My Point of View


One of the most powerful (from my perspective) and troubling (from your perspective) is the fact that my kind and me appear to act without any regard to logic. We appear to delight in ensnaring people by pretending to be something that we are not even though it seems completely genuine. We cause people to fall completely in love with us and then apparently turn on them, lashing out at them and hurting them. Indeed, we seem to delight in causing pain and chaos to everyone around us and we show no concern at such conduct. We behave in such a hypocritical fashion, chastising you for doing something and then doing the very same thing ourselves. We say one thing and do so with utter conviction and then in the next breath say something completely contradictory yet seem not to realise what we just done. We act with impunity, taking at will and with no concern for what anybody else may suffer as a consequence of our actions. The list is long and worrisome. Trying to fathom out why we behave in this manner leaves you bewildered, exhausted, defeated and broken. This is all of course intentional. We behave in this manner in order to wear you down, provoke reactions from you and most of all so that you provide us with our precious fuel. Our apparent disregard for logic and reason causes massive consternation to you and your kind. This is because you are ruled by order and the need to understand. It is woven into your DNA and anything which deviates from this creates a significant problem for you. Our behaviour makes no sense to you for one simple reasons. You are looking at the way we behave through your world view. You are imposing your values and your outlook on what we do. Why should it be the case that your world view should be regarded as the only one? Why should the way you look at the world be considered as the correct way of doing so? When did you become the arbiter of all? This is the high-handed arrogance which proves the undoing of your kind. Oh you will wail to anyone who will listen at how monstrous you have been treated, how we are evil people and the spawn of Satan. You sit in so-called support forums on the internet decrying our behaviour, writing page after page about what has happened to you and how horrendous you have been treated. All about you isn’t it? Oh I can hear your howls of protest now, at how you are a good person and that you do not hurt anyone. Do you not? How then is it that you injure me with your failure to behave consistently. You call me for it yet you are just as guilty if in fact not more so. You promise me so much at the outset and then you change the way that you behave so you do not give me what you once did. I do not change. I shine and dazzle and soar, but you make it all change, why do you do it? This failure hurts me as you reduce my fuel and force me to punish you for it. You force me to seek it from other sources when I would much rather keep obtaining it from you. You call into question my abilities and criticise me notwithstanding just how that behaviour wounds me. You hold yourself our as caring and considerate yet you do me these injustices. You hide behind your mask of empathy, telling the world you are the good person, the caring person and the one that looks our others yet this is just a ruse in order to wound me and my kind after everything we have done.

Perhaps if you stopped looking at the world from your own perspective and looked at it from mine you would start to understand. You talk so often about showing compassion and your ability to put yourself in the place of other people. Why do you not do this with me? You tell me you love me. I read about how many of you declare you loved my kind and me in a way that went beyond anything you had shown before. Sometimes I wonder. If you loved us in the way you say that you do, then why can you not put yourself in our shoes and then understand what it is we have to deal with. If you did this, you would start to see that our behaviour is completely understandable. It makes absolute sense when viewed from our perspective and not yours. I see no reason why you should not try this and then you will have gained considerable insight into why we behave as we do and then, should you still deem what we do as unacceptable then you can at least understand it and take evasive action can’t you? You will not have to decry us to all who will listen whilst and I think it is only right that I make this point, you are not helping yourself by wallowing in this moaning and self-pity and surrounding yourself with others who behave in a similar fashion. Providing blow by blow accounts of what we do in order to elicit sympathy but then asking why does he do this and why does he do that, is not getting you the answer because you are asking the wrong people. Ask me instead and I will tell you; view the world through our eyes and everything will make sense. It all comes down to one small word; fuel. That is why we act as we do. That is why we do the things we do and say the things we say and once you comprehend that it is all about fuel you will be looking at the world through our eyes and finally it will all make sense. Go on try it. I dare you or would you rather sit and milk sympathy and never move forward? Don’t say I never gave you the chance.



  1. Simple answer: Why do we cut off your fuel? When a not so clever narcissist insists that you have NEVER done anything for them, NEVER gave them gifts and NEVER goes out of our way for them as I explained to the narcissist then NEVER say NEVER. There would be absolutely no point nor purpose in doing anything for anyone that acclaimed it never happened nor ever will. Therefore he gets nothing from me, nor any rich supply of fuel to boot. He states, I NEVER say thank you anymore, well you know since I was NEVER thanked, Mr Narcissist (my n) walk a mile in my moccasins! Plenty more fuel lines around for him to source. My fuel tank sprung a leak, I am all out! That brings me back to a flashcard event, when during the golden period deceptions I made a mistake, a serious mistake of asking how long did he think we would survive as a couple? His answer (flashcard) was that depends how much petrol I had in my tank! Cannot say he did not warn me, yet when he spoke in such manner the putridness of his negatives were felt just as you HG felt the comments with a tail-end of negativity from your mother. Differences in your kind and ours are not that difficult to understand, we chose to move through it with arrows to the heart sticking out everywhere and knives in our backs that neither hindered our recovery nor jeopardise our resilience to honour ourselves for the heart that we know well and will fight for, ours.

    Have any heard the story about the angry child? As we know, anger comes from fear. The young boy had issues and who knows what they were but the father noticed this. You cannot keep hitting your sisters and wrecking her things, said the father. You don’t understand Dad, said the boy, I just get so angry I don’t know what to do and it feels better when I hit my sister, or smash her things. The father returned from work the next afternoon with a brand new hammer and a cardboard box of large nails.

    He gave them to his son with the instructions that when he felt this anger he was to go out to the back fence mad of timber palings and drive nails into the fence with the hammer until the anger tired him.

    The son, did this for years and it did seem to deter his acting out in the home and his grades at school were improving as he knew he could get home every afternoon and pound away driving those nails into the fence for release.

    After the boy reached young adulthood, the father sat with him one day. The fence had nails driven in all over it with little uncovered without silver shiny heads. The father said, we are nearly out of space on that fence, do you know what the end of the hammer is? The claw and it used for removing nails, I will show you how. The father instructed the son to claw out the nails one by one when he was angry until all were removed. This took a lengthy amount of time. When it was achieved, the son told the father and said how horrible the fence looked with all the holes in it and even if painted the holes were too large to conceal.

