It is only ever a question of time before you go down. If you are one of the lucky ones, you may just reach the anniversary of a year since when I wrapped my tendrils around you and pulled you into my world. For others the marker of a year is but a distant dream as they find themselves cast down from their pedestal after a number of months. I know you all find it so troubling and upsetting that one day you are treated like a queen and the next you are regarded as a peasant but that is the nature of this beast.

It has always been the case for as long as I can remember and unless the next one lives up to expectations and delivers as they really ought to, then it will continue to be the case. I really would prefer that it was not the case. I know you think that I am some kind of monster for revelling in causing you such pain. I recognise that you are staggered that anybody could behave in what you regard as such an inhuman fashion by meting out physical, emotional, sexual and financial abuse but as is so often the case you are too caught up in your own feelings to actually understand why we do as we do.

I do not revel in the act of making you cry by calling you all manner of names and shouting at you. I do not take vast pleasure in saying who you can socialise with and marshalling your finances as if they are my own. The vast variety of manipulative machinations which I produce from my devil’s toolkit are not the source of my pleasure.

Yes, I will admit that I derive satisfaction from exerting such control and power over you, but it is not a huge amount of satisfaction. Why is that? It is for the simple reason that I am superior to you. I am entitled to take such steps and act in this way. It is a given. Accordingly, by behaving in this manner I am simply doing that which is expected of me and that is my right. Thus I am not able to derive huge amounts of pleasure from it. It is not the act which gives me the pleasure but it is your reaction to it.

Your heightened emotional reaction combined with the attention that you give me are the reasons why I must cast you down. I know that you hope that this can be avoided and you believe that there is another way. I know you tried to keep me happy by doing everything you could as best you could in the manner that you thought would meet with approval but you always failed in some way. I know my opinion chops and changes form day to day and from hour to hour.

But that is the way that I am and you availed yourself of my brilliance so now you must endure this part of my nature. I see no reason to change. Why should I alter from being who I am just because you cannot cope with it? Give way, yield and allow someone else the opportunity to fill your shoes and address matters. Have you considered that the reason you were cast into the dirt was because you just were not good enough? Oh I know you tried.

You told me often enough. By God I tired of hearing you whine and moan about how much you do for me and I have no time for such jealousy. That is what it is. You have been exposed to my brilliance and you wanted it for so long. You enjoyed being admitted to my world with all that such admission entailed but then you failed to show the requisite appreciation and respect. I knew what was behind it. You wanted what I had for yourself but that is impossible. I am used to people wanting to claim what is mine as their own.

It is a hazard of being a leader, a pioneer and a person that others look up to. I expect it of the minions that I must interact with, the knee benders, the elbow people and hand-wringers. I can see it in their eyes as they kiss my pinkie ring. They want to be me but they cannot. I am cut from a different and far superior cloth and the best that they can ever hope for is to be included in my court and experience my reflected glory. I expected such petty envy from them but not from you.

You were meant to be different but as so often been the case you proved that you were little better than them. Yes, you showed me some service in the provision of the fuel that I require but as ever it was short-lived and that is why I had to cast you down. You brought it on yourself. You signed your own death warrant and that was why you had to go down. Could I have chosen a different method and allowed you to walk away? No, not at all.

What you must understand is that you feasted at my table. You gorged on my love, you drank deep of my generosity and you clothed yourself in all the appreciation, desire, passion, attention and dedication that I provided to you. I gave all of this in order to receive from you but you still benefitted from it on a massive scale.

Having taken you must pay for it and if you failed to do so in the manner I have decreed then there is no hope for it other than for you to pay with your sanity and your self-esteem. That currency, along with your emotional outpourings became acceptable methods of repaying what I have provided to you. It is not permissible for you to leave with paying. In fact, on your way down, it is not permissible to leave. At all.

131 thoughts on “Down

  1. Asp Emp says:

    TS, thank you for writing your comment.

    HG created KTN because of the number of narcissists (around 16.7% plus) as compared to psychopaths (1% of population).

    3 key things you mentioned:
    “We are debating motivation with only half of the picture”
    That psychopathic personality does not fit HG”
    “we continue on with conjecture” – summarises it well.

    “I think Asp Emp is likely looking at narcissism and psychopathy together with her own personal development and restructuring” – absolutely, and thank you for voicing that. I was reading into secondary psychopathy for my own personal reasons.

    RE: in your comment to AV – it is not lack of information on my part that ‘added’ to my writing my original comment in ‘Down’.

    TS, thank you for sharing your views in this part of the thread. Good of you to voice them as such. In doing so, you have shown that you did not view me in the way I may have been portrayed otherwise. I appreciate reading what you had to say on all of this.

    PS I did not see your comment sooner than now, apologies for that.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Asp,

      I am still following the paper trail of lost comments, so please don’t apologise for missing mine here!

      You’re welcome. Xx.

      I’m still reading about Asperger’s in my spare time and what strikes me is how people with Asperger’s have to adapt repeatedly to their changing environment and the people within it. Nobody adapts to you. It must be a little like standing just outside the majority perspective, morally you fall within it, but your experience of it likely differs to mine. To understand the role that past narcissists, particularly your mother, had on shaping your view of yourself and the way the world functions, must have felt both freeing and utterly mind altering at the same time. I imagine re wiring to be an apt description.

      I found your thoughts about psychopathy really interesting. They tie in closely with my own conclusions. Psychopathy being the core driver but with a requirement for the narcissism to be accommodated.

      I just finished listening to HG’s rather brilliant analysis of Putin. I found myself wondering, who is more effective, the pure psychopath or the narcissistic psychopath? In many ways, the narcissism is the Achilles heel. It relies on validation from other people. The psychopath is self sufficient. That said, the use of other people via the narcissism could enhance effectiveness particularly in terms of the reach of control, character traits and residual benefits.

      Interesting thoughts Asp Emp, thank you for posting them.


      1. Asp Emp says:

        TS, thank you for your response. It does appear that I have some catching up to do at present.

        RE: Aspergers / past narcissists. What you wrote here, sounds about right. So, you can understand why I had assumed that my diagnosis was what I was “seeking” when it wasn’t! I had researched into Aspergers after diagnosis. Yet, it still did not “fill the hole” that I still sensed. KTN & HG’s work was the answer that I was actually “seeking”. It is as if my life’s “search” is more or less ‘complete’. So now, I can just live my life.

        Interesting question RE: “pure” psychopath / narcissistic psychopath. I recall HG’s words “A psychopath does not have to be a narcissist, all have narcissistic traits but some are not narcissists and of course not all narcissists are psychopaths”. Taking his words into consideration, it implies that there is no 100% psychopath without the other dark tetrad ‘slices’. Hence my long comment below 🙂

        Despite Greater narcissists may be aware of what they are, one cannot assume they have the same level of understanding about themselves as individuals in the way HG understands about himself. In this regard, it is probably one key reason why HG sets himself apart, a class of his own. And that there is no comparison. He changed the ‘classification’ as he evolved because he can distinct the differences between himself and those of the Greater ‘classification’. I may suggest that is it not necessarily just HG’s intelligence on it’s own, his understanding about himself is immense.

        I agree that HG’s analysis on Putin is exceptionally insightful and thorough. I also considered the differences ie, one example, prosocial activities. Putin has not “considered” being prosocial at all. Both HG and Putin may have similar “labels” but they are very different people. This in itself, I believe, is a very important ‘lesson’ for people to consider.

        Thank you, TS, for acknowledging my thoughts. Good to know 🙂 And to read what you say too 🙂

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Asp,

          I can imagine that sense of emptiness post your Aspergers diagnosis. To believe that this diagnosis would provide you with answers only to find that it didn’t, must have been soul destroying. Where to go from there? Fortunately, here!

          Yes, I can see the different slices coming into play in different situations but with psychopathy as the main driver. The traits belonging to the different slices I agree would be present in the ‘pure’ psychopath, there’s an overlap of some of those traits anyway, narcissist to psychopath depending on school etc. I think the difference between psychopath and narcissistic psychopath is really just down to fuel. The psychopath likely carries all the narcissistic traits but doesn’t require fuel. The narcissistic psychopath does require fuel but to a lesser degree than the pure narcissist ( as per Putin, Tinder Swindler analyses.

          I wonder how aware Putin is of his psychopathy? He will have some awareness of his narcissism, or at least the requirement for emotional feedback, but I wonder if he is aware of his own psychopathy. I would imagine it’s difficult not to be.

          Yes, the Ultra school. In my view I think it’s a mix of two elements primarily. Self awareness, I don’t believe that the Greaters have such a degree of awareness as regards what they are and why exactly they operate in the way they do. I’d also question if they have any ability to recognise others of their own kind. I think instead, they would see an opponent, a competitor, even a possible threat, but without understanding exactly what this person is and how they are likely to operate. Classification of narcissist is an Ultra differentiator in my view.

          The second element I think is understanding of the empath. The Greater will likely spot an individual that will ‘suit their purpose’. I don’t believe they would be able to differentiate too well between suitable targets though. Again classification and lvl of understanding of the empath I think is an Ultra differentiator.

