Caught In A Lie



I have explained previously that lying is like breathing for our kind. Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists tell lies and believe them, they are their truth. They do not recognise that they are lying and therefore there is no question of guilt, remorse or conscience because they do not see that they are doing something which is seen as wrong by you. Such is the joy of ignorance.

Greater Narcissists tell lies where some are believed by the Greater, the True Believer Status of those narcissists which operate in the rarefied atmosphere of control, power and privilege and are responsible for many of the glories and ills of the world you inhabit. However, much of the lies of the Greater are conscious lies and are told because of our innate Machiavellian nature wherein the end justifies the means and therefore there is nothing to be lost by knowingly lying and everything to gain. Unhindered by guilt, conscience or remorse, we will knowingly tell lies to serve our needs which will include the sheer entertainment of knowing we are lying and the impact it has on our victims.

What about when the narcissist is caught in a lie? Many of you will have witnessed this. The Greater is not caught in a lie because the sheer force of our lies, the level of our intellect and the extent of our scheming means that the lie is either undetectable or if it is, we are not caught in it. There is always an exit, whether that is through charm, massive plausible deniability or the operation of some manipulation, the Greater may occasionally have a lie exposed, but is never caught in it.

But what about the the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist? You will have caught them in a lie on many occasions. What happens and surely their reaction means that they know they are caught lying?

No, it does not.

If you boldly accuse a narcissist of lying or you are less candid so you present a contradictory state of affairs between what the narcissist has said and some other evidence, what will you be met with?

This amounts to a challenge to the narcissist. You will be presenting Challenge Fuel and thus there is no wounding. However, your challenge to the narcissist by suggesting, forcefully or with subtlety that he or she has lied, is stating that the narcissist is wrong and thus you are offending the narcissists sense of superiority and seeking to pin accountability on the narcissist. You are not allowed to do this.

These challenges to superiority through our sense of entitlement to do what we want and need and to the lack of accountability threaten our control. Thus you will meet the First Line of the Twin Narcissistic Lines of Defence, which is denial.

You will be told that you are wrong, that this never happened, that you are incorrect, that you are making scandalous accusations, that your memory is haphazard or that you are making things up. All of these things and others amount to denial.

Denial will be maintained again and again and again until either you give up (thus giving the narcissist control and your challenge has ended) or you present something (usually independent corroborative evidence (such as a text, a picture, a video recording or somebody else’s testimony). If you do the latter you break through the First Line and thus you expose the lie.

This means the narcissist MUST in order to maintain control, fall back to the Second Line of the Narcissistic Twin Lines of Defence, which is in effect, any other manipulation and we have plenty of those. To understand more about the Twin Lines of Narcissistic Defence, read The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence.

However, if you break through the First Line and present evidence showing a disconnect between what the narcissist says has happened and something else, has the narcissist not seen that he has lied? Does he not gain knowledge that he has lied? Is she not now fixed with realisation that she has lied?


The reaction you see is not of realisation that a lie has been exposed but instead the reaction to the loss of control, which you, understandably (because of your worldview) but mistakenly, see as realisation of been caught lying.

It is not.

It is a realisation that something is not right. The unconscious loss of control manifests in a conscious response through the application of the Second Line.

Thus, this is why the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist does not know that he or she is lying and does not see the lie has been exposed, they merely sense a threat to their control and you become the problem which results in the application of a further manipulation through the application of the Second Line.

Dependent on the school of narcissist, the response may be plausible or be completely ridiculous, but it will be used because the narcissist is blind to the lie. All that matters is asserting control and quashing your challenge in some way.

You may receive some ridiculous comment which lacks credibility but it will be accompanied by a manipulation such as physical violence, smashing the phone on which your evidence is presented, a circular conversation, a bout of projection, a sudden massive word salad or any other form of manipulation from the many at our disposal, but it will always come.

It is akin to those films where someone is home alone and the madman or monster bursts into the house. The victim falls backwards, frantically scrambling away and reaching for anything, absolutely anything to use against the advancing threat to counter it. Sometimes the victim will reach for a gun and shoots countering the aggressor, thus that narcissist came up with a plausible response to being caught in a lie, sometimes the victim throws a knife, a candlestick or a rubber chicken. All have varying levels of effectiveness – just like the plausibility of the lie. Often you will still see through it, but it is the accompanying manipulation which enables the narcissist to scramble free of being caught in the lie.

