Come One, Come All

 come-one-come-all

My kind need people. We do not like to admit it as the suggestion of reliance on somebody else brings with it connotations of weakness and this dents our sense of omnipotence. It is however an inescapable fact. We do not like it and indeed this is in part the thing which drives our devaluing behaviour. I need other people because I need to gather fuel from those people through their emotional responses to me. I am often asked and sometimes lambasted for it, whether I obtain fuel from my writing and interaction with those who comment on it, asking questions and advancing their own experiences and theories. I freely admit I do so but emphasise that since all of those who I interact with are remote strangers then in accordance with the fuel index, the amount of fuel that I receive is very low. Nevertheless, it is naturally welcome and I am far more content to receive it than not. The receipt of this fuel though is not the driving force behind why I write and share my experiences, observations and increasing awareness. The receipt of fuel is neither the key reason why I interact with the many people who take the time to comment and question me. I interact with my readers because I gain by exhibiting my works to them. I interact because I learn from my readers, by understanding their views, their responses and their desires. I interact because they can learn from me and the dissemination of my knowledge is a powerful sensation indeed. I interact because I find the questions posed often challenging, invariably interesting and stimulating. I interact because I am interested in the lives and experiences of those who have found themselves participating with me. I also often find them entertaining and humorous too. Through my writing and the almost daily interaction with these people I have also come to recognise that these people fall in to particular groups. I have observed this repeatedly and I wanted to share this observation with you. You may recognise people belonging to these groups and have your own views about that inclusion. You may indeed recognise which group you belong to and quite possibly further categorisations which have not yet occurred to me. I would be interested to know. So, what are these groups?

  1. The Angered

Admittedly not a large group, but there are those who present full of anger and hatred, either towards my kind and even me specifically even though we have never met. Of course, I am representative of my kind, albeit a superior version and therefore it is to be expected that I would take some flak for this. I understand how badly people have been hurt and abused by my kind and therefore this anger is entirely natural. I have no issue whatsoever in people telling me what a bastard I am, that they would like to punch me in the mouth or that I should be taken out and shot. If people wish to vent their spleen in such a fashion, they should feel free to do so. They may feel better about it and of course it is just fuel to me.

  1. The Confused

There are those who are completely bewildered by what has happened and this state persists for some time, despite the explanations that I provide and the clarity through which I articulate these explanations. That is not to suggest that these people are thick or stupid, far from it, but is in fact testament to just how confusing, disorientating and perplexing our behaviour can be. Many people in this group cannot fathom out how our kind can be as we are and moreover how we cannot know what we are. It is pleasing to watch as the understanding suddenly forms over time, as the pieces fit together and the whole narcissistic experience begins to make sense. I often find that it is when those people begin to realise that they have to adopt our perspective in order to gain understanding. That is often the breakthrough moment

  1. The Answer Seeker

This group embodies one of the fundamental traits of empathic people; the need to know and understand. Question after question is posed, usually based on their own experiences in order to assist them in fathoming out what type of narcissist this person became entangled with, why the narcissist did as he did and what can be expected to happen next. Occasionally, this group may pose questions which are hypothetical but in the main the repeated and valid asking of questions is premised on what has happened to them.

  1. The Sponge

This group comprises of Answer Seekers but goes beyond this. They wish to know and understand everything there is to know about the narcissistic experience. They need to understand what happened to them but also find considerable interest in the experience of others and then applying their new found knowledge to unravelling the mysteries of the tales from other people. This group cannot get enough of the knowledge and understanding, they wish to examine every facet of narcissism, whether it is from the victim’s perspective or that of the narcissist. They need to know why, how and what. These people soak up all this knowledge and do so with a healthy understanding of their tolerance to do so as they place understanding above emotional response.

  1. The Burnt Victim

This group consists of people who find the whole entanglement with the narcissist still very raw. They may not be confused as they know what they have been ensnared by and they are beginning to understand the essentials of what has happened and why. Moments come when the content is difficult to stomach, the wounds still raw and painful and this may result in occasional absences, yet, the desire to have those wounds heal and push through the pain with commendable bravery sees these people pressing on with their interaction and understanding, no matter how much it continues to hurt.

  1. The Narcissists

As one might expect, my work will attract those who are of my kind and those who perhaps are not quite narcissists but have strong traits in that regard. These people recognise what they are and are content to share this as well as learn more about themselves by reading the words of one of their own. Occasionally they bristle and raise their hackles, once in a while lashing out, leaving others in no doubt as to what they are, but invariably they recognise my arena as a place of knowledge and learning and are content to engage in that as the primary purpose.

  1. The Unwitting Narcissists

From time to time this very small group has a membership when one of our kind wanders by and repeatedly exhibits all the traits which demonstrate that they are one of our kind, but they do not see it. Indeed, their blame-shifting, projection and deflection are manifestly obvious, but not to them for they have no insight. It is not in accordance with the five rules for me to tell them what they are, but I always recognise my kind when they alight here and from time to time they do.

  1. The Introspectives

This group comprises those who wish to learn about the narcissistic experience, ask questions and soak up the knowledge but in doing so, the experience is as much learning about my kind as understanding what they are and why they became entangled or keep becoming entangled. These people see the benefit of beginning to understand themselves by understanding the behaviour of their tormentor and are keen to grasp what it is about them, their behaviour, their past and their characteristics which influences their choices.

  1. The Staters of the Obvious

This group, which is small, consists of those who seem to believe that they have to tell me what I am. I do not include those who advance an idea or theory in a respectful manner based on their own experience and understanding. It is evident when somebody is doing that and such a constructive approach is always welcomed. The Staters of the Obvious have a tendency to tell me what I already know, do so in a derogatory fashion and make it appear as if it is some major revelation to me. For instance, they may announce,

“Your kind are just all spoilt children and you will never be happy.”

Thanks for that. That is illuminating.

Or I am advised,

“You are just a fucking waste of space and karma will get you because you are empty and evil.”

Glad we cleared that up then.

It is of course fuel and many who engage in this do so not because they are angry but because they believe they understand what I am more than I do myself. They are incorrect. This often happens when someone comes across my material for the first time and races to such injudicious pronouncements without digesting more of my work which will soon reveal to them that my level of awareness is considerable. I do find that those individuals flare up and vanish very quickly when the bite they are hoping for does not come. It is easy to play with such people and I could amuse myself by doing so, working them up into a frenzy as they unwittingly realise they are pouring fuel in my direction but that is not a productive use of my time.

  1. On the Up

This group consists of those who are recovering and supplementing their recovery with additional knowledge and understanding. They have a clear direction of where they are going and in typical empathic style they wish to share their experiences and help others. This is not done in a bragging manner (see the group below) and it is not expressed so it is “all about them” but is rather done from the purpose of giving encouragement and inspiring others that there is a way forward and a path through the pain. This group are keen to detail constructively what has worked for them and what has not. Their recollections are often under-stated, modest and sensible.

  1. Point to Prove

By contrast to the above group, those members in this small group feel the need to repeatedly declare how much of a champion they are for surviving. Indeed, I understand the pride which must come to the fore after having suffered horrendously and then having moved forward, but the frequent need to shout this from the rooftops tends to suggest to me that the progress is not as great or a secure as they would like others to believe. Indeed, I often regard those in this group, as compared to those above, as being more in it for themselves and do it more to bash and bait my kind, rather than truly revel in the advancement of their own recovery and those of their fellow victims.

  1. The Weaponising Empath

This group is one of the larger, if not the largest group I find I am interacting with. It consists of people who realise that they have access to a unique resource which they can use repeatedly to help themselves by understanding. They know they can ask questions, read as much or as little as they require, they frame considered and respectful questions and do so in order to understand, to acquire knowledge, to defend themselves and to enable them to tackle the effects and influence of the narcissist or narcissists in their life. The members of this group recognise that they can gain far more by engaging with me than seeking to point score, but that does not mean they will necessarily accept everything that is stated with querying or even challenging it. They adopt an open-minded approach to the ongoing process that they find themselves a part of and are enthusiastic in being able to avail themselves of a rare and unusual source of knowledge. They are able to put to one side any distaste they may have at “fraternising with the enemy” by reason of their empathic nature (they recognise what has happened to my kind as well) and the fact they know they stand far more to gain by extracting knowledge and observation than by engaging in a bun fight. Many appear within this group from the start and others gravitate towards it during their interaction with me. It is a beneficial and rewarding group for its members and for me as well.

Do any of these groups seem familiar to you? Perhaps there are others I have missed. Perhaps you identify which one you belong to. I would be interested to read your observations.

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405 Comments

  1. Kim,
    I forgot to add one thing (I can’t find a reply button, so I have no idea where this will land)…

    About narcissists, in general… trying to push boundaries & it all being a crazy cycle of impossible. It really is no-win, no matter what the situation. For instance, when I said the G was doing me a favor (on some thread, somewhere) by refusing to be “just friends” with me, he has always been firm on that, which is the only possible scenario I can even see, for myself. The aspect where my ET will need to be challenged is if he ever says differently on that… and I mean him breaking through my NC to say so, because I *am* NC. This is my weak point: my thinking a NISS situation would be ok… because then I’ll think it’s totally doable… dangerous thinking, which I get, and yet I still think it. I guess at least I’m aware…

    I’m also wise enough to realize that even if he got onboard with NISS, that would likely be him only reeling me in, to attempt a different scenario later. It does puzzle me why he doesn’t go with “just friends,” but even my having brought that up irritated him, like an insult. So go figure… some stuff is just a mystery. Like you, that is one thing I may be curious of the “why” on, but I know it’s got something to do with NPD, which is good enough for me… so I can let it go unanswered.

    Have a great, empowering rest of the weekend, doll! 🙂
    P.S. A spot of irony: he’s insulted at my suggesting “just friends,” and frankly, I’m a little insulted that he doesn’t want to be my friend! (almost like it hurts my feelings). It’s IMPOSSIBLE… which is exactly as it should be.

    1. Caroline
      So why does “friends” not work after being intimate with a narc since intimacy doesn’t mean anything to they anyway. Is it still all control? Fuel?
      My narc told me when we were discussing sex before we became intimate that sex is just the act. The intimacy comes in with the cuddling afterwards. In the beginning it was as described in the old days “wham bam thank you ma’am”. But as it progressed there was the cuddling afterwards. Intimacy….stop the presses. Or pure positive fuel since we empath equate intimacy with love
      W used to always tell me “I don’t do emotions.” And I would say “ that is an emotion by not doing it”

      Sorry you are having to rehash stuff in your mind with your G.

      Sorry. Just needed to ramble today with someone other than the person in my mind

      1. Kim,

        No problem, on “my” G…I feel strong in my mindset. It’s just the SM stuff that I stay away from, for varied reasons. I’m also being careful, in other ways.

        As for the G’s denial of “friendship.” First off, he probably truly enjoys denying me something, lol! But his stance also does go way back & is consistent, so my guess is it’s several things…I left him/escaped, so there’s always that massive insult to rectify; and he has brought that topic up 3-4 times, like he seriously cannot *believe* I left him (wounding/he’s baffled not only that I left him — but that I stopped returning his calls afterward & never showed up to see him again either/never tried to “get back together”)…and his “never friends” policy with me is also how he sees me in the fuel matrix (and has to do with residual benefits, which he has actually highlighted to me). Control of me is *always* an issue for him, as is feeling more powerful himself when I’m in the IPPS position — and then there’s that fuel I give, which is not all “sweetness & light,” trust me… it includes challenge to him, which I think he likes (has some to do with the type of empath I am, in relation to the type of narcissist he is)… so that’s my best reasoning on most of it. He also has a surprisingly (to me) perfectionistic/fantasy-like view of our dynamic.

        Guess what he still has mover mentioned to me, ever? If any of this is good for ME. So there you have it…NPD, at its finest.

        Back to you…

        What the narcissist said to you about sex/cuddling was part of his façade… and of course he “does emotions” — just not much in the way of the really positive ones! He probably said that to make you feel insecure/off-balance, as well as out of instinct, should you pick up on the fact there’s something way off about him.

        I’m headed into work, so I’ll check the site later tonight, but you’re not rambling! You’re connecting and processing and doing a good thing for yourself, by getting feedback/support on here. Go you!

        (Did you try the pro/con list on Hoovers? :-))

        1. Caroline,
          Hello. Pretty good day. Busy and it just went by very quickly but I was tired today. Just got home from working out and I figured I better do my homework and get it out of the way
          My list of pros and cons for a hoover is a no brainer. If I really wanted a hoover and really thought I would receive one, I would unblock him. ( I can nottell a lie. I have unblocked him a couple times but then blocked again right away.) So there really are no Pros and all the reasons in the world are cons.
          The real issue I need guidance with is this ever presence. This weekend was also rough because he was home from vacation and I knew it. Don’t know why that triggers me but it does. Not like I think he is going to run over here knock on the door and say OMG I MISSED YOU SO MUCH!! But that is a trigger. That is a trigger I need to work on myself with self talking.
          Any suggestions for calming down the ever presence would be appreciated And any other homework you think will help.
          If after he is gone for August I trigger when he is back, I might have to consult with HG so he can smack me around and say WHY????? He is a narcissistic.
          Need to shower……the gym was about 5973475 degrees!!!
          Talk later

          1. Kim,
            In your case, it really IS location, location, location! I don’t find it odd at all that you’re triggered by his being home. He’s in way too close proximity to you! I know I asked before (kind of tongue-in-cheek), but I also was being serious: Can you move??

            You have such continual physical reminders of him where you live, which are bigger than just a song playing or catching a whiff of the cologne he wears. I think *any* Empath would have a much harder time with ET.

            For the time being, I’d say immersing yourself in things that keep your mind occupied at home (i.e., a riveting book or movie/chatting on the phone with a girlfriend/cooking/baking/hands-on hobbies), but the other thing is — as much as you can — get out of your house to go do things, when you’re ruminating on him… whether that be taking a walk… running errands… dropping by a friend’s house…going to the gym, etc. That kind of thing breaks up ever-presence.

            Talking to HG will probably help too!

          2. Caroline,
            I will not move or change my job. Fuck that. I am learning little tricks to help tone down the ever presence and know that time is the greatest healer. I also have become a lot less hyper-vigilant as I know he is locked out electronically and really doesn’t have the balls (as previous agreed on) to passive hoover me in person.
            Thanks for the advise on getting rid of the ever presence I do keep busy.
            And as for my Pro & con hoover list….it is Pros -0-, Cons 225….lol
            Hope all is good with you.
            And yes HG…if I need you I know where to find you.
            Smoochies to you both

          3. Kim,
            So, in this case only, let yourself be 100% conned! 😉
            #TheConsHaveIt
            #RememberTheConListIfYou’reHoovered

            I’m glad you’re keeping busy~that really does help. 🙂

          4. Caroline -is-Fine
            Glad to see “is fine” back.
            I have a poll for you to take pleez.
            Let me set the scenario for you.
            I get to the train station at 535am and sit in my car listening to whatever my fancy is for the morning and sipping my tea. As the cars pull in around me I know that the girl that smokes drives the black one. The bald man drives the gold one. The construction guy drives the grey one. I see these cars/people Monday thru Friday most weeks. There are also cars that are already there that I recognize because these people take the earlier train Monday thru Friday. there are approximately 1000 parking spots at this location. I used to park in 196….I now park in 73….123 spots away from where I used to park.
            OK…so tonight I get in my car and notice something on my windshield. I get out and it is a flyer/advertisement for a sandwich shop in the area. I take it off the car and get back in it. I start the car and turn on the AC. I am sitting there waiting for my turn to pull out and notice no other cars have this flyer on them. Not the normal cars I see everyday that are still parked there. Not the cars that parked near me after I got out of my car in the morning to go to the train. As I am driving out of the lot, I look down numerous parking aisles and not ONE OTHER CAR HAS A FLYER!!!!!
            SO…..here are your poll choices:
            1. My car looked hungry and someone thought they were helping.
            2. It was very windy today and this “Flyer” flew under my windshield wiper
            3. I won a sandwich and was not informed.
            4. My car was hoovered again in the train parking lot.
            5. This was narc’s way of saying “Hi. I know where you park”
            6. Time to move my parking spot again.
            7. Coincidence that this is how I was hoovered before.
            You may choose as many as you deem apply.
            I am going to work out and then come home and have a couple rum and cokes. I am off work tomorrow. It is Kim day…a facial, mani/pedi, massage and comedy club.
            I really am ROFLMAO at the strangeness of this.
            Smooches

          5. Kim,
            Well thank God!…I thought that was going to end up being some sort of math riddle, lol (5:35 a.m./1,000 spots/park in 196/now in 73/123 spots away).

            So… if I’m the only one taking this poll, my answer will be 100% accurate, correct? 🙂

            Can’t wait to get back to you on this tonight (almost out the door to work), but DO NOT GO TO THAT SANDWICH SHOP!

            Hugs,
            Caroline… my fine self 😉

          6. Kim,

            I’m baaaaaack! I’m going “out on the town” much later on tonight, so I’m hoping you’re around before then, so we can chat… but I’m headed out realllllly late tonight, so we have plenty of time… and no, I’m not going out so late because I’m a hooker! (Why would I even feel the need to say that, lol!)

            So…….my EPC (“Empath Probability Calculator”) indicates the chances that the freaky sandwich flyer is a Hoover is (bleep-blop-bleep-blop-bleepy-blop-zing-zop computer sound)… is…(drum roll)…94.896%!

            So we are going with the overwhelming odds: it’s a Hoover!

            Now, as an Empath who understands where you are at, I know this will make you feel good… and you know what? That’s totally okay — feel good!!! (I got this, HG… please don’t look at me disapprovingly — I’m headed to good places).

            So Kim, before we continue our chat, the first (most important thing!) I want to say is that you are now in the cat bird’s seat (I should look that expression up, to make sure it applies/but you catch my drift)…sooooo…you want to KEEP the self-affirming, validating feeling you are now feeling — and you *can* — so you do NOT want to give it away… Do NOT want to.

            Right, Kim?
            Are you with me? (Hoping you haven’t had too many rum + Cokes to reply!) 😉

          7. Caroline…….LOL. I am ok with this. It did make me feel good…ego talking. But he can cover my car with flyers…..wish he would use some with discounts I want……but if that is all hes got big deal. Not gonna freak until I actually see him hoovering with my own 2 eyes.
            Professor HG always told me that my narc likes it when I go to him not the other way around. Gives him POWER……hate to tell him but this power source is not reconnecting.
            Now I realize this could be all big talk now and could change but this is where I am now and that is all I can deal with. A minute at a time. I am not unrealistic and think he will not keep trying. I am sure this is only the beginning. BUT I GOT THIS!!!!

          8. Kim,
            Ok, then I shall not mess with this by chatting much more about it (sometimes less is more). HG is completely right about the power dynamic, so keep that in mind – and enjoy a bit of an ego boost. If you stay with what you’re doing (no movement toward the narc), you retain a sense of your own personal power, and that builds & helps your ET. Keep this small gift. Look at it like a bit of a reward for hanging tough.

            Now… let’s go out there and have big fun tonight!

            Cheers, girl.

          9. Caroline Is Fine
            WOW…3 steps backwards is where I am right now. That stupid piece of paper on my car is really playing mind fuckery with me. WOW. I am floored. I was good Friday and no matter what I did over the weekend, the memories came rushing back in. Anxiety…thinking “when did he do it?” “Did he follow me in the morning again”
            I moved my parking spot again……I wont give you a math problem this morning LOL……
            If papers are flying around again and land on my car, I hate to do it but I will have to go to a completely different train station. The station I use now is 1 mile from my house. Closest next one is 8 miles. ***^&#(^#&%$&^(@!!!!!!!
            August will be a reprieve as he is gone from 7/29 thru 8/31.
            Otherwise the rest of the weekend was ok. How about you? Good Weekend? I managed to get wasted on margaritas on Friday night. I have not done that in forever. And I still maintained NC. Patting self on back for that.
            I get your comment about not chatting about it too much. Just needed to spout off.
            Have a great day as I plan on it. We have both earned it. Steps forward and back and we are still surviving.
            HI HG!!!

          10. Kim,

            See? See how strong you really are? You kept NC even after that stupid flier Hoover. Nicely done!

            It’s completely understandable that the flier messed with your emotions, as that was the narcissist’s purpose. So let me step in, for a brief moment, as the whiny, sniveling voice of the monotonous Mid-Ranger (his thoughts, after his lackluster Hoover attempt):

            “Why didn’t she respond to that??”
            “Have I lost my hold on her?”
            “Why isn’t she trying to contact me or bump into me?”
            “Why-oh-why isn’t she there to distract me from my boring, fake, duplicitous persona — after my listless, unimaginative flier effort — so I can mess with her some more, and get my pathetic ego stroked?” (Oops, sorry — that last voice was me, not him…heh.)

            As for your potential parking inconvenience…being 1 mile away, versus 8…a difference of 7 miles (I gots me superior subtraction math skills, eh?). It’s a bummer if you’d need to do that BUT…

            If it gives you emotional peace of mind and added strength, I think it’d be well worth it. So I’d see how it goes.

            My weekend was good, but I’m not 100% Hoover-proof (and not much I can do about the area I’m not), so things could be better. However, I think I’m getting a little better at shoring up my weak spot: false guilt. It’s a big area for me, so I’m a work in progress.

            Cheers to your margaritas, senorita! 😉

          11. Caroline Is Sick Of Kim….HI….LOL
            It just blows my mind that a grown man would think that putting a flyer on my car I am automatically going to run back to him and say “did you want lettuce or Cheese Whiz on that?”……
            That is one of the things that kept me attached so long…..wondering what was gonna happen next. Guess I am still there huh? I mean what is gonna happen next. Head back on a shwivel but not as bad as it used to be.
            The first time my car was hoovered with a piece of paper it was dark out side as it was December. this time it was light out and that part freaks me out the most.
            OK…gonna drop it HG…I can hear you mumbling…….”not your concern…he is a narc”.
            Getting on with the day. and life. Hopefully day over way before life is.
            Thanks for all Caroline.
            Smoochies and chocolate bonbons for youi

          12. I’m definitely not sick of you, Kim (my G, yes, but not you–Cheese Whiz, am I sick of HIM).

            Well, I’d love to share how deep the bizarreness of grown narcissistic men goes, but I better not right now (Maybe I can regale you with stories later though).

            You’ve grown quite a lot through this, Kim. Your anxiety also seems lower, so keep it up! NC, NC, NC.

