Just the Way It Is



By now you all know that I am driven by the hunger that rages within me as I must seek out fuel to feed the beast. To begin with, my fuel comes from the compliments and admiration you send my way during our golden period. Yes, that blissful, wonderful time when everything tastes better, smells more fragrant, looks brighter and sounds sharper. I was asked why can I not contain my need for fuel to receiving admiration and plaudits? Why must I embark on such a destructive course which brings mayhem to everyone around me. Why must it hurt so much? A fair question.

In my case, there are two reasons for this. The first brings forth that old adage of familiarity breeds contempt. Imagine that strawberry is your favourite flavour of ice-cream. I bring you a large strawberry ice cream in a sugar cone. You take a lick and it is delicious. So fresh tasting, so creamy and there are even little pieces of strawberry contained inside of it. It simply is the most sumptuous ice cream you have ever introduced to your taste buds. These strawberries have been grown in God’s garden, tended to by angels and grown with the purest water, the most fertile soil and vibrant sunshine. The milk has been taken from cows which graze on nothing but the most verdant grass, free from pollution and contamination. In fact, every ingredient that has been used in the creation of this magnificent iced confection is the best and perfect. Not only that, it has been crafted by the Supreme High Creator of Gelatos. I bring you a second one. Why not? This is an ice cream fit for champions. You eat this second one but by now you are feeling full. I bring a third, the taste is still great but not as good. Now I give you the good news that you are eating strawberry ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner and nothing else. Soon, the amazing taste of the ice cream no longer brings you pleasure. In fact, you start to dread the sight of the ice cream as it is brought to you and then it makes you angry that you have to eat it. You are sick of it now, it has lost its allure.

This is what happens to me. It always happens. Since I am wired to seek out instant gratification, even the most wonderful sensations soon pale to me. I am not built for the long-term, I have no desire for longevity. If it was me eating the ice cream, I need to go and seek out mint choc chip or even vanilla or perhaps a juicy steak instead. I need something different in order to give me that hit. Why not then just leave the strawberry ice cream alone and seek out that new taste sensation, why do I have to subject the ice cream to a campaign of savage and nasty behaviour. One reason is that since I have invested so much energy in securing all that strawberry ice cream I am not going to let it go. I need to treat it differently and thus generate a break from its taste. With you, I need to have a break from the now stale praise and admiration you provide to me. It just does not do it for me. Similarly, I have invested energy in ensnaring you and I do not want to let you go. I have to treat you differently to change the dynamic. I need to keep you around so I embark on a confusing campaign that means you cling tighter to me. I will of course be seeking out new admiration from new sources. There are so many flavours for me to taste. You were once shiny and new. Not any longer. Someone else is shinier and newer.

I will return to you, like I will return to the strawberry ice cream. I have forgotten how it sickened me so I will eat it again and wow, it tastes good. Similarly, I will grant you a short return to the golden period. You lavish me with praise and love borne out of relief and I enjoy it. The law of diminishing returns applies however and soon I tire of your admiration as I tire of the strawberry ice cream and once again I must take a break from it, whilst never actually severing ties with you or giving away the ice cream. Back and forth I will go, occasionally being good to you to receive your admiration as I occasionally have a scoop of the strawberry ice cream. Thus this familiarity and unwillingness to let you go means that I have to treat you badly in order to resurrect the positive fuel on an infrequent basis whilst drawing on the negative fuel to provide the contrast.

I mentioned two reasons. The second reason arises from threats to our control. For the most part we dwell in our false construct that we have dragged you into. You may achieve something or a colleague may secure a new contract or we notice a friend purchase a flash, new car. This provides us with a painful reminder of our own limitations and our hatred of the limelight being moved elsewhere, however temporary. In such a case we have to lash out. We must denigrate, despise and demean in order to create that contrast again, we make you look bad and we look good. By putting you down, or the friend or the colleague we feel powerful and in control again. The horrible sensation vanishes. On these occasions, envy and fear drives us to be horrible to you. We have to do it to make ourselves look superior in comparison.

In both instances we need to provide a contrast in order to maintain our fuel. Thus, all cannot be rosy in the garden, we need to spray the weed killer over the flowers you have grown to ensure we receive the fuel that is our primary aim in life.

285 thoughts on “Just the Way It Is

  1. k mac says:

    Dear Leigh, I’m sorry I couldn’t respond directly to to your comment. I just wanted to say I totally identify with feeling inherently bad for having an affair. I didn’t feel bad either. I did however feel bad for not feeling bad much like you. I felt horrible when he found out and was so deeply hurt by it. Sometimes good people do the wrong thing. We are human after all. ❤

    1. Leigh says:

      Thank you for your understanding K Mac.

    2. A Victor says:

      I didn’t feel bad during or after my affair when I was still married to my first ex. It did result in me staying with my second ex longer and through things I shouldn’t have though so I think there was guilt, I just didn’t “feel” it as such, it just affected later choices, not true for most probably. But I think it also made me much more easy prey for my second.

      1. k mac says:

        That’s very interesting AV. I was very worried as to why I wasn’t feeling guilty. Doing something like this was very out of character for me. And to not feel guilty about it? Unheard of lol. I’m the queen of guilt and shame. 😄 I think I just needed this so bad. I was willing to throw away everything to experience life again.

  2. Asp Emp says:

    LET, RE: “I searched the obituaries at the start of the pandemic hoping to find his name there”- laughing….I did the same at the start of my journey here. Why? I had read about the ‘bond ending when one (narcissist or victim) dies’ (again, ET at the time). I have not looked since (reduced ET). Having said that, I had wondered (at the time) whether we would ‘sense’ that they had passed away because of the ‘bond’. I suppose when ET has been ‘re-learned’, and as times goes by, it no longer matters because it’s psychological (LT).

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      AspEmp, glad to know I wasn’t the only one! Hard hearted, I know. At that point I had zero empathy for him and would gladly have seen him dead and buried. Justice served, IMO.

      This was probably before I got here, so I don’t think I was aware of the ‘lifelong contract’ …

      I never thought about emotional thinking being behind that, but apparently it is because he is still alive (as far as I know) and I no longer wish him dead 😛 Once upon a time I would have guaranteed that ‘soul mate’/’twin flame’ bond would have assured I knew if anything happened to him but now, as you suggest, logical thinking allows me realize it no longer matters, and I’m unlikely to be affected by his death one way or another. So very different to when you’re in the midst of your ensnarement.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, I laughed at “glad to know I wasn’t the only one!”….I would suggest it’s partly my morbid curiosity too 😉

  3. Lisa says:

    Does this also apply to IPSS and LDE?

  4. alexissmith2016 says:

    I’m really interested to hear from others. I’ve noticed a difference in the interaction of people I suspect are Ns but smoke weed compared to those who are not addicted to any substance. They appear to be less intense? I’m wondering whether this is due to smoking weed or whether its the fact I am misjudging them and they are not Ns after all. Any thoughts welcome.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      Is weed a stimulant or not? It makes you hungry so it probably is. I’m pretty sure that HG mentioned in one of his videos that drugs can kind of be a temporary substitute for fuel.
      So if a narcissist is smoking weed then it’s possible this feeling that they are less intense comes from the fact they are receiving ‘synthetic’ fuel.

      Personally, I don’t know any bong carrying narcissists, so I’m not much help to you !

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks TS, I haven’t met any until recently when there has been a bit of a change with only some of the people I interact with and to me there seems to be a clear difference in their behaviour. Still Ns as the red flags are there bur it took longer for them to show through.

    2. Joa says:

      Both my N smoked.

      The first was an extrovert. Always a leader. He became less agitated, more indifferent. As if he needed to be more “numb”.

      The other had a lot of friends too, but he was more of an introvert. Smoking allowed him to blend in with people more easily and to contain his anger (he had a problem with that). Periodically, he also took other drugs. Probably any possible. He always liked to try.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks Joa, that’s really interesting to hear how they were intro/extro and how it affected them when they smoked.

    3. Leigh says:

      I need you to clarify, please. My narc husband is a major pot head. I’m not sure what your asking though. My narc husband is not intense at all. There’s nothing exciting about him. He’s a victim narcissist and extremely boring with a capital B.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Really interesting Leigh. In terms of clarity I’m thinking more of long term heavy csnnibis smokers, make even ex but after years of heavy use. It’s like although the behaviours are still there, they seem to lack the lustre to chase what they want in the same way an N who has never smoked or at least never smoked heavily does. Like there is almost a dumbing down of the behaviours if that makes sense.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi Alexis, thank you for clarifying. With my husband his chronic use of cannabis definitely dumbed down his behaviors. He is definitely more subdued. He has no motivation. He never leaves the home unless it’s to work. His job is seasonal so he’s home in the winter months. He doesn’t even own a car. I believe its because he’s a victim narcissist. I know other narcs that are heavy users and some are successful and motivated.

      2. njfilly says:

        Hi Leigh:

        If I may ask, if he is so boring what drew you to him? I assume he seduced you in some way and was not boring at that time?

        Perhaps we all have different definitions of boring. I don’t like being around people I perceive to be boring. I just want to pull my hair out.

        1. Leigh says:

          Hi NJFilly, well I met my husband when I was a young teenager 6 months after my narc father left. He’s 3.5 years older than me so being a young teenager, that excited me. Plus the fact that he was a high school drop out made me feel like I was being with a bad boy. He’s a victim narcissist and so is my mother. My guess is I was so drawn to him because it felt like home. He’s actually a mix of my mother and my father. My father was an alcoholic. My husband has substance abuse problems as well. I married him because he needed to have surgery and he didn’t have insurance. At the time I thought he was a decent human being and I did love him. Boy was I wrong about him being a decent human being. If I met my husband today, he wouldn’t be someone I would be interested in at all. I wouldn’t even give him the time of day. The problem is that there’s almost 40 years of history there and I often take a backseat in my own life.

    4. WhoCares says:

      I have known both narcissists and empaths (confirmed by HG) who use(d) weed or weed products. The UL is not less intense, the Mid-ranger is what I would call “less intense”…but some of that could be attributed to school, and the difference in ignition of fury.
      I would assume, going from what HG has provided us with, that weed would act as a fuel substitute, therefore, the narcissist who engages in this may appear less restless, reactive, etc.
      (The empath I know used weed during her ensnarement to address her emotional stress and anxiety. She is more intense emotionally, overall, than me because she’s has Geyser qualities and I don’t.)

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks WC ah right so the UL is still intense. I guess there is a degree of existing personality plus genetics in terms of how weed affects us too. Thanks so much for sharing and re the empath too. I think perhaps there may also be differences in terms of length and degree of usage.

        I know two mids, one who uses only occasionally ans the other who uses all the time like it’s air. And he is far less intent far more distractable yet the characteristic behaviours are still there.

    5. BC30 says:

      I have not noticed this, but I am going to think on it.

      My professional colleagues who do it are either my close friends and empaths or acquaintances, but I know that they partake of more illicit drugs. Maybe there is something to that.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks BC – I’ll look forward to your update.

    6. Asp Emp says:

      Alexis, you asked, I am answering from my perspective 🙂

      Consider people have reasons and / or have various ‘coping strategies’. Smoking weed is one, alcohol is another, prescribed medication is another……yes, it can enhance some behaviours, it can alter behaviours. Invoke different thought / feeling perceptions.

      Some people are not ‘using’ anything at all. It could be simply their neurodiversity. Or ET / LT getting out of sync.

      Here are some considerations – similarities and / or differences in the following: ADHD; Alexithymia; Anosognosia; Aspergers Syndrome; Autism; Avoidance personality disorder; Bipolar disorder; Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (CPTSD); Dissociative disorders /Dissociative identity disorder; Psychotic dissociative spectrum; Schizophrenia.

      There may be more ‘labels’ of neurodiversities that I have not listed above. By eliminating characteristics / traits – the process of narrowing down in order to provide diagnosis and effectively apply the correct methods ie treatment / understanding, if and when appropriate.

      I have nothing to hide. I am not on any self-medicating, nor prescribed medications for my neurodiversities and so effectively, not impacting on my emotional thinking but I may be on some for physical concerns.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks for your answer ASP, yes definitely people have different coping strategies. Just this person definitely smokes a lot of weed and They show some signs of being an N but then some other behaviour is inconsistent with this and I wondered if I have misjudged them or whether their weed smoking masks some behaviours. I don’t believe it’s neurodiverity unless perhaps ADD without the H? But really appreciate you highlighting them

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Alexis, thank you for your response. If you know the person well enough, you can have a look at the Autism Quotient Test (AQ Test). On that note, I would suggest that maybe narcissism is a neurodiversity too?

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Loosely speaking I guess it is a neurodiversity but for me neurodiversity is where brain processes are somewhat different to the average person. Narcissism is a PD and their thinking and actions compared to the average person is wholeheartedly different. They have a completely different world view.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Alexis, thank you for your response. “neurodiversity – the range of differences in individual brain function and behavioural traits, regarded as part of normal variation in the human population (used especially in the context of autistic spectrum disorders)” (Oxford Dictionary) – but I would suggest that, in my view, it should not be considered purely for autistics. The list of conditions that I wrote in my original reply to you – they all would see the world differently, including those with narcissism.

          3. Witch says:

            This test suggests I’m not on the spectrum
            But the RAADS-R test suggest I am on the spectrum and the CAT-Q test suggests I am on the spectrum…🤷🏻‍♀️
            Maybe it’s just anxiety I don’t know

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, thank you for sharing. The AQ test that I used after I was diagnosed gave me a score that I felt was lower than I expected based on the reading that I did to understand more about Aspergers. These tests would vary. I have bookmarked to read later the ones you have done on yourself. Thank you for those. 🙂

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, RE: anxiety – if you can, have a look at what makes you anxious – situations, people, interacting, environments? Consider the ‘triggers’ that causes your anxiety to come to the fore. Using an example, if you are going to a job interview, you’re going to be nervous in any case, but does it appear to be higher level anxiety for you to attend? Is it whether you would be understood by the interviewer? Or is it the unknown environment that you are going into? Is it communicating with a stranger? All sorts of considerations. Only then, you can determine your anxiety and the why’s, the what’s, the when’s, the where’s and the who’s. There is no need to share on here, just considerations for you.

            PS I had a quick look at RAADS-R site, very informative and also comprehensive yet compartmentalised as appropriate for people sensitive to over-load of information. It made for interesting reading too. Thank you for pointing it out to me and I certainly will look into this further.

            I now recall why I scored lower on the AQ test, because there was around 5 questions in relation to hearing / sounds and I remember feeling annoyed about this being an unfair part where Deaf people cannot score ‘fairly’ if you can understand. Then again the original AQ test I took was designed around 20 years ago.

          6. Witch says:


            When it comes to interviews, for me it feels very formal, I don’t like the attention, I feel interrogated and I’m anxious that my mind is going to go blank, I won’t think of the best answer quick enough and I will look like an idiot and give the wrong impression. I feel I need more time to think of an answer, it’s too much pressure! I would prefer to send an answer in writing rather than speak.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, thank you. Yes, the ‘attention’ during an interview (for me anyway) is similar to being ‘interrogated’ by a narcissist parent (referring to “a lack of control now returns us to a lack of control then” To Control is to Cope : The Creation of Narcissism). Anxious, yes, I feel that too. Thank you for sharing your experiences / thoughts on this. I am aware that in the UK, under the Autism Act, one can make a request for reasonable adjustments in relation to interviews where one can ask for submission of written answers to the more complex questions. Now, at my last work ‘placement’, they knew about the Autism Act, they knew I have Aspergers but did not apply the reasonable adjustments and I brought this up with my line manager after the 1.5 hour interview (which was unnecessary because the two people knew me quite well etc after around 5 years of working there!!) – it was one of the most difficult interviews I have ever attended. I now know why. This is partly why I responded to an anonymous survey about that organisation especially in relation to refusal to provide reasonable adjustments for autistics.

            I shared the above because people who are not aware of ‘rights’ may not know they are dealing with narcissists at work. Such a Catch-22, rough and rusty carousel ride.

            I am glad that you have awareness of yourself, it gives you some strengths for yourself. Thank you.

          8. Witch says:

            I thought about maybe paying privately for an assessment… I can’t be arsed to go through a GP just to be recommended 4 sessions of CBT or some crap that doesn’t work and only to be told to take deep breaths when I’m anxious ffs.
            what makes me doubt I’m on the spectrum is that I’m not sensitive to lights or sounds. In fact I can zone out so hard that I can’t even hear my doorbell ringing and I have a loud af doorbell. I can block sounds out unintentionally so they don’t affect me.
            what makes me think I might be on the spectrum is the fact I have stimming behaviours which is why I like working from home because I can stim when I want and I can’t do it in front of other people a part from my partner, if I live with you then eventually you’re going to see my weird behaviours because I can’t hide it forever.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, RE: the doorbell, you can look into equipment for Deaf people (I must state that those that work in the Fire Service may not be Deaf but use such equipment to aid them to wake up)…..like a portable pager alert that is battery operated but linked to the doorbell? My alarm clock is a Sonic Bomb (LOL).

            Right RE: the sensitivity to lights etc – consider that HG’s explanation of the narcissism – empath spectrum where there are variations of narcissism / empathy. His TDC would show variations of traits, ie low in defiance and high is decency The same would apply to the autism spectrum – variations from severe to high functioning (previously known as Aspergers). Variations of sensitivity to environments etc, variations as to what makes someone ‘tick’, it does not mean you do not necessarily have autism. Prime example of variation, I love curry, some autistics do not like it. Some like it hotter, others like it mild. I can understand your ‘concerns’ and would like to know more about yourself and why you do things. How do you feel about contacting that RAADS directly via phone? They can advise some routes to diagnosis? I only had my diagnosis because I felt ‘forced’ to be able to access extra support ie job centres (I was informed that I am not disabled enough to access support – WTF). I needed it in writing “evidence” !! Hope this helps you to think. I no longer care what other people think if I swear out loud in a shop, I have a ‘reason’ for doing so, invoked by no milk maybe – I spent my effort, time to go there and there is none. That is going to ‘threaten my control’ because the shop ‘took it away from me’. Hence the swearing (LOL). Mitigating circumstances in my perception 🙂

          10. Witch says:

            Also I’m sorry hear that you had to endure such a threatening interview! An hour and a half! I would die. Usually if an interview takes that long they would do it in stages and even so I still wouldn’t cope but it would be easier to deal with.
            They know they can get away with this with poor people because we can’t afford solicitors. There needs to be a better system in place for people with disabilities to receive employment justice.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, it was a deliberate ‘session’ of bullying; manipulation; etc. They already knew what skills / knowledge I had – they had my CV and application form – absolutely no excuse to have a one and half hour interview – it was absolutely unnecessary. That higher-up, in my view, was dishing out revenge. Still, I did not break. Tenacity. Of course, she wrote total BS in email to my line manager – deflection etc. Her side-kick at the interview didn’t like me either. He is fick as shit at his job. I threatened his control with some of my answers in the interview (laughing now at the realisation, smart-arse me). I was a volunteer which made it all the worse. I was not the only autistic at that organisation. I had said to both them fkers in that room something about poor quality policies & procedures (she wrote them). Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

        2. Joa says:

          Yes Alex, I also had the impression with N2 that he was masking his behavior. He was more relaxed, friendly, talkative, closer – sort of normal.