You know the lie has been told, but that is not the issue. It is control and that is what the narcissist seeks. Even if the lie remains live and on the record, if control has been attained by punching you, flouncing off, shouting at you or embarking on a thirty minute word salad monologue then that is all that matters.

But now, let us hear from you, when you have caught the narcissist in a lie, share with u, those absolute corkers and belters that would have Pinocchio embarrassed. Explain the circumstances and what was said and then look at what else happened alongside it to realise how it is not so much the lie that matters but the need for control.


65 thoughts on “Caught In A Lie

  1. Tammy says:

    Cloudy, Your situation can change if you want it to. 3 decades is a long time to be lied to. You mentioned being able to spot the lies and letting them think they are fooling you but why would you want to keep doing that? You don’t deserve that. The good news is at least you know what you’re dealing with. You have support from people on here. Whether you stay in your situation or not, I wish you the best.

  2. Cloudy says:


    These Individuals lie & convince THEMSELVES they are telling the truth.

    Its very visible to me.

    I laugh & agree with them.

    Let them feel special.

  3. Tammy says:

    HG, In your response to Argb regarding whether or not the message she received was word salad, I’ve had similar messages that did not follow the string of the previous message so I assumed it had to be sent to me by mistake when in fact in several instances the message was actually intended for me. (or so they said). I concluded the person either lied about who the message was really intended for, or it actually was word salad, trying to completely throw off the topic of the original conversation and causing confusion. Even saying it didn’t follow the original string and I must not have received previous messages. Or, not wanting to admit they sent it by saying someone must have hacked their phone. This happened in my situation with the ex N when I would receive a message that was clearly meant for another woman.
    Sometimes it can be hard to know what circumstance is at play. Anyway, just an observation of how whether it’s lies, word salad or whatever, if something feels off it’s because it is. Normal (and healthy) relationships don’t leave you constantly confused.

  4. Cloudy. If guilt is something which is affecting you, take a read of sins of the empath.

  5. Cloudy says:

    Ive caught my partner in multiple lies over the 3 decades.

    I played along with it.

    But I was never fooled.

    Fortunately they thought they showed power by me agreeing.

    Oh well.

    Lets them feed on there own false fuel.

    1. Tammy says:

      Cloudy, I hope you are not still with this person.

      1. Cloudy says:

        Lucky Me!🙄

      2. Cloudy says:

        Unfortunately Im in love with this person & Im struggling to leave as my emotions & guilt take over.

      3. Cloudy says:


        Nothing will change with my situation!

        Cant cry over spilled milk.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “Im struggling to leave as my emotions & guilt take over.”

          That is your ET trying to keep you engaging the narcissist.

          I hope you keep reading here and follow through with consulting HG.

          I had huge guilt and my narc’s had me convinced everything was my fault. It’s very powerful…but so must be the desire to be free, if you are reading here.

          1. Cloudy says:

            Im beginning to use my logical mind and believe you cant buy love.

            If its not there naturally then no need to ask for it.

  6. santaann1964 says:

    Lies lies lies lies lies and lies!

  7. Lamb says:

    After decades of lies I no longer know what’s a lie and what’s the truth. I haven’t trusted anything he’s said for years.
    Lies about texts , emails, finances, other women, work . You name it, he’s lied about it. Lies of both omission and commission.
    His first line of defense, denial. Then quickly moves on to shouting in hopes it will quiet my well founded accusation.
    In all these years I think I got perhaps one or two half assed apologies.
    He resorts to calling me crazy, and telling me I’ve made it up, it never happened, despite having the proof in my hand. He usually admits the lie if I call his bluff and threaten to get a third party involved to verify the lie.

  8. wildviolet22 says:

    Mine prided himself on his “honesty”, which he whipped out when he was tearing someone apart with his vicious verbal attacks (he was just being honest).

    Also, I think presenting himself this way, was supposed to be some sort of a decoy, trying to preemptively throw you off his tracks for when he was being a liar (because after all, his honesty was one of his top character traits).

