The March of the Love Frauds



You died the moment you met me.

My kind are engaged in wholesale slaughter. A daily massacre. Nobody is stopping us either.

These massacres are not literal deaths. No, they way I leave you I believe that you may actually prefer to be dead in order to end the pain. The unrelenting pain and misery that I will inflict on you. What I kill is your confidence, your self-esteem and your sense of worth. I annihilate your finances, obliterate your friendships, shred your sanity and drive an icy cold dagger through your very being. You see, people like you pride yourselves on being honest, decent and understanding. That’s what makes you so attractive to me. That’s what makes the killing all the more complete.

You may think that I am an awful human being and that I revel in the consequences of my behaviour. For some of my kind that is right and for others it is not. Some of my kind have no awareness of what they and believe that what they do just has to be done. Others of my kind know exactly what we do. I am not concerned about how you feel. I have no interest in your reaction to what I do. All I am focussed on is what your emotional reaction does for me.

People are stupid. They need everything to be labelled, to be categorised and pigeonholed. They need great big flashing neon signs telling them what people are as they are too idiotic or lazy to try and work it out for themselves. See the man in a dirty raincoat with unkempt hair that hangs around the children’s playground? He is a child molester. Look over there at the man with a striped shirt and a bag with the word ‘Swag’ on it. He is a burglar. What about the lady in dirty, piss-stained clothes, mumbling to herself and trying to feed the pigeons stones? Oh she is a madwoman. That is what people expect to see. Ask anybody to draw a picture of a murderer and ninety-nine times out of a hundred, they will draw a crazed looking man, dressed in black, carrying a knife or a gun. They won’t sketch their spouse or their relative. Ask a person where they will most find a rapist and they will answer that he will be lurking behind a bush near the subway ready to leap out on some stranger. What they won’t do is point at their boyfriend sat next to them watching television.

And that is where the problem lies. You expect to be able to recognise those that will cause you harm in such an obvious manner. It isn’t like that. There is a reason that those dangerous people are able to hurt in the way that they do. It is because they are all around you. They are sat next to you in your car. They stand with you at the water cooler or in the lift. They talk to you at the school gates or serve you your daily coffee. They permeate society. That is what makes them so effective. The ability to blend in and hide in plain sight. How many times have you heard the neighbour interviewed about the horrific murder of a family by the father, say,

“He always seemed so friendly and happy.”


“He kept himself to himself.”


“He was a quiet man. I never thought he had it in him.”

Or my favourite.

“You don’t expect these things to happen here do you? You always think it couldn’t happen here.”

These people appear as innocuous as they are so ordinary and fit with their surroundings. They have masked what lurks beneath. These people, the drug dealers, the killers and the abusers were ordinary. They were themselves and they made no attempt to hide or be different.

This is what makes me so dangerous. I make a conscious attempt to blend in with those around me. I am a shape shifter. I take on the characteristics of my victims, mirroring what they love and enjoy. I become what you want me to be. You have always wanted to meet the successful business owner. I am he. How about the well-read bookish fellow who enjoys the theatre and some amateur dramatics? I can be him as well. You just love people who have travelled extensively? Let me tell you all about my yearlong world tour. Rock nut? Done. Singer? Do re me fah so lah ti do. Family man? No problem. I will morph and twist into these ideal people and in so doing I will slide my tendrils around you with insidious ease and pull you into the full horror of my world.

You are not able to see me coming. I hide behind a thousand masks. The bad people I have described above make no real effort to inveigle their way into your world. They are already there. They are part of your day-to-day life and you are unlucky that you just happened to be near them when they struck. I am completely different. I have come after you. I have marked you out as my prey and circled you, preparing to strike. I engage in subterfuge to further my aims and to enable me to glide in and out of people’s lives with slippery ease. I suddenly appear. Oh, there may be some existing connection admittedly, but that is all part of the preparation. When I actually enter your life I do so in a blaze of deliciously disorientating glory that has you rooted to the spot and gagging for more, such is the addictive nature of my behaviour.

All my work is done before I engage you. That is why your execution takes place the moment we meet. All else that follows is merely your elongated death throes and believe me, do I like to drag them out for the maximum of effect. I even pretend to try and resuscitate you from time to time. That’s just a ruse to enable me to suck more of the life from you. You may regard that as twisted. I don’t care. So long as I am able to feed, that is all that I care about. I must feed. Each and every moment to try and satiate this insatiable hunger that rages inside me. I think that the hunger can be sated but somehow, it never seems to be the case.