          I agree also that the change to Ultra likely signifies a degree of evolution and a next level of understanding as regards both elements. Intelligence I think plus genuine curiosity and desire for a competitive edge has facilitated the switch to Ultra without necessarily being a differentiating factor in itself. Looking at Vaknin, he understands narcissism but lacks the accuracy of HG’s system of categorisation. Vaknin believes pretty much all empaths are narcissists. He only holds half the cards despite his intelligence. I’d question also if he has the ability to self analyse to any worthwhile degree. Vaknin focusses outwards I think, not inwards.

          I agree, there are likely many differences between Putin and HG despite the same label. The most obvious being flat affect. We saw similar with the Tinder Swindler who behaved differently again. My gut feel is that HG has a greater self discipline and self awareness, enabling additional control over his own behaviours. Measured, that’s the word, I see HG as being more measured in his behaviour with an exceptionally high level of cognitive empathy.

          We’ve seen three confirmed narcissistic psychopaths, all with the same label, all likely possessing the same traits but with marked differences in terms of which traits are dialled up and which are dialled down, together with vastly different levels of self awareness. I’m interested in finding out how Anna Sorokin measures up. I suspect she also carries the same label but operates very differently and with limited self awareness.

          Absolutely loving the HG analyses! Remember the old Skoll advert? Haha, “ More more more more..”


          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Soul-destroying? Absolutely.

            Interesting to read your views on psychopaths. I think Putin is not as aware of his narcissistic ‘slice’ as much of his psychopath ‘slice’. I believe that Putin does not give a sh*t either way.

            RE: your words on the Greaters – that is more or less what I was suggesting in my earlier comment. And, why I suggested, HG separating himself from the Greaters = classification of his own.

            Vaknin is a dick-head. Empaths are narcissists, in his perception. He is still an ignorant dick-head.

            Using the word ‘measured’ in relation to HG’s control of himself. I’d agree. I think he learned that about himself from an early age and ‘developed’ that aspect of himself greatly through understanding himself more, observing other people, his own personal experiences and since starting KTN blog = part of his own evolution.

            RE: your last paragraph, I think you understand what I was suggesting in an earlier comment in relation to the dark tetrad ‘slices’ and relevant reactions to the LOCE in the now.

            Anna? I think she is similar to Tinder Swindler guy.

            Skol. One L 😉

            Interesting to read your thoughts, thank you for sharing them 🙂

  2. Asp Emp says:

    I typed this up around a week ago or so and did not post it until now…..

    This is my personal opinion. RE: the dark tetrad – psychopath; narcissism; Machiavellian and sadism.

    HG has the “label” narcissistic psychopath.

    A narcissist is formed due to genetic-predisposition (GPD) and lack of control environment (LOCE).

    A psychopath is formed in a similar way as a narcissist.

    However, when somebody has a high level of the psychopath ‘traits’, especially since it is a ‘predominant’ (the primary) when it comes to the GPD neurological pathways of the brain, the other dark tetrad characteristics would become ‘secondary’ within that individual.

    Again, at the LOCE present (the situation / circumstances / person(s) / environment) would ‘determine’ which of the ‘secondary’ tetrad characteristics to “predominate” (alongside the ‘primary’) at that very present moment in time (the ‘now’, this minute, not 5 minutes ago, or in 10 minutes time, now).

    The psychopath being the predominant, one of the other tetrad ‘slices’ could be the dominant ‘secondary’, depending on the LOCE at that very moment. Whether it is the narcissism, or sadism, or Machiavellian. Regardless, it will be a combination of the 4 of the tetrad, in varying ‘degrees’ with the psychopath ‘slice’ predominating.

    In HG’s work, we can see how he has responded, he has shared examples of the when’s, the who’s, the where’s, the how’s and the what’s would cause him to ‘react’.

    HG understands himself very well. He is the only person who truly understands himself at the level he does, through his own ‘evolution’. No-one else has ‘reached’ (the ‘inner’ sanctum) the same ‘level’ of understanding that he has about himself. Even though he has shared on his blog about himself, he has kept these characteristics about himself to himself in his private life, and in his other professional life (outside this blog).

    Self-aware psychopaths do not necessarily share what they are, mainly because some people’s “views” about psychopaths is, more often than not, based on the ‘sheep-herding’ mentality without truly understanding or knowing what a being psychopath is like, having such a “label” stops the majority of them sharing that information about them. They want to fit in society, be part of society and yet they can also ‘hide’ within society and so, effectively hide behind a ‘facade’ that they learned to ‘adopt’ (created, partly because of what they are and society’s “views” about psychopaths).

    Just like my initial hesitancy at joining this blog, just because of the “label”. Eventually, the “label”, in my mind, went from the forefront to the background. It has not disappeared altogether. In my mind, my learning that I have gained here, on my journey here, all of that has ‘taken’ over the “label” of the person who has provided this information for me (and others) to use.

    Even now, the “perception” of society has not really changed in real terms because of the lack of understanding.

    If I have got it any of the above incorrect, then I apologise. I would not have got to know myself better had I not found my way to HG’s site and his work.

    Similarly, in the past, I had reactions from people when I informed them of my Aspergers and / or Deafness. The less “informed” people responded with an “Oh, shit, errmm,….”** – similar to a narcissist’s ‘404’ moment. I have experienced this so many times in my life. Now, I tend to “assuage” by coming up with a joke, or ‘grenade’, or walking away. Or not saying anything at all.

    ** I have to admit, I do have a penchant to feel a sensation of either, delight – a rather sadistic thought of ‘Oh, I’ve made them uncomfortable’ and I can ‘play’ on that (LOL), or, annoyance, like ‘seriously WTF’ – a rather narcissistic thought, alongside with the Machiavellian at ‘they should know’ but they are ‘failing’ me because in some way, it is a ‘systematic’ failure on their part not to know in the first place (possibly the Aspergers mind-set / brain-wiring). This is what I meant when I suggested that I will be “inspired” to annoy the fk out of narcissists in supermarkets. Fk em. LOL.

    Recently, such a moment when I said I am deaf, they did the ‘404’ thing, I just walked away and found someone else.

  3. Asp Emp says:

    HG, thank you so much for your time in moderating your blog. My opinion and views don’t change and thank you for my right to state as such.

    Thank you for your work that gave me what I needed to ‘evolve’ into what I am now and that will not change. I can only evolve into a better version of myself and build on that.

    Thank you, HG x

  4. MB says:

    I’m back here at HGTU taking some remedial courses. Against my better judgement and everything I’ve been taught, I answered a hoover after 2 years and 9 months of no contact and have spent the last several months regretting it. If anybody needs to be on the naughty step, it’s me. 😔 I am happy to report however that after some sound counsel and a slap of cold hard logic, I was put back on the No Contact train heading away from Narc Town. Thank you HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome MB.

    2. WhoCares says:

      MB – I am sorry for the reason you’re back, but cannot deny it’s good to see you around. ❤️

      1. MB says:

        Thank you WC. I’ve been seeing you around on YT. Those likes you get…Can’t wait for the Live Q&A! I’m getting my questions together.

        1. WhoCares says:

          “I’ve been seeing you around on YT. ”

          Haha. Yeah. I tried to lurk for a long time. I don’t really want to embrace more social media. But I wanted to have some say there, lol. HG knows us so well. Pushing on an open door.

          But he always makes it worth our while! Maybe I’ll see you there at the livestream MB 🙂

    3. Z - zwartbolleke says:

      Auw MB 🥺,
      not good news…
      It sucks

      1. MB says:

        Z, it’s all good. I back to my senses now. There’s room for only one narc in my life! Good to “see” you! This thread turned out to be somewhat of a reunion 😊

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          MB, I’m glad you’re out of that shit! When something makes you sick and vomit, you don’t eat it again period! (Yes, I meant it that way too). I’m happy you were back to your senses quickly!

          1. WhoCares says:

            “When something makes you sick and vomit, you don’t eat it again period!”

            Too right, SP.

            MB – what was that comparison to binge-eating Doritos again?

          2. MB says:

            WC – it was probably something about how good they taste at the time but then you always regret it. 😂

            This time there was no sparkle to the narc sprinkles though. HG lifted the curtain and what I used to see as mysterious and intriguing is just a pathetic coverup for being empty. I hung on before to figure him out, see what makes him tick and learn to break through in a meaningful way. Now that I know the behavior isn’t what it appears, he disgusts me.

            In my defense, I have some major stuff going on in my life that made me susceptible to the hoover. Still, I knew better and I should’ve done better.

          3. A Victor says:


            “This time there was no sparkle to the narc sprinkles…he disgusts me” This is what we aspire to. Thank you for sharing, so glad you have achieved this! Glad you found your way through it and back to a good place.


          4. MB says:

            A Victor, thank you.

            I’m a testament to HG’s warning: “There is always, I repeat always the risk of a hoover.” As strong as I thought I was, as weaponized with knowledge as I am, I still fell prey to my ET.

