Protection
I am just a baby in your arms. I am fragile, brittle and vulnerable. You see I was broken when I was so, so young. I did not know any different and all I wanted was to be told that I was good. I did everything I could to please them but it was never deemed enough. I don’t know why I could not make them love me but it just did not happen. Perhaps if I had tried harder. I know it is my fault really but I did not know any better. They took something from me, I still do not know what it really is, but I think you do. I think you hold the answer because of who you are.
I try to be a good person, I really do but there is just something that stops me from being that decent and compassionate person. I see what you and people like you do and I cannot help but wish I was the same. Sometimes I want it so much it makes me do things I should not do because I cannot control the jealousy that rises and makes me do those Bad Things. Believe me, I fight against it but I have not had the strength to defeat the wickedness but I have you now don’t I?
You will shield me and give me the fortitude I require to complete my journey to redemption. Everything that has happened before was borne out of me lacking you. Those things that I have done, well, I am not proud of them but I was weak and knew no better. I did not have you to lead and guide me. The others, you see, those others promised me that they would take care of me but they were just pretenders and charlatans who took from me and left me twisted and beaten in the dust.
Sometimes I had to fight back. That was when I struck out at them. I did not want to, truly I did not want to do those things, but sometimes I was given no choice. I know all that has gone now because you are here. You are the person I have waited for for so long. I believe in you and how you can save me. You are my caretaker, my salvation and my rock. I look to you and you give me such hope. You show me that there is a better way, a road that leads to salvation.
It is a road that will take me away from the Badlands and the darkness. I understand the road may be long, it may wind through difficult places but ultimately, with you holding my hand, I know that I will reach that place where I need not be afraid any longer. I need not hurt and lash out but instead I can harness the real goodness that is somewhere deep inside me.
You told me that it is there and I believe you. You know about these things. That is the way you have been made. You are the carer, the healer and the peacemaker. You must understand why it is that you are so special to me. You are the only one who truly understands what is to be me and you are the only one who can save me.
I will place my heart in your hands and let you care for it. I have been broken, I have been broken for far too long, a shattered and fractured creature who has had to endure living this way without any hope of redemption, until you came along. Please, make me a better person. Please care for me and nurse me and hold my hand when the demons come. I look to you and only you and in those optimistic eyes of yours I find absolution.
All I want is to be loved. It is not too much to ask is it. I am a noble yet broken person and you hold the power to make me what I want to be, what I should be. I am like a baby in your arms. I am vulnerable yet with you there anything becomes possible. I know you will love me, care for me and protect me. You will save me. You are the only one.
You fall for this speech.
Every time.
86 thoughts on “Protection”
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Yes, I am always fooled. I can not leave without care, help, support.
“My” narcissist would never say WORLD that they need care. It only gives suggestions, directions, and gives me direction. Once he choked when I told him I had helped him and that he was in a terrible condition. He laughed at me: “Ha ha ha, but your ego is big, that’s not why I came to you.”
Or … he can so perfectly pretend to be in need of care. Maybe it’s just a foreplay, a catch?
I’m never sure.
These 3 characters:
1. A charming boy, contrite, ashamed and waiting to be rescued. No sex!
2. A divine being who bestows his kindness, cleverness and perceptiveness. God of sex.
3. A simpleton and a vulgar boor. Pimp at the brothel. Junkie, unscrupulous.
they interpenetrate all the time, with varying intensity. Each character dominates in exactly that order. Currently I am dealing with a 3 – tip hoovering.
There are also sub-characters of the character 😀
Each of the characters has a name – I gave them their names. Depending on who I am interacting with, this is the name I use: “Get lost, bastard. Can you say (character name 2 here) to come? I’m not going to discuss with you.” I think he liked it, because sometimes he himself uses: “Keep doing this and you will know the real one (character name 3 here)”.
He hasn’t completely gone away, though he’s already involved elsewhere. He hasn’t completely disappeared yet, and I miss him already … Remnants.
It was great to play with illusions again. They are so real that they hurt. It was similar in terms of dynamics, but completely different than 17 years ago (14 since the end of the relationship). He is different, bigger – and I am different, stronger.
The only thing that surprised me was that this relationship lasted so long, I predicted about 3 months, and it was 1.5 years. It passed quickly.
I feel regret and relief. The regret is stronger.
It’s time to wake up from a waking dream 🙂
Hello Joa,
What you describe in terms of the different characters shown by your narcissist sounds very much like the push and pull of the sustained devaluation. The narcissist will behave as character three then offer you a respite period by behaving as character two. Character one sounds like a pity play manoeuvre designed to assert control over you and reel you back in. I had a look through the devaluation playlist on YouTube and think the following two videos in particular will be helpful.
https://youtu.be/f1MQg_Q7L6I
https://youtu.be/KEstqez-70I
I’m sorry this person still impacts you Joa and you still experience a feeling of loss. Working your way through the articles here on the blog and the videos on YouTube will help you better understand exactly what is going on. Once you do, it will be easier to implement a solid No Contact regime and prevent those hoovers that are stopping you healing and moving forward.
You are in the right place Joa, I’m glad you found HG’s blog.
I read your comment again this morning Joa, it’s interesting that he refers to character 3 as ‘the real one’. He let it slip there. Character 3 who you see as unscrupulous and the ‘pimp at the brothel’ IS the real him. The other two are just masks designed to draw you in and then hold you in place.
Please keep reading HG’s articles because like many of us, you will find your own situation described amongst them. Once you do, you will find it easier to lock down your No Contact so this man can’t harm you further. Xx
Will be hard. It seems to me that I understand everything perfectly. And despite understanding, I don’t want to close it.
My emotional thinking is my defense against the immense sadness that overwhelms me when I realize the truth.
Idealizing, coloring the whole world with colors, painting this beautiful bubble in my own way – this is my specialty. The world is supposed to be beautiful, radiate brightness, burst with laughter and smell like vanilla. The world is supposed to be WHAT I WANT IT TO BE – ha ha ha, how narcissistic, right?
I don’t want the truth. I’ve been to this terrible place before and I don’t want to go back there. The cruelty of the world hurts – the suffering of people and animals is too terrible for my psyche. I prefer to lie to myself, even knowing that I am deceiving myself.
As for “my” narcissist. THIS moment has just come. Cool. I am at a crossroads. Now, I could close this relationship in the relatively least painful way. Now I can go one way or the other.
I’m wondering.
Is it better to live in a beautiful illusion or in a gray, boring and often dangerous world? Hmmm … For me, there’s no choice.
Inverted Narcissus. Heh.
Joa,
I really feel for you here. A lot of what you say resonates with me.
You seem to visualise a lot. I think that when you remember you don’t just remember, you relive. That’s a real gift, but it works against you here. When you miss the narcissist and you sit and replay memories I think they are so vivid, that you can almost feel him in the room. It’s a poisoned chalice, if you are anything like me, and I suspect you are, that sadness can be all consuming.
You say you waited for 13 years but in the meantime you got on with life. I know what you mean by that. Some people sink then fall apart, they break. Some just keep going. They behave normally, go to work, see friends, laugh, everything appears normal, no one would know. Underneath it though that ache just doesn’t subside. In some ways I think it’s easier for those who do break. They grind to a halt and they are forced to seek help, discuss with someone at least. Those that carry on living their life as if all is well, no one helps them, because no one sees.
Honestly Joa, if you waited for 13 years, knowing he would come back or you would summon him back, you weren’t in No Contact. You weren’t living your life. You were pretending to live your life. Stuck on emotional pause. You deserve more.
You are correct. This isn’t how life / the world is supposed to be. Far from it. Better to have a day of wonderful than a lifetime of average. I get it. The problem is that with the narcissist, they aren’t even the one day of wonderful. That is your creation and their manipulation. You are painting him in those colours and he is just feeding in to your shared illusion. You admit you idealise and you lie to yourself. We all did that Joa, to a greater or lesser extent. It doesn’t work, not long term. Happiness is found in reality, not in fantasy, no matter how tempting it may be to stay within your own illusion.
https://narcsite.com/2021/04/12/utopia-9/
I think ‘The Addiction Triple Package’ from The Knowledge Vault would really help you. HG introduces this in the video I have attached for you below. The package really opened my eyes and it got through to me when I was in a very similar place to where you are now. Many empaths here view The Addiction Package as being groundbreaking. I agree with them.
https://youtu.be/E8qO2t46twM
Timing wise, you have an opportunity here. Many readers on the blog will be able to identify with where you are and what you are going through. Give HG’s material time to sink in, give the other readers here the chance to help, give yourself the opportunity to find a happier way forward. Xx
Joa ~ very nicely said. I share the same thoughts. Why can’t the narcissist join me in my world where there is no malice? I cannot turn that part of me off. There is so much to enjoy. It sucks to not have an IP that can see that. It’s not easy to untangle in my situation with a lesser. I let it go on far too long. I live in a rural community of lessers that are definitely my lessers lieutenants. I’d love to just be me and not have to worry with the punks. Be nice or go away type of life.
