Poll – HG Wants To Know – What Are You?


So, last time it was about those of my kind that you had become entangled with but let’s turn the spotlight on to you (only for a moment though, you know that cannot be allowed for long) and I would like to know how you regard yourself. Do you recognise that you are co-dependent or is that not the case and instead you release that you are a standard empath who has plenty of empathic qualities but you do not go so far as to flagellate yourself as the co-dependent will and you do not behave in the manner of the Super Empath? Are you that Super Empath who is a mixture of narcissistic traits but you have greater and more numerous empathic traits. Perhaps you are a normal who has been ensnared by our kind and you have few narcissistic traits and few empathic ones and you often wonder why you somehow became entangled with us. Or do you not know, if so, state as such and keep reading! Let me know and also tell me why you consider yourself to fall in to that category.

What are you?

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732 thoughts on “Poll – HG Wants To Know – What Are You?

  1. W says:

    Well according to HG I’m a standard magnetic
    All u assholes get to be super Empaths lol
    Call the super empath a Narcy Empath and watch suddenly nobody wants the title

    1. SuperEmpath says:

      Hell no! As a super empath, I am totally fine with having narcissistic traits. My own family has been being critical and criticsizing me lately and I feel supernova lately. And i am losing my empathy for them. Guilt is a prison. Without empathy, it feels freeing actually. So, I can understand a narcissist’s perspective when it comes to how emotions are weak and hold us back from attending to our needs and wants. Then the supernova goes away and I’m back to having a lot of damn empathy again. And I found out that I’m a super empath from a consult with hg.

  2. DF says:

    Dear HG, maybe I am not plain normal but a super empath, but to me it looks like I do not collect fuel. I like being complimented and praised, and I was happy about my good grades at school, but I understand that this is not fuel.
    On the other hand I am not sure whether you can remain normal when you are unknowingly dealing with narcissistic individuals again and again.

  3. Bibi says:

    I am a dirty empath, but I don’t know of which school. I kinda like it though, where I can tell people, ‘I am a dirty empath. A very dirty empath.’ 😉

  4. TC says:


    1. NarcAngel says:

      Good one. Whats for dessert?

      1. TC says:

        Appetizer, dinner, desert. It’s all fuel.

  5. Narc affair says:

    My grandparents relationship was exactly like the olsens. My grandmother was the narcissist and my grandpa the codependant and doormat. There were times i sensed he was afraid of her.

  6. Traci says:

    I possess more traits of the Super Empath. I do NOT like to hurt other people’s feelings but…the ex Narc bf was relentless with his games; it was maddening. Nothing short of terrible at its worst moments. And like a light switch, i turned off my sweet side and my not-so-sweet side emerged. He was not happy with this switch, to say the least. Lol. Oh how I enjoyed making life difficult for him. It was quite invigorating once I realized, ‘hey, I can look at the world through his point of view’.
    I recall one particular moment where I purposely–I repeat, purposely– instigated an argument by asking him when he was going to take me home. (mind you, he was under the impression we were about to ‘get busy’ and I would be staying the night.) well, let’s just say that he was a bit taken aback by this sudden shift in my behavior. In my mind I was saying ‘wow. so this is how they do it. this is how it feels to exert power over someone’s emotions. this is what it feels like to emotionally disregulate someone whom you care deeply for, all for the sake of getting a reaction from them.’

    I knew at that moment that I was not ashamed of being an empathic individual. and it only served as a reminder to me that loving others, building them up, encouraging them is what feels natural to me. letting my narcissistic traits shine was necessasry in order to overcome him.

    Thanks H.G. for taking the the time to inquire how we, the prey, rate ourselves.
    your blog is helping many, many people come to their senses. Keep up the good work. 🎀🎀🎀

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and you are welcome.

  7. Claudia says:

    Cookie cutter Super Empath. Found your blog while searching for certain answersituations….. I’m glad I did.

  8. Sniglet says:

    It is not clear to me what I am exactly. HG, you would know better than I do as you are the expert in this subject. There are some narcissistic traits and some empathic traits discussed here which are applicable to me. The creature exists and is suppressed, hence my ability to do “no contact” with those who wrong me, else the emergent consequences could be quite unpleasant, disporportionate and unnecessary. That creature gives me much energy and is consciously directed towards positive actions instead and I achieve more in that way than any revenge could afford me. Self control is an amazing thing – it requires discipline and mental effort. It gives one freedom within normal society but it shackles the wild side. Does that make sense?

  9. Yolo says:

    Lol,” so called effective unit” .

    HG, i get placed on timeout for so called gas lighting or offending others.

    1. NarcAngel says:


      Is that a question or a goal?

      1. Yolo says:


  10. Fool Me 1 Time says:

    HG, I believe it is obtainable,as do many others on the blog! You have to be the one that believes it!! Actually you have to believe in you the way some of us believe in you!!! Xxx

    1. Ali says:

      He has to realize he’s been forced into something by matrinarc… if he had the choice back then would he pick this?

      doesn’t it infuriate you, HG that your choice was taken from you at a young age?
      you’re satisfied with this in your own mind, but are you really? Shouldn’t you have the right to have chosen, you, mighty and top of the food chain?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I understand your point and she attempted to remove the choice but I wrestled it back.

        1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

          HG, did you wrestle it back? Or did you just decide to become like her only worse? You know this is not meant to be mean in any way! I was just curious if perhaps you turned out just like she wanted you too,following the path she had laid out for you and you not even realizing it? You have never even tried the other path? This was written as questions only! I respect and admire you for all your hard work and the way you have helped so many! Xxx

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I understand your intent FM1T. She did not intend for me to turn out like this.

          2. Fool Me One Time says:

            HG, how do you know that for sure? Did she explain what exactly she wanted you to do and be? Xxx

  11. BBYCGN says:

    Well, I am unsure as to what I am, but I do wish I knew the answer.

  12. Some One says:

    You know what really grinds my gears?! Say someone comes into my life, they hang out in my home, they see how I am, it just comes naturally to me to for instance to know what music will lift or change the mood, what movie to play and when, what someone needs to be comfortable, if they’re hungry or thirsty or feeling down, I just know what needs to be done, what any situation calls for, how to help, what to say in the moment, I always have, & I’ll go out of my way, because to me I’m not, but this person sees how I am & they think they have me pegged, as a doormat, someone who is easily manipulated. Am I though?! Am I codependent, or a people pleaser?! What’s wrong with this world?! How did it come to this?! It doesn’t even occur to anyone that its a strength in itself! I get pity or ‘stand up for yourself’ I just sigh and roll my eyes you just don’t get it. I could say no, and what happens?! I appear a different way in that persons mind, because that’s what’s important right?! I don’t care what people think!! At the end of the day, I’m the one left hurting because I wasn’t true to ME!! I chose to follow the crowd to look good!? I’m not even doing anything special, it only looks that way because this world is so cold now!! It takes a strong heart and a lot of courage to stay kind, to stay open, to love with everything you have, to love without games, playing hard to get, or not trying too hard!! Damn it!! No!! I’ll give you so much love you won’t know where to put it all!! It might get me hurt, but at least I was me.. At least I stayed true to who I am.. It takes strength to be an empath, to stay true to your own heart in a world where self sacrifice and motiveless giving are such looked down upon qualities that they turn a person into a target!! Rant over!! 💜

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Some One
      Stop it. Youre giving HG a hard on.

      1. Some One says:

        Lolololol!! I did no such thing.. I’m a lady.. *pokes my tongue out at you then smiles* 🌹

    2. Ali says:

      darn right!

    3. mymasterstoy says:


    4. Windstorm2 says:

      “To thine own self be true.”
      I agree, Someone. If you are happy with who you are and not hurting anyone else, then that is who you should be.
      I’ve been called a doormat, too, but I don’t let it bother me, because I am true to myself. What these people are doing is projecting onto you how they think they would feel if they acted like you. But they are not you. We each have to seek our own path. Do what’s best for you!!!

    5. Claudia says:

      It’s a gift Some One. We are the doctors, the nurses, the carers of this world. The valuable, the ones who save lives and enrich them. We don’t take life, sabotage life or wreck life. Our inner light shines so strong that we instictively know what to do to make others feel better…….if you’re “anything” like me you probably know how to make them feel worse too, such is your insight into people. But you choose to heal rather than wound.

      Without us the world would be a dark, cold and empty place….and no NHS.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        The NHS needs our kind and your kind. If my life is on the line, I want one of my kind operating on me and one of your kind for the recovery thereafter. The detachment we have from people is extremely useful when it comes to cutting people open.

        1. C★ says:

          that statement indirectly confirms some questions I’ve had mulling around in my head…. thx

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

  13. Sophia says:

    I am a very empathetic person, I’d say I have many super empath traits. I can feel the emotions of others and I’m always willing to bounce back and forgive.
    Yet, I’ve done many things that match up with a lesser and it makes me sick to my stomach when I think of these things. I was engaged when I met my mid-range to upper narc. I lied to my fiancé to be with this new man. I left him without a regard. There were times the narc and I fought and I hit him. Sometimes I really wonder if I’m only a super empath to narcissistic people.

    1. mymasterstoy says:

      I also gave up a possible mr right for my Narc. He was an old high school flame that I re-met during a silent treatment. We quickly became engaged. Then the silent treatment was over and he came back. I couldn’t resist. Couldn’t do both so I made myself believe the fiancée wasn’t all that.

      1. Sophia says:

        I hope everything worked out well in the end.

        1. mymasterstoy says:

          Fiancé is gone. He was bipolar and ADHD. Had rather deal with the Narc. He’s better in bed! Lol

          1. Sophia says:

            The things we put up with for a good lay. 😀

  14. P says:

    Answer: a blonde!

  15. Mary says:

    To follow up on the comment a moment ago… HG, do you have any thoughts on what kind of empath that would make me or if I even qualify? I tend to be self-absorbed, consumed with my own feelings a great deal of the time. However, I don’t think narcissist would fit because I do get emotionally attached and love people and my dog. I feel great joy and appreciation when listening to music or when in nature. I hate the idea of my actions or inaction harming anyone. But I am selfish.

  16. Mary says:

    I am not sure if I even am an empath or codependent at all, but have some elements of them. From what I’ve read, they are self-sacrificing and putting others before themselves at all times. They are also highly intuitive. I don’t feel more intuitive than anyone else, and I put my needs first in many cases with trivial things like where to have dinner, etc. I can be a selfish brat about it at times. However, in my marriage, the most basic needs I have for affection and emotional and physical intimacy are NOT met and that is my husband’s choice. My need to feel safe is not met either due to his rages. He has raged his entire life when he’s frustrated, so I know I don’t cause this. Yet, I don’t meet his needs either. Not sure what this makes me and am curious to know.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If you wish to know Mary, then the best way to do so it through consultation.

  17. lynnyrn says:


    My point really is, it doesn’t matter a persons career, or what they look like, or what designer clothes they were. I have been so accustomed to start to believe now because I am not this or that I was not good enough. And I used to like who I was before, before I even knew what I was majoring in!! Now, i am simply not good enough because I am not Asian. Well that I can’t change. I can’t change me anymore. I don’t even know who that is. I’m sorry if I came quickly. Everything has become an attack, all the time.

    1. Yolo says:

      Please keep reading go back and read the different school and cadres, who am I to him, hoover time. Read Sex and the narc, exorcism, and confessions of a Narcissist. Afterwards, if you don’t mind can report back. Share if you have reached a definitive answer. Is he reallly a Narcissist or just a hurt/abused man child?

  18. E. B. says:

    Hello HG,

    Yesterday I found two useful articles with pictures which explain how to allow the Like Button on comments. This is the old Like Button, which shows who has clicked.

    It seems that bloggers can see two dashboards: the new simplified one and the original one. The changes can be made on the old Dashboard only.

    Step One: “How do I get back to the full dashboard on WordPress.com?”

    My Sites –> WP Admin


    Step Two: “How do I enable liking on blog comments?”

    Settings –> Sharing menu.

    Scroll down until you see the “Comment Likes are”- “On for all comments”.


    This applies to WordPress.com only and not to WP.org. I hope this helps.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello EB, thank you for looking to help, but this does not apply to my site as it is a paid site. The interfaces show up differently to those in the article.

      1. E. B. says:

        No problem, HG. I understand. I have also read that paid/business WP sites have a different Dashboard than the free ones. It is not possible to see the old one.

  19. NarcAngel says:

    Theres something not right about the poll leading by a landslide
    with Super Empaths if theyre rare. We’re mucking it up. So Ive been doing some more reflecting and Im considering changing mine to ahem…normal.



    Big weekend Tude. 5,000,000 and the DM concert. My best wishes for you to have a blast on a well earned weekend.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you NA

      1. Yolo says:


        Its hard to reply. I totally( Cali Style) appreciate your response regarding your mission/Vision statement. I aspire to reach personal goals to not only use as a weapon towards narcs but to achieve balance and boundaries. As a narc I know you dont give a shit about the ggod doctors perception of your progress and feel that any inheritance wouldnt be worth listening or reading about our experiences.

        I believe you will become the go to person for information on this behavior. As long as you stay true to self as you see fit.

        I refer people all the time ,either my circle is filled with narcs or mostly normals they are not receptive. Maybe its my delivery, i am working on that.

        Continue success

    2. Yolo says:

      Regarding the movie Girl Interrupted i was confident you would identify. I am not implying you are nuts. Great movie Angelina played that role well. I think she had this sadistic way of trying to get the girls to move from victims but she meant well. Her own demons were greater than she would or could acknowledge. Its been years since i watch it so my memories are vague.


  20. Jody Allen says:

    Good Morning~
    I’ve read each and every comment on here and actually, I’m a little confused. I’m only recently discovering, (reading, listening) about what has been happening to me all these years in every past relationship, so please bear with me..because all my receptors are still not firing properly..
    While I’m very certain that my ex husband fits the Narcissistic profile to a tee (he is currently trying to “win” me back because his marriage ended and my long term abusive relationship ended only three weeks ago…His wife left him only days after I left my SO! Only he is telling me how it’s going to be and what I’m going to do just like it was only yesterday that we were married and not asking) Those, very obvious, red flags in my face are enough to send me running for the hills and truly I would have kept No Contact with him if he hadn’t been harassing our children to the umpth degree, to the point where they were begging me to at least talk to him. This monkey wrench has really compounded my stress levels and made me feel even more out of sorts.
    While my ex husband was the automaton being described in these posts, I’m unclear as to whether the one I’m struggling to get over was a Narcissist or just an abusive asshole? He fits a lot of the criteria of the Narcissistic Profile, (blame shifting, mirroring, tantrums,rages gaslighting, silent treatment) but he loved sex (he ended up just making it about him) He liked and even invited cuddling and human contact. He loved to laugh and loved adventure.He seemed to be very full of life, not a shell devoid of emotion and working at constantly adjusting the mask. Am I over thinking this and trying to put a label on him or am I over thinking this trying to avoid putting a label on him? Have my relationship choices been:
    “Once a Narcissist, Always a Narcissist”?
    “Once you go Narcissist, you never go back”
    (lol, sorry had to put that one in there)
    Or am I just attracted to anyone that will exploit and abuse me? I apologize for being long winded and certainly for the Hampster Wheel that I’m on, but, for me, it’s important to know this.
    Thank you for your patience with me.

