Brilliance, Baloney or Bullshit?



FR David once declared, “Words don’t come easy to me.”

He must not have belonged to Narc Club because we love words and using them. Why is that? They are so easy to use and so powerful. We use words to charm, to seduce, to astound, to amuse, to arouse, to hurt, to wound, to put down, to terrify, to lash out, to apologise, to correct, to mollify, to appease and to hoover.

We actually only use them for one thing.

To control.

Words are far more attractive than action. This is because words form on our lips in an instant, they tap into your empathic and narcissistic traits so readily to ensure we wrap our controlling tendrils about you. Words enable control. Words garner fuel. Words cost nothing. Words vanish into the ether. Words can be denied. Words can be twisted. Words can be fabricated. Words can be lost. Words can be found.

Words come very easy to us.

What comes from our mouths is a product of our narcissism, refined of course by our school. Face a Lesser Narcissist and you can expect direct comments, wild boasts, raged-filled tirades and mammoth exaggerations. Those words issued by the Lesser will not be winning any Booker Prizes, but they remain effective. They are effective because they cost the lazy lesser nothing to use and they enable him to achieve control.

Should the words come pouring from a Mid Range Narcissist, these range from Long Involved Explanations, grandiose prose feigning some Romantic poet, mealy-mouthed apologies, angst-ridden pity plays, sobbing symphonies seeking sympathy and pompous posturing by the fireplace of arrogance. Mid Rangers can be accomplished wordsmiths, doling out some delicious word salads, getting you on the merry go round of Circular Conversations and making frequent use of plausible deniability, with the “I did not quite say that,” or “you have not remembered what I said correct” or “I would explain again but it is quite clear you do not understand what I mean.”

When the Greater lets the serpent´s tongue emerge, instinct largely slips away and if you are the rare victim of the Greater you will find yourself on the receiving end of the calculated, probing, forensic comments where each word has been carefully considered to ensure maximum impact. Nothing is wasted, every word counts and the savage sentences see your throat ripped out as we still stand smiling at you and you slowly start to realise that you died five seconds ago but your brain is just catching up.

Of course all three schools use words in the context of the Narcissist´s Conditional Asterisk and all three schools will use words purely to control because not only are they so much less effort to use, they also provide a fantastic return for the minimum expenditure of effort and that ratio of effort as against return is central to our behaviours.

Sometimes we exhibit brilliance in our words. Often our kind demonstrate baloney although you may take some time to ascertain that this is what has just been spouted. Similarly often there is just pure bullshit spouted by the narcissist. Again, you may be slow to have realised this, your emotional thinking clouding your application of logic. Occasionally you know that this stinking pile of excrement is being dumped on you but you fail to get out of the way, you emotional thinking addled-mind struggling under the steaming load that has been deposited your way. Invariably, it is only afterwards, with the cleansing effect of Logical Thinking that you will clear away the dung and see the comment for what it was, leaving you incredulous, shaking your head and your gast flabbered.

Our kind come out with choice examples of utter bollocks, but of course, from the uttering narcissist it is deemed to be entirely apt for the purposes of asserting control and the clouding effect of emotional thinking ensures that the comment gets the narcissist over the finishing line of control.

On this occasion we are focusing on the bullshit and the floor is open to you to provide us with the golden turds that your narcissist said, wrote or carved into a tree near your house. Let’s have those one or two lines which contained a choice example and feel free to expand on how you felt and how you reacted to it.

The floor is yours, just watch where you tread……

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81 thoughts on “Brilliance, Baloney or Bullshit?

  1. narcsurvivor030414 says:

    There is so many things to choose from…..I was an IPSS so it was “I don’t ever want to lose our friendship”. I can now see through his bullshit, but years ago I could not so when he would ignore me it hurt so I would confront him and it was always an excuse….”I am not ignoring you”, ” I am busy so I can’t talk” (yet he would walk to the other side of the room and talk with this one girl for 30 minutes at her desk about what is going on in his life (but he was soooo busy). One time I brought that up to him and he gave me a look and said ” I am not getting into this with you right now” and walked away. The best was when he would purposely walk around the other way to avoid walking by my desk and then the next day would stop by my desk to chat and would leave me my favorite piece of candy. (almost like a peace offering). I can remember him telling me that his previous wife stated to him that when they would argue that she wished he would just hit her because he hurts people with his words. I was stunned by that. Luckily thank god for HG’s post because I can see the tactics he would use on me and it is so much clearer now.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good to read.

  2. Eternity says:

    HG, can a midranger also be a bully at times. I find that he triangulates me in front of people.
    E.G. If i tell him that you dont like a certain person , he will then tell me why I don’t like a another certain person. He will switch it around become rude to me and then tell me to f off In front of people. Why does he do this because his fury get ignited. He knows we are done with this relationship and seems to agree. Can we both agree to not be with one another and move on with our lives?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A Lower Mid Ranger may do this as their facade flickers on and off.

      1. Eternity says:

        Thank you HG, so they tend to have some lesser behaviours then?

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. Eternity says:

            Thank you HG, you are so so so right , they can go either way .
            From The Incredible Sulk, to The Incredible Hulk.

          2. HG Tudor says:


        2. MommyPino says:

          My youngest stepdaughter was diagnosed with bipolar because of that kind of behavior but I think it’s a misdiagnosis and she’s actually a LMR. There’s a famous celebrity that HG included in his 20 famous narcissists that is also misdiagnosed as bipolar. They say he is bipolar that’s why he behaves that way and narcissism is not even brought up.