Joa, it gets less painful if you push through the initial pain, the right now part, and learn everything you can. With understanding things look, and become, more manageable, less boring and less dangerous in the real world. The illusion will only keep you trapped. Stay here, as you have been, and hang on, it really will better, HG’s work works, it really does. We are all rooting for your success and we are here as much as you need. Xx
Part of it is as you write. Sometimes, when I talk to him, I feel as if he is next to, or even inside me (in fact, it is so, after all, it’s my idealization, it’s my original interpretation of the narcissist). When he sent the first photo, I immediately smelled him. Ah, this familiar wave from head to toe, all senses ready 😊
When it comes to memories from the “golden period” (although it was not a typical, candy golden period, rather a track full of obstacles from the beginning) – I rarely mention it. Sometimes a memory will come up by itself, along with a smell, a feeling … I buried it many years ago. That romantic narcissist is long dead and has no chance of returning. Died. Honestly, no real funeral for me was as painful and “real” as the symbolic one I celebrated several times.
I completely separate that romantic person / illusion from the narcissist I am currently in contact with. The same shell, a bit licked with the sign of the times, completely foreign (though the symptoms were familiar), which I was getting to know anew. Not very nice interior, terrible interior, it smells of sulfur 😊And unfortunately much more fascinating than the previous ones. That illusion has been replaced with a new illusion, albeit a bit flawed.
Sadness – it has always been with me. It was not the narcissist who introduced him. Not this one, at least. He was already there long before him. Thanks to this sadness, I can see beautiful things and appreciate little joyful moments. Sadness is part of me. I like him as much as I laugh. I like my melancholy and my wildness.
Maybe I wrote it wrong that I was waiting for him. It sounds like I just thought about him for years. Not. I was living my life normally, I had to put it back together. I just always had the inner conviction that life would come full circle and we would meet in one way or another. I even staked time – I thought I would get back in about 20 years. Strange, but I was convinced of it. I was surprised he showed up so early.
Pause – yes, but only when it comes to male-female relationships. I haven’t been with anyone else after him, and I won’t. I was throwing everyone away with the eyes of the Basilisk: “Don’t even come near!” – Hahaha. Even though I hadn’t had any problems attracting men to me before.
These matters will only interest me when my child leaves the family nest. I know who I would bring, so I won’t do it for my daughter. I always say that I will go crazy – in old age 🙂
“My” narcissist asked about it many times, both shocked and fascinated: “But why ??? You didn’t even try. I even tried …” Another narcissist from his family was also obsessed with asking the same question over and over, he couldn’t understand, as if he envied “my” narcissist – “Why? But why? He always hits, such women, that’s why he never got hurt.”
I have several reasons. Especially the memory of her own childhood (my mother is interdependent, she never knew how to be alone, she always came down … I won’t say who and she had no strength to leave !!!). I didn’t want this for my daughter. I know what type of men I prefer and that will never change. I won’t jump over this, that’s for sure. I am not interested in ordinary … boring. And even if I was interested in such a thing, I would drive him crazy 🙂
Independence is also important to me, even though it’s apparent, but I feel safer (as long as I can remember, I’ve always secured myself. Heh, “my” narcissist does the same, and even claims it’s essential). Distrust of the other sex is the main trait of him and mine.
There are other small reasons as well. And there is a MAIN reason. Which I had never told “my” narcissist, and which he wanted so much to hear. No man has attracted my interest in all these years. No. Unless … he had a detail in appearance or character that reminded me of “my” narcissist.
I live normally, I have a successful life, there is no need to dramatize 🙂 There is always something in life, I lose one, gain another. Although… the peace has begun to bore me a bit.
My shell is thick. He failed to break it, but he drilled a hole. Closed, locked, no access, I put a flap over the opening. I will lift it sometimes 😊
He showed up too early. Maybe try later if there are the right circumstances and willingness to do so. I am then able to go back to where we left off and submit to his revenge.
For now, I still have a job to do. I am glad that he started to help me in this task (financially) – I do not know what he is investing for, but I am using it. I will find out over time.
Snail 🙂
Joa,
Thank you for such an honest response. The way you communicate is so raw, so honest and it resonates to such an extent, you are actually taking me back into my own ensnarement.
I experience things very similarly. I too have remembered the narc so vividly that I smelt him in the room, sensed him in the room. Your explanation for this is a good one, he is inside you because we do generate the illusion ourselves. In fact, far more of the illusion comes from us than from them in my view. It’s likely part of why narcissists are drawn to empaths, only the empath feels to such an extent that the joint illusion becomes so stable. Each drawn into the other.
You describe the first version of your narcissist, the picture that you see and the memories of him that arrive unprompted. I too always visualise the narc as he was in a single photograph. During the ensnarement I too realised that that person had left. He wasn’t coming back. The new version had elements of the first. I saw fleeting glimpses, but only glimpses. Version 2 was still kind, he was still my person, but he was not the same.
I too was continuing with my own life. I missed him during the silent treatments and disappearances, the sadness was always bubbling under the surface, but to all intents and purposes I lived my life very convincingly without him. I too always knew that he would come back round. He would show up again and all would be as it was before. That should be a warning in itself! Who does that?! The addiction glosses over it though, it gets fed and screams for more. If I lowered my No Contact, I could likely tell you when he would show up next. I’d be correct to within a week.
I realise now that this isn’t him unable to stay away from me. This is simply in response to a prompt. Key dates yes, but there are also key conversations, that took place at certain times. He will hoover in line with those. On the shelf then off the shelf, prompt, no prompt, not as romantic as I had first thought. That imagined loyalty comes from us too. You are clearly fiercely loyal Joa, he isn’t the same, you are cut from different cloth x
Yes to the melancholy. I know what this means. I think this stems from the sheer level of empathy the empath has. If my day is mundane, too much small talk or too much tasking, I crave something deeper. Darker I suppose. A need to feel, but it’s a need to feel raw. On days where I haven’t interacted at a deep enough level then I feel the need to sink. To drop my mood if you like. It sounds almost like a need for fuel. It’s similar I think. It’s based on emotional content but it isn’t to power me. It’s more just wanting to feel something. This might be similar to what you describe in terms of enjoying / needing the pain.
For me, I don’t relate this to pain from my past. I relate it to the disconnectedness of us as humans. We talk, yet often we don’t communicate. Life got busy and it moved online. The human race has never been so connected, yet never before have we been so disconnected. I feel through music. I have a dark playlist, not dark evil, more, heavy or emotional. I sink in line with that when I need to sink. It works for me.
The narcissist magnifies all of our emotions. I realise this now. They are a drug, like any other drug. The more we feel, good or bad, the more we need to feel. Our emotional capacity is so very broad I think, sometimes we just don’t know what to do with it all. There’s so much space to fill, the narcissist presents himself as the only one capable of filling it. The reality is, that emotional depth is all ours. It was ours to start with and it will be ours to the last breath. We just need to find more worthy people to spend our emotions on. Maybe we take a leaf from the Ultra’s book. Spread our nets wider, consciously invest our emotions and our empathy in more people, exercise our empathy that way, more positively. An empathy matrix haha!
Joa, it’s both pleasure and pain reading your thoughts. I think you can appreciate what I mean by that ! Xx
Thanks for the movies. I was listening – I was reading. Unfortunately, the translations of the films are quite primitive, it is hard to watch – read. Language barrier – I am the last generation of old rules in one of the countries of the former communist bloc. We learned Russian and German, not English.
The fact is also that the text hits me the most. I love reading and writing. Vision, sound – great – but the text allows my thoughts to flow so much, very freely, to discover different perspectives, make my own analyzes and experience dazzles, and above all, to sort and organize.
I had No Contact for 13 years. I will not say that I am not tired now, there are descents, but I entered it consciously. I had a choice.
At the very beginning of the hoover, “my” narcissist said, “It’s a very sick relationship.”
Me: “I agree, it’s a sick report and you know exactly how it will end.”
As long as I can hold boundaries without having a negative impact on my real life, it’s okay. As long as I know that my daughter is safe, it’s okay. This relationship hurts me, but builds me up. I need it.
“You finally become what you were before you met him,” my friend No. 1 said.
“You’ve always been too good if out of this world. You’re finally becoming normal” – Friend No. 2.
And I see a positive change. Though I have to watch out for the border when I start to roll downhill.
Me: “You’re like the best psychologist.”
“My” narcissist: “You’re not the first person to tell me that. I treat everyone except myself (ironic laughter). It’s not me who does it, you do it yourself.”
Anyway … my world is full of narcissists, they seek understanding, they are everywhere, they stick like turnips. I can work with them so that both sides feel satisfied and benefit.