    You could usually figure out what was going on, because his memory was terrible, and he couldn’t keep his stories straight. Also, he projected big time, accused other people of what he was doing- of being a liar, deceitful, lies of omission, etc. Usually the target was whatever woman/ women he was devaluing/ smearing at the time.

  9. Dany says:

    The one I was with hacked my email and read a journal to myself about my plan to seperate. He then came to me w a notepad and asked if we could talk. Without ever mentioning what he read, he quoted my words verbatim. Then made a list of what needed to be changed & asked if he did those things, would I stay? Nothing changed. I emailed him (to avoid word salad), calling him out on everything- saying I didnt think he cared about the kids and didnt want to be a parent, he didnt seem to care about me, etc. I also said I was offended he but let it go bc I was hopeful about the changes. His response was something like ‘i disagree w most of this but i absolutely did not hack your email. I would never do that. If I repeated your words, it is just bc I actually listen to you.’ Funny where he felt like he needed to take a stand and clarify. He also texted himself from my phone propositioning sex. I was sleeping on the couch to avoid him when he woke me up to ‘take me up on my offer.’ He tried to convince me I sent it and then started begging. I added a password to the phone and changed my email passwords. Lo and behold, no more verbatim regurgitated sentences or propositions.

    1. Getting There says:

      Hello, Dany.
      My phone was looked at. When I asked if he did, the answer was no. I told him why I thought he did. He then admitted to it but stated he only did one thing on it. I knew he was lying. Thank goodness for passwords.
      The text yours sent “from you” to proposition for sex is just one of those that make me realize that thinking through on actions doesn’t always apply.

  10. Argb says:

    Hello everyone…
    Heres the newest for me.
    Completely new person. Female. Someone i want(ed) to help.
    So, she mentions needing help moving. Says she needs to be out by 7pm.Doesnt fill me in with various other important details (obviously…some days im such a sucker! But how i could i know, right? Lol!)
    Moving to me means inside to outside & possibly travel from one place (moving from) to another place (storage or moving to). Maybe i didnt verify…okay.
    Weather is horrific! Pelting rain.
    I say i need to stop at home to get rain gear…then i get a text.
    **In brackets is the paraphrasing of the poss narc i am dealing with**
    (just need you inside to help keep me focussed).
    Okay let me get something to eat..i will come out.
    (need help taking stuff to truck)
    Okay so i will be outside? (yeah)
    Okay. Be there asap.
    (people bailed & hubby didnt hire movers like he said he would. Just you and me. Are you here yet?)
    I live 45 min away from you as you know. No, im not there yet.

    I get out on the highway. 2 accidents occur on the highway as im trying to reach her.
    I text: unable to reach you on time. Turning round going home.

    This is what i get in return:

    (Yes the decision by landlord tenant board not the courts was to be out by dec 31 … landlord gave extension to move out it’s taking time I’m not strong hubby did not call movers like said he would ppl bailed …
    We did however go to arbitration at which he lied and said he’s moving in which he’s not since he’s already got permits to subdivide and build and had somebody look at the property to lift and move the house we are in which means he would not be living in it. He also owns nine other houses that I know of and his family is part of his construction company and buying and selling houses, realtors, mortgage brokers, other things he tried to sell us a house in Vancouver for 2.6 million
    So I looked up what a sheriff is and does NBC end it looks like a sheriff takes a court judgement or a direction and execute it. To my knowledge we were never taken to court nor was there any decision rendered in any court facility so therefore he is bluffing… Does that sound accurate to you?)…

    I did not respond.

    Is this what word salad is? There was definitely something weird going on here.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic we were discussing and of course **i presume** this is meant to pose more questions **which it did** and keep me off balance from the topic… i did not respond or query.

    What is your take on this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Argb,

      What is written makes sense in itself and therefore is not a word salad. It obviously does not follow the thread of your conversation and I suspect what has happened is that a message for someone else has reached you. This does happen with narcissists, but of itself, this in isolation does not mean the person is a narcissist. If you have concerns about whether this person is or is not a narcissist, I recommend that you organise a narc detector consultation.

  11. ANM says:

    There are hardly any consequences for someone who lies, even under oath. That is why narcissist use it at any chance they get, and a reason they fear intimacy.