Thus my killing goes on and on and on. Victim after victim piling up and the beauty of it all is that I merely slip on another mask and melt away to find another unfortunate. I walk away leaving chaos and destruction in my wake but I never look over my shoulder.

Should you fear me? Absolutely. Sadly, for you, you don’t know what to look for because I do not come into your life bearing a warning. Once I have emotionally slain you, only then might you recognise the danger a second time but of course, by that point the damage is done. Amazingly, some of you come back for more. Incredible isn’t it? Sometimes it is with me or sometimes with another of my kind. The effect is the same however. Another excruciating death.

The beauty of all of this is that nobody can touch me. Those who might try to bring the sanction of criminal penalties against me usually fail. They either won’t do it because they still love me or that somehow they think they can save me and they would rather do that. There are others who are so broken they blame themselves and not me. Others again are so utterly destroyed they do not have the strength to take action. The very few that do not fall at these hurdles soon realise that my innate charm, my myriad of lies and irresistible powers of persuasion mean that actually getting the criminal law to apply to me is nigh on impossible. It is only right. The rules are not meant for me.

All of this means that next to nobody recognises my kind when we first choose you. Why would you? We bear no mark or label. We do not appear as some stereotype. We do not look like abusers but then what do abusers look like? They look like me. Him. Her.

That man sat across from you on the train in his suit reading a quality broadsheet. The headmistress who crochets around the clock and is a committed Christian.

The abuser looks like the construction worker downing his gallon of beer before weaving his way home.

He looks like the quiet neighbour.

The shy teenager.

The earnest music teacher.

The gregarious uncle.

Him. Her. Them.

You do not see us coming. You had no chance. Society repeatedly fails to identify what we are and how we operate. It downplays what we do with a host of euphemisms and woolly descriptions because people cannot accept that somebody who is so pleasant to them can then be so horrible too. Yet, that is precisely how we operate. Would you trust someone who punched you in the face when they first me you? Of course not. You’d trust him after three years of marriage before the first blow landed though wouldn’t you?

You would not trust the fraudster if he stole ten thousand pounds on his first day at work, but after five years of solid and loyal service you would not think twice that he was forging signatures and diverting funds to his personal bank account. Society and people are too ready to apply labels which diminish the impact of what we do and what we are. You can attest to the horrendous damage that we do, you know better than anybody else of the impact that we have and yet you have to listen to people talking about how he is “misunderstood”, “under pressure”, “not normally like that”, “must have been provoked”. These well-intentioned people cause considerable damage as the ignorant apologists for the carnage we unleash.

Now you know what we are, you can identify us with ease. You can now think back to all the people you have interacted with and now you see us as if we have been daubed in bright red paint. Your colleague at work. The “difficult” customer. Your mother. Your brother. That friend who upset you one week and then fawned over you the next. The lovers. The celebrities. The politicians. More and more of us are identified by you and yet still we are able to do what we want and move on to the next unsuspecting victim. Society does not identify us. Society does not understand what we are. Society is utterly ineffective in tackling us. Our numbers are growing and our devastating impact on the lives of all those we entangle (and it is never just the one person is it) grows but what is being done? Do the politicians know us (save when they look in the mirror)? Do the police officers understand what we are? The nurses? The social workers? The judges? The court appointed psychiatrist? The jury? The neighbours? The teachers? The local government officials? All those who might be able to do something to address what we are rarely know what we are leading to greater frustration for you and the continued advancement of our agendas.

Nobody is stopping us.

What are you going to do about it?

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96 thoughts on “The March of the Love Frauds

  1. TheVimtoSlut says:

    I must say, I DO find it EXTREMELY interesting when I split up with a fella and I’ve got his stuff. Trying to arrange the inevitable handover. Only to find it becomes a ‘ball washing ball ache’. I swear, I’m too kind. And I’m waaay too old for this shit. By hundreds of years.

    Inevitably, my kindness wore thin. I have NEVER been a bargaining chip.

