Narcissist Vs Shelf IPSS


The following is a breakdown of an interaction between a Middle Mid-Range Narcissist and a Geyser Standard Empath. The two are in a Formal Relationship of Narcissist and Shelf IPSS (“SIPSS”), which those not benefiting from such knowledge would see as a married person who is having an affair with someone who is The Other Woman/Man.

  1. The narcissist and the SIPSS have spent the weekend together away in a coastal city. Therefore the SIPSS is off the shelf for the extent of the duration. She is painted white. The narcissist received positive fuel of a very good potency (SIPSS), massive quantity (in person, sexual interaction) and constantly (together all weekend).

2. The weekend ends and they leave the coastal city together. SIPSS off shelf and painted white.

3. The two part company and return to their respective homes. The SIPSS is now ON the shelf. This is not devaluation. The SIPSS remains painted white.

4. The following day, SIPSS sends a text to the narcissist

“It was great spending the weekend with you. I can’t wait until we do it again.”

This is pure positive fuel. Very good potency, one off frequency, very low quantity as short and in writing.

There is no response for an hour. The narcissist responds with

“It was great. Yes, we will do it again soon. I have a busy week ahead, so I will text you later on. Missing you.”

The SIPSS remains on the shelf. She remains painted white. This was a comfort crumb from the narcissist. It was pleasant, it maintains the engagement but signals to the SIPSS that she should not expect to hear from the narcissist often.

5. The following day there is no contact between the two. This is not a Silent Treatment, the SIPSS remains on the shelf and painted white.

6. The day after, the narcissist is reminded of the weekend. The SIPSS has entered his sixth sphere of influence. This is a Hoover Trigger. His Intimate Partner Primary Source has gone out for the evening unexpectedly. She in devaluation. Her departure has wounded the narcissist, he sends her an unpleasant text to provoke her in order to gain fuel. He requires fuel to address the wound, he can easily contact the SIPSS by text, social media or telephone, she has no partner, she has not wounded him, she provides excellent fuel and therefore the Hoover Bar is very low and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met. The narcissist telephones SIPSS. She has been taken off the shelf. They speak, fuel is provided, he berates his wife to the SIPSS (triangulation) and speak for about an hour. The call ends. The SIPSS goes back on the shelf and remains painted white.

7. There is no contact between the two of them for three days.

8. The SIPSS sends a text message early in the morning to the narcissist

“How are you? Just wanted to let you know I am missing you.”

Positive fuel. Very good potency, one-off frequency, very low amount.

There is an instant response from the narcissist by text

“I miss you too.”

The SIPSS sends a further text.

“I cannot wait until we can see one another again.”

Positive fuel, very good potency, one-off frequency, very low amount.

There is no response from the narcissist. The SIPSS remains on the shelf. She is painted white. The narcissist has not given a silent treatment but the lack of response is purely symptomatic of being on the shelf.

9. The following day the SIPSS texts the narcissist again early in the morning

“Hi, are you okay?”

Positive fuel, very good potency one-off frequency, very low amount.

There is no response. The SIPSS is still on the shelf, painted white and this is not a silent treatment.

10. She waits thirty minutes and texts again

“Please will you answer me, I hate not hearing from you.”

Positive fuel, very good potency, one-off frequency, very low amount.

Ten minutes later the narcissist replies by text

“I was in the shower. Busy day ahead. Will text later.”

This is a comfort crumb. The SIPSS is on the shelf and painted white.

11. There has been no contact between the two and it is now 5pm. The SIPSS texts again

“I really find it hard not hearing from you.”

This is positive fuel, very good potency, one-off frequency, very low amount.

There is no response from the narcissist. The SIPSS is on the shelf and painted white.

12. She waits ten minutes and texts again

“I thought you said you were going to text me later? This hurts.”

This is now Challenge Fuel. Her admission of hurt is negative fuel (albeit a very small amount as it is contained in a text) – however she is seeking to hold the narcissist to something he stated. The narcissist is NOT wounded by this, but regards this as a challenge to his superiority because the SIPSS is trying to make him feel accountable and this feels like his control is being eroded.

13. The narcissist replies with a text two minutes later

“I told you I had a busy day ahead, I am in a meeting.”

He is providing an explanation and asserting his superiority by looking to close the matter. He has not been provocative and is not seeking fuel from the SIPSS.

14. The SIPSS answers immediately

“Sorry, I didn’t know. When will you text me, or will you give me a call?”

This is Challenge Fuel again. The apology is a very small amount of positive fuel, the request for a call is mildly Challenging BUT aggregates with the earlier text message. The narcissist has not been able to assert the superiority to the extent required.

He texts back immediately

“No idea. V busy. Cannot talk now.”

He is not seeking fuel (he will be well fuelled whatever he is doing – maybe in the meeting or if not in a meeting in some other interaction) but needs to assert superiority and is seeking to close the challenge down. The SIPSS remains on the shelf and remains painted white

15. The SIPPS does not relent. She texts back straight away :-

” Will it be tonight? I want to talk to you, I always enjoy our chats. I hate not hearing from you.”

Again positive Challenge Fuel.

There is no response from the narcissist. His lack of response is designed to assert superiority by halting the conversation and thus the challenge from the SIPSS. The SIPSS remains on the shelf and painted white.

16. The SIPSS texts again :-

“Will it be tonight? I want us to talk, please.”

No response from the narcissist. Same point as above applies.

17. The SIPSS texts again :-

“Just yes or no, that’s all, I miss you.”

Positive Challenge Fuel.

No response from the narcissist. Same point as above applies.

18. The SIPSS texts again :-

“Will you answer me? It will only take you a second. Don’t ignore me.”

Negative Challenge Fuel. The irritation is fuel and the request to answer, prescriptive statement on the time taken and command not to ignore are the challenges.

No response from the narcissist. Same point applies.

19. The SIPSS texts again :-

“Answer me. This is not fair. Stop ignoring me. You had better answer me or I will call you at home on the landline.”

Negative Challenge Fuel. Annoyance plus criticism and threat.

20. The narcissist responds

“I said I am BUSY. Stop texting me. I said I would text you later but you cannot leave it can you? You dare ring my house. If you do, that’s it, it’s over. You’ve pissed me off.”

The narcissist is irritated by the SIPSS failure to accede to his superiority. She is not wounding because fuel is being provided.

The SIPSS repeated failure to stop texting and be patient now means she is painted black. She has failed to accept the narcissist’s superiority. She has not been compliant. The narcissist will now ignore her texts completely. She is being given a Corrective Devaluation which is an absent silent treatment.

21. The upset SIPSS fires off ten more texts. She makes no threats but insults the narcissist and complains about him being unfair and uncaring. These are either pure fuel or challenge fuel. The narcissist does not respond. The SIPSS realises there will be no response so she stops texting. She does not call the home landline.

The narcissist, in accordance with the Corrective Devaluation does not contact the SIPSS at all that night.

The SIPSS is on the shelf, painted black and subject to a Corrective Devaluation.

22. The next day the SIPSS sends a text at midday

“I am really sorry I pestered you yesterday, I know you work hard, it is only because I wanted to hear from you. I won’t do it again. I adore you and I will just wait to hear from you.”

This is pure positive fuel. The narcissist on reading this instinctively recognises that his superiority has been accepted again by the climbdown. The text is a Hoover Trigger. The narcissist sees this climbdown and views the SIPSS as white again. The Hoover Execution Criteria are met and he telephones the SIPSS. The conversation only last 5 minutes but he assures the SIPSS that they will speak tonight.

The SIPSS is still on the shelf, painted white and the Corrective Devaluation has ended.

23. The narcissist recalls his promise to call. This is a Hoover Trigger. The Hoover Execution Criteria are met (he recalls excellent fuel from the SIPSS, she is easy to contact, she has not wounded, there are no obstacles) and thus he does indeed telephone her and they speak for two hours that evening whilst the IPPS is out at the rifle range. For this telephone call the SIPSS is off the shelf, painted white. Positive fuel is provided during the conversation. It is of very good quality as coming from an SIPSS, the frequency is constant for the duration of the call and it is of moderate quantity since it is a telephone call.

Once the call ends, the SIPSS is back on the shelf and painted white.

24. Around midnight with the IPPS sound asleep and the narcissist in his bolthole, he recalls the telephone call (hoover trigger) and again the Hoover Execution Criteria are met ( similar to points above at 23) so he sends a text to the SIPSS. She replies immediately. They text back and forth for an hour. During this exchange the SIPSS is off the shelf and painted white. Positive fuel is provided. It is of very good quality, very frequent and low quantity because it is in writing. The narcissist is in-between engaging with another SIPSS online through social media and thus has two fuel lines open at this point.

When the texting ends, the SIPSS is placed back on the shelf and is painted white. The narcissist engages still with the other SIPSS and does so through Skype engaging in some mutual masturbation. Once that has concluded, the call ends and that SIPSS goes on the shelf also.

Accordingly, this short series of interactions provides the pattern of behaviours, clarifies how the appliance is regarded, how a Corrective Devaluation works, shows the shift from white to black to white, the fuel gathered, the type of interaction occurring and also the entwinement with other appliances also.




398 thoughts on “Narcissist Vs Shelf IPSS

  1. honestyrocks777 says:

    Can one be an IPSS that receives daily morning and nightly calls and the constant breakups (6 times in 6 minths) be disengagement repeatedly?

    Can an IP be a SS but not be a SIPSS but be an IPSS that gets shelved because of challenge fuel or wounding without someone else being in the picture?

    1. dirtyEmpath says:

      This is me lol. I have a feeling there has to be another ipss though.

  2. Kim e says:

    HG. you stated
    January 27, 2020 at 22:34
    You are in the Formal Relationship as the shelf appliance

    And I assume my status as DLS stays the same?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  3. WokeAF says:

    SMH – even with all the evidence before them, I’m of the theory it’s the rare IPPS indeed who could understand HG’s work enough to escape whilst still in the formal relationship.
    If you’re at war- you fight the war- when the war ends, you can begin to see you were a brainwashed pawn.
    It’s the combination of space of NC AND HG’s work that brings true realization .
    A little understanding might get through but the IPPS is under continuous fire. ER is raging. PTSD is trying to get a foothold – it’s a mess.
    I’ve been the IPPS ONCE.
    My first ever relationship. I had his kids and battled it out for near 11 years —-
    Which I know is why I’m a shitty IPPS choice now 😆 I’ve had 13 years of freedom. As soon as I tasted it I was hooked. I’ve had a couple of narc flings since, but always escape and never wanted to cohabitate-
    And as I said somewhere else here, I can’t help but just tell them where to shove it.

    My MMR has a doormat too but I’m quite sure she’s a carrier standard.
    She was sober but now drinks again – nightly. I’m not surprised.

  4. BL says:

    WokeAF, I was SIPSS and I was painted black for suggesting we get together in person. He wanted our “relationship” on his terms, but never communicated those terms to me. When I suggested anything outside of what he wanted, I was met with silence (usually a week, but had gone up to 2 weeks), or sometimes a cryptic social media post, which I took to be directed at me, but who knows. There were probably 5 of me out there all causing him “problems”. I tried to “behave” and only follow his cues because I wanted to stay in the relationship, but that becomes boring to them, so the rules have to change. It was supposed to be a fun fling, it turned into tedious work.

  5. WokeAF says:

    I’m fairly certain that he’s a MMR – but he IS very careful with his facade and is grandiose and would have reacted as I said which is described as UMR

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The answer lies here

  6. WokeAF says:

    Am rereading. I’m actually re-reading all your books this week.

  7. WokeAF says:

    Does heated or cold fury signal wounding every single time ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See the book Fury.

  8. Notme! says:

    Hi Woke I was IPSS and we interacted every day (so presumably shelved in between times -painted white), while they might be called corrective devaluations, they were fairly sustained at times. Strange interactions, manipulations, cold shoulder, undermining, gaslighting, back handed compliments etc. Could go on for weeks at a time, usually until I pushed back and said ‘I’ve had enough of this, don’t contact me for rest of the week’. Looking back I can differentiate between when I was painted black or white. Longest shelving was 5 days after I’d lost my shit and said I didn’t want to talk to him. Usually if I backed off, he would still text everyday and ask if I wanted to talk. Last time we were together, he was an arse for almost 10 days straight, perhaps seeking to control to get me to disengage although he sought to re-start after I escaped. Not sure how much it matters what it’s called tbh.

    1. WokeAF says:

      NotMe I hadn’t realized how easily we can get painted black lol
      So if they suggest pizza for dinner and you disagree , you’re Black ? Lol

      The more years I’m reading HG’s material, the clearer it all is and honestly it just becomes more and more fascinating

  9. WokeAF says:

    Ok. I recently had a relapse and I’m analyzing what I saw- bc I saw a LOT more than I ever did in the Fog, under the spell.
    I picked up on blameshifting, gaslighting, volte face , blatant contradiction, …as well as seeing him on Dating sites (checking messages I suspect) first thing in the AM (fuelling up) …there was a continuous need to control and this was especially so around when I slept (or didn’t sleep). Like just rude AF— flipping on the lights early , trying to get me up for no reason when I’m exhausted (6:30 am, 8 am) – clearly annoyed I’m “sleeping in”, waking me up after I’d fallen asleep at night, he doesn’t like it when I sleep lol
    The second night he passed out on the couch and I only wanted a good sleep so I went to bed and left him there. He woke up (I know this bc he came to see if I was in bed) but spent the whole night sleeping on the couch. ( PST? Bolt hole?)
    And I know that was meant to upset me but instead I got the whole night to myself in a king size bed and I was exhausted and it was amazing because he snores horrifically.

    Also I picked up consciously on something I had seen before many many times but not been able to figure out- Night one Im made to feel like a goddess but by the next morning or mid day the next day he’s restless and not mentally present ,seems almost a little bored with me although he won’t admit it.
    Not that I cared I was bored with him by then too.

    Also my first ever blatant volte face- TOLD me TWICE to give him a reminder- and when I did it- turned around and got offended that I doubted his memory. THAT one was jaw dropping.

    ANYHOW.. it was a relapse, I’m ok now, but this was after a months long escape by me and I noticed he’s not as careful to control the cold fury. Or maybe I just didn’t pick up on it before.

    To me, this is not seduction or golden period behaviour (?) certainly not how it was years ago. Unless I missed it bc I was in the fog.

    Surely it must be exhausting to keep the fury under control with an IPSS if it’s a years long entanglement?

  10. WokeAF says:

    No I’m actually referring to quality of interaction. Cold fury showing more regularly (as in some of the manipulations you outline)..a sense of familiarity .
    Does a IPSS not EVER go stale ?
    Does a narc keep an IPSS in a devaluation period -until a replacement is found-as he would with the IPPS?
    Surely the seduction is over with an IPSS after a certain amount of time, and the golden period can last “years & years” – but not forever ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Highly unlikely for an IPSS to go stale. We do not interact with them enough for that to happen. That is why they get Corrective Devaluations, rather than Sustained Devaluation.
      2. No.
      3. The Golden Period for the IPSS operates differently because of the shelf dynamic.

  11. WokeAF says:

    HG, I understand the IPPS enters and stays in (excepting respites) devaluation.
    I also understand , that if a IPSS requires it, they will receive a corrective devaluation, and if this doesn’t work, disengagement.

    But does a narc ever end the golden period w a shelf- without disengaging ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not in the strictest sense but in effect by putting you back on the shelf and it is your perception. You remain painted white but there is no interaction (you are on the shelf) so you may feel like the golden period has ended (most IPSSs mistakenly view being put on the shelf as devaluation when often it is not).

  12. Notme! says:

    SDE, Ignore and Delete, who cares what he wants?
    I’ve been thinking about the difference between what they want from us and what we want from them. Problem is they don’t match and whilst we yearn for reciprocity, they don’t have the capacity for it. A bit like ordering steak in a pizza restaurant. It’s not on the menu…stop asking for steak!

    I got a hoover by mail this week which went in the bin, an email was sent to family member and I had 2 calls from private number which I ignored. Triggers galore apparently. They didn’t upset me this time as I am determined never to speak to him in any way again. And actually I was amused to think of him getting irrate that he is being ignored. The repeated hoovers also got me thinking about the IPSS idea. I recall the anguish I felt when it was first suggested that I was an IPSS. There is a lot of language used that reinforces the damage to our self-esteem caused by the Ns. Things like ‘dirty little secret’, ‘not achieved the status of IPPS’ ‘the prime importance of the IPPS’ ‘ I was only an IPSS’ etc. I don’t think we need to take that crap on ourselves. Everyone wants something out of a relationship, N’s just happen to want fuel. Ns might consider secondary sources as less important in their food chain but we don’t have to be defined by that. They are the ones who scrabble about searching for attention from anyone they’ve ever been involved with. I say – sisters of shelf, lets get the feck out of here!

    1. BL says:

      NotMe! my fellow sister of the shelf… I LOVE your steak analogy! I have stopped asking for steak from the pizza boy because he just can’t give it to me (though he’ll kindly offer me a sausage topping). You’re awesome! 😁💗

  13. FYC says:

    Hello Kim e, I hope you don’t mind the intrusion of an outside perspective. I am replying to your more recent converstation, but I could not find another reply button.

    I am happy to hear you will be consulting with HG. I have read your comments over time and I have wanted to assist, but felt you were, in some way, wanting to remain in touch with your N (if only in thought and discussion). I know that as long as we hold on to anything (even a memory or hope)., we will not let go of it in full. But, thinking about, talking about (not here but elsewhere) or engaging with the N maintains the dynamic and hurts you and your ability to heal.

    I’m sure at the beginning of your relationship with the N he made you feel wonderful in a way that you do not regularly feel on your own and the memory of that feeling and the hope of its return, or the desire for a better outcome drives another part of your reluctance to go fully NC and remain so.

    I want you to know that you are a treasure and a gift to all who know you. Others never determine your worth, it is intrinsic. Take stock of all you appreciate in yourself and really embrace your lovely qualities. Seek the company of others who appreciate you in full. Never approval seek. Never settle for a part of something if you want the whole. Deep down you know what would fulfill you, and this relationship is not that. I’ll bet if you made a list of qualities you desired in partner when you were very young, the words “married to someone else” and “narcissist” do not appear on that list. The few moments you enjoyed this person’s company are not worth the weeks, months or years of anguish you continue to experience. True NC will help you focus on you, not the N. You may, on some level fear that inner self/work, but do not. Embrace all that you are. You are worthy. I wish you the best with your consult. I know it will prove invaluable.

    1. SMH says:

      FYC, So thoughtful and kind of you to write that all out. We love you, Kim e! You will get through this!

      1. FYC says:

        Thank you, SMH.

  14. Renarde says:


    Depends on the person but in my case it didnt. My LT decided to kick in five years ago. I escaped. For then.

    The guilt and shame would take years to even begin to abate but then my case is atypical.

    It will take many years before the shame will go completely.

    This sounds quite down but I can promise you one thing, you’ll never even begin to start whilst you’re in the formal relationship.

  15. Supernova DE says:

    Kim e,
    Hey girl. I’m not trying to butt in but I heard a song tonight that made me think of you (and all of us that are IPSS). I attach the link but know you are doing the right thing and that each time it will last for longer.

    Halsey – You should be sad:

    I initially found music very “triggering” during NC and broke it a few times due to song lyrics causing surges in my ET. If you are in the same boat, maybe don’t listen to this now. But I find it cathartic now, when my ET is lower. In fact Halsey and Dua Lipa are great artists to listen to if you want to hear artistic empaths describe their experiences with narcs.

    Xo, SDE

    1. Kim e says:

      SDE. “cause you can’t love nothing…..”
      That was the part that got me in a good way. Thanks for the song. Made me feel special that you thought about me.
      I have been having “AHA” moments so I know my LT is getting stronger. I am going to be fine….time is on my side
      Smooches 😘

      1. Supernova DE says:

        I’ll stop after this one I promise!!

        “It’s funny how…the warning signs can feel like they’re butterflies..”

        1. Kim e says:

          WOW. I really enjoyed that. Not sure butterflies is what I felt but it was something. I could not eat….lost 25 pounds in 3 months. That was a good thing…I needed that….just not the mind fuck that came with it and after it and is still going on.
          Thank you for thinking of me with the music. If you find another that fits the bill…pleaze feel free to share

          1. Supernova DE says:

            I felt anxiously nauseated during the latter part of my seduction. It was a struggle to eat more than a few bites. I didn’t understand the anxiety at the time and increased my running regime and added weights to combat it…I was in the best shape I’ve ever been in!! This increased my vanity and physical self esteem which just led me to send him more pics, so he certainly got a fuel fest.

            I got a likely Hoover last night. Middle of the night social media message from a name I don’t know…haven’t read it but also haven’t yet deleted it. I know I should. The profile photo is a dog, but the same breed of dog that he has, it has to be him.
            Trying to be cool but wtf it’s been months!!! My body is saying “what could he possibly want?!” My brain answers “fuel.”

          2. FYC says:

            Hello SuperDE, I have been hoovered by Ns not just years, but more than a decade later and I was no contact. If the hoover criteria is met for them, you will be hoovered. Time is irrelevant to the N. Please delete the message and do not respond. You will lose nothing and gain well-being. If you answer a hoover, you are inflicting more psychological pain on yourself. Please opt out. You deserve far better.

