having to drive out of the neighborhood in daylight. We had gone out before from my house but it was always in the middle of the day when everyone else was at work. He had just gotten off the train with his new CIPSS and the trains were running late. He said he was running late…which he does hate….and that was it. I let it go. First time I had ever seen him frazzled. I was surprised he even picked me up and didnt just tell me to meet him at the restaurant
    And now miss smartie pants, you say you can tell me exactly how I will convince myself to break NC. Tell away.
    Hope your trip is going well and you are staying out of trouble. I am off today for a couple of days. Word PRess doesnt like my phone and I am not dragging my computer with me. So I will “talk” over the weekend. I am back Saturday.

    1. SMH says:

      Kim e, I got a boy from one of them too. A good thing indeed! I shouldn’t have married the second one.

      Funny that your narc goes out in public with you when you are a DLS. How does that work? MRN and I never went anywhere – he always came to my place. I don’t know if I was in line for promotion at any point but his behaviors suggested IPSS because I was tested a lot.

      You will break NC by convincing yourself that you can handle it because you are strong and have always been able to handle everything else.

      Oyster man couldn’t wait and emailed me this morning instead of waiting for me to email him. He “decided” we shouldn’t see each other again. In the first email he ever sent, he told me that he gets overly enthusiastic and involved very quickly, and it turns women off. He did exactly that and when I pushed back and tried to get him to dial it down a bit, he cut and ran. I have to laugh. Maybe he was a codependent – needs to be needed? But I am not a narc so his attention was not fuel for me.

      Hope you are enjoying your time away. I am also away but have my laptop with me (I don’t do narcsite on my phone either – or very rarely).

      1. Kim e says:

        Funny that your narc goes out in public with you when you are a DLS. How does that work? MRN and I never went anywhere – he always came to my place. I don’t

      2. Kim e says:

        HG..sorry…didnt mean to send this before without asking the question.
        SMH stated that her N never took her out in public where as mine never had an issue with it. We were described by you as DLS. Why would her N not take her out but mine would?
        Also you stated that FWB and Booty call were other names for DLS yet when you describe IPSS categories, DLS is by itself.
        Not questioning you. Just trying to grasp what the differences are.

        Thank you

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As I understand from the information you provided me, the narcissist took you out in public on the very few occasions you spent time together and it was just you and him, thus there was no integration with the rest of his world. You were compartmentalised in a world which was just you and him, separate from everything else, in the same way SMH was – that is the key factor.

          1. ceyceyc says:

            we spent too much time together in public – most of time hand in hand- . i guess the point is meeting with his circle, be knowin by others am i right?

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. SMH says:

            Ah, that makes sense, HG. I was way compartmentalized, so compartmentalized that I told MRN I was astonished by his compartmentalization abilities. But I know a lot of it was about control – he felt safe and we could relax in my flat. The one time someone saw him, he handled it very smoothly. I was under the impression that a DLS would be someone with whom the narc would not be seen in public because she would be not of equal social status, or something like that – not good enough. Am I way off? I never felt that way with MRN. We were social and intellectual equals. Also, I once asked you what married man would take his mistress out and parade her to his friends and family? They all compartmentalize in that situation.

            Another question – MRN once came over on a weekend to meet my (adult) son, who was staying with me at the time. Of course I had not told my son that MRN was married. But I was pretty astonished that MRN followed through. Did he want to see me so badly that he was willing to meet my son? Was he just curious? Was he seeing if I was candidate material? Why did he cross that boundary? I never could figure it out. It was right after that day that things blew up. To me it felt like we got too close and neither of us could handle it.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            We will do or say whatever is necessary in order to assert control and if that includes meeting your son, so be it. It may well have been part of the unconscious assessment of your suitability for candidate status, but I would need more information and context to establish that.

          5. SMH says:

            Of course. In the end, it did not happen because my son was asleep the whole time MRN was there! Ha. I was relieved to be honest, because had they met, and then things blown up (which they did), I would have had to explain – my son is not all that interested but it would have been embarrassing. The way things played out, I did not need to say anything to my son, but I did tell MRN that he had put me in an awkward position.

            MRN was aware that my son and his three kids were at the same school at the same time – in different grades but lots of friends in common. Had he and my son met, this might also have come up in conversation. This made it especially dangerous and it would have breached all of MRN’s attempts at compartmentalization. That is why I think it must have been unconscious candidate testing or MRN just did not think of the possible consequences (maybe not as a mid-ranger).

        2. empath007 says:

          I used to be insulted I was a secret as well. Sure we’d go out every now and then but I was compartmentalized as well and it made me feel insulted. Now that I escaped… I consider it a blessing I was hidden. Who cares if he insulted me to his dumb friends that don’t even know me, or his stupid family who doesn’t know me. What do I care what people whom I’ll never meet think? I don’t.

          Being hidden is blessing. See it as good thing.

          1. Kim e says:

            I dont see how they could smear a DLS. They would then have to admit that we existed and that would threaten the facade.
            Not to offend, but you sound very hurt that you were hidden. Dumb friends and stupid family lead me to believe you were/are very hurt that you were hidden.

          2. empath007 says:

            I was hurt at the time. Very. But a lot of that was me not thinking straight and had to do with my pride.

            I can have a fowl mouth when I want too, so that’s all that’s about. I do look down on people that can’t figure him out a bit.

            I’ve Been no contact for 15 months now so I truly am happy I was hidden. The only reasons I even still
            Think about him is because we work for the same company still… so I am always looking over my shoulder. I am planning on leaving but am looking for something else currently.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I have read your thread about being hidden, in my case it was obviously meant to be like that. However, he took some liberties in front of our common friends and even of my husband while we were entangled; for example, he stayed in my house way after everyone left my birthday party with just my husband and me, talking and drinking, which obviously made me feel weird. He also sat next to me and my husband at a bar we went to with a group of friends and he kept drinking from my glass of wine, allegedly by mistake, instead of from his. I think he did all of this on purpose to assert his control and ownership of me. I honestly don’t care whether I was a DLS or an IPSS, but the fact he was triangulating me with another supply outside of his marriage and making us compete against each other while at times asking me if I ever wish our circumstances were different makes me think of the latter. But who cares. I wouldn’t fight for him anyway so I prefer it to stay as a secret, dirty but little.

          4. empath007 says:

            Ya he probably wanted to cause tension between a) yourself and your husband b) himself and his wife and c) you and the other IPSS…. oh the triangulation !! The fuel !! The “power” to make all these people angry 🤣 plus as an UL he was probably just generally more sloppy and anything in the name of fuel.

            You keep your empath. Forget that looser.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            He is so fucking entitled and grandiose -while being so rudimentary at the same time- that I was worried he was gonna make everything known for being so clumsy. My husband even told me once he didn’t like the bold sexual flirtation he kept with me on social media. He didn’t worry about anything or anyone. I kept telling him to be less obvious but he didn’t care. I’m sure now he and his wife have a million arguments even though she pretends to be cool.

          6. empath007 says:

            Lol. Well I like that your husband took notice. Shows he’s paying attention and perhaps a little protective? (I like that in a man)

            Can you tell I’m jealous of you btw? Don’t think I hide it well or even try 🤣🤣

            Where’s my Testrone driven empath already?!?!? Where! 🤣

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Empath007, too much testosterone that night. Narc constantly grabbing my glass, husband referring to me as “his wife” instead of my real name, and me sitting in between the two thinking I am not anyone’s property for fuck’s sake. You don’t want that, be it from a narc or from an empath. But yes, my husband knew I was attracted to narc and he didn’t say anything for a while even when we did a lot of things together as friends. If he found out what happened and how much I had to go through, I don’t doubt he would get in a fight with him. I don’t dream about that!

          8. empath007 says:

            Jealousy is like a fetish of mine (as immature as that may be) so that sort of scenario only turns me on. My narc would occasionally be jealous of other men’s advances in our work place and I loved it. I also enjoyed being jealous of other women… having a big argument… and then making love….. I don’t deny I may need therapy 🤣🤣

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Empath007, jealousy is my Achilles’ heel. My narc quickly found out that triangulation was the only tactic that really worked with me. I would have chewed the other women’s heads and spit them out if I had the opportunity back then. I have always been fortunate to get any person I set eyes on despite competition so this was a very painful experience for me. I know now that he used me to triangulate them too so it was like playing billiards with different balls, there’s no favorite ball, at some point some ball is gonna be used to hit another one. I am so so so so relieved I am not consumed by those negative feelings any longer. I lost weight, I lost sleep, I got up at 4 in the morning to check whether he and the other woman were chatting online. It was like walking on quicksands every step got me deeper into his shit. Fuck no, I don’t want to go back to that ever again. You’re not jealous of me, you are just hopeful that you can also get to meet a person that really has feelings and not a reflection of yours. And you will! Fuck narcs and their mirror games.

          10. empath007 says:

            Oh… I know alllll about loosing sleep at 4am and checking up on other women. Hell I’d even drive by his house when I suspected someone was there.

            Would I want that long term? No. Of course not. Of course it hurt me a lot. Which is why I left.

            But I have to admit there is something about that jealous arguing that I connect with. I just get turned on by it.

            But in the end the other girls can have him… and I’ve hit the point now where I see it as a win for me.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Empath007, I just remembered that, if you cannot about your narc in November when you attend the conference, instead of looking him in the eyes, look at his forehead; it’s been proven to make people feel uncomfortable and insecure.

          12. empath007 says:


          13. SMH says:

            Good to know, SP – the forehead thing!

          14. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m curious to see if it works, gonna try it today. On random people. Just in the name of science.

          15. SMH says:

            SP, how did it go? any freak outs?

          16. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha yes it freaks people out BIG DEAL. It’s my favorite new toy now.

          17. SMH says:

            lol SP. I’m going to have to try it.

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I meant “avoid,” sorry! Typing in the middle of a traffic jam.

          19. SMH says:

            SP, I once had this bizarre situation at a crowded bar with my then boyfriend. A good friend of mine came in with her father who was visiting. The father was very charismatic and clearly now to my mind a narc. Well, the next thing you know, the father is all handsy with me and squishing me up against the bar with my friend sitting right across from us and seeing the whole thing. My boyfriend was about to punch him and I felt the same way you did – what did I do to deserve this? My friend never brought it up and I never dared bring it up either! Her family had the perfect facade.

          20. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            Seeing you with your husband was challenge fuel so he triangulated, by “mistakenly” drinking out of your wine glass, to exert control, assert superiority and draw fuel. That was a great example of grandiosity (you are his to possess), sense of entitlement and lack of boundary recognition.

            I’m going with a Corrective Devaluation.

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            K, I didn’t even think he cared I was with my husband that night! I didn’t see him as jealous of him. He tried many times to ask me personal questions about our sexual life, but I told him that was not his business. He also tried to tell me some anecdotes that happened to his wife and I told him I preferred not to know. He, on the contrary, was always open to hear me talk about my husband but I never did. I hadn’t stop loving my husband and was not gonna start criticizing him, that was not it. I guess he wanted to hear I was desperate to leave him or that he was better? Who knows and who cares.

          22. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            We project our worldview onto the narcissist so we are blindsided when they do strange (from our POV) things, like drinking out of your wine glass. He is pathologically jealous and your husband was viewed as competition. All of your emotional attention should be for the narcissist and no one else and he was open about talking about your husband and your sex life so he could instinctively gather information (to exploit when necessary) and you were smart enough not to give in to his salami slicing.

            He just wanted to exert superiority and control so he could get your emotional reactions/fuel.

          23. Sweetest Perfection says:

            K, it was definitely strange, because he invited everyone to a round of Spanish cava. He had his own glass but kept drinking from mine. I thought at first that he made a mistake and said nothing. But he kept on doing that and I said jokingly: “hey, drink from your own glass!”. He didn’t laugh, apologize, nothing, he simply stared at me. So he knew what he was doing. I didn’t think he was jealous of my husband until you pointed it out; I remember now how much he brought him out in our conversations -though I always refused to talk about my marriage with him- and lately, I remember that my husband made a comment. He posted on Facebook some time ago some recognition the city gave him for his work, which has to do with some form of social justice so it’s empathic-related. As you all know, my narc keeps being connected to him on Facebook. He said something like “it’s crazy that everyone has congratulated me for this achievement but this arrogant motherfucker.” I simply said “you know how he is, if he’s not the spotlight he probably didn’t even read your post.” But yes, it makes sense now that you mention it, no matter how hard he tried to convince me that he didn’t care.

          24. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            “hey, drink from your own glass!” = Challenge Fuel.

            Shit, he gave you “The Stare” accompanied by a short silent treatment. Wounding and challenge fuel can be intermingled. He unconsciously views you as an object, you belong to him and he needed to assert his perceived superiority over you.

            Damn skippy he was jealous. Your husband is a threat to his perceived control over you and any information gathered would have been used instinctively to further his aims.

            There’s no way in hell that he will congratulate him; this has Corrective Devaluation written all over it and the only thing he cares about is your fuel.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            K, he’s jealous of everything. He actually triangulated me with my original hometown. Because there are not any more cities in Europe to visit, he decided to go there with his ugly wife. He kept tagging me in all of their pictures. He also left his wife in the hotel most nights and wandered around the city alone, while chatting with me online. During their whole trip, I felt like my eyes were gonna bleed and fall out for so much crying. I obviously wanted to be there with him instead of her. What an asshole.

          26. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            That bastard! He was triangulating you, his wife and your original hometown to create drama, contrast and two fuel streams. Very efficient. He was getting proximate and thought fuel.

            I didn’t realize how jealous they can be until I found narcsite. It’s very eye-opening.

          27. SMH says:

            K, I agree. MRN once told me about a woman he worked with in whom he was interested. They were at a work function/reception and were drinking shots. His boss arrived and took some sort of interest in this woman. I could tell as MRN told me this story that it made him feel small – the two men were probably both narcs, the boss a Greater. lol. That’s what I think.

          28. K says:

            Ha ha ha…it was a Narc Off! Two of them competing for the same fuel source; classic triangulation. May the best narc win and reap the benefits of The Prime Aims.

          29. SMH says:

            K, I believe she won because she backed away from both of them. She was young-ish and wanted kids. MRN did not want more kids and told me he would have dumped her ‘within a year.’ The whole story makes sense to me now. I guess he was saving face.

          30. K says:

            She most certainly did win. Before narcsite, I would refer to incidents like these as “dick measuring contests”. It’s all about supremacy and he rewrote it to exert control and maintain the facade.

          31. SMH says:

            K, yep. Dick measuring and we know how they feel about their dicks. I have to say that when he told me this story I was a tad jealous as months previously he had tried to triangulate me with this same woman (and with IPPS at the same time). But I then realized that he was a fantasist and that the facade was just that. I also got him back because this woman had an ‘exotic’ background (exotic to some). I was once truly involved with a man of the same background, which I saved up to nonchalantly mention to MRN one day (I liked to drop little bombshells while pretending that I was oblivious). I won that round too.

          32. K says:

            When you see through the facade, you discover that The Wizard of Oz is just a little man behind the curtain and he’s really nothing special.

            Ha ha ha….your Empath Riposte Grenade reminded me of: 5.“Jim has one only his is better.”

          33. SMH says:

            K, yup. I had one only he was real. Yours was fake. I actually got to fuck him – a lot – and you didn’t get to fuck her at all. Plus mine had a higher degree than you do (MRN asked me what he did, so I told him).

          34. ceyceyc says:

            i sent a message his IPSS once. she knows me as a girl who disturb his husband. i guess she also knows his new secret but i think she suspects me, he doesn’t deny it. we had an argument on the phone once when he was with a friend. being hidden is blessing but it doesn’t an obstacle to labeling as “crazy”. he blocked me everywhere but he still holds my best friends’ number -she can see his info on whatsapp- my friend blocked him but i am sure if he could he’d talk about me.

            i don’t care too. but i can see he doesn’t miss any chance for paint me black, even when he’s gone

          35. empath007 says:

            Being painted black is a compliment. Sure… it means you are subject to malign treatment all over the place.

            But it also means… you escaped… you don’t play by their rules… they can’t play puppeteer with you like they can with those painted white who operate “correctly”

            Took me a long time to think about him hating me as the best compliment he could have ever given me. Cause this one is geniune, not riddled in bullshit… he hates me and it’s because he can’t control me…. and that’s a beautiful thing.

            So congrats! Cheers to being painted black and keeping it that way 🥂

          36. HG Tudor says:

            Being painted black is not a compliment. The fact that you continue to have regard to the manner by which he regards you shows he continues to win, you remain under a form of control through your emotional thinking. By continued application of GOSO you will throw off these shackles and come to realise this.

          37. empath007 says:

            It’s simply a fact he regards me in that way. And he does so because I dont comply with his wishes. All I’m saying is in my mind it’s a compliment. It took me a long time to gain that perspective and it has helped me heal. Because I no longer want to reach out and apologize about anything the way he wants me too.

          38. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I understand what you mean, not that he is actually complimenting you by painting you black, but that, from our perspective, we should feel proud to know we are not “good enough” to be painted white which on the other side of the looking glass is GREAT NEWS.

          39. empath007 says:


          40. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Although I doubt mine painted me black. He was trying to shelve me, though. He actually told me so! His idea was to “retain a relationship” with me once we got back to our routines after the summer break. I’m the winter coat of Narcland, waiting in a box until the start of the winter season when they remember I can be of use! Yay.

          41. empath007 says:

            I cared for the longest time about mine liking me. Especially because we worked together. My ET would tell me to reach out to him for so long to try and burry the hatchet so to speak… to “be mature” apologize for my part in things etc etc. I kept putting it off… and I’m glad I did. Because I’m not going to apologize for giving him what he wanted… which is fuel. Now I understand it’s OK if people hate me. I don’t need to make everyone like me all the time. Him hating me is his business and he’s allowed to hate me. That does not mean I have to care about it. Or respond to it.

            Him hating me will make it much easier when I see him at the work thing too. In the past I would melt when he was begnin. So being malign makes it easier for me to remember what a jerk he is.

            That’s why I view it as a compliment.

            As for you. Be proud you’ve remained out of it. Affairs might be exciting but if it means Rimining your real
            Life it’s not worth it.

          42. NarcAngel says:

            Better to be a scarf so you can strangle the fuck out of him when he opens his mouth.

          43. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, whatever metamorphosis into something that keeps his mouth shut works for me.

          44. Narc noob says:

            E007, l think you are right. Being hidden is not so bad when you have to wear the DLS badge. It probably makes things easier when the SC is rolled out also. Well that is unless you are like me and make a bigger mess of it than was originally planned 🙄😆

          45. ceyceyc says:

            “… he hates me and it’s because he can’t control me…. and that’s a beautiful thing.”
            i agree with this, with all my heart.

            I wish I knew what hoover means before. I could have been more cautious after countless escapes. if i knew, i wouldn’t look back.
            but it was better. i let him win -without being aware- he used his last bullet for shooting my “separation insecurity” . i let him say the last word. otherwise he wouldn’t let me go, things had become malignant.

            i also understand HG’s comment. like “all roads lead to Rome” , every wrong step gives him power.

            congratulate your 15th month. mine is 5th yet. I have very few problems except checking his ipps’ IG account -“rarely” but i prefer to “never”- i tried to focuse on myself with baby steps. i hope i will succeed.

          46. empath007 says:

            Good work ! You will succeed ! This recovery thing is not for the faint at heart ❤️

        3. Narc noob says:

          I dont see how they could smear a DLS. They would then have to admit that we existed and that would threaten the facade.”

          They can smear by association and that association is simply by deceiving IPPS that there is someone else lurking, someone else on the sniff, after them. They don’t have to admit there has been any intimate relations etc.

          1. Renarde says:

            Narc Noob

            Oh agreed there. I was going to write very nearly the same.

            WTTE that in 5 seconds I thought of three ways to devalue and smear the DLS.

      3. Kim e says:

        I found it so strange that I never felt like a DLS either. I was insulted when HG told me that is what I am because I never felt like I was hidden. I have asked HG why my N did not hide me but yours did if we were both DLS’.
        Oyster man…poor guy. Just wants to be needed. I like the way he decided to not see you any more. Takes all the pressure off you…LOL Are we taking odds as to when and if he emails again?
        My time away was great. Went hiking, vegging and reading…OH…and eating and drinking. Driving back home I could feel the anxiety rising. Please don’t tell me I have to move to get this to be over. Moving parking has helped. But of course HG was right and since I escaped now I am just wondering how and when the hoover will come. Guess that is pretty stupid of me to do as it could be months
        Are you back from your journey? How did it go?

        1. SMH says:

          Kim e, I asked HG once too because of course if you are having an affair you are not going to parade your mistress around town (most men wouldn’t) or introduce her to your family. I don’t remember his answer but I left DLS in the dust because MRN and I had a lot in common and he treated me like what I came to call his ‘alt-wife,’ including post-escape. I know it was all smoke and mirrors but he wouldn’t have talked to me about life-changing things had he not had a modicum of admiration. He was really curious about me, perhaps a tad envious and, as I said, he wanted to meet my son. He acknowledged on some level that I had a full life that wasn’t just about him. In fact, he asked so many questions that during one of our death spirals I threw it back at him – how come you are allowed to ask me whatever you want about my life? I always answer but god forbid I should ask you a question about anything!!

          As for oyster-man, well, for awhile over the weekend I was pissed off – his generosity was actually a form of selfishness. I was thinking about how he physically crowded me when we were having dinner the last time we saw each other. I kept trying to get comfortable with the space and he wouldn’t give me any. Just like what he did emotionally. But I did not write back and have mostly forgotten about it now. I don’t think he’s the type to email again if I do not respond, but who knows!!

          Glad you had a good trip. I did too and have a lot of pending things today. I know how you feel coming home. My anxiety levels would also rise when I’d return. MRN is now gone so it’s my city again, but the last time I had to return when he was still there, I did not contact him until I felt used to being there without him. The same can be said for any space you occupied with yours – one thing that made me uncomfortable was that MRN and I always saw each other at my place. I did not want that to become a problem for me when things went south, so I was very conscious of protecting it by, for instance, always having lots of visitors so lots of people in my space. You just have to power through it and soon it will seem normal, hoover or not. Have a party! That’s what I would do! Just don’t break NC. Give yourself a chance to close those psychic and physical gaps.

          1. Kim e says:

            SMH….funny thing is this last time that I went NC was caused by seeing him walking that dog. He talked about getting that dog when we were together. After I saw him I thought WTF….I saw you 2 night ago for dinner and you never mentioned this dog that you got 4 months ago? We do talk a lot about both of us and he does ask me questions. I ask him about his girls and military stuff.
            I did tell him at dinner that I was sorry I “disappeared”. He said…..”that is OK. You were busy with school”. I said” No. That was over with.” (proving he has no concept of time and the thing just picks up where it left off. On 8/14 I sent him a pic of my diploma that I got in April. He commented “wow..that was awhile ago”. Yet a week later it doesn’t dawn on him that I had graduated when I disappeared…….)
            Anyway, I told him I disappered because just because he doesnt do emotions, I do and sometimes mine over whelm me and I need to back off. He said..I get it. I told him I would probably disappear again too. He just looked at me.
            I know that he is married and that really doesnt bother me as I have done married in the majority of my relationships. A shrink would have a field day with me. But I am not doing 15 other people.
            Sorry to ramble. ET still not under control. I want to cry today. Want to go home and sleep and cry.
            But what the hell….you tell me it will only take me 4 – 6 months……..if he hoovers I am dead

          2. SMH says:

            Kim e, Sorry you are feeling so down but glad you can make a joke about the 15 other people!

            Honestly, yours sounds so much like mine – no emotions, no concept of time, no real engagement with what you are saying, (allegedly) no memories of what was discussed, weird hoovers. It is bizarre. You know I came to the conclusion that mine had a mental illness. Towards the end, it helped me to break my attachment and attraction because I clearly saw the immature little boy. Who knows if I would still feel the same way now but I don’t think they can present themselves any differently. We have seen what they are and what they do.

            Didn’t bother me that mine was married either and I think that’s because I knew we could never have a real relationship anyway. It would be different with someone with whom I could envision a life. I don’t normally do married but I did once before decades ago. That relationship was fine. It ended on a good note for both of us after about a year and a half. Since MRN, however, it seems that I am mostly attracted to married men! I think it is an intimacy problem for us too, which might also be why I had such a strong reaction to oyster man.

            A therapist might well be able to help you work through it. I did go to therapy for quite awhile when I was with MRN but I did all of the escaping on my own because my therapist was trying to help me to manage it instead of getting out. She had seen me through a few months during the demise of my marriage and thought I was way more attached to MRN than I had been to my ExLH, which was true. She had some good insights but I had to tell her MRN was a narcissist after finding HG. She believed me but by then I had escaped already and told IPPS (which my therapist had said I should do). I think a therapist combined with HG can be really helpful. I look at therapy as a chance to talk about stuff to someone who is paid to listen.