          But just to be clear I am not saying that a bipolar is automatically a narcissist. I think that they are two different things but unfortunately some narcissists get misdiagnosed as bipolar. Bipolar people have empathy while narcissists do not.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Fair observations

          2. mommypino says:

            Thank you HG.

          3. Eternity says:

            Hi Mommypino,
            I totally understand your point. I thought the same as I kept seeing these strange behaviours. One day sweet as pie and the other day silent treatment etc . Wondering what the heck I did wrong. It was all him and still it is him as he wont change.
            One day he lashing out at me because I told him how I felt about a certain person and fricking bit my head off
            Mommypino you know what they say.
            Hit The Road Jack and dont you come back no more .

  3. Leigh says:

    One time I heard, “I’ve got your back, 100% always.” I nearly fell off my chair, I laughed so hard. I said, “Don’t make me laugh” His response was, “I don’t care what you tell people, I always have your back” I then responded, “I’m not going to tell anyone. I just think it’s comical that you said that.”

    He doesn’t actually have my back, he just wanted to make sure I didn’t crack the façade.

    I call Bullshit!

  4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    The same could be said about Russia right now
    I think, ‘it’s a whole lotta Sputnik V’ 💉
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  5. Kiki says:


    Just a question
    Is Bill Gates a narc .

    Had a convo about him the other day , he has a lot of haters , and an equal amount of admirers.

    My instinct says No he is not but I’m unsure


    1. HG Tudor says:


      Please see or

    2. Kiki says:

      Thanks HG

      I need to consult about my work situation before I face it soon .Several very clever horrible narcs there that spike my ET just thinking about it.

      Which would be better for me the dealing with workplace narc , or an audio consult with you
      I wish I could do both but need to pick one .


      1. HG Tudor says:

        If you have to choose, then audio consultation.

  6. blackcoffee30 says:

    I have some words:

    / \

    / \

  7. MB says:

    “A friend of mine died. I’m at the wake.” This excuse used at least twice. Very effective for making an empath stop contacting you. (the first time it’s used 🙄) It works on so many of our traits all at the same time.

    1. blackcoffee30 says:

      People were just dropping like flies. Every time I made an escape, I was suddenly “needed” because so and so had died. I always thought it odd that the anniversaries of the deaths passed as if nothing had happened. Odd that.

      1. MB says:

        BC30, I’m glad to no longer be affiliated. Who knows? I might be “dead” by now!

        1. blackcoffee30 says:


  8. December Infinity says:

    ‘We are just friends I have nothing to hide what I can’t have friends’?

    ‘I was never on it was someone else using my information for an account’

    ‘It wasn’t me’

    ‘I don’t remember that’

    ‘We need to work on our relationship’

    ‘I love you and I don’t want to lose you’

    ‘I am a nice guy’

    ‘I will you pay you back all the money I owe you’

  9. Whitney says:

    Dear HG, he didn’t tell outrageous lies. But my friend said he was fake, an actor, that he deceived me. That hurts me so I’m in denial. I don’t want to believe her.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      I think the deception is the thing that hurts me the most. I still don’t want to believe it in many ways. It can’t be true. That he so ably manipulated me into believing everything he said and conned me into taking his word for it. One of the reasons is because I could never get on the same page as him. Those old empathic traits that HG keeps talking about – honesty, decency, etc. We would never do what they have done, so it’s hard to believe anyone else could either. It takes us to suspend our own empathic thinking to really try to understand and get inside the head of a narcissist. That’s what being here is all about in some ways, and it does take a while for it to sink in. So, take you time, Whitney, and don’t expect it to happen all at once. I find myself going around in circles sometimes, too. Having to suspend my disbelief that someone could do that to me. But he did.

      1. Whitney says:

        Oh thank you Lickemtomorrow 💜 what kind of Empath are you?

        I find the character acting unbelievable. Playing a role. Mirroring my interests. Mimicking my emotions. His eyes. They looked like he loved me. I can’t believe my friend. He didn’t tell lies but he acted, she said. She said everyone could see he’s fake, except me.

        I only act how I feel. It’s hard for us to believe, I agree.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Hi Whitney, I think it must be harder when it’s someone else telling you and you haven’t come to the conclusion yourself. Doesn’t sound like you had the opportunity to see through the facade, although his actions now must be an indication that’s all it was. Guessing your friend is trying to support you through that. Good to know you have someone on your side.

          HG has classed me as School: co-dependent, with an associated high degree of superempath; Cadre: showing almost equal amounts of magnet and saviour (with a little martyr thrown in for good measure!); Empathic traits are almost all equal with ‘justice’ and ‘truthseeker’ being the front runners by a couple of percent, and I’m a divil for ‘pride’ on my narcissistic traits!

          Have you done the Empath detector yet, Whitney? I thought it was well worth it just to know a little more about myself and focus on me instead of the narc for a change 🙂

          1. Whitney says:

            Hi Lickemtorromow,
            Thank you for sharing your awesome results!!!
            Those are really cool results. Co-dependent and high amount of Super Empath.
            Magnet and Saviour!
            Oh and those are nice traits also.

            Do you relate to the results?
            Have you had much involvement with Narcs in your life?

            Mine is Geyser mostly. Then about equal Carrier, Magnet, and Saviour.
            Codependent and strongly Contagion.
            And Love devotee is my biggest Empathic trait. My biggest Narcissistic trait is Defiance. I am very defiant. Like for example I can’t have a job, I just quit straight away. I run a business instead. I need to live life how I want. I believe I can do whatever I want.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Whitney, your results are awesome and I see we have some things in common 🙂

            Two of them being Magnet and Saviour … and every time I hear Geyser I think of an absolute burst of empathy which is wonderful.

