What Goes On Below


“Do that again and you will regret it.”

Those are the words which I will speak in about five minutes, but I am getting ahead of myself.

Welcome to my court. Here I am, sat at my rightful place at the head of the table. Prominent, elevated and overseer of those that have been magnanimously invited to look upon me and bask in their admiration of my glory. I sit, fork in one hand and knife in the other. There is food on my plate but I pay it no regard as I did not prepare it. Instead I am smiling. That rich, bountiful smile of the generous ruler that I am as I allow my subjects to draw close to me and experience a fragment of what it is like to be as brilliant as me. I know I am brilliant because right now the flames of power are high and bright inside of me.

They are strong, they are intense and the power they imbue is washing back and forth over me, causing this rictus grin to become affixed to my face. I could not remove this smile even if I wanted to because it has been plastered there by the power that is coursing through me.

This power is edifying and invigorating, twisting flames which dart and climb inside of me so that I feel as if I am taking off. I have to fight to remain in my seat as I want to leap onto the table, booted feet scattering plates and glasses as I allow this power to overwhelm me and I surge towards a higher place and thus empowered I will speak to those assembled and dazzle them.

My mind races, thoughts fighting with one another. I see the smiling faces, the open mouths denoting laughter, I can hear the delight and amusement that I have caused amongst my dinner guests. I did that. I had all eyes on me, those eyes widening with interest and adoration as I regaled my anecdote to the guests. Each focused pair of eyes, the expressions of concentration, the rapt attention that was flowing my way, the mouths closed, set silent not daring to nor needing to interrupt me, all demonstrated that I was the sole attraction here.

As my own eyes looked from face to face, never truly distinguishing who each person was, I drank in the fuel. It was not the recognition of who those people are but rather the emotions that I could see, hear and sense. Each look of admiration, each closed mouth which told me that the floor was mine and they had no need to interrupt as they wanted to listen, from each of the people sat around the table caused fuel to flow towards me, just as I wanted. Here, in my court, sat in my throne, I am surrounded by my lieutenants and members of my coterie.

These inner circle individuals who are supportive, respectful and loyal to me because they know how fortunate they are to be associated with me. Their laughter, delight and admiration flows around the room, like fuel in a tank and I want it all. How wonderful this power is, how it enables me to shine and dazzle so I receive even more of this precious resource. I nod slowly in recognition, almost able to see the pipelines which lead from each guest to me. I can picture the golden, sparkling fuel as it is pumped towards me, ready to feed those flames of power and then I see it.

Your pipeline is empty. Nothing flows along it. That is when I see that you are not laughing, you are not even smiling at my entertaining recollection. Instead, your stare ahead showing nothing as I delivered the flourish of the conclusion to my tale.

In that instant the flames become doused. They are snuffed out and suddenly the power that they created is starting to ebb and I can feel myself falling, sinking and then that sensation of unease begins to spread, from the centre of my chest and radiating outwards. You are sat there seemingly unmoved by my anecdote but not only that you have chosen to signal to me that it did not entertain you, but it meant nothing to you. I can feel the wound caused by your bored look. It pains me, evidence of the criticism which you have sent my way, unjustified and unwarranted.

Then it happens. I feel the ignition as the fury has a spark set to it. The rage begins to climb inside of me. I can feel its effect trying to twist my face into a snarl but I have to control it. Important members of my façade are here, it would not do to explode as I feel like I must do so and let you know what you have done to me.

I want to pick up this crystal glass and hurl it from my end of the table to your end so it strikes you on the forehead and knocks you from your seat. I want to smash a plate over your head but I must control these manifestations of the rage that is rising inside of me. I know I can. I have done it many times before. Thankfully nobody else has seen your treacherous behaviour and I manage to shift my blackening gaze from you to the lady to my left and she is continuing to smile. Yes, smile for me Helen, smile, yes, good.

“That was hilarious, I love your stories,” she remarks as she cuts at the meat on her plate.

I feel power returning from this fuel she has provided for me. Thank you Helen, thank you, I knew I could rely on you. Yes, and you as well Tom, good, sweet Tom who never fails to laugh at everything I say and is still doing so. I can feel the rage being beaten back by this additional fuel which continues to fuel. I blink twice, caught between the receding fury and the gathering power from the fuel.

I can sense the relief as the power begins to wash over me again as I avoid looking at you and keep drinking in the fuel from my friends, my good, kind and loyal friends. They know what to do. They would not betray me, not like you. I am beginning to wonder why I even bother with you now. It is not as if you contribute much over dinner anyway. I would have thought that you would have realised that it is your role to support me and allow me to shine, but you seem not to want to do that do you? I don’t know why. It is not as if I have not been kind to you, too kind maybe, perhaps you need reminding of why you exist? Yes, a prompt reminder is called for.

I would cut you down right now with a scything comment but that might fracture the façade. After all, nobody saw what you did and I am not so stupid as to do something which damages everybody’s favourable impression of me. No, my acidic tongue, although itching to lash out at you, for the fury is still there, albeit diminishing, will stay still in my mouth at this dinner table. I continue to drink in the fuel, feeling powerful, emboldened and engorged. I can tell Helen is interested in me and why not? Perhaps a promotion is on the cards for her, moving her from inner circle friends to intimate partner and installation as primary source. She would relish the opportunity. I have no doubt about that.

I am forced to put consideration of a personnel change to one side as I see you leave the table and head towards the kitchen. Here is my chance.

“Excuse me ladies and gentlemen,” I smile again as I stand. All eyes swing my way again, expectation dancing in them.

“I have some more wine for you.”

There is a cheer and the fuel flows further for me at this delighted reaction to my largesse. The flames are climbing now as I leave the table and the chatter of the guests behind and enter the kitchen where you are about to pick up the tiered cake that you have created for pudding. You whip around as soon as you sense my presence and your eyes are round as you have anticipated what is coming. Good, you recognise my greatness and it does not create defiance but rather uncertainty and fear. I can see your concern etched across your face.

“Do that again and you will regret it,” I say slowly, my eyes staring straight at yours, my gaze impenetrable and darkening. You shrink back as I loom over you. I can feel the flames rising as the negative fuel pumps from you, your fear and apprehension just what I wanted.

“Do what?” you reply.

“Don’t fucking lie to me,” I hiss and this makes you jump. The flames lick a little higher.

“I don’t know what you mean,” you protest. You are rooted to the spot but leaning away from me, your body language fuelling me as it displays your obvious unease.

“Yes you do, how dare you fucking roll your eyes at me,” I press.

“I didn’t.”

“Are you saying I am making it up?”

“No, no, I just I er, “you start to flounder, caught between wanting to cling to the truth, truth-seeker that you are and cautious of enraging me further.

“You just what? Spit it out,” I command.

“I er,”

I want to smile as I delight in your apprehension and the simple exhibition of my power over you. In an instant I have drawn my negative fuel from you and stunned you into confused silence. Power indeed.

“Well?” I urge. I am enjoying this. This is all good fuel.

“Nothing. I am sorry, I must have been distracted by something else, I have a lot on my mind with work, you know, I will push it to one side and enjoy the evening, I am sorry.”

Your apology strengthens the flames. I hold your gaze a little longer as your eyes flick from my left eye to my right eye as if you expect to find approval or forgiveness in them.

“You better had,” I say softly as I continue to look at you, “otherwise…….”

I extend the forefinger on my left hand and slowly and deliberately push it into the sponge of the cake, my digit driving into the yielding cake. Your eyes stare at the gesture as your mouth tightens in fear. I remove my finger leaving a deep and obvious indentation in the top of the cake as I lick my finger clean. I continue to stare at you and wait.

You nod.

There it is the compliance I sought.

The fuel flows and now I can turn and return to my waiting admirers having ensured you understand who is the master and who is the servant.

No raised voices. No smashed plates. No slamming doors.

Façade maintained, fuel obtained and control asserted.

This is what goes on below.

786 thoughts on “What Goes On Below

  1. Joa says:

    N1 was always entertaining the crowd. He was able to “seduce” every person in his environment, from lowlands with a criminal past to intellectual and financial heights. Adored by women and children, imitated by men. Always a leader.

    He seduced me by “seducing” the children… We were at the lake and at one point he left me alone. He started talking to a single woman with two children. These kids looked at him adoringly, stuck to him, played with them, and himself raged on the beach like a child.

    He was very handsome, tall, wonderfully built, male and beautiful “radio and television” voice (similar to HG’s voice, but warmer timbre – they both laugh identically) – enchanted me at first sight. But it was then, on this beach, when he was playing with these children – that I fell in love with him without memory. I looked at this scene enchanted and this spell lasted for many years.

    Over time, I became bored with his repeated anecdotes. Over time, the crowd of admirers around him began to wear me down. With time, the rush of impressions and stimuli began to tire me. With time, I began to recede into my solitude, even though we were still together.

    I am still tired of seeing his daily journeys and adventures flooding social media and my senses.

    Still the same. Going round and round all the time. Only landscapes and companions change.


    I’m mostly codependent, but if I were in this woman’s shoes, the kind of behavior HG described (scaring) towards ME would not go unnoticed. I would certainly keep up appearances, the guests would not notice anything, I was trained to do so in my childhood.

    The punishment would take place already during this meeting (maximum focus of my attention on someone else), or after the last guest has left (silence or a row), or perhaps it would be continued many weeks later. I hate when someone tries to scare me and puts pressure on me like that. I’m not afraid, you can kill me.

    And I have never been, and never will be, a maid.

    My mom serves men. I’ve been looking at it all my life. Beautiful, intelligent, resourceful, energetic, perfect organizer, good material status, own company. At home – a subordinate maid running around her master.


    1. Asp Emp says:

      Joa, thank you for offering an answer to my question in regard to CoDs. Yes, I think it does depend on the experiences of the individual, and whether there is anything else to be considered ie relying on the parent since birth due to deafness. Interesting to read your view on CoDs compared to SEs. Yes, I’d agree on the basis of the “measurements” of the characteristics, maybe there could be some CoD characteristics that may be stronger than the same ones found in some SEs, maybe especially when it comes to the narcissistic traits coming to the fore?

    2. Contagious says:

      My mother was married at 17. 34 years later she divorced my father and married a rich older man. He died of cancer and in 4 months moved in with her current obvious wealthy narc. She says she can’t be alone. Her brother calls her a chameleon. Maid fits:) what is awful is she was my idol… went back to school after raising 3 children ( I was 16), was number one in her college at accounting, got her first job in a bank since she felt ageism by major accounting firms then known as 8, now 6, got her CPA, securities cert, overcame mergers, became a successful private banker to mostly CEOs of bigpharm. Retired. When I made partner, she told me that the only way to be truly rich and successful was to marry well. I think she believes this. Women are generally doomed in her opinion … best be a maid. No thanks

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  3. MP says:

    Regarding the suggestion to make a chart evaluating our comments based on our schools and cadres, if this is really going to be done please do not include me. I would not want my views and opinions to be typecasted based on being a Geyser. Thank you.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      MP, In my view, HG would not consider such a ‘chart’ because it would effectively defeat one of his objectives for the existence of KTN and his Legacy – empowering empaths.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        The chart was a joke.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          The idea of a voluntary list was discussed at one point on a different thread. More with the idea that it would be nice for newer arrivals to meet others in the same cadre and discuss how these same cadres manifest for them. The consensus in the end was not to do it if memory serves me correctly. It might also jeopardise the integrity of the EDC for others, this was flagged up too.

          I am very interested in the EDC. Several others are the same. Whilst sharing my school and cadre once when asked I wouldn’t like to have it on record as such.

          I think many empaths here can spot the cadres and schools lighting up occasionally. It’s not done as an analysis of every comment. Those that have been discussing it tend to look at each other and laugh about their own cadres showing. It’s certainly not being done in terms of analysing every empath on the blog. On certain threads cadres and schools can become more obvious. This was one and is why I think the original reference was made.

          I know your list comment was in jest.

          1. BC30 says:

            Yeah, no list, and as I said elsewhere, there is sooooo much more to take into account not the least of which being personality and life experience.

            However, as pointed out on this thread, Geyser is much more than emotional outbursts. Much more. In the article, HG’s article explains love devotee trait in relation to that cadre among other things. I didn’t need HG to tell me I am an empath.

            I’m still scarred from Denny’s death on Grey’s Anatomy. That, and when Meredith cut Christina’s wedding dress off.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ohhhh BC30

            Denny’s death. Izzy lying on the bed refusing to move. Chasing Cars playing in the background. (was talking to LET about that song on another thread). Then Alex comes in and scoops her up. I can’t watch it without crying. Incredibly incredibly sad. I’m not even Geyser. Brutal scene.

          3. MP says:


            That’s a good example on why I don’t think our cadres make individuals exactly the same. I am not scarred by any movies that I have watched even though some movies still bothers me such a Philomena for example. But would I say that it scarred me? Nope. So we are still different.

          4. BC30 says:

            TS, That scene hurt me so, so much. I stopped watching the show for a long while.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yeah, Denny was the toughest loss, no contest.

            Never ever watch Seven Pounds. The narc recommended that. Don’t think I stopped crying for a week! He did that on purpose.

      2. BC30 says:

        I think they meant a chart about which type of empaths different types of narcissists prefer, not some weird, creepy chart about what individual’s have shared about themselves.

        But one can’t control people, no matter how much narcissists believe it’s possible. As long as HG lets it through, one can share their opinion about whatever they wish to see or what they don’t wish to see.

        But you know what they say about “If wishes were fishes…”

        Not today, Satan. Not today.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          BC30, you have a way with words……. “not some weird, creepy chart” (laughing).

          Well said = your second paragraph.

          Laughing – the rest of your comment. Thank you for that 🙂

          1. MP says:

            Relax. No one is trying to control anyone regarding this topic. I was just opting out “if this is really going to be done”. I never said no one can do it. I was just asking to not be included which is not an unreasonable request.

        2. A Victor says:

          BC30, exactly regarding the chart. Mine would be used only as a visual tool to help me see those connections since visuals are very helpful for my learning. I would not have even thought of trying to put it anywhere publicly.

          1. MP says:

            I understand AV. An explanation would have sufficed. Not sure why there was a need to make a comparison between me opting out of what makes me uncomfortable and Taylor Swift’s entitled remark that has a totally different context and circumstance. And also the reference on narcissists trying to control other people’s words. I was simply asserting some boundary and not stopping anyone from doing it themselves. You can even look at my comment to Kiki on how I can see how it can be fun for others. The personal attack was not necessary nor kind. The only opinion I care about regarding me being NPD or not is HG’s and he has said here in the blog aside from my ED result that I’m not a narcissist.

          2. MP says:

            Just to clarify AV, my comment was a reaction to BS30’s remarks and not yours.

      3. MP says:

        He might allow people to do what they want as he gives us a lot of freedom here. But for me personally, I agree with you that it isn’t empowering so I wanted to be clear that I don’t want to be included and I would prefer that when I interact here they wouldn’t see me as a Geyser and read my comments as just being from a Geyser as there seems to be an impression that Geysers are ruled by ET or emotions and for me personally I have been very practical, thoughtful and logical in most of my important life choices. But I am indeed a Geyser for being a huge love devotee and having very intense emotions. But it doesn’t dictate everything about how I see things or react or the comments I make. There are many factors in each of us individuals that affect our perspectives and how we react. Our current situations also affect many things such as personal problems and even health. So I think that these are best used for ourselves and not for evaluating other’s reactions and perspectives. Just my opinion.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          MP, thank you for your response. We all communicate, or, subscribe on this blog because we have similar ‘reasons’ for being here = as a result of the affects of narcissism, no matter what we as individuals are ‘composed’ of (ie any disabilities, other ‘conditions’ etc – be it physical, emotional, or neurological).

          RE: you saying “There are many factors in each of us individuals that affect our perspectives and how we react. Our current situations also affect many things such as personal problems and even health” – absolutely.

          In my view,

          KTN is not just about educating people about narcissism / learning from each other’s experiences / a space to let our hair down – have a laugh / managing our addiction to narcissism. I also view it as a place where people from all kinds of background (environments, cultures) with different personalities, different neurological ‘approaches’ (ie the human psyche) can communicate their perspective on narcissism’s affects (including those of societal / community = perceptions of others around you, me, etc) on themselves as individuals. KTN offers this ‘information’ to others, including those involved in human & environmental aspects of science, medical professionals as well as those in politics / Law. One main aspect, for me is that I was able to ‘see’ myself. For many, many years, I questioned the reasoning for my ‘existence’ on this planet – that is my brain-wiring, and probably partly narcissism-influence related. I no longer ‘question’ myself as much as I used to, I have no need to.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I have also “…questioned the reasoning for my ‘existence’ on this planet…” as I have mentioned a while back on another thread. And now the same result as you also, not as much. I think it is the leftovers of the trauma and false narrative left in my mind by my narc “parents”. Though I still have a hard time getting my head around why parents would want to do this to their children, it is not difficult to accept the fact that they did do it. And I suppose I do understand that it’s not a matter of them wanting to do so but a matter that they had needs that preempted my and my siblings needs, in their minds, needs that they had no control over. And I’m left with the dregs of them meeting those needs at my expense. Being here I also do not question my own existence as much but I have come to believe that it’s often a sad thing that narcs have children.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you for sharing your thoughts on ‘reasoning for existence on this planet’. It’s always a negative when narcissists have children because the damage for those children start as soon as they are born, unless the children are ‘removed’ from the narcissist(s).

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp,
            It’s a quandary, I am glad you and I and the other ACONs are here, but I wish we could’ve had non-narc parents. And I wouldn’t have my children had my ex not have had children, so it was a positive that he did, as far as I’m concerned. But narc parents do hurt us and do a lot of damage to their children also.

          4. MP says:

            Thank you Asp Emp. I agree with you and I’m happy for you that you have found contentment and acceptance with who you are and have not been questioning yourself anymore. Narc abuse does get us questioning ourselves a lot and it is a big step in healing to be able to reject that unhealthy self questioning habits that we acquired.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you for your response, MP. Good to read what you say here 🙂

        2. Leigh says:

          MP, I don’t see you as a Geyser either. I see you as MP. I do also want to mention, that Geyser is my favorite. Its the one part of my empathic makeup that I feel is all about me. Its how I release. its how I feel things. I absolutely love it.

          1. MP says:

            Thank you Leigh, you’re very kind. 💕

          2. njfilly says:

            Hi Leigh:

            I love the Geyser in me too! It’s my passion and my emotions!!

            I love feeling it all and allowing it to flow and be expressed. I love the depth of how I can feel it, and the intensity in which I can express it. It’s very contradictory to my Carrier side.

            Also, I tend to talk with my hands. You?

          3. Leigh says:

            NJfilly, I talk with my hands and my whole body, lol. I’m very theatrical and over the top. I can’t help myself sometimes. Its very contradictory to my Carrier side too. I can be very passionate about things but I’m not a love devotee. The passion is often towards things I believe in, not love. Maybe someday, I’ll find someone I can love and be passionate with.

          4. njfilly says:


            Interesting. I’m not a love devotee either. When I wrote passion I meant toward things I believe in, hobbies I love, or deep conversations. (but also passionate sexual encounters!)

            Honestly, I don’t understand how it’s possible to talk without using your hands! Yes, I use my whole body too!! I can be very expressive!

          5. njfilly says:

            I want to be with somebody who can provoke my passions in all ways.

          6. Leigh says:

            I agree!

          7. A Victor says:

            Leigh, your comment sent shivers down my back. The reason you love it, it’s all about you, it’s how you feel things, it’s how you release, these are the reasons I don’t love it! I find that absolutely interesting. For me, still, these things are embarrassing and bothersome. Is it my heavier dose of Savior? Are Saviors more prim and proper? Does Savior reject allowing it to be all about me? Or is it that I was not allowed these as a child so I feel tremendously uncomfortable allowing them out now? A combination probably. And I do have a much smaller dose, so that is likely part of it also. Thank you for sharing that, it is good food for thought.

          8. Leigh says:

            AV, I don’t know why, but I feel this great need to be a little selfish right now. I really feel the need to think about me and the Geyser in me, helps me do that.

          9. A Victor says:

            That makes sense. I think what you’re contemplating and planning is going to take some selfishness so put that Geyser to good use! You’ve earned it!

          10. BC30 says:


            Indulge me please, but I want to point out again that the presentation of any of HG’s school/cadre classifications is highly unique to the individual and affected greatly by environment, life experiences, psychological/psychiatric presentations, and the type of narcissist the empath is engaging with. I certainly acted differently toward UMR and MMR.

            “This type of empathic tendency is marked by high energy levels. One might even go so far as to say that shades of hyper activity…” Nope, this is just not me.

            “If they are denigrated, the tears will not flow but they will cascade along with that trembling bottom lip…” > I will throat punch you while crying.

            “They are the greatest love devotees of all empaths, they truly believe that with love everything can be solved.” > I still believe this, I just didn’t know it would be exploited.

            “No matter how many times they are let down, hurt, cheated on and so forth, they will soon bounce back.” > Fuck that noise. You cheat on me once, and I’m out. But, in order for me to leave/escape, I have to know. I have and will hire a private investigator.

            Anyhow, my whole point is that we are all very unique and only exhibit some of the many traits of any given school/cadre.

            BTW I do talk with my hands. 😉Be selfish and take care of yourself ❤️

          11. Leigh says:

            BC30, you say, “I certainly acted differently toward UMR and MMR.” Me too! I definitely acted differently towards my husband and workplace narc.

            High energy and hyperactive. That’s a check for me.

            No tears from being denigrate. Another check for me.

            No matter how many times I’m let down, I bounce back. Yep!

            Love devotee and believes that love can solve everything. Not me at all. I don’t fall for love bombing. It seems fake to me. I do believe that children need to be shown love.

            One last thing, the geyser helps me to release.

            Thank you for sharing this BC30. It reminded of the many facets of the geyser.

          12. BC30 says:

            Yup! And I got my dad’s ED. It’s what I expected.

          13. Leigh says:

            BC30, I’m glad you got the results you were expecting. Its nice to see that there really is a chance for empaths to find each other and be at peace with one another. You and your parents story inspires me and gives me hope. Thank you for sharing it.

          14. BC30 says:

            To be sure, my parents separated over 25 years, and my dad is a DE. They’re not divorced for legal reasons, but it was contentious. I didn’t speak to my dad for several years (SE). Despite all the rancor they are civil for the rest of the family.

          15. Leigh says:

            So, your parents aren’t together? I just assumed they were still together. I thought they were a real life love story.