          5. A Victor says:

            You see, this is the reason that it is somewhat scary to get back out into real life. It doesn’t mean it won’t happen, it just means that I have to feel ready, and I don’t think this is something to rush. I am happy for those who are already there, of course, but your story is one that suggests caution is in order. Thank you again MB.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You did do better. You checked in here and ran this guy by HG. Now you are back in the right place getting the support you need. These are all the sensible things to do. You understand what happened, where your blind spots were so you have moved forward and will be more wary next time.

            I’m sorry you got caught, if only for a short time, narcs suck, but you did all the right things afterwards so be proud of yourself. 😊

          7. MB says:

            Truth seeker, Awwwe thank you for your words of encouragement. ☺️

            I would like to add some advice for anybody here dealing with hoovers: it’s MUCH easier to IGNORE a hoover than it is to try and resume no contact after responding to one. My anxiety and ET are off the charts. Ignoring him feels cruel and rude and is literally making me feel ill. I know from past experience that it will subside. I just have to put in the time and use my rubber band!

          8. HG Tudor says:

            It’s far easier to ensure they don’t get through in the first place MB

          9. MB says:

            Indeed HG. You’re correct. Sneaky bastard got through the one place I wasn’t able to keep him out.

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I think hoovers are one of the things I dislike most about narcs. If they just left us alone after things ended, I think we could move on far quicker. They just keep coming back though and opening the wound. It is hard to ignore a hoover, the nicer you are the harder it is I think and for the reasons you state.

            Put another band on MB! In fact, put another two on! Haha!

            Stay strong, it’ll pass.


          11. HG Tudor says:

            If you have a solid no contact regimen, there is nothing to ignore. The hoover does not get through.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Agree HG, a solid No Contact regimen does prevent hoovers.
            Your lot are pretty sneaky though too.

            The online narc requested to join my team in an online game the other day. Changed his user name and sent a usual join request. I knew it was him because of the new name chosen, I recognised the account layout and it fit timing wise. Had it been another date, or he changed his account layout I wouldn’t necessarily have registered it was him. Another team member could have accepted the request and he would have been in and chatting under a different name.

            I don’t think empaths necessarily see all the moves narcissists might make. The assumption is often that we’ve been forgotten about, particularly as time ticks by post ensnarement. The narcissist isn’t in our minds as they were at the start and so on.

            I do agree with you though. Locking down emails, changing phone numbers etc does reduce the chance of hoovers getting through.

          13. MB says:


            “Your lot are pretty sneaky too.” Right?! This one got through on my work email. The only avenue of NC that was left open. I have to look at spam as the filter catches important things sometimes that aren’t spam. I can’t change my work email and I definitely am not quitting my job as the threat is not serious enough for that. I could have (in hindsight) way back when not communicated with him through it. Bad thing is that professional email addresses are published on the company’s website. Work email is a hurdle for no contact regimes.

            I need to research if there is way for a blocked email to be deleted at the server level and not even make it to the spam box.

          14. Asp Emp says:

            MB, I understand your dilemma RE: work email address and being contacted through that. TS’s suggestion to speak with IT department. Or maybe your line manager (if applicable), or HR department. You could request for the one email (including his email address domain) to be blocked through the whole system – so he cannot contact other employees by proxy. In saying that, his emails will not come through to your Junk box either because it would effectively be blocked as it enters the company’s system. It depends on the work email system.

            Or, you could, if you would prefer to, consult with HG to obtain further advice for future use. I am sure HG knows quite a bit about this kind of ‘issue’. He may even know more than the IT guy at your work?

            I hope you can get this ‘wrapped’ up for your peace of mind in this respect 🙂

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, speak to the IT guy at work. IT guys are magicians. Grease his palm with a family size bag of Doritos and a strongly caffeinated drink and then watch the magic!

            I’m awful with tech stuff but it’s definitely worth a go MB.


    4. Bubbles says:

      Dearest MB,
      Well MB, that was a waste of a few several months sweet pea, don’t have regrets …..use it as a learning experience
      No naughty step for you, it’s called being human
      I wish you lovelies wouldn’t beat yourselves up so much …….we’re better than that
      (Note to self …..learn to love yourself more and have fun), especially not over a mere male. There’s nothing to be ashamed of and there’s nothing wrong with admitting it, we all fall backwards once now and then, just gotta pick yourself up again (in my case, it’s literally not so easy ….that’s when I have to call Mr Bubbles and with his bad back we’re truly a sight to behold )🤣
      I be more worried and upset if I broke a nail having just had a manicure 💅🏻 now that’s real regret !!!!
      Glad to hear you’ve had a good dose of Tudor Tonic …..always good for the ❤️
      Hugs to you MB 🤗 great rebound
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Joa says:

        Oh, Bubbles, how beautiful it is!!!

        So much adequate with what I think. So good for MB right now. So good for all of us.

        In addition to clicking “like”, it should be possible to insert hearts for such special posts 🙂

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Joa,
          Thank you petal! You’re too kind … I really appreciate your kind words
          Love you’re self sick …. LYSSK (pink back ground) it’s a website I’m on and this Aussie las is awesome, real, down to earth and no bull … check it out if you can, you can’t help but feel better about yourself …..she’s looks after dogs and is awesome 🤩🐶
          ( I have no affiliation with her at all) ….she’s totally 100% for women
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. MB says:


          Right?! Bubbles is such a bright light.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            MB, I agree. You have a bright light too 🙂

            I hope you are doing ok. It was just a blip (a chink in your armour), you did well to come back here. You’re stronger now and it is good to see 🙂

          2. MB says:

            Thank you Asp Emp. Thats’s very sweet of you to write. ☺️

          3. Asp Emp says:

            MB, no need to thank me, I appreciate it anyway 🙂

      2. MB says:


        You are such a delight! Thank you for the words of encouragement and the reminders. I like being in the group called “lovelies”. I am right there with you on the nail-breaking regrets! Spending money to get mine all glittered up is a guilty pleasure. This “mere male” won’t steal my sparkle! Hugs! 🤗

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest MB ,
          Luv seeing you back gorgeous, even though you had somewhat of a slight hiccup … burp … oops 🙊
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Hi MB

          You’ve been missed. Sorry to hear about your wobble and glad you’re okay. Your empathy shines in overcoming any embarrassment you might (but should NOT) feel in returning here to issue a warning to others that hoovers can and do happen, even after some time free from ensnarement. As you demonstrate – you need only return to the posse, saddle up your Logic horse with Tudor tack, and ride again at dawn.

          1. MB says:

            Hi NA,

            I’ve missed you too. I love your messages. Hi Ho Glitter, away!!! (You didn’t think my horse would be named Silver did you?!) Haha

  5. WiserNow says:

    So… my ears were burning for a reason… I see a previous thread is being discussed in which I was involved. It would be remiss of me to read and not respond, seeing that I have learned a great deal from HG and genuinely appreciate his assistance.

    I still read posts and comments here, although I don’t see that it will benefit anyone (except maybe HG and his fuel levels) for me to take part. I am staying out of the woods because, although the oxygen in the woods is hearty and refreshing to the blood, there are also poisonous substances there and dangers lurking in the shadows just waiting to trip you up.

    I would like to say that I may have been run over, but I soon picked myself up. I was bruised and sore for a few days, however, I applied balm to my cuts and scratches and I am now as good as new.

    Since this current conversation does involve me, I will respond, but only with this one comment. I do not want to make this into a ‘discussion’. If this comment does receive replies, please know that I will not reply any further. I respect all of your opinions and replies, however, I would like to leave this comment as a ‘one-off’.

    If HG will allow this comment to go through, I would like to point out the following:

    – I am no longer seen as a ‘friendly’ or ‘benign’ commenter here. Although HG is likely to dispute my claims, the way I am ‘seen’ is significantly due to HG’s machinations and gaseous smear campaign in addition to the lieutenants and supporters he has ‘recruited’ whether they are aware of their recruitment or not.

    – I am glad to see the naughty step and dungeon are not used as often as they once were as lighthearted jokes and that empaths are more willing to speak honestly without self-flagellating as ‘victims’ to remain in HG’s spurious favour. Of course, if you definitely want or need to remain here as a commenter that is your choice and it will help you to refrain from threatening HG’s control in any way he will see as worthy of retaliation. As he said himself, ‘a transgression needs to be addressed’.

    – The definition of ‘transgression’ will vary from person to person. One person’s transgression is another person’s joke. One person’s unwavering support is another person’s dishonesty.

    – I am also glad to see that some labels are no longer affixed as readily as they used to be. I haven’t seen the terms ‘low-hanging fruit’ or ‘victim hoodie’ or ‘gull’ used for a while, which is an encouraging sign.

    – I see that although I have removed myself as a commenter here and am content to remain a reader, there are some commenters who remain resolutely in place. It makes me wonder when, or indeed if, they will ever leave.

    – It’s also heartening to see that the use of the term ‘suck my dick’ will probably not be used as a knee-jerk reaction and will instead be seen as a sign of instability and emotional reaction to provocation, something we are all open to fall victim to.