  12. Caity says:

    He lied about everything *especially* things that didn’t matter. I actually had a mental log if each one, like planting a little flag at my feet each time he did…to look back on later? Eventually, I couldn’t see the floor or move for the ‘warning’ flags and the only one I had was the largest I clung to, named ‘things to be looked at later’.

    He also blame shifted when caught out: lied about going back to his ex and when I gave irrefutable proof he said his lie was because “did you think I would actually risk losing a friend?” etc. By then, I didn’t care anymore about him, it was all about forcing him to admit lies. Almost OCD, actually, like having to unsnarl Xmas lights because….reasons. Finally, gave up on that…it was just another symptom of the overall disease; for every snarl I unwound, 6 or 7 more took their place. Eventually, I laughed at the madness. ET wanted me to ferret out the truth; LT gave me the right and the strength to realise it really didn’t matter if I succeeded or not and to just let it go.

    The very last lie was the funniest, I have to admit. I had texted him on Easter morning and we had a rather long, rather easy conversation and I asked what he was going to do with his holiday afternoon. By then we had disengaged so the questuon was a general one, from me. And i know he knew that. He said he was working; was actually at work as we were texting. I literally gaped at the phone. I knew, *everyone* knew his entire company was closed (and locked up btw) that day. I ended the call, shook my head and never looked back.

    1. Kathleen says:

      Amazing— 😂. It becomes funny once you’re far enough out of it. Truly crazy.

  13. Mine lied to me about having an affair. I caught him out fair and square, emails, texts and even spoke to the mistress (as a previous suspicious situation he had managed to wriggle out of so this time i went for full clarity) – she didnt know she was a mistress. She and me compared notes. I had the whole timeline, I had the lies he used to conceal it and the lies he had told her. Worst of this? I continued in this relationship for 4 more years and in its death throes he stared me in the eyes and said ‘I never had an affair’. Of course, the words of love and apology 4 years earlier were also lies. Oh for those 4 years back. If you want to know what i did when he told me he had never had an affair well i gave him a fuel laden response, i took all his stuff he had in my house and put it in the fire and burnt it in front of him. Later on he actually admitted having stupidly lied about not having an affair but it was all my fault as i had been pressurising him in the argument. Ffs, i cannot believe the bollocks we put up with.

  14. SMH says:

    Well, where to begin. The day we met, MRN lied about being divorced and about his name. The second one was the real corker because he knew our kids went to the same school, as did I back in the day. I accessed the online yearbooks. When I was unable to match any of the kids with the surname he gave me, I knew that he had lied. That was within a week. Then he told me his real first name because he had forgotten the original one. When I pointed it out to him, he got that deer in the headlights look. He finally did admit that he had lied. He even apologized. But he still let me believe that he was divorced. That one I could not crack because I was away and couldn’t insist on going to his house or anything like that.

    He would never admit to any lies of omission, such as cheating on IPPS (he even vehemently denied that he was lying to her). He would only admit to lies of commission.

    ExLH – I once made him sign a post-it note that it was his decision to sell his house. Why? Because he would rewrite history all the time and I knew that if/when we split up, he would blame me that he had no place to live.

  15. Liane says:

    I have seen how a narc lies with such conviction, that he must have believed his lie. But it puzzles me how this is possible. For example if a narc tells his wife that he was working late when in reality he was with another woman, has his memory of this evening been erased and replaced with him working late? What then happens when the other woman calls and mentions that evening? Will he reply: what are you talking about, we were not together because I was working?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The narcissism will revise history and reinstate as and when is required for the purposes of exerting control over the relevant appliances. This is why black becomes white and was never black in the first place and don’t you dare suggest it ever was, because actually it is orange.
      Lesser and Mid Range tell lies and do believing them to be their truth.
      Greaters know lies are being told.

  16. Mercy says:

    In 2015/2016 Donald Trump said when he is president all department stores will say Merry Christmas again instead of Happy Holidays.

    December 2019 he says all department stores are now saying Merry Christmas.

    I know, irrelevant to his presidency and the current situation(s), but come on! Even if your not updated on what’s happening in Washington, any average person can see the lies.

    1. SMH says:

      Mercy, That gave me a giggle. Liar in Chief!