  21. Some One says:

    Some personal insights I’ve had thanks this post.. I’ve realised I pose as quite a hard nut to crack, when it comes to the Lesser I’ve known one & he ran, mid range was tempted by high fuel levels but mistook me for a codependent he made a very messy approach by trying to use my PTSD against me & make me cling to him. Personally I find it silly if a couple say things like ‘we changed our mind’ it makes me laugh, if people I’m with group together in one of those circle type things I’ll walk away it just feels awkward. I have a strong personality & views, wants, things to say. I don’t ‘extension’ at all, I’ve been independent since I was 15/16.. Ain’t nobody got time for that!! Lol.. My weakness, & the way I fountained fuel is my abandonment issues, & you can’t fix knowing someone you love can be taken to heaven in a second, or walk away & never come back because its a fact of life!! That’s how my Greater got me the way she did, she made me fall in love & spent the rest of the relationship pretending to be dead, dying or leaving me.. Nothing & no one has ever gotten a hold of me like she did.. Thank you if you made it to the end!! Sorry its long just wanted to share my own experience.. 🌹

    1. Indy says:

      Hi Some One,
      Thank you for sharing your experience here with us all. I just wanted to share that my heart ached when I read this” “you can’t fix knowing someone you love can be taken to heaven in a second, or walk away & never come back because its a fact of life”. Yes, I know. I too feel this deeply. I, too, have abandonment crap and what you wrote was palpable for me. The only thing I have found comforting is being mildly detached, but it is so hard for me. I try to practice the Buddhist notion of loving detachment, though I go in waves. It is a life long wound, knowing that this is reality. I once said to a therapist that it is true, all suffering is related to attachment. He said, “but if you live detached you will be cold and robotic. That is not you.” No, it is not me. Though, I can know my weak spots and keep an eye on them. I know that certain relationships come in this life that help us heal (reparative relationships) and some wound us further. I have had both and both ended. It had to be that way for me.

      No answer or solution here, just know you are not alone in your experience of this.

    2. lynnyrn says:

      Thank You Windstorm2! Very much! I struggled more in my job this year than I ever did before. It was very discouraging. I spent a year in the cath lab. Love cardiac! It’s hard to keep spreading all care around when it’s being used up in a way it’s never been before, dysfunctionally. Thank you to your DIL for her hard work and yours too!!

  22. ava101 says:

    the official relationship where my exnarc condescended to engage in sex was very short lived. That was no reason for him at all though to disengage. I had at that point no idea what I was dealing with, I learned about na4cissism because of the friendship with him. He didn’t want sex and he didn’t to be close but he never let me alone and sent many many messages day and night. He played fullon on me not getting closure from him, etc.I was for many months in a state where I just couldn’t understand anyth8ng anything anymore, nothing made sense. He then kept coming back with “”I love you””,””I miss you””, …but no recommencing of the official relationship and no sex.
    I did go crazy and I did get traumatized.
    It took a long while to notice patterns and to learn about emotional and verbal abuse. It was very subtle with him. No namescalling, no shouting, etc. That I would have known what to make of.
    He also used the fact that we were in the same spiritual group to stay in contact and to use my goodwill and morality.
    It took me a while to go no contact when he got abusive again. In the beginning I thought he would learn not to do certain things when I blocked him then. No chance. I haven’t had contact with him for 7 months – right before I found this blog when that contact had made me break down with c-ptsd – now except for a few e-mails because I had too many open questions a couple of months ago. I got rid of him again but he is also preoccupied with his pregnant currant energy source. His last mails though ha: to impact on me though, thanks to HG, I didn’t react anymore to his manipulations and lies. I got my answers from reading between the lines, not directly from him. Though he did say about the end of the official relationship that I had become dysfunctional too fast.
    So, don’t try this at home … friendship with a narc.

    1. Ava101,
      I’m not even truly sure what I am dealing with. It has been going on and off for pst year, but he is very sexual, at least he claims to be only with me, otherwise “he is not interested at all” even with his current girlfriend. I started realizing something was off about him last May, and my instincts knew this was not a “typical guy” We spent so much time together, days on end, on and off, because he lives 5 hours away, and he would end up opening up to me about very abnormal issues, or neglect as a child, and of course he would talk about ex gf sending him awful letters, calling him a psychopath. Eventually he confessed things that he has done which knows about, and I have kept them In between us. We developed this magnetic, sexual relationship on top of me being his confidant. I remember him saying, you can never my girlfriend now because I never allow them to see this side of me, or come in my house, etc. I was heartbroken. Essentially, agreed to be his friend but in January I spent 5 days at his house, and after leaving I am literally living my life numb. I eventually start to become “normal” and loving again, and then he reappears, by just as a friend, but accusing me even though he has a girlfriend, of putting him through he ringer, of not being nice, (especially when I told him I needed more than just being strung along he gave a month long silent treatment, blocked me on messenger ONLY, and exactly one month later unblocks me). I’m the one in incredible pain and he acts like is bleeding, but yet I feel bad for labeling him if I don’t know truly if he is narcissist. Last week he says to me, “I will ruin every relationship you will ever be in, you know it in your heart. And when you find the one, I’ll come and make love to you, and it Will happen. It will always be like this” with him I’m either 100% gold or a pile of CRAP. He plays tricks, says his friend thinks I’m beautiful, can he set me up, so when I agreed just to see his reaction, he told me “you said I’m the only one!!” He also instructed me to break up with a guy I’m casually dating. He has a girlfriend!

      I’m starting to pull pieces together, reading old journal entries, and I’m trying to figure out how to pull away. If I go no contact and he isn’t a narcissist I could be pulling away from someone who has no one else to share deep childhood or past regrets with. Plus, I can be a little needy.

      How do we know? How do we know when it’s them and not us? Thank you for sharing with me Ava. I’m at wits end. Everyone I hear from him I physically start shaking. I never know what it’s going to be.

      You sound like a strong, beautiful woman!! Be proud of yourself!

      1. Some One says:

        I’m sorry to get involved sweetie but I have to say because I can’t not. He is not good, and he is hooking you DEEP!! Protect your precious heart and bloody run!! I won’t go on, I’m not as articulate as some of the girls here I’m only just getting my voice back so how can I advise others. But I know how it feels to hold on to that shred of hope because ugghhhhh what if though!! But you know deep down, you do, its just so hard to cut that final tie.. Don’t let this person take one more piece of you, you never know when its one too far and you crash and burn.. You deserve better than uncertainty and hurt.. Love is sure, and love never leaves you wondering. Ever!! *hugs*

        1. Some one,

          Your wording is plenty articulate! Don’t underestimate yourself!! Thank you for sharing your story and helping with mine. Maybe because I have brought this outside of myself I will find the strength to let him go and accept the truth. Those “what-ifs” and “if only” really prevent us from breaking free.

          I love your expression “Bloody Run!!!” Totally smiling. Ahhh us simple Americans lol.

          Stay strong and thank you!!!

        2. To clarify, LynnieRN and Lynnie Redwin..they are both me. It just depends if I accidentally click the inconsistent account to comment with. Sorry for any confusion to all!!!

      2. mymasterstoy says:

        Is his name by any chance Michael? Sounds exactly like the guy I’m with

        1. lynnyrn says:


          You never know, maybe one day he is Michael and the next he changes.😝

          I don’t know a whole lot about BDSM, but I do know a little. I had one relationship a long time ago where I explored D/sbriefly, I just could succumb to the rhetoric outside the bedroom. If these individuals who are narcissistic are truly as ruthful as I am reading them to be, it is not healthy even if you enjoy being submissive. A huge part of that kind of relationship depends on trusting the person.to take you to your limits, and past, but know exactly where and what your boundaries and can sense them before the submissive even can. The submissive has to depend completely on the Dominant for this dynamic to be safe and fulfilling. Can you get this from Michael.

          Hugs and stay strong! Submission is not a sign of a weak woman, remember😊

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Nor is it a sign of weakness for a man.

          2. lynnyrn says:

            Very true. Thanks for pointing that out

          3. mymasterstoy says:

            True. Being submissive isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a sign that you know exactly what you want or need. That is the one snag. I’ve told him I can’t submit 100% because I don’t trust him. And won’t until I can. He wants my pledge of monogamy. I told him he will get it when I get his. He says he doesn’t have to do that. I told him neither do I. Submission is a gift. You don’t want to earn it…your not going to get it. I’ve been told I’m a dominant submissive. No. But I demand respect in exchange for my gift of submission. I just love to please a man

      3. /iroll says:

        “If these individuals who are narcissistic are truly as ruthful as I am reading them to be, it is not healthy even if you enjoy being submissive.”

        The bdsm term for them is ‘predators’. Narcs are both ruthless and wimpy, if their ego’s aren’t being pumped up enough, they collapse. That does also depend on how strong their inner reserves are (accumulated support, levels of self-awareness and self-control) – but the more they let their fuel addiction rule them, the more desperate and grotesque they become, and they all have their moments.

        Add bdsm and a cult-like subcultural scene to the mix and they’re pumped up to the max on fuel (attention), highly enabled and often completely lose sight of reality – and some end up in court, like Liam Murphy aka ‘The Wolf’.

    2. ava101 says:

      Thank you Lynnie! 🙂

      First of all,
      “If I go no contact and he isn’t a narcissist I could be pulling away from someone who has no one else to share deep childhood or past regrets with.”
      But you need to think of your own well-being first! You are not responsible for him!
      I know how you feel about this, I really do, but it is important to learn that you must look out for yourself first. Whatever he is – you are not content and not well.

      When his girlfriend says that he is a psychopath, I would tend to believe her, maybe she knows what she is talking about. 😉
      I tried to convey this message to the current girlfriend of my exnarc and she disregarded it. She will learn it for herself in a very painful way.

      “he is very sexual, at least he claims to be only with me, otherwise “he is not interested at all” even with his current girlfriend.”
      This is something HG explains very well, therefore it sounds like typical narc behavior. In HG’s terms, it sounds to me like you are his Intimate Partner Secondary Source. I think there is something on it in “What am I to him.”

      My first love told me all the time that his relationship was on ice, too, that he didn’t even know if they were together anymore, that he felt so much more at home with me, etc. But he only strung me along, for years. The other things your narc (I think he is) says, sound like manipulation, like putting you in a certain place which is convenient for him. 🙁

      About opening up: I’m not sure, my exnarc didn’t at all. I CAN be that he does this to get your sympathy, to draw energy from you.

      >I don’t know truly if he is narcissist.
      What you describe sound very much like it.

      About a month after my exnarc broke up with me, I told him that had a date that night (exactly 5 years ago to the day 🙂 ) – and he went ballistic, I had to block him completely, it was crazy. Very much as you describe it – he had told me that he didn’t want a relationship and no sex, but he actually told me that he thought that I would keep a phase of abstinence out of respect for our relationship. *lol* Well, I didn’t find it funny back then.

      >How do we know? How do we know when it’s them and not us?

      By your own reactions, by realizing your own confusion because of him. I know how you feel, and this isn’t because of you; it IS him.

      I’m usually not the one to say this here, but in your case I actually would say that you might want to consider to ask HG, if you need confirmation of what he is. 🙂

      1. LynnieRN says:


        Do you realize this is the very first time since I met him last spring of 2016 that I have ever shared just a
        glimpse of our “relationship”. What you have offered me by listening to what I had to say was truly appreciated. I have been holding this in because I have begun to believe that I was starting to imagine this chaos in my head, the twists and turns, and I have never felt so ungrounded before. Here I am, a women in my 30s, with a good career, have been always chased by me for my beauty and personality, but I can be somewhat dramatic. Those closest to me I have almost completely shut out, because that same light I have always had, doesn’t feel like it exists anymore, and only those who know me well can see it. Because they are unaware of the situation, they are also now finding fault with me. To say the least, as you know, it has been a nightmare I didn’t could exist. I’ve dated some jerks before, but nothing like this.

        Thank you for your examples, intelligence, and non-judgements way you handled me. It is appreciated beyond belief. I have a lot more reading to do. I will check that article out you mentioned. I did ask HG about this, just not quite in the depth we have gotten into into.

        I CANNOT believe he requested you to be abstinent, and have no other relationships. I mean part of me wants to scream, “are you out of your ever-loving MIND?” Like you are going to sit around and waste having a healthy sexual relationship with whomever you would like!! I take it he was not “somatic?”

        Maybe someday I can return the favor to you! Praying for a sexy, wonderful, kind relationship headed your way, (unless you found one already!! 😁)

        1. mymasterstoy says:

          My son accused me of being possessed by demons for being with my Narc

      2. Tiny Dancer says:

        “When his girlfriend says that he is a psychopath, I would tend to believe her, maybe she knows what she is talking about. 😉”

        Yes this.

        Early in our relationship, my N told me about a prior relationship where her “crazy ex” got a restraining order against my N when they broke up after the girl fled their home while my N was away on a business trip. Listen to the stories of their past and see them for who they are, not who they say they are “with you”.

        1. lynnyrn says:

          Tiny Dancer,

          All I can is Right!!! In fact, during our second date/getaway he started opening up the exes. I have no idea if repeats, he never let me into that. But it was that weekend the light bulbs in my denial head went off as I got a whole list of his “crazy exes” and “Can you believe she had nerve to call me a psychopath”. I found out he and his mother, (whom he despises) devised a plan to drive one of his live in girlfriends so upset that she moved out. Of course, I had come out of a sexless marriage and had never experienced what I had with him before. I pushed that and a WHOLE lot of other red flags away. I even said once, you keep switching stories, how am I supposed to be on your side King who shall remain nameless. Between that and his addiction to fb….ugh. I’m an ICU RN, and have a psychology degree, and this came like a wolf in the night. But had I used my own intuition and stopped “hoping”, whether he’s an “N” or just an A**, I could have saved myself a world of heartbreak, my time, and my energy.
          Usually, if a man calls a woman crazy, it’s because he drive her there; or vice versa of course. I just wasn’t going to listen. No way. Where in the heck was my mind? I wasn’t even a Primary. Not one you live 5 hours away, have to be available on chat, for long getaways asap and frequently. I thought it was romantic! Ha. Deprived woman in a marriage for a long time makes you delusional.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            Hey Lynnyrn!
            “Usually, if a man calls a woman crazy, it’s because he drive her there”
            I really liked that! They’re so quick to accuse us of being crazy, but fail to see any hand they had in it. My exhusband always said that all men are jerks and all women are crazy. They do go hand in hand!
            Much of your story resonates with me. Stay here and keep sharing and reading. You will find answers and eventually some peace.
            My respect for your being an RN. It’s a hard job with long hours! One of my daughters in law is one. She works on the cardiac floor of a local hospital.

