Bringing the Hurt


I cannot stand to be criticised. I do not remember a lot about my childhood but I do recall that I tried very hard to ensure that my parents, in particular my mother were proud of me. This was difficult. She set high standards which of course were for my own good and to ensure that I strove to be the best because as she told me, I was the best. If I fell short then her scathing criticism of me left me crushed. I felt like my insides had been ripped out and waved about in front of my face and I needed to extinguish that feeling fast.

That sensation of utter devastation if I am criticised has never left me. In discussion with Dr O I have learned that it blossoms from two things. The first is that this feeling of massive vulnerability and wretchedness still persists and I cannot stand it. I think this is peculiar to me because God has made me brilliant but He wishes to remind me of my mortality and therefore causes me to feel such an horrendous pain when I am attacked.ย It sickens me and leaves me wracked with agony. The second is the fact that I should not be criticised and especially not by those who are beneath me. I cannot fathom out how those who are inferior to me have any standing by which they can actually pass judgement on me. That is entirely valid and logical.ย However, this second element ignites inside me something which I have learned overrides the devastation and that is important to me. The sense of injustice and indignation that arises from this undue and unnecessary criticism ignites a fury that is immense. It explodes inside me with unrivalled speed and then erupts with such violence that the initial wretchedness I feel is blown away within moments. I need this rage. I need it to extinguish the horror of the devastation. It needs to burn with such magnificent fury that it strengthens me again. This rage cannot however sit inside of me. It must be poured out and directed. You criticised me, you created the devastation and thus you must feel my immense rage in order for the devastation to be obliterated. In that time you will be obliterated too by my anger, my rage and my fury. But that is collateral damage to my need to remove the emptiness inside. You causedย  my pain so you must feel the cure. I can see it is unpleasant for you, the shouting, the venom, the accusations and vitriol that I send in your direction. Sometimes the cure erupts from my fists. I cannot help it as I must let the rage burn to remove the emptiness. You can help it though ; don’t criticise me.

131 thoughts on “Bringing the Hurt

  1. Stella SHELF Unmaskers says:

    Unbelievable HG!!! But this is written by you or by my narc? Once upon a time he said the exact words that are written in the article, he’s very, very similar to you in his mind-setting and even in relationship with his parents. How could it be’ possibile?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Written by me obviously, Stella and I am not the narcissist you had personal experience of.

      1. Stella SHELF Unmaskers says:

        Of course it’s a joke…I know you are not my narc since he lives in Italy and you live in UK, and that is you who wrote this article..
        Who else should it be’?

  2. Miss_stress says:

    In case my apology seems ambigious due to wordiness. HG, you did not say to anyone I was an N, it was simply a mistake and we can move on now. I apologize for thinking you had said such things and thusly being offended.

  3. I am a HUGE Christian Bale fan too, as you well know HG, but not so much a fan of the Big Black Bat as far as Superheroes go.

    I loved him in Equilibrium and The Machinist.

    I tend to root more for the villains than the superheroes, but is that really surprising. I`d rather blow up buildings and rob banks with Joker than fly around Gotham City “restoring peace” with Batman.

    I`d be the Harley Quinn to your Joker any day, HG.

    1. Miss_stress says:

      The fighter and American Hustle were excellent as well and Many more superb roles.

      1. HG Tudor says:


  4. Miss_stress says:

    Seeing I cannot reply directly to you comment HG I will reply here. I did not read or see those messages between you and Cj from days ago. Only actually saw the one today as I was on same blog article replying to comment of the word quite. I noticed my name mentioned in a reply. So I read it. Where not quite the narc , but I was mentioned. So, you are saying that Cj is at fault for confusing Myself and not quite a narc?

    Then of course, I apologize for my statement that you maligned me, if you did not say such to CJ. Then It was just a mistake, a mix up of names. I did wonder why you would cite such, based on the many responses between us and you previously telling me that I was not an N ,but an empathic co dependent. Recognizing I may have some minor Narcsisistic traits based in abandonment issues. Thank you for the clarification.

    I have been having a bad few days regarding my N and his highly abusive Hoover of me, where he was highly proficient in profanity and demeaning commentary. This was a strategic arguement to put me in my place so to speak….as I made him aware if some Information, he does not wish to filter outwardly.

    I did reply to your messages CJ, I doubt my input is what you were seeking from that knowledge base. I can only comment on what I feel and observe and experience myself at the hands of Narcs.

    1. cjhawkes03 says:

      Your knowledge is fantastic Miss_stress and yes… oce again… apologies on my part for that mistake!!!

      1. Miss_stress says:

        That is okay CJ, it was an innocent mistake, it is difficult to keep names straight on here, I am well aware, I find it confusing too. My concern was not with you, it would be why Hg would say such a thing. It is all resolved , no harm done. I appreciate your message there is no need to apologize to me. I know you were not at fault. HG requested an apology from me for feeling hurt. Which I gave, as he showed he did not say I was an N. So, hence my apology to him for my accusation of maligning me. You, however did nothing wrong CJ. It was kind to apologize, but yours is not warranted.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No I wanted an apology because you were wrong.

          1. Miss_stress says:

            I admitted I was wrong HG, when I know I am it is easy to admit fault. Truce?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Your apology is accepted. Line drawn.

          3. Miss_stress says:

            Yes, I was wrong.

        2. cjhawkes03 says:

          Thanks Miss_stress ๐Ÿ˜Š

      2. Miss_stress says:

        I haven’t much knowledge sadly CJ only my own interpretations and thoughts on the subject matter and what I have experienced. But,if anything I write can be helpful to you then that is wonderful news to me.

        1. cjhawkes03 says:

          Its all learning material for me Miss_stress lol!!! Hearing your thoughts and experiences have already been valuable to me so i look forward to being able to discuss so much more with you in time to come!!! Im more than happy to say that i can definately learn a lesson from others experiences and 1 of the reasons i mentioned also was that some of the comments i have read of your most certainly resonated within me so yes… i thank you scincerly for any input whatsoever you have… any experience you can share, thoughts and opinions that you put forth!!!

          Cheers Miss_stress!!! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  5. Annette Wheeler says:

    Why did you go into therapy?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I was compelled by family members as part of an agreement whereby I would keep my substantial inheritance and avoid certain repercussions arising from certain allegations (which are false by the way) but which would prove a hindrance during investigation et al, even though I would be exonerated in the end.

  6. Lisa says:

    HG having Google this word it say malignant N . ? Is this also known as Peter Pan syndrome ? I thought that was a lesser N ?
    Do any other followers have any information regarding this PPS ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Puer Aeternus is a mythological concept which was utilised by Jung in this works. PPS isn’t recognised as a mental disorder. I would suggest that PPS is a segment of the make-up of our kind, it is not a condition itself but part of what we are and that the idea of a man being socially immature is not something which is limited to a Lesser N. Of course one would need to distinguish between whether this immaturity is allowed to exhibit itself or whether it is kept under lock and key.

      1. Lisa says:

        HG no this is not really kept under lock and key and he would admit to his immaturity. When I first started dating him quite early on he said something to me about Peter Pan syndrome , I had no idea what he meant and just thought yeah immature idiot ha ha . Now having discovered all of this , is is just another way of describing a type of N ?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I think it is part of the N’s make-up but I would not say that it is another way of describing an N.

          1. Lisa says:

            HG so you think he definately is one ?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I cannot say definitely. I would need to know more about his behaviours.

          3. Lisa says:

            Can I post his behaviours on here and you can say yes or no? Please HG

          4. HG Tudor says:

            If you wish.

  7. cjhawkes03 says:

    “…causes me to feel such an horrendous pain when I am attacked. It sickens me and leaves me wracked with agony.”

    Its funny that you write these words describing how you feel as this is exactly what you make us feel…. the ones who suffer at your hands and your inability to accept your shortcommings.

    I am learning so much so quickly that i cant help but be grateful to you (thus knowing im unfortunately stroking your ego and providing you more fuel!!!). This knowledge will hopefully ensure i am never sucked back into my ex’s venomous web or that anybody i know is ever abused at the hands of your kind ever again!!!

    As i have seen others comment…. i too stand up for anybody else i can see being abused….man, woman, child, even yes, animal!!! How i was so blind to the abuse i myself was subjected too is crazy!!! However in saying that…. i am also all to aware now of your cunning deceitful ways and how manipulative you really are now!!!

    She has responded exactly how you have described that she would when told exactly what i think she is… a narc…. she couldnt handle it!!! And her response was so ridiculously predictable when she tried to turn the tables with a “im not playing your childish baiting game….” reply that i f@#king killed myself laughing!!! Im assuming she cannot handle the fact that she is being called out for what she really is as…. hang on…. she is oh so perferct after all…. gods gift to us inferior mortals correct???!! Lmfao!!!