            As for “what happens next”…I think I’d try to focus on the agenda of narcissists driving the “next” thing, so there’s no (to us) rhyme or reason to it. This is where logic will help you. Since their nature is driven by something impossible for us to be able to control, you can count on one thing: what happens next is unpredictable… so, for me, what happens next is driven by their needs (fuel) & meaningless. And when it’s like that, I think it’s easier to also wrap your mind around them not having normal attachment/care for others, including us. For me, that’s a buzz kill, as in “no thanks–I’ll pass.” (Says the empath who thought she could fairly easily maneuver the G into a benign NISS situation & would then be “home free”/poor, misguided Caroline-is-fine, lol)

            Anyway, I find that continuing to apply logic makes it MUCH easier to not take it personally, nor get too wrapped up in it; instead, keep the focus on their nature & what that means. Because (I think) the answer to almost every question about the WHY is that they have NPD, and it’s all part of their disorder. The exact reasons are sometimes a puzzle to even the narcissist, so how on earth can we figure it out?

            I’m not immune to wondering about things at times either, because you do get sucked into thinking of it in a normal way, because WE think in a normal way, so you just want it to make sense. But it doesn’t, because they’re disordered. At least we know now. That’s everything. It’s really all we need; the rest we can toss. The rest is smoke & mirrors… lots of mirrors. LOL

            So whenever I start to play Nancy Drew in piecing cause/effect together about the G, I always end up realizing I’m wasting my time even thinking about/analyzing/worrying about it… which starts to annoy me… because haven’t they already taken up enough of our time?

            Logic. Logic. Logic.

          13. Caroline-is-fine….I have to apologize to you for letting my narcissistic tendencies show and making this all about me I did not realize you were still struggling with your G. I am sorry for that. I should have known better as the struggle is real since as you said it makes no sense.
            I have to admit there are times I let the ET wash over me, bask in its glory, and then say WOAH>>>>>>thats enough. IT is not good and you can not be free unless you learn to not allow it in at all. I realize I have a journey to finish this as I can feel that I am still in the storm. Maybe it was that little hoover last week. Maybe it is the fact that Cheese Whiz was on sale this week.
            And next time the only mirrors I want to see will be on the ceiling…wink wink.
            Thanks for all Caroline.

          14. Kim,
            I’m running late, so I’ll email back later on this afternoon/tonight, but two very important things I must say, real quickly:

            First, and perhaps most important, NEVER BUY CHEESE WHIZ ON SALE. I mean, never buy it at all — but NEVER, EVER when on sale! (lol)… And…

            You are not, in any way, showing “narcissistic tendencies”!

            Gotta run, more on the rest later! 🙂

          15. Kim,
            Back again! (home early today)… No worries about my G. It’s good for me to engage here, and I get a lot out of our chats too, so no need to even thank me! 🙂

            The G will do what he’ll do. I’m not going to let it plague my mind too much. Do I get anxious at times? Yes, but there’s probably cause to have some level of concern now. However, he has to inconvenience himself to keep at it with me, so I’m just staying low to the ground & moving forward with all else in my life. I’ll deal with him again if/when I have to… but wow, is he AWFUL when things don’t go his way. I read something a bit ago that HG wrote about manipulations and a tube of toothpaste that was a really good example of what a narcissist will do to get control, under what circumstances. Shoot — I forgot the title — but anyway, in HG’s example, I’m the fairly flat tube of toothpaste to the G, because I’m pretty hard to control (I know, a real shocker, lol)… so, pretty much, it’s going to take way too much effort for the G to get something out of me (the paste left in the tube for him), so I’m just waiting for him to throw the tube out! Let’s just hope he doesn’t start inserting needles into my tube and squeezing the life out of me… if I’m not joking around, THEN you know I’m in a lot of trouble. So I’m fine… dang, that name thing is really working out. 🙂

            As for you, when you have ET, do you still make logic statements against them? Even say them aloud if you can, as research does show that helps. The same thing works with anxious thoughts — calmly telling yourself (aloud) that you’ll be okay/this is how you will handle “X,” if it happens, etc.

            Totally off track/random…

            Is Cheese Whiz still really in that CAN? I know, who cares, but inquiring minds want to know. I’m not even in favor of whipped cream being shot from a can. Why is food shooting out at us? Silly String, yes I get it — but it’s kind of weird, with food, if you think about it.

            [Ugh, I sometimes forget HG reads these. Sorry…I’ll stop the randoms].

          16. Caroline
            My MR couldnt control me either. I didnt play the corrective devaluation game. I allowed myself to get hoovered back in and then when the texts went quiet so did I.
            The first time my car got hoovered HG told me it was MRN way of telling me he can follow me, watch me, that I belonged to him. Wonder if that is still the message……
            (HG of course told me he would hoover me again in the same manner with something on my car. Love HG to death but hate it when he is right and I have to admit it)
            The stunt from last week still has me in a set back. But I have given myself a break and said “you will get back to where you were”. He is gone in August….never thought I would say it but I cant wait…….so that will give me some reprieve time.
            And yes….my logical statements still come forth. I just wish I could get out of this funk. I m fine while I am doing things but let me sit and have too much time to think and I am screwed. You are correct tho. The N gonna do what the N gonna do whether he is a L,M or G. We are along for the ride.
            I wonder if they still sell tooth powder in the can…they could sell it along side the Cheese Whiz……..LOL
            Have a good night.

          17. Kim,
            You sound very reasoned and so much calmer… so proud of how you are being so strong. It’s really encouraging! Just what you did there, talking out all the ways you’ve made wise decisions to not get roped back in — you’re affirming yourself, your choices and your strength, and that’s what you need to do – yes!

            The only thing I disagree with is that we are “along for the ride.” I truly know how you mean it, but sometimes our mind does reveal something key, by how we say it. So I say we are NOT along for the ride anymore — we got out of their car and slammed the door shut. We don’t want to get back in that car, because it’s a dangerous ride… what they are doing now, after we got out, is what is left to contend with… okay, they may be driving around at times looking for us (that’s not creepy), but it will matter less and less what they are doing, in time. Hmm, and here is where something from my past just linked back up in how *I* just described that to you; so again, when do we stop trying to help ourselves? Never. That’s good. It’s healthy. We always want to help others, but we also never want to neglect ourselves — our feelings and needs are important too.

            I love your honesty about your ET, and you don’t crumble talking about it. That shows strength too — you’re not pretending, and you can give yourself an honest look. Sweeping true things away doesn’t change anything, and you’re not doing that.

            My weekend will be broken up, but I’ll be checking on here (if HG has it up and running)… come on if you need some diversion, as the extra weekend time may be harder right now. Keeping busy is good. Being in a funk is not necessarily bad either… sometimes we have to be, to deal with the reality, before we feel lighter again. It’s a process.

            However, a funk can also be broken up with laughter, so maybe the Comedy Club calls ya!:-)

          18. Caroline…LOLLOLOLOL SHIT….didnt mean to hit enter…..LOL I am off to go out tonight for a birthday. Maybe I will take all my junk mail out of my recycle bin tonight and…………..

  2. I thought this was a new article as I hadn’t seen it before. I am pretty sure I squeeze into 8 of the category you list HG. I don’t think I can see any others you missed, very thorough indeed!

  3. You forgot the “self righteous HG fangirl”. Not all HG fangirls are self righteous, but the subset who are make me want to start a keyboard war

      1. I don’t want to call out names publicly but I’ll private message you the self righteous HG fangirl I dislike if you are interested.

        I don’t get notified of responses to my comments via email anymore. Do you have control of that? Thanks

        1. Bluecitynyc, WordPress works like narcs, out of entitlement and without being accountable for anything. Sometimes I receive the notifications, sometimes I don’t, on glorious days like today I can “like” people’s comments, some other days it doesn’t let me, and only recently I’ve started to see who specifically likes my comments.

          1. I don’t know if anyone here would remember, but I got extremely frustrated at the beginning because I didn’t know how to reply to the one person I wanted to and my comments were posted wherever, it created this non-sequitur monologue of myself talking to no one, until NA told me to enter the name of the addressee at the top of my comment. Now that I think about it, people probably thought I was crazy.

        2. Bluecity

          What significance is there to HG knowing who you like and don’t like on a blog? Do you expect there would be some change made by you divulging this?

    1. Ha ha WR.

      I wondered if you were the same WR(I think that was her name) she appeared and disappeared a few months ago?

      1. I am the same WendyRhoades! And bluecityck. Idk how my name got switched there. I stand by my Hg fangirl comment! They’re like, “IF YOU TURN TO PAGE 47 of HG’s 5th BOOK HE CLEARLY STATES!!!”

          1. If they are so familiar with the work they could just explain it in their own words. A lot of it seems like they’re just vying for your approval HARD. (I’m not talking about K. She is sweet)

          2. Why explain it in their own words? Makes far more sense to refer someone to the correct information so there is nothing lost in translation.

          3. WendyRhoades

            If the original text is written in a way that cannot be improved upon, why would anyone try to improve upon it?

            If a person wants to convey meaning using the original text, then they accurately repeat that text and give the reference for it.

            This is how we show supporting evidence.
            This is how we build our case, and develop our ideas.
            This is how we test theories.

            These are the rules laid down for literary and scientific research, and scholarship. This is what intelligent people do.

            That’s why you find us doing that here.

            You’re welcome to join in.

  4. Caroline my teacher, The comedy club was excellent. Mush needed relief. The margarita and rum & coke helped also!! Now on to my homework assignment.
    1) When you’ve written out the negative thoughts you’ve had… did it surprise you what they were or how many you had — or maybe that you didn’t have that many? Now did it hit you?
    I really did not have any negative thoughts as I never did nor do I now blame him for ensnaring me. He can not help it. The negative would have been feelings……hurt, betrayal, disbelief. a void in my world. My negatives were physical feelings not really thoughts.
    2) Have you thought about if there is any person or time in your life that has made you feel incredibly insecure — just does anything come to mind — in the same way you have felt less-than when you’re out of contact with the narcissist? Or when he’s devalued you?
    Never and no one. I was still in the golden period when I got a corrective devaluation and did not adhere to it. Hence a was “deleted”. This was a period of my life that I can say I am not proud of. I was like a caged animal. Stalking him in person and on line. Finding out everything I could. The longing. the emptiness. The not understanding. “all you had to do was say you were sorry Kim and he would have stayed” I would tell myself. But then after I allowed myself to be hoovered back in, I would tell myself that I did not say I was sorry because I wasn’t I had caught him in a lie and when I called him on it in a round about why, I was the bad guy. I cant say that he ever devalued me that I noticed. It always kinda surprised/confused me that I seemed to get more “attention” as a DLS then I did in the golden period. In the golden period there was no weekend contact at all. As a DLS I was contacted at all times…..weekends included. Ideas? Thoughts why that was?
    3) What is the one word (or two) you would use to describe how the narcissist made you feel during the Golden period that was such an overwhelmingly good feeling for you?
    Safe, valued, like I was the only one
    4) How strong do you think you are? Put a percentage on it.
    35%. I am not sure I could fight off a hoover and to be perfectly honest that I want to at this point. I do not look at his social media. But I am no where near ready to delete our texts, his phone number or really any other tangible triggers. I am proud that I have not reached out to him but that is still that part of me that says “please show me that I was worth something to you even if it was just fuel”.
    5) How honest/real do you think you are… with other people? Not the narcissist… just people in general? Again, put a percentage on it.
    100%. I, except for my narc, will tell people EXACTLY what and how I think of them or feel about them. I have never had an issue doing that. Love ya, tolerate ya or hate ya, you always know where you stand with me. People will comment to me that they appreciate it even tho sometimes it hurts. The friends I have that really and truly are my friends have been around for a long time and know me. I hide a lot from people I don’t know and that was even before my narc.
    With my narc,,,,,,,,,,After I got back in I would open up about my emotions. He told me once in the golden period that if he did emotions our conversation from the night before would have been different. When I asked how, he just said, emotions. As time went on, he would sit back as I talked about how I felt about something and I would thank him for allowing me to express them as I knew he did not do emotions. (at that point in time I knew why he did not do emotions)

    I could go on and on. So I will sign off of my assignment for now. Love and smooches,
    Kim

    1. Kim,
      Hey, doll! I’m so happy for your time out with friends! I encourage you to do that as much as you possibly can during this time~it will really help boost you.:-)

      Your answers help a lot, as I’m trying to assist you in reinforcing what you need to do for yourself to gain even more inner strength, with this next list… it’s like with daily habits — we sometimes need to retrain what it is we’re telling ourselves, when it’s not encouraging/helping us… you can easily do that, with practice. It may really help, in time.

      I wanted to clarify one thing, and re-ask it… with the first question, what I meant was with the “I’m not enough” list you did… or when you’ve had feelings about yourself, that you’re not enough/beating up on yourself or being critical of yourself — *not* negative feelings about him.

      So, whenever you get a chance to answer that one, your assignment is complete on it! 😉 Then I’ll give the second list, which should help encourage you.

      Holy cow, regarding that other thread, lol! That person really has unraveled…What’s kind of funny is that I really waited and reflected before making that pointed reply, but I felt like, “No, I really feel convicted to say this — it won’t be that big of a thing — I’m doing it.” (Ha!)

      So now I’m running off to work, and I’ve got oodles of comments that I couldn’t even get to reading that are pinging from that thread… oops, maybe I shouldn’t have said anything to begin with, lol …BUT I feel confident the empaths & HG can aptly handle whatever is there…and I’m not going to feel guilty about it — as THAT was always my Achilles Heel with staying too long with the Greater (guilt)… so maybe I’m still learning too!;-)

      You stay strong, girl! No messing with social media, eh?

      Hugs,
      Caroline

      1. Caroline – My – Teacher.

        I wanted to clarify one thing, and re-ask it… with the first question, what I meant was with the “I’m not enough” list you did… or when you’ve had feelings about yourself, that you’re not enough/beating up on yourself or being critical of yourself — *not* negative feelings about him.

        OOOHHHHH. OK. I think the only time I really had thoughts of being not enough were:
        1.Way back when I thought I was not good enough to be IPPS.
        2.For a long time after being hoovered back in, I thought I was an IPSS. When HG told me thru a consult that I was a DLS. That crushed me. At first my heart broke and then I thought…OH NO. I will not stand for that. And then as the ET took over again it was…….I am not good enough to even be a IPSS.
        3. And now that it has been 6 weeks I am experiencing I am not good enough to be hoovered. Even tho my LT says STOP IT!!!!

        I hope this finishes my first assignment. I am ready (at times more so then others) to move on. Missing him a lot today.

        1. Kim,
          I have not forgotten you, hon… because of your answers, I’m rethinking the most motivating way for you to dwell (on certain thoughts/with what you actively will write down, to become a habit of thinking).

          But it’s good – because I was going to go one way, but I need to go with what makes you tick as your special self, not what I was anticipating you would need. It only threw a bit of a wrench in it (my Plan A), because I wanted this to be solely focused on you, not him… but it’s totally doable — I’m just giving it a bit more time to percolate in my mind, until I feel right about it. I may even give you a few options, for you to decide. 🙂

          Hang tough! You’re doing this thing! Stay off social media & stay connected with friends too.:-)
          XO!
          Be back soon,
          Caroline

        2. Miss Kim,

          I think I’ll first just chat with you a bit about a few things that “pinged” for me, in what you have shared. Thank you so much, for being so honest: that is really the only way to continue to make progress & kick your narc addiction, and you really are so brave about sharing… you truly are. XO.

          I do understand what you are feeling/your perspective, in how you’re hurting, in regard to wanting to know you matter to the narcissist… but I really want to help you see that no matter what role the narcissist “assigns” people, it sucks…because all of it is based on how the narcissist has set up getting their needs met… nobody is “special” because to BE special to anyone, a person must have empathy toward the other one — be deeply connected to understand another person as a unique individual. So a narcissist is only looking to fill their void, in many varied ways — not reflecting upon another human as an individual…so you’re kind of chasing a position of “value” that doesn’t truly exist. I am stuck in a permanent “Candidate IPPS” position with the Greater (not as good as it sounds), where he thinks I alone can/do solve all his void…and even I know this does not make me “special” to him! (more on what I am able to share on that later).

          So… the next thing I want to do is break down the IPPS/IPSS/DLS roles more, in regard to what I just said.

          Let me know if you have any thoughts/comments on this post (will wait on you), and we’ll just take it slow & in smaller sections, back-and-forth… you just keep staying strong & towing the line!

          Oh, one small thing… let’s make this mainly about you & NPD in general, as that will help your ET… so let’s not analyze *his* behaviors, as he’s living with NPD, so with whatever he does, that’s the WHY — he has NPD. 🙂

          1. Caroline. Thanks for the reply and all the help. This morning something triggered me and the void that has been my insides for the past couple of days was filled with anxiety again. Both are very unsettling feelings. Almost unblocked with my ET saying “not gonna hoover you anyway” (yes…he is still blocked) My head is on a swivel as I am not sure I am strong enough at this point to ignore a hoover….maybe one but not persistent ones. Feel like being watched. Or maybe it is my ET wishing…………I have to be honest and say at this point in time I am still hoping for that hoover. Proof in the pudding that my ET still VERY high.
            Anyways, back to your explanation of being “special” and my thoughts on it.
            I get all that you are saying in the little bit of LT that is peeking out. Doesn’t feel good to KNOW that I really was just one of many that were and will be. ET still hopes that I will be the one that makes the break thru yet my LT says “STOP> You are the one that blocked him”. My ET and LT are in a fight for me and little by little the LT is winning. I remember things, find myself lost in them, and then pull myself out saying ‘……you and how many others”. So yes….I do get the not being special in theory. Still working on the reality of it.

            I am now ready for you to share your insight on IPPS/IPSS/DLS.

            Your enthralled student,
            Kim

          2. Nah, girl… I’m not a teacher. Just a fellow empath who understands &cares how you feel (guess that’s the definition of “empath,” so kinda redundant, lol). If anything I’ve been through helps you, I’m truly honored. To learn or help/support — is why any of us are here.

            First off, it takes strength to not unblock! YES! Good job. Do it for you. Keep remembering that is something YOU have decided, despite what someone else says/does (the narcissist)… it also takes courage to admit you want to be hoovered & that your ET is still high…BUT you’re super aware whenever your LT wins out, and you keep noting that.

            So keeping with logic, it may help to dwell on the 3 categories a bit, mainly to say to yourself, “And where is the good/worthwhile in *any* of these?”

            I’ll keep these 3 fairly short-and-sweet, so you can think how it applies to you, meaning thoughts that come to you that help to cause you to rethink your perspective.

            IPPS
            I think of this as “bird in a cage.” This is the victim who is messed with/manipulated/attempted to control them the most; and it could logically be argued, gets affected/hurt the most, over time… it depends what type of empath & what type of narcissist, but I feel like the dynamic word here is “OWN.” I can speak to how this goes in time (a little leery to do that right now, just because of my situation), but this is not a good deal, at all, if you like your peace/freedom… which can be played by the narcissist in a very insidious manner, which is just bad for anyone’s mind, heart & soul. #trapped

            IPSS
            I think of this as “the toy.” This victim is push-pulled/put up & down… paid attention to/ignored… and, again, depends on empath/narcissist, but I feel very sorry for anyone stuck in this crazy-making manner…I think of this as “WITHHOLD,” whether it is of attention, affection, etc. Human being are not made to suffer in silence with this kind of passive aggressive behavior, especially as a matter of routine. #anxiety-provoking

            DLS
            Frankly, I find it hard to even write on this one, as all I can think of is Gabrielle for this category… and if you have read her thoughts, then your heart also breaks for her, and it’s a cautionary tale… on how you do not want any part of such a dynamic.

            So… maybe think about these categories and ask yourself some hard questions on how trying to hold into a narcissistic relationship is ever going to allow you to feel safe/good/whole…and if what you get from it is truly worth it… maybe even write out the pros & cons, which can give a lot of clarity… I’m betting the “con” list would be the clear winner.

            Sorry… next time shorter, lol… but I tried to!

          3. Caroline. Just me checking in. I am still NC….9 weeks today. Feel like I have made headway but not sure. Good days are more than the bad days. Little triggers that I need to learn to live with…see a car that looks like his.
            I did hear thru the grapevine…….I really do wish people would stop telling me things that I really dont care about any longer but even after I ask them not to they think they need to…..that he was on vacation this week and will be back yesterday the 4th. OF COURSE then this created total anxiety in me yesterday the 4th. He is gone the entire month of August so that will be 31 days of peace for me. Just need to find a way for September not to trigger me.
            I am good tho.
            How are you? Sorry I came back to this long thread but I couldnt find you anywhere else. If there is a different thread that you want to use, let me know and I will check in there. I wait for your reply and after we are finished corresponding, I log off of WP cuz the site really does trigger me.
            Hugs and smoochies and margaritas
            Me.
            HI HG!!!!!

          4. Kim e
            Just wanted to say hello and we are thinking of you. Way to go on the 9 weeks! Proud of you.

          5. Did someone say margaritas?? 🙂

            Kim!!

            It’s so good to hear from you, doll~I’ve been thinking of you a lot… & just got home yesterday (traveling with work). It was really good to be away for awhile. I’m doing well! I’ve got a bit of a NC stressor upcoming though, in that I shut down the remaining avenue the G has, but it won’t be shut down indefinitely (outside my ability to do so)… so when that line is re-opened, no idea…but I’ll handle it. I now have my own “LT/No False Guilt” notebook going.

            As for you, Missy, 9 weeks today is fantastic!! (*Cue the leftover fireworks*). Also, “good days more than bad days” is significant progress! I’m so proud of you, Kim. I know it’s tough stuff… but you are getting stronger, and you are taking good care of yourself emotionally. Big hug.

            As for people updating you about the narc, ugh, really? Maybe if you let them know you’re moving on & it’s just not good for you… however, you made it through July 4th regardless, so it was another chance to be strong. The longer break you’ll have is great (August). That will help your ET even more.

            Is September a particularly triggering time for a reason, or do you mean it will be triggering because he’ll be back then?

            P.S. This thread is perfectly fine:-)

          6. Caroline. WOW. that was a quick reply. Not necessarily margaritas but just tequila in general 😀
            Yes. I meant September will be a trigger cuz he will be back.
            What I wouldn’t do right now for a hug from him 🤪🤪
            I know I am doing well but also know I am no where near where I need to be. Still in the mind set of if he hoovers I will respond. But then I think he is a mmn and won’t hoover anyways because he might get wounded again. I always wanted to ask HG what it felt like to be wounded but never did. And if I ask him now he will say you don’t need to know LOL
            I went for a walk at lunch today without headphones on. Just me and my brain. I thought about how when we were together I used to say … it’s only been 8 weeks because he of course makes it sound like his heart has been crushed before so he needs to take it slow. How ironic that as I am in the process of trying to get my broken heart back together I am using the same line.
            Where were you in your work travels? Any place good?