          16. A Victor says:

            BC30, more word parsing, I love it! Going to parse a couple of articles right now, thank you for the idea!

      4. Contagious says:

        I don’t know of a chart. But I am waiting in more information on Contagian. It fits like a glove as does Carrier. I have seen leading “narc” experts say Empaths don’t exist. I have read about science and contagion empathy. To thy own self be true. So important to love and accept yourself and validate and accept others where ever placed chart or no chart. HG is brilliant. Narcs have empathy. Those with empathy differ in how they experience it. HG will someday shed light on this more specifically. I am eager to hear his insight. I think HG gives a spectrum of empathy. You are in the total as am I but our specific traits he points out. Same family and same love:)

        1. Contagious says:

          Correction: narcs have no emotional empathy:)

    2. Kiki says:

      Why would anyone bother making a chart on Empath responses ?
      I couldn’t see any use in it whatsoever and in my view would be extremely self indulgent , this blog is called knowing the narcissist not knowing the Empath .
      If we need to plot analyse and evaluate comments from empaths , Lord help us we are moving from one problem ( narcissist) to another .


      1. Kiki says:

        I for one am here to learn how to cope with my ET , not add to it .
        I mean this kindly but honestly our cadre school of Empath is no one’s business but our own .
        I can only speak for myself ( and this may sound narcissistic ) but Iam not interested in posters cadres / schools etc as none of my business.I’m interested in learning how to navigate out of my ET and longings for ex Narc .I need this site to give me a kick of logic and reality everyday.
        I was under the impression it was not to be discussed here.
        Maybe I’m incorrect.

        Kiki ❤️

        1. Violetta says:

          My impression is HG won’t reveal it, but readers can, if they wish. This has occasionally led readers to ask HG for back-up during an argument about who’s-the-narc.

        2. Eternity says:

          Kiki ,
          I actually learned a lot here about being an Empath I don’t go around and say hi I am an Empath. The one thing that I learned the most is that I am addicted to Narcissists. You don’t need to share your ED details with anyone that is obviously your business. Coping with ET is so hard but we can try and manage it .

        3. MP says:

          Hello Kiki, I view my ED results the same way as you. Not something that defines me but something that I use as a tool to help me gauge my behaviors and choices etc. It doesn’t mean it defines every aspect of my behavior or points of view or reactions. But I can see how others are having fun about it. I just wanted to opt out as I don’t see it being helpful to me. ❤️

        4. MP says:

          “Our cadre/school of empath is no one’s business but our own.”

          I agree exactly.

        5. Leigh says:

          Hi Kiki, If I may, for me, I like to share my experiences and my empathic makeup because I think it could help others who are in the same situation. If someone like us, is out there reading this blog, now they know they aren’t alone. Then they may decide to stay and learn and eventually be free from the narcissist in their lives.

          On the flip side, I like to see other’s empathic makeup because often times when I see it in someone else, the lightbulb will go on and then I can see it in myself. As for lowering our ET, I think understanding our empathic makeup will help us lower or ET. For instance, I’m not a love devotee, so the love bombing does not work on me. It doesn’t heighten my ET, if anything, it lowers it. Love bombing makes me think, “something ain’t right, here.” On the other hand, I’m a caregiver and if I see someone in need, that heightens my ET and fall for it every time.

          You are 100% correct that Its your right not to share. I just wanted to give a differing opinion and wanted you to see that sharing isn’t necessarily self indulgent.

    3. A Victor says:

      MP, I have been thinking of and even begun writing out the different types of empaths and narcissists as outlined in HG’s books regarding these for an eventual personal use chart. They would only be for my benefit for helping me to retain differences and similarities and would not include individuals. I am curious about some things around the schools/cadres and have hoped that at some point HG would expand on certain things, and I do enjoy the conversations around the schools and cadres a lot, for learning. I do not think of you as Geyser, you are MP.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Hi AV, have you seen HG’s Acornyms (located under ‘Formal Info’)? I found that really useful 🙂

        1. A Victor says:

          Yes but not with this in mind, I’ll take another look, thanks!

      2. MP says:

        Thank you AV. 🦋

    4. BC30 says:

      This made me giggle because it reminded me of the famous line, “I would very much like to be excluded from this narrative.” LOL (but duly noted).

      1. MP says:

        It may remind you but it’s not the same.

      2. MP says:

        Not sure why you have to reference Taylor Swift or narcissists trying to control someone else’s words just because I didn’t want to be analyzed based on my empathic school/cadre. Instead of just simply saying “duly noted” you have to make a passive aggressive remark. If you think everyone always has to agree with you then you have some growing up to do.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          MP, your paranoia is surfacing again. I do not believe BC30´s remark was aimed at you.

      3. MP says:

        Anyway, I don’t want this to blow up. You’re entitled to your opinion about me. I was just simply exercising what I thought was my right to say No. if that makes you think I am like Taylor Swift who we all know is a narcissist then you are entitled to your own truth. I’m still glad that I said no to what I thought would make me uncomfortable.

        1. Violetta says:


          You have company. If I get my EDC done, I may not want to discuss results either. If I turn out to be an empath at all, it may not be in one of the Kewler-sounding categories.

          1. MP says:

            Thank you for understanding Violetta. ❤️❤️❤️

          2. Another Cat says:

            Same here, if I turn out to be an Empath all, which I highly suspect since I constantly ask and ponder how everyone in the room is feeling and their lifestories, Saviour and Contagion are probably floating about in the pond somewhere.

  4. NarcAngel says:


    Your comment re: remaining Tudor minutes gave me a chuckle.


    Would you be willing to give us a glimpse by way of examples into of the various types of Tudor minutes requests you received?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Reading poetry or from a novel, playing the piano, recording a roast of their particular narcissist, telling a story, reading a piece of writing the purchaser has written, singing a song, providing a sexual tale, telling someone what I have been doing that day, what spending time with me would be like – those are just a few.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Re; Tudor minutes

        I had wondered about creativity in the requests. Thank you for obliging.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I’ve thought a couple of times while taking a shower that HG would make the sentence “paraben-free” sound sexy.

          1. A Victor says:

            Sweetest Perfection, especially if you heard it while in your shower! Yum!

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha AV, are you imagining me in the shower???

          3. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, no! I was imaging anyone, since we’re all faceless, hearing HG speak to us while we’re in the shower! Would certainly liven my showers up! The yum was for NA’s “chocolate tonsils”!

      2. Violetta says:

        “Reading poetry or from a novel”

        I’d happily listen to you reading your grocery list.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Violetta, LOL……

      3. BC30 says:

        Most excellent! I’m glad to see there is a variety these days.

        1. A Victor says:

          BC30, He’ll sing!! Yay!!

          1. BC30 says:

            Surprising, right?! But HG indulges my morbid fascinations, which is more than good enough for me. ⚰️

      4. A Victor says:

        TS, *whispering*…there’s nothing on there about “breathing”…:(

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          *whispering* “We’ll get NA to ask him the same question again in a few weeks.” 😉

          1. A Victor says:

            Hahahaha!!! Love it!! Yes, we will!!

          2. A Victor says:

            TS, or we’ll try anyway. 🙂

  5. Another Cat says:

    “Unaware Mid Range Narcs often declare themselves as Super Empaths”

    I’ve noticed this wishful thinking, HG. Some of us ACONs have this about our extremely energy consuming Middle Mid Type B mother, the type who is often mistaken for borderline.

    Since I had met Super empaths in my childhood/teenages, I kind of assumed that my mother was one of them. “Yes, she is extremely grumpy on the outside, but probably very just and fair on the inside”. You know,like some heros we often read about in articles and books and fairy tales.

    Then there were all these tiresome difference, I was never enough, goalposts constantly moved, yelling… and, well, lots of daily abuse towards my father and myself, silent treatments, calling our employers, etc. I remember thinking that “Fair-on-the-inside people can be a piece of work”. It took me years and years to realize that something was really off with her.

    Mids think they are super empaths, yes.

    Luckily 2 or 3 SE friends are still around.

    1. MP says:

      Narcissists do a lot of great things. They could even be very proactive, more proactive than empaths when it comes to being out there helping people or doing good deeds. But they’re still narcissists in the core so they assert superiority and control.

      There was this school board member here and she was a teacher when my husband was a school board member. He didn’t care for her because it’s her way or the highway and she was a bully she bullies for her cause which is to help teachers. My husband retired when his youngest graduated but this teacher now got elected and last election she was so disrespectful to the parents who didn’t agree with her that there was even a thread of parents who felt she was dismissive and disrespectful. Then a parent criticized those people who criticized this school board member because she felt that they were smearing her and they are the bullies. Then another parent commented about how this lady went to their house regularly when this lady was her son’s teacher and her son got sick to teach her son in their home. It was like she was describing a saint. So the people who criticized this woman was criticized and even called names by people who she helped and liked her. Funny thing this woman was caught trespassing a former teacher’s house to vandalize this former teacher’s poster supporting her opponent and so she had to apologize she lost the election because it was so stupid what she did. Trespassing someone’s yard to vandalize their poster supporting your opponent is a clear lack of boundary and high entitlement. I personally think that she’s a narcissist or highly narcissistic but there’s no denying that she has helped a lot of people. But I bet she would believe that she’s a Super Empath too.

  6. WiserNow says:

    I think you need to ‘redact’ a little more prolifically. You have done it to me before I can even get the words out, yet certain things have been said without you using your ‘redacting pen’. When you made your orders of non-interaction the orders covered TWO people – me AND the other person.

    You really don’t like empaths who talk back much do you? You are much more forgiving when it comes to the ‘narcissistic perspective’.

    1. HG Tudor says:


      Here you go again telling me how to run my blog.

      Yet again you have failed to read what I explained to you previously with regard to the rules and the nature of exchanges. I know it is not what you want to read, but that is how it is and no matter how many times you attempt to ignore it, it is the way the blog operates.

      If you do not like it, go elsewhere, but you do not.

      I have no issue with empaths “who talk back much”, because I allow people to express their views (something you acknowledge yourself when you contradicted yourself in criticising me) and where necessary I correct an inaccuracy. I simply take issue with an individual who repeatedly fails to see how they behave, despite it being repeatedly pointed out to them.

      Your insinuation about the narcissistic perspective is risible.

  7. Fiddleress says:

    HG: is your “okey cokey” the cockney version, with the dropping of the initial ‘h’ at ‘hokey’?
    Just wondering…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Could be.

  8. WokeAF says:

    Holy Heyzeus!

    Ok well, as sure as death & taxes , I guess.

    I don’t know if anyone remembers me. (Got distracted from KTN last year -Autistic teen w mental health issues etc)

    Add Functional Neurological Disorder & ADHD to the list. He’s heading into a residential home for young men w special needs x co morbid diagnosis. He’s doing so much better .

    I had to go to an abuse shelter a couple months ago- 1.5 years of caring for son in high crisis, I started to have some PTSD symptoms. Except not POST.
    Most of my few personal belongings have been smashed . I lost my health care job due to fatigue.
    With him finally getting a proper diagnosis , I set up a crack team of medical & special needs supports for him and got them all in touch w each other. Did it all while living w his father, my ex- bc kid needed 24/7 crisis care.
    For a fucking year & a half.
    Also managed to be sick for A MONTH w a virus that attacked my lungs and I was in hospital twice. Never so sick in my life. The irony is I tested negative for Covid 😆 I think I had a shitty test and want to get tested for antibodies now.

    Anyhow. I knocked one of the four horsemen of my personal apocalypse off his horse , and rode it straight back into hell, saved my son, and came out 1.5 years later , with my hair still smoking and a pet dragon.
    I was surprised to find out there was still a pandemic.
    With the kid in safe care, I spent 2 months in a luxury shelter here on my island. The all female staff mothered me through the trauma ,2 weeks of crusts then 7 weeks of crying & I found my footing.

    I have now rented a lovely room in a lovely family home back on my lovely island. Kid is doing so much better. I’m a new empty nester now, and it’s bittersweet . Finally I can rest.

    All that being said , this thread was great reading.

    I just want to apologize to anyone I ever had the hubris to deem a narcissist on this forum, and also anyone I argued like an idiot with about this that or the other stupid pointless bullshit. I really got caught up in my own narcissistic traits , a few times. It’s hard to believe , now.

    HG, I REALLY liked the Order of non whatever 😂

    Also is MP . & MommyPino the same person?
    What’s an ACON?
    I’ve lost the plot a bit.

    I’ll be changing my handle soon . Not sure to what.

    Seriously , check out the show “FLACK”- I think it could be another BLL

    1. WokeAF says:

      EDIT: ,2 weeks of CRISIS^*

      1. OkeyWokey says:

        The FUCK is the okey cokey?!

        Is it like the hokey pokey?

        I just found my new handle.
        Should remind me to keep my mind right on here

        1. Witch says:

          You put your left arm in
          Your left arm out
          In, out, in, out
          You shake it all about
          You do the hokey cokey
          And you turn around
          That’s what it’s all about
          Woah, the hokey cokey
          Woah, the hokey cokey
          Woah, the hokey cokey
          Knees bent
          Arms stretched

          1. Asp Emp says:


        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Woke,

          I remember you, don’t think I’d been here too long when you were commenting regularly. Really sorry to hear about how difficult things have been for you. Hopefully things with your son continue to improve and you get a well deserved rest.

          1. OkeyWokey says:

            It will likely be a lifelong challenge , but I’m in.
            The kid is aging me rapidly but my sense of humour is in tact. So is my “LT”

            Thank you.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Okey Wokey,

            Yes, it sounds like it will be an ongoing thing from what you said. Something that will need constant management and as time goes by you both will learn more about what works best.

            My son started with psoriasis around 18 months ago. It appeared on his forehead over night and spread rapidly on to his neck, patches on his face etc. Not as severe as your situation I know, but it broke my heart. He appeared calm, handled the comments in school, but underneath I knew he was scared that he would be covered in patches.

            Doctor was useless, specialist was useless. I researched, spoke to people, got in touch with my auntie who has had it all her life, tested cremes, washes, shampoos on myself to check they wouldn’t burn etc. That’s what mum’s do. I found a magical combination of shampoo, face wash and prescription creme ( we use it only occasionally now) that worked to keep things under control. Not perfect, but under control. He trusted me to find the answer and I did. He never lost faith in me. We know our kids, we can find what works because we keep trying, searching and switching until we do.

            You will find a regime that works best to manage things, it won’t be perfect maybe, but it will get easier. Im glad your ET is nicely under control. That’s not easy under stress. You’re over the worst now, onwards and upwards!

          3. OkeyWokey says:

            My father has psoriasis since a kid , same as your kid, all over his body.
            He’s used cortisone creams / oils (which left his skin paper thin 🤷‍♀️) and tar shampoo .

            I was lucky I only got it on my scalp a bit, ( on my knees as a kid, ) …but now any scar has the risk of turning into an affected area.
            No more piercings for me lol – just in case !

            Watching our kids suffering pure Hell. My hope goes to you and your son

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Okey Wokey,

            Yeah, some of the creams can be so harmful long term. The specialist prescribed the tar shampoo for my son. You know what worked for him in the end? Aveda invati shampoo! Mad isn’t it? Aveda products suit me too, the cream I mix myself and is based on several ingredients in a cream that works for my aunt.

            All to say, specialists don’t know everything. They diagnose and go with what they were taught. It can be a sausage factory approach. Sometimes your own research and delving into your own family history can tell you more. The strangest things can make big differences in conjunction with what specialists suggest. (great that the specialists are talking to each other).

            Thank you for your good wishes, the same to you Woke.

      2. Another Cat says:

        Holy cow, WokeAF

        You pulled through a lot for your son and yourself. A lifetime of work. ❤️

        1. OkeyWokey says:

          And a lifetime to go

          But what else matters ? 😊

          I’m resting huge.

          Thank you for your kindness.

          1. Eliza-BadGrammer says:

            Autism and ANYTHING else is so Hard !! Hope things will continue on an upswing for you both <3
            Im rooting for you xo !

    2. Asp Emp says:

      WA, thank you for sharing. You obviously have been through a lot. It is a really good comment.

      ACON = adult child of narcissist.

      It is good that so many areas of your difficulties have been managed to the point where you can start to move forward for yourself. Hope the path forward is a lot easier than the one you have been on.

      1. OkeyWokey says:

        Yes it’s time to move into Woke 2.0

        You grow through trauma .

        (Unless you disassociate to the point of having a false self take over bc it’s just.too.painful to exist anymore.
        Which I now quite understand, sympathize and empathize , and have zero resentment at. No wonder. NO WONDER. I’m an ADULT and I started to have PTSD watching my child suffer , unable to end the pain. Imagine being a child with parents that don’t love you and abuse you .
        I now commend narcissists (BPD, codep, etc) for just continuing to exist and not offing themselves.)

        Thank you for the ACON meaning.
        And your altruism .

        1. Asp Emp says:

          OW, interesting but not surprising to read “Unless you disassociate to the point of having a false self take over bc it’s just.too.painful to exist anymore” – I have experienced that myself – but never recognised it as the way you describe it as above until I came to KTN blog to learn about ‘me’ as well as narcissism. As for the rest of your comment – totally understandable and I respect you for stating that out loud. It’s more about learning to understand the addiction to narcissism rather than annihilate them for having the ‘condition’. Yet, my past narcissists, I can’t because of the abuse from them to me. It’s about moving forward with the new knowledge & understanding.

          You are very welcome. You did well for yourself & your son 🙂

          1. WhatTheWoke says:

            Well NPD is everywhere, might as well understand what it is . It’s a mental illness. Compassion but ——> over there.

            Except for the ones already grandfathered in. 😆

          2. Asp Emp says:

            WTW, your first sentence – exactly. We have no option really. We can either co-habit the earth with them or singularly buy a farm in the middle of nowhere and not bother mixing with humankind again or forever be controlled by our addiction to narcissism and never have a life of what we can call as ‘individuals in our own right’.

            Compassion……. er, well, that’s ‘conditional’ 😉

            The ones grandfathered in can grandfather their way out via the crematorium.

    3. Z -zwartbolleke says:

      Hello WAF
      Good to see you back!
      Oh my god, that’s a lot to go through….

      Did you have to quit your studies as well?

      I hope your recovery goes onwards and upwards!

      Hugs, x

      1. OkeyWokey says:

        School is paused- but learning Defin is not

    4. Leigh says:

      Hi WokeAF, welcome back!

      ACON is Adult Child Of Narcissist.

      Yes, MP & MommyPino is the same person.

      There’s a lot of newbies here but many oldies but goodies are still here as well. I remember you but I’m not sure if you remember me. I didn’t comment much when I first came to the blog.

      You’ve had quite a year and a half. I can understand the need to go back to the devil in order to care for your son. I’m glad to hear your son is getting the help he needs now. I’m also glad to hear that you can finally rest.

      1. Woke says:

        Oh , I went through Hell alright

        but buddy was right- all the Devils are Here

    5. WhoCares says:

      Hi Woke,

      Wow, that serious series of misfortunate events – amazing that you’ve come through all that with such positivity in the end.

      I had asked, at times when you had popped in, about your schooling…but after reading that list, I think I probably know the answer. You had way too much on your hands.
      It’s nice to see you back!

      1. OkeyWokey says:


        Yeah no school . I did continue to study my fields of interest independently. Obv I had to expand LOL. Bc FND was defin not on my list.

        I intend to enroll online and take philosophy actually just for the fuck of it . I’ve considered actually moving on campus just to be the cougar and have fun but a-I’m a sober person b-I’m in my Jammies by 7 so …I’m afraid I missed that window
        I will not be returning to healthcare full time or even to the rat race full time as I’ve decided to spend the 2nd half (ok the last 1/3rd) of my life doing whatever the fuck I please and living simply. It’s not that hard to keep ONE body alive, as ive discovered. Not even expensive either. Depending on your priorities.
        (Mine sure got put in place.)

        Being a good enough mother to my boy may well be a lifetime challenge but I feel ok with that.

        Thank you – and everyone else altruistic enough to comment -, it’s nice to be treated kindly , & it feels good to feel supported.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “I intend to enroll online and take philosophy actually just for the fuck of it . I’ve considered actually moving on campus just to be the cougar”

          Both those options sound kinda fun.
          I understand about reorienting your priorities.
          It sounds like you’re choosing some ways to be kind and gentle to yourself…deservedly so.

        2. Violetta says:


          Glad to see you’re not only back but doing better. Gutenberg and Harvard classics have a lot of Great Books (official designation) on line for free. If you don’t want to use up your plan by reading on line, sometimes you can download a file, or highlight the whole thing, paste it into a word document & save on a flash drive. I sometimes used to print out double-sided copies at F.U., punch holes in them, and put them into a binder so I could get away from the screen glare and read them like real books.

          Some sites, like Internet Archive, also have a lot of obscure treasures, but they’re not always as easy to copy. Someone scanned the moral tales for children edited by the clergyman who ran the school that killed off two Bronte sisters and traumatized the rest (filleted as “Lowood” in Jane Eyre), and I’m doing screen captures of two facing pages at a time, then cropping the margins and expanding the text. Honestly, Charlotte was too kind to him.

          I’m sure you can find all sorts of philosophy or theology texts, not just literature, if you want to do some independent reading or find an obscure source.

    6. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Woke

      Glad to hear that in the face of all that that your son is doing better. I’m sure that will expedite your own recovery. Better days ahead.

      1. WokerThanTheJoker says:

        Well NA, you know me .

        1. NarcAngel says:


          Atta girl. Can’t get much out of life locked in full fetal.

    7. MP says:

      Hello WokeAF,
      Yes that’s me. I just thought two letters might be easier. I also didn’t think MommyPino is a good sounding name. I wasn’t that creative. I just thought that I’m a mom which makes me the happiest and I am a Filipino always in my heart no matter where I live.

      I’m glad to see you doing great. And apologies have been accepted a long time ago. I understand and I have been argumentative too. ❤️ I’m far from perfect.

    8. MP says:

      I also want to add that I’m glad your son is doing well. The residential home for special needs will hopefully be good for him. From what I have been hearing it is really good in most cases because it gives them companionship and a sense of independence because they don’t live with their parents. I have a special needs son so it was one of the options we have looked at. I’m sorry you went through a lot but I’m so glad you got a lot of support and are doing well now. PTSD is super hard when it attacks. I’m so sorry you have gone through so much. So glad you have stayed positive through it all.

