Victim or Volunteer – Part Three

 

 

The Hoover. The ever reliable method of causing you to come to us or to come back to us. As I have written in Black Hole there are several hoovers that we utilise during the engagement with you. I am focusing on the hoovers which take place post-escape (where you manage to get away from us) or post-discard (where we have left you).

What about the hoover which comes when you have been discarded? At this point you have been thrown to one side, often with no warning and left to fathom out what on earth has happened to you. One minute you were the cock of the walk and then suddenly you became a feather duster. You were high on the pedestal and without warning (or at least without any warning which you might detect) you were hurled from that pedestal and down you went. Now you are sprawled in the dirt, hurting and confused. But wait. Here we come again. We are riding back into town, behaving as if nothing has actually happened. Indeed, this hoover is just like the first one you experienced, the delicious pull of the initial seduction. We are charming, considerate and magnetic and it feels so good doesn’t it? But it gets better. We have apologised for the things we did wrong and we are pledging to make changes, to do things differently, to even go and get some help. This is music to your ears, just what you hoped would happen as you lay alone in bed, crushed, night after night sobbing in anguished bewilderment. The old us has returned and with it we bring promises of improvement and signs of recognition. This is better than you had hoped for.

Pause for a moment. You know what has happened. You know because you experienced it. Everything was wonderful and then it changed. Not only did it change by virtue of the exciting and marvellous way we treated you vanishing but then we abused you. Of course you will make excuses for this treatment because look, the golden carrot is being dangled again. Of course you will accept some or even all of the blame because look the golden carrot is there and you do not want lose it do you. Who knows, if you step through the archway into the golden period again you might actually get some answers about what has happened. Surely lightning will not strike twice? We seem different. We seem to be sorry and ready to acknowledge our failings so surely it would only be right to give us another chance, after all, you are a forgiving and empathic individual. You just want this pain to go away and it will by getting back together with us again. You still do not understand what happened but you may get some explanations and even if you do not, will it really matter now that we are together again. Yes, that lure of the golden period is mightily strong, especially when you are feeling so weak, so tried, so wretched. It is entirely understandable, predictable even that you would come back to us with open arms. Do you remain a victim or have you just volunteered?

What then where you have escaped us? You may not know everything about why we did as we did but you understood enough to know that enough was enough and you escaped. You have implemented no contact and sought to keep away from us. You being to wonder whether that seduction was real or not. It certainly seemed real, it felt real. The abuse was definitely real, you know that much and you are damned if you are going to go through that again. You have begun to read and you are starting to understand what has happened. Some pieces of the jigsaw are falling into place. Yet, here we come with that inviting hoover again but you are going to repel us, you know it is a device to haul you back in to our grip again. You must stay strong, but it is difficult. You do feel lonely and that golden period with us, well it was unlike anything that you have ever known. What if those promises contained in that beautifully written letter are genuine? Surely it could not hurt to try again? Mind you, what if we haven’t changed and it starts again, but perhaps this time that will not happen because you feel that you know what to look out for and you can stop it before it starts. Yes, you have knowledge and you can apply that to protect yourself and also to repair our damage so that we remain happy. It makes perfect sense. You can engage with us but do so with your eyes wide open this time. You can assert yourself and lay down markers and boundaries, establish that things will be on your terms so you have control within the relationship. That is the plan. You want that golden period (and you do not want anybody else having it) and using what you know you can return but this time operating from a position of strength. Are you a victim now or a volunteer?

What about the fourth time we commence the hoovering. Three times it has ended and three times you have gone back. Everything was wonderful for a period of time, a few months and then it started all over again. The same behaviours, the same manipulations and the same abusive actions. You cursed yourself for falling for the overtures but you really thought that this time, yes, this time more than the last time or the time before that, you will not fall for the same lines, the same empty promises and the charm. It is hard and you understand this. You have discussed it so many times with your friends and family. You have seen a therapist too and you read about the subject as well, but the attraction it is so strong and there is always that little voice that says to you,

“One more time, this time might be the time that it works.”

That little voice is so powerful.

Perhaps you should succumb to yet another hoover, you would not want the golden period to go to anyone else would you?

Are you now a victim or a volunteer?

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91 thoughts on “Victim or Volunteer – Part Three”

  1. I literally hit send on your other post and this comes up….starting to get paranoid, that’s your trick right? Always in my head (coldplay).