    Quietly the father said this: Those are the holes that get placed in the hearts of people you lash out with your anger using your fists, your temper, every time you smash their personal things and when using your words to cause them harm.

  2. Also….i had many puzzle pieces early on and along the way….but i didn’t know i was putting together a puzzle…
    I had lots of correct instincts along the way…but bc of all the techniques like gaslighting and so many others simultaneously always swirling in from every angle… was very difficult to put that puzzle together….under the circumstances.
    But…im guessing….though many of you dont really get how i could find myself in this position……4 kids w a narc….and have said as much…..
    HG totally gets it. As that’s what he writes about and experiences.
    Probably that bloody_elemental too. I’m guessing. Chilling.

  3. This is one of the most important things that I have learned from you. I can now look at my relationship through her eyes and figure out why things happened the way they did. Not everything, but that’s why I’m not going anywhere. I still have lots to learn.
    I can see that what see wanted from the beginning is not at all what I thought.
    I can see how her mother contributed to what she has become today.
    I can see that what I was saying to her was taken as a criticism and that’s not what I was saying.
    I can see why she let me cry for hours.
    I can see why she wanted my constant attention.
    I can see how she needs the fuel to get through her day.
    I can finally see that when you say “I love you” it doesn’t mean the same as when I say it. I have read ” We only love your fuel ” many, many times and I hate it every time but it’s your perspective and I understand that now. It hurts so much to finally accept that. I thought she loved me.
    I would never have been able to say any of these without you HG.
    Thank you

  4. DC You had your child without pain meds? Well, they did it for thousands of years but why? Was this a choice of yours? I had a good Jewish doc who gave me my meds right away. Do not let the Princess suffer.
    At least he cut you in time but then again, you are so numb from what is going on that you wouldn’t feel this at all I would think. It makes my head hurt thinking about the whole process.
    But I also had a hard delivery (24 hours) with my oldest, induced and he would not come out. They had to get on top of me from both sides and push him out. I do have it on film. No, not the crotch shot.
    In the end they should have taken him C-section. He suffered. Delayed learning from lack of oxygen. But what a sweet person he is.

    1. Ah Oh, I chose not to take meds because I do not to well with pain medication and I refused to have an epidural… The labor pains were annoying but it really wasn’t that bad until it was already time to have her and the pushing alleviated it. I had to be induced with two methods for my daughter… While she was early she was taking her dear sweet time coming out. Yes I did not feel the ripping because I was pushing and the cut to complete was not felt either… I can assure you I felt them sewing me back up after everything was said and done, no topical anesthetics there either. Pain is my friend because I know it will end at some point regardless of the outcome. I’ve had good and bad outcomes from pain… I do like being rewarded with something good in the end but same thing applies…. Pain always ends.

      The mind is incredible, the power of thought or self suggestion is amazing and can even be inviting at times…

    2. For DC and NA. (It is such a long thread…you may never see this….i Couldn’t even figure out where exactly to put it… )
      Perhaps some of my comments were harsh …i don’t think them narcissicistic though. I just can’t understand ,especially with the knowledge you get here about narcs…. that anyone would ever knowingly put themselves in that position to not be loved or cared about genuinely. To only be an appliance. To have no value as a person truly. To be oppressed and stomped on . Belittled, demeaned, devalued. And made to look like you were the abuser in the end…. they are so cleverly evily brilliant . Rip your heart out and stomp on it….. then point the finger at you…and say everything true about him as if it’s you. That’s not fun. There is no peace in that.
      To smear you…when its not true…. to live through that.. horrible. I can not understand why anyone would contemplate ever going in that den of soul death.
      To answer your questions about why i had 4 kids w him..
      .i did NOT see it. That’s why all these articles are so interesting. How could i NOT have seen it? They are very very good at their craft. I am not an uneducated or foolish person…..but they the narcs….are that good. I simply trusted. I simply believed. I simply hoped… all in the wrong person.
      I had no idea till after i filed for divorce and was in counseling that my counselor clued me in… to what he probably was ..that was over 2 years ago. It has been quite the journey divorcing him, learning more, healing, trying to still deal with him and raise 4 kids. I also have a 5th kid. He’s 24. Single parenthood is a breeze compared to coparenting w a narc. No issues…we had a great time in life….he has achieved much bc I’m an awesome mom. Despite the narc dad circumstances w the 4 lil ones….they still be ok too…. bc of me. Kids are not stupid.
      I did however, always have an instinct about my ex/narc…. but i always gave him the benefit of the doubt. I didn’t know he was a pathological liar. I had no reason to think he was lying and doing everything he was doing…i did not realize people like him existed and moved amongst us…they were out there….but certainly i would recognize them if i saw 1….and that i could ever be caught up with one….never thought i could. I was too smart for that. I mean read all these articles in this blog….it makes sense now….how it all happened to me…. now…i know what to look for and im not so trusting.
      Then. … i thought i knew what i was doing….he fooled me and a bunch of people. Hard people to fool. And yet….he fooled them.
      I was going to divorce him at 6 months into the marriage….but he changed and got nice and then i got pregnant……and again and again and again. The niceness didn’t last….but i was caught up in the spinning and had picked up defense/ survival mechanisms i didn’t even realize i was implementing…like….do whatever he wants to tame the beast. I could not say no to him… HG wrote about. I just didn’t fully realize it and what was going on… that and soooo much of what he writes abt….that’s why i like to talk to him. It’s a crazy dynamic.
      Heres the quick synopsis…
      We married in nov 2005.
      Baby 1- 2007
      Baby 2-2008
      Baby 3-2009
      Baby 4-2011
      Filed for divorce 2014
      Divorce official 2015

      You see….it all happened very fast… was spinning….
      I tried to make sense, bring peace and order…… but that’s not how they operate..
      I finally realized…..something was not right… much of what he did was “not normal”
      Then i realized no matter what happened…..every step away from him was a step in the right direction. ..
      And here i am.