          7. Nope, no hugs from “The Middler” — didn’t ya hear? His eyes are oozing pus – nose is running – and he’s got this itchy, contagious rash all over his body…(Hey, I try). 😉

            You can’t blame HG for not wanting to answer the wounding question (smart guy, that Greater), as it’s likely a no-win, no matter the answer… but I’d just say that your MRN’s cowardice over being wounded is 100% good for you. *That’s* a win.

            Where I went is a really interesting place, and I’d actually love to chit-chat on it, because I’ve got some pretty cool stories about it… but I better not, as the ex-BF knows it’s one place I go on a semi-regular basis, and I’m still a little paranoid… which is probably silly, as one of the last things I can imagine is my ex perusing through another narcissist’s site, and *especially* reading all these comments… but still. Minus the British aspect, he talks in a similar fashion (patterns/word choice/attitude/brevity) as HG, and I really don’t want to play mind games with myself later on about it, in worrying that I was too specific, if he turns up & repeats something HG said (funny but true — I know myself)…

            So back to you! 🙂 I love that you’re talking to yourself the way you are…I swear that helps more than people realize. We have to learn how to be deliberate about that, and finding pockets of quiet for ourselves is the best way to pay attention to your inner voice, which can get drowned out by so much other noise/busy stuff on a daily basis.

            About September… you may want to start now with jotting a list of cool things to do that month to stay busy, preferably with friends/get-aways if you can/new hobbies or classes (fun or educational) to take, etc…

            So what type of stuff may excite you to plan? Hmm? 🙂

          8. Caroline,
            Funny thing about your Hug and oozing sores comment is I had a sinus infect the first time I was deleted at 8 weeks and this time at 8 weeks also. I asked HG and he said it is me getting run down. So strange the things our emotions do to us that we never even think about.

            When we meet in the next life, you can tell me all about your travels over margarita’s. Diet coke and vanilla rum for me this weekend.

            Trouble with September is that most of the time my triggers are during the day as we are neighbors, use the same train station and the building he works in is a stones throw away from mine. If I life my head up from my computer, I can see it out the window. It is the fact that I am still on a pivot right now. This is the MMN that hoovered me with a train parking ticket…LOL.

            I know why HG doesnt answer questions after a certain point to get our minds off the N. “What does it matter? He is a narc.” LOL “What do you care? He is a narc.” “His head spins and he speaks in tongues cus he is a narc!” (Can you tell I have had consults with HG)
            But damn it. I am an empath and want to know.

            Just going to take it a day at a time and not beat myself up if I go forward 3 and back 5. I will get there.
            And if I falter and reply to a hoover, I will start over. Says HG in the background….”that is your ET talking”!!!
            I have been honest and am not sure right at this moment that if his balls grew and he did hoover me that I would resist. That is not only my ET talking but my ego as well.

            Thanks Hon.

          9. Oh MY, Kim…I knew about the train schedule, but I had no idea you live so very close to him, let alone that you can see the building he works in all the time… well, shoot! You’re doing even more amazing than I thought, just standing your ground. Kudos!

            But that’s a heck of a lot of reminders… can you move? Better yet, can HE move?! (kidding/not kidding).

            I do understand your curiosity to know aspects about him… but *not* knowing is where the peace is. The more you know (as you know!), the more you would tend to analyze/over-analyze…and you’d just be taking up more time thinking of him, which would work against you. So in this case, ignorance really is bliss. Plus, knowing a bunch of stuff about a narcissist is not the same as knowing stuff about a “normal” or empath…because it’s not stable knowledge, meaning they change how they are, to suit their need for fuel… so you are wanting info on a ghostly/fake type of situation (if how I just explained that makes no sense, I’ll try to redo it — it sounded better in my head).

            It’s good that you’re being honest with where you’re at, regarding a Hoover… so if he would borrow a set of balls (from a Greater, lol) and Hoover you, I ask you to consider this: How wonderful would it feel to reclaim even *more* of your sense of self-love/dignity by denying him the Hoover?

            Really, HOW great would that feel? You would not be letting yourself down… and would feel even more secure. Plus, you add to HG’s success rate, and even though he’s a narcissist, he *is* doing something positive to educate others on NPD + helping many get out of abusive relationships.

            So… maybe a few things to think about? 🙂

            Also, sorry to do the list thing again… but if you write a list on “Pro/Con on Responding to a Hoover”… all I want to know is just how long is the pro side… and how long is the con side? 🙂

            AND what would you tell “Poor Little Caroline Empath,” about HER responding to a Hoover, out of guilt? (I know, *not* fair… but I use what I gots!);-)

          10. Caroline
            Sorry for the delay in the reply. These last couple of days have been really rough. I have gone thru blocking and unblocking more than I care to acknowledge.Emotions all over the place. Being stressed but not realizing it until for some reason I let my shoulders down and then notice I have been totally stressed.
            Maybe this is a part of my process. I actually thought yesterday that I don’t want him to hoover because this will just take me back to the beginning and I don’t want to have to go thru this awful process again. That is why I said that at this point in time I think the only reason I want to be hoovered is my ego.Tired of being dead on the inside most of the time.
            Remembering is a 2 sided blade also. I think about things that he did or said differently now than I did before. I realize they were all BS to control me. I guess this also is part of the process. remembering so your brain can realize it was BS. SO LT on the rise………ET still there but is slowly over time shrinking. Time will heal me…..just hope I am close to the person I used to be……..
            Have to get ready to go work out.
            Have a good weekend. TTYL

          11. Caroline……LIGHT BULB MOMENT…….standing in the kitchen cutting corn off the cob and it hits me. I LEFT HIM….he did not leave me. Why are you playing like you were the dumpee Kim…you were the DUMPER!!!! I have been looking a this backwards maybe because of my conditioning. I have to remember that he sees me as a bad person…painted black (until I am white again…and then black..and then white)I let him down
            But no….in my reality…I did what I knew had to be done. My new tatoo will say…….I WAS THE DUMPER>>>>>>>NOT THE DUMPEE!!!!!
            This is another reason my no balls MRN will not hoover me. I left him. Why should he waste time on a DLSSS when we are a dime a dozen.
            Not sure how long this feeling will last but right now I am running with it. Gotta keep the momentum going with it

            Perfect example of my ET being all over the place. The difference between this reply to you and the one from earlier this morning.

            I love corn on the cob

          12. Kim,
            I returned not long ago from a local produce market, and I kid you not — among other things, I got some corn! I’m not sure even I would believe that, as I had to read your corn post 3 times, just to be sure you wrote “CORN”! Too funny.

            Yes, you were the SO the dumper, *not* the dumpee!… And it’s YOU who is coming up with the truth of the matter, in several areas… it’s that inner voice you can really trust to sort it out/steer you/empower you. It’s all there inside you — you just have to tap into it more, and talking it out with others helps that at times too. 🙂

            So your ET may be up & down, but you really are making progress, Kim…I can tell, and I hope you can too. You’re digging in deeper, to get at what you need to, and that’s of great benefit (not just with the narc situation — but in life, in general).

            I think we *both* need a little work on one thing: “letting the narc down” thoughts. However, you probably just meant it in a logical way as to how the narc thinks, whereas I mean it more in a “fighting my guilt at letting him down” way. Yep, that’s still a problem area for me.

            So anyway, for YOU/your situation, I see it not at all as letting the narc down…I see it as you doing the right thing. For me, I have a bunch of reasons why I see it differently on my end, so I’ve got more work to do.

            Pretty much, “my” G proposes similar to what HG is doing with SM, as he feels we have the “right dynamic”…and that is the last time I will even mention this, as I do not want to (nor have) read about HG/SM except when HG first brought it up on the blog — I stay far away from that info, & I really do not want to even discuss it. But the ET I fight once in awhile is: “I know all about this, and I was with the G for 3 years, so I am probably the only one who can keep the G at bay — it’s doable to help him/make life easier for others in his life.”

            Wrong!

            That would be a responsibility… and never all he wants/in the way he wants (non-intimate)… and it is just not my job! I couldn’t control how far he would take things either. There are a lot of other pieces of info to this, but that sums up my own ET struggle. Logic does win out, but I still get those thoughts.

            Ok. That’s for me to work on, and I am. But more importantly…

            I’m definitely having corn with dinner tonight! LOL

          13. Hi Kim E, I love fresh corn on the cob too. Have you tried street corn? I think you will like that variation. For the new tattoo, how about, “My Choice,” because it was, it is, and always will be, your life, your choice. Seems to me, you chose wisely!

          14. Hi FYC. Never had street corn. If I ever see it I am going to try it
            I love that idea for the tat. Thank you

          15. Kim E, you are very welcome. I feel for what you are going through and I think Caroline made great points. I still feel guilty about low contact with familial Ns when a pity play is used, but anytime I used to relent in the past, the result was always the same. Ns do not change no matter how much we love or give. They never appreciate you for you, only what you can do for them. If you want to try street corn at home, google simplyrecipies street corn.

  5. Í think I’m a weaponising empath.
    I also get a bit angry.
    I am detecting several narcs in both my private and professional life and I feel like I’m trapped.
    This knowledge is good but sometimes I feel tired and beaten in a psychological way.
    I tend to react with passion when I see that things are unfair and all it does is get me into trouble. others. I know simply moan about it and won’t take a stand.
    Like a chess player I seem to read when a narc is going to do something to me but I’m powerless nonetheless.

    Kiki

  6. Dear HG

    I am almost certain I am dealing with a workplace narc.
    I will have to make a consult with you on this when I can as I don’t know where to turn anymore.
    This is not the narc that brought me here but it is seriously affecting me .

    Kiki

  7. Hmmm if I am honest I would say I am or have been almost all of them. I keep coming back, well bc HG keeps popping up in my inbox. Unlike any other Narc in my past ,I harbor no ill will towards HG, rather even though I had little interaction with HG he helped me at a time when it was needed, so overall I find him to be good reminder.
    I am not a fool. I know when a narc is good they are great ,and I have no doubt that is where HG falls for all of us. This is bc he is not really a part of our lives. He has found a way to get fuel from us and be helpful without hurting us. It is an indictator of his intelligence. But at the same time I know too well what he is. As my grandmother said I will take the good and protect myself from the bad. I appreciate HG, but from a distance.
    Times are changing and more and more people are becoming aware of Narcs, and I am very relieved about this. I do find reading some of the comments hard bc it is like watching a slow motion car crash. You want to yell at the people to stop, but we all have been there so it isn’t fair to judge. I just don’t read the comments very often bc it makes me too sad to see people hurting and worse doing things or thinking in ways that will cause more harm to themselves. I am not saying this to be judgmental, bc I am not. I know exactly how they feel and it is just crappy bc you can’t stop someone from feeling a way you have learned that just leads to heart ache.
    I see people on here trying to get inside HG’s head. I don’t think that is a good idea. I don’t want to know what is going on in there. I don’t need it. I don’t need to understand whats in his past that lead him here. It really is none of my business. I listen to what he has to say and if it makes sense I listen, and if it doesn’t I will listen to myself. Risky I know. But so far it has done me well. I hope that everyone who comes here, who has lost faith in their own judgement, once again learns to trust themselves, bc at the end of the day we are the only people who really know what our guts are telling us and again as my grandmother told me “Your gut never lies.” Have a good night you all. And never forget to know your worth!

    1. Welcome back, Sandy!
      That’s great that you have found the ability to trust yourself! That knowing your worth is so important and something that is hard to do. I look forward to being where you are, thank you for sharing!

  8. The Confirmer
    The Reinforcer

    I may have started out as one of The Confused and as The Answer Seeker, but I keep coming back again and again for confirmation and for reinforcement.

    I return here often to confirm what my intuition knew all along, the stuff my emotional self tried to ignore (and sometimes still tries to ignore).

    I also revisit to reinforce what I have learned from HG so far, especially in the event my emotional self tries to rule my actions.

    Why, just tonight, I saw narcx’s car in front of a restaurant we frequented often, a restaurant that I want to go to but avoid for fear I might run into him. As I drove by and noticed his license plate number, I had many thoughts in my head: He doesn’t own that restaurant! I can eat there, too–whenever I want! Should I go in to drink and dine and “just so happen” to run into him? Should I wait outside in an inconspicuous spot to see if he exits with a lady?

    Due to my continual reading and reinforcement of HG’s material, HG was in my head saying “true No Contact involves NO CONTACT!” And I proceeded to resist acting on my emotions and headed home. I really said “logical mind, logical mind” to myself as I stopped into the grocery store. And though I left the grocery store thinking, “Oh, just take a quick drive by again,” HG’s everpresence was right there with me, telling me to go home.

    I am home safe now, unseen and unheard from by the narcx.

    1. Lisk……forgive me for saying this but I am “mirroring” you for the same reasons. HG’s constant lessons and listening to others on the board with success stories.
      I am off work tomorrow and have some errands to run. I thought well I might just drive past the train station and have a look at his car (Why? I cant tell you) And then my brain said…..”it doesn’t concern you any more. It will just hurt you. Stop”. I yell STOP to myself a lot during the day when the thoughts take over.
      But congrats to us both for getting to where we are.
      Cheers to us and hugs to all that have helped…..even the hug hater HG!!!!

        1. I just looked at MRN’s kids’ social media. He was in two of the pics. I have seen both before and studied them intently. This time, I had absolutely no reaction and quickly lost interest. I think he could be standing in my doorway and I would mistake him for the Hermes delivery chap. Thanks, HG.

        1. Caroline….what can I say. Your hug and kiss made me cry. You have been so kind to me. Never judgmental…always pushing me forward very gently but telling me to do it in my time.
          I feel like I want to say I know it will be so easy to fall back into but as I have said I tell myself STOP. I am still not out of the woods as ET is still very high. Head still on a pivot whenever outside of my office as this is the most “logical” (haha) please for me to be hoovered. But then think there isn’t a fucking thing you can do about it Kim. If it happens……here comes HG out of my mouth…IGNORE IT.
          Love ya forever CIP……hugs kisses and admiration.

          1. Kim,
            Awwww…thank you so much, sweetheart. It’s a total privilege to be here for you.

            Always, always — for you: “To thine own self be true…” Of course, it was Shakespeare that wrote that. But I can say it to great purpose too, William Shakespeare!

            P.S. May the “The Ghost of Shakespeare” not visit me tonight. That would be a little daunting – plus I’m already at a semi-danger level as is, lol.

          2. Caroline……Thanks for the kind words. But the irony of it is that they TRIGGERED me as that is my N’s name. My eyes immediately went there and the heart sped up….LOL…..Guess I am not as far along as I thought.
            How long before it is safe for me to unblock him? I figure 6 months is good. Thoughts Caroline?

            (Just Kidding HG)

          3. Oh nooooo! I’m sorry — I shall never utter that dastardly name again! Then again, you saw it, so let’s just call it one more step toward desensitization. 😉 I don’t think it’s *too* much of a reflection on how far along you are, in that I’d startle if I saw my ex’s name (that I created/called him) on here… I really would.

            #6MonthsIsNeverEnough! 😀

          4. Caroline whatever you are calling yourself today,
            I must go away from the site again. Too many things that bring him back to me. But I like any good n shall return ….. keep the home fires burning

          5. Kim,
            I understand. You know where to come back whenever you need support/laughs/encouragement… stay strong, honey! Be kind to yourself. You’re wonderful… never lose sight of how special & loveable you are. Protect your heart from harm/pain, as best you can. XO.
            Much Love,
            Caroline
            P.S. I know I always seem 100% sweetness & light, but I’m also a Viking woman (SE too), so I can kick a** for ya if necessary! (non-violently, except a water hose – I’m too much of a lady to get physical — I mean, I won’t even spell out a**)…LOL…hot mess Caroline. 😉

          6. Caroline, Well here I am back. I cant stand to read yet I cant stay away.
            I think it is all part of my denial that it really all happened. I read and feel like it all happened to another person. Like I am just reading about other peoples experiences.
            It has been 1 month today and I feel like I have not really made any steps. I know I have but shit…this is way harder then I thought. Any Caroline insight to push me forward. I have NO INTENTIONS of undoing my NC yet feel like I am at a complete stand still in my life. Is this normal….????
            Sorry to lay this on you. Need a push. and Honesty which I know I will get from you.

          7. Kim,

            I’m happy to be here for you, sweetie!

            It *is* normal, Miss Empathic. 😉 One month in is still a very tender time… set your sights on 3 months — and will yourself toward that goal. At 3 months, your feelings will not be what they are now, and your ET will be much decreased. There is relief coming! I know it’s a cliché, but it’s one that’s true: time mends/strengthens us… it takes time. It IS hard! You are doing something hard — but you ARE doing it & quite capable of keeping it up, for something better. Does it feel great? No… it’s painful. It sucks. I got so emotionally wrought that I actually threw up at times, those first 3 months. But this pain is what needs to come out & then heal, Kim. You are doing that for yourself. That’s impressive enough!

            Speaking of “enough”…

            I’m very proud of you, but I sense your discouragement in yourself… maybe you need to work on being less hard on yourself, yes? Where are those messages coming from? Yes, the narc has insidiously undermined your confidence, but you have the full ability to anchor yourself, and you may be taking over for the narc, in a subtle way, in how you’re talking to yourself…

            Are you talking kindly to yourself? Are you catching all that is good in/about you and reminding yourself of that? Of how far you’ve come? Or are you being a perfectionist & pretty stingy in affection toward yourself? Maybe give that aspect some thought.

            Also, the word “enough.” Homework assignment for you (“You b****, Caroline!” lol):

            The word/sentiment of “ENOUGH”…Starting tomorrow morning & running through next Tuesday, write down every thought that you catch you’re having where you’re telling yourself what you are/what you are doing is *not* enough… or blatant criticism of yourself. Write them down under the title: “WAYS I SAY I AM NOT GOOD ENOUGH.”

            I love you, Miss Kim — despite giving you homework! (There will be a follow-up week-long homework assignment after this one, not gonna lie!) 😀

          8. Caroline. One of my biggest fears is that I will see him and blow all that I have worked for. He works by me and basically knows my routine even tho I have changed it up. Shit. I fucking hate this😩😩😩😩

          9. Caroline_Is_assigning_Homework
            I have been doing my assignment little by little. I tell my self I was not enough for him but I am for me. It is he who is not enough for me.

            Bad couple of days. Yesterday the ET reared it’s ugly head bad. Really bad. Couldn’t find my LT anywhere. Today I unblocked for about 10 minutes. I did not get the relief I used to when I unblocked. I thought “OK now if he tries to hoover me thru text I will be in control again”. I then blocked him again saying “he is a mid-range. He wont have the balls to text me after I “escaped” without feeling out the situation for fear of wounding”. That was complete backwards thinking but it worked.

            Not sure what the trigger was this time. Maybe just time…..I hate this. I cant even get upset enough to cry. Feel like a caged animal with no attention span. Days I dont think of him at all. Other days I do but not like yesterday and today. This is a set back.

            When I make it thru this,………………….

            Back to a minute at a time. Still proud of myself for making it this far.

            Signed,
            A very confused, bewildered yet proud empath.

          10. Kim,
            Go you! You should be *very* proud! 🙂 I’ll be able to reply back more later tonight, but 3 quick things right now:

            You: “I was not enough for him, but I am for me.” (<<LT — and TRUTH, which brings freedom — nicely done!)

            You: "Days, I don't think of him at all." (<<This is real progress, Kim — be encouraged by this) 🙂

            Now…

            For when you have those weak moments you want to contact him/mess with social media… think of the narcissist as a gumball machine — filled with a *seemingly* beautiful array of colors of sweet, yummy gumball flavors…

            BUT, in reality, once you turn the narcissist's gumball lever (contact him/direct or indirect), you have zero control over what gumball you get…

            You may get a yummy flavor (fake sweetness) — or you may get a burning-your-tongue-off "hot sauce" gumball — a "dirt"-flavored gumball — or a wheeze-inducing "pepper" gumball.

            You can't control what he doles out — or doesn't. There's no rhyme or reason to what you get either.

            Do you want to bite into a pepper gumball? Do you want that bitter taste back in your mouth? Tears in your eyes? Hours and hours (or days and days) of getting back to what you had before you turned that deceptive lever? Do you want to put a coin (investment) in — and get nothing/be robbed?

            OR will you be your own gumball dispenser… and give yourself 100% control of assured sweetness?

            Maybe something to think about. 😉

            Big hug,
            Caroline

          11. Caroline. Hi. Been on a crying jag. Not sure why. Tears just start rolling. So drained. Took off work Thursday and slept most of the day Thought would be better at the 6 week mark but the roller coaster just continues Is this normal? Feel like 1 step forward 4 steps back
            Still NC. Must just be withdrawal. Doing what I have to…..but nothing extra. Going to comedy club tonight for girlfriends birthday. Looking forward
            How are you doing with your NC? Any idea how ex N is fairing in therapy?
            Hugs and smooches 🤪🤪🤪

          12. Kim,
            Aww, I’m so sorry, but…

            Perfect timing for the second part of the assignment, doll… you’re doing great — hang tough! I’m away for the day, but I will post back later tonight on the list’s second part, which is about boosting yourself.

            Rest assured, all your feelings are totally normal for GOSO with a narcissist. It’s often not a linear process, but remember: that’s because emotions go deep/are complex (especially with empaths), and it takes time to move through and also curb the ET… you are being really strong! Well done. XO.