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  2. H,
    Here’s a question. What if victim becomes volunteer knowing full well what will happen but doesn’t care because just wants great sex? I left forever Narc 29 years ago after being engaged. I walked out flew home and didn’t look back. 4 years went by. He calls, he Flys home, I see him, I berated him. He gets enraged leaves. Year goes by, he Flys home, calls I meet him we do it, I don’t call he doesn’t call, he leaves. Same thing happens 4 years later. Again 3 years later. One year later he finds out I’m getting married begs me not to. He will fly in he says. Keeps calling, invite me to wedding he says, I say no. He calls again this time my fiance answers tells him to F off and never call me again. I’m married 5 years in. He calls. Wants to get together he could fly in. I say no. Go no contact. He gets married that year. 2010 I go on FB. Same day friend request. I accept. We chat. This goes on for a while. Chat Starts to turn sexual in nature. I do it, fun banter. Why don’t we meet? Uh we are married. But you give the best……
    I say yes, yes I do, but I had a skillful teacher and lots of practice sense we were young. He says yes, last time we were together and you did that thing……. mind blown. Weren’t we great together? Yes we were in say. Ok he says we need to meet. I say no. Disappear from FB. It been another 4 years. I get back on FB within one hour i have message. We both know what is up. We are chatting, messaging, skyping. I will email you graphic details if it helps you with the full dynamics. He’s coming here, home in August. Right now I’m in no contact as of 5 days as my husband almost found out. He is still looking for me even though I’ve had to delete my FB, messenger and Skype to appease Hubs. I logged on to Skype and one message is there. Lovie come back. (That’s his nickname for me). Should I have phenomenal sex and risk my wonderful farthest thing from a Narc Husband? Should I risk all my friends and family who adore my husband and think he’s the best thing that ever happened to me? They will disappear if I cheat. Should I get with him once and no contact him like before? Why does he keep coming back for the one and done sex? I do it because it was phenomenal. Highly enticing you know, right ladies. But, he has been seductive but with more devaluing this time more than ever. Lots of ST’s in between messages, which I ignore but he ends up writing me. Lots of remarks that I can tell you privately if it helps. Please H, apply your wisdom to your most obedient follower. You got any kool-aid? I’m thirsty. Thanks sweetie 😗

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    1. Hello 2mpathetic, quite the history there and the tantalising and mind-blowing sex is the golden carrot that is repeatedly dangled in front of you. You posed the question “what if the victim knows what will happen but does not care?”
      I see two parts to the element of not caring.
      1. You know what he is. He seduces you (you are always content to allow the contact and you readily engage in sexual discussions with him and have met previously for sex) and then disappears. You do not seem especially bothered that he disappears although I may not have picked that up correctly from your message. You accept he disappears for years, then swoops in and lays on the sexual charm, you go along with it to a lesser of greater extent, he disappears and you get on with your life before it happens again. You understand what he is and do not appear concerned by this yo-yo behaviour. That is fair enough. If you know what he is and you want the great sex and are content for him to vanish again afterwards, you are an adult and if you are happy to have that arrangement that is a matter for you. You do not care what he is or care about the silent treatments, you are happy to get the great sex.
      2. You don’t seem to care about your husband (at least from this message)
      a. You repeatedly engage in sexual flirtation with the N;
      b. You are contemplating infidelity;
      c. You only deleted FB, Messenger etc because your husband insisted, rather than deeming it appropriate to do so and remain away from this interfering influence.

      You acknowledge your husband is wonderful but there is evidently something lacking in the relationship because you are having your head turned by the N. That would be understandable if you did not know what he is and you were being targeted, but you know what he is and you are content to consider further interaction with the N.
      Why does the N keep coming back? Easy – fuel. You respond every time he makes a hoover move, he knows you love going to bed with him, that fuels him and knowing that he can lure you away from your husband, take you to bed and then disappear again fuels his power and sense of importance. You are an easy target to him.
      Sex only happens as a small part of the relationship, yes it is regarded as an important part, but the amount of time one has having sex compared to say spending time with the friends and family who adore your husband (although you do not say what they think of you or whether you are overly bothered about losing them) and also the time with your husband (who you admit is wonderful) is small.
      I understand the allure of the N but you appear to understand
      1. What he is;
      2. You risk losing your marriage;
      3. You risk losing friends and family
      for the sake of perhaps only one night of admitted amazing sex with the N.
      I think most people would regard that as a high price to pay for the night of passion.
      I would recommend you instigate NC and have nothing more to do with the N. You are not bothered about the direct effect he has on you (by being with him and then him leaving) but I suspect you will be bothered by the indirect effect that arises from the loss of husband, friends and family.
      If there is additional material that you want me to see that may alter my view, do e-mail it to me.

