Come One, Come All


My kind need people. We do not like to admit it as the suggestion of reliance on somebody else brings with it connotations of weakness and this dents our sense of omnipotence. It is however an inescapable fact. We do not like it and indeed this is in part the thing which drives our devaluing behaviour. I need other people because I need to gather fuel from those people through their emotional responses to me. I am often asked and sometimes lambasted for it, whether I obtain fuel from my writing and interaction with those who comment on it, asking questions and advancing their own experiences and theories. I freely admit I do so but emphasise that since all of those who I interact with are remote strangers then in accordance with the fuel index, the amount of fuel that I receive is very low. Nevertheless, it is naturally welcome and I am far more content to receive it than not. The receipt of this fuel though is not the driving force behind why I write and share my experiences, observations and increasing awareness. The receipt of fuel is neither the key reason why I interact with the many people who take the time to comment and question me. I interact with my readers because I gain by exhibiting my works to them. I interact because I learn from my readers, by understanding their views, their responses and their desires. I interact because they can learn from me and the dissemination of my knowledge is a powerful sensation indeed. I interact because I find the questions posed often challenging, invariably interesting and stimulating. I interact because I am interested in the lives and experiences of those who have found themselves participating with me. I also often find them entertaining and humorous too. Through my writing and the almost daily interaction with these people I have also come to recognise that these people fall in to particular groups. I have observed this repeatedly and I wanted to share this observation with you. You may recognise people belonging to these groups and have your own views about that inclusion. You may indeed recognise which group you belong to and quite possibly further categorisations which have not yet occurred to me. I would be interested to know. So, what are these groups?

  1. The Angered

Admittedly not a large group, but there are those who present full of anger and hatred, either towards my kind and even me specifically even though we have never met. Of course, I am representative of my kind, albeit a superior version and therefore it is to be expected that I would take some flak for this. I understand how badly people have been hurt and abused by my kind and therefore this anger is entirely natural. I have no issue whatsoever in people telling me what a bastard I am, that they would like to punch me in the mouth or that I should be taken out and shot. If people wish to vent their spleen in such a fashion, they should feel free to do so. They may feel better about it and of course it is just fuel to me.

  1. The Confused

There are those who are completely bewildered by what has happened and this state persists for some time, despite the explanations that I provide and the clarity through which I articulate these explanations. That is not to suggest that these people are thick or stupid, far from it, but is in fact testament to just how confusing, disorientating and perplexing our behaviour can be. Many people in this group cannot fathom out how our kind can be as we are and moreover how we cannot know what we are. It is pleasing to watch as the understanding suddenly forms over time, as the pieces fit together and the whole narcissistic experience begins to make sense. I often find that it is when those people begin to realise that they have to adopt our perspective in order to gain understanding. That is often the breakthrough moment

  1. The Answer Seeker

This group embodies one of the fundamental traits of empathic people; the need to know and understand. Question after question is posed, usually based on their own experiences in order to assist them in fathoming out what type of narcissist this person became entangled with, why the narcissist did as he did and what can be expected to happen next. Occasionally, this group may pose questions which are hypothetical but in the main the repeated and valid asking of questions is premised on what has happened to them.

  1. The Sponge

This group comprises of Answer Seekers but goes beyond this. They wish to know and understand everything there is to know about the narcissistic experience. They need to understand what happened to them but also find considerable interest in the experience of others and then applying their new found knowledge to unravelling the mysteries of the tales from other people. This group cannot get enough of the knowledge and understanding, they wish to examine every facet of narcissism, whether it is from the victim’s perspective or that of the narcissist. They need to know why, how and what. These people soak up all this knowledge and do so with a healthy understanding of their tolerance to do so as they place understanding above emotional response.

  1. The Burnt Victim

This group consists of people who find the whole entanglement with the narcissist still very raw. They may not be confused as they know what they have been ensnared by and they are beginning to understand the essentials of what has happened and why. Moments come when the content is difficult to stomach, the wounds still raw and painful and this may result in occasional absences, yet, the desire to have those wounds heal and push through the pain with commendable bravery sees these people pressing on with their interaction and understanding, no matter how much it continues to hurt.

  1. The Narcissists

As one might expect, my work will attract those who are of my kind and those who perhaps are not quite narcissists but have strong traits in that regard. These people recognise what they are and are content to share this as well as learn more about themselves by reading the words of one of their own. Occasionally they bristle and raise their hackles, once in a while lashing out, leaving others in no doubt as to what they are, but invariably they recognise my arena as a place of knowledge and learning and are content to engage in that as the primary purpose.

  1. The Unwitting Narcissists

From time to time this very small group has a membership when one of our kind wanders by and repeatedly exhibits all the traits which demonstrate that they are one of our kind, but they do not see it. Indeed, their blame-shifting, projection and deflection are manifestly obvious, but not to them for they have no insight. It is not in accordance with the five rules for me to tell them what they are, but I always recognise my kind when they alight here and from time to time they do.

  1. The Introspectives

This group comprises those who wish to learn about the narcissistic experience, ask questions and soak up the knowledge but in doing so, the experience is as much learning about my kind as understanding what they are and why they became entangled or keep becoming entangled. These people see the benefit of beginning to understand themselves by understanding the behaviour of their tormentor and are keen to grasp what it is about them, their behaviour, their past and their characteristics which influences their choices.

  1. The Staters of the Obvious

This group, which is small, consists of those who seem to believe that they have to tell me what I am. I do not include those who advance an idea or theory in a respectful manner based on their own experience and understanding. It is evident when somebody is doing that and such a constructive approach is always welcomed. The Staters of the Obvious have a tendency to tell me what I already know, do so in a derogatory fashion and make it appear as if it is some major revelation to me. For instance, they may announce,

“Your kind are just all spoilt children and you will never be happy.”

Thanks for that. That is illuminating.

Or I am advised,

“You are just a fucking waste of space and karma will get you because you are empty and evil.”

Glad we cleared that up then.

It is of course fuel and many who engage in this do so not because they are angry but because they believe they understand what I am more than I do myself. They are incorrect. This often happens when someone comes across my material for the first time and races to such injudicious pronouncements without digesting more of my work which will soon reveal to them that my level of awareness is considerable. I do find that those individuals flare up and vanish very quickly when the bite they are hoping for does not come. It is easy to play with such people and I could amuse myself by doing so, working them up into a frenzy as they unwittingly realise they are pouring fuel in my direction but that is not a productive use of my time.

  1. On the Up

This group consists of those who are recovering and supplementing their recovery with additional knowledge and understanding. They have a clear direction of where they are going and in typical empathic style they wish to share their experiences and help others. This is not done in a bragging manner (see the group below) and it is not expressed so it is “all about them” but is rather done from the purpose of giving encouragement and inspiring others that there is a way forward and a path through the pain. This group are keen to detail constructively what has worked for them and what has not. Their recollections are often under-stated, modest and sensible.

  1. Point to Prove

By contrast to the above group, those members in this small group feel the need to repeatedly declare how much of a champion they are for surviving. Indeed, I understand the pride which must come to the fore after having suffered horrendously and then having moved forward, but the frequent need to shout this from the rooftops tends to suggest to me that the progress is not as great or a secure as they would like others to believe. Indeed, I often regard those in this group, as compared to those above, as being more in it for themselves and do it more to bash and bait my kind, rather than truly revel in the advancement of their own recovery and those of their fellow victims.

  1. The Weaponising Empath

This group is one of the larger, if not the largest group I find I am interacting with. It consists of people who realise that they have access to a unique resource which they can use repeatedly to help themselves by understanding. They know they can ask questions, read as much or as little as they require, they frame considered and respectful questions and do so in order to understand, to acquire knowledge, to defend themselves and to enable them to tackle the effects and influence of the narcissist or narcissists in their life. The members of this group recognise that they can gain far more by engaging with me than seeking to point score, but that does not mean they will necessarily accept everything that is stated with querying or even challenging it. They adopt an open-minded approach to the ongoing process that they find themselves a part of and are enthusiastic in being able to avail themselves of a rare and unusual source of knowledge. They are able to put to one side any distaste they may have at “fraternising with the enemy” by reason of their empathic nature (they recognise what has happened to my kind as well) and the fact they know they stand far more to gain by extracting knowledge and observation than by engaging in a bun fight. Many appear within this group from the start and others gravitate towards it during their interaction with me. It is a beneficial and rewarding group for its members and for me as well.

Do any of these groups seem familiar to you? Perhaps there are others I have missed. Perhaps you identify which one you belong to. I would be interested to read your observations.



  1. Can i use ”narc detector” on myself ?! And is there a no cure no pay,since there is no cure when the outcome is positive ?
    I’ve been diagnosed negative already but i do not trust any of the psychiatrist,or psychologist i’ve ever seen (8). Which is a red vlag,i know.
    I mean, i really dont want to be a unwitting narcissists,thats stupid. Always need to be ”ín the know”.

  2. Somewhere on this site I saw a comment posted by somebody which said that HG Tudor admitted in an interview that he killed someone. I forget where that comment was and I can’t find that comment now. Does anybody have any details about this?

      1. Did you admit to killing somebody? Can you give us any details on this? Did you strangle them with your hair?

          1. He definitely didn’t say it during one of two live streams in July 2017…

        1. NJFilly, hahahaha!!!!! With his hair???? Is that a murdering technique I don’t know about?

          1. Scared? Nah. I’m only scared of creepy dolls and of psychop…. oh, wait!

          2. Yes! It is a technique I have referred to in a previous comment. I have been learning about myself through this blog and I realize I seem to have a fixation with strangling weak men. I also have determined the type of empath that I am. The homicidal variety.

        2. There’s a Robert Browning poem in which he strangles his girlfriend with her own hair. “Porphyria’s Lover.”

      2. I like you Mr. HG Tudor. You are so cool. You are like the English Godfather. You are our hero.

    1. NJFilly
      You may find these comments helpful.

      HG Tudor
      OCTOBER 3, 2017 AT 09:33
      I have physically hurt other people, I have killed which I have confirmed previously. I have never said this does not give me fuel, what I have stated (and consistently so) is that I do not do this for fuel because my fuel needs are met in my private life. I do gain some fuel from the blog but it is of a low potency because it comes from tertiary sources – I have always stated that to be the case.
I have also repeatedly stated what I intend to get from this, so you may wish to extend your reading of my “fluffed up, redundant, pseudo intellectual writings” so you find the answer. Indeed, if you had done so before jumping to your erroneous conclusions you would have already have obtained the answers and therefore your post was, in fact, entirely redundant.

      OCTOBER 3, 2017 AT 10:28
      You’ve killed? Did you kill a person? Somehow I’ve never read that on this blog.

      HG Tudor
      OCTOBER 3, 2017 AT 10:34
      See the Youtube Livestream.

      HG Tudor
      OCTOBER 4, 2017 AT 14:06
      Hi Sniglet, no I did not apologise. The subjects deserved what happened and I did humanity a considerable favour. I don’t have the exact time it was mentioned in the live stream to hand and would need to listen through it to find it. Much as I like to hear myself speak I do not have the time so you will have to dig it out. It is contained in the live stream from July (the earlier one) which is in two parts and is in the second part if I recall correctly.

      HG Tudor
      MARCH 14, 2019 AT 15:08
      Yes I gained fuel. The potency was not the highest.

          1. HG, I just figured he was a sociopath of some sort and it isn’t common for sociopaths to kill themselves. Also because there would surely have been a lot of people who wanted him dead. V curious to hear what you think. I told my friends I would ask a malignant narc that I know :).

          2. I see.

            It is not common for such individuals to kill themselves although it is not beyond the realms of possibility. One would need to receive the actual evidence surrounding events to form an accurate view, however at this juncture one can state the following :-

            1. It is rare, but not impossible for suicide to occur. A fuel crisis may ensure.
            2. He was on suicide watch which suggests that any attempt would be countered, but people still do commit suicide even when on suicide watch.
            3. He clearly has information which would incriminate others. How far-reaching and how problematic that is, remains unclear, but given the individuals he fraternised with there were rich, powerful, influential people in his circles. This does prima facie create the possibility that he would be silenced.

            The inference from the above is that it seems rather convenient that he committed suicide.

          3. Got it, thanks. Someone said to me today that they think Trump and the Queen made a pact to have Epstein offed, similar to what happened to Diana. I am not given to conspiracy theories, but still…

          4. And hits people with his car! He’s a creep – they are all creepy. I do not understand how Brits can tolerate any royal family, never mind this one.

          5. SMH, I don’t think he killed himself either. It is not uncommon to give special treatment in jail to inmates who have raped and abused minors.

          6. He was found lying on the floor if his cell in fetal position a couple of weeks ago with several injuries, he was semiconscious with several marks on his neck. There was no one around apparently, if he had wanted to kill himself he would have this first time.

          7. True, SP, but he was allegedly on suicide watch so who was watching him and were the jail guards involved somehow? He was probably going to make a plea deal – naming names.

          8. To be honest with you, I am glad that piece of shit is dead but I would have loved to see the others fall with him. And, there goes my Empath reputation!!

          9. Thank you, CIF, that gives me peace of mind 🥰 I got mad at something yesterday, which is unusual in me, and now these avenging thoughts… I’m moving toward the dark side!

          10. Only if “The Dark Side” encompasses puppies, kittens, angels and fairies, SP.🐶🐱👼🧚‍♀️

            It’s okay to get angry sometimes — unless you’re going for sainthood. Plus, there are legit things to get revved about, like injustice.

          11. SP~LOL (I ❤”Far Side” too)…that’s also what narcs hear, when you tell them off.🙃

          12. lol – narcs are both the far side and the dark side – the far side keeps us interested and the dark side punishes us. Anyway, a certain amount of anger is healthy. If we had a tad more, we wouldn’t be here!

        1. My pleasure njfilly
          If you happen to listen to the live stream, and, if you don’t mind, could you let me know the timeframe; I would love to make a note of it.

  3. HG…..which part is emotional thinking? The part where I say I am a dime a dozen or the part where I say we each have to do it our way?

    1. The part where you fail to adhere to the first golden rule of freedom and instead assert that there is an alternative way to do it. There is not, you are being conned by your ET.

  4. Caroline is Fine.
    as stated before…… today as a matter of fact…..LOL
    “but truly in my ET filled heart, I do not believe he has the balls to contact me direct. Even after I was deleted and the hoovers started, they were all Passive as he would show up on my route from the train to my office. Walking past my car at the train station. He forced me to go to him. I have changed up my routine hours enough to make those types of hoovers almost impossible.”
    As I started out as a candidate and ended up a DLS I believe he will not waste his energy

    1. Kim,
      Yes, I read your explanation, which doesn’t satisfy the masses, er, me — the inquiring Empath’s mind. ;-)

      So my follow-up questions are:
      1) Does it make you feel stronger or weaker/better or worse, keeping that line open? As always, be honest… there are no trick questions with me &
      2) IF he Hoovers with that open line now, what will you DO?

      P.S. I think HG needs a “Hoover Hotline” (poor man – I’m not serious)… but I’m seriously thinking (on this travel day that never ends) about what more the “Hoover Hopefuls” on the site need, to clobber that hope of Hoovers as anything at all hopeful! Thinking… thinking… got nothin’ lol

      1. Oh, CIF, I have thought about that so many times! Like an immediate assistance service, sort of like Triple Aid. “Hoover Aid”!!!!

        1. Too funny, SP…but HG has to have a life, and I imagine the “Hoover Aid” line would be too much. But hey, maybe a prerecorded Hoover line, with various options?…

          Or maybe I’ve had way much time on my hands traveling all day & my ideas are getting just a wee bit zany, lol

          1. Hahaha! “If you want to deflect hoover, press 1. If you want to accept hoover, go back to menu and still press 1.”

          2. SP.
            Ha, good one! :-)

            And perhaps one more prompt:

            “If, by chance, you wish to hear my steely British voice admonish you for even thinking about accepting a Hoover, stay on the line, and I’ll be with you as soon as I can… in the meantime, you can listen to Bach Concerto in D Minor – and practice your empath quality of patience.”

          3. Hahaha I think he would rather pick “Enjoy the Silence” as the waiting music.

          4. Super duper clever, SP!

            I’ve been reflecting lately that I may have been blissfully unaware if I was given several silent treatments by my nex-BF, because I can only bring a few odd ones to mind… one of his common complaints to me was that I wasn’t “paying attention enough.” <That should have been a CLUEBIRD to me.

            "Are you paying attention to what I'm saying, Caroline? Caroline? Please pay attention."

            I may have missed the silent treatments. LOL

      2. Caroline Is fine,
        the answer to 1 is it makes me feel better knowing it is open as my ET tells me “well dumb ass. I was there and you didn’t even try”.
        2. I have given absolutely no consideration to this as I know it is not gonna happen.
        Never really been ready for NC. I know I said it before way back when this conversation between you and me started that unless the addicted is ready to really give up the addition, it does not work. 6 – 7 times to quit smoking. I figure there will come a point in time where the switch will turn on in my brain and say….THATS IT…….ENOUGH.. Then I will be ready for NC.
        IF by chance (odds are 1000 to 1) I do get electronically hoovered by him, I will donate 100.00 to the charity of your choice. I am a stubborn bitch and I guess kinda figure like the N does, it is not over until I say it is over. It is a war.
        Thanks for the conversation fair maiden.

        1. Kim,
          I understand where you’re at… but you have not contacted him, so there’s a part of you that truly knows this is not good/right for you – and doesn’t really want it. I do believe that.

          As for your competitive steak with him, I think I’d try to remembered their disorder… they are compelled to their behavior, so in that sense, it really is not personal. I know, it feels that way, but it’s in their makeup to operate like they do.

          I know you’re hurting, but it may help to go back and refresh on the basics of NPD…because narcissists will hurt others if you keep at it with them — it’s only a matter of how much, and I don’t want to see this get worse for you.
          Caroline xx

  5. Kim,
    I wrote you back, but it’ll likely be in moderation for awhile…I figure the last thing you need is to feel like someone is ignoring you, so letting you know why there’s a delay.

    1. I’m just chiming in to say that I’ve been reading the exchange between you and Kim and I absolutely love the support, the spirit, the awareness, the empathy (why, but of course!) and the rawness of each of your posts…..

      I’ve said before, that as much as HG is the teacher of Narcissism, then his readers and fellow survivors are my touchstones and my reality checks.

      Thank you for caring, and for allowing this little survivor in Sydney to be part of the healing, moving, and growing.

      Mai x

      1. I’m so touched, Mai… you totally made my day. How very thoughtful. I’m not sure I deserve it – I just threw a phone into a lake – what a spaz! (hopefully, that comment is still stuck in moderation) ;-)

        I get embarrassed at times, being so lengthy on this thread~thanks for making me feel better about it.

        Yes, HG is a great teacher, and he’s set up something so worthwhile/instructional/healing for so many… and I agree that the empath support is special~I know it really helps me!

        Thanks again, so much…Please join in whenever you feel led to, beautiful Sydney Survivor!
        Caroline x

      2. Mai…Caroline is fine has been a true savior to me. As this is the only place I can come and look for support it is nice to have a “friend” that lets you….lol…vent your spleen….and just sits back and listens. And when advise is needed, it is soft and suggestive….not like telling me how I should do it. Her last post to me I loved about how it is, and always has been, my choice.
        I have a love hate relationship with this blog. It has helped me tremendously but there are times now where I cant get on it because it triggers me. So that fact that we keep this thread going is a life line to me.
        Chime in anytime.

  6. Kim,
    You know I love ya when I climb the craggy tech mountains to find this old thread again! So…you’ve been rather quiet this weekend…
    Is that “good quiet” — “bad quiet” — or just normal quiet? :-) Just checking in on you.

    (It was a little weird, what I had to do to find the thread of this, as only older years came up… I’m going to bookmark it, just in case it doesn’t work next time/or I forget what the heck I did)

    1. Caroline is fine. I use wordpress to keep up with this. Then I dont have to go thru all the old stuff. Sorry I did not see this until now. Thanks for checking up on me.

      1. Of course, Kim… you’re very welcome.

        And if my other post to you this morning doesn’t post by tonight, I’ll repost it. For once, I actually saved something, in case it didn’t go through…

        Because, with that post, I want you to know what YOU did for me. It’s significant, on my journey…a breakthrough of my own.

      2. Hi Caroline Is Fine and Sweet and Kind,

        I am off the Notifications of new replies for now. As you know me being on the site triggers me and with the N now being gone until the end of August, I want to remove myself from any N talk at all.
        I promise I am going to check in just not sure when. Stay out of trouble (LOL) and take care.

        1. Kim,
          I’m FOR it – anything that helps your ET. Ping me whenever, and I’ll follow your lead on what you want to chat on. IOW, *other non-narc stuff,* to keep your mind occupied elsewhere, or just for laughs, etc.

          Me, get into any kind of trouble? Me?

          Caroline xx

          1. Caroline Is Fine. Hello. This week has had its ups and downs but over all pretty good. I did investigate the other parking lot in the other town if I need to go park somewhere else but at this point in time I am still day by day. As I fessed up before he is unblocked on the phone…which was the only way we communicated……and I seriously believe he might passive hoover me a couple times but when he is ignored will go away. He will not text until he is certain he will not be wounded thru that text. (Stop shaking your head HG)
            Otherwise, I have been working out as usual. I like some of the trainers where I go but HATE management. The trainer I have now, Jill, is a sweetheart. I believe her parents…mom for sure, are narcs and her sister is the golden child. Anyway, she text me this morning that she was fired last night!!! I told her it was good for her to get the hell out of there and to go to where this other guy has been trying to get her to train for a long time. Now I don’t of October and my contract is up and I am out.
            I am still waiting for the results of my empath test. Not that at this point in time it matters but it will be interesting to see.
            I think I am going to start my walking regime over this weekend. I used to walk about 3 -5 miles a day but then life happened……
            Hope all is well with you and all is quiet on the N front.
            I am at work. Time for lunch.