          When he smoked N1, I hated him. Quite the opposite. He became an indifferent peg, a hollow brick.

        3. Leigh says:

          Alexis, ohh! This clarifies your question even more. Could your friend be masking their narcissism when getting high? With my husband, he doesn’t mask his behaviors at all. He thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread and he’s extremely proud of being this one in a million kind of guy. Being high doesn’t cause him to mask it. If anything it makes him more arrogant and more of a know it all.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks Leigh, I guess its not masking them as such, more that they’re dumbed down a bit because of long term use. like their attention is not as focussed as it would be should they never have smoked. so the intensity of their behaviours is dumbed down, so not necessarily when they’re high but just a complete dumbing down on a day to day basis.

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            but that’s really helpful to know that it doesn’t mask behaviour and perhaps for one of the individuals I know he does in fact have ADD rather than being an N. And the apparent STs are not actually STs but his mind simply being distracted elsewhere. thank you Leigh. He’s not someone I know terribly well so no impact on me. But I have to put everyone into a Narc/Empath/Normal box – absolutely everyone! hahah even someone I may speak to in passing on the tube, literally anyone and everyone. I think I need to do ASP’s test ASD test now!

          3. Leigh says:

            Alexis, I have to do the same thing!!! I have to put everyone in there box, lol!!! I’m glad to know I’m not the only one.

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahah me to Leigh

      2. Twisted Heart says:

        I’m very interested in learning about neurodiversities. I’ve been seeing a man who disclosed that he is on the autistic spectrum but there are so many similarities to narcissism. It’s difficult to trust him after learning so much about narcs for so long. He also started drinking again so that’s enough for me to walk away though he does recognize it and wants to do better. Feels like a lot of silent treatments but I know he’s not intentionally trying to hurt me, he just can only take in so much at a time. Not sure if it’s worth working on. I got angry and lashed out and called him a narc after I thought he was intentionally ignoring me and that really hurt him I think🥺

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Twisted Heart, thank you for your response. I understand your hesitation because of the issue of trust. There is a reason for the drinking to start again – something has triggered it. If you know him well enough, you can have a look at the Autism Quotient Test (AQ Test) and / or maybe consider an NDC before any further discussions with him directly? Take into consideration, how much of his up-bringing do you know about – I found this article very useful
          https://narcsite.com/2017/09/12/exposed-five-further-tips-to-flush-out-the-narcissist/ and this one can also give you some pause for thought too https://narcsite.com/2021/11/30/to-control-is-to-cope-narcissism-and-its-creation-12/ That way, you can make your own decisions and find a way forward?

        2. alexissmith2016 says:

          Twisted heart do be careful. I know of more then one N who has protested to be on the spectrum when actually I suspect they are mids who would be king. The ones I know have some degree of awaeensss they’re an N but use really ASD to disguise rhis so that you can explain why their behaviour seems a little off. Also a couple who have been formally diagnosed as ASD and not necessarily the mid who would be king. So they wholeheartedly believe it to be true. Of course there will be plenty of genuine people with ASD too.

          1. jasmin says:

            I’m glad you brought that up Alexis!
            I have also experienced a number of Ns who blame their behaviour on a diagnosis.
            For example:
            The manifestation of heated fury is blamed on ‘bad impulse control’ due to a neuropsychiatric diagnosis
            paranoia is blamed on OCD
            and so on.

            Twisted Heart from what you describe I’m getting ‘crybaby’ vibes. (Sounds like my dad to me.)


          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Yes Jasmin and if we were following a scent, it can more than distract us!

    7. njfilly says:

      Hi Alexis:

      Yes, there is a difference. I dated a narcissist (mid range) and although I did not do the NDC on him it was obvious. He was a whack job. The nuttiest most unstable man I ever knew, and the craziest relationship I was ever in. When I ended it I watched an 8 minute video about being in a relationship with a covert narcissist, and in that 8 minutes it described everything that happened in my relationship that I was confused about up until that time. That confirmed it for me.

      Anyway, I was a chronic pot smoker at that time. He was a friend from high school (part of the reason I stayed in the relationship so long trying to make it work) and smoked pot occasionally in high school (not with me). He could not smoke it now due to his job and drug testing, but soon after we started dating he injured his arm and was out of work on disability for months. He was at my farm often and smoking it with me, and he loved it, and although I could see it relaxed him, the craziness hadn’t started yet as we must have still been in the golden period. When we went to his apartment we had to use a vaporizer due to the smell.

      Soon, after his instability became apparent, I could tell he was much calmer after smoking. Even normal. He noticed it also and always asked me if I had any, or could bring some to his house (I always had it and always brought it). He lamented often that he wished he could smoke it more because he felt so good after smoking it. He even said he felt “normal”. He couldn’t due to his job. I never “forced” it on him, even though he was much more pleasant to be around after he smoked. He did become “normal”. Even enjoyable. Our interactions and conversations were great. As if I could see the man he was, or would have been, had it not been for his narcissism. This may be one of the reasons our relationship lasted as long as it did (2 1/2 years) because we smoked pot often which made him and the relationship tolerable-both due to his altered state of mind as well as mine. Even though I didn’t know when I was dating him that he was a narcissist, I knew he was unstable, and the change in him after smoking was obvious and dramatic. I might have stayed with him if I could have kept him high continuously. Ok, just kidding about that, but anyway I have no doubt that pot had a positive effect on him, as it does even with people who are not narcissists. Although I have also heard of people who have a bad reaction to it, become very paranoid, can’t tolerate it, etc. I never had that problem so I can’t speak about that.

      I think I’ll go get high right now…

      Nah, who am I kidding. I am already high!

      As you may or may not know there are many “code words” related to drugs. With some of my friends when we want to get high we say we want to “get nice” or “get poked” or “get poked in the eye”-this relating to the bloodshot eyes you may experience after smoking pot. (or we just say “somethin somethin”). So you can say in front of other people that you want to get nice, or ask somebody (whom you know smokes pot) if they want to get nice and other people don’t understand what you are talking about. With regard to cocaine the code word would be “partying”. If you ask someone if they party, or if they ask you this, they are asking if you do cocaine. (The code words may be different due to the age of the person). (FYI-in case you ever get asked this in certain company.)

      Just sharing a little of my world with you all…

      1. WhoCares says:

        Hi njfilly,

        That was interesting to read and makes me wonder if the length of my friend’s ensnarement was partly drawn out due to the use of weed.
        Thanks for sharing.

        How have you been doing?

        1. njfilly says:

          Hello WC,

          I am well, thank you. How are you?

          Smoking caused many problems for us. He broke up with me once and blamed it on the fact that I smoked pot. This angered me since he knew I smoked before we had gotten together, and the fact that he smoked with me as well. Of course now I know, he just needed an excuse.

          It also caused problems when he was jealous that I could smoke and he could not due to this job. Then it caused problems when we smoked at his apartment and he was concerned his neighbors would smell it, so we switched to a vaporizer. Then it caused problems because I always had some on me when we traveled, and I would bring some on vacation down the shore. Admittedly, some of these issues might cause problems in normal relationships, particularly when one party smokes and the other does not. It also caused problems because I smoked often with my supplier and he was jealous of that man.

          Oh boy, I am weary just writing out this comment!

          I began to wean myself off pot in approx. end of 2017, and soon I quit smoking completely in 2018. I use edibles occasionally now, but it’s no where near the amount I used to smoke. Just one of a couple good things that came out of my relationship with him.

          1. WhoCares says:


            I’m good, thanks. Glad to hear that you’re well, and also good to hear that a consequence of quitting your narcissist included an eventual quitting your heavy reliance on weed.
            It was very similar for my RL empath friend, once she left her narcissist.

          2. njfilly says:

            I learned many things from my relationship with the narcissist. I can learn. I enjoy learning.

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks so much for sharing NJF. That’s really interesting and really helpful for me to understand.

        Yes there is someone a secondary source, non intimate whom displays some N type behaviours then it all seems a bit contradictory as well like you say much calmer much more chill and I suspect that’s because he smokes a lot and it masks his true behaviour considerably.
        What prompted you to find the 8 minute video? Was it by chance or did you seek it out?

        1. njfilly says:

          Very interesting that you asked me that question. I think about that video often and how it showed up on my search. It saved my life. I don’t believe in coincidence, I believe I was meant to see it.

          I was on youtube searching for self improvement videos and I think I typed “self improvement” into the search bar, and it came up in the search. It was the only video related to narcissists, and it was called something like “When the covert narcissist breaks up with you over and over”. He did do that, of course, but not knowing what a narcissist was I thought to myself, “well, he is not a narcissist because he is not self centered and full of himself”-boy was I wrong about that! So I ignored the video.

          I kept searching and it kept coming up. Finally, since he did keep breaking up with me over and over I decided to just watch the video to see what it said, and I was floored. It listed about 6 manipulations (I don’t remember exactly) and he did all of them. I couldn’t believe it but I was so happy I watched that video. Everything came into focus at that point.

          Then I began binge watching videos on narcissists, as many people do. I even watched the video that explained how a person will binge watch videos once they learn about narcissists! I had some favorite channels I watched, including Melanie Tonia Evans. I took her Narc Abuse Recovery Program also. (NARP). About 4 months later I heard an HG Tudor video, and Wow!! I was in love!! I mean….how very interesting his videos were and it brought me to his blog.

          Seriously though, when I first heard an HG Tudor video it did sound very academic to me and I thought maybe the man was a psychiatrist. Then I thought it was more of a marketing gimmic due to his voice which sounds so much like a vampire. Of course when I visited the blog it was all explained.

          How about you? How did you learn about narcissism for the first time?

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            That’s so interesting to read NJF thanks for sharing. Not too disimilar to you really. I was an IPSS to a mid-range. Although his loveboming etc is much more akin to that of an IPPS. He did the same to many other women before and after me, I see this now. And his MO was always to make them fall in love, leave their current partner, then he would devalue them immediately. Always, always. Thankfully I never left mine. Anyway, I had confided in a friend who happened to by a psychotherapist and he suggested to me he might be an N. I’d learned a bit about Psychopaths because I had a female friend I suspected was one, but I didn’t know much about Ns. so I ignored his comment. At some stage, very soon after he begun devaluation (I did not stick around for much of that at all, I’m too weak), I went total NC. stopped going to the place where we knew each other form, changed my number, deleted his. it was total NC. I didn’t really know what NC was at that stage but I’d done this with my sister a few years prior and knew it made me feel good and in control of my life, so I knew him making me not feel nice was not something I wanted to stick around for. Shortly after I thought Ill google narcissist see what my friend meant. And like you binge watched all the usual suspects. at that time HG had not been born hahah and it was a year or so later he created his website. Until that point, whilst so much made sense, I kept going in and out of doubt, was I right, was I not. the more I read of HG’s work, the more it made total and complete sense. Until now, I literally see everyone for exactly what they are. It’s amazing!! I had periods along the way where I grieved for my naivety, wishing I could see the world how I once did. But now I’m in full acceptance and grateful for all the knowledge I have and the peace of mind it gives me. I also have long periods of feeling like I lived in this special world, which only few people know about, it was all so surreal. It no longer feels surreal, just normal. And I guess in the same way someone super clever like Stephen Hawkins accepts others do not share his level of intelligence, you learn to accept that other people just cannot and will not see what those of us educated by HG can see. I always wanted them to, desperately wanted them too, but that desire has completely faded. I accept they can’t and live my life accordingly.

          2. WhoCares says:


            “I had periods along the way where I grieved for my naivety, wishing I could see the world how I once did. But now I’m in full acceptance and grateful for all the knowledge I have and the peace of mind it gives me. I also have long periods of feeling like I lived in this special world, which only few people know about, it was all so surreal. It no longer feels surreal, just normal. And I guess in the same way someone super clever like Stephen Hawkins accepts others do not share his level of intelligence, you learn to accept that other people just cannot and will not see what those of us educated by HG can see. I always wanted them to, desperately wanted them too…”

            Thanks for this comment. You’ve explained it so well, the feeling like you have this insight that most others do not – and the wanting desperately for them to see it too!

          3. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith, thank you for sharing all of this! I had not known your story but had seen you way back, in the very early days, commenting on narcsite. Your psychotherapist friend was very astute! Many of them don’t even catch it! And I can do relate to the surreal “secret” world that we inhabit here!! You put that so well! I think normals don’t need this world, for themselves anyway. They could use it to help friends or family they have who might be ensnared, but given how they are, they probably don’t care that much. And they’re so much less likely to be ensnared, why would they? So, I’m getting to the same place, unless someone asks me, or it’s a public forum, I don’t bring it up much, only a little. But, I just finished an email to a friend who was ensnared… And, who did she come to? Me!!! Yay!! Because I’ve said a little, she knows I know something, and now she knows more! I always find it satisfying to give out what I’ve learned, recommend HG’s materials etc. Anyway, thank you for this comment! It was fun to learn a bit of your history!

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            Thanks AV, ah yes I’ve shared bits of my story on ans off here and there. Just read back my comment, oh wow – the grammar! Hhahaha I’m surprised you could make any sense f what I said. I often type think and fail to read back. I need to.

            Glad you’re reaching that place too!

            Yes the need to fill others in csn feel overwhelming at first. But we all settle down eventually. I barely mention to people now unless I feel they would be receptive.

            Yes my N love bombed me for six months and I was not interested at all. He kept me hooked by saying, but I’ve got cancer and you make me feel better. Odd thing is I wasn’t attracted to him at all in the beginning, in fact quite the opposite! But then one day it just hit me all at once! I realise now it’s not a normal thing to use an illness to seduce someone. But at the time I’m was just overcome with emotion and empathy for him. He was a very malign person.

          5. Leigh says:

            Alexis, I just saw this comment too. It was only because NJFilly responded. WordPress sucks sometimes!

            In my opinion, I think your the strong one and I’m the weak one. Even having the knowledge I have and being a member of this special group, I still don’t leave. I don’t have the strength to leave. Its easier to stay.

            Don’t sell yourself short. You’re stronger than you think.

          6. njfilly says:


            Interesting comment. WordPress failed to notify me of your comment and other’s subsequent comments.

            I also have gone no contact with people in the past without realizing it was no contact. I did my first NC when I was only 18. I’m thankful I knew in my heart what I didn’t want in my life, yet confused about why I never went NC with my father or family.

            I agree about the “special world” that we live in with this “hidden knowledge”, yet openly revealed by HG Tudor and others. Now I’m shocked others can’t see it when it seems so evident.

            Something in your comment struck me: “At some stage, very soon after he begun devaluation (I did not stick around for much of that at all, I’m too weak),”

            I have asked myself this-is it weakness or strength that makes a person stick around and endure abuse, and/or leave a relationship immediately?
            On one hand, some people (myself included) can endure pain. I can ignore a lot. I don’t allow things to affect me, and I am not as easily hurt by things. So, I don’t need to leave quickly. Maybe I am strong.

            Some people (not counting me on this one) don’t want to leave the relationship for whatever reason; they don’t want to be alone, the partner provides something they don’t want to lose, etc., so they don’t leave quickly. Maybe they are weak.

            On the other hand, some people know what they will or will not tolerate (like you), or what will hurt them too much that they will not be able to handle, and they leave immediately. Maybe you are strong.

            Still others don’t have the maturity for any problems in a relationship, and they don’t know how to handle them, their emotions, or themselves, or other similar reasons, and they leave immediately. Maybe they are weak.

            Which is it? When is a person strong and when is a person weak? I have always thought of myself as strong.

          7. WhoCares says:


            No answers here. I just really enjoyed your comment though.

          8. alexissmith2016 says:

            I have the same problem with WP too.

            It’s difficult to know whether it’s strength or weakness I suppose.

            For me it cut deep, I think I pick up on the minutest of subtleties to a chance in behaviour and I’m not prepared stick around for that. At least I wasn’t. Now I couldn’t care less. It has absolutely 0 effect on me when I experience N behaviour as I can just explain it away. And it all becomes meaningless.

            As for strength I’m not sure. I know that I absolutely would never want to be with someone who does not want to be with me and never have so I wouldn’t stick around even if there was no emotional abuse involved. I’m fortunate that I get over things pretty quickly too, which helps.

            It’s good that it doesn’t really bother you so you can give things a bit more of a chance in case they’re not an N.

      3. Leigh says:

        NJFilly, you gave me something to think about. Maybe its based on the type of narcissist? My narc husband is a victim narcissist and a major pot head. I can’t really see a change in his behavior from when he’s high to when he’s straight. However, he does take long breaks from it from time to time. During those times, I see a little bit of a difference. He’s more lazy and sedentary and whines ALOT. He can also be grouchy. But nothing extreme. But my husband is either flat or low. There are no highs with him at all. He’s really quite boring, lol.

        As for the paranoia, most of the time it doesn’t make him paranoid but there have been times it has and so he took a break from it. I know the few times I’ve smoked it has made me paranoid and I didn’t like it.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Leigh, interesting point you made RE: paranoia. It made muvver paranoid (laughing at the memory) but it was a substitute’ fuel source for her. It heightened my creativity when I did it, alcohol did the opposite for me.

          Maybe some narcissists do not like to have their ‘construct’ ‘undone’ by influence of self-medicating because it makes them more vulnerable? Maybe this applies to not just narcissists? I wonder if self-medicating differs when it comes to narcissists – do some feel their ‘creature’ more under the influence? Do others self-medicate to aid to quell their ‘creature’ (yes, as it’s a fuel substitute)? Maybe it depends on the ‘history’ of the narcissist’s life?

          Maybe you can consider HG’s ‘Shade’ article where your husband is concerned and the episodes of paranoia while under the influence. Is that what happens?

          1. Leigh says:

            Asp, my guess is that it was the creature and he interpreted as anxiety. I will say this, he didn’t want the “anxiety” to stop him from smoking. He thought his mind could stop the anxiety attack from happening. He wanted to conquer it. He feels stronger than the anxiety. He won’t let the anxiety win.

          2. A Victor says:

            My dad was like that too… Nothing, even anxiety, could be stronger or smarter than him, he’d fight it with all his might, white knuckled and stiff upper lipped all the way. Well, his illness changed all of that… Not something I’d wish on anyone or any family but, I am glad for the very human side of him that it allowed me to see as it peeled away all veneer. I don’t know what was there at the end, narcissist, creature or a combination, but it was him with nothing, empty so to speak, and I still loved him even if he wasn’t ever able to love me.

          3. Leigh says:

            AV, I would imagine it must have been very difficult for you to come to terms with your dad being a narcissist since you respected, admired and loved him. Narcissism sucks!