    – On the subject of empaths having ‘hearts of gold’, it is interesting that 100% pure gold is virtually impossible to find in nature. The purest form of gold contains 999.99% pure gold, which is known as ‘five nines fine’. Although such gold is described as fine and rare, it is also soft and easily eroded or comes in such small particles that it cannot be used. What a great metaphor.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. “So… my ears were burning for a reason… I see a previous thread is being discussed in which I was involved. It would be remiss of me to read and not respond, seeing that I have learned a great deal from HG and genuinely appreciate his assistance.” – Sense of entitlement, grandiosity, flattery. You are of course welcome to continue your involvement in the discussion but nor are you compelled to do so and nobody appears to have directly addressed you. Therefore there is no need for you to announce your involvement, just comment.

      2. “I still read posts and comments here, although I don’t see that it will benefit anyone (except maybe HG and his fuel levels) for me to take part. I am staying out of the woods because, although the oxygen in the woods is hearty and refreshing to the blood, there are also poisonous substances there and dangers lurking in the shadows just waiting to trip you up.” Contradiction, grandiosity, false humility – if you are staying out of the woods, why are you reading and commenting? Again, you are welcome to do so but you contradict yourself. Your involvement does not necessarily benefit me and you really ought to realise that as a tertiary source responding in writing you are a mere dollop of fuel and therefore that is not really a benefit.

      3. “Since this current conversation does involve me, I will respond, but only with this one comment. I do not want to make this into a ‘discussion’. If this comment does receive replies, please know that I will not reply any further. I respect all of your opinions and replies, however, I would like to leave this comment as a ‘one-off’.” Sense of entitlement, grandiosity, lack of accountability – again, see point above at one re involvement, nobody needs to know whether you will reply or not and it is highly likely that you will reply anyway. You are being prescriptive to people who may wish to comment on what you have written, removing accountability by dismissing any potential replies. You wish to have your say but not be accountable for having a discussion by having your observations challenged or addressed. You issue a provocative statement but wish to counter any challenge of the same. Why not write nothing? But you cannot, you must always speak out and you believe you are always right in doing so, that is somehow rejecting the label of a victim. Your comment has come out of nowhere and you feel entitled to comment as you have done so, based on the spurious connection that this a thread you commented on earlier and that other people have since commented on, even though they are not directly addressing you.

      4. “If HG will allow this comment to go through, I would like to point out the following:” Passive aggressive challenge.

      5. “– I am no longer seen as a ‘friendly’ or ‘benign’ commenter here. Although HG is likely to dispute my claims, the way I am ‘seen’ is significantly due to HG’s machinations and gaseous smear campaign in addition to the lieutenants and supporters he has ‘recruited’ whether they are aware of their recruitment or not.” – Paranoia, provocation, lack of accountability, blame shifting. There is no smear campaign, correct you is not a smear campaign. What are the machinations you refer to? Identify the lieutenants and supporters I have recruited, how did I recruit them? Provide particularisation – somebody coming to my blog and agreeing with me is not recruitment. Do you think I email people and instruct them to join my blog? That is recruitment and if you think that, you are deluded. The way you are viewed is based on YOUR conduct.

      6. “– I am glad to see the naughty step and dungeon are not used as often as they once were as lighthearted jokes and that empaths are more willing to speak honestly without self-flagellating as ‘victims’ to remain in HG’s spurious favour. Of course, if you definitely want or need to remain here as a commenter that is your choice and it will help you to refrain from threatening HG’s control in any way he will see as worthy of retaliation. As he said himself, ‘a transgression needs to be addressed’.” – Invalidation, envy. You are invalidating people who choose to make reference to those labels in a humorous way. You are also exhibiting your envy of the back and forth that exists between people who use those terms and my response to them.

      7. “– The definition of ‘transgression’ will vary from person to person. One person’s transgression is another person’s joke. One person’s unwavering support is another person’s dishonesty.” Sense of entitlement. You are prescriptive in your definitions without recognising that somebody is entitled to disagree with you and that does not make them a lieutenant, a supporter.

      8. “– I am also glad to see that some labels are no longer affixed as readily as they used to be. I haven’t seen the terms ‘low-hanging fruit’ or ‘victim hoodie’ or ‘gull’ used for a while, which is an encouraging sign.” Grandiosity. Who are you to determine whether people should use those terms or not? Yes, you can advance an opinion about them but it does not make it a well-founded one.

      9. “– I see that although I have removed myself as a commenter here and am content to remain a reader, there are some commenters who remain resolutely in place. It makes me wonder when, or indeed if, they will ever leave.” Contradiction, invalidation. You have not removed yourself as a commenter here, you are still commenting. What business is it of yours whether someone remains here for some time or moves on? People remain for a variety of reasons – they are still learning, they want to support my work, they want to support other people who are new to the blog, they want to remain to embrace new material when it arrives, they want to see the outcome of certain aspects of the blog, they enjoy conversing with other people on the blog, they feel supported in their progress by other people, they want to express a voice where they have not been able to do so elsewhere, it is a wet, rainy Saturday and they want some interaction.

      10. “– It’s also heartening to see that the use of the term ‘suck my dick’ will probably not be used as a knee-jerk reaction and will instead be seen as a sign of instability and emotional reaction to provocation, something we are all open to fall victim to.” Bringing Up The Past, Provocation. You keep bringing this up and as I have mentioned earlier, you cannot let it go.

      11. “– On the subject of empaths having ‘hearts of gold’, it is interesting that 100% pure gold is virtually impossible to find in nature. The purest form of gold contains 999.99% pure gold, which is known as ‘five nines fine’. Although such gold is described as fine and rare, it is also soft and easily eroded or comes in such small particles that it cannot be used. What a great metaphor.” Grandiosity. I think you also made an error with your decimal point.

      I make all of these observations for the benefit of other readers because since you have already stated, you will not be replying.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        HG, thank you for sharing your views. And for your time in composing in such detail. I appreciate reading what you have to say here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, HG x

          2. Rebecca says:

            Thanks HG and you’re right. I’m here for the knowledge, fellow support and it really makes me feel better being here. I don’t think I have a heart of gold and the way she delivered her statement about us was rude and uncalled for. She doesn’t personally know me or anyone else on here.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        Wow, HG, thank you for breaking down that response in a way it can be understood.

        Surely there’s no wind left in those sails now. Time for everyone to move on x

        1. Another Cat says:

          I remember you warned us a long time ago LET, and now HG confirmed.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AC, the alarm bells were ringing for me, but my main concern was how it might be impacting others. Whatever I needed to say was probably said in both my comment here and in the previous thread. I appreciate your comment, so thank you for that x

      3. NarcAngel says:


        Excited to see you are putting the Tinder Swindler under the Tudorscope. There is nothing quite like witnessing your dissection of a subject in real time to bolster our skills and aid in our understanding, and you do it with such excellence. With continuing content such as this why would I ever leave?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Precisely NA.

          1. Duchessbea says:

            Great to-the-point comments. I love the way you break down each point for what it is. I’m making a swift exit myself from this. Not getting involved. By the way, hope you and Shield Maiden had a fab St. Valentine’s Day/weekend.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Why would anyone have to justify themselves for not leaving the blog when the accuser herself still remains here?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed SP, hypocrisy as identified.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t even know what this is about and why WN says she is not seen in a good way here; I don’t have absolutely anything against her. I just find that accusation a contradiction plus very insulting to all of us who enjoy being here.

          3. Leigh says:

            Sweet P, Vi & MB, Back in May there was a heated discussion on this article between Wiser Now and other bloggers. Another blogger brought it up last week and Wiser Now saw that it was brought up and made a comment. Then Mr. Tudor responded.

            Here’s the link to the original thread. There are 351 comments.


          4. MB says:

            Thank you Leigh! I’ll pop some corn and read it when I have time.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh I see! Thank you, Leigh. So it showed up randomly because WN commented on a new re-post of “Down” that didn’t contain the whole old thread. I don’t understand why someone would rekindle an old dispute (didn’t read the whole thing and don’t know who it was) but it’s better to move on in my opinion.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            It’s called Bringing Up the Past, SP.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You may want to add an R to make a nice acronym. Like: BURP. Bringing Up the Rotten Past.

          8. Leigh says:

            Sweet P, It wasn’t WN who brought up the old thread. Another blogger commented about the old thread on this thread. WN saw it and made a comment about it.

          9. Violetta says:


            Do you gave a clue where the hell that came from? I’m trying to catch up here.

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I feel the same, Violetta. No clue.

          11. MB says:


            Me too! You miss a lot when doing a stint in the dungeon.

          12. Violetta says:

            Thanks, Leigh. Will read and learn.

          13. Violetta says:

            Don’t worry about the dungeon. I have occasionally quietly checked in of my own volition after surfing employee reviews to see if anyone has trashed Miss Minchin’s School for traumatized Yuppy Puppies lately. I’ve even caught myself doing image searches to see if Wanna-be Playuh-Narc has aged even more unattractively since the last time.

          14. Z - zwartbolleke says:


            “I don’t understand why someone would rekindle an old dispute (didn’t read the whole thing and don’t know who it was) but it’s better to move on in my opinion.”