Only “my” narcissist challenges me. Maybe because he chose a different strategy. For the rest of the narcissists, I am “the best” – the favorite adoptive daughter, the boss’s best employee, my narcissist friend’s best friend, the former narcissist’s greatest woman, etc.
Only for “my” narcissist I am the worst, ha ha ha 🙂 This resistance. This resistance. This resistance. Makes me crazy 🙂
I am also very glad that I found the HG blog. Something beautiful. Soul balm. Efficiently organized. Dangerously safe, ha ha ha 🙂
Joa,
You’re welcome for the YouTube videos. I know what you mean, I’m a reader too. I take in information better when I read.
It sounds like the hoovers are getting through your No Contact and your narcissist keeps finding a way to repeatedly draw fuel from you. This will wear you down if it keeps happening. Full No Contact is the only way to get him out of your system for good.
The hoovers will re open old wounds and raise your Emotional Thinking so that maintaining No Contact becomes more difficult. The danger is that the regret will start to take over. He will take up residence in your mind. HG’s book No Contact might be a good place to start Joa. You can get it on Amazon. It might be worth going back to the beginning and ensuring you understand exactly what No Contact is and why it is so crucial for your recovery.
I might be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you have been fighting yourself for 13 yrs to try and stay away from him. It doesn’t have to be that way. HG has all the material here to make sure that you get rid of your narcissist both physically (as I think you have done) but equally as importantly, mentally.
You are clearly very strong willed. You must be to keep up the fight for so long, it’s time for a break. You deserve a break. Xx
13 years without contact. 13 years … faithfully waiting for him. That’s the truth.
I always knew he was coming back, even when I didn’t know what narcissism was.
I am his. And he is mine. That’s how it works.
I’m not interested in his girlfriend, wife who was in the meantime. It doesn’t matter to me. He has his life outside of me. I have my life outside of it.
We can’t be together, it’s obvious. I reject him and he rejects me. I reject subconsciously. He rejects it openly. They both deceive themselves by doing the other way around.
I wasn’t fighting with myself. I just lived my life, certain it would come one day. I’m still sure we’ll meet in X time. Although he is currently busy with the new IPPS and we will soon lose our current contact.
I miss him when I laugh, when I am happy. When I know something would amuse him about his twisted sense of humor. He misses the moments when he could be proud of his child.
I do not miss him in times of sadness. I don’t need it. I am doing on my own. I even prefer to be alone then.
I NEVER initiate a contact. “Mine” and other narcissists always come by themselves.
Will I ever reject it, whether I like it or not? It will probably be like that one day. But not now. He must wait too. Or maybe we’ll never see it.
Regret – no. I don’t regret my happiness or my pain. Both are beautiful emotions.
SAD – has been at the bottom of my soul for as long as I can remember (although I laugh a lot and infect others). And I remember a lot, starting with the branches of trees swaying above me when I was placed in the cradle in the garden. Family, friends joke that I am a walking encyclopedia of memories 🙂 Completely opposite to “my” narcissist who erases memories.
When I asked about his childhood memories, he said that he consciously annihilates them, because that was HIS CHOICE once. I understand that.
My choice was different.
Joa, I’m enjoying reading your thought processes here and in particular the way you describe the three characters. I have a strange feeling HG might be able to relate to these. We see all these characters in his articles, which at different times draw empathy, awe, and also disgust. I think you are very insightful to not just be aware, but also interact with these different aspects of the narcissist’s character. To the point of being able to call them out.
The fascination with the narcissist continues, and it is clear from your post that it does with you, too. The dream can eventually be woken up from but sometimes we have to fight our way out of it.
Remnants will linger.
Thank you, I wish I could write in my native language. Significant simplifications and sometimes distortions arise.
I’m glad to be able to write a bit here. Though I shouldn’t, it’s dangerous. But in real life, I can’t afford it, so it pours out of me.
It may be weird, but I like each of these characters. Each fulfills a different need – a warm, caring mother, a best friend and faithful listener, a psychological masochist (and even a psychological sadist). I got soaked with it when I was a child and unfortunately it is somewhere at the bottom of me. Hidden deep, guarded and constantly pacified so that it does not come out. With “my” narcissist, I can partially release it (to certain limits that I accept).
Fascination – yes. This place is mesmerizing too.
Fight – hmmm … I can “educate” and correctly arrange my emotions, but they will always be inside me.
I’m like a bomb. I can explode pink happiness with sparkling glitter and fluffy clouds or cumulative aggression. He can set both on fire.
It’s like the inner fight between good and evil 🙂
You have a way with words 🙂 I enjoy reading them. They touch me deeply.
And your descriptions are relatable and true.
Many of us were soaked in the brine of narcissism as children, and sometimes the need that created in us escapes. It is masochistic, in a sense, and the narcissist is a sadist. He wants to punish us and we want to be punished. We are the two halves that make up the whole. And it is a battle. HG calls it an addiction. I agree.
The fact is, the narcissist needs us more than we need them. Where we have an addiction, their survival depends on what we can supply. The difference lies in the fact they can discard us any time they like for another source of fuel. We are left as the empty vessel once they have drained us.
Here you will find all the answers. And your expression in English for me is perfect. It gets to the heart of things in a way many English speakers can’t. I do not know how the siuation in your native country affects you, or how this may make things dangerous for you with your narcissist. But, I am very glad you are here and please take care.
We are addicted to the narcissist. Your words express that experience beautifully. The next step is to deal with the reality of what that means. Keep reading, Joa.
I do not perceive what is happening in the context of punishment. His punishment hurts but I enjoy it. So what’s the punishment?
Narcissists are puffed up and convinced of their uniqueness, they treat people as utility items, but in fact they are also tools in our hands. It’s not narcissism that makes me suffer. This is what I ALLOW for. I cause myself suffering, and he is the perfect tool.
Sadism and masochism are the reverse side of the same coin. Narcissists are masochists too. I am a sadist, feeding my masochism. He’s a masochist, hurting me, knowing I want it, and irritating that he can’t reach me. It is very fluid.
Addiction. Oh yes! Both sides feed each other.
Rejection. It hurts the most. But I am not an empty vessel. A vessel full of pain, despair, sadness – it is still a full vessel. It takes some time to re-tint dark contents pink, but that always happens. Resignation, numbness is then needed – to recover.
I have the feeling that I am already trained in soothing pain. This is a completely different stage of the relationship. In fact – more honest on both sides.
I read, I read – with bated breath 😊
So interesting to read your thoughts again, Joa. I do understand them, and you have given a deep impression of how both narcissist and empath are in thrall of one another. That is how it is. And you seem to relish being caught up in it. You also seem to think you can handle it and find meaning in all aspects of the narcissistic relationship. I can certainly relate to the highs and lows, how they fed my addiction and ultimately kept me in place. Eventually, though, I had to realize the win was always going to go to the narcissist, and I didn’t want to lose any more. I didn’t want to lose myself. I had better things to do with my life. Better things than being the petrol pump at a gas station on the highway of narcissism. I refuse to romanticize my experience any longer. That is something that will definitely feed into emotional thinking and a desire to continue to engage with the narcissist. I have moments of weakness, but I only need to think back to how he humiliated me, they humiliated me, and moving on becomes easy then. I used to think the humiliation was something I had to accept, mostly because I underestimated my own value. Not any more. I hope you can get to a place where you are able to move on from your narcissistic entanglement. And I understand in many ways you value the experience. But, something must have brought you here.
In this game / fight, both sides will be lost. Or both sides win. It depends on how you look at it.
We’ll both lose something.
We’ll both gain something.
It’s not me who will go away. He will go away. He will do – no contact 🙂
All his ex-women are buried like mice. He won’t achieve it with me. It was not so and it will not be so. For what reason?
Why am I supposed to hide? Let him go to his hole where he has been sitting for so many years.
This world is as much mine as his. I don’t mind his presence. If he is disturbed by my presence – let him disappear.
I came here because I am interested in my own development. I came here because I like to learn. I came here because it is interesting. I came here because finally there is someone who understands. I came here because I can tell you about what I must remain silent about in other places.
And … it’s good to help in the ongoing crusade, ha ha ha 🙂
———
It was my little inner narcissist speaking. In fact, I am more flexible. I decide on my moves and moves taking into account the current circumstances. If it is necessary to escape, I will.
Although I do not think 😉
Once again, enjoy reading your thoughts and also your reasoning.
It counters some of what HG has told us, to do with winning and losing, and at some point we all thought we had made gains with the narcissist. It’s clear we were under an illusion to think that. But you seem to have your own perspective which no doubt challenges the narcissist and maintains the status quo of your relationship. There is an undoubted strength of character you display, and I’m not surprised you are a beacon to narcissists in that respect. The fact you have a great deal of insight into their thinking and way of being would likely keep the Lesser variety of narcissist away. They would not be able to cope with your brilliance in being able to discern their manipulations. What is unfortunate to my way of thinking is that there is no way to escape when you relish the experience so much. And I have to ask the question about control. It seems you feel able to apply control, as much as you accept to be controlled. The narcissist will generally not wait for your acceptance. He will want to control and dominate, even more so if he senses a challenge. Ultimately, there will be a need to crush you. So I wonder how so far you appear to have avoided that fate? I think if you put your mind to it, you will escape. For now I’ll be interested to see where your journey takes you.