          2. strongerwendy says:

            Feels like I’m the only one here who is not a nurse or in the field of psychology…

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I’m not.

          4. lynnyrn says:

            And to Stronger Wendy-
            You think being nurse saved me? I know nothing! It simply my career. I come from a hard working family and a father who was drafted during Vietnam to the Marines who never went to school. My decision to go back to be an RN was try to because I had disappointed my parents, I missed my grandfather terribly when he died, and part of me thought this was to make up for some ways I wasn’t there when I shouldn’t have been! Everyone has reasons for doing what they set out to do in this life. You think I have loved people for their careers?? No way!! Not ever!! Not once!

          5. strongerwendy says:

            I meant your readers.

          6. Windstorm2 says:

            I’m not, strongerwendy. I’m a retired middle school teacher. But that does require a lot hands-on psychology! And a very high tolerance for chaos!! 😜

          7. Snow White says:

            Hi Windstorm2!!!

            Your comment about the high tolerance for chaos made me laugh. That’s another thing that got me in trouble. Being a preschool teacher and a special needs parent made it easier for me to accept my exes behaviors. I am too laid back and like you have that very same tolerance. I repeatedly told her that I could handle “her chaos”.
            I didn’t realize til I was out that I couldn’t. I had no idea what damage she was doing to my mental and physical state. I am still feeling some of that.

          8. Windstorm2 says:

            Hey Snow White!
            Yeah, I understand you. I’m a very laid back person and very tolerant of chaos and mind games. That’s probably one reason I can put up with narcs and tweeners so well. 😆 But everyone has a breaking point. It’s all too easy to let ourselves get overwhelmed where our physical and mental health gets damaged. And God knows the narcs aren’t going to step in and help us then. Ha, ha!
            Have a great weekend!

          9. Snow White says:

            Ha Ha is right Windstorm2!!!
            It definitely helps with that age group too. 😜

            I’m not sure when or what would have caused my breaking point in that relationship but I do know that it would have been too late and I would have lost everything.
            At the 2 1/2 year mark I was still all in and fully committed to her.

            You have a great weekend too!

          10. MLA - Clarece says:

            I as well have thought that! We can sit together in the Tudor cafeteria for lunch. lol
            I’m a Project Manager and Bookkeeper for a recycling equipment distributor. It’s a family owned business and they give me very flexible hours to work around my daughter’s schedule.

          11. mymasterstoy says:

            I hear that. I went without sex for a year. Elite I met my Somatic Narc. I’m in hog heaven right now. Well the once a week I get it. If you live in the Chattanooga area we should probably talk lol

      3. ava101 says:

        Thank you so much Lynnie for your kind words. 🙂 I am happy if I can help.

        No, you are not imagining things. I know how you feel, I’ve been there, this is the result of the emotional abuse. All that fog and the confusion.

        I am glad you have found this website.
        I know that others seldom understand. A friend of mine just told me today that I should stop talking about narcissism.

        I also couldn’t believe the nightmare I was in. Who could imagine this without having been there before.

        I hope you can put some distance between him and yourself. Fast. *hugs*

      4. lynnyrn says:


        I could Not succumb to D/s outside the bedroom. Usually I’m not one to always follow orders.

        1. mymasterstoy says:

          Me either! I’m considered a brat

  23. HG, There’s no spot to check Magnet Empath. Which umbrella does this one fall under? Do you see a lot of nurses, etc in this “category?”

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is because Magnet Empath is not a school of empath, it is a cadre.

      1. So essentially a sub-group within. Understood. Thank you for answering HG. Too early in my learning of all this to know exactly where I even fall.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome. Keep reading and it will fall into place.

      2. Indy says:

        How many Empath/Codep. cadres are there? Have you covered them all here? And, like Narcissists, can Empaths cross over in multiple cadres and what would that be called in your system?

        ***tapping finger nails on desk, waiting on books

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have not covered all of the empath cadres yet, no, there are others to be revealed.

  24. ava101 says:

    That’s exactly how it is. My exnarc once literally jumped out of the bed, on his feet, in a nanosecond when I came to him to cuddle and he accused me for months that I had wanted to seduce him (OMG, and I hadn’t even wanted to).
    He enjoyed that power of withholding, too.
    So why would you want to go back to that ….

    1. Virginia says:

      Actually, I think about how great it would be to be with a normal man. I love sharing and caring with someone who can do the same. Once I get my business on solid footing and grow bigger, I will have more options.

      I agree. I am not going to frustrated the rest of my life. Why put up with someone who can never give one ounce back, someone who lies to himself and others, abuses, rages, has mood shifts like an earthquake, can’t interact normally with others, who can never take responsibility, withholds in cruel ways, who acts weird, etc. Way too many negatives!!

      1. NarcAngel says:


        “Actually, I think about how great it would be to be with a normal man. I love sharing and caring with someone who can do the same”

        Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.

        Couldnt resist.

  25. Susanne says:

    So there is no desire for authenticity in a relationship? You do not wish to ever be able to ‘be yourself’, so to speak or to be loved for who you truly are? Perhaps to have a well of unending supply that is real and not manufactured? Would that do it? Also, if you could find some merit in doing such a thing.. what would happen to you? Thank you for your insight, I do mean ‘you’ in the general sense.

    1. Susanne says:

      MLA – Clarece, Yes. I guess what I’m trying to understand is this idea of survival. I think of survival in the literal as living or dying. So if a narcissist were to reveal their true self to another person, and I don’t necessarily mean in a romantic relationship, how does this affect their survival.

    2. HG Tudor says:

      There would be no point as that would not provide me with what is required.

      1. Indy says:

        Yes, fuel, character traits and what is that third thing, special benefits?

        Your response to Susanna saddens me. You starve the real you (trapped deeply within) to maintain the fake facade…do you feel “seen” here? “Known” here? The more authentic you?

        I know, it is complicated as it isn’t all of the real you here, due to 5 rules, online limits, etc…plus you do use your charm here too…but do you feel more known here?

        I am only using my personal experience to try to understand, being “not seen” for who I really am is painful for me.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is the residual benefits.

          I am known here, naturally.

          1. Indy says:

            HG, that feels like a sidestep to my question. Yes we “know” you here but do we really know you… Of course not. My question remains. Who knows the true you the closest? Does it feel good to you to be known at that level?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Nobody knows the true me.

          3. Windstorm2 says:

            Ooooh! I could feel the surge in emotion from all the readers on that comment!
            I realize you want to keep it that way, HG. And I believe I understand your reasoning. But I also know narcs who’ve had to let others see them as they truly are- narcissism and all – due to the rigorous self-honesty demanded in AA. These people have flourished when they saw they could be themselves without worry, still be respected, successful and even have family remain in their corner. From the outside looking in, this seems to have been very freeing for these men and they sure seem to be more at ease and content in their lives.
            I know you don’t want to risk this now, but I’ll keep hoping you decide to eventually. Like any risk, it has the potential for a great reward.

          4. Indy says:

            Yes, me too. That was a powerful statement from HG. I felt that wall go up so I let go….for now…

            Indeed, what you and MLA bring up was where I was going. being seen and truly known (and accepted) is therapeutic by itself and humbling too. And doing some internal reflection helps give the real self a more realistic image, rather than a creature image to defend against and muffle out.

          5. C★ says:

            there are many that would validate, respect, love and appreciate you for your true self, HG! I would bet my life on that… how that would ever come to fruition, I do not know. It is difficult indeed, to “let someone in”.. I get that!

          6. Star says:

            Do you even know the real you HG?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Probably not.

          8. Indy says:

            And that is part of the adventure, finding you. Ah, there could be a movie, “Finding HG” in different sequels liike Tudor Towers, Death in the Dungeon, Naughty Step 2000, The Empaths Strike Back, etc

          9. Windstorm2 says:

            Indy, you have such a vivid imagination! You need to write books! Get a journal and start jotting ideas down. There’s a whole new world out there for you besides counseling!

          10. Indy says:

            Hi Windstorm2,
            Aw thanks.

            I have journaled and need to get back into it. It helped me survive the depths of depression and certain difficult relationships by writing. It’s very therapeutic. I tend to think in cartoon form and in children’s book format. I need to draw more again too. Love art.

          11. Windstorm2 says:

            You know, the more I think about it…maybe you could combine them – write stories geared to young people about self-image and how to deal with other types of people, that sort of thing.
            Just a thought.

          12. Indy says:

            We think alike, Windstorm2. I had started a book at one time for children. Perhaps I should take it back up. Boundary Buddy Book, Feelings Superheros, Building Forts and Bridges, etc…Autism is another topic I might explore in children’s books too. There are more now out there though it could be an area I can contribute.

          13. Windstorm2 says:

            Sounds like an idea, Indy!

          14. MLA - Clarece says:

            👍❤👍❤👍❤That’s great!

          15. MLA - Clarece says:

            Don’t you think your own character traits would have a chance to develop more in a dynamic where you are truly known? Any merit in exploring that? You say you hate feeling dependent on the fuel of your supply.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            How would you see them developing?

          17. mymasterstoy says:

            Would you not be interested in a relationship where someone knows exactly what you are and what you need. Is willing to give it to you. As much fuel as you want. Not having to keep up the facade? Telling your beast in the chasm to bugger off…its no longer a threat to you?

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Naturally I am interested but whether that is achievable is something else.

          19. Indy says:

            Well, the response to that is you never know until it is tried out…though there are serious risks on both sides, as usual. However, who knows it might be like a reparative relationship. I had a fling with a psychologist who was into more psychodynamic things (how we heal the past by going through it again from a safe spot and gaining indight). He used to say we were in a reparative relationship. I thought he was being a bit paternalistic, but hey, it was an adventure. It was “healing” in some ways though it didn’t work out, it had its purpose in that time.

            Treat it as an adventure of self exploration and bringing someone along rather than having to have “the one”….or the three lol. Boy, you could use some 12 steps!! 😂 Back awaayyyy from the booty!!! 😂

          20. mymasterstoy says:

            That’s what I’m trying to offer mine without coming out and just putting it bluntly. I’m not sure what kind he is. So he confuses the hell out of me. He can’t even tell me the truth about the day he was born in lol

          21. MLA - Clarece says:

            I just think a natural, slow progression can take place where in the past you bulldoze thru with love bombing and mirroring, if that gets halted, with someone who uses their time with you to shift gears, patiently, kindly, not forcibly, it would allow you to learn to draw on different parts of your psyche to navigate.
            I mean, you truly have this rare gift bestowed upon you which is understanding what you are, how it was molded in your childhood, how you affect people positively or negatively using your power and truly grasping the impact of any damage to your victims. You can explain it better than they can despite not being able to feel it. I’m not saying you’ll discover feelings you are not wired to feel. But maybe you’ll find a peacefulness with someone where the need to draw the negative fuel that takes so much energy and wreaks such havoc can be tempered for you.
            I heard a saying this weekend. “Death gives time it’s value and meaning”. All of us here are closer to our end then when we were born. Even you, HG. I know you will have a legacy. But like Indy said, don’t you want to experience a true authenticity with someone without having to maintain the exhausting facade? You’re so inquisitive, so curious. You weren’t allowed to explore as a child. Right there are traits we see and value. Now you wouldn’t be shut down. For the terrain of time you have left, explore it because you can.

          22. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi HG! I’m hoping you are pondering my response to your question on your traits developing. I’m not rushing, I just enjoyed where this convo was going.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            Hi Clarece, indeed I am pondering.

          24. MLA - Clarece says:

            Good, I’m so glad! Thank you!

      2. Hi HG.
        Only place to reply. So, nobody knows the true you? Is that because you don’t even know your true self? No identity. If you fill yourself externally you really cannot see yourself. You of course through therapy must be identifying yourself in some ways ? Being empty and relearning which traits are actually yours and which emotions pertain to ideas you have right? Do you ever hear someone’s story of abuse and think I understand that abuse because I lived it? Do you identify with other victims? This is the part I never see you do. I cannot recall you ever saying that you know what another person’s abuse feels like. You were abused, so how can this be? Do you just look at the story of another’s abuse, see the commonality and dismiss the feelings of abuse that you recall? The feelings from abuse are negative. Sadness, insecurity, weakness, etc…. do you push that down with fuel? Ignore it? Refuse to acknowledge it? How can your therapists help you progress emotionally if you refuse to look? You cannot learn who you are if you do not look at yourself. Do you not compare and contrast yourself with others? You must, to be jealous or envy or want something another has or to put yourself above, your internal dialogue has to be “I’m better than them because….” it takes self examination to put an end to that sentence. Nosce te ipsum? Is that not an antiquated statement? You have to in order to start to ama te ipsum? The good doctors must be trying to help you do this, yes?
        I know this is alot of questions but, you know me, racing mind and all that….please entertain an answer for me/us Tudorites, I would appreciate your kindness or feigned kindness? You see I think you kind but then…..
        Venusti habere nocte.♡☆

      3. Narc affair says:

        Not to be a negative nelly but speaking from a relationship where my narc has pretty much showed me his true self on and off again over the years i can say its not a sustaining relationship. A narcissistic relationship whether you know that person fully or not is one sided and always will be. I look at sam vaknin and his wife and i dont doubt her love for him but i do doubt she is fulfilled and happy. My feeling is she is so very conditioned to being treated that way from her past which shes admitted to even worse, that she is “comfortable” in this type of dynamic. I think shes a codependant settling but thats just my opinion of course.
        I honestly cant see a person staying in a narcissistic relationship knowing fully who their narc is unless they are a dysfunctional codependant themselves. A healthy person with self respect would want more from life and a partner.
        A narcissist i feel would still have to deploy their tactics and imo once someone fully accepts them theyd grow bored and pull away from them. They need many sources in their life regardless if their primary is open armed to their real self. Narcissism is a disorder and it doesnt vanish bc you accept who they are. Been there doing that.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          I agree with you about no relationship with a narc being really fulfilling as a primary relationship for a healthy person. There’s just too many “can’ts”. You can’t rely on them, you can’t live with them(without being driven crazy), you can’t furnish all their fuel no matter how you try. They can’t get by with just one source. They can’t actually love you. They can’t understand and support you emotionally. You can’t have any relationship with them that won’t cause you pain repeatedly.