            SP, it wasn’t WN, she merely reacted after someone else brought it back up.
            The person who brought it back up did so with the purpose of illustrating personal growth, with regard to ET/LT.

            Agree 👍🏻

    2. JB says:


      I just wanted to make a couple of points, following what you wrote here..

      What you said about no longer being seen as a friendly commenter here – I just want to say, that is not the case where I am concerned, and I feel sad that you feel that way. I don’t follow all of the threads, so don’t know what has happened, but I hope you are able to resolve the issue.

      I must, however, confess to feeling a tiny bit stung at your querying how long we will all remain here. I understood your comment to be implying that we shouldn’t stay here indefinitely, and it felt a little bit judgemental. Maybe I misunderstood, I don’t know, but that was how I interpreted it. So I ask, why can’t we stay, if it helps us to do so? Personally, I like interacting with everybody on here, and it has been my refuge many a time, instead of going somewhere else that I really shouldn’t. I imagine it must be similar for you too, as after all, if you are here reading, which obviously you must have been in order to write your original comment in the first place, then you have also not left the blog..

    3. Savoy Truffle says:

      And here I thought this post was all about MEEE!

      1. Another Cat says:

        Must say this.

        Coool cherry cream nick name you’re having, Savoy Truffle.

        1. Sue White says:

          I want another cat!!

          1. Another Cat says:

            Sue White. You will find one, my crystal ball says.

  6. dave says:

    11.5 months! As usual HG your understanding of your kind is spot on. As is, to our benefit your understanding of our kind. The Carrier Empath Piece was like an autobio!

    1. WhoCares says:

      Good job on the 11.5 months!

  7. Asp Emp says:

    Extracted from an earlier thread:

    Melmel’s partial comment: “we need to be kind to ourselves and each other when we have a set back. It doesn’t mean that the learning has not occurred or that progress has not been made”

    My partial comment: “We all have different perspectives. We all have opinions. We all have personality traits. We all have differentiating experiences. We all have a ‘voice’ and the ‘right to be heard’”

    “If learning from us is to be used against the IPPS, I estimate the damage there has already been done “ – I personally do not believe HG is using what he ‘learns’ from us on the blog against his IPPS.

    HG’s partial comment: “Where you make an observation you can expect people to both agree and disagree and they are perfectly entitled to do so”.

    HG’s partial comment: “Explaining the positive aspects of empathy is not referred to as emotional thinking at all. Emotional thinking is making a flawed decision which is not based on logic”.

    TS’s partial comment: “Lastly, thank you I will continue to respond as, when and in the manner of my choosing “

    NA’s partial comment: “They’re opinions and comments on a blog – not dicks. Don’t take them so hard”

    AV’s partial comment: “it is a balancing act, understanding the blame for each side, taking personal responsibility for our part of it AND not accepting or hoisting blame on ourselves or other victims. We each bring a different perspective“ This is the one comment that prompted me to think, reflect and comment as follows……

    I re-read the whole thread and thought about what was said, how people responded, how I responded. There is no “right or wrong way” yet we all know that there are ‘boundaries’ (in our individual and / or shared ‘perceptions’) of what is acceptable and what is not.

    Having said that, I was reflecting on the recent ‘Muddy Hell’ thread. I have to admit that I was hurt by some of the words. I did not simply “withdraw” into myself, nor from responding where I, in my perception, felt it was appropriate. If I did not ‘respond’, it is because I chose not to and / or delay(ed) in responding. I do not necessarily expect people to agree with what I may have said.

    The thread in ‘Down’ is 7 months since, I can see the difference in myself (my ET / LT) since then, in my view, it has remained constantly ‘consistent’ with no apparent “down-spiral”, nor ‘severity’ in swinging from left to right, back to middle, or left again, in my approach in regard to my lateral / logical / emotional thinking.

    Hence my extraction of partial comments from an earlier thread of this article.

    Someone suggested that HG posts certain articles for a purpose. Of course he does, in his own words “I am the test”. In my view, he also re-posts articles and threads for the same purpose. I’ve said it before, this blog is not just about learning about narcissism, but also an opportunity to learn more about, or understand ourselves (and others) as individuals. Sometimes, HG reposts, as a ‘reminder’.

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Asp Emp says:

        Thank you, HG.

    2. JB says:

      “Sometimes HG reposts, as a reminder” – I sometimes think HG must be a mind reader, as he seems to post the exact articles that I need to read just when I need them!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed. Oh and by the way don’t worry, you didn’t leave the iron on!

        1. Asp Emp says:


        2. JB says:

          Ha ha! See, HG, where would we be without you?!

      2. A Victor says:

        Hi JB, I have wondered about this many times also. He really is a phenom.

        1. JB says:

          He certainly is, AV! Actually made me shudder the first time it happened; thought HG was somehow watching me! 😂

          1. A Victor says:

            JB! Same!! It’s so startling!

        2. JB says:

          AV, you wrote this at 5 in the morning! You must have more energy than me! 😂

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, no, no way! 5 am? No, I think that’s HG’s time. Probably 11 pm where I am. I am sound asleep at 5 am my time! 😃

          2. JB says:

            AV, doh! I am such a pleb, I forgot about the different time zones! In my defence, I have covid at the moment and am suffering from major brainfog! 🙃

          3. A Victor says:

            No problem! I felt silly for saying it was scary thinking of HG ironing his shirts, because I was thinking SP meant at your house! 😂 Which I would find terrifying! Then it dawned on me she had not indicated where he was ironing… Or that he likely doesn’t do his own ironing…😳… So I’ve been feeling silly also and with no Covid brain fog! Hope you’re feeling better soon!

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            He was ironing his shirts.

          5. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, scary!!

          6. JB says:


            Thanks xx

            I think sometimes the replies don’t go under the desired comment, so confusion can sometimes occur! Can make for some very interesting threads though! 😂

        3. Sweetest Perfection says:

          That’s why you buy an iron that automatically turns off after a while without detecting motion. Speaking from absentminded experience!

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      AspEmp, thank you for sharing your thoughts here and although you haven’t mentioned me, you linked to my comment from several months ago. That particular thread impacted me deeply. I could not understand the pure viciousness of the commentary being directed at certain bloggers and felt it was abusive in the extreme. I’m not sure quite what you meant in terms of my comment causing you to reflect, but did appreciate reading the other partial comments you shared and their balanced tone and rhetoric. In comparison, my comment appears much less balanced and perhaps you’re indicating a high level of emotional thinking around that. In some ways, I wouldn’t disagree. I also wouldn’t accept to allow someone to abuse others and not somehow feel the need to intervene. That type of abuse does not deserve molly coddling but a straight up confrontation in my opinion. It’s a little like the guy who ran someone over with his car who was stabbing a woman to death. Others felt helpless to intervene and he felt he had to do something. If I ran somebody over, I did it because I felt it needed to stop. If I’d thought logically about it I might have stood back to save myself from harm and even tried to reason with the person doing the stabbing. I could have simply let people defend themselves (which they were doing), but the onslaught appeared to carry on in spite of their efforts. If this description seems a little dramatic, perhaps its because I’m not over the effects of the ET on this one. I’m Saviour all the way, and someone laughing gleefully about the affect they were having on others, as if there was excitement in all the drama and hurt they were creating, just sealed the deal for me. My impressions were my impressions, my response was my response. I don’t wish to take it back. I don’t feel I would behave any differently if the same thing happened again today. There was a line drawn in the sand for me. Some things you have to confront and some things you have to walk away from … it is definitely an individual choice and everyone is different. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and also your sense of stability <3 It's a wonderful place to be and your measured responses are testament to the fact you are there and thriving xox

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, thank you for your response. The one I linked (yours) was self-explanatory to what was going on at the time. It is very well worded and rather than copy & paste the whole thing, I used the link instead. TBH I do not personally see any high ET in that comment, it is very well ‘measured’ 🙂

        And you summed it up “a straight up confrontation in my opinion” and “If I ran somebody over, I did it because I felt it needed to stop” – absolutely (LOL).

        “I don’t wish to take it back. I don’t feel I would behave any differently if the same thing happened again today”- so good to know and I know you well enough to trust that you would, for the right reasons.

        Thank you for stating as such in regard to my sense of stability. It is good to read what you have to say. It is much appreciated. There is so much consistency (you on your ‘path’) on your part and that has to be deserving of respect in itself. Hugs back to you, LET x

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AspEmp, thank you for your thoughts and kind words again <3 They are very much appreciated and in many ways I will treasure them xox Hugs to you, too 🙂

          1. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you xx

      2. A Victor says:

        LET, I didn’t read that comment as elevated ET, only that you were done pulling punches concerning your personal thoughts on the matter. I also thought you worded it well. That thread was the first that I saw in-fighting on the blog, to that degree anyway, it was very unnerving, I considered leaving the blog over it. But your comment brought some balance back to it, which was helpful, even as it was hard, at the time, to read. I appreciated your comment and I learned from it.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AV, thanks for your thoughts again <3 They mean a lot to me. I also had not seen that before on the blog and I think it took many people, especially newcomers, by surprise. It was unnerving to me as well, and I'm very glad you weren't entirely put off by it and decided to stay. It wasn't a comment I enjoyed making, much like I'm sure an innocent man didn't enjoy running another man over with his car, but making it stop was the main aim. The only way I knew how to do that was to share my honest thoughts.