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      1. This is an amazing post HG that can be appreciated. This reply opens up eyes and awareness . Thank you. You’re wonderful.

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  3. Volunteer. My narc and I dated for 3 or 4 months and I was discarded, he returned 8 months later and I did not make it easy on him, it took about 3 or 4 months before I considered us an item again. After that it would be 12 years before he would leave, and when he did, he counted I would be ensnared at his whim, the first time I was a victim, the second time I became a survivor, now the trick is to remain as one and not succumb to volunteer myself, as his attempts will probably last the rest of my lifetime.

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      1. He wouldn’t go away, I was so young, 21 years old. Finally after I turned to him after months of him chasing me trying to convince me we were meant to be together I turned to him out of the blue and simply said aren’t you staying the night? He looked surprised and replied I didn’t know that was ok, because I had been so difficult, I was told that was my appeal to him, no other female has been challenging for him and I was when we first met and again after he left and came back that also became the reason he proposed to me he knew he could trust me and that I made him actually work to get me….I bought it too…

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  4. so what if you know they are disordered, and they know you have been studying and are an expert on the disorder now.. would they still bother then??? to come and hoover and open the wound again?

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    1. If I knew you had been gaining some knowledge it would not put me off per se from attempting to hoover you, just because you have acquired some knowledge does not mean you will necessarily apply it to yourself. Cobblers with holes in their shoes anyone? Indeed, the potential challenge in you ramping up your defences in this manner may prove appealing. One would assess the effort v benefit and proceed accordingly.

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  5. Wow this ones sounds more familiar and its totally a differeng situation. I have to say that it applies close to my last relationship. According to my friends when I came back the last time then yes I was a kind of volunteeer or kind of a volunteer but I was so sure it would work out.
    If I would not have the person that I have in my heart now and to give an example I would go back to him then there I would be a 100% volunteer. Knowing exactly what will be the outcome…
    Amazing HG the 3 parts and how different they can be.
    You are AMAZING writer. Every day you amaze me like the first time 😘😘❤️

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    1. Where is part one Miss Stress? I agree with you about his writing, master of words makes for master story teller makes for master writer. Yay for Us!!! 📖

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      1. I didn’t even post on this article, only just read it now. Do I have touch of ever presence going on….just kidding. Must have been another connection for you 2empathic. I did post On Article one.
        I do concur without any doubt, HG is a most fantastic wordsmith.

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      2. Miss Stress, you’re funny. I too was told to pay attention recently by the puppetmaster of this land of narc. You and me in the back of the class cracking each other up is fun. We just can’t get caught because he’ll put me in a well for sure this time and I don’t know what plans he has for you…..oh shit hide, here he comes!

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      3. Hi…2empathic, oh, it was not HG who told me to listen better. It was another N. He always felt I failed to listen properly when in the midst of purging my own thoughts. I admit, this is true at times.
        That’s okay, I will take the blame and the well duty, if I can have a light down there and a blanket please and no water at the bottom of well. It must be dry. And no bugs.

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  6. I did not volunteer for abuse the first, second, third , fourth…and so on …time. I TRUSTED the wrong man. Foolishly I might add but having a poor judge of character and attributing qualities to him that he did not have does not equal volunteering for abuse.

    Once you begin to understand your own value and worth, you begin to ask yourself questions like, why do I need to give this person who has already demonstrated who he is, another opportunity to hurt me? What about me makes me believe that I am only capable of a partnership with an abusive individual who claims he has reformed? Why do I feel this is a risk worth taking? Why must I give this person another chance? It feels agonizing to say no but once self love and self care begin to take root, it becomes obvious that saying yes and re-entering g that painful dynamic is not the answer.

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  7. The “red” line in several articles is that the victim “subscribes”)) to the relationship again coz she/he doesnt want anybody else to take that sweet place.
    I think it s based on the assumption that normal ppl feel “greedy” like NARCs.
    That s not true.
    If this placevis not for you, you just dont care who will take it!