          3. ceyceyc says:

            hi SMH,

            i felt like I lived your story. i’m still surprised that many things are similar and once again admire your ability to analyze

            i realized that I missed him,a few days ago. it was the first time in a long time. menstrual periods and pms are very dangerous. ET increases. this week was very difficult. i felt that he would call me – of course he didn’t-

            it’s been 6 months. i want to write about the sequence of events:
            he blocked me in whatsapp/phone calls in February. we used just a messenger app and we met twice a week until April.
            he sent me his last message in April. and after 2 weeks he opened his online date site profile again.
            he didn’t log out messenger, my messages was delivered but he was careful about “read receipt”. he closed it in late May.
            he closed his date site profile page in late August.
            probably,it’s all about corrective/ disengagement devaluation. we were fighting very often. he was mean to me. he said he wanted to trust me. i thought his attitudes had to be improved first. but what he wanted was for me to obey. and so the story came to an end.

            sorry,i wrote the details because i wanted to explain why don’t i wait a hoover or whatever. i am sure that he turned off the faucet. there is no positive/negative fuel. maybe ,as you said, just a thought fuel. but apparently he got what he wanted from the dating site. i guess there is no thought or no fuel for me.
            i felt like that he had boxes -before i found HG-. a wife box, a friend box, a lover box etc. the task of each person in boxes were clear. i thought that if he found someone new, my mission was over. now i understand that these are related to the fuel matrix.

            for short ; yes everything is about fuel. but the fuel is not about me nowadays.

            i don’t know, maybe i should find a new way. i decided to remember him as an one night stand. because remembering as a 2-years relationship is too sad for me.

            someone should find the memory erasing drug !

          4. SMH says:

            ceyceyc, You make me laugh – remembering him as a one night stand and a memory erasing drug – someone could make a fortune from that! I see you understand the absurdity of it all. Believe me, I was not very good at analyzing anything when I first got here. I knew what was wrong with MRN from other sources, but I did not know how it worked in the day-to-day and certainly not how to analyze it.

            The one thing I want to stress is that we spend a lot of time trying to figure out what they are up to (I still do that, obviously) but we really have no way of knowing because we do not know how extensive their fuel matrices are and we don’t know the state of other fuel sources (are they black or white, shelved or not? etc).

            I am pretty certain that when I was with MRN his only other intimate fuel source was IPPS, but he also had many other fuel sources in his kids, his family, people he worked with etc.

            For instance, one evening he was supposed to come over. He didn’t show up and I got angry and decided to go to his house (I was fed up and IPPS was away at the time). Almost as soon as I left my house, he messaged me that he had gone out for a drink with his workmates (of course had not bothered to tell me). I told him how lucky he was for messaging me, meaning that I was heading to his house, though I did not tell him that. In that scenario, he got fuel from drinking with his workmates and obviously he thought they were better fuel than I was at the moment, or perhaps he was trying to get negative fuel out of me (I didn’t give it to him – did not let him know how angry I was), but the workmates were not intimate sources.

            Fast forward seven months and he wanted to come over to my place after six months NC. I didn’t want him to come over but finally I said, okay but you are not coming in. I will kiss you at the door and that is it. He had to have a drink with a client first and was messaging me the whole time. Then he realized that one of his daughters was leaving the country the next day (!!) and he had better get home to see her. He made this decision while he was in an underground station, trying to decide which train to take. I kept saying go home (because he was drunk and I didn’t know if I wanted to see him anyway) and finally he did. But he came over the next morning at 7:30 a.m.

            What is the difference between these two scenarios? In both he is drinking and in both the other fuel sources were not intimate ones. In the first, he had a better fuel source. In the second, I WAS the better fuel source.

            It had nothing to do with me per se, it had to do with what other sources were available. His client was not a fuel source (and neither was his daughter, apparently, since he did not even remember that she was leaving the country the next day) but his workmates were at that moment and/or he was trying to get negative fuel from me.

            Your narc might have gotten what he wanted from the dating site or he might not have. There might be other sorts of fuel sources or he might have just chatted with a few women and felt fueled up. No way to know. He might hoover soon, he might not until later, but he very likely will and you should be prepared for that. I always tell myself that if MRN directly hoovers me, I will come here immediately so that HG and everyone can tell me to ignore it and not respond!

            Also, the boxes you talk about are called compartmentalization. HG has posts about this. MRN was a master at compartmentalizing – I even told him that I had never met someone who could compartmentalize the way he did. When I found narcsite, that is one of the things that most astonished me – HG was so very accurate about that.


          5. SMH says:

            And sorry it took me so long to respond, ceyceyc. I have barely had a minute the past few days (it is now past midnight here).

        2. SMH says:

          Kim e, Just an addendum. Something compelled me to look at IPPS’s IG this afternoon (it is public because she tries to have a niche and a ‘following’). IG has been a trove of information for me over the years, including noticing odd patterns, such as neither IPPS nor MRN ever commenting on each other’s posts but always ‘liking’ them immediately, IPPS never posting a picture of MRN; MRN only posting a pic of IPPS with their kids; neither of them ever mentioning or tagging the other, etc.

          Something has changed. MRN has disappeared completely from IPPS’s posts. She still doesn’t mention him or give any indication that they are together, but the last picture of him was last November at an extended family dinner with just his head sticking out from between other people. The main thing I noticed is that he doesn’t ‘like’ her posts anymore (he would like every single one of them, always among the first). He didn’t even ‘like’ the posts of their kids, which is really weird. And one of her posts was her driving around alone on a Friday night (she always says ‘I’ – never ‘we’). I did not check to see if MRN is still on IG but IPPS’s indicates that something has changed because the pattern has changed. Of course I could be wrong since they always seemed like two ships passing in the night anyway, but I could also be right.

          My feeling? Maybe she finally dumped his sorry ass. She did it once before we met, so maybe she had enough. I sure hope so!! Not so I can have him, of course. I don’t want him (do I?). I just feel this strange sense of elation and that I can move on now and get serious about married work gigolo (kidding about that!).

          1. Kim e says:

            SMH HHHMMMM so what triggered you to check IG? And the true question that you yourself asked is “do you want him back”? Interesting that you checked her IG but not his.
            I do not dare check my N’s facebook as I know i will trigger so back to then go check is baby momma’s page and his kids pages and some friends pages. Cant do it.
            I am so hyped today. Well that is not true…let me rephrase. I was great on the train coming in this morning…..Watching Jack Whitehall Travels with my Father on Netflix…….Then I got to the station and my attitude hit the toilet. IT is like entering a black hole of memories. My anxiety hits the roof. I guess that is why it is called withdrawal and I understand why NC is broken so often to relief the pain.
            Wont lie……I think about breaking it at least 938407834 times a day and pray for a hoover. Not sure what at this point in time my reaction to a hoover would be but if I were a betting girl…I would fall for it even knowing what it is.
            Enough about me….LOL…I really want to know after all this time what made you check stuff out? How long has it been that you went NC? and besides the last FB and Linkedin friends requests when was the last hoover?

          2. SMH says:

            Kim e, I went NC a year and a half ago now. I think the last hoover was around March of this year but I don’t really know. I had two strange FB friend requests, both of which contained clues having to do with my work and travel schedule, with where MRN lives and with the profile names. But for all I know, he checks my Facebook every day. No idea!!

            I don’t know what triggered the IG but I haven’t thought about it since I did it – really! I did look at his a few months ago and that also did not disturb me. I saw where he was going at one point (he travels a lot) and that actually kind of disgusted me (tmi to post here).

            I think I did not look at his this time or to see if he still had it because I wasn’t interested – I just did not feel compelled. I learn way more from her IG than from his anyway. He rarely posts and when he does it is all planes and water. I pointed that out to him once and said it seemed like he was always trying to escape wherever he was. He never focuses on the thing in front of him (except for his job, which requires a ton of mental energy and planning). He would sometimes even post the same shot as IPPS. He did not care about IG but she does, so the facade is really with her rather than with him, right?

            Do I want him back? I don’t believe I do. I have seen now what others have to offer – I did not allow myself to really consider anyone else when I was with MRN because I was hiding behind him. Even though I have not found the right person yet – except for married work guy, who obviously is not 100% right! – I am hopeful. And if he isn’t there, well, I am perfectly happy on my own. Seriously. I told myself in January that I had to get my shit together and just be. I did it for eight months – did not date a soul (though I did spend a good chunk of time with married work guy). Then oyster man came along. I was able to both give him a chance and to break away when it didn’t feel right, so there you go. I do not need anyone and neither do you.

            Breaking NC is indeed like a hit of the drug but you have to keep going to that station and make it your own. You are too raw now to see that it gets better but I promise you it will if you get your compulsiveness under control and do not look at his Facebook or fall for a hoover.

          3. Kim e says:

            SMH……My heart just sank. I just realized that it has just been 2 weeks since I blocked him and this is the first full week that I have moved train stations. I am freaking out for nothing as he probably hasnt even figured out I am gone.
            Rum and coke for dinner again…LOL

          4. SMH says:

            Kim e, I hope you are feeling better today! He might notice that you are gone and deliberately ignore you or he might not notice, which might also disturb you. The good thing is that you will have no way of knowing. It makes no difference to you!

          5. Kim e says:

            Did you call me DISTURBED!?!?! Not very nice of you young lady…LOL
            OK…I will take your word for it not making a difference to me. I am still at the point where it does make a difference but I am going to try not to think about it. My head still hasnt wrapped around the fact that it is over. It is still expecting the hoovers like I got in the past. Once again HG was right.
            Thanks for the assistance once again.
            Have to figure out plans for the weekend so I dont really become disturbed. Getting hair highlighted Saturday morning but that is all planned. How about you?

          6. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e,

            Of course you are disturbed. We all are! Haha. I meant disturbed in the form of bother. It should not bother you or make a difference because if you are NC, you shouldn’t care what he does, thinks, believes, etc. So yes, try not to think about it. Accepting that it’s over is a process – not going to happen overnight but you are definitely making progress. I think I was lucky in a way because MRN and I rarely saw each other on the weekends so I never planned anything with him in mind. My life was always normal on the weekends.

            However, I will say that when ExLH and I were splitting up I had a really hard time on the weekends for awhile. One day I just said to myself well so what if you stay in on a Saturday night on your own. I made it through and it was a relief to know that I could do it – that it didn’t matter, that I wouldn’t cease to be. That was a big step. I then began planning weekends with friends (exLH had alienated all of my friends) and that continued when MRN came along two months later. I also started going to the gym, in large part to have something to break up the day if I needed it.

            I have had a really busy week and now weekend, with no time at all for the gym! Last night I went to a memorial. Lots of people I had not seen in ages, good to reconnect, get drunk, not eat enough dinner, etc. Today I am going with a friend to a museum, a film, dinner and shopping. Tomorrow I have a meet up for this activist group I am involved in. If I had acceded to oyster man’s requests I would be going to Maine on Monday. But I did not and I am not. Staying put. If you and I knew each other and were in the same place, we could make plans. But alas that will never happen…

            Where are you geographically speaking? If you commute by train, you must be in a major metro area.

          7. Kim e says:

            SMH. Disturbed but unique.
            I never heard or saw N on weekends when I was CIPSS but once I became SIPSS I heard from 7 days a week. I always found that to be strange. Like the rest of it wasn’t…LOL
            I went and got a hair make over yesterday. New me……..I love it. Went to dinner with friends last night and made plans for a Vegas trip next year. Felt good to get out and laugh…a lot….tears from laughing were flowing. Margarita, prime rib and pumpkin pie…….my weight watchers app exploded!!!!!! 6 more pounds to go to my desired weight. I am going to go down 5 more from there but took it in steps.
            Did you see my comment about my “carpets”? I was surprised but maintained.
            Never say never. I am 30 miles west of Chicago. You?
            Today, Sunday, Laundry, Marvel or Star Trek movie binge.

          8. SMH says:

            Kim e, I now see the carpet reference. Good for you! See? You can do it! And it sounds like you are taking care of yourself very well. All steps in the right direction.

            Funny what you say about the transition from CIPSS to SIPSS. Maybe he tested you more as CIPSS? There wasn’t much of a pattern to MRN’s weekend outreach – it just intensified as time went on (maybe I was also transitioned from CIPSS to SIPSS – not really sure).

            I do remember him contacting me one Mother’s Day and I was like, why aren’t you taking IPPS out for lunch or something? Other times I’d be full of plans while he seemed bored. Then he started a sport thing on Saturdays and would occasionally veer off course to see me. But my feeling now is that once he ‘normalized’ Saturdays (because he would say he was coming over and make me make time for him), he simply used Saturdays as another way to extract fuel. The first major argument we had was over a Saturday rendezvous – I told him at that point that he thought I was a satellite of his planet. That was the beginning of the end but it still took 11 more months to fully extricate myself.

            I am in NY at the moment but I lived in Chicago back in the day – my son was born there. The friends I reconnected with on Friday are all from that era, as was the person we were memorializing.

            Saw the marvelous biopic about Linda Ronstadt last night. I’d highly recommend it to all of my women friends and to all of my musician friends.

          9. Kim e says:

            Easter 2018 I was texting with my N.
            He had hooverd me back kn in February and was now trying to get me to “seal the deal”!
            He told me he had to be at his mom’s at 2. At 2:20 I said, “you are late”. He said “no, I was waiting for you but when I figured it wasnt going to happen I left and went to my mom’s. I am there now”.
            I walked out my patio door and looked down the block. His SUV was in his drive way!!!! I almost wet myself laughing.
            Saturday was great and Sunday was great until around 8 and then something triggered me and I was off to the races. I unblocked and said…..”I dont care about the others…I miss him”. I was even going to go back to the old parking spot. LT then kicked in and he was reblocked.
            I then worked my way upstairs to get ready for bed. I went back down and unblocked. I got in bed. I got out of bed and reblocked. I did this 2 more times.
            OMG…….tell me it gets easier. Not sure if this was because of the hoover I got Friday and the ET was a delayed reaction.
            I am at this point still NC and parking in the new lot.
            Other than that…….It was a great weekend…LOL
            I was born in Chicago but have been a suburban girl since I was 3.

          10. SMH says:

            Kim e, I can totally relate to the blocking and unblocking. Trust me on that. I cannot tell you how many times I would wake up at 5:30 a.m. because that is when he would normally start emailing me. Even when we were NC, I would wake up! Post escape, his email timings changed to more civilized hours. I remember when I started sleeping normally. That was a huge step!

            I am glad you had a great weekend even if Sunday night was anxious (which is understandable). The car thing with his mother – whatever pops out of their mouths is the truth for them. I once pointed out to MRN that he treated me and IPPS the same way – that he lied to both of us. You know what he said? ‘How am I lying to IPPS?’ You know why he said this? Because it was Sunday and we hadn’t fooled around since the previous Thursday. There ya go.

            We went NC right after that conversation – I really pressed him and insulted him, told him he was entitled, that he treated both of us like children, etc. That was when I began to accept that it was over and to come out of the fog. He disappeared and then hoovered me regularly for the next six months. Then he wanted me back…it’s crazy-making.

            I am NYC (Manhattan) born and I will probably die in NYC too! But I also grew up partly in the suburbs, with a few years overseas too.

          11. SMH says:

            Kim e, Four ‘private’ LinkedIn views in the past week alone, just in case you did not see where I posted it to ceyceyc. Increasing hoovers, IG looks different, suspicious friend request. But you know what? None of it affects me anymore. A year ago, a private LinkedIn visit would have been like a kiss goodnight. It would have made me feel calm – like MRN was still there and ‘looking out for me’ (ha). Now? Meh.

          12. Kim e says:

            Glad you are over it. Hope you can hang tight.
            As for me……………I fell…….no jumped off the wagon today. ET still very high. Phone hoovers at work. I was working in my garage on some plants last night. I forgot to pull my car in and there was a piece of junk mail on it this morning. Then the straw that broke the camels back was the call on my work phone…always the work phone….with the name of a military installation on it. It rang 3 times while I just stared at it my mind saying WTF!!!!! It hung up. I text with in the hour.
            I …let me count them…was hoovered 5 times…once in person… the matter of 6 days. Not to mention I saw him Tuesday night on the street as I was coming home from shopping. Not sure if he saw me.
            SHIT!!!!!!!! I feel good and like shit at the same time. I feel good talking to him but once it is over I am kinda blah. Like….well that was fun.
            Guess I am going to have to…not sure what.

          13. SMH says:

            Kim e, Get back on that wagon or at least keep the blahs going. You see how things have escalated since you had dinner with him? That’s why breaking NC is not such a good idea. It’s a slippery slope. You struggle to get away, he tap taps on your door, and the taps break you down so that you respond.

            I don’t expect any direct hoovers so I guess it is easy for me to say. But I should also admit that conversations with MRN have been floating around in my head all day. Made up conversations. Still, I know it will pass and I cannot even be sure that the indirect hoovers were him, though I cannot imagine who else would repeatedly view my LinkedIn in private mode – and no way is it four different people. It never happened even once before I met him. Since he knows that I know he does it, it feels like he is sending me smoke signals. The other ‘coincidence’ is that he knows where I am, since he knows my annual schedule. I am an ocean closer to him (I could drive it in a day) than I am the other half of the year.

          14. Kim e says:

            SMH Either my blonde is showing or I am not awake yet but I dont understand why you say escalated since I had dinner with him. What does that have to do with me breaking NC? At least keep the blahs going? Not tracking.
            I have private views on my LI also but never thought of the N……HHHMMMMM. Not sure he really is that interested in what I am doing to view my LI. We did mention LI at dinner because some how I am connected to one of the BIG partners where he works thru another person I know. This partner does not know me but he accepted my invite. That happened last year. N did not seem surprised that I was connected to this guy and just dropped the subject when he figured out who I was talking about.
            Busy weekend coming up….just have to do stuff…nothing exciting. I have to go get a dress for my sons wedding. I hate shopping
            but gotta do it. That will be my Sunday. IT is suppose to rain here all day Sunday…heavy at times….since we are getting the left overs form the last hurricane that flooded Houston last week.
            I find it interesting that your N has been rolling around in your head lately. Any idea why? Because you looked at IG? OR just one of those things.

          15. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            I think he is in my head due to the combo of looking at IG and seeing all the LI visits, which were completely unexpected. I glance at LI every week when they send me an email about this or that, and I was on it a lot a few weeks ago because an old friend started messaging me there. At no time were there private visits, and suddenly there are four. I don’t think he looks at my LI to find out what I am doing. That is what a normal person would do. He looks at it so that he knows I will know that he is looking at it, and he is suddenly doing it again because something happened with IPPS, which is my interpretation of the IG. But no worries. I am not going to break NC and I am too busy to dwell on it much.

            Having dinner with your N is breaking NC, no? And then all of the hoovers that you’ve mentioned seem to be getting closer and closer together. That is what I meant. Did I misunderstand?

            Congratulations on your son’s marriage! I hope you find a nice dress quickly. I also hate shopping!

          16. Kim e says:

            SMH. I was not NC when I did dinner with N. Dinner was Wednesday. He appeared in my back yard Friday and I went NC on Tuesday. First hoover was then 10 days later…then 2 days later…..then 3 days later.
            Guess it doesnt matter now. It is what it is….as my N likes to say. Maybe luck will be on my side and he will just forget about me all together. Stop laughing…it could happen. Fingers crossed for real that it is that easy.
            I am excited for my son. I am not crazy about her but then again I dont have to live with her. She is starting to grow on me but hard to get to know someone when they are in Seattle.
            Going to check out a new gym on Monday after work. I gotta get back into it before laziness hits. I have not been since 8/3 and my personal trainer got hired and I left that gym. I did join another place but I don’t like the vibe of it…as there really isn’t one. Very boring.
            Any word from oyster man?

          17. SMH says:

            Kim e, I did laugh! I thought you were NC before you went out to dinner, so that was my mistake. Sounds like the blahs to the hoovers, which is good. Glad to hear it. I don’t think much about my hoovers either (if that’s what they are), except when my mind drifts a bit.

            No word from oyster man. I do not think he is a narc and I might have humiliated him a bit by telling him that he didn’t have enough to do (bombarding me with 40 long emails over two weeks suggests he does not). No interest in dating either. I am too busy right now. I realize that I date when I am bored, which isn’t good. Better to meet someone in the course of life, doing what I do. The last person I met that way (married work guy) isn’t suitable but we are in touch because he asked me to be on another project with him (I said yes, though I had said no to his last request). I feel like I can just be myself with him – good and bad — because we are not trying to date each other (or maybe we are but he is married so there is that). He has my back and he is mentoring me in his own weird way, so I am getting a lot out of it work-wise too.

            I hope all goes well with your dil for both you and your son. Are you ready to be a grandma? I am not at all but I don’t anticipate that happening anytime soon!

          18. Kim e says:

            SMH….I stand corrected. I had been NC before the dinner. I went NC in May, unblocked end of June, car got invite to sandwich shop in July and electronic hoover and dinner happened in August.
            So I will split the difference with you. ……

          19. SMH says:

            lol okay Kim. You should write it all down so you remember!

          20. Kim e says:

            SMH……Dot laugh. It could happen…. (yes I typed that with a straight face)

            Grandkids I do not see on the agenda. They have a great life travel all the time….just got back from a prewedding honeymoon in Dublin for a week. She has her own business. He is IT support like his mom. It is up to them. As long as they are happy I dont care.
            I did not go shopping today. Not in the mood. And if not in the mood it will be worse than when I am in the mood. Maybe next weekend……..I have until 10/9….no rush……LOL

          21. SMH says:

            Kim e, It won’t happen. It’s all on you. Honestly, I cannot believe what a burden this is. How do they burrow in so deep and take over our brain cells? I know that HG has tried to explain it over and over, but there is still something very mysterious about it. I call it chemistry. In fact, I asked HG a Q about that because on the surface oyster man acted just like a narc – love bombed and then discarded – but it has not bothered me at all because the chemistry wasn’t there right away. With MRN it was like a bomb hit.

            I hope you find a dress quickly when you get around to it. You do sound just like me. I wouldn’t even know where to start. I have the same dresses that I’ve always had but luckily I have no reason to wear a dress.

          22. Kim e says:

            Cant I create my own illusion where it will happen? Where he just forgets I ever existed? that is what I want. I cant find hate for him. I know HG has told me over and over again that he is abusing me. That I am putting my head in the loin’s mouth.
            I had a thought come to me this morning….well more than 1 really but this one caught me by surprise. I remembered when I was consulting with HG over the phone. (This was the first time her told me about the lions mouth) When I got off the call, I noticed that N had texted while I was speaking to HG. At the time I thought how ironic is this and just stuck my head in the lions mouth and answered the test.
            Right now I am kinda numb to the whole thing. I want to correspond with him, see him. BUT if I never heard from him again I would be ok with that. Now before you get all excited (I will think of you when I have my salad for lunch…LOL) and yes HG I know this is my ET bellowing…..but NC and the word wounding kills me. I know what it means in the context it is said here, but my mind just goes to you are hurting him. As I said before, as much as I read and read and feel others pain and agony and joy of being off the wheel, I just cant wrap my head around that any of it is referring to me. I can relate to the experiences obviously as I comment on them.
            I have said before that I guess there will just come a time where I say enough. Where he will show me his “other” side and I back away.
            But in the mean time, I like my illusion of “IT COULD HAPPEN” (No I dont believe it….)

            I hadn’t really worn dresses either except to things where I thought I had to UNTIL the N. First time I wore a little black skirt, I got the comment of “Skirt is kinda short”. I replied “you dont like it”? N replied “I didnt say that”. I smiled to myself thinking OH YEA…he liked it.
            N awoke a lot of things in me that had been dead….hidden away…for years. I do thank him for that.
            Sorry to go on……..just good to have someone to talk to that can relate. 🙂

          23. SMH says:

            Kim e, Hope your salad was crisp!

            I don’t hate MRN either, which is why it is a good thing that we live in different countries and he has not tried to directly hoover me. I also felt terrible wounding him, even though it was funny and I still laugh about it (I teased him and it was like I had shot him). I apologized but I also told him that his reaction was completely out of proportion to the offense – silent treatment. Since I was lying on the sofa with tendonitis and we were supposed to be friends, I got furious. That is when I finally exploded. It took two years of his abuse for me to lose it completely but there is no going back now. Burn those bridges.

            I still have my illusions (like his LI visits are cries of help for me to rescue him) but a little voice in my head wonders if he even remembers who I am at this point. I am sure he must have another fuel source – he certainly did after i escaped. i do not know how far it got but he didn’t have any trouble replacing me after awhile, which i admittedly told him to do. So when reality comes rushing in, I come to my senses.

            You have to remember that they do not ‘do’ relationships in the same way that we do. This means not only that you cannot connect with him on a human level because it is impossible for him. It also means that whatever you have done is like water off a duck’s back. They are not suffering because we are not special to them – we are just another fuel source.

            MRN also awoke a lot of things in me – he brought out a side of me that I did not even know I had – and I thank him for that too because it felt like a spiritual thing – like yin/yang. I told him long ago that no matter what happened, i would always remember him as my port in the storm, and he was for awhile. I told him what I loved about him and he told me what he loved about me. He made me a much more open person in all ways. I have held onto that – it is just not usable with him. It is now for someone who deserves it. I have not yet found that person but MRN doesn’t deserve it either, and neither does your N. He might not forget you but you must forget him!

          24. Kim e says:

            If all on me, this is what I told CIF this morning
            I wnt to bed at 730 last night…mentally exhausted. I was up at 1130 and at 12 went back to bed. My brain would not shut off thinking of N. And then I thought “Why worry about who he is with. It isn’t you so leave it alone. Get off the merry go round”.
            This morning he was blocked again. I have to admit if he would have kept up the banter after I texted him last week, I would have not done it…but Shit! I want someone that wants me and only me. That when I get a Good Morning text they mean it and cant wait to see me and hold my hand and soak up my tears……..crying now….great……good thing no one else at work yet! 🙁
            .Thanks for standing by me,,,,it means a lot to this heart broken empath.