    9. JB says:

      I remember you too, WokeAF. I’m really sorry you have had such a tough time, but I’m glad your son is doing much better now x

      I didn’t realise MP and MommyPino were the same person either! 😂

    10. Contagious says:

      Woke my best has a high functioning 17 year old in residential now. I wish she would join a support group as this stay. It’s been hell as her teen won’t go to school, cuts, attacks physically and verbally and constant suicide ideation and attempts. Nothing seems to help. I feel time… but anyway words of advice? Her ex is a narc. Doesn’t care. At all. Alone. I give her all the support I can but no solutions.

  9. Eternity says:

    Why can’t people try and get along with one another here on the blog? I am sure each and everyone one of you have been through some sort of Narcissistic abuse. Let us try and be there there for each other. Peace

    1. WiserNow says:

      Your question, “Why can’t people try and get along with one another here on the blog?” made me smile. It sounds innocent and charming. I bet human beings have been asking themselves that question since the dawn of time in some shape or form.

      The answer . . . I guess it’s because some humans aren’t endowed with mirror neurons or sensitivity (except when it comes to their own ego) and can only feel a limited amount of emotion. They survive on fuel and character traits and provoking and using other people sooo. . .

      It’s all down to those pesky perspectives . . .

      Seriously though, there’s a good video HG has done called ‘The Narcissist’s Lens’, in case you haven’t seen it already 🙂

      1. Eternity says:

        Hi Wiser own,
        I will definitely check out HG’s video. Thanks for your input 👍

        1. WiserNow says:

          You’re welcome Eternity 🙂

      2. Contagious says:

        I also think that life is hard. The harder as we get older. I don’t know if it’s the times or my age. There are certainly things about the times ( climate change, economic inequality growth, pandemics, inflation) that make it harder. But I feel there is such anger and people can’t cope. It pours forth unto others. Myself, I am a savior and contagion, I retreat at times to nature and surround myself with my kind tribe. And I hold my sword high and try to live life with compassion, kindness and integrity. It’s needed. I remind myself that people are in pain, just struggling to cope.

    2. OkeyWokey says:

      Pride , superiority, emotional thinking .
      leading to tearing bits out of each other bc we hide under our special cadre of the label of Empath all the while engaging in one upmanship circle jerks, mindless sycophants empathically climbing over each other’s torn bruised online bodies to outquote each other and feel smugly satisfied we know something enough to defend it without any actual hard evidence except it resonates with our own opinion.

      This isn’t a support forum , it’s a place to showboat.
      And play Us Vs Them, and get real , REAL good at it.

      But it’s tasty, right? Lol But don’t mistake it for more than entertainment.

      If you present your RL story you might get an ounce of support and comradery as I have.
      Or you might get accused of victim mentality or superiority and eaten for breakfast.
      It’s a gamble 😆 May the Odds Be Ever in Your Flavour

      Get it – breakfast – flavour

      1. Eternity says:

        Whatever you like WokeAF, I think I will pass I I can spend the afternoon at my relatives house if I need all of that.
        I came here to learn about Narcissism and have had several Narcissist’s in my life and trust me that was more than a gamble.
        Take care xoxo

        1. A Victor says:

          Wow Eternity, I did not expect that from you! I am so impressed, you have the assertiveness I am trying to learn! Yet you are so sweet at the same time! It’s the perfect combination. You said that so well. Thank you for the example and for your clear minded thoughts. Did you have to overcome fear to be assertive like that? How did you do it? How long have you been here? Did you learn this here or have you always been so strong? Please forgive all the questions, I am just so curious, this is exactly what I’ve been working on recently! Thank you again!

          1. Eternity says:

            A Victor,
            Sometimes except the unexpected. Thank you so much 💓.I have always had it in me and I do stick up for myself if you don’t no one will. I fight my own battles. You are definitely learning A Victor, and you are strong. I don’t really have fear except for a horror movies,and snakes ha ha. I can be blunt with people without hurting anyone’s feelings. I definitely have learned a lot here on KTN., but life makes you strong as the years go by. Life lessons. Don’t ever ever I repeat let anyone step all over and control you there are choices and we need to make them for the best . We only live once .
            I have been here about 2 years.
            Now being on my own I has searched deep inside myself and found that I have qualities I never thought I had and they are coming out stronger. I love to sing!
            You can ask me whatever you like Nothing wrong about being curious. I am curious all the time. Let’s go bungee jumping! I need someone that will go with me. Ha ha
            You are welcome. I always like talking to you. You are so sweet.

          2. A Victor says:

            Eternity, thank you for this very straightforward and uplifting comment. This one is going into my ‘Encouragement File’.

            I want to sing also but I am best only doing so in the shower, for the sake of others. But, I also have some things being discovered and it is exciting! I wish I would want to go bungee jumping but I am terrified of heights so that would be a hard no. I wish we could have coffee though! 🙂

          3. Eternity says:

            A Victor, you are very encouraging to me I appreciate it.
            Actually singing in the shower is very good as it opens up your lungs.
            I also am terrified of heights but I have learn to overcome it.
            I would love to have coffee with you that would be so nice!

          4. A Victor says:

            Your comment made me smile Eternity. I will keep singing. In the shower! <3

          5. Eternity says:

            A Victor,
            Keep singing and smiling A Victor it is good for the mind and soul. Laughing is good too! We need to be positive.

          6. A Victor says:

            Ah Eternity, laughter will not leave me again, life is too short to live it without that!

          7. Eternity says:

            Now that is the spirit A Victor. More good days ahead. Don’t let anyone put you down ever.

      2. A Victor says:

        OkeyWokey, your comment, though likely accurate, makes me very sad. I just commented earlier today about getting the support I have needed for this journey here. And also how that support has shown me what I should likely expect/experience with a future partner. Thank you for your comment, it is a good warning to remember that were area all really strangers and we would do well to remember that.

        1. FoolMe1Time says:

          Dear A V,
          Please don’t be sad! Yes we are all strangers here but I guarantee you that most of the people on here want to help. Most of us have been where you are, some more than others. You will always find someone on here that will reach out to help you if you need it. I was surprised to wake up this morning to the back and forth confrontation still going on. I thought it had been settled by HG yesterday and today we could all move on to something else?! Apparently that’s not going to happen any time soon. Try to see this as another learning experience that HG and the blog provides. Emotions run high, people’s feelings get hurt and wham! Usually HG can bring it back under control and lower the ET, apparently this time it’s not working so well.
          What I find interesting is how far this has come from the start of this thread. Can you remember ( without going back and reading) how it started? I can’t! I guess what I’m trying to say is you are safe here. When push comes to shove this is HGs blog and if he sees a need to shut something or someone down he will! One day you will find that assertiveness that you desire, I believe you will be surprised to find it had been there all along. That’s one of the best things about this special place, it gives you your voice back. Take care sweet A V. Xx

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            About where the thread began. Mmm, yeah, that might have been me!

            A truly honest and lovely comment to AV. It made me smile. Xx

          2. Another Cat says:

            Great comment, FM1T.

          3. A Victor says:

            FM1T, thank you, yes, honestly I have seriously considered leaving over some of this, but I don’t have any place else to go to do this work. And I want so badly to be healthy that I can’t just quit. What you say has been my experience, very supportive here. I don’t know histories with people and that does seem to play into some of this a lot.

            I don’t remember how it started. Just like I can’t remember how most negative things start, fights with my ex or abuse from my mother. I have just begun looking back at the fights with my ex, with new knowledge, and of the ones I can go back to, I see them very differently now. Anyway, this is not that, thank God. I feel like I am in a position to get my voice for the first time ever, it is exciting and scary at the same time. I will keep that as a goal. Thank you again.

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            You’re welcome A V.
            You should always remember if there is something on here that upsets you or causes you to feel as though you want to leave this place, simply stop reading and move on to the next post.
            There is no place out there filled with the knowledge that this place has, and there is no one else in the world like HG! Keep your eyes set on your goals sweet A V, you got this! 💞xx

          5. A Victor says:

            FM1T, yes, thank you, that is my plan going forward. It is sad to me that it helps me to read that, I do seek permission in some ways apparently. Once when I was a young mother, there was a neighbor and while he and I were chatting, a topic came up to which he replied with absolute decisiveness, “Not with my kids, no way, I’d shut that right down.” I was caught off guard and more than a little impressed by someone seeing the situation and responding in such a straightforward manner. I still struggle with this, seeing the situation and then, even when I do, responding in such a solid way, there’s always an element of hesitation, what if I’m wrong. I hope to get past that but for now, here, I do appreciate the encouragement to get on with it and not let these things upset me. Very nice chatting with you, as always FM1T. 🙂

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Hi FM1T

            Good advice. No need for anyone to miss out on all the good that benefits them on this site by staying where they feel they are affected negatively (as not everyone will be affected in this way). There are a myriad of other choices over leaving the site completely. Leaving that particular thread as you point out makes more sense.

          7. FoolMe1Time says:

            Hi NA
            Not so much good advice NA as it is logic. I have learned a lot over the years, controlling my ET and using logic is one of them, not running away because of feeling less than is another. You have helped me with both of these NA. Thank you! 💞xx

          8. Eternity says:

            FM1T, you always have such great advice to give . You were actually the first person who I interacted with on the blog a few years back. I did change my name for personal reasons ,but I just wanted to say thank you !

          9. FoolMe1Time says:

            You are quite welcome! You must have touched a place in my heart if I was the first to interact with you. I don’t know about great advice, but I do try to remember the ones that supported me when the blog first started, helping others is my way of paying it forward. 💞xx

          10. Eternity says:

            FM1T, I do like helping others move forward as well. Thanks again for all your support it will never be forgotten ❤

        2. BC30 says:

          AV, I simply must parse this:

          1. I have benefitted from the supportive quality of the site but you are correct, it is about learning much more so. For me the two have been intertwined and the learning has been improved by the support. That would not be true for all, no doubt, and I believe I am actually in the minority since many read the blog and never comment.

          A miniscule minority comment, and IMHO get a lot out of the discussion.

          2. I also own and repeatedly listen to virtually all of the things from the Knowledge Vault, trying to keep them in my mind. There is a lot to absorb.

          Rule #2 (#1 is GOSO) for me is Know Your (The) Narcissist. I stay here to keep it fresh, but I don’t need to repeatedly access the material. NO JUDGMENT, IJS

          3. I enjoy the exchanges about empaths, that has helped me at times though there are moments where I have to be very careful because my pride is injured by some of the comments. I feel like *possibly* that is the element that Oakey-Wokey was referring to in one-upmanship.

          We fascinate me. I knew I was different, but didn’t know how exactly. I am surrounded by empaths and want to know about us because we are pretty fucking awesome. I love it, but the purpose of my being here is narcissism. I am reminded not to get comfortable. While we are all sharing war stories and strategizing, why not look into ourselves?

          4. There is an underlying current that some empath schools are more desirable than others, at least from my perspective. And the fact that I have thrown mine out there makes me not okay with questioning that. I should’ve been more careful with that way back when but didn’t realize it at that time.

          FUCK THAT NOISE* every school and cadre has many facets and must be considered with the TDC and real life experiences. I’m grateful you shared openly. That is why I like to hear from all of you. Our lives inform our perspectives and manifestations of the various schools and cadres.

          *and at this point I would go to the mat for you.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            “4. There is an underlying current that some empath schools are more desirable than others, at least from my perspective”

            You are not alone in that. The issue has been raised occasionally as the perception of some and sometimes downright declared by others. What a load of horse shit.

            There are preferences of types of empaths by narcissists, but so what? To me, that equates to someone proclaiming:

            I am the best type of target/victim to be. I am the tastiest and juiciest gazelle on the savanna! Watch now bitches as that lion prepares to eat me first!

            The only reason I can think might be valid in an empath revealing their type is possibly to better understand their comments, behaviours, and reactions.

            A chart on this thread may have proven helpful haha.

          2. BC30 says:

            NA, I wasn’t thinking of that way, but yes, I agree with your observation about victimhood.

          3. A Victor says:

            NA, I agree as stated in the comment to BC30. It is exactly the comments, behaviors and reactions that are the reason I have enjoyed those conversations. Immensely helpful to my understanding of myself and also something I find fascinating. Thank you for your comment. A chart is a great idea, I am working on one as we speak! 🙂

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            BC30, NA

            Agree with you here. There are perceptions of the CoD and the SE. CoD is sometimes perceived as ‘weak’. Well, only in the event she is ensnared and only then due to an extremely giving nature. I see no problem with a giving nature until a narcissist shows up to take advantage. Few empaths are pure CoD anyway and outside of ensnarement many traits would not pose a problem.

            People occasionally highlight the higher narcissistic traits of the SE and perceive them as cold or uncaring. This is not a fair representation either from what I’ve seen on the blog. They might not be quite as snuggly but they are no less caring. As far as I can tell there are advantages and disadvantages to all the schools and cadres dependent on situation.

            In both examples you see this more on YouTube than on the blog I think. Either that or you get the narcs proclaiming themselves to be SE.

            Personally, I think people behave more as their cadres than their school in the more every day circumstances. You see cadres in action on the blog more often than schools. It might just be me but I want to be seen as TS, not as just my school or cadres, though I agree, a chart might explain behaviours seen in some threads! I am fascinated by both narcs and empaths.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            1. Unaware Mid Range Narcs often declare themselves as Super Empaths (Who Took Down a Greater) owing to their grandiosity, magical thinking and the need to assert control.
            2. Super Empaths are not cold individuals as you state.
            3. One way of looking at a CoDependent is to consider what it takes to remain sat on a bucking bronco.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            HG, RE: # 2. If Super Empaths were ‘cold’, am I correct in saying they would not be classed as Super Empaths? Some SE have ‘warmth’, others have ‘fire’ yet can wear a ‘cloak’ of ‘indifference’ – depending on the school / cadres (also their life experiences). At # 3. CoDs, does their tenacity depend on the amount of life’s experiences and the depth of the affects ie major trauma?

          7. Asp Emp says:

            TS, RE: “I want to be seen as TS, not as just my school or cadres” – a good way of saying that view a person as the individual they are, by their name and not the ‘label’ first. I had always ‘known’ that, yet I learned more about viewing people as they are as individuals and looking past the ‘label’ by being on this blog.

            I have said this before (or similar) – when I first looked into KTN blog and read ‘narcissistic psychopath’ in relation to HG, I was hesitant. Then I read some more and thought, well, ‘nothing to lose but everything to gain’ because of some of the comment reading gave me a bit of confidence and it was one of the best decisions I ever made, for myself.

            Now, it does not even come into my mind RE: the ‘labels’ of anyone on this blog. I see people’s names (and their different characteristics).

            I do remember parts of the conversation RE: YouTube – “Super Empaths” taking down the Greaters.

          8. BC30 says:

            I’m mostly Standard, and average Joe, run-of-the-mill empath, SE is only triggered as self-defense–like a turtle going into the shell. I agree, we see cadres more readily.

            Lashing out with emotion has gotten me into trouble many times, so there is that too. Anger is the biggest one. People who know me well, know it’s just how I am. I’m not angry AT them, I’m usually angry at some THING, they just have to witness it.

            I wasn’t even ensnared by the type of narcissist that “prefer” me, so thats just a generalization.

          9. A Victor says:

            Hi BC30, As you know, HG is very solid that all narcissists will be attracted to us, as empaths. But, I married the one that was of the school most attracted to me, I suspect twice, and I escaped one that would have been more attracted to me if I carried a higher Carrier element and also lots of Magnet. We didn’t mesh as well. This makes me see even more how accurate HG’s system is. And it gives me more desire to avoid all of them, no matter the type.

          10. A Victor says:

            Hi BC30, first let me say, I love the word parse, that caught me right off, in a good way! And, I’ve not seen you post such a long comment before, I was super excited to read it!

            With regard to:

            1. I agree 100%.
            2. I have to get it in before I can go to the keeping fresh stage, I am still sometimes in the “I’m mind-boggled by all of this” stage. But, your comment gives hope that the day will come when it only requires upkeep.
            3. I love the empath conversations, they have been hugely helpful in coming to know about my sense of self. I just need to keep my pride under control, it is my strongest narc trait you know!
            4. This is the part that helps me keep that pride under control. We are all awesome in our own way. Having shared early has made me feel a bit vulnerable on occasion but it doesn’t bother a lot.

            To you and NA, I have wondered about the reason anyone would be proud to be more tempting to narcs, that seems counterintuitive to the reason we’re here. But, I haven’t felt that way so much as that, apart from narcs, each school and cadre has strengths that help us in general and some of those are more coveted than others. It is this that on rare occasion has caused a pride flareup in me. But I catch myself with the thinking that I don’t have reason to convince anyone of anything, just let it go. It is an opportunity to practice my mind control.

            *thank you BC30, the feeling is mutual.

          11. Leigh says:

            4. There is an underlying current that some empath schools are more desirable than others,

            That statement is very scary. It’s like NA said, it’s like saying your the best target. Who the heck wants that?

            I find us fascinating and wanted an opportunity to learn about the different empaths as well. I shared my makeup so we can discuss how the different cadres manifests in each of us.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Yes, I like that. It would take a hell of a lot of strength to stay on the bucking bronco. Thank you HG.

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Yes I agree to looking past the labels. There’s an element of pride involved with me too. I don’t really like to fully conform. I’m not non conformist as such but I don’t generally see myself as fitting into boxes either.

            I enjoy talking about the EDC as you know. I probably wouldn’t share my TDC. I totally get why we share some of our results. The people who do talk about this have the very best of intentions too. It does help to pick out cadres when they light up and I love seeing it happen. I like learning about how others see their cadres. Some of our funniest conversations have been about this topic so I’m all for it.

            I prefer talking about cadres than school though. That said, I’ve been happily sharing about my Contagion element and admit I don’t fully understand that particular school. Due to numbers of people on various threads, I assume people forget haha so I’m ok with it. Don’t know, I just back up from it a bit. It almost falls under ‘confiding’ that might be it. Can’t explain exactly why, I just back up. I’d have to say no to putting myself on a list. I’m a weird fish.

          14. Asp Emp says:

            TS, you’re no weird fish. Good to know your view RE: labels.

            “I don’t really like to fully conform” (LOL) – I get that too 😉

            RE; EDC discussions, I understand why empaths like to talk about the results. I also understand HG’s point of view RE: us empaths discussing the results of EDCs.

            I understand the slight hesitancy on your part and it is totally acceptable RE: “It almost falls under ‘confiding’….”. Nobody needs to share anything really. It’s voluntary (with prior permission, if granted, from HG).

            RE: “Putting yourself on a list” – goes back to the view on ‘labelling’ – totally agree on this, TS. 🙂

          15. BC30 says:

            Well, that explains why every time I’ve ridden a mechanical bull, I was flung right off! 🤠 .02 seconds might be my all time best time.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, laughing…..

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It’s funny, I would never ever think to put ‘Average Joe’ and you in the same sentence!

            I know what you mean with being angry at the situation. Frustration rather than rage. Venting rather than targeting.

            Average Joe my arse! Hahahaha! Xx

          18. Chihuahuamum says:

            I like the bucking bronco analogy! Codependant isn’t as glamorous as say Super Empath. The article Tenacity comes to mind.

          19. BC30 says:

            Ah! Yes, the article Tenacity. I’ll need to re-read it.

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I am a bit of a weird fish. You haven’t seen my secret clown collection!


          21. Asp Emp says:

            TS, it is not longer a “secret” clown collection!! The whole world knows now 😉 Laughing.

          22. Joa says:

            Oh, what an interesting conversation!!!

            TS, you’re right, it’s just perception. I’m mostly CoD and I don’t feel weak at all! Highly addicted – yes, but not weak. On the contrary, I will endure a lot and will still stand upright and still smile and feel kindness.

            TS, what you wrote about schools and cadres – 100% agree. On a daily basis, we exhibit especially the characteristics of cadres, not of the school.

            AspEmp, to answer your third question, whether CoD’s persistence depends on their life experiences and experienced traumas – I think so. I feel so, but I am not a specialist.

            And not necessarily Geyser has to shed crocodile tears. I’m a 1/3 Geyser and I don’t cry (I sometimes shed a few weak tears every 10 years). But inform me, that something good has happened to you, and I will flood you with a stream of happiness and multiply your experiences, ha ha ha 🙂

            Crying irritates me, unproductive waste of time. Come to me crying and I will put you on your feet right away 🙂 And despite my brutality in this regard… they keep coming. Maybe that’s what they need.

            Chihuahuamu: “Co-dependant isn’t as glamorous as say Super Empath”. I would argue. It depends on personality traits, intelligence, curiosity and openness to the world, status.

          23. Contagious says:

            I missed something here. The only empath I know who most want to be is “ super”. Lol Now I appreciated the label as there are those outside this blog who says it does not exist and even called Empaths narcs. To me, it helped me understand my thoughts and behaviors as to narcs and beyond. I still search to understand things and remain here with the great group of Es! We may fall victim to narcs but we bring a lot to the world that narcs could not emotionally understand. I say keep the umbrella up and eyes wide open Es it’s raining narcs;)

        3. Fiddleress says:

          Hello AV,

          I wasn’t sure about adding a comment on this thread but hey, if it can keep the Aggro Index going down, why not?!

          You wrote: “honestly I have seriously considered leaving over some of this,” This is what prompts me to reply (also for new readers), if only to second what others have said already, and HG has shown evidence to support it: there are occasional heated disagreements between some (very few) commenters, but they die down very quickly. And more often than not, those commenters make up in the end, when both parties are ready to accept the peace pipe that’s handed to them by the other.
          I have been here for a year and four months (to the day, and counting, haha) and I have seen very few of those arguments. I usually try not to meddle, because I don’t like conflicts and do not weather them very well (plus I think I lack diplomacy generally speaking when faced with conflict).

          However, the number of posts those arguments make up is negligeable, and is far outweighed by the number of kind, supportive, sometimes robust but thought-provoking (and I like it) comments here. I love how much I have learnt, and I love just as much the kindness I have witnessed, and the posts that ask questions and make you ask yourself questions even when they are not all lovey-dovey supportive (don’t get me wrong, the lovey-dovey supportive comments make me melt!). They help you move forward too, so much.
          When I arrived, I was aching so badly that although at first I viewed the supporting aspect as secondary (I was here to learn and move on through HG’s work first and foremost), I was extremely moved by the support I found. Something I may not have expressed enough, so I take this opportunity to do so.

          This blog is absolutely the best place to be when you have (had) to deal with narcissists. The arguments here are nothing like those we have suffered with narcissists, because from what I can see, the persons arguing tell each other clearly (well if it is clear, you know it’s not a narc) what is getting up their noses.

