The Doormat

THE DOORMAT-2

 

The doormat. There it lies with a pleasant greeting of “welcome home” emblazoned upon it and all it gets is routinely overlooked and trampled on, but it never flinches, it never backs away from performing its function. Many of our victims find themselves regarded as doormats by our kind. Not only is this evidenced by the way that we regard you but it is also as a consequence of the way that we treat you. It is not those factors alone however that cause me to ascribe the label of Doormat to a particular appliance. Much of it comes from the thinking, attitude and mind set of the relevant victim. I have mentioned my sister, Rachael previously. Whereas I trod the path that has led me to where I am today, Rachael found herself becoming a doormat. She was routinely trampled on by all the members of our family and I watched and observed as we grew older as to how this manifested. As time progressed and with the increasing awareness that I have obtained, allied with the observations of the good doctors, I identified certain characteristics that she has which I have also seen in those who have been my primary source victims. I have concluded that whilst numerous of these victims have come close to being doormats, only three have actually achieved that status along with my sister.

Now, it is a mistake to think that a doormat would be regarded as weak. Naturally my kind think this but that is part of our mechanism for maintaining our superiority by pouring scorn on your traits and how they lead you to be treated. Those who are doormats exhibit a different kind of strength. They are weak in that they fail to assert themselves with sufficient emphasis to enable them to escape the worst of out treatment, but they possess a strength by virtue of those characteristics. To be able to have those characteristics and keep them, whilst being abused, ignored, trampled on and taken for granted, is perversely a form of strength and one which we welcome. We want appliances that will keep functioning, obeying us, pouring out the fuel and complying, without breaking down and malfunctioning the first time matters become rough. Finding a doormat amongst our victims is gratifying because it means that this person will not depart us, they have no desire to do so. It goes further however because they wish to stay not only for our reasons but for their own fulfilment as well. They pour fuel in our direction, remain subservient and compliant. What are the traits that constitute a doormat?

  1. The individual is sensitive and guilt-ridden.
  2. This person has learned to survive hostile environments by meeting our need for gratification. This first and foremost applies to the provision of fuel but it also goes further. The doormat will gratify us by allowing us to do what we want, recognises our need and right to do so, allows us to utilise whatever resources we see fit and caters for all of our needs in terms of fuel, trait provision and residual benefits.
  3. The doormat’s perception of love has become skewed. This person seeks love through the excessive accommodation of another’s needs. This may not just be us when we have attached them as a primary source to us, but in respect of other individuals. Those individuals may not be narcissistic but the doormat still wishes to accommodate the wishes of other people (something which of course irritates us and leads to conflict) because the doormat regards his or her role as one of accommodating everybody because then that means that they will be loved.
  4. The doormat simply gives too much. They do not take. They give of themselves on every level, from their emotions, their dedication, their time, their energy, their thoughts and their resources. They are impressively resourced in these matters and appear to have almost limitless time, energy etc. although eventually it becomes evident that they have not.
  5. The doormat does not feel safe unless he or she gives. If they perceive that they are taking they feel alarm and distress. If they are neither giving or taking they feel restless and out of their comfort zone. The need to provide and to give allows them to fulfil their role and in turns embodies a sense of safety for them. Once they begin to feel safe they will continue to give in order to remain in this safe place. This is why the doormat is drawn to our kind because we are takers and do so on a vast scale. We are made for the doormat and even though the doormat may not know what we are, their coupling with us, provides them with an innate sense of safety and security.
  6. The doormat must meet the emotional needs of the narcissist. We are empty. We are voids and your emotional attention, your fuel, needs to be poured into us. The doormat feels a need to ensure that those excessive emotional needs are met (although fails to realise that this can never be achieved) and therefore remains hooked and beholden to us in as the doormat tries to achieve the impossible. I have watched my sister continue to do this with Matrinarc.
  7. The doormat suffers low self-esteem but this is boosted by the success of the narcissist. My victims who were doormats found that their self-esteem was increased by my achievements and my accomplishments. I watched my sister gather her self-esteem from being linked to the achievements of MatriNarc, my father and me. This is a curious behaviour and is not unlike our stealing of traits from those around us in order to add them to our construct and in turn make us look better and more attractive. The doormat does not acquire the traits of our success but the fact we are successful and they are linked with us results in their self-esteem being increased.
  8. The doormat has a high tolerance to emotional abuse. The lashing out through heated fury and cold fury from our kind against the doormat causes the doormat to realise that the emotional need of our kind has increased. This signals to them that they must leap into action. They have a call of duty and rather than find the emotional abuse debilitating (at least at first) they regard it as a useful signal for them to do something in order to cater for it. However, all the doormat is doing is allowing a pressure to build up of this repeated emotional abuse. The doormat can tolerate it for longer than a standard victim but then there comes a point where the threshold is reached, the pressure can no longer be sustained and withheld and at that point there is a substantial and serious damaging effect on the doormat from the release of this pressure.
  9. The doormat feels guilt when catering for his or her needs and therefore almost in a masochistic way will place themselves in the firing line once again with our kind in order to assuage this guilt.
  10. The doormat feels undeserving of being loved. They want to be loved for what they do, rather than for what they are. They regard themselves of fundamentally unworthy of love save when they are carrying out their role. With my sister I saw this with both my father and mother. My father emphasised how it was important to help others and my sister saw that as a clear signal to flagellate herself in catering to the needs of others and especially our kind. My sister also explained to me that in respect of MatriNarc that she never says that she is happy but that my sister knew MatriNarc was happy with her because of how my sister felt, namely devoid of guilt and valued because of her excessive giving. I regarded her thinking as deluded but I did not correct it, because it served my purposes as well.

Listen to ‘The Doormat’

190 thoughts on “The Doormat

  1. SuperXena, Windstorm, and Noname,

    I’ve learned a lot from your conversation here about your interactions with your N partners and family members. It’s given me some things to think about, also.
    I’m grateful for your sharing.

    HG,

    Whatever the incident was when life handed you that big bag of lemons, you have made a wonderfully refreshing batch of lemonade, not just for yourself, but for many others.

    Thanks and Cheers

    Perse

    1. Nuit Étoilée says:

      I learned a lot from these comments, too.
      – a bit daunting how much work I feel I have ahead of me, but i do seem to love a challenge..

      HG – comté. 😉

      Thank you so much for sharing such thought-provoking and supportive experiences!

    2. SuperXena says:

      Hello Perse,
      Thank you for your kind comment. It really warms my heart.
      I am glad to hear that sharing my experiences here of the mad journey I had with my ex narc helps you in some way!

      Best wishes

  2. Lou says:

    Windstorm, how long have you been divorced? Who decided to get a divorce, you or your ex husband? If it was you, was there anything special that made you take the decision?
    I know these are very personal questions but you seem to be very open about it. I am interested to know, but will understand if you do not want to answer them.

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Hey Lou,

      I never mind answering questions – may be the teacher in me!
      The divorce was finalized 10 years ago last February. I left him and then I filed for divorce 2 years later.

      He is also an alcoholic and his alcoholism was at its worst then. He retaliated with much more abuse to me to bolster his ego (since he knew his problems and his lack of control wounded him considerably).

      I was a physical and emotional wreck. I had to get away from the toxic meltdown my home and marriage had become or I’d have ended up in a hospital somewhere. Within a few months of my leaving him, his boss gave him an ultimatum – go to treatment or find another job. He has been sober now for 12 years.

      It took a few years for him to work thru his “inner demons” and recover from the wounding from my leaving and divorcing him. He is much more introspective and mellow now and has much more cognitive empathy. Neither of us has been in another intimate relationship since and almost certainly never will be. We are close family members who enjoy each other’s company, but there is nothing sexual. That would be pointless for both of us.

      Does that answer your questions?

      1. Lou says:

        Yes, Windstorm, you did answer my question very well. Thanks a lot!

  3. Jenna,

    I like that you enjoy writing my user name.
    I earned it, believe me.
    I can’t know what HG thinks about you, but he didn’t block you. So you have not become Persona Non Grata here.
    About being silent here, this is a place to share. I think you felt that you were attacked. So you reacted.
    We are all emotional, or we wouldn’t be here. By design, the narcissist wants an emotional appliance. This is the commonality of each of us.
    If you are hurt in these conversations, I suggest either declaring that you are hurt, and why you are hurt, or ignoring the comment.
    I’ve been ignored here, and it didn’t hurt me. You aren’t hurting anyone doing that.
    As to my question, yes, I am curious, but you do not need to answer. I would prefer that my question does make you think about why you have not blocked him. If you have blocked him, I can cheer you on for that if you wish to reveal it.
    I would like to point out that HG has offered us the alternative of Logical Thinking. It is a hard program to fully install in us, but if you going to have the most useful narc trait, that is THE ONE!!!!
    As for the NC, I was not good at it. I didn’t have the information that is provided here. Any other advice I was given was wrong and/or useless.
    As a consequence, it was nature that freed me, not knowledge or my own efforts.I understand it’s tough.
    You didn’t offend me at all, and I agree that it’s hard to get used to not using the word “hope”. It’s even harder to discontinue using the emotion, “hope”, and that is more important.
    As for offending anyone, it doesn’t happen as much as you would think. Letting others know you worry about it makes you appear to be a people pleaser and a bit subservient. Forgive my bluntness here: “Stop It” *
    I hope that many years down the road does not find you as Jenna, Empress Of The Damned, but as Jenna, Happy Ruler Of Her Own World

    Perse

    * posted this link previously. $5 5min therapy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BjKS1-vjPs

    PS I write a lot more than you see, but I find myself editing, editing, than sometimes deleting. You are contributing more here than I do when you post comments. You might not even know that something you said helped somebody in some way. So use this resource to help you, too.

    1. Jenna says:

      Hi perse,

      Ty for ur detailed reply. I am curious to know what has earned u this username. I am sure, as i read more of ur posts, i will learn the reason.

      “If you are hurt in these conversations, I suggest either declaring that you are hurt, and why you are hurt, or ignoring the comment.”

      This is great advice! Ty. I had finally decided that i shud not be hurt at all. That i shud accept and expect judgements. I will still try to adhere to that, but this strategy will also be effective.

      U r right. I feel so worried abt hurting, offending or angering others (depending on the person) that i sometimes chk if hg posted my comment or not, and if it’s still in moderation after a few moderating sessions, i post again informing the reader that i have replied to him/her, but that the comment is in moderation.

      I am glad that u don’t feel hurt if u’ve been ignored here. I wud like to point out that sometimes, i stop receiving comments in my inbox for threads that i have subscribed to. It could very well be the same for the person who ignored u?

      I am sorry that u did not have the available resources regarding nc. I can definitely relate to ‘any other advice i was given was wrong and/or useless’. My experience was similar. Logical thinking is an excellent solution, but it is something i very much struggle with. My emotions have a strong grip on me. I am working on it.

      “It’s even harder to discontinue using the emotion, ‘hope’, and that is more important.”

      For me, i find it v easy to discontinue this emotion. I am not a hopeful person in general. I give up after some time, and resort to hopelessness. I withdraw. I become sad, depressed. I do not hope. I hate hope. I despise hope!

      I find it more difficult to stop using the word hope tho, simply due to linguistics.

      Oh my, perse, how did u figure it out so easily? U have not known me for that long. U r indeed v perceptive. I am exactly that – a pple pleaser and slightly subservient. I dislike offending pple. I do not pple please just to be liked, as someone suggested. If i genuinely feel something, then only i say it. Otherwise, i do not. I am v sincere in what i say. There are pple here thinking i am a narc, and that i feel entitlement becoz i go on and on. It really got me thinking. Why do i do this? Am i a narc?

      I don’t mind ur bluntness. In this case, i appreciate it. As u suggest, i will try to stop. I have improved since joining the blog, i think.

      Perse, why edit ur comments? Actually i tend to do this too. Sometimes, i do it excessively, so to avoid it, i tap ‘send’ fast, b4 i have time to edit. Why don’t u try this?

      “You might not even know that something you said helped somebody in some way… ”
      I thought i was helping, when i offer high emotional thinkers who can relate to me, with examples of my own advancements in logical thinking. But i was accused of something else by a reader. It did hurt me. But i won’t allow it to hurt any longer. I have changed my mind set.

      $5/5 min therapy u say?
      = $60/hr.
      Damn girl, u cheap!
      I have paid $165 for 45 min sessions. It was useless.

      See u around perse, queen of hell! 😈

      1. analise13 says:

        Hi Jenna.