          4. A Victor says:

            Leigh, surprisingly not. I was a NISS, his Golden Child, but I was fully aware of his behaviors at the same time, we all were and it was not fun, even the “positive” things he did, angel with a dirty face stuff. He was just the less offensive option between my two parents. I tried for years to figure out how they affected each other to cause all this chaos, HG’s recent interview shed even a bit more light on it, but learning that they were both narcissists and that narcissists collide was a big eye opener for me, made a lot of things fall into place. What’s really interesting is that my kids can see how he was a narcissist more than my mom, my siblings also hated him more, yet she’s the bigger problem for me. Narcissism does suck, absolutely.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you for sharing your interpretation and perception on how you view his “anxiety”, through his behaviours.

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi Asp, I’ve thought about your question a little bit more and my husband smokes to quell the creature. Its definitely a fuel substitute. When he’s not smoking, he can’t sleep and has horrible dreams. He’s also more needy. He wants more attention from me and he needs his ego stroked much more often. Its quite irritating. Its funny because he hasn’t been smoking the past month and I was wondering why he’s so far up my ass lately. It took your question for me to realize that he no longer has his fuel substitute so now he needs real fuel from me. Ugh! I hope he starts smoking again soon, lol.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you for your response. I am glad that it gave you a think to recognise the reason(s) and ‘circumstances’. At the same time, we are helping others on this blog get an insight too 🙂

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          You made me smile here. I tried it without alcohol a few times. The first time was a bong at uni. I left the room for a phone call, then couldn’t find my way back. I was walking up and down the same corridor for ages and couldn’t figure out which way the numbers were going on the doors. The second time was during a fling. I was stuck to the couch and just couldn’t move. The fling was making food in the kitchen and I remember thinking, he could kill me in here and no one would find me for ages. I think that might be paranoia! Haha!

          If I mix weed and alcohol, then I have myself a lovely time. I laugh and laugh and tend to fixate on one person in the group who I just find incredibly funny. They could sneeze and I’d roll over laughing.

          Overall then, I’m not great on weed either!

          1. Leigh says:

            With alcohol it was even worse for me. I didn’t like it one little bit. Alcohol makes me silly and fun. Weed makes me paranoid. Not fun at all.

          2. A Victor says:

            Leigh, same, I hated the weed experience but even more so with alcohol! I only did it 2-3 times as a result, it was horrible. Alcohol, on the other hand… Silly and fun! I thought so anyway! 😂

          3. Joa says:

            TS, I smiled. Your description fits me.

            After a small amount (one two wags) I was in a bubbly mood and I was laughing like crazy 🙂

            If more, it usually blocked me, I sat in one place for several hours, I couldn’t move + paranoia + great fear.


            In my teens, I also had an infamous experience of sniffing glue. Complete departure. Transfer of reality. Wonderful condition. The connection of minds and souls. Apocalyptic visions – in which I understood the meaning of life and the existence of the entire universe. Dangerous and very fascinating.


            I didn’t try other things, even though I could many times.

        3. njfilly says:

          Hi Leigh:

          The man I dated was also a victim narcissist. Such a victim mentality, it really sickened me at times. He was also very sedentary, and watched way too much TV for my taste. Luckily for me, we only saw each other on the weekends. He would also whine occasionally. I can’t say he particularly got paranoid from it.

          Many people have the stereotypical pot head in mind who watches TV and eats. It doesn’t effect me like that at all. Instead, I get very motivated and energetic. I can get so much done. Also very talkative and creative. That’s why I love it so much.

          I’m sorry to hear your husband is boring. Maybe that’s better than a drama creator.

          Sometimes, I am so thankful I am single.

    8. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Alexissmith2016,
      Our son’s narc partner verbally had a go at us in the early hours of one morning, he was high on weed and still drunk after being out partying.
      The second time was in the afternoon after a night of drinking, smoking weed n partying. He’s normally very creepily quiet and softly spoken.
      Both times he was abusive and swore, the second time he became aggressive and almost started a fight.
      He has not been allowed in our home since!

      Our other son (non narc) is on medicinal marijuana and CBD oil, prescribed from his doctor for his long term pain.
      He’s relaxed, calm and happy when he drinks
      Hope this helps a little Alexis
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks so much bubbles, does your sons partner use a lot or occasional and with alcohol?

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Alexis,
          He used to use it for recreational purposes during the week, but more so with alcohol and partying.
          A lot was dependent on our son’s finances plus he has mental issues.
          I’m not aware of his current situation
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  5. Asp Emp says:

    Prince Andrew said it. MRN I knew said it. My line manager said it.

    “Just the way it is”.

    Just saying.

  6. Wendy says:

    Truthseeker615, I love The Witcher series and hope there will be another season soon! Henry Cavill (Geralt) is awesome in this. What a strapping hunk of manliness! Lol

    He can pick me up and carry me off any day!

    I do think Keanu Reeves is very attractive in a more mysterious soulful way. 😊

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are the wrong age for Henry.

      1. A Victor says:

        Not the wrong age to enjoy looking at him…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed, but he won’t be looking back.

          1. A Victor says:

            Wow…thanks! Haha, I was thinking it must be he have a distinct and known preference for much younger women, since you are not intentionally rude, to us. 😂

            PS, unless the women are underage, I can look and not feel bad and who cares if he looks back!

        2. Wendy says:


      2. jasmin says:

        Large age differences are quite common ..

        I have wondered if it is more common when Ns are involved as a consequence of the prime aims (money, fame and so on)?

        Personally I prefer someone +/-5 years. But younger guys can still be eye candy.😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Nothing to do with the age gap, but rather the preference of the gentleman that you are discussing.

          1. Jasmin says:

            I can see what you mean!
            Not a short datinglist for him.. I’m thinking nomad.

          1. Wendy says:

            Violetta, haha! I’m not sure I want to be either! Thanks for sharing. I have never heard of Harold and Maude! I learn about so much more than narcissism on this blog!

          2. Violetta says:

            It’s a great movie. See it if you can.

          3. Jasmin says:

            I haven’t heard about Harold and Maude either.
            I’m perfectly happy with being a Cougar!😊

      3. Wendy says:

        HG, of course I am! But, I’m not ancient for goodness sake! A woman can daydream can’t she? Lol

        1. Wendy says:

          Also, I will add that many younger men like older women. They tend to enjoy the fact that we have our act together and have experienced life. Not depending on them for everything. We are self sufficient and don’t really need what they have. Especially if we are young at heart and take good care of ourselves. Not that I have a preference for younger men but if I so happened to meet one that there was a mutual attraction I’m sure I could hold my own and he would not be disappointed. 😉

          1. Joa says:

            Every “my man” is younger than me. The two most important, but also the earlier fleeting “loves”.

            My sister also has a younger husband. When she was finishing her studies, he was still in high school. It was a funny relationship 😊 But now you can’t see the difference.
            Her former boyfriends were younger as well.


            When “my N” came years later, he said: “I thought you were menopausal.” Sssss, snake, boor! The difference between us is not that great (both of us are 40+). But I have to admit, that I started to laugh, this pin was offensive, but funny 😊
            I also like to stick pins in retaliation 😊

            That was right at the beginning of the conversation, it made me laugh… and a millimeter closer. In total, he unlocked me over half year. I am full of admiration, when I realize his movements on the narc-chessboard. Forward, backward, backward, two moves to the side and forward…

        2. HG Tudor says:

          Not a criticism of you Wendy, I can see you are not ancient, it is more an observation on the preferences of Mr Cavil.

          1. A Victor says:

            Oh, I wondered that. I hope he’s not a perv. That would wreck all fun in watching his shows.

          2. Wendy says:

            Thank you HG, I understand what you mean after reading up on him he likes younger women. Although, in one article he states when he was 19 he dated a 32 year old, lol.

            Even if I was his age or younger and lived in that part of the world it would be a snow ball’s chance in hell that I would meet him much less date him! I don’t tend to socialize with super stars, lol!

            Thanks for clarifying what you meant HG. Maybe I can cancel that Botox appointment! 😂

          3. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi Wendy
            You definitely do not need botox judging by your photo! 🙂
            My mother’s husband is 15 yrs younger than her so there ya go!! Phooy to any of those people who say who we are best matched for!
            And as for window shopping keep on! If men can look so can we 😉
            Hope you are feeling much better 🥰

          4. wensical says:

            Aw, thank you Chmum! That was so kind! As for window shopping, you know I am not gonna stop that! Nothing wrong with a little eye candy! Anyway, as to my feeling better I was tested yesterday and it came back positive for the big C so I am resting comfortably at home with moderate symptoms most of which are sore throat, headache, and fatigue. The reports of losing your ability to smell and taste are very true!! Can’t taste or smell a thing! Actually a good thing right now! I’ll be fine, just need to let it run it’s ugly little course!

            Hugs and thanks again for the sweet compliment! 🤗💕

        3. A Victor says:

          Haha Wendy, “not ancient for goodness sake!”. Love it! Same!!

          1. Wendy says:

            AV, lol! It’s a fun dialogue. Ah, the joys of getting older! Trying to do it as gracefully as I can. 😉

            I wanted to respond earlier but I have been extremely ill since late Saturday night. In bed sleeping most of the time until now. Ugh! Hope it’s not Covid but whatever it is it’s knocked me on my butt! Starting to feel a little better today.

            You and your daughter are still in my prayers! 🤗🙏

          2. A Victor says:

            Thank you Wendy. I hope you have a speedy recovery.

          3. wensical says:

            Yw AV, thank you! 🤗

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            “Ah, the joys of getting older!” I always say this and I’ll say it again: age is a question of mind over matter; if you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter. Fuck ageism!

          5. wensical says:

            SP, lol. Fuck it, you’re right! Love this. 😉

          6. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor and Wendy,
            Old age ..tell me about it haha
            My narc mum complains about it all the time, “getting old is horrible, wait til you get to my age”, never says anything positive. Same with our ‘dear ol friend’ in age care …..always negative

            Wendy, sorry to hear about you getting Covid, our youngest son was tested positive yesterday. He complained of feeling so lethargic and sore ….then nasally, very congested, he’s off work for 10 days (he couldn’t celebrate Mr Bubble’s birthday as he was working, thank goodness, otherwise we’d all have it) phew !
            My thoughts are with you lovely, best wishes on your recovery 🥰
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, how interesting! My mother, hahahaha, was “complaining” about her age in her late 30’s!!! Just for sympathy, big Victim that she is… She’s she’s never let up since! I’ve been hearing it for almost 50 years!! They are something aren’t they? But, I guess it’s what she’s found works for getting her fuel, when HG said fuel makes the narcissist feel like they’re somebody, this made sense, this age thing gets her attention. Sad. 💕

          8. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            My mum gets her attention by NOT telling me …….if that makes sense.

            Mum NEVER phones me to let me know, I only find out when I ring her. “Why didn’t you tell me mum, I could’ve fixed it or I could’ve bought it on the way here”
            It’s not her old age, she’s always done this…..”oh by the way” …….then there’s a mad panic, feeling sorry and guilty for her
            Sad, yes it is AV, they continually drive you nuts 🤪
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      4. Freedom says:

        there is no wrong age, there are narcissistic people who ruin everything, of course there is no Perspectiva narcisista

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There is a wrong age when it comes to Henry, which is the point I was making.

      5. Witch says:

        Are you implying Henry Cavil is another Epstein ?!
        Wendy I love the Witcher series too. Henry is attractive in the series more than he is naturally. I haven’t read any of the books but I’ve read some reviews of people being disappointed in how woman are represented in the books and the series makes better use of characters. So I’m still undecided as to whether or not to give the books a go.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No. I am pointing out that he has a particular preference age wise when it comes to the opposite sex.

          1. Witch says:

            When you made that comment, I expected the worst but found that his current girlfriend is 32. The grossest age gap I found was him dating a 19 year old at 32.
            But the rest haven’t been that bad

          2. HG Tudor says:


          3. Asp Emp says:

            HG, I googled “reference of China in age gap in relationships” and one response I read was…”The lower the education, the wider the gap”. Laughing, for ages, ah, there it is, the pun, oh, the irony. LOL.

          4. Witch says:

            What do you mean by China, I don’t understand???

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I shall have to remain mysterious on that point. For now.

          6. Bubbles says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            He also has a bum chin …..hmmm!
            Good looking men get too much attention ….. no thanks !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. Liza says:

          “I love the Witcher series too. Henry is attractive in the series more than he is naturally” no!!!!!! he is so much more good-looking naturally. The contrast between his blue eyes, dark hair, and pale skin are just perfect. He was my ideal type, especially when he had smaller muscles and a smaller chin ( i suspect they used chin protease on him on the witcher). I hate how he looks on the Witcher, way toooooooooooooooooooo much muscles, platinum hair that looks always dirty ( i know it is for the sake of concordance with the universe where he evolves, but i can’t help it, it gives me the same uneasiness as those scenes in old cowboy films when they sweat and walk in the desert with a lot of dust sticking to them). In the end i’m happy that he isn’t to my taste anymore, it allows me to convince myself that i’m not sad that he has a girlfriend that is not me.

          1. Witch says:


            I think I have a thing for fantasy characters that aren’t fully human… I also fancy Prince Nuada from hell boy 2 and mystique was kinda hot too

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I know what you mean, out of character, looks wise, he gets a yes from me, I prefer him not clean shaven though, which actually isn’t my usual preference.

            It’s the character I’m drawn to rather than his looks. I tend not to crush on people in film or on tv because I don’t really notice attractiveness until I know the person, then, all of a sudden, I find them attractive, or I don’t. I can’t know a film or tv personality so I tend not to notice them.

            This actor in this particular role I think just hits the mark, but it’s the specific character of Geralt that I’m drawn to really. If I met Cavill in real life, I have the feeling I’d be disappointed he isn’t Geralt haha!

          3. BC30 says:

            LOL I’m not the only one bothered by his hair then. Nevertheless, it’s the character I’m drawn to rather than his looks.

          4. Liza says:


            Me too, apart from my ex, I have only ever fallen in love with manga characters ( i blame my inability to fall easily in love with humans on the fact that I compare them to my manga characters and they stand no chance). I didn’t know hell boy, I just checked prince nueda on google and I find the illustrations of him really beautiful, but the photos with a human are too much on the scary side to be attractive.


            “It’s the character I’m drawn to rather than his looks” I would like to say I’m like that too, but sadly, I’m interested in looks first. I can hate a good-looking person if I discover that they are bad after knowing them, but I can’t end up finding someone attractive if I didn’t like their looks at first, even if they are the nicest person in the world. I even became best friends with one of my best friends (too much repetition, I know, sorry) because at first i liked her eyes and she liked my hair.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think I’m a bit odd to be honest. I think most people experience attraction before getting to know the person as you do. Once they do get to know them, if the person isn’t likeable then the attraction fades.

            I just don’t notice. That’s not exactly true. I notice attractiveness but don’t feel anything in response to it until I first feel some form of connection or bond. So casual sex doesn’t compute with me. No bond. Similarly I think this might be why I was so damaged by the online narc. The bond was formed first and over a prolonged period before I met the person. My affection comes from the bond not the physical aspect.

            That’s not to say I don’t love sex, I do, but only once I’m emotionally connected. I don’t emotionally connect just through having sex. I believe this is close to Demi sexuality. Not sure how I feel about being placed in a box so I’ll reject that automatically. If I’m honest though, I sound pretty close to it.


          6. Liza says:


            It is sad that the person you grow to like was a narcissist, but as a generality, I think it is a very good quality that you pay attention to people’s character first, especially if you end up in a serious relationship with them. I mean, you will end up not noticing the person’s pretty face after a few months, but if they are an idiot you will notice it even more with time -_-“.

            I think that my obsession with looks originates from the fact that I have ADHD. I always struggled to remember faces or associate names to faces, and this often gets me in very embarrassing situations. But I noticed that when I like someone’s appearance or they are well contrasted or have a catching thing, it holds my attention for enough time for me to actually register the information, and it increases my chances of getting along with them, because the next time we meet, they wouldn’t think that I disregarded them and didn’t pay attention to what they told me. Plus, I love looking at pretty things, I have no other objective reason to excuse my superficiality U_U

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think what you write makes absolute sense. It’s possible you are more visual when you take in information so the visual cues associated with appearance will stick more than auditory cues in the context of your ADHD.

            I know what you mean when it comes to names. I’m embarrassingly bad. I introduce myself, then when they respond it’s almost like that tiny section gets cut from the video. I have no clue what their name is but recall all kinds of details about them, have recorded the conversation in my mind, would notice if their hair cut changed etc, just not the name. I put it down to the fact that when I meet someone, I’m reaching for so much hidden information that I screen out the obvious such as the name. My mind is just busy on other things.

            Your ADHD might also keep your mind busy elsewhere, similar issue ! I don’t see your behaviour as being superficial, just someone perhaps with a visual learning preference. You did really make me laugh about your best friend though! Xx

        3. Wendy says:

          Witch, I haven’t read the books either. I just really love watching shows set in that time period. And of course the mystical and fantasy of it all. I love Game of Thrones also. Although, many of the scenes are very degrading to women. Another one of my favorites is The Hobbit Trilogy.

      6. Chihuahuamum says:

        HG …how do you know what age he finds attractive? There are a lot of younger guys who don’t mind an age gal and like older women…not “old” older.
        Im tired of this mentality that it’s ok for a man to be with a woman much younger and is celebrated, but is assumed an older woman can’t be with a younger man. Total BS!
        You’re only as old as you feel and don’t let anyone shame you or make you feel you can’t go after a younger man. That’s so “old” way of thinking!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because I have knowledge based on evidence with regard to preference.

        2. Witch says:

          @ Chihuahuamum

          I doubt very much HG has a genuine moral opinion on older women with younger men…
          That would only be used against someone as a manipulation

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The point being made was nothing to do with younger man/older woman. CM introduces that.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:


      It’s funny, the visualisation is very similar. Me, “ He has to carry me round under his left arm all day.”
      You, “He can carry me off any day.”

      I read something interesting a while ago. How true it is I don’t know. Apparently Google engineers analysing websites that people visit and the pages they visit on the various websites, claim that there is a very clear and common female fantasy.

      The fantasy is that of the dominant Alpha male. Not that surprising, but they managed to be more specific. Women fantasise about the dominant Alpha, but the fantasy relates to the Alpha being aggressive to others but not the woman herself. Essentially, it is the idea of the woman being able to control or tame the Alpha male so that he is ‘safe’ around her but ‘dangerous’ around everyone else.

      I would agree with the findings, but there also has to be an element of honour in there too. Yes to Geralt, no to Keanu!

      1. Violetta says:

        Maybe we’re not interested in Beta males because we don’t see ourselves as Beta females. Notice how Scarlett O’Hara despises all the men who don’t see through her bullshit.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Ooh, Violetta, I think you might be on to something there!

          That’s a very good point. Honestly, I’m not drawn to ‘nice’ guys because secretly I know that they can’t reign me in. I admit I’m hard work, stubborn, so I need someone with the strength of character just to say no to me, or at least have the capacity to say no. That’s not to say I want a bad guy realistically, but I need someone with a bit of grit to them.

