The Crying Game – Part Four



The production of tears and the emotion associated with such production has always been a source of fascination for me. I have shared with you my experiences and observations concerning pain, upset, pride and joy. The final part of this quartet concerns another occasion when the tears begin to flow. Just in the same way that I first witnessed and felt the power that I obtained from causing someone to shed tears of joy when I was at university, it was at this ancient seat of learning that I found another way of causing those tears to fall.

     A later girlfriend who arose, after Trish (from Part Three) fell by the wayside, was Anita. A vivacious young lady, with long blonde hair, bright in outlook and intelligence and with an excellent sense of humour we had a rip-roaring time together for some seven months or so and then came the summer. We both returned to the places where we lived, about a hundred and fifty miles apart so not a huge journey even on this small island. Anita had taken a job and the hours varied considerably from week to week so that I did not hear from her as often as I wanted. This concerned me and coincided with an interest in a close friend who I had known from sixth form called Lucy who was also at university and had also returned to our home town for the summer. We began to spend quite a lot of time together and I found that her attention to me put into sharp focus the less attentive approach from Anita. I knew she was busy with the summer job that she had taken but despite this knowledge, I resented her failure to keep in touch with me as often as she had promised at the end of the academic year. When she did telephone I was monosyllabic with my answers and when I decided I did want to talk I began to tell her about all the things that Lucy and I were doing together. The walks through the countryside, the book we planned to write together, the discussions about our forthcoming careers, going swimming, going boating and so on. I knew that Anita was trying to hide any concerns about this sudden and seemingly intense friendship which had sprung up with Lucy, but she could not mask the disappointment that showed in her voice when I launched into a lengthy monologue about my day with Lucy. I found the sensation of power which arose when I talked about Lucy and when Anita tried to sound interested but the nervousness in her voice betrayed her and showed she was worried by this burgeoning friendship. Good. So she should be nervous. She should have been more attentive and been a good girlfriend. Nothing physical had happened between Lucy and I but that was just a question of time. In fact, I was pleased that nothing had happened in that regard because I could maintain that my relationship with Lucy was indeed one of friendship and it provided me with the moral high ground to cast aspersions and denigrate Anita if she tried to suggest there was anything untoward occurring.

This situation continued and each time we spoke I could tell Anita was concerned and was maintaining a brave front. In one telephone conversation she commented,

“I know you spend a lot of time with Lucy, HG, but that does not bother me at all.”

There was something new when she said this though. A defiance. I did not take kindly to that. I noticed that the usual powerful sensations that I felt during this telephone conversation were absent.

I decided that I would not take any calls from Anita after that. I would refuse to emerge from my room as my father shouted up to me that Anita was wanting to talk to me. I would hear him making excuses on my behalf, that I was asleep, or I had gone out and he had not realised. As this silent treatment extended into a second week, with Anita still telephoning on a daily basis, my father began to engage in conversations with her. I stood on the landing above listening to him in the hallway below trying to reassure her and assuage her concerns. I recall standing there, hands on the bannister, feeling the sensation of power washing over me as I thought of her anxious and worried, repeatedly calling and discussing this ongoing situation with my father. I know he liked Anita. He had met her in previous holidays. My father liked most people and saw the best in people. People liked him as well which often irritated my mother in the extreme, but this is not her tale. Not this time.

     My father would argue Anita’s case for her, outlining that it was not very fair to not speak to her and that she was clearly worried that she had upset me in some way but did not know why. I thanked for father for his concerns and his attempt to broker a peace but this was between Anita and me. He pushed it no further with me, he knew by now better than to do so, but he continued to entertain Anita’s morning, afternoon or evening call (dependent on her shifts) in order to keep giving her hope that I would “snap out of it” or “come to my senses” as he put it.

     We reached the third week of the silent treatment. I was enjoying myself. I was gaining daily attention from Lucy who called on me every day in order to ensure we did something together. I had no need to try to impress her any longer. She was hooked. I was also gaining the attention from Anita as her telephone calls and consultations with my father continued. Sometimes I was in and I listened, sometimes I was out and my father left me a note saying Anita had called. It was satisfying.

     Into this third week, on a warm summer’s evening when I had returned from a day out in the countryside with Lucy, there came the chime of the old doorbell being activated. I was alone in the house and made my way to the partition door and stepped into the porch. The large wooden door had a diamond pane of glass set in it which enabled me to see who the visitor was. It was Anita. She had turned to look behind her, no doubt enjoying the wonderful view across the fields as they were lit up still by the sun. I ducked back so she could not see me. The power began to surge through me again. She had travelled to see me, without warning and knowing that I was not speaking to her. I noticed she had even appeared with a small suitcase as well in the hope of staying. She clearly did not want to let go. I was delighted by this. She had learned hadn’t she that she had been failing in her attentiveness to me? By administering this silence, something I had learned from dearest mother, I had caused her to realise her error and up her efforts in respect of me, resulting in her disrupting her working schedule and travelling to me.

To have her do this showed just how much I mattered to her and also how effective giving her the silent treatment was. I punched the air in delight with the powerful sensation still rushing over me, but there was more. I let her ring again and then I opened the door. I stood looking down at her as she stood on the second step. She looked at me, eyes wide in expectation but a nervousness about her too. She said nothing as I look at her.

“Hello Anita,” I smiled, “you have no idea how happy I am to see you on this doorstep again, my goodness I have missed you like you wouldn’t believe.”

I expected her to laugh, to smile but instead she burst into tears, her attractive face scrunching up as the tears flowed.

“What is it?” I asked completely foxed by this response.

She stepped forward and placed her arms about me. I reciprocated as she squeezed me tight, great wracking sobs coursing through her.

“Oh HG, I thought you had had enough of me, that you didn’t want to see me anymore.”

“Of course not, I er, just needed to do some thinking about things and it made me realise that er, it’s you that I want.”

She lifted her head and looked straight at me.


“Of course.”

She started to cry again, a smile breaking through the continuing tears.

“HG, you have no idea what a relief it is to hear you say that to me.”

It was then that I understood. This tearful display was borne out of relief. Relief at having the silence broken. Relief at being held in my arms again. Relief that our relationship remained intact. The sensation was electrifying and I learned just how powerful the effect of seeing tears of relief was. I revelled in knowing that by my grace and decision I could grant her access to me once again and her relief poured from her, invigorating and edifying me. That moment, like so many other moments of realisation has stayed with me and I have used the power to cause those tears of relief to flow and the consequent fuel that arises to good effect on many occasions since.

234 thoughts on “The Crying Game – Part Four

  1. Indy says:

    Hi Jenna,
    I just saw your message from 6/3 and the difficult time you were having with no contact then. I understand, there is no shame here. It takes practice to break free from the addiction of being overly attached to someone that is not healthy. I hear you when you say you have had past docs and therapists that did not understand the level of “separation anxiety” you experience. This is actually really common with those with “attachment issues” and BPD. Although I do not personally have BPD, I know I too have to work on my attachment issues too and I have some similar symptoms, such as suicidal ideation(pretty severe too, though currently completely recovered, knock on wood@!!!!!). It can look like separation anxiety as that is part of attachment too. YOu are is very similar to severe co-dependence and other personality disorders in cluster B. If you do not already have someone you like working with, may I suggest some things to look for when searching for a new therapist? (Only if you wish) Let me know if you are interested and I can give some things to look for, as it is really hard to find a good one. And, it is vital, when you need support regularly, to build a good support system for you that does not include unhealthy people. Slowly…slow steps….

    You also might want to buy Exorcism by HG, it really helps get him out of your mind. Have you ever experienced DBT therapy (Group or individual?). It is now officially recognized as gold standard for treatment of symptoms of BPD and it worked for me personally with suicidal ideation. It was the only thing that helped. It takes a lot of practice and guidance and a good DBT therapist is worth their weight in gold. Seriously. It is why I am soooo excited about it and talk about it a lot. Have you ever worked with a therapist with training in attachment disorders?

    Anyway, just let me know if you want any more info.

    Hoping the best for you and hang in there, you are among those that know how hard this is!!!

    1. jenna says:

      Thank you indy. I’ve missed all of you as i’ve been laying low for the past wk or so. I am glad you have recovered frm your suicidal ideation and hope to god that it never returns. Indy, i am trying to look for a good dbt online therapist, so if you have any leads on that, i can use some input, only if you have time. These days, i’m finding it hard to get out of the house. I confided in two friends about my narc 2 yrs ago and they abandoned me for 4 days out of frustration for not being able to cut off ties with him. So i had an ongoing 4 day panic attack due to them. I try to be strong but the physical symptoms are just so painful and real. Rn, my ex narc is texting me almost daily. Honestly, he would not let me suffer a four day panic attack like my two ‘normal’ friends did. When i tell him im having a panic attack, he calls me immediately. I wish i were not so sensitive but i suffered from separation during childhood twice before the age of 5 and i think maybe that’s why i get panic attacks if rejected, real or perceived.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        I’m trying to imagine what a 4 day panic attack would be like and I can not. Mine only last for seconds or a few minutes at most and they are devastating. Saying a mantra over and over gets me thru mine, but that wouldn’t work for 4 days! I do get sucked into depressions for days and they can have panicky feels. What helps me best is going outside.
        Being panicked/depressed is like being trapped. I’ve found if you stay in the same location, it is harder to break free from this mental trap. Now I don’t mean go out where people are. That makes it many times worse for me, but just go somewhere different alone if you can. From my experience going outside adds so much more sensory stimulation (sounds, smells, wind in your hair, etc.) that dealing with these new sensations helps your brain break out of panic/depressed mode.
        Works for me. You might give it a try. I can usually get caught up in the wind in the trees or the sound of birds and make that my minds focus. Good luck! We do care and think about you and are always here to talk when you need to. ❤️

        1. Indy says:

          Windstorm2 and Jenna,

          Excellent advice, Windstorm! It is grounding to get out of our heads and into the 5 senses. And literally standing on the ground is psychologically “grounding” too…It is a spiritual thing for me too, nature and all the feels from it. I used to see people write the number 5 on the back of their hands to remind themselves to do it. To scan the 5 senses over and over until you are out of a “panic”. You are correct, usually panic attacks last for a few minutes to a few hours. When it is longer, it is usually a severe anxiety attack that can feel panicky. Both are miserable. I have had bouts of anxiety, though I have only had one panic attack. Lord, I hated it, I thought I was going to die. I ended up going to the ER as I thought it was a heart attack. I ended up quitting coffee for a long period of time because of it, building an anxiety self-soothe kit (candles, essential oils, soothing teas, soft clothes, soft hypnotic music), and worked on breathing exercises so it would not happen again. I still shudder when I think of that experience.

          I will do some looking to see if there are any online therapists that can Skype DBT lessons. There are some peer-led DBT lessons out there too. I cannot vouch for them, though it may be one option.

          Here is a link to find certified DBT therapists trained by the creator of DBT. It has a very large list from many states in the US:

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            Thanks Indy! Nearly 60 years of dealing with mental problems on my own and I’m bound to have learned something! Nice to have it confirmed. 😊

          2. Indy says:

            You definitely have natural wisdom, windstorm!! Much respect!

          3. jenna says:

            Thank you indy.

        2. jenna says:

          Windstorm, my panic attacks last anywhere btwn 2-7 days. It’s horrible. I’m sorry you suffer frm them also, but i’m glad yours are shorter in duration. I will try your suggestions. Thank you.

      2. Narc affair says:

        Hi jenna…my narcs the same way very dependable but dont forget they create the dependancy by being there for us. Its a tactic to hook and bind. I see that clearly yet i find it impossible to leave. I can really relate to how you feel and the panicky feeling.

        1. jenna says:

          Narcaffair, i’m so glad i found you here. Our narcs seem similar in that respect. I will read your posts with interest and to gain further perspective. Thank you.