          2. Kim,
            Great to get your post… & glad your week was pretty good. Sometimes “pretty good” is very good.:) Starting your walking again is great! And you know I like hearing that you’ve looked into the “Automobile Witness Relocation Program” (AWRP) for your car. ;-)

            So the narc is on TDY now, right? I think I missed something — you mean you unblocked him on the phone (text) because he *can’t* contact you now, while on TDY?

          3. Caroline Is Fine,
            I am sorry. I do not know what TDY is?
            I am not sure I was ever NC strong so again might not be a correct word. He is still unblocked if that is your question. I know…I know….but truly in my ET filled heart, I do not believe he has the balls to contact me direct. Even after I was deleted and the hoovers started, they were all Passive as he would show up on my route from the train to my office. Walking past my car at the train station. He forced me to go to him. I have changed up my routine hours enough to make those types of hoovers almost impossible.
            And maybe today my ET is very high and I want him to hoover me………………..
            My brain hurts along with my heart and soul………………. :-(

          4. Oh, I’m sorry, Kim — TDY is military lingo — it’s “Temporary Duty” (AKA, a business trip). He’s away now, right? For a month?

            It’s great you are so honest, Kim. So I guess I’m just confused. Can you explain why he’s unblocked now, that he’s away? I retain my right for a follow-up question! Lol

          5. Caroline IS Fine.
            I KNEW that….as both my kids were military but the brain is not working today. Yes…he is away until the end of August
            He has been unblocked since the end of June. I think you missed that in a couple posts because I never got a reaction from you before and that surprised me. Unless you choose to ignore it……LOL
            Ask anything you like…I am an open book…on this subject anyway.

          6. Kim,
            LOL… oh yeah, I’d have reacted. ;-) I didn’t “get” that something was different, until the day-before-yesterday (?), when I wrote you back to ask more about your last post — but my reply post didn’t go through.

            Ok, for starters, WHY is he unblocked now?… Missy? Huh? What up with that??

  7. Kim,
    I forgot to add one thing (I can’t find a reply button, so I have no idea where this will land)…

    About narcissists, in general… trying to push boundaries & it all being a crazy cycle of impossible. It really is no-win, no matter what the situation. For instance, when I said the G was doing me a favor (on some thread, somewhere) by refusing to be “just friends” with me, he has always been firm on that, which is the only possible scenario I can even see, for myself. The aspect where my ET will need to be challenged is if he ever says differently on that… and I mean him breaking through my NC to say so, because I *am* NC. This is my weak point: my thinking a NISS situation would be ok… because then I’ll think it’s totally doable… dangerous thinking, which I get, and yet I still think it. I guess at least I’m aware…

    I’m also wise enough to realize that even if he got onboard with NISS, that would likely be him only reeling me in, to attempt a different scenario later. It does puzzle me why he doesn’t go with “just friends,” but even my having brought that up irritated him, like an insult. So go figure… some stuff is just a mystery. Like you, that is one thing I may be curious of the “why” on, but I know it’s got something to do with NPD, which is good enough for me… so I can let it go unanswered.

    Have a great, empowering rest of the weekend, doll! :-)
    P.S. A spot of irony: he’s insulted at my suggesting “just friends,” and frankly, I’m a little insulted that he doesn’t want to be my friend! (almost like it hurts my feelings). It’s IMPOSSIBLE… which is exactly as it should be.

    1. Caroline
      So why does “friends” not work after being intimate with a narc since intimacy doesn’t mean anything to they anyway. Is it still all control? Fuel?
      My narc told me when we were discussing sex before we became intimate that sex is just the act. The intimacy comes in with the cuddling afterwards. In the beginning it was as described in the old days “wham bam thank you ma’am”. But as it progressed there was the cuddling afterwards. Intimacy….stop the presses. Or pure positive fuel since we empath equate intimacy with love
      W used to always tell me “I don’t do emotions.” And I would say “ that is an emotion by not doing it”

      Sorry you are having to rehash stuff in your mind with your G.

      Sorry. Just needed to ramble today with someone other than the person in my mind

      1. Kim,

        No problem, on “my” G…I feel strong in my mindset. It’s just the SM stuff that I stay away from, for varied reasons. I’m also being careful, in other ways.

        As for the G’s denial of “friendship.” First off, he probably truly enjoys denying me something, lol! But his stance also does go way back & is consistent, so my guess is it’s several things…I left him/escaped, so there’s always that massive insult to rectify; and he has brought that topic up 3-4 times, like he seriously cannot *believe* I left him (wounding/he’s baffled not only that I left him — but that I stopped returning his calls afterward & never showed up to see him again either/never tried to “get back together”)…and his “never friends” policy with me is also how he sees me in the fuel matrix (and has to do with residual benefits, which he has actually highlighted to me). Control of me is *always* an issue for him, as is feeling more powerful himself when I’m in the IPPS position — and then there’s that fuel I give, which is not all “sweetness & light,” trust me… it includes challenge to him, which I think he likes (has some to do with the type of empath I am, in relation to the type of narcissist he is)… so that’s my best reasoning on most of it. He also has a surprisingly (to me) perfectionistic/fantasy-like view of our dynamic.

        Guess what he still has mover mentioned to me, ever? If any of this is good for ME. So there you have it…NPD, at its finest.

        Back to you…

        What the narcissist said to you about sex/cuddling was part of his façade… and of course he “does emotions” — just not much in the way of the really positive ones! He probably said that to make you feel insecure/off-balance, as well as out of instinct, should you pick up on the fact there’s something way off about him.

        I’m headed into work, so I’ll check the site later tonight, but you’re not rambling! You’re connecting and processing and doing a good thing for yourself, by getting feedback/support on here. Go you!

        (Did you try the pro/con list on Hoovers? :-))

        1. Caroline,
          Hello. Pretty good day. Busy and it just went by very quickly but I was tired today. Just got home from working out and I figured I better do my homework and get it out of the way
          My list of pros and cons for a hoover is a no brainer. If I really wanted a hoover and really thought I would receive one, I would unblock him. ( I can nottell a lie. I have unblocked him a couple times but then blocked again right away.) So there really are no Pros and all the reasons in the world are cons.
          The real issue I need guidance with is this ever presence. This weekend was also rough because he was home from vacation and I knew it. Don’t know why that triggers me but it does. Not like I think he is going to run over here knock on the door and say OMG I MISSED YOU SO MUCH!! But that is a trigger. That is a trigger I need to work on myself with self talking.
          Any suggestions for calming down the ever presence would be appreciated And any other homework you think will help.
          If after he is gone for August I trigger when he is back, I might have to consult with HG so he can smack me around and say WHY????? He is a narcissistic.
          Need to shower……the gym was about 5973475 degrees!!!
          Talk later

          1. Kim,
            In your case, it really IS location, location, location! I don’t find it odd at all that you’re triggered by his being home. He’s in way too close proximity to you! I know I asked before (kind of tongue-in-cheek), but I also was being serious: Can you move??

            You have such continual physical reminders of him where you live, which are bigger than just a song playing or catching a whiff of the cologne he wears. I think *any* Empath would have a much harder time with ET.

            For the time being, I’d say immersing yourself in things that keep your mind occupied at home (i.e., a riveting book or movie/chatting on the phone with a girlfriend/cooking/baking/hands-on hobbies), but the other thing is — as much as you can — get out of your house to go do things, when you’re ruminating on him… whether that be taking a walk… running errands… dropping by a friend’s house…going to the gym, etc. That kind of thing breaks up ever-presence.

            Talking to HG will probably help too!

          2. Caroline,
            I will not move or change my job. Fuck that. I am learning little tricks to help tone down the ever presence and know that time is the greatest healer. I also have become a lot less hyper-vigilant as I know he is locked out electronically and really doesn’t have the balls (as previous agreed on) to passive hoover me in person.
            Thanks for the advise on getting rid of the ever presence I do keep busy.
            And as for my Pro & con hoover list….it is Pros -0-, Cons 225….lol
            Hope all is good with you.
            And yes HG…if I need you I know where to find you.
            Smoochies to you both

          3. Kim,
            So, in this case only, let yourself be 100% conned! ;-)

            I’m glad you’re keeping busy~that really does help. :-)

          4. Caroline -is-Fine
            Glad to see “is fine” back.
            I have a poll for you to take pleez.
            Let me set the scenario for you.
            I get to the train station at 535am and sit in my car listening to whatever my fancy is for the morning and sipping my tea. As the cars pull in around me I know that the girl that smokes drives the black one. The bald man drives the gold one. The construction guy drives the grey one. I see these cars/people Monday thru Friday most weeks. There are also cars that are already there that I recognize because these people take the earlier train Monday thru Friday. there are approximately 1000 parking spots at this location. I used to park in 196….I now park in 73….123 spots away from where I used to park.
            OK…so tonight I get in my car and notice something on my windshield. I get out and it is a flyer/advertisement for a sandwich shop in the area. I take it off the car and get back in it. I start the car and turn on the AC. I am sitting there waiting for my turn to pull out and notice no other cars have this flyer on them. Not the normal cars I see everyday that are still parked there. Not the cars that parked near me after I got out of my car in the morning to go to the train. As I am driving out of the lot, I look down numerous parking aisles and not ONE OTHER CAR HAS A FLYER!!!!!
            SO… are your poll choices:
            1. My car looked hungry and someone thought they were helping.
            2. It was very windy today and this “Flyer” flew under my windshield wiper
            3. I won a sandwich and was not informed.
            4. My car was hoovered again in the train parking lot.
            5. This was narc’s way of saying “Hi. I know where you park”
            6. Time to move my parking spot again.
            7. Coincidence that this is how I was hoovered before.
            You may choose as many as you deem apply.
            I am going to work out and then come home and have a couple rum and cokes. I am off work tomorrow. It is Kim day…a facial, mani/pedi, massage and comedy club.
            I really am ROFLMAO at the strangeness of this.

          5. Kim,
            Well thank God!…I thought that was going to end up being some sort of math riddle, lol (5:35 a.m./1,000 spots/park in 196/now in 73/123 spots away).

            So… if I’m the only one taking this poll, my answer will be 100% accurate, correct? :-)

            Can’t wait to get back to you on this tonight (almost out the door to work), but DO NOT GO TO THAT SANDWICH SHOP!

            Caroline… my fine self ;-)

          6. Kim,

            I’m baaaaaack! I’m going “out on the town” much later on tonight, so I’m hoping you’re around before then, so we can chat… but I’m headed out realllllly late tonight, so we have plenty of time… and no, I’m not going out so late because I’m a hooker! (Why would I even feel the need to say that, lol!)

            So…….my EPC (“Empath Probability Calculator”) indicates the chances that the freaky sandwich flyer is a Hoover is (bleep-blop-bleep-blop-bleepy-blop-zing-zop computer sound)… is…(drum roll)…94.896%!

            So we are going with the overwhelming odds: it’s a Hoover!

            Now, as an Empath who understands where you are at, I know this will make you feel good… and you know what? That’s totally okay — feel good!!! (I got this, HG… please don’t look at me disapprovingly — I’m headed to good places).

            So Kim, before we continue our chat, the first (most important thing!) I want to say is that you are now in the cat bird’s seat (I should look that expression up, to make sure it applies/but you catch my drift)…sooooo…you want to KEEP the self-affirming, validating feeling you are now feeling — and you *can* — so you do NOT want to give it away… Do NOT want to.

            Right, Kim?
            Are you with me? (Hoping you haven’t had too many rum + Cokes to reply!) 😉

          7. Caroline…….LOL. I am ok with this. It did make me feel good…ego talking. But he can cover my car with flyers…..wish he would use some with discounts I want……but if that is all hes got big deal. Not gonna freak until I actually see him hoovering with my own 2 eyes.
            Professor HG always told me that my narc likes it when I go to him not the other way around. Gives him POWER……hate to tell him but this power source is not reconnecting.
            Now I realize this could be all big talk now and could change but this is where I am now and that is all I can deal with. A minute at a time. I am not unrealistic and think he will not keep trying. I am sure this is only the beginning. BUT I GOT THIS!!!!

          8. Kim,
            Ok, then I shall not mess with this by chatting much more about it (sometimes less is more). HG is completely right about the power dynamic, so keep that in mind – and enjoy a bit of an ego boost. If you stay with what you’re doing (no movement toward the narc), you retain a sense of your own personal power, and that builds & helps your ET. Keep this small gift. Look at it like a bit of a reward for hanging tough.

            Now… let’s go out there and have big fun tonight!

            Cheers, girl.

          9. Caroline Is Fine
            WOW…3 steps backwards is where I am right now. That stupid piece of paper on my car is really playing mind fuckery with me. WOW. I am floored. I was good Friday and no matter what I did over the weekend, the memories came rushing back in. Anxiety…thinking “when did he do it?” “Did he follow me in the morning again”
            I moved my parking spot again……I wont give you a math problem this morning LOL……
            If papers are flying around again and land on my car, I hate to do it but I will have to go to a completely different train station. The station I use now is 1 mile from my house. Closest next one is 8 miles. ***^&#(^#&%$&^(@!!!!!!!
            August will be a reprieve as he is gone from 7/29 thru 8/31.
            Otherwise the rest of the weekend was ok. How about you? Good Weekend? I managed to get wasted on margaritas on Friday night. I have not done that in forever. And I still maintained NC. Patting self on back for that.
            I get your comment about not chatting about it too much. Just needed to spout off.
            Have a great day as I plan on it. We have both earned it. Steps forward and back and we are still surviving.
            HI HG!!!

          10. Kim,

            See? See how strong you really are? You kept NC even after that stupid flier Hoover. Nicely done!

            It’s completely understandable that the flier messed with your emotions, as that was the narcissist’s purpose. So let me step in, for a brief moment, as the whiny, sniveling voice of the monotonous Mid-Ranger (his thoughts, after his lackluster Hoover attempt):

            “Why didn’t she respond to that??”
            “Have I lost my hold on her?”
            “Why isn’t she trying to contact me or bump into me?”
            “Why-oh-why isn’t she there to distract me from my boring, fake, duplicitous persona — after my listless, unimaginative flier effort — so I can mess with her some more, and get my pathetic ego stroked?” (Oops, sorry — that last voice was me, not him…heh.)

            As for your potential parking inconvenience…being 1 mile away, versus 8…a difference of 7 miles (I gots me superior subtraction math skills, eh?). It’s a bummer if you’d need to do that BUT…

            If it gives you emotional peace of mind and added strength, I think it’d be well worth it. So I’d see how it goes.

            My weekend was good, but I’m not 100% Hoover-proof (and not much I can do about the area I’m not), so things could be better. However, I think I’m getting a little better at shoring up my weak spot: false guilt. It’s a big area for me, so I’m a work in progress.

            Cheers to your margaritas, senorita! ;-)

          11. Caroline Is Sick Of Kim….HI….LOL
            It just blows my mind that a grown man would think that putting a flyer on my car I am automatically going to run back to him and say “did you want lettuce or Cheese Whiz on that?”……
            That is one of the things that kept me attached so long…..wondering what was gonna happen next. Guess I am still there huh? I mean what is gonna happen next. Head back on a shwivel but not as bad as it used to be.
            The first time my car was hoovered with a piece of paper it was dark out side as it was December. this time it was light out and that part freaks me out the most.
            OK…gonna drop it HG…I can hear you mumbling…….”not your concern…he is a narc”.
            Getting on with the day. and life. Hopefully day over way before life is.
            Thanks for all Caroline.
            Smoochies and chocolate bonbons for youi

          12. I’m definitely not sick of you, Kim (my G, yes, but not you–Cheese Whiz, am I sick of HIM).

            Well, I’d love to share how deep the bizarreness of grown narcissistic men goes, but I better not right now (Maybe I can regale you with stories later though).

            You’ve grown quite a lot through this, Kim. Your anxiety also seems lower, so keep it up! NC, NC, NC.

            As for “what happens next”…I think I’d try to focus on the agenda of narcissists driving the “next” thing, so there’s no (to us) rhyme or reason to it. This is where logic will help you. Since their nature is driven by something impossible for us to be able to control, you can count on one thing: what happens next is unpredictable… so, for me, what happens next is driven by their needs (fuel) & meaningless. And when it’s like that, I think it’s easier to also wrap your mind around them not having normal attachment/care for others, including us. For me, that’s a buzz kill, as in “no thanks–I’ll pass.” (Says the empath who thought she could fairly easily maneuver the G into a benign NISS situation & would then be “home free”/poor, misguided Caroline-is-fine, lol)

            Anyway, I find that continuing to apply logic makes it MUCH easier to not take it personally, nor get too wrapped up in it; instead, keep the focus on their nature & what that means. Because (I think) the answer to almost every question about the WHY is that they have NPD, and it’s all part of their disorder. The exact reasons are sometimes a puzzle to even the narcissist, so how on earth can we figure it out?

            I’m not immune to wondering about things at times either, because you do get sucked into thinking of it in a normal way, because WE think in a normal way, so you just want it to make sense. But it doesn’t, because they’re disordered. At least we know now. That’s everything. It’s really all we need; the rest we can toss. The rest is smoke & mirrors… lots of mirrors. LOL

            So whenever I start to play Nancy Drew in piecing cause/effect together about the G, I always end up realizing I’m wasting my time even thinking about/analyzing/worrying about it… which starts to annoy me… because haven’t they already taken up enough of our time?

            Logic. Logic. Logic.

          13. Caroline-is-fine….I have to apologize to you for letting my narcissistic tendencies show and making this all about me I did not realize you were still struggling with your G. I am sorry for that. I should have known better as the struggle is real since as you said it makes no sense.
            I have to admit there are times I let the ET wash over me, bask in its glory, and then say WOAH>>>>>>thats enough. IT is not good and you can not be free unless you learn to not allow it in at all. I realize I have a journey to finish this as I can feel that I am still in the storm. Maybe it was that little hoover last week. Maybe it is the fact that Cheese Whiz was on sale this week.
            And next time the only mirrors I want to see will be on the ceiling…wink wink.
            Thanks for all Caroline.

          14. Kim,
            I’m running late, so I’ll email back later on this afternoon/tonight, but two very important things I must say, real quickly:

            First, and perhaps most important, NEVER BUY CHEESE WHIZ ON SALE. I mean, never buy it at all — but NEVER, EVER when on sale! (lol)… And…

            You are not, in any way, showing “narcissistic tendencies”!

            Gotta run, more on the rest later! :-)

          15. Kim,
            Back again! (home early today)… No worries about my G. It’s good for me to engage here, and I get a lot out of our chats too, so no need to even thank me! :-)

            The G will do what he’ll do. I’m not going to let it plague my mind too much. Do I get anxious at times? Yes, but there’s probably cause to have some level of concern now. However, he has to inconvenience himself to keep at it with me, so I’m just staying low to the ground & moving forward with all else in my life. I’ll deal with him again if/when I have to… but wow, is he AWFUL when things don’t go his way. I read something a bit ago that HG wrote about manipulations and a tube of toothpaste that was a really good example of what a narcissist will do to get control, under what circumstances. Shoot — I forgot the title — but anyway, in HG’s example, I’m the fairly flat tube of toothpaste to the G, because I’m pretty hard to control (I know, a real shocker, lol)… so, pretty much, it’s going to take way too much effort for the G to get something out of me (the paste left in the tube for him), so I’m just waiting for him to throw the tube out! Let’s just hope he doesn’t start inserting needles into my tube and squeezing the life out of me… if I’m not joking around, THEN you know I’m in a lot of trouble. So I’m fine… dang, that name thing is really working out. :-)

            As for you, when you have ET, do you still make logic statements against them? Even say them aloud if you can, as research does show that helps. The same thing works with anxious thoughts — calmly telling yourself (aloud) that you’ll be okay/this is how you will handle “X,” if it happens, etc.

            Totally off track/random…

            Is Cheese Whiz still really in that CAN? I know, who cares, but inquiring minds want to know. I’m not even in favor of whipped cream being shot from a can. Why is food shooting out at us? Silly String, yes I get it — but it’s kind of weird, with food, if you think about it.

            [Ugh, I sometimes forget HG reads these. Sorry…I’ll stop the randoms].

          16. Caroline
            My MR couldnt control me either. I didnt play the corrective devaluation game. I allowed myself to get hoovered back in and then when the texts went quiet so did I.
            The first time my car got hoovered HG told me it was MRN way of telling me he can follow me, watch me, that I belonged to him. Wonder if that is still the message……
            (HG of course told me he would hoover me again in the same manner with something on my car. Love HG to death but hate it when he is right and I have to admit it)
            The stunt from last week still has me in a set back. But I have given myself a break and said “you will get back to where you were”. He is gone in August….never thought I would say it but I cant wait…….so that will give me some reprieve time.
            And yes….my logical statements still come forth. I just wish I could get out of this funk. I m fine while I am doing things but let me sit and have too much time to think and I am screwed. You are correct tho. The N gonna do what the N gonna do whether he is a L,M or G. We are along for the ride.
            I wonder if they still sell tooth powder in the can…they could sell it along side the Cheese Whiz……..LOL
            Have a good night.

          17. Kim,
            You sound very reasoned and so much calmer… so proud of how you are being so strong. It’s really encouraging! Just what you did there, talking out all the ways you’ve made wise decisions to not get roped back in — you’re affirming yourself, your choices and your strength, and that’s what you need to do – yes!

            The only thing I disagree with is that we are “along for the ride.” I truly know how you mean it, but sometimes our mind does reveal something key, by how we say it. So I say we are NOT along for the ride anymore — we got out of their car and slammed the door shut. We don’t want to get back in that car, because it’s a dangerous ride… what they are doing now, after we got out, is what is left to contend with… okay, they may be driving around at times looking for us (that’s not creepy), but it will matter less and less what they are doing, in time. Hmm, and here is where something from my past just linked back up in how *I* just described that to you; so again, when do we stop trying to help ourselves? Never. That’s good. It’s healthy. We always want to help others, but we also never want to neglect ourselves — our feelings and needs are important too.