    2. SMH says:

      Great song, SDE. I don’t know if Kim e listened to it yet but I did!

      1. Supernova DE says:

        I know! Some of it is a bit tongue in cheek “I’m so glad I never ever had a baby with you”. But isn’t that just the blunt truth for those of us that were IPSS?? We could walk away. Thank god!

        1. SMH says:

          SDE, Yes! I was IPPS to one (before MRN) but did not share children or finances with him either, thankfully! I think the best advice for women – or for anyone really – is to be financially independent and to be able to leave, even with a kid.

    3. blackcoffee30 says:

      Thanks SupernovaDE, I’ve added this to my IDGAF playlist.

  16. DoForLuv says:

    You’re addicted before that

    Is it in seduction fase HG ? .

    It’s in our nature too I guess

  17. Dorion says:

    HG, don’t narcissists ever get tired of maintaining these things? I mean, I personally have no issues with having more than one romantic/sexual interests simultaneously if everyone is okay with it (which is another topic, I doubt here the different IPSSs fully consent) and it is satisfying, and I have done that many times in my life as a naturally polyamorous person. But never with the kind of intensity described in this article, juggling them on a daily basis and with this frequency, not even close. Even just one day like this in the narc’s life sounds exhausting to me and, I believe, it would for most normal individuals. I also would not be able to get much out of each interaction this way, because I would be quickly desensitized, doing so much of it. But I certainly understand excess and experienced it in other ways, just not with relationships, so this is intriguing. So is this a typical day for a narc like you HG, or an especially dense one described for the sake of an educational example?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You will read about my typical day in due course.

      Do narcissists get tire of maintaining these “things” some do, but they do not realise it, therefore they believe their fatigue, irritability etc is as a consequence of something else. The more evolved narcissists are not as affected in this manner as lower echelon ones.

  18. Renarde says:

    Kim e

    Oh hey honey! Just caught this. Broadly, I’m well x

    Actually, just sat here having a cry. Not bad tears though, more emotional, wobbly tears. Ok, had a PTSD flashback.

    You see, in one of those random things the universe sometimes does, an opportunity has just landed in my lap. The fear is gripping me. But I’m also excited to. Fearcitement.

    Just had someone who has created a bio and read it back to me. I cant stop crying.

    1. Kim e says:

      Oh no.

      Is this a good opportunity? If so I hope fearcitement doesn’t hold you back.

      This bio is on you? Sad tears or happy tears? I just need to know how my geyser empath should react ❤️

      1. Renarde says:

        Kim e

        It’s a very good opportunity. Andcues, it was a brief bio. I’ve just never had it read back to me before. Was weird. Like someone knew I existed?

        1. Kim e says:

          Good opportunities are rare but usually appear to people that have worked and earned them. Good luck with it.
          If you ever need validation that you exist…..let me know. You are real even in cyber space.
          But I get what you mean. Feeling worthless becomes a habit….time to break it.
          Have a great weekend!!!

          1. Renarde says:

            Kim e

            Sorry for tardiness! And thank you for your kind offer. Which equally goes for you.

            So, had my opportunity to talk about the other subject close to my heart. What was bizarre that wherever I went, there were posters of me and my achievements. Academic. It was a bit discombobulating. I’m semi-used to getting recognised but this was different.

            It went very well and other outcomes are now presenting themselves. I’d hoped for this.

            You ok?

          2. Kim e says:

            Off the wagon otherwise I am good…LOL

          3. Renarde says:

            That’s excellent to hear so, Kim.

  19. Gál Cecília says:

    Dear HG!

    Wich fuel is more valuable, IPSS or DIPSS? Why dont with IPSS have as dense sex as DIPSS? Thx from Hungary

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello and welcome, please see the book Fuel which you can obtain on Amazon.

  20. Kim e says:

    Just checking in on you. Hope all is going well.

  21. Melanie says:


    1. Does the LMRN also text that he is very busy to the Shelf IPSS like the Middle Midrange does?

    2. I read in your example in this article that the Middle MRN says he is busy a lot when the Shelf IPSS pushes for contact. Would the LMRN say that he is very busy a lot to the Shelf IPSS when she pushed for contact like in your example, too? If not, what would the LMRN do?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.
      2. Yes.

  22. cogra002 says:

    No Violetta….
    I don’t even know what you’re talking about
    I believe I was referring to the comment about people transferring their crush to HG….

    1. Violetta says:

      Never mind, Cogra002. My mind’s in the gutter as usual.

      (Blushes with shame.)

  23. Renarde says:

    Hey NS, I need your help and support.

    My partner of nearly 19 months dumped me via text. Wont return my calls and wont answer my messages.

    Why? Because I caught him out attempting to screw another woman. A vulnerable woman. He then dumped me.

    19 months. Although I had known him for longer.

    He has been removed. And if he crawled to me on bended knees, I would not take him back. Hes shown me his true nature. A nasty, belligerent man who doesnt even have a streak of common decency in him.

    It took many months before I even began to trust him. Now I see my trust was entirely misplaced. I feel like a utter fool. That I let him into my life. I opened myself up. That I told him my deepest and darkest fears.. Now, he has abandoned me. Wont take my calls or message me.

    The act of a total coward. Not a man.

    Of course hes a narc. He fooled me.

    1. SMH says:

      Sorry that happened, Renarde. I had two in a row too. If you wouldn’t take him back anyway, why are you calling him?

      1. Renarde says:

        Thank you SMH.

        Well that’s been quite a bizarre thing. Of course I called him on Friday when he dumped me. Who in earth wouldnt?

        I left him alone saturday. I’ve just called him now. Because obviously I want closure. Then I saw your message.

        In the boot of my car right now is a dead black cat. Not mine but for a minute I thought it was. It had been mauled by dogs. Cats are quick so its unusual one was caught.

        He was breathing when I got to him. By the time I’d run to fetch a towel to pick him up, he was dead. I will bury him tomorrow in the woods.

        I am used to death. Seen it many times. And even gone over the edge myself on occasion. But I saw that poor black creature and I ran inside and vomited.

        The very weird thing is that whilst I’d known the cat for over a year, it was only in the past few days that hed been sitting at my door mewing to get in. Indeed he did get in. A couple of times.

        He knew what his fate was and I didnt protect him. I should’ve protected him.

        Time is not linear. Not in the standard Einstein Relativity model. Time happens in all vectors. I had a good teacher in this. My ex partner. I loved him so much. He told me he loved me twice. That was clearly a lie.

        It took so much to trust him. Many many months. And when I finally did, I was so happy. He gave every impression he worshipped me. Treated me like a Queen. Then he knocked me off my pedestal.

        Our sex was off the scale. Usually physical intimacy wanes in a relationship. That didnt happen. It just got better and better and better. That’s odd. That cannot be right. But it was incredible. I learned to relax during the act. To trust. I did and had multiple orgasms. Squirting, screaming, the works.

        Now our passion is as dead at that poor cat. Because I caught him with his fingers in the till.

    2. njfilly says:


      I just read your comment. I’m very sorry about your relationship and that your trust was betrayed. I hope the new year gets better for you.

      1. Renarde says:


        I’ve just explained to Violetta that he has apologised. I have too.

        Thank you for your support x

    3. Violetta says:

      Renarde: I wish I had words of comfort. I’m still learning how to recognize the signs. It sucks.

      1. Renarde says:


        I do not know if you had narc parents but in terms of anger, I feel much more against my father than I do against my big ex. He taught me that WE were superior. Not to trust anyone. That everybody else are losers. He groomed me to be an ersatz Greater. I didnt understand at the time his MO. He used to lecture me about physics. I wanted to please him so much. I wanted him to love me.

        I grew up not trusting anyone and I still cant. Especially after what has happened with my ex.

        My partner has now apologised. Properly and profusely. So have I. Is he a narc? I’m so confused. So very very confused. This summer I learned to trust again. After what I’ve been through that meant more than life itself.

        What I do know is it’s quite difficult to get a narc to apologise. A lesser will get angry and blame shift all over the place. A middle will fall into their own wallowing pit of self despair. And if you think you will get words out of a Greater, think again. In all my fourty plus years, I’ve never had a sincere and heartfelt apology. Because I actually did do wrong. I messaged a third party who wasnt probably trying to overstep my boundary, just simply not thinking. My partner held me to account whilst equally acknowledging his actions.

        Thank you for your support. X

        1. HG Tudor says:

          All narcissists can apologise, Mid Rangers use it the most however. An apology is words and they come very easily.

          1. Renarde says:

            HG Thank you for your words. I simply do not know black from white any longer. I’ve not been able to do that since I was born.

            Thank you.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

            Put the individual through the ND.

          3. Renarde says:


            I will count my pennies and do so.

          4. Notme! says:

            I deeply regret…
            I apologise sincerely…
            I’m sorry if…
            I understand you are unhappy, I’ll do better at…
            In future I will…
            If I caused offence…
            I seem to have gotten things wrong…
            Please forgive my mistake…
            I am resolved to ensure that…
            I read your words with sadness…
            I accept you have strongly held views about this and…
            I want to reassure you…

            Just some off the top of my head

          5. SMH says:

            Thank you for that reminder, HG. I was just going to note that any narc can apologize if it gets him more fuel.

        2. Kim e says:

          I am so sorry that your heart has been crushed. Please know that we are here for you BUT also that you need to be there for yourself.
          Remember your teachings from here….if it smells like a N, chances are it is.
          Either way, be happy……

          1. Renarde says:

            Thank you Kim e and for your reassurance you and others are there. X

        3. Notme! says:

          I’ve had literally dozens of apologies from the narcissist, behaviour only changed briefly, then, back to type.
          If someone fucks up and behaves in a way that hurts you and then apologises, forgive them once. If they continue – GOSO

          1. Renarde says:


            You see I’m not used to apologies. PN would almost never apologise for his behaviour. When he was forced to because his behaviour had become so outrageous (the night when he attempted to beat me up), it was through gritted teeth. My brother (who has YET AGAIN attempted to Hoover me recently, what the AF is wrong with my phone?) Wouod readily say sorry then revert to type. My ex NEVER apologised. Ever. He would just stare blankly at me. And clentch his jaw. Probably to stop himself lamping me for having the audacity to complain.

            My ex never really physically hurt me he is a big and powerful man. He could have killed me. Not easily because I’m used to standing up to men and I fight dirty but not like a woman. Plus I know how to hit properly, know pressure points and above all I can put myself into SN. I can be very dangerous. This is the black snake which lives coiled inside me. There is a green one too. These are the two primal natures of myself. I’ve known of their existence for years.

            He fucked up and I fucked up. I’m going to see how it goes.

            And thank you x

        4. Violetta says:

          Renarde: I suspect my parents were narcissistic rather than full narc, but I haven’t done a consult with HG. They’re both dead now, so when I do one (which I hope I’ll be in a situation to do–let’s pray/sage/stroke Cthulhu’s tentacles I can play up my professional competence, which actually exists, and conceal my essential weirdness in an upcoming job interview), it will be to understand better what happened and its effect on me and my interactions, not to deal with a current situation.

          As HG said, some of them can say “Sorry” quite easily–and go right back to doing whatever they did.

          I had thought for a while that the foolproof sign of a narc is any guy I found attractive, but thinking back to a guy I met through a reenactment group, he was almost certainly one, and I found him repellent. So my radar isn’t perfect, but it’s comforting to know I’m not attracted to all narcs.

          As for your guy, have you looked for red flags? Tried any of the procedures HG listed to see if he reveals himself? (Forget which article–K??????) These are preliminary steps; collect your evidence, but even if the Tudoristas can’t help you interpret it, you know who can.

          1. Renarde says:

            Bloody hell Violetta! Ate you in my head?

            A lot of your post resonates with me. Especially your own narc detector. I also assume that if a man wants me, he is a narc. Your point about being disgusted also rings true. I’ve met quite a few who leave me recoiling in utter disgust. They usually fall into the lesser category. And like you, I have tangled with the reenactment bunch.

            As to flags. Nope. Just not seen them. At all even after over two years in total together. He has the ability to be very emotionally cold but then so do I. His time keeping is chronic. But if we take HGs lessons that narcs want to control and manipulate emotion, it’s simply not there. At all. Not that I can see. It may be true that I am in an elongated golden period. But considering what he has done for me and considering the unaware act in the now, it beggars belief. Is he aware? Well if he is its of the kind I dont know about.

            All I’ve ever wanted is to give love and be loved. That’s it. I know that makes me incredibly vulnerable. But I do love him and on occasion, he has said he lives me. Not that it’s important. Deeds not words and he has made me incredibly happy. I do not cry or rail against his behaviour.

        5. Notme! says:

          Trips of the tongue doesn’t it Renarde?

          “My Darling X
          I read and considered your message carefully and see you’re unhappy and there is a lot to clarify. I have thought about it and feel I have some explaining to do as well as some ideas on what to do moving forward.

          I understand that you don’t feel like chatting for a couple of days and of course I’ll respect that. I would like to talk at the weekend if you are interested and feel up to hearing what I have to say.

          I feel awful that I have upset you by not fully considering all the possible consequences of my proposal. Upsetting you is the last thing I would want to do, and I’m ready to resolve the concerns that you raised so as to recover the situation. I hope you will let me try. Will early on Saturday evening be convenient? I do hope so as I feel sure we can resolve this successfully if you would just talk to me”

          I had told him to shove his long weekend visit (after completing other tasks) up his ass and said ‘we’re done’ – again.

          Good example of word salad, blame shifting, re-setting, history re-writing, lack of accountability, entitlement and grandiosity all packaged into an ‘apology’ from MRN. Typing it out for you almost gave me frostbite. X

          1. Violetta says:

            I remember when we broke up, the first time
            Saying, “This is it, I’ve had enough”
            ‘Cause like we hadn’t seen each other in a month
            When you, said you, needed space (what?)
            Then you come around again and say
            “Baby, I miss you and I swear I’m gonna change, trust me”

            (Not that Tay-Tay is any position to cry “Narc!” besides the “takes-one-to-know one” position.)

          2. Renarde says:


            Dear lady, you have not upset me in the slightest! I’m now ashamed that my words have come across in such a way.

            But I get that. I was very robust the other day with another Empath and I’m now ashamed of that. I thought I was being straight but I scared her. I didnt mean to. At all. She had wronged me and she got told. Not aggressively or with vindication. I’d never do that to another Empath. We’ve been through too much already.

            But the last fre days have taught me a salutary lesson. People are afraid of me. What really breaks my heart is that there is nothing to be afraid of with me. That makes me feel so incredibly lonely.

            I would never intentionally hurt another. Be it animal or human. If someone moves to hurt me, I respond in spades. I think that is what people sense. That breaks me. Because I percieve I am a fundamentally good and decent human. I am northern and I am at that time of my life where I dont put up with any shit.

            This is, of course troubling to many. I find that because people see a woman, not you, they react accordingly and when they get bit, they scurry away in fright. But to Monday, they deserved it. This fox bites.

            But not to you lovely. It would be fantastic to talk to another Empath. So yes, let’s do that at the weekend.

            Take care. You have my deepest respect x

    4. Lorelei says:

      I’m sorry Renarde. Your picture is really cute by the way.

      1. Renarde says:

        Thank you Lorelei. X

  24. Susan says:

    When I read this, my first reaction was that the N is needy, weak and vulnerable. Then I realized this was emotional thinking and me once again trying to use my world view to interpret a N’s behavior. A few months ago I wouldn’t have even known I was doing this. Maybe I’m getting it.

    You can know a textbook version of Ns but this kind of in-depth, back and forth attention to the minutia of the interactions paints an awesome picture. I’m just shaking my head that I could actually have felt pity for the never-ending process of fuel gathering the N endures.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is why this place provides the best information

    2. Lorelei says:

      Susan—I pity the pointless energy consumed by an unwitting person because it sucks up time from their life. It’s interesting to read this and see how it could be a real conversation. I won’t do this sort of banter any further. I’d rather poke my eyes out.

      1. Susan says:

        Lorelei – absolutely, “Sucks up time”. We have a finite number of resources and factors we can ever hope to have any control over. The older I get, the closer “time” moves to the top of my list of valuable resources.

  25. cogra002 says:

    I want to weigh in, but cannot remember what GP is, though I know my Narc terminology Fairly well.
    The main reason any of us stay or stayed too long was addiction. IMHO.
    I don’t think cigarette strength addiction, I think heroin strength. To me there is a big difference.
    I suspected many of us that are/were addicted to Narcs have other addictions, as well… whether it be cigarettes, food, weed, alcohol etc

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Golden Period.

      1. cogra002 says:

        Duh, of course. To me that’s when we got addicted to all-day dosing of Narc heroin. 💉
        That GP was intense. I felt like I was high the whole time.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You’re addicted before that.

        2. Violetta says:

          “Show him that you care just for him
          Do the things he likes to do
          Wear your hair just for him”

          Oh, going shopping with Wanna-Be Playuh Narc in my mind! “What will he say when he sees me in this?”


          1. Notme! says:

            – He said he liked my hair long, I’ll just get it trimmed
            – He will lurve this outfit for the beach

            – wear this because it’s out of your comfort zone
            – wear that so I can touch you when we’re out


    2. SMH says:

      I definitely have other addictions, cogra002. Almost died once due to one of them, a very long time ago. I quit that addiction on my own but once an addict, always an addict. I control it now. I don’t deny myself but I don’t go overboard either. It was that way towards the end with MRN. I had escaped the FR and was able to be in touch with him without any desire to return to the FR.

      1. cogra002 says:

        Once an addict, always an addict….. yes.
        Even if you’re sober at the moment.
        My friends who know my situation call it Narc- sober when I’m staying away.
        And “using again “ or “off the wagon “ or “hitting the Narc pipe” when I’m talking to him again.

        1. SMH says:

          cogra002, that’s amusing. None of my friends noticed, though I knew soon enough. I am never entirely sober but I accepted that about myself long ago. Maybe that’s why my NC rules are a bit loose.

        2. Violetta says:

          Cogra002, that is so true. If someone’s an alcoholic, he can’t just stop in for one beer like anyone else would, no matter how long it’s been. A recovering alcoholic is still an alcoholic, for the rest of his life.

          We can’t have “just a little narc hit,” a little social media surfing, just one confrontation for closure, etc. That’s like those Victorian ladies who sang “Lips that touch liquor will never touch mine,” then went home and guzzled Lydia Pinkham’s Vegetable Tonic.

          There’s a wonderful moment in The Importance of Being Earnest when a character recognizes a stain in a bag from the time a Temperance Beverage exploded. Her “Temperance Beverage” was fermenting.

    3. Violetta says:

      Methhead-level for me.
      Make a great country song:

      Ah’m the face of Meth
      When Ah smell yor breath
      Yew put me on the rack
      Yew broke mah heart
      Yew wuthless fart
      Oh darlin’, please come back

      1. cogra002 says:

        I wrote a Narc country song. I have to dig it out.
        It was good.

        1. Violetta says:

          Country songs, the blues, all the way back to medieval troubadours: it’s all “she/he done me wrong.” The empaths want the narc back, the narc wants to kill the Empath.

          Jimmie Rogers used to get letters asking him what Thelma did to him and begging him not to shoot her if he hadn’t done it already.

    4. santaann1964 says:

      Of course sometimes we are the same but like sour patch kids!

      1. Lorelei says:

        Those things are a dream. I can’t touch any for awhile. It’s ridiculous to eat something that makes your mouth hurt. The problem is that eating 3-4 won’t do that but no one only eats 3-4!

    5. BL says:

      I have zero addictions and honestly believe the narc is/was my first addiction. I understand the logic that I need to quit him cold turkey, yet I can’t bring myself to do it.

      1. Notme! says:

        What do you think is stopping you BL?

        1. BL says:

          Notme! I’ve made so many excuses that I don’t even know what the truth is anymore. I would probably say it’s because I am so physically attracted to him. I wanted this (friends with benefits) with him for many years, and I was so excited to finally have it that I can’t believe it went so spectacularly bad. He has never been insulting or angry – his version of mean is silent treatments – so that helps me stay too I suppose.

          1. SMH says:

            BL, That is what kept me around too. The physical attraction and his version of mean – not obvious. I’d suggest you go NC for awhile to get your ET under control. I did that for six months once and was then able to tell him no, that I did not want back into the FR. I even saw him and fooled around with him but my ET was low and I was able to escape for good.

          2. Supernova DE says:

            I felt the same way as you. Mine was MMRN so silence was his main manipulation. He was so extraordinarily passive aggressive about it that he always made an excuse for it too. “No I wasn’t ignoring you I got busy at work.” “I’m not mad babe I lost WiFi.” On and on I could give you so many examples.
            The problem with that is…it takes forever and a day for an empath to realize she’s being subjected to bad treatment. And then when you do figure that out (thanks HG), it’s difficult to overcome the ET because it still seems banal.
            SMH is right, some time NC will help knock down your emotions and be very helpful. Difficult to instigate but you’ll see how peaceful it is after a few days when there’s no need to check your phone, and the time between thoughts of him begins to increase.
            Good luck x

          3. cogra002 says:

            The physical attraction here too. There’s an intoxicating chemistry, even though he’s not what most would think is good looking.
            I don’t get that chemistry with anyone else currently, but this has happened before in my life. I can see it now

          4. K says:

            I found these comments very helpful. The chemistry is our addiction to the narcissist.