  2. Jenna says:

    Matilda, his mother has zero idea of his sleazy ways. She thinks he is an angel sent from heaven, capable of doing no wrong. He is always rectiting from the scriptures in front of her. He has many chapters memorized. Ugh! She is always showing off to others about his religious ways (ya right).
    But you are correct in your other statements. He may have smeared me already, she may say i tampered with evidence, or she might say it is my fault, especially because he is the golden child and i am almost certain she is a narc too. She considers him and his religious achievements to be an extension of her holier than thou self.
    I just don’t feel satisfied that he is not suffering after everything i’ve done for him. Yes, i want him to suffer now! I still am feeling extremely hurt. I have been in bed all day. And my heart won’t stop pounding out of control.
    Even though he asked for friendship again 1.5 months ago, on tuesday morning he said this:

    Him: At the beginning of the weekend I blocked people who shouldnt be in my life and you were on that list. It’s because all the things that happened between us, i thought its better to stay away and as time passes by you forget people along with their history
    Him: I appreciate your help though
    Him: But now I’m a different person
    Me: You didnt think abt my feelings ? How it might hurt me when i realize im blocked?
    Me: I’ve been shaking for two days
    Him: It’s done now. Why’d you care

    Later in the same texting session he apologized and said we should be friends forever. I said ‘i don’t trust you anymore, then threatened about his matrinarc, then blocked him.
    He emailed me after 10 min.
    He called me after 1.5 hrs. I didnt reply to either.
    He called me twice today. I didn’t reply to either. No contact day 2.

    1. Matilda says:


      How ridiculous of him of all people to recite scriptures! 😀

      Well, now his own words are coming back to bite him… “blocked people who should not be in my life” and “it’s done now”. Wonderful, that YOU acted out what he so smugly stated. See, how No Contact causes anxiety in this little worm of a human being?

      It’s up to you, of course, but if I were you, I would leave it at that. The threat of exposure, him not knowing if or when you’d strike, is very efficient. His mind will be his own worst enemy. 🙂

  3. Jenna says:

    HG, can you pls explain your above comment. My mind isn’t working right now. Thank you. 💗

  4. Jenna says:

    Matilda, i just scrolled back to see what my ex said exactly. I think frm memory, the way i worded it was not correct. I apologize for the confusion.
    Here is the exact dialog approx. 1.5 mos ago:
    Him: You can say you love me but I know it doesn’t mean you would leave your life for me
    Me: correct
    Him: I can say I love you too when you do something which makes me feel good
    Me: ok😊
    Him: But it doesn’t mean I want you for myself
    Me: I know that very well now
    Him: So
    Him: Wanna be my friend ?
    Me: Yes 😊
    Him: Thanks 😄🎉
    Him: I love you for that
    Me: Thank u for being my friend too😊
    Him: Aren’t you hungry ?
    Me: No
    Him: I’m so hungry
    Me: Are you?
    Me: Ok
    Him: What did you eat last night?
    etc etc.

    After we broke up, i told him he should never have led me on if he didn’t truly love me, and definitely not been intimate with me. He agrees that we should not have been physical and that it was a mistake. So he makes sure now that he isn’t leading me on, nor say anything that i might misinterpret. He has a fear of that now. Hence the comment ‘but it doesn’t mean i want you for myself.’

    1. Narc affair says:

      Jenna…Sorry to pipe in but reading your conversation he really seems to be sizing up the situation and seeing how much control he still has. Hes on a fishing exhibition there. Was that the last time you texted?

      1. Jenna says:

        Narcaffair, that was approx 1.5 months ago, so it was not the last time he texted. “Fishing exhibition” lol. I needed that laugh. Thank you.

    2. Matilda says:


      I see… He does not love you for being his friend. He loves you for giving fuel in abundance, whenever he needs another fix.

      You show leniency time and again due to your empathic nature, feeling sorry for what he had to endure as a child, wanting to help him. BUT there comes a time when you have to be selfish, out of sheer survival instinct, if nothing else.

      Evaluate your friendships, do not make ANY excuses for anyone! And cut those out of your life who are not doing you any good.

      1. Jenna says:

        Yesterday, I told him he was wrong in blocking me for nothing, i threatened to expose him, and then i blocked him. My anger got the best of me.

      2. Matilda says:

        Understandable, Jenna. Anger is good, certainly better than anxiety and apathy, but you might also consider what you would achieve if you exposed him.

        His mother probably knows about his sleazy ways anyway, but would not admit it. Or she might not believe you as he most likely smeared your name beforehand, and might accuse you of tampering with evidence. Or she might say it was your fault. Why bother with that?

        The problem with feelings of revenge is that they TIE you to this person!! Love them, hate them, but never let them go – that’s what they want! The only way to hurt them is to ignore them. I am still amazed at how well this works. It cuts deepest.

  5. NarcAngel says:

    Been a long time but my dragon is awake. Low growling, simmering stomach, chest on fire and a need to hurt. Oh how I would love to toy with this lying, manipulative sack of shit. Let’s see how good this little novice is with the heat turned up a bit. Weak pathetic amateur that he is.

    1. Jenna says:

      NA, who are you talking about? If you are talking about my ex, yes can you pls do that? I would appreciate it.

  6. Narc affair says:

    Hi jenna
    I hope youre feeling a bit better.
    I was thinking today about your situation and i agree with others in that i think hes playing you. Im not sure what happened the last time you texted but it sounds like hes trying to cause anxiety. He knows how you are in that regard. Even if he isnt and theres another reason this episode is an eye opener. You are only in communication by text? Look what its done to you its made you physically sick. If you cant part ways maybe the texts need to be sporadic, meaning no set day. Youre depending on him responding on a set day and thats anxiety provoking. You arent a couple. Is it you staying in contact bc youre concerned about him or bc youre afraid to let him go? Be honest with yourself. Your currect partner is very patient and sounds like he really cares and loves you. You dont want to lose that. This guy (narc)altho he means something to you theres no future, moreover dont forget he is a narcissist. My narc is on great behaviour most of the time but thats to really contrast when he decides to be abusive. Dont forget hes a narc. Youve told him your most inner fears and anxieties and im afraid he may be taking advantage of that. As well, if you are only in contact by email or text theres nothing saying he wont vanish at some point. You have to be prepared for that possibility if you stay connected to him. I know how terrifying that can be.
    Its not easy and it hurts letting go especially for codependants and borderlines in particular. If you cant let go make the texts very few and sporadic so your dependancy on them lessens and with it your anxiety.
    If he gets in contact you need to decide what this is doing to you, if its worth it and also the risk of losing your current guy who sounds really sweet.
    Best of luck 💓

    1. Jenna says:

      Hi narc affair, yes my ex and i are long distance, ans only in contact via text. He doesn’t like talking on the phone, and he tends to shut down on the phone. The texts are sporadic, always initiated by him. He texts once per wk or once every two wks to make sure i am doing well. I was staying in contact because i was concerned about him when he was depressed and suicidal, but he has been so kind as a friend, that now i don’t want to lose that. I never part ways with anyone. I am still in contact with my previous 2 exes as well (non narcs). I just cannot break ties and have things go sour with anybody. That is just not me.
      My current partner is not patient, loving, nor caring. I have many examples to document this, but that is for another post. He pressed my heart last night because i asked him to. Unless i ask him to do something, he doesn’t care to do it. But after being asked, he is proactive in getting the job done and then going to sleep. He is constantly looking at his watch to see how much of his time i am wasting, and is always pointing it out too. I am only with him because my family strongly encouraged/pushed/almost forced me towards him because he has a very respectable career, and he earns 6 figures. Other than that, he doesn’t engage with me much, he is not affectionate at all (never hugs me or holds hands nor cuddles), he barely even talks to me. When i try to talk to him, he just responds with ‘ok.’
      When my ex narc is good, he’s much nicer than my SO (significant other), much more affectionate, much more responsive, much kinder.
      I never thought my ex narc would vanish since he asked multiple times if we could be friends ‘forever.’ I believed him. But i think he has now vanished. I have to accept it.

      1. Narc affair says:

        Hi jenna
        I dont think hes vanished but i think hes playing you or taking you for granted bc hes able to let go of you more probably bc of a new source. I hate saying that bc i know thats dreaded but you are just friends now. Truthfully i dont know if you can be friends with a narc. This question has weighed heavily kn my mind. Narcissists are manipulative and dont care about others despite acting like they do. Your ex’s caring nature about your anxieties Nd making sure hes reliable reminds me sooo much of my narc! I think its self serving. He does that to create the illusion of dependability and its another hook. You become reliant on this illusion. He does it bc hes still getting something from you and wants you in the wings or part of his matrix. If he decides you are no longer useful that dependability im sure will no longer be there. Do you want to wait around til that time? Its so toxic.
        The dangerous part is what mla had said …when he contacts you you will feel relief and all is forgotten. You cant forget what this does to you. Its not just emotionally but physiologically inside your body its in constant turmoil. Over time itll catch up to you.
        I can compleyely sympathize bc im in the same situation and have similiar panic attacks. One thing i dont do tho is admit my fears and what i go thru to the narc. Youre too honest and giving him ammunition to abuse you. He knows your triggers and buttons. Hes not your confidant and trusted friend bc hes a narc! Thats something im still beating into my head. Theyre amazing actors and worst of all we want to believe them. Dont believe his act. Youve given him so very much supporting him despite being with someone else. Its ok to let go of people that arent good in your life. You dont need them to survive. Youve got yourself and youre your best friend!
        If youre unhappy with the guy youre with then id say end it. It sounds like you still are clinging to the narc bc he shows concern and caring. Its an act bc he wants you in the wings to call on when he feels like it.
        Im sorry youre struggling with this. I get it!

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi narcaffair, “the illusion of dependability.” I think you nailed it for me here! Now it all makes sense. And i thought he was practising cognitive empathy. Thank you. The way you worded it makes it so very clear. And i am sorry that you suffer frm panic attacks also. They’re horrible. Sending you hugs. 💗

  7. Star says:

    Jenna, I feel for you.. I really do.I know you are panicking, I know that your world feels like it’s standing still until you hear from him. This is what he wants. He is feeding off of this. He is feeding off of you and your vulnerability. He does not care about the torture he is putting you through, he cares only about the powerful feeling he gets seeing you distraught.I wish you all the best and I hope you can see for yourself… that you deserve so much more. That there are people out there that do not manipulate, that do not make you feel less ,that will not keep you constantly spinning and anxious and wondering where you stand in their life. Hugs to you.

    1. Jenna says:

      Thank you Star.

      1. Jenna says:

        Thx indy. I will update here as to what happens. Until now, the text is still stuck at one check mark.

        1. Indy says:

          Hi Jenna
          Hoping you are hanging in there. This is No Contact check in day one ❤️

          If you cannot block him yet, I understand. Just try not to talk to him. Blocking is easiest way though. There is no shame here, do what you can to distance from him.

          Here is a website of self care ideas while contemplating NC. I hope you consider NC plus radical self care as it is a game changer in reducing anxiety. It worked for me.

          I told you I worked with those with BPD, I know you fear abandonment though what he’s doing is wrong and manipulating.

          Here are some ideas of self care:

          Hope you find them helpful ❤️

          1. Jenna says:

            This will be v helpful indy. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

  8. Narc affair says:

    Hi jenna
    I dont know your situation but i just wanted to say youre not alone ive felt how you feel a lot. Its panic attacks and for me stems from fear of abandonment. It can be a bpd trait as well. Its not a nice feeling and you feel your worlds crashing in but its only a moment in time. Its temporary and will pass. Think realistically, this guy has gotten a lot from you and why would he give that up. Not to say its healthy to want to be in contact with him but im saying it to help ease your mind. It could be many reasons why hes late gettjng im contact.
    Anyways try to distract yourself and think soothing rational thoughts not the scary anxious ones. Deep breathe as well. Just call theres no use suffering. Sending hugs and hope you feel better soon. I totally get how you feel!

    1. Jenna says:

      Thx narc affair. Your words mean alot.

  9. Love says:

    Your father seemed like a sweet empathic man. May he rest in peace. I understand the other commentators’ points that he may have been a codependent. No disrespect to him, but he may have just enjoyed the time and attention of a lovely young woman. Simple as that. And they formed a bond because of you. He was helping a damsel in distress. What man wouldn’t enjoy that?

    1. Nasty says:

      Love: You brought up a good point maybe Hgs father possibly enjoyed chatting with anita. Maybe he seen a woman he preferred who had feelings and warmth unlike his wife. He maybe seen himself as an empath in this young lady. He felt symathy for her bc he knew ALL too well how nasty and awful his wife could be. Possibly he felt she was hope for his son and why he tried to keep her hanging on. I am curious if his dad knew he was a codependant and if he knew his wife was a narcissist or what narcissism was.
      Empaths arent perfect and do make mistakes. When youre codependant your fuel is the one your codependant on much like a narc with fuel from sources. Its an addiction and breakjng away can be very difficult but there are no excuses when it comes to children. That said you can only blame parents for so long then its time to be your own parent and work on yourself and try and forgive.