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  8. But yes. Thank you so much for this idea of volunteering…
    Inspite of the intention to shift responsibility from “ill head to a healthy head”,
    U r right. That we r responsible 1) to leave you with 1st signs of abuse (visible ones) 2) never ever be “in” again

    Thank you. These articles gives force not to go back.

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  9. I get a Hoover every single week. They are weak hoovers like ….”just saying hey…..missing you….you doing ok, haven’t heard from you…send me a sexy pic”
    Sometimes I ignore, sometimes I get totally sucked in. The Hoover, devalue, discard, re-Hoover cycle repeats itself on a weekly basis. Sometimes we meet face to face and sometimes the entire cycle from beginning to end is all through text. I’ve read all the books, but I just can’t break the addiction. Hoping “exorcism” will guide me. I’m too pretty for this sh*t

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    1. Hello Narcaddict, are you able to identify how you are able to resist some hoovers and how some suck you back in? Is there a particular situation or style of hoover which proves your undoing more than others? Do the hoovers happen at certain set times or is there no pattern? I’m interested how you state that the entire cycle happens all through text and appears to be on a weekly basis and I have my thoughts as to what is really happening but I wonder if you might actually describe how these texts pan out, the content for what you see as the hoover, the devalue, the discard and the hoover again?

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      1. There’s no rhyme or reason to why I take the bait sometimes. I guess I am just weak for him on occasion. I don’t feel like it has to do with the timing or the content of the Hoover. Sometimes I just ignore the daily attempts until he gives up for about a week. The cycle goes something like this:
        Tuesday: Hoover text about how I’m doing. I respond nicely. This quickly progresses into questions about if I’ve been sleeping with anyone; when are we gonna get married; I miss you. I then give him mountains of fuel. Stroke his ego hard with praise, some sexting and maybe send a few selfies. He genuinely appears interested and engages in a free flowing conversation. This goes back and forth all day long. He says he wants to see me this week. (Hoover)
        Wednesday: a good morning text and tells me tomorrow is a good day for him to meet up. Silence the rest of the day (devaluing)
        Thursday: no texts and by this time he’s either canceled the meet-up or if he does meet with me, he’s mean, uninterested and almost annoyed he has to be with me. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, etc: silent treatment. (Discard)
        I should add that he has a girlfriend that he lives with. She’s an empath, wayyy older than him, pays all the bills etc.
        Don’t judge…I’m addicted.

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      2. Hello Narcaddict and thank you for adding the detail. I don’t think he is discarding you but rather keeping you in the devaluation period through silent treatments. He contacts you when it is convenient for him to do so without detection from his GF and the silent treatments arise because he will be dealing with her. Time comes around and he ends the silent treatment by getting in touch with you through a respite hoover and he knows it will work eventually, even though you may not respond at first. You at least understand what is happening and the dynamic that is at work.

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      3. HG,
        What if hoovers happen thru FB, text or phone and are of a sexual based nature, but years and years apart. I have met with forever Narc several times over the years and he and I agree to meet for sex. He asks me to keep in touch but I don’t because to me it was a one and done. He doesn’t contact me either but time goes by and we agree again. I was his intimate but left him and got away. Everytime we have contact he brings up the fact I left him. Also says do you realize that you and I would have been married x amount of years? Why does he still feel the need to meet me? Its been happening over 29 years. I just want the sex part. I have no interest other than that. What do you think he’s doing/thinking and why? Please grace me with your thoughts.

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      4. Hi 2empathetic, I have responded on this point as per your longer question. Apologies that it has taken a while to get to, I have a substantial backlog which I am addressing. Not my fault though of course.

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  10. I would say the appliace to be a volunteer. HG, the narcissist will stop hoovering temporarily if the appliance continues with No contact or discarded due to fuel exhaustion. He/she will continue to get fuel from other sources.

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    1. Hi Leilani, interesting. You are correct, if you maintain no contact we will switch our attention elsewhere in order to gain fuel. Do you think that any failure to maintain No Contact is your fault because you want us back and cannot keep it going or do you think it is often doomed to fail (at least at first) because of the condition you are in post-escape/post-discard and the power of our manipulative grip?

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      1. Hi HG, it is doom to fail each time a longing from the appliance is nurtured. Not only is the manipulation powerful, the grip can be tougher than human bones, tougher than an invisible man/woman, it is almighty for it stands the test of the appliance wanting to be loved, needed, approved, desperately hoping with faith for the golden period to return the security they think belong to them. They must succumb to the inevitable. A narcissist survival mode is always on auto pilot determined to slurp every ounce and drop of succulent fuel. It’s satisfaction guaranteed.