      1. I did offer in my previous post that you may not have had the label of Narc but you do admit that you had an instinct about your ex and that you almost divorced very soon after so at the very least it was a home in turmoil and so my question remains unanswered. Bringing children into that atmosphere seems frankly selfish and narcissistic. To have them because YOU want them regardless the circumstances. Also affirming to yourself that the 4small ones will be okay. At the very least they have been denied the “traditional” father. You are correct in saying that children are not stupid and I understand you need to believe your assertion that it will not affect them. I truly do hope for that but I believe you are fooling yourself. You need to tell yourself that just as the Narc tells himself that all is well and yet you do not believe him. To address your concern about me volunteering to enter this arena: I believe I have great value as a person. I am only belittled, demeaned, and devalued in the eyes of the Narc because as with everything else, they choose to believe that for their own needs whether its true or not to me. I feel empowered, altruistic, satisfied, and as you put it- cleverly evil and btilliant. Its hard for me to understand that others cant find their power especially after suffering abuse, but I do. I am in my mind no longer the victim I was as a child (btw- my mom thought we’d be ok too). When I start to have feelings rise up I dont likeI take them to a Narc battleground and I stand mine. Im glad you are stepping in the right direction (for you) and hope you continue to come here with an open mind. There is much to learn.

        Oh…….I graciously skipped over your comment that you ” couldnt figure out exactly where to put” your comment, attesting to my civility and the fact that I retain a sense of humour. Have a great day.

        1. I’m glad i appealed to your sense of humor ….im not incompetent just human.
          I never said my kids would not be affected..i said they would be ok regardless. For many reasons. I can only do the best i can.
          I did not knowingly bring my kids into an environment of turmoil. Life doesnt work that way. That’s the irony of all this. I thought we were happy. I thought i was happy…people thought we were happy…. sometimes you can think you are happy but you are not.
          If i knew…..i wouldve never dated, married, had kids..nothing w him. They trick you. You DONT know. I didn’t know. That’s why it’s confusing. To have an instinct or a puzzle piece…..isn’t the same as figuring out the puzzle and seeing the big picture….. now i know. It all makes sense. Never again.
          That’s what i was getting at w my comments that were just being honest. I didn’t know. Some of you DO know and choose to seek out such an evil person.
          I just don’t understand that.
          I never will.

          1. Give yourself some credit too. You had back-to-back pregnancies which is an all consuming thing in itself what with extreme fatigue early in pregnancy, hormones, nausea, medical exams, plus caretaking for 1 then 2 little babies /toddlers. Sorry, but if one thinks you’re supposed to be on top of covert red flags during this time span they should have 4 back-to-back pregnancies and then talk. Your focus is usually centered on your babies and your days / months blur together with feedings, diaper changes, doctor visits, possibly juggling work…
            There is a reason as HG has written some Narcs bind someone to them through pregnancy and having children. They value the children as extensions of themselves so even during the pregnancies it may be part of the golden period or a respite back to it.

          2. MLA Clarece-
            Yes yes yes….i appreciate your empathy! and beyond the babies and pregnancies, i also at the time had a teenager of mine and a pre teen step daughter of his….plus a business i owned. (And early on i was teaching High school too and taking graduate classes for a 2nd masters)
            And my teenager happened to also be a world class professional rock climber traveling all over the US , Canada, South America and Europe climbing and competing. And i would go with and bring my babies and my mom. I remember in 2009…i was trotting around Paris w a senior citizen, a teenager, a 2 year old, a 1 year old, and i was 7 months pregnant. And still running a business from France….
            That’s how you do it..

            Till they wear u down to absolutely nothing.

          3. Exactly! I get it! You’re a very hands on mother!
            I am slowly realizing my first husband of many years has many Narc tendencies and I’m watching him weave his web with his new wife and two babies a year apart and under the age of 2. She is enamored to have the family life she always wanted and too exhausted with a professional school admin job, taking care of the babies and running circles around him to realize a single thing yet. Everything is rosy.
            I’m actually quite lucky she is a very kind, loving person and very good as a stepmom to my daughter. I have no issues there. But she runs circles around him whereas I had stopped once we had our daughter.
            It is a monumental decision to split apart a family and it weighs huge and can prolong if you are trying to hold on for the kids sake.

          4. In an earlier post FL11 commented to DragonCreeper : “Thats messed up….do you hear yourself?

            Then followed up with a post in which she wrote:
            ” I was going to divorce him 6 months into the marriage but he changed and got nice. But the niceness didnt last”. ( at least 4 times??!! And it never occurred maybe I should stop having babies with him??!!)

            Followed by:
            “i did not knowingly bring my kids into an environment of turmoil. I thought we were happy”. (Umm……see above)

            Clearly my mistake.

            I stated previously that my mother did this exact thing ( 4 chikdren and some miscarriages) and I cant wrap my head around a child under 10 being able to figure out that it was wrong but not an adult intelligent woman. I leave this subject still feeling that the womans selfish drive to bear children keeps her in denial and blind to the signs and not the almighty power of the Narc. And isnt that a good thing? Im saying that we have powers greater than the Narc ( the drive to bear children standing in the way of nothing for one), but we choose when Its convenient to use them and when its convenient to be a victim. We have some responsibility.

        2. NA…..
          This post below from HG….that was me….that’s why I’m here. That’s why i talk with him. We are all learning. For different reasons.