  10. Indy says:

    Agreed 💯 Mrs Linton

  11. Mrs Linton says:

    Sorry HG I meant peace.

  12. Mrs Linton says:

    Hang on a minute. HGs father did not look after HIM in the way that he should. He did not protect him as a child, and he wasn’t protecting him then. I don’t know whether anything was resolved with your father HG I feel for your Dad, but we shouldn’t miss the point.
    If he has really cared about Anita he would have told her his son was an arse. Typical codependent behaviour keeping the piece at any price

    1. Nasty says:

      Indy/miss linton
      This is a good point. His father shouldve taken a stand. I get the feeling he was trying to keep things together but the repercussions of that were huge. He knew his wife was abusive bc he was under that abuse himself. Yes he shouldve definitely left the marriage and looked out for his children. Its never easy as a codependant/victim of abuse i can relate but your children should be first. Such a sad situation.

    2. Why do you say his father didn’t look after little HG?

  13. Indy says:

    His father is very similar to my recent ex Ns father. His father tried to convince me to come back, on his son’s behalf after I went no contact with my ex. He tried to broker peace too. He was a codependent. He always made excuses for his son’s behavior and yet wanted to be closely bonded to his son. He knew his son’s behavior was not kind and even referred to him as a “jackass” to me. His father attempted to get my liking, my acceptance. He was a lieutenant. He was sweet but also it felt like soft manipulation, like that of a codependent. Codependency is not real love either. I suspect HGs dad, as sweet and soft he appeared, was too soft and too much of a pleaser, rather than stand up for his son (HG) in the face of the MatriNarcs abuses. He thought HG was tough enough, but forgot that HG was a child. That’s a lack of parental protection against the anusive MatriNarc for his own benefit to keep his marriage. No matter how well meaning his father, he failed at being an appropriate parent and protecting from MatriNarc (in my view). We like his father because we see ourselves in him, but miss the fact that he too was duped by a narcissist, the MatriNarc.

    1. Indy says:

      His father should have stood up to MatriNarc rather than try to soothe the children on the side. He tried to fix where leaving the MatriNarc would have been a more strong approach in protecting the children. However, I do not know his entire story either as he may have been scared to leave and she may have attempted to take kids. Or it could have been something as shallow as status. Don’t know the entire story. What I do know is it first blush I too liked HGs dad. Then I thought, why the hell didn’t he fight more for HG and leave? Either way, the end may have been the same, though I would have liked to seen more fight in his dad. Perhaps because I moved 2000 miles to leave my son’s abusive father, perhaps because I left a rich man to live a more healthy life…perhaps because that was how I protected my son. Thus my bias, I’m a mama bear.

      1. AH OH says:

        I hope you took some duckets with you. 1st husband, I gave everything up to get out for myself. Call me selfish, but I did what I felt was best for myself and my sons. My second husband, a very different story. I was not leaving empty handed.
        I understand leaving with nothing material just to get out. You can always make money. You can always replace THINGS. But you can’t get your time and peace of mind if you stay in a bad place.
        I am calculating and intelligent, but it does not make me infallible.

        HG will you ever admit this? That you could make a misstep in a move of your game of LIFE. How else can you grow and become wiser? Mistakes are fine, and it is not a weakness. It is only a weakness if you keep making the same ones. Missteps and Mistake are inevitable.

        “I am never wrong. I am just mistaken.” This would be the HG way.

        1. Indy says:

          I left everything with the well to do ex. He thought he could buy me and my pride always kicks in as I’m not one to be bought. It was my message to him. He tried to send money while stalking after his horrible malign hoovers he’d change his tactic and send a check. I threw them away. I knew they were ways to hook me back. This is the guy that after 20 years is hoovering again thru attempts to get my son to communicate. My son has been NC with him though wants to tell him to go to hell and he wants to hold him to account for the stuff my son witnessed as a child and remembered. I explained fuel to my adult son and he’s silient for now. We will see if my son maintains NC though I told him he’s and adult and can do as he chooses. Even my son said WTH with ex husband stalking this long, trying to get to me they my adult son.

          My freedom has no price tag.

          1. AH OH says:

            Holy hell! Did he hit you? I agree, there is only so far I would go too. He would have “owned” you had you cashed the checks. You are a badass! I would have cashed them and bought a gun with the first check and took shooting lessons.
            Is this your son’s bio dad? He might be realizing he is aging and is afraid of being old and alone. Or he is trying to get to you through your son, like my ex is doing now. My middle son has basically cut me off and is establishing a relationship with him due to his CUnT gf encouraging him to do so. I wish I could make her go away.

          2. Indy says:

            Hi Ah Oh,
            No, he isn’t my son’s biological father. My son’s biological father stalked me for years after I left him and threatened my life. He was a lesser, aggressive type. The classic bad boy with a Harley type. He never laid a hand on me, but it was coming. I ended up moving 2000 miles to not be stalked anymore and for safety. No one knew where I was save my parents. Not even friends. I knew how to disappear. He caused the first PTSD wound in me regarding stalking. I am still to this day quite vigilant.

            My ex husband came into my life shortly after, when my son was a young child. He never adopted him or had any legal bind to my son, thank goodness. Ex-husband was likely a mid-range combo. He didn’t engage in the same gas lighting intensity that the recent ex-N did and he never hit me. And golden period was likely longer, much longer. I never thought of him as a true narcissist until coming here and talking to my sister about it. The stalking the ex-husband has done has varied from malign to benign. And extensive. More than anyone in my past.

            My son witnessed some scary things, though never physical violence. I was lucky to always avoid this. My son witnessed a faked suicide attempt of the ex husband (we walked in on it, it was after I asked for a divorce) I sent ex to the hospital . I was told he faked an over dose by the nurses (nothing in the stomach) and I had his ass committed. Boy he was pissed as his family was too. (My revenge). Then, when he got out two weeks later he malign hovered me hard. He found my new living location, tore apart my car, screamed threatening things at me through security camera when I would not let him in (my son saw this unfortunately and was scared). He was only 9 then. So, we attempted to drop off radar. But, this ex was smarter. He knew how to find me. So I had to get better at hiding. For years, he sent letters and money and cards to my parents, to me and to my son after the divorce. Some were letters wishing I was dead, some were love letters. Shifting back and forth. I never responded. I knew if I did, he would find me. I knew this from previous priming from the previous ex.

            Am I a bad ass? Yeah, I am, thank you 🙂 I do not look it. It always fool them. I look soft, talk soft, try to understand, until I break. Its my secret weapon. They never see it coming when I finally roar. When it comes to my son and my safety, I am fierce.

            My son and I are really tight, fortunately. It breaks my heart that my son was impacted by witnessing this. He is an empath with a temper.

            I am so sorry that you are going through this with your middle son. Sounds heart breaking. I hope he eventually sees the truth. My son, once he was reunited with his biological father a few years ago, saw the truth, without me saying one thing to him. Truth comes out somehow.

          3. AH OH says:

            Holy cow Indy! But now you are in a good place so this is a wonderful.
            I am ready to divorce myself from 2 of my adult sons. They love to tell me how bad I am and how I do everything wrong. My family (who helped raised them) is not good enough and they have nothing in common. These little pricks would be nothing without me. Middle son walked out of college (125.000 total cost) with no debt, no car payment and a brand new car as he did not like the Escalade which had 30k miles on it when he received it, up graded from a Yukon which I gave to my sister who still is driving it. He received a Subaru, as he wanted an Outback, paid for. A cash gift of 50K. I lent him 150K to buy in a business, which they just sold and he retained a contract with the company and will be with them a very long time.
            Yes he put in the work but all this would never have happened had I not married and stayed with a man I should never had been with for 11 years. Fucking ingrate to say the least. To stand in my kitchen and tell me I would be nobody. To stand in my kitchen and insult me with his chunky little bitch girlfriend and tell me I am selfish and materialistic. FUCK THEM ALL! His ass came out of the trust as a 1/3 share and has no access and no say to what happens with any other asset. OH BOY writing it makes me sick to my stomach with this person who I do not know anymore.
            Of course there is so much more to the story but I gave my life for these fuckers. No wonder I hate people.
            My youngest has had two new cars. FJ cruiser and no an Impresa Subaru. He did not like the FJ. Wasted 3 years and as much money on school and he changed his major and it is Mechanical Engineering. So I am still fucking paying. Spoiled little asswhips.
            My oldest, whom I have done the least for is the loyal, sweet child who will always be gentle and loving.
            I see so much of their bio dad in them and he did not raise them. Scary

          4. Jenna says:

            You are a good mom my dear indy.

          5. Indy says:

            I appreciate that. I was not perfect by any means, but I treasure the relationship I have with my son.

        2. Indy says:

          And I get you Ah Oh, if it’s a better life for your kids I totally get it. For me, the money would have been shackles

          1. AH OH says:

            The bio dad once said to me, you take the child support, I will own you. I took it and he tortured me until I remarried. When I divorced the second one, they talked to each other.

      2. AH OH says:

        Perhaps his father was broken by Matrinarc. I have seen it before. My son will be this man one day.

    2. windstorm2 says:

      I agree with you, Indy. Granted we can never really know how it was, but that seems the most likely to me. He was a man who continued to live with an abusive narcissist for decades. His children suffered abuse during this time and how did he deal with this? Unless I missed it somewhere, HG has never written about his father stepping in and protecting his children. Maybe he did, but maybe he didn’t. We all know what it does to a person’s thought processes to live with a narc. His father may have felt hopeless or overwhelmed or just been in denial. And as to him having been an empath – being able to feel empathy with someone suffering does not in any way guarantee that person will do anything to help.

      1. amsodone says:

        HG, I am thinking the following is fuel and not injury… here goes my take.
        Dad was an appliance and he did his best (as we all do) without ANY Narc code. If Dad had HG’s insight (I know it sounds crazy in a Back to the Future film kind of way), Dad may have behaved differently. Behavior is based upon the information and perception at the time.
        Hey, the guy did his best with the cards he was dealt. And he did not put a bullet in her head so I think he deserves some kudos. I think we, as appliances, should be the last to cast stones… True..nest ce pas? just my take away

    3. The only way HG’s father could protect little HG was to leave his mother. Otherwise keeping peace was the only option. You don’t say NO to a narc, remember???

      1. Indy says:

        Yes leaving was the only option really. He could have stood up to her but indeed it would have resulted in intense battles. Children are so vulnerable that I see it as they only answer if the parent is strong enough and has the resources to leave. It’s complicated though because even leaving is wrought with issues like custody and visitation. I lucked out when I left my two exes they had no legal standing with my son. Thank god. Like I said above I moved thousands of miles to protect my son and myself.

  14. Nasty says:

    The way you treated anita was out and out nasty. I wouldve loved to have heard her version how things ended. Hopefully she seen sense and left. Prolonged silent treatments is a deal breaker for me. The ex narc found this out. His emails are piling up and i have zero interest in him. Id never go back. Why chase after someone who is ignoring you its a waste of time.
    Your dad was a sweetheart and knew how to treat a woman with kindness you should of picked up on some of that. Out of all your family i feel your dad was the true victim caught between an overpowering narc wife and spoiled golden child son. He was probably the one trying to survive. Poor guy 🙁

    1. I like his dad. Lol. He was probably covering for HG his entire youth if not longer.
      You see HG how much you were loved? So don’t tell me abuse is the cause of your narcissism…

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I did not experience the love when I was a child.

        1. You mean you did not ‘feel’ love when you were a child. But that doesn’t mean you weren’t given love from your empath dad and siblings, you clearly were given plenty.
          You weren’t able to feel and experience love as a child, because you were born with no ability to feel love, not because of abuse. Your siblings grew up in the same household, yet they were able to experience and feel the love given by your dad, and grandmother.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No I wasn’t given plenty of love from my father. You evidently have not read what has been written in that regard.

          2. Maybe I haven’t read everything in that regard, but from what I’ve read your father is an empath and I’m sure he was trying to make up for the coldness of your mother by giving some extra love and attention to you and your siblings.
            I do realize the depth of lack of love from the mother cannot be made up for in any way, and I’m so sorry for that. I’ve seen stories from other people who were in same situation, including my own mom, and my heart aches for you. The lack of the essential life giving love is damaging for a lifetime, but it cannot damage enough to remove empathic properties from an empath child.