            I was not happy when HG reported back that I was co-dependent. It was the last thing I imagined or wanted. I certainly don’t feel like I depend on anyone else (which is true for the most part), but I am beginning to understand it now in a different light. I’m beginning to understand that I was born as well as bred to be/become what I am. It gives me a great sense of relief to know that, and what its origin might be. That I was designed to partner with a narcissist from the very beginning. It also gives me the ability to confront it as a means of avoiding narcissists who would be drawn to me (and vice versa).

            My mother is a narcissist and from what I understand now most likely my father was one, too. I was married for 5 years to a narcissist (involved with him for 7 years or so) and my latest acquisition was also a narcissist (involved for 2.5 years).

            Basically they’ve been coming out of the woodwork in my life! Here I concentrate on the last and the first because the middle I’d just rather forget. That was a lot of time and a lot more reality to deal with which thankfully I’ve been able to move on from for the most part. At least I thought so until the last narc snagged me.

            I’m working on it …

          3. Whitney says:

            Hey Lickemtomorrow
            I really enjoyed reading your message xx

            You will definitely keep away from narcissists, since you are working on it. You definitely can do it. Especially since you are free of them… now? That’s a big achievement.

            What type of Narcissists have you been involved with, do you know? It’s interesting how HG states the type of Narcissists who will target you! On the Empath Detector.

            I wasn’t happy when HG said co-dependent either. I like to think I’m a Contagion Empath with co-dependent traits. I only cry about other people or animals, not myself. I think that means I’m the contagion type. I was crying twice today. First about the existence of mouse and rat traps (sorry if that upsets you) and second from watching “cuddle your baby while they’re watching tv TikTok compilation”. I highly recommend watching that!

            I LOVE narcissist men though. Upper Mid range or higher. I Love being around them. I like to give them control. But, I feel confident and calm inside myself and I’m good at making decisions.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey Whitney,

            Thanks for your kind words x

            I am free of narcs for now, and it’s been 4 months since my last contact with the last. He hasn’t tried to hoover me and I doubt he will. But, as we know, never say never!

            I appear to be a target for mid range narcissists, and put both my mother and ‘lover’ in the same category. The marriage is a whole other story which between my mother and him was a case of jumping from the frying pan into the fire and back into the frying pan again! It’s a very painful part of my history because I was caught between a rock and a hard place. I, of course, had no knowledge of narcissism then and just had deal with it as best I could. Leaving was the obvious course of action.

            Maybe that’s why being ensnared again is so painful for me. I waited so long and worked so hard to get my ducks in a row and I still couldn’t get it right (not knowing what narcissism was). And, of course, I didn’t know I was an empath, and on top of that a co-dependent. So we seem to share that in common. It’s easy for us to get caught and the attraction is definitely there. It’s built into us, I think.

            No worries about the mouse traps … I see you are a contagion going by what you said 🙂 I wouldn’t like a visual of that as it would upset me, too. And I’d likely be rushing in to save the poor little critter. I remember once as a child crying because my father trapped some kind of insect in a jar. Not even sure what it was now, but I remember being really upset at it being trapped so he could show us. This place is bringing up lots of memories for me …

            The TikTok compilation also sounds like a real tear jerker … I’d be a sucker for that one as well. Tears come easily to me whether it’s the happy or sad kind. I’m very connected that way.

            Glad your feeling confident and calm and are good at making decisions. I’d say being here and getting the information you need has helped with that. I’m yet to be tested on some aspects of the decision making, but I do feel less distress for the most part around what the most recent narcissist in my life did to me. Because now I can make sense of it and that takes some of the emotion out of it.

            Hopefully we can both stay on the straight and narrow. Keep taking back control x

  10. Michelle Hall says:

    I don’t post anything on facebook so there’s no need for us to be friends….. I don’t watch porn, it’s my friend who sends it so me, so I accidently sent it to you during a fight…… I thought you weren’t really interested in this relationship….. That purple woman’s shirt you found in the wash which none of my children recognised and neither did you… is mine, it’s skintight on me, I wear it under my work shirt in winter, I’ve had it for 8 years.

    1. truthseeker6157 says:


      The purple shirt comment is a true classic. You should have offered him your stockings and suspenders to wear under his suit trousers during winter too!

      I’m assuming you are English not American. For US readers I refer to the suspenders that clip on to ladies’ stockings. Not the suspenders (braces) that men wear to hold up their trousers. Ha ha.

      1. Violetta says:

        He chops down trees
        He wears high heels
        Suspenders and a bra
        He wants to be a girlie
        Just like his dear Papa

        – Monty Python, “The Lumberjack Song”

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          You crack me up. You have the anthem for everything ! 😂

          1. Violetta says:

            The way HG experiences music is one of the things that puzzle me extremely. He doesn’t get emotional flashbacks, although he uses many musical references. For me, certain songs are like Pavlovian bells. If I hear “The Safety Dance,” I am instantly back in that department store changing room, trying on that white tee with black polka dots with the attached black tank with white polka dots over it, and agreeing with my mother, “This is SO CUTE.”

            I can’t distinctly remember the many times I wore it, but play Men Without Hats, and I remember or rather relive every detail of the time we bought it.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I wonder if this has anything to do with cadre of empath. Do you have a strong Contagion element?