    Im happy to “stroke your ego” if thats what it takes to prove i am genuinelly greatful for having my eyes opened finally!!! No more will i ever siffer at her hands so long as i just keep reading!!! Keep prepairing myself for all the things she has yet to throw my way!!!

    P.s…. to Leilani…. still making my way thru “Narcissist Seduction” and im just getting more and more evidence to the fact that my suspicions are absolutely correct as its almost the female narc in my life to the word…. thats how spot on accurate it is!!! I am blown away as well as already predicting where this going from my own experiences lol!!!

    1. Leilani says:

      Much love CJ, Cheers to your benefits.

    2. Miss_stress says:

      I am sorry you have so long suffered at the manipulations and ploys of a narcisisist. I hope that through this blog and other avenues of research and from the strength and knowledge to move forward and heal.
      The illumination occurs, when we realize the falseness of the relationships, that this is who and what they really are, once the mask has slipped or fallen away completely to reveal their true personas.
      This is how they view and treat others to feed their own egos and mindsets, through the fuel of our love, devotion,, trust. Loyalty and admiration . Their preservation is through destruction, emotional or otherwise, of others.
      Being aware of what they are, when they remain unaware or unwilling to even look at themselves for what they are. Makes it near impossible to Maintain relationships to any healthy measure. Believe me, I never abandonment them Persay, I took care of my mother until her death and forced myself to adjust the relationship around how she was, in a way that was manageable for my own well being. As well. I took into consideration my father as well I this scenario. My sister, could not do so, so she opted out.
      With my last N, I tried to discuss with him my findings and show him that I can accept him and love him, but he was unwilling to reveal himself, even though his mask had slipped so many times, I feel I was even putting it back on for him many a time. He needs to be adored for that which he isn’t, for someone he pretends to be. It saddens me, but that is his choice for his life.
      I believe if we all work other me share stories, offer advice, be open to Information, we can make huge strides and changes to healing…for other selves. Healing from our pasts and our present.
      Keeping asking question CJ, so you keep receiving answers.

      1. cjhawkes03 says:

        Thank you Miss_Stress!!! I agree 100% with what you have said about if we can work together, share stories and information… remain constantly aware and vigilant to these destructive behaviours once that mask has slipped and their true selves are revealed… the better chance that all of us together will hopefully heal from our trauma and scars created by those who hands we suffered at!!!

        Thank you again Miss_stress and i will do as you havesaid… keep asking questions!!!

        1. Miss_stress says:

          Yes, I am a die hard questioner. But, it avails me of answers and it will do the same for you. Absorbing as much information as possible will only serve to help, not hinder your progression of healing.
          I am currently trying seek understanding for my own childhood trauma, not placing blame, but trying to cope and relate differently. To be totally self honest, when I read that apparently HG said that about me (although I now realise he did not), it hurt, not because I was insulted to be called a narc, because he had answered my queries about such things in the past( based in my own mothers behaviours) and assured me that I am no way close to being such. So to me, it triggered something within me that screamed…worthless. That is not Hgs fault, nor is yours CJ. It is soley my own issue and how I view myself. I was not angry Persay, maybe more ashamed. I am self aware in many ways of my foibles, how I react and overact. HG is aware as well. I am sure he saw my response as an overreaction, and that would be a correct determination. If shamed I scurry back to those childhood defence mechanisms. It harkens back to dialogue blood and thunder and I had the other day. Regarding criticism. It effects me mostly if perceived as disrepect, which then correlates to feeling shame, which then either manifests as defense or retreat. Ie, defending myself or removing myself due to embarrassment. I tend to defend more often then not. I admit, I should not have reacted as such on blog, I appreciate that Hg posted it and then replied accordingly. I issued an apology because I was wrong and it needed to be righted. I wrote this ma s an insight to my own psyche, akin to an amusement oark ride. Think of the Tubes song, She’s a Beauty. If I can do anyhting. k can admit fault when I am wrong, my pride will never deter me to do so.

          1. cjhawkes03 says:

            Its IS THIS thread that has the big post i put to Blood and Thunder about the joy to ruin special occassions e.g. xmas, and other things. Im still awaiting a reply from Blood and Thunder as to her thoughts and i most certainly welcome your or anyone elses too if they wish to weigh in… particularly with any tips on how to BEST arm myself over the next however long she wishes to attempt to play her game!!!

            The post is much further up the page and starts out like this: “These examples are spot on to the kind of manipulative ways she displayed!!! (Btwโ€ฆ. just so your awareโ€ฆ.” Etc etc.

            Cheers Miss_Stress!!! (If you reply anddont hear back from me straight away…. its because im in Australia and im about to retire my phone for the evening!!! Im hazarding a guess as to your whereabouts being in England sorta area somewhere??? You too HG??? Just curious lol).

            Cheers ๐Ÿ˜‰

          2. HG Tudor says:

            . I am in the UK. It’s anybody’s guess where she is.

          3. Miss_stress says:

            Okay CJ. I will take a look, I am having WordPress issues again today. I don’t disclose my country location, For personal security N and lieutenants, why I also stopped using my real name. Obviously as moderator of blog, HG is aware of all our locations. But, he also respects readers not to divulge such information that could put someone at risk. I will say. I have spent a great deal of time in the Uk, but currently do not live there. I am excited about an upcoming trip to Australia in 2017.

          4. Leilani says:

            HG, does this mean you will not call “TMZ”, I forgot you do know everyone’s locations ha.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            The hotline to TMZ has been iced. Promise.

          6. Miss_stress says:

            You are safe, I am sure Leilani ๐Ÿ˜Š

          7. Leilani says:

            You get me you’re the only one HG

          8. Leilani says:

            Thank you Miss S. I knew I can count on you.

  8. Miss_stress says:

    HG! In the two fingers raised to your mum, would they be in the middle of each hand ๐Ÿ˜ two is always better then one.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No. I am English so I don’t tend to flip the bird, I opt for the V sign and I do not mean victory or peace.

      1. Miss_stress says:

        Ha ha, omg I laughed loudly there… My apologies, of course. How Medievel ๐Ÿ˜

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. YES! Brilliant, HG!

        Then perhaps you could follow it up by referring to something as “quite” good since I know the British view the word “quite” as a slight.

        “The meal was quite good” – for the Brits it means “It was good, but could have been better.” It’s not a substitute for “very” like it is over here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are quite correct.

          We may also use it in the sense of “it was quite the performance” which means it really was something of a performance, but yes, applying quite as you have suggested is a useful back-handed compliment.

          1. In the case of your response, I would it take it to mean, “You’re very correct B&T” but it could also mean, “You’re correct but not entirely.”

            Huge potential for mind gaming, that little word!

    2. nikitalondon says:

      I suppose its show the middle finger ๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ˜‚

      1. Miss_stress says:

        We do middle finger here too, Nikita, I only know the v for peace. I guess every country has their own rude gesture of defiance.

        1. nikitalondon says:

          I think that one is everywhere. We have it in latin america also

    3. Ah okay, so it has double meaning then depending upon the circumstance it is applied to!

      I like it. It`s brilliant.

      1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Miss_stress says:

        I use quite often preceding adjectives, but for me it is soley my pattern of speech. It implies no
        Condescion when I utilize it. Rather, it is used as an extended emphasis to show appreciation. Nothing derogatory implied, only relaying to Happiness, pleasure or acknowledgement. Examples..What you said was quite lovely, thank you. That piece of music, made me feel quite wonderful.

        1. Yes, absolutely, I tend to use the word in much the same context as you do, Miss.

          It`s interesting how some words mean different things to different groups, cultures, etc.

          1. Miss_stress says:

            Yes, that is how words can get us I trouble at times too.

  9. I react much the same way when criticized, though it often depends on who is doling out the criticism.

    I often can`t believe someone would have the gall to criticize me, but I am sometimes able to rationalize that it is because they are beneath me that they don’t know any better. Doesn`t make the criticism any less damaging or my reaction to it any less intense, but it at least provides me with some respite.

    I know the feelings of fury and rage well.

    What absolutely drives me mad is when people say, “It’s constructive criticism, no need to get so upset.” Total oxymoron.

    1. Miss_stress says:

      Criticism does not anger me, I can use it to help me, so I can push away the negative aspect of it, especially when people are trying to be hurtful by using it and take what I deem positive from it. If there is nothing positive then they are called on their true intention. Often based in childhood experiences, criticism will more then likely make me denigrate myself more with self doubt and worry. I do not turn it outwardly. No one can criticize me beyond what I do to myself.
      It is being lied to, disrespected and ignored that creates anxiety to anger in me. Btw, he knew this and utilized it well.
      Constructive criticism is the catch phrase to remove their culpability of causing intentional harm. Condescension is another vile tool.

