No Contact? No, Its Not! Part One
No contact is the Holy Grail. It is a state of affairs, a place of being and the absolute answer to any and all ensnarement with our kind. You must strive for it, impose it and maintain it.
Yet, so many claim they have achieved this nirvana but they have not done so. Many assert they have implemented a no contact regime and then ask – why am I still being hoovered through his telephone calls? Others state that they are applying no contact but the narcissist keeps coming over to talk to them and they feel helpless to stop this and want to know why this keeps happening.
It is because it is not no contact.
This may seem obvious to some of you reading but do understand that the regularity by which I encounter such observations and questions demonstrates two matters very clearly :-
- A large number of people do not truly understand what no contact really is ; and
- Emotional thinking and its power over people causes them to allow holes in their no contact defence so that is actually does not become a no contact defence at all or even anything close.
With regard to the first point, I understand how this comes about. In part it is because a number of commentators who advocate no contact do not understand themselves what it really means. They also do not understand our kind and therefore if they do not understand narcissists, how can they then advise victims effectively with regard to no contact (and so much more as it happens with regards to the narcissistic dynamic)? They fail to realise how we attack no contact, they fail to realise how no contact is so much more than just staying away from a physical interaction with the narcissist. Of course, some of these commentators have no actual experience with regard to our kind and therefore they have no position of expertise, furthermore, some have had the interaction but they are falling prey to their own emotional thinking which means that they fail to advocate the proper and total no contact regime and/or they ‘allow’ certain forms of interaction not realising this breaches no contact and/or they regard it as permissible and without actual consequence. No contact is a serious matter. It is THE solution to the problem of ensnarement with our kind and must be addressed properly and resolutely and the only way of doing this is accord with what I explain to you and to apply it completely. Nobody else is capable of giving you the absolute correct and proper information to ensure you are protected and able to march towards recovery with due expedience.
So, let us examine various situations which are common with regard to victims and their attempts to implement no contact. This series will embrace a wide range of scenarios thus enabling you to realise that you are in fact breaching no contact (and you may be surprised to realise that you were) and moreover what the consequences of such a breach are (whether you knew it was a breach or not).
Let’s begin with physical interaction with the narcissist and by that I am referring to a direct physical interaction whereby you and the narcissist are in the same space.
- Physical interaction
Most people at least recognise that physical interaction with the narcissist is breaching no contact. However, there are still a number who seek to split hairs when it comes to a physical interaction with the narcissist and of course that is being driven by emotional thinking which will con a victim into thinking that the interaction is somehow ‘okay’ or is not a ‘real breach’ of no contact. It is not okay and yes, it is a real breach of no contact.
The First Golden Rule of Freedom is the most important one. It is also the easiest one to remember, the easiest one to test your behaviour against but often hard to implement (because of emotional thinking wanting to feed your addiction to the narcissist by making you engage with us further). This rule is ‘Once you know, you go – you get out and you stay out.’
Thus, you must consider your proposed behaviour and if it offends this rule then your proposed behaviour must not be executed and anything which tells you that you should, tries to tell you to ignore this rule, tries to suggest it is somehow permissible to offend this rule is a product of emotional thinking. It is not acceptable, it is not permissible, it is not an exception, a loop-hole, a merited deviation – it is emotional thinking. Pure and simple.
Accordingly, if you find yourself thinking (or worse doing) something whereby you will physically interact with the narcissist or you are physically interacting with the narcissist then you are breaching the rule, you are being controlled by emotional thinking and you must not do it and/or you must halt the interaction.
If you are intermittently spending time with the narcissist in some way, even if this is vastly reduced from the amount of time which you used to spend, this is not no contact. You are entering the narcissist’s sphere of influence, this causes a Hoover Trigger and therefore there is a risk that a hoover (if the Hoover Execution Criteria (“HEC”) are met) will follow. You may think that it is obvious that a hoover will occur if you are in the same physical space as the narcissist but it is not a given. Yes, it often happens (after all – why would we reject such an easy opportunity to gather fuel from you) but there are instances where even if you come to speak to us, let’s say at a social gathering and thus you cause a Hoover Trigger, we will not execute the hoover (i.e. we will either walk away or remain and just ignore you) and thus there is no hoover. Any same space physical interaction with us breaches no contact. If you approach us to speak to us, even though you feel you are in control, you are breaching no contact. You are not in control however since you are breaching the first golden rule of freedom and thus you are being governed by your emotional thinking by approaching us.