            This is for you too!!!! XXOO

          25. SMH says:

            Aww Kim e, Thanks and sorry. I hope you are feeling better now and had a good day at work- I will respond to your other post separately.

            Here I want to say that I just had someone who wanted me and only me (oyster man) and it was suffocating. It is not enough or it is not what you want. You want someone who respects you, who is honest and who is stable enough so that his own issues are not being dumped all over you. I’ve kind of had it with men who project their issues, whether to my supposed benefit or not. My exLH wanted me to be his mother – I felt like he vomited his problems all over me. MRN did the same but in a much more insidious way, and oyster man did the same, though in a seemingly more ‘positive’ way. None of it was right. I mean we all carry baggage but mature people do not take their issues out on someone else.

          26. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I think what Kim meant was she does not want to just be a “side benefit” — does not want to be one of many women who mean nothing substantial — but to have a real, committed, sincere & honest, healthy relationship. I don’t believe she was meaning that the person should have no life besides her. Of course people need to have their own solid sense of self, goals, interests, friends & a balanced life, outside of a chosen, intimate relationship. Totally agree on that point.

          27. Kim e says:

            CIF and SMH
            I think what Kim meant was she does not want to just be a “side benefit”.

            This is true. You are both correct.
            And CIF, going back to your post regarding triggers, the word Chosen is one for me. As I told SMH the other day, that was the 1st chapter he self titled in the book we were going to write together.

            Now where is that box of tissue……… 🙁

          28. Kim e says:

            Kinda numb today. Not happy but not sad. I am sure the struggle will get intense in the coming days, weeks, months. But I have got to do this.
            When I quit smoking people used to ask me, do you notice a difference when you stopped? I would tell them NO. I noticed a difference when I started again”. Same with N. Since texting last week, that always weepy feeling came back. Oh sure…the high was there when we text but this morning I realized that while we were texting, I asked all the questions just to keep the “high” going. (he did ask how I was….cause he loves me……LOL). And of course he had to have the last word in the text.
            Right now I want nothing to do with anybody as far as a “relationship”.
            I did go to the new gym last night and it almost killed me!!!!! I have done nothing as far as working out since 8/3. This guy had me doing dead lifts of 75lbs. I got home, layed on the couch, took my shoes off while laying down cause I did not have the strength to take them off sitting up…(pitiful) and passed out for 1.5 hours. I also have decided I am staying on Weight Watchers as the food they want me to eat is not enough to keep me going. I am not looking to lose weight as I figure that will happen once I get back on the workout routine. Then I will drop WW all together.
            So I guess it is headed to Kim time…for me…..remembering who I used to be…planning on my next move on who I want to be.

          29. NarcAngel says:

            Kim e

            Who did you used to be? What did she want or plan to do before you encountered the narcissist?

          30. Kim e says:

            I used to not take shit from anyone. It was this is me like it or not. Most of my long time friends say it took them some time to realize I say it like it is and they appreciated it in t he long run. They also say I put up a very brave hard front but know I am mush on the inside.
            I was so turned off by the thought of a “relationship” because I had been burned bad in the last one, (ironic isnt it) that males that approached me, even if I knew them from work, if they extended their hand or went to hug me I literally backed away.
            Not sure that I had a plan for the future before I encountered the N. Maybe I was too involved in running from the past.
            The new me will still speak her mind but will be in it for ME first. I have been on my own since I was 15. Need to learn that part of me again and just improve on it. and SMILING>>>>>>and joking>>>>>>and laughing>>>>and not looking over my back.
            Thanks for asking.

          31. SMH says:

            Kim e, I think you just want to be yourself and have a normal relationship, with its normal ups and downs but without the extremes. You are right that in order to get that you first have to center yourself and get back to who you really are. I’ve never shied away from a relationship until now, but that’s not because of MRN. That’s because I figured myself out (a lot of it thanks to MRN). You sound a lot like me. I haven’t been alone since I was 15 but I did start to get into a lot of serious trouble at 16, almost died and was sent away to another country halfway around the world for a year at 17. So pretty much on my own since then. I think that sort of stuff damages us because we do not feel supported when we most need it and so we kind of decide that no one is going to save us but ourselves. Lucky people who never have to have that realization. But difficulties are also what make us interesting and who we are. My friends are the people who see the mush but I can also be really, really so hard that no one can get through to me. I discarded one of my best friend three years ago and never thought about it again (we had an argument and she said something I could not forgive). So that was that. I have a lot of friends anyway, make friends easily, and I wouldn’t want to be anyone else. Would you? I hope not because I think the worse thing that can befall someone is to wish they were someone else.

            I can’t believe you did 75 lb dead lifts! Bravo!

          32. Kim e says:

            2nd weight lifting class tonight. If I can lift my arms tomorrow I will let you know how it went.

          33. HG Tudor says:

            Well done for forming a distraction and a healthy one at that.

          34. Kim e says:

            Well I feel good today so I am checking in to say I am taking break from the site. It consumes my days and keeps N alive more in my mind trying to figure out how to get out of this and when will he hoover, how will he hoover……..yada yada.
            I’ll be back. Could be tomorrow. Could be a month. Keep happy thoughts for me as I know I am no where near where I need or want to be on this journey from hell.
            Love kisses and hugs.
            PS….LOL…just have to say it…behave yourself!!!!!!

          35. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e, It has taken me awhile to catch up. I just responded to your message from a few days ago. I totally understand why you are taking a break and, like HG, I think weight lifting is great – healthy and an excellent distraction! Glad your arms didn’t fall off! I too was a gym fanatic both during and after my MRN phase. It kept me a lot more even keeled than I would have been. I don’t go as much as I should now, but when I do it still calms me.

            As for narcsite, well, you come back when you need to or when you feel like you can handle it. It will still be here, and so will a lot of us. I am unplugging from most things next week, including work, but don’t feel that I come here too much or that it triggers me. I also find a lot of it entertaining and enlightening, so I will be around if you come back. I hope being away both on your trip and from here helps.

            Love hugs and kisses back. I so wish we could meet!

            And P.S. I will behave. There is not one man on my radar except for married work guy, and he is in another country. I have no interest in getting involved with anyone right now. Just glad to know I still have ‘it.’

          36. Kim e says:

            My inner N must be on high alert. I had a feeling that you were going to reply so I reset to get notifications and here you are !!!!!! Nice to see you.

            I have to tell you that I am missing the N very much today and there are 2 possible reasons why. 1. It is just one of those things that happens when you are new to NC. 2. This is a long one so get some popcorn and a drink. I will wait. ………OK? READY? here goes
            First I have to say that I do not take my phone upstairs with me at bedtime. It remains downstairs. Dont think I would hear it ring or ping from down there as I sleep with 2 fans on. Some time before NC, I was in ignore mode but not NC, I heard the N’s text ping in the middle of the night. My eyes shot open (literally) and I held my breath waiting to see if I heard the 2nd reminder ping or if I had dreamnt it. I never heard the reminder ping but of course did not go back to sleep either. Last night, I heard the ping again while I was asleep. It sounded like it was in the distance. I semi woke up…thought ot myself “Good Morning W” and went back to sleep. So I am taking it that
            1. I was missing him already and this was my subconsiuos as I slept
            2. He is in my brain saying…..”come out come out where ever you are…”
            3. I am getting better at this NC thing as it really did not trigger me to become fully awake or make me want to unblock.
            Believe me. My LT has been having to wrk overtime this week on my ET. Maybe cause I am forced to park in the old place???!!!!
            Guess I will stay on the site just to communicate with you. I can just delete the stuff I dont want to read.
            Pumped iron 2 nights so far this week. I have delayed muscle pain so I figure on Friday it will catch up to me. But I feel good after I do it. The N was the reason I started working out. One thing to thank him for.
            Dress shopping this weekend… about stress. I hate it…but gotta do it.
            Meeting would be excellent…….but alas……..
            Nothing else going on this weekend. How about you? I know work has you stressed. What do you do to forget about it?
            (Hi HG)

          37. SMH says:

            Kim e, Glad you checked back in!

            This will be a quick reply because I have to go out but the pings in the middle of the night, the semi-consciousness, the feeling that he is there (good or bad) – I experienced all of that too, so couldn’t NOT answer you right now.

            MRN had me so conditioned that I would wake up literally 30 seconds before his email would arrive around 5:30-6:00 a.m. because that is when he would get up for work. You know when your kid is breastfeeding and your milk comes in right before they cry? It was like that. Then when he didn’t email, I’d still wake up. This started happening very early on and is one reason I dumped him after a month. I could tell that he was ensnaring me in some awful way, though I did not have the knowledge or vocab that I have now. It is also one reason I went back to him – I wanted those early a.m. emails because I found them calming.

            Other times I would have out of body experiences. I once became him looking at me looking at him. I told him about it, analyzed it, and said he was my ghost who inhabited me. It really was like I was experiencing another dimension of being.

            Once I let myself just experience it without freaking out, I kind of enjoyed it/found it fascinating. As things died down last summer, I would still ‘feel’ him occasionally and would still find it calming, especially had he left evidence of an online hoover. I had all sorts of dreams. Eventually it faded. I think the last time I ‘felt’ him must have been over a year ago. I did not feel him when I saw the four LinkedIn visits the other day.

            I do not know what it is. You are missing him, he is in your brain, but you are also getting better at the NC thing. HG would say it is everpresence but I don’t find that answer very satisfying because I want to know what it is biologically. But I don’t think I will ever find out (I looked up all sorts of stuff about the out of body experience) except that our anxiety levels are so high that certain hormones are elevated and I am sure those play a role. Another reason NC is so important is to get those hormones under control. Cortisol in particular is not good if the level stays elevated for a long time. So once those things you are experiencing start to fade, you will know that your hormone levels are normalizing. In the meantime, don’t let it scare you or throw you off your path. Just go with it and keep lifting those weights!

            I will answer the rest tomorrow. I have to go out, have an early morning work thing tomorrow and then I am pretty freed up!!! Yippee!

            Hang strong! xo

            P.S. HG, look for George Conway’s piece on Trump’s sociopathy and narcissism in The Atlantic. I think you’ll find it interesting, though I am sure you will also find things wrong with it!

          38. Kim e says:

            Hi SMH,
            Yea. My N would start texting at 4:30-5:00 in the morning after we have texted until 12 – 1 the night before. I always wondered how he managed to look so nice. But then again I was getting dressed between texts too. Fastest showers on record. Lots of baths cuz I could type while sitting in tub.
            I woke up in around 2 and felt a ting of panic. What will I do once the N tires of me and no longer hoovers? What if he is done with me now? My LT tried to tell my ET to shut the hell up and go back to sleep but ET won this time. I remained awake….but still NC.
            Cortisol…that answers my question!! I have been cravinbg sugar like crazy…if there is candy, I am eating it. Guess stress is goes unnoticed after so long being under it
            (GREAT A coworker just came around and said Cinnabuns in the kitchen….I am screwed again today!!!!)
            Back to reality…hahahaha. I agree about feeling the connection lessen. Mayb that is the reason for my panic in the middle of the night. MY ET is freaking out that my LT might actually win this battle. I have to be sure to get my LT in order as you and I both know after a certain amount fo time passes, I will get cocky. OR N will decide my ET has raised up again and I am prime for a hoover.
            So would now be a good time to tell you that I have started talking to a guy on IG? Is he a N? OH ABSOLUTELY!!! But …since I know what the story is, I will get bored and tire of the BS and block him. Just passing time.

          39. SMH says:

            Kim e, That’s funny because I basically just wrote you that I am also passing time playing tiny little mind games with sexual harassment guy. I am sure he doesn’t deserve it but there is no one else around to fuck with :). Maybe I should go back on the online dating site. We’ll see.

            Funny you should mention the battle between your ET and your LT the way you did because that makes perfect sense to me. We somehow revel in our ET – it is comforting to us – and LT means we cannot have it anymore. So our ET freaks out, as you put it. I hear ya!

            Have that Cinnabun (you probably already have) and then get thee to the gym!

            Anyway, I am really streaming my consciousness tonight but I feel so relaxed. Must go to sleep though as I have to get up at a reasonable hour tomorrow.

            By the way, I am very proud of you for working through all of this and sticking to NC. I know you can do it and even if you fall off the wagon, you’ll get back on it again. If there is a next time it won’t be nearly as intense. Remember way back when I said that cold turkey doesn’t always work or that there might be situations where a more gradual NC works? I knew HG would disagree with me but don’t let me down. Let me win this one against HG! 🙂

          40. Kim e says:

            I knew I had to work this thru my way also. Listening to HG and reading I am sure has helped but each time I go NC, i get more like….nah, not doing it again. I get that there is still a long road to go and that ET could win again, but such is life. Off the horse and back on. Right now the prospect of him hoovering does not get me as “excited” as it used to. Doesn’t mean I wont get wet if I see him and he starts in…..LOL.
            I guess the one thing I have going for me is he is a MRN and really doesn’t have the balls to just walk up to me.
            I did have a Cinnabon. I have been having sugar cravings. So I purged the house this morning of all cookies and breads. I gained 3 pounds last week and I know it is from all the shit I have been eating. So upset with myself.
            Gotta go get dressed…talk later

          41. SMH says:

            Kim e, I like your attitude. I also do not know what would happen if MRN suddenly popped up but I am lucky that the chances are very slim since we live in different countries now. In addition, of course, just like yours he is a passive mid-ranger, so the chances of him really making an effort are next to none. The saving grace of being entangled with a mid-ranger.

            I’ve cut most gluten out of my diet completely, so I am not tempted by cookies or bread. Today I did not have dinner at all – didn’t have time – and only had a salad for lunch. Now I am too tired to eat but I fear I will wake up ravenous in the middle of the night, though kratom (which I am drinking) also suppresses my appetite.

            I can’t believe you read all that I wrote last night (or was it the night before?). I was so tired and when i get tired I am like a toddler, I get more and more hyper until I crash completely. I was in hyper mode when I was writing, so thank you for responding to all of it!

          42. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e,

            Another longggg day. Up at 5:30 a.m. (nothing to do with narc – I had an early remote meeting and then several hours of work after that). I then had a nap in the afternoon but had a bad dream – again, nothing to do with narc – I dreamt someone close to me was about to commit suicide – I got to the door, it was locked and then I woke up. Busied myself with this and that, and went out to dinner with some friends (someone else paid for it!).

            Tomorrow I have to leave the city for part of the day, and then I have a thing tomorrow night back in the city, so it will be a lot of running around. To unwind I come on here (I actually can unwind on here or only come on here when I am relaxed – it’s quiet, at least), drink kratom tea, and sometimes watch a series or a flick, read the news (because I am a news junkie) or just go to sleep.

            I was talking to the two friends I went to dinner with about why men are attracted to me, think I am nice, cute, a pushover, etc. But when they find out I am smart, they deflate. MRN never deflated – he was not intimidated at all. I think that’s why I remained so attached to him. His ego was strong enough to like both my brains and my body plus he made a lot of money so I did not think he would compete with me. Little did I know… Oyster Man pops into my head occasionally and I think, I really should get in touch with him, especially because in two weeks I will be in the town where he has a house and I don’t want to surprise run into him (it’s a small town). But then I think nah. Going out on dates or having any romantic involvement with anyone doesn’t interest me, probably because I haven’t met anyone who interests me…

            Anyway, stream of consciousness here. How was your day? Did you get your dress? The clock is ticking 🙂

          43. Kim e says:

            Kratom tea? Do ell more. I am a tea junkie. Earl Grey is my favorite and is my caffeine fix in the morning as coffee and I stopped getting along years ago.
            I unwind with the TV on for back ground noise, looking at phone stuff and on the site. Then I usually look around and end up doing something around the house. Last night I was watching YouTube videos and just paused it and cleaned the bathroom…LOL Scattered, right?
            Do you believe in tarot cards or astrology?
            Dress shopping is today.Time to go big or go home. I am getting excited about the wedding but kinda stressed about the travel. I fly into Seattle on Thursday and meet my younger son at the airport. Then get the rental car. Not sure what the Thursday night plan is. Friday morning we get food, booze and flowers in Seattle and then drive 2 hours to the wedding location and start setting up. The guests start arriving at 3. A cocktail reception from 4 – 6 then food til 8 then movies. Saturday morning a 2 mile hike up Mt Reiner if you like then back for breakfast. Wedding at 3 followed by cocktails at 4 and reception at 6. Sunday, clean up and drive back to seattle. Day of ???? no idea. Then Monday I have to get an uber to airport for a 6:00am flight. I am off work Tuesday as I will be exhausted. LOL…I am exhausted just writing it all out.
            Tonight after a day of shopping going to see the Rocky movie…I love cheesey movies like that. And all the disaster movies that are total crap……I love them. Hate romance movies. Love shoot em up movies.
            Does meeting up with OysterMan have to be a date? Not just 2 people that know each other having a nice conversation and food?
            Day is good so far. It is 9:10 AM here. I am chatting with the Hang Outs narc that I acquired, the doctor. He is boring as hell and keeps asking the same questions over and over. I determine I will say Bye-Bye to him by the end of the weekend……….he just asked if I am right or left handed…….barf….

          44. HG Tudor says:

            Why are you chatting with a Hang Outs Narc?

          45. Kim e says:

            HG, I know. I know. Are IG narc’s better to chat with?

          46. HG Tudor says:

            Are you serious?

            No contact means no contact, not-chat-to-narcissists-in-Google-Hangout-or-on-Instagram-contact.

            No Contact.

            This is like asking me,
            “HG, you said do not take take the cyanide capsules, so is it okay to take just one?”

          47. Kim e says:

            HG. I am kidding. Just being a smart ass. I have blocked and deleted all IG and Hangout narc chats. My head is out of the lions mouth.

          48. SMH says:

            Kim e, I had to laugh at HG’s question about why you are chatting with Hang Outs narc after I just posted a response to you about how entertaining it can be. HG, some of these guys are so dumb and their stories are so ridiculous that one kind of becomes curious about how far they will go. It’s just mindless stuff really.

            Kratom is not tea, tea. It is like yerba mate, but stronger, I think. It’s a tree leaf that has various sorts of qualities depending on which strain you use and how much. It is possible to get quite high/relaxed on it but not to od from it (though I suppose one can take too much of anything). I found the strain I like and the effect I like, akin to having a drink at the end of the day (though sometimes I have it in the morning too – separate from my coffee). It’s not like being drunk, however. A lot of people use it to wean themselves from opiates. I order mine from a place in CA because they are quick and their strains are consistent.

            Your wedding event does sound rather exhausting. You have two sons? Both in Seattle? I thought you only had the one. But it should be fun and who knows, maybe you will meet someone – an appropriate widower :).

            Speaking of which, yes, exactly about Oyster Man. That is what I would be after – a friendly chat over coffee. But it is hard to separate him from the dating experience with him, and I think that’s why I push the thought out of my head. I must admit, though, that I have been doing a lot that I think he would enjoy/be into, so part of me feels like he would have been a good partner, if only he wasn’t so ott…maybe worth another shot or at least reaching out to see where his head is at. But yes, I would do it as friends.

            I have had someone read my tarot cards but I think I believe in astrology more. MRN is a fixed air sign and I am a fixed earth sign. I once told him that he was IN the world but I was OF the world. I think I am right. On all of the astrology sites, it is about the worst combination there is. But there is also the indication that it is their very differences that make their relationship electric and volatile. It all fits.

            Do you believe this stuff? Did you get a dress? And are you right or left handed? hahaha

          49. HG Tudor says:

            “Kim e, I had to laugh at HG’s question about why you are chatting with Hang Outs narc after I just posted a response to you about how entertaining it can be. HG, some of these guys are so dumb and their stories are so ridiculous that one kind of becomes curious about how far they will go. It’s just mindless stuff really.”

            SMH, your ET makes you believe it is mindless and no harm is coming from such interactions, but at the minimum ET is being increased through such interactions. It contravenes the First Golden Rule of Freedom. This has two potential issues
            1. Ensnarement in some form by the apparent moron that is being engaged with, and
            2. Cross-pollution by the ET in respect of another existing narcissist, one which has caused more extensive problems.

            I expand upon this problem, the risk and what occurs through consultation.

          50. SMH says:

            Hadn’t thought of cross-pollution, HG, but want to be sure I understand what you mean – what we call ‘triggering’? Last year. I was involved with someone who is a narc, though not a moron and not the same kind as MRN, and he triggered my ET, which I recognized. It did not make me break NC with MRN but I did dump the guy.

          51. HG Tudor says:

            I am not referring to triggering SMH, although you are correct to make mention of that as a possible consequence. Cross-Pollution is a dangerous effect of engaging with other narcissists who may be viewed as “safe” compared to the “main” narcissist. It is a detailed consideration which I expand on in consultation.

          52. Kim e says:

            SMH and HG
            “I am not referring to triggering SMH, although you are correct to make mention of that as a possible consequence. Cross-Pollution is a dangerous effect of engaging with other narcissists who may be viewed as “safe” compared to the “main” narcissist. It is a detailed consideration which I expand on in consultation.”

            Yes HG. I am not sure it was “triggered” as we refer to it, but the thing that got me to block these guys from IG and Hangouts is after talking to the one on Hangouts Friday and Saturday, I found myself awake inthe middle of the night thinking about him. That “triggered” me to say….OH NO…thiis is not good. I was just getting to the point where my N was there still but was going further into the back ground.
            Not sure what cross-pollution is but I would imagine it is the interweaving of both the N’s manipulations at the same time on my ET. Nope….learned my lesson on this one, No more chatting with anyone that I do not know on any platform. Back to my NC.

          53. HG Tudor says:

            Jolly good.

          54. Kim e says:

            HG, How close was I in my definition of Cross-Population?

            cross-pollution is but I would imagine it is the interweaving of both the N’s manipulations at the same time on my ET.

          55. HG Tudor says:

            I will explain in consultation to save my fingers.

          56. Kim e says:

            HG. Thanks but I will keep my money and you can save your fingers this time around around. Not that important to me as I really do not ever plan on being in that position again.

          57. SMH says:

            Kim e, Glad you blocked Hangouts (and thanks for that clarification, HG). I think everyone triggers me, whether I know them irl or not, especially when I get to a certain point in a relationship – the walls ALWAYS go up.

            Coincidentally, I had a very weird dream about Oyster Man last night – must be because we were chatting about my contacting him. In my dream, he had hidden a lot from me. He lived in a big old house, which I visited, only to find all sorts of people living there, including other men and women. The main person in the dream did not look like OM at all, but I knew it was him. Irl he was very open and honest (I think) so I don’t know where that dream came from except it was a cross-pollution type thing with some MRN overlap. I don’t think it means that OM is a narc. It’s just my addled brain. I should probably contact him just to rid myself of the subconscious muck. But then if he does not answer me, it might get worse and feel like an ST, so maybe I shouldn’t…

          58. Kim e says:

            SMH…OH BROTHER!!!!! LOL. Our minds are truly warped. I slept like a rock last night and today my anxiety is thru the roof. I hate this shit. Cant wait until I get back from the wedding and the parking lot maintenance is over and I can go back to my new I hate driving to this parking lot parking lot. Time…I know it takes time. SHIT…I am not getting any younger.
            Text O man and just feel it out. If he doesnt answer….oh well. You sound like me when I would hear from N and I would break down and text him and think to myself, “now get ready for not getting a reply”. But he never did not reply. Might have been cookie BS buit he always replied. EXCEPT for when I spewed about me knowing something had changed, I got a corrective devaluation which I did not apologize for (didnt know what it was) was devalued and deleted in 4 days. THEN…I did not get a reply….LOL Ahhhhh the good old days.
            I think the relationship was easier when I was blind to what he was. Afterwards all I did was not be myself for fer of wounding or pissing him off and being ignored or whatever. I was forced to then play the game………..which was not a game to him.
            Done talking about him..tody anyways
            Got my hair cut last night and nails done tonight. All packed. One more work day and then I am gone.
            Thought you had things going on this week and that I would not hear from you. If we dont catch up again this week, I will check in next week when I return.
            I have done drugs, booze and men. Time for a new hobby……….hhhhhmmmmmmm

          59. SMH says:

            lol Kim e – maybe politics? Oh wait, we’re doing that here on another thread – the old Trumpster is always good for a head spin.

            I never had any of these problems before. Wish I could get back to my old naive self for sure.

            I have been v busy this week and took today off (yes it’s only Tuesday but yesterday was a killer and tomorrow and Thursday will be too). I am going away next week but then I’ll be in OM’s town…yeah, I will contact him but later in the week after all the hoopla has died down. MRN always replied too – sometimes curt but never ignored for more than a day or two, and only rarely, except for post-escape after I teased him, and then I went berserk. I do know where OM lives so maybe I will end up on his stoop screaming at him 🙂 (kidding).

            Anyway, you do have something to look forward too – I think it’s exciting that your son is getting married and weddings are always fun! Plus, you get to travel and you got a new dress. Did you describe it to me anywhere? I have to check your other responses – just getting to them now.