          Music effects me hugely too. It can change my mood dramatically in an instant. Far more than visuals although I’m not great with those either. HG suggests in one of the Knowledge Vault packages that empaths are drawn to narcissists because they enable us to flex our empathic muscle. I agree. Similarly, I don’t do small talk, not really. I too seek emotional content, not in a fuel sense, it doesn’t make me feel powerful, but I do need a higher than normal level of emotional content from my interactions. I find that if I haven’t had this kind of interaction that I will turn to music to supplement. I’m a chirpy person, optimistic, outgoing, happy. My musical taste is the opposite. It’s melancholic, every song choice resonates for a reason and like you, it will take me back to a time and place where I relive that experience in the finest detail. I use music, to dip down, on purpose sometimes, to feel something if the day has been mundane. I imagine the itch for emotion being similar to the itch for fuel, just with a different end result. I am not interested in feeling powerful.

          Something strange as an example. I was listening and adding to my playlist one night. The narc was giving me a silent treatment for no apparent reason. It had been a week or so since he answered. He read, just didn’t respond. The app suggested a song for me given my recent choices. I played it, didn’t recognise the song or artist. As the song played and I listened, the lyrics resonated so much of my narc, carried so much emotion that I smelt him in the room. He wasn’t there, was miles away, but I could feel him and I could smell him, as if he had walked in and sat down next to me. This presence of him lasted around 10 minutes, a touch longer maybe.

          I messaged him as the track played for the third time on loop. Told him what had just happened ( he was my best friend). He answered instantly. Silent treatment broken, as if nothing had happened.

          I have played the same song since. It cannot be conjured. No presence no smell. I think I might need to be caught unawares, not ‘trying’ if you like, like the first time. Music has brought this reaction out in me on two separate occasions, I have also felt and smelt my grandma. Both occasions by chance not design.

          I think certain people can have a huge reaction to music. I don’t think it’s a particular type of music, I think subconsciously we form a link between what we hear and a person. When our minds are clear of clutter I think we just home in on it, remember, feel. It’s one of the nice and sometimes not so nice sides of being an empath.

          1. Violetta says:

            Your experience reminds me of Lisa Loeb’s song “Do You Sleep?”

            My recovery from one bout of narcphilia involved the gradual transition of mindset from “Do You Sleep?” to Loeb’s “I Do.”

            Haven’t done the edt yet, but I’m not sure I’m an empath anyhow. I have enough empathic traits to keep me from being a full narc, but more Narcissistic traits than would allow me to be an empath. I’m guessing I’ll turn out to be highly Narcissistic, which I could accept more easily than being told I was Normal. No one’s ever accused ME of being normal!

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Once again I can relate to what you are saying, TS, and am in tune with Violetta as well. Music and memories go together and definitely for me I seem to have a soul tie to music. It speaks to me, for me, about me …

            That was a very unusual experience you had with your narc, so a WOW to that TS. It must have been very intense and certainly matched your mood. No doubt that relief washed over you when he finally made contact, but it took a lot out of you by the sounds of things. They really know how to play us.

            And we really do go all out and put our heart and soul into these relationships, virtually losing them when they come to an end. I know music will inadvertently bring me back in one way or another. It will take me back to the time, the associated memory (good or bad) and the necessary emotion associated with that.

            Right now I’m thinking of a song I saved for one very special occasion, so I better switch off before my ET gets me!

          3. truthseeker6157 says:


            If it’s any consolation I carry all of the narcissistic traits. Every single one ha ha. Now I know I’m not a narcissist, I’m glad they are there. I figure they are there for a reason and probably help to keep me safe. You might be surprised by how narcy you can be whilst still being an empath!

            I listened to “Do you sleep?” I liked it.

          4. truthseeker6157 says:


            Yeah, it was a bit weird I suppose. To say I was missing him a lot would be an understatement. Music for me is more impactful than a film. Though I can bawl my eyes out at a film too, it just doesn’t evoke my own memories for me as music does.

            The narc and I were discussing films one night. He told me that he had never ever cried or felt upset by a film. That it’s not real, just a story, so why should he get upset by it? (another red flag I should have thought about). Anyway, he then went on to suggest I watch ‘Seven Pounds’ with Will Smith. A week or two later I did watch it. It was the saddest film I have ever seen. I started crying roughly 30 mins in and cried all the way to the end. The sadness stayed with me for days after. I kept thinking about it.

            Did he do it on purpose? Accidental? No idea. Can’t see the gain if we weren’t watching it together and HG writes that witnessing his IPPS cry at a film is wasted fuel.
            As an aside, I play an online game. I have a team of players, 49 guys and me. They are lovely, funny, normal, just a bunch of regular guys. I mentioned I had watched Seven Pounds and one answered, “Who the hell told you to watch that? That film is brutal.” I’ve often wondered what the narc’s thinking was there.

  11. lickemtomorrow says:

    “I never lied to you” LMFAO

    “I’ve never played games with you” Charades, anyone?

    “I don’t even know her. I just answered a question she asked and I can’t even remember what it was about” Yeah, right.

    Every one of these got him over the finishing line. I’m still trying to remove the stink.

  12. Truthseeker6157 says:

    Explaining the reason why he left.

    “ Because you deserve better.”

    Ironic. Probably the only true thing he ever said.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      That is ironic, but the beauty is now you know it’s true.

      1. truthseeker6157 says:

        Thanks Lickemtomorrow x. That relationship is the first I’ve had where I look back and have to consider that I did in fact deserve better.