If you are ‘ambushed’ by the narcissist. For instance, you are walking down the road and you turn the corner and the narcissist is in front of you or if the narcissist turns up unexpectedly at a corner, then no contact is also breached. If your emotional thinking has been lowered by a sustained period of total no contact, then you are highly likely to apply logic which is ‘Get Out, Stay Out’ and in the instance of being ambushed, you will actually just walk away as quickly as possible or if cornered you will ignore the narcissist and feel no problem at all in doing so. Any discomfort at such a response arises from your emotional thinking remaining high. It will be trying to corrupt your empathic trait of guilt into speaking to us or corrupting your empathic trait of decency, again to be polite to us. When you have your emotional thinking low and under control, you will respond with logic and that logic will mean you feel no guilt at ignoring us. It means you feel no compulsion to speak to us on the basis of being pleasant and civil. You will be cold, you will ignore us and thus you will wound us (which incidentally acts to raise the hoover bar making a future hoover less likely for a period of time). Thus, if you think it is acceptable to respond to the narcissist because he has ambushed you, this is a breach of no contact and therefore must not be done. It is not a case of it ‘not counting’ because he ambushed you as opposed to you approached the narcissist.
If you physically meet with the narcissist when handing over children as part of co-parenting, you are breaching no contact. You ought to look at utilising gate keepers (third parties) or if the children are old enough you can drop them at the garden gate and wait to ensure they go inside the narcissist’s house so you know they have arrived safely. There are a variety of different ways of effecting co-parenting without the necessity of any actual physical interaction with the narcissist parent. Whilst you may think that it is better that you are civil to one another, remember, you are dealing with a narcissist and if you have that physical interaction, even if it is ten minutes’ civil discussion then
a. You will be providing fuel – the narcissist is getting what he or she wants;
b. Owing to our black and white thinking you run the risk of being subjected to some form of unpleasant/abusive hoover; and
c. You are increasing your Emotional Thinking by having this engagement. The increase in your E.T. could result in a loss of insight with the consequential issues which arise from that.
Other common instances that arise where people believe they need to have some form of physical interaction with the narcissist include :-
- “I need to deal with the narcissist because I am owed money by the narcissist” – No, you do not need to deal with the narcissist – get a third party to recover the money, go to law (often you have to anyway) or write it off;
- “I need to recover property from the narcissist/return property” – No, you do not need to deal with the narcissist to address this. Again, involve a third party, go to law, forget about the property, post it back to the narcissist, have someone else return it etc
- “I need answers from the narcissist so I can gain closure.” – No you do not. You will not get the answers, you will not get closure. I will give you the answers and you make your own closure – we will not grant it to you because that runs contrary to our interests
- “I need to tell the narcissist what a bastard he or she is.” – No, you do not. You are just giving challenge fuel, heightening your own emotional thinking and kicking the hornet’s nest. “But it feels good doing this, I have wounded him” I hear you retort. No, you have not wounded the narcissist, you gave fuel. Yes, he may well have responded angrily but that was not the result of wounding, that was the need for him to respond to put down your act of rebellion by challenging him. Yes, you may well feel good, feel better for tearing a strip off the narcissist but it ultimately acts against you – your ET has risen you have provided fuel and you run the risk of malign hoovers in response. It feels good because this is your ET conning you into doing it again and again and again to feed your addiction to the narcissist and this is not in your best interests. Apply the First Golden Rule of Freedom and you will see how you are breaching it.