        I just wanted to say,

        I am not sure you saw the comment where I asked HG about the perimeters that define No Contact.

        Also where he explained them.

        The fact that you are opening and reading and then sharing your exes texts, in itself breaks no contact.

        You are perpetuating ever presence.

        To successfully pursue no contact you need to block his texts.

        If you cannot do that, then make it so you cannot see or read them.

        I am not being judgemental.

        Just trying to help you feel better in your situation and anxiety.

        HG said even seeing an ex by chance when out breaks No Contact.

        Do you want to end any form of relationship with your ex?

        Either way, just do what is right for you and your emotional well being.

        Do you feel you benefit in any way from maintaining contact?

        Be yourself.
        Accept yourself.
        Understanding who that is.
        Why you are here.

        Not everyone can release easily and go No Contact.
        It depends on relationship you had.
        Your own personality and needs.
        Everyone is different.

        Some binding is just too tightly wound.
        Forgive yourself and go from there.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Correct and saved me having to write it, thanks Analise.

        2. Jenna says:

          Hi analise,

          Ty for ur thoughtful comment. I know u usually stay out of discussions, but i feel touched that u chose to comment on my case.

          U r absolutely correct in everything u write.

          I cannot answer ur question tho, becoz it will bring many, many questions my way, and i wud like to spare hg the headache of moderating them!

          I hope u continue to comment tho 😊

          1. analise13 says:

            Hi Jenna

            I hope all is well with you.
            Do not worry about people asking questions.
            You always have the right to decline answer.
            Which should always be respected.

          2. Jenna says:

            Hi analise,

            Ty. Great to see u back after some time. I’ve missed ur thought provoking comments.

          3. analise13 says:

            Hi Jenna
            I keep popping in to see if HG has new polls, meme series or blog articles. I am not commenting as much.

    2. Jenna says:

      Perse, queen of hell fire,

      In my email, the link did not show up. Thus, I thought u were joking w me and charging me $5/5 min!

      I just saw the link becoz i visited this page. I watched it. Very funny! 2 words – ‘stop it!’ Hehe!!!! Ty.

      Since this incident, i’ve been trying to stop it, and behave a little more boldly. I have to admit, it’s not coming so easily to me. I will still continue to try. Let’s see how i do!

      1. Jenna,
        Glad you liked it. The habit I have been using it for is inappropriate apologizing. I caught myself apologizing to the dog because I couldn’t take him in the car. LOL! “Stop it”. At least I can laugh as I’m being imperfect.
        And it takes a while for a new behavior to become a habit. Just keep practicing. I’m still practicing,too, but I’ll get there. I have no doubt that you can get there, too.
        Perse.

        PS I like what you did with my name! I think I’ll just add the fire to it,too.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Perse
          I’m often apologizing to dogs! I apologize to all animals, insects, trees, plants – at least they are living things. This morning I caught myself apologizing to the coffee pot for expecting it to have coffee when I had not yet filled it. Now THAT’S an inappropriate apology! 😄

          1. Jenna says:

            Windstorm,

            Lol! Stop it! Alologizing to trees, coffee pots?
            I sometimes alologize to insects.
            But i don’t apologize to trees and plants! Actually, it’s becoz i have not interacted with trees and plants. I just look at them🙃

        2. Jenna says:

          Careful perse, pple will think u r a narc if u add it! 😉

          Apologizing to the dog? Haha! ‘Stop it!’
          Serious empath alert!

  4. Jenna,
    no reply is good, but why can’t you block him?
    Perse

    1. Jenna says:

      Hi perse, queen of hell,

      I enjoyed writing ur user name!

      Normally, i answer all questions (and criticisms) in great detail, with all supporting facts.

      But i am learning that sometimes it is better to remain silent. Thus, i will refrain frm answering ur question for now.

      It is a little unsettling for me not to answer u, but it is necessary becoz it will bring many more questions directed my way, and i wud like to avoid that for now.

      Hg has about had it with me! Thx for understanding. 😊

      I hope i did not offend u.
      (Damn, there’s that word ‘hope’ again! How else can i word this last sentence?
      ‘It is not my intent to offend u.’ Hmmm, the latter version sounds a little haughty, no? As though u are dying to know the answer or something? I am not so comfortable with the latter version. Any suggestions of rephrasing are welcome).

  5. jenna says:

    Fyi,

    Hoover #5, day 6 nc:

    Mon Nov 27, 9:44pm

    Him:
    (*inspirational quote*)
    It just occurred to me that many people are actually afraid to heal because their entire identity is centered around the trauma they’ve experienced. They have no idea who they are outside of trauma and that unknown can be terrifying.

    Me: no reply

    1. Kimi says:

      Wow Jenna!

      He is self-aware at some level, although he doesn’t take ownership of his statement (doesn’t refer to himself).

      I didn’t realize you had actually gone No Contact! And almost a week! Congratulations!

      I’m at about 15 hours No Contact and am already feeling weak…

      1. Caroline says:

        Kimi,
        Keep at it. It gets easier and easier in time, really. Focus on how proud you are of your strength, which will only increase the longer you don’t cave. Your emotions will go up and down for a time (expect this), but they will level out too. It really is like kicking a horrible addiction. You want to be “clean,” and you are doing what it takes! Go you.

      2. Jenna says:

        Hi kimi,

        Ty. Yes, i have made it thru one wk nc.
        This inspirational quote is not abt him, it’s for me. He doesn’t want me to love him anymore, or else he feels like he is not free. He wants me to heal frm the trauma so that he can be free like a bird! He encourages me often to stop thinking abt our time together, even tho i was the one who escaped last yr. and he hoovered in a frenzied manner to get me back (as a friend). Oh, the subtle contradiction!

        It will get easier for u kimi. I pray that it does. If u feel like contacting him, i encourage u to post here instead. I do that often. It works well, when hg is not out of town. When hg is out of town, i had relapsed. It takes great strength to keep frm relapsing but i am sure u can do it! I am sending u an encouraging hug. Pls embrace it with open arms. 🌺

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Jenna
          Your description of your narc made me laugh! Have you ever noticed how narc guys tend to love that old song “Free Bird?” To me that is such a narcissistic song!

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi windstorm,

            “Have you ever noticed how narc guys… ”

            Eeek, i only know one narc guy! 😅
            Well, maybe 3, if my dad and uncle are narc guys too. I need to run!!

            I have not heard this song, but it makes sense that they wud like it. Did ur ex like this song?

          2. Windstorm2 says:

            Jenna
            That just cracked me up! I guess I just assume everyone knows a lot of narcs. 😄

            No, my exhusband makes fun of the narcs that like that song. I’d say they tend to be midrangers or lessers. Sometimes he uses it in a joke like, “Yeah, that guy’s favorite song is probably Free Bird.”
            You should read the lyrics. It’s very fitting for how many narcs feel about relationships.

          3. “…And this bird you can not chaaaaaange…”

          4. Jenna says:

            Windstorm,

            Haha!! I enjoyed the comment frm ur ex!

            I read another post where u talk abt ur 2 narc sons. Somebody questioned that by commenting, “2 narc sons… ”
            😂

            I also know u use the term ‘family narcs’ which also may alarm pple who do not know u. Well, ya, some pple have alot of family narcs! U gotta deal w it! 😂

          5. Windstorm2 says:

            Jenna
            Yeah. It’s hard to understand other people’s reality and that it may not match your own. I’m very proud of all my sons. Raising them was very difficult, but I had the invaluable help of both my narc and empath inlaws. Being around them for very long now can be stressful, but they are both good men.

            I know many may not believe this at this point in their healing, but all narcs are not evil, terrible people. They are not all psychopaths. They have not all been abused as children. If you recognize them as small children you can train them to have cognitive empathy and that they don’t have the right to abuse other people. They will never have all the emotions and they will do a lot of hurtful things in ignorance (since they have no empathy) and sometimes on purpose. But they can grow into decent people, even decent husbands and fathers.

          6. Jenna says:

            Hi windstorm,

            I am sure u r proud of ur sons and they are good men. After all, they have u as a mother!

            Ur fil sounds v wise. Whenever u talk abt him, he seems to always have some valuable advice to give. U also mentioned b4, that ur son is making efforts to be a good dad to his child. It’s v nice to hear!

          7. Windstorm2 says:

            Jenna
            Thanks. Yes, my oldest has two little girls and is a very hands on father and trying to be a good husband. My youngest has split from the mother of his son, so that’s a much more difficult situation. He does stay involved in his son’s life. Right now he’s coaching his basketball team. I’m very fortunate to get on very well with the mother of my grandsons, so even though she and my youngest son are very antagonistic, I still do things with her and the boys. (I consider her son from a previous relationship my grandson also and she will always be my daughter in law.)

            My concept of family is very fluid. My youngest son is actually informally adopted. He is actually the 12th of 13 children and his birth parents just didn’t care anymore. He left home on his own at age 11 and bounced from one friend’s house to another until he crash landed with us and I declared him part of our family. I don’t know if you are familiar with the Bible parable about the treasure in the field? It is about a man walking across a field and finds a hidden treasure. The guy who owned the field had no idea the treasure was there, so the man scrounged up enough money, bought the field, then dug up the treasure and enjoyed it the rest of his life. I’ve always thought of my youngest son as my “treasure in the field.”

          8. jenna says:

            Hi Windstorm,

            This is v touching to read. It fills my heart w warmth. Ur youngest is indeed ur ‘treasure in the field’. I am sure being in the family is a treasure for him as well. I am sorry that his birth parents didn’t care for him. It is sad to read. But he found a v nice family to grow up with. And i am sure u enjoyed his presence as well. I hope he is able to find peace with a lovely partner some day. It is nice that u spend time w ur dil and grandsons, even tho they are not together. That says alot abt u.

            Ur older son seems to be doing very well. It is nice that he is a hands on dad and trying to b a good husband. I read that b4 sometime, and it made me v happy. Ur 2 grand daughters must b a joy! I bet family reunions r v fun!

            I wish peace, happiness, health, and success for u, ur kids, ur grandkids, and all of ur family always. 💗

            P.s. i wish i cud come over during a family reunion!

          9. Windstorm2 says:

            Thank you, Jenna. That was very kind. Our family is rather unconventional, but we all do benefit. If you came to any family get together would be an eye-opening experience! Especially an extended family reunion! Never a moment of quiet and always entertaining!

          10. Jenna says:

            Yw windstorm.

      3. Kimi says:

        Thank you Caroline for your kind words and encouragement! I do need them!

        I’m actually 15 years No Contact with my Nex-husband (16 years). That relationship gutted me and I recovered by instinct alone.

        This relationship wounded me, but also encouraged me to discover and learn about Narcism. I consider it a blessing in disguise! Although the initial NC is beyond difficult!

    2. Caroline says:

      What an ironic message, coming from a narcissist. Good for you on the NO REPLY, Jenna. 🙂

      1. Jenna says:

        Thx caroline.

    3. SuperXena says:

      Oh Jenna,
      With all due respect:

      No contact it is not a matter of hours or days.
      No contact is a matter of weeks, that turn into months,years.
      No contact is a matter of stop thinking ,writing and talking about him.
      No contact is a matter of deleting him from your thoughts, your mind ,your phone, your social media
      No contact is about what you do, not what he does.
      No contact is stop thinking of all the ifs.
      No contact is a matter of self control not being driven by your emotions.
      No contact is about a strict regimen of action..not hoping
      No contact is a matter of willing to do it.
      No contact is a matter of strong will
      No contact is a matter of winning your power back.

      1. SuperXena says:

        Adding one more:
        No contact is being able to say:NO

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi sx,

          U r right. Ty.

      2. Windstorm2 says:

        Superxena
        Very true. You have to get them out of your thoughts or you’re still having a mental contact with them.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello Windstorm,

          Thank you for your comment and good to hear from you.I read somewhere here that you were celebrating Thanksgiving. I believe it is a big celebration there.Could you celebrate together with your family and grandchildren?

          The achievement of No Contact is hard. It goes through stages but it is important wanting to do it. Otherwise one gets stuck with the risk of staying there: stagnated.

          My breakthrough came actually when finding this site.
          The input given here made me realise that No Contact was a mental process and not an emotional one. It made me realise that I had to ” rationalise” my feelings and not trying to “delete” them. An impossible task ( to delete feelings) for us non-narcissist. We will always have the ability of feeling real love, happiness, joy etc and that I am thankful for.