I derive tangible profits from this contact. Financial benefits for our child. Something that I could not achieve through offices, courts and lawyers for 13 years. I have no qualms. I treat it as debt collection. A lot of work, on other levels than financial, but the effect is satisfactory, and even over-standard.
He crushed me once. But I stood upright. As he walked away, he said (as if to himself) that I was “a few rungs too high”. Coming back: “Sometimes I envy you.”
I will not run away. He’s set for quick goals, quick wins, quick knockouts. He has a set strategy but must have those little wins along the way. I act in a more perspective, I look forward to many years. I am give him small victories, and I even like it when it wins. My goals count for me.
His loss would be my bitter win …
Sometimes I get lost (emotions), but then I find my way.
“Tough! Since I’ve studied H.G. Tudor I know better. Here’s a ball cap with ‘Fuck that sky high’ on it. Look up that website or don’t. Definitely wear it though.” I’d rather be utterly alone than hear this from a grown ass, middle aged person. My maternal bone has been broken. I don’t have the fortitude to nurture and care for folks like I used too. What little that remains is reserved for my offspring, the young amongst us and of course critters.
SParham……loving it…..”critters”…..laughing.
When you see the mask drop, and it does, a different character appears and it is gobsmacking and a loss for words to see/watch a chameleon at work. No care and no empathy becomes very apparent very quickly.
My ex used his version of this speech on me many times when he needed to get control back. His version was quite similar to this also. Big f-ing baby. And I would even say, “But you’re an adult now so…”, to no avail. But he was quick to point out when others weren’t taking their personal responsibility for some situation. Asshole.
Interesting. If you are suggesting that narcissists are beyond redemption, does that point to the existence of God and Satan with narcissists being created to fulfill a special role in bringing about personal growth in people and shaping history? The Bible suggests that some people are destined not to be saved and were deliberately created to serve God’s larger purposes (promoting numerous deceptions to force people to actively choose to believe and testing believers’ faith with fire). Narcissists seem ideally suited to this role.
Would you want to spend eternity with a Creator who deliberately created some people not to be saved?
I’m OK with it. Each choice has consequences. I always ask what would the alternatives be?
For example, in Old Testament times God commanded the Jews not to intermarry and to commit genocide on occasions. What would be have happened if God did not give these commands? The Jews would have blended, compromised and eventually completely given up their faith meaning that there would not have been a religious community in place 2000 years ago willing and able to receive Jesus and nobody after that time would have be saved. The two options in this case are that some people are saved or nobody is saved. The first option seems a better choice to me.
Narcissists are devoid of truth and love so, once we get past the pain of our encounter with a narcissist we have the potential to develop a much deeper understanding of truth and love. Perhaps God has a plan for people who encounter a narcissist to develop a deeper understanding of truth and love to spread this truth and love widely to save many.
I can’t say that it is absolutely impossible for a narcissist to be saved but they don’t seem very receptive to spiritual thinking but, as always, it is in God’s hands. Anyway, there are plenty of non-narcissists who reject Jesus so miss out on salvation. Given that so many non-narcissists choose not to take up the offer of salvation, is it really such a big issue that a few people are destined not to be saved?
Went looking for information on the doctrine of election and found this by spurgeon.
Give it a read knowing what you know about narcs and tell me what you think about the opening?… seems to sound narcissistic lol
https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/sermons/how-to-meet-the-doctrine-of-election/#flipbook/
I don’t see it yet
Hi Paul,
First of all, I can’t answer your question! I’m not religious. I can’t answer from a religious standpoint but I recently stumbled across a similar idea presented online so can comment a little with regards to narcissism.
Narcissism is a defence mechanism first and foremost. In the formative years if a child with a predisposition towards narcissism experiences a lack of control environment / abuse particularly by the mother then the narcissism steps in to protect the child. What I find interesting is how the narcissism does this, and what we then see in the core behaviours of the adult narcissist.
The narcissism starts out in some ways like an imaginary friend (not HG’s words) which later develops into the false self. The child feels powerless, the false self is omnipotent. The child feels lost / confused, the false self is omniscient. The child feels abandoned, the false self is omnipresent. The child experiences cruelty, the false self is omnibenevolent, at least as far as the child is concerned. The false self corrects everything that the child has no control over. To all intents and purposes, the false self is a god. The problem is that the false self is essentially a false god. The false self requires sacrifice. At some point the child must sacrifice the real self to the godlike false self. He becomes the god. The Saviour therefore enslaves the child to narcissism.
So when HG describes himself as a god, I think there is more to that than simple grandiosity. The false self is in fact godlike. It gets worse. In many religions the god requires regular sacrifice / offerings. The false self is no different. The IPPS is viewed as pure, untainted, the redeemer, the supplier of all that is needed. But the god is an exacting god, he demands more than the IPPS can ever provide, she / he is doomed to fail. As such she is punished for her sins committed against the god that is the narcissist. The false self is a vengeful god, he is judge and jury, he is also the executioner of the very essence of her being.
In terms of what the bible says about man being created in God’s image. The creation of the narcissist appears to have similarities. The narcissist doesn’t just think he is above people because he is an arsehole. The narcissist thinks he is above people because his narcissism had to put him out of reach of the cruelty and confusion he was enduring. The only entity able to do this essentially was God himself.
I would have to disagree with the idea of narcissists bringing about personal growth. I know what you are driving at. Many of us here look back at the knowledge and understanding we have gained here as being a positive outcome of ensnarement. Our understanding of narcissism has grown, our understanding of ourselves as individuals has also grown. That for me is a happy coincidence of my arrival here. It enables me to take something positive from a bad experience and protect myself going forward. I do not and will not ever give credit to my narcissist for any personal growth I might have achieved. That was not his purpose or his intention. His purpose was purely selfish, simply the Prime Aims, nothing more, nothing less.
An interesting question Paul. One that I’m sure will open plenty of discussion. Nice to meet you by the way!
TS, what an excellent commentary and insight. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and most certainly the narcissist has become the God who is now the ultimate controller of his/her own universe. I’m totally in tune with your thoughts about the sacrificial nature of the IPPS – what a brilliant insight! And expressed so well. Interesting comment about the imaginary friend. Once upon a time, I heard Sam Vaknin say that every narcissist has an imaginary friend. Could this be the representation of their narcissism before they become completely consumed? I would be very interested to know.
Hey LET,
Yes Vaknin does describe the first stages of narcissism like an imaginary friend. I don’t view it as an imaginary friend in the sense of how we imagine kids with imaginary friends to be, setting a place for them at the dinner table etc ( that would freak me out if I had to do that for my kids haha) but more an inner thought voice, more role playing in a way. A character they play and aspire to be. HG played at being king a lot when he was little. I see it more like that I think.
Both SV and HG reference God in terms of the false self. When you run with both references and think it through to how we are taught in school about what God is across various religions, how worshippers are expected to make sacrifices for their faith etc you can incorporate the IPPS. SV doesn’t reference the IPPS too much in this sense but HG usually has someone at his right hand in his God / king like descriptions.
As you know, I tread carefully as far as religion goes. I don’t have your level of faith or understanding, though I do have my own kind of faith and I do hold true to that. I was revising PBE with Sam a few weeks ago too. My exam phobia came in useful for once!
Thank you for reading, I’m glad it made sense to you. Xx
As an aside, ‘He who should not have left’ in KHG. I’m sure I read that this person was not a father figure. I’m wondering if it isn’t a reference to HG feeling forsaken by God. Was ‘He who should not have left’ ever identified?
Hi TS, just shared some of my thoughts around the imaginary friend with AspEmp 🙂
I see you have a slightly different take, as in the narcissist becomes the character they hope to emulate in terms of their imagination. In other words, they don’t create a separate character. They are the character. That also makes sense.
None of my children had imaginary friends (as far as I know), but I do remember trying to make myself omnipotent in a sense as a child. I tried to imagine I had control of the Universe as a way of countering the chaos I was experiencing. I can’t explain exactly how I did that, and the thought is a fuzzy one for now, but children’s imaginations will certainly fill the gaps as needed.