            I love your honesty about your ET, and you don’t crumble talking about it. That shows strength too — you’re not pretending, and you can give yourself an honest look. Sweeping true things away doesn’t change anything, and you’re not doing that.

            My weekend will be broken up, but I’ll be checking on here (if HG has it up and running)… come on if you need some diversion, as the extra weekend time may be harder right now. Keeping busy is good. Being in a funk is not necessarily bad either… sometimes we have to be, to deal with the reality, before we feel lighter again. It’s a process.

            However, a funk can also be broken up with laughter, so maybe the Comedy Club calls ya!:-)

          18. Caroline is Fine
            I have the text all written out in my mind. Help me from sending it. ET out of control. Missing bad. That F^*^*ing car hoover did me in.

          19. Kim: You would laugh, if you knew where I was now…but I can only type a few quick lines. DO NOT send that text, at least wait for 5 hours, please, until I can write back-and-forth with you. I leave you with this thought: Do you want ME to call the Greater?…Because I feel incredibly guilty right now… I have been feeling like: “I’ll just call him quick, to make sure he really is ok.”

            I feel like a total creep, for NOT checking on him. That is my ET (and guilt problem)…. it is your ET too. I’ll be screwed if I do that–I’ll make it so much harder on myself, as will you, if you send that. Do not undo your progress!!

            I’ll be back as soon as I can… but do NOT do it! You will regret it later, Kim. As would I…

          20. Caroline-is-Fine
            That is where I am kinda too. I always felt guilty for basically ghosting him. I know that would crush me. I know it is the empath in me. I like you just want to say “HI, sorry I had to leave for a bit. I missed you while I was gone. Have a nice trip in August and have a Happy Birthday.”
            I kinda feel like you…….why cant I just be an NISS? I think HG said once you are am IP you never are a NI.
            I will wait for you….but I make no promises even after we talk.

          21. Kim,
            A few logic thoughts:
            1) You did NOT “ghost” him. You ended a narcissistic entanglement that was harmful to you. He’s not “crushed,” as he has no emotional attachment to you…I know that is hard to hear, but it’s the reality. Instead, he is looking for fuel, and he’ll dip into yours IF he can. But after he does, where does that leave you? At his mercy… and narcissists are not merciful.
            2) If you contact him, what will happen? You’ll be back in an unhealthy entanglement again, with a narcissist who is a serial cheater. So what will be in store for you? More pain, and the addiction you have to him will get pumped up. You may get a “high,” but coming back down off that will be twice as painful. I do not want that for you, my friend.
            3) When you consulted with HG, I’m sure he told you some hard-to-hear aspects of NC…have you done all he suggested? If not, are there aspects you are holding onto because you want to keep (however loose) a tie to the narcissist? You don’t need to share with me… but be as honest as you can with yourself.

            [As for me, I do have a false guilt issue, related to something tragic that happened in my childhood…& even though I never told the Greater about it, it’s obvious he was able to pinpoint my weak spot… however, I’m very aware of it now, which helps a great deal; I’m also realizing the family of the narcissist is thinking if I was just his IPPS again, all would be swell. Of course, he’s manipulating them, and they don’t get the position they put me in, but it’s my job to be kind, assertive and firm, even in the face of his supposed “emergencies” (gotta say, hard to know what’s a real emergency & what’s a manipulation by him/lying liars will lie!)… So, I have to know — really know in my heart — that I have been decent about all & stay with my NC, regardless of inner or outer pressure. I’ve got nothing to guilt myself over, which I keep reminding myself. I always want everything to be all nice, warm and end well… that is not going to happen here, as the narcissist won’t allow it. He knows I want that, so he’s going to hope I eventually give in. No, I won’t. I can’t control him showing up at my work — but the rest I can].

          22. Caroline is Fine,
            Typing with my wine cooler and popcorn. This is going to be a long reply so get comfy
            1. In my mind it is ghosting him. It is what I would expect from him….to just disappear. I should have at least said “i dont want to do this anymore” before I blocked him. I did not need to wait for a reply but I have always felt that was the wrong way to do it and made me no better than him.
            2. where do I start. All of my relationships have been either with “attached”people or like the one I had with my N where it was just talking, going out occasionally, sex. That is what I guess I am used to. We both got something out of the relationship whether it was companionship, laughs, sex…whatever. KInda the same with me and N except what he gets out of it is called fuel.
            I have been married 2 times and I cheated on both of them. I guess I am a dirty empath since it really doesn’t matter to me.
            I am going to answer the “flyer” question here also. You know exactly what my ET is telling me about it. I am not crazy enough to think it has anything to do with him loving me but it made me feel like my fuel is worth a hoover. That he “cared” (dont throw up) enough to look for me and use some energy to tell me he was watching. I have also said for quite some time that he was never mean to me. Except for when I didnt know the rules and got a corrective devaluation that I did not do anything with he has never ignored me, has always shown up for “dates”, I cant really speak to a silent treatment either )except in the candidate stage…those dang tests) and I know what he is…makes him sound like a creature from the black lagoon….but he cant help it anymore than HG or your G can. Maybe I need him to be
            an asshole to me and really piss me off so I can tell him to F off.
            He has told me he doesnt do emotions……..but we have conversations and he asks me about my school (when I was going) he asks me about my work promotion and if I still like my new boss. He is military and both my sons were so we talk about that (I have verified somethings he has told me with a friend that is in the military and he has not lied about what he said.) We talk about his kids and I have been about the verify a lot from their FB pages. I get (got) more attention as a DS then I did as a candidate because there are no tests. He knows I know he is married so now when I ask him what his plans are for the weekend, he tells me. When I was a candidate I was made to feel that that was his time and I was not allowed to ask. When I was a candidate I never heard from him on the weekends…as a DS I do (did) all the time. Don’t know if they were all crumbs because they happen a lot of times. Kinda like if I said to you “Hey CIF…what are you doing today?” “Hey Kim,,,,I am going to blah and blah and blah.” “Ok CIF have a good time’. “Hey KIm…how was school yesterday”>>>> and so on. Regular check in conversations.
            SO…….my ET is either completely out of wack and I am still very addicted or I am completely crazy. (sorry this is rambling….typing as thoughts come to me).
            And to be completely honest as I always try to be, I guess that yes……there are aspects of the N I want to hold onto. Not sure I really ever wanted to let go.
            I do wish you luck in your endeavor with your G. You were with him a long time and I am sure his family misses you. Do for you C…not for others.
            I just don’t know if I am ready to let go……..maybe need to do for Kim and not for the masses. I would have no one to blame but myself.

          23. Kim,
            You’re definitely not crazy, my friend.

            Are you addicted to a narcissist? In my humble opinion, you really are… but what you decide to do next is most definitely your choice to make. It always was. I’m here to support you in any way I possibly can, but really, what I’ve tried to do most is just help you see that you’ve got (inside of you) what you need, to do what’s right/best for you… but what is right has to come from you. I understand that very well.

            Don’t worry about disappointing me (I understand what’s going on/”disappointment” is not the feeling I would have)… or other posters… or even HG. The only person you need to look at is yourself. I’m really only concerned about you disappointing yourself, or putting yourself in deeper emotional harm’s way.

            I understand about the narcissist not doing enough overt things to upset you, but it’s still a slow chipping away, which some may argue is worse & something to be pissed about just as much… in the relationship with the G, he handled me pretty “carefully” and manipulated in the harsher way around him, but I still consider that merciless. Is stealth abuse better? I don’t know. It still has an impact.

            But I guess, for me, it doesn’t matter too much about the details of their narcissistic operations; I look at more simply….

            What I ask myself is: Can I trust this person? What would I get out of this relationship verses what I care/invest? Would staying be worth it — at what cost? Can I predict any degree of emotional safety?

            My bottom line: What would happen to me? Will it build me up or tear me down? How will it change me?

            So again, it’s down to what you think about it. I really do appreciate your honesty with me. All I would ask is that you continue to be very honest with yourself. This isn’t about me, with the exception that I care about you, so I try to help. For me, the key to freedom is listening to your own inner voice.

            When my childhood friend was murdered, I wasn’t there to be able to help her. I’ve given that a lot of thought lately. I was able to save myself, but I couldn’t affect her outcome.

            I lived. But I don’t feel guilty about that aspect…

            She would have told me to do just that — go on — in a teasing, affectionate way. She had street smarts, an edge to her, and a pretty astounding maturity for her age; she seemed a good 5 years older. One thing she occasionally called me was “Golden.” (How’s that for irony?) She would have said to me: “I died. You didn’t! How much more time are you going to waste thinking about it? You know I wouldn’t be doing that — I’d be at the beach! Don’t *you* have a bunch of golden things to be doing, Golden?”

            Before and after losing her, I’ve lived my life full-out. I do have a joyous spirit, despite a handful of tragedies and the narcissist encounter.

            Thanks for helping me see something, about guilt, Kim. I was so very sad that she died, but never upset that I lived. My inner voice told me how to… talked to/comforted me long after that… and told me to move on, and how to, without losing myself.

            I just never heard HER voice. But now I have…I just needed to hear what she would have said to me. I feel like I have now. It should help me take another step in working on the guilt monkey that sometimes hops on my back. (Of course, I’ve got one highly narcissistic parent, so it’s not like I am ever going to be home free on that issue. Lol)

            Thanks, Kim… for being part of helping me untangle that.

            I hope you know I care about you very much. I hope you don’t get hurt, whatever it is you decide to do… and I’m always here — I’m always your friend. Always.


          24. Caroline is Fine,
            My pleasure to help you with your journey.
            I have been on auto pilot for about a week. I have never had this hard of a time with any decision I have had to make.
            SO…I have decide that for right now I will not send a text and just let, as they say, nature take its course.
            I do have to admit that I unblocked him from my phone before my car decided it needed a sandwich (wink wink). He will not electronically hoover me. His pattern is to passive hoover me until I give in and contact him. As HG says….The king does not come to you, you go to the king…. (eye roll)
            For my own sanity and some peace of mind right now as I was literally driving myself nuts,I am going to just let it be. IF I get hoovered, I take it that day with how I feel. Since he is gone for a month, my ET should lessen enough to where my LT can get a better hold on me.
            I agree completely with you that I am addicted to him. And with any drug, the withdrawal is brutal. I have to do this my way and cut myself some slack.
            So that is my decision for ME right now.
            You are an angel to help me with this and just listen. I am off work for 4 days now. I will keep in touch.
            I do want me for me but until I can end this I have nothing to give any one else.

          25. I can safely say: We ve all been there and understand.

            Done that. Got the t-shirt.
            Even met Dana Carvey.

          26. Narcs only want you (and me) as a member of his harem.

            Even if he moves in with you.

            Just some cold logic. Might help against the cravings.

            Hope you’re doing alright.

          27. cb. Thanks. Logic at a very low point right now. ET winning by a mile. But I guess there is enough logic there to come to someone for help.

          28. Hi Kim e

            Snap out of it!!!

            But seriously…
            Yes, you’re logic is fighting for you. It had you come here and thats how you know what you’re contemplating is that old con ET wanting you to unravel and have to start all over. I’m glad you’ve been so honest in how you’re feeling and have reached out. Kim let your brain protect what you’ve worked so long and hard for and what your heart wants to squander away in just a few minutes and for nothing.

          29. HI NA and Caroline-Is-Fine
            I felt so much lighter last night after my melt down. Tho I know every thing I typed is true, I also realize it is 97% ET.
            I am hoping that August is better as he if gone and the hyper vigilance will calm down.
            Need to start my talking to myself again and stopping the ET before it becomes overwhelming.
            Enjoy your day.

          30. Kim e, Hope you don’t mind me jumping in but when I was going through what you are going through, and in a similar type of N relationship, I started writing it all out when my ET would get too high and I was afraid of breaking NC. It became a sort of mood journal and I began to see patterns to when I would miss him and then I knew why. Maybe that will help you too, especially as there is a lag time here with comments and responses.

            Eventually I broke NC anyway and tried to be an NISS (aka ‘friend’). The friend thing lasted for only a few months before there was a massive blow up. What HG says is true. Once an IP, always an IP.

            When I imagine breaking NC now (it’s been over a year), I can also imagine his reaction – oh hi, how are you (X person whose name I have forgotten)? As if I were just another interchangeable fuel source. I used to think that if I was thinking about him, he must be thinking about me too (the constant hoovers, once I was aware of them, did not help). But in reality, we are sitting here thinking of them but they are not sitting there thinking of us.

          31. SMH. I don’t mind you jumping in at all. The more the merrier.
            Why is it do you think the NISS doesn’t work after being an IPSS?
            Thanks for your input

          32. Because you can never be a NISS (even though you are treated as such) because your emotional thinking corrupts your Love Devotee trait and you will always hanker for the intimacy that occurred. The narcissist of course treats you like a friend and then the next time you come off the shelf will bed you, if that is what is necessary to exert control and gain fuel. You cannot ‘be friends’ with a narcissist after being an IPPS or IPSS.

          33. HG, Don’t you think it depends on whether you escaped or were discarded? I escaped, and made the decision not to sleep with him anymore. I found, however, that not only did he keep trying (without success) but that his behaviors otherwise were the same as when I was IPSS. He was still utterly self-absorbed, for instance. He still expected me to read his mind. He still gave me a silent treatment, etc. Kim e – if you wouldn’t put up with narc behavior from a friend, you won’t tolerate it from your narc either. He will just keep on manipulating you – maybe without the sex (if you escaped and decided not to sleep with him anymore and can stick to that) but with all of the other behaviors. He will have the same expectations of total devotion from you and total control from him.

          34. No, it matters not whether you escaped or were disengaged from. If you were disengaged from you are more likely to be left alone for a period of time whilst the narcissist is engaged in the new golden period with a new IPPS or is focussed on IPSSs, but subject to the HT and HEC, you will be hoovered and sex is likely to be used. Even if it is not, your feelings (governed by ET) will remain such that you will crave intimacy even when the narcissist is offering non-intimacy and thus it cannot work. If you escaped, the same applies, albeit the hoovering will come far sooner.

          35. OK well my experience felt different. I escaped, he hoovered immediately and often, I allowed us to be ‘friends.’ He would try to be intimate and I would leave the conversation, because I really did not want that with him anymore. But since it all blew up rather quickly – perhaps because I was not allowing the seduction to happen – it might have been that we just did not reach the point where he was able to persuade me again. Previous to that escape, it had been very easy for him to get me back. I tried to be gentle about it – not rejecting you, I said, only the situation. Perhaps that was my mistake. I should have said, I am not attracted to you anymore.

            What happens in the scenario where the N tries to re-engage intimately but the E rejects it? Does the N lose interest in the E forever or does he try again forever? I suspect you will say that he will try again forever because the N relationship is forever and once an IP, always an IP. It seems to me that Ns simply do not take no for an answer – that their narcissism will not allow them to acknowledge rejection.

            Has a woman you were really, really interested in ever rejected your advances, HG?

          36. See, I cannot know whether that is true because your narcissism probably makes it impossible for you to be aware when someone is not interested. That makes sense. And it makes sense that MRN was unaware that I was no longer interested in the intimate part of our relationship because he could not accept what I told him.

          37. I’m as interested in you as I am in the other Greater. Just as much, HG!


          38. lol proved my point. I dunno. Maybe they are faithful to their partner? Maybe they’re gay? Maybe they want someone their own age? Maybe your pheromones are off for them? Maybe they don’t like blondes? Lots of reasons!!

          39. Makes sense…I’ve always known that he thinks if he can just get me alone, he can gain control. I’d never put myself in that situation. I’m not fearful of being seduced; instead, I’m a little fearful of him being aggressive, in that way.

          40. True Caroline, he never got me alone once I escaped. He might have but I inadvertently wounded him before that could happen. The next time we saw each other, which was also the last time, I was so furious that it surely was not the time to try seduction, though he did hug me twice.

          41. I don’t know why that made me laugh, SMH — that he “hugged you twice” — I think I’ve been in a too-serious mood lately & NEEDED to laugh. I’m just trying to imagine your feisty self, as he hugs you — not once, but (geez) twice! (I’m telling you, when I am super pissed off and a guy tries to hug me, I will say please do NOT, but if they persist, watch out, dude…I do not like to be touched when I’m mad — I mean, do NOT touch me — I find it suffocating — get out of here with your huggy stuff, Lol). The Greater was not a hugger, so he’d just stand there look at me, fascinated….lol

            Forgive me for forgetting, is he a midrange, SMH? How long have you been NC again?

          42. Caroline,

            You are right. It is funny!! I didn’t really let him – I mean I did not hug him back – I just stood there. The only other time he hugged me like that, we had also split up. He did the same thing both times – hugged and then future faked. On neither occasion did I express the least interest in or need to see him again but in both instances he appeared to need to ‘comfort’ me (hugs and promises).

            I think I used to get so incredulous at the things he would do and say that half the time I wouldn’t know how to react.

            Mid-ranger all the way. 15 months NC now and no hoovers that I am aware of since about March.

          43. SMH,
            “Incredulous” is right… such weird stuff. For instance…

            I didn’t get a lot of silent treatments, but the ones I got were odd. I was away at college, and he’d often ask me to call him at night, on a landline at his lake house… after awhile, he started doing this thing where he’d just go totally, abruptly silent, in the middle of our convo — and, of course, I’d say his name over & over/”Hello?” etc…nothing. I’d hang up and call back — busy signal. It’s more maddening than it may seem. It’s like I knew, in my gut, he didn’t just fall asleep, but I couldn’t make sense of it. The first time he did that, I got all worried, calling on and off for a hour or two before finally falling asleep… when I woke up for class, I called right away — and his phone was back on (oh, good — he’s not dead)…but he was already at work, so it wasn’t until a day or so later I could even ask him WTH? He’d just blow it off like, “Oh, I must have fallen asleep.” WTH? So finally, one evening at college when he pulled that again (#6 I think), I’d HAD it. My brain had to know what was going on…

            So it’s 8 p.m. at night — I’m about 2 hours away — and like a nutty empath, I leave college and drive to his house…I get there, let myself in through the back porch door… see him in the den doing paperwork stuff while watching TV…I go to his bedroom, where one of 3 of the landline phones are, and there is the one phone on the nightstand — OFF THE HOOK. I unplug it… march into the den with the phone — astonished look on his face (priceless!) — I leave the house, as he follows me outside… I walk down the hill to the dock… stand down on the dock with a bright light shining down on me, in all my glory… and…

            I pitch the phone as far as I can into the lake, turn around and yell: “YOUR PHONE’S NOT WORKING!”

            I had never seen him laugh that much.

            You know what his “reason” for that was?

            “I sometimes don’t feel like talking.”

            Oh really.

          44. Caroline, That is really bizarre and pretty funny what you did. What was he thinking? I’ll just put the phone down because there is no one at the other end anyway?? Honestly, I do believe that we do not exist for them at all, and your story proves it.

            MRN used to disappear in the middle of conversations all the time too. Those were email convos rather than phone ones, and I would never send follow up messages, but same thing. Once he did it to me after days of chit chat while he was traveling. As I recall, he finally landed in London (I was in NYC), asked me a question, I answered, and crickets. Three weeks later he pops back up – how are you? After years of this, I said to him ‘WHO does that?’ PSYCHOPATHS, that’s who!

          45. SMH,
            Yep, it’s pretty laughable now to us, but when you’re in it, it’s this multiplying insidious behavior that starts weighing on your mind after awhile.

            When I showed up that night, he did later say, “Well, I got you to come home, didn’t I?” At the time, I thought he was “cute joking,” but maybe that was it, who really knows? I can just as easily see it being other things, besides that… sheer attention… to get a rise out of me (gee, that worked)… to create anxiety/confusion…a mini-punishment for God knows what…or just for the sheer “fun” of it. Yes, pretty crazy.

            But the gut is a wonderful thing. Because whether it was his words ringing false or little strange things he did, I think I did catch most of that, and even he would notice I did — like my brain was screaming, “This is hinky!”, and he’d see that look on my face. What I didn’t understand was what it actually was I was dealing with, and I was super busy & would brush lots of that little stuff aside, mainly because I was invested in that relationship in a different way than any other one I’d ever had (read between the lines)…so it made me strive extra hard to “work it out.” I can’t even tell you how many times I broke up with him (even I started to feel ridiculous doing it), but because he had a certain way about getting me back & because it was a very serious deal for me emotionally… well, 3 years I stayed in the FR, until I got out for good.

            Speaking of…I forgot to congratulate you on your lengthy NC. GO YOU! Since Kim’s probably reading on here, how long would you say it took for your ET to take a real nosedive… and what helped you stick to your NC the most?

          46. Hi Caroline is Fine and SMH,
            YEP//////Caroline is correct. I am here !!!!!!
            I had a weird dream a couple weeks ago about the N. He was standing looking me and he started to turn to the side…..not with his feet but like float. The more he turned I realized that his front and back were there but he was EMPTY in the middle. I can still vividly see it. My logic is working just fine in the background…..LOL
            Yes…..SMH. I would be interested. You to Caroline. How long did it take and what was the one thing that caused the turning point?
            Also, did you girls find a pattern in his hoovering? I was just wondering if since they seem to have a seduction pattern, if the hoover pattern followed also. I know our placement in the matrix might be different….I was a DS at the end…….and I know (think) that makes a difference in the hoovers.
            HI HG!!!!!!!
            Gotta run…place to go……ET to get rid of. Talk to you later.

          47. Way to outmaneuver your ET, Kim!:)

            As for your question, his Hoover mode always seems to be showing up in person. When I was in the FR & when we’d broken up (again&again), I did notice a distinct pattern to it. He’d call and hang up, almost exactly a week before he showed up at my door (even after college, I worked/lived a good 1-2 hours away from him). I always knew it was him hanging up on me – just sensed it…

            It’s almost like he was prepping me for his return, lol… and it would have been really swell if I could have resisted those overtures JUST once. (I’m a sucker for good-looking & smart at my door, and he was always full of charm & gentleness. Curses, Red Baron!!)

            Looking back, I cannot believe it didn’t occur to me that was such an unhealthy, weird pattern of behavior. I just thought of it as us being this very “passionate” couple. Major ET, and thankfully, my head cleared from that.