          I wouldn’t describe myself as an Alpha, that would mean I’m also an Alpha mum, and they aggravate the crap out of me, but I’m not calm, I’m not placid, so I’m not a Beta either!


        2. Witch says:

          I’d be totally okay with a guy who does whatever I want to do and let’s me have my own way, (not all the time but a lot of the time) and if he thinks I’m gods gift 👍🏼
          if that’s beta I’m fine with it

          1. Violetta says:

            What if he’s doing all that to manipulate you? “Nice Guy Syndrome”, per Wikipedia:

            …..the term is also often used sarcastically, particularly in the context of dating,[1] to describe someone who believes himself to possess genuine “nice guy” characteristics, even though he actually does not, and who uses acts of friendship and basic social etiquette with the ulterior aim of progressing to a romantic or sexual relationship.[5][6]

            There is also a new construct that is where this is known as the “Nice Guy Syndrome”. This is when these men who act nice, gentle, and respectful expect that they are entitled to women because they are the “nice guy.” These nice deeds are performed by these “nice guys” in an attempt to please women into a relationship.

          2. Witch says:

            that’s only a possibility if we are referring to the golden period.
            I’m referring to a man who’s a bit codependent and will let me have my own way. I mean this hypothetically because I’m already taken. I just mean to say that I would be happy to be with a man like this and wouldn’t care about any such labelling as “alpha” or “beta.” I would be happy to love and cook for someone (male or female) who tolerates my weird quirks, my anxiety and my bossiness, they don’t need to be able to lead men into battle, although a 6 pack is a very big bonus.

      2. Wendy says:

        TS, I see the difference in those two comments. For me, I like the thought of a dominant man that has the ability to “ kick some ass” if need be and is always my protector against the evils of the world, lol. I think this is something we grow up with as portrayed in the movies. As little girls we are taught about the knight in shining armor and the heroic prince that saves his damsel in distress. It’s engrained in our thought process from a young age. It’s not until we get out into the real world that we find out it doesn’t quite work like it does in the movies!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I agree, protection definitely comes into it but more in a sense of knowing it was there if I needed it. A quiet strength rather than the knight who keeps charging in to save me. I’d likely say, “Would you just bugger off with the whole rescuing thing every ten minutes?!”

          I actually don’t want to be carried off unless I say I want to be carried off, apart from the times where I secretly just want to be carried off. Obviously.

          1. Wendy says:


            “Would you just bugger off with the whole rescuing thing every ten minutes?!” 😂😂😂

            I love this! I have to agree 💯. Thanks for making me laugh.


          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Wendy, haha, same, thank you for a fun conversation.


        2. A Victor says:

          I’ve had the experience a few times in my life of a man stepping between me and whatever, or whoever, was coming at me. There was no pomp and circumstance, no fanfare, no fisticuffs, but those men were very real men in my eyes from that point forward. Oddly, I also had a wonderful large dog who did this on a few occasions, it was the most protective thing ever and made me love him even more.

          1. Joa says:

            Oooh, recently I was describing a dog I took from a shelter.

            This dog saved me several times. He can sense the perpetrator’s intentions as quickly as I do.

            A year ago, a group of drunks stood in the park. One of them broke the bottle and started walking towards me. My dog ​​immediately attacked. The man changed course, walked around us and returned to his seat 🙂

          2. A Victor says:

            Joa, my dog saw the intent before I did! Then he’d move into position and stand his ground, and then I’d realize what was happening. Only once did he feel the need to show aggression to the perpetrator, it was over in a second, all others saw him and backed down before anything escalated. That one aggressive time really showed me that he was serious, he would’ve taken the hit for me and they’d have had to get through him first. It makes me tear up to even write this, I did love that dog.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yep, totally agree, that’s exactly what I like. I know what you mean too about your affection towards your dog. I walk mine at night, I just like the silence of the dark and looking up at the stars. The downside is that my dog is far more protective, particularly if we encounter a male walker. I have to announce us both to the walker and say hello in a really light tone, and even then I can feel the tension in my dog.

            I’ve had some kind of respiratory infection these last few days, not COVID but it has kicked my ass. I slept my way through the weekend and the dog, never left the side of the bed. Even the kids commented on him. Dogs just know.

            If I get to heaven, all my dogs are coming with me!


          4. A Victor says:

            TS, I hope all my dogs aren’t in heaven! Lol, way too many and I’m not really a dog person! But that one can be there…he was special. The rest can be in doggy heaven…😁

          5. A Victor says:

            TS, also, I hope you’re feeling better really soon!

          6. Wendy says:

            AV, my ex husband was like that and he was certainly one that could back up his threats to anyone that threatened his family. I respected his strength and always felt safe with him around.

            I have two wonderful dogs a black lab and a yorkie mix and although I don’t know that they would attack a perpetrator they would certainly make them think they would!

            The perp would run away just to get away for the annoying bark of my terrier!! Lol

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Aww thank you AV, I’m all fixed now.


        3. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Who cares about Henry when Momoa is available? And there’s definitely no age gap with him plus he married an older woman. I fell in love with Keanu when I saw him trying painfully to ride a wave in Point Break. Anyway, about the alpha male etc… I am a love devotee that always imagines things to be better in her head than in real life. I love the idea of a strong big guy that protects me (from what? Who knows) but who can also whisper feminism and social Justice in my ear. Haha! I also love guys with long hair. And about dogs: I have two, the boy is 83 pounds and the girl is 9 pounds. She protects the entire family. Or so she thinks.

          1. wensical says:

            SP, my dogs are both females and the little yorkie mix is def the boss of the two! They are great alarm systems for sure.

          2. Violetta says:

            Sweetest Perfection:

            Little dogs tend to be ferocious. Big ones think they’re puppies and want to sit on your lap. Go fig.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Violetta, totally true. But he also takes advantage of his stature to do “nose surfing” and steal food from the counter top. Other than that, he is just a big goofy boy.

      3. BC30 says:

        Hahaha I totally get the desire to be carried around. There was a bar I used to frequent back in the day. I was carried around inside and out to my car, no reason other than for funsies. It really is fun!

    3. Joa says:

      Keanu Reeves, I remember seeing him in the first movie. I was 16 at the time. He got my attention with his face and role, but I wished he had longer hair. Back then, I loved men with long hair 🙂 I really like this actor.

      As for “Witcher”, it is a series based on the books of our Polish author – Andrzej Sapkowski. I have not watched, I am satiety of fantasy. But you Wendy advertised the actor so much, that I had to check it out. Not my type of beauty, square jaw, too masculine, brrr. “Witcher” in the Polish version was produced in 2001 and our actor was handsomer, more delicate, pffff 🙂 But the film was bad.

      HG spoiled the mood! Only logic and logic, do not allow to be in the clouds 🙂

      1. A Victor says:

        Keanu had never done much for me, he’s grown in attractiveness since learning he’s an empath. Now I see him through a different lens and appreciate him more. And the ones that are narcs lose their attractiveness to me. It’s not possible to overlook what I know they’re doing off screen to people, no matter how nice looking they are. Except for James Spader…😂

      2. Wendy says:

        Joa, thank you for pointing me to the Hexer which is based on the same books the Witcher. You mention Michael Zebrowski who plays in that and I agree he is extremely handsome and yes, a much softer version of Geralt!

        As for HG spoiling the mood, it’s ok. Logic is a good thing. I don’t tend to stay up in the clouds for too long. I have to many things around me to catapult me back into reality! Lol

    4. k mac says:

      I dont care for Henry either, sorry lol. I didn’t mind him in Tudors but in Witcher 🤮 I only watched half of episode 1. I just couldn’t get into it.

      1. Wendy says:

        K Mac, lol. I think Momoa is better looking all around. My all time favorite handsome actors in their prime was Clint Eastwood and coming in second after him would be Sean Connery. Clint in his prime put the rest to shame! Love his acting and directing skills also!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Rhett Butler, whoever played him. He has to be Rhett though, he can’t be anyone else.

          “He looks like he knows what I look like without my shimmy.”

          Indeed he does.


  7. Asp Emp says:


    HG, you say intentionally because you know your own actions and why you do them. I am now aware that I do the ‘flicking’ of the switch too ie when I do it and why I do it, whereas previously I was not always consciously aware of doing so in the past.

    I understand that unaware narcissists ‘react accordingly’ to their instincts.

    My question is, in regard to empaths and their narcissistic traits, are there occasions where some empaths would also ‘flick the switch’ so to speak (reacting by their instincts / emotions) yet would they also be consciously aware of doing so?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Empaths are aware of when they engage in manipulative behaviours, but it does not happen often and is driven by alternative behaviours (see Why Am I Behaving Like a Narcissist)

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I feel like I engage in it an awful lot now though HG. I don’t believe I did pre knowledge. But I’m certainly very aware when I do and even feel guilt about it but still end up justifying it to myself anyway. I initially thought it was as you describe a reduction in emotional thinking. But now it appears to be a sustained reduction. I mean I don’t manipulate on the exhausting level you guys all operate but when I need to I do. Is this normal? I guess those of us reading your blog are pioneers.

        Also I don’t manipulate where Es are concerned and it’s not anything truly harmful either even if the Ns do deserve it hahaha

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Me too. I’ll be brutally honest and this bit isn’t particularly nice. I have manipulated since my very early 20’s. I know I’m doing it and I know why I’m doing it. I do it for various reasons including defence but also including personal gain. Admittedly I did it most when in a corporate environment, this is when it really started.

          I manipulate a little in my private life. I used to think not, now I know I do. Not often, more to save time or prevent argument. Sometimes I just can’t be bothered to argue the toss, so I manipulate my way round or out of it, or I manipulate just to get someone to do something that needs doing. Privately I influence more than manipulate, but I do still manipulate occasionally.

          I admit to getting a kick out of it. It doesn’t make me feel powerful, it just gives me a real buzz.

          Like you, I use benign manipulations. I consider malign manipulations more as a means of defence. Defence would include me personally, someone I care about, or as a reaction to something that I witness, that is unjust or an abuse of power.

          Narcissists manipulate in every moment, I don’t, so I’m not a narcissist. The last time I manipulated was on Tuesday afternoon! To suggest that an empath, with her natural capacity to read people, wouldn’t be a strong manipulator, I think is selling the empath short. I don’t agree that there has to be an erosion of emotional empathy for the empath to manipulate. I agree though that she is likely to use manipulative moves more if her emotional empathy is eroded.

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah that’s such a relief to hear TS. Thanks so much for sharing. It’s odd. Sometimes I feel guilty, other times not and like you other times powerful

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I know what you mean, I suffer from guilt a lot, just not in the context of manipulation. I think that’s because the people I manipulate I see as being deserving of it, or as fair game, or with some form of risk factor attached. Also, let’s face it, most women manipulate because most women have strong observational and negotiation skills. Much of our manipulation will fall within a normal range, as empaths we just self evaluate more.

            I listened again to ‘Why am I behaving like the narcissist?’ And also Cross Pollution. Both packages centre on situations where the empath is either knowingly or unknowingly under the influence of a narcissist. I don’t have that as an excuse. I am not ensnared nor recently ensnared. I don’t work in an environment crawling with narcs, although, I likely did in my twenties. So then why am I manipulating more recently, though not as often perhaps as when I was younger?

            If I swapped out the word narcissist in HG’s bulletins above, and replaced it with the word ‘environment’, that might answer the question. Similar to the discussion we had on the Heyoka thread before Christmas, I think we are evolving or at least reacting to changes in our environment.

            I don’t know where I stand, I’m less sure of what is going to be thrown into the situational pot. Am I talking to someone rational? Or not? So rather than discuss openly as I would prefer, rather than seek a resolution or a compromise, I secure a fair outcome through manipulation.

            My environment, at least currently, I think is influencing my behaviour. I’m essentially on the defensive. So perhaps our emotional empathy is eroded, not through having a narc in our lives or social circle, but simply because our environment is increasingly narcissistic or increasingly woke. Difficult to say which of the two is worse!


          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            I was unable to reply directly to your other comment. I agree we live in a much more Narcissistic environment. I do believe I’ve had a wholehearted change though. My boundaries are really strong now, except when I don’t want them to be of course haha. Same as with chocolate and alcohol. I know it’s bad but still love it! But I absolutely won’t do anything I don’t want to. not at all.

        2. A Victor says:

          I can do it but hate feeling like I have a reason to do it. And then I hate the doing it it if I decide it must be done. It has always been a thought process and is always intentional and short term. And doesn’t happen often at all. It always makes me feel crummy. Now that I know about it, from here, I do it even less, I don’t want to be narc-like in any way, plus I’ve been learning other ways to approach things. The one place I have actually used it with a giggle, since knowing, is with my mom. Haha, is that evil? I think not…😇

        3. Leigh says:

          Alexis, I manipulate too. I often manipulate in order to maintain peace. I often have to sugar coat and stroke egos. Its funny because that’s how I recognized that my husband wasn’t a true partner because I have to play make believe. I cant be completely honest with him.

          What I have found is that when I manipulate for selfish reasons, it comes back to bite me in the ass. So I always think long and hard before I decide to manipulate or not. I always ask myself two questions. What’s the worst that can happen and is it worth it?

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            I wonder if it’s worth considering the different types of manipulation, as in those required to keep us safe and those intended to cause harm to others at the opposite end of the scale. I definitely think there is a scale of manipulations related to purpose and while everyone can manipulate, people may be doing it for very different reasons.

            Sometimes we manipulate others for their own good (I remember TS’s example of her daughter being brought to the Orthodontist), sometimes for our good (which can be harmless as we are not causing damage to the other person in the process). Our own good could also be considered when we are trying to appease others, sometimes for the sake of our safety. I would consider this a different kind of manipulation all together.

            Manipulation, unfortunately, has a host of negative connotations attached to it which is doesn’t always rightly deserve. We can ‘manipulate’ with good purpose or conscience at times. Is it really then a manipulation or is it encouragement? Manipulation indicates a manner of control, and an attempt to do so. Are we attempting to control for the right reasons? Is there ever a right reason to apply control in this manner?

            I have so many thoughts around this notion, and as a former ‘peacekeeper’ I have cajoled many a time for a sense of safety. I’m not sure the word ‘manipulation’ is appropriate in every context where influence of some kind needs to be applied.

          2. Leigh says:

            LET, I remember TS’ example about her daughter going to the orthodontist. I remember telling TS what she did was ok because it was for her daughter’s own good. I’ve told little white lies to my children as well.

            What I struggle with is that I know I’m manipulating. Most narcissists don’t know they are manipulating or they feel justified in their manipulation. I feel justified in my manipulation. What makes me any better?

            I know that narcissist manipulates in order to ensure they receive the Prime Aims. I also know that’s not why I manipulate. The part I can’t get passed in my head is, why am I any better than the narcissist when I manipulate too? Sometimes I think I’m worse because I’m doing it with intention. There’s a line in Chained that hit me like a ton of bricks. “I care for people because I have to because I am a bad person.” I’m not co-dependent but it still hit me. There’s a cycle. I manipulate. I feel guilty and feel I’m a bad person. I overcompensate by being more understanding than I should be. Then I get pissed off at myself again and the cycle starts again.

            So back to your original statement that we need a different word where influence needs to be applied. I would agree. I think influence and guidance are good words to use. While I have guided and influenced, I’ve also manipulated. Its the act of manipulating that I struggle with. Since coming to this site, it really has made me question why I do it.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Leigh 🙂

            Maybe what counts more when it comes to what we call manipulation is the intention behind it. Maybe that’s what makes it a manipulation – WebMD describes it as the “exercise of harmful influence over others … people who manipulate others attack their mental and emotional sides to get what they want.” Elsewhere it’s described as “shrewd and devious management, especially for one’s own advantage” which doesn’t sound quite as bad … though “devious”? I guess all manipulation is devious, but I assume the harm must come from the intention behind it. Are we seeking to have a ‘harmful’ influence over others, or attacking their mental and emotional state to get what we want (e.g. inducing guilt – I would assume that would come under the notion of ‘attack’)?

            I like guided and influenced as more positive sounding words when you are trying to encourage something that is for someone’s own benefit (as well as your own at times, too) as the word manipulated necessarily is associated with harm for the most part.

            Knowing the difference between our own and the narcissist’s need or desire to manipulate is also important, as you say. As empaths we don’t have Prime Aims, other people to us are individuals with their own needs and concerns. We necessarily take this into account in any act of influencing them. We’re still human, so that doesn’t mean we don’t also have our own best interest at heart at some level, but for the most part we are not seeking to do harm to others. Everyone likes to get their own way sometimes.

            I’m not sure about the cycle you mentioned, Leigh, and I have an element of CoD so would like to understand that sentence you shared a little better. I’m not sure how caring for others because you are a ‘bad’ person fits with the persona of a CoD. Maybe I’m reading it wrong.

            Appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this and look forward to hearing more xo

          4. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, In Mr. Tudor’s book, Chained, he talks about the differing mindsets of an empath vs CoD. From an empath’s point of view its, “I care for people because I like to do so because I am a good person.” From the CoD’s point of view its, “I care for people because I have to do it because I am a bad person.”

            The reason that resonated with me is because when I do something that I shouldn’t do toward my husband or another narc, I start to feel bad or guilty. Then because I feel bad, I allow the toxic behavior to continue. Then I get pissed off at myself for staying or allowing the behavior. Then I will do things to get back at them. The worst part is most of the time they have no idea what I’m doing. I’m sneaky about it. But it makes me feel good to one up them. Then that good feeling makes me feel like a terrible person for thinking that way. Then once again. I allow the toxic behavior, then get pissed off at myself again. Its a vicious cycle and it keeps going and going. I honestly think that’s what I’m addicted to.

            Here’s a real simple thing I do. I want to preface this by saying that I’m very petty in this scenario but it explains my cycle. There is a narcissist in my home, who refuses to wash their cup. I will finish doing dishes and then 10 minutes later they will put their cup in the sink and leave it there. That act sends me to the moon. I’ve asked the person nicely to please wash their cup. Another thing they will do is make a mess, clean up the mess, including the dishes they used but not clean the cup. I kid you not. I’ll say, “why didn’t you clean your cup?” The response, “Oh, I forgot.” Then I’ll say, “you forgot while you were cleaning dishes to wash your cup? I call bullshit!” So the next time I saw that effing cup in the sink, after I feed the cats, I put the dirty spoon in that effing cup. That act makes me feel good and they have no idea I did it and I feel like I one upped then. Its only for a split second though. Then I feel like a terrible person for doing it and I immediately wash the cup. Then they do it again and I’m pissed off again. The cycle continues.

            I will say this, I don’t put the spoon in the cup anymore. I’ve learned that it only makes me feel better for a split second and getting aggravated is just not worth it. Now, I just don’t clean the cup if I see it.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, thanks for that further insight and I had to laugh a little at the example you gave which really helped to highlight for me what you were saying in the previous post.