      1. I respect that you can use it to help you, Miss_stress, but I simply cannot.

        I can understand how being lied to, ignored and disrespected could make you feel angry. I don`t like when people disrespect me either.

        1. Miss_stress says:

          I can use that way, More so when I know I am In the wrong, I can determine if the other person is simply being spiteful or condescending to me.if so. Then sarcasm will most likely be used to shut them down.
          He thought my questions were criticisms of him, they were not. They are simply a by product of me, not a slight against him. I nevr could bring to light that realization.

        2. Miss_stress says:

          Is it anything you perceive as a criticism? Can you separate when you know that is their personality with everyone….not just you? Or is a any comment that inflicts a wound? Does the content not matter, ie how your hair looks, to where you eat lunch, to your choice in boyfriends, to how you pronounce or spell words, to job performance….it is those back handed compliments/ insults I balk at.
          I wonder maybe I am so conditioned to criticism that it doesn’t effect me I the same manner?

          1. There are certain things that will irk me a lot more than others (that I will not outline here because this is not information that readers need to be privy to).

            But in general, I dislike when someone criticizes me for any reason. When I have to, I react the way “normal” people are supposed to react, but I keep a mental tally and I will revisit the offence later to exact revenge.

            I am the opposite of you, Miss_stress – I am not used to criticism. I very rarely received it growing up and very rarely receive it now. So when it does happen, it feels as though someone has sucker punched me right in the stomach and knocked the wind out of me and/or burned my tender skin with a hot poker (depending on the type of criticism).

            Does this give you a bit of insight. I’m not here to say whether how I was raised, etc was right or wrong (of course I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it at all), but its my reality and it’s partly responsible for my being the way I am now.

          2. Miss_stress says:

            Thank you BloodandThunder for reply. Yes, if criticism is a foreign behaviour to you then receiving would have incredible impact. I do understand. I am pleased that criticism was not part of your childhood experience. I am sure your self esteem is much healthier for that.
            I appreciate your candor and honesty.

      2. My pleasure, Miss_stress. I appreciate your entering into an intelligent dialogue with me without attempting to malign or shame me simply because our realities are different.

        There`s a lot we can learn from one another even if we don`t agree with one another.

        I thank you for being so open-minded and willing to discuss with me!

        1. Miss_stress says:

          Yes, I feel the same way. I do believe we can learn from One another and I always do my best to keep an open mind. I recognize aspects of others personalities that are similar and different from mine, I never assume my way is the best or right way. I do , however accept that I can find a better way for myself by listening and being open to change. The way I think often is not in accordance to the way I act, what I have observed within a short time span with you that It appears the way you think is aligned with how you act. I like that. It for me has a sense of freedom, that perhaps I repress. I often get lost in thoughts and as I stated and by many of my posts, I question much.
          I enjoy your comments and intelligence and humour.

    2. cjhawkes03 says:

      Hi Blood and Thunder and Miss_stress… from what i can gather from what ive read and also HG…. you are both writing from the perspective of the female narc (weather being open to the behaviours on yourself or being on the recieving end of a female narcs abuse)…. would that possible be correct??! Ifso… i have some info i most certainly think i could gain knowledge from your insight in regards to?!!!

      I like what you have written miss_stress in response to this also…. that no one can criticize you more than what you criticize yourself!!! I find this very true myself!!! However in saying this…. the female narc that im in the stages of initiating “no contact” with, she had a most cunning and manipulative way of planting the seeds of doubt etc that lead to such extense and severe self criticizim, doubt, self judement etc to the point of annihilating any self-esteemand demolishing and self-worth i did have!!! I realise it will take time… lots of time and effort on my part to pick up the pieces of said shattered esteem, worth and confidence!!! She has had me doing this dance with her on and off for over 15years and i only 29 now however as HG has said… the key to understanding is in knowledge thus the reason i am here to begin with lol!!!
      I believe the more i understand and become aware… the power i hopefully take away from vile woman and her ability to hoover me back!!!

      Cheers guys!!

      1. Hi cj – you`re perceptive! Although, I am not a Narc.

        I understand those tactics well, but I don`t feel right offering advice or insight on the topic since this is HG`s blog and it`s not my place.

        I defer to him in this area, unless he feels I have input that could be valuable to share with you and deems it appropriate.

        1. cjhawkes03 says:

          Hi Blood and Thunder,

          It was actually HG himself who suggested i speak to you through the blog….

          “You might also want to solicit the views and opinion through the blog (after all we can all learn more from seeing the interaction) from Blood and Thunder and NotQuiteNarc both of whom are not quite our kind but sail close enough. I am sure you will gain some interesting observations from them.”

          HG’s words himself ina response to a question i asked i asked him lol. I am fairly sure also that i saw you too had a blog and i have sent through a request to you to follow you also (NOT IN ANYWAY To take away from true N himself with his words of wisdom…. why i would not dare!!! Lol. Im just personally a believe in knowledge being power and am open to learning as much as possible from anyone who has anything valueable to share ๐Ÿ˜ƒ).

          Cheers for your response still Blood and Thunder!

      2. Hi CJ, I did not see HGs response and wanted to make sure I had his blessing before offering up much more insight.

        I am not sure what your female did or how she did it, but I can tell you that I can be very cunning and manipulative in planting the seeds of self-doubt too.

        Here’s an example, though it would translate better if you were in front of me, looking into my eyes and close to me while I was doing it:
        You: I was thinking about doing xx.

        Me: Really. Well how are you going to do that.

        You: (offer me an explanation of how you are going to do it)

        Me: Hm. That could be interesting.

        You: (pleased that I agree with your approach, opinion, etc)

        A little while later:

        Me: I was thinking, do you really think the way you want to do xx is really the best way? I mean, do you really think it`s going to work or do you think there might be another way….a better way?

        You: Well, no, I think my way will be fine. And you said it was good. Why? What are you thinking? You think it won`t work? Do you have another idea?

        Me: I`m just trying to help. I want you to succeed and I think you should investigate all options.

        This is a very simple example and again, works best if you`re with me and can hear the inflection in my voice, see my facial expressions, etc.

        Of course, I won`t give you any other options and in all likelihood, there aren`t any other options. Your way might very well be the best way, but now, because of what I`ve said and how I said it, you`re second-guessing yourself. You were on a high when I agreed with you earlier and said your idea was a good one. Now, you`re feeling a bit anxious and uncertain because you`re wondering what the other options are and will want to make sure you make the right choice so you can gain my approval once again.

        Depending on what the scenario is, you will become more and more anxious and obsessed with finding the better way I suggested, even though there might not be a better way. The whole thing will become so stressful you`ll either decide to abandon the idea all together because clearly, you are not intelligent/capable/good enough to figure it out or you`ll do it but it won`t turn out as well as it might have had I just left you alone in the first place.

        I will probably come along and say something like, “Oh good job, but it would have been so much better if you’d done this….” which will make you feel annoyed for not thinking of that yourself and annoyed that I didn’t say something earlier. It will make you feel like all your effort was for nothing so what started out as something great/fun/interesting is now overshadowed by your annoyance, frustration and second guessing.

        I also do the same thing with looks/personality traits etc. in order to make you feel inferior to someone else.

        Me: It`s been a while since I`ve seen John. My god, he looks good!

        You: Yeah, he’s really lost some weight.

        Me: Not just lost weight!!!!! He’s totally ripped! I asked him to lift his shirt for me when we were outside on the patio. He has washboard abs now! I could wash your clothes on his abs! He really looks phenomenal (this will be followed up with a slightly glazed-over expression on my face which will make you wonder if I am thinking a little too hard about John’s abs or his….well you get the picture!)

        You: (jealous and annoyed now) Well, so what, he’s got abs. He’s not a very nice guy. I find him shallow and not very intelligent (you will remember that once I told you I value intelligence, sense of humour and kindness above looks)

        Me: (I will remember that I once told you that as well) Who cares if he’s nice or smart? With abs like that, I can certainly forgive his lack of kindness and intelligence.

        You will feel less than because I’ve made you aware of just how attractive I find John (I may not even really find him all that attractive). You will feel insecure because you will recall that John made comments to you in passing about me and how lucky you are to have me. He may have also made some rather crass remarks “you know, just between guys” and this will make you worried that he will try something with me. And I won’t say no. You will go to the bathroom and look at your own abs and wonder if you should start hitting the gym. It’s been a while since I told you how hot I find you…..

        These are all very subtle, but they get the job done if the intent is to slowly manipulate your self-esteem into eroding and make you second-guess yourself and your relationship with me or others.

        Does this help, CJ?