          Also, precisely because I don’t like conflict, even those heated arguments I take as something to learn from and get used to: it helps me (and the distance provided by the screen is a great advantage for this) accept that nowhere, and I mean nowhere, am I going to find the kind of utopia I dused to dream of, a place where everyone would just get along. Impossible. Won’t happen. Even if you put together people who have exactly the same objective characteristics. Not anywhere, either online or in real life, as they say.
          Hey, the arguments are even helping me view the “wonderful world where everyone gets along wonderfully and only harbours wonderfully positive feelings for everyone else” that I dreamt of more like a dystopia than a utopia: I am almost certain that I would be the first to stir trouble in such a world, haha!

          In short, AV: glad you are staying, because you cannot possibly find better elsewhere. HG is absolutely unique in what he provides us with (professionalism included, as evidenced by the way he handles those disagreements), and so is narcsite as far as the interactions are concerned.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Well stated, Fiddleress.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 1.56%)

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi Fiddleress,

            Thank you for your comment. My heart is heavy right now, I know that all that you say is true, there is no utopia where all just get along. But HG has said that within a healthy relationship, the people don’t argue, about anything. They discuss, even sometimes boisterously, but they both know that it doesn’t alter their standing in the relationship and that they have equal standing. I worded some of that myself, from my understanding of what he has said. Anyway, the point I’m leading to is, if this is true, why can’t a bunch of empaths get along? That is asking too much, I do realize this also. But the key here, for me, is the ‘discuss’ rather than what can feel like ‘attack’. Most don’t do it in an attacking way, and I’m learning things about this, as to why some do.

            Also, the defensiveness that WhoCares addressed yesterday, that is something that I personally struggle with, so I must be forgiving of other empaths who do as well. It is a hard thing to shake when we feel like we must fight for every inch we get, because we had to with the narcissists. We are all entitled to our opinions, we are all entitled to state those opinions, if HG allows them, and it only stands to reason, in my mind, that we would do well to recognize that different opinions are just as valid as our own, not to criticize or put down the one who states it.

            The other thing that is hard for me are the sideways or hidden meaning comments, usually two different things. But these are difficult to address head on because the person who stated them hasn’t been straightforward in their approach. So if you state what it appears, there is plenty of room for backlash that you got the meaning wrong. It is similar to cognitive dissonance, it makes me question what is real and what is not, my sense of it or the person’s words. Like it was with my ex. Or my mother. Maybe at some point I will learn how to handle those types of situations.

            The making up part that you speak of is difficult for me, every time one of these situations happens, it alters my view of the people involved, they no longer are safe for me. I haven’t been able to figure out how to not allow that, or how to forget and leave it there. hThis is a good reason to sort this out.

            Thank you for sharing the observation that in your year and four months you have seen very little of this. In the 8 plus months that I’ve been here this is also my observation, it is easy to forget this after a couple of weeks like the past two. Thank you for the reminder.

            nIn the relationships I have/had with narcs, there was peace, at times and of sorts. But it was at a heavy cost to me, not to them.

            Thank you for the comment, much to consider.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            AV, I can understand why you have a heavy heart, though I am sorry to hear it.
            I think HG says that in a healthy relationship, you can have bad arguments alright, but the parties involved will recognise at some point that they’ve gone too far and discuss things and make peace. But I would say the important word here is relationship – between persons who have chosen to have that relationship.
            The relationships we form here are not the same, not what we would have in real life, and we have not chosen the people we are with either. So some people will get along (as much as you can online, and it is public), and others won’t; you can’t get along with everyone you are surrounded with in real life either.
            Now for the put-downs and harsh words that you have witnessed, I agree that it can feel unsafe to be around those who have issued them, and that your perception of them can change. The best is not to interact with them, and quite soon you’ll probably forget about their presence. Although it could be down to that empath (if they are one) going through a hard time, because we are not in other people’s heads and we don’t know what they are going through. You can only see over time if the behaviour that you saw repeats itself or not (as I am writing this, I cannot for the life of me remember how it all started, but I won’t go back to check!).
            Also, I am quite certain that if the people involved had been face to face and not speaking in front of all of us, it would never have turned out like this, because they would have had the person in front of them, made of flesh and blood, they could have seen their eyes, would have heard the tone of voice, they could have spoken directly, reacted physically or with words immediately to what they were hearing, instead of writing unilaterally.
            I am a great believer in direct, physical in-person interactions (or at the very least, over the telephone). I do not communicate with others on social media (only here), use text messages only for very basic, practical matters (when no narc is in my life!), and generally resent the ever presence of screens that’s been forced upon us in our lives now. Yes, I am a dinosaur. And in spite of all of this, all of the above, I am here because I owe so much to this place. And nothing like this exists in real life, unfortunately (but HG would not be there, so no point!).
            I hope that this message will help you a little. I can really understand what you are saying. But I will add one more thing which played a huge rôle in me getting better : the humour here, HG’s humour and the incredible laughs you can have with others, or just reading their hilarious comments ; and this happens much, much more often than nasty exchanges.
            All the best to you AV, stay strong and around the people here who will make you feel safe xx

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Fiddleress, such an inspiring comment, it was so good to read. Thank you so much for sharing it. I have to say RE; the part about humour – absolutely.

          5. Fiddleress says:

            Aww Asp Emp, thank you! Lovely of you to say so.
            Yes, the humour – I’ve always loved British humour, and I enjoy the darkness I can see in American humour too!

          6. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, yes, I think you are correct about the relationship aspect, we are not in one with people here as we would be in ‘real life’. Thank you for reminding me! Lol, I don’t interact with a lot of people and especially at the levels I do here so I can forget! And thank you for the advice on how to proceed, that is helpful. I agree that in real life things would have been different, we do lose a lot being faceless typed words! Text is my preferred method of communication if I can’t be in person with someone. And it’s used primarily for fact exchanges, setting up meeting or passing a piece of information we know would interest the other etc. Face to face and one to one is my preferred to actually talk though small groups where I know everyone can be fun for games and such. Large groups where I blend in are fine too. Anyway, I digress. You are correct about patterns over time also, another thing I need to practice as in the past I would walk away from people rather than allow for this. Except for the romantic narcs, they were granted way way too much leeway. I have yet to figure this out, it must be the addiction. And a huge yes to the humor! That is by far the more prevalent and also super fun. It really does help with a dark subject. Thank you for this conversation, it has really helped me process all of this and I have learned a lot.

          7. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, after having several hours to process this and read many of the comments on other threads, you are absolutely right. This is very minimal and it should not be such an upsetting thing. Thank you again.

          8. Fiddleress says:

            AV, I have just seen your addition, but I replied to your previous message. I just wanted to say that your questioning sounds to me like an existential questioning – some might say spiritual. If it is true, I totally get it. You are not alone. XX

          9. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, I’m not sure which questions you are referring to but i would be interested in knowing, your comment has made me curious. If you care to spend the time expanding, if not, I understand.

          10. Fiddleress says:

            AV, I was referring to you asking yourself questions such as “why can’t we just get along?”. I may be wrong, but I saw it as ultimately asking yourself (because that is something I have experienced): “How do I go about life/relating to people?” I have often thought to myself that I had a hard time deciphering this world, that I wished I’d been born with an instructions manual, haha! You also refered to asking yourself (in the past) what you were doing on this planet. To me, it seems linked. Hence my calling it existential.
            (I hope this makes sense.)

          11. A Victor says:

            Fiddleress, yes, it makes perfect sense! You really connected the dots on those, I am impressed! Also surprised to be so obvious, lol! Yes, my life, my worldview, is about the big picture, details are more difficult for me, until I get the big picture anyway. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will think of these from that perspective. I also think it ties to my head in the clouds, fairytale way of functioning, which is a fine line because I want the ET to go down but I don’t want to lose who I am and I am not sure where the line is. I am actually quite analytical, with my head in the clouds, also, so there is that, maybe I can compound on it there. Thank you for explaining! Good food for thought.

          12. Fiddleress says:

            AV, call me Sherlock, haha (Ah, I wish…).
            I never thought you were obvious, and I am sorry if you have felt “exposed” in any way; it takes one to know one, so as I thought I could see my own outlook and questioning there, I wrote my reply.
            I think understand this too: ” I also think it ties to my head in the clouds, fairytale way of functioning, which is a fine line because I want the ET to go down but I don’t want to lose who I am and I am not sure where the line is.” I will reply later, sorry I have to run now, but I will !

      3. Asp Emp says:

        OW, well said. Thank you.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Yeah. I jumped back in here for a day but I’m gonna jump back out.
          After reading this massive 1000 or so comment attack thread, while somewhat amused, I felt poisoned.

          How familiar.

          You really can’t see it until you go NC for a good long while.
          Then you realize what you were doing and what the ambient environment was.

          Nightmares & Dreams feel different but you’re asleep in both.

          I wish you, and all the survivors & warriors, *clarity* & happy fulfilling lives . Life can be Hell, but we’re strong.

          Thanks to HG for my initial bubble pop.

          1. Kiki says:

            Hi WokeAF

            That is a bit harsh .
            I’m presuming you are far along in your journey now as you were here when I started .
            Remember there are newbies here who have no one to turn too and probably don’t even realise what’s happening to them .
            If you’ve outgrown this blog fair play to you , you are healed from your Narc most likely but not everyone is that far ahead .


          2. Asp Emp says:

            WA, I understand. Thank you for your well wishes. I hope all remains ok with you and improves x

          3. Violetta says:


            Good point, and I suspect I will always be somewhat susceptible to narcs, so I need frequent Narcsite booster shots.

      4. Another Cat says:


        And No.
        If you address Lickemtomorrow or Leigh, or Fox, then it is Always a support forum.

        1. Leigh says:

          AC, 100% Accurate. Indeed, it is Always a support forum for me. Everyone that I interact with has always been supportive. I would be lost without it.

          1. Another Cat says:

            Yes I think you and LET and Fox have been supportive to helpseekers in all of your comments so far on Narcsite.

          2. A Victor says:

            And many others have been supportive as well, everyone that I have interacted with has been.

          3. Leigh says:

            Thank you AC!

          4. Another Cat says:

            What I was commenting on was Woke’s statement that this is a showing off forum not a support forum. I gave a few example of people who I’ve never seen showing off.

            Woke, you need to attend more 🙂 and observe.

          5. A Victor says:

            AC, thank you for clarifying, yes, that makes perfect sense. I have been impressed by your ability to cut to the chase and say things directly and wisely. You and Eternity are now my heroes. 🙂

          6. JB says:

            I have found everyone really supportive on here too. Not to take away from anyone else’s feelings, as everyone’s experience is different, but I just wanted to add my view for balance.

        2. lickemtomorrow says:

          AC <3

          Thank you for your very kind and complimentary comment xox

          I accept it with the utmost appreciation.

          Now to address what you have said, amongst other things.

          This thread is probably the most challenging I've experienced since landing here. Nearly 600 comments, and a lot of angst, including my own. I rarely express a negative comment, as generally I don't feel the need, but on this occasion I found it necessary. I could see people getting hurt and being exposed to what I could only term as abuse from another commenter. I have not changed my opinion about that, and HGs further intervention in the circumstances and the ongoing nature of this thread only affirms me in my initial reaction. Which is one of the reasons I stepped back. I've learned not to feed the troll.

          In terms of this being a support forum, I agree. As in, for the most part, the empaths here do support eachother and HG supports our ability to do that. I for one appreciate it, and I'm sure many others do, too 🙂 I also agree we are here to learn about narcissism. NA made a comment which seemed to cover all the bases on how people approach and experience the forum. And each has their own reasons for doing that. HG makes room for us all in that sense, I think. I am grateful for his work, how that impacts me and my understanding, also for the other empaths here who are so willing to share their stories and their struggles, sorrows and triumphs. It's all been encouraging and beneficial to me. And I'm not sure you could have one without the other, or it would be as effective.

          I saw HG made a comment about not being the one to provide support, at least in the manner empaths provide support to one another, but he does give us the option to do that and I'm not going to pass it up if it's on offer. No one should feel guilty in either seeking or offering support. Maybe just keep the baked alaska recipes to yourself 😉

          So, that's about support. I'm all for it.

          I'm also about educating myself. And it's only very recently my understanding around the issue of eroded empathy is becoming more apparent to me. I feel there is an element of discernment that needs to take place around that when it comes to interactions with others, especially here. It's a huge issue where the trauma surrounding narcissistic relationships is concerned. I won't say anymore as my awareness is only being raised more thoroughly, but I sense an element of that on this thread as well.

          As to the absolute trauma experienced by some, and WOKE AF in particular, my heart goes out to you and "may the odds be ever in your favour" <3 Sincerely x

          1. Another Cat says:

            Yes, I think both entertainment, action and support are very much needed when we come to HG.

            My comment earlier wasn’t so much normativa, it was descriptive, answering claims about ppl here not being supportive, but rather show-off parader, and my Saviour trait immediately awoke, just mentioning a couple of you, who are positively supportive. To contradict the claim.

            Analogy: Sometimes I read expressions like “Why are we Christians so mean to eachother”

            I don’t like blanket statements where ppl forget the kind empathic helpful members of a group, any group, really.

            So this was more a trait instinct from me, than anything against, WokeAF, whom I’ve missed here.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AC, I was impacted by that part of the comment as well, and I think some others have responded similarly. It seemed to come a little out of left field, but I think a combination of a return after a long and traumatic absence and walking into this thread likely prompted the response. And I’m glad you and others stepped in to contradict the claim. Simply because my experience has not been the one described and any newcomers may be taken aback and decide not to join in.

            Quite right on the blanket statements, especially if they are unfounded (which most of the time they are as blanket statements).

            I love seeing other empaths traits shine, and way to go in that sense! They are there for a purpose and can serve us well.

            WokeAF came in like a bit of a stormtrooper there, but going by the very personal story she shared, I’m guessing she has been in stormtrooper mode for some time. Maybe recognizing or dealing with different priorities and finding the focus here out of sync with what she has just been through. I wouldn’t blame her. I can’t imagine going through the same thing and ever returning to normal, or not for a very long time. Just the description of riding into Hell made me realize how devastating and challenging that experience must have been. I’d imagine it’s the type you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. Some of us may understand that, but in a different context.

            I’m reminded of a Taylor Swift song which really resonated with me late last year (Epiphany) which has a line:

            “And some things you just can’t speak about … ”

            Some experiences in life are unspeakable.

            I hope WokeAF is OK x

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LET, such an understanding and inspiring comment. Thank you for sharing it.

            ““And some things you just can’t speak about … ”. Some experiences in life are unspeakable” – exactly. In saying that, it has become easier for me to do so on this blog, as time has gone by – reduced ET / increased LT being the reason for the ease of talking about it. Yet there may be a couple of things that remain “unspeakable”, as long an individual does not let this be a ‘hindrance’ to looking at the better areas of their life, which can now be finally understood, accepted (or not).

            Yes, I too, hope WokeAF is ok.

          4. Bubbles says:

            Dearest lickemtomorrow,
            I too, have had many mixed emotions on this thread and the effect it’s had on us.
            I felt like waving a white flag, messaging Mr Tudor, not reading any more comments or not commenting further, however, I thought, is it not all about us grasping challenges n dealing with our emotions, provoked or unprovoked ?
            But then, I saw it as empaths expressing themselves as individuals and to me thats a good positive trait

            I have often in my life, expressed my views n thoughts and argued the point at every conceivable angle…. even if just gave me personal satisfaction or my own justification of believing in myself or proving to myself I want to be right or even found to be wrong (that sucks) ……sometimes only just to have a voice and be heard ….dealing with a narc has given me more strength to vocalise
            Needless to say I did not make the debating team haha
            I’m a tad neuron aged deprived to engage with you bright, articulated n lovely sparks, plus I’d get sidetracked by shiny objects and more than likely stray off the topic (a trait I’ve definitely learnt about myself) haha

            How boring it would be if all continually agreed and lived in a perfect world …it’s not humanly possible …..one could simply find peace serenity n harmony in a Japanese garden.. not here haha
            I’m learning muchos here, whether be it right or wrong perceptions, indifferences or even clashes of personalities
            There is always interesting learning and valuable information to be had from both sides
            Whether it be negative or positive, I feel we have all gained and not lost by any stretch of the imagination …. reality checks are what we desperately need I feel
            I personally respect n admire each individuals characteristics n opinions and by no means think less of anyone here, in fact the opposite
            Agreeing to disagree always wins the order of the day and respect is maintained on all accounts. We must continue to move ‘forward’ in order to break through our own individual barriers, sadly for some, it’s just too much to bear
            Luckily for us, we have a Master Commander at the helm who admirably steers us safely back on course
            I always have popcorn on stand by 🍿… just in case 😉
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Bubbles <3

            I love the ship reference. We're all taking to the life rafts 😛 Just kidding, but I was talking about bringing ships to a safe harbour earlier x Anyway, we accept that will hopefully always be Mr Tudor's intention on the blog, and I see he has steadied the ship for now.

            I appreciate your well intended thoughts and feelings. Striking middle ground is something to aspire to for the most part, and I don't disagree. There is always more than one side to an argument or discussion, and it is good to get a variety of perspectives. As a reasonable person, I have no objection to that and it's a good reminder.

            What I struggle with, and ultimately don't accept, is abusive comments, whether directed at me or anybody else. Nor do I believe them to be in any way beneficial to individuals here on the blog. We may have read certain comments differently with regard to disagreement and abuse, as in some of us may perceive these things differently.

            I will accept that is the case, as you have so graciously shared your point of view with me again, and I respect that.

            If there is any further need for popcorn, I'll know where to go <3 xox

            (PS: you know I love your emojis!)

          6. A Victor says:

            LET, the very young picture of yourself and your wisdom is giving me a bit of cognitive dissonance. Haha! Thank you for sharing your insights here, as always great thoughts and much to learn from. Not knowing WokeAF but seeing the warm reception by many and then the apparent attack, I was really sent spinning. Your comments regarding eroded emotional empathy help bring this into some sort of sense. I appreciate it much.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, apologies for the cognitive dissonance 😛

            I think I’m giving myself cognitive dissonance!

            I’m glad my comments help bring that experience into perspective. I think we were all taken a little by surprise, and possibly didn’t know how to interpret that.

            There is a dividing line for me when it comes to the erosion of emotional empathy and what I would term abuse.

            Lashing out due to trauma = erosion of emotional empathy.

            Lashing out to cause trauma = abuse.

            When I mentioned discernment earlier, it was in relation to determining this dividing line, and being able to tell the difference, between the two.

            It’s something I don’t take lightly, especially when it comes to individuals who have already been traumatized. Including myself.

            Having said that, now I’m off to see what other avi’s I can find to suit my mood today <3 xox

          8. A Victor says:

            LET, no apology necessary, it was nice to see young you! I love the new avi also, pink is my favorite and also cherry blossoms. When I was quite young my dream was to go to DC when the cherry trees were in bloom. So a year or two later it was very exciting to move close to DC for what ended up being three years. We went to DC many times but I have no memory of seeing those trees in bloom, thank you narc parents, another promise broken. I will have to go again. Or perhaps your avi is apple blossoms, equally as lovely.

            Thank you for sharing your dividing line, it makes very good sense.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for the compliment on my new avi, AV 🙂 They are cherry blossoms, and they are my favourite, too <3 I would love to see them in Washington, and I have been, but during the summer and not the spring. It was lovely and incredible to visit, and I would definitely go again, so I hope you get the chance, too, when the blossoms are in bloom this time xox

          10. A Victor says:

            LET, I hope we both can get there to see them sometime, or Japan! Wouldn’t that be fun!

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Japan would be amazing!

            I’ve told my children to plant a cherry blossom tree over my grave when I die <3

          12. A Victor says:

            What a great idea! I’m going to do that too!! Thanks for that!

          13. Bubbles says:

            Dearest lickemtomorrow,
            My sentiments exactly, abusive comments aren’t necessary or warranted
            What it demonstrates is frustration n anger = extremely elevated emotions
            Anything ‘intentional’ is meant to cause hurt n pain ….. this gives me reason to believe there are hidden agendas and makes me question “what are they”?
            This blog is about taking control of our emotions
            Rules of engagement …… DON’T …… especially if it causes harm in any way
            I try to keep these in mind for myself …..
            Is it true ?
            Is it necessary ?
            Is it kind ?
            I believe apologises have been extended and ‘hopefully’ lessons learnt
            Always a pleasure lickemtomorrow 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Bubbles,

            We agree again – “abusive comments aren’t necessary or warranted”

            This is where we may differ – “What it demonstrates is frustration and anger = heightened emotions”

            In some people yes. In others, what it demonstrates is a sense of entitlement.

            That is my dividing line.

            The way I see it, part of HGs aim is to advise empaths and teach them how to reign in their emotional thinking. The main purpose is to teach them about narcissism.

            The rules of engagement you keep in mind are good ones to hold to, although kindness is qualified by truth for me, where truth becomes the necessary kindness.

            And in all honesty, some apologies are not worth the paper they are written on.

            I appreciate your further input, and value again what you have shared xox

          15. Bubbles says:

            Dearest lickemtomorrow,
            We’re both on the same side lickem. I totally concur with what you’re saying regarding a ‘sense of entitlement’ and ‘apologies’.
            I myself, have learnt to err very much on the on the side of caution n diplomacy.
            How am I doin so far ??? Haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            Bubbles <3

            We are on the same side! Thanks for reminding me x

            And you're doing great! xox

            Erring on the side of caution makes sense, especially in terms of diplomacy. I do it often, but maybe it doesn't look that way 😛

            It goes out the window sometimes if I feel particularly passionate about something.

            Mustn't let the narcissist know 😉

      5. WiserNow says:

        Hi WokeAF,

        Welcome back to the blog. It’s been a while. Back when you were here more often, you and I didn’t interact much.

        I see you have decided to step up to the plate, put your boxing gloves on, and take a swipe. Your choice.

        Why you choose to do that, I’m not sure. You obviously have an issue with me in some way. That’s up to you and has nothing to do with me. What you think of me is your business.

        The main reason I’m here on the blog is to learn and to understand. I’m not here to present my RL story in order to gather support and camaraderie. I don’t measure people’s circumstances in order to see who has it better or worse. That’s your projection here. Again, your perception of that has nothing to do with me.

        I’m not sure why you want to eat me for breakfast. What does that even mean? Again, your perception.

        My comment to Eternity wasn’t about you. It was a general comment and it was about narcissists and my thoughts about them *in general*. It was also positive in regard to HG and HG’s information.