          But it is possible for healthy people to have a non-intimate relationship, if they can set boundaries to protect themselves. More like a friendship. And these friends can know what the narc is, love him, accept him and enjoy his company. These types of relationships seem to benefit the narc, too. It’s very reaffirming for all of us to be understood and accepted for who we really are, narcs included.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I agree with your last paragraph whole-heartedly. You can have them in your life if you have healthy boundaries set for yourself and can stick to them. There is still danger in that you could get caught up because as we know they can be plenty charming and convincing (case in point: the owner of this joint who is dangerous enough virtually). Satisfying yet challenging relationships with them? Yes. Love? No.

        2. Indy says:

          Hi Narc Affair,
          You are not being a negative nelly, you are speaking logically. Yes, I cannot imagine Sams wife is fulfilled, it’s all about him and his journey.

          I get stuck in this healer mentality, I have to remember he doesn’t want or see the need to heal.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          Narc Affair
          I agree for the most part. There are people who can give a LOT and who appear to be taking little for themselves, but are not damaged in the way most here describe. They are not love devotees, but rather derive satisfaction from assisting another attain their goals without feeling that its taking too much from them. The power behind the throne so to speak. But only to a point and not for the long haul. They do not believe in the concept of soulmates and know when the devaluation gets too much and they are no longer satisfied, that there are others and no reason to stay, so onto another Golden Period. The N will not pick these people but for the sake of experiment lets say they did. The N WILL get bored. It is as you point out, part of the disorder. And really, normals get bored plenty quickly too but just dont resort to the behaviour of the N and in most cases just resign themselves to their ‘choice’ or to do the ‘right’ thing according to society. Thats part of the reason people cheat-they either want some stability but feel unfulfilled or they feel trapped by societal rules. Also theres the “cheaper to keep her” clause in a lot of cases whether people want to face that or not. The N feels none of this responsibility and damn the rules so can easily move on. I believe people are just kidding themselves and falling back into the Empath thinking of “I can show them a better way” or thinking that the N can find ‘love’. They already have-they love themselves. Everyone else is just game. But for an Empath hope springs eternal. Witness the poll results.

      4. Yolo says:

        HG, what do you want? You’ve stated several times in the past you see no reason to change. What are your expectations and goals from the bloggers other than the obvious etc spread the word, purchase your books. What is your mission statement?

        If i am not overstepping, i know that may have not mattered to me in the past. 😊

        With so much going on in this world soon many will become numb to the abuse of narcs. Their behaviour we become the new norm. Possibly a potential fuel shortage. Awww..soon.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I want to see more people become weaponised. I want to be the number one source for information in this sphere. I want to watch my readers advance using my work. I want to see where my continuing interaction with the readers and the good doctors takes me to. I want to learn more.

          There won’t be a fuel shortage.

      5. Narc affair says:

        Indy…exactly most if not all narcissists do what they do bc it suits their needs. They have to have a reason to want to change whether they hit rock bottom in some form or go thru some kind of crisis and want to lead a different life. Ive fully accepted my narc and he still uses the same tactics. In fact in some ways i think it could be worse if the victim is aware and accepts them fully maskless bc they have nothing to lose by being even nastier!

        Windstorm2…so true about all the cants in the narc relationship.
        As far as friendship goes with the narc possibly a tertiary one where you dont interact with them much. If youre a close friend to a narc i think youd have to be a minion or lietenant of some sort which would mean being under their full control. Narcissists are jealous and envious by nature and if your anyone other than their “tool” they will set out to destroy you. Ive wished for it to be the case where my narc and i could just be friends but im not so sure itd work. First off he would get insecure as would i. Secondly he would get jealous of something in my life that didnt have to do with him. If a narcs SO is happy about something that doesnt involve them they get insecure and jealous and want to destroy. They ruin anything good in their lives sadly. Im not so sure you can be a true friend as an empath with a narc. To be a friend as we know it is being honest and caring. Its a two way street and narcissists are one sided.
        Im dealing with this with my daughters friend who is a narcissist. She devalues my daughter then idolyzes her(typical classic narc cycle ) Its taken a toll on her confidance. We tried the walk away and instill boundaries but it hasnt worked. My daughter doesnt want to be friends with her and i back her on that. You cant be friends with someone you dont trust and doesnt have your best interests at heart. Also who wants to be friends with someone who lacks morals, hurts people and lies? Friends with a narc = frenemies

      6. Narc affair says:

        Narc angel…ty for your post. I do agree with a lot of it. I think in any relationship its never going to be 50/50 and it constantly changes thats the beauty of a loving relationship you put in more when its needed. In my narc relationship we somewhat do this but its all a facade bc im giving up so much more of myself than he has or ever will. When youre in any type of relationship with a narcissist except tertiary there is a cost and trade off. It costs you your boundaries and who you are. Thats the very essence of narcissism is you give up you to please them. They want you to give up yourself the ultimate saceifice. That is why so many lay dead and used up after being with a narcissist. They saceificed everything they believed in and became subserviant to someone who never had their best interests and quite the opposite in some cases they wanted to destroy them. I love my narc with all my heart but knowing who he is fully will not make any difference. The only difference it makes is they dont try to hide it as much and in some cases they get more abusive. I have my limits and he knows this. It will never be fulfilling like a healthy lovinf relationship would so why on earth would you want to commit to a narcissist? Love them ok but from a distance. Dont try to build anything with them bc theyll knock it down. Their disorder is a destructive one.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          I agree. Sounds like we have a lot in common. You’re completely right if you’re talking about trying to live with one and build a life together. It sucks you dry and breaks you. That’s why I divorced mine and moved 40 miles away. We can still enjoy each other’s company, but I’ve got my own separate life to fulfill me and that distance to maintain boundaries. It’s sure not for everybody, but I do love him and we have 4 kids and 8 (in two weeks!) grandchildren together.
          I feel a solidarity with you. Strength and hugs.

      7. Star says:

        Ok HG , so you say you want to weaponize us against your kind and see us advance yet you still want to do what you do which is entrapp empathy for your own fuel. Isn’t that just completely hypocritical?? Oh wait… ah hah moment.. it probobly dosent matter to you if it is, as long as your needs are being met.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t regard it as hypocritical, but even if you do, as you correctly identify Star my needs are being met so I do not care. I admit that there are many times where what I do and my kind do are hypocritical but that is of no concern to us.

          1. Star says:

            Thank u for your answer HG I realize my question may have come off sounding kind of snarky lol. I hope you realize I didn’t mean it to sound as such:)

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome. Quite alright, I understand why people might be that way and note you didn’t intend it.

  26. Susanne says:

    I mean the truth of your nature.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I would have to be considerably convinced that there is merit in doing such a thing.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        If the merit exists, I would guess the idea becomes very appealing to someone who gets bored easily and that would be new, unchartered waters for you to explore.

      2. mymasterstoy says:

        Wouldn’t it be too late to just open up to one person and expect it to do anything? Your brain has reworked itself since childhood to have no/little empathy. It would take an enormous amount of retraining an already fixed brain wouldn’t it?

        I would think that the best you could hope for is being able to convince the professionals and the world that you are indeed recovering. Which is what your life is built around in the first place. An illusion. I’m not sure one has ever been “fixed”. Only convinced the right people that they are. What’s your view on that ?

      3. superxena says:

        Hello HG!
        You say that you probably do not know your real you.. Have you ever tried to find ” who” your real you is? A part of it is shown here on your blog…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Why is it necessary to do that?

          1. superxena says:

            Thank you for your answer HG
            Why is it necessary to do that: To avoid the narcissistic wound? Don’t you think that would be a reason enough?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            How would finding out who I am avoid being wounded?

          3. superxena says:

            Because then you would realise that your need of fuel wouldn’t be necessary since you have an inner true self that is “self fueled”. And worth to be loved of who “it” is…with no facade..

          4. Indy says:

            SuperXena, precisely! All that fuel is to keep the construct functioning which keeps the “creature” in and hidden….when all along, this creature is a wounded boy in shackles in a dungeon, deserving of the light of day, being fed and played with and loved.

            The more time that goes by, the more the mask becomes a part of his perception of his real self, and is fused onto him with the escape hatch for the boy getting smaller and smaller…just my opinion and visualization of the internal battle. I might have it all wrong of course though that boy does deserve light, life and love and be allowed to grow, if he can…

            Ok, my goey,hairy ,empath self steps back while I eat my late lunch. Growls a little, hides a smile. Hear the chains of a codependent? I hide them skillfully 😂

          5. superxena says:

            Hello Indy!
            First of all I want to say that if you have not written books, you should! And if you have, I would certainly like to read one of yours! Your writing style is much appealing !
            It seems we are “looking ” at the same issue but with slightly different approaches .My approach being of a more” logical” and “based on ” facts analysis:
            The fact that the narcissist ( at least those who are aware of how and why they function the way they do) HAS FEELINGS (being: fury,jealousy and most of all the feelings arising from the narcissistic wound ) tells me that the definition of themselves as “an effective almost mechanised unit” is only a constructed defensive part of themselves and by themselves.
            The narcissistic wound is the one that has most attracted my attention. As it has been described is a deep and profound wound that tells me that they are not really “rotten ” to the bottom (apologising for that harsh word) but instead there is a fragile, vulnerable, exposed part that is,as you said hidden and protected by the construct. For me the “creature” might as well represent the FEAR of exposing that fragile part within them ( inner self) . The fragile part that has been deeply wounded sometime along life.
            The feelings that they DO have are evidence of a part that is there and has been there ( since birth?) that has unfortunately been dimmed and distorted by the defensive construct. But they are feelings all the way….and I do believe this inner self is self fueled.
            As for the time that this defensive mechanism ( the construct)has been used as a survival strategy I think that it is possible to find alternative mechanisms for reaching the inner self..It will take time…but not impossible to achieve.
            As for the willingness of the narcissist to do it…if it would avoid the narcissistic wound…well then it would be worth it…at least trying. Wouldn’t it be as well a change on their mind set?

            It is the same for us “empaths” : if changing our mind set( into a more logical,cold hearted one) makes us less vulnerable…why not trying to do it?
            Hmmm… I hope what I wrote makes sense…

          6. Indy says:

            Hi SuperXena,
            Aw thanks. No, no books published. Maybe it’s s project I should think about taking on…
            It did make sense what you are saying and it’s possible. I agree with what you said. Indeed they have emotions and are highly sensitive to wounding. I do have more hope for those with insight, though I do not know how far the healing could go. First they need to want change and be motivated toward it. That’s one issue. You are right in that one would think if it is presented to them as a way to avoid wounding and make one more efficient in “fuel” filling, though if they are cool with how they are getting fuel now, I can see HG for example saying “why change”.

            I do agree with the theory that this is from a past trauma and it is a particular CPTSD response, unique to their make up, due to genetics and the specific trauma. I follow the current theory in some circles that view both NPD and BPD as being developmental traumas. Trauma in childhood that effect essential development of certain functions, like a sense of self or full emotional spectrums. I also see that some parts existed and were cut off in childhood to survive their war. Can we rescue those parts now? That is what is up for debate. Would it be the same as say a normal? Can they learn to fuel themselves better with the strengthening of a more stable sense of self and learning to validate themselves? I think so, partially. This is one element that is taught in DBT to those with BPD and emotional dysregulation,How to stop seeking external validation and learn to self validate.

            NPD is different though as their is that issue of low to no emotional empathy. I think encouraging use of cognitive empathy regularly is one way to get around it for now. Not sure how to develop emotional empathy other than opening access to other emotions, increasing emotional awareness and experience and broaden the emotional spectrum, if they are there still, and see if it flows after…it’s all uncharted territory that needs further research. Interestingly, the research in empathy that had been brought to the forefront recently may help in the development of new therapies and tools. Easy to theorize, hard to put into practice.

            God, that was me rambling on and on again. I hope my ramble makes sense too.

          7. superxena says:

            Hello again Indy!
            Another wonderful input from you.Thank you! I write a short answer in this one as well now..just to thank you but I would certainly like to continue exchanging “knowledge” in this matter that is found very interesting..
            I will be back to you tomorrow…
            And you are not rambling…what you write makes perfectly sense..
            “See ” you tomorrow..time for me to get some sleep…..long day for me today…

          8. superxena says:

            Hello Indy!
            Psychology is not my field of expertise as it yours…so my comments are just based on what I have read here on this site ,my observations and on the experience of being entangled with an ex (Greater?) .And of course from my perspective as a no-narcissist.

            I do not really think that they are so “cool” as they say with the way they get fuel by extracting emotions from others . Being dependable 100% of people of to REPAIR the wound instead of activating other mechanisms that come from within (the inner self )to PREVENT being wounded does not sound very “cool” for me. I think it is like a burden to them.
            Even a so called “effective unite” that functions like this (dependable solely of external factors) is not as effective on the long run as it seems. Even though the fuel matrix is extensive ( upper schools) it is just a palliative measure.
            According to MY observations:
            1. The construct is just a facade to seduce people to extract fuel( emotional responses) to REPAIR the wound. That is to say they are completely dependable on people.Even though the fuel matrix is extense( in case of the Greaters)
            2. They do not have a way to PREVENT being wounded since they get wounded by any criticism they can’t prevent or control .They are very vulnerable. They can’t control being wounded.
            3. This is where the self fuelled inner self would act to PREVENT being wounded( or at least could be able to “shake off” the wound)

            This makes me think:
            1. How does a no-narcissist do when wounded? Interesting to know,it depends perhaps on if it is a “normal”( I hate that word,since I consider myself as being normal the main difference perhaps being the ability to mark boundaries and “shaking” off the wound) or which type of “empath” it is.

            So Indy I have a question for you:
            What do you do when you get hurt/ wounded (emotionally) to repair the wound?
            What are your self fuelled mechanisms?

          9. Indy says:

            Hi SuperXena!
            You raise a lot of interesting theories. I will have to think more
            deeply about your idea on the use of the construct.

            Your question about how do non-narcissists deal with wounding is excellent as many non-narcissists struggle with this too, just perhaps not at the core of who we are to the same degree as say a narcissist or one with a PD. Some people, when hurt, and have a hard time emotionally regulating go to addiction, as we are not taught how to cope as children. I, too, struggle with some old “scars” though I have improved over the years. I used to seek praise to feel good about myself, I used to exercise and eat, I used to use sex, and achievements to fuel myself, like narcissists do but at a different level and I never liked negative fuel. Many codependents do this and many with mood disorders and BPD do this too as well as those with addictions. Now, I LOVE my alone time, I do more mindfulness and validate myself a lot. I seek less approval from others and get “self fuel” from doing things that align with my personal value system. Mindfulness has helped a lot. I still like praise and the recognition of achievements, but they do not define me as a worthwhile person anymore. I am ok just being. Being with family and genuine friends. Simple things. It’s weird I’m struggling to explain, it’s like there is more deeper meaning in life (and soul like energy) by “being”, “sitting”, observing..more peaceful..I need to think more and journal on it. Excellent question as I need to continue to address this in myself too.