            Going to a comedy club with girlfriends tonight is WONDERFUL! I can’t even think up a better thing for you to do. Have fun, let go, & laugh all you can.:-)
            Much Love,
            Caroline

          13. Kim,
            (Sorry to everyone on this thread for how long this will be — I had to get a few important things out that I thought were important),

            Hi, hon…

            Hopefully while I type this, you’re getting ready for your fun time out with girlfriends — and feeling excited about it.:-)

            So before I go to the second part of that list for you to work on, I want to first ask you a few questions (listed way below — but first-things-first)…

            The reason I’ve even asked you to do this list thing is because I truly believe a big key to breaking free from narcissists (or any abusers) is self-awareness, and then the clarity that leads to truths that make a difference… but, for me, it’s still not enough, most times, to only have head knowledge…

            For me, it’s head + heart, to affect real change in this arena… you have to dig much deeper for life-altering epiphanies that help to solve your own inner struggles/riddles as to your own weak/hurting points — to do that, you need to be brutally honest with yourself about your own makeup, insecurities and needs, which I think is partly influenced by inborn nature, & (of course) by our unique experiences — good or bad/uplifting or painful. For me, this is all a journey about awareness + honesty + self-love… and I’ve kind of come full-circle on it. My heart played a big role in my decisions, but my head also had a say!…

            I risked exposure to a Greater (a second time, I mean) who is stuck on me/is selfish in what he wants of me. I didn’t expose myself to him again to “one up” him, nor for any glory to trick him, as I’m just not motivated that way. It was only to help, of I could. My journey to peace, however flawed, is mine, and I have 100% freedom to decide it, which I did. I have no regrets, nor will I ever…

            I feel empathy toward the narcissist I was intimately involved with for 3 years, & though I was motivated to do something to try to help him…he’s a danger to me. I cannot control what he will do. Still, you have to be real with yourself, and I very much am… despite the danger, I deliberately decided it was worth it, to see that the narcissist has a chance (however small) to get to the root of his problems & heal/change what he can — *not* to be back with me, though that may very well be his impetus — but strictly for him.

            I think I’ve said on here somewhere that I’m in “semi-danger.” That’s ridiculous! You’re either in danger or you’re not! I’m in regular danger (lol), every single day. Period. No matter how “gallant” and gentle the narcissist has seemed with me, I cannot control him. Who knows his plans? He’s a narcissist, and a super smart and powerful one at that! I never say stuff like this on here… but I just want it to be very clear (once) that HG would never advocate for what I did (nor did he, in emails I have had with him), as it’s not a safe thing to do — no matter what kind of empath you are, or what you know…

            I said this for HG, more than anyone (my own legal department, lol)…

            Back to you, Kim~and what’s important going on, on your journey now…I am beyond proud of you for staying strong AND being okay with not being “perfect” about it. Screw perfect!!!!! It’s not real — and it’s not a standard to even have. I love your messy, courageous, anxiety-ridden, tear-stained, insightful journey. Good for you!

            My questions:
            1) When you’ve written out the negative thoughts you’ve had… did it surprise you what they were or how many you had — or maybe that you didn’t have that many? Now did it hit you?
            2) Have you thought about if there is any person or time in your life that has made you feel incredibly insecure — just does anything come to mind — in the same way you have felt less-than when you’re out of contact with the narcissist? Or when he’s devalued you?
            3) What is the one word (or two) you would use to describe how the narcissist made you feel during the Golden period that was such an overwhelmingly good feeling for you?
            4) How strong do you think you are? Put a percentage on it.
            5) How honest/real do you think you are… with other people? Not the narcissist… just people in general? Again, put a percentage on it.

            I’m headed someplace with this, with you… one little step at a time… just like you are recovering from abuse — one moment at a time.

            Always Much Love,
            Caroline

          14. Kim e – the other night I was talking to a friend about her ex, my ex (narc) and her friend’s ex. They all had the same name. It was funny. Give it a year and it will be funny for you too!

        2. Love the name switch, Caroline! I agree, and join you in saying well done, Lisk and Kim! Big hugs & happy for you😘

          1. Thank ya kindly, FYC~there’s great support for them here. (<imagine a smiley face – none of mine show up)

        1. NA. Thanks. You are one that has pushed me forward. For that I thank you. Keep making others look at things from a different prospective. We get stuck in our mind and are sure that this is the way it is and will be. Until you ask us to look at it differently and then the light bulb goes on.

      1. Excellent, Kim e!

        Thank you for sharing this because:

        1) it helps to know that I am not the only one who thinks and struggles with these silly yet self-destructive “drive-by” emotional thoughts;

        2) your one seemingly small success motivates me and helps reinforce my strength and will to succeed.

      2. Kim (I tried to send this yesterday at lunch, but I think it got “stuck,” so resending… please disregard, HG, if this is the second one)…

        Nah, girl… I’m not a teacher. Just a fellow empath who understands &cares how you feel (guess that’s the definition of “empath,” so kinda redundant, lol). If anything I’ve been through helps you, I’m truly honored. To learn or help/support — is why any of us are here.

        First off, it takes strength to not unblock! YES! Good job. Do it for you. Keep remembering that is something YOU have decided, despite what someone else says/does (the narcissist)… it also takes courage to admit you want to be hoovered & that your ET is still high…BUT you’re super aware whenever your LT wins out, and you keep noting that.

        So keeping with logic, it may help to dwell on the 3 categories a bit, mainly to say to yourself, “And where is the good/worthwhile in *any* of these?”

        I’ll keep these 3 fairly short-and-sweet, so you can think how it applies to you, meaning thoughts that come to you that help to cause you to rethink your perspective.

        IPPS
        I think of this as “bird in a cage.” This is the victim who is messed with/manipulated/attempted to control them the most; and it could logically be argued, gets affected/hurt the most, over time… it depends what type of empath & what type of narcissist, but I feel like the dynamic word here is “OWN.” I can speak to how this goes in time (a little leery to do that right now, just because of my situation), but this is not a good deal, at all, if you like your peace/freedom… which can be played by the narcissist in a very insidious manner, which is just bad for anyone’s mind, heart & soul. #trapped

        IPSS
        I think of this as “the toy.” This victim is push-pulled/put up & down… paid attention to/ignored… and, again, depends on empath/narcissist, but I feel very sorry for anyone stuck in this crazy-making manner…I think of this as “WITHHOLD,” whether it is of attention, affection, etc. Human being are not made to suffer in silence with this kind of passive aggressive behavior, especially as a matter of routine. #anxiety-provoking

        DLS
        Frankly, I find it hard to even write on this one, as all I can think of is Gabrielle for this category… and if you have read her thoughts, then your heart also breaks for her, and it’s a cautionary tale… on how you do not want any part of such a dynamic.

        So… maybe take a little time to think about these categories and ask yourself some hard questions on how trying to hold into a narcissistic relationship is ever going to allow you to feel safe/good/whole…and if what you get from it is truly worth it… maybe even write out the pros & cons, which can give a lot of clarity… I’m betting the “con” list would be the clear winner.

        Sorry… next time shorter, lol… but I tried!

        1. Caroline,
          Don’t know if I ever told you but Caroline was the name of the grandmother that raised me. It and you hold a special place in my heart.

          Now onto the other shit……LOL

          I realize that none of the “status'” are a bargain. The only pro I can think of is looking at him……what a site to behold!!!! All the rest is cons.
          When I start falling back in I pull me back out by saying “but he will never WANT to hold your hand, put his arm around you, pleasure you for you”. If any of these things are ever done it will be in the long run for him only as fuel…good while he has his arm around me…bad when he withdraws it.
          I tell myself, i want someone that wants JUST me, that will support me, love me, make me laugh, hold my hand, put his arm around me, pleasure me all because he wants to…not to get something out of it.

          I get the whole shit ass scenario’s. In the beginning when I found the board I would read stuff and gasp. WHAT!!!!!! was usually the word that came out of my mouth. Or of course good old WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!
          Now nothing surprises me.

          I get it…..now to just get my ET in check. There are days where he is always there in the back of my brain but I am fine. I realize he might be there for some time but I can function.
          There are other days where out of the blue I am triggered and the whole day is anxiety ridden. These days are fewer than before but not gone.

          Any other words of wisdom or ideas for less triggers would be appreciated. I really on some days dont know what the trigger is.

          Have a great weekend. I plan on it.

          (you too HG as you moderate this)

          1. Kim,
            Aww, about your Grandma Caroline! Love that!

            Those are really insightful thoughts you wrote, about wanting a man who just wants you… not what he can get… and how bad it feels when his arm is around you – then withdrawn. You coming to these conclusions will help, when your ET brings up the dreamy hunk side of the equation! It’s also the difference between a shallow, fairytale love & that real, unconditional love, where you can count on someone & you feel safe/secure. None of us are fabulous 24/7…we have weaknesses/have messy, bad things happen in life where we need real support… and that’s not what a narcissist is about. Sure, they may fake it at times, but what else are they doing to be disloyal? How much will they later disappoint & withdraw? Now about your trigger question…

            No kidding, the next thing I was going to talk to you about was just *when* your ET kicks most into high gear (or, like you said, your “triggers.”)…

            There may be no rhyme or reason, but maybe this weekend, when you feel triggered, jot down what came before… maybe you’ll find there are some patterns… maybe it’s when you get bored/or are thinking about other stuff that worries you, etc…maybe it’s more *where* you are/or about those around you, and what’s up with that… it might be worth it to be more aware of that for this weekend, unless you think it’ll be a real buzz kill!

            I really hope it’s a peaceful & largely positive weekend, doll… you know where to find me whenever you need me! Should we stay here on “Come One Come All,” or do you think we should move to a quieter thread? Um…

            Hey, posters! Are you all really sick of our long posts? Please speak up, if you are. (Gosh, I think most people on this thread are empaths…they won’t actually say they’re sick of it, will they? I mean, kinda hurtful! JK!…LOL)

            Anyway, the thread choice is up to you… I’ll show up wherever. Also: I’m not going to say much that’s specific about my exBF, but do remind me sometime to tell you what he said about me being an empath. It’s good for a laugh. Also, one other thing, on how I was trying to get myself assigned to be a NISS, thinking this would solve the whole thing… and his reaction to that (“just friends” I said — I certainly didn’t say “NISS”)…anyway, his reaction said so much about how they cannot be controlled, and they are pretty programmed on how they go about their peeps – there’s a slightly funny aspect to that too…I learned a few things anyway.

            TGIF!:-)

          2. Caroline, I really liked the way you described the IPPS and the IPSS. As IPSS to MRN and IPPS to a Lesser, I’d say you are spot on. I escaped both.

            As for trying to be friends, I did not with Lesser and I did with MRN. It was exactly the same shit but without the benefit of sex. It wasn’t clear why he kept hoovering me, what he wanted, how he envisioned our relationship etc. In the end, it was impossible because he still made me anxious and I still walked on eggshells.

          3. Thanks, SMH…&I hear ya, SMH, on “impossible”…it’s just always going to be SOMETHING — something that’s very trying/impossible.

            The one bit of credit I’ll give my ex-BF is that he consistently shut down any & all my past attempts to “make it all better” [<my ERRANT, EMOTIONAL THINKING], in my proposing we be "just friends"… what an exercise in futility… which, is actually a good thing. His stance was/is always: "There will be no 'just friends.' We've been way too close for that… and that's not how you feel."

            Did you catch that? That's not how *I* feel. So, in this matter, he's taking my feelings first (lol) — without even asking my feelings… instead, he's dictating my feelings.

            It's just always so screwy.

          4. Caroline. Thanks for all the insight. Needing to just be alone and let this work out by itself. I have always been a strong person that took shit from no one. I need to get back to that and seeing stuff on the site while waiting for replies from you is killing me. The only tie I feel at this time to needing the site is you.
            So I am saying bye for now. I am not going to unblock W. Reading the posts makes me want to ask whys. And as you and HG have said “ it is because he is a narc”.
            Off on this journey alone. Scared but knowing what is right for me
            Smooches Kim

          5. Kim,
            Oh my gosh~you’re ghosting me! I’m kidding, hon. 😉 This is the only recent comment of yours I’ve seen some through, so I hope I haven’t missed anything!

            Before you go running off (if you haven’t already)…please just be sure this “being strong alone” thing is truly best for you… if it is, I’m 100% for it… but if you are doing it because you think you just “need to be” for the sake of “having it all together” (Who does? have you seen my mess lately?) — or for any other reason that’s just not good for you, please don’t… because I love being here for you!

            I get that you don’t want to start asking the “whys” in a way that gets your ET going… but, trust me, we empaths will lovingly point that out… if HG doesn’t beat us to the punch, that is. 🙂

            In any case, I am here for you, as always… and also for whatever is best for YOU.
            XO…to Infinity & Beyond!!! (<hard to believe a Greater is stuck on such a goofball, isn't it? LOL!)

          6. Caroline, Yes I did catch that. I even recognize it. I had a guy last fall try that with me. We went on a date and I didn’t want another one. ‘We’ll be good for each other,’ he said. I went a bit ballistic on him – who are you to tell me what is right for me? Then he wanted to be friends and I said no. That was a huge red flag to me. MRN never suggested what I might be thinking or might want. He was very passive in many ways or very self-controlled, like he knew what I was thinking or would do, but didn’t have to direct anything because his manipulations meant that the outcome would be what he wanted, until the very end that is, when he miscalculated.

          7. SMH,
            You know, now that I think of it…my “Don’t tell ME what to do!” attitude & freedom-loving ways is probably my saving grace… it may even help me overcome my slip-ups.

            Now that I feel a bit safer on this old thread, I’ll share just one more “funny” regarding him, when we talked openly about him having NPD & my being an empath — especially if Kim is still reading — I always like to give her a chuckle.

            So on my being an empath, try to imagine this being said to me by him, in that Greater calm/cool type way:

            Him: “It’s true that you’re angelic, in many ways… but it also must be said that there have been occasions where you have behaved *quite* badly.”

            Me: LAUGHING…LAUGHING…CANNOT STOP LAUGHING… then I catch my breath for a second…

            Him: Done now?

            Me: Yeah – uh, no – LAUGHING…LAUGHING…CANNOT STOP LAUGHING.

            😀

          8. Caroline, He’s really self-aware, isn’t he. Haha. Especially love the ‘quite.’ That’s QUITE an understatement I imagine.

            I am pretty headstrong too – I think that’s what they call it! Part of what got me into trouble was that MRN did not ever once tell me what to do. Had he done that, I would have been gone, but his control was so subtle that there was nothing obvious to rebel against. Mid-rangers are so much more insidious.

            Anyway, glad you are talking. I think Kim left for now – I read something by her yesterday. It doesn’t sound like she is handling things very well, so I hope she is okay. Maybe it is better for her not to be here.

          9. SMH,
            Kim’s being strong, but there are times to talk & times to kind of reflect on your own, so I’m sure she’ll come back on when it’s best for her. (Miss you, Kim!)

            The King? Oh yeah, real self-aware, lol. He’s *very* aware of my weak points, so I’m now fighting off guilt, that old bugaboo (he’s had a legit life emergency, but I can’t allow that to sway me, which is super tough for me).

            I’m handling it, but the life lessons continue… is it just me, or does it seem like we’ve got a whole lot more territory we have to deal with as an empath?

            Oh well, I’m still really glad I am one… I’d hate to be “normal.” lol

          10. Caroline, Yes a lot more territory and guilt is one of our greatest weaknesses if not the greatest one. It gets us into so much trouble. HG will teach you how not to feel guilty.

          11. “HG will teach you how not to feel guilty.” <<That sounds a wee bit scary there, SMH. (lol) No, I seriously know what you mean, and I appreciate it. 🙂

            One thing I should start with is reviewing HG's guilt blog entries. I should be able to apply logic to false guilt. Maybe I should write down the facts of the matter — and then what ET I'm having that leads me to sometimes think: "This is the right/kind/good thing for me to do… and I can handle it."

            Because that's really just me sacrificing my own peace/putting myself at risk in ways I shouldn't allow.

            That's what my ex-BF counts on too. It doesn't help that his family feels like I'm the only one who "settles him down." It's not their fault, but they just don't fully get it. They don't understand the "no" in NC. But I do…

            So it's my responsibility to do the truly right thing, for me. It's not selfish – it's healthy, and I need to dig deeper on that.

            Thanks, SMH. Thinking about this as I travel is good for me.

          12. Caroline, You nailed it. It’s not selfish – it’s healthy. Trust me that I have problems with this too – even asking for what I want/need. I’ve been working on it and you can too! They all count on it because they know that’s how we operate. And if you have a narc parent you know that guilt-tripping is also one of the greatest weapons in their arsenal. That’s where it starts. Maybe HG’s article about saying no will help. That one really made an impression on me. I don’t remember the title but I bet K can easily find it.

            Also, it did really help me at one point to write down everything I was thinking/feeling – kind of a mood journal. You can write a guilt journal and yes, ask youself why you feel you have to be there for him or for his family, what the implications are for you, what the alternatives are for them, etc. You will work through it.

          13. K,

            Thanks for that – I hadn’t seen it. It wasn’t that one but I remembered which I was thinking of – https://narcsite.com/2018/03/06/why-yes-is-not-always-best-5/

            Caroline, you should read it. It really made an impression on me.

            I also asked HG once about being polite, which is how we are socialized. He pointed out to me that not being polite is not the same as being mean, or something like that. Both the Yes article and that helped me a lot with the guilt, though it still rears its head sometimes!

          14. SMH
            You found it, good. If you put: Yes in the search bar, it pulls that article right up. I think this is the comment you are referring to.

            SMH
            APRIL 23, 2019 AT 21:05
            HG, if empaths cannot change who they are and narcs cannot change who they are, what is the best way for an empath to deal with a narc without being rude? If we dim our empathic traits, we feel rude – at least I do. I am having this problem with work narc. I don’t know how to act around him when he zeros in on me. It’s feeling like it did with MRN – like we have this secret empath/narc language. I need to put a halt to it before it gets out of hand, but without alienating him. Can you point to a famous person who is a normal? Or a movie scene that contains a normal and a narc? That way, maybe we can study it and have a model for how not be a magnet.

            HG Tudor
            APRIL 24, 2019 AT 09:59
            Your sensation of rudeness is common and it is your ET corrupting your empathic trait of decency. You may feel that you are being rude, but you are not logically being rude because you are entirely justified in ignoring the individual who is a narcissist. Reject the effect of your ET and ignore this individual, you are allowed to do this. You can alienate the individual, your ET makes you think you must not do so, in order to further your engagement.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/04/23/narc-magnet-8/#comments

          15. That is it, K! And thank you for finding the comment too! Hope it is of some help to Caroline.

          16. K,
            Everyone all of a sudden changed their pics!

            Hmmm, a mug. Does it — or does it not — say:

            HOGICAL
            The supreme state of hope + logic

            😉

          17. Caroline
            Time for a change. Ha ha ha…wishful thinking. Once you know, you go; I love the pink!

          18. Thanks SMH, K & NA…I can see the link on it – I’ll read it! 🙂

          19. “Mid-rangers are so much more insidious.”
            I totally agree, SMH.
            The abuse is so subtle sometimes and their nice decent guys façade so credible (they believe it themselves) that they can be tough to identify. At least at the beginning.

          20. Lou, hard to identify and hard to discredit. Mine has such a strong façade of being a likeable, social, and sweet guy that it would be impossible to convince anyone otherwise unless I went one by one showing his text messages. And I don’t have time for that shit. However, I will do a consultation with HG soon because I’m sensing he is playing the victim while smearing me and yes, I need to ignore but I feel sooooo angry!!

          21. Yes, SP, all my narcs have very solid and credible façades as good decent guys/women.
            Good luck with your consultation, SP.

          22. Lou, absolutely. Add to that, not knowing about narcissism. Very dangerous situation. I am now dealing with someone at work I go back and forth about regarding whether or not he is a narc but he is showing so many signs of passive aggression and is so similar to MRN that I have to operate under the assumption that he is one. It is the only way I understand his behavior.

          23. Caroline, I hope you got that I was liking your Caroline-is-Proud name change, not the lengthy one! The long threads that do not indent for reply make following successive comments difficult. I have zero issue with length. It is all about quality of content for me and I think you have been great!

            My notifications have been spotty for some time, so I did not see this follow-up until now.

          24. No worries, FYC~that’s so sweet of you. Thank you!

            My notifications aren’t consistent either… maybe that’s because of older threads(?) — I’m not sure, but it makes me feel bad if anyone would think I’m ignoring their comments to me…I guess, what can we do – it’s part of dealing with less-than-perfect tech stuff. *_*

          25. Thank you, Caroline and you are welcome. I would say “ Caroline-is-spot-on, but I see you dropped that style of handle 😉

            HG, I think it is possible your WP reply indent setting you had increased a few months ago was dumped in the word press update. When you have an abundance of free time, would you mind restoring your change? Thanks so much in advance.

  9. #2 Confused
    I don’t think I will ever really understand this behaviour and I will always believe there is good in everyone. It’s compulsive.
    #12 Weaponized
    Working on it. I may not understand their behaviour but I’m starting to care less and I feel more empowered every day.

  10. I see myself currently in #8 – the Introspectives, trying to learn and understand as much about narcissism/narcissists in my life as about myself and my role/function in narcissistic dynamics both in childhood and as an adult. ‘Connecting the ‘dots’ – influences/imprints and then behaviours and choices of the past and present (work/private life) – is very uncomfortable and difficult at times and a process I avoided/run from for a long time but it is also interesting and eye-opening because so much that used to confuse/destabilise makes sense now and I find calm, strength and empowerment in that realisation/self-awareness. For me, introspection is an important step to more awareness and becoming ‘weaponised’.

  11. I think Q , is very disappointed in his/ her mother , and just sees others like her very sad …and Q can’t understand why they put up with abuse . I don’t take Qs thoughts or words personally , I too know what it’s like to be turned off from watching someone kill themselves slowly day after day as a child my mother was always miserable and never seeing or never appreciating their own children , lost in their own selfish misery or addiction to whatever / a person or substance . But my mother didn’t have access to anti depressants like we all do today …..alcohol helped with anxiety as is does for many today . People are just humans …

  12. I also like to share my own view from living with a narc , escaping a narc , finding out he is a narc …and not just an alcoholic . Raising kids …with the help of the narcs money …finding my own way to secretly have my freedom in small doses ……., to raising empathic children ….who know what narcissism is first hand. I know HG has helped many and is helping the future of many. If I ever saw you HG in the real world ….I would be a quiet observer…. ..absorbing more , like a sponge .

  13. 1,2,3,4,5 and 12 hg that’s me love reading your pieces of work and now that have some knowledge of this world I am able to question my logic about things I can see narcs everywhere especially on t.v. movies etc. I also hear how people make excuses for the narcs as well it all makes perfect sense now…or does it? Lol

  14. I’m a weaponizing empath, immersing myself in this community of empaths and master narc, to better understand and prepare myself for the eventual jump-off… this ride is making me dizzy lol Also, to recognize any other narcs I may cross paths with, so that I don’t fall prey again.
    Thank you, HG, and everyone here, for giving me this space to linger and learn and share.

  15. Great piece, HG! As always, your ability to cut through and identify and categorize complex strand, phenomena, identities is impressive. (Makes me think you’re in an engineer by trade.) I could see my self in several of the categories, but which would change depending on my post-Narc evolution. The only thing I would add is that I did, and still do, come here when I miss my ex. Immediately after I left him, but even since, I let this be a place to safely experience him while healing at the same time. Like Narc Methadone. The Addicts category… just a suggestion.