            RtotheN says:
            October 1, 2019 at 00:51
            Does a narcissist feel the same sexual chemistry with everyone? Also, if it’s so hard to give up control, how could a narc want to be tied up, told what to do and so on

            HG Tudor says:
            October 1, 2019 at 07:05
            There is no sexual chemistry. There is the chemistry of addiction to control and fuel. You may be told that there is a sexual chemistry by the narcissist, that is a lie.

            NarcAngel says:
            October 1, 2019 at 13:10
            Thank you for confirming there is no sexual chemistry with a narc (in a romantic sense). Many people state that and I find it confusing and misleading. The narc is performing to get their fuel needs met. The empath enjoys the act and projects feelings into it assuming that they are reciprocated. There may be compatibility in the types of activities but there is no chemistry as in the blending of feelings and intimacy. It’s wishful thinking but dangerous because it allows one to remain stuck thinking there is/was something deeper. They are masturbating with you and manipulating you, not blending with you to create chemistry. Your book Sex covers this and should be mandatory reading.

            HG Tudor says:
            October 1, 2019 at 13:15
            You are welcome and I agree with your observations, NA.


          5. BL says:

            cogra002, yes the chemistry! It made me light headed. I think that’s a big part of it too. When we first got together he would talk about the unbelievable chemistry, so when he decided he only wanted fantasy sex instead of real sex with me (for a multitude of lame reasons) it was/is hard to let go of the WHY?! But some very smart person on another thread said, “someone who wants to fuck with your head instead of fuck you is a narcissist” and I keep bringing my thoughts to that and their displeasure with intimacy. That’s the closest I’ll come to fully understanding.
            And a life not filled with constantly checking my messages sounds blissful, Supernova DE.

          6. alexissmith2016 says:

            Just reading through these comments re sex. I recall how revolutionary this was when I read the book.

            It was the huge chunk of information that was still missing for me and it was mindblowing to say the least! Now I acknowledge and accept it.

            I never even got close to having sex with mine before he started the devaluation. thank bloody god we never did! All tied in to his illness. As soon as he had secured my love, the devaluation begun immediately thereafter. I recall reading (by another author pre HG) that this would mean I was transitional – also hurtful at the time, selfishly I was relieved to observe that he treated all of his IPSSs in the same manner, some younger and more beautiful, others not. Sadly his treatment of each of them was far more cruel and harsh because they stuck around until discard. He was incredibly cruel yet all others who were not IPSSs were largely treated well and he was considered an ‘upstanding member of the community’.

            Does this make him a narcissistic psychopath? because usually IPSSs have an elongated golden period

            I suspect he is a mid although he most certainly has awareness given the comments he has made, “You’re prey and I’m the hunter”, “I own you”. He just thinks he is more knowledgable than he actually is.

            I’m not abdicating myself either, because I would have gone on to have sex with him had he not begun the devaluation. And despite not sealing the relationship sexually it was tragically emotionally painful to a level I have never ever experienced before.

          7. BL says:

            Alexis – We had a few months GP and had sex just once. Devaluation began that very night (delayed responses, no more suggestive messages). I assumed he wasn’t attracted to me in person or felt guilty, so I just decided to give him space. But he kept hooking me back in. That’s part of why it took me so long to figure out he was a narc – I had never even heard of it before. Hindsight I now see the narc traits in our only encounter; things I wrote off to nerves or guilt; but I’m certain now he just doesn’t really enjoy physical contact.

          8. NarcAngel says:

            He doesn’t enjoy the physical contact. It’s not you. If you haven’t yet read HG’s book Sex, you must. It, along with Fuel, Fury, and Sitting Target are what I consider the basics and a great start to understanding the narcissist/empath dynamic. They are a quick read, but packed with clear and concise information that will answer many questions for you.

  26. Kim e says:

    HG. I believe you told me once that when we escape/go NC the n can not disengage. So in their mind are we forever not only in the narcissistic relationship but also in whatever the formal relationship was at the time of escape/nc?
    They think we ( the victim) are just taking a “break”?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      If we end the formal relationship, we have disengaged from you.
      If you end the formal relationship, you have escaped from us (meaning we cannot now disengage as you “got in first”.

      In both instances, the Narcissistic Relationship persists.

      1. Kim e says:

        HG. Thank you
        Another question if I may…. I thought the status of IPPS, IPSS were formal relationships. So how do they end if we escape? If once an IPPS or IPSS aren’t we always?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They end because of the escape, as stated.

          1. SMH says:

            But HG, haven’t you said before that one cannot go from being IPPS or IPSS to NISS (which I tried to do) because once an IPPS/IPSS always an IPPS/IPSS? It sound like the FR is always the framework if there is further engagement.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The label “girlfriend” is the formal relationship in “your world”. That can end. The narcissist may end the formal relationship or you may do so.
            The person labelled as girlfriend, may also have the label “IPPS Appliance”. That is the narcissistic relationship. Once you become our appliance, you will always be an appliance, but the narcissistic relationship label can alter. Thus you may begin as a NITS, then become NISS, then IPSS, then IPPS, then Former IPPS. Through all of these labels you remain an appliance, you remain the “possession” in the unconscious mind of the narcissist. In the formal relationship you were an acquaintance, then a friend, then someone who was being dated, then the girlfriend and then the ex. When you moved from acquaintance (NITS) to friend (NISS), the formal relationship of acquaintance ended and was replaced by the formal relationship of friend. The narcissistic relationship of being an appliance remained, the label moved from NITS to NISS. When the girlfriend became the ex, the formal relationship ended, but the narcissistic one persisted (Former IPPS).

          3. SMH says:

            HG, Thanks for that clear explanation. I got it now. I realized when I was trying to be NISS that I was still an appliance but without the benefits!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You’re welcome

          5. AnneB says:

            SMH, so reading H.G.’s explanation here in the comments I am “Former IPPS Appliance” from the ex’s perspective. I will remain as that from his POV even if I never interact with him in any way ever again. From my perspective he is my ex or N. ex. who I intend to avoid for the rest of my life.

          6. HG Tudor says:


          7. SMH says:

            AnneB, Funny how they think we are the ones who cannot move on!

          8. AnneB says:

            SMH, I would hate it if I thought ex were to have the thought “she cannot move on” because at the moment it would be true. Fortunately, I know that he doesn’t think about me at all and I feel quite confident that in my case the thought has never crossed his mind. Like you, I do not want to be in a FR with this person again. Additionally, I do not wish to see him. But I have not moved on.

            Contrast: Ex Ns only think about we former intimate appliances when a hoover trigger occurs and then, if the HEC is not met, that thought will be fleeting. Though the narcissistic relationship persists for former intimate appliances, our exes are in fact moved on in the sense that they are unconcerned with us, don’t think about us, don’t analyse us and don’t seek to understand an empathic perspective/empathic defense mechanism in order to stop thinking about us. The narcissistic relationship in essence means that should they one day think about us owing to a HT, they may decide to initiate a hoover (HEC depending) as that is what they consider they are entitled to do. In the interim? Moved on.

          9. SMH says:


            I understand but I am not sure I completely agree. First, there are many fewer narcs in the world than there are empaths (and normals). It makes sense that we would think about and try to analyze them whereas they might not do the same. They have encountered many of us. We have not encountered many of them.

            Second, I occasionally look up old flames as I am sure everyone does. I might even think about them for awhile, and then forget about it. That is similar to a HT without the HEC being met, no? Similar to what narcs do.

            Third, during several periods of NC MRN hoovered me online repeatedly, on a schedule, on three different platforms and left evidence. Obsession? Attempt to get me to come back? (It worked a few times.) I don’t know but I did not do it to him. If I looked him up online I would not leave evidence. If I wanted to be in touch, I would contact him. If I wanted him to know that I looked him up, I would tell him. I was honest. I don’t think they entirely ‘forget’ excellent sources of fuel. It just manifests differently than it does with us.

            We could also look at it this way – we are able to talk about them here and research how their brains work, and move on at the same time. Why are we able to do this? Because not everything we do is related to obtaining fuel. I, for one, am interested in the psychology of it all and I don’t often think about MRN except when he hoovers or I am here. I was very attached to him and I occasionally miss him, but I miss a lot of people. It doesn’t mean I cannot live my life at the same time.

            Curious to hear your thoughts.

          10. AnneB says:

            SMS, I wasn’t suggesting anything about your personal situation, I was just responding to your general comment about Ns thinking that we’re the ones who can’t move on and how well yeah, in my case, that happens to be true at the moment (obviously I’m not alone here but aware that your situ and others’ quite different in that regard). And in my situ, my ex N does not think about me and, from my perspective, he has “moved on”, although I also understand that the N relationship persists from his POV (and we are talking an unconscious ‘given’ here). That is not difficult for me to understand as ex’s sense of entitlement is very obvious (now recognised for what it is).

            I do not think the behaviour of empaths/normals after a break up has much, if anything, to do with hoovering, HEC etc, because those terms are only relevant in the context of the N dynamic. I prefer not to confuse myself by applying those sorts of terms to non-Ns. An N hoovers for fuel and control. An empath/normal may get in touch with an ex but not for those reasons. It’s the motivation that matters and the pattern of behaviour. I wouldn’t use the term myself when thinking about past relationships with non-Ns. The behaviour of a disengaged or escaped empath in terms of say contacting ex to talk, social media spying etc are not hoovers.

            Because for an N it is all about fuel and control, they do not “attach”. A lack of emotional empathy negates the possibility of mutuality in an intimate relationship. Your ex’s hoovering would have been about control. Online is the most energy efficIent method.

            I don’t miss my ex in the true sense of the word . I did love him though at the time the relationship took place.

            My view is that the Narcissistic relationship
            persists but for the N it has little to do with not moving on from the empath/normal perspective. I’ve formed that view from my education here and it rings true in my personal experience with ex.

            I am glad all is working out/has worked out for you with your ex N and that you’ve got past that particular entanglement.

          11. AnneB says:

            I’m not surprised you didn’t do it to him SMH, you’re not an N! Online hoover though is a classic low-energy action and to my mind is a great example of how hoovers are about fuel, which in turn is about control. So in your case there was an HT (perhaps a thought? but anyway, you’ll know what the HT was), and the HEC were met. I wasn’t commenting on your personal situation but generally in my second paragraph about former IP appliances and the Ns persepctive re the persisting N relationship. I was commenting about my personal situation in my first paragraph.

          12. SMH says:

            Hi AnneB, Maybe I wasn’t very clear but I was just trying to say that ‘reaching out’ – if that is what we might call it (hoovers etc) are evidence of not moving on. The motivations and rhythms might indeed be different but the ‘not moving on’ is somewhat similar. MRN once said to me, ‘I do think about you when we’re not together.’ I said ‘I know you do,’ and I did know that he did because otherwise, why would he contact me? Of course he had to be thinking about me. Even if the impulses come from HTs, they still direct the narc’s attention towards us and we cannot know if every HT results in a hoover either. There could be a lot of HTs that do not because the HEC is not met. So yes, I know it is all about control and not about mutuality, but the desire for fuel still results in thoughts of ‘the other.’ I think you might mean that the N does not hurt once the FR is over, or the N does not care, while the empath normally does. I agree with that but to me that is not the same as moving on or not. How do you know that your ex N does not think about you?

          13. AnneB says:

            SMH, How do I know he doesn’t think about me? I just base that on probability. I have not appeared in any of his spheres of influence except possibly if he has had a fleeting thought regarding me , but if that were the case then fortunately the HEC weren’t met. You were clear in your comments and I see where you are coming from. The important thing for all of us is that we learn what we can here to avoid future entanglements and understand what has gone before. H.Gs work is unique in offering that opportunity!

          14. SMH says:

            I see, AnneB. I am basing my own interpretation on my knowledge of what came before – old patterns. Ns are really routinized – they have ruts in their brains just like we do! I wish you continued healing!

          15. Violetta says:

            NarcAngel: we’ve been doing our bit to send some of that traffic here. It’s a mixed blessing: we want to get the word out about Narcsite (and on a personal level, I’d like the people who refer to Meghan Markle as “The American” or “The Actress” to know that neither of those things is the problem), but of course it’s going to cut into HG’s time sorting through the additional comments.

            I’ll try not to leave Mahabharata-length comments. I do love reading the comments on HG’s articles: it’s like Lit Crit, where you all read the same poem or short story, but different people focus on different aspects of it. I may not have picked up on a particular detail until I see someone else’s reaction to it, or someone connects it with personal history.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome to continue to comment in the normal fashion. If you write it, I will moderate it.

          17. SMH says:

            Thank you, HG. I can be very long-winded but those comments are normally not directed to you. With you I try to be concise!

          18. HG Tudor says:

            That is appreciated.

          19. Violetta says:

            “If you write it, I will moderate it.”

            If HG builds it, they will come.

    2. SMH says:

      Kim e, That is what I sometimes think – that he thinks I am just taking a break and will be back. It happened so many times before. I want to know how much time has to pass before he realizes that I am not coming back! When will I know that he knows that it is O-V-E-R!

      1. Kim e says:

        NC sucks. I am having such a hard time with it. I want just a have a good time go out for meals kinda relationship with him. And then LT kicks in and says why….not only is he a narc but he is married…(not that that fact means anything to him it should to me)
        So tired of going back and forth……..light at end of tunnel there and then gone.
        I also feel bad always dumping on you.
        I have never not been able to stick to a decision I have made before and this just seems insurmountable.

        1. BL says:

          Kim e,
          You are a far step ahead of me. I’m shelf IPSS (We both have other partners) and I can’t bring myself to even attempt NC. Once I block in facebook, there’s no going back. It’s so final. I also know I can watch him online in other ways, so I would not be accomplishing much by just getting rid of the one method. Me making excuses, I know.
          What is your NC that you can block on and off? Just phone?

          1. Kim e says:

            You will eventually get to a point where you will take the step to block him. He is blocked everywhere. When I unblock, yes, I only unblock on the phone as texting is our main form of communication. If I had to pay for every time I have blocked and unblocked int he last year, I would be living in my car. He gets his hoover attempt’s thru my work phone.
            Be gentle on yourself. You will know when it is time and you have reached the end of your rope. I have been NC a couple of times….the longest was this last one at 14 weeks. Sounds like an eternity to us but it is a drop in the bucket. But each time I went NC, broke it, had contact with N and then blocked again, it got easier. My LT became stronger.
            Good luck on your journey…it is a long and very windy road.

          2. Violetta says:

            “I prefer and appreciate succinct communication and I am an empath. Succinct communication can be very effective and more impactful. The human attention span is 7 seconds before a diversion takes place.”

            AKA: “Shaddup, awready.”

            Nah, HG is Narcdom’s Mozart. There are exactly the right number of notes (words)

          3. FYC says:

            I agree with that sentiment, Violetta; I was referring to comments, and some of mine run long too, so I am not casting aspersions, I simply appreciate the ability to communicate well succinctly.

        2. SMH says:

          Kim e,

          You don’t have to feel badly about dumping on me. Remember that I jumped in to a convo between you and CIF because I saw me in you, and I still do. What do you want from him? A laugh? Someone you think cares about you? I also missed what I thought was a friendship. Sometimes I still talk to him in my head because there are things about my life that he understood quite well when no one else did. There were also things that I understood about him that no one else did. He has to live without me too. In the meantime, I am reminded that there are other interesting people in the world and I will meet more of them. The loss is more his than mine because I am free. The same can be said for you. It is okay to mourn the loss. Just don’t romanticize it (which we all tend to do).

          It is really hard but it is not insurmountable. The light at the end of the tunnel that keeps going out will come back stronger and brighter each time. I promise.


          1. Kim e says:

            OH YEA… just barged into our converstion and took it over…it is all coming back to me….LOL I am glad you did.
            You ask me if I want someone I think cares for me. Yet you tell me that you talk to him in your head as he understood stuff about you that others did not. Wasn’t that just him mirroring back to you?
            You say he has to live without you too. Do you think that makes a difference to him/
            The loss is more his than mine….how do you figure?
            If I am correct, your N was a MRN. Just trying to understand your perspective on why you think the statements you said are true? That he understood you? That he feels the loss more than you.
            You are correct about it coming back stronger. After my little experiment, my ET was sky rocketing. Went out this afternoon and evening and yes he is there in my mind, but I also found myself thinking…”WOW, I havent thought about him in 2 hours”.
            Slowly but surely I will get there. Hurts like hell, but I will get there.
            How was NYE? Any thing exciting happen? Are you back to work?
            I am so happy the holidays are over. I hate them with all the hate my empathic heart can conjure up

          2. SMH says:

            Kim e, I hate the holidays too. Either there is too much pressure or it is too boring. I had a combo. I didn’t do anything for NYE – just early on but I don’t like NYE. I am not back to work yet. Few weeks still and my son has been here for awhile now.

            MRN did understand certain things but I am also aware that we did NOT really know each other. Still, IPPS obviously doesn’t know him either. He is unknowable. He had about three different personalities – the two I saw most often I called Mr Lonely Egghead and Mr Finance Getting Blowjobs in the Airport with My Breakfast. I preferred Lonely Egghead but I usually got Finance Blow Job. This was before I even knew he was an N but it all fits. I got tired of trying to create a safe space for him to be himself, not realizing that there was no ‘self’ to be.

            What I meant is that *I* think that way, not that I know that he thinks that way. I go back and forth between imagining that he has forgotten to believing that he could not. But I DO know what I said to him – that he had what he said he wanted – his stability. And that I had what I said I wanted – my freedom. Yet he was still unhappy whereas I was not. I could not make him happy because I was not the source of his unhappiness, that he and IPPS were both in denial, that he was bored and she had no interests or direction, that he could not explore his erotic or intellectual sides with her, and that he was fucking up his kids. I also said that if he did not leave his marriage, I was sure he would find my replacement. ‘I won’t respect it but it’s not my life.’

            Whether or not he IS unhappy, he thinks that I think that he is. It’s all mind games but he started it, not me. He forced my hand, I saw an opening and I kicked him (figuratively speaking). Why? Because I wanted to win. Did I? I don’t know but I sure let fly in the end. I even told him he was a psychopath and that in another life he could have been a serial killer. Then I added that I had a feather in my cap for having slept with a psychopath. I acted like he was royalty while I was insulting him.

            I still have guilt because he rarely SAID anything unkind and he was mostly unaware. But he was so blind to me that he did not heed my multiple warnings about what happens when I reach my limits. Of course he lacked empathy and was mind blind, but I did not know that at the time. Maybe had I found this site sooner I would have handled things differently but as it is, I think the guilt is what keeps me attached. Maybe *I* want to be forgiven?

            Long winded but I hope that answers some of your questions about how I think. Did I do things I regret? Yes. But everything is a story we tell ourselves. You can make your narrative anything you want it to be. After all, you will never know what yours truly thinks either, right? He will either have a different perspective or he will be dissembling. You will never know which one, so your truth is the only one that should matter to you. What is your truth? What do you honestly think happened between you? Those are real questions, not rhetorical ones. I know you find it hard to talk about but here is the place to work it out.

            Glad you went out last night. So did I. Interesting evening but nothing exciting. Just hanging out with some old friends trying to find something decent to eat at midnight. What did you do? xo

          3. Kim e says:

            I jsut have to ask you to describe Mr Lonely Egghead and Mr Finance Getting Blowjobs in the Airport with My Breakfast. I litterally laughed out loud at Mr. Finance…the mind visual was quite amusing.
            The 2 descriptions sound so far apart from each other
            What is my truth? My truth is a fell hook line and sinker. I wanted to marry him. I could seriously feel myself melting into him. He was good at protraying himself as being hurt before without giving any details so I did not push him. There was sitting c;lose, my hand on his delicious thigh, hugging but never any skin to skin. There was always clothes inbetween. Sigh…I type this and my LT screams tt me ARE YOU NUTS!!!????? Get the F away from him and I make no movement. Sigh……
            I went to my girlfriends and made sugar scrubs…lemon, lavender, patchuli, peperment. Then watched a film on the making of Dirty Dancing, the out to have a beer and burgers.

          4. SMH says:

            Kim e, Wait – you mean you never had sex with W?? But you wanted to marry him? (Nothing wrong with marrying someone with whom you have not had sex – people used to do it all the time, right?) I don’t think you are nuts either way, just maybe projecting somewhat. Strange how we feel so safe with narcissists, right? Maybe because they seem so confident?

            Mr Finance was cold and focused on control/keeping me in my place (on the shelf). He was very curt, the way HG often is (which used to trigger me). Mr Egghead was lonely, boyish, chatty and sweet. Mr Finance showed himself virtually. But Mr Egghead showed himself in person and we never had any problems when we were together – we had great fun. It was only after we would part that Mr Finance would immediately take over and we’d have problems. MRN once said that I was not the first to point out that he seemed like two different people, so he knew, he just wasn’t aware of doing it? I don’t know. It was mighty weird, to put it mildly. Kind of a split personality and I could not handle it.

            Scrub sounds delish, though I know you did not eat it! I went out with a girlfriend last night too – had Japanese and wandered around our old hometown – that is when we visited her mother, who gave me the echinacea. Her grandfather was a painter/illustrator and all of his marvelous work was up all over the place, so that was a nice surprise.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I am not curt, I am succinct and direct.