            The scenario you describe would send me to the moon as well! It is a deliberate attempt to goad you, which is what you are responding to, I think. The narc is displaying an element of passive aggressive behaviour in doing this, and your initial response is to counter that. Totally understandable as it’s not an oversight on their part in any way, shape or form. This is one of the difficulties of dealing with passive aggressive behaviour. It is covert, subtle, hidden. Never stated outright as a ‘fuck you!’ which is what it generally is. You putting the cat’s feeding spoon in the cup is a ‘fuck you!’ right back. It is what it is. In a sense you are defending yourself. It is not OK for someone to treat you that way. The unfortunate part is it’s hard to deal with someone acting covertly in an overt manner, much like you describe in your comment. You can question their motive, they’ll offer what appears to be a reasonable excuse therefore heading off any criticism or responsibility at the pass, and you’ll be left with a sense of frustration about what has just occurred. I’ve dealt with this type of scenario more than I care to remember, and also the guilt associated with it as you’ve described.

            It’s hard not to retaliate. Sometimes our retaliation will end up in a phyrric victory – the narcissist always make sure they win. Part of the cycle with the empath is to feel guilt in relation to having made a retaliatory response. We don’t feel good about doing ‘bad’ things. It goes against our nature. Standing up for ourselves isn’t a bad thing, but using the tactics of the narcissist brings us down to their level. I’m saying all that on the basis I’ve also mentioned here how I aggressively manipulated the last narc in the last instance, but at the same time admitted I did not necessarily feel good about that. I did it because I saw how I had been manipulated, used and abused, and I wanted him to have a taste of his own medicine. That is human nature. The problem with that is if people don’t know when to draw the line and the whole thing escalates. In some ways, it is best if you break that cycle as you have done (though the sense of guilt you experience will not be pleasant). If it escalates, it’s almost a given the narcissist will win in the end because they have conscience or sense of guilt to have to deal with. An empath will always be the loser in that sense.

            A complete break away from the narcissist concerned is always going to be the ideal outcome in terms of resolving the problem. They’ll never stop trying to obtain our fuel and until we learn how to not give it we will always be their victims. I’d be very interested to know what HG’s solution would be to the cup being left in the sink in a situation where you are not yet free of the narcissist. I think you’ve got the right idea on ignoring the dirty cup and saving yourself the trouble in the meantime.

            For some reason I still can’t associate caring for people with being a bad person, or I’m guessing “because I feel guilty”. I care for people because I genuinely care for them. I don’t feel bad and then decide I’d better care for somebody to feel better. I’m going to have to go back to Chained I think to get a better handle on this. Maybe it relates to a CoD’s need to care for other people in order to be cared for themselves.

            Really glad you shared more of your thoughts around this, Leigh xox

          6. Leigh says:

            LET, the way I interpret that sentence is that the CoD feels like they are inherently bad so they have to care for people to make up for being a bad person. I can relate to that because I often felt that way. I often felt and sometimes still do that the goodness that I exhibit is just a show and that the real me isn’t good at all. It wasn’t until I came to narcsite that I saw things differently. When I first got here, I thought I was the narcissist. I had no issue with saying no or doing something that may come off as selfish so I must be the narcissist, right?
            For example, my mom was in the hospital a couple of months ago and I didn’t go see her once. I haven’t seen her in almost two years and I have no intention of seeing her ever again. A couple of years ago I would have felt like a bad person for thinking that way because it felt selfish. Not anymore though. Now I know its because I can’t allow her toxicity in my life anymore and that she’s the bad person, not me. So for the longest time, I felt since I exhibit these bad qualities, I must be a bad person so I have to make up for it.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, thanks for your reply.

            Your words “inherently bad” stood out for me in this comment. It’s given me a much clearer picture of what you were explaining, and I imagine the notion of being inherently bad is one that you have been conditioned to believe. No child would think or believe they were inherently bad unless that is the message they were received.

            I remember as a child my mother gave me a Little Golden Book titled “The Naughty Bunny”. I remember when I read it how I could not see myself as that naughty bunny (it’s behaviours were totally alien to me as I was the quintessential ‘good child’ due to the need to please) and wondered why she had given it to me? I honestly knew in some fundamental way that I was not ‘naughty’ and at the same time she had given me that book as means to put a different message in my mind. She didn’t give it to my brother, she didn’t give it to my sister. She gave it to me. In her mind I was naughty … unfathomable to me then as it is now. I knew I wasn’t, and ultimately I didn’t buy it. The worst part was the naughty bunny was forgiven in the end, and it was like her saying – “You are a naughty child, but I’ll forgive you in spite of all your misbehaviour.” That makes me sick just to think about now. How she was priming me to believe such a thing. Trying to convince me somehow I was bad.

            In that sense, if you have been primed to believe that about yourself, then you are likely to feel a certain way and seek to compensate for that. I may have been rescued from that simply by grace of the fact I had a first grade teacher who showed and taught me differently about myself. She absolutely countered what my mother was trying to do. Not consciously, but as the empath I’ve no doubt she was <3

            When it comes to issues around conscience and guilt, I think that's part of the human condition which the narcissist is generally spared, but they know how to rack up the fuel supply in relation to that. Even if they don't, the empath – more sensitive to these things than say the normals – will often be affected by the circumstances of others and struggle to create the necessary boundaries at times. Our urge to heal and fix, etc., will cause us to break those boundaries even if it is not in our best interests at times.

            Your situation with your mother reminds me of how we can be plagued with the 'right thinking' empaths ordinarily display in terms of caring and concern for others, and we often become our own worst enemies as we seek to apply this right thinking. There's a part of me that baulks at the idea of doing something for others out of a sense of guilt or obligation. I can see how you have no other place to come from if you've been told and believe you are a 'bad person'. Any goodness would seem purely manufactured. That is tragic when there is truly empathic heart beating underneath.

            As far as your mother goes, it is the same as my situation with my mother. I've been NC with her for nearly four years … long before I ever landed here, and long before I knew about narcissism, too … and HG's work on the parental narcissist has been the most beneficial for me in terms of maintaining that. Ultimately, I see the relationship as damaging, that's how I always experienced it, and I have no qualms about cutting her out of my life. She treated me as a scapegoat for most of my life, so I doubt she feels any lack. Plus her 'golden children' (my brother and sister) are there to cater to her various needs. When I was younger I never imagined not being there for my parent's in illness or old age. The thought was unfathomable to me. In some ways, it still is, if one has a parent who isn't a narcissist. In the circumstances, I don't feel like a bad person, regardless of how other people might view me. They are not me. They did not go through what I went through. They have no right to pass judgement. My decision does not make me a bad person. It makes me resilient in terms of standing against abuse and, Leigh, I hope you feel the same.

            I understand the cycle, and it seems like when it comes to your mother you have been able to break out of it. That sounds a lot more like empowerment to me xox

          8. Leigh says:

            Hi LET, I can’t blame any one narcissist for my feeling inherently bad. I don’t always feel that way. I dont know what triggers the feeling. I didn’t feel bad when I had the affair with workplace narc. At least I didn’t feel bad for my husband. But then the fact that I don’t feel bad makes me think I must be inherently bad because why don’t I feel bad. Ugh!

            My father was physically abusive and mother did nothing about it. Im sure that contributed to me feeling this way. With my husband he thinks he is the best husband and does no wrong. So in my head, he’s saying that I must be the problem for the issues in our marriage because he’s a good man and a wonderful husband. Here is the real kicker. He doesn’t see any issues with our marriage. He believes its perfect. Double Ugh!

            I was the golden the child for both my parents and I still suffered abuse. My guess is that your brother and sister still believe the delusion. Sometines its hard for people to see the truth. One day the rose colored glasses may come off.

            Thank you LET for your understanding and encouragement. You are in a much healthier place than I am right now and I really appreciate your guidance.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, you’ve had it incredibly tough from the beginning, and it sounds like you’ve been loaded down with expectations since then 🙁 How often you did things because you ‘wanted’ to do them as opposed to ‘had to’ do them is likely questionable. There is often no joy in having to do something, though we can still oblige and sometimes must.

            To feel bad about not feeling bad shows how messed up things can get sometimes. Meaning you could end up feeling bad all the time with no respite, and struggling to know what is right for you.

            I don’t want to complicate things any further by going on about that, but there is definitely an issue if your husband thinks your marriage is good and for you it’s not. I can see how at some point you would take that on your own shoulders wondering if you are the culprit because apparently he has no issue. Narcs, of course, are not allowed to perceive themselves in a negative manner by virtue of their ‘defence mechanism’, so we all end up being the bad guys in our relationships. Double Ugh is right!

            My brother and sister are normals, if not narcs themselves. I’m undecided, but know for a fact neither of them are empaths and I don’t delude myself they will ever come around. They’ve had their rose coloured glasses on for a lifetime, and the reality is even if they have occasionally been forced to remove them, they very hastily put them straight back on again.

            That’s the thing about narcissism. People don’t want to see it. They want other people to be who they want them to be, sometimes need them to be, and won’t accept the possibility that the ‘holier than thou’ mother, for example, may actually be a narcissist. It’s also easier to ignore when you are not the scapegoat in the situation. That’s the reason for the scapegoat. They get loaded up with all the family’s ills as a means of supposedly ‘exorcising’ them. Most narcissistic families will have one. It keeps the narcissist safe and allows others to continue to worship at their feet.

            Just to try and end on a more upbeat note, I hope a healthier place is where we will all be as time goes on. It does take time, but we’ve been given the key enable us to walk through the door that will take us there <3 xox

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            This is such an insightful comment. I get caught up in the negative connotation of manipulation, particularly when it’s me doing the manipulating rather than the reasoning behind why I might be doing it.

            I agree, I manipulate now mostly for ‘your own good’ reasons. I smiled when you mentioned the orthodontist scenario. Xx My most recent manipulation was similar, my daughter was being forced to do swim in PE. She refused, tried forgetting her swim stuff etc. The PE teacher put her on detention and called me the following day.

            My daughter is going through a body conscious stage (she’s 14), so the manipulative tactics were used to support my daughter through this phase and close down the PE teacher, who, as it just so happens is one she had in primary school. My daughter forgot her kit one day, the PE teacher hit the roof, threw a set of keys at my daughter (at, not to) and told her to get unwashed lost property to wear for the lesson. My daughter was 9 at this point. So, I have the fair game element, the teacher is a piece of work, and, I have the protection element.
            So it can’t be said that I was making like Dr Evil, but my tactics for dealing with the teacher were highly manipulative.

            Tactics included, ignoring the call as it came in and leaving it to go to answer. Calling back when the teacher would be under time constraint. Charming the teacher, sympathising with the teacher, use of humour and flattery to further build rapport, before swiftly stating that my daughter has my full support together with a proposed solution. Use of silence, advanced thanking the teacher for her understanding before she fully agreed to the solution, close. So from a manipulation perspective, similar manipulations to a narcissist. From a reason perspective, justified, at least in my mind!

            The fair game element is a strong factor for me. I manipulated bosses in work a lot when I was younger. Not the fair ones though, the shady ones. I worked in an environment where the senior managers would visit international markets, whilst there they would be taken out and ‘entertained’. Some of the entertainment stories were less than palatable. These managers were fair game in my mind and I had no guilt manipulating them for personal gain. Even here, I didn’t cause harm, I just capitalised.

            More recently, as my environment becomes more narcissistic, I think I see more situations where the protagonist is fair game. So there is an element of justice involved, but most often I probably manipulate defensively, to protect or as you say in a ‘for your own good’ capacity.


          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, TS, the old “Mama Bear” syndrome xox

            That teacher does sound like a piece of work and is it something about PE teachers as a whole? I had a nasty piece of work when I was in secondary school and she loved to humiliate people. She had been some kind of star athlete, I think, and our less than competent efforts were probably below her usual standard 😛 My daughter also had a PE teacher in secondary (middle daughter) who had the class all do a fitness test (boys and girls) together to test their level of fitness. She baulked at doing hers in class with everyone else watching on for a similar reason to your own daughter (body conscious) and I supported her in requesting she be allowed to do it outside of class time, no suggestion she shouldn’t have to do it at all. It was a male PE teacher, so that probably didn’t help, but she did it outside of class time and it wasn’t a big deal in the end. The unfortunate part is he wouldn’t hear the request from her and so I had to intervene.

            Not sure I could give a blow by blow description of my method as you have done, but you’re obviously fully aware of your tactics and how they can be used to get the necessary result, and it is a necessary result when it comes to our children. We’ll defend them over and above ourselves on any given day. You may see from my comment to Leigh that I’m still tossing up around the use of the word ‘manipulation’, but if you’re comfortable with it and recognize it as such then there’s no problem with that either. I did say from my perspective it’s got more to do with intent, and righting a wrong or clarifying and issue can’t be a bad thing (as in the case of your daughter and the teacher).

            I see your point about ‘fair game’ and also see that as fair enough 😉 It’s hard to consider people who have no consideration for others, which is what it sounds like in terms of the stories they told.

            If I had to take a quick temperature check, I’d say I’m more forthright than manipulative, and would be better off holding my fire at times, but often I find that impossible. I’m not a ‘game player’, though I mention that with a view to a purely negative sense. I don’t like people who play games. Shoot straight from the hip. I can take it. I might not like it, but you can expect straight shooting in return.

            Definitely justice is at the core of a lot of what we do, I’m a Saviour through and through. So I definitely relate to that element of evening the score. I did manipulate the last narc quite aggressively in the end, rather than defensively, and knew that’s what I was doing. I have no qualms about it. He was a manipulative bastard so definitely fair game. I didn’t enjoy it, well, not too much. Just an intsy wintsy tiny little bit to make up for all the discomfort he had caused me 😉 xox

          12. NarcAngel says:

            I respect teachers for the most part, but any ex star athlete PE teacher doling out humiliation to my child would be treated to a calm but clearly condescending “It must be ever so frustrating for you to be unable to do and therefore left to teach” before they were reported.

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            I found your comment really interesting because you still have narcissists around you on a daily basis, so you’re in a ‘live’ situation if I can call it that.

            In many ways the key difference in the way you view it, is that you feel guilt after having done it, whereas I don’t. Like Alexis I don’t particularly like the thought of being manipulative though either. That has a lot to do with being here, we now understand the various forms of manipulation used by the narcissist, so by using similar manipulations we self reflect and say, ‘So how am I different to the narcissist?’

            I think really, you are different because you self reflect plus you experience the guilt afterwards. Also, your motivation will often be to diffuse a situation with the narcissist, or to protect a family member from the narcissist, including yourself. The times you do it just because you can or for personal gain, are probably due to you being worn down and your empathy being eroded. All of these reasons have justification from where I’m standing because you are ensnared. Honestly, in your situation I think I’d say, do whatever is necessary for you to hold on to your sanity, just don’t get caught! Haha!

          14. Leigh says:

            TS, yes, definitely a “live” situation. Thank you for your understanding. I do self reflect and I do feel guilty. I will say this though, since coming to narcsite, I do feel as guilty as I once did.

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:


            The definitions are really interesting and do help clarify what I’m not doing. I’m not manipulating intentionally to harm someone. Defensively I have but only briefly, a little like you described at the end of your relationship with your ex.

            My mama bear syndrome or ‘for your own good’ isn’t intended to harm, it’s the direct opposite. Yes, PE teachers are generally not a nice breed. Mine wasn’t either when I was in secondary school. The situation with your daughter was very similar. I didn’t want her to get out of swimming but neither was I prepared to allow someone to bully her into swimming, or punish her for not doing so. I wanted it handling properly and my solution was effective.

            I have on occasion manipulated just for fun. Just to see if I could get someone to do what I wanted, I do get a real buzz from it. This is the part really that is difficult to excuse. The intention still isn’t to harm, it’s not about what I get someone to do, it’s the fact I’m able to get them to do it. That’s where the buzz comes in. This is far tougher to explain or justify. There might be a justice element in that I see the person as fair game, or, I might be recognising a narcissist and not realising it, a trigger that causes my empathy to erode. I usually get people through their pride, in that I use their pride against them, so I’m recognising a narcissistic trait, it doesn’t necessarily mean the person is a narcissist though and even if they were, it doesn’t automatically green light me to manipulate them, not really. I still find it very difficult to resist this situation if it presents itself though. Again, I don’t feel guilty afterwards. That does sound very narcy doesn’t it?! Can we put that bit under ‘everyone likes their own way sometimes’ ? Haha, I think we should.

            In terms of terminology, overall maybe I am guiding or influencing most of the time, but I think I have to confess that some of the time I’m manipulating.


          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, TS, I think we can put that bit under “everyone likes to get their own way sometimes.” Thought that might come in handy, and it’s true. I will sometimes ‘influence’ to get my own way if there’s something I really want. But I’m as vulnerable to it (as in being influenced) as I may be to trying it out sometimes. Part of it is putting forward a reasonable argument for what you want. If someone can do that, I’ll have to consider it. The same goes vice versa, I’m also capable of putting forward a reasonable argument at times. This creates space for influence, but manipulation for me would come in where some kind of pressure is exerted also, such as in making another person feel guilty – much like Harry with the Queen, atm, (thought it’s out of her hands apparently) when it comes to security and protection in the UK. The basis of their argument is a manipulation – “we can’t bring you’re great grandchildren for a visit because you won’t provide us the protection we deserve” – trying to engender a sense of guilt or responsibility on another party and therefore motivating them to change their position. It’s very petulant. And also not designed to take the other party’s considerations into account. Not very persuasive at all, and probably not designed to be, as in it’s an excuse for them never to come and visit and blame it on the Monarchy at the same time. This scenario has manipulation written all over it.

            Making a reasonable argument for someone to consider in order to turn events more in your favour, without causing any harm to the other party, I see as influencing rather than manipulating. I think I’m still going to associate manipulation with harm overall. When it comes to getting a buzz out of something like that, I guess I would get excited or be happy if I am able to influence a situation occasionally to ‘get my own way’, but it would usually be on the basis it is an overall positive thing with no harm coming to either party. I don’t think I’d relate this to having a sense of power over somebody else. I’ll be appreciative of their agreement, and pleased at the result. Power, in that sense, wouldn’t come into it for me. No doubt, either way, we can feel good about influencing others, and of course that can lead some people to feeling very powerful. I’m not saying that in the sense you are describing those odd moments, but if we want to move that into more narcissistic territory then we can get a sense of how the narcissist might feel at times.

            At the end of the day, we’re a bundle of empathic and narcissistic traits, and I’m grateful HG has given us the ability to accept both those things <3 xox

          17. Leigh says:

            I’ve been thinking about this conversation a lot. Most of my manipulations are passive. Meaning, I stroke egos and I’m agreeable. I won’t give negative fuel. I can’t do it now. There’s just something in me that stops me from doing it. But the real goal for me is to surround myself with people I don’t have to manipulate at all. Its one thing to manipulate a situation with strangers. Like, trying to get the discount at the store even though you missed the sale by one day. Its another when you have to do it on a consistent basis to have peace and normalcy. The real goad is to get out of the “live” situation because that’s the only way to have real peace and normalcy.