- “The sex is really good and I may as well get something out of it. I do not want anything more than the sex.” No, you may not as well get something out of it. Yes the sex may well be exceedingly good (it often is with our kind) but the thought process is flawed and the pleasure you get from engaging in repeated sexual engagement with the narcissist is dangerous. You are giving us what we want – fuel, you are feeding your addiction and maintaining your emotional thinking, you are exposing yourself to the potential for devaluation. You may think you have the upper hand, you may think you are ‘using’ the narcissist but this is emotional thinking at work again. It is utilising your narcissistic sense of pride to make you think that it is good to extract something from the narcissist. It is corrupting your empathic trait of justice making you think that you are getting your own back on us. You are not – you are offending the First Golden Rule of Freedom. I do not care if you think you have control – you do not (the fact you think you have control and ignoring the First Golden Rule of Freedom confirms you do not have control because you are being led by your emotional thinking). The risk to you is that your repeated engagement (which increases your emotional thinking) will cause you to reach a tipping point whereby you are ensnared again. This ensnarement does not necessarily mean going back into a formal relationship with us, but it means a continued engagement of some form where you have lost insight. It will happen and if you think that it will not, then guess what? Yes, you are succumbing to emotional thinking. You might be able to have sex the once and then walk away and never do it again but it is highly unlikely and therefore why take the risk? Your ET will be fighting hard, very hard, to make you engage with us and cause you to lose insight. Would you put your head in the lion’s mouth knowing there is a risk it might bite? No. Same applies to us – do not take a risk which is entirely unnecessary. Obey that golden rule and get out and stay out.
- “I want the narcissist to see how much he has hurt me. He needs to know what he has done.” Pointless. We do not care. Your hurt, your anger, your misery, your upset – it is all more fuel and we will lap it up. You will get nothing out of it, save more manipulation, heightened emotional thinking and in all likelihood further ensnarement and with that more misery. Yes, you are hurt – showing that hurt to us serves no purpose. Again, your ET will be telling you to do it to make you feel better (you are unlikely to feel better and even if you do it will not last and there is a greater price to pay for that fleeting moment of illusionary improvement in how you feel).
- “I can help the narcissist. He can change. He is a lost soul. He needs my help.” No, you cannot change the narcissist. You cannot help (but you can help yourself). Your emotional thinking is corrupting your compassion empathic trait, it is corrupting your trait of wanting to fix and to heal. Once again, by trying to use these traits to cause you to interact physically with the narcissist, all that is happening is that you are delivering control to the narcissist, you will provide fuel and you will heighten your emotional thinking further. You will run the risk of further devaluation or a malign hoover (dependent on where you are in the narcissistic dynamic).
It may seem obvious to some but many people still breach no contact by seeking and/or allowing physical interaction with the narcissist. Whether it is the narcissist coming to see you, the narcissist appearing in person through an ‘ambush’ or you seeking an audience with the narcissist in person – all of these are breaches of no contact and must not be carried out and if you have done any of them, they must not be repeated.
Any thinking which suggests that there is a good reason to allow such physical interaction to happen is emotional thinking and you must reject it immediately before it gets a hold on you (and it will if you keep allowing ET into your life) and greater adverse consequences occur as a result of you losing insight, failing to follow logic and falling prey to the disastrous influences of emotional thinking.
Remember, ET is not your friend. It is a con artist. It makes you think you are using logic when you are not. Reject it. Obey the First Golden Rule of Freedom.
17 thoughts on “No Contact? No, Its Not! Part One”
But is there harm in fueling the narc with sex (or fantasy sexting) if that’s all I want too? If it’s a friends with benefits thing and there’s no real emotional attachment, for me it’s just more of an annoyance that he keeps disappearing than any emotional trauma (I’m mostly a LDS, used only for adoration, there is no fighting, etc). Or will the fact that I have no trauma make him lose all interest?
Yes. Read The Devil´s Pitchfork.
I have a friend who would consider herself in a similar position with a lesser narc. (Although, she refuses to believe he is a narc and for the most part doesn’t “believe in narcs,” but that is not the point here.)
They have sex, they “hang out” as friends, he uses her for admiration, gifts, sex obviously. The “friendship” is completely one sided. He does nothing for her. Just takes, takes, takes. Apart from him disappearing, she isn’t bothered by this. She views it as an even exchange somehow and feels this arrangement works for her. He is cruel and verbally abusive at times, yet she forgives and quite literally, forgets. I am incensed by the whole thing, while she’s just “whatever.” She seems to lack the emotional attachment. So, I resign myself to thinking there is no harm. HOWEVER — my friend is married. This guy, being a narc, is liable to do anything at any time, including tell her husband what’s going on. She believes he won’t do that, but in my mind, the possibility still exists.
My point is, I feel there is always some danger in engaging with a narc. Something akin to playing with fire…. you may have a fire resistant suit, but eventually it will weaken if you keep rolling in flames. Is it really worth the risk?
Joanne what you talk about there is a perfect example of people wanting to believe only what fits their own narrative. People rarely want to hear sound advise when it comes to their relationships, yet act shocked when it all comes crashing down. She is looking at things from her own perspective and can not see the big picture yet. She will get there, sometimes that just takes time.