          6. SMH says:

            I am guessing that is what MRN would say too. Empaths use a lot of filler words, maybe for nuance rather than for efficiency.

          7. SMH says:

            Also, we interpret styles differently. Direct is often seen as rude.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Not when set in context. 1. You need a direct approach to deal with narcissism and its effects. 2. I don’t have time, therefore succinct is required. Outside of context, I understand your point.

          9. SMH says:

            Yes, a lot of it is about context. But if you are in an intimate relationship with someone who doesn’t take the time to provide context and nuance to their words (in writing only), that can be a problem! It is one reason I thought MRN had Aspergers. He did ask me once to be more direct but I think he really meant more literal, which is hard for me. I spent a lot of time explaining things and going around and around in circles. But that was all before I landed here.

            The thing is, I knew he could write and be expressive, because he would when he wanted me back in the FR. But once we were there, the curtness returned. For him it was not about efficiency. It was a form of avoidance/withdrawal, which in turn was about control, right?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            I agree with you with regard to the IR, I was explaining the basis for me being direct as opposed to curt in my communications here.

            With regard to your question, the curtness you describe is indicative of haughtiness, entitlement and a lack of emotional empathy which work together to effect control, as you suggest.

          11. SMH says:

            I get the difference, HG. It’s just that someone like me landing here who is triggered by – let’s say – ‘terseness’ might interpret your responses in a way you do not intend. It scared me for awhile but I don’t mind it anymore because I am RECOVERED! 🙂 (almost)

            Thanks for affirming that MRN’s curtness was a control thing. I should know by now that so was everything he did.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Understood but that interpretation is your interpretation and is thus on you. I do not do the fluffy and the handholding, that is misleading.

          13. SMH says:

            Yes, I know now. And now I also know that a triggered reaction is ET speaking.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Well done.

          15. SMH says:

            Thank you but the credit goes to you.

          16. HG Tudor says:


          17. SMH says:

            Humble as always 🙂

          18. HG Tudor says:

            I know, I only giver you humble because you love it so.

          19. SMH says:

            It does amuse me

          20. Kim e says:

            SMH…LOL. God this made me laugh. Yes we had sex after I allowed myself to be hoovered back in.
            I hae to go to a meeting but W is Mr Egghead to a tee!!!!! That is why I enjoy being with him…fun!!!! He was never MR Finance.
            I will be back later.

          21. SMH says:

            Kim e, Phew! Okay! Still, if W is a military guy he must have a bit of that coldness/control thing about him, no?

          22. Kim e says:

            I am sure he takes no shit and it is by the book. He used to give me shit as he would follow me home in our cars and I would not use my turn signal. “how is the person behind you supposed to know what you intend to do?” I would reply “YOU ARE BEHIND ME…..You know I am turning”.
            He is very…this is the way it is and there are NO deviations.

          23. SMH says:

            Kim e, You mean W is rigid and routinized? I think that is typical of a certain kind of N. MRN was that way too. Everything had to be the same all the time.

          24. Kim e says:

            SMH….yes routine was important. Ithink that is how he knew his fuel would always be met. Work out on these days, home at night the other nights. He told me fromt he start Saturdays were his. Of course at the time I did not know they were “theirs”. 9 times out of 10 they are gone all day Saturday and home all Sunday. Very very very rarely go out but do a couple vacations a year. He has her locked down as tight as a virgins ass. Cant find a bit about her any where on line, except where he is connected. Like on the old addresses for him which she inherited when they got married and the credit melded together.
            I think that is totaly a MRN thing.

          25. SMH says:

            Kim e, Good point about routines – the fuel thing is not spontaneous. It is planned. They want IPPS’s like that – otherwise they wouldn’t marry them, right? But then they get bored and need fuel injections. MRN tried to break out of his rigidity by accusing me of lacking spontaneity. Major projection.

            When I found IPPS’s IG, I had no sense of his married life. My first thought was oh, he is bored – because honestly I found IPPS and his kids boring None of them had anything to say and IPPS seemed like just another daughter (in my ‘dear John’ letter I said it seemed like he had four children rather than three). She had some technical artistic talent but no ideas. She’d try to take arty pictures but they were derivative and trite. His daughters seemed like airheads, though I cut them some slack.

            But unlike W and IPPS, MRN and IPPS were like two ships passing in the night. He didn’t even know what she did all day. She told him he needed a hobby so he would do sports on Saturdays and come to mine. She volunteered on Sundays. They were therefore apart most weekends, and during the week he was either traveling or in his office 12 hours a day. She’d often post on IG late in the evening, while he would be in bed by 9:30. Only rarely did they do anything together, usually with a kid. But hey, it was not challenging, and that is key whether they keep them locked up like W does or they don’t care what they do because they know they will always be back.

          26. Kim e says:

            I just got all excited as I received a package at work. It was FREE samples of Purell. All sizes and different applicators. I do not use anitbacterial stuff. I dont believe in it. I believe the software company I use at work gave them my infor as their name was on the PO number on the invoice. How stange. Send me a new computer or socks. Hand sanitizer???REALLY!!!!?????

            I cant say if the fuel thing is spontaneous or planned cuz I do not know what they feel when the levels are getting low. They must instictively know that a CIPPS is “great” due to the urgency to marry one CIPPS but not another. It is all soeculation on our part. I believe it is all instinctive just like ever thing else a MRN does. Like HG says, they dont take the time to think, it is just pure instinct that kicks in.
            I believe that in the 2.5 years I have known W, his IPPS has gone out by herself 2 maybe 3 times and he has been gone with the military all those times. I am sure she was given a time limit she could be out and the people she could go with had to be approved also. I have witnesssed her coming home at night, I assume after work, Our townhomes have single car garages. He parks on the street when he gets home and she is not home yet. If she is home, he pulls into the driveway as she is in the garage. (that is how I know he is gone)
            Anyway…..she gets home from work, the garage door goes up, she pulls in and he pulls in right behind her. I assume she tells him where she is in her travels so that he is in his car and waiting for her when she gets there. Gym together….always together…unless of course he is with someone else…LOL
            W has a daughter…….

          27. SMH says:

            Kim e, That is strange. I don’t use it either, so you cannot send it to me. Sorry! Give it away in your office?

            I think Ns feel panic when fuel is low. Remember, narcissism is a coping mechanism. I saw this with my ExLH, though I didn’t know he was an N. He is a nomad (MRN is an anchor). My ExLH left his first wife and two daughters, moved in with someone else and her kids, she left a few years later and a few months later he met me. Married me a few years later and then left me (he would say that I left him) and moved in with someone else and her kids. He was constantly trying to recapture the childhood he didn’t have, hence the coping. But he did it by abandoning his partners when he didn’t feel like he was getting fueled up properly, just as his father had abandoned his mother and him and his brothers (my ex was 12). They were homeless for a few years when he was growing up.

            I never knew enough about MRN’s childhood to say what triggered his disorder. What do you know about W’s? And how old is his daughter?

          28. Kim e says:

            I keep meaning to ask you something. Both you and CIF have told me not to worry about going NC as W is not going anywhere. This seems to be an oxymoron in my mind. Can I ask for more explanation please? And thank you.
            I think that N’s and E’s have a lot in common as far as what has formed them. E’s went down the path of “this hurt me and I dont want it to hurt anyone else so I am going to help them. I feel their pain”. N’s went down the path of “this hurt me and I will be damned if I will allow it to ever hurt me again. F everyone”.
            HG said something very interesting in the Knowing HG audio I listened to. I cant share it but it really sparked my interest in the N and “feelings”. It is something I would never have thought I would have heard him say.
            In the long run we are all just looking for love/fuel.
            I believe W’s mom is a narc. She is a gyno (I will give you time to stop laughing or close your slacked jaw). I say this because the few times he talked about her I got the impression nothing was good enough. I am not sure about dad as we never really discussed.
            His daughter 16 in October. He told me that the “First time” he had sex at 22 she got pregnant and ruined his life. I have seen some of his replies to his daughter on FB and they are as you would say very curt. I can just picture her cowering in the corner even tho it was on a computer. He says she uses him for his money and the things he buys her. I would say then dont buy them and he would say But she is my little girl. Most of what he told me about her I verified as being true as far as school activities and jobs. Mom lives in a bad area so the daughter moved in with his parents. (she is screwed)

          29. SMH says:

            Kim e, So the daughter is from a previous relationship? And he blamed her mother for getting pregnant and ruining his life? Did he also tell you that she did it on purpose??

            A gyno is kind of funny! I have no idea what MRN’s parents do/did. I seem to recall him telling me about a stint in California when he was young – his father was also some sort of doctor? But I am blanking. He also once told me that his grandmother was exceptionally cheap – I think a lot of family money from that side. He talked mostly about his siblings. Maybe that should tell me something – sibling rivalries?

            He seemed okay with his daughters, though he did tell me one was ‘nothing special.’ He also triangulated me with them from the get go and IPPS would use them as sentries – when she was not around one of the daughters would be ‘baby sitting’ MRN. They are very close in age and one reason I never wanted to be primary.

            Yes I realize that we all want the same thing but it is the reciprocity that is missing with Ns. They cannot fuel themselves up so they use other people and they are so preoccupied with their own needs that they cannot give what they receive. It is soul sucking and demeaning to be an appliance!

            NC – meaning if you are tempted to break NC, put it off by telling yourself that W is not going anywhere and you can do it tomorrow. Tomorrow you tell yourself the same thing. That is what I mean, anyway. Not sure if CIF means the same.

          30. Kim e says:

            I can’t say there were distinct personalities but sometimes he ‘looked’ different. One time he told me he would not be on the train. I sat there watching a movie on my phone not thinking anything of it. When I got up and turned he was sitting kitty corner from me looking very tired droopy face and ashen. I was shocked to see him. He said he got on and instantly fell asleep. I did not believe him.
            Another time he came into the warming house at the station in the morning which he never did. He looked at my and mouthed good morning. I mouthed it back but I was thinking why does he look so short today?!
            Or there was only 1 time I saw him unshaven……messy unshaven. Most of the time he had a “beard” but this morning he looked like he had been up all night. Had his glasses on….hadn’t even put in his contacts. Maybe it had been a brutal devaluation night and he was up all night. But his nice guy personality never changed
            My mother’s last husband was a fantastic artist. He had numerous shows. I believe my mother died in 2018 and I just heard he is now in assisted living. No idea what happened to his art. It totally took over the garage
            Could eat the scrub if we didn’t put spaying it. Sure does look and smell good. Want some? I will mail it to the mayors office in NYC and you can pick it up
            Smooches 😘🧚🏻‍♂️🏋️‍♀️

          31. SMH says:

            Kim e, The mayor’s office. I lol’ed. Thank you for the thought! You did not know your mother died in 2018? I know you left home young but I don’t think I knew that you had no contact with your mother. When was the last time you saw her? Are you ever tempted to track down her last husband?

            W, well, some of that is pretty weird, like getting on the train, sitting near you and not alerting you after he lied? So you did notice some ‘off’ things about him. Think harder! I only saw MRN once in public. He always came to my house and we never went out. I once asked him if we could do something because we had no context for each other. He asked me what I wanted to do and I said I did not care. Go grocery shopping or sit on a bus and take it to end of the line. We came close a few times, but it never happened. The only thing I really regret is allowing myself to be boxed in like that. It probably wouldn’t have made much of a difference and in some ways it was a comforting little bubble, but it made me feel even more objectified.

          32. Kim e says:

            I had contct with mom. On and off for her whole life. Last saw her in 2015(?) 2016(?) I always looked for her approval but finally figured 48 hours was the max I am spending with this bitch. I know she died in 2018 but I could not tell you when. It did not mean anything to me. I creid because when her husband called to tell me she died he was crying and when I see crying or obviously hear crying…… geser empath just has an auto tear turner onner!!!! Her husband lives in Florida, is 91 and his daughter moved him to assisted living. The last time I talked to him was when he called me about her. I had known him for about 40 years but we just tolerated each other because he thought I was never “nice” to her….BARF!!!!!!!!!!
            For my 17th birthday in April…I was still in high school…..she bought me luggage and told me “I bought a 1 bedroom condo”. In other words see ya. OMG dont get me started…….
            It was nice to go out with W even after I knew I was a DLS. Made me feel…pretend….like I (it) mattered.

          33. SMH says:

            Aw Kim e, You matter to a lot of people, including to me! I have a friend whose mother kicked her out at 17 too because the mother’s bf did not want her there. They have a decent relationship now – my friend takes care of her – but it took a lot of work to get there and I don’t think I would be as generous. I also left home at 17 (kind of sent away kind of went on my own) and when I saw my mother again after a year, I was angry!

            My birthday is in April too. Are you a Taurus or an Aires?

          34. Kim e says:

            I am Aries Sun, Gemini moon and venus and Pisces rising.
            Thnaks for the kind words about mattering. It is comforting and so dishaertneing at the same time to think that people I have never met and never will care about me more then the person that gave me life did.
            Bad weather this weekend….rain, snow, ice, sleet starting Friday night and all day and night Saturday. Not going anywhere. Getting washing machine fixed and that is it. Hope my LT holds out. Being bored makes it hard.
            You have plans?

          35. SMH says:

            Kim e, You have your kids too – don’t get all hung up on your mom. Mine is pretty uncaring too – well, she is an N. She mostly cares so that she doesn’t have to care – that is, she cannot deal with anyone’s problems because everything revolves around her.

            Sounds like a good weekend to stay in. I have a bunch of stuff but nothing fun, fun. I am traveling next week and mostly need to prepare for that. I am also still fighting this head cold but maybe I will get to the gym today. I realized last night how avoidant I was being in all areas of my life. Almost paralyzed. I don’t blame MRN because I think he was a symptom of my avoidance rather than a cause (mm and all – no need to worry about a future etc). But I need to work on it this year.

            My son is also an Aires. I am a Taurus. I don’t know anything beyond that!

            Hope your washing machine gets fixed. Come here if you are tempted to break NC and read about Meghan Markle. Fascinating! Smooches!

          36. Kim e says:

            Believe me…not hung up on mom at all. Feeling come out when I talk about her otherwise she is put in her compartment where she has been my whole life.
            How is the head cold? CAN YOU HEAR THIS!!!!??????
            OH we dont want to talk about the washing machine. Lets just say the lady on the phone that had the misfortune of answering after they cancelled my appointment got an ear full. I was so pissed my true inner bitch came out. Please I am in a foul mood due to NC. Long story short, I have to ask my boss to allow me to work form home this coming Friday or take a PTO day.
            Thoughts of future…..I can say I have never really done that. I am just kinda a fly by the seat of my pants kinda person. I do make sure the $$$$ is there for when my pants take me on the retirement journey.
            The future for me right now is getting thru this NC and making vacation plans for this coming year. Hoping to still go on the Alaskan cruise with my son but he started a new job 1/6 so not sure where that stands. My friend Kathi is retiring in June so we will run away somewhere and do something. She had cancer so all stopped for a couple years but this year we will pick up where we left off with our travels. A lot of the time it was just long weekends. But we have been talking about a wine country tour in CA. We will see.
            You have vacation plans? What is something you always wanted to do that got shelved and never happened? Could that be resurrected? I wanted to join the Navy (too old) or be a nun ( too everything…LOL)

          37. SMH says:

            Kim e, Head cold is in my lungs now so I am coughing a lot. But I can HEAR you! I don’t think about vacations – I know that sounds weird but I’ve always traveled a lot so it just doesn’t occur to me. I know what I am doing through August and it involves a lot of to and fro. But I would go on that Alaska cruise with you if I could, as I have always wanted to go to Alaska. OM would have gone with me for sure. Oh well. There is otherwise only one thing on my bucket list but MRN used it to suck me back in, so I don’t like to talk about it.

            Somehow I cannot imagine you in the Navy and even less as a nun!

            I have to run but will catch you later. Hope you are having a good day and that ET is under control, washing machine or no washing machine.

          38. Kim e says:

            SMH. OK. You can stop badgering me. I reblocked him. Let’s try to break the last NC length. Here comes feeling like shit again

          39. SMH says:

            Good for you, Kim e! That’s huge! Your waves of ET DO pass – you just need to find a way to redirect your thoughts when you feel it taking over so you don’t do anything rash. I used to keep a mood journal for that purpose. Hugs!

          40. Kim e says:

            Thanks. I think I will by a wine for each day of the week…different colors. How much is gone from each bottle will tell me how my mood started and how it ended.
            OR I will just bug the hell out of you.

          41. SMH says:

            Kim e, Both! I only hope I can tell the difference between wildly drunk and elevated ET. I have to run but will catch you later. Have a good day. Smooches.

          42. Kim e says:

            ET is so strange. I already can feel “withdrawal” in the form of teary eyes and sugar cravings from stress. It is all internal stuff that I probably would not think twice about except for the circumstances.
            Hope you ahd a good day.
            Hows the ears???? HUH????????????

          43. SMH says:

            Kim e, Huh? lol. I met up with a friend and he had to stand to my right so I could hear him. It’s funny walking around NYC like this because everything is muffled and I get the feeling that a spaceship lifted away half the people or they were replaced with quiet aliens.

            ET is cortisol. That is why you feel the withdrawals. Cortisol is good in small doses but bad in larger and consistent ones so you don’t want your body to produce too much of it. It is what happens during a fight or flight response, which I was in consistently for two years. It is why I would leave all the time. My body simply could not take it.

            When did it start? At work? On your way home?

          44. Kim e says:

            I worked out last night…all cardio. I hate it!!! But I know it is good for me and there is no time to think for an hour. I cant move the next day but it is fun when I am finished with it. I also took 4 advil before going to bed last night cuz I knew I was gonna be sore. I was but not as bad as in the past.
            Cortisol and stress. HA….W and job. They are both the cause of it. I just found out that we are doing another system upgrade next week so Ii will be at least 3 early/late days for me which means I miss my workouts. It wouldnt be too bad (a lie) if after the upgrades the system wokred the way it used to like the software people tell us it will but it never does. So then I lose days trying to figure out what went wrong and get it fix.
            It started at whatever time I sent you that message. I know I was at work and it was in the morning after the reblock.
            Quiet aliens in NYC……might be a plot for a new NEtflix show. And the leader walks on the left side of all his underlings so he can hear them……..LOL

          45. SMH says:

            Kim e, Good for you for working out. That is one way to keep your ET under control. I think I am being so lazy because my ET IS under control, so I don’t have to battle it by working out.

            I think we get overly sensitized so everything causes stress, right? The job wouldn’t be such a pain if it weren’t for W, and W wouldn’t be so stressful if it weren’t for the job. You are transferring your ET from one to the other. That is certainly what I do. I end up alienating everyone at work because I am lashing out all over the place. Some people knit. I don’t but maybe that is a solution? (jk) Really I think the gym is best because it’s physical activity and takes your mind off of the rest of it.

            I don’t know how you could get to work any earlier than you already do. Train at 4:00 a.m.?

          46. Kim e says:

            I really enjoy the cardio work outs. I am at least 25 – 30 years older than some of the people in my class and I manage to keep up with them. I have also learned to not try and impress any one by being the fastest or pushing the hardest. I do it at my pace so I know I can finish. I was on 8 pound weights for some time due to my shoulder but this week I said F it and moved up to 10 pounds. Does not sound like a big deal but after doing 4 reps of 15, it is.
            I am up at 4,out the door at 520, train at 603, office at 645. The nights I go to the gym, I walk thru my door at 1830. If I do take the earlier train, everything moves up 30 minutes in the morning.
            Now I need to get my butt outside and walk again at lunch.

          47. SMH says:

            Kim e, Admirable that your days are so long yet you commit to working out and see it through. I could not do what you do!

            Forgot to tell you in last message re the siblings: MRN told me during our next to last break up (before my six months NC) that his brother had just gotten caught having a four year affair and his wife had left him. He also told me that the wife was ‘difficult’ and that IPPS agreed – it was like they were blaming the wife for the brother’s affair. Of course MRN was having an affair with me – was that because IPPS was ‘difficult’? I was also shocked that MRN would not see the irony of IPPS blaming her SIL when her own husband was having an affair too! I got quite upset and defended the SIL. I really did not think that MRN liked women on the whole and had never been friends with one. So much misogyny. He was really just a grown up frat boy.

          48. Kim e says:

            Oh I think you could do it if you wanted to.
            I find it interesting that MRN would tell you anything about IPPS let alone her opinion on the BIL’s affair. I dint think IPPS said anything about it. He just instinctively threw that in the conversation to make it sound more credible. He knew it would force you to get upset………games…we play them right along with them especially when we know what we are dealing with. I changed my approach to W completely.

          49. SMH says:

            Kim e, He was bonding with IPPS (I was encouraging him). I believe he told me her opinion as a way of illustrating how ‘close’ they were. When I started defending the SIL he insisted that he’d defended her too (changed his position). This was all the culmination of a fight we’d had about a month previously. The six months NC followed. Imagine my surprise and confusion at the hoovers. And then my further surprise when he wanted to restart things. I said no, which is what you are going to do! lol.