I have been talking religion elsewhere lately and realized my level of respect for someone is in no way dependent on their religious beliefs. The conversation also brought up the issue of diplomacy, which I try to ensure I also keep in mind when sharing my thoughts. Paul’s comment related directly to religion, specifically Christianity, which is why I took a direct approach in response. I hope he will come back with some of his own ideas around the various responses. And I appreciate you sharing you own position with regard to religion. We’re all coming from different places x
Your comment was a delight to read! It was so well expressed and made so much sense to me. I was particularly glad you shared those thoughts which helps to add to my understanding <3
As to KHG, I'm glad you mentioned that as well. "He who should not have left" has not been identified as far as I know, and I did correlate that with the possibility of an imaginary friend (see my comment to AspEmp below). It had not crossed my mind it could be in reference to feeling forsaken by God, but that is also a possibility. HG has said it was not his father, so the person in question remains a mystery, but I do know he felt betrayed. It would be good to revisit this in KHG and any new ideas around it xox
A little of topic but this sentence; “HG played at being king a lot when he was little”, made me remember that in my experience with narcs they start to play King when they visit a castle!
It have been a very interesting thread to read. Have HG told somewere about this imagenated friend?
It appears also that this “fake persona” comes visit at first and then gradually takes over!? Seems logic that you don’t turn into a narc over a night but over a period of time.
Hello Jasmin,
The article that implies an imaginary friend is this one. I’m looking for another one I read a long time ago but this one is most discussed on the blog.
https://narcsite.com/2016/12/17/dont-fail-me-2/
Also, this song by Depeche Mode is featured in the Knowing HG section of the blog.
https://youtu.be/snILjFUkk_A
King references crop up in various articles on the blog but here is an example of that.
https://narcsite.com/2019/07/04/the-relational-tower-13/
https://narcsite.com/2015/11/29/the-asylum-of-the-grotesque/
There are other articles with additional references, I will have a think and get back to you!
Interesting you have seen narcs play king when they visit a castle.
LET, Asp Emp
You’re so kind to me thank you, you always indulge my musing. Xx
I’ve been thinking about this conversation on and off today. I’ve been home schooling both kids this week again so my mind is a bit full. If we assume that the false self originates as an imaginary friend or imaginary role playing, either one, – and as you said LET you remember imagining yourself as a powerful character – then the bare bones of the false self are in place. The core characteristics are set. Then the narcissist adds to these bare bones with the character trait acquisition. This forms the outer body, the shell that is able to move and change repeatedly, in line with environment and situation.
The real self is consumed or sacrificed by the false self, they can’t exist side by side. The stronger casts down the weaker. That makes sense. The creature then is the true self. This never sat well with me though. When we listen to the opening of The Creature it doesn’t sound like a true self would sound. It sounds more like Matrinarc would sound. It’s the scathing voice of someone putting HG down. I’ve said before that I think the creature was made up of every criticism or harsh comment HG ever received. Those comments could come from a variety of people in HG’s past. But if the creature isn’t the true self then where does the true self fit in? That’s what I couldn’t work out.
Today I thought differently. What if the true self resides in the abyss with the creature? As in, the true self is part of the creature or sits alongside it? Then HG couldn’t access his true self without releasing the criticism of the creature at the same time. He would therefore never go that route. HG is afraid of the self doubt that the creature represents, the criticism, rejection and negativity that he has buried into it. If those things come to the surface then the godlike false self would in effect cease to exist. HG does say he would cease to exist without the fuel powering the prison that holds the creature. That sounds unrealistic, but less so if you think of the false self as a god. You can’t be omnipotent and be criticised, you can’t be omniscient yet lack the confidence to make a decision, you can’t forge onwards riddled with self doubt.
HG dislikes the weak true self but isn’t afraid of it necessarily. He is afraid of the Creature because the Creature contains the means to disprove the godlike qualities of the false self. If we could prove that God isn’t real then
God would cease to exist. I’m wondering if this isn’t closer to what the chasm and the Creature represent, together with where this fits with the true self.
Funnily enough I was searching for the imaginary friend based articles for Jasmin and found this.
https://narcsite.com/2016/09/10/optimistic-eyes/
The articles usually refer to the Creature in the singular. Here HG refers to them in the plural. More than one voice, more than one tormentor, so the Creature has to be more than one person.
Xx
Enjoying your further musing, TS, and thanks for sharing them with us again 🙂
I do think the Creature is a representation of the true self, a true self which is despised and for all the reasons you suggest – the negativity, criticisms, outright hostility, abuse, neglect, HG had to bear. It is the embodiment of shame, in my opinion, and its presence or release equates to the narcissist’s worst nightmare. The false self, or God, cannot face the woundedness and weakness of that child He is proud and invincible. Omnipotent and omniscient. This weak, shameful remnant is not to be acknowledged and must be kept at bay, in case it spoils the illusion to which the narcissist has pinned his reality. Only an illusion can be tolerated now in order to avoid the abyss.
The other voices that join the Creature in order to torment, I think, are elements of those who forced the narcissist to be born and the creature to be placed under lock and key. Ugly, evil voices which forced the child to hide and the Creature to arise. They must exist with it in the darkened place which has become their home.
Ha! I think we are on different pages in terms of our interpretations, TS, but it’s fascinating to ponder until we know otherwise. Thanks for the link. It’s always interesting to read the old articles and the comments! Also a way to fill in the history of what we missed. You’ve been working hard here and at home <3 I hope those kids are doing what you need them to so it's less stressful, too xox
TS, interesting to read your words RE: the ‘creature’ within. If I recall (correctly?) from the ‘The Creature – An Introduction’, ‘the man’ as we know to be HG Tudor would cease to exist should the ’creature’ escape?
And there are people that have multiple personalities, so effectively, those individuals would have various ‘facades’ = now known as dissociative identity disorder….
Wikipedia.org “Dissociative identity disorder (DID), previously known as multiple personality disorder (MPD), is a mental disorder characterized by the maintenance of at least two distinct and relatively enduring personality states. The disorder is accompanied by memory gaps beyond what would be explained by ordinary forgetfulness”
This is interesting because, it mentions ‘memory’ – with a shrunken hippocampus (learning / memory), can this also be part of dissociative amnesia? When it is ‘toxic’ amnesia, is this ‘gaslighting’, such as pretending to ‘forget’ things?
Yet trauma / stress can also lead to ‘gaps’ in memories. I would say, on my part, this is quite relevant – even though the memories are in my mind, it is in the last year or so when ‘triggers’ or during my ‘re-processing’ (mentally & emotionally), there are ‘events’ that I had forgotten.
I know I can ‘dissociate’ but not have the personality disorder. I am one person with a ‘facade’ that I use to ‘protect’ myself. I can ‘dial’ down my emotional empathy quickly. So, maybe I do have the disorder? Regardless of that, I am aware that I do it, whereas in the past I was not necessarily consciously ‘aware’ that I did it.
What’s my point in this comment? Narcissists do: gaslight, re-write history, blame-shift, etc as we know from reading HG’s work. Is there also a possibility of genuine memory ‘loss’ of some parts of their childhood, ie ‘squashed’ down under their traumas (abuse they endured), or is it ‘forced’ memory ‘shut-down’, because it is too painful to ‘go into’ those memories?.
I posted a comment earlier today where I mentioned that I was upset because I was recalling my dog – however, if I think about my father, I don’t get as upset. The difference? My father died was when I was a child = buried & ‘unresolved’ trauma. My dog’s passing was 2 years ago, so that ‘wound’ is fresher than the ‘wound’ at the loss of my father.
So, is narcissism also considered ‘dissociative’ too? Is this where the ‘construct’ is (the ‘creature’) – the separate ‘selves’?
Thank you TS for ‘prompting’ me to respond, albeit lengthy. X
TS, thank you for this comment!! My thinking about the creatures from Optimistic Eyes is that they are all those who have hurt HG, The Creature proper being young HG who wasn’t enough, the one whom the narcissism had to step forward to save. And then all these other “craven creatures” who were added over time as they hurt him. That’s my guess. But what was really exciting for me from that article was finally finding “as they try to pull me into the abyss of insanity” – what he is afraid of happening if he were to break through the narcissism. This has been a question that has crossed my mind on many occasions, is he afraid he would die? No. He says he would cease to exist, this fits that perfectly. It makes so much sense, it would be so terrifying, beyond fear really, it could not even be permitted consideration. It plays into the thought regarding why they can’t change, that fear would effectively keep most of them, if not all, immobilized. Thank you again for posting this!
I love these conversations! I hope everyone is ok with me jumping in.
My take on the creature is that its the little boy ot little girl who feels weak and vulnerable. I think the false self perceives it as a creature, as scary and terrorizing because weak and vulnerable means you don’t have control.
Any attention, good or bad, validates their existence. Every time you validate their existence, there’s another block added to the construct and keeps the creature at bay so they don’t have to hear the cries of the little boy ot the little girl.
I love you jumping in Leigh, anywhere! And I agree completely with your assessment also.