In the meantime I would not even bother trying to warn her, just be there for her in a year or two when things inevitably fail and she is devastated. Just change the subject when she brings it up.. if she’s so OK with what’s happening then no need to feel sorry for her anyways. It amazes me how many people act that way.
Hope you’re having a good day Joanne 🙂
Getting there does not just take time but it is the application of the correct information over that time period. If you are not using the right information, no matter how long it takes, the individual will not reach the point they need to. It is similar to when people say practice makes perfect, that is wrong, it is the right type of practice that makes perfect.
You are correct about not bothering to warn the individual. Her ET will mean such an approach, however well-intentioned, is doomed to failure.
I’ve seen people repeatedly since entering this unique world of knowledge fail by paying heed to less than stellar providers of information HG. The veneer is great for a lot of the information but it’s not perfect and this has to be correct from all angles. Two people who I’ve seen do so much work—yet re-entangled and they haven’t a clue. Yet. As bananas as I felt and was last fall when I found the work you do I knew the information was head and shoulders above. Not sure why or how other than maybe just having an eye for what was superior—luck certainly.. The ability to have an open mind helped as some cannot get over the narcissist teaching but I’m glad I kept reading. It never really bothered me thankfully.
Thank you Lorelei and your progress during this time has been significant and rewarding.
I told you that you have seen nothing—I’m not even back to my brilliant baseline. Haha—I’m a few miles away and then I shall surpass. Why? I lost a lot of time. It creates a drive for excellence and mediocrity will not suffice. I have a ton of projects in process and a possible government advocacy fellowship happening. If I don’t get the fellowship this year I will next year. I’m not taking my time left for granted. I lost too much.
That’s a good way to look at it I hadn’t considered the “practice makes perfect” theory in that way before. But it’s true… you can sit there by yourself struggling to grasp concepts until you get the proper technique down.
I know for myself I received very good advice regarding my narc from well intended people who love me, and I had to go down the road by myself and figure things out for myself. So that’s is why I let others figure it out for themselves as well.
Joanne you are a sweetheart. Well intended but your friend just isn’t going to hear any of it. And I think people hate to be told what to do. They want to be supported in their decisions not ridiculed. It’s tough to watch someone go through that.
It does make me nutty, especially after all this knowledge I’ve acquired. I feel compelled to impart it on those in need! But you’re right, so I do try to leave her to her business. I know I’ll be there when she needs me. Hope you’re having a good one too, e007 🙂
I can see that. My narc is not abusive at all, with the exception of the mind games (mostly silence), which I am on to now, so they don’t affect me. He is never derogatory to me, or I would be gone. He is also in a very long term relationship and has a lot to lose himself, so I don’t see him doing anything foolish. The abusive side to her narc would worry me as well, so you are smart for worrying.
BL, I understand where you are coming from I can’t even count the number of times I’ve wanted to end no contact purely to carry out a sexual relationship. And also the arrangement seems to work for you… for now.
One thing that kept me NC was reminding myself that even though I may not get the worst of his abusive behaviours…. I am enabling a personality disordered person to continue to do as they do with by engaging. Basically I would be saying “it’s totally fine you abuse women because you don’t treat me
That bad” if I went back.
Be a part of the solution… I’m not judging at all but just think about it.
She sounds like a narc too lol
I likely have a narc streak. But I can’t comprehend how having no strings attached sex isn’t a better feeling than making someone feel crazy by going silent. To me they are depriving themselves, but apparently that’s not how they see it. That’s how I know I’m not a narc. Lol.
lol, no, she is the farthest from it. She is one of the kindest, most selfless people I’ve ever know, genuinely. She just has zero boundaries and zero self esteem. It’s so sad and I get extra angry on her behalf.
“My point is, I feel there is always some danger in engaging with a narc. Something akin to playing with fire…. you may have a fire resistant suit, but eventually it will weaken if you keep rolling in flames. Is it really worth the risk?”
Well said Joanne. The Devil’s Pitchfork article explains it very well. Once we know we go. There’s always a risk. One might start out as a DLS used only for sex and adoration but there’s always a chance that something will change in the narc’s situation and might need more that sex and adoration and their entitlement and lack of empathy means they will take it from us if we have what they need.