            How have you changed your approach other than practicing how you will say no? 🙂

          50. Kim e says:

            Well this kinda took me by surprise. I never gave a thought to changing my approach. I am too worried about how to get thru NC day to day and being hoovered.
            Which leads to your question….how will I say no.
            You are assuming 2 things by asking that.
            1. that W will take the time and energy to figure out how to contact me. I am just a DLS and right now the only way he has to get in touch is in person and he is not going to do that for fear of wounding.
            2. That my geyser self is capable of saying it in just one word……..

            I am worried about being hoovered but I think that is my ET. My LT is saying….nah, not going happen other than maybe a unknown caller call on my work phone. GEE….I wonder who that was????!!!!!

          51. SMH says:

            Kim e, I was sort of kidding, sort of not. I think you are correct about both you and W – similar to how things were for me. MRN only broke NC once and I also cannot keep my mouth shut. I’d feel fine and ‘over it,’ check in just as friends, and before I knew it, he’d talk me back into the FR. It took me awhile to realize that this was part of his oppositional behavior. He’d withdraw when we were ‘together’ and be very persuasive when we were not.

            Honestly, you will not be able to say no until your ET is completely under control. Remember that eventually mine was – I could even see him and still say no and I am sure I’d be able to say no now. The problem is all of the other behavior that goes along with being in contact, and my need to talk things through, make sure everything is okay (guilt) etc. MRN was not my friend and W is not yours either!

            Speaking of which, I have 10 fake friend requests at the moment.

            Let’s focus on MM now!! Smooches!

          52. Kim e says:

            What do you mean MRN broke NC?
            The thing is right now I could unblock and have no urge to contact him. It is my ego saying…ok how long before he contacts me.
            I think they count on the “time” element of it. The longer the time inbetween, the more our ET effects us. Right now as I type my anxiety levels are raising and my ET is screaming…UNBLOCK HIM. IT WONT HURT ANYTHING……….
            This is going to be a very long process. Dont know if I lost any ground by unblocking for those couple days…………..I am sure HG would say yes…I did. It raised my ET again. But to me it felt like the shot of relief that ET fools me with.
            As a matter of fact ET has been trying to get me to go to the old train lot.

          53. SMH says:

            Kim e, I mean he contacted me after I went silent. But of course HG would say that none of this was NC because as long as he was able to contact me, it wasn’t NC. So what is the difference between no contact and not communicating? I don’t know.

            Many times I should have just ignored him but I was only able to do that post escape. I still have an email from him that I have never opened.

            He is now completely unblocked and has not contacted me directly. But in the first months, more was blocked (fake FB profiles and the like). For me and I think for you, it is a test of my attachment to unblock him yet not contact him. So far, it has worked for me BUT I have been out of it a lot longer than you have. I don’t think it is just the time. It is also your mental state. MRN knows that if I still had high ET I would have contacted him by now given my patterns.

            So, I think you are taking a huge risk if you unblock him right now – not just that he might contact you but also that you might contact him. Wait until your ET calms down. What is the longest period of NC you have ever done with him?

          54. HG Tudor says:

            If you utilise the APs regarding The Addiction and also How To Stop The Hoovers, SMH, the basis of the No Contact Regime and the difference you highlight is addressed there.

          55. SMH says:

            Thank you, HG. I don’t think I am experiencing any hoovers right now, at least none that I am aware of, but it certainly wouldn’t hurt for me to get this all straight in my head.

          56. Kim e says:

            I would imagine NC is he cant not contact you anywhere any how. Not communicting is your or him ignoring each other but stuff is still going thru.
            I do not plan on unblockinghim at this pont in time.
            The longest period was this one and if we use empath math and dont count the couple days he was not blocked but no contact was made. it will be 16 weeks. So my ET could be down…I know HG, that is my ET talking.
            Working overtime cuz I dont work enough to get a project started that I do not have enough time during the day to do. I will catch up with anything I owe you later.
            Thanks for keeping tabs on me.

          57. SMH says:

            Kim e, haha empath math. I’ll remember that. Four months is excellent! I had never done 4 months until I did six months. For the last two of those months I was in the same city as MRN and did not tell him I was there. I kept busy and did not miss him. But then January rolled around, as it does. Bitch of a month. Smooches back. Keep busy.

          58. Kim e says:

            JAnuary has such. Thrown me right off course. Not sure how to approach this now.
            I know 4 months is excellent so why did I fall off the wagon. I got 2 hoovers 1 I knew was coming… surprise there. I suppose I really should not be surprised at me. I quit smoking for almost a year and then started again. I can’t tell you why.
            Not gonna beat myself up too bad. Just gonna chill and stop thinking about it all the time.
            Smooches 😘

          59. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes, it is like quitting smoking. Takes many tries before you can do it for good. Have a good day! Smooches!

          60. Kim e says:

            SMH…OK done with excuses. He is blocked and he will stay blocked. I have to do this. I have to move on with my life. this is just plain stupid. My job has changed completely this year. Lost more responsibility. Unfortunnately I think I am going to have to cancel my gym membership or find one open 24 hours. I have to work out. Maybe it is the stress that is making my ET freak out. GO away ET. Like yous aid it has been almost 4 months…WTH…..I didnt die then.
            Might need to fork out the money to talk to HG to get me back on track.
            Smooches and tight hugs. Thank you

          61. SMH says:

            Kim e, Good job! I knew you would get back on track. Wobbles are just wobbles. It does get stupid after awhile and no you won’t die without him – on the contrary – you will thrive. I think we make them into these gods in our heads – it’s like we are scaring ourselves with monsters. Go see a scary movie instead! Ha. Work always helps me and I am sure you will feel better once you start focusing on that and getting some satisfaction from it. I hope you don’t have to give up your gym time. Smooches!

          62. Kim e says:

            Left work on time tonight. Nail appointment.
            I ran into a guy today on my lunch walk that I have always thought was a lieutenant of W. Last time I saw him I was hoovered the next day F I get hoovered tomorrow I will know for sure. Don’t share any new details of my life Just general old bs that W already knew.
            Other than that and me wanting to crawl out of my skin the day was good. Hoping nail girl has wine. No time to stop and buy.
            What’s news with you?

          63. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e, Any hoover activity yesterday? If you have a good day even though you wanted to crawl out of your skin, that is progress! Just think of it the way you would quitting smoking. You did that, right? Me too and now I find cigs pretty gross :). I am fine, thank you. Hopped across the pond yesterday (or was it the day before?). Am now on HG time. Bit o jet lag so I am also on your time, just in a different zone, where it has been more or less raining for the past 24 hours. How’d the nails come out? Do you have plans for the weekend? Smooches!

          64. Kim e says:

            No h yesterday. Just the one on Tuesday.
            I took the train from my old station today. Have an appointment after work and it is much closer. Felt a small amount of anxiety but kept telling myself it is too early. He is not here. You are ok. Nice to see the others I used to ride with. We never speak but it feels familiar. Most days are going to remain at new station as I do the gym right from there. Feeling this is an accomplishment but trying not to get too cocky about it. I have a long ways to go. Funny how after 4 months the routines of the people on this train have not altered
            Are you American or British? Not sure if British or English is the correct term
            This week sucked at work.
            Nails are great. Blue toes…..French fingers
            Hair high lights and cut Saturday morning. Rest depends on weather as they are calling for ice and snow with frigid temps.
            How bout you? Was your hoo for business or pleasure or both?

          65. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e, My hop was for work. I am American + a European nationality that is not British. It’s complicated but culturally I am 95% American.

            It is a huge accomplishment to take the old train and not break out in a cold sweat. It sounds like you are owning your spaces again, whether it is old or new train. That is very important. I think part of the anxiety is this suffocating feeling that they ‘own’ us and are everywhere (hoovers etc). Realizing that they do not and are not is part of returning to normal. Of course it is easy for me to say since there is zero chance that I will run into MRN. Still, I did have this foreboding feeling that I would see him in the airport but I didn’t. And today I passed the place where we first met and I did not feel a thing, though I often wish I had heeded my first warnings – cocky, salmon colored khaki shorts, boat shoes.

            So blue toes. The woman next to me at the salon the other day was getting blue toes. I thought they were gorgeous, though I always get red. What color is your hair? I am laughing to myself because here we are corresponding for how many months? And I’ve no idea what color your hair is!

            Sorry the week sucked. Weekend plans? I went out tonight and hope to not wake up at 4:00 a.m. (in 3 hours) tomorrow (or today, really). Smooches!

          66. Kim e says:

            I believe it was you that commented about when we are involved with our N’s, we see them everywhere. They just seem to appear in front of us.
            well…….when I was involved with W, which I am categorizing as anytime between 5/17 and 9/19, I would see him driving down the road, getting home, taking out the garbage. But I would also see his wife. Driving down the 6 lanes highway by the house, coming home, leaving home. I would also see the 2 of the together going to kick boxing, going to lunch with I am guessing her parents. I saw her all the time.
            In May 2019, I went to lunch with Denise who is a friend and was part of the train group that W and I knew. She told me at lunch out of the clear blue that W was with someone new on the train. (this comment began my long journey knew as an empath trying to get to NC) I showed no response but wanted to throw up.
            That some night I was on a different train than I would normally not be on due to switching issues on the tracks. I ran into Diane another train buddy from when we were all on the train together. Again, out of the clear blue she says to me that W is with someone much older and very loud and obnoxious. I just was like “Really????”.
            I get off the train and as I am turning into my subdivision I see the wife waiting at the light. We look at each other and I go home just thinking that the this was a very strange day and that the universe must be trying to tell me something.
            I have not seen the wife since that day……. 8 months.
            I would occasionally think it was strange since we live so close for me to not see her but never thought anything about it again…UNTIL TODAY!!!!!!
            I saw her last night at the exact spot I saw her at the last time I saw her. Again we looked at each other.
            Today as I am coming home she is behind me pulling into the subdivision. I pull over like I am parking and totally break NC and watch her. (W not home as it is his drill weekend with the Army) I watch her pull in the drive, garage door goes up. She walks into the garage. I continue to watch thinking she ran in to go pee and will be right out. As I am watching, I keep seeing movement in the garage doorway for seconds at a time and then it stops. (I am a block away) Then it appears again. Finally I can see that she is sweeping out the garage. I am like WTF but then realize she must be sweeping out the salt that was on her car last night when she pulled in. She then goes to the car and starts carrying in groceries. I go home.
            I tell you this story to show the weirdness of life. My work phone keeps getting hoovered and all of a sudden the wife reappears. I know it really has nothing to do with W or narcism but I am one of those weird people that believes that there really are no coincidences in life. Every thing and every one happens for a reason. Cant say this has anything to do with ET…but of course now my ET is soaring, I even had to fight back an urge to contact him, So weird…..thoughts????
            I am 5’8″, dirty blonde hair with lighter blonde highlights, blue eyes, 150 pounds. German, English, French and Swedish according to Ancestry DNA and my paternal grandmother. You?
            No plans today…just hanging. Tomorrow cooking at a friends and not sure what else. I am off work Monday.
            Hope you slept in today.

          67. SMH says:

            Kim e, I can’t explain the sightings but I know what you mean. It is almost as if the N decides whether to be ‘present’ or not, and when he is we get all sorts of ‘messages’ from sightings to hoovers. When he is not, there is nothing. It is that ghost thing. How much of it is our minds and how much of it is them is hard to know. For instance, it could be that you just did not notice IPPS for the past 8 months – unlikely, but plausible, right?

            Sounds like what you went through was very painful. I would have wanted to throw up too. In many ways it was so much easier for me to not know anyone connected to MRN, never to go out with him, to exist in our own little bubble, etc, because I did not have to contend with other people telling me things about him. I could think whatever I wanted with no confirmation either way. Makes it easier to escape too because I can tell myself whatever I want. I haven’t noticed any ‘signals’ since October or so and am not on heightened alert either. I barely remember what he looks like at this point (seriously!).

            Does IPPS have any clue? Do you think he keeps her close so that there is less chance of anyone telling her anything about him? Do you feel sorry for her?

            I thought you were a blonde! I have very dark hair – no gray. For a long time, I thought no one dyed their hair. Then I suddenly had a bunch of friends from CA and realized that everyone dyed their hair and everyone must think that I did too. But I’ve never touched it. Hazel eyes. Ancestry also European mutt.

            I am jet lagged so sleeping odd hours. Up at 4:00 a.m. Seeing some friends today but I think I’ll have to cancel or change the last one because I won’t make it that late and it’s too far to travel.

            Enjoy your day! Smooches

          68. Kim e says:

            I dont know if she has a clue. I know that every ti would see each other in our cars, we took the time to look at each other. I know why I was, not sure was she was. Did she have a clue…think I was “another one”…..or was she just reacting to me looking at her.
            There was an on line picture of them at kickboxing. This place always took a picture of each class after the class was done. They very very very rarely stood next to each other. I am sure that was his doing. In this picture, he is down on one knee and she is standing behind him with her hand on his shoulder. Just as the picture was snapped, he had turned to look at her and it was like he had a word bubble above his head that said….GET YOUR HAND OFF OF ME. Either she was in devaluation or he did not want any one that might see this picture to associate them. A hand on his shoulder to me means they are together especially in this setting. IT was not like this was a dinner and the couples had paired off.
            I think he is just the type that keeps everyone away from everyone for total control.
            Do I feel sorry for her???? HHHMMMM…… would think as an empath it would be an easy question but I think my ET is still so high that she is more like the competition. I, unlike you, wanted to be IPPS. So ask me this again in 3 months and we can see what my answer is then,
            This is the first time in my life that I have done anything to the color of my hair. IT is still my color just with lighter high lights thru out it.
            I messed up mu left upper arm working out the other day and now it keeps like getting a hitch in it. I have a message coming up this Saturday. My poor old body needs it. Think I will start getting one every other week for some time. She comes to my house and she is well worth it. She also does Reiki.
            It is about negative too cold to leave the house here. I have done nothing this weekend as there were 40 MPH winds yesterday with a -20 wind chill. I feel like a slug.
            So bored I cant stand it……………wine for dinner tonight…………

          69. SMH says:

            Kim e, Bored? Wine? Do those two things go together? 🙂 I am blotto. I keep falling asleep during the day and not sleeping long enough at night. It’s always like this. Today I had a two hour virtual meeting because I couldn’t drag myself to the office. Work (maybe) narc was there, talked but stayed off camera, waved, made me struggle!

            Yesterday I visited a friend who – last I saw her – was having an ldr with someone I warned her was a narc. Manipulating, future faking, e-tethering. Sure enough the guy returned and broke her heart (she also wanted to be IPPS). A therapist recently told her he’s a narc and I filled in the gaps, including fuel matrix, hoovering, comfort crumbs, emotional thinking, etc. When I was struggling with whether to tell IPPS, this friend thought I was nuts and resentful, neither of which were true in the way she thought. Now she understands. She’s so broken – I really feel for her. It also made me so glad that I am well out of it. Remember how you wanted to throw up? You don’t want to go back there.

            I’ve tried to lead her to HG, go NC etc, but people are ready when they are ready. Since I cannot get her to come here but I really want to weaponize her, I’m going to send her a few of HG’s articles. Which would you say are the most important ones? I’ve read so many, I would never be able to choose! Or maybe I should send on one of the books to her instead?

            Keeping everyone away from everyone is compartmentalization. MRN was like that too – rarely next to IPPS in a picture and if he was, not touching. So bizarre. Imagine being married to someone who will not hug or acknowledge you in public. I don’t think you have to feel sorry for her. I occasionally felt for IPPS but like you, my ET was so high that empathy was out the window – funny how that works but I guess ET makes us selfish – really focused on ourselves as we struggle to get it under control. Anyway, sounds to me like she does not have a clue – the hand on shoulder thing seems pretty natural. When did you see the picture? Hope it was not recently.

            Are you saying that when you met W, you did not know about IPPS? Or you thought he would leave her? I think I’ve noticed that you only tell me bits of your story. I understand that is because your ET is still high so I do hope I am not bothering you with my questions as I try to piece it all together.

            Hope you enjoyed your day off, despite the cold and your arm. Smooches!

          70. Kim e says:

            Sitting at my friends house doing laundry. Washer was pronounced dead so here I am. New one delivered next Saturday.
            I forgot about work maybe narc. How is he? Still narcy? Or just weird?
            That sucks about your friend. I think a good article for newbies is “Did I mean anything to Him” and “fuel”. You are right. doesn’t matter what you tell her. Until she is ready to delve into it, it is like a brick wall…..LIKE ME!!!!LOL
            I saw that picture a long time ago. I knew what was up when I saw it that is why the look on his face stood out to me.
            When I met W his “game” was (is) this innocent guy that is not worldly at all that was hurt before. He is not looking for sympathy just very matter of fact my life is now set up with this schedule and that is how it is. No idea he was married. I had an aha moment today. One our first date, W told me that we might get orders to be gone for a year with army. Since my kids were both military my thought was I get it. But today I wondered if he told me that to see if I would be like…OH NO.I will miss you so much. He brought it up again a couple months ago but in 2 weeks said no…he was not going as he was too qualified to teach what they needed taught. The army is weird like that. I have just always thought it was a strange thing to tell someone 1/2 way thru their first date.
            I don’t mind you asking me things as long as you don’t mind me sometimes not being able to at the time answer.
            Day off was good. Back to the grind stone tomorrow. No working out this week….have 2 projects to finish this week and it was a short week.

          71. SMH says:

            Kim e, He’s still narcy and weird. We worked on a project together while I was away. I took responsibility for something that was his fault, not mine. He did not apologize or even tell me that it wasn’t my fault whereas a ‘normal’ person would have. Even MRN managed to say ‘it’s not your fault’ when it wasn’t my fault (though I didn’t apologize that time and he did not take responsibility).

            W – that thing about him going away – maybe it was to test you and maybe it was to set himself up for a disappearance? MRN did the same, so it must be a narc move. He told me on our first date that I couldn’t expect to see much of him because his daughter lived with him when he was in town and since he often traveled 3 weeks out of the month (true), there wasn’t much room for me! But to be fair, I also knew that I was leaving and didn’t tell him for another month. I guess I already wanted to win, so dropped the ‘I’m leaving’ bomb at the same time as I made my first escape. Ultimately, though, we are no match for them. They thrive on the games. We only do it when forced to.

            Thank you for the suggestions for my friend. I will send her those two articles. And no, of course I do not mind if you don’t answer. All in your own time.

            How was your day? I finally made it to the gym but tomorrow I have to travel again. Smooches!

          72. Kim e says:

            Long story short for now. I messed up my good shoulder. Now it the upper part like freezes in place and it is very painful. I have to gingerly move it until it like POPS back into place. Going to chiro tonight. I will let you knwo.
            And since you asked my day sucked…….LOL

          73. SMH says:

            Kim e, Ouch! And sorry your day sucked. Hope tomorrow is better. Smooches.

          74. Kim e says:

            SMH Arm still messed up but not as bad.
            Today is a better day. I told myself to just get done what you can. Priorities. Working about 1 hour over to get a project finished up today and maybe tomorrow.
            I have to share a funny text I got today from my son. It said “😘😘 How’s you feeling today cutie butt”? And was immediately followed by
            “Nope nope nope my bad“!
            I of course being the fun loving mother that I am replied
            “ I am good sweet cheeks”
            So if he is lucky I won’t share this with his brother
            ROFLMAO. I was dying
            And yes HG this is the son that got thrown out of the lesbian chat room😂
            Smooches to you both

          75. SMH says:

            Kim e, That’s hysterical. Poor kid.

          76. Kim e says:

            OMG I just fell down the rabbit hole……..

          77. SMH says:

            Kim e, what happened?

          78. Kim e says:

            My ET got the best of me (or is it the worst os me). No excuses. it is what it is. I will play it out until I get tired of it again and hope he pisses me off enought o be done.
            You dont have to raise your foot to me…I know I know. Jsut be there to catch me when I face plant this time.

          79. SMH says:

            Kim e, Did you actually contact him or did you just unblock him? Smooches!

          80. Kim e says:

            If I am going to mess up I am going for the whole thing. I contacted him.
            and this is no excuse by any means but I can pin point my triggers that sent my ET over the edge.
            Unknown numbers calling me and also as I was waiting for the train yesterday, the sound that was his text alert sounded on someone elses phone behine me 4 times…that was it…I was a goner.
            I know HG……I know.

          81. SMH says:

            Kim e, Well, I am patient and not surprised that you broke NC as I could tell what it struggle your ET was. I also know you will get back to NC. Maybe you will even see him and realize that your feelings are not that strong. Do let me know how it goes.

          82. Kim e says:

            I can hear the disappointment in your reply.
            Of course I will let you know how it goes.
            This makes me sad

          83. SMH says:

            Kim e, I am only disappointed FOR you (not in you) because I don’t want you to have to go through the whole cycle again. As I’ve said, I am not in the position that you are in. MRN does not live down the street from me; I don’t fear running into him, etc. So I am not judging you. HG won’t judge you either and it would be good to talk to him over the weekend if at all possible so that you are prepared for Monday. I do believe that he is right – that since you already escaped the FR, W will not push to restart it. He might also punish you for wounding him by making you want to restart it and then shelving you hard. Whatever happens, don’t be embarassed to come back here and ask for help! Also, keep us posted! Smooches!