          When I came here, I was drowning in the emotional sea. Knowing that and learning made possible for me to disentangle all the feelings detecting each feeling one by one as I went by. The hardest feeling for me to rationalise was fear.

          I found my own mantras for each feeling in order to kind of block it and rationalise it. Besides my own mantras, one specific article helped me a lot : ” I want” https://narcsite.com/2017/11/03/i-want-6/
          Powerful reminder for me of what it was.

          The feelings with time turned to be thoughts and finally memories with no emotions attached.
          The first step though is to have the firm determination of doing it.

          Sometimes I wonder which is worse: staying because of ignorance( I mean by ignorance not having the knowledge of what it was: an abusive relationship)
          or staying in an abusive relationship knowing what it is.
          Once you know it, it is like inexcusable to stay..most of all for self-respect.
          Best wishes

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            Superxena
            Always good to hear from you too! I have never actually gone no contact with one of my narcs, in that I refuse to talk to them if they contact me. I just go no contact in my mind, in that I do not even think about them. Fortunately i have never been in a relationship with a violent narc or one who I can’t make back off and leave me alone. I have learned, however, to sever emotional attachments to them so I am no longer abused. This of course means putting them out of my mind and moving on with my life. Also I have no trouble walking away from them when I need space and only interacting with them when I choose. They have all accepted this by deciding that I am defective in some way (i.e. crazy) and i am fine with that. In my opinion we are all defective in some way, certainly they are as well. 😄

            Yes, Thanksgiving is a very major holiday here. Dinners often take place over several days as you might have a big one, then still go to your mothers, and maybe even a grandmother’s dinner as well. I had not planned to invite anyone to my little meal on Thanksgiving Day, but my exhusband invited himself. Thanksgiving has always been his very favorite holiday, so I had mercy on him and fixed a meal for him at my house. Usually his family has a big extended family dinner, but he had a brother in the hospital with brain cancer and they felt they could not celebrate this year.

            I convinced him to buy everything for our immediate family to have a dinner Friday and it went very well. All three of our sons were there and two granddaughters. It is stressful, but I am able to tolerate the family narcs together like that for a few hours and we all had a good time. It was just three narcs – my exhusband and 2 sons. It is a lot more challenging when the extended family gets together because then there are many more of them, but I actually enjoy getting to see people a couple times a year. Usually I sit in the corner and just watch them all interacting, grandstanding and talking – sort of like watching a play. Lol!

            I hope all is well with you.

          2. SuperXena says:

            Windstorm!
            It is always good to hear from you. Your Thanksgiving celebration seemed to be a good family reunion( well as good as can be with “only”??? three narcs).

            I am fine thank you. Just recharging energy this afternoon. Too much happening around me lately.

            I must confess that your case really puzzles me every time I read your story. It makes me introspective. Trying to find a way to understand your interaction with your ex. The only explanation I could find that eases my mind is that as they say: “There is always an exception to the rule”. Your case must be the one and only exception.

            Trying to find answers about myself, I would like to ask you some personal questions .I understand if you do not want to answer them.

            1. Have you ever had a relationship( I mean intimate partner) with a non-narcisssist? As I recall you said that you two met when you were 14 years old?
            2. Do you come from a narcissist family environment(parents)?

            The reason I ask you is because I am trying to find answers about my own life story .
            I do not come from a narcissist environment ( my parents were not) and before getting entangled with my ex narcissist I was married to a non-narcissist for many years( father of my two children) with whom I still have a very good relationship him being very supportive.

            I call my entanglement with my ex narc ( I met him 2 years after my divorce ) a bad call. I do not find any other “reasonable”explanation.
            ( besides of course being and empath ….or am I not?) So I had actually another frame of reference to compare with. That was perhaps the reason I could escape him.

            My question is:
            Do you think that being born within a narcissist family environment and having romantic relationships just with narcissists make your frame of reference different ? That is to say your frame of reference of the interaction empath v.s. narcissist is the only one you know not being able to compare it with a non-narcissist v.s non-narcissist interaction?
            My English doesn’t really make sense today…difficult to express what I mean…
            Best wishes

          3. Jenna says:

            Hi sx, noname, and windstorm,

            Sx:”The only explanation I could find that eases my mind is that as they say: ‘There is always an exception to the rule’. Your case must be the one and only exception.”

            There is another exception here on the blog. It is noname’s current husband, who is a greater. He wants to change and approached her for help. She handles him v well. She says the willingness to change must come frm the narc, not the victim. I think her case is v exceptional too. I can clearly see she has much patience and empathy and is obviously handling him well. I admire her. She clearly states to not use her example tho, becoz it will give false hope to others.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Emmental.

          5. Windstorm2 says:

            Superxena
            I do not at all feel that I am an exception, because I personally know other women like myself. I do realize I am often an exception here on the blog. That’s understandable because if I hadn’t gotten involved with my Moron in Munich, I’d have never been here in the first place. I have no real problems with my narc family that I can not deal with on my own.

            In my culture here it is often an advantage to be a narcissist. I don’t think the ones around here try to hide what they are and trick women, like seems so prevalent with other commenters experiences. I guess that makes sense, if it’s an advantage to have a narc as your husband, why would Narc men pretend to be something else? While I do know women who were tricked by romance into a narc relationship, I always thought those narcs were just more stupid to need trickery (they did tend to be lessers).

            Yes, I believe you’re right about environment and home life being the key. Both my parents were narcs, many in my family were narcs. The few friends I had growing up all had at least one narc parent and were often narcs themselves. Narc was normal. It was expected and we knew we had to be tough and not expect romance or sweetness and kindness, because that wouldn’t happen. I was actually looking for a cerebral narc for a husband. I was 16 when I met my future husband and became engaged. I have never had a sexual relationship with anyone else. So I have no idea how it could be different.

            There was no trickery, no deceit. He was what I wanted, although I didn’t realize he could not actually love me at the time. I did want to be loved. But he is still here after 44 years, talking to me every day, helping me when I ask him, spending time with me – even though I divorced him and moved to another county. It’s not love, but it’s a lot better than nothing.

            I have no idea what advantages there would be to having a husband who wasn’t a narc, since I have no experience with that. I do have some non-narc men friends. I could never stand to be married and have to live with them. They are too wimpy, too uncertain. They get bogged down in emotional problems and don’t know what to do. They worry a lot. A man like that would be like a weight around my neck pulling me down.

            To me a man should be strong, courageous, confident and fierce. He should know what he wants and do what is necessary to attain it. He needs to be coldly logical and very intelligent. He shouldn’t get mired down in emotions and worry when action is needed. Narcs can be all of these things.

            I do believe a man must be trustworthy and dependable also, but narcs can be this, if you thoroughly understand them and their limitations and if they are highly intelligent and have a vested interest in a committed relationship with you. You just can’t expect things from them that they can not do. As my mother used to say, “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.” No, but you can make a usable leather one.

            My exhusband certainly has his share of faults and I would not want to ever live with him, again. But he has a lot of great qualities also. I can honestly say I have never met a man I would rather have chosen instead of him. Obviously my expectations are based on my culture and past experiences, but that doesn’t make them wrong – just different. I guess it depends on what we need and expect from a relationship.

            I never mind answering your questions. Hope this has made some sense to you.

          6. SuperXena says:

            Hello Windstorm,
            Thank you for your answer.
            Indeed our perspectives differ a lot. I find interesting to know your perspective and I respect it. I agree with you that our perspectives are formed by our background. Me not coming from a narcissist family and having had a non-narcissist husband for many years and a 6 years relationship with a narc as an IPPS( with a Greater) gives me another different frame of reference. I totally agree with you: I do not use the word normal but different.
            Quoting some of your very interesting statements and comparing them with my own experiences:
            1. ” To me a man should be strong, courageous, confident and fierce. He should know what he wants and do what is necessary to attain it. He needs to be coldly logical and very intelligent. He shouldn’t get mired down in emotions and worry when action is needed. ”

            A non-narcissist man can have all the qualities you mentioned: strong,courageous,condifent ,intelligent and fierce.Those qualities are not exclusive of a narcissist.

            Being the main difference that actually a non-narcissist has the ability of loving. This is really crucial when it comes to being trustworthy. The narcissist’s selfishness makes their needs come first. They can be trustworthy just when it serves their aims. So you can’t never know if/when you can count on them. The relationship with a narc is always unilateral.
            A relationship with a non-narcissist man (empath with some narcissistic traits) will perhaps cover all this.

            2.”….talking to me every day, helping me when I ask him, spending time with me”. For me this is not a loving, sharing ,nourishing relationship. But as you say: if it covers as well your needs it is your decision and it is your decision. If he does not abuse you or he crosses your personal boundaries.

            3. ” I have no idea what advantages there would be to having a husband who wasn’t a narc, since I have no experience with that”

            The main advantage /difference is that since there is real love ( in the interaction with the non-narcissist ) the relationship has less risk of becoming “stale” . The probability of the relationship with a narcissist of it becoming stale is higher . Since the relationship with a narcissist is unilateral in regard love, it stagnates at the end.

            This is the reason why (I think) why the narcissist feels the fuel “stales”. What I mean is that since they fake love…with time the feelings for them stagnate…there is no a real interaction at the emotional level so the “real “feelings of love from the person they entangle with just die. I say “real” because I am really questioning if what I felt was real love for my ex narc or if it was just an addiction. There were not the same feelings I had for my ex non-narcissist husband. They were at a completely different level.

            4. “There was no trickery, no deceit”.
            I do not have any experience about this so I can’t tell the difference .

            My ex narc was never open about his NPD although he gave me some hints about it.

            I hope ( that word again!) or should I say I wish this makes sense to you.
            It is always very insightful to exchange ideas and different perspectives with you.

            Best wishes

          7. Windstorm2 says:

            Superxena
            I agree with your analysis. Perhaps my relationship with my exhusband is a little different from your narc experience also because he never pretended to love me. There was no love to go stale. Never any emotional support. His objectives, though, were basically the same as mine – home, children, companion, so I could depend on him for those things.

            One thing I would point out, while a non-narc can love us and support us emotionally, that doesn’t mean that he will. I’ve seen a lot of unhappy marriages that do not contain a narc. Many of the commenters here on the blog had a past or even ongoing non-narc relationship that was/is disappointing.

            Hope you have a good weekend!

          8. SuperXena says:

            Oh yes, I am perfectly aware of it.
            That is why I am very careful on stating that the probability of succeeding in a relationship with a non-narcissist is higher, not always successful. Since the ability of loving is there. That is an important premise to begin with. Hence the relationship with a narcissist has as a higher risk of failing just because of the lack of this ability.
            Unless you want a relationship seen as a project based on different premises ( not love) according to your needs under common agreement. It sounds more to me like an agreement instead of a relationship understood in its usual way.
            But then again I can’t speak about it since I have not had that experience .
            Thank you Windstorm .It seems it will be a “white” weekend for me with snow.I am enjoying snow on this side of the world now!
            Best wishes

            Sent from my iPad

          9. SuperXena says:

            …Forgot to say: have a good weekend you too Windstorm!

      3. Noname says:

        You are very right, Superxena!

        “No contact is a matter of deleting him from your thoughts, your mind…”.

        This! The alfa and omega of the whole process. If you “killed” a Narc inside of you, nothing else matters.

        I have a contact with my Patrinarc and first husband and it doesn’t affect me in any form. They both don’t “live” inside of me and I don’t think about them and their lives at all. They don’t “exist” to me.

        Once, my Patrinarc said to me “I don’t want to see you at my deathbed. I’m afraid to see your eyes and see in them, that I mean nothing to you”.
        I said “It is a right move, papa. I won’t be able to hide the indifference. Choose someone, who really loves you or, at least, who knows how to fake it”.
        “I always wanted YOU loving me”.
        “Sh*t happens, papa”.
        “Life is a sh*t”.
        “You know better”.
        “Probably, I’ll change my opinion and ask you to be with me at my deathbed”.
        “I’ll be there, if you want”.
        “I’m afraid of it”.
        “I know”.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello Noname!

          Thank you for your comment. I really appreciate it.
          I like what you wrote: ” This! The alfa and omega of the whole process. If you “killed” a Narc inside of you, nothing else matters.”

          Your empty contact with your Patrinarc is really highly admirable. To reach that point of “deleteness” that even when he is physically present , he does not exist for you. That IS strong !

          That is certainly THE major wound for a narcissist: not receiving any emotional reaction.Total indifference.He is non existing.