          60. Kim e says:

            SMH……Trump???S hit I would rather sit in a room of MRN’s gaslighting me….OH WAIT!!! Same thing as listineing to Trump. He comes on the TV or radio and the volume is turned off.
            I will describe the dress as a good geyser empath would do. It is knee lenth black with a sashof grey around the waste and bottom. The bottom is not even but asymentrical. The attire was to be little black dress or cocktail dress. As the wedding itself is outside with temps to be in the 50″s, I will be wearing black tights. I tried on 15 dresees and loved one of them. I wasnt going to try this one on as it looked frumpy on the hanger but my friend said,,,,shit whats one more…LOL. This one fit like a glove. Nails are red!!!!
            Have a good time with OM…. TTYL

          61. SMH says:

            Kim e, That’s my feeling too – I cannot stand looking at our listening to that little puckered snide mouth of his. It looks like an asshole on an asshole.

            The dress sounds great – nice of them to request black, as the biggest problem with weddings is what to wear, especially during the day. I already said safe travels and have fun but will double that. Look forward to hearing what you remember when you get back. xo

          62. SMH says:

            Dear diary (aka Kim e), I know you are hidden in a drawer somewhere but I just wanted to report that today I had 3 private LinkedIn visits (or is it the same 4, but then where is the 4th?) along with yet another fake FB friend request. I now have two clean cut handsome men waiting for me. Funny how they are all so generic, just like MRN. Yours, Alone (except for narcsite) in the Narc Wilderness

            P.S. I feel like MRN is reaching out to keep me from contacting OM. Do you think he can read my mind?

          63. Kim e says:

            SMH, Going to combine all the last couple of posts here into one.
            I am back from the wedding. It was wonderful. Lots of laughs. Lots of food. Really cold in morning and after sun went down…..20’s and 30’s. And as all activities were based around the outdoors, the layers of clothes went on. But after a drink or 6 and a joint or 4….who cared. I am going to look up how legalized pot has effected the liquor industries in those communities. I know there was alot of booze consumed at the wedding but there was a lot left over also.
            I did receive a strange call on Friday but as I was not here to see it come in, I did not know about it until today. I do not put on my out of office on my phone just my emails so if it was him, he thinks I saw it. SURPRISE!!! No message either.
            As long as I was busy while gone, N was not really on my mind. Once home, I was wiped out and slept most of yesterday. I did go to the icky parking lot this morning and will continue to do so. Just wish the dead feeling inside me would go away. Kinda want to cry today. Guess it is going to take time as my NC has not been that long…..even tho sometimes it feels like a lifetime.
            I debated about even coming here at all when I got back. I read a lttle and thought I really do not want to be reminded right now. I need it to be a different life in a different world.
            Still in the paranoid stage of looking for hoovers and then thinking oh no he is done with me…forget about it. And then back to being paranoid again. I just really dont even want to talk to anyone. Co-workers of course ask about the wedding, I say as little as possible. I have thought about unblocking but have not.
            So….enough of my self pity party, did you contact OM? AND?????? What happened?????
            Interesting about LI. & FB.
            I always said my N knew where I was going to be as he always just appeared. HG says they are not mind readers but I am not sure I beleive that. Intuition is one thing but I find it strange of all the stories here on NS that people say, I had just started to date someone and my N reappered….like he knew.
            What else have I missed? I did meet Noel on Thursday night at the dinner and he was yummy. Kept me occpied for the night and on and off the rest of the trip. A loser in his own right….not a N….just an adorable loser that is good friends with my son. Why all of a sudden am I attracting men 25 years younger than me>>>>>>>>scarey!

          64. SMH says:

            Kim e, Happy to see you back. I have not actually been on here much because I am traveling too and have a poor internet connection where I am (and no cell phone service to speak of, no mobile data either, so pretty much cut off).

            It sounds like you had a wonderful time at the wedding, complete with the young and lusty Noel. Often coming home again after such a heady experience is a let down anyway, narc or no narc. So give yourself some time to get used to your ‘real’ life again. Don’t talk to anyone if you don’t feel like it. It is fine to be in your own head for awhile, as long as you come out of it. Just think about the fun you had rather than narc and maybe start planning another getaway or just going out after work or whatever. Things will normalize and be okay. You were doing really well before you left, which is again why I think it’s about getting back into your normal routine after such a great trip, rather than about narc per se. I think it’s good that there might have been a call from him that you did not see and of course did not respond to. It will happen again, of course, but soon it will not affect you at all. I haven’t checked LinkedIn lately but I do have another strange friend request on FB, or maybe that was the last one. I don’t even think about it much anymore.

            Seeing OM tomorrow night. I almost feel like I should not have contacted him because as soon as I did, the same stuff started up again. He is very compulsive – no filters – and doesn’t ‘hear’ me. I know he sounds like a narc, but he isn’t. Just a huge romantic whereas I am not. I realized that this is one reason I got so attached to MRN – his lack of emotions was very unthreatening to me. It made me feel calm whereas with OM, I just want to push him away. Attachment issues – I am an avoidant and OM will suffocate me. I will then hurt him. That is what I am going to tell him. He cannot moderate and I cannot relax around him due to his inability to emotionally regulate himself. We are not made for each other!! My problem with MRN was not his lack of emotions, really. That part was very calming and he was interested enough in my life and in me. It was more his inconsistency (intermittent reinforcement) that caused my anxiety. OM is consistent but consistently over the top. That won’t work for me either. So that was a bit of a breakthrough – why I glommed on to MRN and OM makes my walls go up.

            Anyway, I am very tired and going to sleep now. I hope your afternoon and evening were better than your morning. It does take time but you are doing things right and really well. Everything you are experiencing is normal for a narc entanglement. I know you are ambivalent about coming here to narcsite, but maybe that is what has helped you to stay NC for how many weeks now? At least six, right? That’s very good! Hugs.

          65. Kim e says:


            Not sure what is going on but I am having a tearful purge day. Not an issue when sitting on my couch but not comfortable at work. I have been holding in my feelings for so long now just so people stay away from me. Fear of attracting other N’s? Getting back into a routine is awful. I feel so under water. Not just at work, or on train, or at home. Everywhere.
            I amhaving a really hard time with the site also. I sign up for replies so we can keep in touch but the other posts make me very sad. Maybe it is just part of the ET purge that I was not expecting.
            Give OM a break. Dont crush him because you look at things the opposite way. Are you over compensating for MRN? Or have you alsways been like that. Maybe you should not see him again. I knew that you werent thrilled with him but had no idea he effected you so negatively. Just eat, talk and relax. Then say thanks have a nice life!!!!! No flogging needed. You dont have to get involved with him. Just 2 people getting together. But I do have to ask….was he surprised to hear from you?
            It has been 8 weeks…but who is counting.

          66. SMH says:

            Kim e, an ET purge is fine as long as you do not sink into a depression. Give yourself a few days deadline and if it doesn’t pass, maybe it is time for a therapist? You are really high and then really low so keep an eye on yourself. I went to a therapist on and off before, during and after my time with MRN. Haven’t been in over a year but it was really helpful, even though she didn’t diagnose the problem properly.

            You might attract other Ns but you will be able to recognize them. Last fall I dated another N. I even accused him of triangulating me with his daughter, future faking, and all the rest. He was a different kind of N than MRN and I didn’t stick around long enough to find out which kind, but it did happen. You just have to be prepared for it and take everything very slowly for awhile. Also, self-isolation is pretty normal after an N relationship. I did the same for months. That will change when you are ready. You are just emotionally exhausted.

            How do you get narcsite notifications? I follow up only on particular posts and then the notifications go into my email, where I can see “my” conversations. If I am short on time or don’t want to stay on the site long, I respond to those and catch up with the rest later. It is pretty easy that way to only see what you need/want to see at the moment. I truly believe that narcsite stopped me many times from breaking NC and got me through the worst of it. I never would have made it without HG and the people here. But it would also trigger me occasionally, so I definitely see how it can be both a blessing and a curse.

            I think I have always been an avoidant but there might be a bit of over-compensating going on too. I didn’t know anything about attachment theory until I was splitting up with my ExH a few years ago so I wasn’t aware of it in past relationships. It confused me with MRN because I am very independent and pretty undemanding. I like to be alone and I have a lot of things that occupy me. I am never bored. I hardly ever cry and I am usually in a good mood. I knew it wasn’t MRN’s emotional distance that really bothered me. It was more the picking up and putting down. I like things to be consistent so that I can go about my business without worrying about my relationship, but his behavior (rather than his emotional makeup) made me have to focus on the relationship and question myself all the time. It was very frustrating because in some ways we were really compatible.

            I don’t know if OM was surprised to hear from me. Funny but after I sent the email, I didn’t hear back until the next day. The evening of the day I sent it I was with a male friend. I said that I had not heard from OM and he was probably obsessing about someone else. My male friend said no, that he was contemplating how to respond to me, and he was right. But since then, OM’s emails have gotten more and more frequent and he keeps expanding on our possible activities, whereas the only thing I mentioned is having a drink. He’s lonely but I am not and don’t want to be responsible for healing someone else’s loneliness. Does that make me a bad person?

            I won’t hurt him or maybe I will because is there any way that I won’t? I’ll just say we really are not cut out for each other. I do like him as a person – just not as an intimate partner. I wouldn’t be the first woman to tell him that. He’s been rejected numerous times due to the same problem, so he needs to work on it if he wants to have a relationship with anyone.

            But who knows – maybe one of us will have suddenly changed! (jk)

            8 weeks is awesome! This is just a minor blip. It will quickly turn into 12 weeks and soon you can stop counting (I have to think hard now about how many months it has been).

            I will look for you later but will understand if you take a break. Hugs!

          67. SMH says:

            Kim e, reporting back that it went well with OM. Much more relaxed, both of us able to be open and honest, no resentment, no hurt. We hung out for four hours. He’s good to talk to and I like his company. Just don’t want to get emotionally involved and he is not a ‘fling’ type, so that leaves a friendship (he only compulsively touched me once, to stroke my hair). He said it was not him on my LinkedIn. He doesn’t even know how to use it. Makes sense that he wouldn’t, given his profession and that he is (early) retired now. So that leaves only one possibility – MRN. Oh well. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

            Hope you had a bearable evening and have some good plans for the weekend. xo

          68. Kim e says:

            SMH, Not my circus, not my monkeys……that was my saying the whole weekend at the wedding. Someone would ask me about how to set soemthing up or comment on how they thought it should be done and that statment would come out of my mouth. !!!!!
            Stroking your hair gave me goosebumps……and not in a good way. that creeped me out. REALLY!!!????
            Otherwise sounds like you had a good time which I am glad to hear.
            I got another call yesterday. Just looked at it ring…………..thought about picking it up and saying HI W!!!!!! LOL……that would be interesting….LOL HHHMMMMMM
            Just a thought.
            Happy Friday. Sleeping late tomorrow. Bad weather for Saturday. Binge watching something,, cooking in the crock pot and laundry. Sunday will be nice out and I am going to go to a Fall craft thing.

          69. SMH says:

            Yeah, really, Kim e. He’s very tactile so I think it is hard for him NOT to touch me. It was brief, though, so I did not react. To be honest, he could probably seduce me if he went about it in the right way but I think I intimidate him, so that’s a bit of a turn off for me. He also suffers from melancholia (he says – I say depression). Not so fun! I told him my attachment theory regarding MRN and him, and he got it. He’s smart and self-aware, just cannot really control a lot of things about himself. He’s got some childhood issues (don’t we all) as well as a dead wife, so he has had a lot happen to him. I am not interested in ‘saving’ anyone but someone else will be and he will find a partner.

            Sounds like a chill enough weekend. Bad weather is good because you don’t have to feel that it is wrong to stay indoors or even in bed. I just got back from a week’s travel but have neighborhood stuff this weekend and people depending on me. I already had a date this week so hey ho! My favorite night to stay in is Saturday because I can sleep in knowing that I won’t have any emails on Sunday! I can peruse narcsite instead. Been awhile since I’ve been able to do that.

            Speaking of getting another call (do NOT answer Miss Naughty), I have another fake FB friend request. There are three of them in my notifications now. Narcs must buy them or something because there is no way that someone could make these themselves. Me accepting one of those would be like you answering the phone. Just don’t do it. Not your circus, not your monkeys! xo

          70. Kim e says:

            Well, OM down. Moving on to the next….LOL. You vamp you!!!!! Any new info regarding the perverted neighbor?
            No emails on Sunday? Care to elaborate pleeze?
            My weekend truned out to be very bizzarre. I intended to go to the fall craft thing with my friend late afternoon/early evening. I had a sports doctor/chiropractor appt in the morning as my right arm is messed up. I have never been to a chiro before but was referred by the guy that owns the gym I go to. I get to the doctor office and hear the normal first appt blah blah blah. They do some tests. The doctor is Japanese and mixed some “energy flows” into the consultation. I lay down and he says he is going to adjust my neck. He warns me about the POP sound it will make and explains what causes it. He adjusts, it POPS, I immediately start crying. I can not control it. It did not hurt. It kinda scared me but this crying is uncontrollable. Tears just rushing out of my eyes. (This also happened to me within 24 hours of my first Reiki treatment) He tells me it is from me holding on to “bad stuff” for so long. I finally stop the tears and get in my car. The tears just start again. I have no control but I need to be able to drive so I force myslef to stop. As soon as I pull into the garage and shut the door, the tears start again for 1.5 hours!!!!!! At this point in time I have a headache. This went on and off into the night. My friend called and we decided that next weekend would be better.
            Sunday comes around and it is a beautiful day. I opened the windows and cleaned, cooked, and took a nap. At 6:08 I get a call from a number I do not recognize. I do not answer. There is no message. I google it and it comes up with a bunch of BS answers but does not point to anyone specifically. Hello Mr. Monkey….???????? LOL

          71. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            Meaning I won’t have any work emails on Sunday. I had two remote calls this morning and then fell asleep for three hours. Married work gigolo was on the first call. Last week he made a joke because I wouldn’t let them see me but this week I’d gotten up early and managed to get ready so video was on. He does not read his emails so something I had spent quite some time thinking through he wasn’t even aware of. His laissez faire approach can drive me nuts. I beg – for my own sanity please formalize this so I know my workload going forward! It is reminding me of my conflicts with MRN over the lack of planning – seems to more be an excuse to keep me engaged/string me along – MWG keeps drawing me further and further into the core planning group just like MRN drew me into the relationship.

            Maybe MWG is a narc too and I need a consultation because I have to learn how to manage this. I end up flaming at the admin person instead, though once I did talk to MWG about it. But just like MRN it doesn’t matter what I say. Instead, the same shit keeps happening. I just signed on to another project with him. I could leave it all at any moment and be fine, but I could also have left MRN at any moment and been fine. What keeps me from doing that?? In this case, the work itself is the hook – it is MWG’s way of keeping me close and getting fuel. I think I was looking at it wrong before – I was thinking that the narc relationship would be an intimate one, so I was managing that. But it is actually a non-intimate one that revolves around my commitment to the work.

            I spent several hours yesterday with neighbor guy. We had a meeting and then were supposed to split up, with his wife and someone else doing one activity, and me and him another – it made sense – it was about letting her go do her thing, and we would take their kids because our activity was outdoors. But she came with us and I’m like, weren’t you supposed to go do X? Some weird excuse but there we were – three adults with their kids. I left because it was raining anyway and we couldn’t do what we’d planned. Earlier in the week I’d had an argument with her because she made a unilateral decision that meant more work for me and contradicted what she had said a few weeks ago. So, now I am beginning to see that he is childish and she is controlling but I don’t know how much of that is because of what allegedly happened vs how they are anyway. NOT MY CIRCUS, THANKFULLY! You know, things could be a lot worse when you see that sort of situation.

            Pt – well, shall I make you laugh? I have been to pt and chiro for my lower back (problems disappeared after I started strength training, so this was all years ago now). PT – I get this Mormon or Mennonite guy or something like that. I have to spread my legs, etc and suddenly I notice he has a hard on. He was so embarrassed – I think from then on I insisted on having a woman. A few years later I go to chiro for sciatica. The guy saved my life, actually. I was crying in his office when I arrived. All very professional until a few months in, when he starts getting way too close and moving my body in ways that made me uncomfortable. Done with that too. From now on, no male practitioner of any sort of medicine is allowed anywhere near any part of my body except if they are gay and except for my upper arm (blood pressure, vaccinations, etc.)

            All joking aside, I do think your guy is right about the crying and the bad stuff. The pop was just another aspect of that. Crying gets the toxins out – I just get angry instead of crying. Years ago I cried over someone so much that I vowed I would never cry again (he ended up in jail anyway). I never therefore cried about MRN until post-escape, and that was out of frustration and led to more anger, because once he made me cry, all bets were off. I told Matrinarc to fuck off three times in succession last week, my voice getting louder and louder each time. When I told OM this, he said ‘good for you’! (He had a narc father so he gets it.) So cry away or get angry – both work! – but do be careful of those male chiropractors!!

            As for LI views, I have no idea how they keep track of those things. Sometimes it tells me I have, say, 14, and then when I look, there are only 11 and they don’t show me all of them anyway because I do not pay for the service. When MRN has been on there, there is a number with ‘private’ views. Went from 0 for a long time to 4 right after I noticed the IG dynamic changing to 3 last week. What happened to the other one? No idea. Or was it 3 more on top of the 4? Again, no idea.

            Could be Mr Monkey on the phone but maybe not. Still, it’s thought fuel for him so he wins!! I got a weird call today too but then realized it had come through Google Voice which I put on my phone but never gave to anyone. It was a spam number. So bye bye GV because I have never used it and I am already getting spammed? I’ll just get another number if I need it 🙂

            How was your day at work after your weekend purge? I hope you felt better about things and had some laughs. And now you have some plans for next weekend! Always an upside!

          72. Kim e says:

            SMH. Freaking out here. As I was walking to the train tonight as I was approaching a corner I looked to the right to see if traffic was coming. I saw a guy on the opposite corner just staring at me. Built like my N. Holding his backpack like my N. I stood there staring trying to figure out if it was him. This guy had a beard. I had never seen N with a beard. He was wearing a baseball cap. Never saw N with a bb cap. Always when it got cold a knit hat.
            I forced myself to look away in case it was him
            I got stopped at the light. He would have crossed right to be by me. Others crossed and surrounded me but I never saw him. He could have stayed on the corner and never crossed or crossed and stood behind me. I never looked back. Even once I cleared the intersection. Even when I got in the station.
            If it was him he left work 30 minutes early.
            Couple reasons I think it was him
            1. He just stared at me. The beard made him appear different but as soon as I spotted him my brain said “W”
   text was our only form of communication he is still blocked
            3 I have not been answering those weird calls
            4. He can’t find my car
            Now I am paranoid he is on the train I am on. Won’t do him any good as I get off at the new stop BUT if he figures out that I am now at the new station he could follow me in the morning
            SHIT. Is it just my mind? My ET is at the stage we’re I normally would unblock him and it has been nagging at me yesterday and today. But LT won out
            I just know it was him……..that gut feeling appeared instantly when I saw him

          73. HG Tudor says:

            Use evidence.

            1. Built like the N. So are many men.
            2. Held his backpack like the N. how many different ways can one hold a backpack – not many, therefore this could apply to many people.
            3. He has a beard. The N does not. True, he may have grown one, but unlikely.
            4. He was wearing a BB cap. The N does not. True, he may have obtained one, but usually does not.

            Logical analysis suggests that was not him.

          74. Kim e says:

            Ok. I will give logic 50% on this. But not going to question it. Or go rounds with you. Can’t do anything about it anyway if it was him

            I really am surprised that you didn’t tell me that if it was him just ignore him

          75. HG Tudor says:

            I did not need to, you walked away.

            What I did was give you an evidential breakdown to prevent you from ruminating further on it.

          76. SMH says:

            HG, I agree that logic suggests it wasn’t him but I also think the anxiety/ET that makes Kim e think it was him needs to be addressed by someone who has been there!

            Kim e, you are just on high alert – your senses are all haywire. I went through that a few times, once in the middle of NYC, where he used to come on business (maybe still does, no idea). My gut also told me it was him and I stopped dead in my tracks, but it was not him, just someone who looked like him. I also don’t think a mid-ranger would jump through such hoops as you describe. Remember they are very passive and low energy when it comes to hoovers. The phone calls I can see because he doesn’t really have to lift a finger, but not a new disguise. So don’t worry about it. If he appears in front of you, then you can worry (well, really, don’t worry – come here if that happens). In reality he is a person, not a ghost or a CIA agent, though I know it feels like they are!!

          77. Kim e says:

            Thanks for the words. I did not think it was a disguise. Just that since I had seen him he had let his beard grow and bought a bb hat. He is too vain to do that. I mentioned the backpack. 98.6% of people carry their backpacks completely on their back. He carries his slung over his right shoulder. Also since he is inthe army, he stands ramrod straight. It really would not have taken any “effort” other than making an excuse to leave work early. The way our buildings are he could walk out his, stand there, watch me leave mine to see which route I was going to take to the station and alter his to run into me. He has done that numerous times before.
            I am not convinced that it was NOT him. I almost parked at the old train lot today (ET talking to me) but in the long run I did not. I keep telling myself “he did not disengage from you. You keep leaving him because nothing is going to change. This was your decision…not his”. Guess LT is creeping up on ET….but still hurts like hell.

          78. SMH says:

            Exactly, Kim e. You made the decision, not him. I went through the same turmoil because MRN never disengaged either. I much prefer to be broken up with because then I don’t have to deal with any guilt. Look what I did with OM – same thing in many ways except he is not a narc so there is honesty, reason and closure.

            Anyway, it doesn’t matter if it was him or was not him. You do not want him because perhaps he does things like disguise himself to follow you. Who does that??!! Do not let him or thoughts of him push you off your path, both your work commute and your wider path in life!

          79. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Just have a sec right now…but seeing you detail weird calls you keep receiving on this thread several times, I keep meaning to mention…remember that it’s big political fundraising time in the U.S. right now…practically everyone I know (myself included) are getting the type of calls you mentioned, down to the odd numbers & no answer/huge pause & hang-ups when you pick up (often the nature of robo dialing — or calling centers/individual campaign fundraising that drop one call for another).

            I agree with HG’s stone-cold logic on “The Bearded Backpacker”…possible – yes, but seems pretty unlikely. Carry on with confidence in your NC, woman💜

          80. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated, CIF.

          81. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you for your very giving words, HG. I do appreciate what I’ve learned from you – much thanks to you.

            One of the best qualities of an Empath is their kindness/compassion, and I have to say, it’s very hard for me to see it being taken advantage of, like with how kind MP is, which is why she was being so gracious & generous to the person on this thread, who was playacting (as were other dear Empaths, being kind to the fraudster)…speaking for myself, I have to say I don’t especially like being able to see it when someone is up to no good like this — a fake persona lying to very good people. But it is what it is — I can’t pretend otherwise. I’ve noticed I will speak up *for* someone else (like MP, who’s a gem), as it actually pains me to see the other person’s treachery, so I will say something – but then I will let it go, as everyone has to decide for themselves.

            However, if the fake persona is doing things *to* or about me, as in specific trait acquisition/mirroring of me (which this person on this thread has done, quite a lot/coming & going on the site & reinventing themselves) — I will just ignore it. I do that partly because I know who I am, so if someone is going to mirror me & pick out some of my traits & play a game of pretend…well, it’s irritating to know/see that they are lying like that, as a kind of cheap imitation of another very real human being — but I also feel like, “Oh, who really cares? I know who I am — so copy me, whatever.” I mean, you’ll kind of have your hands full with that – I’m not that simple! LOL.

            Who can BE another Empath? Nobody. We’re too complex/multi-faceted. We’re all unique, which is a very beautiful thing.

          82. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thank you, HG…and everyone kindly ignore the more lengthy reply to HG, in a separate post on this thread (which I *think* will show up here…it was meant to be a reply on another thread, so I have reposted it to the correct thread — after I saw my mistake).

            You know me, always up on all this tech stuff!🥴

          83. Kim e says:

            Is it realy possible that MWG is a MRN? Sometimes they are so subtle and patient at sucking us in that we dont know. My N used to always tell me “I am very patient. I have nothing but time”. He forgot to add and 800 women…….:-(
            The crying just kinda freaked me because I did not expect it from a chiro appt. My reiki treatments yes but I have not really had any reaction to them as of late so I stopped getting them. Maybe need to find a different reiki master as I know my energies are F’d up and I should see some type of reaction.
            LOL…this morning my LI views went down another 1. I am losing fans as I type. I do pay for the premium and it still doesnt show me. But I really dont care either.
            GV? is that for conferecne calls? My sons and I use Hangouts whcih is thru google for text messages but I never heard of GV.
            Worked out Monday night and felt good afterwards. Shoulder/arm issue hurt like hell Tuesday so I too the day off from working out. Working out again tonight and tomorrow. I am committed to 3 nights a week. I would go more but the weight lifting that I really enjoyis only 2 nights so I fill in the other with cardio stuff which is ok but not my favorite.
            I hate this feeling of just standing still. Like I am not making any progress in my life. I am still stuck between wanting to hear from N and scared to death (as shown yesterday) that I will. Thinking that it might take me 4 months or longer to get the ET to where I just dont care any more is killing me. I am still in the I do miss him phase but know that it is pointless.
            Well work just went from nothing going on to 31 emails that need looking at.
            TTYL and thanks again for the pep talk.