          10. Indy says:

            Hi SuperXena,
            I totally agree that if one is chained to the need for fuel, it is not as easy of a life as being able to engage in self fueling, in my humble. That irritability and restlessness is there when the fuel goes down, like addiction. But, when you snort that drug(fuel included), the high is so delicious it dims the memory of the struggle or the irritation a little….thus, the grandiose statement of “I got it under control” by all addicts. Even if that statement flies in the face of reality: legal issues, divorces, job losses for some, potential loss of other things as a consequence; they still stick with their view. You can argue with them until you are blue in the face the down side. Believe me I know, looking back at my past relationships with recovering and relapsing addicts helps me conceptualize narcissism and its relationship to fuel so much better now. Of course, Fury, by HG, is a must read.

            I really like your questions you pose here, SuperXena as they help me clarify mine as well! I’m still thinking about your other ideas…simmering them 😊

            Hope your summer is going well!!

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Well put.

          12. superxena says:

            Hello Indy!
            What an extensive and interesting answer! I write a short answer now just to thank you! But I will definetely come back to you with my reflections of your analysis!
            Yes,I am enjoying the summer,especially the summer nights like tonight “hanging out” with friends. I am starting to enjoy life again for the first time in some years…
            I hope you are fine as well ! Coming back to you soon!
            Best wishes

          13. MLA - Clarece says:

            Loving this conversation between you two! Fascinating concepts!

          14. superxena says:

            Hello Clarece!

            Thank you! Feel free to step in the conversation!

          15. Indy says:

            Hi MLA,
            Yes, feel free to join in!! You are so sweet and more the merrier! More minds, more ideas too!

            I often bumble into conversations others are having without an “excuse me” (my rude side and I will blame shift onto my ADHD 😂 I’m sorry to those I’ve done that to! I need to work on this in me.

          16. NarcAngel says:


            No you dont. See?

          17. Indy says:

            Haha NA, exactly like that! And, please join in 😂

          18. superxena says:

            Hello Indy!
            Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for finding my answers valuable and awakening inner reflection in you.
            I agree with you that many of the things you mentioned :
            Seeking achievements,approval and praise ,exercise,sex,eat and in my case I would add work( I am like a working machine sometimes)
            are used by some (many) either for feeling like a worthwhile person and/or coping with an “inner” wound.
            The question is when and why these mechanisms turn to be an addiction?

            I do not seek or need negative fuel either. In my opinion that is perhaps one of the main differences between a non-narcissist and a narcissist: their need of negative fuel (more potent to them than positive) . Which as I understand is the reason why they devalue.

            It is not my intention in ANY WAY to criticise the narcissist’s way of fuelling.And I hope HG understands this. I have learned a lot about them and I have more understanding now of how and why they function as they do.

            I am just stating that if it is possible for the empath (all these strategies are very well presented on HG’s book Escape)to avoid being hurt (either by a non-narcissist or a narcissist) by training to:
            1.Apply more defined boundary settings,
            2.Changing mind set to less emotional ,more cold-hearted. (There is an expression in Swedish I like a lot: To have “Is i magen”.. If you translate it is “to have ice on your stomach”)
            3. Being able to “Shake”off” certain emotions

            Wouldn’t that then be possible as well for the narcissist to do?Finding ways to avoid being wounded? By building up their inner self that is not dependable of external factors? Because I do not think( even the narcissist)that anybody wants to experience such a deep ,devastating wound.

            By the way, you mentioned the concept of cognitive empathy..do you think that it is a skill that can be trained up? Could a well trained cognitive empathy balance the lack of emotional empathy /emotional contagion? In which ways do you think that the cognitive empathy could be trained? Could the empathy concern be trained as well? And how?
            Time for me to go out and enjoy the summer sun!!
            “See ” you soon…best wishes
            P.s I like our tête à tête in certain topics!!!

            Sent from my iPad

          19. superxena says:

            Hello again Indy!
            Oh..how active I am today here….
            …interesting hypothetical scenario painted here…a “reparative relationship” being a narcissist entering a relationship with someone telling who he really is? I quote : “Treat it as an adventure of self exploration and bringing someone along rather than having to have “the one”….or the three lol.”
            You mentioned that there will be risks for both parts: what do you think the risks for the empath would be? And for the narcissist?

          20. Indy says:

            Hi SuperXena,
            Well It isn’t something I promote as there are ethical issues with such relationship experiments. Setting ethical limits asside (psych field ethics), there are many risks for both. For instance, for the narcissist, if they make attempts at being fully genuine and are more vulnerable, they are very much at risk of wounding. We all are when our guard is down though the sensitivity of those with NPD and BPD is heightened. The partner would be at risk for all sorts of abuse and manipulations. Even with the masks off, that side is still there. Then there is always the fuel depletion effects and this depressed state some go into when starved of fuel. Some reported even experience signs of loss of being in touch with reality.

            There would need to be certain boundaries set, certain rules that both agree to…and narcissists do not like boundaries and rules. Some empaths/codependents/normals do not know how to set boundaries or enforce them. Some even do not like them as well. It would likely require a specialist to be a third party monitor or safty net. And that’s the problem, as it may be an ethical dilemma for the third party. And the potential for triangulation as well.

            Potentially quite risky. Though if you get a narcissist with insight with a highly trained partner on NPD, who knows. It still likely will be one sided. The partner’s dreams and goals likely take the back seat as all focus is on the narcissist’s healing or behavior.

            The reciprocity is still reduced. It could be practiced as a skill, though life happens to us all in its own time schedule. Will he be there when there is a family tragedy for the partner? When she’s sick or injured? Will he have to be pushed to support you? And how would that feel? Lots of one sided interactions.

            Just my first thoughts on this. Lots of risks for both.

          21. superxena says:

            Hello Indy!
            Thank you VERY MUCH for your answer! Incredible input you provided me with. I write short now just to thank you . I have many questions that I will ask you tomorrow. I want to read what you wrote several times and with more detail…Extremely interesting…I”ll “catch with you up “tomorrow ( if that’s how it is said in English)…

            in English?)

          22. MLA - Clarece says:

            When we live in a world with reality shows like Little Women of Atlanta, Breaking Amish, Hoarders and 90-Day Fiance, this could totally be the next reality series. Evil HG set up in beach house with an Angel Empath who’s aware of what he is, monitored by the good doctors for 6 months. Let the cameras roll and see what happens.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed. Tell me more about Breaking Amish.

          24. MLA - Clarece says:

            “Breaking Amish” was a 5-season reality show covering the lives of several Amish and 1 Menonite cast member during their free span of time allowed in young adulthood when they can move to NYC and live and mix with society and culture in “English Life” rather than their traditional life. They get to wear jeans, use electricity, and spend time in places that serve alcohol — all first-time experiences for them. If they commit to living full-time on the outside, and even if they return to their previous lifestyles, they risk being shunned and ostracized by their community altogether.
            HG, if you’re not familiar with Amish culture, think Little House on the Prairie with horse n’ buggies, churning butter, bonnets on women, beards on men…
            Growing up in Ohio, I had relatives in the small town of Orrville (home of Smucker’s Jelly). The surrounding rural area had Amish communities. We’d be playing outside and see cars passing horse drawn buggies on the main road. Totally normal sighting. If I saw that now, I’d think I was hallucinating or that someone drugged me. Lol

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you. I do know about Amish culture, but I was curious as to what Breaking Amish would be? I couldn’t really see a horse and trap delivering crystal meth ‘to the ‘hood’.

            I remember Little House on the Prairie and was puzzled by how they seemed so happy all of the time. Ditto The Waltons.

          26. Windstorm2 says:

            Revisionist history and wishful thinking. Life was too hard back then to have enough energy to be that happy.

            I still pass horse drawn buggies all the time. Kentucky and Missouri have lots of Mennonites.

          27. HG Tudor says:

            Bastards. Such a facade.

          28. NarcAngel says:

            Haha yes bastards.

            ‘Night Jim Bag.

          29. MLA - Clarece says:

            I loooooved Little House on the Prairie. Watched all the seasons. Yes, Maw and Paw never had a cross word for each other (lol, definitely not reality TV there). I wanted to be just like Laura Ingalls though. Probably my inspiration to being a little spitfire. Haha

          30. HG Tudor says:

            You are a plane?

          31. MLA - Clarece says:


          32. HG Tudor says:

            Spitfire. It is a plane.

          33. MLA - Clarece says:

            Giggle giggle giggle
            I was having a blonde moment, HG

          34. Indy says:

            Did you have a secret crush on Almonzo (“Manly”) and think Nelly was a budding Narc? Damn, my mother loved both those shows. She watched them all the time on reruns too. I always wanted to watch Night Rider (gags now), ChIPS and Night Gallery. I had a secret crush on Ponch (rolls eyes laughing at self).

          35. NarcAngel says:


            Well it wasntblike there was much of a selection what with the 3 channels and all. (That the narc dispatched us like ball kids at a tennis match to change at his whim btw)

          36. MLA - Clarece says:

            I did not have a crush on Almonzo. Lol Actually, from so many years ago, the one episode that still stands out is when Mary’s husband had his eye surgery that restored his vision and she was terribly insecure that he wouldn’t still want to be with her to run the school for the blind or find her pretty anymore. Being practically legally blind and having Coke bottle glasses back then, I felt limited and was never a Sporty Spice. Of course everything got resolved in one episode with a happy ending and Mary’s husband thinking she was more beautiful than he could have imagined. So not reality! Lol
            Yesssss, I watched Chips and liked Poncho too. What’s up with that? By high school I’d see Erik Estrada and think ewww gross!
            My crush when I was really young (see if you remember this show) Greg Evigan from BJ and the Bear. Could that title even pass nowadays? Lol

          37. NarcAngel says:

            It could maybe pass on Pornhub.

          38. MLA - Clarece says:

            Well, um, yes, I suppose there is that avenue. I wasn’t quite reaching that far. Lollll

          39. Indy says:

            Hi MLA (teasing up there). It was funny seeing laur la get all gooey over Manly. Lol What is it about Eric Estrada? So funny my sis and I both had crushes on him! You too?!? Well, I feel a little comforted now, I thought it was because we were isolated Vermonters. .Yessss, BJ and the Bear!! Hahahaha I do remember!

            Ha NA!
            You are so right3 channels means limited images of men that are attractive. But boys had some great eye candy with Charlie’s Angels and……Facts of Life (hehe). I think even the girls had crushes on Joe! She was cool.

          40. NarcAngel says:

            I never looked at the boys twice. Seriously-even that young it was Pa Ingalls for me or none at all.

          41. Indy says:

            Nice reference, great show. Cooking meth would get dicey with those beards! There would be an entire episode why brother Thomas burned his beard off, the mark of the METH! Dun dun dunnnnnn

          42. HG Tudor says:

            Don’t do drugs Indy and stay in school.

          43. Indy says:

            Would never touch the stuff. I’m gluten and dairy free, you know! It’s hard enough to find gluten free brownies 😂😂😂😂

          44. C★ says:

            I have a recipe for those, Indy… for real, but we’re not allowed to discuss recipes here, says THEE Man

          45. NarcAngel says:


            Well shake your little money maker!!! Thats a great idea. I’d subscribe to that channel!!

          46. MLA - Clarece says:

            Lol – my one and only fan!
            I’m half the equation. If only we knew the biggest, baddest Narc of all. God, I’m racking my brain here…

          47. superxena says:

            Hello Indy!
            It is to bad that we can’t “speak “!!!I have always liked the more direct interaction…I find very hard to express myself by writing…
            I find this answer of yours very valuable. Your analysis of this hypothetical scenario is very straight forward. Yes, it would be very risky and with many downsides for both . Although I think that the narcissist’s partner would be the one paying the highest price due to the narcissist’s complete lack of empathy. And then: why should a narcissist do it anyway?
            Psych field ethics? I assume you speak about some “ethic codes” within the psychologists? Like informing the partner the “risks” involved in such therapy?
            It is curious,but the last psychology we attended to as a couple “warned”/informed me about the risks /downsides of continuing therapy with him. She said that if a change could be achieved..it could take years and that I would be dedicating my life to this and that I would probably be more eroded. As you said :even when the mask is off, that side is still there. Didn’t sound very promising and I was already kind of eroded so I took the decision of cutting off the therapy and leaving him.
            After 6 years together and 5 different therapists…I stopped believing on him..and I lost respect for him.
            Not an easy thing to do to leave him…It felt like I was going through hell in the beginning…. now feeling a lot less “hellish”..
            Have you “treated ” people with NPD? It seems you know the effects of fuel depletion ? Would like to know more about it!
            Strange while writing this , one of “his” songs “popped up “on the radio Pink Floyd’s “Wish you were here” ….so off with the radio now!!!!

          48. Indy says:

            Well, to be honest, HG, you are already doing it. Too late to stop now!

      4. ava101 says:

        OMG HG, @ “always wondered why they seemed always so happy”.

        When I started to become aware of the kind of abuse I was dealing with with my exnarc, I watched a movie about a “famous” real case of a mother, who tortured several of her daughters to death. Noone believed them, nobody helped, one tried to run away and was returned. The brother helped the mother beating his sisters, etc.

        I couldn’t undestand the whole thing, but especially not why several daughters stayed long after they were old and big enough to defend themselves against their mother and to get away. Also why siblings would help their mother in the abuse.

        I read through same online forums, and one person commented that “you don’t know another reality when you grow up with one family, in a certain home. You don’t know anything else, you can’t compare and you don’t know that it can be different, that other families live another kind of life.”.

        And he stated that – he always HATED TV series like the Waltons because they were so unrealistic. That he just couldn’t understand why anyone would make up and show such TV shows that had nothing to do with real life.

        Of course. And this is exactly what people from non-abusive homes don’t understand – that this is your reality, that there is no 2nd family to compare with, that this is the reality your mother teaches you.


        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Yes, Ava. I agree with what that guy you read about said. I always hated all those tv programs that showed happy, loving families because they were so completely unrealistic. Same thing for commercials that showed everyone happy sitting around tables being friendly. There was no way I could imagine such scenes could exist in reality and why make all these shows and commercials in such an impossible reality?

      5. Narc affair says:

        Marys blind hubby was hot! Lol almonzo too!

    2. Narc affair says:

      I loved little house on the prairie and own the series. In school i did a presentation on laura ingalls wilder a writer and teacher. A lot of the show is based on true facts. There is a plum creek, town of sleepy eye and walnut grove. They hold a on the banks of plum creek live play in july annually. Theres a laura ingalls highway that runs thru a part of Minnesota and i think 3 museums. One day id love to visit. She became a writer later on in her life.
      The amish way of life has always fascinated me. I really like their shaker style of handmade furniture.
      Out east in Ontario we have Amish with their black buggies. Theyve tried to pass legislation to get them off the highways bc of accidents.
      Out west we have hutterites. I visited a colony in highschool. Theyre of german descent. They are seen around town and at our farmers markets.
      I think a reality show where a narcissist is sent to live in an amish community for a year would be very interesting lol I cant envision HG churning butter and operating farm machinery 😄

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Ha ha maybe but I would soon have them doing it for me.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          You wouldn’t have to, you’re a man. You’d be talking your way out of field work. I’m sure you’d quickly spot the empaths and the other narcissists. They surely have just as many as anywhere else. I would think that type of rigid, male dominated society would be a haven for narcs.