    2. Lorelei says:

      He also didn’t sleep with the porn star.. I can’t even call off work and lie without guilt!

      1. Mercy says:

        Lorelei and SMH, the things that come out of his mouth is absurd. I’m not making a political stand by saying bad things about Trump. I just think he’s the poster child of narcissism.

        1. Lorelei says:

          He’s a mess but his brash style is actually refreshing for someone (me) that has been walked on quite a bit. I have no distinct political adoration because I see points from all angles in many cases, but he’s interesting despite the embarrassing stuff. I think John McCain disinvited him to his funeral? A likely mid-ranger fuck you to a lesser.. Priceless! I view behavior in general with a new appreciation!

          1. ANM says:

            It was a Midranger ‘fuck you’. Even though John McCain is a POW, his family is more closely tied to the Elite Republican Party. Trump appeals to the working class and Evangelical Republicans more. It’s amazing how I will recieve an occasional group text messages from a family member, and the topic gets diverted to politics, and someone has to claim the Trump is the chosen ONE from God, and “God’s will”. I’m like, “ok sure he is”.

          2. Lorelei says:

            John McCain fucked over his first wife quite profoundly. Granted, anyone’s marriage can end and there can be stressors and it can be non-narcissist related. John McCain was much more my flavor than a Trump. There is no way Trump could entice me into dinner—he’s embarrassing. Like I bet he has Hawaii boxers and is oblivious to good

          3. Mercy says:

            ANM, is this a thing? Saying he’s the chosen one. That’s the second time I heard it in the last few days

        2. SMH says:

          Agreed, Mercy, but malignant narcissism and he is dangerous.

  17. Jennifer says:

    When I caught my ex in a verifiable lie, he packed up his belongings after 3.5 years and has never been back. There were many lies before, but this one was undeniable and happened in person. Of course, he stated he lied because he knew I would overreact.

  18. ThirstforKnowledge says:

    My Narcissistic ex BF told me many years ago that his brother was sexually molested as a child. His brother has bipolar disorder as an adult. My ex BF and I were talking a couple years ago and I brought this up in reference to some current behaviors his brother was displaying and he said that the sexual abuse never happened. I said yes I did, you told me he was molested as a child. He said no, he wasn’t. It was then that I realized that he was lying to me about this and other things. Indeed, his brother WAS molested as a child. When I asked him why he was lying he said he didn’t recall telling me that. Not that it wasn’t true, just that he didn’t recall saying it to me.

    Another time I told him I was going to be in town for work. He insisted that we get together during the day and meet up and that he wanted to introduce me to his friends later that evening at a get together. When it was close to the date that I was going to town he told me that I must be mistaken he never said we were going yo get together during the day. Only that maybe we would get together in the evening. It was so strange because I never asked him to meet up with me, he had insisted that I put aside a day for him. And then afterwards he said that it never happened.

    I have known this person since he was 18 years old. At the time he was 38 years old. It was quite upsetting to figure out that he was lying to me. I did not remember him having this type of personality as a child.

    HG-is it possible that this personality was dormant and that something brought it out as an adult? I just don’t see this person as being a narcissist in the early years. But for sure he is a narcissist. How does this occur and could something occur that would make the narcissist’s personality bloom?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello TFK, he will have been a narcissist since formation in childhood and when you knew him as a child the narcissism will not have been prevalent and has formed during childhood with a clearer manifestation at an older age. It does not form in adulthood.

  19. Corvino says:

    Months ago my narc ex went on a trip to Italy, she didn’t tell me anything but sent only a photo to keep me guessing where the h*** she was. When she returned she said she went alone because I was upset (I was not) and sure I would’t go with her. Many months later, after she discarded me, she said in a casual conversation that she never went alone (she didn’t remember the previous lie), but with her new lover wich I didn’t knew it existed at the time. Now I see I was in devaluation period. She told me she didn’t said anything in order to not get me upset. She lied to me only for my own benefict. Wich demonstrates how generous narcissists are…

    1. BL says:

      Corvino, what was your relationship with her if she was casually telling you about her new lover? Back to “friends” ?