    I gave his stuff to my neighbours. Its not that i didnt even give him time. He just thought, if im not nagging, there is no issue… Right until the point after a warning, it was disposed of. That’s A Warning. I’m not in the habit of repeating myself.

    A lot of matters clunked into place today. I’m more sad it took so long.

    1. A Victor says:

      TVS, someone said to me early on in my learning here, when I lamented learning this later in life than I would’ve wished, “Don’t be sad that it’s just now, but be happy that you’re learning it now!” Or something to that effect. It was helpful. Better late than never. Glad you’re here now. 🙂

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hello Vimto,

      Im a weird fish. If it was my own stuff at someone’s place, I’d get it before I called it quits. Whatever I forget I wouldn’t ask for. Stuff is just stuff to me, I would take the loss rather than have the conversation. Photographs, jewellery, watch, wallet, keys. If I’ve got those I’m good.

      Other way round, again I do it in advance. “It’s over, I’ll get out of your way so you can get your stuff together.” If there was stuff left after that, that’s on him not me.

      Different if you have been living together for years. Very different if you are married. That’s not a one box job is it really?!

      If your split is recent Vimto, I hope you’re ok. Xx

      1. Asp Emp says:

        TS, I’m reading and then I see “That’s not a one box job is it really?!”….. brilliant! Depends on how big the box is! LOL…’s good to laugh after recent days…..

    3. Asp Emp says:

      Vimto, I hope you are ok today. I read your comment, even though what happens to people as a result of narcissists being in their life is not funny.

      But, the way you worded your comment, excellently ‘composed’……I have never heard of “ball washing ball ache”….. that is funny, very funny.

      I know the feeling / thoughts “I’m more sad it took so long”. Good to see that you are here & sharing your experiences. One thing I am pleased about, is that no narcissist can remove your sense of humour, nor your intelligence.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I use the term ball washing bastard with regard to lawyers, TVS copies my usage.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          HG, thank you for clarifying that. I’d thought that lawyers spend more time scratching their balls! Maybe they spend more time massaging them, especially after ‘winning’ a case. They probably do! LOL.

  2. Bubbles says:

    Dearest A Victor,
    It’s under the heading of ‘Acronyms’
    I’ve tried to transfer it here without success ….I’m sure you’ll find it extremely helpful 💕
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Bubbles, are you referring to ISMR? I didn’t see it there. 🙁

      1. Bubbles says:

        Dearest A Victor,
        Sorry lovely, I thought you were looking for ‘all’ the classifications, I didn’t realise it was something specific…. oops!
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  3. Duchessbea says:

    I don’t have an opinion on it either way.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hi Duchessbea,

      I understand. Thank you for your response.

  4. Asp Emp says:

    When I read “People are stupid. They need everything to be labelled, to be categorised and pigeonholed. They need great big flashing neon signs telling them what people are as they are too idiotic or lazy to try and work it out for themselves”….. I laughed hard. Obviously, it’s me laughing ‘inappropriately’. Again. I don’t need to explain myself to anybody.

    Yet, re-reading this article again. Ok, the “system” may have failed me as an individual from a young age because of the lack of awareness of narcissism within families. Or, in reality, and in my view, the refusal to consider it seriously because in those days, the professions understood so little about the various “conditions” that now appear on the DSM lists.

    I watched a programme on tv a few weeks ago and was absolutely mortified when it was said that GPs can opt to take on voluntary additional learning, effectively indicating that there are some medical conditions that are not necessarily learned about. This made me think, well, not surprising that some people who genuinely need support are not getting the support if a GP lacks awareness (training) because they are not ‘recognising’ the needs of the patient. It also made me think, well, what is mandatory for GPs to learn about as part of their training to become a GP? At least, this is something I can actually ask about.

    What other services in relation to: well-being; mental health; emotional health are not providing the support because it is not “mandatory” to have the training within that service provider?

    HG’s Law. Yup, it should be as such. Only then, it would become mandatory to have training in the field of patients who are victims of narcissistic abuse. This is the only way to reduce the number of people walking around like ‘zombies’ because of the LT / ET being totally out of sync. Awareness of narcissism and recognising the affects would also separate the abuse of narcissism from the other “conditions” that individuals may have. This can be recognised by ‘crossing off’ the characteristics derived from narcissistic abuse and leaving other characteristics = to be ‘determined’, if and as appropriate. Again. It’s all about ‘mathematics of science’, which should not be too difficult for them to do!