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            I think that is too strong a statement to dictate how HG was born. Do you know of an MRI of his brain showing that proof? We will also never know if MatriNarc ever truly bonded or even attempted to with HG as an infant which lays the blueprint for trust for the rest of one’s life.
            Having been a close by-standing witness to a family for 20 years that covered up the sexual abuse of the eldest child by an aunt, I saw an example of the kind of damage that inflicts. The other siblings not included in this and all shown love however, for the one that had to carry the burden of this shame, no amount of love from other family members eradicates the betrayal by the aunt who stole the innocence of a child and then the mother who covered it up when she found out many years later, adding a whole new level of betrayal.
            Do not forget that it was HG and only him, not his siblings that his Aunt also targeted. Maybe HG needed a stronger demonstration of Dad’s love then him trying to salvage a relationship with one of his girlfriends. I’m not saying that his Dad didn’t try to do things to help HG, but he seemed too passive going up against MatriNarc, which I’m sure he suffered greatly at her mind manipulations too. He probably stayed in the house to maintain his presence for his kids to try to counter her affect.

      2. Nasty says:

        I agree Hgs father sounded like a sweet man a real gentleman. The fact he took the time to talk to Anita when his son was playing immature mind games says a lot. He could relate im sure to Anita bc im sure narc mother dished out many ST’s to him over the years. He was in Anitas same position. An empathic good person in a bad relationship and probably going thru what most of us victims go thru stuck in these situations. He shouldve told Anita look my son doesnt deserve you and you could find better dear. Truth but he didnt want to betray his son. Sad. Im sure Anita seen the light eventually. One would hope

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          What’s interesting in your observation Nasty is HG’s dad may very well have been trying to display to HG how painful and unnecessary this silent treatment was. He was trying to bridge the gap that was developing. HG could have taken a day or two to sort his thoughts but then taken one of Anita’s calls and said flat out and honestly, “you hurt my feelings the other day when you seemed to not care if I spend time with Lucy. You’re my GF. You should want to carve time out to See Me so we can spend some time together this summer.” It isn’t weak honestly addressing someone with your feelings. It’s brave. It’s weak lurking behind in the shadows.
          I do think HG’s dad was trying to be a role model in how a man would act, but it still paled in comparison to how domineering MatriNarc was.

          1. Jenna says:

            Clarece or somebody, help! But i prefer not to relay my back story again. So somebody who is familiar with it would be preferred.
            It’s been two wks since my ex texted me. He never lets it go beyond 2 wks. I do not prefer to initiate the texts but today i had to becoz its his bday. So i texted him happy bday. The text has been stuck on one check for the past two hrs. I wonder if he blocked me? But why would he? He’s been nothing but kind since i originally escaped him. And, I helped him so much to get out of his depression. 😢
            This led to a panic attack. I could not breathe nor walk properly. If this is a discard then i am afraid i may have a recurrence of ptsd in the near future.
            And if this is a discard without notice or forewarning as HG has described in an article, then i am in for even more ptsd. I’ve been crying for the past two hours.

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            Jenna! Stop crying right now. This IS exactly why I’ve been telling you that going along with this “charade” of his to remain “friends” thru text only on his stop watch when he feels like checking in is horse 💩.
            If you must know tonight if you are blocked, then just dial his # for an actual call. If you’re blocked you will either get a recorded message saying your call cannot be received by the recipient (i.e., a Verizon call to another Verizon user). Or, it won’t even ring, just go straight to voice mail, as if he’s on the other line. But most carriers give the option for the recipient to switch over to another caller so it rings the usual 3-4 times still if say, he actually was talking to someone else. If you call and either he will answer or voice mail will kick in after 4-5 rings, leave a simple Happy Birthday message. With your recent correspondence it would not be outlandish for you to be sending well wishes.
            After today Jenna, you need to wrap your head around that if your two shakes away from complete meltdown mode if one text isn’t answered, when he isn’t reciprocating anything except 1/2 hearted, text only conversations, you need to cut that baggage loose once and for all.
            He does not have your back.

          3. Jenna says:

            Thx clarece. Do you know what happens if the carrier is AT&T? But i do not feel comfortable calling him. Because after the whatsapp text (which is still stuck at one check mark), i texted him via imsg saying happy bday. It showed that it was sent as a text msg. But no reply. He usually replies promptly. Then half hr later i texted him ‘r u ok? I’m worried’ and it didn’t show any delivery status. So maybe he blocked me on imsg too after receiving the first msg there. Yes, i admit i have panic attacks easily when it concerns him, or anyone really. I hope love is correct and he is just travelling or something. Maybe when/if he texts me back, i won’t reply. That should get him. Now i have to remind myself to breathe (panic attack symptom). Thx again. I can see you all care abt me and that means alot to me. 💗

          4. Jenna says:

            Clarece, i checked with a family member about AT&T. It gives a busy signal when blocked. I’m too scared to try it though. If i hear the busy tone, i will likely faint. I can’t try it. I’ll have a heart attack. But thank you.

          5. MLA - Clarece says:

            Here’s where you and I differ then. After months of talking him off the ledge in the name of friendship that he pressed you for, if he blocked you when you were trying to wish him a Happy Birthday, I think you’re just going to feel tortured for the next several days wondering if you really are. It’s a pretty hurtful move. I’d want to know and if I got a busy signal, F*ck him. Shows how much you meant to him all along. But that’s where my anger seeps in take over the hurt.
            I like Indy’s 90 for 90 idea. It would actually be good for me too. Lol
            I wouldn’t be surprised though since your guy and JN are so similar, I could picture yours texting you later this week after the holiday weekend with “thanks for the B-Day wishes. Was busy”. Then you’ll feel that wave of relief, rationalize that this friendship status has staying power, and forgot he drove you to take 3 anxiety pills. I’ve been there.
            How is your current boyfriend OK with you being so upset over not hearing from your ex over this?

          6. windstorm2 says:

            Yes Clarece, I think that’s exactly what will happen. She will hear from him in a few days. And either way, whether he waited to respond to upset her to draw more fuel or whether he was just thoughtless and uncaring doesn’t change the pain she had gone thru.
            I hate to suggest this, but based on what I know of how narcs respond – I wonder how much of his depression and suicidal thinking might have just been manipulation. Some narcs will pretend that to hold onto you. Especially when they see you are breaking away.
            And they can be very convincing. I know two who I swear seem to really believe their own lies! Both of these ladies have repeatedly manipulated their IPs this way, but neither would ever actually follow thru. In the end it becomes clear that they are doing exactly what they want to do.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            This situation is one of wholesale manipulation. The individual concerned instinctively knows that he has ensnared a victim who is completely blind to his control and manipulation and every time the brutal truth of what he is doing is explained, the victim automatically chooses to find an “innocent” explanation in order to prolong the connection with the narcissist.

            He is a narcissist. He is controlling and manipulating the victim. This is what we do. This is what he is doing.

          8. Jenna says:

            Thank you HG. Why my mind makes excuses for him is due to the 3 yrs of sexual abuse by an adult male that he endured as a child. I put my own feelings aside (to a point) and just try to be there for him. When i guessed about his sexual abuse (he never directly told me), that’s when he confirmed it, but he said never to bring it up again. I then knew it was real. I ended up crying for an hour. Child abuse tears me up so badly. I appreciate you intervening here. Thank you. 💗

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Your mind makes excuses because it is your emotional thinking which as an empathic individual overrides your cool, hard logic repeatedly. If he had not been abused your emotional thinking would find a different excuse for you to use.

          10. Jenna says:

            I see. Thank you HG.

          11. Jenna says:

            Thx windstorm2. I am so low right now that i can’t even come up with a coherent answer to the responses that you lovely pple have been providing me with. I feel so cared for here. I thank all of you and HG for this virtual world he has created.

          12. Jenna says:

            Hi clarece, i have a feeling this is discard without forewarning because he said two wks ago that he wants to make his life beautiful. Maybe i stand in the way of that because i remind him of his past indiscretions. I am expecting nothing frm him now. I think i hate him. Maybe. I don’t know. I helped him so much and this is what he puts me through? He is usually very good with cognitive empathy in the past and fixes his behavior right away if i tell him that something he did has hurt me, eg. future faking. He will make a conscious effort not to repeat it. I therefore never never expected this frm him.
            In fact, a month ago, he reconfirmed by asking me again ‘do you want to be friends, but we shouldn’t talk about the past’ and i said ‘sure.’ He replied with ‘😀🎉.’ He was very happy and he said ‘i will sometimes say i love you, if you do something that makes me feel good, but this time don’t misunderstand that love to be anything more than friends.’ He was so happy with my ‘yes’ that the next day he sent me a video of himself taking a walk, enjoying the lovely weather and trying to make his life beautiful. He hasn’t taken a photo or video of himself since i originally escaped him, had deleted all his posts on instagram, because his self esteem was so low. So this was to show me that he’s definitely getting better if he’s able to take a video.
            My signif other (SO) is very strong, like a rock, resilient. Nothing bothers him. He is not a narc, but he is definitely not an empath. He does what needs to be done. He doesn’t feel, he acts. So if i’m having a panic attack, he’ll address that situation. He knows i’m sensitive and he accepts it.

          13. Love says:

            Jenna, don’t panic. He’ll respond. He could be travelling or a million other reasons. No point in stressing yourself out. It will be ok. Hugs to you ❤💜💛💚

          14. Indy says:

            Hi Love,
            I like your encouragement, you are far more optimistic than I.
            I had him either finding fuel or on the precipice ready to jump. But that’s me, can you see why I was diagnosed with depression. Ever so cheerful! Lol

            Jenna–Love is right. Relax, he’s fine. Still keep an eye on the addictive withdrawals sweety as it sounds like it might be some of that too. They are like drugs to the mind and heart.


          15. Love says:

            I always say, they ain’t dead unless we’ve killed them. (For anyone taking what I wrote seriously, it was a joke – no one should be killed). It is normal for us to panic and worry ourselves silly thinking they’re hurt/harmed. They’re just fine. And they always pop back up like nothing even happened.

          16. Jenna says:

            Love, your disclaimer made me laugh so hard: “(For anyone taking what I wrote seriously, it was a joke – no one should be killed).”
            Lol, don’t know who will interpret statements in a way other than we intend!

          17. Love says:

            Hi Jenna. How are you feeling today? I hope you are better. Is there acupuncture in your area? Some health insurance companies cover acupuncture. The reason I ask is I am concerned about you having to take extra anxiety pills. I haven’t seen many western doctors work with a patient in a thorough manner after prescribing meds. Acupuncturists work with your body to balance it, so it is not volatile during emergency situations. You can go to them multiple times a week. They also teach you tools that will help manage the panic attacks. My therapist called me a frog in boiling water. You keep taking and taking until you realize you’re being boiled alive. You are still young but our bodies are not indestructible. Be good to you, and let your body heart and mind slowly heal. 💙

          18. Jenna says:

            Hi love, after reading comments frm all you lovely pple, i do feel a little better. I started with the anti-anxiety pills today again. I had to because the tachycardia was still present and limiting my ability to function. Funny thing is, in the past, i told my narc that due to his silences, i have to take anti-anxiety pills. He said ‘i hate those pills and only i can help you’ and he tried so hard to help me, be kind, reply to texts promptly, and practise cognitive empathy after that. Yesterday’s episode happened after almost one year of him being kind, so it was completely unexpected.
            I cannot go for acupuncture rn but i will look into it in the future. Thank you for the suggestion. Rn, i am home-bound due to the ongoing but reduced panic symtoms. Thx again. 💗

          19. Love says:

            I’m sending you my love and positive thoughts. ❤ They do seem to be the curse and the cure, funny enough.

          20. Jenna says:

            Thank you so much love. 💗
            I’m reading through HG’s other articles and comments and distracting myself that way.

          21. Indy says:

            Like daisies!

          22. Jenna says:

            Thx indy.

          23. Jenna says:

            Thx love. I hope so.

          24. Indy says:

            Oh Jenna,
            (Hugs)…Sweety, you are going through withdrawals. Keeping contact with a primary narcissist from a former relationship is not ending the addictive quality. This is why HG meant when he said he was not your ex. You are still taking the Narc drug. He is still manipulating you. No contact is the only way through. Abstinence. It took me thirty days to sixty days to get out of the side effects of addiction.

            Now, this is the time to use your selfsoothe skills. I know this is hard. Spend time with your boyfriend and distract. Self soothe with Your five senses, get a quick massage or mani, treat yourself to an amazing meal, listen to soothing music, journal, have a margarita, swim, write here, meditate, pray….

            Now if you are worried about possible suicide on his end, send a safety check to his home by police or friend. Not you! I doubt it’s that. He’s more likely playing and possibly getting a primary lined up.