          ((((Any Excuse
          by HG Tudor

          The fact for so long you had no idea what you were dealing with resulted in you engaging in an anticipated behaviour. This behaviour is one which we regularly rely on in order to keep you in the dark. I have made mention of the various traits which we look for in those who make the most useful victims to us. One of those traits concerns your ability to try to find the good in everyone and everything. This is a typical empathic trait and along with all of the others which you possess causes you to flare up on our radar when we are seeking an excellent primary source. Your desire to see good means that it obscures your ability to see the bad or perhaps more accurately, to accept the bad. This is something we desire because it prevents you from truly recognising what it is that is happening to you once your devaluation has begun. We of course love to operate from a position of plausible deniability, we court ambiguity since we enjoy and need to twist and turn in order to achieve what we want. If you saw everything as stark and clear as I now describe our machinations to you, you would be more inclined to escape us and bring about that unwelcome cessation of our primary source of fuel. It would also make it harder to apply those hoovers when we wish to return you to the fold and have you engage in our cyclical endeavours once again. We present you with the truth of what we are on a repeated basis but although we offer it up in front of you, we never let you see it clearly. We draw a veil across certain elements, apply a smoke screen, obscure some parts and distort others. The reality is there before you. It is evident and plain but because of the way in which we purposefully manipulate you, you are unable to see it. It is akin to us pointing out a ship on the horizon. It is obvious for us to see but when we hand you a telescope to gain a better look at this vessel, the lens has been smeared with something which distorts the view, or we place our finger over part of the lens blocking your view. ))))

      2. Findinglife11 I commend you. Yes, they are that good.
        You rock and you will only get stronger.
        I, on the other hand had a very brief encounter with a narc as I am not narc friendly. My narc said he brought a bat to the battle and I bring a cannon.
        I am here for the entertainment.
        No, I am not a Narc, I love animals.

      3. FL11,
        I understand where you are coming from. All I am saying is to be considerate of what you are saying others. You do not have to agree with what we like, even if it seems irrational BUT you should be respectful. I do NOT think that you are “crazy” for wanting to NEVER be in a relationship with a narc ever again. We all have our own desires and needs. I do not think lowly of myself, I do NOT need a narcissist to be happy. I am happy on my own and fulfill my needs very well, I just happen to know the kind of trouble I like. I guess you could compare it to an addiction… everyone has an addiction rather it is shopping, Starbucks coffee every morning, your daily workout routine or that daily glass of wine. You just feel incomplete without it. I suppose you could say I enjoy the very emotionally charged relationship between myself and the narcissist. You do not know my story BUT if my narcissist ex was not physically abusive I would have stayed with him until he decided to discard me, I would have fought to keep him and then who knows. I am willing to lose as long as I tried. I am okay with moving on, I am not lacking the means to continue with my happy and very entertaining life… I am my own movie and book and as I have said before, if I find the right match he can get on my ride and make it just as fun… a joint effort. (If he is a narcissist, he will just think it is all him) ;)

        The difference between you and me is this:

        “that anyone would ever knowingly put themselves in that position to not be loved or cared about genuinely. To only be an appliance. To have no value as a person truly. To be oppressed and stomped on . Belittled, demeaned, devalued. And made to look like you were the abuser in the end…. they are so cleverly evily brilliant . Rip your heart out and stomp on it….. then point the finger at you…and say everything true about him as if it’s you. That’s not fun. There is no peace in that.”

        I DO NOT care what anyone says about me in the sense that it would actually bring me down. You can call me what you want, yes I will argue back BUT it will not affect me emotionally because I know who I am and what I have to offer. I suppose I am over confident and I really don’t care if anyone thinks less of me, even if it is the man I love. Because if he holds my heart, he knows the truth… regardless if he wants to lie about it. AND that brings me to love… yes I love, I will give my entire being for love. I do NOT need to hear the word love, I only want to FEEL like I am loved. Do they have to actually love? NO, but narcissists give the feeling of love in order to receive the fuel (LOVE) we give in return. It is the SAME thing only we give it unconditionally (and that is to an extent as well). Can you see love? I don’t, it is a feeling… I feel it. There are a lot of messed up things that narcissists do and there are also a lot of sweet things they do, more so than any regular relationship. I AM all I need… except I do love a mans touch. I cannot provide that to myself (well I can but I have desires not everyone can fill). I need the Yin to my Yang… but again, I am fine all by myself…

        Please understand that we are not all the same, that is what makes all of us so great. I just like a fucked up dynamic, I was created for it… I don’t know if by fault or just all of the crap I have been through. I am not weak, I am not crazy, I have never been diagnosed with any mental illnesses and I have never wanted to die. I don’t know what to tell you other than to embrace who you are, help those who are crying out and do not understand and laugh with those of us who are “off our rockers for narcs” ;).

        Welcome to HG’s blog and please do not take anything wrong… everyone is welcome to play along and everyone has their own uniqueness to contribute. We are all learning! <3

        1. DC…
          Ty for your comment…
          Perhaps…i was a bit off the cuff w my raw reactive comment…(hmm ….thats why he “loved” me..”loved”….used loosely mind you… ;) )
          I think it’s easy to forget at 1st that there are people behind the comments….and my opinion is so strong bc of my experience… and conclusion…and it seems so obvious… i can’t believe the world doesn’t see it….especially in here of all places….and therefore heed to action…. intense no contact based on the unique knowledge learned here… knowledge is power…
          Which leads me to think that maybe your experience was perhaps w a lesser narcissist. According to how HG categorizes them…if he’s physically abusive…that could be the case…. we all like a “bad boy”….some excitement….the thrill…. im not looking to be with a boring person.
          But….perhaps if your experience was w a greater narcissist….you might feel different…. they take it to a different level entirely. You think you are strong w them. You think you are confident…you think you can handle them…..
          You think wrong.
          They will always win. Always.
          You will be a flattened mess of nothing on the floor… and they are not done with you…
          Maybe you can be strong and confident w a mid or lesser…. but not with a greater….
          Everyone has a vulnerable place esp an empath…. the greater finds it …all of them… and exploits it…knife in your heart and twists it..while saying he loves you. its not just lying about you….it’s causing you to have a criminal record for what they did…. they affect you and your life, your career and your relationships way beyond anything the lesser or mid can do….
          To win with the greaters for sure …i believe HG is right in his no contact advice.