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  11. I never went back for seconds and he was my leftovers anyway.

    That said, this is a tough one and j think some people are 100% genuine victims they’ve been tricked and mind controlled. They want that fix again they want the golden period, they don’t want the abuse, it is a nasty after taste that they are willing to risk but it’s not want they want.

    Others and had I gone back for more I would likely have fitted into this category. You suffer abuse as a child in whatever form that takes and it makes you literally crave the pain. You need to feel that pain because that too feels good. You life the golden period, of course you do. But that would never sustain us either. We would become bored of that as do you. So we also seek out the pain and that makes us an ill-educated and unwitting volunteer.

    What do you think HG ?

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    1. Oh you are a toughnut Alexis, “he was my leftovers”, you do appeal to me.

      I of course will in typical blame-shifting mode claim that you are volunteers but let’s switch that default setting off for a moment. You are victims it is clear. When you are susceptible to a hoover you are still massively under our control because of everything that has gone on before. Have a read of Exorcism to see the full extent of how that is achieved and why. Resisting that first initial grand hoover is very hard, that is why so many attempts at no contact fail the first time (but also through a lack of proper planning and preparation I might add) and whilst you may have made the decision to escape you are still not fully in control thereafter because of the previous and ongoing manipulations. You will recall me writing about the post discard battles. In the first one you are trying to swim through a tumultuous ocean. If you fell in the sea in a storm you cannot exert any control over the sea, you are completely at the mercy of the swelling and crashing waves. There is no control on your part, you cannot volunteer to be carried by the sea, you have no choice. The immediate aftermath post discard or post escape is similar. You have no control therefore you cannot volunteer.
      Of course we make out that you chose to come back to us as part of our blame-shifting (to use against you later) but also to kid you into thinking you have some control and the ability to make decisions.

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      1. Great reply HG – thank you.

        I only managed to not be sucked into the grand Hoover as when I returned from NC I had already worked out what he was.

        I’d gone NC because I’d gone NC with my sister a few years prior. I did not know what she at the time but I’d finally worked out she was bad for my self esteem. The day I went NC with her I gained copious amounts of strength, I never regretted it and went from being shy and quiet to full of beans and confidence and never ever looked back. It was this that made me know it was the only way to deal with the MN – to cut him out of my life completely. It was hard, really hard and the only thing that kept me going was thinking to myself that I never wanted to feel like this again. Not ever. Had I been hoovered in, I knew that I would eventually be taken back to that dark place and have to go through cutting the addiction once more. So I just kept pushing forward.

        And although I discarded him. He of course made up huge lies about having discarded me and led everyone to believe I was a slut. I still even now have many men (he has ‘spread the word to’) coming on to me.

        Something like that could make you sink. Of course your natural instinct is to want to protect you character. But to remove the cognitive dissonance and to not let him think he has bothered me in any way, I just go with it. It is a compartmentalised section of my life anyway. He is then always wondering whether something is going on between me and one of the other guys, and they’re left wondering why I would ‘go’ with him and not them. Because they are always much fitter and hotter than he was (well that’s not hard).

        Gosh I’ve completely digressed hahah

        But thanks for your affirmation that I am a victim and not a volunteer.

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    2. I feel I have been both, Alexis with different men, under different scenarios and tactics and my own life circumstances at those times. Regardless, I take responsibility for my choices and being duped , victimized and chosen. It hurts still, both for different reasons. I stil,blame myself for not heeding the signs and red flags and trusting what I knew in my heart was false. But so hoped I was not being betrayed. I still wonder because of my beliefs can it happen again, even being armed with all HG’s knowledge? I don’t fear another narcissist, I fear my ability to better heed my inner voice and trust myself.