            Sending support and strength vibes your way. This is withdrawals sweety, I had them too for nearly a month or so.

          25. Jenna says:

            Indy, thx. I’ve been having my significant other press firmly on my heart due to intense tachycardia. It’s very soothing. But my non-narc significant other is something else as well. We’ll save that story for another time.
            Suicide? No way! My ex told me that he no longer is contemplating suicide and he wants to make his future beautiful. I was the one who got him out of suicide mode. I kept explaining his disorder to him, how it’s not his fault, how it’s the fault of his childhood sexual abuser, and that i have decided to forgive him for his past silences. Usually, he tells me ‘i appreciate what you’re doing for me so much.’ My heart cried for him since he used to text me asking what to do to get out of the suicidal ideation. And he’s reciprocated my help with kindness. But i did not expect this today! I’ve taken two anti-anxiety pills and god i’m drowsy.

          26. Jenna says:

            I think i’ll pretend he’s dead. That way, at least i can have some closure if he doesn’t reply. If he’s dead, he can’t possibly reply right? My hurt is turning to anger… I had to take my 3rd anti-anxiety pill today. But they have an addicting quality so not recommended to take for extended periods. Thus, I hope this uncertainty will be over soon. And if it’s not, np. He’s dead for me anyways.

          27. Indy says:

            Its understandable you are feeling anger. This is a good sign! He is playing you for fuel and I would be pissed! Don’t give him that anger. It’s fuel too. Give him a 30-60 day silent treatment. Once you get thru that time you will feel stronger to go full no contact. In AA, they have this thing called 90 in 90. You come for 90 meetings for 90 days straight and are abstinent for 90. Afftwr this you are much stronger. Withdrawals fade. Come here and post each day about being no contact for 90….we will post back 😊 It’s hard, I know. And eventually you will be able to lessen those anxiety pills will time. I had to take anxiety meds during this too, now I’m off.
            It’s your choice of course.
            You can do it Jenna!!

          28. windstorm2 says:

            Jenna, I am in an ongoing relationship ship with a messed up narc also (thankfully only long distance). I have cut him off so many times, and like Indy said, after a month or so of not contacting him, I begin to feel so much lighter and better. Then Eventually I will hear from him again.
            I have made it clear to him that I know what he is (mid level somatic narc) and that we can not even be friends (since he is incapable of love, caring or even being supportive). All we can be are acquaintances who occasionally email. I hate to totally cut him off, though. I feel a connection to him and I wouldn’t want someone to cut me off.
            All that said, this ongoing “relationship” is just a source of pain for me. Having to deal with his emails is just constant upheaval and pain to me. Like you I only respond. I don’t initiate contact with him (except like you I did send him a Happy Bday 😊). I think it’s just too hard to not get caught up in expecting more from him – like you’d get from a normal person.
            I think I understand where you’re coming from, but I also am afraid it is going to keep you mired in pain and worry. So far he’s done the regular texts with you, but it is inevitable that he will begin to jerk you around – maybe this failure to respond is such an instance. He will not be able to keep from trying to control and manipulate you for his own amusement and fuel. You can keep responding, but I’m afraid this relationship will be a continual source of pain for you, like mine is for me.

          29. Jenna says:

            Windstorm2, my ex is also a somatic mid-ranger just like yours. And we are also long distance now, so we don’t see each other, ever. Your story has many parallels with mine. Thank you for your input.

        2. We can decipher what kind of a man was/is Tudor’s father is by looking at/ listening to mr Tudor himself, because I think mr Tudor mirrored his father to build the facade traits we meet here. A sweet, kind, gentle man, a perfect English gentleman.

      3. amsodone says:

        Dad was a “protective factor”.

      4. Matilda says:


        He’s playing with you.

        He anticipated that you would contact him on his Birthday, and gives you a Silent Treatment. If you initiate contact again, you will give him delicious fuel, on top of the Thought Fuel he has feasted on so far (knowing that you would react with concern if you did not get a response).

        He is your EX. The discard already happened. I know why you would want to stay friends with him, but it is not doing you any good! You cannot heal with him in your life. No Contact is the golden rule here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Entirely correct.

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi HG!

        2. Jenna says:

          Thx matilda! But no discard ever took place. I escaped, and he hoovered me back with his crying and threats to kill himself.
          After that, he was the one who requested that we stay ‘best friends forever.’ I was hesitant at first but said yes after i blocked him a few times expressing what i thought of his past silences. Eventually, after becoming his friend, i started to feel badly for his depressive state and said i would help him come out of it. And luckily, i succeeded. He is no longer suicidal.

      5. Matilda says:

        “Entirely correct.”

        Thank you, HG. Once the truth sinks in, it’s clear.

      6. Matilda says:

        You’re welcome, Jenna.

        Yes, I know that you escaped. In my mind, discard starts during the devaluation phase. All those little acts of rejection, that’s already ‘discard’ to me. Him ending the relationship, or you escaping, that’s secondary with regard to the fact that the relationship is over.

        The problem with the term ‘discard’ is that it indicates *finality* where there is none!! It would be so much easier if they just left for good, but they always return. So, it is actually just disengagement. WE have to turn disengagement into proper discard!

        He has no right to request anything, and you do not owe him anything. His desire to stay friends with you is an act of selfishness: it will keep you from moving on! Mine also wanted friendship… it nearly broke me. Furthermore, his threats of suicide are meant to keep you bound to him! He counts on your compassion to come running to him, to do his bidding. If his depression was genuine, then kudos to you that you helped him, but this cannot remain your responsibility.

        And lastly, how would you feel if your current partner was still in contact with his ex, and displayed such a visceral response to an unanswered text message from her?

        Your ex is using you. Only you can stop it.

        1. Jenna says:

          Thx matilda. I feel so moved by the care and support frm everyone here. Thank you frm the bottom of my heart.

      7. Narc affair says:

        Mla…your post to jenna was so very true!!! Id bet money on it that he will react how you predicted. Ive had this happen before in a past relationship. They do know what theyre doing and that it causes anxiety thats why they do it. Its the msg that they didnt thjnk about you as much as you fretted over them. It is chipping away the confidance of that person while making themselves seem they dont need us. Its so toxic 🙁
        Jenna dont lose your current partner whose good to you over this narcissist. Youve got a future with this guy not the narc.

        1. Jenna says:

          Thx narc affair but rn i am expecting no response frm him. I am assuming he is dead.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            No Jenna. That is letting him off too easy. He’s busy with new supply to celebrate his birthday on the new beautiful path he’s on. He is not dead.
            Your current boyfriend was most gracious soothing you. If I was dating someone who had that strong of a physical and emotional reaction because an EX did not respond to a birthday text, I would be telling them to figure out if they really want that person to be an ex, and wondering if they would feel that strongly for me.
            I do not want to see you creating an easy out for him, so when he returns back to the land of the living, you’ve subconsciously rationalized something horrible happened preventing him from texting yesterday and you allow yourself to respond. If you respond when he Hoovers, 2 words – F*k Off!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No that’s Fuel. Don’t respond at all to him

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            Ha! I did say IF she responds!

          4. Jenna says:

            I like your idea. Will it wound him?

          5. Indy says:

            Yep. It will wound him. It will hurt him when he sees his on call “friend”, at HIS beck and call, not yours, is not providing fuel. BTW, THAT is not a true friend. Friendships are reciprocal. Ditch the arse.

          6. windstorm2 says:

            Hey Indy! Hope you’re having a good day. It’s a lovely morning here!
            Rather off-topic, but several times you’ve used the word “arse.” I’ve never heard a fellow American use this word except in satire. Is that a colloquialism from New England or were your parents maybe from somewhere else? Just curious. Good thing I’m not a cat! 🐈

          7. Indy says:

            Hi Windstorm2,
            Nah, in this case it felt cleaner than outright saying “azz”. I borrowed 😉
            I will say where I grew up, we used “bloody” a lot.That was a colloquialism from Vermont, probably borrowed from England. My mother had some odd pronunciations that suggest she came from elsewhere though we knew little of her background as she was orphaned. She said odd things like “poym” for “poem”, “Feelm” for “film” and over did the r’s a bit. My father spoke without much of an accent. I used to be accused of being Midwestern because of a lack of noticeable accent. Every now and then though, it slips into wherever I am living. In Boston, it slipped briefly. Now Atlanta, I say Y’all more than “you guys” now. LOL

            I hope you are doing well up there in Kentucky. It is lovely here as well. Hope it isn’t too hot up there 🙂

          8. windstorm2 says:

            Hey Indy,
            Anything above 75 is too hot for me! Always thought I should have been born in Canada! Problem with KY summers is it’s almost always muggy – humidity often in the high 90’s, with little to no wind. My daughter lives in KS where it’s always windy. That gets old but it’s nice in the summer! Since she’s popping out a new baby almost every summer (she wants 7, this year’s is #4). I spend a big part of the year out there anymore.
            Glad to hear you no longer say “you guys.” That always creeped me out!

          9. Indy says:

            Awww congrats Windstorm, to a new grandchild 🙂 7?? Holy cow! Yeah, “you guys” is a bit rough sounding. LOL

          10. Jenna says:

            He’s been ditched. But i’m not done with him yet. I am so angry that he put me through 2 days of hell, that i feel i must carry out revenge. Let’s see if i can carry it through. Because then i have to be prepared for the smear.
            If i just leave him be, he will be content because he said i remind him of his past and his past haunts him. So by going nc, i would be doing him a favor. I would rather wound him.

          11. windstorm2 says:

            Jenna no contact is the best advice. If it bothers you too much to just cut him off, though, you could do what I do when emailing mine gets too stressful. I send my Moron in Munich a very emotionless message that I need a break from him and I set a time limit for him to not contact me. I’ve just recently told mine I need one of these breaks and not to contact me until after the first of the year. Now if he sends me a message, I can ignore it and not feel bad that he doesn’t know why I’m not answering.
            The first time I did this he erupted with some insults and references to my being crazy (which I never dispute!😊), but anymore he just withdraws, probably in silent fury. When the time runs out he will contact me again. And if he doesn’t? Well my life will just remain easier without him.

          12. Jenna says:

            Windstorm2, if i don’t answer my ex, i would not feel bad if he doesn’t know why. I don’t feel i need to explain myself first. His acts this wknd have totally crushed me. He’s never been this mean to me before.

          13. windstorm2 says:

            Ok Jenna, just throwing out possibilities. That’s one of the beauties of a forum like this. You can take what you need and ignore the rest. Best of luck to you! 😊

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Ignore? Ignore?! How dare you!!

          15. windstorm2 says:

            From US, HG!! Ignore what she hears from US! Not from YOU! Heaven forfend!!! How can you think I would commit such blasphemy on your blog?!? 😝

          16. HG Tudor says:

            You redeemed yourself!!

          17. windstorm2 says:


          18. Jenna says:

            We would never ignore you HG. In fact, some of us are so dependent on you and your expertise. 💗

          19. Jenna says:

            Windstorm2, i appreciate you giving me some alternatives to handle this situation. Thank you.

          20. windstorm2 says:


          21. Jenna says:

            Clarece, i know HG will be mad but i just checked my ex’s fb. He posted a new profile pic over the wknd with 2 friends (males). He had deleted his profile pic after i escaped him (10 months ago) because he said he can’t look at himself in the mirror nor take pictures of himself, because he doesn’t like what he sees (despite being physically attractive). It was the exposure that led him to that shame. Well, when i saw the new profile pic after that space had been blank for 10 months, i again could not breathe. I took my 2nd anti-anxiety pill of the day. The panic didn’t decrease. So i took one more. It still didn’t decrease. Then i knew i have to take matters into my own hands and find out once and for all if i’m blocked. I called him. It rang twice then went to voice mail. My msg- ‘hi, i just wanted to say happy bday. I tried texting you a couple of times but did not get a reply so i got very worried. I got a panic attack yesterday and again today and had to take anti-anxiety meds again. Anyways, pls reply soon. Hope you had a great bday wknd.’
            Normally in the past, if he learns about me taking extra meds or having a panic attack, he calls me immediately to help. So that’s what i’m hoping my call will provoke. All i want right now is the panic attack to subside. I don’t even want him. Rn, i think i hate him. And when/if he returns, i want to do the discard.
            My SO doesn’t understand my pain. Nor does he care very much. In fact, i could barely breathe and i was hyperventilating (after seeing the fb pic), but SO decided to accept his friend’s invitation for dinner, and left me in that state. He told me to just snap out of it.