          84. HG Tudor says:


          85. Kim e says:

            If escaped is the word you are going to use for this NC episode then I have escaped before. Every time I have gone nc or escaped he has sucked me back in the same way and has started the FR again. I would say that has been 2 times before. Not saying that is what is going to happen this time just stating the facts.
            I don’t know what is going to happen. Just going with the flow or ET for right now

          86. SMH says:

            Thank you, HG. Kim e, He didn’t suck you back in. YOU sucked you back in because you are not maintaining your boundaries. This is what I could not see when I would do what you are doing. To me it was always HIM sucking me back in, when in fact it was me. Only the final time was I able to see that I had control and not let go of it.

            NC or escape, well, I never told MRN that it was over except for the first time, when we barely knew each other, and the last time, when I actually meant it. Otherwise, I would leave the door open because of guilt or ambivalence or whatever. I don’t like saying no. I never planned on never speaking to or seeing him again until the last time. So I guess it depends on what you said to W and what you told yourself.

            Speaking of being unable to say no, or not knowing how to say no, or not recognizing when no needs to be said, married neighborhood guy (I don’t think a narc) has started sending me personal emails. He just sent one saying I am missed. I am a bit confused – am friends with his wife and have not done anything to encourage him. But I seem to be an mmm (married man magnet). Wish I knew why so that I could turn it off!!


          87. Kim e says:

            HG. As to the formal relationship I know that sex will start it again but what are other ways that would be used to restart it?
            Your humble empath

          88. HG Tudor says:

            Taking you for dinner, going for a walk in the park with you, sitting and watching a film with you, listening to you cry about how you feel, talking on the phone for longer than 30 minutes, an extensive exchange of text messages. The list is long.

          89. Kim e says:

            HG. Thank you
            Can you pleaae qualify “an extensive exchange of test messages”?
            Thank you

          90. HG Tudor says:

            10 minutes back and forth at least.

          91. Kim e says:

            So would a 3 hour continual, with the normal pauses between, text constitue the FR starting again?
            Thank you

          92. HG Tudor says:

            If IPSS,you have been taken off the shelf and engaged with.

          93. Kim e says:

            HG. Just trying to understand.
            You stated that extensive text time to signal the start of the FR again would be 10 minutes backa nd forth at least.
            I asked about a 3 hour test being the restart of the FR.
            I understand that it takes the IPSS off the shelf but does a 3 hour text restart the FR?
            Thank you again.

          94. HG Tudor says:

            You are in the Formal Relationship as the shelf appliance.

          95. Kim e says:

            Thank you HG.

          96. Kim e says:

            HG. As IPSS is it possible to not be in a FR but not be disengaged from either? If so how would the IPSS know?
            Thank you

          97. SMH says:

            Kim e, That is how it always started up with MRN again as well. Hours of texting. Then we’d be back to square one with me thinking things would be different this time because he must have missed me, and if I felt calmer and that everything was right with the world when we were in contact, he must feel that way too. Ha. How many times was I fooled?

          98. Kim e says:

            And how do you describe me as someone who knows the story and still goes back knowing nothing has or will ever change. Yep…an addict.
            Gotta break away eventually…hang in with me and once I am free, we will have a drink to celebrate.

          99. SMH says:

            Kim e, I still think you believe that something will change even though you know the story. I also believe that you will break away eventually. I have faith in you. Have you seen him yet?

            Yes, knackered means tired. Today was even worse than yesterday in that respect but I will get used to it and the rest of the week is calmer. You should join a different gym because otherwise you are telling me you are cutting out the only thing that isn’t work or being home alone? Smooches.

          100. Kim e says:

            I have faith in me too. I have not seen him. But I have gotten an anonymous call at work and an unknown caller on my cell. He did this once before after we had not talked for a while and then did. I believe I asked HG about why he does it and from what I remember the answer was fear of wounding (energy tho we had texted for 3 hours 2 days prior) and of course control. He wants to make me go to him. I did that. It is his turn now.
            Sitting in a parking garage as I am early meeting up with 2 girls for drinks and dinner. Have dinner tomorrow night after my nail appointment with the girl that does my nails. African cuisine tonight and Vietnamese tomorrow. Who says I don’t live a wild life😀
            I will definitely join another gym even if it is Planet Fitness. I think I know enough routines to keep myself busy on the machines.
            Don’t worry about me. I am going to be fine. I am kinda where you were before with the friend only gig. Shit he might never text me again and wait for me. I am still minute by minute day by day. Been sleeping good.
            Gotta run. Take care and fill me in on what’s up.

          101. SMH says:

            Kim e, Glad to hear you are making plans with friends. What sort of African cuisine did you have?

            As far as the waiting goes, yes, I know what you are talking about. It is not like with a normal person where you kind of naturally take next steps. Everything is calculated. During my NISS phase with MRN it was all okay for about two months. Never during that period did I contact him at all but of course that just made him more present. If I’d known then what I know now, I might have chased after him so that he would leave me alone. Ha. Everything is ass backwards!

            Speaking of unknown callers – I got a long message on FB yesterday. I’ve had four or five of those now, including one that used my name, but only a few of them go past ‘hi.’Took a screenshot and didn’t look at it again but I know it was not MRN because of the writing.

            I am about to go to the gym if I follow through with today’s plan. Then again, I might not. Have a good day there when you see this. I look forward to updates and I hope you can handle whatever happens (unlike me!). Smooches.

          102. Kim e says:

            I get your replies on WordPress. If you follow the post everytime my name appears i the beginning of a reply or someone replies to something I posted in a floowed conversation it shows up in Word press. Upper right hand corner is a bell. I click on it and there they are.

            African was spicey baked chicken with rice, mashed potatos and blood orange juice with vodka. Yummy. Not sure what I will have tonight. Had an omelet for lunch.
            I can honestly say I think I have onlky ever gotten 1 message on FB and I have been on it forever. But my phone is burning up with Unknown caller calls…LOL
            Did you amke it to the gym? Where are you? Home?
            TTYL…have a good weekend. 50 here Sunday unless those bastard weathermen lied. Good day to get out and clear the cobwebs as it is gonna be brutally cold next week.

          103. SMH says:

            Kim e, I did make it to the gym but was kind of lazy once there. It wasn’t the best workout. The food sounds great! I had Ethiopian not long ago, and have also had my fair share of cornmeal and various other porridges with delicious toppings. But otherwise I do not know much about African food.

            I don’t use WordPress — only see responses in my email inbox. Usually the person’s name shows along with the first few words but if the title of the post is long, it takes up that space. I tend to read all of the responses to a single post in one go, and then go back to another post, etc. That way, I can more or less follow the conversations. But occasionally I do miss something.

            Weird about FB vs phone. I have about five fake FB msgs sitting there – or the ghosts of messages when FB removes them. They’ve never seemed to be from MRN except maybe the ones that just say ‘hi’ because his writing is very distinctive and I would recognize it.

            Did the calls stop now that you broke NC? That is how you will know if it is W. MRN stopped his regular visits to LI as soon as I broke NC. That is how I knew it was him. He never admitted it, of course.

          104. Kim e says:

            I am not sure how african this african resturant was I went to. I think it is the mexican equivelent to taco bell. Marinated chicken with a variety of spicey temeratures to choose from, red mashed potatoes and rice. Sounds like my nornal dinner….but in a building playing african music and charging me money. But it was a good time with the girls.
            I enjoyed the vietnamese better the next night. Got 3 meals out of it.
            My ET and LT have been arguing today. I almost parked at the old station but my anxiety went sky high so I went to the new one. I know I am not going to make it very lonf this time around as I guess I do not do well being ignored. The peace I had found after our chat is crumbling. I got an anonymous call but otherwise no contact from him.
            My LT is coming back into play telling me how stupid it is to just keep going in the same circle over and over and over. But I feel something is different this time. I really dont feel him the way I used to. Does that make sense? Before when I was on the shelf, it was not for long inbetween contact. This time it is different. I just feel/sense it.
            Gotta fly and do some work.

          105. SMH says:

            Kim e, Do you mean you don’t feel as anxious? That is good, if I am reading you correctly. Next round of NC should be the final one because you are right, you are going around in circles and it is maybe not stupid, but pointless I’d say, because nothing is going to change. Remember that it is all about control and as long as you are tied to W in some way, he will be trying to control you. I don’t like being ignored either, which is why I blew up at the only ST I ever got. I wish I’d had one earlier so that I could have been done sooner! I’ve missed a few days on here but I hope you check in soon and are okay. Smooches!

          106. Kim e says:

            Sounds like you have decided work narcy is a definite N. And I can see is point. It was YOUR fault. Why should he take the blame?? Damn woman, always trying to get the guy in trouble….ROFLMAO
            Work is getting to be out of hand. Tomorrow I have to finish setting up a new function so my email will be ignored. I also cancelled my workouts this week as I know I am going to be there late.
            Facial got cancelled Friday so I am going this week. Parking in old lot again. My ET and LT are so messed up don’t think it would make a difference. Going to end up chatting with HG as I just can not shake this ET.
            Snow here but only about 2 inches…(story of my life). New washer being delivered Saturday. Had to reschedule my massage and that made me very sad. I love my massages. BEST thing I do for me. Followed by nails and facial. I really dont like this place where I work out but I am locked in so guess I will just have to suck it up.
            Safe travels tomorrow. Are you coming back to the states? If not how long are you gone for?
            I am going to Florida end of February for 5 days. I cant wait.

          107. SMH says:

            Kim e, I am gone for months and months at a time. I fucked up my back at the gym yesterday – it had been a few weeks since I’d worked out. Definitely feeling it today! I need a haircut, you need a facial, I need the dentist, you need a massage etc.

            I gave my friend the articles yesterday. She said she was ‘fine’ but she definitely is not fine. Still, I know how it goes (ups and downs) and when she is ready and prepared to accept, she will read. Sorry you are feeling the need to consult with HG again but it does sound like you are in a rut, parking in the old lot. Why? Hoping to run into W? It takes a long time and you have made very good progress. Use the resources available to you. Use what you need to keep going.

            Speaking of which, coming here lately has felt like reading the comments section in the Daily Mail. I am sick of H&M and hope HG has another trick up his sleeve!!

            Florida sounds nice. Who are you going with? I’m going to France for a long weekend in February. Friend’s party. Weather will not be nice, however. I’ll go see what else you have written. Smooches!

          108. Kim e says:

            SMH. I am not parking in the old lot. I did that one time as I had an appointment after work and the new lot is too far. No no no…..not back in old lot. Even when W is unblocked I have no desire to run into him. Scares the shit out of me. Which is why it is time to talk to HG again. If when he is unblocked can I go without contacting still park in new lot and be scared to see him why did I blow it at him being blocked for 16 weeks.
            Your friend is going to find her way in time and with you lovingly prodding her
            I agree about HM. I get the lessons and am in awe of some of it but …….oh well. The platform is for many not just us. I KNOW…hard to believe isn’t it
            I have long time friends that retired to Florida many moons ago. It is like an annual trip for me
            France. My son proposed there
            Take it easy on your back ( wait that didn’t sound right). But keep moving so it doesn’t stiffen up. (Again with the nit sounding right)
            Going before I dug a deeper hole. OMG. 😂😂❤️😂😂

          109. SMH says:

            Kim e, lol. You make me laugh. Keep your sense of humor no matter what else happens.

            Good questions about fear and breaking NC. I think we test ourselves. Can we be in touch without being scared shitless? After MRN stalked me on the dating site, I went NC for a few months. Had it in my head that he needed to know that he didn’t knock me off my path, so I emailed him from a bus to see how he was. It was pointless because I really did think he was all settled into his new reconciled life with IPPS, I had no intention of getting involved with him again and I really couldn’t have cared less how he was. Why, then did I do it? Pride. I wanted HIM to know that he did not win. So it seems to me that it’s kind of about ‘proving’ to the N that our egos are intact. Unfortunately, they will take that opportunity to try to destroy us again, which is exactly what MRN did within seconds of receiving my email. And thus started Act II, the affair, before I even got off the bus!

            Think about your motivations in terms of what you are trying to ‘prove’ either to yourself or to W. Smooches!

          110. Kim e says:

            I agree completely that it is pride with me to prove I could get him “back”.
            W was kinda stand offish today but as soon as I said I was just thinking about him, he came backwith wht were you thinking? and I knew it was on.
            Not sure if the FR will start again as HG said since I went NC it ended because I basically escaped. Not sure what warrants it starting again.
            Minute by minute………..
            smooches and a BIG GLASS OF WINE

          111. SMH says:

            Kim e, So you did contact him. Hmmm. MRN would say something like ‘what were you thinking’ too. Narc playbook. Did you consult with HG yet? Or was this just in the comments? What’s next? I won’t predict what will happen but I HOPE you can say no without it being a huge setback. Smooches!

          112. Kim e says:

            No have not consulted with HG. Now I am afraid to.
            Cant say what is next. Going to take the weekend and chill. That will give me 2 days to reflect as I dont hear from him on the weekend.
            I will be in touch.

          113. SMH says:

            Kim e, I can’t find either of those titles among the articles. Did you mean the book Fuel? Can you direct me to Did I Mean Anything to Him? Or maybe our librarian angel K knows which ones you are referring to?

          114. Kim e says:

            Fuel is a good book. Maybe the other is an article.

          115. SMH says:

            Kim e, I think I found it – What Am I to the Narcissist?

          116. Kim e says:

            SMH. I knew it was out there.
            I have a question that just popped in my head…..what were the differences between your 2 N’s? Just wondering since they were different schools
            Gotta rum. Smooches

          117. SMH says:

            Kim e, On the outside, they were really, really different, mainly because ExLH had no self control while MRN was the calmest person I’d ever met. Both intelligent but MRN is off the charts smart. Of course the contrast was one of the reasons I was attracted to MRN in the first place. The similarities were there too, however, including in my reactions to them. I left both of them numerous times and I have never done that with anyone. I leave, I am gone. They both needed fixing, both selfish, both rewrote history to suit themselves, both triangulated me with their daughters (ExLH had two, MRN had three), both stingy, neither had friends, both very dependent on the women in their lives, both very rigid and routinized, both withheld. Hmmm. I’ll have to think about the rest of it but interesting question.

          118. Kim e says:

            SMH. Yep. That was me to. I leave I am gone. I don’t think W has friends either. As far as I can tell the friends he has are from where they work out. I told you very routine orientated.
            Very interesting. Thanks for sharing
            May I ask more? If you prefer not to answer please feel free to tell me. I ask because I never experienced any devaluation. It is very hard for me as I have stated before to relate to the “bad” If I ever got a silent treatment I didn’t know about it. I was in the golden period. Then I caused a corrective devaluation and then I was disengaged from and deleted. In my world at the time we “broke up”. I found HG between deletion and hoovers.
            So my question is how did you know you were in what you now know to be devaluation? How did the 2 schools devalue differently? How long were you married?
            Please do not feel obligated to answer. But thank you if you do. Curiosity killed the cat and the truth seeker empath
            Rum and coke smooches

          119. SMH says:

            Kim e, I don’t think it’s the two schools as much as it is your position in the fuel matrix.

            As IPSS, I don’t know that I was ever in devaluation with MRN after he canceled on me/tried to triangulate me that one time (maybe I was CIPSS at that point – I am not really sure). He never disengaged, for instance. Shelved, yes, but not disengaged. The only time he ever gave me an ST was during the NISS phase. That was enough for me to leave for good, and had he done something like that during the IPSS phase, I would have exploded. So I have to say that he never devalued me, which is partly what made it so difficult – it wasn’t obvious. I don’t think Ns routinely devalue IPSS. They save it for IPPS. I wouldn’t expect W to devalue you unless you really threatened his control as per the original post.

            ExLH (and I was IPPS to him, remember) would do all kinds of stuff from lashing out to silent treatments. FR for six years or so and it was explosive, as you can imagine. We fought constantly. Miserable. There wasn’t that sort of tension with MRN. We got along quite well when we were together. All the weird stuff happened when we were apart, but little of it amounted to a devaluation to my mind.

            Hope that helps! Smooches!

          120. K says:

            I was happy to read that the Therapist recognized that your friend is dealing with a narcissist. Let me know if these articles are helpful. Thought fuel is one of my favorites.





          121. SMH says:

            Thank you K! I knew you would come through! I am also glad my friend found a therapist who knew, though I did point out that having NPD is different from having narcissistic traits. I hope she finds things in these articles that she can relate to and maybe she will come to the site if they speak to her. In the state she is in now, I am not sure how much she can take in.

          122. K says:

            My pleasure SMH!
            There’s a world of difference between having narcissistic traits and NPD. Hopefully your friend will find her way here. It’s rough when people find out that they have been dealing with a narcissist. Some people just can’t seem to process it and they go into a state of denial.

          123. Kim e says:

            K and SHM
            Thanks for helping SMH out with her friend and the articles.
            I do believe that K has hit my issue on the head. I am in a state of denial. It is like I told HG, I read/listen to all of it and it makes sense/registers but it is like I am reading someone elses story. I think OMG that is awful. But it does not penatrate my mind. I mean how amny times does it take for me to block and unblock before it kicks in.
            Or is it all ET feeding me a line of BS????!!!!!

          124. K says:

            My pleasure Kim e
            Anytime I can pull up something, please let me know. People are desperate for answers.

            It sounds like you are dealing with cognitive dissonance, which can be similar to denial, and I think a chat with HG will help you shake your ET. Don’t beat yourself up over the blocking and unblocking. Talk to HG and make a plan; it will take time and effort but you will get there.

          125. Kim e says:

            K. Going to set up that chat with HG. Since I hate to be told how or what I need to do… must be a n trait of mine….I need to first have a talk with myself about HG is trying to help, not be bossy and intrude in your world. Lol

          126. HG Tudor says:

            I look forward to assisting you Kim.

          127. K says:

            Kim e
            Hahahaha…you and I both know that HG isn’t bossy; he’s just logical and he’s damn good at it.

          128. Kim e says:

            K. I know. HG and I have chit chatted before. As a mater of fact I got hoovered while we were chit chatting. Talk about timing

          129. K says:

            Kim e
            Hahahaha…you are simply irresistible! Enjoy your chit chat with HG; I hope it helps with your ET.

          130. SMH says:

            Kim e, That state of denial is connected to your ET. Think about it – you have said how your ET is like an addiction in and of itself. You actually feed your ET by remaining in a state of denial. I think both things resolve together – the more under control your ET is, the more you are able to accept what happened and – better – the more you cease to care about it because your ET is what keeps you caring. Hope that makes sense. It just occurred to me – isn’t something I have completely worked out.

            K, I was also in denial for a long time. I knew MRN was a narc within six months of meeting him but I did not accept it until I made my final escape a year and a half later. I looked for every excuse under the sun from my own behavior to him having Aspergers. I listened to my friend do this too – she knows he’s a narc because I told her he was one last summer and her therapist has now told her too. But she doesn’t really and truly accept it yet.

          131. K says:

            You’ve been through it so you know what it’s like. Denial is one of the more difficult aspects in this dynamic so we have to force ourselves to step back and let go. The evidence is all there but people are too shell-shocked to accept it, then they start excusing the behaviors away and Aspergers and BPD are the two most common excuses I hear IRL. All we can do is stand back and wait and it’s painful to watch! Hopefully, she will come around soon.

          132. SMH says:

            K, Exactly. I guess it is what they call the ‘fog.’ Brain muddled! It is painful to watch other people going through it. But I am not forgetting at all how it was, which is why I am sure that Kim e will make it to the other side! My real life friend isn’t that close yet – she is still in the space where she thinks she can justify what happened, where she asks the wrong questions, and doesn’t understand her own ET. I find that as the memory fades so does the muddled thinking. The more I accept it, the less I care. I don’t have to look back in horror because I barely remember what happened! It’s like being in a coma for years (not that I have ever been in a coma, mind you!).

          133. K says:

            The Fog is bad and I have seen victims justify, excuse, blame shift and gloss over abusive behavior several times. It’s very frustrating! Once the LT overtakes the ET, you are practically home free, after that it’s just maintenance.

          134. SMH says:

            K, Yes and I now realize that I watched MRN’s IPPS go through it too. I was surprised at the time but I was still in the throes of ET. Now I understand both her and myself somewhat better.

          135. K says:

            It makes you realize that the behavior has nothing to do with intelligence; it’s just ET gone amuck.

          136. SMH says:

            K, Yes, and I know I was disdainful. If I could apologize to her I would!! But maybe she has realized now that she has been in a fog, and is less disdainful of “me” or of what I told her too.

          137. K says:

            Don’t beat yourself up too much. I have been disdainful, as times. It’s the frustration combined with: Why Can’t They See It Too?, but ET clouds logic and that’s why we have to walk away and let things happen, even if it kills us!

            Over two years ago, I told my niece that her BF is a Narcissist, he cannot change and I forwarded links to narcsite. Recently, she told her mother (my sister) that her BF has BPD and she wants him to go into counseling so he can change his behavior. My sister and I were like…WTF!?!?

            Sometimes people need the harsh, naked, brutal truth to make them wake up the Eff up.

          138. SMH says:

            K, Thanks and yes, it is exactly like that. As we know, people stay in these relationships for decades using excuse after excuse. I can wish that I’d found HG years ago but I wouldn’t have been ready to listen and I guess your niece is not either. I really hope she comes around before he destroys her!