          1. I understand what you are saying FL11, you cannot assume that everyone has only dealt with a lesser because they are not flat on the floor dying or whatever you are saying… you are here right?
            I was married to a narcissist before my last, I was with him for 12 years. I left, I do not know the category or level of any of the ones I was with. The one before him, when I was in high school… he was a lesser and an idiot. I left all of them. They all stalked me, this last one has been the absolute worst in every way possible. He abused me in every way possible but I loved him the most and I would have stayed with him except he couldn’t control his physical abuse. The others had it in them (beat others) but never abused me physically. You just do not know everyone’s story. It is okay to be angry, it is okay to wonder why people like it or stay with them or whatever… it is not okay to call people names or make snide remarks because of it. I will call you out every time… make no mistake. I might be nice but you cannot be rude and think I won’t say anything.
            To think I never suffered is wrong, I have suffered in ways you will never know or understand but at the same time I am resilient. I am resilient because I know myself, I am resilient because I know life goes on, I am resilient because I can and I will. If you do not understand that then maybe you need to find yourself, know yourself and value yourself a little more.

            My point is we are all different and you need to understand and respect that.

          2. DC
            Quite frankly i do not understand your need to call me out on my opinion.
            True, I know i do not know your story…. i do not believe im being disrespectful…
            I can appreciate everyone has their own story …. i can emphasize…
            I was just making suggestions based on information you told …. in comparison w HG info. Which i find to be incredibly credible and accurate.
            Of course i don’t know the depth of the level of hurt you have endured…nor does anyone truly know mine..
            It is truly a sea of personal pain…. which brings me back to the original thought pattern which got me into trouble in the 1st place…. w such an incredible level of pain felt….at the hands of a narcissistuc individual…..why would anyone want that in their life and seek it out? It makes perfect sense to me. Clearly not to all. To each his own. I can respect it….though i will never understand it.

    3. NA
      It seems to me you keep wanting to equate your experience w mine. While they may have similarities…..they are not the same.
      As I’ve stated multiple times. I didn’t know. And HG writings support that….and how that can happen. There was no responsibility on my part…
      I did not do anything. That’s the reality.
      Im sorry for your experience.
      If u look at any situation in life…..there are multiple situations why a kid should not be born into a situation….but they are…and it’s for a reason…the kid has a higher purpose.
      We all have purpose
      Equally ..circumstances can change. .a kid can be born into the best of circumstances. . And things change ..someone dies… there is some can’t control life’s circumstances….
      It is not selfish to want kids despite your environment. And with mine. ..i wasnt to the point yet where i saw my situation for what it was…
      I didn’t know i was bringing them into a hostile horrible environment. I wasnt there yet. I got there… and the kids are happy to have us divorced…they admit its less tense for them….and more stable and safe. Nothing is perfect not in any family .. even “normal” ones. But i do an excellent job as a mama.
      And i love it.
      I shower them w love, affection and balance. Its not always easy…. but it’s working out. Never will i regret having them. They are wonderful.

      1. I never “equate” a situation as my higher power apparently was to be more astute and have more intelligence at 10 than intelligent women of child bearing age. Indeed your older child (24?) if he lived with you may have made some observations and cared to share but I doubt he would knowing it might bring you pain and guilt.. I gave my situation to explain WHY I wanted to know and thought you to be in the best position to address it. It would have been easier I think if you just replied in the first post that you take no responsibility. Instead you keep trying to explain why you are absolve of any and cite HGs post as proof. He has written others also that show how our fantasies, denial and excuses for the situation (our share of the responsibility) allows them to continue what they do. I commend you sincerely for removing yourself and your children sincerely and would never suggest that you regret having them. I can see by your defensiveness that you love and want to protect them. I would hope that others who may be in the situation that you found yourself in at the time may read your posts and might stop to think that if things do not seem “right” and they have already thought to leave, that they should think long and hard first before having more children with him. What started all this was your response to DragonCreeper in an earlier post. You said: thats messed up-do you hear yourself? And I was thinking that about your posts. But instead of just throwing out a line like that I thought better to try to understand your reasoning and now i have it.

        You take no responsibility.

        1. Absolutely right. She accepts no responsibility… that is a narcissistic attitude and I maintain my grounding.

          You have spoken very well in regards to what I obviously couldn’t get out of my mouth. Also, I commend you on your choices, you took your situation and applied it to your future. This is what we are SUPPOSED to do, live and learn!

          Thank you NarcAngel! <3

          I will not be wasting my time with FL11 any longer… you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

          1. Amen Sista. Easier to be a victim and stay that way I guess for some. THATS what I cant get MY head around. Oh look! A piece of dust floating by…………lol moving on……….

          2. That’s crazy…. i have been victimized….but trust me..I’m not a victim. I can’t even believe I’m defending. Insane.
            Of all places….u would think you would understand…
            All because i asked if she could hear herself. And i still stand by that sentiment….even if i could’ve said it more sensitively…..
            My original shock remains….
            Why would anyone knowingly want a relationship w a narcissist. Especially after all you learn in here as to who they are. No thank you.

          3. Wow. Live and learn. That’s what i did. And im continuing to do both still. I learned to stay away from such people. The origin of all this was because people that i would’ve thought learned – didn’t.

        2. NA. Yep that’s right. Had no idea. As soon as i started to figure it out….I got the heck outta there….
          And that’s why i said what i said to DC …. albeit it was a bit of a raw off the cuff emotion…. even if it was just honest….that clearly and perhaps rightly so set off warning bells admonishing me to say it w a little more grace. I can do that…. sometimes you forget the words in this virtual world represent a person. And of course….all people deserve respect. I can respect that.

        3. And by the way…. as I’m figuring out the ins and outs of this blog….i have now discovered a more efficient way to reply. Previous to this discovery, it was very messy and discombobulated. I was just reading comments through my email and hitting comment there…..Which took me to the blog site via chrome.
          Not as efficient of a platform to find or leave comments.
          I somehow got to the site where it appears comments at least are more organized and easier to find, read and reply back.

    1. Someone who is loyal to us and carries out acts on our behalf.

      Sociopaths and psychopaths are narcissists but not all narcissists are sociopathic or psychopathic

          1. Hi French Toast!
            Did someone diagnose you as sociopathic or did you identify characteristics that you felt you also showed on your own? If you identified them on your own, what traits do you find you have? I am asking out of curiosity as I have met some folks that have traits of it but are not full blown and wondering maybe this is what you mean? If it is too much to ask for details, I totally respect it and it is OK if you do not wish to share. I am truly curious.