          84. SMH says:

            Kim e, MWG might be both. He is certainly a womanizer, which I have written about previously – probably before we ‘met.’ He gave me special treatment when we were traveling together this summer, but then I slipped money under his office door so things did not escalate (I owed him for drinks and he wanted me to take him out to pay him back). He never mentioned receiving it. Wounded? He likes having lots of women around – he mentors very young ones as well as me, which looks bad to my mind (the young ones). Narc or just your run of the mill womanizer?? Both? Idk.

            Good to know you pay for LI and it doesn’t show you anyway! Haha. I will never pay now!

            GV – my son uses it so that his grandmother can call him on a US number and it routes to him overseas (he’s in Europe). I don’t know what other use it would have except if you don’t want someone to have your real number. You use it like Skype, I guess (you can also get a Skype number that routes to your own phone). Hangouts is embedded in Gmail but GV is a separate app. It is trying to get at my phone contacts and I won’t let it, so it won’t show me who’s calling me (two more today). I keep forgetting to just remove it.

            You are working out a lot and you are not standing still, either literally or figuratively. You have some shit to get through is all, and things will normalize and other stuff will start happening and your mood will change. You have already gone two months. The fact that the possibility of seeing N is making you so anxious is all the proof you need that you don’t want to see him! He is not healthy for you.

          85. Kim e says:

            I am telling you. I am amazed at how “bonded”, “attached” whatever the word is to my N I still am. I am telling you that sighting (?) real or imagined completely screwed me up. Last night I decided I was not going to unblock but I was going to move back to the old parking lot. He wont look for me as I am not important…just 1 of may IPSS’s (DLS or not) that he can chose from. as I went to sleep I had full intention of going to the old lot. Kept waking up thruout the night thinking about this parking spot. REALLY?????? This is the biggest choice I need to make in my life now? When I got up this morning, I still intended on going to the old spot. As I walked out the door, I went to the new spot. I guess my ET is calming down as I keep saying everytime I think of unblcoking him, WHY? It will just go back to the way it was…..1 of many. I have said it before, I dont mind being in a 3rd party situation but a 5th or 6th party is too much.
            Not saying I am anywhere near safe from my ET. If he does hoover….a hoover where I really know it is him electronically or physically……not certain what my response at this time would be. To be honest, I think my trait of wanting to say stuff to him about why I cant get involved again would take over and I would get involved again…..LOL But sa la vie.
            Thanks for being a sounding board.
            You too Mr. HG…stalked to the Empaths!!!!

            I have skype from when my kids where deployed with the Army. We also use it on Christmas to open rpesent with all of us on it. One is in Seattle and the other is in California. Nice to at least see their faces for the holiday.
            Have you heard from OM at all? I am assuming that you just left it with “it’s been nice. Have a nice life.”.
            I feel a vegging time coming on. The weather is getting cold here and the older I get the more I hate the cold.
            Looking forward to my next chiro appointment on Halloween. I could use a good cry…………….LOL
            Goin gto go hang out on IG now and see what kind of trouble I can get into………….

          86. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            Good for you for getting through the phantasma and the parking lot dilemma. It is amazing how one little thing can take up so much head space.

            Listen, not agreeing to be the 5th or 6th is exactly why I told MRN that if we were to have an affair, I had to be the only IPSS. That was one of my conditions (mind you this was 10 months after we had first gotten together and a few months after I learned of IPPS). If I found out there were other IPSSs I would have killed him. Who knows really but I don’t think he had real life time for anyone else (I mostly knew where he was because of IG), and how many women would have agreed to an affair? Most women would not. We have to remember that we are not representative of the general population.

            Eventually, I began to be uncomfortable with being IPSS too. Ewww, basically. That is one reason I told him (pre finding HG) that he had to be out of his marriage and alone if he wanted to be in contact with me (just contact – our relationship would be decided by both of us). I don’t normally share and I don’t think anyone has ever cheated on me except maybe during the demise of a relationship when we weren’t sleeping together anyway. So keep that thought in mind. It helps with ET to remember that they are man-whores.

            No word from OM and I don’t remember how we left it. I don’t think I told him not to contact me but nor have I thought about him much!

            That’s cute about Xmas. I make mine come to wherever I am, even if I have to pay for the plane ticket. I can’t get mine to use Skype normally anyway – it’s WhatsApp only.

            Speaking of Skype, I think I just fell in love over Skype. lol. I had to Skype with this guy who wants to rent my apartment and we talked forever! Neither of us wanted to hang up. He was super intelligent, cute, funny and age appropriate (and divorced). But he is half a world away and I won’t meet him anyway, ESPECIALLY if he does rent my apartment because I’ll be gone. How funny is that? 🙂 Talk about being avoidant!! I am so good at it!

            Hope your day has been hoover-free! It’s beautiful here and I am going out now to get some fresh air and sunshine.

          87. Kim e says:

            So knowing what you do now, do you believe you were the only IPSS? We might not be representative of the general population (we are special) BUT they only chose special people so the general population has no bearing here. OR do you mean that we are different because we will have affairs? Sounds so dirty…LOL Dirty empaths…maybe that should be my next tattoo.
            As far as the parking situation goes…my town is conspiring against me. So they redid that lot a couple weeks ago. Use to be 2.00 a day to park in the lot…same as my old lot. Well now I guess they figured out they have to pay for the new lot and are raising it to TEN DOLLARS a day starting 12/1/19 thru 12/31/2022. WTF!!!! So that means instead of paying $5.00 a week to park, I will have to pay $50.00. I refuse to do that. Sorry. I am just going to have to suck it up and hide my car in the old lot. Maybe by 12/1 my car will have been gone long enough and he wont even consider looking for me there. Shit…LOL….maybe I will park in his old spot that he parked in every day until he moved to the other die to be with the new CIPSS. OR I will just bill him monthly to pay the difference in the parking bill. GGGGRRRRRR
            Am I going to have to ban you from all forms of communication???!!!! Love over skype??? (HG dont listen to this part) Just remember the Long Distant Empath. Dont have to be in proximate to be sucked in. BUT tell me more……Was it phone skype? Or I can see you skype? Details lady.
            Good day. I can feel the old me coming back in waves. He is still there in my mind but not as bad. No more sightings either. Fingers crossed he stays busy elsewhere for a long time (u interested? I could hook you up) and I can peacefully slink away.
            Nails this weekend, movies and pizza. But the weather is turning…………I hate it.
            Talk later. Stay out of trouble please. Since I dont know where or who you are, bail is kinda hard. But if I did have that info, bail would be right there!!!!!

          88. SMH says:

            Aww Kim e, Thank you for the bail offer. That is the mark of a true friend, plus you know me so well :).

            Skype was video. He did try to flatter me, which threw me off a bit. Probably another narc. Ho hum.

            What movie are you seeing?

            I totally understand about the weather. New York is gorgeous in the fall but Chicago only has two very extreme seasons, both horrible!

            I meant different in the sense of having affairs but yes I guess being empaths too. I don’t really have a sense of what % of the pop is ‘normal’ but I suspect it is the highest percent? (HG?) For the record, I don’t think DEs of any stripe have anything on narcs.

            Of course MRN lied about his marital status so I did not know about IPPS for 8 months (I was away for 5 of those). I suspected but did not know. I got really stoned one night while I was away and got extremely obsessive, paranoid and angry (why I do not smoke pot). A male friend told me I was being a suspicious bitch, that MRN was just a workaholic (which he was) but it turned out I was right. Maybe if I smoke pot again, I will have better insights, including about whether there were any other IPSS. I don’t think there were irl during the affair part, but who knows what he was doing online.

            I am 99% certain there was one post-escape, which is one reason I told IPPS. I will tell you why I think so if you are curious about it.

            Sometimes I think the whole relationship was about me getting back at him for lying to me – I was just biding my time, collecting evidence, gathering strength, and waiting for the opportunity to kick him in the balls and run away.

            As for the p lot, I think by the time you have to move back to the old lot ($10 a day is extortionate), your ET will be lower. When/if you run into him, just keep ‘ewww man whore’ in your head. Honestly, I do not know what would happen if I lived in the same place as MRN. I’d be nervous too, I know, but hopefully I would also try to look at it as another step in the process. I think HG has a post on this – what to do/how to act if you have to be around the narc. Sweetest Perfection also ran into hers (if I am remembering correctly) and handled it very well. I am sure you will too – it might be more the anticipation than the reality that is throwing you off?

          89. Sweetest Perfection says:

            SMH: by allusion, yes I did run into him but not in our city, which is ironic. Here I haven’t because I have “spies” who look at his Facebook for me to let me know if he’s in town and where so that I can avoid him. So far it has worked. I had to fight my ET a couple of times when I knew he was here because my ET wanted to run into him, but Logic won. What I do in those cases, as HG taught has, is to get distracted with something immediately. If I’m thinking about going to the library to possibly run into him, I put on my sport clothes and go run instead, when I’m done I have already abandoned that thought. If I’m driving and thinking of passing by his workplace, I suddenly take another route and end up in a store buying some clothes. It’s all about aborting ET’s mission.

          90. SMH says:

            Excellent advice, SP. I hope Kim e can distract herself when she is fighting ET like that. Also a very good description of what happened when you did run into him. I too stiffened up the last time I saw MRN. I think I had a conversation about those hugs with you!! He did it on two occasions – both when I had escaped. Both times I was incredulous, especially the last time as I had really ripped into him. But I guess it is all about control and coming out on top. He never hugged me like that when we were in the Formal Relationship!

          91. Kim e says:

            SMH and SP,

            I have a recurring fantasy that I run into N and he is with a female that is not his wife. I say Hi W. Then extend my hand to the female and say “Hi. You must be _____. It is so nice to meet you. I have heard so much about you.” Then excuse myself.
            Makes me wake with a smile every time.
            Thanks for the ideas to get ET under control. My hardest time is Sunday and Sunday nights. Must be the anticipation of Monday since that to me is the highest place and time for me to see him or be hoovered. My LT yells at my ET all the time.
            I know I got this….it is still very early in NC even tho it seems like forever.

          92. SMH says:

            That’s pretty funny, Kim e. You got it!

          93. Kim e says:

            My new motto:
            Grant me the serenity to accpet the people I cannot change.
            The courgare to change direction when I see them coming.
            And the wisdom to not try to smack some snese into them when I can’t avoid them.

          94. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yep. My blood pressure just rose after a conversation with Matrinarc. Smack down, blame game. She calls me ‘sweetie.’ lol. I’m like, you treat me like a piece of shit on the bottom of your shoe except when you need something, then I am ‘sweetie.’ So predictable.

            The week I saw OTT, Matrinarc told me to take two pieces of furniture. She lives hours away and it is a pain and expensive to get there but I was already there (bus), being a dutiful daughter. The plan was that I would use her car, which she can’t drive because she can’t walk, to get the things home, bring the car back the following week and take the bus home. I told the person I was staying with that I was pretty sure it would not work out only because I know what Matrinarc is like. Sure enough, at the last minute, Matrinarc decides that she ‘needs’ the car for an appointment around the corner a few days away, so I cannot take it. Can’t you take a $5 cab ride? Safer that way. Mumbles some reason why she cannot, and anyway it is her car, not mine. OK, no problem!! So I get on the bus without the things and it takes me four hours to get home. Now she calls about what I did not take – come up by bus, get the car, take the things, bring the car back, return home on the bus. Sorry, Matrinarc! I do not care about those things any longer. I do not want them. It is not worth my time or the cost or the aggro I have to go through with you to get them.

            She also wants me to ‘hold her hand’ while she is moved around the corner in the same building. Sorry, Matrinarc, I have plans the day you are being moved (true). But I didn’t know the day, she says. Neither did I, I say.

            Oh and what did that rug in the storage unit look like, she asks. Well, I say, when I was there I offered to take a picture of it for you but you didn’t want me to go down there. So I do not know what it looks like.

            That was literally a two minute conversation. It reminds me of what it would be like if MRN and I were to speak… trying to get a narc to see someone else’s point of view is impossible.

          95. Kim e says:

            SMH…….you really should stop picking on that poor old lady. She gets confused and you are supposed to be helping her. You are so mean. She cant help it if plans change and screw up your entire world. It is not her fault that you did not take the picture even tho she did not want you to go down to the storage. It is her car and is probably better than any you ever had or will have.
            I know this guy names HG that can probably help you with your issues…….he is on line. Look him up….
            ROFLMAO….I crack myslef up and yes I typed it with a straight face.
            Thank goodness my mother wasnt a narc…just your old run of the mill bitch. No love lost on her. Come to think of it….MAYBE she was a N!!!! I am gonna have to think on this.

          96. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            You crack me up too! Have a think on it because I had no idea my mother was a narc until I got here. I also used to think she was just a bitch. Now I tell everyone, including family members, that she’s a narc and I analyze her. It has been even more difficult since my sister passed away because my sister – who also hated my mother – dealt with it better than I did and she was like a buffer for me. But hey ho, Matrinarc has lots of friends and help where she is, two faced as she is. I hope everyone up and down the corridor heard when I yelled at her the week that I was there.

            I called her back today and said well if my sil will lend me her car, I can drive up there and get the stuff, but I cannot come the day you are moving, which is all she cared about. She has to have an operation so now I am waiting to hear about that and what will be required of me. But I still remember the time I had a severe asthma attack in front of her and she literally turned her head away and did not even ask how she could help. Of course she would deny it but she is really a gaslighter extraordinaire. Always has been. Now she tells me that she’s so old her brain is addled and I tell her, well, if I say something happened then it happened. OK? Makes sense to me but not to her. A few weeks ago she called me six times in a row. I called her back and she asked what *I* wanted, like she was all busy. I said ‘you called me six times.’ ‘No I didn’t.’ ‘Yes you did – it is on my phone that you called six times.’ She might not have realized it but if *I* say you called six times, then you called six times. Right?

            Interestingly, she confessed a few weeks ago that she was a bad mother. She was crying about my sister and said ‘I didn’t have much of a relationship with my own mother’ ‘I did not know how to be a mother.’ WELL, LOOKEE HERE. I didn’t have much of a relationship with my mother either but my son turned out just fine. All the grandkids did. Always blaming someone else…

          97. Kim e says:

            I decided to not even start figuring out if my mom was a N. She is gone but with just the little bit of thinking I did about it, yes she was. Schuffled me and my brother off to our gparents to be raised, was married 5 times, never went any of my school stuff….blah blah blah. If I did go and see her in her later years…she was like 96 when she died, ……my limit was 2 days and I was GONE!!!! And that was strecthing it. Her husband thought she could do no wrong. BARF………
            AAAHHHH family….that is an entire other subject…LOL

          98. SMH says:

            But you know there are still lessons to be learned, Kim e. The way we were socialized has a lot to do with getting ensnared in later life. Also, interacting with my mother, which sends my ET skyrocketing, clues me in as to what it would be like to interact with MRN. It is a good reminder. He crept into my head today while I was doing something really repetitious and boring for hours and hours. As soon as I was done he was gone, but I was nervous there for a minute that I was in the kind of headspace where I could have either been chatting with him or broken NC because I was bored and wanted some drama. I haven’t wanted drama for awhile – really since I escaped. But I can feel my need for it returning. Just don’t want it from my mother!!

          99. Kim e says:

            Later life ensnarement. I think about that a lot. I was 61. And from what I have heard his new “freind” ( not sure if they are still a thing) is OLD. That is exactly how my friend that knows how old I am described her when telling me about him and his new “Friend”. She is old…..I thought that strange.
            HG, are older people a target more as becoming DLS since the N really has no intentions of leaving the IPPS? Is there a reason why older people would be targeted?

          100. SMH says:

            Kim e, Maybe yours just has a thing for older women? Mine didn’t. I was older just by a few years but look younger than him. The woman he tried to triangulate me with was two decades younger than him.

          101. SMH says:

            Kim e, I had dinner with a woman the other night (friend of a friend – he was there too) who had been married four times. I don’t feel so badly now :).

          102. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh, also, you were correct, the time I ran into him it was more the anticipation than the actual moment. I was extremely nervous prior to that because I knew I was going to see him, it was a relatively small venue for a work event and there was a high probability of seeing each other, as it happened. I didn’t feel a thing when it finally occurred, and he hugged me, but I was stiff. So you don’t faint, cry, or have a heart attack. Now you know he’s empty, so it’s not that bad. It also depends on the school of narc and the external conditions, mine is an UL, he was alone and I had male company so he tried to be friendly.

          103. Kim e says:

            Boring weekend. No movie except the one I rented and watched…It was good but at the moment it is slipping my mind.
            And speaking of slipping…I am sure HG would say it broke NC……but I parked in the old lot today. Guess that last bit of ET is still alive and well. Since I have been to work, my LT has taken over, yelled at and humilitated my ET. I will go back to the new yucko lot until 12/1 and hope that my ET is way down by then and that the N has found his true love and run away with her to the land of forever happiness leasving behind the past!!!!!!
            OK…well now that I have confessed on myself, this week holds nothing special. Working out, chiro, work…..blah blah blah. OH AND POSSIBLE SNOW.
            SNow is one of the reason I hate the new lot. The old lot is across the street from where I live. The other is about a 10 – 15 minutes drive. Only good thing is it is at 0520 and the traffic is really light in the morning. Hope the bif snows hold out until after 12/1.
            Once again we agree on getting the last word/reaction. Even if he gets fuel, I get my say and then can get my own closure. I know HG preaches that this is not a good thing and I do not plan on making it so that he can contact me but in a perfect world, if he does manage to get thru to me I would say my say and close to hole forever.
            Not going to dwell on it but my ET is so high on Mondays. I know why and other then changing jobs and not coming downtown any longer, there is nothing I can do about it. I ahve no plans on doing either.
            I agree with you 1000%……the anticipation and maybe a little bit of false hope, makes the thought of a hoover scary. I keep telling myslef, he can not contact you electronically and doesnt have the balls to reach out in person. So it is all in my head….as the entire thing has been.
            Really wishing someone would come along to take my mind off him….keep me entertained.

          104. HG Tudor says:

            You do not need to have your say. This is ET.

          105. Kim e says:

            You do not need to have your say. This is ET.

            I know HG. Just an empath fantasy.

          106. HG Tudor says:

            Kill that fantasy Kim, kill it with logic.

          107. Kim e says:

            Party pooper.

          108. HG Tudor says:

            What did you expect, I am a narcissistic psychopath or had you forgotten?

          109. Kim e says:

            Some times…yes…I do forget. You are just the nice guy on the blog helping us get our lives back.
            But then I read the stories of the Shieldmaiden and cringe for her remembering who you are
            Either way…thanks HG for helping me…..stubborn thing that I am.

          110. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          111. SMH says:

            Kim e, I totally get wanting to have your say/not having closure, etc. I wanted to have my say too, and I did, but that was before I found HG. Had I found HG in time, I would have handled things differently. In fact, after I had my say I was feeling really at peace with everything, but then the IGH came along and I got sucked back in – not as IPSS but as NISS, which was worse. In the end – the very end – I still think that MRN won because he THINKS he won. Yours will figure out a way to think he won no matter what you do. As HG says, the biggest wound is silence. Go for the silence. I wish I had instead of feeling that MRN deserved an answer and an explanation.

          112. Kim e says:

            SMH……I thought that once you are IPSS you can never be NISS because the intimacy part is always there. YOU might have thought you were NISS but HE never did. He might have lead you to believe that but somewhere along the line……..he would suck you back into the sex part.
            Last time I saw my N (and I might have told you this before so forgive me if I have) that I knew he did not do feelings but I did. And that sometimes mine get overwhelmed with him so I would disappear whenever I needed to get them straight again. Not sure what he thought of that speech…I got a kiss on the cheek…..He probably thought “thats nice. Youare mine til I say so”…….LOL

          113. HG Tudor says:


          114. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes, I do see that now and you are right. It doesn’t matter what we do/say. At the time, I thought I was trying to be a friend. He would often slip into sexual innuendo and I would leave the conversation because I really had a different mindset. When I was IPSS we would tease each other a lot – a lot of word play. As NISS (to my mind) it bothered me that he would twist everything I said.

            I could have understood had he not been married because it would have been more like a normal breakup, where one person doesn’t want it. But he never acted like it bothered him when I would go NC, so I thought he would accept my decision with no problem. Like every other part of our relationship, however, our wires were crossed.

            Your comments make the wounding thing make more sense too because to him I was still an IPSS.

            Thank you for that insight!

          115. Caroline-is-fine says:

            This post of yours helped me make sense of something. When I was wanting to (previously/not anymore) be a NISS with the narc, I was thinking I could bring about something positive (mainly for his family). I did come to understand that was emotional thinking…because like HG says, you can’t control a narc. The narc wasn’t going for my NISS appeasement, so it was never going to happen. What I did *not* understand was why he didn’t go for it, as I kept thinking of how it could be benefit him — from my perspective.

            What finally hit me just now is that the narc himself told me the answer to that question. He said to me: “I have enough friends.” I realized his NISS people are all that positive, façade type fuel…but as his former IPPS, he wanted the intimacy that brings control (over me)…and also my negative fuel/challenge.

            Not that I ever challenged him. I was docile, all the time.🤸‍♀️…half the time?…ok, once in awhile.

            Congrats on your 18 months of NC. Impressive! I hope I get there, without further incident.

          116. SMH says:

            CIF, I hear you. For me I think the hardest part was losing someone I thought could be a friend (though I did not ask for the friendship – he ignored my boundaries and I let him do that). And no, it didn’t make sense to me either at the time. Why would you treat a friend that way?

            I think to our minds taking the emotional pressure off is supposed to make things easier whereas for them it makes things harder because when ET is dialed down, so is the fuel, so the manipulations get more difficult (for them). What you wrote makes perfect sense in that light.

            I was docile for awhile until that inadvertent wounding (again crossed wires because to him I was IP whereas to me I was NI) at which point I went a bit mad. The end was not pretty.

            How long has it been for you now? I hope 18 months is in sight! Though I have to say that I still have my moments…

          117. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Exactly 96 days! Recently on another thread with Kim, I gave 4 months timeframe, but then I went back in my narc journal for an exact count & saw/remembered he got through to me on one of my work places (via phone transfer call)…so I decided to take those NC days away from the total count. Maybe it doesn’t matter overall, but it matters to me, because I want to know the real number of days of cold, detached silence of NC. It motivates me, and it helps me to understand more…where I can correlate how I’m feeling & why, which can (in turn) help me speak/relate to others about their NC timeframe too.

            I think I’ve finally made the work phone situation a solid NC zone, which took some doing, especially since I do not tell anyone about my narc situation, in RL. He also does not know where I live now, which is my biggest relief, and that took much more doing, to make private/secure. If that dam breaks, I’m not going to be Caroline-is-fine anymore…and I’d need to turn to HG, because it’d be too much for me to figure out.

            You’re exactly right — we think of friendship like a release valve — and I think of friendship (in general) as a safe zone…why I would think for one moment he’d be a safe friend is way-wrong pride in my ability to “manage him.” That’s ET, for sure…for us empaths, friendship is a comfort/a joy/peaceful. But that’s because there’s TRUST. I do not trust him, so how would a fake friendship change that? He also knows he’s a narc, and he knows that I know he is…so that puts another mind-bending aspect to everything. It makes me more scared too…so him completely staying away is what I truly want.

            I feel so much better not being in contact at all…even my guilt is way low now. I see HG is right — they have set roles for us…I am “former IPPS,” and that is the only way he sees me — and intimacy was the crux of his control. So it’s what it is. I accept it. I can’t control it. I can’t help him (still glad I tried, as it was closure for me). I can only get harmed now.

            I don’t have moments of wanting to contact him, but I have moments of guilt, so I totally understand, SMH…so when we have those moments, we can come here, to back each other up. 💜It’s a beautiful thing.

            Hugs to you, SMH…and to you too, Miss Kim. 🥰You’re really stretching yourself & doing NC great!💛💜🤍💙💚❤🧡

          118. SMH says:

            Hugs to you too, CIF! I ‘met’ Kim e through you and she is doing great! I also think you were the first person I interacted with on here but I realize now that you have been NC on and off all this time (through no fault of your own).

            We were never whole people to them so changing roles is clearly not an option. We are still just collections of body parts with some fuel thrown in. They don’t see our full humanity because they do not see their own (no introspection). What we would want from a friendship, they could never give in the same way that what one would want from a Matrinarc (I have one of those too), one will never get.

            There is still that damned fascination, which I imagine is harder to resist with a Greater than with a mid-ranger, and the guilt as you say. But we have HG for the fascination and once you recognize the guilt for the ET that it is, you can control it. I am so glad you see that as your ET lessens so do your feelings of guilt. That has been one of the biggest things I have learned from HG.