          22. MLA - Clarece says:

            Jenna, I suggested you call the number and at most leave a simple happy B-Day message (or it could have looked like an innocent butt dial). I did not say leave a damsel in distress message. Now you’ve made a move that always led to a deep conversation in the past and you’re hoping this flushes him out to be concerned about your health. I take it the call back didn’t come right away this time.
            I get having that punch in the gut feeling when you see new info, or they behave hurtfully.
            But this is exactly why I’ve always shunned JN’s requests to be friends or just civil to each other. It lets him off the hook only. When one person likes another in that way and it can’t be reciprocated, it’s too hurtful to the one who has feelings. I think you included your high anxiety state in your message so if he calls, you have a reason to go off on him. You’re in denial that he cares deeply or is really your friend.
            And when you calm down, you have a bigger problem now with your new boyfriend. Honestly if I witnessed someone reacting and carrying on like you have for two days over what started as just no response to a birthday text to an ex boyfriend, I would have had to leave also and find some friends to hang out where I felt wanted. I really don’t blame him one bit. You are coming across like you would dump his butt in a heart beat if your Narc begged for a chance at a real relationship. Not cool at all.
            This texting only relationship that has been on your Narc’s timewatch and for his convenience just got bumped when he got plans he seemed better.
            You’ve allowed this to consume you for two days plus now you’ll be on pins and needles waiting for his call back. Sweetie, tough love here, but you do need to snap out of it.
            With the exception of mine “mistexting” me around Mother’s Day, he has stayed away for the most part, almost two months since I messaged him with something that wounded one of his pillars. He never had my back. I’m doing so much better finally rid of all his push pull antics.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            Jenna, rather than allow your emotional thinking to swamp you as you worry about the narc, whether he is okay, why he hasn’t responded and what he is doing – because this is what is causing your anxiety et al, you need to apply cool, hard logic as follows :-

            He is a narcissist. He does not love you. He does not care about you. He never did. He never will. This episode is your wake-up call. Use it.

          24. Indy says:

            Hi Jenna,
            I am going to back HG up on this firmly. HG just said exactly what we DBT therapists say to clients when in crisis…get to logical mind. DBT was created for those with extreme emotion mind, like BPD. So, the next question you probably have is HOW do I get into Logic Mind when I am in Emotion Mind. Through mindfulness activities that are intense, intense senses to get out of your mind first…get out of your head and focus on outside senses.

            Here are a few to try:
            Make a self sooth box of the 5 senses and use it. Make it portable, if you leave the house a lot. Put in purse or back pack.
            When you keep thinking of ex, keep purposefully turning your mind to your mindfulness focus. You can focus on a rock, on music, on nature, on mani/pedi, on a hot bath, (Anything with the 5 senses)…repeat over and over. If you get distracted by thoughts of him, do not judge yourself, just turn back, like making a U-turn in your mind….back to the taste, sound, smell, visual, touch or activity you are doing.

            Directions on how to make one:

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Thanks Indy.

          26. Indy says:

            Anytime! You were speaking my DBT language 🙂

          27. HG Tudor says:

            I was mirroring. You know how I roll.

          28. Indy says:

            Ha ha ha!!!

          29. Jenna says:

            Thank you indy. I appreciate you taking the time to find and post the link. I will start calling you my friend now. And clarece, windstorm2, superxena, love, matilda, narc affair, and Ah oh too. And you too narc angel, whether you like it or not😉

          30. Indy says:

            Absolutely, and am honored. We are here for you! Keep up the good fight!! Some of it may sound like tough love, though like HG says, the “cold hard facts” is sometimes what we need when in the fog. It balances our emotion minds and brings them into Wise Mind. With balance and some emotional distance, we can see more clearly and strategize best.

          31. Jenna says:

            Thank you indy. And thank you for accepting my friend request lol. I sound like my ex now- ” do you want to be my friend? Thank you. I love you for that.”
            What a liar!

          32. Indy says:

            Just do you know. I do DBT on myself. I have a couple self soothe kits that evolve over time. If you make one, I will share what I have in mine 😊

          33. windstorm2 says:

            Indy, you’ve mentioned “self-sooth kits” several times now. I’ve always self-soothed with food – you can see the problems there – literally. You’ve got me intrigued as to other (less self-destructive) possibilities.

          34. Jenna says:

            If i make one. Rn i’m still so overwhelmed by everthing he said, i feel like sleeping lol. But thank you for willing to share that information.

          35. Indy says:

            Hi Jenna, Get rest. This is self care to get proper rest. Now, we all need to learn how to self soothe and not rely on others to take care of our emotions. It is ultimately our own job. When you have a panic, this is when you use this kit. When you are overwhelmed, this is when you put it in play. When we were kids, we never learned how to self soothe as it is likely our parents never knew how to teach us or never really soothed us effectively. THus, we grew up with this inability and finding ourselves relying on boyfriends and friends to soothe us. It isn’t bad to rely on friends, no. But, it can be overwhelming for another person to always be the soother for another person. This is why it is important to learn to take care of out own feelings. To not be dependent on others to the point of our own detriment.

          36. Jenna says:

            Very true indy.

          37. Jenna says:

            I will HG. Thank you.

          38. Jenna says:

            I couldn’t tolerate the pain in my chest. So finally i emailed him. He called me this morning saying that he got my email, but not my bday text nor my voice msg. He said ‘probably because i blocked you when i realized the past is haunting me.’
            I told him off. I said i helped you so much because i couldn’t see you in your depressive state, i kept reading about npd to try to understand you instead of blame you, and after all that you block me? Didn’t you think how that will hurt me? He replied ‘i thought you would just move on with your life.’ I said ‘no, it caused me to freeze up and shake, have an ongoing panic attack.’ He then said ‘then i think we need to be friends forever.’ I said ‘i am scared to be your friend now. You are capable of anything at anytime.’ He said ‘sorry but i’m willing to help you now.’ I said ‘after what happened this wknd, i lost my trust in you. You scare me. U hurt my family, i hurt yours. I will have a talk with your religious mom and reveal to her about your casual sex websites. I have pictures to prove it. Goodbye.’ And then I blocked HIM! He must be panicking. I dont care. He’s blocked me in the past, but only for 10 minutes max. He always feels bad (cognitively) then unblocks immediately. But this was 2 entire days! I will not forgive him and i will take revenge.

          39. HG Tudor says:

            You gave him plenty of fuel.

          40. MLA - Clarece says:

            Well worth it. Sometimes it’s just not about the fuel anymore on our side. Besides he already knew he had her worked up between the texts, call and then an email. She won’t be needing to take anymore anti-anxiety pills now over this for the rest of the week.

          41. Jenna says:

            Hopefully not.

          42. MLA - Clarece says:

            The correct answer is definitely not! 🙂

          43. Jenna says:

            I had to take one today when i received the email and read the last 2 lines : “you’re no longer in my heart. I don’t need your negativity in my life”
            I mean, when have i been negative? I only tried to help him. Yes, i brought up the past often, but i couldn’t help it. Maybe that’s the negativity he’s referring to.

          44. HG Tudor says:

            And yet again you are continuing to analyse what he has written to you so you perpetuate his hold on you. I need to drive my Gauntlet of Brutal Honesty into your mush!

          45. Jenna says:

            Huh? I don’t understand. Pls expand if you have a minute. Is it wrong to analyze his lines? I’ve made progress though, no?

          46. Indy says:

            Hi Jenna,
            Well, one Narc down! Now, I would totally block and go No Contact now. Perfect time. You got your anger off your chest. You saw his true colors. You left him with the thought of threating to out his side sex activities to his mother. For now, that is plenty of punishment for him. Let him panic in your silence as you detox off his poison. Starve him of fuel. He is triggering your Intense emotions and he is sooooo not worth it. Brush those shoulders off, girl!!


          47. Jenna says:

            Thx indy, but he wants no contact frm me. He said ‘i don’t need your negativity in my life’ and that his past sins ie. me, haunt him, thus his reason for blocking me. I’d rather do something that he doesn’t want. I don’t know if i’ll actually send those indecent pics of him on the casual sex websites to his mom, though i really want to. But my My SO told me not to. And also, god forbid the religious lady have a heart attack or stroke. He is her golden and super religious (ahem, ya right) child.

          48. Indy says:

            Hi Jenna,
            It’s an illusion that he wants no contact. He wants you when he wants you, on his watch, not yours. He is likely pursuing another Intimate now and telling his friends you are a “crazy ex that is obsessed with me”. He is getting positive sympathy fuel from his primary and secondaries (friends and family) and negative fuel from you. They like fuel contrast and looking like the victim. Remember HG taught us this. If you go No Contact, this is how it will go…he will be quiet for a period of time (may be a week, maybe months) as he is pursuing others. Then he will come back to Hoover you under the false pretense of forgiveness, that he “misses” his “friend”. The tough part will be to resist!! you need to start the exorcism of his memory. Read HGs books No Contact and Exorcism, it helps get him out of your head. I read and it got me through. It’s an addiction. Push pull addiction. Only you can stop it or you will be in panics regularly. Speaking from experience here girl. Revenge is for when you have cold logic. You can always do it latter. Or you may choose that it isn’t worth it. Right now, it feels like an intense pull to react. He wants it. Truest. It’s fuel.

          49. Jenna says:

            Thx indy. As you know, i’m borderline and my emotions change drastically within hours. After yesterday, i started thinking that i’m giving him exactly what he wants (NC) and i felt like i failed. I started to feel angry at myself and began shouting at everyone around me (not fair to them). I still feel hurt by his words though HG doesn’t want me analyzing his words. But i don’t understand why.

          50. Jenna says:

            Indy, pls see my comment to matilda at the very bottom of this page. As you suggested to report about my no contact here, i have done so. I appreciate your time.

          51. Indy says:

            Day Two, Look at You **Happy Dance**
            Yay!! Jenna, I am proud of you. He is hovering now, seeking your fuel. And you are not responding which is depleting him of your fuel. This is the ultimate pay back. Good job girl!!!!! Hang in there, sweety. It is so so hard to not respond. I know, I have a hard time holding back at times too.
            Sending positive vibes!!

          52. Jenna says:

            Hello indy and other friends,

            No contact day 3- i did not get any email nor any phone call frm my ex. So my panic attack started all over again. Last yr when he hoovered me, i received 50 phone calls and 100’s of text msgs in 3 days. This year, only 1 email and 3 phone calls in 3 days. I began to realize my fuel was losing significance in his life. I felt rejected. I cannot tolerate rejection. I started shaking again, my chest felt constricted, and the tachycardia was sky high. So i took an anti-anxiety pill along with a beta blocker (it slows the heart). Well this worked wonders. So i thought i don’t need him. I just need the combination of these pills. But unfortunately, the relief only lasted one hour. Then all the symptoms returned- the chest pain, the shortness of breath, the shaking, the difficulty walking. I obviously can’t take these pills every hour or that would be overdosing. The maximum is 3x per day. So now what do i do? I am completely non-functional, cannot drive, cannot cook, i am restless, agitated, frustrated, suicidal, and hurting pple around me by yelling and shouting. I tried self soothing. Nothing was working. And believe me, the physical pain was very real and intense. My mind was not functioning, and i said some things that i would never say when not in panic mode. I knew i had to do something to get myself out of this.
            I am now theorizing that for borderlines and co-dependents, the feeling of rejection may be similar to the feelings that narcs get when low on fuel.
            Finally, i replied to his email. I listed all that i had done for him without uttering a complaint and stated that he should have considered that before blocking me. I felt a little better. He replied promptly and said he wanted to clarify 2 days back, but i cut him off by blocking him. Then i called him. He answered immediately. He said ‘first stop crying. All we needed to do was clarify things. That’s why i tried calling u three times but u did not reply. Stop crying now. Don’t you remember you told me that i could block you whenever i want?’
            (Yes, i did say that, but i only said it because i thought it would have the opposite effect (that he would never block me) because he would want to assert his control by defying me.)
            ‘Stop crying now. I will NEVER block you again. Now breathe in, hold it for 2 seconds, now breathe out. Let’s repeat this 3x more.’ So i did the stupid breathing exercise with him. ‘Do you feel better now? You know, we weren’t texting much anyways. I thought u forgot about me. Anyways, now i will talk to you everyday for the next 3 days. I just want you to be happy. How should i know my blocking would have such consequences on even the pple around you?’ I said ‘ok, i’ll go now.’ He replied ‘why? You need to go? Let’s talk a little longer.’
            Funny thing is, as soon as the rejection by him was lifted, i didn’t want him anymore. I just wanted the rejection lifted i guess. Now i didn’t even feel like talking to him.
            My panic symptoms vanished and my brain started functioning again. I know pple here will not agree with what i did. I was even considering not writing about it. But i wanted HG to know what some extreme borderlines/co-dependents go through so he can have an accurate idea to build upon, since he says he learns from observing our behavior also.
            I am sorry if i have disappointed anyone. Yes, i receive alot of support here. But the truth is, at night when i was pressing my heart down firmly to control the tachycardia, reminding myself to breathe, i was all alone.
            In the past 10 yrs of therapy, no psychiatrist nor therapist have recognized this separation anxiety in me. When i point it out to them and tell them that i was separated from a loved one at the age of 3, they write it in their notes but never address it again (6 psychiatrsts, 4 therapists). So therapy didn’t help either. I knew i have to ultimately take care of myself.
            However, after this incident i no longer consider my ex as kind, as needing to be healed, needing my help etc. I see him for exactly what he is – a lying, manipulative, fuel extracting robot. I will not help him any longer. But i cannot break ties with him either, for the sake of my health.
            I am sorry if i have disappointed anyone. I request that you pls be gentle with the comments as i am still recovering frm what i consider a very difficult week. Thank you for reading.