          139. K says:

            My pleasure SMH
            Decades ago! That’s when we all needed narcsite. My niece is fed up but I think she is in major denial and I am stepping back.

          140. SMH says:

            K, Only so much you can do. Is she a co-d? That is the one thing I do not understand – if I could figure out what MRN was in under two years, how come IPPS cannot? I think that is where my disdain comes in – I don’t have a lot of respect for people who allow themselves to be treated like doormats. If it had been a one off I might not be so judgmental. But it’s wasn’t.

          141. K says:

            I don’t think she is a CoD but her ET is running the show and I am baffled by her “BPD” diagnosis, since I explained VERY clearly that he is a Narcissist. It’s very frustrating because there are two young children involved. WTF!

          142. SMH says:

            K, Whose children are they? Joint or one of theirs? I hope she is not putting HER children through unnecessary grief with the narc that ensnared their mother. Too many horror stories on here. And yes, sounds like her ET is looking for excuses. Somehow BPD seems more manageable than NPD??

          143. K says:

            She has two sons with him (ULN) and her 9-year-old has stated that he hates his father. My sister has spoken up but she has gotten pushback from her daughter. I am too pissed off so I am keeping my mouth shut. It’s a wait and see situation. BPD…my fat ass.

          144. SMH says:

            K, That is too bad. Sounds like a very complicated situation but it’s good that your sister is on it, even if she doesn’t know the details of NPD. I hope for everyone’s sake that your niece comes to her senses but as we know, these things take time, especially when one is IPPS. I am lucky I had no kids with my lesser exH but his first wife did! When we split up, I sent his eldest adult daughter a long email explaining why I had left. I figured that she would see parallels with her own mother, as I had come to know more and more about my ex’s first marriage. But that daughter is the peacemaker, so I imagine she could not process what I wrote. I never got on with the other daughter, so I did not write to her, but I did come to understand why she had such a rocky relationship with her father. She married a solid guy, however, so there is hope!

          145. K says:

            Having children with a narcissist complicates matters exponentially. I told my sister I would send her the link to: But I Can Change and she can forward it to my niece. Hopefully, the logic will knock some sense into her. If something miraculous occurs, I will gladly share it but I am not holding my breath.

          146. SMH says:

            K, She needs a consult!

          147. K says:

            To start, my niece needs an ED and a ND. My sister needs an ED, two NDs (work) and a How to Handle the Narcissists at Work consult.

            Until they are ready to take action/control over their lives, I am just gonna stand back and wait.

          148. SMH says:

            lol, K. Your family alone could keep HG well fed.

          149. Lorelei says:

            K—I’m thinking some BPD appearing individuals are very emotional empaths and the rest are often sulky mids, so there is much confusion because there is a behavioral “overlap” of the two, combined with the bias or diagnostics applied by the social worker/doctor/nurse practitioner. I’ve asked HG about this previously and it is a measure of my own progress to see that I don’t find it confusing any further. The problem with BPD is that it is used often in a demeaning way (Just one issue) and clinicians not understanding narcissism allow further damage to very fragile empaths by often promoting groups for instance where they work together. The narcissist “borderline” preys on the empath “borderlines.” Same as AA, same same.. Nevermind the less than stellar counselors imploring these empathic patients to encourage more endless expression of emotional thinking by “feeling their feelings.” Sure, it’s needed to have an outlet, not a damn waterfall once a week. On the flip side the narcissist “borderline” gets a fuel fest pity party in their sessions. K—we really get a head start here don’t we!

          150. HG Tudor says:

            Valid observations

          151. Lorelei says:

            You are a fine teacher. I can “see” this having played out in my clinical work. Being old as dirt enables years of examples!

          152. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

          153. Lorelei says:

            Remind me not to tell a someone they are a mid ranger again. (By descriptions of their behavior) Ok. I let the pointless aspect of this elude my sensibilities as now my phone won’t stop. Calls, texts, emails..

          154. K says:

            A head start is an understatement, there are moments when I feel like we are at the finish line wondering where the hell everyone else is?!? How do they not see it (I know; it’s ET). All the answers are here in spades and we are very fortunate to have access to it all.

            I think this is her own diagnosis because he has not seen a therapist to my knowledge, however, she expects him to go to therapy. She just doesn’t want to face reality so she is blame shifting his behaviour to BPD. It’s very frustrating.

          155. Lorelei says:

            K—BPD used to baffle me, not now. It’s either a narcissist manipulating emotional content by means of mirroring what they’ve seen and emulating this for fuel, or an empath that is very fragile and/or under great pressure. Period. A normal will not behave in such a way.

          156. Lorelei says:

            K—HG told me once that a narcissist hiding under the veil of BPD that keeps displaying hurtful behaviors is in essence, blame shifting onto the “disorder.” Funny that she is doing it—likely because he is!

          157. K says:

            Absolutely 100% accurate! When people gloss over and blame shift abuse to BPD or anything else, it frustrates me to no end.

          158. Lorelei says:

            K—I was really aghast by the concept but not now which is somewhat an instrument of measuring progress in my understanding. As we discussed the other day—I’ve had the recent epiphany re, why there was frustration over the length of time I felt it was “too long” to be improving. I was exposing myself to the behavior of my ex until recently. Then I tried to claw or latch on for more distress due to emotional thinking. It takes awhile to work this stuff out. Al said recently he had a hard time with the concept of us seeking the abuse in some form (a take-away paraphrase) and had been personally declared more a “normal”—it really all makes a sick sort of sense. Anyway, I’m in and outta here. I have three days of mostly non-stop academia to attend to. I extended my time off work thankfully.

          159. K says:

            It takes a while to work out your ET (the enemy within) and NC is a significant factor in that process. As former IPPSs (FIPs), we cannot move forward if we continue to interact with our exes; we have to implement NC and it doesn’t help that we (society as a whole) are conditioned to accept this abuse as normal.

          160. Lorelei says:

            Correct K. No circumstance would warrant talking to my ex. He would purposely (instinctively) never provide any information, especially if there were an emergency. He will always be rude. Malign hoovering—I would roll over in shock if he ever painted me white. I know this sounds nuts. But, K—if he weren’t so awful I never would have truly understood. By having this understanding there is now a before and an after. His awfulness allowed me to have no choice but to find an after. The after is allowing me to at least have a chance to move into a different direction that is in stark contrast to the before. Even if I were to die prematurely (for instance—car crash/cancer..)—the after so far has allowed an impact on everyone close to me that is huge. I’ve been told repeatedly in many ways that something is different. My kids do not have an incredibly distinct memory of a sleeping mother. It is a distance away in their memory. My best friend from college kept telling me at my mother’s funeral—“I can’t stop looking at you.” She remembers the before, the during, and the now. (She was in my miserable wedding) It’s not the most awesome day today because I’m still emotional, I wrecked my car, I don’t want to go back to work later in the week —but I’m a fuck ton better than 30 days ago. Maybe this is a mid ranger pity party!

          161. K says:

            What the Hell happened to your car? Have you been drag racing again?

            No way is he gonna give up any information because that would amount to a transfer of power (he’s not a Greater so it’s instinct) and, if he did, it would only be a manipulation to serve HIS purposes.

            His awfulness compelled you to find an answer (truth seeker trait) which led you here and you have found your after so now you are able to recognize the before for what it really was. Now you can see with complete clarity and that allows you to move forward. What a relief and people have noticed the difference. Hopefully, the children won’t remember their sleeping mother and, if they do, that’s ok, just tell them the truth.

            It’s not a mid ranger pity party; your mother died recently and your ET is high and you need a safe place to vent and that is what narcsite is for and 30 days from now you will be in better place than you are today. Feel the sadness; don’t stop and when you are ready let it go. There’s no rush; take your time.

            NarcAngel: “I think in time we will refer to it as BHG (before HG and AHG (after HG) haha.”


          162. Lorelei says:

            Thanks K! I was on a dark road and it was icy—I slid into a boulder kinda thing. It’s ok, I have another car so don’t even need to mess with a rental. I need to address the repairs today though now that it’s Monday. It does suck it but I only have one bruise—no big deal. Walking into a testing center! Wish me luck!

          163. Lorelei says:

            I’m back K.. But how do you tell the truth? We are supposed to take the high road and say nothing mostly but.. But..

          164. K says:

            I read on A Very Performing Narcissist that you passed your test, Congratulations! Bam!

            Yes, we take the high road but, if they have any questions, we should answer them honestly, without insulting our exes; I am very matter of fact when I talk to my 9-year-old. She is entitled to ask questions and get honest answers. We should not lie, gloss over or hide things from our children because that isn’t fair to them.

          165. Kim e says:

            At the point where I feel worthless (I know I am not) and not good enough for him (it is the other way around) to even try to find a way to contact me….shit we are nieghbors!!!!
            But I keep telling myself I will NEVER be on the inside where I want to be. I will always be one of 2?3?4?
            I just realy still think it would be a lot easier for me to lower my ET if he just pissed me off….LOL

          166. SMH says:

            Kim e, I don’t think it matters all that much that you are neighbors – it is harder from your perspective to have him in physical proximity, but for him it wouldn’t be that different from hoovering you on social media. MRN used to say that it didn’t matter where he lived, that he always traveled and anyway it was as if we lived in different countries even when we were in the same city.

            This reminds me that I once told him he had a completely different perception of space and time than I did. That was another way that I noticed his weirdness. It was the sort of stuff HG writes about – suddenly appearing, close proximity and then disappearance, acting as if no time has passed, etc.

            Remember that they inhabit the world in a different way to you and me. Even if you accepted being one out of three or four or even if you were the only one, he would still manipulate you. We cannot give him what they want/need because we do not understand what they want/need or what they want/need means draining us. It is impossible.

            MRN didn’t really piss me off for the longest time either. I think I was too fascinated with figuring him out or too scared to lose him. It wasn’t until post escape that he really angered me. He had once the previous year and that was the beginning of the end, actually, because what’s the point of having an affair with someone who makes you angry? But the being super pissed off came post escape almost a year later. I am not a co-d.

            I am all for getting angry but I don’t think it happens until your ET is lower. It’s kind of like snapping out of it and realizing what you’ve been tolerating. Lowering your ET comes first, and that happens with NC. Then you might be in a position to get pissed off. I hope so!!

          167. Notme! says:

            ‘I’m not curt’?? Okey dokey HG
            I’m going to refrain from commenting on that as I have a question and don’t want to get up your nose and on your wrong side in one acrobatic move.

            Have you often heard of this phenomenon of apparently different personalities?

          168. HG Tudor says:


          169. SMH says:

            Hahaha HG. Perfect example.

          170. HG Tudor says:


          171. FYC says:

            I prefer and appreciate succinct communication and I am an empath. Succinct communication can be very effective and more impactful. The human attention span is 7 seconds before a diversion takes place.

          172. HG Tudor says:

            Interesting, looks like I need to shorten my articles!!

          173. SMH says:

            I have noticed that about you, FYC. You are very precise. But most people here are not. I sure am not!!

          174. FYC says:

            SMH, That is not to say one is better than the other. There are many times when brevity is not the best solution in communication. But in terms of getting a point across, brevity and precision has its advantages and is often very effective. My point was, that being wordy or succinct, is not always a factor of narcissism. We all bring our many unique qualities into our communication (both sending and receiving). It is easy to read into others’ communication a tone or intent that may be altogether absent or unintended (especially written communication). Everyone feels they are excellent communicators, yet most people struggle, even in their closest relationships, to be understood at times. Communication is imperfect.

          175. SMH says:

            FYC, I agree that communication is imperfect but I would never take you for a narc, despite your precision. Your writing is still completely different from HG’s ‘terse’ responses (not all of his responses are terse and of course his posts are not) and from MRN’s. Language is not in itself definitive but it is very interesting, especially given that we here can only communicate with each other through written language. I once said that MRN would never find these posts and if he did he wouldn’t understand them. He was very left brained and especially had problems with figurative language and clauses. I think he was capable but he interpreted it as so much fuel. He liked it when I would use exclamation points and emojis.

          176. FYC says:

            SMH, Thank you for seeing that I am not a N. However, on occasion, others on the blog have asserted or intimated I am a N and I am not. Encoding and decoding of communication is always impacted by our internal filters. On two occasions, I misunderstood HG’s meaning and later it dawned on me what he really intended and I laughed at myself for missing the point. It was not his encoded message error, it was my interpretation/decoding error.

            With regard to being curt, I find this subjective. If there is sufficient intent clearly displayed in the broader communication, it may be the case, but in most instances, I simply see parsimonious expression. It is easy to assume intent when we anticipate a different response, but this leads to decoding error and misunderstandings.

            With regard to HG’s responses, I also feel he wants us to work out the meaning on our own. To seek, understand and absorb what he has so prolifically produced in his many works, rather than doing the work for us. In my opinion, he is wise to do so.

          177. HG Tudor says:


          178. SMH says:

            FYC, I am surprised that anyone would find you a narc. As for our internal filters, yes we have them. Because MRN was so terse in writing, though not in person, and because stranger mode and devaluation always occurred when we were apart and hence through writing (or lack thereof), HG easily triggered me when I first got here – but I also realized that this was because of my conditioning. I try not to ask too many direct questions and to keep them short because I too am aware that his time is precious and limited. Otherwise, I work things out for myself and with the help of the commenters here, though I am pretty stubborn. At this point a lot of it is intellectual curiosity. I think my ET is pretty low these days.

          179. NarcAngel says:

            I prefer brief and direct also, but I have tended to be wordier in some instances because as you identify – some people read tone or intent that is not there. Of course sometimes it will be taken that way no matter the length. It’s a balance. We want to get our thoughts across, but I try to keep in mind that HG is an army of one and reads everything. Most of us have started to make a comment and found ourselves at the end of a novel on occasion, but if it becomes the norm, it takes longer for HG to moderate the comments and leaves less time for him to interact with us and to get to other things we request. This is also one of the reasons we are encouraged to book consultations or pointed to articles and books for answers. There just isn’t enough time. The traffic has increased greatly on the blog and there is still just one moderator. I have feared for some time now that if we do not attempt to regulate ourselves and keep it brief, that something will have to give between all of the platforms HG has to handle, and I hope that it is not the blog due to time constraints. My concern may not be shared by all, but there it is. The irony is that this comment to voice it has now become wordy. I shall have to refrain from making some comments following this, and be brief and direct in others.

          180. K says:

            IRL I have been told that I am curt/blunt which has been perceived as rude, however, brevity is effective communication; short and sweet.

          181. HG Tudor says:


          182. NarcAngel says:

            I have had people blend curt and blunt and call me a cunt. That may seem rude to some, but I am still able to appreciate the brevity.

          183. K says:

            Hahahaha…not rude at all and it’s an excellent portmanteau, as well.

          184. FYC says:

            NA, As always you are most considerate and empathetic. I recall the first time I saw you make a similar comment over a year ago and was impressed by your thoughtful approach. It is amazing HG continuously accomplishes all that he does in a mere 24 hour day, especially as an army of one, in tandem with meeting the demands of a full-time professional career and significant relationship and full social life (per what he shares here). It is beyond impressive. I trust that HG will do as he sees fit in respect to his legacy. He will find a way and will succeed. At the same time, I agree we can all do our part to be mindful of his time, and I thank you, NA, for the reminder. I do hope you will not withhold your comments; I regard them highly and the blog would not be the same in your absence.

          185. FYC says:

            Very funny, HG. You made me laugh until I had a coughing fit. I can see it now, HG’s 7 second bulletins!!

  27. santaann1964 says:

    I’m so dizzy my head is spinning!

  28. njfilly says:

    So the narcissist, preoccupied with obtaining fuel, is oblivious to their significant other honing their marksmanship skills at the rifle range. I wonder how this love triangle ends?

  29. Pingback: Narcissist Vs Shelf IPSS ⋆ NarcTopia
  30. SMH says:

    Typically in any kind of relationship you want to know that the other person likes you and wants to be with you, enjoys your company, etc. To show you that they do, they normally give you attention and affection of their own free will. You shouldn’t have to ask for it. Yet in all of the interactions HG illustrates, including this one, the N is unable to show affection. So why would someone- IPSS or IPPS, fuck buddy or wife- stay with someone like that? Hoodwinked by the GP? Low self esteem? Readers, why did you stay or are you staying with someone who is unable to show you affection?

    1. Violetta says:

      From Stephen Sondheim’s Follies:

      Hello, folks, we’re into the Follies!
      First, though, folks, we’ll pause for a mo’.
      No, no, folks, you’ll still get your jollies–
      It’s just I got a problem that I think you should know.
      See, I’ve been very perturbed of late, very upset,
      Very betwixt and between.
      The things that I want, I don’t seem to get.
      The things that I get–you know what I mean!
      I’ve got those
      and, “Thank-you-for-the-present-but-what’s-wrong-with-It?”
      Margie… Margie… Margie… Margie.
      She says she really love: me.

      I love him-

      -she says.
      She says she really cares.

      I care, I Care.

      She says that I’m her hero.

      He’s my hero-

      -she says.
      I’m perfect, she swears.

      You’re perfect, goddamit.

      She says that if we parted-

      If we parted-

      -she says.
      She says that she’d be sick.

      Oh, God, I’m sick.
      She says she’s mine forever-


      -she says.
      I gotta get outta here quick!
      I’ve got those
      Sally… Sally…Sally…Sally.
      She says she loves another-


      -she says,
      A fella she prefers.

      Furs. Furs.

      She says that he’s her idol.


      -she says.
      Ideal, she avers.

      You deal…”Avers”!!

      She says that anybody-


      -she says,
      Would suit her more than I.

      Aye, aye, aye.

      She says that I’m a washout-

      You’re a washout-

      -she says.
      I love her so much, I could die!

      Ooh. Ooh.
      Ah! Ah!

      I’ve got those






      And “Thank-you-for-the-present-but-what’s-wrong-with-it?”


      “Don’t-come-any-closer-’cause-you-know-how-much-I-love-you” Feelings.



      1. SMH says:

        It’s as old as the hills, Violetta!

        1. Violetta says:

          The frame story of Wuthering Heights opens with that. Narrator Mr Lockwood is in Yorkshire in part to escape a girl he led on:

          While enjoying a month of fine weather at the sea-coast, I was thrown into the company of a most fascinating creature: a real goddess in my eyes, as long as she took no notice of me. I ‘never told my love’ vocally; still, if looks have language, the merest idiot might have guessed I was over head and ears: she understood me at last, and looked a return—the sweetest of all imaginable looks. And what did I do? I confess it with shame—shrunk icily into myself, like a snail; at every glance retired colder and farther; till finally the poor innocent was led to doubt her own senses, and, overwhelmed with confusion at her supposed mistake, persuaded her mamma to decamp. By this curious turn of disposition I have gained the reputation of deliberate heartlessness; how undeserved, I alone can appreciate.

          I used to wonder what use Lockwood was as a character, besides giving Nelly Dean an excuse to tell the story, but this example of his shallowness stands as a contrast to Catherine and Heathcliff’s warped but unbreakable bond.

          1. AnneB says:

            Violetta, Lockwood also, at one point I believe, developed a fancy for Catherine’s daughter, also Catherine, during his enforced stay at Heathcliff’s estate. Don’t we also get a glimpse into Heathcliff’s current state of mind through Lockwood? Heathcliff is still alive at the beginning of the novel when Lockwood arrives?

          2. Violetta says:

            Lockwood doesn’t get it, ever. He thinks Cathy 2 would have enjoyed going to Town with him, not understanding that these characters are bound to the landscape and can’t function anywhere else. Heathcliff obviously considers him a twit, but when he visits Lockwood he seems surpringly civil–Lockwood hasn’t a clue that Heathcliff is just there to see if Lockwood had another vision of Catherine 1.

    2. Notme! says:

      You are very right SMH, the inability to show genuine affection should cause us to disengage from interaction with any human being in our lives. We were, most of us, conned into believing that they showed us affection at some stage.

      Even when I realised that he didn’t like/love/cherish/protect/care, I clung to what I thought/hoped the relationship was. I tolerated situations and behaviours that I knew to be wrong, unhealthy and disrespectful. That is the nature of addiction I suppose.

      I don’t think I’d been imprinted by a previous N, although I was at a low point when I succumbed and the GP was spectacular. I didn’t think that I had low self-esteem, I’m not co-dependent. I’ve always been an independent person.

      I have complete understanding that my Ex is incapable of having a healthy and respectful relationship with me or anyone else. Still, I am unable to let it go and move on. NC seems like hard work rather than disinterested disengagement. It feels like adding insult to injury to me and I wonder if my shame and resentment will ever fade.

      1. SMH says:

        Really well put, Notme! I went through all of that too. I also used to ask him – why me?? What is it that you actually LIKE about me? I was done when I said ‘you will never touch me again unless you can consistently show affection.’ No need for shame and resentment because, as you say, they are incapable of having healthy and respectful relationships with anyone. Imagine a whole life with someone like that.

      2. deniseisdone says:

        If I understood HG correctly the shame will end when logical thinking takes over vs emotional thinking.