          18. A Victor says:

            I view flirting as a form of manipulation, and one that I absolutely love even though I must keep it under wraps until an appropriate point, as it’s dangerous for me. But it is a little dance, a game, and so much fun, to try to “catch” or “be caught” and see who will succeed. Mostly my other manipulations come out as defensive or passive aggressive. I’m better off not even trying…

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Again, we are in agreement haha! I think you have fully distinguished the differences between influencing someone and manipulating. I agree with the intention to cause harm as being a differentiator for manipulation, I agree also that resolution in normal cases or in prolonged situations would always be the desired outcome.

            The manipulation of your ex, probably the instance you are least proud of, I see as being defence driven, also justice driven but not retribution. Retribution I think is the preserve of the narcissist, with justice more the motivator of the empath. I think there’s a difference.

            Most of the time, I think I’m influencing, certainly if we use this thread as a benchmark. Or, perhaps we use manipulative tactics for a justifiable reason and based on either empathic or narcissistic traits lighting up. The manipulations aren’t drawn out for too long, they certainly aren’t our normal operational setting.

            The worst and most repetitive series of manipulations I did centred around one individual. The CEO at work. He was the manager that would be ‘entertained’ on business trips to certain markets. I suspected the stories were fact, due to who it was that told me, but I also heard the same stories from several sources. They made my flesh crawl but they also conflicted with the character I saw each day in work. The individual himself was always charming with me. I liked him on the face of it. He sponsored me, was good for my career at a time I was only junior in the organisation, so there was no self defence involved in my manipulations, the character himself though, was rumoured to have a sinister side.

            We met in the airport one day, not realising we were booked on the same flight. We checked in together, he suggested we sit next to each other on the flight. He was charming, funny, attentive, attractive. Once we got our bags, we decided to share a taxi. He enquired as to the hotel I was staying at, so we could drop either me or him off first. He was staying in the best hotel in the city, or one of. I was staying in a nice hotel but no where near as nice as his. Hotels were assigned by grade in the organisation.

            I commented how nice it must be to stay in such beautiful hotels travelling for business. I pointed out that he must have stayed in some of the best hotels in the world. I then commented how lucky he was as even he, would likely not stay in those hotels if he was travelling to those places himself, for pleasure. The suggestion being that he couldn’t afford it.

            I said it on purpose. Playing on his sense of pride. As expected, he switched my hotel to the one he was staying in. It wasn’t the hotel I was interested in. It was getting him to do what I wanted him to do. I didn’t cause harm, but I have to say my motivation wasn’t empathic and it wasn’t self defence. I think justice might have had a bit of an influence on me, fair game definitely did. I was much younger then. I think I saw him as powerful, bright and somewhat of a challenge.

            It’s very possible he was a narcissist. If so I don’t know him well enough to guess the school. Maybe my empathy eroded in line with that. Maybe, or maybe I just did it because I could. You could even question who manipulated who?

            Good job we aren’t supposed to be angels!


          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, enjoyed hearing your thoughts again, and tbh I felt like I was in full ‘retribution’ mode when I manipulated the last narc at the end. I wanted him to pay, but you’re right in saying there was an element of justice attached to that. I would never have done that if he hadn’t done it to me first, and the bugbear for me was that I had fallen for his antics in spite of coming into the initial knowledge of narcissism during our relationship. He must have been laughing so hard behind his mask, to think I had been so taken in.

            I searched the obituaries at the start of the pandemic hoping to find his name there. Thankfully, I’ve come a long way since then.

            That’s such an interesting story about you and your boss, how you sensed an ‘in’ with his narcissistic trait of pride and how that might also benefit you. Fair game does enter the field in those circumstances, and I don’t think I want to imagine what the rumours were about him. But, you took advantage where you saw advantage could be taken. And it wasn’t for any massive personal gain, certainly no harm came to him. In fact, feeding his ego no doubt kept your name in the good books at the time. I’d see that as a very minor manipulation based on the fact empaths are also finely tuned and well able to read people on occasion. You are testing your empathic faculties, even if using them for a more narcissistic end. It happens. We can feel good about our ability to read people in that sense, and sometimes gain from it.

            Definitely not angels, but also not devils seeking the downfall of others. Your gain was really not his loss in the circumstances.

            In contrast, if I could have orchestrated the last narc’s downfall I believe I would have done it. I absolutely despised him in the end. No doubt, it’s our empathy which holds us back for the most part, but I think I’d run out of it at that stage. Or it was dimmed while all those narcissistic traits came to the fore. They flared momentarily and I let them shine. He’d seen enough of my empathy at that stage. He didn’t deserve to see any more. I played him like I’d been played. Regrets? None. He really brought out the worst in me in that sense. The loving, thoughtful, hopeful, kind, considerate me disappeared. In her place was a full blown harpy!

            This is the other danger of narcissists. They turn us into what they are – even momentarily – which ultimately hurts our loving empathic souls. xox

          21. Leigh says:

            TS, I wonder who manipulates who all the time. I say I refuse to give him negative fuel so that means I argue less and I’m more agreeable. Maybe that was his plan the whole time??? He still get the prime aims because he gets fuel because he can control how I react. He’s the puppet master. When I think about it like that, it makes my blood boil. Then i realize that hes not that smart and I doubt his narcissism is that evolved.

          22. A Victor says:

            I think we can control more than they realize, especially if we’re educated about narcissism. We know if they’re causing us to behave a certain way, or if we’re choosing it for our own purposes… 😂

          23. Leigh says:

            I agree! Is he really in control if I’m letting him think he’s in control?

          24. A Victor says:

            See how it works? 😂 It makes me feel better thinking this way anyway…🤣

          25. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yeah, I agree, when you have two very different personalities with two sets of very different objectives, it is hard to tell. I might manipulate for personal gain or out of curiosity in that instance but if he manipulates for time, attention and emotional content then it’s possible he was manipulating me! Maybe, he knew I’d go for his hotel, he just wanted to see how I’d go about it! Haha! Who knows?

            It’s funny what we do instinctively though. I know now that I target pride, it’s my preferred in, but I didn’t think about it then, it was just instinctive. Pride is my own strongest narcy trait, makes sense that I recognise it in someone else. NA made me smile with her PE teacher joke, she would be going for a pride shot too in that context.

            You sound a little deflated since Christmas Leigh. Your last sentence though makes me think you still have your fight. It’s important not to lose your fight.


          26. Leigh says:

            You’re very intuitive, TS. Yes, I’m a little deflated. I think there are a couple of things going on. I’m super busy at work. I hate the winter. Lastly, my husband has been up my ass lately. I just made a comment to Asp that I realized that since he’s taken a break from getting high, he’s much more needy. He’s very draining. I still most definitely have my fight though. I’m just taking my own little respite period, lol.

          27. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Oh you did make me laugh with, “I searched the obituaries” comment. Still chuckling now. You see that to me is your fight, it’s you’re spirit. I see that as being so important for us all, something that has to be held on to at all costs. Without it we could be seriously screwed.

            Yes, I sensed you were questioning yourself a little about orchestrating your ex’s demise. Looking back that is, no guilt at the time. Revenge has negative connotations doesn’t it ? It does until you examine what has to take place for an empath to seek revenge. My view on it is that it comes on the back of a really deep hurt. It’s out of character for us. So to get us to that point, they have to really go some, properly push the boat out.

            The levelling of a score is as close as I’ve really been to revenge. More, “Nah, I’m not letting you get away with that.” For me I’ll bide my time, spy my opportunity, I just like to keep things even haha! I’m fortunate in that I don’t think anyone got to me or hurt me enough to seek true revenge. I’m sad that your narc did hurt you enough.

            In this case, the case of an empath, I have no problem with seeking revenge or fighting back. In fact, my only concern would be that they do it properly, get away with it and don’t place themselves in harm’s way. Similarly, be happy with the revenge. Achieve it if necessary but then just let go of it. Saviours really do like their justice don’t they? We’re known more for flying in and the rescue element, but really, for us, I think it’s justice all the way. Dark justice or light justice as Asp Emp pointed out.

            I totally agree with you, the narcissist can bring out the best in us but definitely also the worst and yes thanks to the empathy, introspection, guilt and all the other stuff we carry around with us, it does hurt our empath hearts afterwards. I still do ponder occasionally the fact that the narc said, “you will leave before I do.” It niggles me, because he was right. The logical side to me kicks in and tells me he was just testing to see how far in I was, using a pity play to draw out some fuel from me. It still niggles though. So, I’m not such a bad empath really haha! I’m still soft in the middle!


          28. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thank you for saying it was my ‘fight’ that was spurring me on in the circumstances with the ex-narc … it’s true! Many a time I would have been screwed without it, so I don’t deny it and at times embrace it. It’s very much a survival instinct, and as AspEmp pointed out could also be part of emotional thinking when tied to the narcissist.

            I honestly don’t know if letting the narc traits shine is part of logical thinking, emotional thinking or neither. I will need to ask HG.

            Certainly the empathic trait of justice lay at the core of all that thinking, whatever it was, so not necessarily ‘revenge’, but there was an element of that as well. Justice and revenge … what’s the difference? I think justice is meeting out a punishment equal to the crime committed (so I guess death was taking things a bit too far 😛 ), whereas revenge is taking pleasure in someone’s downfall or demise. Hmmm …

            The darker side of my nature could definitely take some pleasure out of that, but the lighter side is generally the winner overall, otherwise I wouldn’t be an empath <3

            Since there was no justice – and generally never is when it comes to narcissists – I had to play him at his own game in order to feel vindicated. I didn't need to win, I just needed him to feel manipulated, too. Basically, a taste of his own medicine, so he could feel some of the humiliation I felt. It was never to bring him down, just to pay him back. That's as far as I was willing and able to take it, but it was enough to feel satisfied that he had not gotten away with it altogether and for him to know that, too. He tried to shame me. I shamed him right back.

            Levelling of the score is probably a good way to look at it, so thanks for creating that perspective. I could never level it completely, that would be impossible, but I could feel better about taking it back to him in the circumstances even on a temporary basis.

            A desire for revenge does come on the back of a very deep hurt, and it takes a lot for an empath to get to that point. What I don't think he realized, and I didn't at the time either, is that he had tapped into a lifetime of hurt, and probably got the backlash from that. Everything came together with him, in terms of my realization about narcissism and the affect it'd had on my life. Mine was a primal cry in response to that.

            "You will leave before I do." He knew. Your narc knew that the contract you had signed was for life. You leaving in that sense meant nothing to him. Easy to say. It's neither here nor there whether we leave … we belong to them and the contract doesn't end until either one of us dies. I can understand those words niggling you. It's almost like a challenge being put out to you as well. I dare you to stay. You're not going to make it. I'm going to win. However many thoughts you want to put to that, he's telling you what he already knows … about you and about him … and he wants to put that niggling thought there as a means of you never letting go. It's psychological warfare all the way.

            We are both still 'soft' in the middle, but it doesn't mean we can't develop or improve our armour to defend against narcissists at the same time <3 We just don't want to become 'hard' like them on the inside as well xox

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yeah, I thought you didn’t sound quite right. Sending you a big bear hug and a swift kick in the shins to the narc.

            Winter is tough for some of us, I’m always more up and down at this time of year. You’re getting clipped on all sides by the sounds of it.

            Try to find an escape, even if it’s only for a few hours. Get some space to clear your mind, even if you just get your nails done. Something nice, just for you, where you think about something else other than work or home.


          30. Leigh says:

            TS, I stopped walking too because of the cold. I should just bite the bullet and deal with the cold. Walking is a nice way to get away plus I get a little exercise too.

          31. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Going for a long walk, clearing your head and getting some exercise is a great idea.

            When things get on top of us, exercise is the often the last thing we can be bothered doing. If you can do it though, it does make a huge difference. Something that you do each day that is just for you.

            Get out there woman! Haha!


          32. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I agree, flirting is similar, a circling round each other, a degree of game play. I can’t help myself to be honest, I flirt a lot, but it’s more the enjoyment of the flirting game for me than wanting the flirting to lead anywhere necessarily.

            Flirting helps to rule out a sense of entitlement though that’s for sure. If the guy pushes it on the back of harmless flirtation, then I’d back up automatically. If he pushed it, it would have been a red flag anyway.

          33. Truthseeker6157 says:


            The reply button is so far up, I can’t easily refer back to your comment so forgive me if I miss parts in my reply.

            The thought as to whether we try to level the score against the narc, or take revenge in response to the vile treatment we receive and whether it stems from ET or LT, I’d probably say neither. I think it’s instinct. The way that we choose to execute revenge might well involve LT and the continuation of that revenge possibly ET due to the addiction.

            Even when I made the hotel comment ( this pales into insignificance as I wasn’t in a relationship with this guy) I didn’t think,’I’m going to say this, for this precise reason, head for his pride and get him to do what I want.’ not exactly. It was more a thought that formed as the conversation was taking place. So more instinctive, yet I have to admit I knew what I was doing when I said it and knew what he’d do in response. Difficult to explain.

            In contrast, when I contacted the online narc for that last time, post knowledge, still suffering from the sadness, I knew exactly what I was doing. That was planned. Each word or lack of word, each time left to respond, each lack of response, each question, everything was planned. That was pure manipulation. I wanted to challenge and wound, but mostly I wanted to see him clearly as a narc. HG would call ET. That was present I think, but the manipulation was LT, even to the point I could feel the pull of the addiction and so closed the conversation down until I was good to go again. This was my breaking point, watching him try to manipulate and seeing each manipulation clearly. The sadness just evaporated from me afterwards and I was done.

            When you were in your situation, it wasn’t from a distance, he was right there in front of you, I think instinct was the driver for you. Something just broke, something clicked and you just turned on him. That’s when you started the fight back. You had to, you couldn’t just put the phone down or close an app to get out. It takes time to get out. During this time between just breaking and getting out, that’s likely when the manipulation started, that’s how it would be for me anyway, and we are made very similarly!

            I think you’re INFJ, I seem to remember that was something else we both share as well as Saviour and some shared school elements. The INFJ has to turn on a person before they end it. They can’t end before they turn. The turning of the INFJ though is brutal. It appears as if it comes from nowhere.

            There’s a lot of trash out there about INFJ but this guy explains it very well I think. It’s where the drawing in of emotion comes from that I often describe. He’s odd, quirky but he describes certain aspects perfectly. With HG’s permission I have attached a link for you to listen to. See what you think. He also describes the INFJ stare in another video. This is almost to the letter what happens when I meet someone.

            I really wonder how many empaths are also INFJ, or if this personality type correlates to specific schools and cadres. To overlay that information I think would be particularly interesting. To me, but I’m a nerd haha!

            I think your summary of “You’ll leave before I do.” was perfect. Sometimes it takes someone else to say the words to us before we see it clearly. Thank you for that. 😘


          34. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts around this, TS.

            There’s definitely an element of instinct in the response, and it is a ‘breaking’ of sorts, or maybe an ‘awakening’. Probably a combination of the two. Something finally snaps (in my case a final triangulation in intimate circumstances pushed me to the edge) which also creates an awakening of sorts where you realize this is all bullshit and has been from the beginning. Whether you take the fight back to the narcissist is probably more of an individual thing based on schools and cadres as you say. In my case it allowed both the elements of Super and Saviour to shine by lighting up my more narcissistic traits and calling on the justice element of my Saviour to seek some kind of vindication.

            Maybe in your situation you sought an element of vindication, but I sense it was more a desire to alleviate the sense of sadness he had left you with and a need to confront the cause of that. It was a confrontation of sorts, and I disregard whether these things happen online or IRL, simply because they can affect us as much either way. But the opportunity to go back to him with the knowledge you had meant you could play him at his own game while seeing him for what he was and therefore allowing a release of some kind. That was important for you. The fact you did not ‘snap’ at the time you were still regularly communicating probably left you with a sense of unfinished business. Coming here allowed you to understand more about what that unfinished business was and you found your own way to deal with that.

            I settled the account with my ex-narc before I ever arrived here, but I had a different kind of a hangover. I hated and still loved him at the same time. While I would gladly have seen him dead, and I knew it was over as I couldn’t unsee what I had seen, there was a part of me that still responded to what he had meant to me. That’s the part we often trip up on, not fully realizing it’s ourselves in many ways we fell in love with as the narc showed us our own beauty in their mirror. What he had meant to me was really only a reflection of a true beauty that existed inside me. In essence, I had no need of him, though my own empathic nature convinced me that I did.

            I can very much relate to how you allowed your guard down with the ex-narc, and how he fully utilized that opportunity to draw you in and ensnare you. He was clever, and abhorrent, and the most important thing is you found a way to dissipate the sadness he created in you. There’s nothing he gave you that didn’t already belong to you. He just stole it temporarily in order to shore up his own failed sense of self. I guess you did have a ‘breaking point’ when you saw it was all a charade after contacting him again. It does make a difference when you have the knowledge in hand and therefore are unable to be duped any more. I had some knowledge which helped lead me in the right direction, but I got full clarity after coming here. The best part of being here was it also relieved me of any responsibility in the situation. I had been duped. None of it was real. There was no way I could have known that at the start.

            You are correct when you say it was between the breaking point and getting out that the manipulation or Super element came to the fore. Very much like you, I began to play him at his own game, while implementing my own sense of justice. For you, I think it was about clarity and release, for me it was about rage and retribution. You wanted to let your narc go, I wanted to make mine pay. We were at different places in our understanding and in terms of the knowledge we had gained. Either way, we made it out alive and much better for having found ourselves here <3 xox

            You are also correct in remembering I am an INFJ and I'm always interested in understanding more about my characteristics. That's so interesting about the turning of the INFJ as well. I must be true to my personality type if that's the case! I think the INFJ is the rarest type, so possibly much like the Super Empath they will be less common and therefore a real find for the narcissist (much to our chagrin …) I don't think your link attached, TS, so perhaps there is another way I can find this guy, but I've got a funny feeling I may have already come across some of his videos – the description of 'quirky' is what makes me think so 😉 I'll see if I can find him again.

            Glad to be able to help in terms of the thought the narc left you with <3 xox

          35. Joa says:

            A very interesting conversation about manipulation.

            Women! Do not feel guilty 🙂 People have been manipulating since the world exists. Every relationship and with everyone. Like a MOTHER, manipulates the child from the moment it begins to understand – in order to show the right way, which does not always consist in fulfilling the child’s whims. This is called upbringing. And the baby manipulates the mother as well.

            Manipulation is the basis of being and life 🙂

            White manipulation is like a white lie.


            Usually, I balance the benefits of all concerned, trying to make everyone happy (I think least of myself, but also take into account). Trying to stroke or gently scold and stroke.

            My god, I even manipulate dogs, knowing their characters, expectations and instinctive behavior 😊

            Of course, Narcissus’s manipulation is utterly exaggerated and directed solely at his goal. This is a different caliber of manipulation.