        I have wondered at times, whether he did actually believe that comment when he said it. It certainly would tie in with the “putting others first” theme which I know he believed and which remained consistent throughout. It was also the best way to get back in and resume things though. So it could have come from him and what he believed himself to be, or, it could have come from the narcissism, “This will pull her back in and give fuel”. Maybe it came from both. I find Mid Rangers difficult in this respect. If he had been a Greater I would say, “Yes, just a manipulation for Prime Aims” He knows what he is doing, doesn’t believe his own hype at all. A Lesser wouldn’t come out with that comment in the first place. Mid Range though think they are one thing but are another. So their comments, for me at least, are tougher to work out and they have to be more difficult to ‘read’.

        As people readers, we can tell when someone lies. We can FEEL the character of a person. If however, the person truly believes themselves to be good, truly believes that they always put people first, would we pick up on the fact that they are something other than who they claim to be? If this is what we sense from them when we reach, is this part of the reason that we stay so long? Our senses conclude ‘genuine’. Mid Rangers aren’t fabricating or acting, they believe they are this person. They become the role. It’s different to someone consciously lying or faking and it will read differently from our side.

        For me, it’s this that makes Mid Rangers so dangerous. I get that once an empath is ensnared by a Greater then she is in a far worse position due to the range and intensity of the manipulations used against her. I do feel that in the early stages though, this self belief of the Mid Ranger that he is a truly ‘good’ person will actually make him far more difficult to read and therefore to spot.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Plus it is very rare for you to be involved with Greaters, thus the danger comes mainly from Lesser and Mid-Range.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you so much for taking the time to put that response together. I really appreciate it.

            The sense that you have at the start, that in your heart of hearts you know is right, the one that you amend, so as not to offend, I think needs to be listened to. That sense is there for a reason and I trust mine. I’m a warm person, I am honestly. I have no issue ruling out though and I do that from the start. If something isn’t right, something isn’t right, rule out and move on, don’t second guess or amend. I love people, people really are the point of it all for me. I can’t get by my instinct though if there is something that feels wrong. We are stronger than we think, we just don’t trust our instincts often enough, too easily swayed. Now I am more comfortable with the idea of being an empath and what that means, I won’t be questioning my instincts at all going forward. I won’t be disregarding the red flags. That’s over.

            I like the point you make about the narcissism stepping in to avoid accountability as opposed to truly believing a lie is truth. That would read differently, a distinguishing factor. It suggests you could spot that and early on. My narc lied in the first meet. He ‘felt’ confident rather than genuine I think, held eye contact too long and leant forward. I read ‘lie’ but I didn’t read ‘fabrication’, that might be why. Hard to describe, a lack of the usual creativity within his statement.

            I understand what you mean about red flags and discrepancies and through understanding more we should pay more attention to these as and when we see them. There is no doubt we are forewarned and forearmed thanks to the material we read here.

            I really like your explanation of how different people are treated differently in the fuel matrix and how this manifests. That helps my understanding, thank you!

            Looking back over all my relationships, friends, family ( only child non narcissist parents) previous partners, with my additional understanding from this site I have to conclude, I have had one and only one narcissistic entanglement. Primarily online. I have suspected one other partner and one friend. All things considered I think they were the narcissistic end of normal. Online played to my weaknesses and not my strengths. Online is out for me going forward.

            I really don’t want to be stung again, this has taken too much out of me for far too long and my questions are an attempt to ensure I don’t repeat the same mistake. Establishing what was different with the Mid Ranger is my attempt to make sure there is no second time for me or anyone else. We’ve had enough.

            Thank you again MommyPino. I am pretty green when it comes to having narcissists around me long term. Your views have helped my understanding through real life examples x

          2. mommypino says:

            You’re most welcome Truthseeker.

            I just want to add that you’re right that narcissists are pathological liars and their lies doesn’t just happen to avoid accountability. A lot of times their lies may even have no rhyme or reason and they seem to believe their lies. Rewriting history is one of their things. That was a great observation you had about the confidence in lying and it is so true. Unfortunately for the most part we really have to wait to get to know the person better and see if the stories connect with their other stories and our observations on how they behave to figure out the lies. Online puts us in so much disadvantage in getting to know the person. It is such an ideal place for a narcissist to reinvent who they are into whatever kind of person they want to be. They are fully confident in lying because they have no guilt or accountability and they only see you as an object so they have no messy emotions inside to make them less than confident when they lie.

            Thank you for your advice. I am definitely working on that but it is still a struggle. I am a Geyser so my excitement when I meet a new person tends to drown out logic at least in the first few encounters with that person. I also noticed that with my narc entanglements the narcissists were the ones who took charge of connecting with me and moving our dynamic forward and I just went along with the program. It is something that I have to watch out for. I was raised by a N single mom and for many years of my childhood I was not allowed to leave our small apartment to play with other kids (although I got to play with my cousins when we visited my grandma). It seems to have permanently planted some type of loneliness in me although not enough to affect my happiness at all. But it always makes me so excited to meet new people like it feels like I’m meeting new play mates. It sounds weird writing it but I feel that it has something to do although I’m not the kind of person who is stuck in my past. I am perfectly happy with my present but I think my past still has something to do with how I turned out and of course my genetics as my DNA test also say I’m an extrovert.

            You are so lucky that you only got one entanglement. But one entanglement is already too much. I agree it takes away so much time of our precious lives from us to recover from each one as these entanglements are so damaging in many ways. Avoiding online will really make a huge dent in your likelihood to get entangled again. It sounds like you have a good natural abilities to not get sucked in a narcissistic dynamic but the online have put you in a big disadvantage.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Do understand that most narcissists do not, in the instant, view it as a lie owing to the narcissistic perspective

          4. mommypino says:

            Thank you HG. It is hard to understand. So they actually really believe it? Wow.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            That’s what I wrote.