        1. cjhawkes03 says:

          These examples are spot on to the kind of manipulative ways she displayed!!! (Btw…. just so your aware…. we were in a lesbian relationship…. i am female also lol…. but she is “bisexual” apparently and she would do EXACTLY that kind of thing you explained to me!!!). We would get in a conversation about girls and how they look etc and she would make the sort of comments like “i love when my girls are all fit and toned and sculpted perfectly….” etc, knowing damn well that im not built exactly like that… she would even go as far as the last time she made this remark, to follow it up with a very deaming… “oh go ahead… get all sooky la la on me coz you dont like hearing what i said lmfao…”. She knows what she is doing to me… of that im sure!!!

          I got told by this other woman iet who had a N ex that apparently they love to spoil holidays in particuar… thats like extra fun to the N/kin of the N??! Examples…. Xmas last year… she convinced to drive down south (approx a 15-18hour drive away!!!) At the start of December to stay with her and the kids… plus to her move away from the father of 2 of the kids. Once i got down there… i was regularly ditchedand left to stay at her mothers while she would end up back at the ex’s with the kids claiming he was wanting to spend time with them and she was only trying to do the right thing for the kids…. however… the best part was xmas day/night!! So…xmas rocks around, and she ends up spending the day at her mums with her mum and the ex (1st xmas apart from him thus 1st xmas kids would have potentially been away from him….couldnt possibly let that happen!!!), while i spend the day alone at her house. I was cool with that… would just spend dayripped watching movies or whatever!!! But…. i get a text that morning asking me to pack up and get out and drop the house keys to her mums in the letterbox as he wants to go back and stay at the house for a few days to spend time with the kids (and she refused to let me and him stay in the same place… im assuming this is because 1)… she needs to control the situation and god forbid there be a chance for me and him to uncover her true nature if together!!! And 2) i know its also because… whatever she had said to him about me in the past… it resulted in him not being able to stand from day 1 and being ridiculously jelious of me all without giving me a chance!!!). Now… she KNEW i had no where else to go and no money to stay anywhere… i ended up spending my xmas day in my car parked at a random service station about a half hour from her place… which is alsowhere i ended up sleeping that night!!! (Again… all of which she knew but did nothing about… she went the abandonment route!!!).

          So long story short… when we did inevitably finally get back in touch a couple of months later… she somehow managed to also convince me that ALL of what happened down there, her abandonment of me, etc, was all MY fault!!!

          Then we get to my birthday this year… so she waswell aware that i usually LOVE my birthday however this year… i really was not looking forward to it given my current situation. I was really surprisedwhen i ended up having a fantastic day with friends here that i usualky work with etc. I rang her that night to tell her all about it and she could hear how happy i actually was etc… which i when she launched into a whole blurb about how shitty she felt and how depressed she is etc… to the extreme of saying that she want to cut herself etc!!! Not she has not self harmed in YEARS that i am aware of (including no visable scars onher body etc… but she was cluing onto the fact that i was starting to recognise her for what she is… i think anyways… considering the following…), i said to her that if she did end up doing it… that i wanted to know. So… asi said… it my birthday… she chose that day out of all 365 in the year to not only follow thru but to send me a photo as proof thus forcing me to feel like shit and end my day feeling that way and that big the memory i now associate with my bday this year!!! Mind you… did she start the day “depressed”… when i was still feeling down about my Bday and worried how bad the day would be?? NO!!!! She only got in that state once she heard how great my day had been!!!

          So yea… special occasions have seemed like the days she gets the most kick of ruining!!!

          Im trying to now go no contact (as this cycle with her has been on and for over 15years since we met at age 13!!!). Since going NC… she has informed she is moving back to Brisbane in the next couple of weeks and despite me making it clear that i do not want to see her… she is determined on turning up on my door step to see me face to face!!! Nowmy guess is thatshe wants to do things face to face as it gives her the best chance possible to lure me back in to her cycle of bbeating me down to nothing and destroying my self-esteem, self worth, etc etc!! Im sure she will go as far as using her own kids against me in the sense of bringing them to the door with her as i dont have the heart to shut the door in an innocent childs face therefore forcing me to stand there face to face with her!!!
          Any ideas what to expect when she gets back here in the next week??! She was under the impression that moving back to Brisbane would mean things between her and I would instantly get better…. i dont think so!!! Im not doing this anymore!!! Ive done over 15years on and off… subjected to the emotional and psychological abuse she has thrown at me and FINALLY… my eyes are open to her true nature!!!! My psych suggested i get a DVO agaisnt her to force her to stay away and to not contact me however after hearing what HG had to say about that… it confirmed what i already thought… that 1) that will just provoke her, 2) that come the actual court date, she would be so cunning and manipulative as to wrap that whole room around her little finger in the end after a master performance on her part and not only walk out successful at stomping on my DVO…. but even possibly being granted one herself against me!!!! So ive decided that probably isnt the best way to go after all…. therefore yes… i cannot technically stop her contacting me or showing up once she gets here!!! I do want to believe she has made 1 error however… she sent me a text requesting a profession contract for reasonable repayments to pay me back (“even if you wish to refuse… i dont give a f@#k… ill still pay you back!!”). So i was only to happy to oblige and am trying to organise the legally binding contract as per her request…. however, now that she has had time to think over the stupidity of that message… i think she is regretting it as she has no idea of the total figure ive come up with… and that figure is actually me being kind and only spending luterally 5mins searching through my banking history!!! So i think i could almost double that if i put i some real effort in searching through receipts of online purchases for clothes for the kids for example!!! She has no idea that me being kind here… ive come up with $3,500 worth of repayments for her to make!!!! So yes… given time to reflect on her statement… i think she wishes she never said it and realised how stupid of her it was (all though… i am prepaired for her to also paint the picture of how horrible i apparently am once she does recieve the paperwork and see the figure!!! I dont care tho!!! As long as i dont personally have to see or speak to her… thats fine… say what she wants!!! She doesnt have the same circle of friends here as i do anyway!!!

          But yes… i just want to be as prepaired as i possibly can for any potential onslaught that comes my way in the next week or so upon her arrival here in Brissy and be prepared to do what it takes to maintain NO CONTACT with her!!!

          Any thoughts you have would most certainly be welcomed!!! Thank you for what you have already told me too!!!

      3. I also wanted to add that the way I behave is entirely dependent on how empathetic and sensitive the person is.

        I much prefer to hang out with like-minded people, though real life forces me to interact with a myriad of personality types, so masks are integral.

        With like-minded people, I don`t need to pretend. They understand my needs and I understand their needs. There are no unrealistic expectations or illusions. I provide what they need, they provide what I need, and usually, we get along swimmingly.

        I don`t feel the need to play games with those who are similar to me. I also understand there`s no point because they know all the tricks and games anyway. It makes for a much more authentic, pure and honest relationship, to be brutally honest.

        Also CJ, I love your avatar, but I have to say, I much prefer Heath Ledger`s Joker. I`d take him over boring old Batman any day (Batman isn`t really a good guy anyway and it`d be nice if he`d stop pretending.)

        1. cjhawkes03 says:

          Ahh fair enough. I can understand that to a degree i suppose… the fact that it would make for less games and thus, more authenticity!!!

          And cheers… i too, am a fan of Heath Ledger’s Joker.. however its just that tjis particular picture has appealed to me over the past few weeks in regards to how im feeling…. i think it kinda sums up the insanity i feel quite well!!! Lmfao ๐Ÿ˜‰

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I found his performance to be too OTTbut then I am a huge Christian Bale fan. I agree with what B&T said about Batman though.

      4. Miss_stress says:

        I am sorry, CJ. That HG has sorrifully misinformed you and thusly maligned me, In this manner. For him to say I am a narcisisist when clearly I have expressed my concerns, hurt and issue at being abused by several narcissists in my life through relationships. The last one only recently ending. To me that undermines all I have gone through and adds to the abuse. I came I this b,OMG to seek refuge and understanding and to learn why he did what he did through Hg and others who suffered similar experiences.
        As well, I was “raised” by a narcissistic mother. But I chose as child thorough his modelling to become like my father, loving, compassionate, helpful, taking care of others needs In life and work. As a result, also co dependent. I can clearly see the mindset of the narcisisist at play and why. But I cannot think like them, nor would I ever behave as they do, Regarding the manipulation and harm of others. I do not hate or judge them either.
        Regardless of HGs misinformation and slight to me. I would be more then happy to respond to any questions you have, if it can provide you understanding. Feel free to ask me anything, I am learning as well, so we might as well stumble through this together, each and everyone else.
        Blood and thunder, are you a narcisisist, or did Hg get that wrong for yiu as well. I cannot even fathom how he could Imply such about me, if he has read any of my posts and messages to him.
        HG perhaps you can answer, why you said such to CJ, regarding myself ?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Very easily because I did not do so. Here is my message to Courtz (who is now cjhawkes03) from 5th July at 6-23 pm

          Hello Courtz,

          1. Female narcissists. Well my mother is one but I am not putting you in touch with her for obvious reasons. It is fair to state that for the most part he and she are entirely interchangeable when it comes to our kind. There will be some variations on a theme though when looked at from a female perspective. I do know two other female narcissists. One does not know what she is and therefore any interaction would be fruitless. The second has an awareness but it would compromise my own position if I was to put you in touch. If you want more from the female perspective, I would recommend that you invite Cara to comment (her mother is a narcissist) and she has experienced the full effect of what that entails. You might also want to solicit the views and opinion through the blog (after all we can all learn more from seeing the interaction) from Blood and Thunder and NotQuiteNarc both of whom are not quite our kind but sail close enough. I am sure you will gain some interesting observations from them.