Leigh, your second paragraph, in some way it does offer an explanation (another perspective) – because as a very young child, you would not know what fear is but you can feel it (yet you cannot explain it either because you may not have learned the words / understanding to explain it). And, you cannot control the ‘environment’ around you at that age. At the same time the ‘push & pull’ of a parental narcissist’s manipulations can ‘teach’ you to become ‘confused’ and as you get older, you learn your own ‘methods’ when it comes to the ‘push & pull’ of the narcissist? So, in saying that, maybe the ‘fear / sadness’ is the first thing that ‘creates’ the beginnings of a ‘construct’ and this is what the instinctives of the child to learn to ‘push’ down inside themselves?
That’s an interesting perspective, Asp. I was actually thinking about how the narcissist as an adult would perceive the Creature. My husband will often say to me, “You don’t know what its like to live in my head.” He has these grandiose beliefs that he is godlike, that he’s perfect. He believes that 100%. Yet, he is terrified of the true self. I believe he is terrified because the true self is the little boy that’s weak & vulnerable. He believes that little boy is trying to topple him and he can’t grasp it because he’s so wonderful so why is the true self/creature/little boy terrorizing him. He perceives it as menacing but I think, its the little boy that had a lack of control and was scared and weak at a very fragile age. I think weak and vulnerable, scare the crap out of the narcissist.
Your last sentence, I agree with 100%. I absolutely believe that the construct was born to block fear, sadness, weakness & vulnerability.
Leigh, thank you for your reply. Well, I was also sharing it from my experiences and perspective – as an ACON. In some way, I did learn to form my own “construct” and even more so after my father died. It is interesting actually, for me, because I think in understanding what narcissism is, how I was directly affected – getting to know myself on a very deep level – understanding my own ‘darkness’ and how / why it was formed – or, I should say, I allowed it form because it was my own ‘self-defense’.
The difference being, I am not a narcissist – I know that. Because I experience emotions in the fullest of the word to mean ! (eye-rolling, here, giggling too). Thank you for your comment and to see your words RE: the construct. Then again, this is from our perspective 🙂
A sp, I know exactly what you mean about building your own construct. I too have a wall up but its only since Ive learned about narcissism. I mean I’ve always been guarded but not quite like now.. I don’t show affection. I don’t hug. I’m more about how do we fix this. My mother is a victim narcissist so from pa very early age I was forced to become a grown up.. I had to take care of myself, my two brothers and my mother. There was no time for me. I guess thats my defense mechanism. Its easier to take care of others and ignore what’s going on with me. They need and I don’t. Crap, that can’t be healthy.
Thank you Asp. Sometimes just talking it out brings me awareness. It’s a work in progress.
Leigh, that is what KTN is here for – us to ‘talk out’ our minds / emotions and narcissism – to purge & discuss. It all helps. Each other. x
Hello TS!
Thank you for the links. I will visit them as I’ve missed this ‘imaginary friend’ and it seems very interesting.
The ‘King play’ at the castle seemed a bit childish but in some way I perceived it as sweet as well. Now that I know I can see that the grandiosity been triggerd. Same thing happened with narc2 when he got a weapon placed in his hands.
If I ever consider dating again I will bring all my dates to the castle and see if I will be given a show!😅
It would been interesting to hear if anyone else has experienced this acting while visiting a castle or holding a weapon?
Hello Jasmin,
No problem, you will find that clues and references can appear in many of HG’s articles. Articles I read at the start I read differently now. I notice different things each time.
That’s interesting about your narcissist enjoying playing King. I see what you mean haha. All your first dates should involve a visit to a castle. Safer than placing a gun in their hands!!
Hey Asp,
In terms of the multiple personality, I have read that the individual essentially will feel like they have lost time. So if personality A switches to personality B at 10 am and back to A at 11 am, an hour would be unaccounted for as A does not recall what they did as B. Total memory loss.
When the narcissist lies or gaslights and is an unaware narcissist I see it differently. Yes they lie and believe the lie, but I think this is due more to focus. The focus is manipulated by the narcissism. So guy in bar chats up girl then comes home late to his wife. Wife smells perfume and challenges him. He denies having so much as spoken to a woman whilst being out. He spoke to several people that night and one was his best friend. He focusses on the best friend conversation only and the girl he was chatting up is thrown out of his focus to the point where he can convincingly deny and forget any interaction with the perfumed girl. If the best friend asked him the following day what happened with the perfumed girl, egging him on, then I think the perfumed girl would come back into focus. He would remember the girl, getting her number and snogging her face off outside the bar. I imagine it more like that. I don’t see it as memory loss as such, more of a full on focus switch.
In terms of the false self, the narcissist must dissociate from his true self to a degree as the false self takes over. He must do. If you assume he plays at being king / god, I think that character he plays just gradually becomes habitual up to the point where it takes over. The narcissist wants to be godlike to escape his situation or the abuse meted out, so he imagines himself into the character he needs to be. What starts out as an imaginary friend or role play ends up taking over full time. The real self no longer has any purpose so is pushed down in my view rather than entirely forgotten. Time ticks by, the narcissist ages as his new false self so his last memory of interacting as his true self has to be as a child. A bit like how you remember school friends you haven’t seen since leaving school. You imagine them as they were when you last interacted with them. So they are always children, frozen in time in a way.
It’s difficult to say if traumatic events get forgotten. My general view is that the brain records everything we just can’t access it. Different people have more or less access to memories. I view the true self as being pushed down, just as critical or notable experiences of unkind comments are pushed down, I don’t think they are entirely forgotten or wiped out wholesale.
HG has an immense level of awareness. He isn’t the norm. I imagine access to memories of the true self for the Mid Ranger is vastly reduced. I think perhaps the good doctors helped HG to access far more of his true self ( memory wise, not emotion wise) and the associated trauma than he had access to previously.
I see Greaters as aware of what they do in terms of manipulations being a means to get what they want and something they also take pleasure in. A superiority in terms of ‘How godlike I am that I can do this to you and you don’t even see it.” ( oooh bloody hell look at you!! Haha) I don’t think the Greater narcissist recognises exactly why he behaves that way or where those behaviours originated, what caused him to become that way if you like. I see that as rare and one of the Ultra differentiations. Maybe I underestimate the self awareness of the Greater. I don’t think so.
I do think it’s interesting that both you and LET mention a kind of wishing to be powerful / role playing. Trauma in childhood must force a kind of escapism, escape into imaginary worlds or escape into books, or escape into a whole different persona that can no longer be abused. The brain is a powerful thing. If a child can’t get out of a situation it stands to reason that the brain will create an escape or a buffer to protect itself. I think the intervener might also be seen like a reality anchor. The bridge between the escape fantasy and reality. HG had no intervener so there was no one to leave behind in a way. Nothing to prevent the escape into fantasy / metamorphosis into a whole new untouchable persona, no emotional anchor to the reality inhabited by the true self.
Interesting to read your thoughts Asp, together with the varying takes on the creature from Leigh AV and LET xx
I’m talking about anchors a lot of late. Perhaps I should book a sailing holiday.
Xx
LET, can I ask, do you still listen to that twat SV?
Interesting question / point RE: imaginary friend prior to narcissism ‘formation’. Maybe it ‘continued’ after ‘formation’ of narcissism within themselves? As part of their self-defense mechanisms? I am reminded of HG’s ‘Shade’ video / article here. Only it is not an imaginary friend as such when the narcissist grows older? Not all narcissists may actually do this, as it, in my view, becomes ‘instinctual’? I don’t think the Lessers have any imaginary friends, maybe because they are not smart 😉
Haha, AspEmp, I was never a SV fan, and rarely visit anything of his as I find it long and often laborious. It just doesn’t hold my attention for the required length of time, though that could have something to do with my attention span. But that’s not true for things that truly interest me, so I guess it’s just him 😛
I remember both he and HG had an initial shock value for me, the reason being the first video I saw of SV was where he was giving a lecture in a theatre and a woman in the audience broke down during question time after he gave her an answer. It dawned on me during the video that he was speaking as a narcissist (not just about narcissism), very matter of factly, and this poor woman was probably like a lot of us in the first stages of grief after her relationship had ended. She could not understand how he could the way he was and just not give a damn, and was obviously in a lot of emotional pain.
That might have made it hard for me to connect with him, but I think by any and all accounts I would still have ended up here, which is where I feel I belong <3
It must have been very early on I came across his idea of the imaginary friend, and I had wondered if it was the early manifestation of a self defence mechanism represented by an actual imaginary being. A being who would defend and protect them, who provided them with the solace they needed, and also gave them a sense of power and control.
The question is does the friend become them/their false self as the narcissism solidifies? Or is it subsumed by the narcissism as the narcissism takes over?
Ah, the Lessers are a sorry lot, indeed. Not many redeeming features at all!
Not that I write this to defend SV, but he was also stitched up in that video by his co-host who portrayed himself as Mr Good and SV as Mr Nasty. This caused a significant fall out between the two. Ultimately minute though, interesting purely as an example of when two collide.