      1. Corvino says:

        Not really. After 9 years relationship my emotional thinking was very high, and some months after discard I was hoovered several times, not to get back into the relationship as she was with the new victim, but to get some fuel I guess and some additional beneficts (repairing things at her home mainly, which I did because it didn’t bothered to me and I though that getting in touch with her would spread some light into the ocean of confussion I was in). HG would kill me for doing that, because it was not a good idea. I understood that she went on holiday with the new partner less than two weeks after meet him, and in no time started to sleep at his house, and then went to live with him in his house (always HIS house, never hers), I discovered in this casual “friendly” conversations a great layer of lies from the begining of our relationship, and all kind of emotional abuses and manipulations I’ve been through these years not knowing if this person was crazy or was all my fault. I ended up deciding to put a strict no contact, after she blamed me jealous and egocentric and calling names, and five minutes later proposing me to spend a night together on Xmas. No contact forever is the only way to not get completely nuts.

        1. AnneB says:

          Corvino, I am so sorry to hear all of this. It is a terribly painful thing to discover that lies and deceptions occurred during the relationship, post disengagement. I was sincerely and completely shocked, post disengagement when I discovered ex had lied in various ways during the relationship. It had not crossed my mind at any time that that would have been a remote possibility.

          1. Corvino says:

            Yes, its very hard to know all of this “a posteriori”. But you know: they always always always do the same. In my case I’ve been told, from a reliable source, that she’s cheating on her new partner with her boss. I wonder if in some time this new partner will be posting here with us, lol

          2. Violetta says:

            Once she’s devalued and discarded the latest partner, perhaps the reliable source could direct him to this site.

            Or before, but the latest partner might not believe it–unless it’s phrased as “Have you looked at Narcsite? I’m seeing descriptions that fit so many people I’ve known: exes, bosses, even my crazy cousin.”

            This might get a better reception than “You do know that Corvino’s ex is a narcy ho, don’t you?”

          3. Corvino says:

            Violetta thank you for your idea, but the source doesn’t know the partner, only knows the boss and the narc and what’s going on, as they all work in the same floor in the corp. Actually I think the narc has forbidden his new victim to pass near the building, I knew her very well and I know how she’s able to manipulate an empath to do exactly what she wants. Anyway, the partner is blind to these machinations and would never believe it… as it happened to me.

          4. Violetta says:

            Send him one of HG’s books anonymously in the mail?

          5. AnneB says:

            Violetta, No point at all to that and just serves to keep me tied. If I were N free at some future point and felt like some cold salad revenge that would probably not do much, if anything, to achieve that either. I like the idea of sending him some anonymous man nappy samples though (as if all guys of his age group should expect that at some point). If I ever do decide to take revenge, that will be on the list.

          6. AnneB says:

            Violetta, Ignore previous comment, I thought you were addressing me. I see now that it is part of the convo you are having with Corvino (I was commenting on wordpress which specifies names when when replying).

          7. Violetta says:

            AnneB: no prob, but instead of nappies, why don’t you send him some condoms? Size Extra Small

        2. AnneB says:

          Corvino, congratulations! Get out and stay out is the only way.

    2. AnneB says:

      Corvino, she lied to you for her own benefit. When she lied to you about going to Italy alone, she did that because it suited her purposes to do so in that moment. Later, when you caught her in the lie she basically manipulated you by using a blame-shift. She avoided accountability. So instead of saying, yes I lied to you, she blame-shifted and made *you* the reason for her lying. In doing this she also protects the facade she probably presents to other people. By saying/implying that she lied only for your benfit she maintains the ‘I am a good, sensitive person’ facade. Everything that she does and says is self serving. You are not accountable for her lies.

      1. Corvino says:

        Thank you AnneB, you’re absolutely right in your comments. It is exactly as you said. And this is only one example among hundreds. Always following the same pattern: I lie, but its is your fault. I think they are totally naive thinking that if there’s a beneficial reason (for them), then is not a lie. And thats why they dont’ feel guilty and keep doing the same.

        1. AnneB says:

          Corvino, they know it is a lie or a deception on one level, but it is justfied by the instinctive need to retain control of the situation in the present moment.

        2. SMH says:

          AnneB and Corvino, Totally spot on. Mine denied that he was cheating on IPPS WITH ME, as if I was not there so how could I know??! And anyway, she never asked so he never had to SAY he had lied, and anyway, it was best that she not know, and anyway from here on out he would be the best person that he could be (was he back to me six months later, once he felt he had IPPS where he wanted her, you betcha!)