            Leigh, the cup situation. Once I used to be nervous and frustrated too. Unnecessarily. Now I’m in the best mood. Mockery and good humor with a strong needle, that will make the addressee laugh and at the same time convey what he has to convey.

            For example, I would start saying in a serious, frightened tone that there are ghosts in the house and I have proof, come to the kitchen. Show a dirty cup.

            Or I would start singing out loud into a cup – how nice it is when it’s clean and someone hasn’t washed it and I feel so sorry for a dirty cuuuuup.

            Thousands of jokes can be made 🙂

            Yes, humor is the most effective form of “manipulation” 🙂 And the most pleasant 🙂

            Sometimes it doesn’t work right away, sometimes you have to repeat it many times to see the effect.

            As a last resort, I would announce that if the cups are not put in the dishwasher, I will stop making dinners, because I have no place to work. And I wanted to cook… here I put someone’s favorite dish. And I will not – at least less work 🙂

            Alternatively, your favorite cup may break when I put the pan under the faucet. “I did not notice” 🙂

            There is a method for everyone. As my stepfather used to say…

            The most important thing is that you should not be satisfied with a small “revenge”, just to achieve the goal.

            The fact is, however, that I do most of the things myself. But when I want some form of help (rarely), I won’t let it go.

            And believe me, my teenage daughter is a real tough. From the age of 2, she gave me a very hard time 🙂 Stubbornness at the level of 95% / 100%.

            Humor – and this is its greatest advantage – removes discouragement and allows you not to go crazy.

            I use the same methods at work. “My” Narce laughs with me all the time (apart from the chief boss, because it’s a different rank, only a smile when I want to give it to him). Sometimes I die of fatigue. Rarely – I keep quiet. But then it’s really bad. And they know it.


            TS, you amaze me – the story with the hotel. I cannot manipulate when it comes to “material” benefits. At all. Zero. Null. I am a complete dilettante in this regard (that’s why I wear holes shoes all winter, heh :)).

            I have to learn…


            Revenge – this feeling is no stranger to me. Only cold. A circle my torture goes on long and slowly.
            Sometimes I let go halfway, when the wrongs are erased (removed by me into almost oblivion or I see at least partial rehabilitation on the part of the wrongdoer).


            I often read here, that the narcissistic relationship ends, when one of us dies. NO. This is just Narcissus’s perspective. For me, this relationship will not end with his death, it will continue. He will still live in me. Just like everyone who has “entered” my heart. This relationship will not end until I die.

            In short, the narcissistic relationship ends, when the empath dies.

            (Unless, I’m not an empath 😊).

          36. Joa says:

            I was still thinking about this topic, during my morning bath. And I have to add quickly.

            Girls, don’t feel guilty about the manipulations you are using. It’s bizarre and self-destructive. I believe that women are masters of manipulation. Womens had to develop it, being physically weaker, having the most important role to play – raising and educating a new person. Unfortunately, there are “mistakes” of nature that, instead of working FOR HUMANITY, work FOR THEMSELF – as we know, also among women.

            The goal is the most important. And this goal is to educate new people to be wise and good. These two things must go hand in hand. Stupid good is ineffective (as HG writes) and can cause damage. Wise bad – you know 😊

            Have you noticed that Narcissists are usually men raised close to women? This is why they can manipulate better than other men.

            Unfortunately, they use hard manipulation, selfish manipulation.

            I extend yesterday’s sentence: The basis of being and living in interpersonal relationships are two things – manipulation and negotiation. Both things happen on a subconscious level, often without words. Everyone conducts a kind of unwritten negotiations with each other, setting the plane of mutual relations. The trouble with narcissists is that, they break the fundamentals of negotiation. Something that for normal people is as common as bread: I smile because I like you – you reciprocate because you like me too, I hug you because I take a step closer – you give yourself a hug because you want me to come closer (really). Narcissus breaks the foundations of interpersonal negotiations. Foundations of interpersonal unwritten language.

            Narcissus is not a perfect manipulator. We can do it as well. Narcissus is an ordinary swindler.

            Impostor, that I MUST pacify, ha ha ha 😊

            Manipulation itself is a positive thing. Manipulation is an educational process. A process that should end at a certain stage and then only small adjustments can be made. Manipulation does not hurt, it is clean and good.

            See that I’m doing something wrong? I’m not perfect. Manipulate me, show me. But manipulation shouldn’t hurt, it shouldn’t hurt, it shouldn’t be a sharp weapon. Manipulate me well.

            That is why I am drawn to N. The educational process is still not over there. And it even has to be much bigger – because some woman has obviously failed.

            Yes, it seems like a pointless expense of strength and energy. Although I am happy with every effect that I force and force life. Even the smallest. Small.
            It is like a magnet for me. That’s it.

            I’m resting for now. I am reading. I think.
            My stupid smile worries me, when I think about the future.

          37. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Sorry for the late response, Word Press seems to be very selective in terms of what I can receive or not receive these days!
            I read you sometimes and I think “This person understands you better than you understand yourself.” There are very very few people that I can say that about but you are one. Xx

            You got me exactly right. There was a sense of unfinished business. A case of “Come on then, let’s see you do it.” When he did, and I understood each move, I think it just didn’t mean anything to me anymore.

            The motivation for my gamble was the sadness. No one had really made me feel sad before. I’m a resilient thing really. I dip down but I always pull up. I dip down for other people too, then pull us both up. Here I was just caught on the down, and it scared me that I couldn’t pull up. I functioned just fine, I was great at playing me, but I wasn’t me. It just sat there in the background. Nothing seemed to work, functioning in some ways is worse than being unable to function. To play yourself isn’t healthy. I wasn’t genuine, I was just pretending to be.

            It’s addiction. There was a missing link somewhere. You don’t feel like that one week and feel better within days. It proves it was an emotional addiction. I know HG is absolutely correct in this because my own turnaround proved it to me. It was the strangest feeling, I could almost feel the release, almost see that sadness drain out of me.

            It was a catch 22 really. I almost left too soon in a way. I needed to recognise him with new knowledge to be able to switch off from him. Similarly though if I hadn’t left early my ET would have prevented me understanding what was truly going on. Caught in the middle, out but not out.

            To have the narc triangulate you in an intimate setting, is just vile. I can only imagine. Disrespect at its utmost. I totally understand how that would bring on tipping point or realisation in you. I totally see the switch to revenge or retribution on the back of that realisation. I imagine it was a bit like having blinkers removed and seeing everything clearly whilst asking, “How did I get here? How did I not see you for what you are?” Then sheer frustration at being conned.

            We are duped and through absolutely no fault of our own. Honest people just don’t see them coming. Now we do. We get the gift of knowledge here, but what what we really get I think is the gift of sight. Our range of vision broadens and we see things we never saw before. That empathy of ours brings such a tight focus, that we disregard the detail. It takes something to shake us awake, the triangulation in your case was the shake.

            HG and his dispassionate approach provides that shake when it doesn’t happen within the relationship. It’s a wake up call that says “Open your eyes, take a proper look, it isn’t real.” It isn’t real, only our part in it was ever real. It’s damn hard to see it though.

            You sound really strong now LET. Really strong. I know you struggled a little at the end of last year, but I think you’re ready for the next bit, whatever you decide the next bit will be.


          38. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thanks for your reply and I was glad to see it 🙂 WP is not always our friend, though I do find it easier to respond on WP due to the fact it’s easier to access a ‘reply’ button. It’s not so good on notifications at times!

            Thank you for the compliment <3 and I feel the same xox

            I think your second paragraph really brings it all home and I'm glad you finally achieved your release. Your third paragraph really touched my heart <3 That inability to pull out of the sadness when you had always been able to achieve that before, and the fact you were in some way disconnected from yourself as a result of the cognitive dissonance. We lose our sense of self as the narcissist takes it over. That may well be where some of your sadness came from … you were losing or had lost yourself somehow. Bringing it back to him helped you to find yourself again. You saw how he did the trick, and the trick lost its power over you x

            You're right in saying the blinkers came off in a more brutal fashion with my entanglement and he was fully exposed in that moment, as was I. I was exposed for the fool I had been and he was exposed for the bastard (oops, sorry, narcissist) that he was. No sadness for me, only anger. At least in that moment. Either way, we both gained sight, which was what we needed, and whether through sadness or anger we found our way here <3 Definitely our vision has broadened and we are taking in things we never took in before. Sometimes I would rather be blinkered again … it's not a pretty sight … then I think of how grateful I am to be weaponized against the narcissist going forward. In that sense, it was worth the pain.

            HG does shake us awake, one way or another 🙂 Good to know I'm sounding strong in the aftermath, TS, as are you <3 We've moved on since we arrived here and the moving on continues. My future as yet remains undetermined, but I'm slowly emerging from my shell xox

          39. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I forgot again! INFJ brutality was by Frank James. I agree, we’re more than one thing x.

            Also, I was teasing on the other thread. Well, teasing us both actually about our attention to background sounds in the videos. I didn’t hear the cap go on the Mont Blanc pen. I was joking and was supposed to tell you that in the last line of the comment. I forgot to add it though, I was writing so late, I just pressed send!

            The joke is no good when you forget the punchline TS!!


          40. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I found him before you gave me his name, and he was the guy I’d seen before 🙂

            LOL to forgetting the punchline 😛 I just think it’s interesting the way we tune into different things and how we interpret them. I feel like you pick up on a lot more than I do when it comes to the details sometimes, and it’s a little like some of the bloggers noticing elements in the images HG posts which totally pass me by! The many parts go to make up the whole, as they say, and you could safely assume HG had a Mont Blanc pen even if you didn’t actually hear the cap go 😉

            Might be time to catch up on some sleep as well xox

          41. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha, I thought you might find him. I only stumbled across him very recently. His early videos were great, his new stuff, not so much. He’s better just talking and trying to express his thoughts as opposed to dumbing down and being more produced.

            I know what you mean about the images, cluehunting in that sense is lost on me. I just don’t see it, even if it’s pointed out to me! I do really love a lot of the images, they’re dream like in many ways. I think I look, then my imagination runs off with the image as a whole and I am incapable of breaking it down into parts. I actually think there is an element of me not wanting to break the image down because I like the overall feel too much. I’ll analyse something to within an inch of its life normally but not the images.

            The narc used to say ‘probably’ a lot. Nightmare for me haha! Probably isn’t definitely, but it’s likely, so we’re on the positive side of no then! He knew I’d tie myself in knots over things like that.

            Me too, I find it interesting to hear what people pick up from the videos, see in an image or interpret in a word. As a group, I think we are just curious people. Like in the INFJ video, almost everything is grey, very little is black or white for us. it stands to reason that we’ll reach into things and look at them from all kinds of different angles.

            I don’t think normals do that, they’re far closer to black and white thinking which is likely why they feel boring to us at times. Top line only, just use the nouns, where’s the magic in that ?!


          42. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS 🙂

            Can’t remember when I stumbled across the guy we are talking about, but it was a while ago. I watched a couple of his videos which were entertaining, but I’ve never been too caught up on the INFJ thing. It is what it is. I don’t change who I am based on someone’s interpretation of who I am. If that is me, then so be it. I’ll carry on regardless. What’s interesting to me is to understand that in some ways we can be categorized and what that means. I guess it means in some ways we can know ourselves better, in terms of our personalities, strengths and weaknesses, and also understand or appreciate elements of ourselves which we either didn’t understand or appreciate before. Things like why some people like to party and others prefer just a small group of intimate friends, why people are drawn to tell some people their stories and not others, etc. It’s fascinating to discover what makes us up as individuals xox

            I’m a bit like you when it comes to HG’s images. I savour them, but not in the sense of wanting or needing to analyze them as much as just appreciating their beauty or their creativity. I think I’ll land on creativity there 🙂 I enjoy how the images relate to the articles and find significance in them that way. I totally admire people here who can piece things together in way to make discoveries about HG. That is an awesome talent to have and definitely something I’m not particularly strong on. Like you, I’m inclined to think deeply about other aspects of the work <3

            "Probably" … arrrgh … so indefinite when you are looking for something definite. I'd be likely to say "What do you mean, probably?" and get into a discussion about the likelihood and being more definite around that. It could work along the lines of "if this happens, then … it will" and "if that doesn't happen … it won't". Now I just have to see what happens! But at least I'd have some defining terms.

            Something like this:

            "Daniel, is Barbara Broccoli coming over for dinner tonight?"


            "What do you mean, probably?"

            "Well, if she doesn't have to wait for a call from Director, she said she'd be over."

            Now I have my defining terms 🙂

            No closer to knowing if Barbara will be over for dinner or not, though 😛

            That one would tie us both in knots!

            As an INFJ I feel very black and white sometimes … I'm going to have to go back to find out where I left my shades of grey 😉 Maybe I'll look for the video on that one! We definitely reach into things, though, as we turn them over and look at them, maybe to see what black and white conclusion we will come to … at least for me <3

            Haha, TS, "just use the nouns, where's he magic in that?!" Indeed. We want the adjectives, expressive words, that add meaning and which create magic xox

        4. Joa says:

          Already in my teens I realized that I could manipulate. It was in this most narcissistic period of my life that I honed this skill with real pleasure …
          I have my little sins on my conscience.

          People manipulate. It is a mere fact. It is important for what purpose and how the manipulated people feel.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Thank you for your response, HG. I understand what you are referring to. I also re-read some of the threads on ‘Why Am I Behaving Like a Narcissist’.

        I think my question was whether an empath knows why / when / how they are ‘responding’ when they are ‘wounded’.

        RE: your words “is driven by alternative behaviours” prompted further reading and reflection.

        Some people may become consciously aware of what their ‘triggers’ are, some people may never ‘recognise’ them, wherever those external stressors come from. It depends whether they understand their own instinctive and / or emotional, and / or cognitive ‘responses’ to situations and / or people around them, whether that is directly, or indirectly.

        I think the key words can be viewed in similarity to your words “because we are intimidated by what is happening in the present.” (extracted from your ‘Digging Up The Past’ article). In my view, empaths can also be ‘intimidated’ by their external stressors. And, is, also further supported by your words in your ‘To Control is to Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation’ article “A lack of control now returns us to the lack of control then”. I would suggest that empath ACONs would also have the instinct and / or cognitive memory – again, whether this had been ‘explored’ and / or ‘accessed’ to be able to ‘recognise’ it within themselves.

        Thank you, once again, for your response, HG. It is much appreciated 🙂

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Asp Emp,

          Thank you for writing this comment. I see your thinking here. If I’m manipulating, chances are there is a reason for it, I might not always be recognising consciously what that reason / trigger is.

          Justice plays into it I think, which to me is the ‘fair game’ aspect. Rather, my perception of justice in that situation or related to that particular person. Justice is a key driver for my cadre, my school likely feeds in to my manipulative side too. School and cadre essentially are derived from conscious past experiences or experiences filed away in the subconscious, so your points make a lot of sense to me.


          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for responding to my comment. Interesting to read your perception RE: it’s about ‘justice’.

            When HG suggests that empaths do manipulate, I explained my understanding and how I see it from some aspects where certain behaviours are coming to the fore as a result of an empath being ‘wounded’.

            I would suggest that the trait of ‘justice’ can ‘manifest’ itself in different aspects, ie for ‘black or white’ reasons as a response to the same ‘environment / circumstances’.

            What is an interesting consideration in regard to what I have just typed, is, when ‘white’ justice is being applied, it is for the good of people = the empathic side of justice? It can also be used for a person’s own ‘benefit’ yet when the negative emotions are involved, it is not necessarily considered ‘white’ but is ‘black’ = narcissistic streak of justice?

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m liking this discussion, we’re drilling down into the nuts and bolts. I see what you mean as far as empathic traits and narcissistic traits go. When I think about it, I think manipulation / influencing to ensure a desired outcome can occur due to activation of empathic or narcissistic traits and even a combination of the two.

            Taking the PE teacher example above and thinking how I felt. My daughter was clearly uncomfortable from a body consciousness standpoint about going swimming. She had been put on detention for refusing to participate. I felt sorry for (compassion) her because the discomfort is genuine. I also thought the detention was unfair ( empathic justice). She’s my life and joy, so I’m always going to feel protective.

            I spoke to my daughter to establish exactly what was making her uncomfortable. Was it a changing room issue? Was it walking out to the pool in a swimsuit, waiting at the side of the pool etc etc. (Truthseeker). I asked my daughter to recount EXACTLY what she said and the response of the teacher and asked her about the teacher generally ( Truthseeking to assess character). Once I realised it was the same teacher from primary school, I hissed inwardly. So at this point my feelings changed and I thought ‘Ahh, you again.’ ( Anger at past interaction). I still encouraged my daughter to participate by working round the issue with her and once we established a solution I agreed to support my daughter by speaking to her teacher. ( conflict resolution). As soon as the call came in, I felt riled ( defiance) and the tactics of calling back under time constraint, charm etc were moves just to ensure agreement, ( perceived justice for my daughter) it’s easier for the teacher to agree than disagree etc etc.

            The drivers were the empathic traits originally but I think the decision to manipulate came more from the firing up of my narcissistic traits. I would always have manipulated a bit in that situation, because I rely on it for the win, (pride) but it was that specific person that brought out the darker and more manipulative side.

            A lot of the time I don’t think we really think about why we react in a certain way, manipulate or go on the defensive, pull up the shield etc. Some triggers could be due to emotional ‘wounding’ or cues that we subconsciously recognise from past experiences without consciously registering them as the trigger for behaviours. Both sets of traits must influence our responses though. The schools and cadres likely are a strong indicator as to how often dark or light justice would be used, or perhaps how likely we would be to use one over the other. My narcissistic traits are quite high, but I’m not an ACON so I might have fewer triggers, but be more inclined to turn dark for example.

            Interesting thoughts Asp Emp, thank you again for sharing them. Xx

          3. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. RE: your first paragraph, I agree on the concept of the ‘combination’ yet I suggest that one of the ‘responses’ occur at one time, not necessarily two at the same time ie jump from one to the other is possible within seconds, depending on the factors occurring.

            Self-consciousness about the body is a huge thing for someone who is young. I know from personal experience – muvver was the instigator, nobody else in my family, nor at school called me ‘fat’. I was never bullied about it at school, nor by any teachers. In this ‘instance’, there is 4 ‘directions’ yet I have pointed out one where I was concerned as an individual. Then, by the end of the first year, I had lost so much weight that I was not ‘fat’ and yet muvver said to me ‘you need fattening up again’. Just similar to LFS’s father’s ‘sayings’.

            RE: swimming at school I attended, when it was the ‘time of the month’, girls did not always go swimming and were excused.

            Some young people are more sensitive than others about situations / environments. Sometimes it’s sensory-related. For example, a brace, cochlea implant, spectacles, hearing aids can be considered as ‘unnatural’, especially for those that were not born with those ‘items’ fixed on them already. Just like wearing some items of clothing may have a similar ‘response’, ie feeling too tight ie a polo necked jumper (FFS – I avoid like the plague). Maybe it is similar for boys, wearing shirts and ties at school. Adult men can select wider collars and will object immensely if it is a uniform imposed on them. So, if a shirt does not ‘fit’, it does not fit.