          One of your statements caught my attention when you described what he said about him not wanting you to be at his deathbed:
          ” I don’t want to see you at my deathbed. I’m afraid to see your eyes and see in them, that I mean nothing to you”.
          “I always wanted YOU loving me”

          Do you think he wants YOU to love him because you are his daughter?
          Or is it because a narcissist feels wounded not to be able to awaken the feelings of love in general? Independently of who the person is? If they can’t be loved by someone does it wound their superiority?

          Very strong words in this dialogue with your father. How does it make you feel?

      4. Noname says:

        “Do you think he wants YOU to love him because you are his daughter?”

        Who knows, SuperXena. I’ve never tryed to “feel” or decipher his words. Whatever he meant, it doesn’t matter to me anymore. He had my childish love once – pure and genuine – and then he lost it.

        “Very strong words in this dialogue with your father. How does it make you feel?”.

        When I finished that phone conversation with him, my husband asked me “Something important?”.
        I said “Nothing”.

        So, that’s my answer – I felt nothing.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello Noname,
          Thank you for sharing. I understand what you mean. It is tragic either way you look at it. There comes a point when one has had enough and you do not even care of what they think or do. Whatever feelings one has had for them once just vanish.I wonder if you have had feelings for real love once but perhaps you do not care any more about thinking of that and I respect it.
          Best wishes

      5. Noname says:

        Do you mean, if I really loved a man in my life, SuperXena? No. I don’t have enough level of trust for that.

        Albeit I love. My son. Unconditionally. With all my being. With all I have. Wonderful. 😊

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello Noname,
          Well my concept of love has changed somehow with time and after my relationship with my ex narc. Love sounds to romantic now for me. I mean more the feelings of caring for ,respecting and trusting a man unconditionally.
          I completely agree with you: these feelings are unconditional for my two sons as well.

      6. ava101 says:

        You are so right, Windstorm, a relationship doesn’t need to contain a narc to be without love and emotional support. I have been hurt a lot by people who were supposedly able to give that.
        I do understand your perspective.
        I might even prefer a narc if there wasn’t the abusive downside inevitably coming with it.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello ava101,
          I understand what you mean.
          Narcs,non-narcs,empaths, normals are just a label.What about just a man without abusive behaviours or manipulations to begin with?

        2. Jenna says:

          I agree w windstorm.

          My nex is way nicer to me than many non narc normals in my life. It wud b great to be surrounded by empaths all the time, but it is not a statistical reality.

      7. Noname says:

        Ah, I see SuperXena.

        The caring, respect and trust are the basis of my marriage and all of them are conditional. They all are earned, not given. And it is pretty easy to lose them, because I have zero tolerance to betrayal and abuse.

        The “romantic love” is not my “thing” for sure. Lol. I’ve never been sensitive to any “romantic gestures”. Words, flowers, small gifts, love serenades, etc. I don’t need any of it. If someone really loves me, no need even to tell me that. I would “see” and “sense” it.

        1. Jenna says:

          Noname,

          I have come to know u over time. I have learned that u know exactly what u r getting into, u know exactly what u want, and u know how to handle it. I enjoy reading ur perceptive posts. 💗

        2. SuperXena says:

          Yes Noname: caring, respect and trust. Key factors for me as well. Specially respect.
          Not much for the “romantic” type love either. The interaction is more at a deeper level for me.

          Now that you mentioned : zero tolerance.

          That is what my ex narc used to say about me…and it is absolutely true..with time that zero tolerance turned to be zero impact for me ( I believe that will be the title of a coming book).. if you understand what I mean…

          Sent from my iPad

  6. jenna says:

    Tz,

    Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. These are the 5 stages of grief, outlined by psychiatrist and psychoanalyist elisabeth kubler-ross. Her model was ground-breaking in the field. I have read her book.

    Shock, seeking answers, isolation, forgiveness are also stages that psychologists have added to the mix, and extended her model to – grief following a relationship loss as well.

    The stages do not have to proceed in order, some can be skipped, some can be revisited.

    You seem to be in the anger stage.
    It is clear frm ur posts.

    I have read ur reply in ‘love-sex addiction’ of ‘muah hahaha’ to a very hateful comment abt the narc (posted below).

    Pls do recognize that while u r at this stage, many have surpassed this stage, some have not reached it, and some will skip it entirely.

    It does not give u authority to pass judgement on ANYONE in another stage of healing.

    I have surpassed the anger stage one year ago, thx to hg. Without him, i may not have.

    Keep reading and learning.

    Comment frm bibi:
    “If I wanted to fuck garbage, I would drive to my nearest landfill and strip down, only to then roll around while the gulls sift the moldy pasta out from my twaddle.
    This might actually carry less disease.”

    Tappan zee’s reply:
    “muahahahaha @bibi ”

    Moving fwd, i request u to pls refrain frm passing judgement on those who are in a different stage of healing than you are.

    If u cannot handle reading posts frm those at a more peaceful stage than u, skip them without comment.

    Stick with bibi and others who are in the extremely emotionally charged state of anger and hate.

    I myself, am thankful that i am no longer angry.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      “Moving fwd, i request u to pls refrain frm passing judgement on those who are in a different stage of healing than you are.” – but you are doing exactly the same.

      “It does not give u authority to pass judgement on ANYONE in another stage of healing.” – so where does your authority come from?

      “I have read ur reply in ‘love-sex addiction’ of ‘muah hahaha’ to a very hateful comment abt the narc (posted below).” – Bibi expressed her anger through a humorous comment. TZ responded with laughter which strikes me as being supportive as she laughed at the joke. Seems to me that your evangelical obsession is blinding you.

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi hg,

        I will paste my above statement here, in a different order, and i have added to it.

        My stance is simply this: Judgement should be avoided. This stance requires a statement to express it. I do not feel that such a statement is judgemental in itself. If some pple think it is, then that is their opinion. My opinion differs.

        Diplomatic ‘judgement’ based on full knowledge of ALL facts and correct definitions is warranted. Judging based on lack of facts (person’s history, stage of healing, her childhood abuse, anxiety symptoms, state of health, sexual frequency or lack of, knowledge of her tolerance level, eg. he was not sharing much so i voiced it, that’s all the ‘abuse’ i could tolerate b4 voicing my concerns), is not warranted.

        I would like to give another example. I’ve seen pple here accuse u of ’emotional rape’. This is not warranted because of the reasons explained above. Without knowing ur full history etc they do not have authority to pass such a harsh judgement. The term ’emotional abuse’ is fitting in ur case. The implication of ‘rape’ is significant, and needs be avoided, just as the implication of other words needs to be avoided.

        Regarding bibi’s joke, the disgust element resonated with TZ, thus she laughed. I did not find that joke funny personally. Last yr when i was angry, i might have. Depending on which emotions dominate us, certain jokes will resonate with us, certain jokes will not. Also, TZ did not reply with ‘hahahaha’ which would indicate finding it funny. TZ replied with ‘muahahahaha’ indicating a vindictive laughter.

        “muah ha ha
        AN EVIL, EVIL, REALLY EVIL LAUGH….muah ha ha ha ha

        i kicked your dog…muah ha ha…”
        (https://www.urbandictionary.com/)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. You have repeatedly (some may say excessively) made points about what TZ wrote.
          2. You write against judging people, yet in the same post you do exactly that.
          3. When this is pointed out to you, rather than note it and realise it, you launch into a further defence wherein you try to defend your own stance (thus missing the point).
          4. In doing (3) you actually repeat your hypocrisy. You seek to differentiate by referring to diplomatic judgement being based on knowledge of all facts etc but you do not know all of the facts yourself. Accordingly, your attempt to differentiate is not only flawed but you are damning others for the very thing you are doing yourself.

          With regard to the joke
          1. You did not find it funny. Fair enough. However, that was not the issue.
          2. Writing mua ha ha does indicate a pantomine Dr Evil laugh – is that not humour also?
          3. Might it not have been the case that TZ using this vindictive laughter was siding with Bibi as in “You want to do something which denotes the despicable behaviour of the narcissist, i.e. give some evil back, good for you.” I certainly did not read it as TZ mocking what Bibi wrote and I would be highly surprised if anybody else viewed it that way. What you did was cause your established prejudice against TZ colour the way you regarded her comment. Sound familiar?

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi hg,

            1.I feel a need to voice myself against every single comment TZ made about me, esp if it is incorrect. I do not feel at ease until i clarify myself. I do the same with ex narc. Thus, he becomes v frustrated with me. I recognize this behavior.

            2.I have judged her here when i repeated her words back to her. I did it to make a point. I indicated that it was to make a point.

            3 and 4. I did make a judgemental comment towards her as a reaction to her 19 judgental comments towards me: “I suggest u let go of ur rage and anger too. It is very freeing.”
            Yes, this comment was judgemental. I shud not have made it. I normally wud never make such a comment. Perhaps i was angry that she is directing her anger at me, post after post, comment after comment, sarcasm, accusations, insinuations. I do not appreciate it. I prefer if pple channel the anger towards something other than pple here, who may already be hurting.
            I will thus retract my statement of “I suggest u let go of ur rage and anger too. It is very freeing.”

            Regarding the joke,

            I did not think TZ was mocking bibi.
            I am in agreement with u that she was “siding with Bibi as in ‘You want to do something which denotes the despicable behaviour of the narcissist, i.e. give some evil back, good for you.'”

            Ty hg.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            1. You have done so repeatedly concerning the same point (the not sane point).

            2. So you admit you judged her. Note how you admit you judged her but you fail to see the hypocrisy in doing so and that you believe you are justified in your judgment, thus not accepting culpability.

            3+4 – you admit you judged her, state you would not do so ordinarily and state it was based on your anger. Noted.

            Re the joke – so you agree with what I have stated, therefore does this not mean that you therefore accept your comment was incorrect?

          3. Jenna says:

            Hi hg,

            Yes i judged her once (without indication that it was to make a point as in the other comment), by suggesting she let go of her rage and anger, due to her repeated judgemental comments abt me. I believe it was not harsh. I presented in way of a suggestion. I had restrained myself for days. Finally, it was a reaction frm hurt and upset despite my many polite responses to her. Regardless, i should not have.
            1.5 days later, with a more clear mind, i wrote the comment abt how it is important not to be judgemental.

            In that instance, it was hypocritical. Since i normally do not do that, i do not label myself a hypocrite. I noticed that u did not state i am a hypocrite. U stated that my behavior was hypocritical. Yes, in this instance it was hypocritical. I take responsibility for that. Thus i retract my comment. I do not retract any other comment towards her.

            Abt the joke, i agree with u. I was trying to relay the same point frm the beginning, obviously unsuccessfully. Bibi made a joke indicating disgust towards the narc. TZ laughed in an evil manner, indicating that she wholeheartedly agrees with bibi. The comment resonated with her. It indicates anger, which is fine, for her. I do not wish to be the recipient of her anger in the future though.

            Ty hg.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I have made my point. It remains intact.

      2. HG, Are you describing a victim narcissist?

    2. SuperXena says:

      Hello Jenna,
      I understand why you want to make your point. Sometimes it is difficult to drop a discussion when one is blinded merely by the need of making a point just for the sake of doing it without understanding what the main issue is.
      It is very easy to be judgemental without noticing it. The comments and posts here are interpreted by us in many different ways ( very natural) and it is hard sometimes to understand that your interpretation belongs to you and may differ from others…not giving anyone the right to dictate the rightness or wrongness of others’ interpretations.

      Please do not take this comment personally.See this as an exercise to understand more about yourself:

      There are actually no limits in learning for each day to be more introspective …
      See this as an opportunity to be able to do it

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi sx,

        Ty for ur comment. I did not take ur comment personally becoz i have read many of ur posts in the past, and have come to know a little abt u.

        I do understand what the main issue is. However, the method of delivery of the main issue is important.

        I do not think i am blinded. However, i can be excessive. I feel it legitimate and necessary to correct erroneous assumptions abt me.

        But i only do so after being pushed to the limit, which is what happened here. My tolerance level is not low. If u wish to read all the comments on this pg frm beginning to end, i am sure u will realize this.

        And the related comments here:

        https://narcsite.com/2017/11/19/the-narcissistic-truths-no-201-2/#comments

        Ty.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          And so it happens once again.

        2. SuperXena says:

          Hello Jenna,
          Thank you for your answer. I think that you did not really understand what I meant.
          If you analyse your answers here, you use the word ” however”and “but” in many of your statements.That is to say that what you say in one statement is contradicted or put into contrast by the following statement.