          48. Kim e and Caroline, Long process. I also ‘broke up’ with MRN (IPSS) five or six times before it stuck. It only stuck the final time because I went six months NC, which allowed my ET to calm down. Those six months were super difficult – Kim e, I think that is what you are going through now. That is when I wrote my mood journal and really began to see the patterns in my own ET.

            After those six months, we were back in touch and he tried to re-ensnare me. I watched him very closely for two weeks, observed his behavioral patterns (that insidious behavior you speak of Caroline) and declined to return. It wasn’t hard really. We even saw each other, had a really sweet time, and I still said no. A week later came the IGH, just as HG says (I hadn’t yet found HG at that point). We then tried to be friends but that only lasted for about six weeks before I inadvertently wounded him and got an ST in response, which is when I found this site. A huge blow up followed (super nova?) and, long story short, I made him come over to my place and delete all of our email correspondence from his account while I watched. That was my goodbye (he hugged me twice). I told him he was a psychopath and had a personality disorder!!

            ET was still high for awhile and I then told IPPS (anonymously) because I needed him out of my life. He hoovered incessantly, he imbalanced me, he was demanding, he wanted attention, he did not care about me at all it was all about him. But my sister was ill (I never told him) and then she died during this period (I did not tell him), and so MRN ceased to matter. I had a few dreams, there were hoovers (the last one that I know of was probably around March). Until recently I periodically missed him but I dated someone else all last fall, and that helped. And then I got interested in someone else this spring, and that helped too. I think the last time I suddenly missed him was about two months ago.

            From the six months NC to now has been almost two years, the same amount of time as the FR. I know it sounds daunting, especially to you, Kim e (Caroline knows) but you don’t stop living your life during NC. You use the time to rebuild and to fill in the holes with other people and things. Go on some dates, take a trip, anything to get your mind off of him and let the brain chemicals rest and reset.

            The hoover pattern – well, I did not know about the hoovers for a long time. During our six months NC, I noticed that someone visited my LinkedIn every month anonymously. I figured it was him – he had already hoovered me hard on a dating site during one of our hiatuses, and then I discovered two fake Facebook profiles that I knew were his. I called him out on the LinkedIn stuff and it eventually stopped (well, it mostly stopped as soon as we were back in touch after the six months NC, which is how I knew it was him). I accused him of stalking me on FB. I had a slew of fake friend requests with little hints several months ago. Right now I have five friend requests from people I do not know but none of them are him because I now know what his fake FB friend requests are like. So, he has stalked me on three online platforms – the only ones I have ever been on.

            Kim e, MRN and I live in different countries now. It is very different from your situation. There is no chance that we will run into each other and since I told IPPS and nixed our main avenue of communication, I think I pretty much shut him down for good. I know what HG would say but MRN is a midranger and doesn’t want too much of a challenge. I am sure he has plenty of other fuel sources and does not need me to possibly bit his head off or tell IPPS again if he dares to contact me!!

          49. SMH (Kim too),

            I’m so sorry about your sister.:( Never easy, to lose a loved one, and a sibling… that’s really hard. My sympathies.x

            Nicely done, on getting away from the Mid-ranger. Very gutsy/strong! Also, good advice on keeping life full of life. :) Sometimes you’ll have to force the effort, Kim… because you may not always feel up to it – but once you do, it gets easier, and you start to look forward to more & more in your life again. It takes time, and you just have to get/keep the ball rolling, like how you are going out with friends to the comedy club. :) Narcissists take up so much of our emotional/thought energy & focus, so our world gets small in ways that we don’t realize until later–and it’s like we’re so distracted by them that it sucks out full enjoyment of other stuff. It’s hard to enjoy much when our minds are so clouded with dealing with their antics!

            So true, that Greaters don’t mind a challenge…I think they’re overall more fearless on Hoovers too (well, just my experience I guess). And, I have to say, there’s a calculation/patience where they seem to enjoy playing an ongoing cat/mouse game… again, speaking for myself, it can be unnerving.

          50. Thanks, Caroline. That whole period was so hard – within a matter of weeks, I saw MRN for the last time, told IPPS, and my sister died. I don’t know how I got through it except that MRN did not matter anymore – I had to take care of my sister and so my brain simply had no space for him. Sometimes I guess it takes something intense and tragic (or wonderful could work too) to recolonize that space in your head. It’s the every day-ness that makes NC difficult.

            What you say about the ongoing cat and mouse game struck me, because as much as I like to think I slammed the lid on MRN, who is not a Greater (though might be an UMR) part of me feels like this is just a long drawn out period of NC/shelving – to him, I am on the shelf and at any time I could come off it (to him). To me, this might just be a long period of NC, which I have always broken before. It truly is never over…right? It is unnerving. xx

          51. SMH,
            Yeah, I do understand that concept, but I still struggle with it, because I’m pretty stubborn & want the “over” to be crystal clear… it irritates me to feel another human being would deign think they can control the over-ness/pop up unexpectedly (yes, all my fault for going into the lion’s den again, but still). Like now, I feel a power struggle vibe left in the air (I won’t get into the last things he said to me, but it’d be easy for you to see why I feel this way)… so I just feel ill at ease right now. But days turn into weeks, & then months, so time strengthens our resolve + peace, in many ways.

            It’s important that we live our lives, but are still aware about the possibilities with narcville, like HG cautions. That’s a tricky thing to balance, at times.

          52. SMH,
            Good deal. I get angst-like nightmares when I’m emotionally stressed, so I totally understand. My day was great – hope yours was too.:)

          53. Caroline, Glad you had a good day. I had #MondayFunDay – crazed trip to the dump with one of my favorite people (I am moving), wine in the garden with my neighbours, visit with exH and son of one of my best friends, who left them both to return to her home country but everyone gets along more or less fine. All my friends are like this. I really don’t have any friends who are married and in traditional relationships. When I was married (twice), I felt like I was missing out on life.

          54. I love your MondayFunDay, SMH…and don’t have a BluesDayTuesday ;-) Moving is usually a pretty big hassle, so wine in the garden is perfect.

          55. Caroline,

            I am responding to your comment about escaping vs being discarded but I can’t find it in my email so cannot reply directly to it. It made me think, however – I have always had a hard time breaking up with someone. I MUCH prefer to be dumped. It is easier. My pattern is to push the other person into dumping me so that I do not have to do it. I even did that with my exLesserH (abusive, including violent) – I would leave him for longer and longer periods each year. I then suggested that we separate. During my final escape, during the five months I was away, he found new supply. I gave it a few months and then let him decide if he wanted a divorce. I remember the moment that he told me he did – I was with a friend (we were texting – classic narc behavior). I felt this HUGE weight lifted off my shoulders. Two months later, I met MRN. I have to laugh now because all of this is so clear to me but back then, what a muddle. I did not know that exH was a Lesser or that MRN was a mid-ranger.

            Anyway, I think it is all about the GUILT we have discussed before. When we escape, we feel guilty, and that is why we always go back, so I returned to ExH at least a dozen times and to MRN five times. We especially feel guilty if the narc lets us go without a fight, which MRN always did (exL would whine and send me emails about how miserable he was without me).

            I remember the first time I escaped MRN – a month after I met him. I still did not know there was anything particularly wrong with him except that I sensed he was controlling and I already felt that I was in limbo with him. Since exLH lived his life in limbo, I recognized the state. I did not know about IPPS. I sent MRN a long ‘break up’ email and added that I was leaving the country anyway for a few months, something I had not told him. He responded immediately and very politely, but I sensed that he was hurt (whether I was sensing wounded pride or whatever – I sensed something). So of course i felt GUILTY and began to second guess myself. That started a whole pattern of leaving and returning, leaving and returning.

            Maybe it is not so much about hoping things will change with them as it is about US not being able to absolve ourselves of responsibility.

            Sorry this is so long but your comment really got me thinking. I am back in the states now and I was dating someone last fall who I also dumped. I go back and forth about whether to contact him but yesterday I decided that I just didn’t like him that much and that was okay. He deserved to be dumped. Maybe that is progress…though I still feel some residual guilt about MRN and even about married work guy (leaving that money under his door). Not about exLH because he made the final decision. But MRN and MWG did not. I did.

            What is the guilt about? Maybe it is society that tells women they were put on this earth to cater to men? When we fail at that task we feel worthless?

          56. SMH,

            Found it! It was bugging me to lose a comment, so I went through this entire thread. Real quick, but I loved your reflections, and I want to get back to you on one aspect of guilt later, but…

            If you asked the Greater about how much I “cater to men,” he’d laugh his head off… then he’d most assuredly tell you I’m a commitment-phob who is so busy with way too many things that I may actually forget I’m even in a relationship. Seriously, that’s his supposed take on it (and/or what he says for narcissistic reasons). This is not true, but believe me, he has his “facts” that he utilizes to bring others to his fantastical conclusion whenever he deems necessary… it’s the only way he has ever smeared me to other people (his family/friends), and I am shocked at how effective this pity play has worked for him. It used to make me feel absolutely terrible (especially since people would talk to me about it!), but I’m over it. It is not a good feeling when you care so much about people & someone makes you out to be some man-eater. It’s silly — similar to saying Mary Poppins abuses children — come on now, really?? However, I have never bothered to defend myself, except to as calmly as possible (not always succeeded) answer briefly & truthfully, whenever someone asked a direct question on this, and leave it…because if people just take that hogwash as gospel truth, well, whatever…I know the truth – good enough.

            I’m off to an obligation now… gosh, I hope I don’t forget I’m in a relationship with a great guy. Lol

            Catch ya back on the thread re: guilty (non-pleasures) later. ;-)

          57. Just wanted to add something for Kim-e, and that is that when you feel that ET coming on, even though you are living your life to its fullest, just make sure to tell yourself over and over that it will pass and there is always tomorrow. If you are tempted to contact your narc, there is always tomorrow – I find that this in itself lowers my ET. When tomorrow comes, and your ET is lowered, you won’t feel so compelled.

          58. SMH,
            Thank you. Sometimes the ET is so strong it is painful. But just like hemorrhoids…this too shall pass!!!!!!!!

          59. Ha, images like that can work too, Kim-e! I think of mine as being a mentally challenged boy child or an open oozing sore.

          60. Caroline is Fine and SMH,
            Saturday night at 1130 in my world and I am watching Queer Eye…….LOL. Love this show.
            SMH…my condolences for the loss of your sister. I cannot even imagine.
            Ladies, Right now I am hoping August takes about 6 months since he will be gone for it. I do write stuff down and it does help. At this stage, I could be sucked back in very easily specially if I saw him. But like I told Caroline I have to be gentle with myself and realize set backs will happen. Took me 6 or 7 times to quit smoking. Kicked myself every time I started again but kept trying. People used to say to me “dont you feel better when you aren’t smoking?” My reply was “I noticed how bad I felt when I started again”. Guess it is the same thing with my N. I know if I start again eventually it will catch up to me. Guess we all have our breaking point where enough is enough. Not sure I am there yet. Taking it a day….shit….an hour at a time and not thinking about it.
            I did send into HG for the Empath Detector to see why I was so easily ensnared. I was always the one that put up with no crap from anyone and could leave without turning back. The relationship I had before N was for 6 years and I had not dated for 10. If a male approached me I would literally back away. With the N, I did not back away. Hope maybe to get some answers from HG and his magic Empath Detector.
            Guess I cant really say I am NC anymore either……………….I am truly addicted……….but working on it.
            Thanks ladies…smoochies……..Out for a walk in the heat and nature tomorrow. Planning a trip to Spain and Madrid next year. Moving on yet stuck…what a strange thing.

          61. Knowing more with the Empath detector is a good idea, Kim~and I LOVE you planning a big trip away next year. That will do you much good! I want to hear all about it.

            I’m up & headed out soon for a fun group excursion, about 2 hours away… even *farther* away from the G, who is already very far from me geographically already (SO thankful for that). :) He “passes through” my area with business about 2 scheduled times a year (though it would make a lot more sense if he flew the whole way, so that explains a lot right there). I have evaded him each & every one of those trips, which makes me feel more secure/empowered each time… but somewhere in his swirling mind of darkness, I feel like he’s getting more aggravated with me. I say “aggravated” because it sounds nicer than what he’s probably feeling, lol… but I try not to dwell on it…

            I’m free from him in the way that matters most to me, so that is what I focus on. Make it a good day, Kim & SMH.:)


          62. Kim e, I haven’t done the empath detector but I have to wonder too. I am not normally so easily manipulated. I once told MRN that I wouldn’t put up with his shit from anyone else. He laughed. But it was true. I really just miss the friendship, such as it was, sometimes. I mean for all the crap we went through, we did get to know each other pretty damned well. He had this thing about being close – he would often mention, I don’t feel close to X, I feel closer to you now, etc, so I know he’s aware that he has a really hard time attaching to people. He would also explain that he had a very narrow range of emotions, did not understand other people’s, and was ‘not that complicated.’ I really do think that his operating system was quite superficial, just as HG describes it. He wasn’t plotting and planning. He was just seeking fuel and I happened to be there in his sight-lines. It’s such a different way of being that it’s really nothing that we can resolve as empaths, no matter what sort we are, though I guess we can learn to stay out of the way. PSE wrote something along the lines of sitting down for a coffee and discussing narcissism with a narc (what was it you wrote PSE? It was funny and spot on – I have to run and cannot look for it now).

          63. HG. Why is it that a N can’t disengage if I escaped? Maybe I do not understand the meaning of disengage in this dynamic. What does it truly mean when a N disengages?

            Your humble empath

          64. If you leave the narcissist, you escape. Therefore the narcissist cannot disengage because you ´got in first´. (I do not say that you disengage from the narcissist, I use escape instead because differentiation in this way is clearer and reduces the risk of confusion.
            You escape the narcissist. The narcissist disengages from you. It is stated thus because of the concept of control. You escape the control. The narcissist relinquishes the control. You do not relinquish control because you do not operate through a need for control over other people.
            If the narcissist leaves you, blocks you etc, that is disengagement.

          65. Oh man… that sinking feeling, reading that reply to Kim.

            It just hit me that I continue to have a pattern of escaping this narcissist…and now taking that more into account, how HE behaves makes a lot more sense. I went back in temporarily, to get him into therapy (yes, I get that I should maybe have my own head examined for doing that)…but then I escaped AGAIN (from his perspective). I know, it’s a simple thought, but it’s hitting me differently today.

            Gawd. It’s almost like I need to let him dump/reject ME. Really. That may help. Maybe that would alter the course finally, where I feel like I’m always the former, escaped IPPS (AKA, “The one that got away”) — and he’s trying, through the years, to regain control of me. He’s persistent.

            I get it, how you just said that, HG — it’s about control on the narc side — but not for empaths/me, as I don’t think like that – don’t make decisions from a control standpoint…I just always have gotten this overwhelming feeling to “get out” with him when I need to, like self-protection, before it gets bad — and that’s what I have consistently done, since FR & through years of Hoovers. But to him, I just keep “getting in first.”

            I need to give this more thought.

          66. Caroline, now I have found the comment I wanted to respond to. I responded to it on this post but another thread. I hope you see it!

          67. SMH,
            Hey, doll~I’ll be back on later tonight. I can’t remember all of my last post… but I know it was partially about a (daydreaming) harebrained scheme to make the Greater reject me so he’d stop turning up in my life…which goes right up there in the “dangerous/really bad idea column.”

            I’ll look through the thread for your comment tonight, SMH. I’m traveling again, starting Sunday, which is perfect timing to hit the “pause” button for me. What’s happening now, with the G, is just an annoyance — no need to make it into a more difficult/tangled problem. I’m not doing anything to make me less safe, re: the G.

          68. No worries, darling Caroline. I just had a thought and of course had to write it out (late and in a jet lagged state)! I am running out of posts as I’ve barely been on here the past few weeks – at least nothing compared to my ‘normal’. I’d better follow some new posts so my inbox isn’t suddenly empty! I look forward to reading your thoughts later on. xo

          69. SMH,
            I think my other note to you (from yesterday) got lost in cyberville…I’ll write you back while traveling again, as I am leaving in the wee hours tomorrow. I like getting away. It gives me some time in my life to reflect.

            I think (from the site comment box) that a lot of peeps are over on that “Big Lies” results page (not a series I watched…I also never watched “Revenge,” and I’m finally loading it up on my device, to watch in downtime while traveling — did you see the Revenge series/enjoy it?)
            Caroline xx

          70. Hi Caroline, I like getting away too and am on the road again on Monday but this time not that far.

            I noticed the BLL thread but I haven’t had a chance to watch the 2nd series yet (and have forgotten a lot of the 1st, though I really liked it) so haven’t engaged.

            Not sure what you mean by Revenge series – I do not know it. Is that TV/streaming or is it HG? No rush to answer and safe travels to you!!

          71. SMH,
            I know HG probably has his own ongoing revenge series in real life (oh my/oh dear), but I was referring to the “Revenge” TV series, starring Madeleine Stowe and Emily VanCamp (they’re great in it). It’s holding my interest so far, but one of my friends told me in gets a little wacky after Season 3. The show first débuted in 2011, but I just never caught it. It’s based off the novel “The Count of Monte Cristo.” I think you’d like it.

            Looks like the other message I wrote back to you — and the one to Kim — are both gone for good. I’ll rewrite/post them while traveling! :)

          72. Hi, SMH :)
            Work-related road trippin’ today (or just trippin’)…I can’t find your other post, but it inspired me to jot down all the ways the G has tried to guilt me, back from the FR, up until now. I think it will be helpful to see, in black-and-white.

            Our own guilty conscience is certainly a good thing — our morals/values & beliefs/sense of self, guiding us to clarity of right/wrong… but when others impose or manipulate guilt upon us, for their own benefit — another thing entirely.

            So…I got to thinking about the ways the G has tried to guilt me. I bought myself a special notebook, with a beautiful rose garden on the cover… and I’m going to methodically detail the G’s guilt ploys. I’m already stunned at how many there are, which is why I wanted to do this — to dig up ones I’ve not yet reflected on, as it gives me more clarity. I think I’m gonna need a second notebook. ;-)

            I’ll send this and see if it even goes through… we (co-workers & I) are taking turns picking an hour of music we want to hear on SiriusXM, so we’re now listening to 1970s music…. Barry’s up: “Her name was Lola, she was a showgirl, with yellow feathers in her hair, and her dress cut down to there…”

            Break out the bell-bottom jeans and blue eye shadow, lol

          73. Caroline Is Fine & SMH,
            That guilt shit is powerful no matter who’s side it is on. I still feel guilty for blocking him. Our N’s are still in our heads whether we admit it or not.
            I am going to throw this out there as to my thoughts as my N has been gone. I will admit I think a little bit less about him, but how I think about him has changed. Now I think I cant wait for him to get back to see how long it takes him to hoover me. My addiction is holding on. My logic is yes still there fighting for its life.
            Is part of the “withdrawal” being anxious again? For some reason yesterday and this morning I have been really anxious. It is a weekend when I never see him and occasionally have contact. Is this just part of my ET fighting for it’s life?
            I LOVED BARRY! !!! My pick would be Boy George or Earth Wind & Fire. Loved disco…….
            smoochies and hugs on this bright sunny day.

          74. Kim,
            I’m going to defer to HG & SMH on this one, as I am in a different place. I’m not addicted, and I don’t want Hoovers, for realsville…he does not have that hold over me, and he hasn’t for a very long time. I’m anxious because of fear, though I do not like to admit that, and I don’t want anyone to worry about me, so I don’t explain too much on here. But I’m not sure what he’ll do, and he’s worse than he used to be (more than I anticipated). The work I have left to do on myself is with guilt/feeling responsible for stuff I should not… I’m making some significant progress though, and this guilt exercise I’m doing is eye-opening!

            I’d say I regret every trying to help get him into therapy, but I don’t. It’s just the way I am…I have to do what my heart + mind feel led to, and I deeply reflect before I make serious decisions… that said, this situation I’m in now is the consequence of that. I want everyone to see that, so I’m open about it. I do know if I can avoid/evade him, the longer that goes, the better off I get… it will fade, on his end. It will take time.

            We’ve moved on from Barry… into 80s pop… classical symphonies… and the beat goes on! (still on the road).

          75. Caroline, Once again, I cannot figure out how to reply to your comment to my comment but this: “tell you I’m a commitment-phobe who is so busy with way too many things that I may actually forget I’m even in a relationship.” I have had SO many men tell me that exact same thing – that they might as well not even exist when all I am doing is living my life. I don’t get it except that they want your life to be consumed by theirs. Maybe narcs are worse this way but most men that I have known have been like this.

            Hope you are still enjoying your road trip! I have one tomorrow but on a bus because I do not have a car and the train doesn’t go where I need to go. Not looking forward to it but needs must.

          76. SMH,
            It was a fun day but long… we finally reached our destination. And I’ve heard every genre of music there is. :-)

          77. Kim e, Part of the withdrawal is being anxious but I realized eventually that the anxiety was there whether I was in touch with him or not and that the anxiety would be more likely to continue if I stayed with him. I once left him after we had not seen each other for eight months because as soon as we were back together my anxiety levels went through the roof. But then I felt guilty! So a few weeks later I went back to him. I then made him stay in touch and be consistent for a full month, which he did. He basically held my hand while I got my anxiety under control. Once it was under control, I felt myself distancing from him a bit but then he must have sensed this because suddenly he disappeared and whoosh, there went my anxiety again. Anxiety is the hook they use to keep us addicted. It is chemically related. The guilt is maybe just our attempts to act to get the anxiety under control, but it doesn’t work. The ONLY thing that does work is no contact. HG is completely right about this (as he is about most everything).