  20. FeelingFree says:

    Isn’t it a lie every time he says “I love you”?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If said by a narcissist, yes. It is a benign form of manipulation.

      1. ANM says:

        Do narcissist know that they are using love as a manipulation? I feel like even in the Golden Period, Narcissist are awkward with saying I love you, even if they are infatuated. It’s almost like they know they don’t really love THE PERSON.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Greaters do, the rest do not.
          Many narcissists are not awkward at all about such declarations. Any awkwardness you have witnessed in the narcissist is the manifestation of problems “fitting in” and struggling to keep their dislike of intimacy under wraps. Remember that manifestation and struggle are unconscious.

  21. Kathleen says:

    One of the first simple lies was a time I walked in and caught the narcissist looking at my telephone (i think texts) which I’d left open in the kitchen.

    I didn’t say anything Straight away-because I didn’t want to embarrass or be confrontational..I had nothing to hide in my phone.
    But I did bring it up later that evening.
    I said you know in a way it’s flattering that you were looking at my phone because to me it signals You must be concerned if maybe I’m lying to you about something or I’m not loyal to you. Os there something that you’re worried about ?
    I was met with “I wasn’t looking at your phone”

    We both know it had happened because the narcissist turned and looked at me when I walked in the room and put the phone down in a rather hurried manner.
    Another red flag-Which I chalked up to insecurity or embarrassment. But it was to me a bit disappointing that the narc didn’t say-yeah I worry that you are XYNZ ..Or that you’re still interested and so and so. It was all about saying- It didn’t happen. So what do you say after that?? I’m not gonna argue like I’m in kindergarten. So I just puzzled on it… And probably told a friend who said… Yeah that’s weird. And on we went -Jesus-If only it that early point I had walked off. What a waste of time.

    1. E. B. says:

      Hello Kathleen,

      Happy New Year! I understand your point of view about not having anything to hide. In this case, I think this is about something else.

      Your phone (it could be a letter, a postcard, a document, a screen) lying open on the table does not give your partner, your friend, your family or anyone the right to pick it up and read it, unless you told them to do so.
      If someone does any of the above is a sign they do not respect your boundaries and have a sense of entitlement.
      You saw them looking at your phone and confronted with it. They used Denial. Lying, no accountability.
      Your partner being concerned that you might be lying or cheating and going through your private belongings without asking is not flattering. It is sign that they do not trust you. I see this as the biggest red flag because relationships are built on trust.
      Narcissists do not trust anybody, no matter how much evidence you give them that you can be trusted.

      I ended a friendship because they lied to me and betrayed my trust. I asked them if they did it. I did it only once and in a neutral way. They used Deflection. I replied ‘Thank you for the answer’ and went NC. No more questions, no arguments, no more energy, no more time wasted. I was dealing with an adult – not a child. I had enough red flags. I cannot trust this individual. I do not care if they are a narcissist or narcissistic. No trust, no relationship.
      From their perspective, they have not done anything wrong, though. They feel entitled to do what they want.

      1. Kathleen says:

        Happy New Year to you too EB- thank you for your response. Now that I read your reply I see even more wrong with what I was already doing/thinking/ignoring in my narc entanglement . I did use the term “flattered” but It may be the wrong word really… However I have to admit by self esteem and self-respect was already compromised. More accurately it shows how i was working in an environment of “I have no idea where I stand with this person” . so the fact that they were interested In me ? enough to look into my private phone -well sadly I found that that was “hope for the future“. Because someone who doesn’t give a damn about you wouldn’t go rifling through your stuff…would they? That’s what I was thinking. I guess still makes me curious what they would be looking for like if I was texting my ex or something like that? I don’t now.

        It’s embarrassing to say now. To see just how totally messed up it was.
        You are correct it is not flattering to have someone invading your privacy/ looking at your personal stuff… It’s an unhealthy sign/a major red flag.

        1. E. B. says:

          Thank you for your wishes!
          When I was in contact with narcissists on a daily basis, I could not see things clearly. It was not possible. Like you, I used to find excuses. I remember getting used to some of their abusive behaviours believing it was normal or not that bad. I had to bury some of my feelings in order to put up with them. I cannot do that anymore.