          53. Jenna says:

            Actually, on the phone he first pretended he didn’t know why he wasn’t receiving my texts. Then he finally admitted he blocked me. I asked him why he would do thst when just a few wks ago he asked me if i want to be his friend. He replied ‘i just felt. But i’ll unblock you now.’ Anyways, i questioned him for abt 10 min. But he was on his lunch break so he had to go. I then continued the questioning in whatsapp, starting with ‘thx for unblocking me.’ Because he has practised cognitive empathy all the time with me, i could not understand this blocking move. I kept asking questions, telling him friends don’t do this type of thing, he is not a true friend etc. He tried to apologize and say ‘then we need to be friends forever.’ I wasn’t going to fall for it again. His mother is like your matrinarc. Her neglect and high expectations also contributed to him becoming a narc. He is always trying to gain her approval, even in adulthood. So he would really care if i exposed him to her. So thats what i threatened at the end. Im sick and tired of being a panic stricken, shaking, hyperventilating, pathetic excuse for a human being. I will get my revenge by exposing him to her! I hope i have the courage to do it. And i know he’ll smear me afterwards.
            After he realized i blocked him, he emailed me this after 10 min:

            ‘Do whatever you feel like doing. I could careless, I lost some family already and could lose everyone. I learned to live alone. Hope God makes it easy for my family.

            There is a saying in our parts- you no longer have a place in my heart, it’s like that. I dont need your negativity in my life.


            I felt like replying ‘i never had a place in your heart’ but i ignored it. I felt anxious again because he had the last word but i controlled myself and did not reply. 1.5 hrs later, he calls me. I didn’t answer. I think he is panicking.

          54. MLA - Clarece says:

            He seriously blocked you? When there wasn’t even a fight? I could get why JN would on occasion try to block (I usually did it first after I went off on him). And he’s playing dumb to how that would affect you?
            I swear, I want to lock him and JN in a padded room and let them go fuel-less for months on end….bad, bad people.

          55. Jenna says:

            Lol! Do it clarece, do it! How i wish…

          56. Jenna says:

            Oh i forgot to answer one question. No, i would not go back to my narc for a real relationship if he offered. Friendship was ok, because he would text only weekly or once every two weeks. I could not handle living with him. I realized frm this blog that it’s v hard to live with a narc. To be with him all the time, i would be faced with the worst treatment. I don’t want that for myself. But yes, i could handle the friendship because communication was infrequent so he was always v kind. But i don’t want friendship anymore either.

          57. MLA - Clarece says:

            I just saw your other post describing the dynamics with your new boyfriend and feeling pressed to date him to please your family. This whole episode this weekend could be a catalyst to just walk away from that too. You clearly aren’t into him (being he sounds like a cold fish). You can’t date someone to please your family. And he probably caught on by your visceral reaction to things this weekend that he’s not number 1 in your heart.

          58. Jenna says:

            Thx clarece. But just like i was a sucker to my narc, i am a sucker to my family. They would be heartbroken if i left my SO. I look at it this way: my family raised me, invested in my education (i never had to take a student loan), and they have certain expectations frm me with regards to career, partner, family, etc. I feel i should try to honour that. I’ll be fine. Hey, my SO changes the oil in my car, fills my gas, brings groceries, loves to cook, brings my medication. He is not ideal emotionally, conversationally, nor is he affectiomate, but i can live with it. The way i see it, not every man is perfect anyways. Emotional support and conversation i get frm my gf’s and my mom. Just yesterday, due to the wknd’s incident, i suggested to my SO that if he wants to leave me he can. He said he doesn’t want to.

          59. MLA - Clarece says:

            Jenna! Get a backbone. Your family will get over it. All that they did for you was to make you an independent, smart, productive person in society that can take care of herself.
            You’re headed towards loneliest marriage in the world if you stay on the path you’re on.

          60. Jenna says:

            Thx for your concern clarece but right now i just can’t disappoint my family. They’ve expressed disappointment before when i wanted to leave him, and intervened to get us back together. Like i said, he fills the gas in my car! Lol!

          61. Jenna says:

            And he already got 105 likes on his fb pic. I wonder if those 105 pple have any clue what he’s putting others (eg. me) through, and if they would still like his pic if they were to know. I think i should send his past pic frm the casual sex websites to some important pple in his life. He will definitely come grovelling back at that point begging me to stop. But i don’t know if i have the courage to do that.

          62. MLA - Clarece says:

            Wow! FB is all smoke and mirrors for everything to be all happy, happy, happy!
            This just triggered a memory from right after I first found HG. JN pulled one of his stunts of promising a visit the baling and I tore into him. He lashed out with the worst character assassination ever at me with body shaming comments and all kinds of hurtful comments. It was numbing. Then a week or so later, his mom posted a picture to his FB page that got tons of likes (especially from girls) of him walking his new pet cat from a no-kill shelter on a leash in their yard. She called it “a man and his cat”. I mean he couldn’t look any more All American, good guy next door. It was nauseating…

          63. HG Tudor says:

            An excellent succinct example of the power of contrast and triangulation in the narcissistic dynamic.

          64. Jenna says:

            Thx HG.

          65. Jenna says:

            They’re dusgusting filthy pieces of trash.

      8. Matilda says:

        “he said ‘i will sometimes say i love you, […] but this time don’t misunderstand that love to be anything more than friends.”

        Oh my God. That’s the stuff my triggers are made of. The sadism in these words… it does not hurt any more… I can now see it for what it is.

    2. Nasty says:

      Hi mla
      I agree wholeheartedly! Thats the rational healthy way to deal with it but a narcissist is so hung up on themselves and terrified of rejection or letting go of control thatd be a huge no no to them. Instead triangulation is the better leverage to create jealousy and get her to try harder and feed the fuel. When she said it didnt bother her i could see this really being a piss off. Ive been in this exact situation and pretended the same exact thing of not being affected and got major passive aggressive punishments. Along with the cold shoulder.
      I didnt know HGs father or that family but im guessing his dad was a codependant and very much emotionally beaten and controlled by his wife. Thats the feeling i get. She more than likely idolyzed hg and maybe triangulated them agajnst each other when she needed to. If thats the case my heart breaks for that poor man. To be caught between two narcs like that would be stifling and very lonely. He sounded like a peacekeeper of sorts. He shouldve stood up to his wife but most victims know its a struggle to do so.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        No doubt Dad was a peacekeeper. Seems a gentle spirit and soft spoken. I imagine with HG being the first born, MatriNarc was most possessive of him and probably had all kinds of manipulating triangulating tactics. It may be why the Dad did try to do more to protect Rachael and Lennox?
        I always start to worry if the speculating over HG’s parents hit triggers for him. Obviously his books like Little Boy Lost, The Creature, etc that will cover his childhood family life are taking longer for him to write, naturally drudging up painful memories. Sessions with the doctors on these topics are irritating and draining.
        I’ll prob back out of the discussion now tonight as I don’t want to overload.

  15. Me says:

    Scary.. but I can relate. The last meeting with N he wanted me to cry out of relief.. said things to get the tears flowing and held me tight and kisses my head. I didn’t break a singe time … he did not like that… he wanted me to cry….
    Oh well.. I’ve been crying every day for two years now… many times a day.. and finally I feel a relief after a good cry.. so I guess I’m healing big time!

  16. Mrs Linton says:

    HG says he does understand that he causes huge hurt, he just doesn’t care. It’s because he understands the extent that he does it, to create fuel. He would probably like the thought that you would be having your ptsd treatment talking about him. Even better if he was simultaneously getting fuel from another.
    Anita was almost stalking you,except for the fact you wanted her to. What I find fascinating is the breadth of feeling that she would have had, abandonment separation anxiety shame disappointment love.
    Though you know you were hurting her, would you have known the breadth of the emotion as well as the depth I felt that my ex had so much power over me that he understood every last nuance of my emotions but maybe not. The fuel must be too exciting and override everything close to

  17. Jenna says:

    “I ducked back so she could not see me.” Now that is just cowardly! Face her like a man!

  18. Crying is not a game. One thing omitted in your games of tears is the emotional cost we bear at each extraction.
    You say you understand but you really don’t. After repeated manipulations we suffer complex PTSD symptoms, we lose memory, we have suicidal ideation, etc.
    You really don’t understand, same way we don’t understand your reality. You know about it intellectually but you will never know the real depth of the pain you and your kind cause.

  19. MLA - Clarece says:

    I remember asking you previously when you posted this if you ended up hooking up with Lucy and you said you did.
    I’m curious now if during those few weeks you were hanging out with Lucy, but intently tracking Anita’s daily, check-in call, what was fueling you more? The proximate attention from Lucy? We’re you able to be completely in the moment with her hanging out? Or was all of it mainly done to punish Anita for making you feel powerless during that one call when you withdrew and went silent?
    I’m also wondering if this set the stage later on when divorcing your wife? No doubt feeling wounded by her, I’m sure you had new supply you were entertaining. But was your mind always going back to how that would make your ex feel and getting negative fuel? Or are you in the moment relishing new positive fuel?

  20. amsodone says:

    oops.. i thought I was responding to the silent treatment blog… I am binge blog reading after time away so must have gotten them mixed up.
    So, I will attempt to connect the two… silent treatment blog meets crying game blog… In the music of Steve Perry…”Who’s crying now?”

  21. amsodone says:

    I recall that first silent “treatment”, and then subsequent STs; I did not know at that time abandonment issues were purposefully calculated and triggered by him… bassifsh.
    Would have been good to know then, but I am so glad I know now! Instead of abandoned, I am empowered… now so good to be at the fortress! It is he that now feels abandoned.
    Thank you HG, perhaps you are an inverted empath, haha

  22. Sarah says:

    1. Matilda says:

      Colin is the man! 🙂 … our dear Fitzwilliam is not a narc, thank goodness!!

    2. Narc affair says:

      I love colin firth!!! Pride and prejudice was a favorite! Swoon 😄

      1. My favorite actor. And man.

      2. Sarah says:

        The King’s Speech, where he’s swearing angrily during his therapy session to help improve his stutter… Mmm. If HG could re-enact this script piece in an interview, one would be most satisfied.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I can do this in an audio consultation.

          1. Sarah says:

            Is there anything you can’t do, HG?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I can’t roll my tongue

          3. MLA - Clarece says:

            But can you tie a cherry stem in a knot with your tongue? lol

          4. AH OH says:

            Yes and more than once if the stem is long enough. I did it when I was a kid getting my Shirly Temples. Does not make you better at anything other than tying a knot with a cherry stem.
            Now, can you swallow a sword? 😉

          5. MLA - Clarece says:

            Ohhhh I loved Shirley Temples. My parents got them for me when we went to Red Lobster. Lol
            Swallow a sword? Is that code for something? Lol JN was always mighty impressed by my lack of a gag reflex, so maybe so.

          6. AH OH says:

            You go girl! Or he had a small one. My narc was on the smaller side. I mentioned he was broke! lol

            What I discovered with time on earth. (I will share my discoveries by a preface like this from now on) I can stop the gag refex if I am really into the guy, I believe I unhinged my jaw for my ‘the one” once upon a time. He asked how I did it. I said I don’t know for sure but it was easy. (he is a beautiful man and I will always love him) Other than this, I will gag on my toothbrush.
            Only someone who is special to me will get my best.