    Too many uneducated empaths (if addicted to narcissists) are just ‘existing’ instead of ‘living’, just because of the narcissistic abuse they have endured.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Asp Emp,
      “Too many uneducated empaths (if addicted to narcissists) are just ‘existing’ instead of ‘living’, just because of the narcissistic abuse they have endured.” this is perceptive. This was me until I arrived here, so glad we can become educated and start living! 🙂

    2. BC30 says:

      If more empaths knew, over time, there’d be less narcissists created.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        BC30, absolutely! It’ll take a long time though. Unless the Law changes.

        1. BC30 says:

          I’m hopeful it won’t take that long, HG’s legacy grows tenfold by the day. All my close friends and family are aware now.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, that is absolutely great! RE: your friends / family being aware. 🙂

          2. BanterAlong says:

            Lucky u my family is full of narcissist. My friends are unconcerned, mostly religious folk who dont want to think there is anyone Jesus cant save per their bible teachings.

            I decided to participate in this forum to satisfy ny need to explore this topic.

            Many people are vitins if narcs but have developed coping skills.

  5. BanterAlong says:

    I wrote two comments and they are not showing up.

    1. NarcAngel says:


      Your comments are likely in moderation. Refer to The Rules on the site.

    2. BC30 says:

      BA, Do you know or suspect your parents were narcissists? Why do you think you were predisposed to Carrier?

      1. banteralong says:

        🙂 I dont suspect I know for a fact although I have not had the Narc Detector done for both of them. My mother is definitely a narc either a lesser or lesser mid range. Very much and eternal victim. Before I knew narcissism I used to say that she wants to build an alter to her pain. She is never happy, lacking completely in empathy and was happy to see me fail at marraige and struggle. Oh lets not go there I detest her completely now, for all the years and love I wasted on her.

        My father I wonder about he may be narcissitic. He is an ego maniac, never wrong, lies at the drop of a hat. Ugh so awful to grow up and discover that your father lies.

        So there you are both narcs. My father comes from a family of narcs. I think everyone of the 21 kids his father had with 4 wives are narcs.
        I am no contact with cousins and my parents and uncles. I have an uncle who hoovers me with different phone numbers. One he texts me on a new one I block it. This uncle molested me when I was a kid. Thank fully I met HG and now understand hoovers. I always wondered why people with no love nor empathy continue to check up on me when I dont care for them.

        1. Leigh says:

          You mentioned that your marriage failed. Was your spouse a narcissist too?

          1. BanterAlong says:

            🙂 YES. A really bad one. He smeared me to others, was physically abusive and malicious, full of hatred. He had no finess no redeeming qualities OMG. I ran out as soon as my son was born cos I was scared for my son. Years later I got into a relationship with another man now this man was so different. I was almost certain he couldnt be a narc. I had a baby with him and he bailed. I say my ex hubby was like a raging fire. This man was a slow poison. BF was cunning and sneaky in his triangulations. No smearing, no rages but always started a fight for nothing. He was hard to pin, the discard left me thinking that I was wrong didnt love him enough etc. But when I got prego and he walked away from the pregnancy and kept lying to my face about things I hadnt done then I knew god another one!. Thats why I Am so happy for HG cos all these narcissists in my life employed different tactics.
            I now identify narcs as inconsistent words with actions, lying, and lack of empathy.

            I have had to kick some friends and family out of my life. U lie to me about something big once and you are out. U like easily about small stuff and I watch you. Why? I hardly lie and when I have to it is not something I do easily. All my exes I now see were NPDs
            or narcissitic.

          2. Leigh says:

            Thank you for sharing your story with me, BA. I had left you an earlier comment about your empathic makeup. WordPress can be fickle sometimes so I’m assuming you might not have seen it.

            I was curious because our empathic makeup is so similar. I’m a standard empath with significant super and insignificant contagion. I’m a perfect triple hybrid Carrier, Savior & Geyser. I also have narcissist parents and I believe they helped form the empath in me. I think the carrier in me came out because my mother is a victim narcissist and I had to carry the load. I believe the savior came out to protect my brothers from my father. I can’t figure out what kind of narcissist he was. Definitely a lesser narc but I’m not sure what cadre. He used his fists to discipline. I’m currently married to a narc as well. Still in ensnarement but I’m moving towards escape.