          78. SMH and Caroline
            I am so messed up. I know what I have to do but he is in my brain 24/7. I have the rest of August to get my head out of my ass and block him again. Fear….I have heard it said that you hold on because of fear. I never understood that until now. When I think of going NC I feel the fear rise up in me. Then my LT kicks in and says what are you afraid of? That he is going to be the last to ever love you? Well that is just plain stupid because he never loved you and is not ABLE to love anyone. Are you afraid he will physically hurt you? The answer to that is no.
            SO…..SMH, I guess I have to think that the more anxiety I feel when he is not around the more my ET is going away and it is rebelling? Does that make sense…or is that just my ET again?
            I really do need to thank you girls…you to HG… for your patience with me. I have lost myself. I used to be a jolly good jokester with off the top of my head plots. I took no shit from ANYONE and maybe gave more than I should have. I need to get me back…..
            Love and smoochies

          79. Kim,
            I just have a few more minutes & will be away all day until late, so please forgive the haste of this message…

            It’s ok, Kim. You’re being real about your feelings. I do see you wanting to beat this addiction back — and going back to full blocking is the way. It’s great you are thinking on this.

            Also, maybe now, that “Hold On” song (that I linked somewhere on this page) can now be played and thought about… will you find it and play it today? THAT kind (holding on) refers to enduring for just one more day, through the pain, to stay away from a toxic relationship — and get your stronger, more alive self back…I always look to others in how I respond (people know best what they need), so when you said: “I NEED TO GET ME BACK,” this entire post is what I felt led to say back to you.

            Kim, please don’t let this narcissist rob you of anymore time – or joy – or peace in your life. He cannot give you a healthy dynamic, and he’s already in another (unhealthy) dynamic… you cannot trust him, because he doesn’t have that inner core of authenticity. It can’t work to any degree of satisfaction for you. It’s not sustainable. Or real.

            You will turn this around, if you want to… and I think you really do, hon.

          80. Caroline is Fine.
            Hi. Just checking in. Wont want to ghost you…it is rude….LOL. Nothing has changed here except my anxiety has gone away. I have been keeping busy and actually sleeping very well. Read some on the board but instead of helping me understand more….what more is there sweet Jesus……it triggers me.
            I did get my empath results back from HG and I am not sure if it changes anything or not. Answers that I gush with emotions on a very exaggerated level. (Can you guess what I am?)
            Gotta go. Just typing this gets my emotions going as it causes me to think and I am trying not to do that…not about him anyway.
            How have you been? Hooker business busy this time of year?

          81. Kim,
            About time. Thanks for the silent treatment. Heh.

            You’re a Geyser, of course… not to be a know-it-all… but I already knew. Lol …

            Oh and…really, Miss Kim? Gonna call me a hooker now? Yes, let’s get that rumor going. Lol …I’d say that’s a wee bit of passive aggressive behavior there, Geyser Fountain. Um, please don’t start crying now.

            Heh…just a little Geyser humor there. Love ya, you flowing fountain of emotions you.
            ~Caroline x

          82. Caroline LandofTheFree….
            this name is too long to type!!!
            WTH is with the name change from hell??!!!?? You have extra time on your hands?
            Sometimes I think you and HG are one in the same with with your knowledge…and and your not to be a know it all sense of style. Not sure how you knew I was a Geyser just because I explain everything down to the minute detail. I wanted to be a journalist but then again I wanted to be a nun too….ROFLMAO,,,,
            The other parts of my empathic make up help me NOT be the crying type to readily. I might bawl my eyes out in private but the one time the N tried to provoke me I held firm. The fact that deep down I am also a bitch probably helped with that too!!!!
            I will be in touch…lucky girl that you are. Think I will go get a sandwich for lunch today…..LOL

          83. Kim,
            Sorry, I had to check to see if something was wrong with my name…I got a new device yesterday (dropped & broke mine on my work trip), and my techie friend has been working on all the installs. It’s taking me awhile to get used to, and I’ve been hitting all kinds of pop-up junk…sounds like I hit something with my name that made it way longer than usual, oops!

            Anyway…NO SANDWICHES FOR YOU!

          84. CIF. Wow. I swear that other name came up next to yours. Now I don’t see it. Maybe a WordPress snaffu. Glad I got your blood pumping.
            Off with my life…..later

          85. CIF. How did you know I am a geyser? Also with Martyr, Magnet, Co-D, Super and Contagion. Just like my pedigree my empathic school’s and cadre’s are all over the place. Might answer a lot!!😂😂😂❤️🍷

          86. Kim,
            You do seem most like a Glorious Geyser to me. 🙂The reason I’ve thought so is just from observing how you communicate/your behaviors/reactions — and also because one of my good friends is definitely a Geyser…and I see the similarities with you. I try to help her sort out her feelings/calm her/lift her spirts when she’s upset or confused. She gave me the most adorable compliment a few days back, saying, “You’re like ‘Glinda the Good Witch,’ where I always feel things will be okay when you’re around…but like the movie, why must Glinda flit in and out? Dorothy wouldn’t get so damn stressed out if Glinda would be in the movie ALL the time!”😂

            Um, wouldn’t the movie be extremely boring if Glinda was running around calming everyone? Geysers say the cutest things🤗…and are so expressive with their feelings. In contrast, I take a long time to share my private feelings. I’m pretty good at opening other people up, which is ironic. However, I’m *very* motivated to share my feelings if I feel it will make someone else feel comfortable/better, or if it might help in some small way. I feel most comfortable (of course) sharing my feelings with Empaths.❤

            So here are some things I sense are true about you, that remind me of a Glorious Geyser:
            -You’re very fluid with your emotions, so even in writing, I can almost feel the intense energy of your “happy,” “mad” and “sad/down/anxious” states.
            -Similar to my friend, I’m not entirely sure how you’ll react to things sometimes. I find Geysers are the Empaths I have the hardest time reading, with their sometimes sudden emotions — but I like being surprised like that, like it’s a mystery. You also state things in a fairly dramatic fashion, at times, which I can tell you’re authentically feeling that level of emotion in that particular moment. You’re very detailed in explaining your feelings/heart. In this way, it seems like when you feel safe, you wear your heart on your sleeve.
            -Your energy level seems high – which I mean in comparison to mine, as I sometimes need a considerable amount of time to rejuvenate/be solitary, to keep my overall energy level up – to be there in the way I am later, for other people. This is only something I sense about you, and I can’t even tell you why!
            -You really do seem like a love/romance devotee – it seems you can be feeling really down – but then see signs of hope – and you rebound in a snap. You seem like someone who forgives very easily too.
            -You often tell others (exactly/specifically) how you can relate to what they’re saying/how you are like them. You and MP both do this pretty frequently, and I find it endearing.

            I think those were the biggest indicators to me. How did I do? If I did ok, it’s only because HG did a bang-up job describing the types of Empaths. If I didn’t do well, I will still have to take the blame for it — as he surely won’t!😎

          87. CIF……LOL…Talk about a Geyser!!!!
            You are right as I ma pretty “hyper” so my emotions are at top form…good and bad.
            I always try to tell someone that I am corresponding with thru any channel….test, email, phone call….all the info so that a logical (lol) response can be giving to me. I rely hate texts forthat reason. I like to use the talk function for long texts.
            I was surprised a my mixture.
            I have sent for a Narc Detector as I believe he is not just a cerebral.
            I went away for the weekend. It was nice to just get away from all the BS that life throws our way. Off this coming Thursday and Friday. Hanging and getting some stuff done around the house.
            How have you been?
            Please do not be concerned about me. That makes me sad and you wouldn ‘t want this geyser to start bawling.

          88. Kim,
            It really is nice to get away sometimes. I’ll need to do that (work) in a few weeks again, but for now, I’m just having busy days.

            Don’t cry for me…Kim-gentina. I’m concerned for you, but I also know these are your decisions, and you alone must make them…I’m grateful you have the head knowledge about narcissism.

            I finished the “Revenge” series last night. It was good, but what an exhausting endeavor it is to give payback…and like the series opener (Confucius quote) states: “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”

            As I was watching the series, I loved seeing all the strategies (to affect outcomes/achieve goals), as my mind works like that, in terms of strategy/problem-solving…however, I’ve never had a thirst for revenge, not even once with the narcissist. Why would I? He’s disordered. I’m healthy. He can only hurt me if I allow it, and I have no desire to inflict more pain on others, narcissists included. I can only see revenge-y feelings if he’d go after my family or friends, which is a large reason why I’ve left everyone out of it (nobody in my RL knows what he is) & why I’ve handled things as I have. For one thing, I have a lot of guy friends. Based on past experiences with them, they would be like: “I’ll beat the shit out of him.” No. There will be no beating of people.🤨

            Even if my ET temporarily piqued a thirst for revenge on the behalf of others, the potential collateral damage and sheer amount of relentless energy required is a total no-go for me. 😎 Anyway, interesting series…off to work I go.

          89. CIF…real quick. I was filling out the questionaire today for HG to do the Narc detector for me and the question was…..Has he ever cheated on you?
            My reply was LOL
            What more could I say!!!!!!!!!

          90. Kim e (and hello Caroline too), I think you are anticipating his return and that is why you are so anxious. That used to happen to me – either I was returning or he was, and as the time got closer, I’d get more anxious.

            Before my final escape, we went six months NC – I was away for four and in the same city as him for two but I did not tell him I was. I decided instead to get used to being there without him. When we were back in touch, he said ‘I am cautious’ (because our last parting – which was mutual – had come after we’d had an argument). I said, ‘I am cautious too – I’ve been back for two months.’ Took the wind right out of his sails because to his mind I couldn’t possibly be in the same city and not contact him. When he tried to get me back in the FR, I said no.

            Looking back, there were therefore several steps to regaining control. It’s a process. I actually do not think that cold turkey NC is always the best route (I know HG will come down hard on me for saying that). Even now, I am not completely NC because he has many ways to contact me if he dares.

            My situation isn’t the same as yours because we are not in the same place anymore and never will be again. But we were for quite awhile before he moved and during that whole time, I did not allow him back in my life as a lover (I did as a friend, which was a mistake).

            And yes, you do think that he is going to be the last to ever love you even though he didn’t (doesn’t) love you because he can’t (not because you are not lovable). You have to make your life without him better than your life with him, even if it means that you are never with anyone again. You have to figure out what you really want and put yourself first. An abusive relationship is much worse than no relationship at all!

            I think you must be a geyser!! xx

          91. SMH,
            Hello. Isn’t it very presumptuous of me to think that I am even important enough for him to hoover when he returns? I really am important to him…in my mind. In reality I am a dime a dozen.
            I agree with you as far as cold turkey NC goes. (Close your eyes HG). I think that each person needs to process it their way so that it sticks. For the lucky ones it might only take 1 time and they are gone. For others…….not to mention any names… might take more. But the final destination is the same……to have NC stick. My process may seem redundant to some but it is mine. One day my brain will say…ENOUGH…and then watch out baby. LOL
            Thanks for your input.

          92. I think it can be logical, HG (though I am not encouraging Kim-e to do what I did). If we make an analogy to quitting a drug or cigarettes, lots of people cut back or substitute before they cut the poison completely out.

            I did go back many times when I did not know how to do NC and ET kept me thinking that things would change. Once I knew that things would not change (after finding this site), I ripped the plaster/band-aid off, slammed the door, and kept any sort of contact to the creeping/indirect kind. I did not respond to any hoovers, however, and at this point I am not even interested in online creeping. It takes longer but in some ways it is less painful. As long as you are living your life in the meantime and not wallowing, it can be done!

            Kim-e, it will get better however you choose to do it. I agree that one day your brain will say ‘enough.’ But in the meantime, keep coming here. Once I found this site, it really helped me to stick to NC. In fact even quite recently I came here when I was feeling (unusually these days) the pull. People here will help you stick to it whether he hoovers you or not (either way, your ET will spike when he returns).

          93. Kim e
            I understand what you are saying about each person having their own process and that one day you’ll say enough. Kim please think about those days you are losing until then. We are all very casual about doing things in our own time, but we don’t know how much time we have and we can’t get those days back. I respect your decision and am not trying to pressure you – I only want the best for you and for you to be enjoying all of your days. It is always your decision.

          94. Wise as always, NA. Unfortunately, taking time is just that–spending the precious finite resource of time. I am certain the N would not waste a second thought, much less a second on an empath.

            While we remain, we cannot fully live in the now. In the limbo of our own time, we have one foot on the dock and the other on the boat. We cannot begin to cross the emotional sea until both feet are on board.

            We may hold on to (false) hope or to memories that we held dear, when in reality, both are illusions that consume precious time. While we remain and give focus to the N, it also takes away our ability to see other, healthier options that might not yet ‘feel’ right because we are still holding on to the past or an imagined future. While our minds know these things, our hearts tell us a different story (ET).

            I believe for many, taking time seems necessary. In reality, it is a decision point. No amount of procrastination will change the facts. I believe the reason why making the final decision to let go can be more difficult for some is due to a self-protective instinct to avoid the final pain and grief that comes with the closure of any relationship (even when you initiate the departure). I understand. But I hope Kim E and others choose their own well being as soon as possible, because that is when the healing begins.

            Kim E, Wishing you all the best now and as you move forward.

          95. SMH and CIF,
            I am out for a while. I will be back. Take care of each other…..I wanted to tell you to behave….LOL…but why bother.

          96. lol Kim-e. I misbehaved really, really badly on Saturday night. I don’t even dare tell anyone here what I did, much less any of my irl friends :). Hope the rest of your August is good. Come back and tell us what happens!!

          97. MISTER Tudor,
            Please tell me you were not in NYC this past Saturday night.

          98. But I am not on Instagram, HG, so how will I know? Oh right, the royal purple knickers :).

          99. Someone will tell me, HG. Hey narcsite friends and HG IG followers, please tell me if HG makes it to NYC!


          100. Sir London (HG),🤴
            I am not on Instagram, Facebook, nor a Tweeter. So the empath sisters will have to inform me.

          101. Unlucky but if your absence from social media is part of a no contact regime, then HG approves.

          102. HG,
            Well…I’d love to say I’m off those platforms because of NC, but I’ve never been on them, because I once had such a horrific (stranger) stalker problem that the police had to get involved, so it greatly affected my privacy choices. But I will take the compliment from you anyway (thank you), as my NC has been excellent.😎

          103. SMH,
            Was it with a narc or no? If not with a narc, I won’t ask — you don’t tell. If it involved a narc, it’s 100% our empath business…so spill it, sister.🤨

          104. Exactly, SMH! I second CIF! Your narc business is our narc business!

          105. CIF, Ha spill it. He’s most definitely not a narc so I can’t say more but I’ve decided I’m only going out with alpha left brained types from now on (MRN got me hooked). Enough of the emo writers and artists, most of them wannabees.

          106. Thank you, Caroline dear. I hope to have another crazy night like that. It’s what I live for!

          107. SMH…I had to come back to say…TELL ME ALL!!! I wont tell anyone else.
            You can trust CIF and I with your antics.

          108. Haha Kim-e, CIF and HG’s 15 million-strong fan club. I have already put that night behind me (the guy is away) so I can get mentally ready for the next one. Things are hopping! I’ve no idea what NYC did without me all these months!!

          109. Kim-e, I saw your comment about your narc coming back early but I can’t find where to reply to it, so I am replying here. I just wanted to say that I am SO SO proud of you for getting through that, and with low anxiety!! That is really fortifying your defenses – it’s like an inoculation – a bit of the disease to make you immune!

          110. CIF & SHM. I failed miserably. I never in a million years would imagine that he actually would test me. being afraid of being wounded. Wondering if he was just testing the wasters to see if he was still blocked.
            BUT as soon as his sound went off, I stopped in my tracks put my hand over my mouth and I am not going to lie to you RAN to my phone.
            The conversation was as you would expect like a day had not passed. I did get a good laugh when I told him a passed my class I was taking and that he had promised to take me to dinner if I did. He said…”and the offer still stands”. Great thing about it is he never offered any such thing!!!!!! I of course believe it was future faking but we will see.
            Guess I am back on the wheel again.
            CIF will say and how does that make you feel? Since it is the first day of course happy. BUT we shall see.
            Sorry HG for doubting you. I seriously thought he would not text me as before he would passive hoover me for weeks before contact was made. I somewhere in the long conversation had promised CIF that if he text me I would donate 100.00 to the charity of her choice. I am thinking she would agree that the Angel Assistance is a good place to start. Might help someone get over the heartache I know I am headed to again but just for the time being cant seem to get away from.

          111. Your apology is accepted and the important points are

            1. Learn from the fact I am right.
            2. Do something about it – change your number.
            3. Make your donation today there are plenty of people in the queue waiting for help.

          112. Received and thank you.

            Indeed I am. You listen, but your ET keeps you engaged. Application is necessary to reduce its grip. I will give you the best tools, but you still have to wield them. You will get there.

          113. HG. Not sure why but you just made me cry. The fact that you understand it is a battle between my ET and LT touched me.

          114. HG, I thought that was really sweet of you too. You were able to be supportive and understanding, even if Kim-e was going against your advice, because you understand why. It would be too easy to take it personally and you did not. Kudos to you.

          115. It wasn’t sweet of me. I would not take it personally, I know I am right, Kim-E knows I am right, if she fails to follow my direction, she suffers, I do not. Every single person who follows my direction succeeds, that is why my work is the best, but you are all adults and if you do not want to make the effort and use this material, it is on you. The fact is most people do follow my directions and the plaudits and gratitude in my inbox are testament to it. I will give you what you need to help you, but you have to be the one to use it.

            I appreciate your sentiment nonetheless SMH.

          116. HG, I know you didn’t MEAN to be sweet but still… MRN would occasionally say ‘I really am a sweet guy.’ I never told him he was not sweet – I did tell him he seemed like two different people but I didn’t really insult him until the very end post escape. So it seemed to me that he both knew he was not nice and wanted to desperately believe that he was.

          117. SMH. I would tell my MRN he really was a sweetheart and he would say “aarrggg…you know I dont do emotions”.

          118. Kim-e, Sounds just like mine. I wouldn’t tell him he was a sweetheart but I would address him as ‘darling’ or ‘sweetheart,’ which he loved – it was kind of a joke. He would also tell me straight up that he did not do emotions – did not have many himself and didn’t understand other people’s. He knew there was something wrong with him.

          119. By the way Kim-e, CIF, SP, I had this very promising date last night. Six hours of lobster and oysters, drinking, walking along the river, talking.

            Long marriage but wife suddenly died young a decade ago. Dad was a psychopath but he is an empath. Really smart and knowledgeable, w/lots of interests, our politics align, very very generous, has a city apartment and a country house just where I want to be, attractive and a good kisser (many men are not), well off and retired young so lots of freedom. Long message this morning wanting to see me again and I would like to see him again too, so win-win.

            He has only daughters (my own personal red flag, given my history with men with only daughters), is a bit TOO emotional/ott, and I am somewhat worried that little old serial monogamist me cannot live up to his expectations – – but I came clean about everything and he was not fazed. If I can get him to take it down a notch or two and not rush, especially because he still gets emotional about his wife, he might be a keeper.

            I have not dated for 8 months but it only took two weeks to meet someone who seems appropriate once I had my head screwed on straight. Thanks, HG, for making me sane again. I hope you and SM had a nice evening. Do go to an oyster bar while you are here. Divine.

          120. SMH, six hours of lobster and oysters would make me really sick! Haha just kidding I’m happy you had a great time. How do you know he’s an Empath? Did he talk about his deceased wife a lot? That would be a red flag for me.

          121. SP, Ha. I got food poisoning from sushi the day before so I was a bit wary but damn it was good. Plus he paid for all of it :).

            I was (am) very aware about the wife but I had already told him that and also that I had never dated a widower (we messaged a lot over about a week). We did discuss it a bit but I also discussed my deceased sister and friends. We did it in a philosophical way (what is death?) rather than in an emotional way but that is one reason I am taking it very slowly. I do not think the death of a beloved spouse is something that one ever gets over but he seems very self-aware and self-corrective. He’s had quite a bit of therapy and counseling, and has had two relationships since she died (one short and weird and the other quite long), so he has worked a lot of things out.

            I know he is an empath because at one point he interrupted me to talk about his daughters when I was telling a story and I called him on it pretty brutally – I will not be triangulated again with someone’s fucking daughters (see? brutal!). We talked for awhile about it. He was not wounded or threatened, and did not shut down. He very openly did a self critique. I also knew who he was and where he lives before we met up – I could even Google a video of him speaking. If anything, he is too empathic – more than I am, and emotionally too open (heart on sleeve type) whereas I can be very closed. That worries me more than the fact that he can be self-absorbed (we all can be, right?)

            Anyway, I have very little free time for the next two weeks, so won’t see him for awhile. Not rushing!

          122. SMH…Did you run away with the lobster man? Or was it the oysters that did it for you? Just checking up on you………write when you are “free”………..

          123. Hi Kim-e, Good timing :). Speaking of lobsters, I have been on a boat eating lobsters, and mostly offline for the past few days. Oyster man has been emailing the whole time, however. We are scheduled to have another date tomorrow night, so I am waiting on any decisions about whether he is too clingy. I kind of hope he isn’t really because he has a lot of good qualities – but it all remains to be seen.

            I have not had a chance to catch up here – tell me how you have been doing?? Any further communications from your MRN? xo

          124. SMH
            I hope Lobsterman he is a good guy and not a piano boy!!!!
            As for further communications, I will let you catch up with my hoovering rant from Friday night. Let me know what you think after reading

          125. Kim,
            Well…you know I am here for you, and it is not my way to scold, but I’m very concerned. I know you’re plenty self-aware to realize you’ve been half-in with your NC. So, now he’s made it back in, and please seriously consider this…

            Stopping it all, 100% NC. Please reflect on how good that would be for you. You can start anew, with the wind at your back. I know you feel happy now, but we both know that emotion is temporary with a narcissist…what goes up must come down — and you don’t want that miserable fall. Remember the pain. Remember the confusion. Remember the addiction – please don’t grow that.

            Kim, I cannot tell you the peace I feel again, having NC with my ex. Even yesterday, NOT seeing him/NOT allowing him to see me…it was not a power trip. It was my own peace mission. I feel even more free today. Even though I didn’t have the desire for anything but maybe to be a NISS when I was trying to get him into therapy (along with his family), it was not until I didn’t speak to him again for a few weeks that I realized: “That was still quite trying…and still unsettling.”