          I.ex. ” I do understand what the main issue is. However, the method of delivery of the main issue is important.”

          My point is : either you understand the issue or not.
          The method of delivery as you call it is not the issue itself.

          This goes for your second paragraph as well:
          ” I do not think i am blinded. However, i can be excessive.”
          As I understand it..your excessiveness is blinding you.

          Sometimes one finds its own ways of not seeing the truth by making excuses with contradictory statements.
          It is like going round and round without wanting (?) to tackle the main issue or seeing the truth.

          Actually one of the many things I have learned (and still learning) here by interacting with other bloggers is to be more introspective…

          This introspection would help you a lot in your process to move forward from your (ex?) narc..

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi sx,

            Thx for ur comment. I really do believe delivery is important! Honestly! I am still learning here. I believe my own method of delivery has improved.

            I could have easily made those statements without using ‘however’ and ‘but’.

            eg. “I do understand what the main issue is. The method of delivery of the main issue is important.”

            “I do not think i am blinded. I can be excessive.”

            I am blinded when it comes to my ex narc, for sure.

            I am not blinded when i defend myself. I know what i am feeling. Nobody else knows what i am feeling. So i correct them if it is wrong.

            There is always room for learning and i am willing to do that.

        3. SuperXena says:

          Jenna,
          Just adding : a good mental training that I find very effective in order to acquire clear cut thoughts is by formulating your ideas and statements without using the words: but,if,however…
          In such a way the idea/thought is very “clean”,straight forward and realistic.

          Other words to avoid in order to have determination about something is i.ex.”I hope” that can be substituted by :”I will”…
          Two short words that make a huge difference when using them.

  7. jenna says:

    Hoover texts:

    Thu nov23 (7:33am) (day 2 nc, hoover 1)
    Him: Hi how r u

    Me: no reply

    Sat nov 25 (1:50am) (day 4 nc, hoover 2)
    Him:
    Do you wanna have that meaningful conversation ? I felt like I was being rude

    But I wasn’t at all.. (1:50am)

    You know right? (1:51am)

    Me: no reply

    Sat nov 25 (10:09am) (day 4 nc, hoover 3)
    Him:I had a friend who has same problem like you, she was madly in love with guy years ago but now she was saying they are close friends and it’s working out for them.

    Him:
    I think we should do the same but they don’t share everything, they talk and do things like regular people do. But she’s head strong. She came over it years ago, she goes to Gym, has her own business and has pretty good social life (10:11am)

    Me: no reply

    Sat nov 25 (10:18am) (hoover 4)
    Him: She also said, she used to be down back then but now she’s so energetic. We human beings try to improve ourselves, so why do we have to stick in past to make your present hell and destroy future?

    Him: You can think of all kind of reasons but if there is a Will there is a way. (10:19am)

    Me: no reply

    For fairness, in order to portray this episode accurately, i have pasted it.
    I did suspect nex wud apologize and then compromise half way, though i wasn’t 100% positive.

    I don’t want it to seem as though i am ‘mocking the rest’, as assumed (inaccurately) by TZ. Hence, I do not expect any comments on these hoover texts frm readers. I am simply posting them to follow up.

  8. Tappan Zee says:

    My experience:

    Had I waited to be “strong” I would still be engaged with the narc.

    Had I waited to be off HEAVY benzos, antidepressants I would still be engaged with the narc.

    Had I waited to “feel” like leaving I would still be engaged with the narc.

    I still have anxiety, rage, anger, depression, bradycardia.

    I look back over the last 6 months post escape and wonder.

    OMG HOW DID I DO IT.

    I STILL FEEL WEAK.

    YOU JUST DO IT.

    IT IS HARD AF.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Precisely.

    2. Jenna says:

      Tz,

      “Had I waited to be off HEAVY benzos, antidepressants I would still be engaged with the narc.”

      Why would anyone wait to be off meds? For me at least, meds are lifelong.

      “I still have anxiety, rage, anger, depression, bradycardia.”

      I have anxiety, depression, and tachycardia if i do NOT engage with him.
      He brings me happiness most of the time. Normals bring me less hapiness.

      Rage and anger? No. I do not have it anymore. I did have anger, but instead i chose to understand him.

      I suggest u let go of ur rage and anger too. It is very freeing.

      1. Ugotit says:

        Hi Jenna reading this post I think it would be helpful to your mental and physical state if u got into some type of training such as yoga weightlifting running or some other physical exercise routine no I’m not calling u fat.I’m very serious when I say going back to the gym everyday is a lifesaver for me my narc is hoovering again when I focus myself completely on my body and push it a little harder each week and see my strength and endurance increasing and I work out my stress levels drop and endorphins are released I have suffered ocd and anxiety generalized all my life but I don’t have actual panic attack just free floating anxiety but it really does help

      2. Jenna says:

        Hi kim,

        I didn’t receive this comment in my inbox, but recently saw it on this page.

        I think that is a great suggestion. I appreciate it. Yes, i will try to do that. Of course i know u r not calling me fat. U r v nice and wud not do that!

        He hoovered u? I hope u r trying to stay strong and fight the hoovers. I am sorry that u r not even sure if u are still married to him, as per the religious law. I read one of ur comments regarding this. However, this does not mean u need to reply to him. U can go to the local mosque and ask the authority there. It will hopefully give u some closure.

        I am so happy the gym workouts are helpful. That is very encouraging for me too!

        Ty kim.

  9. JenniferJ says:

    Dear HG,

    Thank you for describing the traits of a “doormat” empath, as well as the family dynamic and atmosphere that breeds this kind of personality.

    It made me very sad to read your post because I feel there must be a lot of pain in the heart of a “doormat” empath when their well-meaning, loving efforts are abused and unappreciated by their own family who is supposed to care about them the most. I think people who constantly give of themselves expect deep down that their “love” will be appreciated and reciprocated in a loving way. When it’s not, they try even harder to make it happen, until they start feeling that it’s simply expected of them.

    As you have described, the family dynamic starts from childhood. In your opinion, what could a child – or young person, who is still dependent on their family – do to try to curb the damaging effects of their family’s behaviour. Do you think there is any way for the child/teenager to resist the progressive conditioning that such a family inflicts?

    Since a child is so dependent on their family and is typically surrounded by them all the time, I think it would be nearly impossible to resist the damage.

    It would be interesting to hear your opinion.

  10. Ugotit says:

    Hg in regards to what u said to Jenna I u derstand her the only reason I’m not engaging with my narc is because he hasn’t contacted me for exactly four months the discard the first time lasted three and a half months .I will never contact him first and never have so unless he contacts me and I’m pretty sure he won’t this time we will never speak again but if he was still texting me I would probably respond but I’d like to say I wouldn’t but haven’t had the opportunity this time to test myself . therefore I’m obviously still emotionally attached to him but am able to resist contacting him I also know I would not be able to tolerate occasional texts though it would either be a full relationship or I’d leave him I just feel bad for Jenna she’s not ready to disengage it would probably be better for her if he blocked her and imposed a silent treatment on her

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Why would he do that when she is being compliant and remaining under his control? That is just another excuse.

      1. Ugotit says:

        Lol yes I know its an excuse but it would force her into no contact and my narc never seemed to need a reason to give me the silent treatment and I’m blocked now lol guess I wasn’t being compliant as I thought I was

  11. Mrs Linton says:

    Of all the things I have seen on the blog, this is the hardest to take.

  12. Noname says:

    Interesting… In my country we have another meaning of the word “doormat”. It is someone who has zero self-esteem, zero self-respect, no opinion to all matters, frightened, weak-willed, shameful. Doormat is absolutely passive and obedient. Doormat is not a people “pleaser”. Doormat doesn’t need a validation, because he/she accepts him/herself as he/she really is. Doormat doesn’t think at all, he/she just does what people say without second thought. Doormat is a “shadow”. Doormat is an irreversibly broken person.

    The people, you call a “doormat” in your countries, are called as “mommies” or “nurses” in mine, and your description of them is pretty accurate. It is really caring, tolerant, forgiving, and kind people. They love their “narc-kids” and “narc-patients” and take excellent care about them.

    And, like you said “We (narcissists*) are made for the doormat” and this is the real truth. The “mommy” and “nurse” type of women, unfortunately for them, is the best choice for a Narc. They can’t heal their Narcs, but they can create very pleasant and relaxing microclimate at their homes.

    And of course, they are very glad when their Narcs become successful. As any mothers and nurses are glad for their children and patients. They don’t operate with “I” category. It is always “We”.

    Your sister is wonderful, Tudor. Saint. Protect her.

  13. Bekah B says:

    I was doing so well.. I literally caught my narc in the middle of the night with another woman.. One that I warned him to stay away from because she had been the instrument of his new relationship flaunting during my discard.. He hoovered me and left her about 3 months ago and we were living together.. But the one time he asked to stay the night with his mother to care for her because she was ill, I caught him, face to face with this other woman.. I was non-emotional during this encounter and instead just had a bag packed with his things that I handed to him and I went on my way.. He was sulken.. Obviously embarrassed.. I exposed him.. And I was well on my way, commencing no contact.. I felt like I had finally taken a stand, after these horrendous 2 years.. But, most recently, my narc got his foot in the door and then ran with it.. He had somewhere to go in the morning with my son and asked to spend the night at my house and sleep on the couch.. In the middle of the night, he appeared in my bed, saying nothing at all.. And after about 35 mins of tossing and turning to keep awake (no words spoken), he made his move on me, sexually.. I was too afraid to try and stop him.. And he was rough, almost as if he was punishing me for exposing him in the prior month.. Ever since that night, I feel like I’ve lost my power.. Less than 48 hours later, he asked me for money and I gave it to him.. He said was going to pay me back and texted me on the day he said he was gonna come by later and give me the money, but never came by and never contacted me the next day.. I know he is convinced that no matter what he does, he can receive any and everything he wants from me.. I cried myself to sleep last night coming to the realization that my threshold for this abuse is so very high.. I feel just like the proverbial doormat and he definitely treats me as one..

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Bekah
      I am so sorry to hear this. Have you done a consult with HG since this happened? I don’t have words that may help right now, but I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers and light a novena candle for you as soon as I get back home from Nashville.

      I have a niece named Bekkah who is in a very similar situation, but she has a little girl. I will keep you in my thoughts like my niece and pray that you find guidance and strength. It is just a temporary set back. Don’t give up.
      ❤️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️❤️

      1. Bekah B says:

        Thank you, Windstorm..

        I haven’t had a consult with HG since this.. Instead, I have been reading his book, “Fuel” and I plan to read “Sex and the Narcissist”.. This was the first sexual encounter I have had with my narc in all of these 7 years where I felt like he was actually trying to hurt me, in between him trying to garner some type of emotional reaction from me in this intimate act so he could be fueled.. Otherwise, he was receiving absolutely no fuel from me whatsoever at all.. I didn’t engage with him during my no contact, obviously, and the night he was at my house recently, I just didn’t speak to him.. And I know he’s not used to that.. I believe that him committing this act was his way of asserting his power and control over me and taking revenge for exposing him.. But again, I feel like the doormat for allowing it to happen, although I must admit it didn’t have the bonding and emotional attachment effect it used to have on me.. Instead, it really did feel like abuse.. And each time I think about it in depth, I wonder how my threshold became so high for all of his abuse..

        I’m a bit more emotional because of the holiday season and my birthday is in a few days.. I love this time of the year, but it always feels better when you have someone to share it with.. I don’t know, I guess I’m just grieving having somebody to love and be with, not so much my narc.. I have accepted he is not who I thought he was and I honestly can say I do not love him like I once did and I do not want to be around him..

        Bekkah with a double K.. I like it.. Is she with a narcissist? I have a daughter too.. My narcissist is her father.. My son is from a previous relationship and thankfully his father was a normal person.. Haha..

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Bekah
          You seem to have a good counselor. That’s great. That really helps. Do you not have any family nearby to be with on the holidays? I agree. Thanksgiving in particular just seems wrong to be alone. Of course you have your children. How old are they?

          I think youre absolutely right about the sex just being a dominance and control thing. Maybe it can have some good luck effect if it causes you to see that any love you had for him is gone.

          I have never met the father of my Bekkah’s little girl. They live in another state. None of them ever speak about him to me, but I get the feeling he probably is a narc, just based on his history with Bekkah that I have heard.