        This will be my one and only reply to you in this ‘conversation’. Honestly, I don’t want to waste my time and energy on it.

        So, you can shuffle off back to the ‘Tudor gang’ and take your boxing gloves with you. There, you and all the gang members can slap yourselves on the back and keep bantering about how entertaining all of this is. You can also congratulate yourselves on how hard you have it and proceed to gang up on people in such an evidently ’empathic’ way. I’m sure HG will ‘approve’ and allow it.

        I wish you well WokeAF and good luck with your RL circumstances.

        1. Kiki says:

          Wiser now

          Just an observation but you seem to really on the defense here lately .😳


        2. OkeyWokey says:

          WN absolutely no reference to you in my mind whatsoever .
          I am not sure I even read your comment you think I’m addressing , I will scroll up.

          I have no beef w any one particular person here .

          My comment was what I can see going in here now that the spell broke,nothing more

          There’s much support and comraderie to be had here, as I said it’s a gamble – and all good fun from a unattached mindset, as well as a step in Narc education.

      6. Kiki says:

        Hmmmm OkeyWokey

        I’ve been here a few years don’t post much to be honest but whenever I do I have found several of the members here extremely supportive and understanding.
        I won’t name names but they are a ray of light and give the time and energy to reply with kindness.
        I only once had a spat here and that had to do with politics, so I don’t go there as it was partly my fault as perspectives can be heated and politics really has nothing to do with my recovery.
        What’s the old saying keep politics and religion out of the dinner party chat.
        It’s true .

        I personally do not like discussions where we delve into what kind of Empath we are etc .So I just avoid those .
        I think if you come poking and prodding and looking for an argument then you will get it , just like in the real world .


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well stated.

        2. OkeyWokey says:

          I guess everyone somehow MISSED the 1000 comment catfight I was commenting on lol

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Alongside the 388 000 comments without any catfights.

      7. WhoCares says:

        “If you present your RL story you might get an ounce of support and comradery as I have.”

        I’ve had plenty more than an ounce of support and comradery here. And unless you have identified actual empaths (in your real life) who have undergone similar circumstances AND apply HG’s; those real life friends do not truly get it.
        No one *gets it* like many of the educated empaths here. For that, I am extremely grateful. And I am sure many an isolated empath (disengaged or escaped – or still ensared!) have been grateful for this place when there really isn’t anyone they can turn to in their day to day life.
        To disparage the environment here, based on a handful of conflictual situations, isn’t based on objectivity or a fair appraisal of the blog interactions.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you WC.

          (The Aggro Index stands at 2.43%)

          1. WhoCares says:

            I felt the need to speak up.
            Not everyone’s experiences here are the same.

            And, sorry, maybe this is a dumb question but what is the “Aggro Index”? Google is not my friend this morning…still mystified.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It has been alleged that this is a hostile environment. It is not. The evidence demonstrates that. The Aggro Index shows the percentage of argumentative, aggressive, insulting and labelling comments compared to the number of comments on the blog that I have moderated since the index came into existence i.e. today. It is a demonstration of evidence to provide context.

          3. WhoCares says:

            Ohhh. Thank-you HG. I am all for the evidence as well.

            Something else I have witnessed, in part, as a consequence of learning on this blog, is that two empaths interacting, who are entrenched in their views, can actually be more conflictual than an empath and a narcissist interacting…since a narcissist will only do what’s necessary to achieve control, but empaths have… tenacity.

          4. A Victor says:

            How do we know the difference??? I am so confused!!!

          5. WhoCares says:


            I remember, earlier on when I first started reading, witnessing a couple of isolated heated discussions and wondering myself. I was confused too. It can be hard to judge character online. However, as HG’s has repeatedly said, it is about an aggregate of behaviours over time. Back then, at the beginning, I took it upon myself to observe and look up past discussions or even the “Letter to the Narcissist” series to learn more about individuals commenting here – and I made my own determination.
            Many of the commenters in this thread have been here for years, and you can just tell that they are empaths – they might have had history with some other commenters and a negative experience that creeps back into discussions, but they are still empaths.
            One thing I find interesting, is many empaths go on the defense of “I am not the person you are suggesting I am” – which, considering that most empaths have been subjected to various and repeated accusations by the narcissists in their lives, this defensive position is not surprising.

            Personally, I am over this for the most part. I think it comes as a consequence as having endured a long time ensnarement and being accused of being someone that I am not. And on top of that I have endured a long court battle, during which I again have had to defend my position as to what kind of person I am and what kind of parent I am. I am wearied by it, very wearied. At this point, I am like, if that’s who you think I am – you aren’t worth the breath defending myself to. If you can’t look closer and make up your own mind: you aren’t worth my time and energy.
            So when I see empaths here going on the defense after feeling that they are subjected to repeated accusations or misrepresentations, I am like: let it go. Let it go.
            Your actions over time demonstrate who you are, and those that care to see, will see it.
            AV, I am no longer all about telling people who you are (or who I am). I am about *showing* people who I am. Show them.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Precisely, it is about examining the evidence something I repeatedly encourage people to do with regard to the many situations which I advise on.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 4.1%)

          7. A Victor says:

            Thank you WhoCares, this is very good. It goes along with how I “defended” myself against the smearing my ex did. I didn’t. After time, people could see the truth and if some never did, they don’t matter to me. Thank you, this comment is very helpful.

          8. Leigh says:

            AV, for me, I don’t worry about the difference. This is where my black and white thinking comes in. If the conflict starts to turn mean or if I feel uncomfortable, I’ll stop interacting.

          9. A Victor says:

            Yes, that makes sense. I want to know the difference because I want to get away from narcissists but not necessarily empaths. I am going to share something, you are the perfect person for this!! I had a conversation with my boss this morning and he actually totally gets it!! He worked for a narcissist for 17 years and started his own business as a result! I was so shocked, he said straight up to me that I am in a safe place! It was such a great conversation, I couldn’t believe it. Anyway, I have been bursting to share that since but this blog is going crazy at the moment! Lol! So, do I do my job or catch up on comments???

          10. Leigh says:

            I think the more you are here, the more you will be able to spot the difference. It will start to come naturally.

            I’m glad that your boss understands. Its so important to have people in your network that get it. It can be frustrating when they don’t.

            Its probably best to do your job, you don’t want your understanding boss to become less understanding, lol.

          11. A Victor says:

            Haha, yes. Thanks.

          12. WhoCares says:

            *Tenacity in maintaining their viewpoint.

          13. WiserNow says:

            I said it *can* be a hostile environment. That doesn’t mean it is always so.

          14. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor says, “It has been alleged that this is a hostile environment.” I wonder if its the commenters who are causing the hostility that are alleging its a hostile environment.

            I feel the need to speak up too. If you feel its hostile, then stay away from the hostility. Its only hostile if you interact with those who are hostile.

            This blog IS a safe environment. I find it extremely helpful and supportive. Its my one place where I find solace. Thank you, Mr. Tudor.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Your opening paragraph is correct and the balance of your comment is well stated.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 3.29%)

          16. A Victor says:

            Why did it go up? What is happening???

          17. HG Tudor says:

            A comment was made which increased the percentage (it does not necessarily mean it is the comment where the Aggro Index appears)

          18. A Victor says:

            Okay, thank you.

          19. alexissmith2016 says:

            Here is the least hostile place ever!

          20. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed. If people think this place can be hostile, they really do not know what hostile is.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 3.7%)

          21. alexissmith2016 says:

            Even though you are an NP HG, you handle matters with professionalism at all times. When there is good governance, there are well behaved people. It’s all about who is at the top.

          22. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you AS2016, the evidence speaks for itself.

          23. Truthseeker6157 says:

            I fully agree with this comment from Who Cares. I have been commenting on the blog for over a year and my experience has been extremely positive. The empaths here have offered unwavering support to me at a time when I was at a very low ebb. They continue to do so.

            The people I have interacted regularly with, and there are a fair few of them, have offered differing views, differing ways of looking at things, some of which I agree with, some less so. All of these views shared a commonality though, they were honestly put forward with the best of intentions and they were interpreted and welcomed by me as such.

            I am not of the opinion that there are numerous narcissists circulating on the blog. Some commenters will be unknowns but on the whole, it is my view that this is a safe environment to discuss and recover. In terms of forums there will be no safer forum on the internet.

            I have had only one interaction on the blog that I deemed as being wholly negative. One in a full year of consistent commenting. I chose not to interact further with that individual and will maintain that approach going forward. We do have the choice to not interact. This doesn’t mean I view the individual as a narcissist. It simply means I see no benefit to be gained from interacting with them further.

            I have debated, I have offered opposing opinions to those of some very long standing Narcsite commenters. Notably on the ‘Dark Cupid’ thread and on the ‘This Mindset Equals Victory’ thread. Commenters holding opposing views to mine treated me respectfully and my views were considered and validated for being my own views. Interestingly on the latter thread I spoke up in direct opposition to HG himself. Similarly, my views were posted exactly as written and HG did not use his influence and knowledge to counter or invalidate my position. Narcissist he may be, but from personal experience I cannot fault his deportment on the blog. His role is not supposed to be a paternalistic one. His role in my view is to educate and facilitate debate in a constructive manner.

            It concerns me that newer readers will be ‘put off’ by a couple of recent threads. Please don’t be. Comment, debate, speak freely, do what is necessary to further your own recovery. Between the quality and accuracy of the information available, and the kindness and support offered by empathic commenters here, there is no better place to overcome the difficulties we have experienced in the past and to protect ourselves from future narcissistic influence.

            This thread in my view, is not representative of the numerous threads I have taken part in on the Narcsite blog.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            Balanced observations, thank you TS6157.

          25. BC30 says:

            “Indeed. If people think this place can be hostile, they really do not know what hostile is.” <<< THIS

          26. HG Tudor says:


          27. BC30 says:

            This is not a question, it’s an observation. My first thought was “We need to define these terms.” “argumentative, aggressive, insulting and labelling” and how is the Aggro Index calculated, it is subjective, yes, but how does it come to be a percentage?

            At less than 4% it’s a tiny amount. It prompted me to go back and look at some old posts.

          28. HG Tudor says:

            1. Argumentative, aggressive, insulting and labelling behaviours in a comment are behaviours which most people are capable of understanding. Your comment BC30 is not one captured by those terms.
            2. The index is calculated by taking the number of comments which contain the aforementioned behaviours and then dividing them by the number of posts moderated in total today (there is not a chance that I am going back through 391 035 comments to apply it retrospectively) then multiplied by 100 to get a percentage.
            3. Yes, it is a tiny amount which rather demonstrates the point.

          29. fox says:

            I honestly would prefer stay out of such discussions, but I think generally speaking, if you are feeling hostility in this space, it is important to reflect on why that might be. I often only peek in at the threads here, but I see so many kind and supportive people here, and HG himself always keeps himself in check even when people are attempting to press his buttons, even though he could be brutal if he wanted to.
            As they say where I am from, “Don’t start none, won’t be none”.

          30. HG Tudor says:

            Fair comment.

          31. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You’re welcome. It’s important to me that new arrivals receive the information and support they need to recover, just as I did. This is the best place for that.

        2. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          Contrary to the fact that I never intervened before about these subjects, I know I can talk to you: personally I have a major trust issue, that’s why I have never told anyone anything about myself: no letter to the narcissist, no letter to my younger self, and not to any commenter in person, there are a few people I trust here, you of course, and you can fill in some names undoubtedly, you will immediately recognise my style when I am suspicious, which is almost always!

          That said: the title of this place is not: “Come here together and let’s help each other”, or, “Recover from narcissistic abuse”, some people seem to totally miss the title of this blog.
          For me this is a University in the first place.
          I take notes. I take this very seriously, summarise things, learn things by heart, etc,…
          I have bought everything from the Knowledge Vault (literally), and play it on and on and on.
          There are packages where I literally know when a pause will fall, when Mr Tudor will misspeak, will cough, etc…

          This was never a place of distraction for me.

          The fact that people support each other when in shit and in need of a kind word, that is a fantastic side product (forgive me if wrong word, not native speaker), but that was never what this place was created for. At least that is not what I am searching here.

          I would not mind if it was more about narcissism instead of empaths!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            “Mr Tudor will misspeak” what fresh heresy is this?!!

            A differing and valid perspective, thank you for sharing it Z.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 3.9%)

          2. WhoCares says:

            Hi Z!

            “the title of this place is not: “Come here together and let’s help each other”

            I get that. Although, personally, I have felt helped here.

            “For me this is a University in the first place.
            I take notes. I take this very seriously, summarise things, learn things by heart, etc,…”

            I totally get this also. I am on a different journey here, now, as you appear to be. This is partly why I no longer comment regularly on the main blog; but I greatly appreciated the support and fellowship it provided when it served a different need for me. The support and laughs I have experienced here cannot be duplicated anywhere else. I still comment when I feel like it might help or where I still feel the need to commiserate.

            But now the connection I have is more through the shared love of the pursuit of learning that has arisen out of KHG and the discussions there. Even though the forum is a bit slow at the moment.

            ‘I have bought everything from the Knowledge Vault (literally), and play it on and on and on.
            There are packages where I literally know when a pause will fall, when Mr Tudor will misspeak, will cough, etc…”

            Haha..I know what you mean; for some recordings that I have revisited many times, it is similar for me.

          3. WhoCares says:

            ““Mr Tudor will misspeak” what fresh heresy is this?!!”

            Haha. There are some recordings where I know exactly when you are going rub your stubble…or where your chair is going to squeak, HG.

            It stands out. It makes you more human.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            They’re just sound effects I add in. I’m just an evil mind floating in special brain fluid controlling the world from a hollowed our volcano super villain lair.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            WC, that made me giggle.

          6. A Victor says:

            Z – zwartbolleke, thank you for sharing this. I have wondered about you, figured your history might be somewhere way back in the blog but have not read enough to know about that. I have appreciated the input you have made over the time I have been here and also this comment. I have benefitted from the supportive quality of the site but you are correct, it is about learning much more so. For me the two have been intertwined and the learning has been improved by the support. That would not be true for all, no doubt, and I believe I am actually in the minority since many read the blog and never comment. I also own and repeatedly listen to virtually all of the things from the Knowledge Vault, trying to keep them in my mind. There is a lot to absorb. I enjoy the exchanges about empaths, that has helped me at times though there are moments where I have to be very careful because my pride is injured by some of the comments. I feel like *possibly* that is the element that Oakey-Wokey was referring to in one-upmanship. There is an underlying current that some empath schools are more desirable than others, at least from my perspective. And the fact that I have thrown mine out there makes me not okay with questioning that. I should’ve been more careful with that way back when but didn’t realize it at that time. But, the overall has been beneficial to my learning even with these small things in the mix. All of that to say, I really am glad you spoke into this with your thoughts. AV

          7. NarcAngel says:


            Excellent comment. I have pondered many of your points myself.

            The title is Knowing the Narcissist, although I find it to have evolved to having a lot more focus on the empaths (by the empaths) over time. That is not to say that it’s good or bad but merely an observation.

            A question I have asked myself lately is: HG created a blog. Who and when was it decided that it’s chief purpose was as a support forum?

            And….we’re back to definitions and perspectives. As the majority if the visitors do not comment, I take it that most people use it as a place of learning. For some it is a blog – a community of people with a shared general interest and a place to exchange opinions and ideas. For others it is a place for validation and support. People decide what it is for them personally and there might be a number of people who share that opinion, but that does not make it so for any one group.

            I view it as being a place for ALL of these things amongst others (lets not forget humour, and the beautiful writing for example).

            I find the comment section to have become more of an atmosphere of coffee club between friends than discussion about narcissism, but I also understand that people arrive here in different states and with different needs. My feeling is that they should be able to be presented with different perspectives, take what they need, and leave the rest. There is room for everyone.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed NA, this place does not have the chief purpose of a support forum. It is a blog which explains to you about me, narcissism, the dynamic between the narcissist and their victims, who those victims are, what those victims can do and provides an encyclopaedic resource to understand “all things narc”. I allow people in the comments to be supportive to one another (after all I am not going to do that) to add to the integrity of the blog as a place of learning, knowledge and discussion. There are times where the supportive element spills over into the “coffee club” aspect which I tolerate but it is not the primary or secondary purpose of this place. That is why I “prune” certain discussions by telling people that that is enough of that topic. I appreciate people feel comfortable in having some off topic discussion and I also recognise that levity aids people also given the subject matter, however, it is a blog about narcissism and in certain instances that will be reinforced.

            You are correct that the majority of people use it as a place of learning, feeling no need to comment.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 2.89%)

          9. Leigh says:

            For me, Mr. Tudor’s blog has been different things at different times of my healing process..

            At first it was to learn and make me aware of narcissism. When I first arrived, learning about narcissism was my first and only priority. I barely commented. As I learned, I realized how deeply I was ensnared. I had no one to turn to except the empaths here. So Mr. Tudor’s blog ended up morphing into a safe haven and support forum for me. I also thought commenting about my circumstances would show other targets that they aren’t alone. Once I’m free from the narcissists in my life and further along in the healing process, hopefully I won’t need the support as much and I can help others.

            I do agree, that first and foremost, the primary purpose of this blog is to learn about narcissism.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Valid observations.

            (The Aggro Index stands at 2.08%)

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, this is a really good comment. It was inspiring to read it. RE: “Once I’m free from the narcissists in my life and further along in the healing process, hopefully I won’t need the support as much and I can help others” – that is my view and possibly where I am at present. Thank you for sharing your comment.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Who Cares,

            AV and I had a discussion about the sounds on the videos. We both agreed they make HG sound ‘real’ or more human as you put it. We have a particular fondness for listening to him breathing.

            I still have Tudor Minutes to spend.

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “An evil mind floating in special brain fluid”

            What colour is the brain fluid? I anticipate Vimto might want to know.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Any colour I want it to be at any given point.

          15. WhoCares says:

            “We have a particular fondness for listening to him breathing.

            I still have Tudor Minutes to spend.”

            Oh, geez, this cracked me up TS.

          16. Violetta says:



          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “Any colour I want it to be at any given point.”

            The chameleon nature of the narcissist.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            You got it. HG approves.

      8. Violetta says:


        I haven’t even done the EDC yet. As far as pride, I’m proud that I didn’t descend to punching GrinchLady in the face, however richly she deserved it, but I’m still not sure if my short-circuited attempt to bring her policy violations to management’s attention was defeated Shell-Shocked Silence or a recognition that I was wasting my breath, and to protest would only give them more fuel–they just didn’t want to hear it. All I could think was, “the manager is also a narc. I suspected it before, given what other people have said as well as what I’ve observed, but now I’m as certain as I can be without HG’s having done an NDC on her. Without evidence, I’m screwed. Couldn’t use a phone in the classroom to record the GL in action, and coworker Carla will try to stay out of it and mumble that she ‘doesn’t remember.'”

        So was I wise or a wimp? I did as well as I could without HG in the room with me or feeding me lines through an earbud.

    3. A Victor says:

      Hi Eternity, I have wondered the same thing but have come to believe it’s because there are narcissists in our midst and HG uses their presence to teach us things sometimes. I have made a decision to stay out of the issues, I learn from reading them, that’s enough for me.

      1. Eternity says:

        A Victor ,
        I didn’t realize they are probably Narcissist. I have read the comments but refrained from commenting. I just thought people were just trying to get their point across. I have said before I try and stay away from drama it just causes way to many problems and who needs that right. We are trying to all recover here.

        1. A Victor says:

          I agree. I do see the sense in it, in a way, but I have no desire to participate.

          1. Eternity says:

            Yup, me too I have other desires that I need to fill.

        2. A Victor says:

          Eternity, I’m sure that people wanting to get their point across its a lot of it also. I hadn’t thought of that. Thank you.

          1. Eternity says:

            A Victor ,
            You so welcome hun !

      2. Leigh says:

        Ive decided to stay out of the issues as well. If a conversation makes me feel uncomfortable, I won’t comment. Sometimes I’ll continue to read but sometimes if it gets to mean, I have to stop reading too. I don’t like when people are mean. Its not necessary. So many of us have been abused so much already and we come here for solace not for more abuse.

        1. A Victor says:

          Leigh, thank you for that. That’s how I view it and I also stop reading if it goes beyond a certain point. I am so confused by all of this, I see that I don’t go with my experience, I go with what someone says. How dumb is that? I need to open my eyes, this place had done nothing but support me and I have become very fond of many here. It is scary that someone can hurt you in a place where you’ve bared your soul. But not having that experience, nor seeing most others with that experience happening, I should’ve thought that through. I am so glad to see people stating the truth. I just wanted to protect Eternity, I see her as sweetness and light and don’t understand why anyone would say anything negative to her. I do see that she can defend herself though too, which makes me happy. Anyway, thank you again Leigh, still a ways to go. Teary day ahead I’m afraid. Dammit.

          1. Leigh says:

            Its not dumb that you go by what people say. You want to believe that people are telling the truth. The best advice I can give you is trust your gut. If you feel uncomfortable, its probably best to stay away. Most people that are here, really want to help.

          2. A Victor says:

            I don’t trust my gut, I don’t even feel it most of the time. I was taught that I couldn’t trust it and it is very difficult to overcome that. The drilling down to the logic is the only thing that is helping and sometimes I can tell that it connects with the gut sensation. I will just keep working on it. Thanks!

          3. Leigh says:

            Ok. Then drill down to the logic and look to the evidence, like Mr. Tudor says. If you look at it logically and look at the evidence, you’ll have your answer.

          4. Eternity says:

            You are so kind A Victor. If I was with you I would hand you over a kleenex tissue and wipe the tears away from your eyes and tell you it’s ok. Then I would cry with you. Giving you a big hug right now!

          5. A Victor says:

            Thank you Eternity, I have had to get a few kleenex’s today, I appreciate the thought! Thank you for the hug too. I don’t mind the virtual ones! 🙂

          6. Eternity says:

            Again A Victor you are welcome. Sending you another hug for good.luck !

          7. Another Cat says:

            Big hugs to you and your son A V, he has a great mom.

          8. A Victor says:

            AC, that is very kind, thank you.

        2. Eternity says:

          Leigh, my thoughts exactly !
          We needs more abuse. We have been through hell and back. I don’t know about you but I have had enough. Enough is enough.
          Let’s keep learning here and support one another. We all need somebody to lean on.

          1. Leigh says:

            I agree 100%!

          2. Eternity says:

            Me too ! This thread is super duper long. My email keeps beeping with new comments coming in.