            I have some funny stories on sizes. One guy told me once he wanted to have a girl deep throat him and let him try in the back door. I told him no normal woman could do it and he needs a gay guy to do this. BIG! The kind you want off of you after you get off.
            Another guy I dated was no bigger than my thumb…..hard. This is very sad for him and me too come to think about it.

            I have mentioned this before in a post somewhere on here. HG can pinpoint time and date. He is cool like that.

            I hope you do not mind that I went off trail HG. You know who I really want. There is my pilot and then there is you. Both very unattainable. I guess I stay safe this way or is it the other way around.

          7. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hmmm… I’m thinking this took a turn way more for HG’s benefit than mine. It’s all cool. Lol

          8. AH OH says:

            I wrote 4 paragraphs for you if you choose to read them. So I am perplexed with your comment.

            Only one paragraph is for HG and it all goes back to talking about him as he states in his list of rules. I try not to venture far from them.


          9. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi Ah-Oh. I replied last night and the comment disappeared. I’m not seeing it in moderation.
            I was just kidding with you in fun with regard to your last paragraph. I didn’t mean to confuse you.
            I also saw your comments about your younger two boys and not feeling appreciated and judged by them. I’m sorry that is happening and I hope a breakthrough develops where they soften their view of their mother.

          10. AH OH says:

            Waking up in Quito. Life is good.
            MLA. I have morned over this in the summer of 2015. I have had time to heal. Time does wonders. They are adults and they make their choices. It is disapointing but I will no let it ruin the years I have left. I put it in a box and numb to it. I made life so much easier for them. They are good young men. Productive and well educated. My job is done.
            Thank you for your kind thoughts. I’m sure it will be fine but I feel they betrayed me so I build my wall.

          11. MLA - Clarece says:

            I understand. I have my own walls up now too but I much prefer to build bridges.

          12. windstorm2 says:

            Good philosophy, Clarece!

          13. AH OH says:

            MLA, Yes in a perfect world. But there are times you must just struck a match and burn it down too.
            I believe I do have a few more years on you and tilde will jade you. But as an empathetic, not so much. empathic tendencies are limited ewith me.

          14. Love says:

            Lol, sorry to interject but I was just waiting for a special someone to reply to your comment saying there is scientific evidence that all narcs have small ones. It has to do with their DNA and brain wiring. Scientific papers have been published but are top secret and inaccessible. 😁
            Sorry again. My own inside joke. I will go back to my corner now.

          15. Indy says:

            Hahaha, my kind of humor!
            My “research” in the “field” has shown quite the opposite. “Armed” and dangerous. 😂

          16. Love says:

            Rubbish! What do you mean there is no bone in boner?!? Scientists have proven that the bone does not grow in narcs. It stays an angry little stump. Hence No boner. No bueno.

          17. Indy says:


          18. AH OH says:

            So my sons are Narcs? Well I am screwed.

          19. Jenna says:

            I never fellated my ex narc. I don’t find it romantic.

          20. MLA - Clarece says:

            Um…not romantic? Wait what? Romance flies out the window when when you’re enveloped in complete primal, carnal desire and can devour every inch of each other, front side and back side.
            Shame on your ex-Narc and current boyfriend for not being able to bring that out in you.
            I also read your comment regarding your family expressing “disappointment” when you’ve broached wanting to break things off with the current boyfriend. A lot of people go thru that. Your family aren’t the ones dating him. It’s really not their choice, only an opinion they can give and they’ll get over it. Getting your car filled up with gas is not a reason to stay with someone. You’re perfectly capable of filling up your own tank. As much as you say you’ve done for your family, I’m sure you reciprocate that on an individual basis with each one. Jenna the daughter, Jenna the sister, Jenna the cousin, etc. Jenna the girlfriend needs to compartmentalize what’s best for her between her and current boyfriend and who does jack for making your heart go pitter patter. For four years with JN being on an off, I did try dating other people here and there. He was always on the back on my mind and I think that’s why I would feel so relieved when he would resurface because honestly, no one else was any great shakes either and I felt like I had an escape hatch. You feel so connected to your ex-Narc still because you haven’t connected with anyone else yet, taking out of the equation that it’s an illusion that your ex-Narc created.

          21. Jenna says:

            Hi clarece, my idea of romance is different than other pple’s maybe. This is what my ex and i used to do- cuddle for 3 hrs, i used to stroke his arms, he used to stroke my shoulders, arms, and back. I used to play with his hair. He used to run his fingers through my hair. I used to pull his chest hair until it hurts him (just to bug him). He used to wrap his legs around me. I used to rub my nose on his (i know, corny). I used to press my cheek on his cheek with pressure because i loved him so much. I used to bat my eyelashes against his cheek so he feels a gentle touch. Usually only our shirts would be removed (sometimes aggressively, sometimes gently) because he didn’t want to sin by having intercourse (this was after having intercourse many times in the past though). He would then proceed to touch me with only his fingertips on my unclothed skin and use his lips xxx. I would be laying on him, pressing my lips against his but not kiss him. He would respond by parting one side of his lips into a tender smile (so cute) then we would end up kissing. Then he would pull me onto his chest and wrap his arms around me. It was absolutely amazing for me. I much prefer all these activities to sex and he knew that. Ocasionally though, it would lead to dry sex (non-penetrative sex) if he has a difficult time controlling himself, and if i had put the condom on him in advance.
            My SO is more a wham bam thank you maam kind of guy, and i hate it. That’s why it’s been months since we’ve had sex. I always say i’m tired or that i don’t feel like washing the sheets the next day lol.
            The points you brought up abt my SO are valid. However, there is more to the story than i can reveal here. I don’t mind revealing it to my lovely friends here, but i fear my ex’s NISS’s might be here, and then they would figure out who i am in real life (if they read my other posts too). I cannot take that risk. Because my ex and i never told anyone that we were together. His religious family would never approve of him having a relationship outside of his religious institution. Thx clarece for allowing me to give a description of the romantic times with my ex. Good memories (rather than hate) have been resurfaced for a short time.

          22. Jenna says:

            Clarece, i replied to you in detail but HG has decided not to post it😞
            Well, i do not dare question his decision because he may get furious, he is superior, the master, the king.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            Patience is a virtue.

          24. Jenna says:

            You are correct HG. I just wanted to let clarece know that i wasn’t ignoring her, and repying to others in the meanwhile.
            Have i ever questioned you for not answering my questions that remain in moderation, like other readers have? I believe i never have. I respect all you do here, and i have plenty of patience to wait for answers to queries in moderation. Heck, you need not even answer them if you choose not to. We can certainly not demand that of you. You are gracious enough to give us so much of your time to begin with. And it annoys me when readers ask about their questions that have been in moderation for some time. They are not paying you nor are you their employee.

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Noted. Fair comment

          26. Jenna says:

            Thank you HG.

          27. AH OH says:

            Jenna, the romance is what leads you to the raw sexual encounter. I can understand your stance on this. Many women do not find it enjoyable, but it is about pleasing your partner and yourself.

          28. Jenna says:

            Hi Ah Oh, i understand your point of view. I think the majority of women feel as you and clarece do. But i need to be looking into my partner’s eyes at all times during intimacy. It may have something to do with my fear of abandonment, being bpd. I think you must have left for your trip. I hope you really enjoy it sweety!

          29. AH OH says:

            I have contact now in Quito but will not after 12 noon tomorrow.
            I do not have the desire to constantly look in someone’s eyes. I would like to go to other places in my mind while engaging, of course they are fantasies.

          30. Jenna says:


          31. AH OH says:

            No? Do you mean rolling it on the back of your front teeth to make the rrrr sound or roll it upside down, side to side. I can do both. The more you do it the better you can do it. Try it.
            Can you wiggle your ears? Raise your eyebrows independantly? Make your eyes go in different directions?

          32. HG Tudor says:

            No I mean I can’t roll it.

          33. AH OH says:

            Please explain. Do you mean roll it so the tip faces the backwards. I can do this. Fold it up so the sides so they touch? Yep I can do this.

          34. ballerina9 says:

            HG, don’t be “selfish” (wait, that doesn’t sound right 😉)… you could do the King’s Speech in a video for us to enjoy… might even be some Thought Fuel in it for you…

          35. Indy says:

            Wait wait….we can request these in consultation too? Well hot damn! Hahaha! I got a few ideas…but they are all involving Raphe Fiennes. lol please do the phone scene for me!! You know why!

          36. AH OH says:

            OK! I am buying a session asap so will you please prepare your speech. Thank you.
            I almost told you to prepare instead of asking……….my bad. I already have learned from that one misstep. See how this works?

      3. ava101 says:

        Are you being serious in your response to Jenna, MLA?!
        I wouldn’t even know where to start to answer that but I am getting some protective feelings for Jenna. I’m sure of course that you won’t change your opinion or attachment just like that, Jenna, because of a comment. 😉

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          @ava101 – I am unsure what remark you are referring to that I made to Jenna as your reply comes under one from Narc Affair about swooning over Colin Firth.
          If I was kidding around I usually add an lol at the end. If not I was probably dead serious. I’ve had tons of back and forth with Jenna for a few months being the Narcs we were with behave and communicate so similarly. She knows I think highly of her. If she doesn’t agree with something I said, I’m fine with that. She can let me know.

          1. Jenna says:

            Clarece, i think ava is referring to the comments regarding fellatio, but i could be wrong. It seems like that frm the order it appears here. I have addressed her below. I appreciate her concern but i read your comment with interest and found it ‘sexy’ lol.

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            Ohhhh that? That all started with Ah-OH jokingly making the “swallow the sword” comment. Lol
            I’m glad you get me!! 👊

          3. Jenna says:

            The punch at the end was cute. When my ex and i were getting to know each other, we would use the punch emoji often, in a flirtatious manner. It was obvious we were dying to touch each other, and that’s when i had some idea this relationship might get physical. Worst mistake of my life! 😫
            Never use the punch emoji with a guy! 😫

        2. Jenna says:

          Ava, thank you for feeling protective for me. However, i appreciate all comments here, including yours and clarece’s. If you’re referring to clarece’s comment about me not finding fellatio romantic, it’s fine. Many pple have different sexual preferences. In fact, i read her comment with much interest as it was quite ‘sexy’ lol.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Right there Jenna! Having that interest and finding it “sexy”, there’s a Naughty Jenna dying to come out (for the right guy). Don’t condemn yourself to a lifetime of boredom for “Gas tank” guy. I’m being protective too believe it or not. Lol

          2. Jenna says:

            “Gas tank guy” lolllll! I can’t stop laughing. But you know how relaxing it feels to not have to worry abt filling my own tank! 😂😂😂 I told him the nozzle is heavy for a petite person like me, so he complies.

  23. Sarah says:

    I find your fascination and curiosity over these things attractive. I like how your mind works.
    The large wooden door that chimes and mentions of bannisters just add to the whole Pride and Prejudice feeling for me (The Colin Firth one). Mmm.

  24. SVR says:

    HG what if I was crying in front of him over another man who was treating me bad? I had just met this narc really. He stood there looking into space with no emotion what so ever. The attention was not on him so pray tell his thoughts, remembering a lesser type. Thanks 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The Lesser has no idea why this is happening nor how should he react. He will not understand why you are upset and indeed he will become hugely irritated by it, because he will see it as weakness and when you explain you are upset over someone else he will be wounded because your fuel is being generated as a consequence of someone else and not him. Expect him to make you cry all the more.

      1. windstorm2 says:

        That was so true with my exhusband! My tears always angered him. It didn’t matter what caused them. So did my being sick in any way. Sometimes he would just look away and do nothing. Sometimes he would rant at me for being pathetic and weak.
        When his mother forced him to be in the delivery room for our first child, he laughed at my pain and would lean over and whisper taunts in my ear.
        He’s different now that we’re both getting old and he suffers from many physical complaints himself. Now it gives him an opportunity to compare my sufferings to his own. He no longer reacts with contempt.

      2. SVR says:

        Thank you. He never saw me cry again. I have to say I surprised myself that I never really cried over him. Yes I wanted him but I knew I must not go near him. He was not good looking but I was so brain washed my views changed, even to the point of loving his name. That’s when I thought, what the hell is going on. That’s when the empath became supernova, then discarded and got her answers. Recovery it was.

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