            You are a month or so ahead of Kim e in your NC space. Kim e, use CIF’s experience to know where you will be in a month! And CIF, keep those safe zones secure. If he does break through one of them, you know what to do! xo

          119. Kim e says:

            SMH and CIF,
            Hi Ladies. Nice to see you both in one place. I am assuming that if all 3 of us were every in one place together the police would also be involved! 🙂 Yep, it is getting easier for me but the true test wil tomorrow as I treat every day as a new day and I never know what my ET will be doing that day. Literally every day at some pint in time, my ET says “unblock him….just see how long it takes him to text” and my LT says “shut up”. Also hoping my ET is way down for the trip back to the old parking lot in December where triggers galore live. BUT that is a long ways off. He might come back to me, profess his undying love and we will run off and get married. Then I wont have to worry about the parking.
            Not gonna lie, ET still very high even tho I tease about it. I still miss “us”. But it is getting better. Thanks to you ladies listening to me whine (OK HG you too). My head is 1/2 way out of the lions mouth.
            Love ya both. Peace, out!

          120. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You know darn well if the police are involved, that’s *all* you & SMH (and it’s gonna be pretty WILD😂)…but yes, I’ll be there, bailing you out – of course I will.🤸‍♀️ And no, I can’t get you out that same night – LE will say you were both too bad for that – but first thing in the morn.

            I understand, on you missing the “us.” Just remind yourself that the narc really only does ME, ME, ME…or him/himself & he.😛

            Oh, & the Amazon package can’t be from him because…narcs don’t deliver!😂

            The project manager has finally arrived🤸‍♀️ Stay strong, Kim! No turning back!

          121. SMH says:

            Kim e, You crack me up. Yes each day is a struggle. That is how my mood journal helped in the first months (well, during my six months NC before the final five month stretch, when I completely ditched it). I once asked MRN to please shoot me if I ever said I was getting married again. He must have gotten his wires crossed because shoot me he did, but he didn’t marry me (or profess his undying love). I am glad you are still at the new lot.

          122. Kim e says:

            Shot you? Literally?

          123. SMH says:

            Yes literally, Kim e! Of course not, silly (though I guess with narcs you never know). MRN wasn’t violent at all – not physically, anyway. My exHL was. He would have shot me had he had a gun but he was also easily intimidated.

          124. SMH says:

            Kim e, I just noticed your new avatar. ✨✨✨

          125. Kim e says:

            SMH. Thanks for noticing 👀 my Sparkle.

          126. SMH says:

            Kim e, Sparkly r us.

          127. Caroline-is-fine says:

            At this rate, I’ll have to subtract so many days that I’ll soon be asking: “Hey, Kim — what’s it like — up there at six months? I’m back to 12 days.” 😂

            It’s truly sweet of you to let me off the hook…but one portion of it *is* my fault, as I didn’t “Know & Go”…instead, I thought it was worth seeing if he could make another set of changes, with family support & therapy. I really did want to help…so I tried. I have to live with myself, so I did what I can live with…I’m ok with that, but there’s now a price to be paid for awhile, for the risk I took.

            I do find the Upper Echelon interesting. I have a certain mindset/discipline I keep with reading HG on-site, and it’s because I know it’s best for me…and if I ever interact with him (or I make a comment to him), I sometimes debrief myself (for lack of a better term) afterward. Sometimes it’s not at all necessary – it really depends. But then I keep my quiet, calm confidence in myself. That’s essential to my being on here.

            Well, I’ve been waiting all day on a floor replacement/project manager guy (my hot water heater burst). He’s called me 3 times to say, “I’m on my way, honey.” I don’t mind being called “honey,” but I hope to God he’s not a narc. I’m beginning to think there are a lot of narcy contractors. Anyway, in the time he’s taken to come, I’ve changed my mind & decided on tile. 🤑 <not gonna lie~really looking for a reason to use that money emoji…but I *did* decide on tile!🤸‍♀️

          128. SMH says:

            CIF, Yes I remember the therapy and the brother saying you were going on holiday with narc. Right? All of that. I just didn’t realize how recent it was. Listen, if we had to restart our NC count with every misstep, I’d have to restart mine today because not only did he creep into my head while I was doing something boring, I looked at his kids’ and IPPS’ social media (though not what they usually use so there wasn’t much new – just one pic of one kid). I got nothing out of it even though I also saw an old picture of him, one I have seen a million times. It just scares me to see him! There is nothing I miss about HIM really. What I miss is the addiction of the anxiety (wanting a hit) and then getting the hit and feeling those endorphins. I am a junkie. We all are.

            Was the contractor a narc? 🙂 And what were you going to have put in before you decided on tile?

          129. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Good memory! Yes, first the brother & me, as a team, with that ill-fated therapy initiative (failure)…then 2 of his medical-related hospitalizations (family called me on first one) — first was real – no idea if second was. So it’s been fun.😕 I get now that I can’t make this end all nice, peaceful or good. I also admit it’s hard for me to comprehend I’m incapable of helping/affecting/inspiring *any* positive change within him — but I do completely accept it, because it’s 100% true…what an entrenched disorder.

            The project manager was very nice, professional & I do *not* detect a narc. 🙂He looked at everything & did a write-up…next step is I go look at samples at the showroom…it’s in my laundry room (damage), so I can do either regular linoleum/tile-like linoleum (waterproof) or tile. I’ll have to see. I have to pay the difference from the claim, if I upgrade. I had no idea all this would get so involved. Insulin replacement too. I’m lucky it wasn’t worse!

            I’m up late🌙…Happy Halloween, peeps🎃

          130. SMH says:

            CIF, I love the look of tiles but they are hard and things you drop on them will break. They are cold too. I’d go with linoleum myself, or maybe fake wood (as it’s a laundry room).

            And yes, it is impossible for us to get our heads around the fact that we cannot fix this person. Also that whatever they have, they have with everyone. Maybe it’s even narcissistic of us to believe that we ’cause’ the behavior when we don’t have the power to stop it, start it or change it?

            I am now much better — thanks to HG — at recognizing my ‘savior’ tendencies and pulling away. Of course a lot of people think that a healthy relationship is about ‘mutual saving’ (they call it ‘mutual support’) but I don’t need to be saved and I don’t want to save anyone else.

          131. Kim e says:

            That what they had with us they have with everybody…….very true. I try to remember it is all repetition for them.

          132. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yeah, we have this fantasy (or nightmare) that they are content with someone else but they are not. That’s why I was so shocked when I found the IG. I expected him to be bbquing with the neighbors, hugging IPPS, goofing off with his kids, joking with his family. Nope, nope, nope. I really was shocked. That’s when I journeyed into the world of Aspergers.

          133. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I agree, on tile. 🙂 I changed my mind after the project manager showed me the waterproof linoleum. I also agree on the trying to “fix” other people. I like helping where I can, but “fixing” goes against my freedom-loving self…I’m textbook Magnet on wanting to inspire people to their own path, or to comfort them — but not to solve issues for them, as I just don’t believe that’s a real answer. I like being used as a catalyst for positive change, which is not the actual substance of the change-making, if that makes sense. I believe you can point someone to a place where they can help themselves, but you just can’t do it for them — and should never judge their pathway — it’s theirs…and I have great respect for that.

            The issue I do struggle with a great deal is that with NPD, the person has a disorder they did not choose, and so my heart is still very soft about that aspect, which is what plays into my guilt. I’m that way about anyone who struggles with conditions or disorders. I deeply feel for them. So that is where it can get tricky for me…which I know is what caused me to try help my ex & his family, with the therapy issue. I feel the family’s pain, and I have the hardest time turning away, even if I’m in jeopardy. I also feel sorry for my ex that he has NPD, whether he likes having it or not. It makes me sad. I’m not sure there’s a pat answer for that, but I’ve been thinking on it lately.

          134. SMH says:

            CIF, Good choice on the linoleum and yes, a disorder is sad. I guess I am more of a savior than you are but I wrestled with this a lot too because MRN showed that he was capable of different behaviors for periods of time. For instance, if he thought he was losing me, he’d be very attentive and affectionate, etc. When I was trying to get him to confirm a date and time the last time I saw him, he did and stuck to it, but only after I threatened to go to his house. Obviously any kind of support or concession was really about him, but I couldn’t get past the fact that he was capable if he wanted to do it. It was just such a battle all the time – utterly exhausting. I guess in the end, I do not feel sorry for him at all because he is conscious enough to know at least on an intellectual level that cheating on someone is not nice, that standing someone up is shitty, etc.

          135. Caroline-is-fine says:

            SMH, you are totally right, in how you think on that…and I hate even sharing this weakness of mine, because I don’t want to trip anyone else up into feeling sorry for narcissists by even reflecting on that; it does *no* good. Mine certainly knows what he does. He also only makes adjustments when it suits his purposes.

            It’s weird, because when I was in the FR & didn’t know what he was, I still did the same thing as today. I accepted “This is you,” and then I split whenever it was too much/too hard on me…I never thought of it as abuse then, but when he affected me enough, self-preservation kicked in. I find it shocking that I never once sat down with him & said: “The way you do ___ is upsetting me…” or even “___ needs to change.” I can’t recall any discussions like that…I certainly would have adult conversations with others as needed, in a healthy way. But with him, it’s like I knew that’s who he *was* – and no amount of discussion would change it. I know that even more today. With him, I take action. I walk out. I throw his phone in the lake. I toss a bucket of water on him. Yes, I did those things. But I chose not to say anything…because I know my words make no difference. I just realized that water is my Superpower.😂

            For you, with your wondering, at times, if he’s happy with someone else…

            Remember: They don’t do happy. They do power. So he’s not happier with someone else…he’s more powerful. That shows that you’re not easy to manipulate.

            Narc: Powerless, with you
            You: Powerful, without him

            That’s the real score.❤

          136. Kim e says:

            CIF & SHM

            Narc: Powerless, with you
            You: Powerful, without him

            Only 1/2 of this is corect. The narc always has power as he always has someone…be it a can opener or a frig with an ice maker….there is always someone…………….

          137. Caroline-is-fine says:

            True – was just trying to encourage SMH that he doesn’t have *her* to empower himself — something for her to remember.

          138. Kim e says:

            CIF. ❤️😂🎉👿🍩🤠🍦🌺🌺

          139. SMH says:

            CIF, Thank you for your kind comment but I think it was just my ET. For instance, today, with my ET lowered, I am CERTAIN that since he cannot be with me, he will NEVER be happy with anyone. MY fuel is the BEST fuel. He knows it, I know it. See how that works? 🙂

            You, me and Kim e all escaped. Isn’t that interesting? And here we are, wondering what we did to deserve this endless rumination about men we KNOW are incapable of any positive emotion.

            I accepted a lot too. We did talk about what I needed, especially when he was persuading me to have an affair, but the things I needed the most – consistency and transparency – he could not deliver. Still, I hardly criticized him (until post-escape, when I let fly) and also left whenever it got to be too much (five times). Partly this was because I took responsibility for making the decision to be IPSS so I accepted that what I got was what I got, at least in terms of time and attention. Again, it was the push-pull that I could not stand. I did not need him to love me. I needed him to be consistent for me. Too bad I did not have any water handy – but words are really my weapon of choice and I think I exploded at the end from holding them in. Had water been my superpower, I would have thrown a bucket or two over his head!!

            Hugs and kisses (and to you Kim e).

          140. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Well, one thing I have to admit is that I don’t ruminate over him (see why I can’t win for losing in this regard, in paragraph 2). But I do struggle with thoughts of him at work at times, because that’s where he has shown up…however, that guarded feeling gets better & better, as days go by. I’m almost at the point of ease 100% of the time at work places again, accepting that as an unknown. I will do my best if it ever occurs again, but I am a pretty quick study with the unexpected, so it will be what it will be (I know what to do/not do). I’ve done all I can realistically, with NC, for who I am. It’s important to me to feel free, and to be brave. I hesitate to type this, but I will…I’m the type of person who would much rather be very free and die earlier — than limit my life/be too guarded and live longer. Please don’t take that as I think I’m going to die!…it’s only to explain how important living freely is to me. I want to live fully & with many special moments (quality), more so than quantity. Ideally, I want both!😉

            So the narcissist doesn’t come to mind much anymore in a *personal* way, despite being on a narc site. BUT if I share anything personal about him (like a story from the past, attached to my *feelings*), it means I feel like I’m losing my compassion — and I feel a little guilty. I know! It IS ridiculous. I logically know that’s not true — my compassionate side is always strong. But anyway, if I’m just being technical on the site, about how narcs are (or using him as an example, to relate to others here), he’s not on my mind in any meaningful way. So, a tip-off: when you see me share something personal regarding him AND attach my feelings (like I did about him having a disorder/how I feel bad about that): I’m feeling guilty.

            So please, if you see that…feel free to talk me off the guilt ledge, SMH or Kim!😉🥰

            P.S. On throwing water, my Superpower (lol)…he didn’t mind me throwing his plug-in phone (he had a bunch) in the lake. He laughed — but it was still largely the golden period, with a bit of his testing. On throwing water on him: That was on his property, when I heard him humiliating a worker…he was not amused by my “baptism” of him. Um, real ragey look. I split. Longest break-up we ever had. Still not sorry! I’ve also used a hose on guys sexually harassing me. I really do think it’s some weird water thing with me. 🤔

          141. SMH says:

            CIF, I’ll have to have some water handy next time!

            I know you suffer from guilt as we have discussed it before. I think now you recognize it for what it is – your ET. It is not wrong to say ‘this isn’t working for me’ especially if, as you indicate, you would rather have a quality life than a quantity one (I hear you on that). Guilt is also partly what kept me going back. I don’t feel guilty now not because I did not do anything wrong (I did) but because narcs don’t understand guilt. With MRN, at least, anything I said, good or bad, was like water off a duck’s back until I had escaped for good (which at first I did nicely). Then it seemed to matter to him because he had to regain control. Then he paid attention. Then he was wounded. Then the manipulations got worse. I’d say that yours also manipulated you in a worse way after you escaped. Part of that manipulation is the pity me scenario, so you got caught up in his therapy. Don’t feel guilty about not being able to help him. You did do everything you could to help as well as to maintain NC but that guilt is a real weakness with us when we are dealing with narcs.

            I don’t know if you followed my Oyster Man adventures but I also felt guilty about him and contacted him six weeks after whatever we were doing ended. Since he is normal and maybe even an empath, he understood why I contacted him, I apologized for being blunt (I was), explained why it would not work for me, and we had a very nice evening. There is a huge difference between guilt over an empath, which can be resolved, and guilt over a narc, which cannot be resolved.

          142. Caroline-is-fine says:

            So I’m a disaster today…I sprained my ankle (don’t ask, lol), so my man is picking up an Ace bandage for me. I’m not sure if it’s my Tylenol buzz, but while reading your second paragraph, I couldn’t stop giggling…it’s all so insane.They are children – I don’t care what category they are – children, I tell you. And I absolutely adore children…but real children are actually *supposed to be* in childhood.😉

            That was very nice of you, with how you handled Oyster Man. I’ve seen snippets of that convo with Kim, and he really doesn’t sound like a narc…he sounds compulsive, but sweet – almost fragile, in a way. But he absolutely needs boundary lines drawn, so good for you. He will probably learn something worthwhile from how you handled it. He sounds like a nice enough person to have a casual dinner with every few months, if you enjoy conversing. You are spot-on, in how different it is with how a narc reacts to “no” or boundaries…and how a normal or empath does.

            Yeah, my narc knows my weak spots well. That hospitalization thing was so confusing, as one thing he isn’t is whiny/needy/pity-me like. That just isn’t his gig. Everything can be falling apart around him & he would swear he’s rockin’ it bigtime…I think that hospital thing was not so much pity, for attention’s sake…but a means to an end: to get me to fly to him. Yes, he’s that cocky that he can make that happen and charm me in-person. It worked all those times in the FR, so that’s why he thinks so. But no.

            Ok, my “medic” has arrived💜Since the sprain, I’ve been hopping around & almost fell on my ripped-up flooring…if you don’t hear from me in a long time, I also broke my arm.😑 TTFN~

          143. SMH says:


            How’s that ankle doing? Clutzy! Sounds like your narc was actually playing for pity – it just didn’t look like that at the time. He did get you to go to him, which was the objective, same as MRN did pity plays after I escaped and got me to support him as he was quitting his old job and searching for a new one. He did not say ‘woe is me’ – in fact he told me, oddly, not to worry (why would *I* have worried?) – but I did feel like his mother during that period, or like his ‘alt-wife,’ as I would describe myself. Where was she? I don’t know. So yes they were hoovers but they were pity hoovers.

            As for OM, thank you for your kind words. I feel now that he doesn’t really want to see me since I must remind him of failures on the love front, so I don’t want to contact him even though I like hanging out with him.

            I wish I would get a buzz from Tylenol! I am way past that! xo

          144. Caroline-is-fine says:

            “Hop-along” is fine. 😉The ankle is back to normal.
            I didn’t actually go to the narc, so at least I didn’t screw that part up, lol. I’m not convinced it was a pity play — more like straight-up lying (to get me to a specific location). I think there is something a lot darker at play right now, as I can feel it, and I’ve got a very high perceptive/sensing element to my empathic nature, so I trust my gut. So, again, I will just be wise/aware…but I refuse to get labored down into worried feelings, so I keep moving forward fully. Livin’ my best life🙂 Speaking of best…

            You handle everything as best you could with Oyster Man, so that’s all you could do. I know it’s not like you’re sitting around waiting for him to contact you, but he could have more to learn from this, to be able to get to that place of applying it…and if he does integrate what he’s learned more, he could find a way to comfortable friendship with you, without feeling bad. I think so much is about learning the lessons we all need to learn along the way in life — to achieve different (more positive) outcomes. If he doesn’t learn what his lesson is in this case, that’s not for you to take up. I know you know that — just backing you up.🙂

            On ego (your other post)…it’s an interesting thing about narcissistic qualities, which we all do have as Empaths too, to varying degrees. For me, I’ll go introspective on that at times, as a personal check…and try to change narcissistic aspects that don’t serve me (or others, in extension) well. I’m inwardly peaceful/confident, so it can be, at times, hard to tell what is confidence & what is me slipping into “bad pride.” A good sense of pride (which could be called “good self-esteem”) helped me a lot, when I was in the FR — in breaking free — and now does with NC…but then there is real stubborn, bad pride (see Viking Girl), where I try to catch myself, as then I see it going into an area that is of no good use, or just plain wrong (unless in ultimate battle against a narc, but you *must* know how to win, if you go there).

            I think you getting out of your entanglement with the mid-ranger was nothing but healthy & good, on every level. One thing I meant to ask you is (I think) you said to Kim that being an NISS was really awful, and it’d still be good for me to hear your thoughts on that, if you don’t mind sharing. You may have said why & I missed it.🙂

          145. SMH says:

            Hi CIF, Glad your ankle is back to normal. Where is Kim e, anyway? I hope she did not break NC and is too embarrassed to tell us! Kim e, please let us know how you are doing. Miss you!

            Speaking of NC, CIF, in the past 6 weeks, I’ve had 4 private LinkedIn visits and a slew of fake friend requests, including one yesterday, all just when I noticed that IPPS’s IG had changed. You mention being perceptive – MRN would tell me that I was highly perceptive too, and I am, and that also tells me that something is going on. After months and months of nothing, all of this at once is too coincidental. I don’t think of it as something dark but then MRN is not a Greater! Glad you did not go to him. I guess HG could answer what kind of hoover it was. Did you ask him? You can, you know. If he does not answer, you have not lost anything 🙂

            My temptation to break NC has abated. Nothing happened. It simply passed as I knew it would (because it has a million times before). It seems to happen during transitions. They could be simple ones, like busy to not so busy or they could be more complicated (leaving my exLH, which is when I met MRN) or traveling internationally. MRN had a weirdly calming affect on me – like a drug. He was always there – hovering or hoovering, one or the other – no matter what else was going on in my life.

            To your NISS question – I associate being NISS with the worst part of our relationship because that is when I finally blew up and went into ultimate battle. It wasn’t fun at all. I ended up telling MRN that I was afraid of him because he is so cold, that he was a psychopath, etc. I never actually read the email he sent in response to that rant. It is still sitting in the email folder I have for him. It is the only email of his that I ever ignored, I think because I was quite mortified at how brutal I was! It was all very traumatic for me. It is when I found this site.

            I truly did want out, but didn’t want to be mean about it, so at first I was nice. He hoovered incessantly and I responded because I did not know what hoovers were. I thought he needed a friend and I was willing to try. I relaxed somewhat because I didn’t have to behave in the way that he wanted. His emails started like clockwork every few days or so, including on the weekends and in the evenings, which was all new. It was like he was suddenly letting me into his life, just when I didn’t have much interest in being there. He was going through some work transitions and planning to move (all of which I knew before). He did not get one job, he suddenly quit the job he was in, etc. I gave him a lot of support – I was there when he ‘needed’ me. But he would insert sexual innuendo into every conversation, even though that part of our relationship was over (to my mind). I would leave the conversations but he would contact me again and I would respond again.

            About six weeks into this, I was at work and he had been emailing me all day making me decipher cryptic messages. He seemed to be assuming that I had known he was away (I had not known) and was now back. I had a very busy day and on the way home that evening, I teased him that he just wanted attention. He went completely silent. That was fine – I could tell I had wounded him (it is when I became convinced beyond all doubt that he was a narc).

            A few days later, I emailed him, which I had not done for months. I had tendonitis in my foot (speaking of sprained things) and I was home on the sofa in a lot of pain. I was feeling guilty about him, so I sent him a light note, asked him what he had wanted, apologized, and told him about my foot. Well, a friend would have responded. He did not even though he knew I was in pain because I told him! I had responded when he needed me but he did not when I needed him to at least be sympathetic. It was the first ever ST he gave me and I went ballistic. I was shelved all the time in the FR, and he was often curt, but he had never NOT responded to me at all. All bets were then off then, and I went on the warpath. I dissected his psychology and behavior, I told him the real reason I had left the relationship (his behavior, not because it was an affair), etc. I went through every step of my escape and his hoovers, analyzing all of it, down to the ST. Then I got all sweet a few weeks later after he hoovered me again with a private visit to my LinkedIn, because I needed one last thing from him – to delete all of our correspondence in front of me. That was the final battle. I had found HG right after the ST, so I had the benefit of this site by then. But I never told MRN he was a narcissist. Just a psychopath and that he had a personality disorder.

            My feeling is that from our perspective, as NISS the ‘rewards,’ such as they are, are not there whereas all the manipulations still are, so there is no point. From the narc’s perspective (and I picked this up from HG), one never goes from being IPSS to NISS. In retrospect, I can see this now. To MRN, I was still IPSS so my changes in behavior were hard for him to take because he could not control me anymore. He might have thought he could seduce me back into the FR, but I didn’t take the bait. I might have had it gone on but the next and last time I saw him was after he put me through a hellish week and all I wanted was for him to delete those emails so that I could finally cut the damned cord (I used my real email and he used a fake one and didn’t want him to have anything with my name on it). He did it in front of me because by then I had threatened to go to his house and I would have, I was so single-minded about it – my obsessive tendencies went against him rather than to his benefit.

            I feel that the whole time I was an ‘NISS’ it was really just about him trying to regain control of me. Just say NO to NISS! It is impossible.

            As for OM, thank you again for your kind words. I did do my best! He knows about his problem – he told me while it was happening. I asked on several occasions that we take it slow but he did not listen – instead he asked me to travel with him before we had even had our third date. He does deserve someone nice. The thing is that with him he wants women who are complicated, independent, etc but he also wants someone who is needy/needs to be needed. Can’t have it both ways. I guess we are all stuck!


          146. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I have such a weird work day, so I’ve been home for an hour~but am headed back in now, until late…I read your first paragraph & look forward to reading the rest later on🙂…but about Kim…if the past is any indicator, she may be down or slipped up a bit on NC. OR she’s just normal busy…but here’s where I know the empath that I am is not what is likely called for (which makes having different Empaths a wonderful thing), as my inclination is always: “Give her space & time to sort,” but that’s because of how I am/what I want & need, when I need to recharge or work something out.

            But she’s a Geyser, and they often need to open up about things troubling them more, so she may need a Savior Empath to draw her out! 💞I’m concerned if she is okay too…hope she turns up🙂

          147. SMH says:

            CIF, That’s fine. I wrote a lot! Read it at your leisure. I believe I am a savior (haven’t been assessed, however). I just hope I didn’t knock Kim e back with anything I said. If she did slip up, well, we do. She left right around when we were discussing starting over the NC count. I just hope she does not feel that she is back to square one, because it does get easier! I tend to be on here more too when I am not so busy. For me, it is usually relaxing but it can also be triggering, so I do get having to step away.

            Speaking of it getting easier, I watched Surviving R Kelly (everyone on here should watch it). And one of the psychologists said that women leave abusive relationships between 5-7 times (or some surprisingly high number) before they are successful. That was the case with me with MRN (5 times).

          148. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m sure it was nothing that you said. Hope she’s okay though.💚

            That would be a good special to see. And it’s so true, that it often takes several attempts before NC sticks. We learn/re-learn…building strength, with more understanding each time. Life lessons.

          149. SMH says:

            CIF ❤️❤️ (that was a big effort for your big heart – I don’t normally use emojis!)

          150. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, very sweet of you. I try not to use many emojis for those who don’t use them, as I get it’s a tool to relate only *if* it’s how someone else relates (emojis can also bring clarity on intent or emotions, on written communication). I find that if I use a lot of them it’s because whomever I’m interacting with brings out the playful/creative/child-like side of me. 🙂

          151. SMH says:

            CIF, I tried to get MRN to use emojis because his written expression was so flat. He would hardly use punctuation at all, never mind an exclamation point! I think he then used a smiley face once or twice :).