            I feel so much better NOT engaging with him, in any way. I do not even want to be a NISS anymore, which would be pointless & likely still harmful to me also (because all he’d be doing would be tactics). I am not meant to be in contact with him, in any way…because he would corrupt all that is wonderful in and about me (I don’t mean that in a vain way). The same will always be the case for the narcissist you’ve got floating around. I am here to expound on any aspect of the increased freedoms, peace & joy of no more contact, any time you want to discuss that more.

            Yes, I think the Angel Assistance would be a lovely way to help others entrapped and in pain. HG can really help them. Thank you very much for that!😇

          126. CIF, That was great to read. I feel the same way you do but I also know that I have not really been tested because MRN has not been in my vicinity and I have had no direct hoovers (or even indirect ones for months now as far as I know). You are best at giving Kim-e this sort of insight because of the proximity you have to your narc. I am glad you have realized that you have no need for him in your life in any capacity.

          127. Thank you about my post, SMH.

            And I’m just grateful it requires a plane ride or double-digits car ride, for him to enter into my sphere.

          128. CIF, Mine too but we have nothing in common other than the affair so there is no reason for us to run into each other. Makes me realize how important it is not to get involved with a narc neighbor or a narc at work!

          129. Kim-e, Oh dear. I know you will not change your number, as HG suggests, so I hope you do at least get a dinner out of it! Make it a really expensive one! xo

            P.S. You and CIF are making me think that I am next. I will have to be extra vigilant.

          130. No, SMH~no to Kim having dinner with that pathetic Midranger!😲 (You’re a Savior Empath~snap out of it!😂)
            Yes, SMH~yes, to your vigilance.💋

          131. Ah CIF, I am a savior (I think) but not a romantic or judgmental. A savior realist? I wasn’t encouraging Kim-e but I knew she would do it so I wanted her to get the most out of it. Expensive dinner and then maybe she will tell him to fuck off? Do what you have to do but with a twist? Or do what you have to do and I will be here if you need me? Since I am in such a different position as MRN is in a different country, I am the last person to say that you shouldn’t do this or that, since I do not know what I would do myself. I am happy to see when things are handled with true empath grit, but I don’t know for sure that I would be able to do that myself. In other words, I would probably do the same as Kim-e, but I will never be tested directly.

            Meanwhile, I am being vigilant. I have a date tomorrow night (won’t tell you where HG, though I would love if you and SM could join us for a beer – skol!). The guy has been what appears to be love bombing and we have not even met yet but I think I read him correctly and he is sincere – just stream of consciousness and hopeful. He is very open and we have a lot in common (not mirroring, since he tells me things first), so I do hope there is chemistry. Anyway, there will be a report!

          132. HG, I am not going to look for that character on my keyboard :). Have a nice evening!

          133. ha ha, I doubt you will find it on your keyboard although you can of course find the shortcuts for international characters and acquire my approval! Enjoy your weekend.

          134. God you are so pedantic. In a strange way, it’s very endearing but I could never in a million years go out with you. lol. SM is a saint! Enjoy your weekend too – hope you get some beach time as it is promising to be v hot and humid.

          135. Yes, you would be constantly correcting me because I am so imprecise! I mean MRN could talk circles around me but I operated on a different plane and could talk circles around him too. No wonder we never saw eye to eye.

          136. SMH, Yes. Dinner is already set up. As long as I can stay away from the sex part, I should be ok for a while.
            And you are right. Not changing number now. Gonna go back on the wheel and see…………

          137. Kim e, …. make up an excuse? I don’t want to get in here telling you what to do, I’m not an expert on resisting temptations, but precisely for that reason I don’t think it’s wise to attend that dinner. Too much danger for just a night eating out!

          138. SP,
            TOTALLY agree…what is happening? You & I are the “firm” ones in this? 🙃

          139. CIF, before I blocked my narc’s phone, I changed his name in my contacts to “Love yourself,” in case he tried to contact me and I felt tempted again. This never happened because I went NC immediately after but it was a way to remember to never answer his call. Of course another way is to fall into the temptation and get your heart broken again, but I don’t have time for so much suffering, this life is short. I hope Kim runs away.

          140. SP~I love, love, love your loving yourself with “love yourself”! Did ya catch that, lol?💛💜💚💙❤

            I hope she calls it off too, but I am being realistic, because she was the one who asked him, which tells me I was nowhere in the ballpark of where Kim was at, with her ET.

            My hopefulness never ceases to amaze me…because I never saw dinner coming.

            However, I still have hope…because I think HG knows exactly what’s coming down the pike later…a consult. It’s why both narcissist expert knowledge/direction + Empath support/inspiration play their own roles.

          141. CIF,
            When I mentioned to him that he had promised to take me to dinner when I passed my class, I seriously thought he would come back with “No I didnt”. I was going to come back with “OH, must have been another friend”. I was floored when he said “and the offer still stands.” I replied again telling him that “as I have to abide by your schedule”, once again I thought I would be blown off as his week night schedule is very regimented to match his MMRN school. I was not excepting a reply after that but 7 hours later he came back with “how about next week”?
            I am fully prepared to be blown off…tho it has never happened in the past. He did reschedule on me once but gave me a days notice. No day has been set for next week.

            My ET was high always. I thought you knew that since I told you I unblocked him. I miss calculated that he would not electronically hoover me but that flub helped Angel Assistance.

            I truly appreciate you for caring. And I am so happy for you that you avoided your EX.

          142. CIF. I get this distinct feeling you are completely disappointed in me. If this is true, I am sorry if I let you down. I was as honest with you as I could be.

          143. Kim,
            I am not disappointed in you! I am concerned for you — there’s a big difference!❤ You’re always as honest as you can be, with me/us, and I value that quality very much. So I will be honest about my reaction to the dinner thing…

            I got sick to my stomach. That feeling is still there. That’s how I am with my emotions — I take things calmly on the outside, but if I am really upset (or something hits me strongly), I tend to get very sick to my stomach…it has to be something that hits me on several levels (usually for several reasons/deep layers), and it also means I CARE.💛

            I tell you that because you detected it and asked…unlike a narc, I’m not good at pretending, so since your news, I’ve just been reflecting on what I’ve learned/how I can be real but not add to growing your addiction, and that side of me is more quiet. Also, unlike a narc, I do not tell you this now to guilt you…I know you are on a journey, Kim — and it is your own! So… no worries that I am “disappointed” in you — I only truly get disappointed in myself (if I fall short in areas I deem not up-to-par for myself), as I look at life as though others are moat definitely *not* here to validate me/get my approval/please me…and vice-versa.🙂

            So…NOT disappointed, doll. Concerned.💛💜💚💙❤

          144. CIF. That is are relief that you are not disappointed in me. BUT why the concern? Deep down after all our chats you had to have known I would end up going back. I said it right out at times and certainly when I told you I unblocked him. It took me a few days to tell you as I was kicking myself for doing it but as you said it is part of my journey.
            My reaction to the text this time was shock and awe as it always is when I hear that sound but I feel different inside. Not as high. Maybe it is because I know he has a new candidate but then I think back to there was always someone else there Kim. It was never just you. But sometimes being blind makes it easier. I knew about the IPPS when I allowed myself to be hoovered back in the first time. The only type of relationships I have ever had have been third party…..either they were married or I was. This is just another more intense.
            But I really am concerned that you are concerned about me. Why are you?
            Love ya woman

          145. Kim,
            The easier question first…(please give me the weekend to reflect on how to answer the concern question, which I want to do).💙

            As for why you re-engaging with the narcissist so threw me off …

            It’s because I have a blind spot, which is a part of who I am. That blind spot is HOPE…which is good when it’s about being inspired myself, and what I believe/decide. The problem comes when I wish that/believe that *for* others, despite evidence to the contrary.

            Sometimes I see what I want to see.

          146. CIF. The dinner isn’t a done deal. I will not contact him next week so it is in his ball park. He might be content (joke here) just knowing he is no longer blocked and I am now on the shelf.

            HG. I am going to ask here……once a N knows he is blocked does he just keep texting when the HEC is met to see if the block has been removed? How else would he know?

          147. He does not text to see if the block has been removed, he texts because the HEC has been met, he may not know he has been blocked, but rather there is no response so he suffers mild wounding. This will raise the hoover bar slightly (all things being equal) meaning it is less likely there will be further hoover for a short time, then the effect of the wounding fades. Of course you should not be concerning yourself with what the narcissist is doing but you do because you are not lowering your emotional thinking.

          148. CIF and SMH, Dinner has been had. It was lots of talking about work, army, kids. Every day life. I know that there are…or should I say…never have been…….lies about these. I have verified things I have been told before by snooping thru other peoples FB accounts.
            We talked about us in the past. I asked why he did not tell me he was married and was told I was afraid you would stop talking to me. I was unhappy back then.
            I asked what is our relationship now and got I am not sure. I said is there an us or we and he just shrugged. No future faking.
            I got a hug at the front door and he left.
            Not sure how I feel. Kinda happy. Kinda sad knowing now I am back in my little compartment with my tv and my margarita maker until next time I am taken off the shelf.
            I have an excellent time when I am with him.
            That is my status right now. Not sure how I will feel tomorrow or the next day as like I said I am not sure how I feel now.
            P.S. The margarita was excellent.
            P.S.S. There was no talk of sex……well unless you count little comments like if the word hard was said……but nothing of future sex.
            P.S.S. No future faking

          149. Kim,
            I’m just going to be happy that you weren’t future-faked & seem to be feeling steady about it. 🥰 You have a vibrant personality & much you can do to be even more joyful, as well to give into the world each day, so I say make each day into how you want it…be deliberate about it, like tomorrow could be your last day. It’s how we all should live, really. 🙌

            When you get a minute, tell me about your upcoming trip!
            🧜‍♀️ 💚😘Caroline

          150. CIF. Thank you for the words regarding my dinner and my future. I hope that means your concern for me has lowered.

            My trip is a revolving door of changes. Now thinking about doing a wine country tour in California, Spain, London, Grand Canyon, California……….so many choices.
            Will you be traveling for fun any time soon?
            Smoochies KIm

          151. Kim,
            Hey, woman…this is my eve of chilling, before “moving days” help this weekend (my help is, pretty much, confined to organizational tasks…(I’m not a heavy-lifter — I catch all the details & am also good at routing/re-routing the men folk).🤸‍♀️

            I like dreaming with you, about your upcoming trip! 👜More details, more details! The bits & pieces sound lovely…

            As for me, my jobs (I have 2 totally separate careers/one is only seasonal though). Lately, it’s made it hard to plan a personal trip. But I can dream, for when things settle down some…and my 3 travel dreams currently are:
            -Norway (where I could link up with extended family who live there/I do not know them well, but it would be a neat adventure)
            -An Alaskan train adventure, with a group of friends🐧🦌🚂
            -Japan, to finally visit a close friend of mine, and her family

            As for my concern for you, I’m still concerned there is a narc in your midst. NARC BEGONE…bummer. No spray bottle emoji.

            Note: in the Alaska category, that is supposed to be a puffin emoji, not a penguin…and I found it disheartening I have no moose emoji, so I settled for a reindeer substitute.

          152. CID & SMH Well I’ll be a son of a bitch. I live in a townhome. It is nice and cool here tonight and I had my carpets cleaned today so my patio window is open. I am standing on the patio talking to my son and WHO comes walking by but my neighbor Narc. This is the back side of my townhouse. I almost fell over. He is walking a dog. I said when did you get him? He says April. I said is this Sarge (he always talked about getting a boxer and calling him Sarge) He says…This is Sarge. WTF!!!!! I just had dinner with this asshole 2 nights ago and not a fucking thing was said about Sarge!!!!!!!!!!!! And I get hoovered in my own house. He could have walked the front of the townhouse and I would not have seen him due to the layout…..WTF!!!!! I really am shocked…..dismayed…flabergased…….
            Wonder how many other times he has walked by and I did not see him as the window and blinds were closed.
            Am I imagining this…was it a hoover or a coincidence?
            I am not sure what I feel right now….I am literally in shock.

          153. Kim,
            …and that sick feeling in my stomach returns.🤢

            I’m off to pick up chicken-n-biscuits & OJ for the crew…it’s MOVING DAY 1. You may never see me again, if I accidentally get packed up!

          154. CIF Just making sure you aren’t lost somewhere in a packed box loaded with kitchen items!!???
            How did the move go?

          155. Oh my gawd, oh my gawd, oh my gawd – how did this even happen?!…get me out of here!🥄🍴🍽🍴🥄🍼🥄🥢

          156. CIF and HG
            Caroline….GET OUT OF THE BOX. I have something very serious to discuss with you.
            I am slowly but surely headed towards NC again. I scoped out the other train parking lot that we discussed. I am going to have to leave at the butt crack of dawn to get there but he can find me too easy at the one I am at now.
            SO…..I really want to know…….can I ever go back to the old parking lot? Just for my own convenience?

          157. K,
            Aw, thanks😘 It was TS inspired!…Not on purpose, but I think I used to (part of my natural personality) entertain the narc, in sundry ways – but no more. It’s another reason I must remain NC with him. I simply can’t stop being myself (I tried that “gray rock” thing, when I was part of helping to get him into therapy, but I can’t sustain it — it feels supressive). He is easily bored, so him finding me “interesting” is dangerous to me…I’m not on this earth to save him from boredom.🐱‍🐉

          158. My pleasure Caroline-is-fine
            To hell with gray rock. Save yourself. Get as far away as you can from him.

          159. K,
            You got it, Sister.❤ To think I broke up with a kind, gentle, cool professor (published poet, no less) to go out with a maniac of a narc…that was so unlike me to drop such a wonderful guy too, but it was like the narc cast some sort of hinky stare-spell on me.😵 I really hurt the other guy too, which bothers me to this very day. Ugh, that was awful. It shows the harm that permeates onto the totally blameless.😥

            Windstorm told me my narc seems dangerous, which I have always kept uppermost in mind, with every step I have taken…and I take my NC quite seriously in being aware in this regard, as Windstorm has had much experience dealing with Greaters.

            Thankfully, the narc is far away from me, physically. What a blessing that is! He has shown up unexpectedly at one of my work areas though…I think I’m doing well avoiding him thus far, while not involving others, which would just complicate everything. I don’t want anyone else getting caught up in this.

            I think he will give up on me fairly soon & find a new IPPS…poor woman, whoever that will be.

          160. Caroline-is-fine
            I have referred to the GP as voodoo-black-magic-narc-heroin. The seduction is powerful and logic goes right out the window. Poor professor; collateral damage. Don’t beat yourself up too much*. You were targeted and it wasn’t your fault.

            You got served: 1. The Ambush. (How to Reduce Giving Fuel to The Narcissist). Hold strong and hopefully he will find another IPPS soon…poor woman! Maybe she will be a narcissist and then they can fuel each other.

            My ULN is married to a MMRN.

            *(The self-flagellation of the empath, blaming oneself for being manipulated.) – The Narcissist Torments : Emotional Torment

          161. K,
            Lightbulb moment: 1 Narcissist 🖤+ 1 Narcissist🖤 = Perfect (Un-love) Relationship…something for me to wish for! I’m not sure how likely it would be for my nex-BF to pick a narc as an IPPS – but it makes my heart feel super warmly fuzzy, just thinking of it 😂 — the best, most practical & “non-hurting other Empaths” solution! 💛

            Thanks for reminding me I was targeted. I keep forgetting that. I have not (yet) totally let myself off the hook for the prof poet…I still feel I should have had more…I don’t know, willpower? Even in the face of sheer evil at times in my life, I’ve been able to stay lit-up from within and remain strong. That “switching boyfriends mid-stream” event felt very much like a personal failing…I need to dig in more on it, as I’m sure it’s those little pieces that I don’t resolve inside myself that leave room for the guilt monkey to hop on my back at times. 🙈

            Thanks for the wise & kind counsel, K.💖

          162. My pleasure Caroline-is-fine
            Ha ha ha…1N + 1N = fuel and control; it’s a match made in heaven (hell for us). They deploy the same manipulations with each other and, in some ways, it seems to work but it can be volatile. You would be surprised at how many N v N relationships exist in my neck of the woods.

            Occasionally, we have to remind ourselves that we are not at fault, that helps us move forward. There’s no will power when dealing with the GP, however, I understand the guilt monkey; it’s an awful feeling. Guilt is a difficult emotion to work through and it really does feel like a personal failing. It’s probably not feasible to contact the Professor and apologize so try to look at it logically, feel it, learn from it and set it aside. You may have to repeat this process several times. Warning: It sucks big time.

          163. So true, K, on the process…I did apologize to the prof poet, at the time, though I remember only saying how very sorry I was, with no real explanation (because, clearly, the only rational explanation was I was taken over by the Moonies!)…he was beyond kind to me, even saying that if the other guy mistreated me in any way, he’d be “waiting in the wings,” but he also did say: “I know you, and this guy went after you hard. He has no guy code.” Well, he could not be more right about the lack of a “code.”

            I’m just so glad I did not marry the narc, K…so glad. I can’t fathom it. I know better now, and so I do better — something I try to tell others who have any residual guilt over a narc entanglement.

          164. Caroline-is-fine
            The prof poet was correct; the narc had no “Guy Code” at all, just a “narc code”, and I think the Professor took a direct hit rather than collateral damage. Ouch! Is he still waiting in the wings? Thank God you didn’t marry the narc; it would’ve been so much worse.

          165. K,
            Noooooooo! Crud. I replied back on this — was all done & about to send — and then hit something on the side panel of my not-so-nifty new Tablet, which returned me to the main screen. Ummm…Does that mean it went through, or no? I’ll wait to see…and will redo later, if I don’t see it show up…so that I don’t repeat myself. So I don’t repeat myself. So I don’t repeat myself.🥴

          166. K,
            Guess my last post didn’t go through, so continued here, on your question…

            Some of my friends had classes with the lit prof, and after our break-up, they’d tell me he didn’t seem to be doing too well, and I felt horrid — like a little monster!! 👹So later down the road, when the narc was (literally) making me sick to my stomach/I wasn’t sleeping or eating much…I thought about calling the kind prof, knowing he would be loving & comforting…but I didn’t. I just couldn’t do that to him. Plus, I felt like my “punishment” fit my “crime.” Now I understand what it was all about, thanks to HG’s site. So my guilt over the fallout has lessened. But you are right…the prof was not just collateral damage. It was a direct hit.☹

          167. Caroline-is-fine
            Oh man. I feel bad for the lit prof, too. Definitely a direct hit to the heart. I upgraded from a ULN to my MMRN so I don’t feel any guilt for that, thank God! Guilt is an awful feeling but it will resolve itself eventually. I wonder what would have happened if you called him.

            This is a nice example of self-flagellation: I felt like my “punishment” fit my “crime.”

          168. K,
            Well, dang, I can now see the monster face emoji real BIG from my last post, and it’s all red & black and gnarly & demonic-like…I wasn’t behaving THAT bad!😂👸 <better?

          169. Kim,
            I only have a sec at the moment, but I will be back later, gator.

            As for NC, yes, yes – and yes…the way to freedom. 💫As for keeping your current parking lot later down the line, I’d just stay in the NOW. You need to do this now, so I’d give serious focus to that. One of the key elements that secures successful NC, in my humble opinion, is DISCIPLINE. So I leave you with this DISCIPLE acrostic:



          170. CIF. Not sure if you saw my reply to SMH regarding the train station as I do not see it posted yet.
            I am going to make the move tomorrow so the triggers of the old station go away.
            Please read my reply to her and let me know your thoughts…that is if you have made it out of the box yet!!!!!!

          171. Kim,
            Yep, the move is totally over~it went well. 🙂 As for the train schedule, I’m all for you putting space between you & the narcissist.🙂 I just read SMH’s reply to you on that, and I was reflecting on it, as I also reflected on your original post, on the narc’s stalking-like behavior…so I’m trying to keep in mind that your ET may be putting your motivations at counter-purposes & am just wondering where you are at right now (realizing your emotions are likely fluid)…

            1) Do you feel more that you really want this narc out of your life and to move on — or are you still feeling a pull & that you want him in your life, if only as an NISS?
            2) Where do you feel your addiction is at, if you had to rate it, 1-10.

            This would just help me to understand a bit more.💜

          172. CIF & SMH.
            He is blocked. New train station tomorrow. Trying it again. Try to move on and not worry about what he is going to do. Or not gonna do
            I will be in touch. Going to buy Kleenex and wine….. oh and black out curtains for my window….lol

          173. Kim,
            Good deal on the new train station/let us know how it goes…I hope you don’t need the Kleenex at all! Some people get melancholy when drinking — or more emotional and nostalgic — so maybe switch to caffeine instead, if needs be, to stay alert to your NC❣

          174. CIF…the train station isn’t my road block. It is not unblocking him again. Driving someplace new is just a inconvenience especially at 5:15 in the morning.
            I do not get melancholy with drinking….dont drunk butt dial……
            Kleenex….some eye leakage yesterday . Hope for the best….prepare for the worst.
            Might get some Advil for my neck from it being on a swivel for a while watching my back…and front…and side….and back yard.
            Day one…and counting

          175. Kim,
            NOT knowing what he’s doing will bring increased calm/peace (give it time!), if you keep the block. As for watching him, I’d draw the curtains/blinds closed when indoors — again, NOT knowing what he does (or speculating) keeps you out of the ET loop!🙂

            It’s like HG telling people not to check what their narc is up to online…checking feeds more checking, which increases the addiction, in that you obsess about the narc. It overall affects your ET.🧜‍♀️

          176. CIF. I havent checked his on line shit in forever and dont plan on it now.
            My blinds have nothing to do with me watching him. Did I misunderstand that statement? The only reason I saw him was because I was standing in the actual patio window talking on the phone. No issue if I am sitting.