            I am just giving some examples. Also for others on this blog to consider.

            When I came to KTN, I was not as aware of myself as I am now. I know what makes me ‘tick’. However, during my time on KTN, I have become more ‘fine-tuned’ and do not react ‘instantly’ as much (ie the number of triggers are not necessarily less) BUT I do not let my ET ‘take over’ as much as it would have done in the past. The severity of my anger and / or stress has dropped significantly. That is my effective brain “re-programming” that I have achieved. I recognise it in my interactions with other people outside this blog.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts too, TS 🙂

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Muvver sounds horrible, let’s just start there. It sounds like she just picked on the easiest thing. Girl’s shapes change so much at that age. It’s no wonder they get so sensitive about it. To play on that sensitivity is a low blow.

            My mum had her moments, but I consider myself lucky that she didn’t go for the physical aspects when I was growing up. Do you remember the catsuit phase? Haha. I remember getting ready to go out one night only a couple of years older than my daughter is now, coming down in a black catsuit and my dad making a buzzing sound (wasp, arse too big). My mum told him off straight away. He was right though, it did nothing for me. I still trust my dads opinion on what I look like to this day. Most of the time he’s complimentary. Sometimes he’ll say, “I’ve seen you look nicer.” Haha, ok, got it dad. It’s context isn’t it? My dads comment from a narcissist would mean one thing, from an empath and given my personality, it means something entirely different. It’s no wonder we get so confused.

            Yes, I agree the traits would light up separately, not together if talking about light and dark. Being on the autistic spectrum I can understand that you must have more triggers to deal with.

            That reminds me to check the boychild’s shirts. He’s growing at a hell of a rate just now. For me it isn’t turtle necks but wool. Some days wool irritates me to high heaven so I can understand your irritation at certain types of clothing or material.

            I’m really happy for you that you feel so much better Asp. You sound strong, content within yourself. Your time here and the work you put in has paid off. It’s really nice to read.


          5. Asp Emp says:

            TS, RE: muvver. I have shared so much of what she did on this blog so quite a ‘picture’ of my experiences can be put together on what I endured from muvver.

            Let’s look at muvver’s ‘treatment’ of me from a different aspect – she was ‘tied’ down with children that were in the way of her ‘prime aims’ (in her perception, of course), so she had to ‘manipulate’ in ways that ‘suited’ her best. An empath (ie my grandmother), or a normal would not have even uttered anything about my weight at that important ‘development’ stage of a child’s life. Children who do it are sometimes non the wiser because they are too young to comprehend some of the things that ‘drives’ them, or recognise what ‘sheep herding influences’ are, never mind the ‘perception’ of society either.

            The ‘catsuit phase’ as you call it, parents (whether narcissist, normal, or empath) ‘handle’ it differently. I even had a narcissistic friend (years since no contact with her) – she’d ‘make noises’ about what I wore ie a white pair of jeans that looked ok on me, not tight, just a good fit – she did not want me to pack them for the holidays we were going on together. Throughout the holiday, I ‘learned’ more about her ‘behaviours’. I attracted men. She didn’t attract as many men. She didn’t like that but I did not deliberately / intentionally do anything to ‘rile’ her jealousy more than she displayed. Her mother was a lovely woman. I was obviously doing ‘comparisons’ at that time, because her mother and her were very ‘different’. Now I can clearly see why. The ‘snide’ comments she did, her mother did not do it. Her brother also did, usually towards his sister, not to me. They both were very spoiled and used their grandfather’s money via their mother to obtain what they felt was ‘entitled’ and display grandiosity in the process.

            RE: autism ‘triggers’. Yup, there would be many. But, they would differ from the narcissistic abuse ET related triggers. Yes, autism can contribute to the ET. But if one understands and accepts their autism, they may also ‘learn’ to be able to recognise what is narcissistic ET, or autism related ‘ET’.

            My time here has certainly paid off. I learned a part of my ‘construction’ as an individual was CPTSD related due to narcissistic abuse and “training”. Hence my ‘strength’. My ‘content’ stems from empowerment via HG’s work, even ‘proving’ some aspects of myself that I was ‘right’ all along despite the noises of ‘nay-sayers’, also strengthened further by those who are ‘yay-sayers’.

            “It’s really nice to read” – yes it is, also re-reading what I said at the start of my journey here showing a marked difference in myself as an individual – I call that positive and constructive ‘evolution’.

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts, interesting to read, TS. 🙂

  8. Asp Emp says:


    Wow, HG, “the one year barrier” – that is impressive. You have the patience of a saint compared to me 🙂 Then again, I have learned so much about my ‘anger’, myself and my tolerance ‘levels’ since I came to your blog – no other therapy worked to a point where I am now able to recognise my trigger points and also understand why I was a volcano of fury and a tempest of emotional seas. So, thank you, HG, for providing your work and I will no longer have to ‘shape’ myself to be part of society, I am, and I will be ‘me’.

  9. k mac says:

    So unfair. Maybe I’m sick of strawberry too. Maybe strawberry is being an asshole. But I belong to strawberry. It longer matters how delicious mint chip may seem. They will not hit my sweet spot the way strawberry does.

    1. Joa says:

      K Mac, sometimes it seems to me that we are the first to get bored. And as soon as they notice a delicate first scratch on the glass, they cannot do anything other than shatter the whole thing.

      1. k mac says:

        Great analogy Joa.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      k mac, I like choc mint ice cream too. Lemon flavoured is nice too 🙂

    3. NarcAngel says:

      This reads as a great example of emotional thinking to me. The notion of “belonging” to someone should be repulsive. The “sweet spot” is addiction and continuing abuse. Romanticizing only making the poison more palatable. Free of addiction, it would read as a heroin addict justifying it’s use and declaring that they have no other option but to continue on to death because cocaine no longer does it for them. Would we accept that explanation if the heroin addict was a loved one?

      This is not directed specifically at you k mac. I have read it similarly expressed many times by others and it always strikes me as very dangerous emotional thinking at play. Conning one into more abuse.

      1. k mac says:

        No offense taken NarcAngel. You are absolutely right.

      2. BC30 says:


        Although, I am committed to strawberry ice cream. It is my favorite. I rarely cheat on it. 😀

      3. lickemtomorrow says:

        NA, I appreciate your comment here as I has a similar sense when reading k mac’s comment.

        K mac, I think most of us totally get that element of what could be described as a ‘defeatist’ mentality. Anyone with an addiction would likely come to a place where they wonder “Why even try?” Or, “why not just give up”. This is my lot in life and I might as well just accept it. It easier to do that than to fight it. In other words, “strawberry ice cream will always be my thing.” I’m just going to eat it and let it destroy me.

        Now, I don’t think that is what you are really saying, but I think you are tapping into a sense of despair or despondency which we all feel at times. Hitting these troughs is part of the experience of being released from those trauma bonds with the narcissist. The peaks, or our strengthening to resist the narcissist, will come as well, but the troughs can lay us low for a time.

        I think the most important thing to know right now is that this is par for the course, while it also challenges us to get back on the wagon of resistance which will bring us to the place we need to be – far away from the narcissist and no longer clinging to the illusion of happiness or satisfaction they promise to provide. We all know that is a lie.

        Hopefully reminding ourselves of that makes the strawberry ice cream look a whole lot less enticing xox

        1. k mac says:

          Hey LET ❤
          I now longer partake of strawberry. I feel like it will always be my favorite flavor and one I crave. My addiction is strong and one I must manage everyday. There are moments in time when I struggle more then others. This is one of those times.
          Emotional thinking is my default mode. I have to work extremely hard to pull myself out of it. I’m so thankful to have this community full of wonderful people to come back to.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            k mac, I can relate to everything you say here <3

            I appreciate you sharing your thoughts once again x

        2. Alison says:

          For me personally, it’s more like I bought this giant tub of strawberry and now I realize it’s kind of making me sick and has all these artificial ingredients in it, but I’m the one who made the decision to buy it, so I’m going to keep eating it until it either runs out or I physically can’t stomach it anymore.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Alison, sounds a little self defeating, but it is what it is. An addiction of sorts, and addiction’s are usually self defeating.

            You have a real sense of determination about you which is a positive sign.

            And you’ve come to the right place if you ever decide that you’re sick of strawberry <3

          2. WhoCares says:

            Wow, Alison.

          3. k mac says:

            Love it Alison!

          4. BC30 says:

            Correct. You committed to it. They don’t. Not even when they say they do.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            What a great insight, BC30.

      4. Wendy says:

        Love this comment, thank you NarcAngel!

        1. k mac says:

          NarcAngel is one smart and strong cookie. Not strawberry flavored at all.

      5. Joa says:

        NA, “belong” is a very positive word.

        The need to belong is a natural human need. I belong to this country, city, family.

        This is my child – this is my parent.

        This is my granddaughter – this is my grandmother.

        This is my city – this is our resident.

        This is my country – this is our citizen.

        This is my partner – this is my partner.

        This is my husband – this is my wife.

        Everything is fine as long as the “to belong” is double-sided

        Only in relation to the narcissist is “to belong” a peroyative concept. One-sided.

        "To belong" does not mean "you are my property."


        In my understanding of this word, I would like to BELONG to a man 🙂

        1. HG Tudor says:

          In our world, belong equates to possession. You belong to us.

          1. Joa says:

            Aaaaaa, but it pisses me off!

            I know that, but it’s not my perception 🙂

            Interesting especially at work, when each of the three N’s is pulling me towards her side 🙂 Ouch, I’m battered 🙂

        2. k mac says:

          I feel the same Joa. When you grow up longing to belong, it is a powerful thing.

    4. Alexissmith2016 says:

      It’s really unfair Kmac. But Ns are just fake like an artificial sweetener, the first mouthful tastes okay but then there is a nasty lingering back taste which takes time to get rid of.

      There are people who are exciting and interesting who are Empaths too. HG has often referred to Keanu Reeves as an excellent example.

      1. k mac says:

        Alexis, nah I don’t like him 😁

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          What?? Omg he’s so damn hot! Wow?

          Who would you go for then k Mac?

          The N (well I’m only guessing he’s an N, not had the HG seal of approval) I find the hottest is definitely James Nesbit.
          Mmm he has the naughtiest eyes ever! And they could carry me anywhere at all.

          1. WhoCares says:

            “I find the hottest is definitely James Nesbit…Mmm he has the naughtiest eyes ever!”

            He does have naughty eyes!
            When I looked up who the actor was for one of the kindest dwarves in The Hobbit – I was kind of puzzled at who I found.

          2. k mac says:

            Lol Alexis! I have the hots for Jason Momoa.

          3. BC30 says:

            I am with you. I would likely faint if I met Keanu. ❤️❤️❤️

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Henry Cavill. But, he has to remain in character as Geralt, and, carry me round under his left arm all day.


          5. A Victor says:

            Can I have the right arm then? Geez, hadn’t noticed him before these comments, going to start watching his shows straight away…😍

          6. WhoCares says:


            “Henry Cavill. But, he has to remain in character as Geralt, and, carry me round under his left arm all day.”

            I binge watched The Witcher during the holidays, after my son went to bed…(I haven’t binge watched anything since my son was an infant!) It was seriously for the creature effects…but Henry Cavill is growing on me.
            Wondering if he’s a narc or not…

          7. Joa says:

            My god, middle of the night, and I google the names of ugly guys I don’t know 🙂

          8. A Victor says:

            Haha, same! Googling these guys. Though I must say, James and Pierce have a bit of competition with Nesbit, whew…🔥!

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:



            No. You can’t have the right arm. His right arm is busy, which is why he is carrying me with his left!!


          10. A Victor says:

            Then… Piggy back it is…😁🤣

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Who Cares,

            Me too. I binge watched two series over Christmas!

            He was Superman too. I haven’t watched Superman, but he is too clean cut in that for me to have noticed him. I like clean cut, but clean cut with an edge.

            Is he a narc? I haven’t researched his background so I have no clues to go on. I’ve seen a couple of short interviews. He actually popped up on my tiktok feed talking about his training for season 2. Again, I didn’t pick up on any grandiosity or real self sell. At this point, my first impression would be no.

            I would have instinctively said he was gay, other than the fact he has a girlfriend. Basically, no idea! Haha!

          12. WhoCares says:


            “he is too clean cut in that for me to have noticed him”
            Agreed. He seemed a bit robotic as Superman, but I didn’t watch him extensively in that role.

            I was watching him and Simon Pegg in a YT video on slang, trying to figure him out…not enough to go on. He demonstrated what looked liked genuine embarrassment at some points…but I dunno.

          13. Leigh says:

            Clean cut with an edge. That’s how I like them too, TS. Nicolas Cage in Face Off is a good example of that. Castor Troy was HOT! I will say this though, Henry Cavill as Superman is hot too! You should definitely watch it.

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It could be worse. You could be googling the names of ugly guys you do know! 😂

          15. Joa says:

            TS, each person I KNOW is beautiful in their own way. This is how I feel people and this is how I see them, when I interact with them.

            Even those damned N., who tire me so much 🙂 At the moment I feel like a doormat described by HG. I hate them 🙂 (Bullshit :)).

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Oh go on then, jump on. 😂

          17. A Victor says:


          18. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I would agree with you, narcs can create beautiful things. Aside from art, music or literature, even the regular narcs create a form of beauty in their idealised version of a perfect love.

            The golden period in whatever form that takes for the relevant empath, even those moments of apparent connection, where we feel that no one will understand us quite as well as the narc that stands before us, this is beautiful too, or, appears to us to be beautiful.

            Underneath the beauty though, there lies something very very sinister. The creator of the beautiful piece of music, still gaslights his wife, the author of a favourite book still ignored or failed to take responsibility for his children, the artist or film maker still exploited his friends. For every glimpse of idealised beauty, there is an underbelly of real cruelty. They ARE cruel, even my online narc, one of the most cowardly schools of narcissist, was cruel. To sit back and watch us fight to fix and make things right, to witness the pain of another person and feel no inclination to stop it, is unfathomable to me.

            You will feel drained Joa, but you are no doormat. That’s a phrase coined by a narcissist, which in itself is cruel. Fighting to hold something together takes real metal, real grit to fight and keep fighting for a relationship, or to fight to hold a family together. Even the Super Empath will truly give her all to the relationship until she realises, she will never be able to give enough and remain herself. To walk away and give up on someone is easy. What they do to us, is easy.

            To allow yourself to be drained down, and it is a draining, like an emotional bloodletting, is giving too much to someone who isn’t built to appreciate the value of what you have to give. It’s like putting diesel in a petrol engine, it will never work. At the point where we realise that someone is damaging us, mentally, or physically, this is the point where the rules of engagement change. Love is about making sacrifices for the ones you care about, but nowhere does it say that love is about sacrificing yourself. When it comes down to choosing me or them, I choose me, every single time. No one gets to take advantage of my good nature, hell no, ‘ you can blow that shit sky high’. You are worth a hundred of him Joa. Choose you.


          19. wensical says:

            TS, that was beautiful! So, so, so true!! Absolutely Agree. Thank you for saying this. We all need to hear this at some point and not forget it.

            Joa! You are worth a hundred of him!! Choose you. 🤗💕

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Who Cares,

            That’s interesting, I look for the same thing as a negative indicator for narcissism too. Do they get embarrassed and, do they display humility or self deprecating humour?

            Taking HG as an example, as adept as he is, I just can’t imagine him doing self deprecating humour. Humility would be a real struggle too, your humble narrator is switched to glorious narrator for example. I think he said humble once, then it switched.

            I actually really like the overt grandiosity in HG’s case, it comes across as tongue in cheek, the fanfare on Ask HG, I absolutely loved that, tickled me for ages. HG is a very rounded out character and his personality appears consistent, so you come to expect the grandiosity, and are almost disappointed if it’s not there, or, I am. He is just one of several characters the man behind HG employs though. Even though I know that, HG has stated it as fact, I still can’t quite believe that HG isn’t actually the same as the man running HG. I want HG to be HG! Meh, pfft.

            Who Cares, I picked up on the same vibe as you, he seems genuine in the few short interviews / clips I’ve seen.

            Leigh, you’re worrying me now. Nicholas Cage, no, not on your Nelly! Nicholas Cage knows how to play Nicholas Cage and that’s it. I can’t see past that, I just can’t. On a positive note though I won’t be fighting you for him. I’ve got enough on my plate trying to dislodge AV from my Henry’s back!

          21. A Victor says:

            Hahahaha, okay, I’ll move bank to James…🤣

          22. A Victor says:


          23. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha 😘


        2. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Ooh kmac jason mamoa, just had a google, very nice!!

          WC, ive never seen the hobbit. Must put on my list. I’m stealing someone else’s joke here, but i would literally crawl over broken glass just to lick the fanny of the last woman who took James Nesbit’s D ahahahah god yeah!

          He could devalue you me as much as he liked, I’d respond to any hoover all, benign, malign, vagine he’s fucking mine hahaha

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hahaha! Brilliant.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Haha Alexis, yes, I can tell you like James.

      2. Leigh says:

        Alexis, Keanu Reeves is definitely a good example. I like Kevin Bacon and Hugh Jackman too. Those are two empaths that are HOT, HOT, HOT!!!! Super Exciting too! Who cares if they’re interesting, lol!

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Love Kevin. I don’t know HJ but just had a google. Interesting I bet he must have been on one of HG’s lists becauee I seem to remember googling him before and thinking he looks really narcy for an empath.

          1. Leigh says:

            Yes, Hugh Jackman is on Mr. Tudor’s Empath list. Once I learned he was an empath, it made him that more attractive!

          2. A Victor says:

            He is a hottie.

      3. lickemtomorrow says:

        Alexis, love the comparison to artificial sweetener. I tried several and they all had the nasty aftertaste. There was no hiding it, I’m afraid. Genuine sweetness is much better (empaths), but if that can’t be found then doing without altogether might be the way to go (staying single) 🙂

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          I agree lickem, in truth I’d much rather go without than have sweetener. It’s just nasty. Xxx

    5. Wendy says:

      Kmac, You do not belong to strawberry, strawberry belongs to you! When you, I, all of us realize this, we will be all the better in every way! We are in a traumatized state of emotional thinking that continues to rear it’s ugly fucking head! Those MF’s are sick and delusional and are attempting to make us the same way! Snap the fuck out of it and start thinking logically( Wendy) this is warfare and it’s time to gird the fuck up against this evil….also called narcissism!!

      Not negating you Kmac, trying to encourage you and me and us!!

      1. Wendy says:

        Wow, I’m seriously cursing like a sailor in this one!

        Sorry! 😊

        1. Leigh says:

          Its ok Wendy. We’ve all done. Narcs have that affect on us!

          1. A Victor says:

            Yes! I’ve cursed more on this site than all the rest of my life put together! They do bring it out!

          2. Wendy says:

            Thank you Leigh and AV, I get a little carried away at times! Lol

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