          6. mommypino says:

            Sorry HG, I will admit I didn’t read the article this time as I have already read this article previously. I just we straight to the comments section. I should have read the article before commenting.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            No, I meant that’s what I wrote in my comment to you MP and you asked me the question again, even though I’d just explained it.

          8. mommypino says:

            Got it HG. Thanks for the explanation. I was just surprised that they actually believe it. It just took me a little time before it sunk in. It’s hard to understand how they could really believe some of their fantasies. I apologize for the redundant question.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            No need to apologise

          10. NarcAngel says:

            That was a good point you made about having been isolated in childhood that has led you to be eager to meet/share with others. I’m sure it will resonate with others and might help them to see one of the many reasons we can become susceptible to narc interaction later on.

          11. mommypino says:

            Thank you NA.

          12. Tracy says:

            How can you tell which they are? I am new to your info. Mine had me fool for almost two decades. I figured out he was a liar and manipulator but not to the extent I know now. I kicked him out after 17.5 years of marriage. He hoovered and was apart of my my life for 5 more years. I think the last year was the setup for discard and total destruction of me. It was only when the discard happened that I research everything from our past and any avenues I could I got answers. And by the way I am still standing but I have a long fight with him over our daughter. So again how do you know where they fall?

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Do you mean how do I know if they are a narcissist or not or how do I know which school and cadre of narcissist they are?

          14. truthseeker6157 says:


            Your excitement to meet new people does not sound weird to me at all. Not in the slightest. I think it’s lovely to be so open hearted. Maybe just try to keep your guard up a little longer that’s all. Let them tell you before you give of yourself and confide. Sad we have to amend in this way, but if that small amend gives us the time needed to assess accurately, then it might just safeguard against heartache in future x

        2. MommyPino says:

          Hi truthseeker,

          “ Our senses conclude ‘genuine’. Mid Rangers aren’t fabricating or acting, they believe they are this person. They become the role. ”

          I have lived with a Mid Ranger not as an IPPS but as a sister and in my opinion they do not ‘become the role’. Yes I will admit that it takes me some time to get to know the person first before I can connect all of the red flags together. But once I get to know the person well enough, it is so easy to spot the difference between a real empathic person and a MR. It does help to slow things down and let these things unravel on its own. Loan them small items and see if you will get it back. Observe them if they tell you secrets that other people entrusted in them. Observe them if their faces show delight in telling you stories that make fun and humiliate other people that didn’t do anything bad to them. Observe them if they follow through on the things that they told you they would do. Observe them if they triangulate you against a person they know have hurt you. Observe them if they keep telling you stories of how so many people in their lives have ‘failed’ them in spite of their love and kindness for them. These are the things that a Mid Ranger cannot fake for a long time. Narcissists have a pathological grandiosity, envy and entitlement and because these things are pathological, they will eventually manifest no matter how they try to hide it.

          1. truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey mommyPino,

            Thank you for your comment. I have never lived with a narc so I have never witnessed these behaviours directly. I can understand that the behaviours that you describe are red flags, learning to spot them and react rather than disregard them being crucial in avoiding ensnarement.

            I’m meaning more at the start. When you get a sense of a person, before the devaluation takes place, when they hook you or ‘bind’ as HG would say. HG as an Ultra binds through calculation. He has a routine and infiltrates all five senses. He knows the things to do to get under your skin and create ever presence for example. But the Mid Ranger does this by instinct. He believes in himself as a good person. He doesn’t register a lie even when faced with evidence. He even believes that he loves you. So if you were getting a sense of him earlier on, would you pick up on a facade in the same way? Or, would you sense that this person was genuine?

            Yes there are signs of love bombing that we now know to look for, manipulations we can look for, behaviours and tells. In many cases though the Mid Ranger believes he is justified in taking those actions. He believes that he is the one being mistreated and with the world against him. In his mind, he remains the good guy. Or, in the case of my narc, “I have always put others first.”

            Some telling behaviours and manipulations might not occur if you were on the shelf, a secondary source and always painted white. Certainly in my case, manipulations only became obvious later. What I’m trying to figure out is how the Midranger ‘feels’ or would feel to me. I know how mine felt but I wasn’t with him for long enough. We were mostly online.

            If we want to avoid ensnarement we need to avoid it early so that we have a fighting chance of sidestepping the fog that is ET. Once that kicks in we will disregard what we see regardless and for longer than we should, but is this aided by the fact that what the Mid Ranger says and does feels genuine? Then comes the need to heal and fix and find out why the negative behaviours and manipulations dont match the read we get. Usually we are excellent judges of character and can feel a lie or a fake a mile away. We don’t seem to here with the Mid Ranger. So why don’t we? Is it due to their belief in their own facade?

            Also, will he change depending on relationship? I think probably yes. Siblings have the family bond. Friends and partners are more free to leave. So how does the facade change? He will behave differently in different contexts with different people in order to obtain the Prime Aims. He doesn’t realise this though. In his mind he is still just an all round good guy, undervalued and misunderstood.

            They are different. Different to the calculating Greater who has his play book. Different to the Lesser who has no cognitive awareness. So to me, more dangerous. I’m not sure that I would sense anything was off with the Midranger. I think I would with the other two schools. Maybe I’m missing something.

          2. mommypino says:

            Hi Truthseeker,

            I agree with a lot of what you said. Just a few thoughts I have which may be considered or ignored but I just want to share them.