      3. MP says:

        If that is true then that is really sad. I know that I passed my ED but what if everyone here thinks that I am that narcissist that HG allows here to be used to teach commenters lessons. It makes me feel objectified. Why would I want to be around and seen as a fool being used to illustrate what a narcissist is. I came here to learn about my past and to protect myself in the current and future. Occasionally I give support and share information that I think might be helpful. But if I am just being manipulated then it’s not something that is worth my time.

        1. Leigh says:

          HI MP, I don’t if it makes a difference but I don’t think you’re one of the narcissists on here. Not everyone is going to get along with everyone and that’s ok. There are a lot of strong personalities on the blog. We have to be strong to endure the things we’ve gone through. There are going to be times that these personalities clash. I think the things you have shared have been helpful. A lot of what you say resonates with me.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh, “We have to be strong to endure the things we’ve gone through.” This is a great comment, thank you for stating it, it is helpful to remember.

          2. Leigh says:

            Your welcome. I saw you’re thinking about leaving the site. Try not to let a couple of bad apples ruin the whole bunch. There are many here that genuinely caring people.

          3. A Victor says:

            Well, that is only a momentary thought in the heat of the situation. I have decided to just avoid those interactions more. They have been good for learning but the level of upset is not worth it sometimes. I do realize that most here are amazing people who only want to help. And that there is no better place to go for the learning. So, new game plan, just go elsewhere on the blog during those events, as I have previously done. If I said the things that come into my mind during some of those things, everyone would think I am a narcissist! And sometimes it is very tempting. So, best to avoid altogether.

        2. A Victor says:

          MP, I think he allows people to disagree, I know I need to build my assertiveness quotient. Maybe it’s for that purpose, not just for me of course but others as well? Eternity made a good point, people trying to get their point across, not that that’s you, just that empaths can do it as well as narcs, a point I missed. I was not thinking of anyone when I wrote that, I apologize if it offended you.

          1. MP says:

            Hello AV and Leigh, thank you for the reassurance. I apologize for jumping into conclusions too. I want to write a longer explanation maybe tomorrow when my day is less busy. But right now I just want to send this really quickly to send my appreciation and apologies as well.

          2. Leigh says:

            MP, I don’t think you need to apologize. I don’t think you did anything wrong. We all jump to conclusions or over think sometimes. I mean, I’m Queen of the over thinkers. We’re good. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I do find you helpful and supportive.

          3. MP says:

            Thank you Leigh! HG could have another sin of the empaths article: Overthinking.
            Although I guess it could fall in the sin of Self Doubt category. 😊

          4. A Victor says:

            No problem MP, no need to apologize either. I spoke to Eternity from my own ignorance about the situation and here again I have been learning ever more. Have a good day.

          5. MP says:

            Thank you AV. No worries either. It wasn’t ignorance, it was how you saw or interpreted the situation. I promised to write a longer comment but I see many new comments posted since then and a lot of interesting opinions and perspectives have been shared already that I don’t think I have anything new or different to add. Thank you AV and have a wonderful day!

          6. A Victor says:

            Hi MP, absolutely not trying to be disagreeable, but it actually was ignorance. The issue that had happened the week before was one in which I learned that narcissists are on here. So when this issue came up, that was where my mind went. I had not yet learned that empaths can also have problems amongst themselves, that was new to me. So, my comment literally was from a place of not knowing the bigger picture. And I was caught off guard by the number of responses that happened in addition to mine, shouldn’t have been, but that did see a bigger picture. As such I immediately realized the error in my thinking and wished I had not put that comment up. But once there, too late. I have learned much from this experience and will be more cautious going forward.

            My mother was very negative about my friendships with girls/women. I think as a result I did not have many and did not learn how to interact in healthy ways. She disliked the cattiness so used that to keep me, in my opinion, from friendships. The cattiness is something I really dislike, did she know this and use it? Did I learn to dislike it because she talked about it? Who knows, all I do know is that it is something that makes me feel out of control, out of my element, and I just want it to stop when it happens, why can’t we all just get along. But, that is not reality and I guess I must face it, to a degree. Thankfully, as HG has pointed out here, it is in the very small minority of comments only, not the bulk. I hope you have a wonderful day also!

          7. MP says:

            Hello AV, I understand. I have changed so much too since I started in the blog. This has been the first forum I have been actively participated in so there has been a learning curve. And also things I regret but it doesn’t matter because we can always change going forward.

            My mother was the same way. If she saw me enjoying someone’s company or praising the person to her a lot, whether it was a relative or a friend, she would tell me that the person was just using me and didn’t really like me. It has affected a lot of my socializing and when I read the word “programming “ it really feels like programming from childhood by an N parent because it’s so hard to rewire yourself. I have to say I have changed so much in my 11 yrs of marriage with a normal because he pointed out toxic behaviors or even mindset from me and I gave them thought and he was right so eventually I have gotten rid of a lot of them.

            I can totally relate with you about not being sure if your dislike for something was authentic to you or was programed to you. It takes a lot of searching for ourselves but also it helped me a lot to just embrace who I am now whether it was from the programming. Even though it’s a cliché, for me sometimes it helps to tell myself that this is who I am now and I will just go forward with whatever I currently got. If you dislike arguments I think that you did a wonderful thing to stay out of it because you are honoring your feelings. 🦋

          8. A Victor says:

            MP, thank you for sharing your understanding about our evolution here, it really relates to reprogramming or rewiring for me, very much so. And narc parents are horrible, the worst. I am working on becoming aware of my gut feelings, being more assertive (a long way to go on this one!), discovering and defining my sense of self etc all on top of learning about narcissism generally. You know, HG could’ve stopped at narcissism and only told us that side of it, and that in itself would’ve been a huge gift to humanity. The fact that he also tells us about ourselves also is a huge bonus. I mean, they are intertwined but one could be done without the other. And he certainly could choose to keep the blog absolutely focused on narcissism, the articles, maybe our questions about narcissism. But he has allowed a lot of freedom for us to experience growth as empaths also, to learn about ourselves and to facilitate our rewiring. I will never be able to thank him enough for this. And I am glad that the whole picture is here so that others can read and learn also, even if they never comment. And, I am glad that it all helps build his legacy, otherwise he would not be doing it. MP, your comment brought all of this to mind, I am thankful for that as well. 💕

          9. MP says:

            Thank you AV. I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you said. 💕

          10. MP says:

            Honoring my feelings has been something that I have been personally working on. Acknowledging them and listening. It kind of sounds cheesy but for me it was something that I was neglecting so for me it is a big deal.

          11. A Victor says:

            Not cheesy at all, i have been doing that for 25 years, very slowly until I arrived here. Feelings have value, they just aren’t allowed to drive.

        3. Violetta says:

          MP, I don’t think you are. I’m not the expert, but some of the recurring fly-bys have an arrogance that they simply cannot conceal for very long. Some of them don’t even try to conceal it: I don’t want to summon anyone by naming names a la Beetlejuice, but if someone can’t even be bothered to change that creaky old avatar and thinks no one will notice….

          Also, you have shown considerable understanding that depending on culture, dumping narcy parents can be a lot more difficult than dumping a narcy romantic partner. I think that is only realistic.

          1. BC30 says:

            Ah ha! I’ve proven myself by having changed my avatar. LOL On a serous note, I agree with your comment in whole.

          2. MP says:

            Thank you Violetta and BC30. Glad I regularly change my avatars. 😊

          3. Violetta says:

            MP, I rotate the same 2 avatars (the 2nd was a fruitless attempt to get WordPress back to sending me notifications–it worked until it didn’t).

            I meant people who try to sock-puppet HG or the Tudoristas, but regardless what they’re currently calling themselves, they:
            1. Have the same arrogance and lamentable prose style;
            2. Can probably be identified through IP addy at HG’s end;
            3. Use the same, tired, early Windows Gravatar.

            Let us not summon such by naming them. They regularly promise never to return–and then they do, promptly commencing to trash both our genial host and all participants. The ultimate KTN Hokey-Pokey.

          4. MP says:

            Yup I know who you’re talking about. I don’t think I have seen her for a while. But I haven’t been around that much until recently these past weeks so maybe I just didn’t see when she showed up. I agree about not summoning the bad spirit. 😊

        4. Eternity says:

          MP, I don’t think you are a Narcissist especially if you passed you ED.
          These Narcissist don’t know what they are when they come across here especially Mid Rangers they are hard to spot, and can seem friendly and polite. They actually think they are the victim in all.of this. We take a chance when we comment back to someone. I wouldn’t worry about it though. We came here to learn and educated ourselves so right now that is all that matters.

          1. MP says:

            Thank you Eternity.

          2. Eternity says:

            You are so welcome hun!

      4. Another Cat says:

        I pondered this a lot through the years, and it seems to me that HG doesn’t throw anyone off just for existing and being a narcissist.

        Unless they broke forum rules. Jeopardizing the integrity of the blog, wrote a lot of ad hominems etc.

        Seagulls will be thrown off, the Pamelas, Lessers, but they are too obvious and screamish. Those are usually moderated off any internet forum, even forums where no one has ever heard the term narcissist.

        Midrangers usually make it long on anyone’s comments field on social media.

        There are probably ways of commenting without meeting any Midrangers either,

        and I would guess that the KTN forum (because entrance has a cost) is a place like that, narcproof, they’re filtered out by HG.

        Which brings me to another guess: Forums in general, the ones which are Not free of charge, have much fewer narc members, they’re filtered out by the admins.

        1. A Victor says:

          AC, I think you are correct, there would be no reason to filter narcs out unless they broke the rules. And their presence does make for some interesting learning. The thoughts about the forums that have a cost is good though I don’t think I would get into some of the personal things on KTN that I might here. DC I would, and have, that could be concerning, I didn’t realize about narc accessibility at that point. Anyway, thank you for the comment, I appreciate it.

        2. BC30 says:

          Wow. I read that and thought to myself that being here has a cost. Usually, a very painful cost.

      5. A Victor says:

        It just hit me, I wasn’t 100% wrong with this comment! Yay, I am not misreading everything as much as I thought! My day just improved a bit.

    4. Asp Emp says:


      I agree. It’s a matter of people having an opportunity to put their views across. Everyone has the right to say something.

      This blog has people who are narcissists and empaths, some of which have other ‘conditions’ which can be classed as co-morbid, or even complex personality ‘conditions’. This can confuse some people who are not aware of the inner brain-wirings of these other ‘conditions’. Hence the different facets of various prisms leading to a mountain of different perceptions.

      People are not like sheep, sheep have one way of thinking / feeling. People are made of thousands of genes, inherited from ancestors, some of these genes can become ‘faulty’ due to environmental circumstances, or man-made ‘mistakes’ – ie Thalidomide ‘victims’ of a man-made chemical, another example is the infamous Bubonic plague, both these changed human DNA. Those are two examples. One by man, the other by rats.

      What I am getting at, is the fact, that let’s say – hypothetically – it is an example – the people who are ancestors of those who carry the bubonic plague ‘faulty / damaged’ DNA now evolved to have narcissism DNA. Those that did not come into contact with the bubonic plague would not have inherited the same DNA, maybe they became empaths. So if a narcissist and an empath mate = pot luck & depends on the strengths of DNA which will result in either more narcissists, or more empaths. That is would be determined by the LOCE.

      When you add the other ‘conditions’ into the mix – it complicates the human psyche even more. Hence leading to different psychological patterns in the brain.

      There will be people who do not know or understand about it. Maybe they never will, because of their brain-wiring. It’s the psychological perceptions, of which some can be ‘re-programmed’ Some cannot. Because the DNA is not present within their neurological biochemical make-up.

      Dolly the Sheep was created, easily. A ‘cloned’ human is also possible. Yet the people of the world would totally be against the suggestion. However, all the Laws in relation to Human Rights etc would have to be abolished. So ‘cloning’ a human would never happen. Yet, it would be one way of removing narcissism and creating more empaths!

      So, we have to make do with what we have got on this planet.

      I can assure you, I am not a narcissist. I have narcissistic traits. I have emotional empathy, cognitive empathy and logical thinking, laterally and analytically.

      1. Eternity says:

        Asp Emp,
        Thank you for the explanation I found extremely interesting . You are very smart 👌
        I have the triple package from HG and he explained it in detail how we as Empaths are created and evolved. I never even knew about Empaths or Narcissist until I came here. Still learning, especially on YouTube.
        Asp Emp I know you are not a Narcissist. We all have Narcissistic traits.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hi Eternity, glad you found it interesting. I am not smart, just analytical. Yes, it is really eye-opening when you find out about empaths & narcissists. Talk about brain-freeze!! Thank you RE: we all have narcissistic traits. Thank you, once again 🙂

          1. Eternity says:

            Asp Emp, you are right very eye opening I might add. You are so very welcome anytime!

    5. NarcAngel says:

      Same reason some people dunk their cookies til the bubbles stop.

      1. Eternity says:

        Slam dunk NA!

      2. BC30 says:

        I must confess I break my cookies into chunks and use a spoon. I wonder who was first to do such a thing.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Haha, the first to dunk and spoon might be you BC (although this appeals to me now). I wonder who first saw an egg coming out of a chicken and thought: Hey! Imma eat that! (and likely raw).

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I do that. I don’t like cookies particularly but if anything has chocolate in it IT MUST BE DUNKED AND MELTED.

        3. Leigh says:

          I’m trying to divert your attention a little bit. Chihuahuamom made a comment on the Pink Pill thread that you might find interesting.


          1. BC30 says:

            Ty, I think I commented below.

          2. BC30 says:

            Leigh, have you had some consultation with attorneys yet? “No way around the Social Security benefits. It’s federal law.” There is always, always a loophole or things can be evaded by contract. I’m not sure hiring a narcissist is best (maybe?), but at least an attorney familiar with clinical narcissism.

          3. Leigh says:

            Consulting an attorney is definitely the top priority. I don’t want a cut throat attorney. Its not who I am. I just want what’s mine. He can have the house and a portion of my social security benefits and I keep the rest. I’m good with that.

          4. BC30 says:

            I understand. I know HG is best to advise on legal matters, but take my humble, little two cents for what they’re worth. You don’t need a cut throat attorney, but you do need a die hard attorney. The kind of attorney that will hold your feet to the fire and make you stake the claim you said you were going to stake in the moments you want to give up because of emotional exhaustion, because they care, not just because they want to win.

          5. Leigh says:

            Oh, that’s a very good point because I can see me giving up because I don’t want to fight anymore. Ugh! I hope its easier than I’m thinking.

          6. Eternity says:

            Leigh , sorry I am commenting here. Fight for what you are entitled to, but also. compromise as well it will make everything go way smoother and way FASTER !!!! Lawyers are very expensive and will milk you for what you got. The money that you will fight for in court will only go to the lawyers and then what are you left with? Just my advice and experience from my divorce.

          7. Leigh says:

            I agree 100% Eternity. I won’t fight. Its not worth it to me. He can have the house and I keep my retirement plans. Seems like an fair and equitable split.

          8. Eternity says:

            Leigh ,
            Exactly, please take it from my personal experience. You should get half the money for the house. You are entitled to it Leigh you have been married for so long you deserve it !

          9. Leigh says:

            Eternity, unfortunately I still have empathy for the man. I wish I didn’t, but I do. He needs it more than I do. He won’t be able to live on the money he makes so at least if he sells the house, he can live on that. It will be my way to assuage my guilt of leaving.

  10. Eliza- BadGrammer-OakeyDokeyUser says:

    Just popped in from gardening and pass the popcorn please 🍿 I for one love reading a lively exchange or even an occasional dick reference cracks me up 😂

    I also make a super easy Baked Alaska and now I want one 🤔

    I am curious about what saying oakey – cokey means ?
    I DO Love using the ol’ oakey dokey when ever I can 😜

    1. Asp Emp says:


    2. A Victor says:

      Eliza- BadGrammer-OakeyDokeyUser, there appears to be a cake theme developing…

      I am curious about Oakey – cokey also, haven’t heard it before, thank you for asking the question.

      1. Violetta says:

        Is this like the hokey-pokey, a variant of the hokey-pokeym

        You put your right foot in
        You put your right foot out….

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Violetta…. that is very funny!

        2. A Victor says:

          Oh, I see, thank you.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Hokey Pokey: A dance performed in a circle while turning yourself around. ”

          “That’s what it’s all about.”

          Hokey Cokey?

          Google – Wikipedia.

      2. Another Cat says:

        Googled it on youtube, some nursery rhyme. HG probably thought of a dance when he saw MP’s quick return.

        MP, glad you decided to stay after all.

        1. A Victor says:

          Thank you.

        2. JB says:

          AC, I didn’t realise so many people didn’t know what the Hokey Cokey was! I wouldn’t say it’s a nursery rhyme as such, it’s a song where you all get in a circle and sing (see lyrics already mentioned in this thread), and at the chorus you all hold hands and move forwards into the circle, and then back again. Great fun at baby group! And when you’ve had a few too many! 😂

          1. A Victor says:

            JB, that’s because it is the Hokey Pokey! 🤣🤣🤣

          2. JB says:

            Pokey, AV?! What a thought! 😂

          3. A Victor says:

            Haha, we used to sing this and do the actions at the roller rink, it was very fun. But yes, I don’t even know what a “Cokey” is, I have assumed something British.

        3. MP says:

          Hello AC, apparently you got the closest answer. He was joking about how fast I came back when I said I will be on a break. So the reference on the Hokey Cokey song was a joke about my in and out behavior which I have also already done in the past before.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            How fast you came back? You never left in the first place!

          2. MP says:

            The addiction is real!

    3. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Eliza Bad Grammar ( haha!)

      RE dick comments, stay tuned for the Sex and the Narcissist related articles. We have no problem sharing our experiences here on the blog! There will be plenty of giggles to come. Narcissism is a difficult subject, sometimes we need some humour to break it up a bit I think.

      I chose baked Alaska on purpose. It’s supposed to be notoriously difficult to cook, far far beyond my league!

      I’ve seen a few of your comments on various threads. You have a great sense of humour!

      Pleased to meet you Eliza.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Ease back on the baking paraphernalia.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          “Ease back on the baking paraphernalia”

          Haha, ok ok, just playing!

        2. Eliza-BadGramOakeyDokeyDickLover says:

          Nice to meet All of You Ladies and Gent or Gents …💗 one last Baking reference PLEASE …lol

          (Edit from HG : That’s a negative on the baking).

          1. Eliza-BadLittleDicksandOakeyDokeys says:

            That post and the recipe was a mess – I blame the little dicks … I think you can piece it together …lol

          2. A Victor says:

            Hahaha! Love the edit!!

          3. Another Cat says:

            I get tired of baking references, feel like I’m not enough about my own stove, so I am relieved of your rule, HG.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            HG approves.

          5. A Victor says:

            Same. I ‘should’ cook more but I don’t have a kitchen easily accessible and I don’t love it, so it doesn’t happen.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            That edit made me laugh, didn’t see it at first.

          7. Eliza-Nothingbutrouble says:

            😂 am I in the Dungeon ?

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Are there pictures of cakes all over the walls? Chicken feathers on the floor? Then yes.

          9. Violetta says:


            Are you hearing piped-in Celine Dion?

          10. Eliza-BadGrammer says:

            I cant tell TSeeker – there is baked Alaska smeared all over my face and in my eyes ….

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Hahaha! I belly laughed at that. Xx

          12. Eliza-BadSingingandGrammer says:

            Yes ! Violetta 🎶 Neaaaaaar, faaaaaar, wheeeeeeeerreeeeevvveerr you aaaaareeee🎶
            It’s reverberating on the stone walls!!!

          13. Violetta says:


            You been BAD.

    4. BC30 says:

      As a DE and discerning Cougar extraordinaire, I’m a huge fan of dick references and IRL, of dick pix 🤭 “Things my dick does” — Google it.

      1. A Victor says:

        BC30, that’s hilarious! I have never thought dicks were the best looking part of any man! Thank you for the google idea, I need to remember to use it more! Lol!!

        1. Another Cat says:

          I mean, men must have a sense of humour, they have a whole bodypart living its very own life.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hahahaha!!! Another Cat, that is the best comment ever!! Love it!!! And so true!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat


          3. Asp Emp says:

            AC, RAOFLMAO!

          4. Chihuahuamum says:

            Lmaooo Another Cat!!

        2. BC30 says:

          Truly. There is a lot of variety, some more handsome than others. 😁

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, I’ve not noticed that!! Will have to pay more attention!

          2. Eliza-SendMeNoDickPics says:

            Lol …. I agree – why do some men think sending women a pic is a good thing !? Esp on Instagram ?

          3. BC30 says:

            Haha, your updated user name is hilarious! 🚫

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:


        Will Google later just finishing my jumbo hotdog.
        “More mustard?”
        “Why yes, thank you!”

        1. BC30 says:

          Haha! Apropos. (Make sure you’re not drinking anything when you view.)

  11. NarcAngel says:

    When did we pass 24 million?

    Probably this thread haha. Well done and onward to 25!

    1. Asp Emp says:

      NA, it was around a week ago or so. Yes, congrats are due.

  12. NarcAngel says:

    Chrissy T analysis.

    Woo hoo! Let’s all move on to dessert.

    1. Eliza- PassthePopcorn says:

      I So Agree 😈….pass the 🍿

      1. Violetta says:

        I haven’t listened yet, but I’m going to guess lower mid-range. She knows she needs a facade, unlike Trump, but she can barely scrape one together.

        1. OkeyWokey says:

          A Karen!! Good call

    2. NarcAngel says:

      DO NOT miss HG’s seriously entertaining 2 part analysis of C. T now on Youtube!

  13. NarcAngel says:


    I would like to speak if I may, to the subject of having “friends” here and the occasional accusation of there being “cliques”.

    I do not consider myself to have “friends” here as I do not interact with anyone here off blog (despite many requests) as I find your advice with regard to that prudent, and I do not believe that there are “cliques”.

    People may gravitate to and interact with people that they determine to be like-minded and who will are perceived as being open to discussion, but I do not believe that constitutes being “friends” or part of a “clique”. Those who use these terms don’t seem to apply it to themselves if people agree with them. Funny that.

    I am responsible only for my opinion and not those who are perceived as being my “friends” because we have had congenial conversations previously. I also do not expect “allegiance” or anyone to come to my “defence” if there is disagreement and have stated as such previously.

    I think it unfair to paint pictures with these terms as they are the perception of someone else and it is beyond the control of any commenter that people will gravitate to them for banter or agree with their comments. I also think it detrimental to the blog to have newcomers believe this to be the case when determining whether or not to engage with others in commenting.

    If you find this comment unfounded or unnecessary I understand it will be deleted.