      2. MLA - Clarece says:

        OMG! That’s awesome NA! Do you think Nellie was a narcissist? Lol

        1. Indy says:

          Sorry, I just referenced she was a budding Narc and just saw your comment to NA! I mean, that glare!!! She was a “golden child”. And her mother!!! Ugh!!! The mild and meek husband lol

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            Ah yes, the husband. Our first glimpse at a Doormat.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I wondered why the human race didnt die out completely during that period of history (Little House, Bonanza, and Westerns in general). I swear whenever there was a romantic scene, I used to think: how can she get excited about getting next to his cheesy nuts after being bound in denim and leather for a week without a bath? Although they were resourceful people so perhaps a clove in each nostril did the trick.

      3. ava101 says:

        The Village was always one of my favorite movies.

        Little house, etc.:
        a) I always liked Shannon Doherty best.
        b) Read the books first, too. Loved them.
        And the mother could be very assertive. We actually learned about these frontier wives in school, and were told that American where more independent / self-dependent because of that legacy.

      4. Narc affair says:

        I dont doubt that HG 😂
        Id seen a reality show with the 90’s singer Vanilla Ice where he lived in an Amish community. He seemed to enjoy it lol im not sure as far as technology if they have the internet or not. Im guessing not. They do give tours. Something on my to do list when im back in Ontario. It amazes me people can live this way still. Im sure they have less diseases given their organic foods, exercise and healthier living.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Some of the Amish and Mennonite have been caught at the border transporting drugs, so I guess theyre not all adverse to that lucrative market and home churning butter. Someone has to pay for all those hideous dresses and plaid shirts. They save a lot of money on hair though lol.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Going your way or leaving your way NA?

          2. NarcAngel says:

            U.S into Canada.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            The rascals.

          4. Windstorm2 says:

            We call them entrepreneurs.

      5. Narc affair says:

        Mla…nellie was my favorite character lol the original actress. The other girl the olsens adopted was a good narcissist too tho lol There were quite a few successful actors frim that show. Micheal landon was the core of it tho. He was a great guy!

        My favorite nellie scene. ..


      6. Narc affair says:

        I think laura was a super empath lol

      7. AH OH says:

        My mothers side was from Reading Pa.
        Lancaster Pa is full of Amish. We always take a trip to intercouse PA whenever I visit Maryland. The quilting is some of the best. One of my favorite bedding covers is a quilt I purchased in Intercourse. I do not use it at this time but I do like to admire it when I open the box it is in.
        HG, I will send s few pics I have via email.

        Stories galore on this interesting sect of people.

      8. Narc affair says:

        Mr olsen definitely seemed like a doormat but there were a few scenes he put mrs olsen in her place and she was more respectful…temporarily lol the same with nellie when she met her jewish hubby he had to do the same.
        I think nancy the olsens adopted daughter mightve been a worse narc than nellie. Willie was just goofy willie but he felt the effects of nellies favortism im sure.

  27. Susanne says:

    HG, I have a question for you. Why not try truth with one person, perhaps the one who is very close to seeing you for who you are? My study of this says that it is a survival mechanism to protect yourself from being hurt as a child. But, it no longer serves you as an adult? If you shared your truth with one person, let’s call it an experiment.. How would that affect your survival?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      When you write “your truth” what do you mean by that Susanne?

      1. Yolo says:

        Maybe you should be the warden in the movie Girl interrupted and NA play Angelina Jolie.

        1. NarcAngel says:


          NA is getting confusing as people use it for NarcAngel and also NarcAffair, but if you meant me, I loved that movie and identified with Lisa so I’ll take that as a compliment whatever your intent. Maybe I should change my name here to Crazy people and ice cream.

          Thank you for reminding me of that movie-I think I’ll watch it again.

  28. ava101 says:


    Topic 1: But I really liked him, he was cute and totally my type and very fulfilling!

    Topic 2: Do you think it’s possible that a victim somatic plays a sub?

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I dont understand #1. Is that from a previous comment? I looked but I must be missing it.
      #2 is not only possible but I have experienced it.

      1. ava101 says:

        Hi NarcAngel,

        my comment ended up at the wrong place, never mind nr. 1, that was regarding my affair. Not important.

        Nr. 2. Ohhh!! Thank you. And he would play that role full-on? Enjoying being subjected to beatings, being bossed around? Then acting like he was victimized? Provoking punishments?

        1. NarcAngel says:


          #2. Yes to all.

      2. ava101 says:

        Thank you NarcAngel.
        Interesting, and my intuition was right.

        And did you feel drained by him anyways?

        1. NarcAngel says:

          No. My interaction with him was limited. We did not live together or see each other exclusively. Also, the only man who will ever drain me will be an Undertaker.

          1. Windstorm2 says:


      3. ava101 says:

        Thank you! NarcAngel. 🙂

  29. ava101 says:


    I think NarcAngel has condensed it very nicely. 🙂
    I totally agree.

    My exnarc also was like yours. Though he did also worship his private parts as you say. ;D Just not in a normal way and not with his partner. I am also sure that he didn’t have sex with others while I was in a relationship with him.

    But I wouldn’t bee too sure that he didn’t use sex to seduce others, while we were “friends” after the official relationship, while telling me he never had sex. Seducing others just for the fun of it, not for starting an intimate relationship.

    However, your dilemma: you don’t have to limit yourself or restrict yourself. Put your own needs first and have a nice intimate relationship with a normal man, and try to be friends with a cerebral narc (good luck with that though).

    1. Virginia says:

      Thank you for your reply.

      My 2 cerebral narc bf’s loved the power they got by withholding sex and always making excuses for why we didn’t have sex in a long time. I have a normal level of desire and needs, and to be out off so they could watch tv, etc. became apparent to me that:

      #1:They had a lack of desire for sex and they only wanted fuel.

      #2:Knowing what I needed and they wouldn’t provide to that to me, gave them power and control.

      #3: When they did provide it, it didn’t last long. It was like a machine that was turned on and off and they couldn’t wait to get out of bed and do other things.

      #4: If the CN’s approached me with a kiss that was one thing, but if I approached them, I felt that they didn’t
      like that. I just felt this dread come over me thT. Should never be the approaches. The narcs must always dictate how and when they apply affection verses abuse. In their minds they are the captain. They hate intimacy.

      1. Virginia says:

        Sorry about all of the typos. I was typing in a hurry😬I wish there was a way to go back and edit posts.

    2. Ava101,

      You were friends after the “relationship” ended?? Did you become an intimate secondary source? How did you manage to not go crazy being friends? Didn’t it kill you inside?

      1. ava101 says:

        Lynnie, there is an answer further down, with many typos. I have some trouble replying on my tablet. 😉

  30. Flickatina says:

    Morning HG & all….

    I have a question….I am assuming that Elites/Somatics will tend to gravitate towards very attractive women but do Cerebrals & Victims have a preference? Is the empath thing more important to them than looks?

    Effectively – can one protect oneself by being overweight and unattractive or will that only protect against Elites & Somatics?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If you read Sitting Target this addresses these points Flickatina.

      1. Flickatina says:

        That was the first book of yours I read…although it was six months ago and I have slept since then. I’ll read it again…..

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Protecting yourself by being overweight and unattractive seems drastic when you could just say: Piss off you ghoul. I mean the reat of us still have to look at you. Wheres your empathy?

      1. Flickatina says:

        Bahahahahaha! Sorry my lovely! I’ll crack on with the diet and botox just for you. x

  31. lucycarrozza says:

    Is stonewalling an empathic or narcissistic trait?

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. KT says:

      If its bad or manipulative its narcissistic. That’s your cue😃

  32. Jody Allen says:

    First of all I want to thank you for coming forward and stepping up to explain what this all means and in a way that we can all understand. I know that who and what you are leaves you wide open for criticism and the poster child of blame for everyone who is just like you. I, also, know that you are not like this on purpose, and thank you for trying to use your “evil’ for good.
    I wanted to tell you my story, but I’m guessing that you have heard my story so many times before and in so many ways, all with the same result. The same tragic ending…It must get pretty repetitive for you, everyone always needing answers to the great question: “Why?”
    Those of us who are left behind and thrown away like a piece of trash, those of us who wonder why or how we could be so stupid and blind because we have been through this at least once before(but never had a name for it), those of us who nearly jumped off the ledge into insanity or contemplated suicide because the truth of the Great Lie is too much to accept… do we all do this dance with the devil in the name of Love? No matter that it is our own and very skewed version of what love should be?
    Even 3 weeks later after leaving him, after 5 years of abuse in every imaginable form,( physically, emotionally, psychologically and financially), I still cannot find enough strength to be angry, and maybe that’s because I’m still in denial or trying to separate the lover from the abuser. I have broken No Contact so recklessly in my grief that he has had no chance to try to Hoover me, I have, sadly, done all of the ground work for him…just to have one response (even though its filled with blame and hate) just to beg and plead with him (with my inner voice screaming at me: “Are you, in fact, Crazy? WTF are you doing?!”) I can only be grateful that I am 1600 miles away because, I honestly, would have crawled back on bloody knees.
    I say these things that make me feel very uncomfortable and open to criticism from others, to shine light on what is my truth. I was with this man almost every single day for the last 5 almost 6 years. Taking care of him, his kids, his business, his home. I was the one who orbited around him to try to keep him safe from the harm of the outside world who misunderstood him. And I ignored the abuse. I ignored myself, my health and my well being, only to end up as another statistic.
    To be just as sick as he is…because being sick together seems so much better than experiencing the hell and torture that I am feeling right now.
    There seems to be a lot of talk about the Empath being the victim (I’m sorry, I have a really hard time with that word because it has been used as a quick buzz word to shut me down and put me back in my “place”) but what most people don’t realize or say is that, while we would certainly not go seek out an abusive relationship, we are more susceptible to abuse because we want to fix and heal at any cost. So we end up contributing to our own abuse. Abuse by proxy.
    I hope in the future that I will be able to tell a story of healing and finding my self esteem and value again. I hope that I can eventually help guide others down this hellish path and tell them that they will be okay on the other side, but right now, I cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel and I have to live my life hour by hour and try to keep myself on task just to not break No Contact.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      “To be just as sick as he is…because being sick together seems so much better than experiencing the hell and torture that I am feeling right now.” – an excellent sentence.

      1. MLA - Clarece says:

        Interesting that you honed in immediately to that HG.

      2. Jody Allen says:

        The “safe” bubble I had created around my life has burst and I’m as exposed as a newborn baby, with the inability to heal and to face my own sickness and my own narcissism in this, because I know it was there, too, I won’t hide from that. Or place total blame, as I said, I abhor the word “victim”
        My only solace to the bursted bubble is that I was the one who held the pin, and did the bursting, but at times I find that I’m angry with myself for doing what clearly needed to be done, like I said, living in my own denial was safe for me no matter how messed up that sounds. But its all that I have ever known in every relationship I’ve ever had, including the current Narcissist who was my very first, 33 years ago…Do you think I’m addicted to abuse? I never go back to the same person (him being the exception because we were kids) What would that make me? and if I am addicted to abuse, can it be fixed?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are addicted to our kind as a consequence of the emotional infection. Your vulnerability to this arises from your empathic nature and often as a consequence of matters you have experienced when a child. You have the means to not only evade our kind so your susceptibility is less of a risk but to work to minimise that susceptibility albeit it cannot be completely erased. There is however much you can do to reduce the risk and do so considerably.

        2. Indy says:

          Jody Allen,
          It is incredibly brave to pop that bubble and continue to stay outside of it. Keep reading, you may find one of the topics HG writes on, particularly with empaths and codependence something you can relate to.

          I think the most important thing right now is to give yourself credit for getting out and starting the healing process. Yes, you can heal. And, if you are anything like me (and many others hear), you will always draw narcissists to you. (I have drawn a few) The key is to recognize them before you get attached and hooked. Are you newly escaped or are you still in the primary relationship with the narcissist? Sorry if you have already shared this, I missed that part. I just wanted you to know you are in good company here and we all know the character it takes to survive and begin the leaving/healing process.

          Healing vibes your way,

        3. Indy says:

          Hi Jody Allen,
          (part two) I just saw your message above. Your strength will come back with time. Trust me! It took me 30-60 days of no contact to get it back to a level where my head stopped spinning. For me, it is coming up on one year, and I am finally thinking about life outside my healing. It takes time. Be patient and gentle with yourself. You are in a good place here!

      3. ava101 says:

        you can research dopamine addiction (and also trauma bond), which also occurs through abuse, it is released before the next abusive strike happens. I think it can be changed the same way other addictions can be changed. I am still researching and experimenting myself, though.

        The other part is the patterns from childhood conditioning, as HG says.

        This might be directly connected but who can say, how.

      4. mymasterstoy says:

        That one sentence sums up my existence since I met him

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Jody Allen
      No need to be uncomfortable-you have much company here. You used two words in your last paragraph that show you do see light at the end of the tunnel: hope and future. Continuing to come here to read the articles and share with others will help you to hold no contact and allow for them. Welcome.

      1. Yolo says:

        Hi. My name is You, Only, Live, Once and I am a narcaholic..

        Okay, I went first who’s next? BTW, the only narc I cant stay away from is HG..hes like good red wine…comes with health benefits. 😊

        1. Jody Allen says:

          LOL YOLO!
          Hi my name Jody and I’m a narcoholic!
          I only attract Narcs, so I need to learn to use their seduction tactics against them to get the great sex that they only give in the beginning and then move on to the next.. 🙂 😉

    3. Windstorm2 says:

      Well Jody, you are in the right place here. I’ve certainly been right where you are now and so have many of us here. I remember very vividly being trapped in that tunnel you mentioned.
      When I was younger I was very afraid of real tunnels (not just figurative) – and still very uncomfortable with them to be honest. I have to remind myself every time I enter one that if it has a way in, it has to have a way out. If I keep driving forward, I’ll come out the other end.
      This tunnel you’re in now is the same. Just keep moving forward and it’s just a matter of time till you will see the light and eventually you’ll emerge out the other side. Don’t get discouraged if you stop for awhile or even go backwards for a time. Just turn back around and start moving again towards where you know the end must be. You will get there!

    4. Twilight says:

      Jody Allen

      You are not alone here, speak your truth. The way you experience what happened. Many can relate and support you.
      You are right it is like being in a tunnel where once the light was on then turned off and your plunged into darkness.
      Soon you will be running under the sun once again.