  16. Loved this piece! An interesting new lens for the blog.

    All in all we are a happy little box of crayons and every day is a new door because we don’t know who will arrive to play with us.

  17. Good morning Mr Tudor, I would like to know when and why did you realize that you have to made a therapy. Thank you !

  18. FYC you give back every day! You are not a mutt, but if you were, I’m sure you would be quite adorable! 😘🙃

  19. I REALLY enjoyed this post HG. Thank you.

    I discovered your website as a 2. I have interchanged between 2,3,4 and 5, depending on where my emotional thinking vs logical thinking sits at that time.

    I am aiming to be a constant 12, and your posts and subsequent helpful comments by readers definitely help.

    But truth be told, I am hoping to be part of a group that you haven’t mentioned….

    #13 The Healed Empath

    This group has soaked up all your knowledge, and has moved on in such a way, that the world of the narcissist, and their victims is no longer in their mind. They have no need to gain anymore insight, or discuss the reasons for fuel, devaluation, disengagement or any other peculiarities that exist in an empath and narcissist dynamic.

    They are completely free.

    But I will miss you all when this day happens, to be sure.

    Mai

  20. Based on the content I have read I started out
    #1 introspective, I know that the laws of attraction work for & against me based on what I throw out to the universe. That doesn’t mean every thing I do is my fault, I am not “victim” blaming, I am simply stating that the more I become self-aware & acknowledge my own weaknesses or tendencies the more I can affect change in my life.
    #2 I am on the up, this is calm and safe place for me to share my experiences of pain, sadness, healing and cathartically release, if it happens to help other victims Wonderful! …the reason I share is I find it very therapeutic, I find the words you write HG are clear, you have a very particular style which is soothing, somehow.
    #3 I am last but by far not least Weaponising I deal with many different types of people all day, Low/High ranking people who are very influential in my city, & “working class stiffs” I want to be able to spot a Narcissist from a mile away…I am still trying to ascertain if I was raised by one…or if I attracted one “accidentally” I use that word not to say I bear zero responsibility, but just to say that I was caught off guard, I was very confused for a long time. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I refuse (vehemently) To ever have the wool pulled over my eyes again….after all what is the best predictor of the future, it’s the past….if I don’t weaponise than how will I prevent this from happening again. I believe the way to shared happiness can only be attained by openness, and shared understanding of each other, one has to themselves first? I know how to be happy on my own, I wish to one day…when The timing is right, when I am ready to potentially find shared happiness that is founded in authenticity…this cannot happen with a Narcissist (they aren’t able to be real) therefore the only Narcissist I am willing to have in my life, is you HG…because you are real..even though there are many degrees of separation, a pseudonym, and zero photos…this is the most real a Narcissist has ever been with me ever. I will not be duped again…

  21. I can see myself in so many of those groups, a lot of it is because I have been here so long now. I started out finding HGs first post on Facebook, the writing captured me from the start, as I found myself visiting the site and learning more about the man behind the writing, I became angry and confused. Angry because he was a narcissist and after the hurt and embarrassment that I was still very raw from I wanted to lash out at him! Confused because people were commenting to him and asking him for help, I couldn’t understand any of this, why would they be asking him for help? Why would they trust a narcissist? I soon found out why. I was told once by one of my instructors that respect wasn’t just something you handed out to someone, it was something that person had to earn. Well HG has earned my respect over and over again, he has taught me more about not just narcissists but about myself. There is not a week that goes by that I do not learn something new from him, whether it be about narcissist s, myself, or even the correct spelling of a word, I learn something. This place has become my sanctuary, it is a place that I have finally found where I feel safe, where people from all walks of life gather to discuss the one thing we all have in common, the hurt and confusion caused by a narcissist. I’m pretty sure if some of us would of met outside of this blog, there are some who for what ever reason wouldn’t have ended up as friendly as we are. But here we are all the same. I was gone from the blog recently for eight days, I missed some of you so very much, you have become my blog family. I have found now that I want to be here not just to learn but to help others get through the horrible pain and confusion they have suffered. I want them to know they are not alone in this, that I and so many others just like me are here to help them. Finally all the emotions that I have had my whole life can be put to good use. I don’t know if this is a new grouping or if it is what happens after spending so much time with people you respect and care about very deeply? 😘🙃

    1. FM1T, This is so sweet and well said (no misspellings!). I think we all suffer from embarassment that we were ‘had’ because even if we went into it with eyes wide open we did not see the narcissism coming. One of the things that gets destroyed is trust so it is nice to see that you can trust HG and the rest of us now. That is a huge step in the healing process.

    2. FM1T
      Know that your intention in being here for others and the contributions you make are greatly appreciated by many. You may underestimate your own strength and influence but we see it.

      1. Thank you NA. For the first time in my life, I have found a place that I feel as though I belong. You have been a huge influence from the beginning NA, whether it be your great voice of logic, one of your zingers that come out of know where at just the right time, or you standing in front of someone protecting them from others as you have been doing your whole life. The respect I have you is unmeasurable my dear sister. Thank you NA for all that you do!😘😘😘🙃

  22. I’d like to think myself as part of the last group, but I admit there needs to be an added group for those of us who get drunk and silly.

    Bibi is boozing again. (I am actually not at the moment, lol.)

    But despite my sometimes silliness or strong opinions, I greatly appreciate and admire your work, HG, as well as all who comment.

    1. Dear est Bibi,
      Ummmmmmm …. my name says it all ….I’m lining up for your group and I’ll be your first member 🤣🍾…..I’m a bit silly 😜 Haha
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  23. HG maybe there is another group? The revenge seekers. That’s where I sit now. I started out as Confused, not knowing wtf that experience was all about. Moved through to The Burnt Victim as I began to understand, Truth Seeker (always been a trait I’d like to shake. The NEED to know why is a powerful driver, I’d love to be able to just accept things – ‘it is what it is’. Pfff not likely).
    So now I understand the what, why and how. But I’m incensed I was treated the way I was, and for so long (narc trait?) Questioning my own sanity, distrusting my instincts. Shamed and humiliated, made a mockery of.
    NO! I will learn, I will prepare and I will strike where it hurts most. Repeatedly. Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!
    Maybe I’m a narc too?
    I thank you HG for being the cliff barrier rather than the ambulance at the bottom. Your knowledge sharing has truly (literally!) been life saving. I teetered at the edge of that damn cliff, confused, humiliated and hurting bad. Anger has become my all consuming emotion now, along with the desire to strike back. With deadly force if I am capable. And I need this site to show me the most effective means to do that.
    I wish I could turn the other cheek, be the better person and walk off into the sunset with dignity and grace. Yeah, nah. That’s not me. I

    1. Jaya, It’s not me either. I think anger is healthy. But it’s not healthy to stay in that state forever. Eventually you will push through it, whether you are able to get revenge or not (and I am all for revenge – I don’t think that makes one a narc).

  24. I wrote a comment here but I don’t think it went through due my mistake. I have a revised answer after giving it more thought.

    I came here as an answer seeker. Then I saw the plethora of information here and the relevance of that information in my life so I became a weaponising empath. Then as I read the discussions here and all of the interesting information and insights I became a sponge learning about information that has nothing to do with my weaponisation such as narcissists in politics and in popular culture and even genes that predispose people to be empaths, narcissists and psychopaths. Sometimes I have been a part of ‘on the up’ wanting to share my experiences to give people something to relate to just in case there are people reading with similar experiences. There have been times (not a lot) where I was in a ‘point to prove’ category when I felt challenged and underestimated. I was never interested in picking a fight with HG as I didn’t see any point in doing it. I am just grateful.

  25. Hello, H.G.Tudor.
    From my perspective, I think I’ve seen myself in many of the groups. I think this is due to the process of acceptance and understanding of the subject matter. Because it is a process through which the victim must pass, she goes from denial, to acceptance, and finally to recovery. I omit the term healing, because I believe that the victims because of their empathic character and their infestation cannot be completely healed. But if recovered to maintain a healthy life, out of emotional thought and narcissistic our two greatest enemies.
    I think you already know me a little. And you know that my empathic traits prevent me from leaving things as they are, I need to close things. It’s true, that the closure in my case occurred, some time ago. As I told you. But a small piece of the puzzle resisted me. This one was quite hidden from me. And I had to find it. As you know, a few days ago I told you that I was watching movies about Ted Bundy. While I was watching them, she showed Ted Bundy’s sexual paraphilia. This made me wonder about my narcissist’s paraphilia, which moved my narcissist mainly in all his narcissistic behavior against me. And I finally found her. The image was enlightening, but also devastating. All the experiences and experiences lived with him during my period revolved around this paraphilia. The Truth was covered with a big lie so that this paraphilia would remain in space and time for more than a decade.
    I suppose I will need a little time to assimilate this great truth. I always thought that this kind of sadistic somatic narcissist and his actions against me was because of me. But I was only chosen as an essential part, to satisfy their sexual needs through their fetish paraphilia.
    Simply my life with him was simply that being a c…..
    It’s just hard to understand and understand that I was used in such a sadistic way. It is when you discover the whole of your life with the narcissist that the little trace of humanity of the Narcissist disappears. And like an onion, you go looking for and removing layers of skin and finally you discover that in the center of it there is nothing and very likely some kind of filthy paraphilia and sexual problems…..
    Maybe you H.G. disagree with me, but I’m talking about my specific case.

    1. J.G. Remember, Ted found the paraphernalia from his grandfather at an early age. He became addicted young and would look at bondage photos etc, and then became a young peeping Tom. It is also rumored that his Grandfather is his biological father. A possible different genetic problem. His grandfather was abusive and abused animals. Also, Bundy had class pain, also, and was wounded in that his mother was supposedly a `working woman` and worked while he was home, as a young boy. He wanted to be of a higher class, and constantly found out that his actual class station was violated over and over and fell lower and lower the more he found out about his family. He thought his mother was his sister for a very long time, and then he also found out that there is no father on his birth certificated. This wounded him, in his desire to be of higher class, tremendously. Then he found out his parents were his Grandparents, or adopted parents, something like that. This wounded him. He, within his own personality, suffered much low social class pain. However, he constantly tried to maintain a higher class image and stole to make sure he was dressed well, and had the right clothing, sports equipment, etc. Then the girlfriend he loved in college that was rich and high class beautiful and popular and he called her perfect for him, and his dream girl, dumped him, because she told him he lacked vision to follow through and was not ambitious. That dumping supposedly killed his empathy, if he still had any available to him, for good. So one can not classify all the manifestations of the pathos of Narcissists in the exact same. As the pathos is created in various manners. Different forms of wounding occurred, according to the personality of the child, so the pathos will be somewhat different, as well, and carried out differently, in some ways. Or, like HG says, “variations on the theme.“

      1. No offence but these woundings did not make a serial killer.
        People go through much worse than not being from the right socio economic background and do not turn into necrophilic murderers.
        I hate the way Bundy is currently being romantised to new audiences .its stupid and dangerous and plays directly into women’s need to fixate on a lunatic and try to heal him and guess what Bundy played that card with great finesse.
        I wonder if Bundy was a grotesque looking slob would women be so interested.Of course not.
        He is not the never caught Jack the Ripper ,I can understand the fascination there.
        He was caught ,He is dead , yet he is still famous for what?

        Kiki

        1. Kiki: I by no means am succoring Ted Bundy. Perish the thought. I was just reminding J.G., that what is in the center of every Narcissist when one delayers the onions, that J.G. is speaking about, is not exactly the same with every single Narcissist, as I understood that J.F. was implying. In short. H.G. Tudor and the Narcissist that J.G. was discussing may not be the same at their very corp. Kiki, One thing that has bothered me that Bundy said, is that he would purposefully drink for the sole purpose to unleash his demon, so that his demon would come out and kill, etc. When, other Narcissists say they do what they can to keep their pathos from unleashing at full blast. Then there is a possibility that Bundy was lying about this. So Bundy is confusing me. By the way, are you watching Big, Little Lies. I am going to watch another episode now, after I prepare tea for myself. Episode 3 season 1. It is quite interesting, Kiki.

          1. Hi Princess

            .Apologises if I came across as berating anyone when I wrote this it wasn’t my intention at all.

            I kept over hearing very young females going on about him due to the Netflix series .Gushing .
            I just feel producers are romantising him to new very young audiences .
            Most of these kids never heard of Bundy before ,never saw a real documentary on him ,real footage ,or anything about his real victims , they are quite clueless.
            I do realise he was charming etc , and maybe it’s good to show that the Bad man doesn’t have to look like the fairytale creep.

            I just don’t like the romantising part , as his victims are all but forgotten but he is still in the limelight .

            I haven’t seen it no .I will though is it on Netflix ?.
            What do you think of the Meghan Markle thing ,a private Christening for Archie it’s causing a bit of a stir .
            HG is correct on this one .
            Enjoy the series 💕

          2. The portrayal of predators of any kind as ‘fairytale creep’ is actually more dangerous for victims.

          3. HG,

            “The portrayal of predators of any kind as ‘fairytale creep’ is actually more dangerous for victims.”

            Would you be able to elaborate on this? Or provide a specific example of a “fairy tale creep”?

          4. It euphemises the danger/problem.

            Any label which dilutes, distracts, euphemises, romanticises is dangerous.
            For instance in that dog dirt series Fifty Shades of Shite, Christian Grey’s behaviour is that of a narcissist, but it is not stated as such and indeed his abuse is romanticised. That is dangerous.
            In Sex and the City, Mr Big is portrayed as some kind of ‘commitment-phobe’ he is a narcissist and people are misled into thinking that something can be done to remove his commitment issues, they cannot.

          5. “Fifty Shades of Shite” Years ago, I read the books knowing nothing of narcissism. I was one of the women that fell in love with Mr. Grey. Yes his behavior was romanticized and yes that was very dangerous imprinting for the gazillion women that read it. And then he got better and they lived happily ever after. I fully understand why you criticize it so. If only I’d known then what I know now.

          6. ​Thank-you HG for elaborating  and providing examples.

            I guess I take issue, at times, with the usage of ‘fairy tale’ as I do see the romanticizing of some such characters in modern, ‘Disney-ized’ versions and similar pop culture representations as dangerous – however, I think that older, unadulterated versions of fairy tales actually give instruction against engaging or trusting such characters. 

          7. I understand the point you are making WhoCares and fairy tales are useful but they are essentially aimed at children. Using fairy tales (or similar) INSTEAD of the direct information is dangerous, using it to illustrate a point alongside existing knowledge (witness Narc Tales) is a useful way of reinforcing the point but should never be done as substitution.

          8. While I don’t agree with that fairy tales are only for children (personally I group them with other forms of allegory: mythology, fables, folklore), I do – of course – acknowledge the importance of direct information. I just can’t help but see commonalities in tales like “Bluebeard” where some eligible sisters are being courted by a charming character and despite, having inner alarms, the youngest sister convinces herself that his beard really “isn’t that blue” and so is seduced away from seeing the red flags and marries him (there are other such warning stories)…or similarly in the more modern movie “fairy tale”, Pan’s Labyrinth, the protagonist is warned against eating any food in the dining hall of the Pale Man – I see this like giving in to our more base appetites and carnal desires and thus being ensnared. Similarly, you have conveyed that the intimate bond with the narcissist is strongest when one “has partaken of the fruit” – so to speak. There are similar themes in mythology and folklore. I just can’t help but see that we learn from the narcissist in our lives – or gain a ‘prize’ …but it’s when we partake of the goods or ‘tarry too long’ is when things get problematic…
            I know that many survivors’ perspective would see nothing good having come from their entanglement – but some do. And I know that you would not encourage entertaining such train of thought…but the train is there.
            Finally, I do see your Narc Tales as ‘new and improved’ versions… certainly stripping away all the romanticized cultural overlays – AND providing your own twist on the tales.

          9. PrincessSuperEmpath
            It is very confusing but I don’t think Bundy was lying from his POV. He didn’t know that he was a narcissistic psychopath but I think he was aware that his behavior was “not the norm” so he used alcohol as an excuse/blame shift to unleash his Demon so it could kill and this is indicative of his grandiosity and omnipotence and a further blame shift.

            There is a scene in Big Little Lies about fighting demons. Just wait for it! I was like: Aha, a blame shift!

          10. K
            I agree. Blame shifting. StepN used to blame his violent rages on alcohol and say that he couldn’t remember what happened. Never his fault. He also loved fuelling up by announcing that he was going out for a few because he knew that would have everyone in fear of what to expect when he arrived home.

          11. NarcAngel
            He was a fucking sicko who enjoyed the proximate and thought fuel of terrorizing you, your siblings and your mother, then blame shifted it away or “forgot” about it (compartmentalizing/gas lighting). Absolutely inexcusable and horrific. Monsters torture children and that is exactly what he was; a fucking monster. I am so sorry that you had to deal with that. No child should be exposed to that, ever.

          12. K
            That ‘s why I approached him and asked him (when he was sober and in a neutral (ish) mood) why he drank. He said because he could say things then that he couldn’t otherwise. I told him when he was drinking no one wanted to hear them. Then I told him that from then on I would know that when he drank he planned to hurt us. I knew somehow that it wouldn’t change anything, but I wanted him to know that I might be a child, but I wasn’t buying his bullshit that it just happened and he didn’t remember. I read in a comment where you said you thought your mother enjoyed the violence. Did she fight back? Do you think she felt she should be punished in some way? To feel anything but numb? Because she was also a narc and addicted to the high of negative emotion and energy? Can you shed any light on why you thought she engaged in the way that she did? As always, if it is too intrusive or triggering a question I understand.

          13. NarcAngel
            As a child, you were put into a position that was meant for an adult, you were The Protector and you were holding him accountable for his behaviour. You remind me of my older sister; she would hide us in the attic while she waited for the police to arrive. It is unimaginable for a child to be forced into that role.

            I don’t recall my mother ever fighting back, on the contrary, she seemed to enjoy it and I never understood it until I learned about fuel. Violence is fuel and she loved violence.

            Once, my father held a knife to my mother’s throat and my mother asked my NPD sister to remove the knife from him. Q. Who the fuck does that?! A. A narcissistic mother.

            Violence was a family affair. My aunt would beat up the other mothers in the neighborhood and then she would send her children (my cousins) out to beat up their children. I thought everyone was insane; I was wrong; they are just disordered.

          14. K, NA, I was also that sister/protector. My father is an alcoholic and I carried all the drama of my parents’ fights. I had to cover for them in front of my siblings. Thank goodness there was not much violence, however. K, what you describe is completely insane. I actually wonder how your dad ended up after your mom hit him with that iron-cast pan! I can’t even hold mine with just one hand as heavy as it is, my goodness!

          15. Sweetest Perfection
            I feel bad for you, NA and my sister. You should not have had to cover /clean up after your parent’s dramas and children should not be responsible for protecting their siblings from their own parents or other abusive adults either. That’s the fucking responsibility of the adults…oh, wait a minute, our parents were entitled to drink, terrorize and abuse all of us; they are not accountable for royally-fucking-us-all-up or for providing a safe environment. Gee, what was I thinking!

            I think my mother knocked him out, most of my memories are partial so I don’t remember. Google: Miss Trunchbull, from Matilda and you will see why she could lift a cast-iron fry pan. She was a Beast!

          16. K, HOLY MOLEY! She’s a mountain! I’m officially scared of your mother now! I didn’t have to endure much physical violence; however, the psychological pressure was unforgettable. Once, my mom accused my dad of spending all his money on drinking. He then woke me up (I was probably 7) and said: our daughter is very smart, she can calculate how much I spend. And he handed me all the bills so that I did the math. I actually covered him because I didn’t want any drama. I’m very good at handling and counting money, probably thanks to this. Hey, the talents you get from abusive parents, right?

          17. Sweetest Perfection
            Ha ha ha…survival of the fittest! Your math manipulation skills will stay with you for life. You could do the books for the Mafia.

            Ha ha ha…my mother was a mountain! She is older and smaller than she once was and, as I grew, she became less and less of a threat to me.

            Psychological pressure/violence is just as bad and, sometimes, it is worse. When you think about their behaviours and what they did to us, it’s nuts!!!

            Q. What kind of father wakes up his 7-year-old daughter to calculate how much money was spent on booze? And what kind of mother allows that?

            A. A Narcissistic father, that’s who!

            We grew up in The Twilight Zone.

          18. K, hahaha! yes. It definitely is survival of the fittest. My dad’s father was like my dad, but I am sure I got my negotiating skills from my grandmother, she definitely could do the books for the Mafia! She learned how to hide everything she bought from my grandfather, they ran a pharmacy together and she bartered anything she or the family needed with the neighbors in exchange for free medicine. She’s the boss! Still alive and kicking, she’s almost 100. I never thought my dad could be a narc until you mentioned it, K. It makes sense I guess, he’s definitely selfish and hates not having total control. On another occasion I came from studying with a classmate. I spent the evening in her house and then walked back to mine. I didn’t notice the time. When I arrived, it was an hour past my curfew. My dad opened the door with pure RAGE in his face and slapped me, screaming at me and calling me all kinds of names while my mom asked him to stop. Due to the emotional trauma, I developed an allergic rash all over my body. I was only 11 or so and came from a girlfriend’s house, but you would tell from his reaction that I came from selling my body on the street or from dealing drugs, who knows. Totally irrational.

          19. Sweetest Perfection
            Your grandmother sounds feisty!

            Ok, so your father’s reaction was not “the norm”. His anger was irrational and indicative of narcissistic rage then there’s the physical violence, verbal abuse and intimidation. He was terrorized and assaulted you to draw fuel (from you and your mother), assert control and reinforce his need for superiority and self-worth. For the love of God, you were just a child! I am so sorry you went though that. SP, he sounds like a lesser. Is it possible that both your parents are narcissists?

          20. K, I don’t think my mom is but she definitely is trapped in this dynamic. They are still together despite the fact that she is always lamenting having stayed with him. Now they are older and my dad has become calmer although colder, my
            mom and I have a good relationship. I’m the only child who, one day, starting saying I love them. Nobody ever said “I love you” in my family, that was considered a sign of weakness. Now my mom says it to me all the time. My brother and I developed a very emotional personality, we are very similar and get along fantastically. I think my sister, who’s in the middle, is a narc.

          21. Sweetest Perfection
            The coldness never leaves but some narcissists do “seem” to mellow as they age. I am happy that you have a good relationship with your mother and brother, that’s a good sign, just avoid your sister as much as you can. Life is too short to allow toxic people into your life.