          I hope that you have a happy thanksgiving day and a great birthday next week! I have lit a candle for you and am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. ❤️

      2. Bekah B says:

        Thanks again, Windstorm.. Thanksgiving is actually my favorite holiday, but this year, my mother and younger siblings have traveled out of state to go see my older sister in Maryland.. I couldn’t go because I couldn’t get the time off from work.. My son is 9 years old and my daughter is 18 months.. My son is with his dad’s mother for Thanksgiving.. I may just have dinner with them, otherwise, I won’t have anywhere to go or anything to eat later today.. Lol.. Thank you again, soooo much, for your concern.. I hope all is well with you and you have an enjoyable holiday 🙂

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          Thanks, Bekah. You, too!

    2. Jenna says:

      Oh bekah!

      That is just horrible! It’s absolutely unacceptable! Making a sexual move on u in bed, by first just tossing and turning. And not returning the money. And the other woman!

      I’m so very sorry. Pls don’t cry. We are here for u. Try to stay strong sweety and pls try the no contact again, frm ur end.

      1. Bekah B says:

        Thanks for your reply, Jenna.. Yeah, it is pretty horrible.. Just when I think things cannot escalate or that I have seen it all before, he really does do something that is unspeakable.. I promise, I have never been treated so badly by another human being before ever in my life.. But I am trying to stay strong.. My counselor explained something to me this past week.. It is that a day of contact does not have to entirely break and end No Contact.. Just pick up from the last day of no contact, discount the days you did have contact, then implement it again, and continue with it.. I know that really does make elementary sense, but I didn’t even see it that way until she said it.. So I am grateful to her and this forum and you all for your kind words and transparency and different perspectives.. All of these things combined will ultimately help me and get me where I know I need to be mentally and emotionally..

        Since the last text I received from him, saying he would come by to give me the money back, I have not contacted him.. It was pointless to remind him or to verify he was going to stick to his word.. So I have had an additional 3 days of complete No Contact.. All I want to get out of my system now is the nagging uncertainty of if he will reach out to me for my birthday next week.. My bet is that he is going to forget.. I shall see, though..

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi bekah,

          Yw.

          I absolutely believe u when u say u have never let another human being treat u poorly b4 in ur life. Such is the curse of the golden prd.

          I am happy to hear that ur no contact can be picked up where left off. That is encouraging!

          Pls try not to think of whether or not he will contact u for ur bday. Remember, he is a low life scum bag, useless. I have stopped thinking abt nex since my recent posts here, and so far i am ok. Fingers crossed.

          Happy thanksgiving bekah – to u, ur son, ur little girl, and ur family. 💗

          And happy early bday to u!

  14. Witch says:

    Interesting.. I survived by being a semi doormat, while staying quiet and cultivating secret rebellions internally, until I bossed the F up after my first abusive relationship (not with a narcissist, just a regular who grew up around domestic violence. Controlling but didn’t operate on fuel.)
    And started taking back control and responsiblity over my own life.
    My brief brush with a narcissist is what sealed the deal for me learning to say “no” and generiously making use of that block button.
    My mother says I’ve turned for the worst. Well I hope so!

  15. Blank says:

    “The doormat feels undeserving of being loved. They want to be loved for what they do, rather than for what they are.”

    That is because the doormat was trained by the Matrinarc to feel this way. You only feel loved if you do what she wants you to do.

    “If they perceive that they are taking they feel alarm and distress.”

    Absolutely right. Because you were taught that when you take, you know you’re gonna have to return a favor some day.
    Matrinarc’s giving was never unconditional. I would’nt be able to recall all the times she said to me: “I did this or that and now you (or they) don’t even do/give me this or that”.

  16. Romi says:

    Oh my God! This last line just killed me.

    At least save your sister. She’s not the only one who can serve your purpose

    1. M. says:

      Jenna,
      hi sweetie.
      I am happy to read that you are not engaging with him at the moment. I know what kind of struggle this whole thing is.
      My panic comes every night around 1.00. It does not last long, but if I am not asleep it wakes me up.
      It has been almost two years that I stopped the intimate relationship, but I still have that problem and I cannot help it. I was far worse, back then. I could not even eat. I wish you get better-and you will, I promise.
      I have been here in the blog for almost 2 years, since January 2016, I think. I just didn’t comment that often.
      No, I have never been mean to HG. I owe him and he has never harmed me in any way. I anyway believe that as long as you are part of this blog, you have to respect the host.
      So, I think you are mixing me with someone else 🙂 Still, I think I am a bit dry in some of my comments, generally speaking, I am not the sweetest person in here, I know that. I am much sweeter in real life, haha.
      But I like most of the people in here. I think HG keeps the standards high 🙂
      Be well.

      1. M. says:

        *If I am asleep it wakes me up.

      2. Jenna says:

        Hi m,

        Ty for the encouragement.

        I’m really sorry ur panic attacks wake u up. I can totally relate. “I wish you get better-and you will, I promise” – this means alot to me. So there is hope for my week long panic attacks after all.

        I must be mixing u with someone else then. Thx for clarifying.

        I know most pple here wud be even sweeter in real life. Irl, we have facial expressions and body language to look at, and that will definitely make anyone sweeter. But u r sweet. Ty.

        I pray that ur panic attacks leave u forever.

      3. Roju says:

        Dear Jenna, I hope you see this. I just finished reading your comments and wept. I weep because you remind me of myself. I googled tachycardia and it sounds similar to what I had.
        My breathing was abnormal and sometimes I couldn’t breathe at all. Many people may not get it, they will think you are exaggerating or imagining stuff. I would be gasping for breath and would lie still on the floor wherever I was because I was not sure I could take the next breathe. The physical pain was/ is hell. Sometimes, it felt like I was set on fire. I would be running out of pain and saying to myself, ‘I’m on fire, I need help, I’m on fire…’ I rolled off my bed once and sprained my ankle during a panic attack, etc.
        I share these to let you know that I understand what you are going through. I experienced these during contact and also when I cut contact. Like you, I tried to detach slowly- epic fail.
        The only thing I’ve found to work is complete and total no contact. It’s a winning formular. Initially, I thought I would die when I blocked him because my whole system collapsed. I was no longer functioning. But the little logic I had left knew the only cure was to eject him completely from my system. Drugs might help but I was the only one who could help myself. One friend understood, a little. Others couldn’t believe that a ‘strong woman’ like me had become so weak. Only HG, his blog and books understood completely. So I slept on this blog all day and read myself to stupor. I preferred NC death because it did not come with abuse. With my ex, I was dying too but it came with nasty abuse that I could no longer bear. Since I was dying anyway, I was ready to go with whatever was left of my self-esteem. The thing about NC death is that you will rise again. I’m getting better, some days suck though. But the type of death of you are engaging with presently will kill and bury you. He was also very sweet and loving when he chose to be but he remains the most cruel human I know. Take it from me, there’s nothing there. I know you know that. Like M said, you haven’t seen anything yet. I don’t want you to face the shock of him dropping all his facade. He will, he’s watching you keenly and waiting for the perfect time to bury you completely. I agree with Noname that you are not fully ready, but don’t wait until you are ready. Just do it. I wish you could block him right now, like right now. Then face the pain. And fear. And death. You can conquer the three. Make up your mind and face it. Just do it. It’s all in the mind. You won’t die, you will come close to it but you will rise. I’m beginning to thrive Jenna, please join me on this side. Hugs.

        1. jenna says:

          Hi roju,

          Ty for reaching out to me.

          I am sorry u suffer frm panic attacks and tachycardia. U r correct. Many pple may not understand it.

          It feels like a hammer is being pounded in my chest back and forth. It actually feels like it is making my body move. I can feel every single beat. When i stand, it is so heavy, i cannot walk properly. I need to hunch becoz the heaviness weighs me down. It is very painful. And it lasts up to one wk. During that wk, i take extra pills, and eat one meal per day to keep myself alive, otherwise i find eating difficult.

          The labored breathing fortunately subsides within a few hrs (so i do not use that symptom as an excuse). I am gasping for breath, trying to get the oxygen in, but the breaths are very shallow and difficult to achieve. It feels like i am being smothered. During these times, I wish i was never born. I do not even want to breathe.

          I experience uncontrollable body tremors during panick, esp evident in my hands, fingers, and head. It gives me a headache and nausea. I have to take benzos, beta blockers, tylenol, and lay down. Meds help approx 40%. If i am not at home and cannot lay down, i try my best to force my head movements to stop by clenching my jaw. I will not speak and i just look to the ground so that nobody notices.

          I am so sorry u sprained ur ankle during a panic attack. It hurts me to read this.

          I am happy u are nc. I applaud those who are. I am also happy u are starting to thrive, but i am sorry that some days are difficult for u.

          Ur comment means alot to me. Comments of a kind nature, and relaying personal similar experience resonate best with me. I don’t know why anyone would think harsh comments will work. If anything, they just push me more towards my ex, becoz i will look to him for comfort, which he always provides when i am distressed due to others.

          So far, i have not replied to him. I could not block him becoz i wanted to know if he wud reach out to me. It wud make me feel better.

          I have turned read receipts off tho, so he will not know if i have read his msgs. Actually, his read receipts were turned off, so the format in whatsapp wud not allow him to see my read receipts either. But since there is a chance he turned his back on to determine if i have read his msgs, i made sure i turned mine off.

          Ty for the encouragement. It helps me to stay nc for longer. But i don’t know for how long i can do it. I am trying. Ur words of encouragement have helped me. Today, i was thinking of replying to him. But after reading ur comment, i have chosen not to.

          Funny, after reading TZ’s comments, i was v v v close to contacting him, looking for his comforting words. Obviously he does not know i am on this forum, and god forbid he ever discover that, but i wud simply state that i am suffering panick due to some online interaction, and he leads me step by step thru breathing exercises to help me relax. He always does. His voice is very calming, and becoz the soothing words are coming frm him, it really relaxes me.

          Why do some pple not realize that harshness will have the opposite effect?

          Ty roju. Ty to hg, u, windstorm, m, noname, k. U give me strength.

          Hugs to u too. I want to join u on the other side. I can picture u waiting there for me, reaching ur hand out to me. This is bringing tears to my eyes as i type.

          Ty again. Peace and healing to u.

  17. I do much for those that I care about/deserve it and I’m happy too (probably too much at times) but once I sense that I’m being thought of at as a doormat or taken advantage of and am pushed too far I become a door that’s shut. My children,for example. I do much for them, but once they go too far or start to act like I’m a servant – I apparently give them a look (they’ve told me) that causes them to quickly change.

    1. Ugh… the typos. I’m having a typo-filled day!

    2. M. says:

      Jenna,
      you have me reading you carefully. I sometimes sound strict or even cruel in my comments here, but I swear to you, I have been through exactly the same. I gave an enormous fight against my emotions, and enormous is an understatement. I was torn in two. Physical pain? I am still suffering from panic attacks. Almost every night I wake up, sweating, with my heart beating like hell. And it has been years. What you have been doing here, exposing full dialogues, I did it 24/7 with two of my friends. They were my audience. One of them,a childhood friend, is not a friend anymore. I lost other friends too. I almost lost my family, my job. I certainly lost me. Anti-depressants, a doctor, wine and cigarettes. I used to be a beautiful woman and I became ugly. Really ugly. And my heart became dark.
      But, Jenna. I found HG. Every single moment I was ready to fall, he lifted me up. Every.Single.Moment. With his writings, I mean. His often unpleasant, but so incredibly useful writings. And I made it. Not completely healed, (of course not, I am still here, although not every night now) but I made it. Lean on his writings-or his consultations. Lean on him. Listen to him. Listen to his logic. I never thought I would say that to anybody, but only logic can save you. And the ugly, horrible truth.

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi m,

        Ty for ur comment. I am sorry u suffer frm panic attacks. They are horrible. How long do urs last? Mine last up to one wk – the tachycardia component does at least. The labored breathing improves after a few hrs thankfully.

        I do recall when u first came on board. It was not more than six months or so back, correct? Was that u i am remembering? I recall u were being harsh with hg too, and rs and i said u were being mean?😅

        Yes u r right m. Logic is the only aspect that can save me. I realize that for sure.

        I’m sorry u lost ur friend and ur job. I can relate to this. Two of my friends were my audience as well, but one of them was very rude to me on more than one occasion. She gave me panic attacks many times also. I finally went nc with her. After several months, i texted her and asked if we could meet. I wanted to talk it out, no matter how many hrs it takes. I didn’t want ex narc, the ultimate cause of our break up, to have that much power. Her good qualities outweigh her bad qualities. She has been my friend for over 10 yrs, and i did not want to lose her. We are back together now. I am pleased abt that. She is not an empath. She is a normal.