      Your sentence
      To be just as sick as he is…because being sick together seems so much better than experiencing the hell and torture that I am feeling right now.

      I am sure many here can relate to this

      1. mymasterstoy says:

        In my journal I wrote a sentence to my Narc. “You are pure evil and will have your own special corner of hell. And I would spiral down with you, right by your side, just to spend one more night with you”

    5. Lisa says:

      Your comment was very engaging Jody. I feel your pain. We all do. Ive been studying this subject for around 3 years now. It seemed everyone else but me, was getting ahead with their journey. For me it just wasnt happening. Until very recently my life was all about wondering. Wondering when I would feel better? Wondering when can I stop putting in the hard yards? Wondering when will my anger subside? Wondering when will I have a life again?
      Suddenly, out of nowhere it seems (although I know its not), the cloud has lifted. I can breathe again. I can move more freely through my life. I actually never thought it would happen. The light at the end of the tunnel is real, and tangible, and is there waiting for you, as it was for me. One day you will wake up and suddenly know, feel and see, you have your life back. It truly is like a breath of fresh air.
      Thanks to HG, I can now shine again. And you will too. 😉

      1. lynnyrn says:

        I can’t remember the first time your soul set mine on fire, but it woke it; and truthfully it has never slept since.

        Even when first started realizing he was not good, I wanted to give anything for one more night, for one more, for 5 more minutes, another phone call.

        Then the hell repeats.

        My soul is definitely on fire.

    6. mymasterstoy says:

      No judgement here. I know exactly how you feel. I live 3 miles aeay from mine only to BR graced with his presence o very a week for sex. How said is that? Lol

    7. JA,
      I thought it interesting that you went back because ‘you were kids’.
      My 1st Narcissist and I were together when I was 19. Last year when I got the hoover, I engaged with him and one of the things he does is comment about how we were kids together. I think that puts one in reminiscence of the initial golden period and all the things we did together. We get nostalgic for the way it was and get sucked in again. Remember that you fell in love with an illusion. You loved what you thought were good traits of his in the beginning. They were your traits being mirrored back at you. Sadly we all must face the fact that we were suckered, bamboozled, outwitted. Take the hurt and turn it into rage against him. He purposefully hurt you. Doesn’t that make you want to win by never engaging him again? Sometimes that kind of win doesn’t feel big enough. It has to be though, because the only way you can win is not to play. No Contact is the only way. You got this, remember to not minimize the abuse or glamorise the good.

      1. Jody Allen says:

        Thank You Anna Belle Black.
        You are right on so many levels. The truth is that 33 years ago, he 19 me 16, he cheated on me and I broke it off right away. My first initial thought about meeting up with him again and rekindling anything with him was a gut punch “no”, but I got caught up in the romantics and fairytale ending that everyone else was ooing and ahhing about…but it was instantaneous and passionate. We did discuss the past, and he would say things like “I’m not with you because of the past”, which in fact the opposite was true..it must really piss him off immensely that I dumped him twice, even though that was never my intention.
        I’m hoping that I can eventually stop contacting him, I know it only makes me look bad, I’m also hoping that anger will catch up with me and I can turn this around. I don’t need revenge that’s just not my style. Moving on and being my own source of love is the best revenge I could have on anyone.

    8. C★ says:

      Dear Jody… I have been numb and unable to feel or cry for a very very long long time, until I read this. You opened my flood gates….

    9. superxena says:

      Hello Jody Allen!
      What a deep emotional post of yours! I can understand the hell you are going through just by reading this sentence: “To be just as sick as he is…because being sick together seems so much better than experiencing the hell and torture that I am feeling right now.”
      I know it feels like that now and it is certainly hard to go through that emotional battle.. but believe me : it is not going to feel like that any longer.
      The HELL you went through with HIM IS MUCH MORE “hellish” than the own you are going through now… You have not realised that yet but it will all clear out for you soon.. Just keep no contact!!! There are three very good articles here that speak about the “Three battles”: If you have not read them.. do it.. They will help you a lot!
      Best wishes

  33. Lisa says:

    Me? I belive I am a SuperEmpath. Only after reading/hearing/learning from you HG have I come to understand this. I can remember saying to the tHiNg, “you have met your match”, although I didnt think I was quite as ‘bad’ as he was, but I did know I could and would, put up a good fight in order to punch (not literally) my way out of the relationship. I know how to ‘give’ until it hurts, as a revenge type thing. And so mote it was….
    Would you concur HG?

  34. Virginia says:

    Regarding Narcs having affairs….

    I was married to a sociopath and (somatic narc) when I was 20 years old. He had several affairs, and I was an investigator finding his lies out.

    But, the 2 Cerebral narcs I have dated and known, I would guarantee that they have never had affairs. I dated one for 3 years and the other for over 5.5 years. The latter I have lived with and worked with for the 5.5 years.

    These 2 narcs are withholders. It is so weird the other way. I get peck kisses once a day if that. That is it. They have been in big professions and sex and affection is the last thing that is on their minds.

    I would figure that they used self stimulation, but no affairs. They were and are around me.They love my company, they find me attractive, etc. but hell, they just don’t seem to have normal desires. They worship their minds not their private parts. I have been tempted to just
    start dating a normal guy. I have needs that are ignored for years. Then, I don’t go out dating because I miss the highly intellectual conversations and entrepreneurship that we exchange conversations about.

    Feeling a bit stuck at this time. But, I know that the relationship will never evolve.

    I am bringing this up, because I have not seen any signs of infidelity and I am an expert at sniffing that out.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Narcs dont do affection so its beyond last on their mind. Affection is tolerated only to further their aims but not to fulfill any need they have. (And they dont care about yours). They enjoy your fuel. That is your purpose to them along with any other benefits you provide. So I guess you have to ask yourself if the intellectual conversations are enough for you. Seems you could get that from others since a lot of their “intellect” is bullshit anyway, and have intimacy which seems important to you. You dont have to live with them to talk to them.

      1. Virginia says:

        Yes. That is true. I live with my current CN because we are colleagues working on startups together. We are working intensely 14 hours a day, it is only temporary.

        I have never found any “normal’ people who are as intellectual and business wise, intelligent like I have with my 2 CN’s.

        Yes. I am really wanting and planning on meeting normal men in the near future. I give a lot and I deserve a lot in return. 👍

        I have read over 2,000 pages on NPD before finding out about HG. I know a lot, but o am still taken back by narcs. It is just so crazy making…

    2. Windstorm2 says:

      I was married to a cerebral for 30 years – never any sign of him having an affair. I don’t think he’s even dated anyone in the 10 years we’ve been divorced.

      I know what you mean about liking the conversation. Me too. Talking to mine is a highlight in my life. Not just having the highly intellectual conversations, but being able to discuss events and people in my life and get his take on the psychological aspects. Shoot, we even discuss this blog! He cracks me up with his portrayals of different types of narcs in various situations! He has a wicked sense of humor!

      Being with mine has ruined me on normal guys. They all seem so stupid. I hate to be sexist, but I just can not stand a stupid man.

      But NarcAngel is right. You don’t have to live with them to talk to them. I have a really good relationship with my exhusband now. We talk nearly every day. We go out to dinner and movies, even sometimes take short trips together. But that’s possible because I have my own home with my own life that I control – not him. I’d never be able to keep control of anything if I lived with him.

  35. E. B. says:

    Sorry, I meant the like buttons are back.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Yes theyre back but I dont LIKE them-theyre anonymous. But its something and were used to crumbs……………

      1. HG Tudor says:

        A crumb from the table of HG is a banquet to others.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Yes. Thank you my Leige.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            That’s more like it!

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I mean Liege

        3. MLA - Clarece says:


      2. Yolo says:

        Didn’t know where to stick this comment.

        Me talking about sticking and licking, i am definitely not the moral police.

        It’s something about infidelity that eats at me. I am a hot mess but, have never been attracted to a person in a relationship. Knowingly….I think its because I witness a very close friend go through it with her husband. I don’t think it’s the act itself but the trust between one another.

        They were able to rebuild the trust, just celebrated 25 year anniversary they marries at 18 and 20. But the pain she felt still lingers with me.

        Btw, it was only once with a co-worker from a dare. He couldn’t sleep for 2 nights then confessed on the 3rd day.

        Of course we can only expect that from normal people😊 Well he’s the norm.

        I am sorry if i offended anyone.

      3. Jody Allen says:

        Narc Angel

        This is a reply to your reply to Misty (Sorry, there wasn’t a reply option available so you may have to scroll up some)

        You wrote: “You see its not that theyre so good at the game but that Empaths offer it up on a platter because of their own narcissistic beliefs that they can fix anything, show you the right way, and bring happiness to all they encounter.
        Sometimes Im not sure which side is more narcissistic. They both just have different intent and perception about their motives”

        That paragraph absolutely blew me away, because it is so on point! You are, without a doubt, right about how we think we can do all of that and more. I’ve questoned before as to whether Empaths gather fuel, too. And I do believe we do. It is in a different form and for a different reason, but it still smells of narcissism because it’s still feeding the ego.

        Anyway, thank you for posting that and for keeping it real. Knowing myself and my malfunctions are just as important as knowing who my narcissist is.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Jody Allen
          Thank you. Im glad you found some value in that. I dont say these things to be mean. I believe until people can accept that about themselves they can not take their power back from the N and remain in victim mode-allowing for it to likely happen again.

    2. Yolo says:

      Triangulate H.G. lol.
      Buttons, comments
      Lovers , friends all the same😊Touche’

      1. E. B. says:


        The bell and the Like button are getting more attention than him lately. This cannot go on like this. 🙂

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I know-were headed for a silent treatment. I keep thinking the next Igniters of Fury will be:

          Bells and Likes

          With a pic of an Empath getting theirs rung.

          1. E. B. says:


            Hahaha 🙂 More about Bells and Likes on The Incredible Sulk.
            A huge criticism would be if HG gets a Golden Bell from WP and we have Platinum ones.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Pah, as if that would ever happen.

          3. Twilight says:


            my comment would be s’mores anyone?
            As I pulled up a chair and enjoy the warmth of a fire 🔥
            Ok it would be a firestorm and I would have my firesuit on as I watch my chair melt to a puddle.

            I put this entire mess in the fuck it and chuck it bucket and my trust in the man of the house will get this mess straightened out and make us empaths happy again.
            Believe me thou I am a repeating this to will end and the sun shall shine again.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Trusting a Narc to be concerned with making Empaths happy?
            Go to remedial.

          5. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            I am going to practice some blame shifting…..the wine was talking.

  36. E. B. says:

    The Like comments are back! Thank you, HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome

      1. strongerwendy says:

        HG, can you see who likes your comments or are they anonymous for you too?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is anonymous.

          1. strongerwendy says:

            do you care if they are anonymous or did you like the old way where you could see who liked your posts/comments?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I am relaxed either way.

  37. Ali says:

    HG, Someone mentioned above personality types… Do you think it affects what we are? Be it narc or the kind of empath?

    INFJ here

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Possibly albeit I have not studied any such correlation with those personality types in detail. I have looked at the categorisations and can see how they can be read in different ways, I commented about this probably about a year or more ago.

  38. KT says:

    Hi HG. What type of empath are the variety who have affairs and are Dirty little secrets? It boggles my mind trying to understand how ab empath can be unfaithful or have an affair. Where is the empathy for your spouse or the narcs wife when you have affairs?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Valid point. Infidelity is a narcissistic trait but of course it can readily be bundled up in lots of empathic traits so that person is not a narcissist. There is no type, but you would have, say a Standard Empath with a narcissistic element.

      1. KT says:

        Would you please do some more research on this? I think infedility cancels empathy. True empathy is ingrained in a person. Its like an empath murdering someone for her own satisfaction not protection. Doesn’t make sense to me

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Horny unfulfilled ones.

      1. Yolo says:

        I second that…i know narcs are manipulators and once entangled its hard to stop. What is the thought process/ morality before the entanglement? I may think of the mid somatic softly sometimes but i will sew it up before letting him lick or stick again.
        Sorry, HG off of meds again. Due to testing 😊

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I was actually making a joke to KT. I cannot talk, and would not judge others on morality regarding sex Lick it and stick it did make me laugh though.

          1. mymasterstoy says:

            Made me spew my coffee! I know the feeling. I have a Narc presently but he’s so damn confusing I do t know where he fits other than victim Somatic possibly high lesser or low mid lol. He’s all over the place. And he’s as addicted to me as I am him. He’s not killing me mentally anymore now that I e been reading and learning. He’s more of a live case study. And I’m not giving sex that good up for no reason right now! Everything he reflects back at me…. wow. I’m bathing in it. Know it’s not real. Think that makes me Glutton for Punishment Empath. The first time I totally lost it in him he actually told me later that he LOVED it! Had never had anyone give it as good as he could before. (It was better)

          2. NarcAngel says:

            I should think victim somatic is enough to deal with. As long as youre not kidding yourself that good sex will lead to a good relationship do your thing. Use him and lose hiim, but you are leaving yourself open to manipulation.
            Personal question and if its too personal I understand. Your name appears to indicate that you are a sub. I dont know how long you have been with this person, but do you have any concerns about your safety in giving control over to someone who believes it is his right anyway?

            Please read HGs book Sex and the Narcissist.
            Be safe

          3. mymasterstoy says:

            I’ve been with him a year. Yes I’m sub. He has never hurt me. He lives it 24/7. Not just in the bedroom. I’ve already. Even through the manipulation and he took me for a lot of mi eye in the beginning. We don’t have a relationship other than sex. We rarely ever see each other if he isn’t wanting sex. But I got news for him. In e a week isn’t enough for this girl. No matter how good it is! Lol

      2. ava101 says:

        But you’re right. When my exnarc didn’t want to have sex, I saw no reason why I should become abstinent.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Atta girl. Not every bang is an epic love affair. Sometimes you jus needa bump uglies.

      3. KT says:

        So then empathy goes out the window? Lol.

      4. KT says:

        And then empathy goes out the window? Lol

    3. Narc affair says:

      Kt…theres never any excuse for an affair but humans are complex and there are many empaths that have had affairs for differing reasons. I feel very deeply for my spouse but there are factors which i wont go into the lead me down this path. Was it the right path? No it wasnt and ill suffer the consequences of my choices. It doesnt take away who i am and thats a person who deeply feels for people but empaths make bad decisions too. Being an empath doesnt mean youre perfect. Being an empath narc victim even moreso. Like a narcissist i have past baggage that ive not dealt with that i can see lead me in certain directions in my life but despite this im still very much an empath.