          152. Caroline-is-fine says:

            They really don’t find use in emojis, lol…the only one my narc would use is the sunglass one – you know, ’cause he’s too cool. 😎And only occasionally, when being flirty or well-fueled. He’s the same in writing as HG is, which is probably why I’m used to the flatness/bluntness. He can get more animated, like HG does at times, but only when in the interplay mode/mood.

          153. Kim e says:

            CIF & SMH. mine used gif’s not really ever emojis. Bitch of it is I have come to realize is gifs stay in your photos. So as I am looking at my pictures here comes a stop me dead in my tracks emoji 😒😒😒😩😩😩😩🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃

          154. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Well, now I *know* he’s an annoying bastard, lol… I hate Gifs!

          155. SMH says:

            Kim e and CIF, The only gif I ever sent MRN was post-escape of an infant Trump dressed in a baby bonnet with the words ‘I just want attention.’ That was what broke the camel’s back. I wonder if, like CIF, MRN simply did not like gifs. lol.

            Delete them, Kim-e!

          156. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Too funny, SMH…And yes, delete the gifs, Kim. (Sorry, I’m empathically falling down on the job!)

          157. Kim e says:

            SMH & CIF
            The gifs were deleted one I realized they had saved. One of them was a creepy clown face looking in a window. When he sent it he said “see you in your dreams”………so romantic!!!!!!!!!! I know you two are jealous.

          158. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’m scared of clowns! Seriously, they freak me out. The only clowns I can deal with are circus clowns. I even look away from Ronald McDonald.

            If anyone sent me that gif, they’d be wishin’ they didn’t.

          159. SMH says:

            OMG CIF and Kim e, I am petrified of clowns too! They are all creepy and its a great disguise for a serial killer (John Wayne Gacy). Figures a narc would use a clown gif. Jeez. Kim e, I would have run for the hills. Kidding. I probably would have laughed (laughing now just imagining it).

          160. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Exactly – the serial killer thing.
            Who thinks it’s cute or funny to paint a stark, sickly, frozen smile or frown on your face? Not me. There’s a reason why so many kids cry when they see them…they probably are Empaths.

          161. Kim e says:


            “serial killer (John Wayne Gacy)”…….
            I grew up in DesPlaines the town that he lived in and did all his clown parties in.

            I just had a thought and I know I put it on the board before but it was long time ago so I will tell you know.
            The only gift….I say this with tongue in cheek…….I ever got from W was a garbage can. A big one that the truck actually lifts off the ground to empty. We were talking on the way home from our 2nd date and I mentioned that I needed to go buy one as the town had changed its requirments. He said he had 2 as he bought a smaller one but would give me the big one.
            I am telling you…it saved me 48.00 and I was thrilled!!!! There have been numerous times I have thought about rolling the thing to his driveway and laying it down behind his truck so he doesn t see it when he goes to back out…………….

            Not sure how I could have ever gone NC with such a catch………………sigh……………… 🙂

          162. SMH says:

            Kim e, I thought I responded to this. Maybe I did not? Is Des Plaines where all the bodies were found? If you do put the garbage can behind W’s truck make sure it is full of fake blood or something. Now that would be funny!

          163. Kim e says:

            SMH…..LOL. I have a cat and thought about waiting until summer when I am way off his radar and load it with used cat liter. Gonna start saving now!!!!!!
            Yes. Des Plaines is where he lived. And the bodies were found.
            Clowns never bothered me until I met one that fucked with my mind.

          164. SMH says:

            CIF, Sounds just like MRN. I couldn’t figure out why he would continue to reach out but basically not talk to me. I would Google why is he so curt? On several occasions I mentioned that he seemed like two different people, because he was very talkative and animated in person. He said that I was not the only person who told him that. I think he might have added that some people come to hate him. I can’t remember because I was so stressed out when that conversation happened, but it sounds about right. HG’s bluntness used to trigger me. Their similarities are so weird but I guess they say that about empaths too. lol. It’s like two different species.

          165. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Mine (<Kim's right – we need a different word) is not "animated" in person (socially) either. He's cool charming. Women think he's sexy. Men think he's a man's man. He's popular, but has a segment of people who think he's the devil. He can exude a lot of warmth with me, but it's hard to explain (and I'd rather not try!). I was attracted to his calm, confident demeanor & melty ways. I like that "quiet calm" in a guy — just no more narcs!

          166. SMH says:

            CIF, MRN was super calm too – made me feel drugged! It was just his inconsistency and the push/pull thing that got to me. I felt like a human ping-pong ball. I don’t know how he was socially because we were always alone. Only once – when he wanted to meet my son – would we have been with someone else, but that didn’t happen because my son was asleep the whole time. As for how we refer to them, I give ‘mine’ a name – MRN (mid-range narc) because then I don’t have to say ‘my narc’ or ‘mine.’ Give ‘yours’ a name!

            Why did some people think he was the devil? Curious because MRN said something similar about himself but I did not probe at the time because I was going through a period of very high anxiety with him and I could barely sit down to have a rational conversation. I still remember the scene – me perched on a chair and him on the sofa, listening intently as I tried to explain why he was making me lose my mind. I think we ended up in bed, as always. If we could have just stayed in bed all the time, everything would have been fine – he was most warm and playful there.

          167. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Because he can be very calculating & brutally cold about what he does to achieve what he needs to. He hid this from me in the FR, but I know it all now.

            I’m going to stick with “nex” because it’s what’s best for me…but I’m not going to say “mine,” as I just hate saying that! I don’t mind saying “my nex” though — it’s just factual.

            Did you notice timeframes/events with the push & pull? Also, did he ever bring up his childhood? What did he say about his relationship with his Mom or Dad? I see so much about my nex as being related to how his upbringing affected him. He left home early/got into college early. With him, it’s pretty clear to me now that he had the predisposition (DNA) but his upbringing surely sealed the deal.

          168. SMH says:


            Nex sounds like he could be scary. How did you find out about it??

            MRN was a bit of a bumbler, which is why it was so confusing. He could be really sweet and warm, but then he would be lying or hiding something at the same time, right?

            We never spoke much about our childhoods but I figured out enough to think that he was also predisposed with a problematic upbringing. His siblings seemed to have problems too. I once saw a picture of his father, who was his spitting image, down to the sunglasses and the swagger, which made me think MRN either needed to please or to emulate his father. I think he is a broken person but I don’t see that as an excuse for his behavior.

            The push/pull thing was connected to intimacy in my language but I guess in HG’s it was connected to fuel instincts. Here is an example (a bit long-winded – sorry!):

            Following my fourth escape, I contacted him after six months NC to apologize for something. He responded within seconds. We had a discussion over a day or two about why our relationship kept going into a death spiral. He wanted to see me. I was ambivalent but I let him come over early one morning. Trust, closeness, affection.

            Over the next two weeks he contacted me every day. I was still ambivalent but as soon as *I* initiated contact, his tone changed, I think because he figured he had me. I won’t get into all of the boring details but the second it happened, my decision was made. I wrote him a long ‘break up’ email saying I did not want to be in an affair anymore, which wasn’t the full story. He did not respond and I thought it was over. But then the hoovers started (I had not yet found HG).

            Six weeks later, after many hoovers and me trying to be a supportive friend, I sent that Gif and got a silent treatment. The first one ever. I apologized but also said the punishment was completely out of proportion to the offense.

            Even though I did not hear from him, I decided to tell him the real reason why I wouldn’t go back – the push/pull thing. I laid it all out for him, including that I had watched him for those two weeks and that I had done nothing wrong throughout the whole relationship. It was all him. I then drew a line in the sand – you will NEVER touch me again unless you can show CONSISTENT love and affection. I know he cannot do that so that is my rule for myself in case I am ever tempted again.

            We saw each other once after that (quite a battle, which HG helped me with) because I wanted him to delete our 3000 emails in front of me. I had really given him a lashing the few weeks before and then he was away. While he was away, he creeped my LinkedIn and that is when I realized that I needed those emails gone. They felt like an invisible thread that kept us connected – the last cord that needed to be cut.

          169. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks for your post, and I want to reflect and write more in it. I feel steady and am fine, and I don’t want to talk about this next thing on here, but remember the one thing I didn’t think he knew…well, he knows. I’m ok, no worries, but new ballgame. I was unbelievably calm, & think it’s because I’ve been preparing myself mentally for this. Will get back soon, on your post – probably tonight.

          170. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Good for you. 💜You handled the ending so well…3,000 emails, lordy. I understand now why you are anti-email.
            (I may be quiet for a bit, but I’m fine. I now know what’s on his mind. It’s not malice. Now I can prepare myself in a different way. But I’m eerily calm, even for me. I feel grounded).

          171. Kim e says:

            Check in when finished with your “mission”. Take care and be careful. I of course have no idea what is going on but you do and that is all I need to know

          172. SMH says:

            Ditto CIF! I don’t have any idea either but let us know and stay grounded!

          173. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, women❤
            (Quick recap: He’s back, full-force, with his gentle/respectful/charming “win my girl” pre-FR & breakup/makeup mode, which isn’t any better than malice for my situation…proves you can’t fully gauge it, as I anticipated he’d go dark. I knew something was coming though – I felt it. Maybe it’s why I am so calm. Anyway, I’m taking stock…and yes, he broke my NC, in a big way).

            Please go on, as per usual, with what’s up with you guys.❤ CIF is…well, fine.🙂 Pretty efficient of me to name myself that. Ha.

          174. Caroline-is-fine says:

            My mission (so to speak) is done, in that I have given up…which is exactly what I needed to do in this situation, for my peace. He is on his own mission, and I can’t control that. I’ve done as much NC as I am willing to do for my life, and I trust I will handle anything else fine, as it comes. I have zero doubt he’ll be back. Will the hoovers never end? Possibly, but there is a timeframe with them, and I will deal. I feel calm…I know I keep saying that, but something way deeper has happened with me, in a good way. I am also relieved, as I have thought more about what I know now, and what it all means. I don’t think he’s going to harm me. I’m about 98% sure of that (I only hold out the 2% because I am naturally self-protective). I have a small concern (not nearly as big as what it was) that he may go after other people in my life, but that has lowered considerably. He’s an UMR. It’s clear to me that him believing he is a narcissist comes & goes. But there is no way he is a Greater, as he’s completely convinced he loves me (which makes me sad/that was a tough by-product of the Hoover, but at least my guilt didn’t turn up). It is now crystal clear to me that he 100% believes he’s driven by love. And with that, my tug-of-war over Greater v. UpperMid, which has been ongoing this entire time (with all the similarities that concerned me most/first trying to convince myself he was an UMR, but then fearful he was not & that I may be in physical danger if I kept thinking that) is — finally — over. So much was revealed with this Hoover, and it is the one thing I can be very grateful for…just in time for Thanksgiving. It took some time, but I got myself where I needed to, and this is always how I find my own peace.

            So pass the turkey & cranberries.🙂

          175. SMH says:

            CIF, That’s quite a revelation. I think it changes a lot of what we have discussed. I take it you mean he is not malignantly plotting and planning? How do you interpret it? That he is deluded? Thinks he loves you but doesn’t know what love is?

            Please don’t fall for it – knowing he is a mid-ranger requires a whole different sort of analysis. He won’t physically harm you but the manipulations are incredibly insidious. Periodically I would briefly imagine that MRN and I were completely misunderstanding each other. I know it was ridiculous but I was so defensive with him, largely because of the situation, that I’d think I was missing the ‘driven by love’ signals. Right before my final escape I even said, ‘I think we are in love with each other and that is why we can’t leave each other.’ I walked it back to ‘we love things about each other’ but I think it is too easy to fall into a trap that my LT tells me was not true. Driven by love is just another form of manipulation/a pity hoover.

            It is VERY clear to me because months earlier I had said to him, ‘if you love IPPS you should try to make it work.’ I saw a light bulb go off in his head and I thought he loved IPPS and was going to try to make it work. He even promised to be ‘the best person’ for her that he could be. I went NC for six months. But he was hoovering me the whole time and wanted me back once he had gotten IPPS to believe that he was ‘driven by love.’ She even said when we emailed that they were ‘happy’ those six months whereas I could tell from IG that he was bored and disengaged. How is it that I was able to read him better than she could? Now I understand that she is a love devotee, which I am not, was lulled into complacency, which was his objective, and her ET clouded her thinking. It all sort of disappointed me. I wanted him to love IPPS because I wanted the confusion/limbo cleared up so I could move on.

            I wonder what HG makes of all of this love stuff. We are all confused by it – at least I am – but narcs are not able to love, so what is it that they actually feel? HG, if you care to weigh in?

            In any case, glad you made it through, CIF, and do not fear him anymore. Funny but it is only now that I sense your anxiety. You put on a very cheerful exterior (not meant as a criticism) but I see now that this is your self-protection. Hope you really are okay. xo

          176. HG Tudor says:

            The effects of fuel as explained previously.

          177. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I see HG’s reply, but not yours to me (I only see the beginning of yours, since he replied to your comment for me). I’m off to church, like the angelic girl I am (🤔). I’ll be back later today to go through the thread, to find your comment (yes, I shall scroll through the entire 300-400+ comments to find it – that’s how great my love is for you🤗)…for some reason, your reply didn’t go to my inbox.

          178. SMH says:

            CIF, I use the search function on my browser. Opens a little search thing at the bottom of the screen and takes me to whatever I am looking for, though sometimes I have to scroll through a few pages of posts. Since you are going to church, you should search on ‘that’s quite a revelation.’ Will take you to my comment :). Smooches.

          179. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I found your other comment! But I can’t get a reply button for it, so I went to this comment of yours instead…

            I’m not sure how to definitively answer the “plotting” part, as it’s obvious to me that he has calculation on some things — I mean, it took calculated planning for him to find me, and he also had to manipulate someone else to find out I’m with someone (yeah – not good). I also do know (from others) the calculated things he’s done, while climbing the ladder of success (malign stuff). There are, however, many valid, logical reasons why I don’t think he will harm me. I can talk more about that, if you’re concerned. ❤

            As for me falling for anything, no worries – I’m not. I see it clearly. As for my personality (how I feel/handle things), I’m the type who – under adversity – puts on a brave face until I am actually brave, but I do gain strength in working it through…I’m pretty good at summoning courage, and I do have a lot of inner strength to draw from, so that helps with this…I truly have been joyful, but about a month ago, I had such an incredibly strong vibe he found out where I live. I couldn’t shake the feeling, and I started getting really nauseated at times, just thinking about it (I can get like that when I’m unnerved)…so, ever since, I’ve been looking over my shoulder in my home environment. It really was like I knew he was coming.

            If he keeps turning up…the biggest concern I will have is his jealousy, which has always been the hardest thing for me to handle. That could get aimed at someone else. I don’t want to be naïve. I am going away for work again this week, and I’m going to spend a lot of time thinking about my guy, on how to handle that aspect…to say or not to say – that is the question.

          180. SMH says:

            Got it, HG. I guess I meant to ask what the effects of fuel feel like as I know love is about fueling up. I imagine your answer to be a surge of power when the narc’s victim professes love. But when the narc professes love for his victim, what is he feeling? Nothing? Power? It’s only powerful if you know it matters to the other person. If it doesn’t matter to them, it’s not a very effective way of gaining fuel. In fact, you’d be leaving yourself vulnerable to a wounding.

          181. HG Tudor says:

            He feels the powering effect of fuel, but believes that it is love. It is not, SMH.

          182. SMH says:

            Understood. I forgot the ‘believing’ part.

          183. Kim e says:

            CIF… OK then. As long as you are at peace with it that is all that matters. You are correct in as much as we can not control N’s, we especially can not control their hoovers.
            Dont forget the smashed pots… as my youngest called them……with lots of butter. CHEERS!!!

          184. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It may be “stupid peace” (lol) but I’m at peace…it’s actually pretty hard to rock my inner peace — not for long anyway. I guard it fiercely, if needs be. The reason I’m so joyful is *because* of my peace. However, my peace *can* be disturbed, if this turns into a gnarly mess involving others, but I don’t believe this will. I have no facts to give you on *why* it won’t, but I just believe it will be okay, like I have faith it will…I don’t know how it objectively looks from the outside, looking in (probably not great), but I’m just not feeling tense about it. So if someone reading this is thinking: “Gawd, Caroline – you’re a clueless wonder — you might as well dig your own grave in your backyard, because you’re super screwed,” I’m not anywhere near thinking like that…I just don’t have that type of feeling about it.

            There’s a part of me that is always pretty damn calm – I don’t rattle too easily, unless it’s a justice-type issue (then I can get downright freaking ragey!)…but there’s another part of me that will problem solve a bit to get myself out of stuff, but not crazy over-thinking it — then I’ll just drop it & let it flow. I have a mix of qualities (maybe empath qualities) that seem to level me out, so that helps, with this. I deeply care about people, but I also know how to set boundaries. I’m not long-suffering, when it comes to someone taking advantage of me — I will absolutely tap out. If someone is starting to really disturb my peace, that’s my ass you see — leaving.

            When it comes down to it, his NPD is not my responsibility, and I get this. I’m very sorry he has it, but there’s just nothing I can do about it. He’ll do what he will, but he won’t imprison me with it, within my spirit (physically containing me in a dungeon is still possible, lol)…he can’t change who I innately am, and that is where I go to get my peace: inside. I don’t seek it outside myself. What can he really do to me then? He’s actually more screwed in this than I am.

            I’m not even mad at him for this latest stunt, as he’s just being a narcissist. I have a lot of hope for people to overcome their issues — just like I’ve had to overcome tragedies in my own life — but not if they have no will to. In his case, I realize it’s because of his disorder that he can’t take a new route. But I won’t let that drain my own energy. There’s no way I will let that happen. I have way too much I need to do in life, and things that I value…things important to my heart.

            Enough seriousness.

            Ok, um…why am I eating potatoes again? Lol

          185. Kim e says:

            SMH. Yep. Drugged and under water. When I was a candidate I never heard from him on weekends. But the manipulation was still there. I would go to my friends house and some times after only being there 45 minutes I was be “ I have to go home”. Once I got home I was ok but that was the pull of the you are going to have no friends or go anywhere without me manipulation.

          186. SMH says:

            Kim e, I know what you mean – so much waiting around, not being able to focus, wanting to be in the space where we could be ‘together’ (even virtually). I would feel glued to my phone or computer on weekdays but I would also relish telling him what I had done while he was at home in the evenings and on weekends. I NEVER asked what he did. I once apologized to him for never asking, telling him that he really did not exist for me evenings and weekends. He said ‘I think about you when we are apart.’ I said ‘I know you do.’ I can be pretty twisted too – the whole thing was like operating without an ounce of honesty – constant mind games. So, so stressful for an empath!

          187. Kim e says:

            CIF & SMH
            Describes him to a tee. Sexy as hell, walks with the confidence of a king, thighs to die for (sorry I digress) the total package. He is a good communicator in person but better in text. Gotta stop….ET coming up…pardon the expression……but those thighs….sigh……ROFLMAO

          188. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ugh, that description was bad timing – sorry about that post. I know you’re being light-hearted about it, but I’m not gonna trip your ET. However, it gives me an opportunity to share…

            So I read something (research, not bogus crap) about what to do if you get stuck on an unwanted thought. So you extend the thought out to what comes to mind — out to five. It’s word association, in other words — and it lessens the emotion of the first thought, so you can move your mind along.

            I’ll do it, to show you. So your last thought was “thighs”…now you pop off your next thought with a word, until you get to five-out from the original word. This is how mine went, using your “thighs” word:

            1) thighs
            2) KFC
            3) Greasy
            4) grills
            5) summertime

            Yep…that’s how CIF’s thinking went. You do it quickly — don’t dwell on what comes to mind next. They say it’s pretty darn effective. You can move it out to 10, if that’s more effective.

          189. SMH says:

            That’s hysterical, CIF. I know you put KFC but I would have put chicken, though maybe it would have led me to cock?

            MRN is sexy too. However, I am sexier. hahaha.

          190. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Of course you’re sexier – you’re an Empath for God’s sake❣🤸‍♀️

          191. Kim e says:

            CIF……I love KFC and his thighs were like no other I had ever seen.
            But…thanks for the examples……..ROFLMAO!!!!!

          192. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I hate that I can’t see your comment when I reply~hope I don’t forget anything…

            The LinkedIn/friend request pattern does sound pretty doggone suspicious.🧐 I bet you’re right about that~someone trying to stir something up, hmmm? Stop that, Mr. Mid-Ranger.😑

            You explained the situation well, about the NISS stint. Thanks.🙂 Yeah, that sounds very much like he wasn’t thinking any differently than when you were IPSS…just another ploy to get you situated back in the same spot. I like that there was that tipping point you had during your physical problem, in that you felt hurt/anger at not being treated like a real friend would treat you. It’s always the authentic (how a true friend acts) that makes us realize how truly “off” the narc situation is…but when you’re in it, it’s like you get desensitized to the abnormal (salami slicing effect). It’s weird, because during the FR with my ex, I never, the entire 3 years, saw him treat his close friends poorly…so when I was thinking that being an NISS would get me out of the fix I was in, that’s what I was thinking of — hey, give me some of that friendship goodness with none of the bad crap — wrap it up/problem solved! But no worries…he made it abundantly clear that there would be none of that benign friendship stuff for me. I must suffer.😬 I cannot believe that out of this entire experience I only felt really hurt that he didn’t find it amazingly valuable to have me as a friend. That’s so goofy! Well, maybe it’s more that I was irritated that I couldn’t get him to go in a direction that would get me off the hook & let me feel the peace. Yeah, that sounds about right.

            High-fiving you for getting the emails deleted.🙋‍♀️ No telling what would happen with your name on stuff, so good for you to get that done.

          193. SMH says:


            Whenever I can’t see the whole comment I click on comments and open another tab so I can read it. But I use this site on my email and I don’t know how it works otherwise.

            Once again you nailed it. Who wouldn’t want to have ME as a friend? lol.

            The thing is, I did not reach out to be MRN’s friend. He did (well, I thought he was). I was never around his friends but judging by his ‘followers’ on IG, he didn’t have many and since he rarely responded to any comments on IG, I am guessing that he is the same with them as he was with me. But again he is not a Greater. My exHL had ZERO friends, and I mean zero. He turned out to be the biggest vampire I have ever encountered. He needed all of his social, psychological, financial and emotional support from me. He wore a mask with my family but not with my friends, several of whom witnessed his behavior, including being on the receiving end of it. Having no friends should have been a huge red flag – now it is. If you don’t have friends, don’t come near me.

            Last night I discovered that I also have a filtered FB message that FB removed because it couldn’t verify the user’s identity. That is the second one that I have received the past year. I have to wonder again if it is MRN using one of his fake profiles.

            Hope you have a good day today! xo

          194. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Your ex-HL was probably very jealous of your friends, eh? Does he hoover you at all now?

            I can understand how FB stuff would get you wondering. I bet your gut tells you what’s up most of the time. Exes of any kind are going to creep that. I’ve never had FB, Instagram, Snapchat,Twitter, anything (for a few good reasons)…some family & friends get frustrated by that, but it ain’t happenin’ ! (I’m peer group pressure immune — but not narc guilt immune😕). The other day, one of my guy friends called and said: “Why didn’t you text me back?” I told him he must have bumped his head really hard because my text is always disabled – did he forget? He sighed & said, “You’re just a freak of nature, Caroline.”

            Hmm, sensing he sees my inner freak as a bad thing…🤔😑

          195. SMH says:

            Haha that’s funny CIF, that you are so old skool! Good for you! If you have few things to ‘block’ there is much less to get a handle on. From now on, no email if you want to date me. Phone calls and texts only (I don’t mind texts because they have to be brief and to the point).

            ExHL did try to isolate me from my friends during the FR. That is why he’d be rude to them or ruin whatever event we went to or pick a fight and walk away from me when we were going somewhere. He hoovered a lot at first (malign) but on the advice of a friend I told him he was bullying/harassing me, a legal offense in the UK (this all happened in the UK). He then stopped. We have not seen each other for more than three years. The last time he hoovered was last year. He sent me a long whiny email and I told him – having found HG by then – that he was narcissistic. Then I stole the only thing he desperately wanted back. I paid to ship it to the USA!!

            As for FB, I can usually distinguish between MRN and other FB crap but sometimes I cannot. In this case it is the timing of it all. Nothing had happened for months, then the IG pattern changed, there were four LI visits and now the FB friend requests and messages, all within a matter of weeks. MRN always had hoover patterns. They are now what I call ‘bursts’ – a flurry of activity instead of regularly timed activity and long silences instead of a brief pause. It makes sense because in the past he would be anticipating contact and keeping me hooked, but now I am not ‘there’ and I don’t respond. I can only be entering the sixth sphere. If he occasionally thinks about me and then forgets about me, the hoover ‘burst’ pattern makes sense.

          196. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Lol – it’s true, I have aspects to me that have always been “old school.” Then on the other hand, I can be pretty unconventional, in specific areas. I’m an “old soul” – but can also be very childlike (not to be confused by childish, puh-leeze!😉).