            I would really like to learn more about the Contagion. I’ve been discussing with another blogger on a different thread about Contagion and I find it fascinating. Do you mind sharing any stories about how the Contagion comes out in you? If I’m crossing a boundary, please let me know and I will certainly back off.

            I don’t know how long you’ve been on the blog but you do seem to be in the healing process. Good luck on your journey. I look forward to further conversations with you.

          3. BanterAlong says:

            @Leigh no you are not crossing boundaries. I really dont understand the contagion. I have tried to watch videos or read things to see how contagion works. But havent seen any material.

            My mother was very much a constant victim.

            I think I was really trying to save myself. I had internal wounds that made me identity with other peoples wounds and in trying to save them I was subconsciously trying to save myself.

          4. Leigh says:

            Hi BA, here is a link to a comment where I describe how I feel it. There’s some conversation after my original comment with two other bloggers as well. Maybe this will help you recognize it in yourself.


          5. BC30 says:

            Not to butt in, but I read “but I’m moving towards escape.” and thought, “Yay! Iloveyousomuch!”

            Were you speaking with TS6157 about Contagion on another thread? I don’t think I saw a conversation about that.

          6. Leigh says:

            Thank you BC30. I love you too! Escape is always the end goal. I don’t want to be with him forever. No way!

            Yes, TS , LET and I were having a discussion on the Pink Pill Interview thread. Here is where it started:


          7. BC30 says:

            Ty! I just posted a comment to both of you on that article, but directly on one of TS6157’s comments, rather than in the comment chain, so it would be seen.

          8. Leigh says:

            Ok. I’ll keep an eye out for it. Nothing yet, Mr. Tudor might be moderating it.

          9. BC30 says:

            I hope so, because I somehow missed that entire conversation! I see that I was @ tagged, but WordPress doesn’t notify tags.

          10. Leigh says:

            Next time we have a conversation like that, I will make sure I comment under one of your comment to direct you to the conversation. I know you’re gathering info on the empath.

          11. BC30 says:

            Thank you!

  6. BanterAlong says:

    I read Demi Moore’s book Inside Out and I felt sad for her. With all her reflection on her life she cud not or wud not identify Ashton Kutcher as a narcissist. He seduced her, they had a heady whirlwind romance, then the devaluation and the discard. HG you should read that book and do a commentary on it. You can read the part where she meets Ashton and how it all ends.

    He really did slaughter her. Found a replacement and then dumped her. Waiting to see what he does to Mila Kunis. Her story came up on my Radar because the latest edition of Architectural Digest has Ashton and Mila on it. And I thought fucker! Not sure if he was a narc or a guy who just grew out of a marriage so I went and bought Demi’s book and read it and there it was the chase and the devaluation and the discard. Typical HG identified phases.They really are amongst us hiding in plain sight

    At the end of his discard, even Demi’s kids walked away from her and wudnt talk to her. The must have been the finaly slaughter. And her ex-hubby Bruce wouldnt even intervene and ask the kids to talk to her. She thought oh I didnt forgive my mom for my abuse how do I expect my kids to have empathy for me. Honestly her inability to see what was happening was just sad . She seemed to give so much and get so little from her husbands and family.

    I just wonder if narcissim isnt where the human race will end up. Everyone a narcissist, then we will destroy our planet.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      If you read Demi’s book then you got Demi’s take. A narcissist can present as victim because they actually believe that they are.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        NarcAngel, so well said. Agreed.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I have the same curiosity about JLo and Ben Affleck. Talk about hoovering after a long time!

    3. lisk says:

      Do we know that Demi is not the narcissist playing victim and smearing here?

      1. BanterAlong says:

        She didnt smear really just stated the facts of how her marriage ended. In fact she seemed to blame herself said she was smothering Ashton. Ashton cheated a number of times. that into is in the public domain. He justifies his cheating saying it because she agreed to a threesom.e U shd read the book, its really interesting.

        1. MP says:

          I think it’s two narcissists that collided. I don’t think Bruce Willis is a narc. He’s married to a good woman now too.