          22. K. I find it confusing. What if I told a judge, before he sentenced me, that I drank alcohol so that I could rob a bank, whenever I had a keen urge to rob a bank? What would a judge think of this statement? I am confused by this form of blame shifting, as you label it. There must be various types of blame shifting, but this type baffles me.

          23. PrincessSuperEmpath
            The judge wouldn’t buy it and would sentence you to serve time in jail for your crime thus holding you accountable to the law.

            It’s baffling because you are looking at it from YOUR inner world.

            Let’s do a lineup:

            Take a CoD, a normal (apath), a Narcissist, an ASPD, and an empath.

            Something happens externally that they all experience together as a group, HOWEVER, each individual internalizes it very differently. They experience the external act from THEIR inner world based on THEIR hardwiring/personality.

            TB had no insight. He probably had no idea that he was a narcissistic psychopath and, from his POV, he was normal because that is what he was wired to be; a psychopathic serial killer. Narcissists are normal and so aren’t empaths BUT we are completely different hence the Clash of Personalities.

            They are wired to reject blame; ergo, the blame shifting and there are myriad forms of blame shifting.

            I hope this helps you understand. It’s very difficult.

        2. Kiki: I never saw the Netflix one, just the documentaries. Awful stuff, when you hear the explicit documentaries. Many of them redact the horrible stuff. Just type in Google: How can I watch Big Little Lies for free in___________? Just fill in the blank for where you live and options for your review on channels that bought the series will show up. I fear I may not be able to keep up with the activities of our much discussed Ms. Markle. But, I will say, that this has to be a role of a lifetime. I believe she is quite a dedicated actress, because I watched her show, Suits, for a season, before all of this royal marriage hoopla was at all in the works, and this role has to be tops. With wonderful costumes and jewelry and tiaras and staff and different roles to play, and servants and castles and mansions and estates and royal family members, and her new son, and the entire earth as her stage. All without the responsibility of being next in line for the throne (for now. lol ) Oh, and she has Harry-I forgot about him. Hahaha.

  26. Sponge here. HG’s teachings even follow me in my dreams, e.g. being provoked by a narc (in a dream) and thinking I should not engage and starve them of fuel. NOT kidding.

  27. I am an Introspective with strong narcissistic traits. Your site, as well as Vaknin’s has helped me tremendously in understanding what I am, what my family is and how to proceed with my life in the future. It’s been a great resource and I have to add one of my guilty pleasures is to read the comments and to follow, in time, some of the commenters and see how their story unfolds. It’s really a show of its own. I do pitty empaths and codependents because my mother was one and lived a most unhappy life. I still feel sorry for her, it;s been a useless life, shou would have benefit of your site a lot…
    Many commenters remind me of her. I feel sorry for them, too. Especially those who keep talking about putting their faith in love, in being warm and kind and compassionate in their future lives aka they are waiting for the next narcissist to make them unhappy. It beats me how they can do it.
    To add to the list you made, I suggest the cathegory of victims who are sure they were victims precisely because they are good, warm and caring. they list what they did for their narcissist and are hurt because the narcissist did not honour their care and warmth and compassion. Not once they say they are sorry for being so easy giving of themselves. Not once do they question themselves as to why they accepted so little for the so much they had offered. These are people who fail to see how flawed they are and how little they value themselves. They see value in their weakness and they chose to see their weakness and naivete as a quality and keep lamenting of how they were wronged. It beats me how they do it, this is somehow very narcissistic but at 180 degrees.

    1. Q, I see a lot in your comments about ‘value,’ ‘giving and getting,’ and ‘worth.’ But for many of us, not everything in life is transactional. Human beings are much more complicated than buying something in a shop. I don’t think your worldview makes you a narc (maybe you are one, maybe not) but ours doesn’t make us stupid or naive empaths either.

    2. Q, I am a Co- Dependent and yes I would have benefited greatly from HG and his knowledge if he were around when I was younger. My Co/ dependency is something I have had since early childhood from the physical, mental, and sexual abuse I had suffered at that time. I don’t see my life as wasted however, Although I will admit there were and still are times I wonder why I was even born, which is not very often anymore and only when I let my ET corrupt my mind. As for the love
      devotees that you speak of that are on here, I believe strongly in the knowledge they are given from HG and others on here, for them not to give up on there true emotions is very commendable after the hurt some of them have gone through. I do not think they are waiting for another narcissist to come along however, I think in time and HGs knowledge they will learn to spot that narcissist and avoid them completely, saving all of there love, warmth, and compassion for someone who is normal and will give back to them what they so generously give. Some on here are very emotional and that emotional thinking is what caused them to stay and keep giving even though they were given nothing in return. They are not flawed, they just do not understand what they had become involved with, in there trusting, good and honest hearts and minds they cannot fathom an individual doing the things a narcissist does. They should not have to apologize for who they are and what they feel. That is one of the many reasons HGs work is so very important, here in this place and in his books, videos, and consults they can learn what they need to learn so that they will never be ensnared by a narcissist again! Thank you for your comments, at one time before I found this place and HG, your words would have hurt and I would have felt that you were correct in all that you said and never questioned or thought otherwise. Now I know that everyone is different and entitled to there opinion, and by keeping my ET under control I can look at things with an open mind and learn from it. I hope you stay and continue commenting.

      1. Foolme1time, just a couple of things that crossed my mind reading your comment. Firstly, there is something very childlike about you, which I find really sweet.
        Secondly, childhood abuse is the most hideous of all crimes and I admire you very much for having endured that. You are strong!!
        Codependency was your way of surviving and that’s OK. Just be aware of what your vulnerabilities are so you can protect yourself.

        1. EmP,
          Thank you for your comment. What I have come up with so far is that my Codependency relates to men, which is something I’m struggling with because it was men (usually) that were my abusers. I think at times my emotions and writing-what I feel, not worrying about grammar, spelling, or vocabulary, but what is in my heart at the time is what you and others may see as childlike? I had my children at a young age, (about a year after high school) and there have been times when people think we are siblings instead of Mother and child. My daughter handles that better then my son does! 🤷‍♀️lol

          I am constantly now aware of my vulnerabilities thanks to HGs help and knowledge. I am trying to stay on top of all of this and slowly cut away at those chains that have been wrapped around me for years. I do not feel very strong, I simply do what I have to do, when I have to do it. That is something that I learned at a very young age also. EmP, Thank you! 😘🌻

      2. FM1T I second EmP’s comment. I have a lot of respect for what you had to and have overcome. It is immense for anyone but especially for a young child it is immeasurably damaging. You are obviously a strong person to have survived that without being afraid to love and care for others again. You are also very lovable and I wouldn’t have guessed that you went through all of that because of how lovely and sweet you are. I agree with you that codependency is a survival mechanism in an unhealthy dynamic. I admire that you have now seized the power to thrive outside of that unhealthy dynamic.

      3. FM1T
        Your comment shows compassion. It also shows your growth in being able to keep your ET under control to consider another viewpoint much different than your own might be, and even encourage further participation so that you might get something from it by being open. You rock.

        1. Thank you NA!😉 I am desperately trying to keep my ET under control, I find recently a deep struggle with in myself to do so. I have at this point a few options that I am looking at, one that I know ( even though it would upset me very much to follow through with) in time would work. I also have you to thank for the control that I have established up to this point. I have told you often how very much you have helped me and also how much I respect you. The logic and honesty that you show on here has helped guide me in that growth that you see. Just knowing that you see it means more to me then you will ever realize. If I do not take the time to try and understand a viewpoint that may be much different then my own, how will I ever make that separation between myself and them. The damage that was done to me as a child was not my fault, but continuing to allow that damage to control me for the rest of my life is my fault. Thank you NA for being that voice of reason and logic inside of mind as I struggle to keep moving forward. You my dear NA are the one that rocks! I love you! 💞

          1. FM1T
            That’s very kind. You’re doing the work though – I’m just observing, so the credit goes to you.
            Fault is a shitty and final sounding word that is usually used to assign blame unnecessarily. We’ll leave that to team Narc. How about…currently unreconciled in having actions meet desired goals for Team Empath? As a thought process only though, because writing that out is too long haha.

          2. I just found this thread and I won’t get a word press notification from this comment (because of a phone/app/word press thing) but this dialogue is excellent! Both NA and Fool..

          3. Thank you Claire! She has helped me more then she will ever realize! 😘

      4. FM1T, I just want to say you were born because you are a gift to us all. What others think or how they behave is no reflection of who you are, it is a reflection of who they are.

        1. FYC, Thank you as always for your kind words. As I have said in previous comments recently I am struggling to control my self hate and feelings of worthlessness, however it is not something that I dwell on! I have always been able to pull my self out of these emotions by simply realizing how truly blessed I am, and also learning to ignore and retreat from those situations, people, and especially comments that trigger these emotions. You are a true treasure to me and your words never fail to help! 😘🥰

          1. FM1T, You are more than welcome. Gratitude is very powerful. I am also happy you recognize certain unsupportive people and triggering issues and instead of enduring them, you protect yourself. This is very wise.

            You deserve to know that you are a unique treasure. None of knows the ripples we leave in the pond or how each ripple touches others along the way. You make a difference in both seen and unseen ways. You matter.

            Even when you fear worthlessness you are not worthless. These thoughts stem from fear and false logic (and likely from the influence of a primary caregiver). Please reject these lies when they arise. Your creation, your soul is beautiful and to be honored. There is only one of you in all of human history–unique and valuable. Please embrace the gift of you as we do.💞

          2. FYC
            Recognizing some of those triggers has been something I’ve only begun to learn and do, but I am definitely getting there. Some of the thoughts of worthlessness and never being good enough, has stemmed from years of conditioning. This is something that I’m just now trying to grasp and honestly am having difficulty with. Even understanding it is something I struggle with, but I know HG would be able to explain it to you better. You have away with words Dear FYC that always seems to touch my heart and make it happy! Thank you. 😘💞

          3. FM1T, my few heart felt words will not undo years of abusive conditioning. But, I do believe when you find your own truth you can cut through years of abuse and recognize lies when you encounter them and reject them. I have seen you do so already. I just wanted to tell you the truth so you would know because it matters.;)

          4. FYC, I had to think about what I wanted to write to you, to be able to put in to words you would understand, instead of just writing with my heart full of emotion. That is something I know I may start out trying to do, but it will not end up that way. The conditioning you spoke of has been with me since I can remember, my earliest abuse ( I have just found out recently) started when I was just about two years old. There has been some on here who have spoke of me seeming childlike, I am sure that has been brought on by my emotional growth being slowed or halted at an early age. But I realized something yesterday, that I had not realized before and you will be the first one I share that with. Having my children at an early age was difficult and I struggled to give them the things that they needed. I have learned that I will do what I have to do , ( whether others think these things may have been wrong or not, it didn’t matter to me.) in order to survive, taking care of my children did not change that but only made it stronger. I thought I could not love anything more then I did them, how wrong I was. Those two children have given me two sweet, precious boys that I love more then anything else in this world! I had my oldest who is five, with me yesterday, we decided to walk to the park. Him and I had the greatest adventure, one that I’m sure, if I would not have this childlike mind would not have been so amazing. There were two play sets set up with ropes and ladders, sliding boards with tunnels and even steering wheels. We turned those two play sets into pirate ships, he even let me be the captain! As we sailed the seas we were attacked by another ship, with sword in hand we battled those pirates, sliding and climbing and running across rope bridges, going through tunnels and firing our cannons. We were protecting Assateague Island, the ponies and treasure that had been buried there! To be able to do that with him and still feel and see that adventure coming to life as he did, made me realize how lucky I am to still have this childlike mind! I have been envious at times of some on this blog, for there careers, education and intelligence, but yesterday with that little boy having an adventure of a lifetime, I was not envious at all, I would have not traded that day for any amount of money, social status, fancy trips, or power in the world! As we walked home ( him with ice cream bar in hand) we met his parents. I was given devastating news that once again my family would have to fight through! I didn’t know how to feel or do anything but fight! That childlike person who was just there a minute ago was gone and in her place stood the woman who always was there for her family given them the strength and willpower to fight! No matter what life threw at us we would stay together and go down fighting, to us there was never any other option because I would never ever let there be. So you see FYC, the abuse and lies, although they have damaged and left me broken, have also allowed me to enjoy and share with my two boys adventures that some ( because now they are adults, with there adult minds) will not be able to do, it has also given me a strength that no matter how much I’m abused, lied to, or hurt, I will not give up, and will continue to keep fighting! I hope this helps you understand me a little bit better? Thank you for letting me share this with you, and for taking the time to read it! 😘😘💞

          5. FM1T

            Stop telling and speaking untrue words about yourself.

            Your not broken, period.
            Your not the only one with child like ways. It is a beautiful thing to be able to experience a moment like you did with that little boy, it is sad how many adults lose that ability.

            Friday when I was returning home from being in the water for 5 hours ( to which I am paying for dearly) I was observing a woman with two small children in tow, what and how she was speaking to them actually caused me to feel anger. She didn’t see or feel how her words and tone were truly affecting them. Children are little humans to, just because they are children doesn’t give anyone the right to speak towards them disrespectful it is only teaching them that being disrespectful is ok and acceptable.

          6. Twilight
            Your right, I spent all day yesterday with a three and five year old, ( plus other family ) also around water what a time we had. Children will only learn what is taught them, not respecting them will cause them not only to cause them to disrespect others, they will also disrespect themselves.

            Something very important happened to me last evening, there is a chain that has been wrapped around me since I was about 11 years old. Last night I took the first step in removing that chain, I did it with a clear mind, and no emotions, how I did that is still unclear to me, something inside of me just said enough, no more, you will not treat me like this anymore! I have much to think about and also much to do. Thank you dear Twilight for helping me see myself in a whole different light. 😘🙃

          7. FM1T, Thank you so much for sharing your sweetest memory. I almost could not read the end through the tears. I understand completely. I only wish I could have prevented your abuse from the start. I feel protective of you and I do not want to see you hurt. That is why I tell you what I believe with all my heart.

            You remind me of someone I know (also a CoD) who had very unhealthy parents (we never met, they are both dead) who abused her and she was also abused by their friends. It is a heart crushing story and she still pays the price almost four decades later. Not because she does not try to rise above it (she is strong), but because she cannot erase the past and she perceives the past as she experienced it as a child, not as the smart adult she is today. Children tend to internalize experiences to a point they believe they caused them or were in some way responsible for their abuse, even though they most certainly did not/are not.

            Like you, she is so sweet and giving and amazing with kids. She has had two relationships with narcissists (one possibly psychopathic) that were devastating. I think in her dynamic, she wants to love them enough to turn the key and all will be well. Like solving a childhood mystery. If she can love and give enough she will magically have the family she never did and feel whole. This never happens and she is crushed. It is hard to hear about. She allows herself to get involved too deeply in others problems and then those problems become her own. She seems to feel more valued/loved when she is taking on others problems. I try to explain her worth is intrinsic, it cannot be earned or taken away. It simply always is. I hope she takes this truth to heart. Time will tell.

            FM1T, I hope you find freedom from your ongoing struggles. I admire your willingness to give your all to protect your kids. It is a loving and selfless act that will make a difference for generations (ripples in the pond). I just hope you know it does not define your value. You are beautiful and worthy regardless. Only you can decide what you know to be true. Claim your truth and honor it. If you doubt me, consider this: you would never think for a moment your children are worthless or unlovable. Yet you are that same innocent child too. You unfortunately had a mother that could not give what you give your children so freely and willing.

            Sending you love and hugs!

    3. Q. Lamenting is a stage in our growth. You are ignoring our other stages. You are ignoring our growth and our successes, some small successes and some great successes. If we were all so satisfied with our pain and if we all felt that we had nothing to learn and no need to grow, and if we all were so satisfied with this dynamic, we would not be on here. We would just be lying on a pile of wet tissues somewhere weeping in silence. Many of us have been silent for so long, for so many reasons, that if wailing, `woe is me,` is our first step in healing, let us wail. We found a place where someone listens to every word we say and a place where others understand us in all of our stages of growth. Even feeling pity for ourselves and self anger and self denial. There is no need to sell us short. We have seen enough of that. Too much of that, really.

      1. Precisely PSE! Healing is a journey. You can’t make an assumption in a person based on a few comments that you have read because it depends on where they are in their journeys.

        Q I have some idea of what you said about your mother. My husband have told me several times that his mom was always sad. He showed me the few pictures that he has of her and her face had a very unsatisfied and blank expression. It almost looks like her spirit was taken from her. She was married to his alcoholic father who treated her badly. And unfortunately she died young. Life is not always long. We don’t know when we will go. It’s best to leave a legacy of kindness, love and joy to the people around us who deserve it. Narcs are not worth our time.

        Btw, to be honest, I have never seen any posts here by any commenters who celebrated their weakness and naïveté. I think you were just imagining that.

    4. Q, there is no victim without a perpetrator. We are not flawed, they are. They are the ones that are underdeveloped and lack that wide range of feelings that all other humans, not just empaths, can experience and they cannot. Meanwhile, empaths, do extraordinarily good things for other people, can feel others’ feelings, can feel the power of nature, and some of us can even use the narcissistic traits to destroy the narcissist. I believe we are powerful people, and I believe the future belongs to empaths. Because like cancer cells, narcissists cannot take over and feed on themselves, whereas we, on the contrary, don’t need them or anybody to keep on existing. You are wrong in saying none of us regrets loving narcissists; I do feel sorry for having given my attention, my love, my friendship, to my narcissist but I didn’t know what he was. And like me, many of us in this blog have expressed the same feelings of regret, rage, shame. I’m not naive and I’m not a masochist. I was just ignorant. But not anymore. Ironically, it was a narcissist who taught us this, but empaths learn and get ready to fight. We are not weak.

      1. Everyone has made good responses that are factual, but I also want to say that in relation to Q’s stance on victim and what you say here SP about perpetrator (true)-
        Q, if you really are following the stories it should also be obvious that often the narcissist did start out giving, giving what seemed like everything. The problems came into play possibly years later when they stopped and went into devalue phase. And yes it’s good to leave at that time, but there are many complicated reasons why it’s not easy to do.
        Examples:
        Attachment (love/protection has already developed for the empath), children, lack of resources, confusion/mind games, misunderstanding that it’s truly technically not fixable, having been isolated instinctively by the narcissist, and simple, straight up FATIGUE (I’ve been in that one).

        What we can come to understand is that even “positive” indicators of narcissism are a red flag because they are still objectifying and indicative of a “possession” mindset.

    5. Q
      You say you have strong narcissistic traits (but you do not say you are a narcissist) but then say you pity empaths and codependents because your mother was one. Do you consider yourself a normal then?

      My interpretation of your comment (in reducing emotion) is:

      That you think there should another category for SOME (not all) who never accept their part in the involvement with the narcissist. That focusing all of the responsibility onto the narcissist will allow them to continue to be victimized in future. That they are somewhat flawed in their thinking (not as people) just as the narcissist is. That you consider it a weakness that people in this category espouse the goodness and traits of empaths but do not always value themselves enough to consider some introspection and establish boundaries so that they are not ensnared in future.

      Did I interpret that as you intended or am I mistaken? I ask because I am also highly narcissistic (but still an empath) and my use of logic or language has sometimes been misinterpreted due to people placing different emotion on my words than I intended. Some people confuse accepting some responsibility with blame. There is a big difference and unfortunately both wording and emotional thinking plays a large part in that.

      1. NA, I read Q’s comment a couple times and wanted to reply but I suspect from previous comments that Q is in the Seagull category. I always laugh at the commenters that praise the narcissist (HG) and shame the readers. I wish I could look at a comment like that and have a positive response like FM1T. Her comment is the perfect example of her kindness and compassion yet shows boundries being set by expressing that Q’s comments could be hurtful to some. I interpret Q’s pity of empaths and codeps as criticism. Im pretty sure I didn’t misinterpret that. It makes me wonder if a little self reflection is in order on her part. I don’t know, I could be wrong, I’m feeling pissy today. Who knows maybe I’ll feel pity tomorrow. Damn emotional empathy!

      2. Hi NA, I believe that Q was just being provocative. This is the third comment from him that I have seen that was meant to be provocative. I’m not saying that he’s a narcissist, he could be a Normal who just doesn’t have the perspective to be empathic with some empaths that he is talking about. He could also be a Norma who’s style in bringing up ideas is to be provocative so that his ideas get as many attention from shocked people as possible. I don’t believe that anyone here can have a real insight into what is going on in each commenter’s mind just by looking at their posts. We have no idea if they really never took any responsibility about their part in the dynamic just because they never mentioned it in their posts. Some empaths (including myself sometimes) use this blog to vent as is being encouraged in the Vent Your Spleen Box. And when you vent, sometimes you just want to vent about the narcs being jerks to you. When you vent you don’t usually make an effort to make your venting fair and balanced toward the narcissists and give their side of the story. These comments are usually written by empaths who are still hurting. Like what PSE have said, healing is a journey. And sometimes there are even setbacks in that journey. And to for each of us to find ourselves here reading about narcissism speaks for itself that we are taking responsibility and trying to arm ourselves. And we cannot and should not compare our healing journeys with others. Some are faster and some are slower owing to circumstances that are unique to each one of us. We all went through unique trials and we’re all survivors. We should honor each other’s journey.

    6. Q, eastern meditation says that what we dislike in others points back to us. To see codependency acted out in front of us triggers us negatively. Yes, I admit I experience that too at times, and it puzzles me, even more because with Nex I was quite the codependent myself. So I am trying to understand.

      That we are triggered negatively would mean (following the philosophy of eastern meditation) that it relates to something inside of us – a common denominator. Could it be that we share shame with codependents – but we chose to cover that with pride/independence, while codependents deal with it by being devoted/dependent? (don’t feel obliged to answer)

  28. I started out #3 seeking answers and read for almost a year before making any comment. After reading about familial narcissists I worried I was a blind #7, but since I have massive empathy for others, I got past the fact that I have a couple familial narcissists. I learned more about some narcissistic traits of my own and realize it is ok to have some, so I moved on to number, #4. I remain a sponge for all I can learn here, not only about narcissism, but also about being an empath. HG and so many of you inspire me to discover more daily on so many interesting topics. Even my vocabulary has expanded due to HG and others. What a great group! Thank you all! I have massive gratitude hinted at in #10, and thankfully, I am weaponized and free, due to my education here, and now I sincerely desire to give back as mentioned in #12. So I guess I’m a mutt 😉 If I’m off base, I welcome being set straight!