          As you can clearly see I made reference to Blood and Thunder and NotQuiteNarc being not quite our kind but they sail close enough.

          They were not described as narcissists. You were not even mentioned.

          Here is CJ/Courtz message of 6th July at 6-23 pm written following my message above.

          Hi Blood and Thunder and Miss_stressโ€ฆ from what i can gather from what ive read and also HGโ€ฆ. you are both writing from the perspective of the female narc (weather being open to the behaviours on yourself or being on the recieving end of a female narcs abuse)โ€ฆ. would that possible be correct??! Ifsoโ€ฆ i have some info i most certainly think i could gain knowledge from your insight in regards to?!!!

          It is CJ who included you in the message (presumably in error) and of perceiving that you are writing from the perspective of the female narc.

          I await your apology.

        2. cjhawkes03 says:

          No…. MY mistake Miss_stress… he informed me that it wasactually blood and thunder that was closely aligned to his kin and therefore a good source or info from the female perspective!!! I saw your posts and asked you (and he may have also suggested you…. not 100% sure…)… but based on your expeirence with growing up with a N mum and yes… ur multiple different relationships with other N’s!!! Im so sorry that i led you to feel this way as it was my mistake… i should have clarified better in my first msg!!! (Yes… i can own my faults and mistakes!!! Lol!!! ๐Ÿ˜‰).

          So yes… my most scincerest appoligies Miss_stress!!! And yes… my deepest of gratitude to your willingness to answer any of my questions!!! Greatly appreciated…. truly!!!! (And in saying that… please do feel free to read my long reply to blood and thunder about what has happened on xmas last year and my birthday this year… and in regards to her moving back to Brisbane…. i would welcome ANY insight or input from you also!!!!! Thanks again!!!)

          1. Miss_stress says:

            Yes, CJ , owning ones fault is some thing to be tremendously proud of. You are not at fault here. I was one who reacted. Hence , my apology. Everything is good now. All settled.
            I didn’t see your post regarding Xmas Cj, has it been moderated yet? I will read it when it posted. Is it still in this article thread?
            I will let you know my thoughts I the matter once read.
            You are very welcome. I apologize to you as well, if my reply upset you. You did nothing wrong, remember that.

          2. cjhawkes03 says:

            Cheers Miss_Stress!! Not 100% sure if my post is on this thread… i do know that it was in response to a post Blood and Thunder wrote to me about how she may behave. Also not to sure if has been moderated and allowed thru for post… that would be up to illustrious “leader” would it not??! Lmfao ๐Ÿ˜‰. I will have a look thru tho and see if i can see it or not… otherwise i shall attempt to re-word in manner fitting to HG’s blog and post again ๐Ÿ˜Š

      5. Miss_stress says:

        As an aside CJ, you have been conditioned and indocrinated in addiction bonding to this N over an extended Period of time. They have carefully determined how to make you feel this doubt and decimination self worth. They figure out what makes us tick so to speak and then they light the fuse and watch us burn, if lucky they might see some fireworks.
        Because we love them, trust them, seek their advisement , we allow their false intentions to seep deeply within our core. Which then allows us to believe they may be correct about the things we already feel, such as hesitation or doubt in, questioning our own judgement, knowing our mind.
        They claim repeatedly to have our best interests and happiness at heart, and through the trust and love we feel, we believe them. They want us to fail, remain beneath them, question who we are, our worth and value. they chip away at self esteem lie they are crying a magnificent ice sculpture for display. Then once finished stand back admire the work/ damage they have created and proceed to watch us melt.
        Knowing what you are dealing with is the first line of defence. Through Hgs book and other outlets and this blog and readers, you can arm yourself to protect yourself and thusly, if you are able, move on and past this abuse.

        1. cjhawkes03 says:

          Thank you again Miss_stress for more insight!!! The more i do read and the more knowledge i obtain… the more secure i actually do begin to feel about the idea that i might just be able to do as you said… finally move on and move past this abuse!!! (Just gotta get through this next hurdle of her arriving back in my home town to live in the next week!!! Once she hopefully see’s i wont cave to her anymore and she has lost her power over me… fingers crossed she will back away for good!!!!).

          Your insights are truly appriciated!!!

      6. Hi CJ. You certainly do have quite the predicament here, especially since she`s been able to lure you back in before.

        Like it or not, you`re going to have to refrain from seeing her face to face if you know she`s going to use those tactics against you and if those tactics have worked in the past.

        I know when face-to-face very few have been able to resist me. That is even true of phone conversations, emails and texts. Of the people that have been in and out of my life, it`s typically me who simply gets bored and moves on to someone else.

        Using the kids as pawns is perfect, especially if you`re close to them.
        Know this has nothing to do with the kids – this has to do with you and her, so you need to try to keep your feelings for them out of this. Not wanting to close the door in the faces of innocent children? You`ll have to if she shows up with them and you`re wanting to maintain no contact.

        You are most certainly going to ignite her fury and she`s going to do everything she can to get to you. Tactics could range from her professing her undying love for you to threatening you. Count on a smear campaign (or several) about how terrible you are being to her, with maybe a few false allegations of how you treated her in the past thrown in for good measure. She will cry on the shoulders of anyone who will listen to her and if she`s any good at this, she`ll have them convinced it`s all your fault, she`s the saint and you`re the sinner, and she`ll lay any claims you make/have made about her to waste.

        As HG said before, it will never really be over with her if she`s a Narc. In my case, it`s never really over because I do revisit old flames, but my boredom and need for constant stimulation force me to move on to something new and exciting.

        I agree that the DVO would not be a great idea. If this were me, it would infuriate me beyond the point of sanity and you best believe I`d spend every waking minute conniving ways to get back at you, and in my case, I`d be successful. This could compel her to want to destroy you and that`s not a position you want to find yourself in, especially since the no contact situation is already going to fan the flames burning inside her.

        I hate to say this, but your success with this no contact situation is going to depend on you and your strength and ability to stick to your guns. If you falter or waiver or give her an in, you`re finished. You have to set aside any feelings you may have for her still and ESPECIALLY ALL THE FEELINGS YOU HAVE FOR THE CHILDREN!!!!

        I can`t stress that enough. She`s going to use them against you and yes, she`s going to say horrible things to those kids about you, but that can`t matter to you right now. Bottom line – this is about protecting yourself.

        You`ve a long, tough battle ahead of you, CJ. May the force be with you. ๐Ÿ™‚

        1. cjhawkes03 says:

          Thank you Blood and Thunder for your thoughts on this!!! Truly insightful and greatly appriciated!!!

          And lingering feelings i had for her are dead…. of that im certain!!! However now that im aware of this with the kids… i will do just that… set aside any feelings i have for them and just close the damn door in her face!!! Im not going down this horrid road with her anymore!!! Im so beyond done!!!
          I mean hey…. as you said… at the end of the day… this is about my own protection!!! Self preservation and all that. I CANT keep being subjected to what she does to me in regards to stopping on and destroying ever shread of my self esteem and self worth and all those other things that come with that (…. nor can i keep being subjected to financial abuse too…. the amounts she has swindled out of me…. F@#K ME!!! RIDICULOUS!!!!). I will not put myself in this situation anymore.

          So thats it then… ill build up my walls and defenses and ill just maintain No Contact like a bloody pro!!! Lol.

          Its interesting that you say she is likelyto throw out her professions of undying love as i thought this m8ght be case and the reason she is so desperate to see me face to face…. to put on the most award winning performance of her life when it comes to professing how sorry she is and how its me… its always been me and always will be me… blah blah and more blah!!!! She has known that for months now, since we re-established contact after the xmas fiasco, that all ive wanted the whole time is for her the 1) “own her own behaviour” and admit that she was the catalyst for driving me in a 2 week “holiday” at the psych unit and 2) to admit that she loves me as much as i DID love her (*note the use of pretense lmfao*). So she already knows that is what i was wanting to hear so i had a feeling those would be the first things she would throw at me (along with using her kids). So thats good to see you have written that as it confirms that she is at least likely considering that approach lol!!! Therefore i now too can be completely aware of what a crock of sh#t it is when she trys to pour those words out of her deceitful, cunning, manipulative mouth!!! However i dont intend for it to get even far enough for this to occur!!!