  14. Duchessbea says:

    I am aware that my sister has insulted you with comments that she made, please accept my apology on her behalf.
    You also sent me a very decent and explanatory comment, where you quite rightfully wanted me to back up everything that had happened. When I contacted you on the night I became aware, I was furious with my sister for what she had done. I still am. But I had to weigh up the situation as it is and the fact that she did what she did when she is fully not herself, I had to let it slide. Knowing her true character before she has effectively spiralled out of control, would she have done the same, I don’t think so, at least I’d like to think not. And very much NOT using someone else’s username. I respect the fact that you gave great advice and allowed me to comment further.
    The sense of betrayal from what my sister has done, is very hard to accept. I treated her very well in my home and that fact that she did this against me, is hard to accept. But it is a big lesson learned, and not one easily forgotten. Once a narc, always a narc. We had an intervention with her last night. I just couldn’t have her in my house any longer. My eldest brother has taken her to live with him. She is out of control and the only person that can’t see it is her. We have also closed down all of her accounts and one of my sisters has taken control of all her personal and financial affairs. We are contacting her doctor tomorrow about the best course of treatment that can be provided to her to get her back on the straight and narrow.
    I understand if it is too much for people if I am commenting on this blog again, and as such if people don’t want to comment with me, I will get the message loud and clear. I am aware that a number of commentators suggested that I was a narc also, I can see where they might have gotten that idea, but I am a long term commentator on this blog and I have never insulted any other commentator on this blog, I along with other people have defended some commentators and I have also defended yourself alongside other commentators on this blog. But, if you feel that the ‘mark’ was overstepped HG, and you would prefer for the sake of other people’s feelings and reactions that I don’t comment on here anymore, I can understand that and I will not do so. Either way I will respect your decision HG.
    Thank you, HG.
    Best, DB.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are entitled to comment like anybody else DB, within the parameters of the rules and any additional stipulations that I may make to maintain order in this place.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        HG, I have not responded to any of her recent comments because I had hoped she would contact you by email to cover the matter privately rather than put it on various threads on the blog. Doing this by email would have offered some ways of sign-posting to support that the family need. Maybe the family ie the brother and DB herself (together) can do an audio consult with you to obtain your expertise and guidance to assisting with the issues they are currently experiencing.

        Having said that, it is good that they have taken some course of action, especially in relation to accounts / personal & financial affairs. It is also good that they are reaching out to communicate with the doctor, however, does the doctor know enough about narcissism to be able to help the patient in question? Is the doctor qualified enough to be able to advise / treat the patient who has narcissism and the added difficulties involving alcohol?

        Hence my suggestion of an audio consult with yourself with your experience and knowledge, and the recent occurrences, in my opinion, you are the best person to assist this family to moving forward. I understand that with the complexity of what the family have at present, it may require more than one consult, yet in the longer term it may well be worth the investment on their part.

        Once again, thank you for your time, HG.

        1. Duchessbea says:

          Asp Emp,
          Thank you for your comment.
          Best DB.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Duchessbea, from my being on KTN blog, having obtained what I needed to do for myself and achieving what I aimed to do for myself. I now can apply my logic to be able to offer support to others. I can also apply my own personal experiences, my understanding to your situation.

            I thought about the whole ‘matter’ and went through the emotions of it all too. Then I came to a decision. Hence the comment I sent directly to HG, with the hope that you would also see it too.

            I don’t know if you read my comment on the recent ‘The 10 Obligations of the Empath’. I wanted to reach out to you and I did, indirectly.

            Logically, it makes sense for you to consider what I suggested and communicate with HG (not to talk about the comments as such, but about the way forward for your situation at home, your family’s situation). Again, it is up to you how you wish to proceed with your situation within your family. You and your family matter more than what had been said previous to today’s comments.

            Do this for yourself, your family and in turn, everyone here on this blog (including HG) will feel we are continuing to do what we are all here for – not to allow narcissism to take over our lives (mentally or emotionally).

      2. Duchessbea says:

        Thank you for your comment. I might take a short break from the blog, to let the dust settle a little bit after everything, and out of respect to other people.
        Thank you HG.
        Best, DB.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I see that it already has but it’s entirely a matter for you.

    2. NarcAngel says:


      I said nothing during these exchanges because there was a lot to process and some confusion, so I observed. You are not new here and I did not remember taking exception with your previous comments or them being of the tone in the recent comments that caused such offence, so it gave me pause. People can and do however change or go through phases while here so one can never be too sure. One thing is for sure – time tells. You have apologized, and my feeling is that if things are as you have explained about your sister and your heightened ET and are now back to normal, that will be reflected in your interactions going forward. For what it’s worth – I remain willing to interact presently while time reveals the circumstances and your explanation to be either borne out or disproven and your apologies genuine.


      1. Duchessbea says:

        I can understand why you would view it like that. If I had not been involved in the thread, I too would have taken a very similar viewpoint whilst observing the interaction going on.
        Thank you for your comment.
        Best DB.

  15. Duchessbea says:

    I am aware that there are two different threads running in the commentary section of this article. I am mainly referring to the people I commented with, but also if anyone from the other thread has read and was offended by comments posted under my username but not written by me, I apologise to each and everyone of you.
    Also, if I missed any comments that had been written on different articles and I have not apologised to people directly, I am apologising on behalf of my sister for any offence caused to you.
    Thank you.
    Best, DB.

    1. Eternity says:

      I do feel bad for you if your sister ended commenting under your name. Narcissist have a way of getting into our information.
      I have had similar experiences in my past so I completely understand. Please don’t worry people who are on here are complete strangers so no need to worry . You have done more than your share by apologizing, and that is all is all you can do. You have done your part. Now go ahead and enjoy the rest of your day.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Thank you for your lovely comment.
        Best, DB

        1. Eternity says:

          You are so welcome hun.

  16. Duchessbea says:

    TS & Asp Emp,
    I have read your latest comments on here and by all accounts that is a very kind and logical way to view them. I too would view them in the same way you have. I agree with everything you have said and in all fairness you approached the situation from the correct standpoint and I know if I had not been involved in that thread but was reading it as a bystander, I would have approached that thread from the same viewpoint.
    There was no need to think you were fuelling the fire with me, I was in a heightened state of ET both at anger at what my sister had done, and anger in seeing her in a vulnerable state and her telling me that you were all being verbally abusive towards her. I have had space and time to reflect since I last commented on here. My sister has now gone to stay with my eldest brother. To be honest, I couldn’t keep her in the house anymore. I just felt so let down by her. I just can’t trust her. Perhaps after she receives the help that she needs, perhaps I could be open again, but wary at the same time due to the fact that she has in a way betrayed my trust, but also the fact that she is a narc. As we all know, once a narc, always a narc.
    On reading the responses, the first time, I was very much in a heightened state of ET and wasn’t reading or looking at things from a logical stand point. It did come across like she was being attacked in the comments. But having had time to reflect and taken a bit of time out, I have had time to go back at look at everything she sent from the past few days last week and I now see that she was the one who was causing all the aggro and I also see that you were just responding to the manner in which she had written which is fully understandable.
    I had allowed her to use my computers in my house in good faith, but I didn’t stand over her to watch what she was doing. I never would have thought she would do something like that. Not least because she is my sister, but just out of sheer decency on the fact that she was staying in my house, and I told her to make herself at home and I gave her permission to use my computers. If it had been the other way around, I would never, ever do that to someone else. In a sense, I suppose some of my heightened ET was that I had felt awfully betrayed by my sister in what she had done. It portrayed me in a very bad light, and as I too am the same as you and other people on HG’s blog, I know what it feels like when someone behaves like that. It is not nice. I felt awfully let down by my sister.
    You are both and anyone else are fully in the right in not wanting to communicate with me again, but I just thought you should know the full story. I am the real DB.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      This has been a strange exercise for me. A real mix of instinct, cadres, schools and learning. What I have learned here on the blog facilitated my identifying the comments written by your sister as those of a narcissist. I was sure, but I’m not a fan of calling it for reasons stated in my previous comments.

      Then you yourself joined the thread. My instinctive reaction was that it was you, the real DB. I could tell the difference. Or, I believed I could tell the difference and spoke up to that effect.
      The problem is that your sister was commenting close to the times you were. I believed I could feel the difference between the two of you but I can’t swear to that, not online. The issue for me is not what your sister said, you can’t be held responsible for that and have no need to apologise for her. The issue for me is are you and ‘your sister’ one person?

      How many articles have we read about the various faces of the narcissist? “More faces than a town hall clock”. They shift, change, mirror, project and deflect. They provoke, charm, pity play, triangulate and withdraw. My ensnarement was online. Demonstrably my instincts were of absolutely no use to me there. I called it right with the online narc to begin with. I did see. Then I gave benefit of the doubt and kept doing so, I could never get a clear picture. It was constantly changing. So for me, in all honesty it’s very difficult to see this situation clearly. Online is my biggest weakness. I am well aware of that.

      You do sound and feel like you though DB. Now you do. Today. As well as a few times previously. Instinctively I believe you. Logically I have been taught not to. Perfect! Clear as mud then!

      I feel for you in the situation you are in. To see comments like that under your name must be awful. To try to explain and get people to understand that this is you again, the real DB, must be incredibly frustrating.

      This place is a support you likely need, especially given the situation with your sister. I think you should remain on the blog and continue to comment.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Thank you for your kind comment. I do have a twin sister, it wasn’t her, it was one of my older sisters.
        I might take a break for a little while from the blog. This was a hard lesson to learn and I think the sense of betrayal after I treated her very well in my home, is the hardest thing to accept.
        Many thanks again for your comment.
        Best, DB.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          It’s only normal that you would expect your sister to respect your privacy. You were offering use of your home and trying to help her. The assumption is that this would be recognised, appreciated and respected. We assume others will behave as we would and it’s very sad when this isn’t the case.

          There is no recognition or genuine gratitude from a narcissist. Even one who is a sibling. That’s not your fault. You feel betrayed because betrayal of trust is exactly what did occur. You are a kind hearted person and deserve to be treated with respect. Use the blog and the materials available here to ensure you are not betrayed again.

          1. Duchessbea says:

            That is a very kind comment.
            Thank you.
            Best, DB.

  17. Duchessbea says:

    I feel it is best that I turn off from the blog. People are getting the impression that I am attacking them when I am not. I would never do that. I never came onto this blog site to do that. I came to learn like everyone else.
    My ET is heightened because of everything going on with my sister and I’m worried about her.
    I want to thank you for your advice and assistance.
    Thank you HG.

    1. MP says:

      Hello DB,

      I just want to say that I admit at first I was wondering if you have a multiple personality disorder. But now I think I believe you. I can see my mom doing that to me and think it’s the most hilarious thing she has ever done. Especially if my mom have been seeing me listen to HG’s videos etc. I am sorry about your experience. You do sound different than your sister. And I know this whole thing is extremely frustrating. I can’t even begin to think how I would be able to handle that is I was you. Hopefully things get better for your family and wishing you well. Take care.

  18. Duchessbea says:

    HG, thank you for your email. I could send you an email privately and explain the whole situation but to do so, considering the messages I have read so far, is like running away and trying to hide. I have nothing to hide from and as such, as my sister used my Username and not her own in doing what she did, I feel it is only fair to respond on the public forum.
    I am highly disgusted at the behaviour of my sister, and the fact that she did what she did using my Username. I don’t condone what she did at all. There is no excuse for what she did, but I think I should make you and everyone else aware of most of the facts.
    My sister is a Lower Mid Ranger. She and I are pleasant to one another attending family occasions, being sisters but other than that, we have nothing in common and if we were not sisters, we would not associate with one another.
    My sister has been married for the last number of years. She and the other half (most definitely an Upper Lesser) always portrayed themselves as the Mr. & Mrs. Perfect. The Perfect Couple. Anyway, to cut a long story short, with all the lockdowns that we have had, she found out that he had been having an affair with her best friend behind her back. When she confronted him about this, he kicked her out of the house, and she is currently sofa surfing between mine and my siblings houses. She has been lashing out at everybody. Her tongue is sharper than a razor and her words are vicious. They are currently going through a very acrimonious divorce. I could go on, but I think you get the gist.
    I don’t in any way condone what she did. I have made it very clear to her that it was unacceptable what she did, and the divorce is not an excuse to do what she did. The response I got, I will not repeat here. It was actually my sister after she drank a vineyard dry yesterday, that informed me as to what she had done. Otherwise, I would still be non the wiser and she would still be posting comments here, there and everywhere and using my handle name in doing so. I am very annoyed by the fact that she used my handle name to do what she did. I have spent most of last night and today, apologising to a number of people on various different sites about the comments that were made by her using my handle name.
    She is currently halfway through yet another vineyard tonight, her behaviour is off the wall even for her. I know she is in a lot of pain and I understand that, and she is lashing out at everyone because of it. She cannot accept or handle having found out what she did, and going through the divorce with a complete bastard, Each day she seems to be getting worse. This was the final straw for me. I have called a family meeting this weekend because an intervention is very much needed.

    1. Another Cat says:

      Reading this thread, I haven’t even seen the other one, I do not envy your situation. To say the least. When they lose their primary source, either through divorce or death, some become hellish vitriol for months.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Another Cat,
        Thank you for your kind comment. It is very true what you say. They also don’t listen to reason or want to accept any help you try to give. But hopefully with all my siblings this evening, she will have to listen to what we all say. It is not going to be easy but she needs a helping hand to help her get back on her feet. She is my sister and we will do everything we can to make sure she is okay.

        1. Another Cat says:

          I’m not sure I understand why you used that tone towards TS, and it doesn’t seem like you’re going to respond to HG’s email? All communication with you ends here from me too.

          1. Another Cat says:


            But if it is the case that another person (your sister) wrote those comments in your name, then I am really sorry about your situation, and also relieved that your brother is now taking over so she stays with him for a while. All the best to you and family.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:


      Duchessbea, HG has requested email clarification for a reason. Please follow any directions he has given to you.

      Is your email secure? If so think about past communications you might have had with HG and reference them in your email. Or, if possible reply to him via these old emails. I suggest that you also inform HG as to the account name used by your sister. As moderator on this blog HG should be offered the courtesy of being made aware of this so that he can take his own view and any action he deems necessary. Your sister has violated your privacy and should understand that this has consequences.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        I will look after my sister in the best way I know how, as she is currently not thinking clearly and is all over the place and literally gone off the rails. She is currently in a lot of pain and anguish with what is going on in her personal life. Yes, she is a mid ranger, but she is still human and can’t handle being betrayed by both her ex and so called best friend. I am not about to hang my sister out to dry for your or anyone else’s amusement.
        People go through things in life, and when they are at breaking point they can do things that usually they would not do. As she has so much upheaval going on in her life, I am not about to add to it. Her health and wellbeing is more important to me. My siblings and I are trying to help her as best we can. This evening we are having an intervention with her. I don’t think it will go well. But she has spent far to much of this year drinking herself into oblivion. We have told her she needs to watch her drinking, but it is just getting worse and is not good for her. She needs some kind of treatment preferably for alcohol and to help with dealing with her personal life. We are going to try to get her into a rehab. Her ex is making her life a living hell with the divorce and it is not a nice situation for her to have to deal with. She is dealing with it the best way she knows, but drowning her sorrows everynight and lashing out at people is not helping.
        Everybody goes through things in their life. Some people can handle things, other people can’t. TS, if you can message me back and tell me that you are perfect and have never done anything stupid or wrong in your life then we can discuss this further.

        1. Another Cat says:

          A good idea is to respond to HG’s email he sent you,

          trolling someone else’s account, like your sister apparently did, is very serious. I agree with TS on that part.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Thank you for your response. No I am not perfect. Far from it.

          I did not ask you to hang your sister out to dry here on the blog for all to see, or for my amusement. I asked you to email HG with her user name so that he could review this privately and take any action he deemed necessary.

          You have stated that your sister is a narcissist and is using this blog as a means to hone her skills. By definition then she is not using this blog as a means of support in any way. Therefore, the loss of the blog would make no difference to her whatsoever. It would benefit you to reveal her identity to HG if your own identity had been taken as you claim. It would benefit the other readers here not to be subjected to her comments.

          My request was phrased very carefully. A narcissist would view it as a threat to control. An empath would view it as a means to resolve the situation. I did this purposely for my own peace of mind. You have responded as a narcissist would by rejecting it and turning the tables in my direction.

          I assume you have also rejected HG’s offer to communicate privately via email to resolve the situation.

          I have learned something here so many thanks for that. When I say ‘Understood’, I should stick to ‘Understood.’

          There will be no further interaction between myself and Duchessbea in any guise she might take on the Narcsite blog.

          1. BC30 says:

            *Super like*

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I super like you too.
            Apart from when you are armed with a pool noodle.
            Then I’m a bit scared.

          3. BC30 says:

            haha 😁

          4. Leigh says:


          5. Violetta says:

            What has BC30 done with pool noodles?

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Weaponised them! 😱

            If she does it. Suggest deluxe flamingo.

          7. Violetta says:


            I prefer Doc Martens at 10 paces.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Ahhh, ‘bother girl’ boots!

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Thanks, TS, for that. I trust that HG will do whatever is right for all concerned. Chat with you soon x

        1. BC30 says:

          *Super like*

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you 🙂

          2. BC30 says:

            I got the raise! I got the raise! I got the raise! 🥳 Thanks for your good luck wishes.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, Woo Hoo !!!! Yay ! Well done ! 🙂

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Congratulations BC30!
            (They were probably scared)

            Kidding! That’s great news. Well done 😁xx

          5. A Victor says:

            BC30, Congratulations!!!

            The House of Tudor awaits! The joggers are amazing, if your looking for a celebration purchase!

          6. BC30 says:

            Ty 😊 to everyone and indeed, AV. I may get a Bananas of Empowerment hoodie. 🍌

          7. A Victor says:

            BC30, a hoodie is on my clothing needs list also, I am holding out for an Emotional Sea one, it is my favorite. Or a Geyser one, depending on if that is an option, or if any Geyser stuff is released.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Yes, most definitely, chat soon xx.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, hope you’re ok x

  19. NarcAngel says:

    “Some people have a tendency to accuse people of narcissism prematurely. It can be traumatic for someone who has already gone through so much verbal abuse in life and went here to learn and understand what they experienced in life.”

    Yes, it can be damaging, we have seen it before, and we would do well to remember that it should not be contingent upon our feeling of either kinship with the person making the accusation, or coloured by one’s feeling of the recipients deservedness because of previous personal interactions and/or perceptions of that person. Being annoyed by or not liking someone’s comments on here will see us having opinion, but does not give us the right or expertise to affix such a damaging label. Nor do we have to uphold it because of any admiration for the accuser or prejudice against the recipient.

    1. Duchessbea says:

      NarcAngel, I very much agree.

    2. MP says:

      Hello NA, if you are referring to the past where I defended an accuser from receiving what I felt was an extreme attack by many commenters defending the one being accused, I stand by my actions. There are information about the accused person that you don’t know and only I have personally experienced since I accepted her reaching out to be my friend outside of this blog. FM1T talks about masks slipping out, let’s just say I had a similar experience although I am not confident enough to say it’s narcissism, it was enough for me to see a strong pattern in my personal interactions with the accused. HG was not aware of it at that time because I didn’t know that I could have brought it up to his attention. But I gave him evidence that I have outside of this blog and he has been respectful about it.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        There are other instances of this happening besides the one you refer to, but your perception here is that people were defending the accused when the exception taken by many was that the accuser was not felt qualified or entitled to arbitrarily assign that label due to their merely being annoyed by the accused’s comments and conduct on the blog. It became apparent through comments there that there had been contact outside of the blog between you (that HG strictly warned against on many occasions and this is a good example of why). You say here that the title should not be used prematurely (it was in that case) and that it can be traumatic. I agree. Yet you aligned yourself with the accuser (you said you admired their honesty) because of your personal and negative experience with the accused. You have admitted elsewhere that you liked a comment that you didn’t agree with (narcissism being brilliant) because that person had been nice to you. My feeling is that allegiance should not enter into an opinion given.

        In any case – it is a good reminder to heed HG’s warning that people not interact outside of the blog.

      2. MP says:

        Also NA, I did not make the accusation nor upheld it. All that I did was defend the accuser from a very harsh attack from several people as I don’t enjoy seeing anyone outnumbered and viciously dehumanized. Especially when I recognize that the evidence she presented on red flags and patterns are so true. Especially since I have had my own experience with the accused where she behaved in an unacceptable manner when I didn’t do anything to her. I am not explaining this to convince you since you already made up your mind and you don’t care about the truth. HG has my evidence and he knows what happened and that’s why I can still comment here. I am explaining it to anyone who might be influenced by your misrepresentation of me.

      3. lickemtomorrow says:

        All the alarm bells are ringing for me now.

        “Information about the accused person that you don’t know and only I have personally experienced since I accepted her reaching out to be my friend outside of this blog” – that sounds like manipulation to me.

        Would you have defended this person if she hadn’t taken you aside the way she has done? Why did she reach out to you specifically? Did she have a reason for doing that? Have your attitudes to other posters changed since this has happened? If so, why? Since it feels like we’re in a Court of Law (with accusers and accused), it seems an ideal time to start asking a few questions about this commenter, and what their intentions might be.

        I see NA has commented on a warning HG has given around contact outside of the blog. I wasn’t fully aware of that, but it makes sense.

        If you are a ‘target’ and if you are being manipulated, now is the time to find out, MP.

        1. MP says:

          Hello LET,

          I understand your curiosity. HG has already handled the manner. Basically a bunch of us were following HG elsewhere and I was contacted by the accused commenter who offered friendship to me. I was very happy and flattered and we connected through Facebook and exchanged phone numbers. Then things eventually didn’t turn out well. I feel bad that HG has to clean up the mess that we caused for not adhering to his advice. I don’t really know how much more I can share. I am not open to getting to know other people in the blog after that and also have been trying to be less friendly/transparent with my comments to people (as much as a Geyser can). But in the end no real harm was done to me except feeling threatened for a little bit and wondering if I should ask our local Bishop if there’s a lawyer in our church. The threat didn’t materialize because I didn’t do anything wrong and so the accused person could not possibly carry out the threat she made against me.

          1. Violetta says:


            I don’t blame you for being tempted; I’ve often wished I could meet various Tudorites for shopping, horseback-riding, puppy/kitten-cuddling, and of course, drinking (preferably in the Haworth pub where Branwell destroyed his liver).