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      1. Hey missy, I’m sorry you’re going through this right now, but you’re here now and I promise things will get better. HG is right though, we are victims. Don’t ever be hard on yourself for being duped, I’ve seen the very best out there being duped, it matters not how intelligent we are. If we don’t think like an N, we cannot even possibly comprehend that another would think like that either.

        but now we know though. I saw red flags too, many of them, he told me, how some girl had accused him of rape. how he’d tricked another into having a threesome with him and his friend and he was proud of both !!!! to name but a few. Each time I saw a red flag I stopped talking to him but he would pester me and play on his illness which made me feel bad. I had a gut feeling I couldn’t trust him, but I did. because we want, with all our heart, to believe these people. so whatever you do, don’t ever, ever blame yourself. they are conmen who have been mastering their art since they could talk, no before they could even talk.

        some people say you shouldnt victim blame and I agree. BUt someone once said to post N, maybe there is something aout you that needs to change to avoid attracting these types. I can’t tell you how much I hated him saying that to me. I really hated it. But you know what, he was damn right. and since then, I’ve become stronger and wiser, but I’m still the same me – just with clear boundaries now.

        Your fear of attracting another is realy missy and don’t underestimate that. so don;t rush into things too quickly.

        Most people, from evrything I’ve read, go through stages exactly as you are. blaming theirself, then becoming paranoid that everyone is an N and noone can be trusted. being cautious, spnding mroe time alone. until finally you get back to near your baseline and you can love and trust again. not everyone is an N, but there are many out there. especially in the younger generation. but there are many, many more who are not. just read everything you can and keep going until you’ve healed.

        I know I play around with mine. But I wouldn’t advise that for anyone else. I’m just not bothered anymore and I enjoy the game a little tiny bit. NC is the best way to heal.

        you’re worth so much more than anything he or any other N has to offer.

        big hugs and love xxx

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      2. Thank you Alexis, you are always so kind and helpful and encouraging to all. Your words resonate with me. I am remaining on my own, even in a “normal ” relationship it is not realty to rebound straight for mine to another as that is only for loneliness and a sense of safety or attachment. I realize I need a detachment period. I am content in my own, tbh it always felt I was mostly anyways, with so many silent treatments.
        He is the one that cannot be alone, he needs to feed and fuel continuously. I can survive alone and on my own feelings and emotion. I have my daughter, my family, my friends and my work.
        I enjoy your stories of teasing the N in your life, it is empowering and inspiring to read. That you have moved past him and proves we all can do the same in time.
        I appreciate you saying I am worth more, that is one of my biggest flaws, not knowing my own worth. If I knew it they may never have sought me out.
        We will survive.

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      3. It sounds like you’re doing all the right things. I remember when I was in early stages of understanding and recovery and how much others who had been through it helped me. There is nothing at all like speaking with someone who has also been with an N. It’s not something anyone else could possibly understand. One day I’d like to set up some form of life coaching / counselling for people. My husband laughs at me (he’s not an N, he’s wonderful) and says to me, god help anyone who comes to you for advice !

        You really should look at your own worth though, you’re incredible, just to have been through what you’ve been though and made it this far. I wonder how your friends and family would describe your worth ? And that’s how you should judge yourself.

        I read a book on boundaries as part of my healing. I found that so helpful, it really made sense how people like us can go to far in helping others. One of our biggest downfalls. I particularly recall a sentence about letting each person carry their own load and only if it is too heavy for them to you help, but only if it is not going to over burden your own load. And I live by that rule now. Well except for Ns. I’m not carrying their chains anymore, hey Jacob ?

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      4. Alexis, if that idea of life coaching and counselling Narcsisistic abuse survivors is a goal of yours, then do it and make it happen. There is nothing more satisfying in life, speaking personally , then giving back to others. You have much to give and it is a gain to self to give. The rewards are compounding to those you positively effect.
        What is the book you mention? Yes, not carry too heavy burden where one cannot meet their own needs and therefore will not be able to meet another’s. Ensuring that one is equipped to care for themselves and then attend to the needs of others. Where having been conditioned to meet others Needs foremost and ignore my own, until I am forced to address them. Yes, to begin to put our needs first and know we matter as much as others. Not less.

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      5. I will missy. I just want to learn as much as I possibly can first, yes support for N survivors and I need to find out a bit more legally about advising certain things which are essential with Ns as essentially this is beyond regular counselling. Yes we all need to learn to care for ourselves and realise this is healthy and not selfish.

        So the book I read was just called boundaries I think. T was a small pocket sized book, it had some religious connotations in there. I’m not religious so I ignored some of this but the message was still the same regardless. I know some people who had read the book who were religious and found it wonderful jn that way too.