          Ill be doing as basically advised and now also reinforced in my head (as i had a feeling this would be the case!!!), and i soon as i open the door to her inevitable turn up on my door step… as soon as i see who it is… ill simply close and lock the door straight away!!! In turn, effectively silencing her as it wont even allow her the chance to speak and try lure me back with lies and BS!!!

          Thanks again Blood and Thunder… your insight has been very valuable to me in preparing my little arsenal for the fun and games yet to come my way!!!

          Cheers mate

      7. Miss_stress says:

        Regarding your post concerning the N In Your life. I cannot reply to that directly.
        I find so few comments are actually able to be replied to, why is that HG?
        Well, her show of trying to make you emotional, is just that, an ego boost ( building up of her) and a self esteem reducer (tearing down) of you. She does because she knows how you will react, she knows it will be met with emotion. Thusly, fuel for her, it is all about her and her needs. She will use whatever means it takes to get it and then blame you for being so sensitive or easily hurt or can’t take a joke….

        My mum was brilliant at the insolent jabs and backhanded compliments, oddly no one but me could see through them. They are just plain catty. I prefer someone to say what they actually mean. Your gf for example,…you haven’t told me how gorgeous I am N three hours CJ, I feel wounded and unwanted,,,so I will now make some nasty remarks to you and make you feel just as unworthy. Maybe she did because you were getting more attention then her, maybe because she wanted you to feel jealous and insecure..but mostly, because she can. It is all about power and who owns it.

        Xmas day, control again. Her need for it, to control you, him, the children and the day. Well she couldn’t have the two of you consorting and comparing stories, ie lies she told you both. And for that matter, why couldn’t her children spend the day with their dad, why did she have to as well. Control again. To make you suffer. She is vindactive and spiteful. Those poor children.
        You are aware now. None of it was your fault. Right? Blame shifter extraordinaire. She had an aged day the timing of your visit conflicted with it, so she needed to remove you, knowing you love her, she used that emotion against you, to know you would be compliant and quiet. As you wouldn’t want to spoil the children’s Xmas.
        Your birthday…timed manipulation again. You were on a high emotionally, she couldn’t have that, she needed to bring you down to a manageable subservient level. So what better way to feign despair and self harm. I do not think based On what you write she ever intended to self harm that night. It was a despatate ploy to pity, to ensure Your day was ruined and to relish attention on her. She knew you would be attentive and devote time to her.
        You have been emotionally bonded to her since childhood, since thirteen years old. It seems to me she has claimed ownership over you. There is no love here. On my her need to control and abuse you through the love and affection and addiction you have to her.
        Seeing her will be a mistake. She will use the children in her mission, they are laws to be worked with. Regarding the DVO, I am of another mind. Someone who shows up at your door, calls you repeatedly when you have told them not to is, harassment. I would see what she attempts first. Then tell her that she is not to show up at your home unannounced or leave repeated messages in your answering machine or texts or emails etc. Explain to her ( if you must have verbal contact)and appeal to her ego, that you wish to have a peaceful relationship based On the years together and that if She persists with such behaviour that makes it impossible for you both. That you ask her to stay away from your home and give you time to choose when you see or make contact with her. Even if occassinally , not in physical proximity contact is best for you to keep her from Harassing you.
        I put a restraining order and had my malignant N husband after I had arrested for assault and had him deported. I a,so had a trader put in my phone to record and provide proof of his harassment. I advocate protecting yourself always. Do not allow someone’s owner okay to out your self at risk. If you can at all reason with who, let her know that out of respect of oast relationship you do not wish to take such measures. But, will for your own safety. That if she can abide by your wishes you nevr will have to, she is banking in you doing nothing to protect yourself.
        Ensure before she arrives in your town, family and friends are aware of the situation and you have someone you can contact. Do not inform her that any one is aware of anyhting, do not allow her to shame you into keeping quiet either. She is also banking on that. She do not inform her of what you say or do to others.
        She is an oppressor. She feels entitled to you and your attention and will show up and enforce that sense of entitlement. If you knew when she would be at your home, to have someone else there as well would benefit.
        I have been stalked by numerous men. Had to take out restraining orders, move house quickly , change phone numbers, have been harassed at work, had others harass me for them. Be aware some people are highly retaliatory, they count on us not doing anyhting but cowering and taking it. Plan course of action now, with friends family and authorities if necessary, I suggest you do what make you feel safest and most comfortable. That is all you can do. What is right for you. I do not knwo to what extremes she may go to, In terms of escalation to violence. If she has a key to your home, make sure locks are changed ASAP. Make sure doors and windows are secured regardless. Be proactive. If she is only verbal in her abuse, then plan out how you can counter some of her taunting and lashing out.
        Regarding the repayment, hold Onto that…as an ace from you. Offer her to void any repayment of monies if she respects your wishes to leave you in peace and have contact only on your initiation. That if she can respect such, then it is worth forfeiting that amount of money..for peace of mind.
        Just my thoughts on what I have read. Not sure if any of it is valid to you. I just wish you to be careful and do your best to secure your own well being.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I find so few comments are actually able to be replied to, why is that HG? – I have no idea Miss S. The vagaries of WordPress is the best I can offer.

          1. Miss_stress says:

            Yes, I didn’t mean it was your doing, I meant under readers replies often there is no separate reply to comment. And when I reply as I am now in Reader, I have massive typos and miss sends.
            Yes, curses on you WordPress. Take my tirade.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Take my tirade, that made me laugh.

          3. Miss_stress says:

            Did you imagine me ferociously typing and then having to witness the plethora of typos upon send and my immediate angst? If not, it is always implied.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You and me both Miss S, without the angst of course on my part.

          5. Miss_stress says:

            You see my angst, with your fury HG.

          6. Miss_stress says:

            Again, brilliant philosophical line of thinking. Very soliciter like, In fact. If I believe myself innocent of any charge against me, by telling Myself, I had valid reasons for doing such, even though I rationally know I am in the legal perimeters of wrong doing, then the burden of proof Is upon you. As one cannot know the mind of another, unless you are me, that is ๐Ÿ˜
            He would say, it doesn’t matter if I lie to others, as long as a I believe I am telling the truth, as long as I believe it that is all that matters. I would say, but you trick yourself into Believing it so that you can escape fault or blame. So In telling yourself you are being honest you are essentially lying to your self in order to convince others you are being truthful. HG. Will such an act pass a lie detector test? What say you ?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Lie detector tests are unreliable. Like people they can be played.

          8. Miss_stress says:

            I would be type though innocent lie detector would read guilty, based on anxiety and emotional response to taking test. Excellent choice of words, being played .

          9. cjhawkes03 says:

            I do like how you have said this here too Miss_S… that essentially the N is lying to themselves in order to convince everybody else that the lie is in fact truth.

            However you are very correct HG in the lie detectors are very unreliable… hence the reason they are not admissible in the court room! So many different variable are considered as a factor here including has the individual deluded themselves into believeing their behaviour is appropriate and acceptable… is the individual even hearing the same question that is being asked to them or are they hearingsomething completely different in their own minds and responding to that?? The list of things that could effect the outcome is likely very long thus yes…. resulting in a lie detector being unreliable.

            I would still be very curious to see that unfold though…. to see HG vs The lie detector… just out of curiosoty lol!!! ๐Ÿ˜‰

        2. cjhawkes03 says:

          Thank you Miss_Stress for having weighed in. Your opinion is greatly appreciated!!!

          I like how you have written about her feeling as if sheowns me given th age that this relationship began at!! I have never thought of it this way honestly but not that you have put it out there… that feels 150% correct!!! It feels like she has this belief of entitlement and ownership of me which lets face it… at the end of the day, thats only her own deluded and twisted thoughts!!! Nobody “owns” me… i am nobody’s property despite what she may believe!!! So yes… this rings very true to me and thankyou for pointing that out!!!

          I questioned her of all those things at xmas too… so why cant me and the kids father be in the same house?? Which yes..i am now all too aware that it was her way of controlling the situtation and preventing us from being able to talk and share stories thus possibly opening BOTH of our eyes to her true nature and sooner!!! Same as asking why he couldnt take the kids without her needing to be there and was met with a “because i cant trust him not to then keep them from me and ill loose them” which again… lies, manipulation, playing on my emotions etc etc. She has ALWAYS been well aware of particularly my BPD traits that cause me to be “overly emotional” or more acurately… i feel my emotions at such extreme levels and severe intensity compaired to the “average” (for lack of better word sorry!!) Person. She is aware of how i feel about myself in regards to not feeling like a worthy person, always finding ways to blame myself in the end for things that go wrong, etc etc… and i do not doubt whatsoever that she uses all of these things to her advantage in anyways she deems nessecary to maintain her control!!!