          1. BanterAling says:

            Wow interesting. I shd dig further when i get a chance. I realky fekt that she was an empathbfrom hwr writing but we know how narcs shape shift

        2. A Victor says:

          Oh dear, I didn’t know Ashton had cheated, I don’t pay a lot of attention to Hollywood etc. Too bad, he’s probably a narc too then.

      2. MP says:

        I think Demi and Ashton is in one of HG’s lists but I’m not that sure.

      3. A Victor says:

        I think she’s a narcissist. She’s struggled with addiction, she’s had a chaotic life, in the tabloids a lot, especially when younger. I haven’t seen her really being a mom along the way, though Bruce Willis seems to be a good dad. She has also struck me as a very self-absorbed person. And the book seems to be one big pity play and triangulation, though that is based only on the comments here. Also, both Bruce and Ashton Kutcher appear to me to be more normal or empathic. Aha! They can go on my next SMTE list! I love, love, love Bruce Willis! He can’t be a narc, that would be too sad!!

        1. MP says:

          Hello AV, I follow Bruce Willis’ wife on IG and she only had nice things to say about him. If you look at her posts, she is obviously an empath. Very beautiful but simple. Bruce Willis seem to be a private person who doesn’t like social media (my husband is the same). The stuff that his wife posts are not stuff that brag or showcase but stuff about their family life and her business.

          1. A Victor says:

            I think he’s a normal. Thanks for sharing that!! That makes my day better!

  7. Duchessbea says:

    HG, have any of your Exe’s ever come close to knowing this is you? Surely one or two have delved into the vastness of the World Wide Web looking for some explanation as to what she was ensnared with and come across your work?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. BanterAlong says:

        How is that? I would expect with the recounting of your stories. ie the story of your girlfriend who identified you as narc sociopath. I would expect her to one day read your story and realize hmmm thats me and my college BF. Or your family members surely could identify you through you stories.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          BanterAlong, I like your blog name 🙂 RE: the family members have their own ‘perceptions’ of HG as he has relayed in various articles on KTN blog. Matrinarc would simply deny it all.

          1. Duchessbea says:

            I suppose it is because you only go after a certain kind of woman, Doormat to be polite. Someone who is not your equal. Women who wouldn’t suspect something is off with you and instead blame themselves for the breakdown of the relationship thinking they were at fault which you, would kindly agree and point that out to them. When I knew something was very off in my relationship, I was out of there quicker than an F1 car. Then I found you HG. Incredulous as you will be to read this next part, I have been with a LR and MR but I have never been with an Ultra, curiosity is what killed the cat, but as a SE, I think even having a luxurious dirty weekend with you, it would be a great battle of the minds and a fabulous battle between the sheets. Of course I’d need eyes everywhere, aswell as hands. Would be dangerous fun, but I think exhilarating.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Duschessbea, was that comment for me, or HG? Or both? Triangulation at it’s best! LOL

          3. BanterAlong says:

            🙂 thanks.

            Matrinarc is such a funny name. I really want to read about what matrinarc did to make HG a narc

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Here is a couple of good starting points RE: your response.




            ‘Regrets’ and ‘Hiding From Yourself’ can provide further insights…… enjoy reading 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Duchessbea,

            We were discussing the EDC on another thread and how we felt when we received our school / cadre results. What did you think of the EDC process ?

          6. Asp Emp says:

            TS, erm, I’ve not had my EDC. Yet.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp Emp,

            No I know you haven’t taken it yet. Was just curious about what Duchessbea thought of the EDC as she mentioned she was SE.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            TS, ok. I see what you mean.

            I do know I am an empath in any case – regardless of school / cadre. And to think in the early days, I was considering a NDC for myself !!! LOL.

          9. banteralong says:

            I did my EDC. Really made things come into better focus. I am a standard empath with insignificant super and significant minority contagion. I belong to the Savior, Geyser and Carrier.

            HG is amazing with his classifications. I used to wonder at codepency cos I didnt really fit that description

            I really appreciate how he breaks down Narcs. I will do a narc detector on my sister for a thanksgiving gift to myself.

            I know my mother and father plus my own predisposition made me into a carrier empath.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            BA, great that you have had your EDC done. Laughed at a ‘gift’ to yourself RE: on your sister. Thank you for sharing your empath results.