      1. BraveHeart 💘 says:

        I’ll ditto your comment, Narc Affair. Your words are my sentiments exactly. It’s not something I’m at all proud of and, like you, I have paid the consequences. If there is one thing I can say, it’s that I learned the most valuable lesson of my lifetime by going through the affair. It led me to this site and taught me to never take that path again. I also learned that the affair partner’s spouse is also being abused and she was never the problem in their marriage. In many ways, I wish I could go back and do things differently, but as I said, I’ve learned valuable lessons and I would never trade those by going back. 💘

      2. SVR says:

        Some people will have a ‘play’ but it’s nothing serious in the end. There is obviously something wrong but they may not know what, but the subconcious does.

      3. KT says:

        Each one to their own

    4. mistynolan01 says:

      Here’s how: you meet a married man who sells you a sob story about how awful his marriage is and how much he loves his wife and has tried so hard to make it work. You see a good man trying to make his marriage work and see his wife as an unappreciative bitch. You only want to show him that it’s not his fault; that he is trying and you are there for him. Next thing you know your empathic self is in bed with a married man.

      1. SVR says:

        Fantastically said

      2. NarcAngel says:


        Devils Advocate because………well……I am.

        I understand completely how it happens and I am not passing judgement, but there are a few things for an Empath to consider in this example or situation. The “you” is not you specifically.

        Why is he telling you about his shitty marriage and how is that your concern? Manipulation.

        If he was trying so hard to make it work he wouldnt be peddling their personal business all over and looking for a sympathetic ear while remaining with her if not for his own personal gain. (and he will do this to you but you dont believe that because you are better and more intelligent than her right?).

        Why is it up to you to swoop in to show him that he need not suffer an unappreciative bitch and can be rewarded with your attention, to assure him it is not his fault (when you have no proof), and be there for him? An Empaths inherent need to fix.

        Once again the Empath has put his need for happiness ahead of her own. Will actually cross her own line in the sand to save another. A little narcissistic that your love is so great that you can fix and reward him no? You have seen many examples of this with other couples but this is different right?

        Unless that “fixing” him was just a smokescreen for:

        I want him at any cost and can absolve myself of any blame because I was doing a good thing in “saving” him.
        Its a trap either way and youre lying to yourself. You have responsibilty here in that the signs were there and you chose to ignore them for the “win” (and what a prize).

        You see its not that theyre so good at the game but that Empaths offer it up on a platter because of their own narcissistic beliefs that they can fix anything, show you the right way, and bring happiness to all they encounter.
        Sometimes Im not sure which side is more narcissistic. They both just have different intent and perception about their motives.

      3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD says:

        On point lol!

  39. Yolo says:

    ” Fucking a” is used by the cholo Hispanic gang members around these parts. Lol, if you hear it you’d better run.😂😂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thanks for the heads up Yolo.

    2. MLA - Clarece says:

      I really miss the “like” button right now! Too funny Yolo!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It’s there.

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          No, it disappeared again on my end whether computer or phone. But I am a glass half full kind of girl with my email and bell notifications. Lol

          1. Indy says:

            Mine have disappeared too, MLA.

          2. MLA - Clarece says:

            Told ya HG! Boom!
            Hi Indy, I am following all of your comments still. Big fan of you, always! ❤

          3. Indy says:

            Aww thank you MLA! the feeling is definitely mutual 😊❤️ I hate the changes but love this blog/writers/author too much to stay away 🙂

        2. Windstorm2 says:

          Not for me yet.

      2. Star says:

        Mines gone too.

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          It changes by the hour… now a mysterious purple hand is there for the “like” symbol.
          Hello there, can we be friends Mr. Hand? Please stay awhile. I play nice.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            OMG!!!! I’ve just been reading and replying to emails for awhile. Just went to the blog on WP and all I have is a scroll of HGs articles! No comments at all and no way to comment!! No way to choose an article with out scrolling thru all the text of every article.
            Sure hope this doesnt stay!!
            Wonder if WP has another virus?

          2. Indy says:

            Yep, purple hand. I think this is a study 🤔 How quickly do we adapt to less optimal changes. Accepting crumbs….The most flexible and tolerant wins…or looses. Circ de Tude’

          3. strongerwendy says:

            I liked your purple hand 🙂

      3. E. B. says:

        My Like buttons for comments disappeared too.
        (Like buttons for articles, bell and email notifications for comments are working.)

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Yes I’m almost at full functioning capacity with WP! Story of my life! Lol

          1. E. B. says:

            WP programmers added new good features to the blog but forgot to test or activate the old ones.
            HG has been extremely patient with us and with WP O:-)

  40. Yolo says:

    I just realized my questions were answered earlier in the post regarding why posters could identify what type of empath the were on your other article but was unsure on the poll.

  41. Indy says:

    I have been very hesitant to label myself, as I have a love-hate relationship with “diagnoses” and labels. As I have said before, labels/diagnoses are powerful, validating, and positive in some cases, stigmatizing and limiting in other instances, and other cases they are harmful, especially when misused. I also think I am too biased to fully assess myself objectively. I do feel connected with the label “energy empath”. I feel others deeply. I feel land deeply. I have been ensnared by several toxic individuals, two of the past exes fall cleanly into the narcissistic label and acted just like you describe here, HG. I escaped and did so with dignity and strength. I do have narcissistic qualities, particularly my strong desire of achievement and sought recognition of that as well in the past. It defined me then and caused a lot of pain, defining myself by my roles and CV. I have learned to rise above this need most days, though some days I fall back into that arrogance. I also can engage in self care without any guilt(always been able to do this). And cut ties when it is the best thing for my health. However, I also have had a strong urge to heal and “fix”…a thing that is very co-dependent. I stay too long as well. So, I am hesitant to say I am more than an energy empath, though I have traits that make me a kick ass warrior in life. I see these things, these stumbles, these dances as lessons. As I do all my relationships, breakups, deaths, misfortunes, and illnesses. These all have the potential to teach us/me and help us evolve. I believe we CAN evolve in this life. We can rise above certain “weaknesses” and heal and not always be doomed to “co-dependency” or “attachment issues”. It is that hope in me that keeps me going…

  42. D says:

    I’m a super empath. I love supporting people as an adviser/healer. I also see that it meets a narcissistic need to have purpose and be appreciated.
    I am also resilient to power plays, but have a wrathful side to me where I take joy in my enemies being PUNISHED for trying to take advantage of me, even when I still care for them. Which is why it’s challenging emotionally but simultaneously easy for me to implement no contact swiftly.
    I also see this as compassionate towards myself and the enemy. The same way disciplining a child would be.

  43. Jessica says:

    I was a co dependent. I didn’t have much faith in myself. I didn’t think I could make it on my own but I am doing it. My abuser is a RN of all things well making over 100 000 or close to it. So with the title and the money to be had it was a dream come true especially when we fell in love. Or so I thought.

    1. Kensani says:

      What is a RN?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Registered Nurse is my guess.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          If shes landed on this doorstep and hes RN it could mean really nuts.

      2. Narc affair says:

        Yes its registered nurse a step up from a LPN licensed practical nurse.

      3. Yes Registered Nurse. Associates Degree is two years from a technical school. Bachelors four years from a university. After graduation you take the NCLEX to receive your license to be valid practicing RN in which ever state it is applicable. LPN is a practical nurse who works under the direction of an RN. It requires one year practical degree. What you are able to do varies state to state or country to country I supppse. The RN can only ever assess. She has the ultimate responsibility of all under her.
        If this helps even more 😊

      4. Geminimom,

        Wow! I’m coming where you are!! I worked in the cardiac cath lab at a Magnet Hospital, in a teaching hospital, and even with call, I didn’t come close to that. Although I’m only going on 6 years as RN.

    2. Star says:

      Wow lol.. where do you live that an RN makes 100 000? Definitely not here in canada😂

      1. NarcAngel says:

        You can if you count overtime. Also hes a narc so lying is a distinct possibility lol.

      2. Star says:

        👍NarcAngel. ” He’s a Narc and lying is a distinct possibility” lol you are hilarious:)

      3. Geminimom says:

        In America an RN in the OR or certain areas in the wards will start at 80k. Endo nurse starting just under 60k. If you are say in surgery of transplants then you’ll make over 100k. And consider also how many years working. Always go the extra mile for that degree, don’t settle for less if that’s your goal. I’m not a nurse or Make near what they make nor do I want to do that job. I work close enough to them to see how hard they work. And can be stressful.

      4. Narc affair says:

        Geminimom…and lots of politics too. There is a lot of narcissism among nurses and of course doctors as well.

      5. SVR says:

        That’s what I was thinking. Maybe he is lying to you, again!

      6. Not here either in the US, unless you are working possibly as a Director, or somewhat of that nature.
        I wish Star!!!!

        1. Indy says:

          Dang it, I totally went into the wrong business! I did well in the sciences and such, but I hate bodily fluids. A good nurse is worth that money too!

          1. NarcAngel says:

            How can someone who claims to be spunky hate bodily fluids?

          2. Indy says:


            OK, now I am laughing out loud for real…at work!!

          3. Windstorm2 says:

            Well I have never claimed to be spunky, but I can’t stand them either! This topic is too close to home for me now! I’ve been shut up in a house with 2 preschoolers and a baby for 8 days now and have 9 more days to go. It’s endless fluids of some sort – bodily fluids, spilt fluids, smeared fluids, sticky fluids…all over me and everywhere. 😑

          4. Indy says:

            Oh My! I hope you have lots of wet wipes and Lysol!!

          5. Windstorm2 says:

            My daughter’s a real penny pincher. She guards the wet wipes like a hawk for only the most foul. We do have plenty of wash rags and dogs, though. Usually by the second week here I start singing the songs from Cinderella. 😄

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Your last sentence makes it sound youre in a bad porno. i think I can help here. When I had to look after the children and they wouldnt stay in bed I would look under the bed and fake discussion with something. and then look up and tell them that if they put their feet on the floor the witches would nibble their toes off. They only cried for a little while but they stayed safe in their bed. Theyre all grown now and no one ever asks me to babysit.

            Hey you do what you gotta do to survive.

  44. Virginia says:

    After reading HG’s article about different types of empaths
    It sounds like I am the “carrier empath” I believe that I am a mixed personality type ENTJ with a lot of empathetic traits..

    My personality in the ENTJ:


    Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.
    Steve Jobs

    1. SVR says:

      I only wanted to become FREE ❤❤❤

      1. lynnyrn says:


  45. ava101 says:

    when someone asks you what they are in a private consultation, would you also tell them when they are a narc?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      What do you think?

      1. Does a bear shit in the woods comes to mind…

      2. ava101 says:

        I don’t know!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ok. I wondered if you’d apply the information I’ve given so you could work it out

        2. Ava, I can say with absolute certainty that HG will tell you the truth be it good, bad or indifferent for you 😊

          1. HG Tudor says:


      3. ava101 says:

        I’m a bad student.
        I just imagine that it would be very strange for the unsuspecting recipient.

      4. Khaleesi says:

        I would say no, because it wouldn’t do any good. They won’t be able to see the truth. I’m guessing that you just won’t validate their belief that they’re a normal or empath.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      5. ava101 says:

        Okay. It’s just that you taught us that it is futile to tell a narc what he is.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      6. ava101 says:


  46. Anna Belle Black A says:

    Super Empath.
    Why? Because I have higher narcissistic tendencies but truly love and care for people. I’m resilient enough to take abuse, but will definitely check you if you continue to push. I don’t like to have to be mean, but if I deem it necessary then I will not hesitate to choke a bitch. I may feel some remorse but if you deserved it then….
    Do you agree HG?

  47. Yolo says:

    Who am I to say…some days i feel like an empath, the next narc.
    The licensed professionals say bpd/ bipolar. I am a guinea pig, he recently ordered thyroid screening. I asked why i am not over weight ” we just want to review before changing meds.” Lol. I know my current symptoms are those of a person with hypoactive thyroid.

    After reading, reading, and reading 30 traits of a empath i am sure i most of my traits are that of a empath. In H.G. (box) I am a super empath. 😇
    Past few days my behavior has been the latter. I told a senior she resembles Faye Dunaway in mpmmie dearest in a covert way. A observer called me mean but he was crazy. Empath or Narc😕

    1. Yolo says:

      Wait, i am nunja😉

  48. Nunja says:

    I really don’t know what I am, other than untrustworthy. I cannot trust myself to make good choices when it comes to a partner. I have mistaken selfishness for strength, manipulation for need and crassness for honesty. Or maybe that’s the excuse I tell myself to justify opening myself up to the excitement of a relationship that was doomed from the start. Excitement? Yep. I feel excitement at the prospect of being “the one”, the one who helps you out of your blue funk, the one who will earn that special place in your life as being unforgettable…. even if it doesn’t work out.

    I feel superior by being strong for others, the solid rock in a sea of chaos and confusion. All the while I will give and give and give and all the while my position in the relationship escalates. I will dote on them, spoil them with gifts and attention, give preference to their wants and needs, compliment them on their looks and tell them often about their place in my heart. This gives me a superior position in any argument and anything they say will be weighed against my account of how much I’ve done for them. During the argument, I will hear them, but it will mean very little to me because I have worked the hardest and they have not. My ex shouted at me during one of our arguments that I enjoyed making him twist and squirm with my comments and that he thought I “got off” on watching him struggle.

    This feeling of superiority clears my conscience when it’s time to split. In my mind, I did everything I could and I feel no guilt about cutting the other person out of that place in my life. We can be friends, in fact that friendship only proves how important I was….still can’t live without me. So I can go about my life without them knowing that at sometime they will be thinking of me and they will call. One time I was sent an email by a former and told that he hates me and I was a bitch….I chuckled, rolled my eyes and said to myself “whatever”.

    I think I am looking for my equal, someone who will give as much as I do, but I must be lying to myself because I never seem to pick that one. I gravitate toward the challenge and get back into the cycle. It angers me and I waffle between just being alone and craving connection. I like being alone, I like being able to do what I want, when I want, but I also like having someone around….but as I said, I can’t trust myself.

    This was the first time I’ve put that out there. I’ve felt all this and was well aware, even enjoyed it, but I never expressed it. Not sure which one makes it seem worse to me.

  49. L says:

    Hi HG. I consider myself a recovering codependent. I have removed some very heavy chains but there are some others I am still attached to.

    1. windstorm2 says:

      Sounds very upbeat to me, L. You’re making progress and looking realistically at where you are. Be proud of your progress! Just keep moving forward – one day at a time. ❤️

      1. L says:

        Thank you Windstorm2. ❤️

  50. amynm101010 says:

    MAGNET EMPATH (standard empath) for sure. I have had Codependency issues in the past that I have worked out, but I find Codependent just as depressing as Narcissist. Though I have Super Empath traits, I do not consider that my identity. When I read your work about Magnet Empaths, that is 100% me; the way strangers interact with me, how the Narc will turn my community against me, to how the narc hoovers. Such an eye opener for me. The reason so many people are selecting Super Empaths, because people are studying their Narcs, and not spending time studying themselves.

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