        Also online there is a great article. It makes tough reading but it’s like you almost have to go through the hard parts to come though the other side tougher and stronger. The article is, ‘do you love to be needed it need to be loved’. If you google that it should come up with it. Let me know. But it does come with a warning that it is tough to read and will hurt but at the same time you may well like I did have aha moments about where we feel the need to keep giving. It was a pivotal turning point for me but I know a friend of mine who went through the same thing started to read it but found it too painful. So just do what’s right for you xx

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      6. What is lost, shall be found, seek and Ye shall find…. All good things come to those who wait…et cetera….
        Thank you Alexis, I will search out the book and article, that you have suggested. Mind you I have so many book on the go presently, I will add to the cue.
        Thank you Hg for posting Alexis reply as well. It is helpful to me to receive her advice.
        I don’t mind painful, in terms of emotionally rewarding. I find it beneficial to go through such to heal and mend. Much in the same when crying helps me come to an emotional resolve after feeling distraught. Akin to reaching the light after so long spent in darkness.
        Have a wonderful day, Alexis x

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      7. I know what you mean re the books missy. I always have lots on the go. then I forget where I am as I flit from one to another and then most I end up getting 3/4 of the way through because I’ve found a more interesting one hahahahaha

        Obviously I read all of HGs in order from cover to cover.

        I’m pleased too that you got my reply. Although I’m not going to thank HG. hahahah

        Yes going through the pain is the best thing today. I cannot tell you how amazing I feel as a person. I was broken before the MN but he took me to a much darker place and from that I grew stronger than ever before.

        Big hug and love to you missy xxx

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      8. Yes, I always finish HGs books too….aren’t we good girls, HG?
        I still working my way through healing childhood trauma, the book and life version.
        Sending love back to you too Alexis, thank you x

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      9. Good girls for reading, bad girls in other ways. The jury remains out and the naughty step has been freshly vacated in anticipation.

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      10. The naughty step, now that’s step up from the box or well. Is the corner, next in punishment list? The word behave, seems to have an adverse effect.

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      11. What do you mean painful…..I think maybe reply with title of book, is still I moderation, Alexis ? I have quite a few replies from 2- 3 days ago still sitting in moderation, as well.

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      12. Haha yup, it’s still in moderation missy. HG is claiming to have lost it. He may be able to annoy me but he can’t gaslight me or confuse me or erode my self esteem. I’ll just find fun in whatever he does.

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      13. Though HG you are really annoying me by not posting my reply to missy !! But I’ll allow it – take the fuel from me and drink deep. You’ve earned it after all.

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      14. Of course you’re doing it deliberately. It’s not really annoying me though. Obviously I’d like missy to receive the reply intended for her. But it’s also making me laugh a lot, the thought of you sat at home getting a thrill from not posting it. Hahahahahha 🙂

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      15. I’m sure you can see how much I annoy my Mn and he’s clueless that I know what he is. With you, clearly, you know I know and I know you know. We both know, don’t we HG.

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      16. If he is that clueless, do you really think he is a Greater?
        With all that knowing I was waiting for Donald Rumsfeld to appear.

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      17. Hahhaha. I’ve debated this somewhat but yes he is greater. Or perhaps somewhere between mid range and greater. He is incredibly calculating, things are long and drawn out, he will plan and scheme and wait for as long as it takes. And some of what he does is very clever. He knows what he is and he’s practiced his skills. Some of them need a bit of work hahah but hey, no ones perfect. Well apart from me. Hahhaha

        He is clueless because I’m too damn good at playing him, not because he is not intelligent. well I’ve been taught by the best haven’t I HG !!

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      18. I am so glad that you arrived at the conclusion. As I wrote my response to you I jotted down in my book the following “Bet she answers that she is better than him and has an excellent teacher” Close enough.

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      19. That said. I also wouldn’t care if he did work out that I knew either. I’m often tempted to give a little hint to see if he works it out. I’m saving that one for now.

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  12. After that many times? We are volunteers. The only ones to whom we are victims are ourselves. It is like addiction. After becoming clean, for a number of times, it is a choice to use.

    That said, your kind are the ones who need the Hoover fuel. When we have broken our addiction, we are free, as long as we don’t succumb. That kinda, sorta maybe sounds like you are the victim, no? Apologies for being blunt. I’m waiting for my punishment…putting toothpicks in my eyes and making me watch a sappy love story would torture me…just saying. In all seriousness, your post is food for thought and someone who was a victim needs to read and think about it.

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    1. We revel in portraying ourselves as victims when it suits our purposes. We were once the victim because that is what created us but we reject that status in terms of the way we thereafter conduct ourselves.