          11. Leigh says:

            Hi Banteralong, I just wanted to introduce myself. I’m a standard empath with significant super and insignificant contagion. I’m a triple hybrid Carrier, Savior & Geyser. I too, believe my carrier and savior came out because of my parents. Both my parents are narcissists and so is my husband. I’d love to hear about your story, if you ever want to share. Welcome to the blog!

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            I think taking the NDC crosses a lot of our minds at some point. I didn’t consider it at the start. I have questioned myself more since I have felt back to my ‘normal’ self. I question whether I didn’t feel more empathic when I had raging ET. I have checked back though at how I answered the EDC and TDC and I would have answered them the same way now as then. So I have faith in the accuracy of the EDC and the intellect of the person that created them. More faith in him in some ways than in my own judgement of myself. It was utterly irrelevant to HG what I came out as on the detectors. There’s some comfort in that. It guarantees honesty and accuracy, which obviously I appreciate when I’m being self critical.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            TS, yes, I recall our conversation in relation to me and EDC / TDC. I trust that HG will produce the correct results. I just need to get round to having theme done. I am curious to see what I transpire to be (laughing at myself here). I am always ‘self-analysing’ LOL. Well, not ALWAYS! It stems from a whole life-time of being pulled / pushed emotionally / mentally. It’s amazing at the difference to what it feels like now.

          14. BC30 says:

            Hahaha “triangulation at its best”

          15. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing. Thank you BC30 🙂

          16. BC30 says:

            Asp Emp, please get the EDC 🤓

          17. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, I will – I have a budget which limits what I can pay for. I prioritise, house first, bills etc. Just renewed car insurance. So EDC will have to wait for some time. I will get it done. 🙂

        2. NarcAngel says:

          If you want a glimpse of what Matrinarc did to HG you can start by putting Love is a Taught Construct in the search bar. You’ll find additional details in his books and in various comments on the blog (the archives are a wealth of information and worth checking out).

  8. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

    So so very true…The HG. Tudor movement? Educating the unsuspecting and giving a voice to victims.

    Seriously tho – personal responsibility and educating ourselves so we can help others is possibly the only valid solution at this point. Awareness within the puplic consciousness has to be the place to start…before any real change can emerge…

    Fiction which encompasses these aspect and becomes a mainstream theme…Perhaps..

    But these are my thoughts and highly optimistic…

    I would like to hear your thoughts…

    1. Joy Abia says:

      What makes it so insiduous in narcissists operate in so many different ways

      1. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

        I agree – like a chameleon, very hard to spot. But it is getting easier the more I read from HG 🙂

      2. A Victor says:

        Yes! I feel like I need to make huge charts for my walls outlining the different schools, subschools and cadres and how they each interact, just so I can keep track of this!

        1. BC30 says:

          Why haven’t you? 😆

          1. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I’ve started graphing in a notebook but I don’t have enough time in a day!!! I retire in about 12 years so…maybe then??

        2. BC30 says:

          Retire, what’s that? Hahaha I just had a mini-vacation and threatened to quit in fit of overwhelm when I got back–my boss offered a salary raise! 😲 Does it pay to be a Geyser? 😂 I was just super overwhelmed, but happy we’re having negotiations nevertheless.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, that’s great – hope you get the salary raise. I was going to ask about the ‘cubs’….but if you’re ‘overwhelmed’, maybe it’s not such a good moment 😉

          2. BC30 says:

            Thank you. 🙂 Haha, ask me anything!

          3. Asp Emp says:

            I know. Thank you. I was joking about being ‘overwhelmed’. Ssssoooo, how were the cubs then? Were they fluffy?

          4. BC30 says:

            😂 hahaha ❤️🐻

          5. Asp Emp says:

            😉 😉

          6. A Victor says:

            Haha, right?! I hope I never have to retire, I love working, I get to sit at my laptop and write on here all day!! Okay, not for real, I do actually work too. I don’t think the Geyser would work that way on my boss, he’d probably just pass out!