    A funny side note, because of being a sponge, I was at a party a couple weeks ago and narcissism came up. I was quoting HG and the group asked for the link. So I might be spawning more sponges, lol 🧽😉

  29. I see myself in the last group as I feel so much stronger and empowered than when I found this blog; but I also would like to add the humor group: those who like to make fun of the situations in order to relief the tension and hard feelings. Never underestimate humor, because humor is therapeutic and it’s a sign of intelligence. I value your sense of humor and the one of those who show a comical side here as well, as it helps me cool off and remove the drama a little. And I often like to refer to my narc in comical terms because, well, just because he is laughable. I know it’s not the experience everyone has had, and I know a lot of people have gone through horrific experiences. But humor helps. Having said that, a friend told me a joke yesterday (it’s pretty cheesy but I loved it): Why did the narcissist cross the road? -He thought it was your boundaries 😎

    1. Sweetest Perfection, thank you so much for this! I think sometimes I really need to step back and laugh at the 3 years I was with my ex narc. It was an absolute joke from start to finish, and in moments of clarity, I would shake my head and think “what the actual fuck is going on here?!” It was comedy mixed up in parody mixed up in satire….. and ultimately tragedy….. ha!

      And I LOVE your joke! I started with strong boundaries. I ended with none. That asshole didn’t just cross the road…. he steamrolled right over it 🙂

      1. Mai51, for some reason I missed your comment, sorry. Don’t say it ends in tragedy; that’s why a mixed genre exists: tragicomedy. It’s painful but in the end you laugh. And you know what they say: (s)he who laughs last, laughs best. And empaths are that last, because narcs simply cannot put an end, so we laugh best.

    2. SP, You are absolutely right – the first thing I posted today was thanks for the morning laugh! And now I get another one. Priceless. That’s a great inside joke.

    3. Hi SP, Here’s some more cheese for you 😉
      “How many narcissists does it take to screw in a light bulb? None, they only use gaslighting.”

      “A narcissist was playing golf when a funeral procession passed by on the adjacent street. Seeing the hearse, he removed his cap and gave a nod. His fellow golfer said, ‘Wow! I am impressed, that was so nice of you to pay respect to a stranger, I never would have expected that from you.’ The narcissist replied, ‘That wasn’t a stranger, it was my wife.’”

      1. FYC, thanks for the jokes! 🤣 I didn’t know there were so many about narcissists!

    4. SweetestP. `Why did the narcissist cross the road? -He thought it was your boundaries 😎` Hahahaha! SweetestP, You just reminded me of this joke I heard: `If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck: it is a narcissist, because he heard you liked ducks!` LOL!!!

      1. Princess, yep! Hahaha mirroring is so obvious that sometimes I wish I could talk to the narc again just to drive him crazy, tell him that I love ducks so that he acted like one and then immediately switch: oh I was kidding! I actually HATE ducks 🤣

  30. HG
    You forgot The Seagulls.

    Fly in erratically and shit all over the place while squawking ”Mine, mine!” and then fuck off, never to be seen again. (Hopefully).

  31. I am the Burnt Introspective Sponge; I come for Tools. I am new, so I mostly tryyy to listen and read before asking questions (both the blog & comments). But there have been a couple of times (when prompted by the burnt part of me) that I have asked something. I try to be patient and read first, though😬 No matter the group, I really appreciate the comments, there are quite a few that have really helped me and I am thankful for the openness and willingness to share, it really ads to your blog.

    On the Up is the goal…someday. I dont usually comment a whole lot. There’s so much I dont know, so much to learn. It also takes energy I usually dont have. I was making good progress in recovering from a health condition. Then the narc came. Im struggling now…still, after a year. Im glad he doesnt know. He’s still poking around Fb trying to find out, though. (Its nice to be able to say somewhere that Im struggling. Chinese are not allowed to say such things out loud IRL).

    #9 cracks me up! As an ever brief thought, I wonder what it is that compels a person to spend precious time on something so seemingly purposeless… I chuckle for the nanosecond it takes me to scroll past🤣

    I liked this post, Mr. Tudor. It was interesting to read your thoughts about your blog– Ive wondered, in passing, what they were. Nice of you to share, also.

    1. Thank you, FM1T! You know you are too! Plus you are never in the ‘mean girls’ group :-).

      1. No need to thank me SMH, it was the truth. Have a great weekend sweetie! 😘🙃

  32. I have two questions:
    1. Can a narcissist take revenge on someone for not complimenting him and that they do not admire him, do not praise him, do not treat him in a special way? (for example, a manager takes revenge on an employee who does not treat him in a special way and does not admire him, he just comes and works, or in a group of friends, a person spends more time with other person than narcissist)
    2. If I understood well, love bombing is, among other things, for the person to pay back. If a person does not repay for some reason (for example, is not in love with the narcissist) then the narcissist may lose patience and attack or try to destroy the victim?
    (I think the answer to both questions is yes, but I prefer to make sure from the expert.).

  33. SMH: Oh my goodness!! I just saw this: `I hope that others can learn from my stories and examples, and from whatever advice I can provide, ` I just mentioned you as a person that I learned a lot from. This is happening. 🙂

    1. Thank you, PSE! I am happy to hear that. I didn’t name anyone because – too many! But I have loved my conversations with you. xo

  34. Dearest HG: I also like the input of the people that are readers on here that have worked and studied in various areas of the mental and social professions, and people that have dealt with an incredible number of situations with people of various disorders professionally and including their own families, like FYC and K and Claire and SMH and Mommypino and Kiki and Nunyabiz and many others ( I do not mean to leave anyone out of so many people on here), and I like some people that came on here, but sadly would not stay because they found they were lacking in what they thought they knew, and then they became angry and stalked out. I wish they would come back, and fight it out so to speak. But, maybe it is not the right time for them to see certain fallacies in their belief system. It is not for me to say. I appreciate the people that are friendly to me on here. It has been a respite, after warring with a clique of 4 people on my job for over 3 years. A lot of amazing and unbelievably good knowledge is on here. And I like that the material is written in a sort of artistic way that is easy to visualize and understand. And, when my eyes are tired, I just go to your audio. HG, I know you value your intellect, but you are Quite Artistic, I hope you know. Anyway, I do not know what category I fall in on the above list, though. And, I do not want to guess. I`ve had enough guessing the pass 3 years to last a lifetime. And I am not joking.

    1. Thank you PrincessSuperEmpath, I always enjoy your stories and insights. I’m glad that we provide each other respite from the narc dynamics we have all been entangled in. I learn so much here from HG and all of you. 💕

    2. Thank you kindly, PSE. If I may, I would like to add HG, the master of all sharing here, and Narc Angel to your list. NA has endured much and remains so strong and stays here to pay it forward and shares her quick wit and humor too.

      We don’t get to choose our families, but we do get to choose everything else in life. I am grateful for the opportunity to learn and share and be FREE’d. I’m so glad you found your respite here and I appreciate your contributions as well.

    3. PSE, cliques can be a traumatizing experience for people and involve scapegoating, etc… making people physically ill. I’m not sure if you’ve talked about your situation on here, but I’m sorry you went through that. Did you move on from it to another job?

      I was talking to my daughter quite a bit yesterday because she was moody, so I started to try to figure out what she’s experiencing at school at the end of the year, it’s easy to lose track. I worry about who her friends are, I never have to worry with my son so far luckily. His friends are a lovely group of mostly somewhat “nerdy” boys who aren’t the fastest growing up in the class, but treat each other maturely. A variety of personalities and intelligences, but all respectful to each other for years now.
      She told me that one of the girls she knows she’s starting to not hang out at school with as much because that girl had gotten bothered at another girl they know and tried to turn everyone against her and they said “no”, I think it was over liking the same boy. I don’t know, there’s a lot more emotional things like that going on and I really don’t like it.

      Thank you for your comment, I like your comments a lot : )

  35. This is really measured, thorough and fair, HG. It also shows that we are not just an undifferentiated mass to you. You might not know or care about us as individuals but neither are we entirely interchangeable, which I find very interesting. You are truly a people person in a very odd way :).

    I can see myself in several groups – including the unpleasant ones – but mostly I believe that I am now a weaponised empath, which was what I wanted to be when I arrived, though I did not know what to call it then. I cannot profess to understand everything and nor have I really been tested, which may mean that I am less secure than I feel, but this rare and unusual source of knowledge that you have provided by allowing us to pick your brain, has made it possible for me to feel normal again, which was my goal.

    I hope that others can learn from my stories and examples, and from whatever advice I can provide, but mostly I stay out of intellectual curiosity and for the fantastic company. You have really managed to gather together here a lot of really smart and interesting people. Not ever blogger can say that.

      1. Aw thanks SP. I didn’t name anyone because there are too many but of course you are part of that fantastic company as well!

        I noticed that you said you are a Taurus. So am I! That’s definitely where our resilience (also known as bullheadedness) comes from. MRN was an Aquarius. Both fixed signs and a terrible combination. I once told him that he was in the world but I was of the world. He floated above everything while I dug in.

        But who cares about him? This post is for us.

        1. What a coincidence, fellow Taurean! I wonder what sign HG is (apart from a warning one).

          1. SP, I am actually surprised there is so little talk of the zodiac on here (I don’t mean the killer). I was almost convinced that MRN and I were so different because of our signs. Would you tell us which one you are, HG?

          2. It can be said HG Tudor is a Killer.

            A Lady Killer.
            Has Killer instinct.
            Slays with with humour.
            Executes with intelligence.
            Assassinates Inaccuracies.
            Annihilates with his unrivalled educating and council those who would dare to compete.

          3. haha. glad there are a few screens between us, HG, though you only think you are a killer.

            Anyway, librarian K swooped in with the Virgo answer ages ago. Don’t know where you were!

          4. I know, I know, you killed someone. My guess is that an ex committed suicide and you were blamed. I came to that conclusion from one of your posts and your comments. From your pov, maybe she was a failed appliance and therefore ‘deserved’ it – I think you also said that. But even if that is not what happened, it is good to keep the possibility in mind. It is the risk one runs manipulating people. You never really know how fragile someone actually is or if they might crack. You especially would not know because you cannot feel what others feel.

          5. Even for part of it, HG, you must admit that it is a fair bit perceptive. If it is something like that, I hope you are working through it and I hope you told SM.

            A good friend’s gf committed suicide right when they were looking for a place for a future retirement. He is very zen (a sensei) and knew that he could not have stopped her but it took a few years and I know the idea that he could have contributed to it still affects him, even though he is now in a healthy relationship.

          6. I mean you have only part of it with regard to the issue of death. You have missed out the largest part, albeit you’re unlikely to have picked up on that as it’s not something I need to keep mentioning.

          7. HG, I don’t know what you mean regarding what big part I missed or what you have mentioned already. But I won’t speculate any further as it doesn’t seem useful. If something I have said is at all helpful, then that is a bonus.

            I have to laugh because I would continuously get into these convoluted discussions with MRN wherein I would only have half the information or hints. But he often said that I was very perceptive anyway.

            This reminds me of a question I had (how not): I figured out the real truth about one of his whopper lies. He didn’t react except to apologize because of course he did not want me to escape. Later on, I asked if he wanted to know how I found out because actually it was really clever and I wanted to tell him :). But he said no and never showed any curiousity. Did he say no because his only objective was to manipulate me? Or did he say no because I had wounded him by finding out the truth?

          8. Okay, okay, HG. I will read/listen. I am seeing comments that you killed more than one person, or maybe you killed one person and were also accused of contributing to the death of one of your exes. Maybe that is why you said that I got part of the picture.

          9. Interesting thread. Thanks a lot for the link K.
            While reading it, it occurred to me that the person who allegedly committed suicide may be a man, not a woman. I know it’s more logical to think it’s a woman and a former IPPS of HG’s, but I just had the thought it could be a man and not a former IPPS of HG’s.

            Well, it is confirmed, Karen did not kill herself. I already had it like that in my mind, although I still think she is probably dead.

          10. I’m listening to your livestream, HG. I heard the bit about killing a few deserving people and how you are not in the military or police. Hmmm. No idea.

            In any case, my favourite question/answer so far: Do you orgasm when you’re with your empath? If we’re doing the shopping, that doesn’t tend to happen. You are mighty patient.

          11. Noticed. We are like kindergarten children sitting in a circle at your feet. It’s highly amusing on some level. Dead serious on another.

          12. Oh I am learning. Have learnt. But I haven’t been tested and unfortunately you, HG, cannot test me. I can say all the right things (most of the right things), but can I do most of the right things? Might never know.

          13. SMH, the hypothesis that Karen committed suicide after her relationship with HG has been mentioned by a number of readers, me included. If this is the case, we don’t know; HG has been very hermetic about it. I also thought he had been blamed for it (by Karen’s family) but not found guilty or judged. I also thought that was the reason he was forced into therapy. It seems it is not, but HG has said he will write about it one day.
            What HG has openly admitted was killing an individual who highly deserved it and in self defense. Also he did it while doing his job, if I recall correctly. If he has killed more than one person, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he did ( through his profession, as he has kind of hinted).

          14. Which part is accurate, HG? Because I also stated that one of your exes committed suicide and you were blamed for it but you made it sound as if I was way off.

            I do remember the conversations about you having killed someone (or maybe two people) because we all speculated that you were in the military or special forces. It seems that where I went wrong was in attributing the ‘deserving’ part to the ex rather than to person or persons you directly killed.

          15. Lou, That all makes sense to me, thanks. It never occured to me until you posted this that we might be talking about several deaths, some that HG directly caused and maybe another indirectly.

          16. Actually, it seems HG has killed more than one person. Just read that using the links K provided.

          17. Lou, Thanks for that info. I will read the links. I did not know that others had speculated about one of HG’s exes committing suicide but I believe HG said at one point that he never expected to hear from Karen again. If the narcissistic relationship is forever unless one person dies, then Karen must have died. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be so certain.

          18. Indeed, SMH, very probably Karen is dead. Maybe she didn’t kill herself, maybe she just died of a broken heart, or just in a stupid accident. Only HG knows. Or maybe not even HG knows.
            But, as one reader said once, he does seem to have kind of a “soft spot” for Karen.

          19. Yeah, Lou, soft spot – clearly something unusual happened with Karen though judging by what K posted (thanks for that thread, K) Karen did not commit suicide. Someone did though and HG was blamed.

          20. Well, yes, maybe soft spot is not the right term in this case, hence the quotation marks. But, as you say, there is something particular about Karen’s story. Or maybe there is nothing and HG is just playing with us. I will stop speculating.

          21. My pleasure SMH and Lou
            If I had to guess, I think Karen is still alive and kicking, however, you may find your answers on The Caretaker threads. Just use keyword: HG Tudor.

          22. Yes, K, I wouldn’t be surprised if Karen was still alive.
            Won’t read threads anymore. I prefer to wait for the book to come out.
            Thanks for all your guidance though, K.

          23. My pleasure Lou!
            Maybe she ended up in a psychiatric hospital. We will just have to wait for: The Asylum of the Grotesque to come out.

          24. Actually, that could be possible, K. HG has said before that people have ended up in a mental hospital (or something along those lines) because of him. Maybe that’s why he won’t be able to Hoover her anymore.
            But I am speculating again and I sayI was done with that! 😉

          25. Yikes K and Lou. I have seen people destroyed by one relationship. But while MRN was definitely a struggle, in general I am quite resilient. I guess it might be different if I were entangled with a Greater – I could see falling to pieces or dying from a broken heart, which apparently really happens.

          26. Indeed, SMH, I have read that it is possible to die from a broken heart.

            HG, is Karen still alive?

          27. Yes, it was in a straight jacket (I had the image of the jacket but not the term).
            I wonder who ended up like that.
            Thanks again K.

          28. Lou, K and SMH

            I have seen first hand what a UGN can do to a person.
            He took my mother from a vibrant woman to someone that couldn’t function, destroying her mind. She did recover to a point, she functions, period.

            This was my mother, so many here should not assume I support narcissism.
            I understand HG better then many here do. I was raised by one such as he. I may not have been able to understand many things, he did thou teach me how to survive in a world I didn’t belong in. My mentor taught me how to heal those harmed by them.

          29. I am of the opinion that any narcissist, of any school, is able to abuse someone because of the hooks they create with the victim, which are promises (both spoken and unspoken) to meet the other person’s unmet needs and desires. The bigger the unmet needs of a person, the more tolerated and harmful the abuse will be. Of course, there are other factors, like having been raised by a narcissist and regarding a treatment as normal. As I said, there are other factors.
            Greaters can create bigger hooks because they have more resources (money, charm, social status). If the victim is very needy, they will inflict a lot of harm, yes. We all have unmet needs, even normals. Anyone can fall prey of a greater because they may be alluring to most human beings. However, not anyone can be destroyed by a greater, in my opinion, and this has to do with the level of emotional, financial and social independence/dependence of the “victim”. In my opinion.

          30. K, I always thought those sorts of comments were HG’s hyperbole. But maybe not!

          31. HG, this conversation has reminded me of one of your ex girlfriends, whose name I cannot remember now, but she is in one of your books. She had her own apartment and I believe she stopped talking to you. You sneaked into her apartment and found her singing and cooking. Then you pulled her back in the relationship with you with a pity game.
            Is she going to be in Asylum of the Grotesque?
            I would like to read more about her.

          32. Great. What’s her name? I like her, but I don’t think you have written much about her.

          33. K, Karen is the one who wouldn’t eat unless HG had, correct? I’m surprised she did not starve to death :).

          34. But you said you were an Aries, remember? Yes, I’m pretty sure. It’s OK if you changed your mind we all know you can be indecisive but you said Aries… 😉

          35. HG, I know you didn’t. I was trying to imitate gaslighting but it is obvious I’m awful at it -fortunately-.

          36. Indeed you are SP and do you know why that is?

            1. You do not need to manipulate to survive and thrive.
            2. Thus, you are not practised at it nor do is it come to you instinctively.

          37. Aww, that was beautiful. I take it as a compliment, thank you, HG.

          38. Sweetest Perfection

            HG has always stated he was a Virgo, it made me extremely uneasy when I found out long ago…..to many similarities between HG and Jon. Both Greaters, ability to convey and understand themselves and both being Virgos. I told HG he better not have the same birthday or all bets are off and I am outta here. It was hearing HGs voice that told me for definite he wasn’t Jon.

          39. Virgos and Taurus get along perfectly well. Just sayin’. But I knew that already, we have music tastes and readings in common.

          40. Oh yes, I always got on quite well with Virgos. But I would have thought that HG would be a Leo, King of the Jungle 🙂

          41. SMH, I had the same thought, always the spotlight 🦁

          42. I am a Leo that missed the Virgo cutoff. Not that I care about astrology, but I rather like having a sign associated with lions.

          43. I don’t really care, either, Bibi, though I do think there is something to it. As a bull, I am generally placid like Ferdinand but I also know what I am capable of. I fell in love with bullfights in my youth after reading Hemingway’s Death in the Afternoon, and always rooted for the bull. I love seeing matadors gashed (kidding).

          44. Most people do, SP. I have never experienced anything quite like bullfights, but don’t know if I could stomach one now.

          45. I have. And I always cried for the bull. I don’t even kill mosquitos! My husband gets mad at the fact I take ants outside and irremediably they keep coming back in, haha.

          46. Hahaha, SP. I have a friend like you who will not kill an insect either. But she is horrible to people. lol. Not saying that about you, of course.

          47. SMH, hahaha there are many people like that but I’m not horrible to people I promise! Just a little “too sensitive” sometimes or so I heard.

          48. SP, No worries. I don’t think you are horrible to people. It’s just that this friend, my oh my, the rest of us are always making jokes about how she wouldn’t hurt a fly, but…watch out!

          49. SMH, my narc is a Taurus too, which of course was used by him as one more coincidence “-omg-we-are the-same! -soulmates!”- BS.

          50. That’s interesting, SP. As far as I know, I have never been romantically involved with another Taurus. I don’t think I would be able to stand it. lol. Matrinarc is a Taurus too. When I was pregnant I was hoping for a boy who wouldn’t be born under my sign. Luckily, both things came true.

          51. SMH, I don’t really believe much of what is said about signs and their personalities because, for being Taureans for example, you and I love to travel and to change, which doesn’t go with the idea of stability and fixation the bull seeks. But they are described also as lovers of physical pleasures, arts, resolute and hardworking, passionate, and faithful and loyal friends. I’m content with that… the narc and I certainly have a very hedonistic side and love the arts, we went to several museums together and we love to read and share music. Everything seemed good until he showed his cold side, which caught me totally by surprise. I’m not saying anything about any signs here because I don’t want to offend anyone, but in my opinion, Taureans have good personality traits. Of course, if the person is a narcissist, forget about the “good” in “personality traits.”

          52. SP, I actually think of myself as a homebody and as lazy! The rest of it is true – I am especially hedonistic, though there are certain things I do not care much about, such as food (I do not over-indulge and really couldn’t care less what I eat). I think a lot of signs have very good traits but yes, narcissism layered on top of any sign would produce something very unpleasant.

          53. SMH, I’m not lazy but I always say that my aspiration in life -if I didn’t have to work, let’s say, if I were a millionaire- is just “il dolce far niente.” And I don’t have any Puritan guilt about not working. When I am on vacation, most people in the US ask: what are you gonna do when you travel to…? And I always answer: nothing! That’s the fucking point! I’m not a big eater, but I have yo eat the best, and I like to drink good wine. I asked HG about the Greek Cabernet he posted on IG. HG, how was it?

          54. SP,

            I actually don’t really have to work – I don’t need a lot – but I love what I do and I’d be bored. I might be lazy but my mind is always going. I don’t plan or take vacations but I travel enough to see the world and grab a few days here and there. This summer I am going somewhere for work where I have never been and no one I know has been either.

            When I told MRN that I could quit tomorrow and be fine, the look on his face was priceless. And then he tried to match me – well, I don’t have to work either (but all his ‘dependents’ made it necessary).

            While I appreciate a good meal/glass of wine, I don’t seek them out. I wait for my rich friends and relatives to invite me! (Haha only half kidding – I got three days on a yacht last summer.)

          55. Sweetest Perfection
            Ha ha ha…”A” for effort, regarding your attempt to gaslight HG.

          56. Thank you, K! But I am actually pretty happy I failed the test on how to be a manipulative bitch! 😇

          57. My pleasure, Sweetest Perfection!
            Ha ha ha…you have earned a Gold Star for your Empath Halo.

          58. While I’m glad to know that Karen didn’t commit suicide, I don’t think that ending up in a straight jacket is any better.

            But I have my own theories:
            1. I think that Karen’s fate was one of the reasons why H.G. screens his IPPS and avoids to have relationships with the the ones who might not survive his devaluation.