          1. A Victor says:

            And you did well. I learn, it’s my ongoing assertiveness training, and I thank you for the lesson!

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            My pleasure, AV <3

            It's what we all need to learn x

    4. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Asp Emp,
      Thank you AE, 351 comments back then
      It’s really all about personal growth, which you definitely have achieved AE 🤩
      We have all been given the opportunity to comment freely and in turn, we learn …..thank you Mr Tudor 🥰
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Bubbles, yes it was a rather long thread and it was worth the re-read. Thank you for affirming your testament RE: my achieving personal growth. I agree, that this place (HG’s blog) opportunes us to learn, a lot. Thank you for your comment, Bubbles, hugs back to you x

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Asp Emp,
          I double your hugs 🤗🤗 and some, just keep rocking my lovely 🥰
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, bless you, Bubbles. Thank you, I’ll keep on rocking and keep my ‘light’ shining :-). Hugs back to you, Bubbles 🙂 xx

    5. Leigh says:

      Asp, the person who suggested that Mr. Tudor posts certain articles on purpose was me. It was on the article, “Why Can’t They See it Too?” You also state that on Muddy Hell, some of the comments hurt your feelings. I was part of that thread so I feel the need to address it.

      We have differing opinions. I wasn’t talking about you. I was talking about Mr. Tudor. I don’t know why me saying that Mr. Tudor is a narcissistic psychopath devoid of empathy and derives enjoyment from inflicting pain on others, should hurt your feelings. I merely trying to point out to you that Mr. Tudor is a bad man doing a good job. But you didn’t want to hear it. When he says he’s being pro social, its because he is using less malign manipulations to be more effective at meeting the Prime Aims. Which includes our character traits which he acquires as his own. Has he evolved? Technically yes. But only into a better manipulator, not into someone who now has emotional empathy. Mr. Tudor is now and will always be a narcissistic psychopath devoid of emotional empathy.

      Asp, I lived denial. I had the rose colored glasses on too. I can’t keep going around and around about this though. I know how difficult it was for me to see the truth so this will be my last attempt to try and get you to see it as well.

      Here’s the link to my original comment

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi Leigh, wow, I had not connected so clearly the pro social, using less malign manipulations, as a way for HG to become more effective as a narcissist…that does put a whole new light on it, and not a good one. This new knowledge would be potentially useful in any and all relationships, including that of the IPPS. On the live stream video yesterday, HG said he uses half-truths and nowhere near the truths mostly with those in his private and professional life, because it amuses him to do so. This to me is malign, this to me is not GP behavior, in a genuine relationship (which wouldn’t have a GP in the same way). But, since there is no genuine relationship, it is considered by the narcissist as GP if there is “nice” treatment alongside the deception. The deception in itself is devaluing, from my perspective as an empath. So basically, the way I’m beginning to see it is that there is no benefit to the pro social that can be gained for anyone but the narcissist.

        One more thing your comment brought to my mind was that HG has zero delusion about what he is, therefore, putting the pro social on him and expecting him to “live up to it”, so to speak, is only for the benefit of those who would have him behave the way non-narcissists think is best, which is absolutely different from the way narcissists thinks is best. Since narcissists already think they are perfect, they would not perceive this as living up to anything, they would simply perceive it as not applicable to them, unless it suited their narrative. The very fact of their narcissism negates them living up to our ideals.

        Anyway, thank you for your comment here, it is good food for thought for me.

        1. Leigh says:

          I haven’t had a chance to listen to Mr. Tudor’s live stream from yesterday yet. I would agree that telling half truths and no where need the truths are malign manipulations. I would also agree that deception is devaluing.

          Your second paragraph, I agree with completely. Thank you.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, “Mr. Tudor posts certain articles on purpose“ – I recall suggesting as such much earlier on this blog.

        “We have differing opinions“ – contradictory, especially when you suggest towards the end of your comment “get you to see it as well”. “But you didn’t want to hear it“. Contradictory. Just like you refused to accept my responses to you on the same thread (‘Muddy Hell’). Basically ‘dismissing’ anything I said. At the same time, I get the impression that I have to see it your way instead of having my own “opinion”, effectively, not allowed to have my perspective, my ‘voice’, my ‘right’ to be who, or what I am. THAT is what “hurt my feelings”.

        You kept pressing your “views” onto me, I know what HG is. I do not ignore it. I am not ignorant, either. I never have been. I have ‘dealt’ with my own past quite effectively, I did something about my past, I acted on it, for myself (and others who have had my support). You did not go without my support either.

        Is anything that HG does in his private and external professional life affecting you, impacting your life directly in any way at all? Yes, you may be interested. Then again, it is HG’s life. His business. How he chooses to use / apply his pro-social “activities” are up to him. We all still benefit the free and numerous resources, either way.

        “Here’s the link to my original comment”, I seem to have been sent the link to the whole thread, rather than just the one comment you may be referring to.

        I stated more than once, we ALL evolve. “Asp, I supposed we are at an impasse. We will just have to agree to disagree”.

        I accept that people may also “change sides”. We all know how that feels. We all have experienced it in our past lives. Hence my suggesting that I may have remained ‘consistent’ in improving myself for me. Yet, I may have also ‘pulled the plug’ in some respect too. It should not come as a surprise.

        Hence why I re-read the whole thread of Down and wrote my comment. It was about me, not having my right to have my views, or my voice, or my perception, effectively not being accepted as who or what I am. The great man said it himself. I rest my case.

        1. Leigh says:

          Asp, I feel like your perception of Mr. Tudor is that he’s a good man doing good things. I don’t see Mr. Tudor that way. I wanted you to see that he is a bad man doing good things. I wanted you to see that even though he’s evolving, he’s only evolving into a better manipulator, not someone who has empathy. You’re right, though. I have no business trying to change your mind. That’s why I backed off.

        2. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          Yóu are not having the right to have your views or your voice or your perception on here?

          1. Asp Emp says:

            ZZ, thank you for your response. I just did not appreciate being told to see it from Leigh’s perception, effectively being told how I should view it from her perception rather than have my own perception. My mind belongs to me. No-one else. I have spent a life-time of being “told” and gas-lighting and so on – you already know what that is like.

            I put myself through the very difficult journey by being here and I managed that by being here and on my own in my private life (no family, or friends to share / talk about it in person because they live too far away and social media / phone communications is not really the ideal ‘method’ if you can understand). The people I know in my local area are also “tied” in with the narcissists at work. The Covid situation did not help either.

            Leigh saying (in comment above yours here) “You’re right, though. I have no business trying to change your mind” is what should have been forthcoming a lot sooner than now.

            And this recent ‘experience’ was simply too much.

            At this moment, my ET is right up there because of what I have personally experienced recently.

            I have to state here, that I actually felt in the past couple of weeks that since I have done what I needed to achieve for myself, maybe I no longer need to be here?

            I’ll decide when my ET has come down, I may need to sleep and think on it.

            Thank you ZZ for asking me, I gave my answer (high ET, admittedly). Thank you for listening.

          2. Leigh says:

            Asp, I feel the need to address this since you are questioning my integrity and claiming I’m gaslighting you. Here is my original comment:


            Again, I fail to see how that hurt your feelings. The comment wasn’t about you.

            Here’s another comment from me that I said on that Muddy Hell thread. “Asp, I supposed we are at an impasse. We will just have to agree to disagree.”

            As you see from my comment, I did drop it. You brought it up again on this very thread when you said your feelings were hurt.

            Who is gaslighting who?

            Who is bringing up the past?

            Who is provoking?

            Who is blame shifting?

            Who is triangulating?

            I’m sure I’m going to regret posting this but don’t question my integrity. Its not ok. We had a difference of opinions and brought to another. Again, that’s no ok. I’ve been dealing with narcissists my whole life. Bring it on!

          3. Leigh says:

            Correction: “We had a difference of opinions and you brought it to another level.”

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh Asp Emp,

            A few things sprang to mind when I was reading the discussion about pro social / bad man doing good things / why can’t they see it too?

            Firstly this subject is always going to bring debate and conjecture. It has to be conjecture because we are given only very partial facts about HG’s pro social endeavours. HG hasn’t specified in any detail about what these endeavours are, why exactly he has decided to trial a pro social approach, what the anticipated benefits are for himself in the short medium and long term, and what the impact has been on himself and SM thus far. The odd comment here and there isn’t enough for us to go on.

            Secondly, if we think about how little we understood about narcissism when we arrived here. For me, a narcissist was ‘someone who loves himself’ that was pretty much it. Compare that to what we know now. Imagine now that HG didn’t create ‘Knowing the Narcissist’ but created ‘Knowing the Psychopath’ instead. I would expect a very similar learning curve. Next to no understanding upon arrival on the site through to a high level of understanding now.