          177. Kim,
            Oh, that’s good~I can’t find your original comment, but I thought you meant you were being hyper-vigilant about where he is all the time, from inside your apartment~my mistake then!💛 I’m really happy for you that he’s blocked. What, no good emoji for blocked? I think I’m going a little emoji crazy–I’ve never had emojis. 🤗

            Am I over-emoting? Over-emojing? Is it driving anyone batty?🦇

          178. Kim e, Just saw this – good for you on both counts! Hope you made it through the night but I think the post I already responded too was from today, so it seems that you did. Let us know how the new commute goes – maybe that will be your opportunity to find an empath guy!

            CIF, I once did that too and the punishment also fit the crime – both horrendous. Almost 20 years later, I still beat myself up about it. But even empaths do shitty things.

            I like that line about the ‘guy code’ because it makes us see that narcs are just narcs, as K says. I think we often mistake them for alpha males, which could not be further from the truth. Alphas have integrity and confidence in spades. They do not lie because lying is for children. I know HG is working his way towards alpha, for which I commend him!

          179. SMH,
            K actually helped me see something else I needed to: it wasn’t a punishment/crime situation at all…that was just my guilty empath self-flagellation…because what’s my “crime”?…

            I broke up with one man (a gem) — to go out with another (an abuser). I didn’t cheat on the first man. And my throwing up and being unable to eat/sleep well later on (due to the narc’s intense manipulations) was not what I “deserved,” as I had told myself. Of course, breaking up with a wonderful man AND ending a truly great relationship was a big, negative result of my decision. I never meant to hurt the prof, and I very much cared that my breaking up with him did — nor did I mean to harm myself, by taking up with a narcissist who would cause me pain, in various ways.

            This is all very good for my leftover false guilt. Logic is my strength…and K has a gift in helping me NOT unnecessarily guilt myself – by affirming me, by pointing out where I am being unfair to myself.💛💜💙💚🤍

          180. CIF, I’ve done worse and I have to live with it but I am older than you, so there is time for you too! (Just kidding!)

          181. Caroline-is-fine
            You got it. Look at it logically and work through your feelings, then let it go. Empaths/normals are able to modify their behaviour (insight and awareness) so we are less likely to repeat hurtful behaviors.

          182. Good point, K. I did not do it again. MRN did the same thing over and over both to me and to IPPS.

          183. SMH
            Exactly, because we have insight and awareness we can modify our behaviour. Their self-defence mechanism won’t allow it because they need fuel to survive. It’s amazing when you think about it.

          184. K, It is amazing. Not only do they need fuel to survive but they have no brakes! I was right when I predicted to MRN that getting involved with him again would be an absolute car crash (or maybe I said train wreck – same thing!).

          185. SMH
            Absolutely no brakes whatsoever! They are like Great Whites; unstoppable predators. Honestly, it’s a train wreck whenever a narcissist is involved.

          186. K, “we have insight and awareness we can modify our behaviour. Their self-defence mechanism won’t allow it.” Your comment makes me feel extremely powerful all of a sudden.

          187. SP,
            Then how come you said you were gifting me a gourmet chef for a year – but never did?🤔


          188. CIF, not at all, I was just waiting for you to specify if you meant the food or the actual chef. He’s waiting.

          189. SP,
            Ha, good one, Sister🙋‍♀️

            I’ll leave the gun (his manliness) & keep the cannoli (his food)!🤭

            Hey now…Can he speak French — but not cook French? (Wanted: Exciting seafood, chicken & veggie dishes)😍
            👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳👨‍🍳 (I’m doing last-minute packing and MAY have had too much caffeine)

          190. CIF, French food has a lot of cholesterol, I agree. I’m more into olive oil than I am into butter and cream. I feel the same about Italian. If someone flirts with me in Italian, I give them my body, my soul, and my bank account. I’ll return the chef I had for you, he doesn’t speak French. Will keep looking 🧐

          191. SP,
            Aw, kinda sad…returning a chef. Like “Chef-In-A-Box.”🎁👨‍🍳 Too much caffeine makes me seem tipsy.🤔

            P.S. So one of my work friends just calls, to ask if I’m ready for the trip…I’m posting little chef and cartwheeling girl emojis…does it seem like I’m ready?🙄

          192. CIF, it looks like you’re tripping already hahaha! Yes, you’re more than ready!

          193. CID (didn’t notice you changed your name), my previous comment reminded me of A Fish Called Wanda. I didn’t realize both the female protagonist and I have the same fetish until now!

          194. SP,
            Yeah, I occasionally change the end of my name, just for fun, on various posts…but it’s usually just “Caroline-is-fine.” But the IS makes it so easy to play with my name…🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️ <Don't worry. I'm now switching to water. I gotta be up at 3 a.m. to travel 😵…so no more caffeine for me!🚀

          195. K,

          196. SP,
            K is laughing at ME…for my joking around that you promised me a gourmet chef. I’m playful sometimes, like a puppy.🐶 There’s no inside joke!

          197. K, I know! But I saw your wink and thought am I missing something? FOLO invasion 😛

          198. SP,
            Oh, never mind! I don’t want to know what it is then, if it’s on there. 🙈🙉 I have a strict IG rule, for my own good.

          199. Caroline is fine

            Fear Of Losing Out. Or in the case of HG: Fear Of Living Ordinarily. Ok I made the second one up.

          200. HG,
            You know what’s really great? When I ask people NOT to tell me something…so everyone does. lol

            I’m saying this good-naturedly, JUST IN CASE there’s any doubt.

          201. FOLO
            Ahhh. I would never have got that. Fear of losing out (FOLO) or Fear of missing out (FOMO) is familiar to me. Always learning here.

          202. Indeed NA, the FOLO as per my abbreviation is also rather apt for the mindset of our kind.

          203. NA,
            Oh, okay, thanks – well, gotta agree with HG then, on the essence of not living an “ordinary” life…uh…why, pray tell, is there a cat and rocket ship emoji, with my FOLO question? I’m emoji out-of-control. I’m cutting back…oh gawd, I almost went to look for a scissors emoji!

            Caroline seizes control.

          204. Sweetest Perfection
            Yes, you got it! If you sit back and really look at it, you are in control and the power is in your hands. You can call the shots now, not the narcissist.

          205. SMH…night was good. Today is good too. Did not do the new train station parking lot today cuz I had to go in early and I would have had to get up at 315. BUT tomorrow for sure.
            I will be on the same trains but I am going to make sure I am in completely different cars so if that guy I think feeds my N info when asked to is looking for me in the train car I am usually in, I wont be there.
            I have been laughing to myself all day long just thinking that once N figures out I blocked him again he will say….OH she is trying to break away agai. I will give her 6 weeks and then hoover her car……SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!
            I know I am not supposed to be doing that becuz it keeps my ET high but I am so early into it that I dont think it will make a difference as it makes me laugh. (guess I better not get too cocky too early as there always is my back yard…LOL)
            I feel good about this this time. I know it is early but……..keeping a good thought.

          206. Kim, Glad you feel good about it! Six weeks is a good chunk of time to work with. Hopefully, by the time he hoovers again you will be clear of him after meeting someone wonderful on the train :). Maybe he’ll even walk by your townhouse and see you with your new lover – double win! Meanwhile, keep the upper hand – you are doing great so far – and think of all the head fucks you have to give!

          207. SMH…OMG you gave me a panic attack (JK) but yes really. I hadnt even thought that there is a possibilty of him hoovering me again. 6 weeks was a reference point but he has not followed any other reference points…….shit…..I thought get out of the normal places and I will be good. I am so wrapped up in my thoughts of making this NC work that hoovers havent entered it
            I can tell you that i felt strangely anxious when I got off the same train in the same parking lot that I have used for 5 years after work today. Truly looking forward to the new station and my new life.
            I do not know where you are located. If you are in the US, do you have any labor day plans?

          208. Hi Kim, I am glad you are looking forward to your new commute. It does take awhile. I had to spend two months in the same city NC with MRN before I felt in control of my environment again (he didn’t know I was there). Once I had reclaimed my space, it was easier to say no to him. You can ignore the hoovers – I sure ignored plenty of them, including fake FB friend requests – I mean I noticed them but I did not respond or give any inkling to MRN that I was aware. At one point, I wanted to write to him and tell him that he could just reach out directly, but I did not do it and I am so glad I did not. Coming here helped a lot. Pretend yours doesn’t exist anymore because you know what? He doesn’t. Remember that his very existence depends on you (fuel). Cut the fuel pump and the car cannot run anymore.

            I am in the US (now) – seeing oyster man again tomorrow night for some music and then probably going to the countryside for a day or two with family but no big plans. I just got back from a four day trip, got some beach time in, and really want to stay home and binge watch TV this weekend and comment on HG’s posts! I see you are going away? Beach? Mountains? Friends? Family?

          209. SMH. I just hiking today and spending the night at a friends house. Tomorrow a movie and steak dinner. Labor Day normal laundry and crap. I only work 2 days this coming week. Then off hiking and touring old houses for 3 days.
            Hope you had a great uneventful binging and commenting weekend. Always nice to travel but nice to veg too

          210. Kim e, Glad you are busy with friends. I am going away again next week so this is just a pause. Today I’ll get off my arse and go to the gym.

            Went out Friday night with oyster man but he is too clingy, so my walls went up. Yesterday he wrote that things felt off. I said yes, maybe because I was tired or you are trying too hard and overwhelming me (with examples). This morning he writes that he sees my point and is going to pull back. Then he writes again with a link that indicates he is searching online for things he thinks might interest me!! I don’t think he can get his compulsive behaviors under control, which is too bad because he otherwise has a lot of good qualities.

            Lesson learned: love-bombing is a red flag whether or not the person is a narc.

          211. SMH
            So sorry about oyster man. Are you sure he isn’t a N? What are the odds of you finding someone with OCD that mimics red flags???? Have you heard from him again?
            Weekend was good. Monday night was a living hell. My ET was thru the roof. Not sure why. Kept wanting to go park in old spot again. Then wanting to unblock. Back and forth…back and forth. I felt like I was gaslighting myself and it was working. I guess the roller coaster of NC is taking effect even tho it has only been 6 days…but who is counting….LOL
            I keep telling myself this is for you Kim…not him…for you. My longest time NC has been about 8 weeks. Does there come a point in time where the ET slows up? My LT is holding so far. Between you and me I hate this new train station. It is a pain in the ass to get there and the parking sucks. I am sure this is my ET bitching due to the fact that I find it completely unfair that it is me that needs to change my life. Rant over….for now…….
            Hope you are having a good week away. I only work today and then tomorrow. Then I am off until next Monday

          212. Hi Kim, I don’t think he is an N, except for an N as in Needy. I told him that he seemed to want to be needed and he said he sees my point and it is a form of neediness. At least he is self aware. I did hear from him again briefly and then I reassured him that I would not ghost him. I’ll see him again but in a more natural relaxed setting. He’s pretty enthused about all of his interests so I do not think it is just about me, but for that reason I doubt he can dial it back. I miss him slightly since he took over my life the past few weeks, so I think seeing him again will clarify a lot of things.

            Meanwhile, I guess I hoovered work gigolo and then he hoovered me right back, complete with a future fake! (well, a future real, I believe). That is what I would recommend – find someone else to obsess about! He and I are not in the same place but if he flies me to where he is (needs me for a project), we might be soon enough. Course he is married whereas oyster man is totally free. Which one do you think I should want? It ain’t just them who are messed up, right?!

            How long does it take? Well, really I think it takes as long as it takes you to find someone else to completely put it behind you. But in my experience, four-six months is time enough to get the ET at least under control. I know it sounds daunting, and it is! Speaking of all of this, I’ve had both a suspicious fake FB friend request and an anonymous LinkedIn visit this week. Are they MRN hoovers? Who knows!

            You will get used to your new train station. Think of how peaceful your commute can be now without your antenna up all the time. Use that time productively for yourself. I am glad you are going away again (as am I). Any distraction is good!

          213. SMH
            WTH do you mean you hooverd the work gigolo? LOL….Knock me over with a feather. How many N’s you got floating around?
            I am with you on the messed up thing. that is why we were picked int he first place. If my N didnt make me feel like I was sinking in mud all the time, I would keep him around.
            My commute was peaceful…it was the old parking lot that was the trigger. as we never were on the train together in the morning…OH shit…never mind.
            I am in a mind to just say F it …………..

          214. Kim e, Say F it to what? It be interesting to see if his hoovers change or become more intense once he realizes that you have vanished. Stick it out for awhile.

            At one point, I had 3 narcs floating around (if we don’t count my mother) – my exHL, MRN and dead narc (had a heart attack last year). I am not convinced work gigolo is a narc. Probably just run of the mill womanizer. But a few weeks ago he asked me to send him something, so I did. At the end of his email response was a promise of reciprocity even though what I sent him was actually a reciprocation of something he had already sent me. I know, confusing…but the point is that he always tries to keep the channels open.

          215. SMH…I hate it when you read my mind. Yes…I was saying F it to NC. BUT i am still there. Might start smoking again. Gotta be easier to stop it again after this is over with.
            You little flirt you…LOL. I think if we knew each other we would get into a lot a trouble together. You remind me of me…..

          216. SMH……what makes you think the hoovers will happen at all? and why would they become more intense? I am just a DLS!!!
            Sorry forgot to put this in my other reply………….

          217. Kim e, You challenged him by moving your car. He’s going to have to up his hoover game, though I guess he can always walk past your porch again. You remind me of me too, and our situations were similar. I think we have also both been married twice, yes?

            I always referred to myself as IPSS rather than as DLS. I think I asked HG once what the difference was given that if you are having an affair, the narc obviously is not going to parade you around to his friends and family. MRN did come over to meet my son, there was quite some future faking, I was picked up and put down a lot (tested), and I think in his own head I was a CIPSS, though I told him I did not want to be IPPS. Anyway, to my mind, I was SIPSS!

            I know exactly how you will convince yourself to break NC, since I did it half a dozen times myself. Don’t do it, or at least wait until your ET is down – four to six months. He’s not going anywhere.

          218. SMH…sorry…one more thing. What will freak him out is not being blocked BUT the fact my car is gone. He loved to hoover it and say….I can watch you……….

          219. Kim, Good for you! I’d say yes you will be able to go back to the old parking lot some day, but I wouldn’t count on it anytime soon. I have no idea how I would react were I to see MRN at this point but I think it would scare him more than it would scare me. After all, I could still cause a lot of trouble. I think you should tell your mid-ranger’s IPPS. That will for sure keep him away from you – worked for me!!

          220. SMH
            I am going to take baby steps with this parking lot thing and as of tomorrow morning start going to the new lot. A vast lot of my triggers are at the old lot as that is where we would walk together after getting off the train and hug before going our separate ways.
            He does not park on the same side as I do any more. His new victim parks on the other side and as of when he returned in August, so does he. BUT the triggers are still there on both sides.
            I am going to be on the same trains as I am now just getting on and off at a different location.
            I was thinking the other night…SURPRISE…LOL…. and the day before my car got hoovered in July with the sandwich shop flyer, a train acquaintance of ours saw me as I got off the train in the city. He literally ran up to me and started talking. Hows work? Is this the train you always take in? What train do you take home? I did not think anything of it as all the info I gave him was old and common knowledge. I asked if he was on the same morning train as we had just gotten off of and he said yes for the summer as he plays golf on Thursdays and has to make up the time so he goes in early. I have NEVER seen him on my morning train again!!!!!! I always wondered if he kept an eye on me and reported back to my N……Might just be a coincidence but right after our conversation the next day My car was hoovered.
            Approaching IPPS has not even crossed my realm of possibilities. I figure she has enough BS to deal with.

          221. Kim-e, Thank you for the report. You seem to know that you are still in dangerous territory but I am here to confirm that he will be back. MRN was quite similar – lied about some things (being married) but told the truth about others (kids, work). Usually I ended things but sometimes we did together – nice talks, mutual decisions that seemed solid, little future-faking – (The ‘I am not sure,’ by the way, IS future-faking because it leaves you hopeful for something). He’d also hug me. None of it made any difference. Do expect hoovers, some quite persuasive. Please take this time to get off the merry-go-round!!!

          222. SMH. Not sure what you mean by I seem to know I am still in dangerous territory ……

          223. Took me awhile to find your report, Kim e, but I did. What did I tell you? Yes, in your backyard (obv). I did not know he was a neighbor. How much out of his way did he have to go? Maybe at this point you can shift your thinking a bit to find his hoovers creepy/stalkerish. Once you start thinking of him as a creep, he will be way less compelling.

            On stalking: when I first met MRN he told me he’d had a stalker and that was why he wouldn’t exchange phone numbers. The ‘stalker’ had apparently called him incessantly and his only number was his work number. He had to go to HR to get a new number. I did not believe him but I did not care at that point. (Later on he gave me his number. I hardly used it but it was WhatsApp and so I sent a chat to my email for safekeeping because it had his name on it. I also took a screen shot – conversation, names, numbers, pictures – an example of evidence I could have sent to IPPS but did not.)

            The last time I saw him, I accused him of stalking me on both LinkedIn and FB. He said ‘that’s not stalking – stalking is when someone comes by your window.’ LISTEN to his logic – when someone calls him incessantly, whether true or not, that IS stalking, but when he leaves footprints online, that is NOT stalking?

            Yours is a stalker who will deny being a stalker. Does not surprise me at all because he is a married MRN, just like mine.

            How do you feel about it this evening?

          224. SMH.
            The 3 options he had to get back to his house all run parallel. He choose the middle one where there are windows to see into my place and for me to see out of. The front of the townhouse, one of the other options, only has windows on the 2nd floor for bedrooms. The other option would have beenfor him to walk down the street that leads directly to his place but nothing on the inside of my place can be seen from that vantage point. I might see him walking by and he might see me if I was standing in the patio door BUT the way he took has, as I said, a direct look into my place.
            I am kinda a weird person and some of the hoovers make me feel good. It has not really got to the creepy stage yet. (yes I know HG…purely ET talking there)
            Now I am just freaked out every time I am in my living room or kitchen that he is watching me. I know it is absurd but as soon as I let my guard down he will appear…like he did this time just out of no where……. Not sure how that part ever goes away. It is a NC hole I had not even imagined as I never imagined him doing that.
            I think I wounded him and I am getting a silent treatment as since I was talking to my son on the phone at the time he appeared…the N had no idea who I was talking to…..after we spoke of the dog I just said…ok….talk to you later and proceeded to continue my phone conversation. I am sure he expected me to get in touch and say…”sorry for cutting you off. I was talking to blah blah about…………” NOT HAPPENING!!!!
            Silent treatment might be a good thing for me as perhaps my ET will go down.

          225. Kim e, an ST might make your ET rise. It sure did mine in the form of anger. I can see that your ET is still all over the place – you want hoovers, you get them, you are then freaked out that he is watching you. That is what happened to me the first time MRN directly hoovered while we were in NC. I looked over my shoulder for weeks. It is not a nice feeling. As for wanting the hoovers, that is not unusual and does not make you a weird person. My issue is with the way they are done – if someone wants to be in contact with me, they can get in touch as a normal person would. When I put all of MRN’s hoovers together, I came up with ‘what is wrong with him’? So what is wrong with yours that he would choose a route where he would either see into your windows or see you? NPD, that’s what! I know you are trying to manage things because of the proximity, but do you really want to continue to be entangled with such a sick person? Even thinking about him and trying to figure out his machinations is a way of being entangled.

          226. SMH. I guess this last hoover freaked me out because all his other ones have been very passive. Things on my car. Walking past my car while I am in it in the train lot.
            I never thought he would hoover like he did last time. If I had beat that he never would hoover that way, I would be paying HG another 10.00 for the Angels help.
            I have never denied that my ET is all over the place. I keep saying but what if? What if I do this…how will he react? HG keeps telling me….it does not matter but that damn truthseeker thing is killing me.
            I am going to get there…I am going to get there….baby step tomorrow….I am going to get there

          227. Kim,
            I don’t think my “Truth Seeker” quality — in regard to others — must be very high, so maybe I can help with this, a bit. I do seek truth within myself, in making sense of things and coming to convictions/decisions…but I’m not overly curious about the behavior of others. No, wait, that’s not exactly right…I can be curious, and want logical explanations of odd (to me) behaviors of others, at times…but when I discover really wiggy or inconsistent or abusive behavior, I don’t try too hard to make sense of it. I’m a “giver upper” at that point! I just accept I will not/do not understand.

            So…I guess I would tell you that with narcs, you’d be on a futile Truth-Seeking Mission that is just a wild goose chase. Any human being that makes up rules as they go…there’s no mystery to solve there, other than the narcissistic patterns (driven by need for fuel) that HG has documented very well for us.

          228. CIF.
            Behaviors never effected me before my N. I would just write it off to he is an ass…she is a bitch. After my N….I want to know why he does things because I find it very interesting the way empaths and N’s are so different.

          229. Kim,
            Understand…but maybe keep in mind it keeps you analyzing him/feeding your addiction.🧚‍♀️

          230. Kim e, a couple of things. First, walking by your car is a step towards an active hoover/engagement. He was testing the waters. Second, I was also a truth seeker for a very long time. I knew something was wrong with MRN and I even put the correct label on it over a year before my final escape, but I did not know what to make of it or how to interpret his actions and words until I found this site. You have all of the information you need right here and so I know you will get there!!

            Update on empath guy – oyster man took me out again last night (we had THE BEST oysters but now it is a running joke because he started it and he has to pay for them). I told him more about MRN, this site and HG, and he totally got it – first try! So he understands my trust issues and general caution. He knows he oversteps and how it could be interpreted. I am enjoying his openness, self-awareness, kindness and generosity, and he seems to think that I am this fantastic, gorgeous catch! (Ha.) It also seems (importantly), that our chemistry is just fine – brilliant, even! He is not my normal type but that is the point. Try a different type, give it a chance, and maybe you will enjoy being treated like the gorgeous, fantastic woman that you are!!