        U r right abt hg. His writings have saved me frm thinking it’s my fault. When ex narc used to future fake, cancel, postpone, i used to think i am the prblm. I discovered frm hg’s writings, that i am not the prblm. It is him. Knowing this saved me frm self blame.

        I also post texts so that lovely pple here can comment on them. Maybe they can see something that i don’t see, due to my emotional attachment to him? It certainly helps me get closer to my goal. As of now, i have not engaged with him.

        Ty M for ur thoughtfulness.

  18. Jenna says:

    His reply:

    “I’m not angry or stressed. I’m calm like the (*insert name of lake*) lake.

    I don’t get angry or stressed anymore. Was just trying to have a meaningful conversation.”

    My reply:
    “Ok”

    After 2.5 hrs,
    Me:
    “😪”

    Him after 4 mins:
    “?
    You good?”

    I didn’t reply after that.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      Block.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        jenna– the title of this is door mat. yet you banter with texts et al served to the abuser. does the irony not strike you here? it’s as if you mock the rest who take narcs seriously. you’re only hurting your self. by playing with fire. and pretending it’s barbie dolls. fueling him, while you siphon off. i wish you thought yourself worth more. worth anything. but alas, no..

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi tappan zee,

          Thanks for ur comment.

          ” … the title of this is door mat. yet you banter with texts et al served to the abuser. does the irony not strike you here?”
          Can u explain this? I did not quite understand it.

          I certainly don’t mock the rest who take narcs seriously, and i hope i don’t come across like that. I just recognize that my abuse is much less than what others have suffered, eg.physical violence, malice, name calling, insults etc. My ex is usually very nice to me, overly nice. If he ever makes a mistake, i question and challenge him. He corrects himself quite promptly and apologizes.

          I am seeing a side of him i did not expect. I knew to expect the unexpected, but not this. His cognitive empathy is usually high.

          Everyone has to cross a certain point for them to be done. I had not crossed that point yet. I may be coming close, unless he apologizes. Knowing him, he will apologize within 3 days.

          Tz, I do know that i am worth more. However, one of my prblms is this – i experience physical symptoms like intense tachycardia if he withdraws. It’s quite painful. To avoid that, i will try to keep the peace btwn us, up to a certain point. But then i feel uneasy because i did not voice my opinion. I have to decide which option is worse, unfortunately.

          I did text him the following earlier in the convo.

          Me:
          “i shud remember that ur a narc, and u don’t care abt pple”

          Him:
          “I did care but i learned my lessons”
          (*he’s referring to my treachery of exposing him to a few pple*)

          Me: “i disagree. U never cared”

          Him:
          “ok, i don’t want to argue.
          That’s your opinion”

          I wanted to say so much more after that, like remind him of his past future faking (which he did correct). But i stopped myself, due to fear of being blocked. Him blocking me induces chest pain too.

          I have a feeling i’ll tell him off tmrw. That’s how i’m feeling at present. I have ignored him since his last question ‘you good?’ so rn i can take this anywhere. Hg loves to be challenged. But my ex, being a cowardly mid-ranger, dislikes challenge fuel. He avoids it like the plague. So it will not be as tho i am fuelling him. It will wound him. I do not like to wound him actually, if i can avoid it becoz i realized that he becomes so depressed frm wounding, that i regret it later. But rn i feel unheard. I need him to hear me. Let’s see what happens.

          K, if ur reading this, it is real time narc action! It’s one of the reasons i posted it. I also wanted to write it out. It helps me.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Jenna. You are completely missing the point.

            TZ is making the point that the article is called The Doormat and you comment about the narcissist in a way which
            a) shows you are a doormat ; and
            b) you carry on thinking what you are doing is actually okay

            TZ (and others) are repeatedly frustrated by your utter failure to even try to do something to arrest your emotional thinking. You claim to understand but then carry on engaging with him and posting your exchanges with him. Your comments are laden with delusion caused by your emotional thinking and this makes a mockery of those who are trying to do something about their situations.

            You continue to engage with a narcissist. You continue to make excuse after excuse as to why doing so is “okay”. No matter how many times people point it out to you, you do nothing about it.

          2. Jenna says:

            Hi hg,

            Ty for ur comment.

            I don’t think what i’m doing is ok. That’s why i usually question him. But this time when i questioned him, he did not show cognitive empathy, which surprised me. He usually always does. I forced myself to apologize, in order to avoid a panic attack frm being blocked, but apologizing made me uneasy because i was not heard.

            I will most likely not even reply to him because rn i feel nothing for him. Thank god. I mean, thank you (as u suggested to thank u instead of god in another thread😊).

            As u know, i have made changes in my contact with him. I have a few more steps to attain though. For me, i could not do it cold turkey else it causes me alot of physical symptoms. Hence, i am doing it gradually.

            The first step was to stop seeing him. Successful✔️

            The second was to stop texting him (tho i regressed last wk)
            Mostly succesful – approx 80%✔️

            The 3rd step will be to not look fwd to his texts
            This is very difficult, but i might be getting there becoz when i woke up this morning, like i stated, i felt nothing for him. I hope this feeling will persist. Fingers crossed.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome. Whilst you have made some progress as you describe, here is the blunt truth

            1. By not seeing a narcissist you are cutting off the greatest way of impacting on the emotional infection, however, this step is being substantially undermined because you continue to engage with him.
            2. You wanted to stop texting him. This has not been mostly successful. You have failed.

            There is no logical reason why you cannot impose a total no contact. You advance excuses, driven by emotional thinking, not to do it and this “step” process is just an excuse. You are susceptible to our kind. EVERY time you engage with us in some way (think about us for more than a brief moment, talk about us with other people, speak to us, text us, see us) you are feeding the emotional infection and allowing your emotional thinking to take a hold until it governs you completely. If you are playing Russian roulette and pull the trigger once and only once and survive, you will not die with a hole in your head. Pull the trigger again, then again, then again and you increase the risk of it happening. It is the same with engaging us. The more you do it, the greater the risk. Some people have the logic defences and rigour to be able to engage with us ten times before emotional thinking grabs them, some people have this happen after just one or two engagements. You know what he is, you know the risks there is NO need to take that risk.

            If you woke up this morning and felt nothing for him, why did you not impose total no contact then?

            You have no credible or logical reason whatsoever not to go total no contact with this person.

          4. Jenna says:

            Hg, of course u r correct. There is no doubt there. I lack the rigour i guess.

            Reading all the comments on this specific situation is making me see him for what he is. This is why i also like to give the exact scenario. Otherwise, i think to myself, ‘well my narc is a little different. He’s wounded’. Here, i have pasted the exact texts, have received valuable feedback, and i have decided not to engage with him.

            Thank YOU, not god!

      2. Noname says:

        Tudor and dear girls,

        Don’t be so hard on Jenna.

        She understands everything.

        She sees everything (and she is capable to see and sense more than ordinary people).

        But. Listen to her:

        “Everyone has to cross a certain point for them to be done. I had not crossed that point yet. I may be coming close, unless he apologizes”.

        “However, one of my prblms is this – i experience PHYSICAL symptoms like INTENSE TACHYCARDIA if he withdraws. It’s quite PAINFUL. To AVOID that, i will try to keep the peace btwn us, up to a certain point”.

        See? It isn’t just an emotional thinking. You can ignore your “longing thoughts” by distracting youselves (going out with friends, dancing, reading, etc.). But you can’t ignore your physical pain. You can ignore your tachycardia. It is very real.

        Jenna is dependent on him not only on emotional level, but PHYSICAL also. And that’s another level of problem. More complex. More serious. No contact (withdrawal) can kill her and it isn’t an empty phrase. So, be careful with your criticism and advices, no matter how well-intentional they are.

        Jenna,
        I see that you see your problem clearly and I see your attempts to fix it. But do it with really good professional. Step-by-step. And don’t give up. Big hug for you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for your perspective Noname.

          “Everyone has to cross a certain point for them to be done. I had not crossed that point yet. I may be coming close, unless he apologizes”. – no, this is just an excuse imposed by emotional thinking. Logic tells you this is a narcissist therefore all of the oft repeated points that go with that, therefore impose no contact.

          “However, one of my prblms is this – i experience PHYSICAL symptoms like INTENSE TACHYCARDIA if he withdraws. It’s quite PAINFUL. To AVOID that, i will try to keep the peace btwn us, up to a certain point”. – then you withdraw from him by going no contact so he cannot withdraw from you and cause this. I daresay beta blockers or a relevant benzodiazepine (if totally necessary) appropriately prescribed by the relevant doctor would assist also.

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi hg,

            I am on anti-depressants, beta blockers, and benzodiazepenes. It is totally necessary for me. U r correct. But they only help abt 40%. We have tried different meds, and they have helped even less than 40%. It is trial and error w the meds.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Noted, thanks for clarifying.

      3. Noname says:

        Thank you for your reply, Tudor.

        The first quote is really sounds as an excuse, but I see it as a statement of fact. Jenna just described what is going on inside of her at that exact moment. She’s not ready to fight yet, but she has a good start, if she decides to do it. She sees the whole horror of her situation.

        About beta blockers and diazepines. Probably. Probably not. The doctor has to make such decision after careful investigation of her vitals. We all have no right even to make such suggestions here.

        Anyway, please, don’t be hard on Jenna. She is very vulnerable now and the one non-careful word could change everything dramatically. Everything she needs right now, it a calm, friendly and supportive atmosphere and encouragement.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome. I recognise your stance which is understandable as you are different to me.

          1. It is an excuse. “If” she decides to do it – I haven’t seen one credible reason not to, it should already be in place.
          2. Hence why I mentioned about a doctor – there is nothing wrong with making such a suggestion.

          I am not being hard on her. I have been positively restrained believe me. I am providing the reality because that is all that is going to set her free which presumably is what she wants? If she chooses not to, then that is a matter for her of course.

          Anyway, I have applied more than enough time to this issue.

          1. Jenna says:

            Ty for ue time hg.

        2. Jenna says:

          Hi noname,

          I really appreciate u understanding me. It is definitely symptomatic for me. But i am trying. I think i needed nex to do this in order to realize that he is not always nice. In a way, i am happy he did it. I have not felt loving feelings for him today at all. Yipee!

      4. K says:

        Jenna
        I am reading all the narc action now and HG is correct; you should listen to him. I know it is difficult, but no more excuses. We are all here for you.

        1. Jenna says:

          Ty K, and everyone, for being here for me.

      5. Noname says:

        Thank you again for your reply, Tudor.

        “1. It is an excuse. “If” she decides to do it – I haven’t seen one credible reason not to, it should already be in place”.

        Not so fast, my dear man. Some people need a time to “seize the power” to start the “war”.

        For example, if I say to you “You know well, that fury (caused by criticism) could cause a dramatical impact on your body health. You need to decrease your vulnerability and increase your tolerance to criticism. You have to evoke certain childhood memories and sort some things out for that”.

        You agree with such statement, you understand that it has to be done for sake of survival, but how fast do you implement it? Do you need a time to prepare yourself for that important step? Do you need a time to “seize the power”, because you know that it would be pretty painful process?

        So, that’s my answer. People have to do anything only when they feel they are ready for it. The mere desire to change something is not enough. You have to have an internal strength, right circumstances, money, and external suport to win the “war”. No hope for miracle should be there, just smart, logical and careful planning. Jenna is in the process of “seizing a power” yet. She isn’t ready.

        “2. Hence why I mentioned about a doctor – there is nothing wrong with making such a suggestion”.

        Agreed. I don’t know what about your country, but in my country you can buy ANY medical drug without doctor’s prescription (legally or illegaly). So, the mere mention of the drug’s name, could force the listener or reader to go to the drug story and buy it! People know nothing about dynamic, side-effects, contraindications or proper dosage of such drugs… We have pretty high level of death cases in my country, because of “self-treatment”. That’s why I expressed my alarm about it. It isn’t wise to mention any drug’s names here, because you don’t know what people could do with such information.

        “I am not being hard on her. I have been positively restrained believe me”.

        I know. I see it.

        “I am providing the reality because that is all that is going to set her free which presumably is what she wants? If she chooses not to, then that is a matter for her of course”.

        By all means. Just be careful doing it. Many people need a special approach to fix their problems.

        Big hug for you also. You are doing a great and honorable job, Tudor.