    3. AnneB says:

      The N is not necessarily unable to show affection. He often does not “like” intimacy, feigning intimacy including sexual intimacy and affectionate behaviour is just another avenue for gaining fuel and control. In the golden period ex showed affection and feigned intimacy very well, though there was something “off” that I questioned only after the FR was over. He did this to ensure I was ensnared

      For me as IPPS I would say 1. Hoodwinked by the GP (see above); 2. After devaluation commenced I ‘worked” on the relationship on the basis of affectionate respites and glimpse of the GP and the misleading manipulations doled out by the ex; I was also blinded by my own ET and ignored deeper intuitive glimpses of ex’s real character; 3. I had reasonable self esteem going in and was in a period of personal growth. In devaluation my self esteem was slowly eroded salami slice style; 4. Following disengagement I used denial to veil my deteriorated self esteem and put off trying to heal and grieve and instead adopted a highly ET charged truth seeking lifestyle in regard to the ex. This period lasted on and off for just under 24 months. I did carry on with my external life, but my ‘real life’ involved my private truth seeking. My self esteem remained low during this time obviously. It is somewhat better since I ‘came back” about 3 months ago after finding KTN.

      1. Notme! says:

        AnneB do you think that we maintain the connection by engaging here? I know it’s better than engaging with the N, but I do worry/wonder if thinking about narcissism here is less than healthy

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No. That is Emotional Thinking trying to cause you to stay away from a place of logic.

          1. Notme! says:

            Thank you HG, I’m grasping at straws I think.

        2. SMH says:

          Notme! I think for us in some ways that is true, but mostly in the beginning because we cannot see straight. As HG says, it is about the process of learning to use our LT rather than our ET, and it takes awhile. Just to use this article as an example, I have read it several times now at different points, but this time I saw something new. Being here can also be a barometer of our healing and progress.

          1. HG Tudor says:


        3. Violetta says:

          I think there’s a bit of Transference going on here, for many people. Instead of focussing on the narcs who stole our money, cheated on us, blew hot and cold for the pleasure of seeing our confusion, tried to turn everyone we know against us, and all the rest of that lovely stuff, we get something of a long-distance crush on HG, who has done none of these things (to us, anyway), and whom we are highly unlikely ever to meet, and might not be able to identify if we did happen to meet him.

          It’s like crushing on a rock star. Harmless, as long as you don’t accept an invitation to go backstage.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No invitations are offered.

          2. Violetta says:

            A good thing too. Old stories have surfaced about several rock icons who apparently liked them young, as in 12 or 13, which wasn’t as monitored years ago as it is now. (The laws were on the books, but frequently ignored.)

            I thought about how much common sense I had at 13, and realized that if I had been invited backstage by one of them at his peak hotness level, I might have tried to rape him.

          3. cogra002 says:

            I’ve thought similar

          4. Violetta says:

            You’ve thought that about Transference, or you’ve thought about raping Robert Plant when you were 13?

          5. BL says:

            For me personally, I sometimes have the urge to stalk my narc on social media (like right this very moment) and find myself coming here instead. Sometimes it’s just for distraction, sometimes it’s for information, but mostly I know what I say here is both understood and not considered crazy. I only have one friend who knows about my narc, and long ago she told me to just walk away. That simple (I wish). I feel I can’t talk to her anymore because I am annoying her. But she doesn’t fully get my addiction either.

          6. deniseisdone says:

            Transference? Never thought about that…
            I came here for dire help – he’s amazing yes – knowable absolutely – but he’s also a teacher who gives us tools to be successful. Guess I was too busy learning and healing vs anything else.
            Interesting thought though…

          7. NarcAngel says:

            I have likened this blog to Narc methadone. Being here still has us involved with narcissism yes, but in a more benign way. It eases the effects of withdrawal over time until the power of knowledge (a combination of HG’s unrivalled information, the ability to purge our feelings in a safe place, and the validation of others that we are not crazy), has our logic unleashed.

            You may crush on his red shorts, his sense of humour, his command of language, and many other things, but they are all intertwined with his knowledge and writing, which is the ultimate hook and leads to freedom. Therein lies the power of the blog. And ours.

          8. FoolMe1Time says:

            You always put into words what I am thinking and struggling to find the words to write. This is why you are so amazing and can never leave here! 🙃

          9. Pale Horse says:

            Hi NA, how have you been?

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Pale Horse
            I remain unchanged (salty with a side of nuts), but I’d much rather a little update on how you’re faring my friend.

          11. Pale Horse says:

            I am well. Life is much better these days. I am on dry land although I do find myself rowing out to the emotional sea from time to time. But I don’t go out too far and the times are few and far in between. The whole N experience has changed me. Hopefully for the best. It is ironic however, that even one year ago, I wanted revenge in the worst way. These days I could not care less about it. Weird how when you are in a better state of mind to seek it, it is no longer important. I am very thankful to all here that have been there for me when I was at my lowest points. I don’t know if I would be here. When I first discovered this blog, I was in a dark place and did not see any forward moves available in my checkerboard of life. However, with time I was able to find some open moves on the board. I still have the supportive comments from you and others composed into a word document. I look at it occasionally to remind me!

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Pale Horse
            Thank you for the update. It’s great to read about the changes for you, and is an inspiration to others. Plenty of open board. All moves forward.

          13. Pale Horse says:

            Thank you NA!

          14. Violetta says:

            NarcAngel: The command of language gets me every time. (Neutral on the tangerine trousers.)

            Narc methadone. I like. Particularly useful as an antidote to the voices of mid-rangers I haven’t seen in years, but whose putdowns I internalized. We all have them: “Why do you attract people like this?” “But your children need a father!” “She’s never acted like that in front of me.” “He can’t help himself.” “I’m sure she meant well; are you sure you didn’t misinterpret what she said?”

            I can now ask myself, “Whose opinion are you going to value: that of a bunch of word-salading mid-rangers who think spouting a mash-up of Carl Rogers and Dale Carnegie makes them socially skilled, or HG’s?”

            Who knew class-consciousness could be so therapeutic? Damned if I’m going to be drained of any more fuel by the petite bourgeoisie of the Narcworld.

        4. santaann1964 says:

          I often think the same. The drug is in here but knowledge is power. Work it your worth it

        5. AnneB says:

          NotMe! No, I don’t think so. It’s not the same. The connection with ex is only maintained, or would only be reignited, if I broke NC (in any sense). I am in a position where I do not need to break NC unless I choose to (for e.g looking at his social media). I don’t count thinking about ex as breaking NC when it is part of me trying to get past it by engaging with H.Gs materials. However, there is still ET involved, when it gets too much I try to take breaks of find distraction. The Xmas Captives was great for this as Xmas/New Year are dangerous times for someone as addicted to the ex as me.

      2. SMH says:

        Horrible that you had to go through that, AnneB, but heartening that you have started to recover. I can relate to a lot of it except that I don’t think I ever had low self esteem – just off the charts anxiety. But then I was IPSS and never seriously devalued (never got a serious golden period either). So my pain was probably not as great as what others on here have had. I just thought I was giving him what he wanted but for every move I made, he would do the opposite, which is what I told him in the end – tired of feeling like a ping pong ball. Funny that you knew there was something ‘off’ because I also knew and dumped him a month in for the first of FIVE times because I thought he was controlling. I am sure he is still expecting me to resurface.

        Still, now as we all struggle with NC etc, it is worth reminding ourselves that relationships of all sorts are give and take, and once they stop being such they are unhealthy and over because they are not relationships.

        I wish you continued healing!

        1. Notme! says:

          Very helpful thoughts SMH and timely for me. Thank you x

          1. SMH says:

            Happy to hear that, Notme! I don’t think we can have too many reminders! x

        2. AnneB says:

          Thanks SMH! I’m a tough nut to crack but I will crack myself and get past this with HG’s help. I’m on the edge of taking the next big step.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest AnneB,
            You’re an Aussie …….. we’re tough buggars
            You can do this
            I have faith in you
            Aussie Aussie Aussie oi oi oi !
            We’re all here for you 😍
            Much luv always
            Bubbles xx 😘

          2. AnneB says:

            Thanks Bubblesxo

          3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest AnneB,
            You’re welcome my lovely one
            You’re here …. the only way is up and out
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    4. Kim e says:

      Hi Sweets. So funny you posted this. I have been semi bad but it is something I had to do for me as an experiment
      I had no intention of contacting but unblocked on my phone 3 days ago. My NC anxiety instantly went away and a calmness came over me
      I then read this and blocked him again. Anxiety growing as I type
      Why did I do this you ask? Just because I am a stubborn empath that needed to prove to myself that NC is a bitch. ET is already feeling stress.
      I equate this to when I quit smoking. When I wasn’t smoking ( equate to unblocked) I felt ok. When I started smoking again (equate to blocking) I felt like shit. But I knew I had to quit smoking (equate to narcing) because it was not good for me
      So…… as unhappy as my ET is I am going back to NC and hanging on for my journey to start again. Sometimes being stubborn is needed to teach a lesson. Hopefully some of the NC from before is still in my LT.

      1. SMH says:

        Hi Kim e darling, Yes I guess I forgot to add addiction! I have read this article several times before and I never understood it the way I did yesterday, so I guess that is progress! I think it is really important to be around people who love and like us so that we remember how to make healthy choices and what that is supposed to look like. My New Year’s resolution is to remember that and to work towards it all the time.

        So you unblocked. Well, I don’t think that is a huge breach of NC. I have done worse through online creeping. It might have set my recovery back but I still consider NC to have started after the last time we saw each other, even if HG does not approve. That is because at least for me it gets easier all the time and I think it must for you too. It takes awhile for the addiction to subside, as with smoking. Though you say that when you were smoking you felt like shit? If smoking is the equivalent of narcing, does that mean that if you were to be in touch with N again you would feel like shit? You mean psychologically? If so, that is good to keep in mind. You are better off without him, just as you are better off without cigs, even if they make you feel good in the moment. Smooches and Happy New Year!

      2. santaann1964 says:

        Yes the experiment! Fascinating but dangerous! It’s a rush

        1. Kim e says:

          The experiment really fucked me up. I accomplished what I wanted but now ET high again.
          Maybe my next experiment will be the let’s see if we can just be friends experiment….lol
          Boredom is not my friend 😀🥃

          1. Notme! says:

            Kim e
            I’ve been thinking it’s guilt. I was expecting a birthday hoover, prepared for it etc. It came, but not in the way I expected so it caught me off guard and I so nearly unblocked him to tell him to fuck off. Now I’m mad at mtself for being weak – feeling guilty. He’s a devious, clever and twattish MRN and no matter what anyone says, I think he considered what was most likely to get a rise out of me when he chose his hoover strategy, even though he doesn’t know it was a hoover. I was irritated by him but now I’m just annoyed at me.

          2. Kim e says:

            Hi Notme
            What do you mean he didn’t know it was a hoover?
            PS. Happy Belated Birthday

        2. Notme! says:

          Kim e
          Sorry missed this
          I meant he wasn’t aware that he was hoovering. In his head, he’s a nice guy who was being courteous by contacting me in my birthday.
          The fact that sending someone you’re involved with, flowers and a card is kind and thoughtful. Sending an ex a box of chocolate anuses is a bit more tenuous 😂

          1. Notme! says:

            Excuse the composition, was distracted before sending

          2. Kim e says:

            NotMe……I thought that is what you meant. I just wanted to clarify.
            Sounds like my MRN. I got asked for 4 days in a row…when is your birthday…?
            On my birthday I got “good Evening and happy birthday sweetheart”. Made my heart pitter patter and my stomach trun at the same time. Unfortunatly the pitter patter won that round……

    5. deniseisdone says:

      SMH I totally agree and it was HG who made me understand the narc and directed me (all of us really) to go NC the correct way. I’ve done just that. Proud to say NC for 9 months and going strong! Let them go for your own sanity please!!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well done

      2. SMH says:

        Deniseisdone, that’s fantastic! I have been NC for over 18 months. I’ve had more than a few wobbles but I don’t really count those as breaking NC, though HG would.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          And it’s my standard that is THE standard to ensuring freedom.

          1. santaann1964 says:

            It is!

          2. SMH says:

            I know, HG, but there is really nothing to block and my impulses are pretty much under control. I haven’t done anything that brings me ‘face-to-face’ with him.

          3. AnneB says:

            SMH, I did nothing that brought me into direct contact with ex for over 12 months. I broke NC though in other ways, private ways, and that is what kept me addicted. I’m still addicted. If you want to break your addiction I think it is best to aim for proper NC whilst accepting relapses. I think it is important to try and acknowledge that when the relapse from proper NC occurs (and it did for me on a couple of occasions after I started reading here but has not since I think mid-late November last year, not sure but well before Xmas) that NC has been broken and this will have the effect of keeping you tied to the N and increase emotional thinking. During my lengthy periods of not being NC but with no direct contact, my actions and thoughts also served to cover the reality of the state of my self esteem.

          4. SMH says:

            AnneB, Happy to hear you are ready to take the next big step. What will it be? I understand what you are saying but it is hard to know what keeps me from getting my impulses under control. Am I still addicted? Maybe, but I wasn’t post escape – we were in contact for several months and not once was I tempted to return to the FR. Do I want to be forgiven for my part in the whole mess? Probably. Am I curious? Definitely. Am I truth seeking? Clearly, even though I know there is no truth. Is it keeping me from getting into another relationship because I don’t want one? Possibly. Does staying here constitute a breach of NC? I think it does because it makes me think about the N just as much as anything else I do indirectly – even more so because I am more focused. So how do I stay here yet not breach NC? Seems impossible.

          5. AnneB says:

            SMH, Staying here and learning here doesn’t constitute a breach of NC from my POV. When I have relapsed outside of here however, in the instances mentioned, my ET has risen and set me back. I can understand how in that situation, being here when in conjunction with breaking proper NC (ex social media peeking for e.g.), might then begin to be perceived as the cause of breaking NC or part of breaking NC, but that is, from my POV, a result of the rise in ET that comes from breaking NC with the N ( breaking proper NC). I break NC very time I think about the ex as a result of ‘checking up on him” surreptitiously. My learning here is subsequently affected because of the rise in ET – that may mainifest in different ways.

          6. SMH says:

            AnneB, Got it. That makes sense. It’s just that sometimes I come on here and focusing all of my thoughts and energies on the N, because of what I am writing about, makes my ET rise. It can also be cathartic but I mostly do not think about him much these days except when I am on here. Still, I am learning a lot and everything I learn keeps me from potentially breaking NC or responding to a hoover, so for that reason alone, it is worth it to occasionally immerse myself in thinking about him. Ironic that thinking about it is what protects us but I guess it’s necessary.

          7. SMH says:

            AnneB, I just read your comment about how you don’t consider thinking about the N to be breaking NC. I guess I have not broken it either, then. I don’t look at his sm – not even sure that he has any at this point, though I could easily find out. I don’t look directly at IPPS’s sm anymore either – I did a lot when we were together because I was trying to figure them out. But the last time I looked directly was months ago and the pattern had changed. I had been studying it for so long that I instantly ‘knew’ that she had finally come to her senses, so that is what I told myself and I left it at that!! This is what will make me stop looking – that I want to think that I won, so I will tell myself that I won and believe that I won. lol. Might be delusional but it also might work!! Anything to achieve NC, right?

          8. AnneB says:

            SMH, I am actually aiming towards “anything that achieves zero impact”. Maintaining NC is part of getting there. I have many difficulties but am moving forward slowly. The next step is finishing up the Narc Detector and sending it off to H.G.

          9. AnneB says:

            “…about how you don’t consider thinking about the N to be breaking NC”. No, that is out of context.

            For me, thinking about the N is breaking NC when it occurs as a result of “no direct contact” action

            For example
            – searching internet for info about him (even if I find nothing, or nothing I haven’t seen before);
            – searching for info about any of his friends/coterie/circle/current intimate sources or what-have-you to try and get some info.
            -a quick check of his social media
            – a longer check of his social media
            -repetitive checks of his social media
            -visiting a mutual acquaintance with the hope that she may say something about his current situation
            -checking that acquaintance’s social media for same.
            -raising him with friends IRL in order to have a convo and bitch about him.
            – deliberately going places where I know the N might be and then thinking about him or hoping to catch a glimpse of him (aka stalking according to many laws).

          10. SMH says:

            AnneB, Then I have broken NC many times, though rarely direct (that is, I no longer look at his social media – he doesn’t really have any anyway – I don’t google him, I don’t know anyone who knows him so there is no one to ask etc). But less and less as time goes on. I think I made up a narrative in my head that I want to stick to and I am no longer that curious or want to get back on the roller coaster.

        2. deniseisdone says:

          SMH that is wonderful!! So proud for you!!! Congratulations! I’ve had plenty of bad moments too which I would say is par for the course but never swayed the NC (cried a lot) so I’d say we both have done great and HG did take us to dry land and then up to a tower! HUGS!!!

          1. SMH says:

            deniseisdone, Those emotional sea pieces are so spot on and what a relief to make it to dry land, except for the occasional incoming tide. Time to get away from the beach for good!

            Did you escape or were you discarded? I escaped but in some ways I think it’s easier to be discarded because then it is not up to you. It is hard to control my own impulses – I left so many times and went back. But that was all before I found HG.

          2. deniseisdone says:

            I know where you’re coming from! You’ll get there I promise – you’re just steps away.
            I was disengaged from – didn’t know what had happened and knew nothing about narcissism. Oh I was so naive (🙄) so I went in search of answers. True story here and it still amazes me: went to Google to see what I could learn – narcissist kept coming up – went to YouTube (still just learning ) and videos were everywhere but the first one I clicked on was HG and I never looked back. I’ve always said and will always state God knew exactly what I needed and who could help me and HG was the one! First time I heard his voice he scared me but I kept going through his videos, listening, making notes, crying but kept learning. I owe HG basically my sanity and life and I thank God for leading me there. I still listen to him and probably always will. Thinking about that day still moves me – I was only steps away from a huge black abyss, God knew and HG was my blessing!
            I always mention HG when posting and I pray some will go to listen to him – he has the ability to guide us to safety if we just trust in him. I’m grateful for him personally!!
            In all honesty me being disengaged from had to be as at the time I would have never left – hell I thought he was a good guy!!! I was devalued but missed it – HG stated it was done behind my back. Lord I was so dumb 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️
            Sorry so long! I’m so proud of us and I strongly know we will both be fine!Have a wonderful restful day and HUGS!!!!

        3. Violetta says:

          Reading here isn’t nearly as catastrophic for my addiction as the time I decided to look through my old diaries from the time I was working with Wanna-Be Playuh Narc, in an effort to understand how I could have had such a misguided notion of who he was

          Bad, bad decision.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Correct and at least you realise now that it was a bad decision

    6. Supernova DE says:

      For me I stayed because I was conditioned by BOTH of my parents that:
      1) indifference is normal
      2) affection is given only upon achievement or when doing what is wanted of you (and maybe not even then)
      3) spontaneous affection is not welcome (ie I could tell it was purely to achieve gratification on their end)
      4) to be vulnerable and open in relationships is an extreme liability that will lead to pain

      MMRN allowed a level of intimacy (or lack thereof) I was comfortable with, while providing sexual release and to boot reminded my inner child I was not worthy of affection or respect or emotional validation.

      1. SMH says:

        Supernova DE, Great insights. I can definitely relate.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Good observations. Hell, indifference can seem like love depending on the type of abuse one experiences.

        Some think it’s love because of the lack of physical abuse. My sister for example using StepN (her bio dad) as a bar, is ripe for the manipulations of the victim mid she is now with because he doesn’t use physical violence. He seems like a concerned Prince next to StepN yet is damaging all the same. She is blinded by her definition of abuse.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “She is blinded by her definition of abuse.”

          A simple, true statement that speaks volumes.

          I didn’t grow up in a physically violent home (in fact, the first time I experienced physical abuse from my mother was as an adult) but still, my perspective on abuse (pre-HG) was based on stereotypical concepts of abuse that represented only a small portion of the range of narcissistic behaviours – mainly overt physical and/or sexual abuse.

          I never viewed my situation as “abusive” until after the fact – (although it was verging on physical at the end.)

          1. honestyrocks777 says:

            I too didnt understand abuse and also saw it as very overt and physical :/

            I still have a hard time with what IS mental emotional and psychological abuse.

        2. Supernova DE says:

          I agree. I only realize now after so much learning here as well as in my own therapy how much neglect I must have been subjected to. I have no memory of it. I had everything I “needed” as a child, a comfortable middle class home, extensive possessions, food, etc. Emotional starvation affects us as well though, and is so often overlooked.

          HG has too much to do already, but I think it would be fascinating to take polls here regarding attachment styles. A narc, by definition, is dismissive avoidant. Co-deps would almost exclusively be anxious-preoccupied. But I wonder about the standards and supers, or if there are patterns based on cadres.

          Personally I’m fearful avoidant, which means I want and crave intimacy but have a hard time opening up to achieve that based on fear/expectation of being hurt.

          My husband is secure, which gives me stability and decreases my anxiety in our relationship The MMRN, with his avoidance, combined with my own, as well as his ability to “shut down” as a dismissive, amplified the anxious part of me. Cue fireworks and conflict over and over and over again.

          The MMRN could never understand how I could be freaking out begging him to talk to me one minute, then aloof and monosyllabic for weeks. He was accustomed to a more anxious/consistently clinging style, and was perplexed by my avoidance. I was not what he knew, and it showed.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Supernova—I like the term “emotional starvation.” It resonates deeply.

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