            That’s interesting, about email being “out” for you. It’s good you so clearly see what can become a problem; that’s half the battle. I have several email addresses, but some are dummy accounts, for protection/privacy. I have an intense need for privacy, which if you knew me in RL would seem pretty odd, as I’m pretty go-with-the-flow & very social, unless really drained. But I fiercely protect my privacy, for several reasons. I don’t text because it would overwhelm me, to be continually getting stuff/replying, and it would be too much of a distractor. So I like the slower pace of email or calls…and I feel free to get back with someone when I can. I am someone who, if I turned my phone on & it kept pinging visually or audibly with texts, I would go set it on fire or throw it in a body of water.😳

            It’s also interesting about your Lesser. Do you think it’s Lessers who mainly pick fights/engage in a set-up before an event? My nex never did that “fight beforehand” thing. Or not big enough that I recall it. What he did do is cause unnecessary problems/tensions between us while *at* an event, so we’d end up in some intense fight by the time we left…then we’d make up (sexual), and that was a big pattern. Another pattern was if I ever went away on travel for work, he’d act SO chillingly frosty freeze when I got back — like he was totally pissed. I think that was related to some sort of possessiveness, but I’m really not sure. I am not a “What’s the matter?” questioner. Instead, I will observe, or do more subtle trial-and-error. I mean, I will ask that question with friends — but not of guys, while in a relationship. It’s almost like I sense it’d be acting needy, and I shun that. That was a secret complaint of my ex about me (which took me quite awhile to figure out) — that I didn’t question him. They really are exhausting, with the gameplay.

            I was going to ask you something else about your reply, but it flew out of my mind. I’ll come back if I recall!

          197. SMH says:


            ExHL would do the things you describe too – cause problems at events, get cold and angry when I was traveling. Eventually, my temper was so short with him that I wouldn’t even try to resolve things anymore. I left him multiple times too, though it wasn’t stated the way it was with MRN. They are the only two men I have ever left and returned to, and it makes sense in that light that they are both narcs, just of different sorts.

            MRN wouldn’t get cold when I was gone (often for months at a time) but he would get touchy if, say, he emailed me and I was on my way out or somewhere where he would have liked to be and my attention was not on him. It was more jealousy than possessiveness, I’d say, and that might have been the case with your Greater too. Jealousy that your attention was not on him. Complete inability to be happy for someone else who might be enjoying themselves. Did he ever ask how your work trips went? Did he listen when you told him?

            As for email, I have four or five accounts but I only regularly use 3. My work email can be overwhelming and I like to have an empty inbox, so you can imagine how stressful it can get. I don’t find it slow and languid at all, especially after MRN. OM also liked to email but in his case it was so he could unload everything that he was thinking about on me. He emailed me something like 40 times in two weeks, including when I was away on a boat. So yeah, I hate email! 🙂

            I have two phones and I keep them both on mute, always. If I happen to be looking at one and something comes in then of course I will see it, but otherwise I can pretty much ignore until I am ready to respond. I don’t have any mobile data on either phone right now either so when I go out you gotta text or call or I won’t know a thing unless I happen to come across some free wifi! So I can be a bit old school that way too :).

          198. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yah! Kim is back & doing fine…so we were concerned for nothing. She’s rockin’ it 🙂(Hi, Kim❤…You have made so much progress – proud of ya, woman.🤸‍♀️)

            That’s an interesting question you asked, about the narc listening about my work. I get excited about my work, but I am one to summarize or hit main points on it, when asked — so he had a good attention span on it & seemed interested. I have 2 totally separate careers (one is seasonal). So he totally encouraged one – he loves that one. He sometimes ignored aspects of the other one, and I think that one is because he saw it, like you said, as taking attention away from him (& control issues)…while the first one worked in his favor. However, both he used(façade) in talking to other people about what I do.

          199. Kim e says:

            CIF & SMH. Aawww. Sorry to hear you were worried. Thanks for caring. I told “dad” what was up in case someone inquired. ❤️❤️❤️❤️

          200. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It’s okay.💚 I’m sure if SMH & I started ramping up by saying things like:

            “OMG!! WTH happened to Kim??”
            “Holy crap! Something is super wrong now!”
            “She’s probably super depressed or in terrible danger!!”

            *Then* HG would have summoned up every bit of reassurance he could muster for us — stretching himself beyond imagination, in only the way he can provide an abundance of support & comfort — to say to us…

            🗣”She’s fine.”


          201. SMH says:

            lol CIF. I would hope so, or maybe he would have just let us fret.

          202. Kim e says:

            Perfect description. I am rolling here as I can picture HG saying “logic says she is an adult and is fine biut these 2 empaths just wont leave it alone so I guess I must step in….YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!”

            Missed you too HG

          203. SMH says:

            Kim e, Dad did not pass the message on!

          204. Kim e says:

            SMH…Forgive dad. He has a lot of empaths to deal with along with his normal every day manipulations. And he is not getting any younger…….

          205. SMH says:

            lol Kim e, don’t remind dad that he is not getting any younger. He is in good company but he doesn’t care about company.

          206. SMH says:

            CIF, MRN also got some character traits (if that is the correct phrase) out of what I do. He could even be supportive. The problem was only when it took away from my attention on him or, worse, when I started something (also kind of a side job that fell in my lap) that is in the field he was trained for and which he left for an industry job, of course to make tons more money. When that happened, I was SO excited to tell him and I wanted his input/guidance. He should have been very interested just on an objective basis, but I think he was a tad jealous. He could have been doing something much more interesting but he chose a different path, which I called his ‘gilded cage.’ I did get him to quit his job – I even did the financial calculation for him – you can do this, I said. But he moved on to something similar. The last time I saw his IG (eons ago now), he was going somewhere that made my heart sink because I knew exactly what he was doing there. Maybe had I been IPPS things would have been different in this respect (he could have used the character traits) but as I was not, they didn’t really matter to him. They were just one more part of me that he could pretend to ignore.

          207. Caroline-is-fine says:

            OMG! — delayed reaction. I didn’t mean “debrief” in a dirty sense…I meant it like talking to myself, if I felt any fallout, as in sensitivity because of my nex-BF. Yeah, I’m leaving now.

          208. SMH says:

            CIF, I think a lot of women here debrief after they have interacted with HG 🙂

          209. Kim e says:

            I believe my fearless leader HG….or maybe it was NA…told me that for us to escape it really means nothing to them because it was not their idea. If they disengage it is a different story. That is why when we go NC…whether it is for 3 hours or 3 months, when contact is made in the N’s mind, nothing has changed…..and they can just carry on from where it left off.
            Wounding is slight as it was not done face to face. I am sure a compliment or to from the can opener will soothe the pain…LOL

          210. SMH says:

            Kim e, It got worse after the wounding because I got terribly angry end went on the warpath. Most of it was not face to face but the very end was. At that point, he deflected and blame shifted. I think he turned things around so that he could believe that it WAS his idea. His narcissism wouldn’t have allowed him to admit that it was mine. By that time, in any case, things were so twisted that there was no hope of untwisting them.

            But you are correct that every time I went NC and returned it was like nothing had happened. We wouldn’t even discuss what we had done during the month or six months or whatever. I could see that scenario again were I to reach out. Him: how are you? Me: fine thanks, how about you? Him: fine. Where are you? Me: wherever. Where are you? Him: wherever. Me: Did you miss me? Him: Were you gone? Jk about that last set but it was like that except for the time he asked ‘where are you?’ 3 hours after I landed, when he knew the exact day and time of my arrival.

            You have to watch Dr Foster!! I think HG must consult on all of these British psychodramas using the info he gets here as well as his own knowledge. I suspect that is why I see the same relatable story playing out over an over.

          211. HG Tudor says:

            Damn, rumbled.

          212. SMH says:


          213. Kim e says:

            My world is a Netflix show!!! Yesterday on the way home on the train, my vertigo kicked in. Wasnt really bad but I cancelled my workout and went home. There was an Amazon package at my front door. Strange I say to me. I got my order yesterday. I felt crappy so just put it on the counter and hit the couch. After about 45 minutes I felt better, not normal but better …(stop laughing). I opened the package and it was the amino acids (BCA) that I drink after a work out…the exact brand that I buy. But I had not bought it.
            Thinking I had lost it completely, I checked my orders on Amazon and did not find it. Check any subscriptions that I had set up for recurring shipments and found none. No gift card in the envelope. I call Amazon. They have no record of the order not can they find anything thur the UPS tracking number. “You can keep it, throw it away, donate it….you will not be charged as we do not show youa s ordering it.
            WELL>>>>at this time my ET and LT have joined forces to make me completely looney. I hear HG in one ear saying “logical thinking says your N did not send this. If cost money and he is not going to spend the money. It was a mistake on Amazons part”>
            My ET devile is telling me…”WTF. Who else would know this is the EXACT stuff I drink. I have snet stuff to my kids at their address and my name does not appear anywhere. They only know it is from me because I told them. Is it the N? Dont be stupid. Listen to LT…..but it is such a strange coincident………”
            About this time my head exploded, I out on Person of Interest and had an ice cream bar.
            Today…….well I am still better but not normal. OMG.
            I will watch Dr Foster after I am done with Person of Interest. Promise. I have they have netflix in the looney bin as that is where I am headed.

          214. SMH says:

            lol Kim e, Netflix in the loony bin. I tend to agree with HG and think it was an Amazon mix up especially if you order it often. You ask who else would know? Well, Amazon knows. Maybe you asked Alexa and don’t remember? (Hahaha, I won’t have one of those things in my house but there’s a great meme going around – Alexa, Impeach Trump.) Don’t let it get to you. You could interpret just about anything as being a ‘message’ from the N. I forgot that I have 3 fake friend requests at the moment. You will forget about this too.

          215. Kim e says:

            I reread what I wrote and forgot one important bit of information. I get that kind BUT I do not order it from Amazon. I order from Walmart!!!!!
            The bottle it comes in sits out on my kitchen counter next to my protein mix as I used themboth daily.
            Makes it a whole lot stranger…HUH!!!????

          216. SMH says:

            Kim e, That does make it stranger but but but…it’s not him. You ordered it from Amazon in your sleep, then canceled it, but they sent it anyway??!!

          217. Kim e says:

            SMH…….OK???!!!!????? LOL
            I threw it in the garbage even tho it was sealed shut…….

          218. SMH says:

            Kim e, Do you think he poisoned it? 🙂

          219. Kim e says:

            LOL….I just could not bring myself to keep it.

          220. SMH says:

            Kim e, You shouldn’t keep anything that reminds you of him, poisoned or not.

          221. Kim e says:

            SMH…I gotta get over the hump where I always go back. I know HG says it is all instinct with MRN but his instinct must tell him that I am good for this period of time and then I undo NC. I need to get past that point.
            Just thinking out loud. Thanks for the sounding board.

          222. SMH says:

            Kim e, I sometimes wonder about that instinct too. My longest NC was six months. Two were one month each, one was two months, and one was three weeks. It has now been 18 months. But I guess part of the pattern is also who would normally break NC. In my case, I normally would so if I don’t, I highly doubt he will. Just get over the hump (in my case, it would have been six months) and things will improve.

          223. Kim e says:

            So bizarre and kinda scary that after 18 months you can tell me with percision how long each of your NC’s were!!!! And each one of those NC’s was done by me. And yes…it was always me that broke NC……..not by contacting him but by opening the door for whenever he wanted to walk back in it. Not sure as his reality is different then mine (SURPRISE) but the last 2 or 3 times I went NC was like right after we had seen each other and had a nice time or after a lot of communication between us to where things seemed peachy. Wonder what he thinks about the timing? Or does it not phase him at all….LOL
            A normal guy would be like,,,,”this bitch is nuts…WTH….we we doing great”

          224. SMH says:

            Kim e, lol. Yes, it is etched in my brain as if it were all yesterday (or many yesterdays).

            Have you watched Dr Foster? Two seasons on Netflix. It is like that! Is she the crazy one or is he? Jodie Comer is in it – she also played the psycho in Killing Eve (or was Eve the psycho?) And then there is The Fall – is the detective the psycho or is the serial killer the psycho? I watched The Fall way back when I was involved with MRN. It was during a moment in that series that the light bulb suddenly went on in my head. Oh duh. He is like a serial killer and I am like the detective with the dark side.

            One thing I know for sure is that we are all crazy or we wouldn’t be on here! Wear it like a badge :).

          225. Kim e says:

            F’g A…I earned every bit of it my badge!!!!!
            I just added Dr. Foster to my list on Netflix. I found The Fall on Prime Video from amazon but there are quite a few of them. Do you have Prime videos’? If so which one is it? If not is it a movie? A series? Always looking for good stuff to watch

          226. SMH says:

            Kim e, The Fall is on Netflix too. It’s a British series set in Northern Ireland. Brits do these well! I wonder why. Haha. I earned my badge too. As I said to MRN: I slept with a psychopath!! Notch in belt.

          227. Kim e says:

            Strange…I can not fine The Fall on my Netflix. Only titles related to.
            But I do see it on Amazon so I will watch it there. Is Gillian Anderson in it?

          228. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes Gillian Anderson stars in it. Maybe it isn’t on Netflix anymore? But still, if you can watch it, do.

          229. Kim e says:

            SMH. The Fall is on Netflix if Gillian is in it. There are a lot of The Fall on Netflix. Just wanted to make sure I got the right one. Tally ho

          230. SMH says:

            Kim e, Great. Watch Dr Foster first. It’s shorter and fresher in my head! Tally Ho yourself !!

          231. Kim e says:

            SMH….ET Very high today….just about unblocked before I decided to type to you. GGGGGRRRRRR……..this sucks…so many ups and downs….it is around my give in time again…….I am trying……..

          232. SMH says:

            Kim e, Was going to say the same – my ET has been high today too. No idea why – I think I am not as busy and my mind drifts. I had all these visions of MRN ‘happy’ with someone else (no idea who the someone else was but it wasn’t IPPS). It does suck but I am making a conscious decision to drift my mind to married work gigolo instead :). Anyone else in your sights?

          233. Kim e says:

            Married work gigolo…..sounds yummy…….lol
            I have to get HIM out of my brain first to make room for anyone else.
            Every day as I walk to the train I have to remember that I parked at the new lot today and which train car to get on.The old lot was the 3rd form the front…the new is the 3rd car fromthe back. Then I have to remember once I am on the train to remember to get off one stop before I used to. then when I get off the train I have to remember which side of the tracks I had to park on….thru the parking lot or in the pedestrain tunnel to my car. My brain hurts.
            I came to a relazation today…..How to describe…….
            I would unblock him if I knew for sure that it would always be ME that leaves. The thought of him disengaging really upsets maybe because I was diengaged and deleted before. Off the wall as that sounds if he is going to hoover he is going to hoover no mater who ended it.
            I am so paranoid at this point that I do not go out and walk my 45 minutes at lunch for fear I will run into him. Electronically if he could get a hoover thru I would be fine. BUT if it was a physical hoover, I would fail miserably. I deflect these thoughts by telling myself he is too afraid to hoover me in person and I really was not that important in the matrix. Especailly since obviously he has an issue controlling me. ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!
            Facial tonight. Hair cut, movie and drinks tomorrow.
            I am also like you…I am bored…need something to happen

          234. SMH says:

            Kim e, The way you are talking about someone disengaging, either you or him, should make you (us) realize how abnormal the whole thing is. Even as IPSS, one should not have to face that risk every day. MRN only disengaged once BUT I always THOUGHT he was disengaging when in reality I was being shelved. That is what causes a lot of the anxiety. Intermittent reinforcement can really mess a person up. MRN never understood it. He saw it as me trying to control him. Enjoy your hair cut, movie and drinks, and not thinking about the train station tomorrow. Go for a long walk, since you can’t during the week .

          235. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yes, 1,000 times, on intermittent reinforcement — or hot/cold behavior. All research shows this is the most damaging treatment, psychologically. We all know people can have moods or get busy, or have other valid reasons to not be responding or aloof, etc., and it’s *not* always a deliberate, manipulative tactic…but if there is one thing I ping on with people, it is this behavior. When I see it, I am way cautious, until I have time to see a pattern (or not) in them. Intermittent reinforcement makes the strongest of people feel weak and desperate for approval — it’s highly effective.

            In every way, I back WAY up if I feel someone non-responsive after being particularly responsive to me. Here’s an example that I don’t *think* HG will mind, as I am putting it in proper context.

            On the site, if I ask HG a question or comment to him directly and he’s friendly-like and answers back…but then the next time I do (I don’t directly engage him too often), and if he doesn’t answer at all, I back way off any engagement with him for a lengthy time — *not” because I expect him to always answer me (I don’t feel entitled), nor is it because I think he’s giving me a silent treatment (in fact, I give myself very logical reasons as to why I got no answer)…I back way off strictly because of how it makes me feel (not good at all, which tells me it reminds me of past treatment). So I am just aware of this, and I try not to set myself up to feel that way; it’s a vulnerability of mine, so I do what is best for me.

          236. SMH says:


            Hot/cold behavior was the first thing I ever looked up regarding MRN!! No one had ever done that to me before so I had no idea what it was. I don’t remember how I found it but ’emotional unavailability’ came up a lot and thus began my journey. Of course I only got bad advice from the interwebs until I found HG. Now that I know what it is, I don’t tolerate it either. Guy I was dating a year ago this time did it too and I called him on it and then left. Again for me the problem with MRN was the lack of continuous reinforcement, not his emotional shallowness. It is one of the things that I asked him to stop doing when the affair part began, and he did stop for awhile – about a month. But he could not sustain it because to him it meant that we were in contact every day but that’s not what it is about and of course I couldn’t explain it.

            HG used to trigger me too for other reasons (bluntness for example) so I think that trigger will pass for you too eventually. I did once ask early on why something was still in moderation but I don’t think I’ve done that for a long time now. If HG doesn’t answer, I might ask again. I see how many people are on this site and I try not to ask too much unless there is something that really fascinates me, including about HG himself (he often does not answer those questions and I don’t ask those again). I also now have a lot of the answers to the Qs I used to have. The only thing that occasionally triggers me now is when HG leaves without telling us (shelving). I think that was the last ‘argument’ I had with him and that was awhile ago too.

            So all of this is by way of saying that I totally understand but it will pass as your ET calms down. I’m not going to say as you get your ET ‘under control’ because I don’t think that’s entirely how it happens. You can’t will your ET to die. I think it is at least partly connected to hormones which are triggered by behaviors, including stress and lack of sleep (as I just mentioned to Kim e). So getting mentally healthy means taking care of your body too. The body will take care of the mind. I am fascinated by things like a possible connection between gut bacteria and autism…

          237. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I remember that thread, about you being mad about “no prior warning,” lol. I think I was involved in expressing HG’s side of things, while also understanding why it upset you. The end result was pretty good. HG always reigns on-site, but with a measure of benevolence, when he so chooses.🕊

            I 100% agree with you, on physical fitness being super important to mental (and emotional) health. I wouldn’t be my fully joyful self without swimming. Again, with the water.😉 I am active in dance, horseback riding and biking too, but I swim every day in the summer — & usually 3-4 days the rest of the year. Oh, & for sure~there’s significant research to indicate the autism/gut link.

            It sounds better to say it’s my ET, on the HG question thing with me…but upon deeper reflection, it may actually be worse…it may be a narcissistic quality of mine (cringe), because I have a goal to get my question answered (to win) — & I don’t want to be set up (to lose). Maybe that is why it feels bad. Ugh, that’s not good…I do not think I will ask him another question, ever, unless I need a consult. 😑

            Well, I’ve got myself bandaged up & am feeling pretty darn secure in my ankle boots, for a late-afternoon meeting. Have a most beautiful fall day, SMH & Kim~Get out there & kick up some leaves🍂🍁

          238. SMH says:


            It is not a bad thing to have narc qualities. I have them too but I am proud of them :). Mine are part of the reason why I told MRN that I was fine as IPSS. I did not want to lose so I refused to enter into a battle. I didn’t do this out of compassion or because I did not care. I did care – when I met him I did not even know about IPPS – but I can also be strategic. In fact, I thought at several points that our wires were so crossed that really he wanted me to tell him that I loved him and wanted to be his primary. That was probably true just so he could triangulate me more effectively but I think I once tried to explain to him that if I had gone for that, it would have been a mess. Even had I ‘won,’ his family and kids would hate me. Nothing good would come of it. I really did feel that way – that there was no solution. But that didn’t mean that I did not care. I just pretended not to care because my ego is massive (in case you did not notice :)) and I refused to lose.

            In the end, I was semi-honest and did tell him that he had to be out of his marriage if he wanted contact with me. But my reasoning was not that I was jealous but that for me it got in the way of us being able to figure out our own relationship – that is, it complicated my relationship with him. That’s what I said! Ballsy, huh! But I also told him that I was unable to forgive him for lying to me, and that was true too. It’s complicated but I can be pretty calculating, which is why I think a lot of it was so stressful for me. Constant mind games that I had to play for my own sanity.

            I am impressed by your physical fitness! I would also swim 3 or 4 days a week if I could. It is my favorite thing to do because it is total sensory deprivation but alas I have no swimming pools nearby.

          239. Kim e says:

            Hello. I needed to take a break. But missed you and our chats so it is your lucky day!
            Work has been changing as my coworkers last day was yesterday. Looking to hire a replacement but As the process is long I do not look for that until the new year. I am moving my work cube on Tuesday which doesnt sound like a big deal but when I can now see N’s building from my current cube and not from the new cube it IS A BIG DEAL. AH…the joys of after the N.
            My ET has calmed down… has been 8 weeks. RIght now I am 88% sure if I did see him I could ignore him where as 2 weeks ago it was 60%. Slowly but surely. Maybe it is a good thing that he is a MRN…as HG says…they dont really put any effort into anything. I still realize a hoover is always possible but right now I am not on a swivel any more. Also automatically go to the new train station now. Still dont like but have accepted
            Cold as my narc’s heart here this coming week….only in the 20’s with wind chills below zero. It is really early for this to start already.
            SO…tell me what is going on with you. Contact with OM? New renter? Married coworker? Perverted neighbor? LOL
            I have come to realize something that I find very upsetting to me. We, like our N, categorize them as “our”….like they think they own us. I think that objectifies them as they do the same to us…ownership… they are not people. But then I guess it is just the dynamic and knowing that they think of us as objects. If I say “my Ex” without the N attached I guess it is the same thing………Not sure if that is ET, LT or just plan weird thoughts in Kim’s head…..LOL

          240. SMH says:

            Hello Kim e! It IS my lucky day! Happy to have you back but even happier to see that you are fine and even better than you were when you left! Awesome that narc will be out of your sight. When I read things like that, I thank my lucky stars that MRN and I live in different countries now. We are not at the moment that far from each other but no way will we ‘run into’ each other.

            I am over whatever ever presence I was experiencing, though I found an old filtered FB message that FB removed to ‘verify the user’ from around the time of the initial hoover blast and IG changes. I also got another fake friend request (3 sitting there now). The newest thing is that someone from MRN’s city and country has been viewing a public FB page I have only been managing for about 2 months. Everyone is local and there are under 100 people following the page, so that is telling. But nothing I can do about it. It’s just something else to monitor.

            I managed to NOT look at LinkedIn so I won’t be tempted to analyze the ‘private views’ of my profile. Mid-ranger too and probably a bit scared of me now, so I don’t expect any direct hoovers. You know during the FR I tried to warn him so many times that I am a slow burn but when I am lit, watch out. At one point I demanded that he pay for my therapist and said, ‘I am warning you about me.’ He said ‘I know.’ But did he really listen? No. (Didn’t pay for my therapist either!)

            All is quiet in SMH world. No word from OM, haven’t seen perverted neighbor, new renter has not contacted me, and married work guy has been away the whole week. I am annoyed with the work people anyway, including with MWG, so I have been laying low.

            The only drama on narcsite has been about the useless gift card I purchased to make a donation anonymously. Caused a kerfuffle but what the hey, it will all get resolved. Otherwise, I’ve been able to catch up with CIF but we both missed you!

            It is cold here too. I am going to go to the gym and pick up my laundry. Thrilling! Hope you are having a good day. Muah!

          241. Kim e says:

            Filtered FB postings? What are those and how did you find them?
            I have been getting calls from foreign countries……!!! LOL
            W and I never corresponded on FB but when we were together every Tuesday and Thursday night he went to kickboxing. And every T & T night he would post on the public page of his FB with the location and thanking the instructor for the great class. When I disobeyed and did not bow to his corrective devaluation and he deleted me (who does that) he stopped posted that information. So weird.
            Ever presence is still there in smaller doses for me. I catch myself more often now instead of allowing myself to get sucked into it. I just tell myself it doesnt matter and change the narrative in my mind. I wont lie…he is far from gone but I am slowly moving on.
            Went to a friends tonight. Played cards, ate pizza, watched a movie…was nice and relaxed. Hadnt seen her for about a month with me traveling for the wedding and both of us being sick. It was nice to catch up.
            Sorry again that I just disappered but I was just feeling overwhelmed with ET. I saw the comment you made to CIF about you hoped it was not something you said. I can assure you it was not. I emailed HG and he was kind enough to reply. He told me it was my ET. Maybe so but I just knew I had to do it for me. I have NO intentions of contacting W. I also am not going to refer to him as my N or my MMRN as it is just so degrading to me. He might think of me as an appliance but he is a person to me. A person that broke my heart and has no soul or feelings but a person never the less. LOL
            I did not work out all last week. I did not just leave you I left the world.