            Also, have you (French Toast and HG) read any good books on sociopathy outside of the ones here for purchase? I read the Sociopath Next Door prior to coming here.

      1. What. In. The. Actual. Eff.

        The proper term/diagnosis is anti-social personality disorder. This is where the “terms” sociopath and psychopath fall.

        And, for what it is worth, you cannot be a “sociopath” or “psychopath” if narcissism is not present as part of the diagnosis. Narcissism and anti-social personality disorder together like peanut butter and jam.

        As stated by HG and every medical professional in the world worth their salt, “Sociopaths and psychopaths are narcissists but not all narcissists are sociopathic or psychopathic.”

        Are you diagnosed or is this a self-diagnosis?

  5. All too familiar….as if it was perfectly scripted.

    I can close my eyes and hear the same words exchanged. I am logical and tried for YEARS to just understand because then I had a half a shot at turning it around. NOPE. You cannot turn it around. You never ever will. And once you realize the hard reality that these people are incapable of change, there’s nothing to do but leave them and forego all that you thought was true.

    And while you’re breakup may be so tragic, what’s more tragic is the narcissist who cannot even help themselves because they lack self-awareness. You see, they do not get it and frankly, never will.

      1. Because I am cognitively superior, I was alerted to what I am and realised that person was right, thus I took the view that understanding what I am and understanding those around me would ensure that I functioned far more effectively. The good doctors have added to this more recently.

  6. Hmm. I share tmi HG? ;)

    On that note…. when people do share their sagas….does it make u want to meet or congratulate the narc in the story? Maybe envy or pick up a new tactic from what u hear?
    Do you learn anything from the empath ? Or is it just blah bah blah blah… ?

    1. Not at all, I have no interest in congratulating another narcissist and as for a new tactic, I don’t learn from them anymore.

      I do learn from empaths though.

          1. Curious if by hearing our stories and interactions here from our perspective, has it made you reflect on your own past interactions and see them in a new light?
            For example, your past girlfriend, Karen, have you seen a different perspective emerge from a past fight or exchange that you realize now wasn’t meant to wound you, only understand you.
            I guess I’m asking, what are your “aha” moments here with us, if any?

          2. I have realised that many things that were done were not intended to wound me but the issue remained that notwithstanding that knowledge I still felt wounded by what was done or not done. I think one aha moment appertained to the realisation that other people expect relationships to settle into a less exciting, deep-seated kind of ‘love’ and see nothing wrong with that and how I see that as treachery on their part because their fuel changes in terms of output and potency.

          3. That is definitely growth. We also do miss those early fireworks but I guess also a real sense of security, loyalty, valuing commitment, etc are virtuous traits to uphold in our eyes. Thus feeling equally let down.
            Proud of you for acknowledging that!!

          4. You beat me to the question MLA Clairece, so thank you for asking this question and HG, thank you for the honest answer.

            This is exactly what I was hoping you would say.

          1. I already gave you my wood burning kit?!? Loved the portrait you made of the Queen…**flings hair, doing pageant wave**

  7. Chilling, yet true and honest work by HG.

    When I first read this article without some practical relations for comparison, it didn’t even make sense. For other empaths who venture into a “What Just Happened in This Relationship” and read this article, the first reaction is to say: “Surely not”. Denial. This is the first stage of the “Grieving Process” if you will. The second is anger. The third is grief..and the fourth is acceptance. For me at least, they do not follow a linear structure, but I think it’s important for others who stumble here to realize the basic stages.

    Unfortunately, HG’s point of view is entirely accurate. Naturally, I do believe that two people can influence each other for a time, but the Narcissist point of view will always revolve around a constructed version of self that even the definition of giving is taking.

    In wisdom and hope, in some cases, too much giving is equally as destructive as too much taking (my opinion) and empaths should take the time to write their own point of view and think through it – more specifically, if you have a child and give and give, that child may not learn the value of earning. Therefore, giving could be said to be harmful. Similarly if you have a parent who takes and takes, that child may learn to give too much. No one really evaluates givers because most people will take even that are not Narcissist’s on a spectrum personality. However, it should be noted that both tendencies can have destructive outcomes in the end. The real question is what is your point of view and break it down to where you can represent that to yourself.

    In HG’s case, I often feel angered by Matrinarc, but at a certain point, we all have to learn to forgive and move forward and choose to either be a beacon of hope for understanding or a victim of our own abuses. I personally recommend the former where you forgive your abuser and move forward with your life because acceptance is forgiveness and also being true to yourself and your objectives as well. We all have certain things that matter to one another.

    A good tidbit of advice for other empaths out there is to think to oneself: “Am I being mirrored?” If you can catch that – as in – this great guy/girl likes all your music, interests, activities – is it too good to be true? That is the KEY right there.

    1. We get a lot of flack for being illogical and irrational (from empaths or “normals”) but when you look at the world through our eyes, you see that the way we operate is, in all actuality, incredibly logical, rational and of course, highly methodical.

      I view empaths as being highly irrational and illogical because they allow themselves to be fuelled and governed by emotion AND they often think with their hearts instead of their heads. Clearly, if you are lucky (unlucky???) enough to be ensnared by one of our kind, this should be a massive warning sign NOT to trust your heart or your emotions because it is allowing your heart and your emotions to govern your world that makes it possible for us to invade, infect and conquer.

      I cannot wrap my head around what you are saying above Sarah.

      “Forgive your abuser and move forward with your life because acceptance is forgiveness and also being true to yourself and your objectives as well.”

      I would like to know why you think HG should forgive his mother and what, pray tell, he would stand to gain from that forgiveness? Peace of mind? Closure? What?

      This is one of the many things I do not understand about your kind, Sarah, this idea that forgiveness makes everything better.

      Revenge is so much sweeter than forgiveness could ever be.

      “I forgive you” or “I am going to spend the rest of my days ensuring you get what you deserve.” I know which one I would pick.