HG, ah, bless you, this made me laugh.
RE: narcissists & collision – I did watch the Burton & Taylor programme and noticed ‘new’ things after learning about narcissism. Of course, narcissism was not mentioned.
Oh, thank you for that explanation, HG.
It’s interesting to get your perspective on it and having only watched it once I wouldn’t have picked up on that aspect – Mr Good was a narcissist, too! I may have to watch it again.
LET, RE: your first paragraph – reminds me of (who’s that?!) Matt Hancock’s lengthy “speeches” on the ‘Daily Coronavirus Update’. He was waffling rubbish. I can assure you it has nothing to do with attention span!
RE: about the lady in the audience & that twat’s response to her – goes to show that is why it is important to be in the right place, right time and right people (here).
I watched part way through one video ‘The Crappy Childhood Fairy’, I could not ‘relate’ to that (maybe a clue is in the name 😉 )
RE: imaginary friend paragraph – I totally understand. It could also be a way of ‘escaping’ the harsh realities of what they are / were experiencing at the time – like using a ‘block’ to mask the ‘truths’. Children can have good imaginations until to the point they are ‘conditioned’ to think otherwise?
Like my sister and I played games – with our Sindy dolls (fkg hell, laughing at that, but, hey, we were kids!) and we also had toy cars and created ‘roads’ by pulling out the grass to reveal the soil and tampered that down – we had this car “playground” with ‘roads’ and ‘hills’ under the swing in the garden. It was not in ‘mother’s’ way, and besides, the ground was scuffed anyway when we used the swing……the swing was put there by the previous owners of the house. Obvs, my dad left it there too.
RE: the question – does the ‘friend’ become one the ‘inner selves’? Or subsumed by the narcissism? In all honesty, in my view, maybe it does get ‘subsumed’ and effectively ‘trapped’. All I can say is, that the trauma of the loss of my dad – the wound – could be similar as in ‘trapped’.
Only HG can give us a better idea on that question because he will have listened to so many people and with his understanding / intelligence on the human psyche. What are his thoughts on this, I wonder?
It would be interesting to know about it because we can talk about it on this blog and effectively contribute to understanding the psychology of children’s minds, in order to assist them on their paths of re-wiring their minds before they develop further issues in relation to emotional / mental health.
Good to read your views, LET, thank you 🙂
Thank you, HG.
AspEmp, thank you for sharing your thoughts again on what I said.
There’s definitely a reason for switching off at times, and waffling rubbish is one of them 😛 Matt Hancock may also be one of those people who likes the sound of his own voice!
Yes, I’m sure you saw HG explained about how SV was set up in the circumstances of that video, so hat tip to HG for clarifying that. But I think we have a sense of when we have come to the right place <3
Not sure I'll look up that video ("The Crappy Childhood Fairy") 😛
Children have great imaginations, and I love to hear the stories that come out of our various experiences as children. At least the ones that don't involve trauma. Haha, we had Cindy dolls, too, because we weren't allowed to have Barbies. But how lovely that you and your sister were able to fashion a little world of your own for travels and adventure <3 I could see it in my mind's eye x
When you talk about your Dad, I get the sense a more innocent part of you was lost or subsumed – 'trapped – after he died. Maybe you could tell me if that is right, AspEmp. There was a loss of the innocent self. Maybe for HG there was the loss of his 'friend' who had to depart when the narcissism took over. Maybe his 'friend' became his false self. That is what I'm trying to work out. Or maybe, as TS suggested, HG role played the ruler, or God, until he became that which he always imagined? Not sure we'll be getting answers to that anytime soon x
Always a pleasure to read your thoughts, too, Asp Emp 🙂
LET I think Matt likes more than his voice 😂 THAT video was not with his wife! I knew he was narcissist the way he blathered on and on.
Laughing…. tell me your thoughts on crappy fairy when you’ve viewed a video. I was getting pissed off with her so I stopped after 8 minutes!
Yes. I think you understand perfectly RE: my dad. He & I were like two peas in a pod despite my being young. There was a connection that I never really ‘found’ again (the ‘wound’ if you like). It was only recently that I came to understand & now it’s not like a ‘wound’, or even a ‘hole’ anymore. Only by really ‘looking’ into myself – after removing the narcissistic ‘layers’ off me (through the understanding of what it did to me, I realised why ‘mother’ did not assist me through my grief at the loss of my dad. Still it’s no excuse (in my perception of course) cos she was supposed to be my mother! Her abuse on top of my loss (she didn’t give a shit really about my dad being gone apart from having to do what he did – stayed home with kids while she buggered off to ‘work’) – just ‘squashed’ my innocent self further within me. I hope that gives you more idea.
Thank you for listening x
I guess both of them having to resign and abandon their families was considered worth it, AspEmp … all I could think was “poor wife” At least that will put an end to his ramblings!
I promise I will check out the crappy fairy video, too x
I really appreciate you sharing more of your thoughts around your Dad and how his loss impacted you. I’d say in some ways you still miss him tremendously, and it’s sad the little girl that was you never got a chance to grieve. I imagine you tucking your heart away at that point in time, as a way of keeping it safe from your mother as well. You were so young to have to deal with all that, and to lose your protective parent into the bargain. I remember the first story you told about your Dad here to do with a trip to the cinema to see Star Wars in his fancy car (though I can’t remember what kind!). I enjoyed that story, too. It sounded like he really wanted to include you and also enjoyed your company. I’m guessing he and your mother didn’t have a very close relationship in the circumstances. But, I believe he delighted in you <3 And you in him. You were very fortunate to have eachother.
And it's been my pleasure to listen as always <3 xox
LET, thank you for your response. For a star – the two people – Matt and Gina – in my view, it was NOT the affair that was the problem. The real issue was ‘conflicts of interest’ because of the positions they both held at the time. Of course, it was going to raise questions and it was in fact, in the interest of the public – especially with regard to where Covid-19 is concerned too. That was my first ‘reaction’ to it (the affair) when it came out. RE: the cameras / the video being made public, being well, that is another matter. Either way, it was bound to turn messy.
LOL, you’ve said it correctly “the crappy fairy video”, it was ‘crappy’. Laughing.
RE: the loss of my dad, being here has helped me a massive deal – the ‘wound’ is not as big as it was when I first arrived here. It was a Jaguar 420G (I am quite confident it was that model – the dark green with pale green leather…..hmmmm…..leather…….going off the track here 😉 laughing).
Thank you, LET, for your words. I don’t feel sad talking about him now. Hugs to you too x
So HG you’re confirming RG is a narcissist?
😆
Man’s too arrogant I swear (I mean RG btw)
Witch, HG moderated your comment and I am afraid I don’t have the answer to your question….who is ‘RG’ anyway?
@Asp
HG didn’t edit the comment, I just used the initials
Richard Grannon, that was the cohost of that documentary
TS says, “I do not and will not ever give credit to my narcissist for any personal growth I might have achieved. That was not his purpose or his intention. His purpose was purely selfish, simply the Prime Aims, nothing more, nothing less.”
I felt a rush of emotion reading that. It was a HUGE eyeopener! Its part of my problem, I give all the narcissists in my life way too much credit. I became who I am, in spite of them, not because of them. Thank you!
Leigh, “I became who I am, in spite of them, not because of them.” This is my view exactly, I even said this for years about my mother, despite not knowing what she was. The only one that gets any “credit” from me is the summer narc who was so insane he prompted me to look into what I was dealing with at all. But as someone said once here, he doesn’t get credit because it was still me who did the looking into. I am glad to have met him though for the sake that it did get me here.
Hey Leigh,
Too right you did! That was all down to you, no credit given to the narcissists whatsoever. The only exception there for me is HG. He puts out world class information, but even there we still have to implement it for ourselves. That isn’t done for us. Many here were dealt a really crap hand, the fact they are still the caring people they are is down to them and only them. Xx
I agree that narcissism develops as a coping mechanism for people born with inherent insecurities who grow up in an unstable and uncaring environment.
My view of God is that God is truth and love. Narcissists are devoid of truth and love so I believe an encounter with a narcissist can give us a much deeper appreciation of truth and love. That is my experience. I am merely saying that there is the potential to deepen one’s understanding of truth and love after an encounter with a narcissist. Not everyone will. Maybe this deeper understanding of truth and love is given by God and the encounter with the narcissist just makes the person receptive to this wisdom. I can understand that my experience may not be that of others.
Hi Paul,
“…an encounter with a narcissist can give us a much deeper appreciation of truth and love.” – this is seeing a silver lining, beyond the storm clouds. While I do believe everything happens for a reason, and I agree with your assessment of *potential* results, from a human perspective it is…upsetting to think that anyone *needs* abuse to acquire an appreciation for truth and love. My daughter did not need to be put in the hospital on multiple occasions in order to appreciate love and truth. These people are abusers, none of us should have to put up with their shit. The silver lining is but an unnecessary filamentous thread, the abusers need to be avoided, and wherever possible, stopped. We need to spread the word so more people are educated and can avoid them. We live in a messed up world but these are ‘lessons’ most of us can live without.