            2. I think that Karen had a mental and/or health breakdown which had people who care for her intervene to take her away from HG despite her unwillingness to leave him.

            3. And I think that she is ok now and living a normal and happy life away from HG but HG has made a decision to not hoover her because the fuel that he will get from it is not worth the risk of destroying her or triggering another mental breakdown. He’s not doing it out of empathy but out of a logical point of view.

          59. Indeed it is very interesting, Mommypino. You have a different way of thinking about things.

          60. I like MP’s analysis too. However, I was thinking this morning (speculating again!) that, since HG writes at the end of “Here Comes the Rain Again” that Karen knew what the rain did to him, that she understood, maybe she escaped him, and now her No Contact is so robust, he cannot hoover her.
            Hmmm, I think I may have read too many of HG’s narc tales.
            But, who knows?

          61. SMH, MP does have a different way of thinking about things. She always comes up with some interesting twist nobody else thinks of. That’s why I think she’s narc-bait for her perceptions : )

          62. I think I must be narc bait too, Nunya Biz, but my way of seeing things is not nearly as interesting as MP’s!

        2. I am just being preemptive here:

          HG Tudor
          OCTOBER 4, 2017 AT 14:06
          Hi Sniglet, no I did not apologise. The subjects deserved what happened and I did humanity a considerable favour. I don’t have the exact time it was mentioned in the live stream to hand and would need to listen through it to find it. Much as I like to hear myself speak I do not have the time so you will have to dig it out. It is contained in the live stream from July (the earlier one) which is in two parts and is in the second part if I recall correctly.

          1. Haha K. I decided to drop it but maybe I will listen to this at some point. Thank you!

    1. “It also shows that we are not just an undifferentiated mass to you. You might not know or care about us as individuals but neither are we entirely interchangeable, which I find very interesting. You are truly a people person in a very odd way :).”

      I second that SMH.

  36. No crossover between groups? I feel like I belong, in some way, or have belonged at one stage of my ill-fated odyssey, to each of the groups mentioned (save the Narcissists and the Unwitting Narcissists).Does that then make for yet another group? Burned, vengeful, desperate to understand everything, obsessed and stockpiling ammo while still dumb, and hopelessly deluded…

      1. NarcAngel
        I’ve never really been a group person, more of a loner. I appreciate the value of solitude vey much. The reason I am here is to increase my understanding of the narcissistic/psychopathic mindset in order to increase my overall understanding of how the world works and the general human condition. Psychology fascinates me, of all types of people. I have never had any type of a relationship with a narcissist, so have no personal experience to share. I am simply a seeker of truth and that’s what drives me. I get pleasure from fitting together this big puzzle known as life and how it works. I am simply wanting to fit a few more pieces into the jigsaw to flesh out the details.

        1. Evilmuskhat
          Thank you for offering a little bit about yourself and your reason for being here. You can imagine that when someone shows up using a serial killer as their avatar and saying he is their favourite, that it can raise questions, and possibly reluctance in others about interacting with that person.

    1. Because you are special, Ted! Sorry couldn’t resist the contrarian lure. Perhaps, you are suffering from terminal uniqueness!

    2. HG, This is really good. You write about the empath often but aside from interactions through comments you haven’t written much information about your readers. I enjoyed your perspective alot. I know you told Getting There that we don’t jump from category to category daily but I feel like I’ve been in most of these categories at some point in my learning and recovery. Is this possible?

    3. That’s because you’ve had 2K volts of electricity course throughout your body, Ted. Anyone would feel left out afterwards.

      1. Bibi, Claire and FM1T, Thanks for my first laugh of the morning. I forgot to say that I stay here for the humour too.

        Evil, it looks like muskhat love!

        1. SMH, glad to have been of service. I love this blog for the same reasons!

          HG is damn Great(er), but we are damn funny!

          1. We are funny, Bibi. Whenever I need a little afternoon pick me up, I substitute this blog for MRN and have a laugh instead of a squeeze.

    4. Evil, Perhaps you just have a man crush on HG? Lol. I’m just teasing you! You are here and maybe for now that is important enough? As time goes by you will see the group or groups that you belong to. 😉🙃

  37. Unless a reader says “I am a narcissist,” I question whether I will ever be able to identify a commentator in that grouping.
    Can we go from one group to another and then back on a daily basis?

      1. Thank you for that clarification, HG!
        Approximately how many comments from a commentator do you need to see before you know to which grouping they belong?

          1. Thank you, HG!
            I understand that content says a lot. While someone may say “I am a narcissist,” they may not actually be in that grouping which would come out in the comments.

            Personally I think it is hard for me to narrow down to one group as I have been on and off the merry-go- round multiple times since finding you and commenting.

          2. Are you ever completely surprised by shifts in comments from what you initially perceived?

          3. Have you ever been nearly certain a person is an empath/a narcissist only to have a moment of clarity later? I sure have although I know I don’t know all that you do. Not only here—but in your life? I was very surprised by my empath detector results because I’m such an ass.. But here yes.. Surprises for you on occasion?

          4. I don’t get it—you only see what you are shown or what is told to you. Red flags aren’t always red—shades of pink maybe.. I’m back on the narcissism remedial program.

          5. Claire, I just saw your comments today which is funny because I was wondering something similar today about HG possibly being misled (intentionally or not) regarding a commentator or in an empath consultation as he is given only what that person shows. What made me think of it is that if someone came to this site, that person may think I am a narcissist based on my interactions with them. They can present it to HG based on their perception. Then would he agree with them that I am a narcissist based on the information they provide?

          6. 1. The empath consultation has been formulated to reject second-guessing. It is subtle and nuanced. You cannot guess the answers to form a view.
            2. I seek facts for the Narc Detector Consultation, not perceptions for example someone may write ‘he triangulates me’ – that does not assist me, instead I seek facts such as ‘he is always comparing me to other women’ (that is triangulation). I regularly do this in consultation also, by pointing out that people are just giving me perceptions (I am the one doing the assessment, not them) and therefore I need evidence and facts, not their assessment.

          7. Thank you for explaining, HG!
            My original thought was after I was dealing with a situation where someone has a perception of me. Although the ones who know understand my intentions, but I will admit my actions are not always calm, cool, and collective. That led to my thoughts on how we see ourselves versus how others see us.
            Thank you for sharing that, regardless of how those two are, you have figured out how to eliminate the noise!

      2. Not on a daily basis, but can we change groups during our journey of learning here even though not on a daily basis but more as part of our evolution while we are acquiring more knowledge here?

        1. Thank you for honouring us with this article HG.

          I feel ‘forever on the up’. ‘Weaponised’ as a word doesn’t resonate with me. I am aware, but not at war (I hope).

        2. Hi, mommypino.
          HG did confirm in a comment above that we can evolve.
          I feel like I ping pong, and at many times daily, between groups. I have a narcissist ex husband I maintain constant contact with; I am on and off communicating with the one that I got involved with next; I am constantly connecting with narcissists in other areas of my life. I come to this site or contact HG a lot so I assume that my comments are as ping pong as I feel.
          I do feel bad that I caused so much confusion using “daily.” I’m sorry!

          1. Oh no Getting There, don’t feel bad. I totally understand you as I also sometimes change a lot. And I feel that it depends on where we are in our healing process. It is definitely challenging for you because you are forced to stay in contact with various narcs in your life so I can totally understand the ping pong feeling as they can really affect our moods drastically especially with the roller coaster experience that we normally have shared with them in the past when we were in the thick of the dynamic. Thank you for adding the clarification though because your explanation made perfect sense.

          2. Mommypino, I forgot to ask: how was Disneyland with your family? I hope it was drama free and just full of happy moments!

          3. Hi Getting There, sorry I didn’t see your question until just now. I am not getting notifications and I only see replies because I subscribed to all of the comments but I still miss a lot when I get too many comments in my inbox and not able to see the ones directed to me. The trip to Disneyland was awesome. It was a lot of walking so we were all exhausted. But the kids loved it. They especially loved the water show at night and the fireworks. They really thought that the Princess Anna that they met is a real princess. They were star-stricken with all of the mascots there. It was so fun. We didn’t buy anything from the stores because everything was overpriced. It makes me think though (because now I always think about empaths and narcissists) that Walt Disney must have been an empath. He was of course not a perfect person but I believe that a lot of his achievements were driven by his desire to make people happy and to enrich children’s sense of wonder. I think that he was a very important empath. 😊

          4. I understand, mommypino. Although I request notification of other comments when I comment, I don’t receive notifications so I have to try to remember what I commented on. I forget a lot of the titles, so there are some I will not know. I feel bad but don’t know how to fix it.
            That’s great that you and your family had a great time at Disneyland! That’s cute about them being star struck with the characters!
            I have conflicting feelings regarding Disney. I like that he wanted to bring happiness and joy to all during war and times of peace. My issue is the concept of creating a thought of happy- ever- after that doesn’t exist. He took stories that taught harsh reality lessons and changed them to bring hope that everything works out in the end. I wonder how many false hopes were built up; and yet how much did he inspire when life offered no other inspiration.

          5. Getting There, That is a great point that you brought up. I think that Walt Disney had a lot of the ‘sins of the empath’ articles that H.G. wrote about here. He was an eternal optimist. I think that a lot of it had to do with his past. Although there are no articles written about his father to be able to say that he was a narcissist, accounts say that he was very stern, cold and harsh to Walt. In fact they said that Walt Disney may have subconsciously become the opposite of his dad as a form of defiance. He was very involved, playful and loving to his kids and he said that his dad was the opposite and he just wanted to spoil his kids. His kids love him. His dad discouraged him from his interest in drawing. He had a difficult time when he was starting his business and ended up being homeless and starving at one point, even looking for food from the trash. And then he eventually became a business magnate and a world legend. He had to have an amazing amount of tenacity and optimism to be able to keep pushing himself to achieve his dreams despite all of the obstacles. And it does reflect in a lot of his movies. I know the Mary Poppins has some controversy about him changing it and Disneyfying it. I think that he just couldn’t help himself. It is who he is and he always had to leave his signature on all of his movies so it was inevitable that it will be like that once the author agreed to have Disney make a movie out of her book. I agree that he was extreme and to a fault. He was definitely full of E.T..

          6. Getting There, I also think that P. L. Travers May have been a narcissist. She had the lack of control environment with her dad. She was very difficult and manipulative and controlling to Disney when they were trying to do the Mary Poppins movie. She was very difficult and I wonder if that was to gain fuel. She was deeply wounded by Walt Disney though. She tried to control everything about the movie (because narcs always want to be in control) but then Disney added the animated penguins which she didn’t agree too. When she brought up to him her disapproval after watching it in the movie premier he just told her, “that ship has already sailed.” They said that Disney tricked her by only giving her rights to control the script but she didn’t have film editing rights. Disney didn’t even formally invite her to the premiere which would have cause wounding but she attended anyway (entitlement). She was also sexually ambiguous. She also didn’t have empathy which was most shown with the way she treated her adopted son who had a twin but she lied to him about his origins and they had a very strained relationship.

          7. Hello, mommypino. I had to look her up to see more information about her. Thank you for inspiring me to learn more!
            What I read about her, I do wonder if she was a narcissist. She was supposed to take the twins and then followed advice given to her to only take the oldest, supposedly. How can one agree to take both and then split them up? I struggle with the idea of splitting up siblings regardless, much less after one agrees to take more than one. My struggle with her, though, is that she was into animals and it was supposedly the song “Feed the Birds” which got to her (not the one the movie said). That song is just beautiful!
            What I read, though, about Disney and her makes me not thrilled with Disney either. He tricked her knowing she wouldn’t like his animated characters. He “punished” her for being difficult by not inviting her to the premiere of the movie of her own book. He changed quite a bit to match his dream versus that of her book. I can understand her not happiness based on what it seems the book was characterized off of – people in her life. Mary Poppins was supposedly based on an aunt who came to help her and her family when she was young because her dad died when she was 7, they moved from comfortable to poor, and then her mom announced that she was going to kill herself and then tried unsuccessfully. Aunts, specifically that one, stepped up to help put order in her life. She originally told the story of Mary Poppins to kids and they liked it so much she made it a book. The book was her baby and based on important people in her life. Disney didn’t care and made whatever changes he wanted. During those 20 years of negotiation, he should have realized the disconnect between her baby and his dream. His intentions were good as it was based on a promise to his daughters. It sounds like his typical of making everything turn sunshiny and happy- ever- after, which can be good to give hope where others may have no hope. However, this story was such a part of her.
            This reminds me of “Sound of Music” and how the real Maria was tricked with the making of that movie. It would be different if they were up front and fair to allow the other person to agree to all the terms.
            Interestingly, I still like both movies.

          8. Hi Getting There, I love the points that you raised about both Travers and Disney. It did show ruthlessness from Disney. The stories that I have read were vague as to how Disney tricked her. It does seem like he didn’t lie to her, he just didn’t inform her that in order to have full control of the film which is what she wanted, she also needed film editing rights. Either way it was still very sneaky to not disclose that because as you said that with all of those years they were negotiating he should have known that it is what she wanted. You are right; he didn’t fight fairly. He didn’t want to give up on delivering his promise to his kids to make a movie out of the book that they love but at the same time he wasn’t willing to make a sacrifice of changing the style of this particular movie to suit what the author wanted and not to be the typical Disney movies which she hated. I am still inclined to think that she was a Mid-Ranger because of all the things I have read about her. She consulted an astrologer in which boy out of the twins would be good to adopt and returned the boy that was not favored by the astrologer. I think it was almost like buying an appliance for her and looking at consumer reports on which brand would be better. My MRE sister was a dog lover and it was a huge part of her facade. Regarding Disney, I still think that he was an empath because he had so much of the traits that HG writes about empaths. But he was definitely not a saint. A lot of people described him as a good person but he seems to have a lot of narcissistic traits especially as a businessman. Thank you for pointing out those things as it gave me a bigger perspective. I agree with you that he wasn’t fair to Travers.

          9. Your insight is great, mommypino! I like your analysis and it makes me dig deeper in my thoughts!
            I agree that she must have been a MRN. I assumed that narcissists can have a facade of loving animals but not really. Both of mine seemed to like animals but they also liked their furniture in the same way. I assumed, incorrectly until you shared, that that is how they are. I even have a friend who I have come to realize I can’t trust; another friend of hers who is much more close to her has warned me to not trust her and be careful. I wondered if she was a narcissist based on certain things but then thought “no, she can’t be as she loves all animals and shows through her actions her love for animals. A narcissist wouldn’t do that.”
            I really like your analysis also of Disney. While I may not appreciate his handling of this situation, his imagination and creativity was all based on “love and good wins” (definition of “love” a separate issue) and just hope and joy exist. I wonder if he could have been a Super Empath. I wonder also if he could be a normal. I struggle with the characteristics of that group.

          10. Thank you Getting There, I love talking to you because you are so open-minded and you give me different perspectives so I can see the bigger picture. You have great insight and your strong moral compass shows in the way you look at things.

            To be quite honest, I struggle with understanding the empathic schools and even the Normals. If I remember correctly, I have read that what separates the Super Empath from an Empath is not which type of traits but the concentration of those traits. I don’t understand it. For myself, the concentration of each trait is affected by a lot of factors including my age, the environment and even the literature that I read.

            I personally feel sure that Walt Disney was an empath and not normal. I do not know for sure what kind of Empath he was. The reason that I think makes him an empath is because most people (and I think most people are Normals) would not have the tenacity that he had. They would have already given up if they encountered the failures that he had when he was starting. But he was definitely not saintly and not as pure as Mr. Rogers. I don’t think that Mr. Rogers was abused. He was isolated because of his introversion and health issues but his parents loved him and especially his mother who handmade his famous sweaters. He had isolation but not trauma. Disney was not as pure as Mr. Rogers. His dad was very cold and stern to him. From what I have read, his mother was not much of a parent to him either because she had a broken spirit from the way their father was to them. They said that Disney was always lonely as a kid and he often hugged their farm animals for companionship. Disney was very much into animals and he loved drawing them. His dad was very strict with the way Disney had to do the paper routes and he was very particular with how Disney was supposed to do it. He also did corporal punishment to Disney so Disney May have also been physically abused. There were written stories where Disney acted the same way to his employees at a certain point of his life. He insulted them, even his brother who worked for him, in front of others. Then when he became really successful, his employees say that he was really nice to them. There was a worker who said that Travers insulted the creative team so much while they were working on Mary Poppins and Disney didn’t like the way she treated his employees which is a complete flip of his previous attitude as a boss when he was younger and not yet successful. It also sounded like Disney had a lot of inner demons. There are stories where he went through deep depression and anxiety at one point of his life which is so opposite of the amazingly confident and big personality that we saw when he was already famous. I think that his childhood played a big part in his inner demons and he went through struggles in life coping with it. I also have a feeling that Travers’ negativity may have reminded him of his dad’s. But I struggle to figure out if he was a Standard or Super Empath. I will hold on until I understand more about those schools.

          11. Hello, mommypino. I hope you are having a great weekend! Thank you so much for the compliments! You are very sweet! I always enjoy our conversations as well! You have a way of helping me see things I didn’t and you are always so positive. I’m thankful that you are here, and I have the opportunity to share thoughts with you (although I am sorry that you are here because of your life experiences)!

            That’s sad about Disney and his growing up years! I can’t imagine what that was like and am impressed that he cared so much about his children and all children without having a role model. I wonder if his behavior in the early years was a display of fear and concern of failure to meet his dreams, a lot of stress to try to overcome how he was viewed by his dad. Then when his dreams were met, he could be himself and the stress level subsided. Do you know how his brother turned out? That must have been hard to grow up with a father like that and then your brother acting like he was.
            I love Mr. Rogers! I wonder what kind of empath he is; probably a savior one. I need to find a man like him. LOL. I had a friend a long time ago who said she was on his set once and that he was not nice to some on the set. I have never heard that anywhere else and looking back she had a lot of narcissistic traits. Could she really have tried to smear Mr. Rogers?! I want to watch that documentary made about him but I keep forgetting to when I have the time.

            I also struggle with the differences of empaths. I don’t know the difference between Super Empath and Standard. I thought one displayed more narcissistic traits but not sure how that would be different than a normal. Codependent I understand. I get the difference between Savior, Carrier, Contagion, and Magnet (I think). I also struggle between Cerebral and Elite. Both of mine seemed to be Cerebral but then again they work out but not rat-gym style. Does keeping healthy equal Elite?

          12. I forgot to add, mommypino, that your compassion, your great heart, your openness, and you being real about things comes through in all your comments.
            (Sorry that wasn’t included in my previous message.)

          13. Mommypino, I am sorry! My comments came off disjointed and definitely didn’t relay what I wanted. I get in a different mode when complimented, and i
            need to learn it is ok to not respond until I am ready. You are an awesome person and that comes across in your comments, whether to me or to others or in general. You have a great heart, positive, and bring up interesting thoughts, and show that you would be an amazing person to know in non-blog life.

          14. Hi Getting There, you’re too kind. I really appreciate your kind words. You are so sweet. It would be really amazing to know in real life too!! I want to write a longer response to you this evening about Disney’s brother. He was an awesome guy too but I think he was the Golden child and Disney was the scapegoat. He was the practical one, the accountant, that their dad preferred and their dad didn’t like how Disney’s Head is always in the clouds. Thank you again Getting There for your kind and generous words. Nothing to apologize, you are too kind to me. I hope that your day is wonderful!! 😘😘😘

          15. Hi Getting There, so sorry for my slow responses. Been really busy with yard work lately before my husband’s grand niece visits here for a couple of weeks. We have over 4 acres so I have been doing a lot of weed whacking and raking. It’s a great exercise though.

            About your question about Disney’s brother, he was like Walt Disney’s best friend for life. He was opposite of Walt. Roy was introverted and Walt was extroverted. Walt Disney was a creative genius but he went bankrupt when he first started his business because he sucked in the financial aspects of the business. A lot of people took advantage of Walt Disney and didn’t pay him for his work. Disney also tended to overspend on the creative side because he was pursuing the best product but he didn’t even charge enough for the cost to be covered. When he went bankrupt, that was when he became homeless and starved. Roy was recovering from tuberculosis when Walt Disney recruited him to join him at starting another cartoon business. Roy helped him finance it and he was he bookkeeper/cameraman of the company. He straightened up the company’s finances. When Walt Disney died, the Disney company also almost died because all of a sudden they didn’t have a leader. Walt Disney World was also not yet finished. Roy decided to postpone his retirement to make sure that Disney World will be finished according to what his younger brother envisioned it to become. Disney World was finished faithful to how Walt would have wanted it and Roy retired. But unfortunately he died only two months after that. He really made a personal sacrifice to honor his brother.

            I love Mr. Rogers too! I didn’t grow up with his show as it wasn’t shown in the Philippines but I discovered it now through my two kids. They both love the show and we watch it together. I also notice my kids always start talking in a calm manner right after watching the show like they were subconsciously imitating the way Mr. Rogers talk. I think that you are spot on when you said that he’s a Saviour Empath. I love the little anecdote from him where he said that when he was young and there was a catastrophe on the air he was scared and his mother told him that to not be scared he should always look for the helpers. She said that when there is something tragic or bad that happened there will always be helpers on the sidelines. So he said that it would be better if when there is a tragedy or a catastrophe in the news, that the news would show the helpers like the rescuers etc. And I think that a lot of news outfits have been following that now. He said that it’s because as long as there are helpers there is hope. So he totally sounded like a Saviour Empath. I think that you are totally right on! 😊

          16. Hello, mommypino.
            How was (or is) the visit? That’s a good size property! It must be great for your children to run and play. The arm strength you must have, though, with doing the yard work!

            Thank you for sharing that information! I had no idea Disney’s brother was like that. What a good guy to do what he could to help his brother’s dream regardless of what it could cost him! That kind of love to sacrifice your security or plans for your sibling is amazing! I wonder what helped them in their development like that in spite of their father; or maybe it is because of their father (the idea of learning how to be by seeing how you don’t want to be).

            That’s great that your children love watching Mr. Roger’s and then talk calmly like he does! He brought so much good and understanding that needed to occur. I wish he were here now for the new generation. I watched Daniel Tiger with my son a few times and it just wasn’t the same. I really like the comment about helpers! It is true that there is such hope when you can see the compassion come out with helping others. One thing I have learned is that you may not be able to fix or heal the main issue (and may put yourself at risk); however, when people know that someone is willing to do what little can be done or just shows that someone is there for them (maybe when no one else is) and cares, that brings such comfort, hope, and love.

Vent Your Spleen!

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