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      1. I understand that you were the victim and I hate that with passion. I’m going to get myself in trouble. Just observing. It sounds like you consciously reject that that status. It stays below, though. Once someone endures a trauma of magnitude it never goes away. You say we criticize you. I’m going to guess that it is a trigger somehow. It puts your defense up and you strike out.

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  13. I am hoping upon reading the Exorcism book, I shall be more equipped then just my Bible and cross.
    The Hoover is timely for me, as Is your new book. My extension of gratitude is large, HG.

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  14. Question HG….God I’ve been bombarding you with them so much lately, sorry. But desperate times call for desperate measures. In one of my recent IM conversations with forever Narc, I made the comment why aren’t you busy skull @#$%ing one of your victims? He’s been using this term lately which he would not have said this term before as it is very harsh description of that act. And has been using the term in describing what he would like to do to me which he never would say it like that to me before. Do you have a reason why this is?
    And he then asked me after I asked the above question, Why are they victims? I said ok, would you feel better if I used the term volunteer? He changed the subject. Why would he ask that then avoid my response? At the end of the conversation he said you would be my favorite volunteer as history shows. Why does he say that do you think?

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    1. He is upping the ante in order to provoke a reaction from you for the purposes of fuel.
      He wanted to ascertain whether you think that you are a victim or whether you are a volunteer so he can then adjust his manipulations accordingly.

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    2. I have a feeling if my ex narc read all these posts he would say to me, “See all guys are like me, I’m normal, some are worse than me, but that’s just how guys are.”

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      1. CC,
        That’s not normal. It is only amongst men who degrade and devalue women. Which sadly as HG says are being conditioned to do everyday.

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  15. Yes I know. I have been able to test it in a very real physical sense. As I read HG’s words, and all the examples victims and survivors write, it never ceases to amaze me how they are copies of one another, drones, I might as well have spent 14 years with HG himself, or your ex narc, or hers, or his and so on and so on, they all say the same thing use the same tactics, and he would feel justified that his way is the majority and myself and all the others are the “delusional ones, wanting the impossible” what we want isn’t real he would say, I can just hear it….

    There are true people, men and women, they are just rare, and you know what… it just makes us the more special, now doesn’t it!

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  16. May I ask – I was triangulated between a narc couple but safely exited before things got worse. I really enjoyed the male friend’s company and tried to maintain that friendship but of course it didn’t go to plan because he kept hurting me.
    A friend I know well of his later showed me messages from his wife sent to the friend, that complained of her husband’s infidelity and said she wanted to die, she was so numb from the pain.
    I am wondering whether this was likely genuine or a lieutenant tactic to provoke some kind of reaction in me. I can’t think what that might have been.
    Or if it was real, how could a narc wife feel pain from his infidelity? Isn’t that part of their enjoyment?

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    1. If they are both narcissists, I suspect they did not know it or one did and had the other in his thrall. The friend may well be a lieutenant who has been commissioned to show you these messages to provoke a response. How did you establish that both members of the couple are narcissists?

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  17. The wife is a saccharine lower N, older, and provided a visa for a 3rd world upper MR who is an artist.

    You might diagnose this as a manipulation on his part but I don’t believe she is unaware… in front of me I have seen a lot of conflict between them and always a power imbalance in his favour and yet he needs her as a provider so that is their cycle. However I’m now not sure if the conflicts were a joint scheme to upset and make me feel pity, which worked.

    I’m questioning whether the messages as you’ve said were a set up.. but to me they do remind me of my mother’s outpours when she was distressed over my father’s interest in someone else.

    I’m interested in this topic because although it might not seem advantageous in power dynamics for them, I know an awful lot of narc couples and narc groups. I’ve seen some very unusual couplings, I believe, based on assets to share.

    As for your question recognising narcissism, TBH I knew they and the coterie were different but I thought it was stupidity and I pitied them. That was my huge mistake. They do look silly from just being totally clueless in social situations and from fighting each other over nothing and I step in as a translator due to my upbringing. I wish I never met them.

    Although I never had the word, the signs of an actor are obvious as they are always out of step in terms of timing (too fast or too slow), studying too much or oblivious to important things that happen because they’re self-absorbed. They also interpret others by repeating facts or actions and saying the outcome it would lead to, which reflects a calculating mind instead of a feeling one.

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