Very well stated AV.
Thank you.
Not all narcissists are violent. Violence of a narcissistic female towards her male partner is less of an issue than that of violence of a narcissistic male towards his female partner. For some people, their encounter of narcissism is with a narcissistic parent rather than a partner. You are right that some people don’t need to deepen their understanding of truth and love so gain nothing from an encounter with a narcissist.
In my case, I had the double narc experience of partinarc (along with losing my mother while I was young) and narcwife so my understanding of truth and love mostly comes from experiencing the complete absence of truth and love.
God or not, I am deeply appreciative of the truth of what narcissists are all about and am thankful that I have gained wisdom enough to stay or get away from them.
I do not think I have a deeper appreciation of love, however. I really do not think I know what love is. I have learned what love is NOT–and that is indeed thanks to the narcissist!
I agree with your comment completely Lisk. I am learning what love should actually look like from HG in these last 10 months, finally! And I’m absolutely grateful.
Firstly, I’d say that if the spiritual is defined as truth and love then narcissists, because they are largely devoid of truth and love, can potentially give us a deeper understanding of truth and love by making us more sensitive to the need for truth and love. However, I can accept that that might only work for religious people or not make any sense to those who are not religious.
Secondly, I believe that virtually all adults have unresolved childhood issues. Children are highly aware of the fact that they have problems and are very open to accepting help and guidance from caring adults to overcome them. However, if the issues have not been resolved by the time someone gets to adulthood then people tend to:
a) be unaware that they have issues
b) be in denial that they have issues
c) use avoidance and coping mechanisms to help them deal with the issue so not feel a significant need to address the issue and be unreceptive to offers of help
Narcissists are very good at identifying and using our flaws against us to fulfill their own needs. If I didn’t have narcwife effectively holding a blowtorch to my feet then I probably would have gone through life avoiding and making excuses for my unresolved childhood issues rather than facing and overcoming them.
With narcwife, I was unaware that I was dealing with a narcissist so the extreme drama caused me to seriously consider whether her criticisms of me stemming from my unresolved issues might be the cause of the drama. Now that I realize that I am dealing with a narcissist, I understand that my unresolved issues were ultimately not the cause of the drama but the experience did force me to seriously examine, address and eventually overcome those unresolved childhood issues. I am not sure that a caring wife would have been able to help me overcome the unresolved childhood issues I had at the time.
In general, a caring wife is extremely beneficial. It was what I wanted but I don’t think it was what I needed at the time. If I didn’t have the major unresolved childhood issues that I did, then I wouldn’t have benefited in this way from having a narcissist as a wife. I can accept that not everyone would benefit in the way that I did.
“Narcissism is a defence mechanism first and foremost.” It is because of this that I wonder if narcissism is a “disorder” not any moral value.
I would suggest some people are destined not to be saved due to free will according to the bible and Christian beliefs. Your comment lends itself to ideas around predestination. Not all faith communities hold that belief. Not quite sure where you’re getting this from in the Bible or if it is just one of many interpretations. From my perspective what a load of rubbish – “deliberately created to serve God’s larger purposes”. I don’t know the God who the people you are talking about believe in, but it’s not the same God I believe in – “promoting numerous deceptions to force people to actively choose to believe and testing believer’s faith with fire”. Ultimately you are suggesting God made narcissists. What God did do is create free will which enables us all to have a choice, including the parent’s who impacted their children this way. Not all children become narcissists. Did God engineer and fashion the circumstances for this to happen? If you really want to make bibilical references, you might want to consider what the bible says about sin. For people who don’t believe the notion doesn’t affect them either way – either to believe God is the cause, or the mechanism for their salvation. What a ridiculous notion. Blaming God for bad behaviour and a lack of accountability. I guess that’s one way for narcissists to wheedle their way out of taking responsibility … again.
Great comment LET, you hit on a lot of valid points, thank you for posting it.
Paul you’re wrong. People create narcissists. And if anyone was predistinated to not be saved then they have no free will and would be a robot.
Question for you: you think that a narcissist can’t be saved? You don’t think that there are any narcissists in churches?
Great comment Dave, thank you for making it. HG has done videos about narcissism in the church, very interesting. Also, all of the narcs in my life claim to be Christians, some being much more “religious” than others. The most religious ones are some of the more damaging ones. I don’t know if they can be saved or not, but that is no longer my problem, in fact, it never was. It has now become about protecting myself and those I care about from their evil ways.
Experiences with others is typically what leads people to becoming a narcissist but God designed and created people. The way humans are hardwired, the temperament a person is born with and the family someone is born into are big factors. I was not suggesting that God necessarily deliberately creates every narcissist for a special purpose. The first factor is part of our design and fixed but God could control the other two factors if he wanted to for certain individuals to create a narcissist for a special purpose. I don’t rule out the possibility that a few people were just born as psychopaths.
All people have free will in the sense of being able to decide where to go, what to do and say each day etc. yet can still be predestined not to be saved. They would not need to be a robot. Being predestined not to be saved would involve someone’s heart being hardened by God to view the world only materially (power, prestige, praise, comfort, security, wealth etc.) and therefore be unrecepive to spiritual truths and incapable of being saved unless God decided to intervene and unharden their heart.
Some people go to church primarily to socialize, do business, look good in the eyes of the community etc. Not everyone who goes to church will be saved. To be clear, I am not suggesting that it is impossible for a narcissist to be saved. However, in the same way that they are typically unreceptive to treatment, I believe that they are just as likely to be unreceptive to accepting the message of Jesus because both require them to look inward and accept the need to change.
I have only just seen your comment, Paul, so apologies for any delay in the response.
I’m afraid I’m still a little lost on the notion of God creating narcissists specifically for his purpose. I agree, certain factors are written into our genes, which aligns with the theory of the LOCE environment combining with that to help form the narcissist. I revisited an SV video mentioned earlier where he discusses the narcissist making a Faustian bargain with the false self (which is their God) to sacrifice themselves in order to receive the protection of the false self and its greatness. What was also mentioned was that the mind is the one thing the child still has control over. I’ve also heard it said with regard to exorcism that the mind is the one area which cannot be touched with regard to any power granted to Satan, at least not without agreement. And there you have an entry point in Christian understanding. Satan still has power in this world, given to him by God. On that basis, I believe people can be influenced and narcissists can be born through this Faustian bargain.
Moving aside from that point, I had cause to read an interesting article during the last week on Abraham Lincoln and the “Doctrine of Necessity”. Lincoln was described as a fatalist and someone who did not believe there was freedom of will and that men had no free choice. In a sense that things were set from the beginning and would play out as they would (my words, not his). This could lend itself to the idea of predestination and potentially comes from his upbringing. I was fascinated to read his thoughts and how he may have come to his various conclusions.
There is also the understanding that God has an eternal plan and in that we will all play a part. The question then being how much control do we have over the part we play? I cannot say that God did not try to intervene in my life in all manner at different times, but something set my mind to doing what I would in spite of that. Those times were an act of my free will. How much was predetermined by my ancestry and experience up to that point is anyone’s guess. I’d say the insight around addiction here is the key to unlock that. Maybe HG was delivered by God, or I was delivered to him. But always, always, always, in my mind at least, I cannot escape the belief that God exists. And somehow, somewhere, there is a purpose to all this.
Hi Paul, I do not believe this article is referring to redemption or salvation by God, I believe it is a ploy on the IPPS to get her to fall for his crap. Or, him to fall for her crap, as the case may be. Also, destined and desired are two different things. But if God is God, he knows how it will all turn out anyway, so why not put them to use, just as he would anyone else? I would not give them that much credit on their own. But then, I believe “everything happens for a reason”-Without a Paddle, 2004
Perhaps the answer then is to leave them alone for God to handle!
I am with LET with regards to free will. I am spritual not religious. I believe god exists in our higher concousness to which is shared. We see this link particually in birds – where birds in one place begin to demonstrate an ability – and it is comunicated accross the whole species – without having come into contact with the origional group. A reason perhaps so many religious texts are so simular across the world.
I am more inclined to think karma/ cause and effect are root here. A manifestation in a society which is not healthy. If we do not cherish all children, if we do not combat equallity, if we do not stand up for justice and protect those enslaved. Then how can we not understand the consequences?
There are important overall messages in the Bible. But people tend to just use it to promote their own ideology or own agenda. How many say we should be charitable – then vote for things which betray this concept – things which promote human rights violations?
Some could say – we are reaping what we sow…
This sent a shiver down my spine. It brought back memories I prefer not to think about 😉
Mr. Tudor, I saw your post on Instagram. Did Matrinarc pass away?
No.