          231. SMH…..Walking past my car was ages ago the first time he hoovered me back in. Then I asked him why he just walks by my car and if he is ever going to just stop and talk to me. He said…what do you mena? I am texting with you now arent I? And after that he never hoovered me in my car again…LOL

            If he wants to figure out where me and my car went to…..he will have to get up really early for him and follow me about 8 miles. More power to him. I am a LS and he is a MRN….too much energy.

            I am so happy for you and empath guy. Fingers crossed. I look for that in my future but I know I have a lot of healing to do first.

          232. Kim, I had alotta healing to do too. I don’t think there was any one thing that made me go aha, I am there. I just kept super busy for seven months and tested the waters with a few completely inappropriate men. I talked to one of them the other day (work gigolo) and my heart did not go pitter patter. I was also very patient with oyster man, partly because I did not want to rush into anything and partly because I thought I was reading him correctly and he would calm down, which he has. That all came from giving myself time to get my head screwed on straight and coming here a lot! Doesn’t mean the relationship will ‘work out’ but at least there is room to see. You are following my pattern so closely (same kind of relationship, same kind of narc, multiple escapes, difficulties with ET, etc) that I know you will get there.

            Regarding being called out on a hoover, MRN did the same thing – at one point, during a six month NC period he visited my LinkedIn anonymously every month like clockwork. Of course I knew it was him – first because he was rigid and regimented so the clockwork thing was a tip off, and second because who else would do that? It pretty much stopped as soon as I mentioned it in my ‘break up’ email, further confirmation that it was him. Who knows why they act like that – so cowardly.

          233. Kim, I’ll be away over the weekend but I wish you a great one and next week. Been following this thread, thinking, you’ve shared lots and that takes courage. Cheers.

          234. CIF, if I changed his name to that is because I am no hero. I didn’t cut off any links in the blink of an eye. He hurt me very deeply by triangulation. He constantly compared me to another woman, in the same professional field we both have but younger than me. He tried to make me feel inferior to her, unfit to be with him, constantly striving to look sexier, to sound smarter, to be on top. Of course now I know he was testing her too. He was basically making us compete for him. That’s after reading HG’s books and understanding what the whole game was about. And that’s when I decided I was so much better than all this stupid game. Someone who really loves you doesn’t try to make you feel bad about who you are but instead helps you discover how wonderful you are. So “love yourself” was a way to remind me of how he will always try to destroy my self esteem to build his. And if he needs to destroy another person to stop feeling good about himself, that is his problem, not mine anymore. Kim will find her way at her own time. It took me a while too, this is not as easy as it sounds when we talk about it. It’s just that when you have managed to get out of it you can’t help wanting to stop people from getting in, like seeing the invisible hole they are about to step in and not being listened to.

          235. SP,
            Did you get my reply to you on this? I sent it — but then got a message the site was down (for 10 minutes?)…I can’t see the whole thread right now, so just let me know, and I will resend my reply to you!🙂 I just sent Kim a reply too, so I hope that goes through!

          236. CIF, I didn’t get anything! I’m glad you let me know, please resend it if you don’t mind!

          237. SP,
            You said:
            “Someone who really loves you doesn’t try to make you feel bad about who you are, but instead, helps you discover how wonderful you are.”

            That is such a golden truth nugget, SP…and so much better than any “Golden” period with a narc, as that reflective truth of yours can’t be taken away you. It’s obvious you are even stronger today, SP, having gone through that kind of emotional pain. You’re a good example of overcoming.🥰

            There really are life lessons to be learned from dealing with a narcissist. I know some feel the horrors of their entanglement with a narc outweighs any benefit, and I’m sensitive to that…for me, the lessons have been worthwhile. My biggest lesson has been about how to stay true to who I am — to not become hardened & still have the same level, or more, of compassion/tenderness (MY HEART) — but also never allow being mistreated/abused by another (logic+discernment+self-love=MY HEAD/BOUNDARIES).

            I think I’m at a pretty good balance now (though I have to pause at times, to continue to make sound decisions on personal boundaries)…and this balancing act gives me even more peace.

          238. CIF, thanks for your words. I am happy to see you are also on the right path. However, our comments exchange has made me reflect this morning: am I really that strong? Do I have strong boundaries, or was it just a question of knowledge? Many people think the ones that get out are smarter or have a stronger personality, when it is a question of getting strong through knowing what you are dealing with. I was lucky enough to be already educated on different forms of abuse and manipulation when I started seeing the narc, so, even if I didn’t know what narcissism entailed, I knew the way he suddenly started to treat me is not the way I want to be treated. I also knew he said one thing and did another, and I am a person of action, not of words. I work with words, I know they are a powerful tool to create a mirage, so I can read through them. Because I had some knowledge, the narc only had the opportunity to start trying his manipulations on me before I already was looking for answers online and I was lucky enough to find HG’s works almost immediately. Any prior knowledge I could have had on manipulative behavior multiplied immensely after reading him. There was no choice but to implement NC after knowing what I know now. No second chances, no fake friendship. Nada. It is over. And when it is over for me, it is dead and buried. He knew this, I warned him even before reading HG, so imagine after the knowledge I have now. That’s why I believe knowledge is always the answer. Knowledge is power. “Once you know, YOU GO.” Wiser words have never been spoken about this.

          239. SP,
            Yep…for me, I reflect on the numerous “breaking up” minis I did throughout the FR, which I now recognize as me protecting myself (an instinctive, gut feeling), from what could have been more/higher-level harm to me directly — and indirectly, to others I cared about…the narcissist handled me, in a sense, in such a manner (and I was so pretty busy) so that it just didn’t register to me as him being an abuser. I came on this site later down the road, well after I left him, when he Hoovered again…and it was then it really pinged.

            For me, the strength comes when you know…and you will yourself to go – when you determine to be strong to end it, for yourself, simply because you know this person is bad for you. For me, the strength is about being willing to suffer through the emotional pain — to come out free.

            Then you apply that strength overall in other areas of your life, and you start to become the strong (yet still compassionate) person you never stopped believing you could be.

          240. Exactly, CIF. And it hurts as fuck. But staying will hurt more and will cause you to lose yourself in the process.

          241. It does, SP…and Kim, THAT is why I got sick to my stomach. I don’t want anymore pain & anxiety for you…and I don’t want you to lose yourself.💜

          242. CIF and SP, I was reading over some old emails to a friend yesterday that I wrote a few months into my entanglement with MRN. I was shocked to realize that I knew what he was and I knew what my LexH was a year and a half before I found this site!! I was using terms like ‘narcissistic supply,’ ‘pity narcissist,’ ‘mid-ranger,’ etc.

            I have no idea what my problem was except that although I knew, I did not have any outside confirmation, because you know how people can be – they think you are exaggerating or making excuses for relationship problems.

            I did escape both relationships on my own (and had done many self-defensive ‘mini-breakups’ with both) but one of the most valuable things that HG does is to VALIDATE what we are experiencing. I think I REALLY needed that validation as well as instructions – someone I respect to say ‘this is what he is and this is what you must therefore do.’ I have no doubt that I would still be entangled in some capacity with MRN had I not found this site.

          243. Absolutely, SMH. Validation is essential. And if it wasn’t for HG, I would probably still have a little bit of hope for my narc’s plans of reuniting after the summer, which he may try again this year. Never ending cycle…

          244. SMH,
            Yes, to validation from HG. I know HG has validated me…over & over, he continues to give me such validation. I often say, “Too much validation of me, HG! Please, stop, enough of your glowing validation!”


            But seriously, it’s an important point, SM. Narcs know narcs…and the Ultra surely knows.<Note the compliment.

          245. Um, ease up on the “love” stuff on my behalf, SMH.😲 Actually, I like to think of HG as my older, “evil genius-like” distant cousin…or maybe uncle.

            I should stop now. I WILL stop. 🤐

          246. Hahaha CIF I was gonna say the same! I don’t love him, I admire him. No love here. He’s a narc. And then I thought it was rude and mean so I didn’t post it but there you go.

          247. SP,
            I don’t think it’s mean or rude – just a little feisty. 🙂 He’s probably ok with our feistiness…it keeps us OUT of narc trouble, more often than not! Well, except with RL challenge fuel, which we aren’t giving, with our stellar NC.🤩

            I’m heading out & offline, so no more feistiness from me…the next time I’m on here, I’ll be back to my usual, demure self. 🧜‍♀️ <a mermaid, instead of an angel, as I don't qualify for 100% angel.

          248. SP,
            I ❤ Mermaid tales…*and* mermaid tails! 🧜‍♀️It would be fun to be a mermaid for a Halloween party…nah, too hard to get around. I’m way off track on here today.🙄


          249. SP, I lol’ed at what you did with his name. Brilliant! And CIF and SP, you two are standing strong but as I said to CIF earlier, I don’t think I have been fully tested and both of you have. That might account for my wishy-washiness. Plus, I can tell when someone is not yet ready for complete NC since I went back and forth so many times. I see myself in some people here – myself two years ago, before I found this site. I can’t say for sure that I would have done things any differently had I found this site earlier. I might have but I might also have not had the courage. What I can say with absolute certainty is that this site went a long way towards curing me and it will eventually cure Kim-e too.

          250. HI SP.
            The real danger was when I answered his text yesterday. Dinner is just dinner. As I know he has a “curfew” when going out on “work” nights, dinner will be all that happens.
            Thanks for the input and please never stop telling me what you thin I should do or not do. Some day, I might really need those words and they might just push me over the NC hump.

          251. The real danger Kim was when you do not implement no contact.

            It is not you might need those words, you already need them.

          252. Kim e, remember: it will be just dinner for you, but it’s fuel for him. There’s also a danger that you get all preppy for the date and he stands you up causing you pain. Move ahead of him and cancel that dinner. It’s my suggestion, of course you can do what you want but I care for you and he doesn’t. ❤️

          253. Plus, like HG has said, it’s the intimacy that you will crave, Kim…and that is what you’ll risk wanting again, with each exposure — that “excitement” that caused the greatest hook into addiction. That’s where your ET can go out the window. As always, your decision…but you know we care & see the emotional danger.

          254. Haha I meant to say “destroy you to stop feeling bad about himself” and instead said the opposite. It’s not a paradox, I got confused for a moment. Using my (il) Logical Thinking!

          255. Kim-e, Keep us posted and if things go south, we will be here. Do try to stay away from the sex though – tell yourself that if it’s meant to be, sex can wait. Just before my final escape, I took a step back (close to sex but did not do it) and observed his behavior for a few weeks without committing to anything. That distance enabled me to say no because I clearly saw what he did, without my anxiety getting in the way or clouding my judgment. I still did not understand because I had not yet found HG, but I knew that it was a pattern, it was what I had been up against for two years, and it was really destructive of any intimacy. I wasn’t going to put myself in that position (no pun intended) again, and I was going to go out on a high note, by saying no. Keep that option open. xo

          256. SMH I am going to give it my all…not not that…to avoid the sex part. I know HG says it wont work but stubbornness and ET are making me do this my way.
            You stated that you observed his behavior for a few weeks after saying no to sex.
            Can I ask how his behavior changed?
            Did he keep trying? Real world examples help me. Since I have never been devalued….just deleted after I flunked a corrective devaluation before I knew what was up….I would love to ask former or current IPPS’s what goes on with a mid. I just can not see him doing it. But I do not want to get too personal with them or cause anything to trigger them.
            Thanks for caring.

          257. Kim-e,

            Here is what happened – I hope it helps. I observed MRN’s behavior BEFORE I said no to sex as well as after.

            We had been six months NC, though he had been hoovering me indirectly the whole time. I contacted him to apologize about something I had done the previous summer – I had lied to him. My ET was pretty low because of the six months NC, two of those months in the same city as him (got myself used to being there without him).

            As soon as I contacted him, he was all over me. He tried to come over that evening and I said no, go home. The next morning he showed up very early (I said it was okay) and we lay on the sofa and talked, kissed and cuddled but did not have sex. We discussed what it meant to get back into the relationship that kept going into a death spiral. He was moving in the next few months (turned out to be six), which I found quite freeing. He still tried to persuade me. But I travel a lot, he said, and we might as well be in different countries now. Yes, I said, exactly. I would not commit to anything.

            He left for work and over the next two weeks he contacted me every day, including at the weekends (rare for him). The first time I contacted him – just checking in – he pushed me away – I could sense it. He triangulated me with myself – are you sure you are okay? Yes, I am okay. Are you sure? Etc. So, that’s what I saw. The contrary behavior. When he thought he was losing me he was in touch every day. As soon as he thought I wanted him, he withdrew and tried to turn me against myself. Before then I could not pinpoint it because my anxiety levels were so high that it could have been due to anything I had done/said. Maybe I freaked him out, etc. This time it was clear.

            At that moment I decided I was not going back. He was waiting to hear about a new job and I did not want to add to his stress, but I did anyway because I wanted him to know his machinations would not work on me anymore. I wrote him a long email that I did not want to return to the relationship. I did not tell him the real reason why (his push/pull behavior) – I just said that I did not want to be in an affair anymore, that I could not make him happy because I was not the source of his unhappiness, that he had to deal with his own life, that I was sure he would find someone to replace me if that’s what he wanted, and that I did not want to be in contact in any capacity unless he left his marriage and could stand on his own two feet.

            That was not the end because a week later he contacted me (no boundaries but mine were weak too so I do not blame him) that he had not gotten the job he wanted. He emailed very late one Saturday night and I was out. When I got in at 1:30 a.m. I emailed him and said it was late that I was sorry about the job but would write in the morning. The next morning I awoke to an email from him (he did not wait for me to email again, as I said I would) saying ‘don’t worry, I am fine.’ That struck me as very odd because why would I be worried?

            The following weeks he wanted a lot of support, which I gave him because I was trying to be a good friend. But eventually I inadvertently wounded him and then all hell broke loose because I got angrier than I ever had when we were together. That is when I found HG and it all became clear.

            I advise against trying to be NISS because the behavior will not change, and I advise against having sex because your ET will go sky high and you will attach. Do not drink at dinner. Keep your mind free and clear.
            Observe but do not engage. (Someone posted a video with a title like that awhile ago. Maybe they will see this and direct you to it.)

            Also, keep telling yourself that there is no rush. Now it is your turn to use sex as a weapon by withholding it. I had some fun playing mind games with MRN that way during the ‘NISS’ phase. I also left the conversation every time he would bring it up, which he often did. Remember how potent a fuel source sex is. You are in charge of it.

          258. SMH. Thank you for telling your story. It has giving me a lot to dwell on especially being in charge of the fuel source.

          259. Kim-e, Yes, yes, yes! If you are going to do battle, use your knowledge and your weapons! I know we empaths do not think this way but you have to fight fire with fire.

          260. Me too, CIF, which makes my entanglement with MRN all that much more mysterious. In the UK, Brits think I am an anarchist but really I am just an American.

          261. SMH,
            Antichrist v confident American Empath…I can see why they get confused. 😂

          262. SMH,
            I was being facetious~anyone who thinks that doesn’t know you. You’re a rockin’, mighty Empath💜💚💙❤💛

          263. Ah CIF, but the devil is in the details. I have been called everything under the sun but I pretty much like antichrist. Think I will throw that into the mix. NO, YOU ARE WRONG. I AM NOT A BITCH. I AM THE ANTICHRIST. It’s like wearing garlic around to ward off vampires.

          264. Kim,
            Hmmm…cryptic…I shall think about the meaning of this on my way into work…🤔

            BTW, if you, SMH or SP feel like it, I could use a spot of “Empath support” tomorrow, as in if anyone wants to just check in on me once…and you know it’s semi-serious if I even ask, as I have an *unhealthy* degree of never asking for help. It’s nothing at all to worry about, but it’s a day where I will just need to crouch low…I will be relieved when tomorrow is over!

          265. CIF. Meant to say Working my way towards it.
            And Of Course I will check on you as many times and for as long as needed for the rest of your life if needed. I will take my special super duper Empath vitamins tomorrow. You have my support forever.
            Cant speak for SMH or SP but I am sure they are behind you also.

            Also, an update for you and SMH. My N came home early. I couldn’t believe my eyes. I literally stared at his truck thinking it was a mirage. Anxiety pretty low considering. I did go over the weekend and figured out parking at the other train lot if it comes to that.
            Hugs lady and smoochies and wine and rum and pizza!!!!!

          266. Kim,
            You’re so cute…thank you, for your support & sweetness. And please stay away from the Mid…as I’m being super strong tomorrow, you be too, okay?💕 Gotta run (due to tomorrow, I now have to rearrange my today)…will report back as soon as I can.🙂

          267. CIS, I’ll be thinking of you and will be here for you tomorrow -provided HG is not too busy with other things and we can communicate-. I’m not sending prayers because being a Carrier, I wish I could do something more practical than that. But I’ll be here 🥰

          268. Thanks, SP~much appreciated💗After sending this, I’ll be in-between connection all day & maybe into eve (work-related), so I’m not sure if I’ll be on later tonight…I was going to say, regarding me tomorrow, “no news is good news”…but, in reality, no news could be good OR bad news. 😂 My last thing to say is do NOT worry about me, as I’m very resourceful & even tougher than I seem. I’ve gotten a “heads up” (from a non-flying monkey and dear friend), so I know exactly what to do tomorrow…and just knowing others (my empath sisters) who understand this kind of weirdness…well, it makes me feel even better. I will feel the positive vibes.💛

          269. CIF, how are you doing today? Hope everything goes smoothly, I’m here with you if you wanna talk. 😘

          270. SP,
            Thank you!🥰 He came…he saw (that he couldn’t locate me)…he left. My ex-BF, that is. I just replied to SMH & NA on it…but I’m in the clear now. Thank you for the sweet support! I can now relax this evening, as I head back for a work function.😎

          271. Hi CIF, Glad you made it through – funny (odd funny) that both you and Kim-e had close calls. Hope it does not mean that I am next! I was checking in yesterday but did not see you post. I am happy you have now and that Caroline-is-Fine :). xo

          272. I really AM fine😀…that name addition sure is working out splendidly. 🌼

          273. I’m really happy to read that, CFI! I’m reading frantically all the comments as I try to do some work and can’t keep up with everything fast enough

          274. CIF, That is clever and I do think our names on here give insight into our characters and/or state of mind. Mine is complete disbelief at the ridiculousness partly that people like narcs exist and partly that I was so stupid. It is also disgust and a nod towards knowing that I was right that something was really off . It’s kind of like I am myself – worldly and naive in equal measure!

          275. CIF, just saw this. Of course I will check in tomorrow: Kim-e will be here to geyser, I’ll be here to savior, and SP will be here to carrier – it’s the perfect empath trio!! If you need advice before you do anything, ask first! I will check in early! xoxo

          276. Thanks so much for your kindness, SMH💙…looks like I pulled off today’s 3-ring circus! I have to go back in soon, for a work-related function this evening, but my ex-BF should be out of my general area by now. He WAS here though, unbelievable. If I had not changed where I was supposed to be today, he would have found me (I maneuvered it so that I was with a high-level individual all day, which meant no public access).

            I’d really appreciate it if someone would implant a locator chip in my ex…would be easier.😎 But I’m happy that I handled it ok today, without informing, nor involving, anyone else in this (except my empath sisters!)… I should be in the clear for a good while now.🤗

          277. CIF, I love the idea of a locator chip – they are so sneaky. Maybe HG can work on that – not so we can find them but so that we can avoid them. You did a stellar job there missy, so kudos to you!

          278. Thanks, SMH.💛 (And I’m thinking HG is opposed to the chip idea, on narcissistic principle.😎)

          279. CIF, I don’t have a chip but I have my alert system. I know the dates he’ll be out of town (summer vacation/ winter…) and I have friends who alert me. As he posts everything he does on social media, they let me know if he’s gonna be at some event for example. I know what grocery stores he doesn’t like so I shop in those ones, etc. I call it “anti-stalking,” moving before he does to avoid an encounter. It’s a lot of work but we live in the same town, share colleagues and friends, and I have never run into him since I started NC except for a mutual professional event that I couldn’t avoid for professional interests.

          280. Sweet SP,
            Very wise of you! I’m sorry I addressed you as SMH…my new tablet is taking some getting used to — it’s more advanced than my last version, so it somehow messes me up more, until I work out the kinks…kind of like a Greater that way.🤔

          281. HG I do not believe the N ever truly disengages. He might loosen the ties but never truly disengages. IF he did there would be no hoover.

          282. No, he never truly discards – disengage is entirely accurate. It means you’re not thrown away never to be used again (like discarding the wrapper on a chocolate bar) but the narcissist has no current use for you but you are still in effect retained by the narcissist for future use (you disengage the hand brake on your car but the handbrake is still there to be used when necessary).

          283. HG, Just to clarify – I don’t mean whether one should be friends with an ex-narc but rather that the dynamic might be different if you were discarded or escaped. Sorry if I am not being clear but I am very tired.

          284. Kim e

            Ive read the majority of the thread.

            You obviously seem confident with your decision to see him. And admit you’re ET is making the decision for you. This is clearly the right choice for you. You seem excited about it.

            There. Did the reverse psychology work?

          285. Kim,
            One more thing. What all *specifically* is your ET telling you, about the flier Hoover?

          286. Caroline…LOLLOLOLOL SHIT….didnt mean to hit enter…..LOL I am off to go out tonight for a birthday. Maybe I will take all my junk mail out of my recycle bin tonight and…………..

          287. Hi, Kim!
            I wrote you back yesterday on this, but I think HG’s having fun with that TV series analysis (from a glance at the comment bar), so I’ll wait to see if it ever posts…I leave at a startling 4 a.m. on another work-related trip tomorrow (Sunday), and I’ll zip you out a new note while traveling, if the last one doesn’t hit by tomorrow! It was so good to hear from you.
            Caroline x

  8. I thought this was a new article as I hadn’t seen it before. I am pretty sure I squeeze into 8 of the category you list HG. I don’t think I can see any others you missed, very thorough indeed!

  9. You forgot the “self righteous HG fangirl”. Not all HG fangirls are self righteous, but the subset who are make me want to start a keyboard war