          Someone who does not care about you but wants to harm you, sabotage your plans or your work will be interested in having as much information as possible. When you enter devaluation, they will have enough material to twist, exaggerate facts and build lies based on a grain of truth. They will use it to gain negative fuel from you and to smear you to others. My narc in-laws did that to me when I was in contact with them. They wanted to know *everything*. They made up stories based on innocuous facts. I was lucky my husband had warned me about his narc mother and sisters and told me to keep important documents and personal items safe.

          A partner, friend, colleague at work, family member who cares about you, values your privacy and respects you will not be intrusive. They will not be interested in knowing what you text people from your social circle. It is none of their business. Most important, they trust you. If they want to see something, they will ask your permission first.

  22. Misti M casinger says:

    I always told him that he couldnt be accountable and that there was a way out. He could jump from ship to ship and never be “caught” (my exact words) only 2 times I had evidence of things. In those times I would get “I dont remember doing that” or apologies that he broke my trust. He would really seem to be sorry. So I have a question… if he doesnt realize he is lying… does he know he is manipulating? The book of yours was eery.. many things I told him, I didnt even know where actual tactics.

  23. Esther says:

    Telling lies and believing it to be the truth.. isn’t it self deception?

  24. BL says:

    And completely unnecessary lies as well. This was my strangest; narc and I were texting to meet up:
    Him: I just have to secure a car
    Me: do you want me to pick you up?
    He never responded, but showed up in a car the next day
    Me: whose car is this?
    Him: mine
    Me: I thought you had to “secure a car”
    He looked like he didn’t know what I was talking about, and such an awkward silence followed that I changed the subject because I was sure I must have misread the message. There were plenty more lies, but this one stood out for its oddity! Unless he was setting up the possibility of not showing.

  25. Tammy says:

    Here’s a situation where I caught my ex N in a lie. I had asked him to come over and hang out one evening and he said he needed to take his daughter to dance class because her mother was unable to that night, and just planned on staying and watching her and then driving her back to her mother’s house, but said we would see each other the next night. This excuse to not see me struck me as odd as he had never watched her at class before, and I knew his daughter being a teenager would not want him watching her, and I was already catching him in many lies by this point so I decided to catch him in this lie. I had my son take me to the dance studio (so he wouldn’t recognize the vehicle, plus it had tinted windows so he couldn’t see me) where he was expected to be taking his daughter. I knew what time the class started so we got there prior and parked in an inconspicuous area and waited. He showed up when expected, I watched his daughter get out of the car and go into the dance studio alone, as he proceeded to exit the parking lot I could see a woman in his car. I called him immediately and it went directly to voicemail. I didn’t leave a message or lead on that I knew anything yet. My son and I left after that and I came back alone in my car to wait for him to return to pick her up. I planned to confront him at that point. I parked in front of the dance studio and watched his daughter come out and get in her mother’s car. I called him again and again it went to voicemail. I began texting him asking him why he wasn’t answering his phone and was everything all right. He called me back and said he was sorry he didn’t pick up the phone but he was just now picking up his daughter and could he call me later. I said you’re not picking up your daughter I’m sitting in front of the dance studio and I just watched her get in her mother’s car. I also told him I seen him drop her off with the other woman in his car and at this point he knew he had been caught. He changed his story now and tried to tell me he was with his ex-wife, which is his daughter’s mother and they were going to buy makeup for the daughter at the mall. I told him I seen who was in his car and it was not his ex-wife and he proceeded to tell me I was delusional. And then proceeded to tell me if I wasn’t so crazy he wouldn’t have to lie to me. He did all of the lines of defense pretty much, denial, word salad, gas lighting, blaming shifting etc. The thing I found so interesting, in hindsight, is that had I not suspected he was initially lying, his explanation as to why he hadn’t responded to my calls would have seemed logical. He said he turned off the phone while in the studio. He couldn’t have sounded more convincing. I actually let him tell me about the class and how it went before letting him know I was at the studio. Man was he convincing. Even going as far as pretending to talk to the daughter after she supposedly just got in his vehicle. What an asshole. That was just one of many lies. Hundreds actually.

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