            “I’m meaning more at the start. When you get a sense of a person, before the devaluation takes place,”

            For me, I do get some sense when someone is a MR even at the start. My problem is my sense of politeness, wanting to be nice and liked, sometimes loneliness and benefit of the doubt hinders me from listening and guilts me for judging too soon and so I continue with the interaction and get to know the person more. Many times (probably almost all if not all but I can’t ascertain for sure) I realize that I should have listened to my early impressions. I say early because my first impression has a tendency to always be good about people. My default impression when I meet someone is excitement and curiosity about this new person and I have a default trust. But after about a week or a month of interactions I start seeing red flags which I ignored before I learned about narcissism.

            “ But the Mid Ranger does this by instinct. He believes in himself as a good person. He doesn’t register a lie even when faced with evidence. He even believes that he loves you. So if you were getting a sense of him earlier on, would you pick up on a facade in the same way? Or, would you sense that this person was genuine?”

            For me personally it is actually one of my biggest red flag when a lie doesn’t register with someone or there is a disconnect with what happened and what that person recollects. In my opinion, and I don’t mind HG correcting me if I’m wrong, a Mid Ranger doesn’t register a lie even in the face of an evidence, not necessarily because they fully believe that it is the truth, but because their narcissism almost automatically prevents them from facing accountability. Their narcissism seems to protect them from accountability. It can be a subtle difference between that and between a sincere person who truly believes that they are good. But that difference is a big red flag indicator. It is a big red flag on ‘when’ these instances of dissonance with reality happens. Does this dissonance happen when they might be facing accountability? I have a tendency to automatically look at someone’s stories that they share with me and my head seems to automatically calculate if things add up. If things do not add up then I start to look at the person telling the stories. Also I ask questions about the thing that doesn’t add up (not in a suspicious tone but more in a curious tone) and a lot of times the explanation makes sense so there is no red flag but sometimes there is deflection or avoidance or their explanation still has many missing parts and includes a lot of blame to others, it is a red flag.

            So personally I tend to pick on that this person has a facade or is disingenuous when I see discrepancies even in the early stages.

            “ the Mid Ranger believes he is justified in taking those actions. He believes that he is the one being mistreated and with the world against him. In his mind, he remains the good guy. Or, in the case of my narc, “I have always put others first.””

            I have noticed as well that they truly believe that they are the good guys and their “villains” are the true villains. But if I see discrepancies that I described earlier then it doesn’t matter to me what they truly believe anymore because it makes me see that they are just unaware of their own faults. Someone believing that they are being mistreated by many people in their lives or that the world is against them is a big red flag in my book.

            Regarding how a Mid Ranger feels to me, I would admit that if I am unguarded and relied on feelings alone, I often enjoy the company of Mid Rangers in the early stage. They are often a lot of fun, humorous and interesting people. They are much more charming than a lot of empaths and normals in general. But now that I have been burned in my life many times by narcissists and I have gotten access to the information HG provides I am more cautious. When I look at a new person that I enjoy the company of I now realize that I don’t really know this person yet and will just not completely trust the person until I have gotten to know him or her more.

            In my opinion narcissists tend to treat people in their fuel matrix differently. But their pathological narcissistic traits always manifest to all of them in one way or another. As a friend of a narcissist you may not be subjected to abuse like an IPPS but you do notice when your friend has no boundaries with her son and tells you a humiliating story about her catching her son masturbate for example and shaming her son about it instead of just looking away (lack of empathy). Or as a friend you may see that you loaned your N friend something and it was never returned to you (entitlement). But you don’t interact with your friend enough to really be subjected to her or his toxicity as much as your friend’s child or IPPS. As a sibling, you may not be subjected to the abuse that the IPPS is subjected to but you know that your sister is full of shit or disingenuous (just for example). You know that your sister changes whenever she changes boyfriends. You know that your sister lies a lot. So different people in their fuel matrix do get some glimpse of them being an N although not in the same exact ways.

            In my opinion, what helps us figure then out is that their behaviors are in a pathological pattern caused by their N traits in strong concentration. So as long as we learn these behaviors and the reasons for them and as long as we don’t ignore the red flags I think that we can do better the next time we encounter an N.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            I agree with you, MP, that the differences become easier to spot between an empath and an MR once you get to know them better. That has been my experience, too, and prompts an immediate backing away in a friendship context (though not in an intimate partner relationship which is where I seem to fall down). The fakeness eventually rings out loud and clear. The sad part about that is so many people fell for it. Because they are good people and don’t assume the worst about others. Or they are too polite to call BS and back away. I’m inclined to call them out on it at times only because I can see other people getting hurt if they don’t realize how they’re being manipulated. The MR, of course, will use this as a weapon in their own arsenal to cement the impression they are the ‘good person’ and you are the ‘bad person’ for calling them out. To all the world it certainly may look that way. How could you be so awful to such a nice person? Little do they know.

            And they will eventually manifest as you say, Mommypino. We often wait for that day to come as so often we are not believed if we say otherwise.

            The narc, as always, will have the propensity to just move on to their next victim.

          4. mommypino says:

            I agree with everything you said lickemtomorrow.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            That is a really good explanation of spotting the narc via their fuel matrix, Mommypino, and another means to help uncover them.