            We are debating motivation with only half of the picture. We concentrate on narcissism because we are on Narcsite. If we were on Psychosite, we would be focussed on the psychopathic perspective, not the narcissistic one. HG describes himself as more psychopath than narcissist, so we have little understanding or information on over half of his personality. Worse, when you research psychopathy independently, the focus is on the criminal psychopath, most research was done on low IQ psychopaths in prisons. That psychopathic personality does not fit HG.

            I think this topic causes frustration because it’s just not possible to formulate a balanced opinion with evidence when so much evidence is missing. We get snippets of information about HG’s private life, they might be true, they might not be true. Naturally, seeking answers as the empaths we are, we continue on with conjecture. Some commenters will focus on narcissism only and form a view. Others will try to look at psychopathy and offer their view, others will try to blend the two in order to form a view and ascertain HG’s true motivation in trialling something new. I think we are all in agreement that it isn’t possible for HG to learn / develop emotional empathy. We are also in agreement that HG assists empaths to further his legacy and secure the Prime Aims as opposed to doing it purely out of the goodness of his heart.

            I continue to research psychopathy, mostly because it’s an interesting subject that researchers still don’t fully understand, but the pro social debate, isn’t one I will participate in on the blog. I won’t share my ideas on it going forward because I am aware that other commenters can find my views upsetting or harmful to recovery. I have taken that on board. To slow recovery or to upset other readers is simply not worth the risk in my opinion. Hence my decision not to participate in these discussions going forward. On the last two occasions this topic was discussed, people got upset / frustrated/ had feelings hurt / voiced concerns about a possible delay to their own recovery or the recovery of other readers on the blog.

            In this most recent discussion, I think perhaps Leigh is viewing the situation solely through the lense of narcissism. I think Asp Emp is likely looking at narcissism and psychopathy together with her own personal development and restructuring. If that’s the case, these are two very different approaches and the reasoning behind them is likely getting lost in translation. As an outsider looking in, that’s how it appears to me.

            I can’t speak as to whether individuals are hurt, feel unheard or are dismissive of alternative opinions. That falls to the individuals concerned to resolve. I do think though that if a subject causes upset or the discussion of it risks a slowing of recovery for other readers, it’s worth considering whether to get involved in similar discussions going forward. That boils down to personal choice, and I’ve made mine.


          5. Leigh says:

            TS, I’m only seeing this comment today. I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner. I do appreciate your comment on this. You are 100% correct that I’m only looking at it from the lens of narcissism. If I was looking at it from the lens of psychopathy, I might have a different opinion. My issue wasn’t about Asp and I having a difference of opinion on pro social and narcissism. It started that way but I addressed that on the Muddy Hell thread and then dropped it. My issue was because she came onto this thread and said her feelings were hurt from the comments on the Muddy Hell thread. Then she also went on to say that she was being gaslighted. Just because I have a different opinion than someone doesn’t give them the right to say I’m gaslighting them or hurting there feelings. That’s where I took umbrage.

          6. A Victor says:


            A few things came to mind when reading your comment here.

            First, logic says
            1) HG himself tells us he will not change.
            2) HG himself has told us that the goal of the prosocial is to use less malign manipulations. Fewer or not as malign, both? This we don’t know.
            3) HG has told us that everything must benefit him within his world view.
            4) His world view does not care about a long term relationship, unless it benefits him for his own purposes. To my logic, this is not a positive for SM.
            5) HG has stated that SM is still in the Golden Period. We know that narcissists use corrective devaluations in the GP, they use benign manipulations in the GP and they have zero emotional empathy during the GP, logic dictates that all of these are negatives for SM, so does it make any difference how long she’s in the GP since it is already negative? Not to my logic.
            6) HG has stated that devaluation ALWAYS occurs.
            7) HG himself has told us that he is a bad man doing good things.
            8) HG himself has taught us what healthy love looks like, SM does not have that, therefore my logic says she, within her worldview whether she is aware of it or not, is being cheated.

            Second, what do we care whether we learn about narcissism or psychopathy, or the learning curve of either, if they would help us equally? I understand, from HG on YouTube, that there are far more narcissists in the world, thus the path he took for the biggest legacy. Why do we care if only half the nature is addressed here, do you think the psychopath half is gentler and more sweet? In that half, we have Machiavellianism, psychopathy and sadism. These, to my logic, are not in any way more amenable to prosocial, if anything, they are less so. HG has told us recently that he enjoys inflicting pain, he enjoys his sadism. My logic tells me that extending a relationship is far less important to him, he has stated he can always get another IPPS, unless he sees a benefit that is larger than his drive to hurt people, logically I do not see this happening. Furthermore, there is more information available than only that of criminal psychopaths, in addition to what HG has told us. He called himself “malignnarc” early on, this is a direct reference to the sadism aspect, making HG one of the most brutal types of narcissists there are. He is smart enough not to be caught, but it doesn’t make his actions any more palatable. This not getting caught is one piece that makes him the Ultra.

            I disagree with your opinion that it’s not possible to formulate a balanced opinion and also that so much evidence is in fact missing. It makes no difference if what HG tells us about his private life is true or not, what he has said on the blog, in his books, in his videos is plenty to formulate a balanced opinion on, I feel that those who do not do so just don’t want to accept the truth as we know it at this time. So be it. Hold out all the hope you wish, when HG tells us that he’s been happily married for 50 years and SM was treated well according to her worldview and also with what we know he teaches us is love, then I will eat humble pie. What is frustrating about this topic for me is that there are a couple of people who refuse to accept HG’s very own words about the topic, his own area of expertise. I absolutely also disagree with you on any desire to continue on with conjecture, he has told us all we need to make a full and complete opinion on it. We all know that HG is trying something new with the prosocial, and we all know that he will not change, he will not develop emotional empathy, and we all know what he has previously told us. We know that he’s trying something new because he wants to find out if it will benefit him in any way that he ultimately cares about. The only thing we don’t know is if he will find it ultimately benefits him, for his own purposes, enough to keep doing it indefinitely. There are various trains of thought on whether it is best if it does or not, but that is each person’s individual opinion, mine is not open for conjecture, I will wait and see, just like HG is doing. And until he says it is doing him some good and thus meeting the good doctors expectations and making life wonderful all the time for SM, I am going to continue to believe what he has told us thus far, no conjecture needed.

            I have stated this before, I have also studied psychopathy, for decades. It is interesting, but it is not as difficult as you are making it out to be. There are good things done by people who have it, surgeons, lawyers, politicians etc, but the fact remains none of them have emotional empathy, they are just ones who have learned to harness it and use it to benefit outside of themselves, which is still for themselves via money, prestige, access etc. whatever their particular driver is. HG has told us his driver is his legacy, it keeps his eye on the prize, just like his eye stayed on the prize of watching the shed burn in his recent Burn video. His driver with regard to people is still the prime aims, including SM. The fact that people do what they do with a complete lack of emotional empathy makes them “bad” people, 100% self focused and they will not allow anything to stop them from accomplishing what they need. Bad people doing good things. Yes, I will take the most psychopathic but talented surgeon to operate on my child over the empathic one, just as talented, who may not be able to accomplish the goal due to their emotions. There is a place for these people but they are not “good” regardless of any prosocial they seem to achieve, it is always about them. Also, the only upset I have found within these discussions is when upon repeated comments, with evidence provided, the evidence is tossed out the window because the desire of the reader supersedes the evidence in their own mind, followed by all kinds of “reason” put into place for making such a decision. My initial comments at the outset of our “A Prayer for the Victim” thread were that I want purity for the newcomer. That was never established and you bowed out before concluding the issue. Interesting. I also find it interesting that you decided not to participate in these discussions going forward and yet here you are. I have learned a thing or two throughout all of this, and it has been fascinating. Thank you for the lessons.

            In this most recent discussion, I think it is inappropriate to speculate on where a person is coming from, we need to ask them. That said, these “different approaches” are regarding apples to oranges. Leigh has clearly stated that she understands HG to be a bad man who does good things. Asp has clearly stated she understands HG to be a narcissist who can evolve, meaning learn new things per Asp, meaning per HG, learn new things to benefit his narcissism and make him more effective. As an outsider looking in, who has in fact been within one or two of these debates, this is how it appears to me.

            And finally, people will not have their recovery slowed if the blog remains true to what HG teaches. I think it is reprehensible for you to passive aggressively push your opinion on people as to whether or not they should continue to enter these discussions, because you have (falsely) “made your choice” and decided not to any longer, that is not a call for you to make, it is up to each individual. You are not the arbiter of what happens around here. I plan to enter every single one of these if I so desire, as long as I remain here and as HG allows, for the purpose of purity to what he teaches on this blog and I will do so without accepting blame or shame from you or anyone else. Thank you for my new backbone.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HI AV,

            I bowed out of the previous discussion because you stated you were finding my comments upsetting and that I risked slowing the recovery of other readers for making them. I’m not in the business of upsetting people or slowing their recovery. I find you to be honest in your comments and therefore took it on board that your view might be representative of those held by other readers. As such I ceased to comment further.