          I must say… i agree with you completely also when it comes to my birthday and her self harm!!! I never believed at first that she was going to go thru with it (as i had already sorta started to wake up to some of her behaviours by this stage… particularly some of her manipulative ways!! I just thought this was her not happy that i was in a great mood and trying to manipulate the situation back to being about her). Then when she didnt have quite the level of impact she thought she would when making the threat alone (given my reply being something along the lines of… “ok… well… i cannot control what you end up deciding to do as i can stop you… i am not there. So just let me know if you do end up going through with it”. Which might i add… this is only me spoon feeding back to her the things she has said to me in the past lol!!! I was angry and determined not to give in to what i could see as manipulation at the time… especially given the fact that it was my f@#king birthday after all… the 1 day out of all 365 in the year that i would have expected some support and celebration in a way!!!), she found herself in the position of having tofollowing through on her threat!! I completelyagree that at the onset, she didnt intend onneeding to follow through… she felt backed into a corner and like she had no choice but to follow through to reign in the situation and bring it back to her.

          I will take what you have said in regards to the DVO too and sit with that also. I have actually almost finished filling in the papers… i was just putting off filing them after hearing what HG had to say as well as Blood and Thunder confirming it also… i lack in physically proof thanks to having lost it all… thank you telstra (and yes… i am more than happy to blame shift here as it is bloody telstra’s fault lol!!!) However as you said… safety she be paramount. So ill give her the chance to stayaway as requested…. ill even tell her to her face if thats what she claims to need (i just will not be giving her the chance to speak in the meantime… it will be opening the door… stating my wishes… closing the door!!!). Then if she cannot follow through with my wishes… i will then have some “proof” that i can take with me to court as i will also be recording all of this to which she will not be aware!!! I do believe that she still thinks that she can turn up face to face and plead her love for me blah blah and ill just fall back into her arms which is not the case at all!!! She does not realise at all that im suring up all my defenses and yes… going proactive instead, while she is too busy organising her move!!! Ive already started to some of the things you have suggested in regards to contacting my supports etc. Im trying to organise locks on my side gates that will prevent her coming through the back. Im making sure that everyone here at my house knows to keep the screen door at least, locked at all times (as they are all aware of her true nature and ready to do whatever is needed to keep her away from me) and will continue to work on the other suggestions you have made!!!

          Thankfully…. she has never raised a hand to me physically. However i think she knows better than to physically assault me!!! The ways she hasabused me up until now have been so sneakyand covert etc that i didnt even realise the degree of her emotional and psychological abuse until multiple therapists pointed it out to me!!! Then things started clicking into place and slowly started to make more and more sense to me. However i think she knows that to come at me physically would have been a whole new ball game and one that i actually would have won… especially when consideration is given to what i do for a living… ive spent years now restraining much bigger and far stronger men than her and i would have had no problem with restraining her quickly and efficiently. So ive never feared her in the physical sense… i only fear her in regards to how she has already shattered so much of me emotionally and psychologically.

          Thank you once again for your insight and advice!! I really do value it and will be taking it all onboard!!!

          Oh and…. i hope you have a blast down under on your holiday!! AUS really is a beautiful place with so many things to see!!! Just be prepaired depending on what time of year you decide to visit in regards to the weather lol!!! Summer here can be so ridiculously and grosely hot its not funny (ive lived all over AUS my whole life yet Queensland summer STILL floors me and i can still get quite sick actually as its so damn hot somedays lol!!! So yes… thats about the best tip i can give lol!!! Otherwise… i hope you have the trip of a lifetime and your greated with nothing but our typical Aussie kindness etc!!! As a general rule…. we are a very friendly bunch of people lol ๐Ÿ˜‰).

          Cheers Miss_Stress

          1. Miss_stress says:

            Hi, CJ
            Not sure if any of it was helpful, but it is my interpretation form what you had disclosed. I am pleased to know she was not physically abusive to you. It is good to know You are well versed In the restraints and holds. I am as well through my previous work. More along the lines of non violent crisis intervention techniques. Kicks, blocks, holds, hair pulls, etc. I advocate communicate foremost over any type of physical restraint. Where restraint is the last resort. I had issues using restraint on children. I can effectively utilize verbal communication, tone, cadence and body language to deescalated most situations. Respectful rapport goes a long way in my books. But, yes, holds and restraints have had to been used as safety for individual and self. I am sure that training saved my own life when assaulted by N.
            I am please to know you are being proactive in roe paring for her return. Well done. In case you follow though with DVO, collection of any evidence that is burden of proof on your behalf of her threatening behaviour will serve you well.
            She is a keen manipulator, that is correct she does not own you ….use those words as mantra to keep you strong when she returns.
            You are ware of how she operates and can hopefully chart out potential ploys she may try to use to get you to return to her.
            All you can do is keep educating yourself, keep seeking answers and and always realize, this is your life, not hers. It is your choice how you live it, who is in it with you and you deserve to be happy and feel loved, genuinely. No one has a right to abuse another or use their illness or disorder or well being against them to their own advantage. That is not love or humanity.

          2. cjhawkes03 says:

            Touchรจ Miss_Stress. I cannot agree with you more in regards to how you ended that. It is my life and i have the right to be genuinelly happy and loved.

            Yes… thats more accurate too in regards to restrai ts. I am trained yearly with refreshers in non voilent crisis intervention so yes… how to block kicks and punches, get out of grabs, bites and hair pulls etc. I have had to unfortunately use restraint as a last resort only when yes… communication has not been successful. Most of the time, i can deescalate a situation through using commincation like yourself however i personally have worked with some of the biggest, strongest boys and men throughout our entire state. Boys and men with the most challenging behaviours state wide and i wouldnt take back any of it as i love working with these fellas and its very rewarding work!!! It just unfortunately has reached the stage of physical intervention on numerous occassions for both their own safety and that of myself or anyone around. But yep… as a rule, i will always only resort to physical intervention as an absolute last resort!!!
            Why i do believe that it appears to be the case that, as you previously mentioned, wedo seem to have an aweful lot in common lol!!! Very interesting indeed ๐Ÿ˜‰

            Thanks again Miss_Stress for your thoughts and opinions… i have found what you have said so far to indeed be very helpful!!! I look forward to more discussion and learning more through reading from HG and reading from people’s comment including most definately, yours. Cheers!!
            P.s. its very good to hear that your training was able to save your life in regards to the abuse you recieved. I wouldnt wish any abuse on anybody however its good to know that to a degree… you were able to protect yourself.

          3. Miss_stress says:

            Wow, this was from a while back….yes, I agree such work is rewarding. I enjoy working with people , regardless what some think of certain factions of society. I see people beyond their behaviours. Probably why I try to understand , more then judge.
            I was wondering how you were doing CJ….glad to see posting. Keep asking questions ๐Ÿ˜Š
            What I enjoy here is that HG allows us to communicate and relate and effect one another through this blog. He is generous in that respect that we can ask of each other to seek answers and we can ask of him. I never view this blog as providing fuel, I view it as being informed.

          4. cjhawkes03 says:

            I am right there with you Miss_S with seeing people beyong their behaviours and trying to understand rather than judge!! As far as i am concerned… what right do i have to judge anybody else regadless or disability, race, sex, sexuality, religion, etc etc etc. I know what it feels like to be beaten and bullied etc for being gay myself so i would NEVER subject anybody else to that sort of treatment!!

            I also agree with what you have written about out illustrious leader HG lol.. he is extremely generous in that he allows us to communicate with each other and seek more answers, knowledge and wisdom from one another.
            I am continually grateful to HG for giving us his time and the insight and knowledge he continually rains down on us!! Cheers once again HG and cheers to you too Miss_S

          5. Miss_stress says:

            Well stated. CJ, I agree. Who are we to judge.
            I do appreciate Hg patience as I know I write a lot and question a lot to seek understanding and I suppose it can become tedious for him. I have a slightly challenging, yet respectful nature.
            Knowledge breaks my mental chains in these issues, all working towards freedom and healing.
            I have reaped much reward for the knowledge here form HG and other readers, it is a blessing to soothe the previous feeling of curse.

      8. CJ – given your history together and the fact that you know she is going to try to win you back on false promises and intense manipulation, I think the course of action you outlined below is probably the best.

        Stop her before she starts and don`t give her any opportunity.

        As HG has stated numerous times, if you can hold steadfast in your commitment to No Contact, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

        It will likely get worse before it gets better though, so anticipate that and tell yourself you just have to accept it. In my experience, some will give in simply to make the onslaught of vitriol and cruelty stop. Many view being ensnared again (and the obvious consequences) as being better than suffering through the barrage of brutality.