      1. BE… Just like your kind needs what we have, some of us need what your kind offers.
        Logical, illogical, irrational and what is really rational? I am right, you are right. You are the yin to my yang… The dark to my light…
        It works, even if it doesn’t… I’m not the only one who will not change regardless of what we are shown… and you will always need us. 💜

      2. I absolutely agree that some feed off and need what we have to offer. I have met many like you. There are many who keep coming back to me for more and more and more, even though they know it will not end well for them.

        We may always need you, but we can always depend on your kind to provide us with what we want. So either way, we win.

      3. I hope you are calling that a joint effort of “we win”… In my case, we both win.
        If I leave I never go back, I’m a live for the future type of gal… Next!

        There are a lot of things I’m figuring out about myself here and also my real life… I’m not looking for a fairy tale but I am not interested in the mundane. I like to be challenged, I like to conquer and be conquered but I want it often. My feelings can be tattered and torn but I’ll never forget who I am… If I am taken to the deep dark pit of dispare, I know how to crawl out with only minor injuries. Maybe I’m playing with fire but I am the fire starter and I am also the oxygen.

      4. I meant “we” as in me and my kind.

        You are a bit of a rare breed and I find this interesting. You know what you are dealing with, you know the possible outcome and yet, it seems to be something you embrace and are accepting of. I can admit that I respect that.

        That being said, you must understand that I operate in a realm where there is only one winner and that winner is me. I always come out on top. I always come out ahead. Even when something appears to be a win-win, I always have the upper hand. The deck is always stacked more in my favour than in anyone else’s. I make sure of that.

        There is no such thing as win-win. The illusion may be given, but it does not really exist.

        The depths of darkness and despair are deeper and darker depending on who you are entangled with, DC.

      5. I understand what you are saying and I get it, I can always step to the side and allow you your win. I do not mind the defeat… I accept it but I will rise and win in other ways. I do not seek revenge, I and I never want to cause someone else pain… I take it with me and move on.

        I do NOT agree with everything y’all do but there are a lot of qualities I admire… some qualities I will never posses because I cannot bring myself to behave that way. There are some actions that make me mad and I hate to have to be the one to sweep them under the rug. I think you understand what I am getting at here.

        I do realize that one day I might entangle with the wrong one, emotionally and mentally I am too strong to break, at least I think I am, there for I am… the only way I will go down is if I am crossing paths with a psychopath. That could happen regardless if I took that challenge or not.

        I guess you could say that potential partners are like rides in an amusement park…

        There are the bland, boring, sit-down roller coasters that only seem to go up and down and the ride is over – regular potentials. (blah, no interest and I did get on the ride)


        Then you have the large roller coasters that strap you in standing up or laying forwards – they have loops, sharp turns and enormous drops… but that isn’t all they also go in reverse. The thrill, the speed, the not knowing… this is what I will choose, this is what I will seek, this is what will thrill me and keep my interest. – Your kind.

          1. No you don’t FL11, you have 4 CHILDREN, 4!!! Not 1 but 4 with a narcissist whom you will have contact with the REST OF YOUR LIFE. AND to top it off you are putting those of us down who are HONEST about our feelings towards narcs and then turning around and telling Grand Master Narcissist (HG) that you are enjoying talking to him. Stop the BS, the facade and be honest with yourself honey. You will have a much more fun time here! ;)

            I like the pain, it makes me feel like I am alive to go through the spectrum of feelings. I feel them all and I do it with passion. The drama is not fun but with my exN it was between the two of us and the make up was way better than the drama…. kind of like childbirth with no anesthesia… it hurts, you have the baby and you forget about the pain…

          2. Yes, 18hrs of labor and if we want to get technical, with an episiotomy as well. That’s nothing, kidney stones are the only thing that has ever taken me down! :)

          3. Mine was, and I have only had one, BUT it was tearing my urethra. Very, very painful. It took them three types of drugs to subside the pain… But it only took me out for 5 days (they kept me in the hospital), I was back to playing football the day after I was released! :D

          4. Omg HG you just made me laugh so loud I scared the dog! I pictured you leaning forward with rapt attention, your excitement palpable at the prospect of DCs pain threshold being able to withstand birth without pain relief. Impeccable comedic timing-intended or not. Thanks for the laugh.

          5. Glad you addressed that DC. I dont know if it was meant to be but It did seem a bit judgy. I asked FL11 in another post if she could shed some light on continuing to have 4 children with her N as my mother did exactly that and even as a small child i couldnt understand it. No response so far. I made sure that I would have no children of my own. I had no point of reference for parenting, view children as all consuming (even though I can appreciate them in some regard and would never harm one), and could never expose them to the environment I grew up in, not to mention that they would be denied grandparents, one uncle,…..well you get the picture. And yet I cannot count the number of times that I have been called selfish for NOT having them. I understand your feeling of being alive around Ns DC. Makes perfect sense to me. Hey its no trip to Florida or wherever fun travelling people go lol but they make my pulse quicken none the less. To each their own. Thats why this blog is so great- we learn things from one another even if we cannot accept or adopt them for our own.

          6. I am happy to address anyone who needs to come back down to the ground. We are not here to put anyone down for their desires whether right or wrong. This is a neutral zone where narcs and empaths can play! (Oh the normals too) :)

            I see nothing wrong with anyone not wanting to have children, I absolutely respect your choice! I never wanted one and I have one who is about to be 18… I wouldn’t change having her for the world though! I finally put an end to having children years ago… ;) I told my daughter I am okay if she never wants to have children, I do not have any desire to be a grandparent either. I like the aunt roll, take the nieces and nephews out for a day of fun and then take them back to mom and dad!

            I do love the diversity and even the debating from time to time, we become a community and it is nice to see the support where needed and a little fun too! ;)

      6. Hi B.E.,

        Your points are understandable and your feelings are valid, especially given the horrors his mother has committed. I too feel anger when I hear about HG’s mother and all those abusive parents out there like this.

        I cannot speak for Sarah on the forgiveness, only my perspective.