            I commented here, solely to point out that each time this discussion has been had recently, people get upset and frustrated and I suggested why that might be the case. Lack of information, plus different perspectives of the same issue with commenters focussing on different aspects: narcissism, psychopathy or a mixture of the two. I haven’t added my own thoughts on this thread about HG and SM or what I think pro social means, why I think HG has elected to try it, whether I think it will work, is good or bad and so on. Just that it appeared to me that Leigh and Asp Emp we’re coming at things from two different angles and frustration was likely mounting as a result of this and lack of information available.

            As stated in my first comment, I won’t further discuss my own thoughts on this topic and for the reasons stated. I asked readers to consider if they should participate in discussions along this vein going forward when it is evident they cause upset and frustration. Many opinions are offered up for consideration on the blog, I don’t see why I shouldn’t be permitted to offer mine here. If your interpretation of that is that I’m being passive aggressive and behaving as blog arbiter, then that is your interpretation AV.

          8. A Victor says:


            The timeline was, I replied to your initial comment to K Mac about HG and SM in order to offset the idea that all was well within their dynamic, which given the evidence in my previous comment, we know it is not. Knowing that this was likely going to challenge you, it did begin things with me feeling on edge. Much later, after trying repeatedly to clarify that singular point, but with no success, I was frustrated and upset by the situation and expressed so. The upset had nothing to do with my initial point, it has everything to do with your unwillingness to acknowledge the evidence as presented and continuing to attempt to push your point, whatever it actually was. Your decision to “bow out” of that conversation indicated to me, correctly or not, that you could not refute the evidence and no longer wished to engage with regard to it. Your opinion of my honesty matters not too me. Even if I was the only one who was feeling as I was, I am still entitled to say it, if HG allows it through. I agree that others, besides yourself, were understanding why I was possibly becoming frustrated.

            Your second paragraph I addressed in my previous comment.

            Regarding your final paragraph, as we all know, there is no reason anyone who comes here should not be allowed to voice their opinion, as long as HG allows it through, you and I included. And this includes with regard to this most basic topic. There is a discrepancy I will address at this juncture, it is important to you that people accept your right to say what you wish, and in this you are correct, and yet you want to shut this conversation down. It makes no sense, especially in light of the substantial evidence we have been given, as presented in my previous comment. That said, the way in which you attempted to shut this conversation down here appeared to me as through passive aggressive and challenging remarks, which struck me as arrogant and inappropriate on a blog that does not belong to you, so I said as much. Regarding your “asking readers to consider”, each reader here can determine of their own accord whether they wish to participate in any thread, or not, they don’t need anyone’s approval or opinion to make their decision, save HG. Go ahead with your conjecture, I don’t read those anyway preferring rather to go to the source himself or to the evidence given us as I understand it, but don’t try to suggest to me that I should not, for fear of overstepping your suggested boundaries, participate in any conversation that appears here.

          9. A Victor says:

            TS, please allow me to apologize. I stepped into this discussion, from the A Prayer for the Victim one, only to clarify my stance on that thread. I did not wish to restart it with you, nor try to convince you of anything, I simply didn’t want my stance misrepresented here. I believe this is a place where we will have to agree to disagree on our view of HG, SM and the prosocial and whatever else. It is not, for me, a problem to do so.

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            No worries, I’m getting very few notifications at the moment and am losing comments too. I’m now having to check by going into the thread list for the blog rather than relying solely on email notifications.

            Thank you for considering my thoughts on your discussion with Asp Emp. I know the two of you get along well and in many ways was attempting to offer an explanation as to why feelings might be getting hurt / frustration might be rising.

            Thank you for explaining your feelings further. I appreciate you doing so.


          11. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Two separate threads, two separate motivations on my part.

            The Prayer For The Victim thread.

            You stated that you found the conversation upsetting and had wanted it to end. I apologised for not having recognised that sooner. When someone states they are uncomfortable or upset by a conversation, then I’m not going to continue that conversation and cause further discomfort or upset. My thoughts on any topic are not of such significance as to warrant them worthy of upsetting someone.

            You stated that my comments were hope giving. If I saw a capacity for HG to make changes, why not your own husband or mother? In my own mind I see HG as a separate case for reasons I won’t repeat again here. I did see your point though and I took it on board. If you or other readers see my thoughts on HG and pro social as hope giving then that could potentially delay their recovery. In that context it’s irrelevant that I personally make a distinction between HG and my own narc ensnarements, what matters is that other newer readers might read those comments as offering hope for change with their own narcissists. Your concern was echoed a few days later in another comment by a newer arrival on the blog, who had also drawn hope from my comments regarding HG. You were therefore entirely right to express your concerns as ‘hope giving’ was never my intention.

            These were the two motivating factors for my decision not to enter into further debate on this topic. Not a difference of approach or opposing views. Simply, “ I upset AV. Another reader might hope for change with their own narc thanks to my views about HG and his motivation for trialling pro social.” That was it. That was the thinking behind me personally opting out of further discussion.

            This thread.

            I read the comments by Leigh and Asp Emp, two people who get along well. In my opinion frustration was mounting due to differing approaches to the overarching pro social / ability to make changes question. I commented here to highlight what I thought was the issue. Furthermore and similar to my view ‘ my thoughts on it aren’t worth upsetting someone over’ my thinking is basically, we have a group of people, who support each other and ordinarily share thoughts openly and compassionately and yet here, again, on the very same subject, they are getting frustrated with each other. To what end? Is it worth it? For me, no, it isn’t. That was my motivation behind the comment here. I don’t like to see two people who I like getting frustrated with each other, so I spoke up.

            As to the more personal nature of your comments to me, namely my reprehensible conduct in commenting here, my desire to passive aggressively push my opinion onto others whilst invalidating theirs, my ‘false’ choice making, my desire to be blog arbiter and tell people what they are allowed to comment on and what they aren’t, my blame-shifting and desire to inflict shame on other commenters for expressing their views. I believe you have made your opinion of me quite clear. Understood.

          12. A Victor says:


            Thank you for clarifying how you were seeing the two threads, differently, and why you left the previous one. That surprised me at the time, it felt unfinished, so I appreciate the clarity on that here. I also understand why you made the comments on this thread, I still disagree with them but now I understand better why you made them, and that they had no bearing on the A Prayer for the Victim post, in your mind. They did connect in my mind, it’s the same topic and the issues you were addressing here were also there and I was involved. I see that as an obvious and natural connection. There is likely still disagreement on narcissists/HG changing, that is fine.

            As to the personal nature of my comments, those were not statements of who I believe you to be, they were observations, albeit under stress over feeling conflict, of behaviors. Since I have previously apologized, I will end here.

        3. Leigh says:

          I need to clear up one other thing too. The thing about this blog that differentiates it from other blogs about narcissism, is its accuracy. Mr. Tudor’s work is accurate and that’s why people come to this blog. They want accuracy. Asp, you were in the middle of conversation with someone new to the blog. I needed them to have accurate information. You told Poison, Mr. Tudor evolved. That’s a half truth. Mr. Tudor has evolved into a more effective manipulator due to the fact that he has acquired empath’s character traits.

          This wasn’t about feelings. It was about accuracy. Somehow or another it got twisted but not by me.

          1. Isabelle says:

            AE, Leigh and AV:
            Quoi quoi quoi? I absent myself from this blog for a few weeks and come back to see that you all miss me so much that you go and do your French impersonations, going all huffy on one another?? I am sorry, but this is clear cultural appropriation, and I will not stand for it !

            Only joking, of course (might as well while we still can).

            Love you all, XX

          2. Leigh says:

            I’ve been meaning to tell you that I love the name Isabelle. Although, I loved Fiddleress too.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Isabelle :-). You did not see me with that MRN, and that was no ‘huffing’ 😉 I am muchly amused though 🙂

          4. A Victor says:

            Haha, Isabelle, I wasn’t huffy on Leigh or Asp Emp! I do think there may be some cultural discrepancy within this discussion though. Thank you for the levity.

            I also really like your new name and agree with Leigh that Fiddleress was also lovely.

          5. Isabelle says:

            Hello AV and Leigh,
            Thanks for what you wrote about my (real) name, and about ‘Fiddleress’, that’s really kind!
            Leigh, at first I thought you were Scottish as I assumed this was your real name – and I just love everything Scottish, including haggis, haha.
            A Victor, this sounds like victory (Victoria?) is on the horizon! My first English friend was called Victoria (Vicky). great name too 🙂

          6. A Victor says:

            Hi Isabelle, I really love your name! I didn’t realize it was your real one, how nice for you! I have a unique name so I would not use it here, I wouldn’t want people to connect my story directly to me, let them wonder, or ask me, 😂. This is course would only be in the event that anyone in my real life came here and read my comments, doubtful. But, due to the personal nature of them, it’s best if I am anonymous. I do like the name Victoria also though!

          7. Leigh says:

            Isabelle, I “borrowed” the name “Leigh” from my brother, lol. I’m American, born & raised in New York. My father was from South America & my mother’s family is from Poland & Russia. I’m quite a mix, lol. My real name could be considered Scottish as well.

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