        Just tell yourself this:`

        “Ye though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for thou art with me.”

        Thou, of course, being HG!!!

        Best of luck to you.

  10. Sidney says:

    There comes a time… A moment…. A word… That provides such clarity, insight and empowerment, that one truly is liberated.

  11. Yo says:

    For me this article is just great. Coz i think it s the essence of narc’s issues.
    Early in my life i realised that it s not possible good for everybody. And early in my life (to be honest) i started being indifferent to what ppl think. I mean, i care, but not that much.
    But NARCs are extremely dependant on opinion of others… which is just ridiculous…
    No sense in it. What s the value that mr. X thinks or ms. Y thinks…..
    Common! Ppl r more forcused on themselves, may be they dont think about u at all.
    Who cares.. we just live our lifes. Each of us.

  12. Yo says:

    Does rages is “obligatory” component for being a NARC?
    I am thinking: this thing is easy to check (with a guy himself and/or ppl who knows him fir a long time).
    Can we say that if a person was not observed as a person with ranges, we can conclude he is not a narc?

    I am thinking about “must have” elements which will allow us to clearly identify that if a guy does not have them, so he is not a narc..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      We all have fury churning away inside. Some of us are better at controlling it than others. Sometimes it manifests as heated fury (shouting, breaking things,hitting people) and sometimes it may manifest as cold fury (silence, cold shoulders and baleful glares) . Read Fury for more.

      1. Miss_stress says:

        HG, your fury stays mostly in the cold variation, correct?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Depends on the situation and who I am dealing with.

          1. Miss_stress says:

            I seem to incite heated fury in them. As well as cold fury. As long as not physical violence , I can with stand the rages, the silent treatments are more difficult for me, emotionally.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are not alone in finding silent treatments hard to deal with, many people do and I know Clarece hates them.

          3. Miss_stress says:

            Well when we are subjected to long silent treatment via absence they are emotionally torturing. Those who have only been subjected to days or less or silences while still in partner presence cannot fathom the scope of abuse. Well, they can on a different scale of silence. MlA will understand and I sure others here do as well

          4. Miss_stress says:

            Thank you HG. It must be my questioning and knowing nature that incites them, what do you reckon?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            More than likely. This will be regarded as a criticism.

          6. Miss_stress says:

            Sadly, it is not from my point of view. It was questioning and not listening to answers given to questions. Because I was weeding past each line of defence and deceptions with further questions.
            I do understand how it would be preceived that way.

  13. CindyLynn says:

    The lashing out is proof of your acknowledgement of your shortcomings. If you can not handle criticism that is your problem. It is not your targets load to carry. Targets should not attempt to behave dishonestly to avoid your “wrath”; they should stand on the truth. Then walk away if coexistence is impossible. I will never be abused or manipulated again.

    My question to the author: If you really are a malignant narcissist then what source of fuel do you get from these articles?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello CindyLynn, I would have thought it was fairly obvious ; over 750 000 hits, people providing attention fused with admiration, thanks, amusement, hatred, pity, upset, anger and so forth. Repeated interactions with many people. The knowledge that such articles draw comment, response, people’s gratitude that it has given them hitherto unattainable insight, the conviction to take control of their own destiny and so forth.

      1. Cody says:

        Here’s some more fuel for you:
        At the rate you’re going you’ll hit 1,000,000 before the end of the year. How are you going to celebrate?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Cody.

          Good question. I shall celebrate by raising two fingers to my mother, I shall consume a freshly delivered soul, have some new business cards printed and issue a short, free book for those who have contributed.

      2. Alice says:

        Does it make it easier for you to focus on everday life (offline), and possibly also one one woman/girlfriend in real life?

        Do you feel like this blog and interaction with us is making you progress too?

        Or are you still stuck in the narc rut, doomed to repeating the same old manipulative patterns over and over again, generating only one ‘positive’ feeling (power)?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The blog and interaction is aiding my awareness and understanding.

          Am I stuck in the rut? I don’t regard it as a rut. I am learning more about the alternatives however.

    2. TheFlowerandRock says:

      Standing on the truth, in the truth, for the truth, of the truth for most individuals does not come easy. For those of us whom it does, we are well versed with being misunderstood, and lashed out at with many covert and overt behaviours, and there for we will respond assertively to this with empathy and compassion. We do not feel bad for being a support and a teacher and way shower to others, nor do we feel uncomfortable being a catalyst for positive change. We do not seek to find our worth in others. We do not pay matter to what people think of us, and this is not because we are indifferent, it because we are more concerned with the development of people.

      I resonate with what you say here CindyLynn


      1. Miss_stress says:

        Yes, Shelley, it is nice to know your name by the way. We do it because it is right and just and needs to be done. If not us. Then who?
        I will always be an advocate for the disenfranchised and the voiceless and anyone who needs help. I do not hate anyone, including those who have abused me. I accept and seek to understand. I do my best to love and nevr hate. I am no better then anyone else, I am imperfect and in need of healing as well. I am No ones judge. But I will not remain silent, even if it means I must suffer. We can all learn for each other, narcisisist, empath, co dependent, Personality disordered. Everyone has the power to teach and learn lessons.
        HG has taught us much through his writings and will continue to do so. Through him, we may teach others, as well. The healing flows in an endless stream.

  14. nikitalondon says:

    If I have learned somethinc here is about critics and Ns and anyway critizing is a form of violent communication and should be avoided with anybody..
    Was very nice to read… I could feel the fury from the Words.. ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ๐Ÿ”ฅ

  15. 2mpathetic says:

    Killswitch engage. I had a friend who was married to an N. (Birds of a feather). He and I would have good times bantering back and forth which he used to triangulate his wife. I knew exactly what to do to make him mad. Once for fun I just laughed at everything he said. He kept asking why are u laughing and I said nothing just kept snickering. He erupted like Mt. Vesuvius. Scared the !@#$ out of me. I did not allow him to see my fear. He stormed out and didn’t come home that night. His mom was N. They talked everyday, she & him had an oedipal like relationship. He was the golden child. His relationship with the father is where the problem lied. The Dad critiqued everything he did. I mean stupid stuff. Mom would come in and soothe him. Tell him you’re my perfect man. They created a monster. This guy was insatiable. He really thought that nobody could see through him (stereo mc’s connected, song lyrics are always in my head). I really wonder why he couldn’t let go of the rage. Why didn’t he want to let it go? Is it Admitting weakness to say I’m enraged at my Dad? He had just cause to be mad. Did he think you can’t break me? He was only hurting himself carrying the rage. He refused to look at it, kept it locked up. Which is funny because N’s think knowledge is power but they don’t get to know the beast within. That’s the real enemy, why don’t you want to cozy up to it and find out where the killswitch is? He had plenty of people to soothe him. But there is my empathy showing with the why? HG, please take it to the bridge homeboy. (90s song in my head)

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He couldn’t let go of the rage because we cannot, our fury is always there churning away. I would recommend that you read Fury to learn more about it as it touches on something which is actually central to much of what we do but many people do not appear to have picked up on that.

      1. 2mpathetic says:

        Fine I’ll go back and RE-READ it. Don’t expell any energy on my account.

  16. Leilani says:

    Precisely HG. It gets deep rapidly. Great post.

  17. Soaking it in says:

    Very interesting. This is the very area I can loose control and my monster comes out. However and this is the place we are so diffrent. I don’t feel the pain of a criticism to myself. I need to be triangulated ( I learned this from you) with a victim being abused and then I will go after the abuser, which in this case would be you. I became the nurse because I was protecting the wounded. My whole purpose in life has been to protect the abused but I have to be triangulated before it is released. Then when that monster has caught your fire it’s all over for you. My anger becomes someone else and I have no control but you will pay a very dear price for hurting another person. I have no mercy. I need to find the reason we work in this manner. This probably seems like it’s nothing but for me there is something behind why our reactions are the same but for diffrent reasons. I am suspecting the reason being no one told me I was great and therefore I must be triangulated to feel the victims. There’s something here. Thanks HG.

    1. Miss_stress says:

      I understand what you are saying, soaking it in. I cannot tolerate seeing abuse of another in any form. I have stood up for strangers, clients, patients, friends and family …men, women and children and animals who are being treated unfairly. It does anger me. More So then any mistreatment to myself. It also saddens me that others stand by, instead of standing up. The by stander mentality, this circle of indifference to the plights of those around us astounds me.

  18. centauride12 says:

    Have you ever felt anything positive?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  19. Lisa says:

    HG your kind are so fragile , so vulnerable and yet have no feelings . Doesn’t quite add up๐Ÿค” I always knew that my N was the weak one but I didn’t know about N’s then .

    1. HG Tudor says:

      We feel things. Envy, rage, hatred, frustration to name a few.

      1. Lisa says:

        Hmmmm you missed out Rejection

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