            In addition to friendships possibly turning sour, there’s always the danger that information might get revealed, accidentally or otherwise, to a stalker ex. As Narcsite gains publicity (I’ve seen it mentioned in more than one blog covering the RF), the likelihood increases that someone might deliberately send a lieutenant here to try to suss out an escaped ex.

            But again, I understand the temptation.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The rule against exchanging information here is a sound one and will never be changed. The clear instruction not to interact off blog is also made for the soundest of reasons. Every time people have failed to follow this instruction, it has resulted in problems for them and others. The emails I receive bear testament to that and they are detailed. I know my kind. Pay heed.

          3. Witch says:


            Yes I understand the temptation too…
            I have no one else in my personal life who is obsessed with narcissism.
            so it can come across like I think “everyone” is a narcissist to people who do not understand narcissism. Even when it comes to people attributing certain behaviours to other things besides narcissism.
            This guy said online that catcalling could be rooted in male biology… I said no, cat calling is a boundary violation and is rooted in narcissism and narcissistic traits.
            I see things very differently now because of what I have learned about narcissism.

            I also understand why it is a risk to interact outside of the blog
            And I’m sorry to hear that MP was threatened by someone who used to frequently interact here.

          4. MP says:

            Thank you Witch and Violetta. For me the blog was like a Twilight zone world where people here know about my past that most people in my real life don’t or didn’t know. I never confided in anyone throughout my childhood about my experiences with my mom because I didn’t think anyone would really understand and I also didn’t want to throw my own mom under the bus even though majority of people who got to know us more knew that my mom was different and even abusive to me. My culture also allows parents a lot of allowance to behave in a very dominant way towards their children. I don’t go around telling people in my present life about the hardships I had in my life because that was never the energy I want our interactions to be. This blog has been like a Twilight zone world where I am able to share things about myself no one else know so I was attached in a way towards the commenters here and I just have to remember this isn’t the real world. Last night we went to a fundraiser dinner which was the first social gathering we went to since the pandemic. Everyone was so nice and pleasant but I was thinking, it’s such a good feeling to be around them but I have no idea about their life or past or whatever situation they have been through or are going through and yet these are the faces that really genuinely make me feel not alone. These are the people that are really part of my life. And sometimes it is healthy to put that kind of boundary between real life and social media life.

          5. JB says:

            Gosh, MP, that must have been scary! I can also understand the temptation to take things offline. There have been many, many times that I have wished the rules were different, but on reflection, I’m actually glad they aren’t. Many of us here have suffered as a result of online interaction with a narcissist, and what I love about this place is that that shouldn’t happen here. I love the anonymity. We can offload and share our experiences, without anyone ever knowing who we are outside of the blog (I find it much easier to open up on certain things, knowing that.) The only problem is, though, any narcissist coming here could use that anonymity to lie through their teeth and then mislead you into God knows what offline! Anyway, I hope you are ok, and am glad nothing major came of it in the end x

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Hence why you do not take matters offline.

          7. MP says:

            Thank you. Just like what HG has taught us in some of his articles. Narcissists love social media because they can create their persona or whatever much easily without much accountability etc. How can we even know if the stories shared are really true? In real life fore example, I go to church and I see someone and I form an opinion on how they carry themselves and then my husband shares a history about the person if that person is nice or a crook and then I get more corroborating info from other people and from all of those I can form an opinion. Online you get judge on how you are able to connect with the people but it doesn’t mean that people really care about you. Some do and some don’t. It’s not always easy to differentiate it. I’m glad nothing like that happened to you. Take care!

          8. JB says:

            MP, I’m not sure if your comment was meant as a reply to mine or not, but I will reply in case it is.

            Yes, online is a tough one as there is so little to go on, compared with real life, as you said. And also the written word is very much open to misinterpretation, which can also lead us to build up a possibly false picture of the person with whom we are communicating! I often rely on feeling, getting a sense of someone, but don’t trust it as much now. I haven’t been threatened by anyone online (thank God), but I have been taken in by somebody online, I came to trust them and they turned out to be a liar. I didn’t see it coming at all, I genuinely thought I was a better judge of character, and it threw me completely that I could get it so wrong. It did give me a kick up the arse though, taught me to practise what I preach – we spend so much time educating kids on the dangers of online interactions, then go and ignore the rules ourselves because we think we are ok, we know what we are doing, etc. But in the end, it could happen to any of us, and we are only human, I guess. But lesson learned here and regularly shared with anyone who will listen! X

          9. MP says:

            Sorry that happened to you JB. You are right about practicing the precautions that we expect kids to have as adults. I also had a discussion with my husband on this issue and I agree with what he said. Online allows people to create an illusion and it’s not reality. Sometimes we can meet genuine people but the most of the time the real friends are the ones that are really part of your life. It’s weird when you meet someone online and then texts you all day nonstop when you haven’t even seen them in person. My real life friends don’t even text me all day or first thing in the morning to say good morning because they have their own lives too and yet they are stable and consistently there through the years.

          10. JB says:

            MP, you’re right about the all-day texting when you haven’t even met in person. It didn’t feel weird at the time though! Felt nice to know someone was there and wanted to be there. Sad really, that we can’t have a friendship like that without it turning out to be a red flag!

          11. MP says:

            Hello JB, so true. I think the anomaly was that the frequency of the interaction is not parallel with the depth of the relationship. I remember my phone buzzing with text messages all day and I had to stop what I was doing to answer. My husband asked me who was it that I was always talking to and I told him a friend from this blog and he asked me if it’s normal that I’m spending so much of my time on someone that I have never even met. That’s another thing, my husband is a Normal, so if you have Normals in your life it could be helpful to get feedback from them because even if they may not be aware of narcissism they might still feel or see things that strike them as weird (red flags).

          12. MP says:

            Hello JB, I forgot to add Red Flags, if you haven’t read it yet it is so extremely helpful.

          13. JB says:

            MP, my husband did exactly the same once, enquiring about how much I was talking to people online, but I just viewed it as his attempts to control me (based on other events as well) and didn’t take too kindly to it. But the fact is, he was right! So I agree with you wholeheartedly xx

          14. JB says:

            Thanks for the book recommendation! I haven’t read it yet, but definitely want to!

          15. MP says:

            You’re welcome JB. The reason I recommended the book is because we can’t always rely on Normals for red flags so it’s best the we know them ourselves. We were watching The Secret and my husband was so touched with the words of wisdom and how the two fell in love and I told him no, I’m seeing all kinds of red flags here and my husband said “I know but can I just enjoy the movie?”

        2. MP says:

          Hello Lickemtomorrow, I understand your curiosity. HG has already fixed the matter. I don’t think that you have met the commenter I was referring to. But basically HG doesn’t recommend that we make a connection with commenters from the blog outside of it. And it’s for our protection. I’ll be taking a little break from the blog. I hope you the best for your learning journey and thanks for our interactions.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi MP, thank you for clarifying a little more around the situation which sounds like it could have become much more serious for you. Rather than prying, I just wanted to raise my concerns for you, and also the impact it might have had on the blog. I’m glad it has been resolved to everyone’s satisfaction, and thank you for reminding me of HGs protection which he institutes to followers and commentors on the blog. That is very reassuring. Especially after concerns which have been raised again (over identities and intentions) over the last couple of days. It is a good idea to follow HGs recommendations, and it’s also hard not to respond to someone reaching out to you. I understand it’s only out of a desire to do what empaths do that we accept such invitations and I have no doubt your heart was in the right place, MP. The problem comes when someone else’s heart isn’t. That being said, I see you have decided to take a break 🙁 I have thoroughly enjoyed our interactions here, and have learned so much from you. Thank you, too, for all you have shared up to now which helps us all, and I appreciate your well wishes. You have a beautiful family to enjoy and hopefully a lovely summer to look forward to as well. As it’s just a little break, I will look forward to seeing you again, and hope for continuing good news in terms of your healing journey <3 xox

          2. MP says:

            Thank you Lickemtomorrow. You have always been very kind and I always enjoy reading your thoughts and experiences. Thank you for being patient when we disagree. I am thankful for our interactions and I just want to say that you are a good mom and thank you for the pieces of advice and assurance you kindly gave me. ❤️❤️❤️

          3. NarcAngel says:


            Despite how it may seem from out interactions and your feelings about them and me, I do wish you and your family the very best and hope that you continue to stay safe.


          4. MP says:


            I just saw this message and even though I said I am on a break I just want to say something about your well wishes.

            What would have been genuinely kind is for you to just retract your false accusation that I was here in the blog arguing while my mom was dying. I have said it so many times that it wasn’t true. I went to my home country alone to take care of her, left my husband and kids here in the US, didn’t meet with any friends out of fear I might spread them TB, and I was the only person who took care of her while I was there to give my cousins a break. There was no internet at her house and I was not even able to Skype with my husband and kids in some days because the only way I got internet connection was when I was doing laundry at the laundromat inside the mall that provided free WiFi. The only time I went active in the blog again was a few days after my mom already died. I was at the funeral and was trying to avoid painful thoughts so I decided to actively comment on the TV show that HG was having people analyze because I needed a distraction. When you tell me with so much conviction in a public forum that I was too busy arguing here while my mom was dying and that people told me to take care of my mom which never happened because she was already dead, I cannot even fully describe how wrong that is. Now people here believe that I have let my mom die because I was too busy arguing in the blog. How can you even wish me well after doing that and without even retracting that and insisting that you were right and I was wrong about what happened. I would never prioritize going on the internet over taking care of a dying person, let alone my own mother. So unless you retract that, I don’t regard your well wishes as sincere.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            MP, I wanted to say that I am sorry to read that you lost your mom. Take care x

        3. MP says:

          Hello LET, I have reread your comment and want to clarify a few things:

          * the accused person was not the one I defended. I defended the one making the accusation by identifying red flags.

          * the person I defended didn’t change my attitude towards the blog.

          I am uncomfortable identifying the accused person and I am also in NC with her so I didn’t want to use her name. But you don’t have anything to worry about because HG has been protecting commenters in the blog and we just have to listen to his recommendation to not connect outside of here.

          1. NarcAngel says:


            Let me state this clearly for you and for everyone:

            I do not believe it to be the case and did not state that you did not care for your mother and ignored her to be on the blog. That is your (incorrect) interpretation.

            The references (and notes of concern from others as well) were in regard to you being on the blog and actively engaging in highly emotional exchanges that were upsetting to you during your PERIOD OF GRIEF, which can encompass a period of time other than the immediate death.

            These are some of your comments and attest to the fact that you were active and continued to pursue blog discussion that upset you during your PERIOD OF GRIEF and NOT that you were neglecting your mother’s care. They indicate effort to stay involved when was not required of you – you chose to participate. Someone other than me even commented to you that they couldn’t imagine giving a crap about being on a blog when their mother died.

            “I am in a Taiwan airport right now on my way home”

            “Oh and before I get accused of lying. I did say earlier that I might not have internet because I’m travelling but the bus I’m on has WiFi that’s why I’m able to reply”

            “I was gone because I was visiting house to house and WiFi is scarce here”

            “I ought now I’m staying with my cousins that I haven’t seen since we were children and I’m here in the bedroom typing this instead of being with them in the dining room right now where I can hear them chat”

            “I just got home from a very long flight and drive. I was exhausted and my kids are all over me so I don’t have time to check in til now. I sent a quick reply earlier as well”.

            These all appear to indicate you felt some sort of urgency or priority to stay active on the blog, so later on a different thread when you approached it as people not standing up for you and being mean to you etc, I thought that untrue and unfair and regarded it as playing victim in that moment because it was your choice to be there. Thus my comment that you could have got off the blog.

            You interpreted “when your mother was dying” as during her immediate care and death. I was not. I was referring to the period of grieving. My apology for not using the term period of grieving. The phrase did not come to me in that moment. I did not think for a minute that you (or anyone on the blog) would interpret the words: when your mother was dying as me indicating that you were furiously keying away on a blog at your mother’s deathbed and ignoring her needs. Anyone who thinks that has cherry picked and not considered the aggregate of my comments.

            I will say it again:

            I do NOT believe that you did not care for your dying mother or attend to her needs.

            I hope this clears up things and ends this for you (and anyone else looking on) so that neither of us are misrepresented moving forward. I stand by my genuine wishes for you and your family whether you accept them or not.


          2. MP says:

            These were all after my mom died. I was being accused of being a narcissist by your friend. I didn’t have my family to support me in my grief and I was being attacked left and right by your friend and accused of things I didn’t do such as gaslighting and twin lines of defense.

            Your previous comments said that “you were urged by others to stick to what was important in attending to your mom”
            “Later you referred to these things upsetting you at a time when your mom was “dying”.

            “poor me, my mother died when I was arguing about it (we’ll stop arguing and leave the blog), poor me.”

            NA you said that I am prone to misinterpreting you. If you keep moving the goal post and changing the meaning of what you said of course you will be misinterpreted. You used the word “dying” which implies she was still alive. Instead of admitting you are wrong you revise what you meant.

            But glad your false accusation is cleared up.

          3. MP says:

            Also NA, you pulled those sentences out of context. I was accused of silent treatment when I wasn’t able to respond to the one accusing me and I have explained there that I am not a narcissist doing a silent treatment as I was accused of.

            Like I said, I was grieving, I had a massive headache and I couldn’t process my emotions, I didn’t have my family and friends to support me at that time, and I was mentally and emotionally wrecked at that time while I was being accused here as a narcissist which also implies that I don’t love my own children, my husband and my mom that passed away. The whole thing was too much for me to handle and I obviously did things that were not wise. But like your advice above, attaching label is damaging and your friend here had no professional license or credentials behind her to passionately call me as a narcissist. But there was no passionate objection from you.

            Anyway, that is it for me as well. I would like to move on. And honestly revisiting it is very overwhelming for me. And you have accused me of playing the victim but you know what, when you speak up for yourself that is not playing the victim. It’s standing up for yourself.

    3. MP says:

      NA, All that I can say is that you are entitled to your personal truth. I am as well and my experience with that person was very toxic and the only reason I have sent HG evidence was because another commenter had an experience and he wanted to gather evidence to protect commenters here. It’s unfair to me that you misrepresent my reasoning as just mere annoyance with the accuser. You don’t know a lot of the important information. If you do not trust me, just stop interacting with me. But do not gaslight my experience. Just like you never apologized for misrepresenting how I spent my time with my dying mom which I actually think is very cruel. You have been very judgmental towards me. All I can say was that you were never there in my mom’s house with me in my home country taking care of her all night because she couldn’t breathe and sleep because of her TB. There wasn’t even internet in her house and yet you made the judgment that I didn’t take care of her because I was here on this blog instead of taking care of her. You can’t always unequivocally assume that your judgments are always correct.

      1. NarcAngel says:


        “It’s unfair to me that you misrepresent my reasoning as just mere annoyance with the accuser. ”

        I didn’t say that. I said the accuser (not you) was not entitled to label someone a dangerous narcissist when THEY (again – not you as were not the accuser) were really just annoyed with the comments of the accused. The accuser then went out of their way to dehumanize others (calling them garbage etc). You offered them not outrage but admiration. If you were to be honest – you were happy to align yourself with the accuser because she was attacking someone you had a personal issue with and not because they needed defending (against the very same behaviours they were dishing out).

        I never apologized to you for misrepresenting how you spent your time with your dying mom because that did not happen. That is a gross misrepresentation and presented completely out of context to what happened. You were urged by others to stick to what was important in attending to your mom and to disregard the things that were upsetting you at that time on the blog. It was out of concern for you, but you remained actively (and prolifically) commenting. Later you referred to these things upsetting you at a time when your mom was dying. I pointed out to you that you chose to ignore the concern and remain embroiled in highly emotional and heated exchanges, so it didn’t seem fair to present as victim afterword. It was your choice. And you’re doing it again here to garner sympathy and misrepresent ME and what actually happened.

        You have a history on the blog of misinterpretation not only with me, but especially where I am concerned. You almost automatically assume what I say to be negative because you appear to base the message on who said it rather than what was actually said.( An example being offering admiration for name calling from one individual but labelling it vicious dehumanization from others). I have offered positivity to you and your family also, (was heartfelt in offering my condolence on your mother’s death, was genuinely happy for you and expressed it when your family got your puppy, complimented your husband’s handling of his ex, are but a few examples), but you conveniently forget those interactions and latch onto those you incorrectly interpret (btw- incorrectly interpreting something on your part does not equate to me gaslighting you) and then misrepresent me to others as uncaring and cruel. They can make up their own minds.

        Don’t want to interact? Fine by me. I won’t miss having to break down for you where you’ve jumped to conclusions yet again due to your missing the message and focusing on the messenger.

        1. MP says:

          This is part of what you wrote to me in that thread:

          “ Poor me, no one stood up for me (untrue), poor me, my mother died when I was arguing about it (well stop arguing and leave the blog), poor me, ”

          I was not arguing in the blog while my mom was dying. What you wrote implied that my mom died under my care while I was too busy arguing in the blog which was not accurate and I have explained it so many times to you but you have no empathy.

          I don’t need anyone’s pity. I wa a just pointing out how callous you can be to a few of us. That is why I understood WiserNow’s adverse reaction to you because I also saw how you treated her through the years. I don’t need to prove anything to you as I really don’t care anymore what you think about me. If I was the kind of person who always strive to be pitied my husband would not be with me right now because that is what he hated the most about my MR sister, and that’s one of the reasons I categorize him as a Normal because he doesn’t tolerate people feeling like victims.

          I don’t care about your perception of my history in the blog. I have my opinions on your history here too but I don’t care to spend time articulating it because quite honestly you have no meaning to me.

          Have a good life.

          1. WiserNow says:

            MP and NarcAngel,

            Well said. I agree with your comments. While I respect NarcAngel and I agree with her comments sometimes, I also find she jumps to conclusions and has a ‘black and white’ way of looking at things. There are times when it has been more of a ‘battle’ than a ‘debate’ when trying to ‘converse’ with her.

            I am agreeing with you here because I actually know what it’s like to have parents who are narcissists and who are unwell and elderly. The option of ‘no contact’ is either very difficult or impossible.

            It is a difficult situation because you are very aware they need your care and support, and at the same time you are also aware that they are slowly hijacking your life and abusing you in the process. The fact remains that they are your parent and you *still* feel empathy for them and cannot walk away, not only because you know they need you and not only because you ask yourself how you’ll live with yourself and your conscience if you don’t support them. It’s also because they are your family and you love them regardless. Love does exist and it’s not just because you are a ‘love devotee’. There is a bond and it’s real.

            Having a narc parent is not an easy thing to live with. It is very difficult and takes all of your patience and goodwill sometimes, even though you are complaining through clenched teeth on the inside, asking yourself things like, “does my resentment mean I’m narcissistic myself?”…. “if I do this, they’ll only get comfortable with manipulating me even more” …. “if I don’t do this, they will feel lost and alone” …. “what should I do?”.

            Coming to this blog and ‘venting’ or talking about it or commenting in certain ways *does not* mean that you are seeking pity or playing the victim or not learning about what HG is telling us. Sometimes, this blog is the only place to say what you truly mean and to try to unravel all the internal contradictions and questions you have.

            In many articles and recommendations I have seen about recovering from ptsd and narc abuse, the advice is: seek ongoing reliable support from someone you can trust who will understand and validate your experience.

            Not every ACON has someone they can trust unconditionally to speak with complete honesty about all the conflicting things they have going on with them. Sometimes this blog and the information from the commenters here does this for us.

            Does that mean we can be labelled as ‘victims’ or as though we are seeking ‘pity’? No. It means we are working through things that are difficult that we haven’t been able to work through effectively anywhere else.

            When I have had romantic partners, friends or relationships with narcissists, it has been relatively easier (not easy or straightforward – just easier) to decide to go ‘no contact’. It’s still difficult and leaves the emotional impact, however, there is not the same ‘obligation’ as having an elderly or unwell parent.

            Does this negate or contradict HG’s advice? No, it doesn’t. HG informs us in a practical and effective way about things that actually work in real life. He gives us clarity and defines things in a way that makes it absolutely clear.

            The thing with real life is that real situations are messy and unclear and take time to change and evolve. Parents who were born during depressions or wars, who lived through strife and poverty, who needed to migrate to different countries, or who lived through abusive family situations themselves – these are all things we have to deal with as ACONS.

            We need to learn how to deal with them effectively and that is what we are doing here when we learn from HG and from the comments of others.

          2. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow, thank you for your message. I agree. I hope that you have a wonderful weekend. I will be taking a break. Don’t let anything rattle you or take peace from you. Coincidentally in spite of my day starting off not in a positive way, it ended up nicely as each member of our family won a raffle prize. It has never happened to us before. Like I said, there’s real life and social media life. People behave in a terrible way in social media and can get ten thousand likes from their fans but have that same person behave that way in real life and they wouldn’t get approval. I think that erosion of empathy is not an excuse to be a complete jackass to anyone. And no one should be shamed for the way they handled their grief. It’s just a really jackass move that a person with empathy wouldn’t do even to someone they dislike. It’s so easy to do that through social media but I bet these people wouldn’t have any guts telling my husband or my relatives who were there with me at the funeral that I wasn’t affected by my mom’s death or that I should have grieved a certain way that she approves or that my grief was not genuine. So I learned to just take the things in social media like a grain of salt. Take care WiserNow and thank you for our interactions and also for being calm with our debates even though I can get heated with arguments you pull back and accommodate and so I do the same thing so we have had disagreements but we never disrespected each other. ❤️❤️❤️

          3. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            You’re welcome and thank you also. I appreciate our interactions too. I have found your comments to be honest as well as level-headed and open-minded. It’s been a pleasure to interact with you 🙂

            Congratulations on winning the raffle prizes. That’s a positive way to end the weekend. I hope you have a lovely weekend too and also an enjoyable week ahead. Stay peaceful and calm too MP and please feel free and welcome to return and keep commenting here. Best wishes to you and your whole family ❤️❤️❤️

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Good of you to allow MP to return and comment on my blog.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Ooh, HG. Quite right too, Sir 🙂

          6. WiserNow says:


            Since you have graciously reassured NarcAngel by saying you don’t regard her “conduct as being problematic to the integrity of the blog” and said she was welcome to “continue to comment as you have”. . .

            . . . it seems reasonable to me that you would also welcome both MP and myself to do the same, since our conduct has been respectful of you and your blog and ultimately has not proved “problematic to the integrity of the blog” either, over and above what NarcAngel has said or done.

            While I realise this is ‘your blog’, are you saying each individual must measure every sentence they utter according to whether it will meet with your approval