        I personally do not forgive to let someone off the hook, as that act implies I agree with their treatment/behavior. I “let go” of the need for revenge and leave (or draw firm boundaries) so I heal. I see seeking revenge as something that would ultimately hurt me. To me, it is like letting go of shards of glass when a vase smashes rather than grasp with all my might to the pieces in anger that the vase broke and cut my hands. Forgiveness is for me, not the other person. it allows me to release pain that is stuck to the situation like an intense glue. As one friend of mine put it, “forgiveness is a selfish act.”

        And, this is just me. It gives me peace.

        And, first, when one has been mistreated/harmed, one has to first work through all the emotions from this, including deep anger before forgiveness can begin.

      7. Thank you for the explanation Indy.

        I know it makes sense from your perspective and in this arena, I am able to respect that.

        I take the rage and fury and turn it into something tangible. For me, forgiveness is intangible.

      8. Hello BE. In most instances, revenge just isn’t something that we benefit from. It generally creates more problems, anxiety and pain. If we succeeded in our revenge we would most likely feel guilt. We don’t receive fuel from exerting our energy this way, but rather the opposite as our energy depletes. Forgiveness allows us to permanently release negative feelings, move on and restore. In a way it’s similar to how your kind moves on to a new IP when no longer receiving sufficient fuel, except we completely detach. The situation, emotion or whatever it may be no longer serves us (often never did) and we move on to something that does. I agree with you, though, that we are irrational. We can be easily blinded by our emotions and it isn’t always easy for us to see warning signs, let alone use them to our benefit. Hope this was helpful!

        1. So then should your name then be the Forgiver and not The Punisher? I tease. Im just jealous I didnt come up with that name (T.P). Mine suits me though.

      9. Hi Dragoncreeper. I love everything you said! Yes we need them too and there is a yin yang balance between us.
        Like you, I never go back. Even though I don’t leave based on my own decision, I don’t return. I can tolerate a lot of pain, yet I also heal quickly.
        The need for them never goes away though. I’m excited to embark on new adventures. There is so much new narc fuel out there, why go back to the old? Onward and upward 😊
        I’ve learned from Mr. Tudor that the Greaters normally congregate at more exclusive locations. So I just joined a high end fitness club. Lets see what I can rustle up there 😉

        1. Love! I do like that we both do have similar feelings in regards to narcs.
          You are naughty girl…
          I will NOT seek anyone out.
          I will take whatever comes my way and choose if I want to play or not. I am not looking for anyone or any narcissist but I need someone who is like me and can keep me interested… that man, narc or not, will have my total attention and admiration.

      10. Love, you do realize that in dealing with a Greater, you are dealing with a different machine entirely?

        I must admit I am slightly confused by some of your musings here on the blog (not a criticism per se, just an observation really).

        In one breath, you tell me you realize you are not made for my kind (I am not much different from HG save for a few minor details – I am not saying I am as Great as he is, but that I am not much different) and then in another, you are saying you are on the hunt for a Greater at your gym.

        I wish you nothing but the best in your quest – if a Greater is what you seek, I hope you get exactly what it is you think you are looking for.

        And remember that, unlike a vampire, a Greater’s invitation cannot be rescinded once he or she is invited in.

      11. Agreed BE. I pick revenge. Forgiveness to me means giving up and is unforgivable. Having said that and being the twisted creature I am, the empath part of me wishes not to harm those vulnerable, while the vindictive Bitch and tortured child in me wishes to lash out and lay it at someones feet. I choose Narcs because frankly they can take it. I know their mindset will only allow them to believe they are the victor and thats fine. Sure I provide them fuel while I am playing my games with them but I also benefit by allowing my Bitch and child to have a voice with less collateral damage. The picture in my minds eye is always of 2 dragons spewing fire at one another. I am not lessened by it nor are they.

        1. That seems like a lot of work…..
          I can’t believe a person would choose to live like that…. i am such a simple person….just travel and have fun, hang w family and friends. I cannot believe i made the colossal mistake to accidentally marry a narc and have 4 kids w him.
          I would never choose it. I prefer to run so fast and far away….and never look back. But these 4 precious angels…
          Keep me entangled w his evil web…. even though i divorced him.
          My life was soooo good before i met him…..i thought it would just be better w him….a naive innocent notion of love….
          I simply believed all his lies and the facade…..
          And im rewarded w a nightmare life.
          I would never ever choose this…. i can’t fathom why someone would.

          1. I am relatively new here so I feel I have to preface a lot by saying: I ask because I want to understand and this is not a criticism…….

            FL11 you say it seems like a lot of work and that you cant believe people would choose to live like that. I have a hard time understanding that you chose to continue on with your narc long enough to have 4 children with him. Surely you knew what he was before child 2,3, and 4 if not 1? At the very least if you did not have the label of narc you knew he was not the man you first envisioned as the Father of your children. My mother did the same thing and I watched this as a small child wondering why she would continue to provide him victims and witnesses. I have asked her many times but she will not provide an answer. I have always imagined that she selfishly wanted some comfort (in us) for herself and that we were also a buffer as I cant imagine any other reason but perhaps that is not the case. Can you shed any light here?

      12. Clarece, my sweet, in a way yes, it can be. That is providing No Contact can be maintained. No one who has tried No Contact with me has been able to maintain it for very long thus far.

        There is also no shortage of fresh and willing targets, so even though No Contact wounds, it is not a silver bullet that kills. We survive and we move forward onto juicier targets.

      13. Hello B_E and the rest of the ladies. Yes , after reading your great description of what it takes to be ‘ the one’, I realized I am Not it. I could never be that person. However, that still doesn’t take the need away. So what would I be doing at an exclusive gym? I’d observe and have fun. I wouldn’t take anybody home. I’m still very timid and shell shocked. I like to see an actual Greater up close and personal. With the information Mr. Tudor has provided, I would like to be able to recognize and identify them in real life, not just in theory.
        Lol @ rescind their invitation. Very true. For now, I will be cautious and just observe. No talking to strangers.
        Btw, B_E you are very sweet for looking out for me and I’m giving you a big virtual hug (hopefully you like hugs) ❤