          7. BC30 says:

            Pass out?! Haha why? tell me more

          8. A Victor says:

            Haha, I once said, at an appropriate place in a conversation “…when I quit.” to him, very calmly and he literally stopped talking so I added “You know, someday…” and he said, “Geez, you just about gave me a heart attack!” That was not even in a moment of Geyser and not imminent threat of me quitting. He doesn’t want to go through the training process again. He did get a bit abrupt today though and that is always a time when I consider my options, no need for that. Anyway, I will stay, I love my job. And now you know, if I unleashed the Geyser, he might pass out.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I really need to find me some Geyser! Xx

          10. Leigh says:

            LOL! I wish I could give you some of mine. Its my favorite!

  9. Duchessbea says:

    GOSO. NC.

  10. A Victor says:

    I have wondered about the part that says people are stupid… but we love our classifications of narcs and empaths. I have to remember it is the narcissist’s perspective.

    1. WhoCares says:


      To clarify, you were referencing the following?
      “People are stupid. They need everything to be labelled, to be categorised and pigeonholed. They need great big flashing neon signs telling them what people are as they are too idiotic or lazy to try and work it out for themselves.”

      I never saw this as applying to the classification of narcs and empaths.
      I always saw it as reflecting on the fact that many people accept the easiest explanation (or label) for what constitutes “bad” people and “bad” behaviour vs. “good” people and “good” behaviour. And it is true, often we do want to pigeonhole people, fit them into our preconceived notions or mental boxes, so that we don’t have to think too hard about it and go on with our day, go on with our life.
      I think this also applies to the concept of “narcissist” or even the concept of “abuse”. I know I had to revisit my preconceived beliefs and understanding of those concepts – repeatedly – since arriving here.

      One of the, many, things I appreciate about HG and his work is how it fleshes out the nuances of human behaviour and the motivation behind it.
      It is much more easy to just put people in a box and not look any further.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        WhoCares, such a brilliant comment. “ I know I had to revisit my preconceived beliefs and understanding of those concepts” – me too. HG’s work paved the way for me to be able to take a step back (when my ET was reducing as time went by) and look outside the box – which I find easier to do compared to others who may have not recognised how to use their lateral thinking patterns.

        “One of the, many, things I appreciate about HG and his work is how it fleshes out the nuances of human behaviour and the motivation behind it”- HG does come across as someone who analyses, a lot. Which is a hugely positive thing in the case of his work. It makes sense to analyse and question once, twice, question it again at a later stage, especially when he knows his methods work, as proven by some and may not be working for others. Hence the reasoning for analysing and questioning – where in the “system” did it not work for that person.

        I did this in previous work places – using a said “procedures” where the end goal was one way yet I could use my mind to find a quicker and more effective with less effort way of achieving the same result, sometimes, a better result. Sometimes, I work backwards from the end ‘goal’ to see where there is a weakness or a ‘broken’ link and ‘re-program’ it my way. Some bosses had issues with that (getting “emotional” about it, rather then looking at it logically). Tough. I still got the job done. I know that I may come across like that in some communications, sometimes it is better to be as such instead of taking a very long-winded route in order to get the same result. That may be viewed as ‘cold calculation’ by some. Yet the ‘inner’ me is still warm & soft.

      2. A Victor says:

        Oh yes, that makes sense WC. Thank you. And in that sense, yes, we can be lazy. I think it applies more the further removed we are from someone. Sometimes anyway.

        I have had two revisit preconceived notions also, often daily, since arriving here too.

        I love the study of human behavior and motivations behind it and have appreciated that about HG’s work as well. I would say that he has a better grasp on it than many, if not most, so called professionals. Part of his wisdom comes from the simplicity behind it, he sets the basic foundation and fine tunes from there. Very logical, of course.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “I would say that he has a better grasp on it than many, if not most, so called professionals.”


    2. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

      I have to admit – I had a real problem with this at first. Despite not being with my ex for some time – I had not gone no contact. I was still so very raw. When we are deceived, we feel stupid. But does it make the other anymore intelligent?

      You are 100% correct –

      A group of thugs might call their victim an idiot for walking alone at night. If they were not stupid enough to do that – they would not be attacked.

      A burglar = the idiots did not even have an alarm!

      Is it another way of displacing blame? Intresting thought 🙂

      I only know that HG’s work is helping me…

      1. A Victor says:

        Aha, you are 100% correct also! It all goes back to perspective! HG has had to remind me of that many times. It has been a difficult one, I think it’s starting to drink in just recently. Thank you for your comment!

        1. A Victor says:

          Sink* in. Autocorrect, grr.

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