          6. mommypino says:

            Thank you lickemtomorrow. I think every little bit of information might help. 😊💕

          7. Alexissmith2016 says:

            I was reading your description of spotting mids with interest MP as tonight I had a middle mid. Somatic flirting with me at the gym. Oh god! If only someone from the blog could have been there to enjoy with me how pathetic he was as he repeatedly hinted for me to ask him To show me his six pack and all the pit plays about how fat he was when he clearly isn’t. He’s also the biggest cad in the gym. He’s tried to chat to me many times and I always joking call him a player (which he loves, of course). Then if it isn’t enough that I’ve seen his six pack in the flesh from him lifting up his top and attempting to punch on some fat which just isn’t there, I’m then subjected to viewing lots of photos on his phone of how perfect his body was only just before lockdown. It looked the bloody same to me a Hahhaa. The pity plays about how difficult life is for him at the moment, how I really seem to understand him. Crikey. I was holding my nose throughout as I attempted not to laugh. He takes himself very seriously indeed. But he bored the shit out of me.

            MP I know you’re married to a normal, but I don’t believe I’ve read about your entanglement with a narc and what brought you to the blog? I’m intrigued. No worries if it’s not something you’d like to share though.

          8. mommypino says:

            AlexisS that cracked me up. What a funny guy. They can be really funny indeed if we don’t know them that well. For me an acquaintance is about as much as I am willing to be with a narcissist. Somatics are so funny with their vanity!

            Haha it’s funny you asked because a Somatic brought me to the blog and your gym narc reminded me of him a little bit. He was an attractive handyman that my husband hired to work at our house. He tried to seduce me while working here and even though I did not reciprocate and never told him that I was extremely attracted to him and his overtures, I was deeply affected by it and became highly addicted with my interactions with him that I struggled so badly when he got done with his work and I didn’t see him again. I could not understand what kind of person would behave like him as I have never been entangled with a Somatic before in my life. With my internet searches I found narcissism and this blog and with this blog I discovered that my mom and half sister were narcissists. My mom a victim, my half sister an elite. And my closest frenemy here in the US is a MR as well. She’s the one who told us in our girls’ night out about catching her son masturbate and was laughing about it and she told us that in the context of her being a good mom not allowing her son to be sinful. Some of our friends were laughing and only me and one other friend was cringing. The first guy that I dated was also a narcissist, possibly an UMR and my first close male friend before I dated the UMR was also a narcissist. Those are the two guys I have been involved with aside from my husband and they both happened to be narcs! Thankfully my husband isn’t and I think I just got lucky there.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Sorry, I put my response to your comment higher up in error. Don’t want you to miss it and think I didn’t answer after your spending time putting your answer together for me!

        3. lickemtomorrow says:

          I’ll second you thoughts here, TS. I knew in the end I was being manipulated, but only after coming here have I realized that manipulation was his ‘truth’. I took it back to him in the end because I couldn’t believe that what appeared to be barefaced actually wasn’t barefaced to him. On some accounts I’m sure he knew what he was doing, but in the sense it was instinctual and not premeditated. He knew he needed to bring me under control again, but not the whys and wherefores of that. An element of forgiveness may be on the horizon.

          He did come across as genuine for the most part, otherwise I would never have believed him. It was his belief that convinced me to believe. So that is where the danger lies.

          There are others who were less convincing though not at the start. I could read them better, but being an intimate partner seems to blind you to the red flags others raise. And maybe that’s the difference, too. We have lost our objectivity in the intimate setting. It’s all about emotion.

          The teachings of HG become clearer every day in that respect.

          And the charm of the Greater would definitely be the death knell for those who don’t know any better. Objectivity is the only answer. But it usurps all our natural inclinations as empaths. It’s very hard indeed. To spot them. To stop them. And to keep ourselves safe.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes “it was his belief that convinced me to believe.” This is exactly what I’m driving at. They wholeheartedly believe in their own truth. So, they won’t read as liars. Which means that we will be even more inclined to look at ourselves as the source of the problem.

  13. dollysupreme says:

    Can’t help but laugh at the *died five seconds ago but your brain is still catching up*….howling haha.

  14. Caity says:

    “I’ve never cried for anyone. I didn’t even cry at my granddaughters funeral. But I’m crying for you.”

    Then proceeded to squeeze out one tear over something that had happened several years prior, and to which I had assured him over an over again before this drama, made no difference to me, that he didn’t need to apologise because it wasn’t necessary. It was stupid, actually, but I didn’t say that, obviously.

    In fact, it became crystal clear moments into his ‘weep’ that I had better appreciate it…so of course, I did but at the same moment realized that he wasn’t trying to prove he cried ‘only for me’, he wanted to prove he *could* cry. It was just weird. And one of the many red flags I dismissed.

  15. MommyPino says:

    “I was on a different place then. I have changed now.” Taking advantage of my never ending hope and optimism. There was no change and there never will be.

  16. Sassie says:

    I’m sorry that I haven’t called in a few weeks, My Love. I just got out of the hospital. I got a flu shot and almost died from an allergic reaction. I hope I haven’t lost you.

    LMAO….I was such a fool to believe his stories and excuses.

  17. Virginia says:

    Once he bought a scratch pad and some colored pencils ( he was seeing a single mother with a toddler , I found out later ) I asked him why as he wouldn’t just spend money that easy even on small stuff. He gave me this long winded story that he was designing a twin towers project where the towers would interlace, sponsored by investors from Dubai. He is an attorney and has no artistic, architectural, or engineering aspirations

  18. Karen maher says:

    All lies and exaggerating

  19. Asp Emp says:

    My, how shiny that turd is – didn’t think you could actually polish one.

  20. casleighmay says:

    “I can’t bring you with me to meet my friends because I let down my walls around you and I don’t want to cry in front of them” Yes, really. This was his excuse as to why I was isolated from anyone he knew. I was just confused, somewhere between frustrated, incredulous and unfortunately, touched. I never did meet his friends in an 8 month relationship.

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