    2. SHG says:

      Don’t waste anymore of your precious time on this individual

      1. Jenna says:

        Shg,

        Thx for ur comment. U may be reading my posts for the first time. Is it that obvious to u that he is a narc? Some pple, when they read my posts for the first time, think he may not be a narc. But he is – confirmed by hg. U r very perceptive.

      2. Tappan Zee says:

        SHG—you mean us? smh

        1. Jenna says:

          TZ,
          I think she meant my ‘let’s not create a scene where blocking is required’ ex narc. Hehe…

    3. Bekah B says:

      Hi Jenna..

      I have read all of the comments you posted on this article, so far.. I’ll be honest and say you sound like me (and yes, it is STILL me on the inside).. You feel strongly compelled to “have your say”.. To use “logic” to show and prove to him that he does not consider your feelings.. You are convinced you “know him”, to the point you’re sure he will eventually apologize.. You have made him aware he is a narcissist.. You continue to engage with him.. All of these things.. But there really does come a point in time that you have to stop doing these things, as far as committing actions that directly engage with him.. I have done all of these things in the past, that you are currently doing now.. The only difference with me now is I have the self-control to not initiate communication with him.. Believe it or not, my narc used to be reasonably nice too.. But I can guarantee if you make an otherwise seemingly cowardly mid-range narcissist that does not like “challenge fuel” aware that he is in fact a narcissist, he will SHOW you just what that means for you.. So sure, he is reasonably nice and polite now, but slowly and surely, the manufacturing…the calculations…the malice will come.. And I can assure you, you do not want that.. The fact that you cannot relate to numbers 5, 7, 9, and 10 show that perhaps, you are not so much of the doormat as this article describes, and that is a very good thing.. Please take that self-esteem that you do not feel is wrapped up into him, his life, and his accomplishments and use it to advance your life for yourself.. Need not be concerned with what he is doing and if he will respond to you and if he will take heed to what you have to say when you tell him off.. I think it would be best for you to still get off your chest all that you have to say and type it up or record it or something, but just do not send it to him.. This way, you will still have released what is bottled up inside you and hopefully this eases your cardiac issues..

      I can only imagine the blank stares and complete disregard my narc must have had when reading my calm, clear, and truly empathizing emails.. Those in which I tried to appeal to him and convince him to treat me better.. And then there is that all too real vivid memory in my mind of his actual face and demeanor when those emails eventually transformed into face-to-face pleas from me to him for the pain to stop.. He was patronizing…dismissive…full of cold, silent contempt.. I can assure you, nothing you say matters to people like this.. You cannot rationalize any behaviors that either of you perform and expect them to understand your reasoning.. You take the risk of further damaging your mental, emotional, (and physical) health when engaging with them.. And it is just not worth it.. He probably only apologizes now because he does not feel he has received all of the potential fuel he can get from you and therefore does not want to be too harsh and commence a full, malicious discard that will send you packing and never coming back.. Do not fall for the “wounding” gimmicks.. He is not depressed.. Since he is a mid-ranger, he reacts to wounding with cold fury.. But note that latter word: fury.. He is ANGRY, not depressed and sad.. And eventually, that anger will be lashed out at you.. I can assure you, again, you do not want that.. Please take this opportunity to escape as you contemplated before and stick with it, for at least 2-3 months, just as Windstorm suggested.. You really have to give yourself some time away from the communication with him.. Also imagine this: if he died, what would you do? At that time, you’d know for sure he is forever inaccessible.. How would you train yourself then to accept the fact you cannot have communication with him? It would come at a true physical and eternal loss of him.. Why not start that process now, while he is still alive, that way if death comes upon him before you, it won’t be so hard later.. I know that is an extreme, as far as thinking, but I believe it is logical and effective..

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well put. A minimum of 12 months is required in this instance.

      2. Jenna says:

        Bekah,

        Ty v much for ur detailed reply. I read it and noticed many similarities. U r almost predicting what will happen, and i value that, since u have been in the exact same situation.

        I am very sorry u endured all of that.

        Rn, i feel nothing for him. I don’t even feel like replying to him, after reading all the comments here. I hope this feeling lasts.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You do not have to hope. You can do something about it. So, do it.

          1. Jenna says:

            Oh yes, i am just recalling the article on hope. Hope is unecessary. Hope is useless, and keeps one frm moving fwd. I am so used to saying ‘i hope this, i hope that’ – but i shud remove it frm my vocab. Ok hg! Ty.

  19. Jenna says:

    He ended the texting w this:

    “I didn’t do it intensionally, neither I want to do so. It’s about your expectations from me, what do you expect from me now? If nothing, like you said earlier then your feelings should be okay.

    Whatever it is, let’s leave it on a peaceful note so that we both will be at ease.

    May you be at peace.”

    I replied w this:

    “Whenever u r depressed, it hurts me very much. I will do as much as i can to try to help out. I thought maybe u r willing to do the same by just hearing me out – nothing more than listening.

    But, i think my feelings don’t matter, esp if it brings u stress. It’s ok.

    I’m really sorry for angering u. Pls accept my sincere apology.”

    I’m getting exhausted. I’m a doormat.

  20. Jenna says:

    Not #5,7,9,or 10. But the rest apply to me.

    My heart is still racing frm his texts this morning where his facade was dropped. After 1.5 yrs, he dropped it. I am thinking of escaping again. Who am i kidding? Escape wud hurt me more. Maybe i shud tell him he’s a sex addict and block him. Idk. Im confused.

    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Jenna
      Telling him he’s a sex addict is meaningless. Escaping him will not hurt you more in the long run. Jenna dear, I know HG is always telling you this, but honest to God, you’re just thinking emotionally and never logically. I doubt you can look at him logically until you have totally removed him from your life for some time – at least 2-3 months of zero contact. I feel your pain but there is nothing I can do but pray and send you positive energy. I’ll shut up now and try not to comment anymore, but I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. ❤️

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi windstorm,

        I always appreciate ur comments. U need not ‘shut up’ as u wrote, at all! I do want to hear others’ perspective.

        Yes, my emotional thinking controls me. I thought i had become detached enuf frm him, becoz 4.5 wks (i think) had passed btwn his texts recently, and i was ok. But that convo was impersonal, and left me dissatisfied. After 2 convos like that, i voiced my concerns, and hence his reaction today.

        Also, pls see my long answer to tappan zee, if u can. It explains my feelings further. Ty windstorm for ur prayers. It is very kind of u. 💗

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      My heart is still racing frm his texts this morning where his facade…

      ^the heart with “conditions”?

      goso. stop the bs excuses. health, this and that. you do not want out. you went to be an se and some how be “the one” who conquers this. it will not happen, you’re deluding your self. and anyone who steps in to coddle and say, there there is only killing you. it feels good short term (they are doing that for selfish reasons btw) but will keep you closer to death than escaping. enablers fix and coddle to feel good about them selves, not to actually fix or heal you. because of you were fixed and healed? you would not need them. you are fuel to the coddlers much like that to the narc. you serve their purposes. not yours. you have no purpose (of your own) in this dynamic. once you step out you will. and you will find out what it is. you will serve your self. and collectively “they” will become irrelevant. i challenge you to post one time about you. only you. not him. not them. you. you. you.

      ^To Jenna

      1. Jenna says:

        Hi tz,

        My physical symptoms are a reality that last up to one week. Imagine intense tachcardia for one entire week? So much that i have to take pills and lay on my stomach to control the tachycardia using pressure. It is not ‘bs’. Hg says it is an excuse. Yes, it is an excuse, becoz hg is always correct. However, it is a reality.

        I do not “went to be an se and some how be ‘the one’ who conquers this”. I stated v clearly in ‘the super empath’ article that i am not an se. I do not aspire to be one either.

        I do not wish to ‘conquer’ this at all. My nex is usually very kind to me, so i thought a peaceful co-existence can occur. I also have alot of sympathy for him due to his childhood abuse. He was sexually abused by a male adult for yrs. It saddened me terribly. I am not trying to be a saint. It’s just how i feel.

        I have posted many times only abt me. I have been here for over one yr. Over time, i have learned that hg’s preference is to keep posts focussed on narcissism. So that is what i try to do.

  21. ANGELA FALSETTA says:

    What is your relationship with your sister now?? No Contact by her finally when she WOKE UP??? You sound proud of yourself…and why not…Served your purposes and took her life from her. wel. thank you because you just supported my NO Contact status with the entire narc “family” unit and I have never felt so good in my life as i do now!! it’s their loss!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      She still engages with me.

  22. Ugotit says:

    I have a few of these but not most

  23. Catherine says:

    I guess I could be defined as a doormat or a co-dependent, but I wouldn’t consider it to be an achievement at all;) Painful and something to feel ashamed of rather.

    I’ve given it lots and lots of thought though. I did grow up with a narcissistic parent who didn’t let me develop any kind of boundaries or healthy self esteem. I accommodate everyone else’s boundaries, too afraid of causing any hurt whatsoever, and it leaves me frustrated and exhausted most of the time. My understanding of love seems to be skewed since staying put in an abusive relationship for years wouldn’t work otherwise. I’m resilient, I want to solve other people’s problems for them and I absorb misplaced responsibility and guilt in an almost scary way. In the end though, I’ve always had this inner strength. No one can actually break my innermost spirit. I’ve been a loner all my life, I love spending time alone, I don’t need other people around except when in a needy relationship. I guess that’s because being around others takes too much energy for me and I’d rather be by myself. But when in love, all this changes and suddenly I’m someone who gives away all space and thought to someone else. Almost as if I’m uncomfortable with any light shining on me. And I do tend to find hopeless relationships wherever I look, as if I am actually afraid of commitment. It’s scary and I’m not quite sure why I seem to do this.

    1. Bekah B says:

      There’s a fine line between being co-dependent, highly sensitive, and what is considered an “empath”.. Thanks to this blog site and HG’s article “The Super Empath”, I have been doing some research on the empath.. It sounds as if you may be one.. I would encourage you to do some research about this topic, too, and see if you fit better into the definition of an empath, instead of co-dependent.. My guess is you do, because you have an inner strength that no one can break..

      1. Catherine says:

        Bekah B and Witch,

        Thank you for your answers. You may be right. I’ll certainly look into it. I recognise myself in lots of the traits as a co-dependent, but I do have this unbreakable spirit within. Thanks again!

      2. Tappan Zee says:

        co-dependent, highly sensitive, and what is considered an “empath”..

        ^trifecta: all 3 here

    2. Witch says:

      I recommend looking into attachment theory, it’s helped me a lot

    3. cheyenne says:

      Catherine, your comment here resonates with me much and I so identify with it as to how i felt when growing up and how I am with relationships also. Although, once it was obvious to me with narc, how callous and brutal and noncaring of my pain he was… Well, ..even though i still feel strongly for him, i couldn’t tolerate that type of obvious evil malice. Even when he’s hoovering and crying with silly meek pity plays and saying he can’t bear the silence when he always creates it! Its nuts, the mofo tries manipulates and bribes me by sending pics of women doing sexual things with him. I thought he was smart and he generally composes his self in a polite manner. But of course not when I’m adverse and noncomplient.

      1. Catherine says:

        Cheyenne,

        I’m sorry, I didn’t see your comment until now. I think I miss comments sometimes. Good for you that you got away from your narcissist. There’s really no hope at all for those kind of abusive relationships where it’s always a matter of a one way road. Better to move on. I find the hard part to be to learn to think and act logically, the heart is sometimes difficult not to obey.

  24. Becky says:

    Did your sister end up with a narcissist? (Assuming she is married) Or have many relationships with them, if she is not.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See “Chained”.

      1. Becky says:

        Thank you

      2. Lou says:

        Sometimes i wish I could go have tea and scones with Raechel and have a long and honest conversation, from empath to empath, about your family and her experience growing up with all of you… LOL

        But now that I think about it, maybe it would not be that fun…. I read enough about it here in your blog.

      3. Lou says:

        Actually, it is not true, I do not read enough of growing up in a narc family. I am still waiting for Lost little Boy (or something like that) and MatriNarc… 😉

      4. M. says:

        Windstorm, thank you for your answer. I see your point, I will think about it. Interacting with you is always a pleasure.
        Have a happy Thanksgiving too 🙂

  25. HG is it a tactic of your kind, to create a victim through demonstration? I could be wrong but I believe a lot of my traits came from my mother being aware of my attachment through copying. Several narcissists I have seen act the victim of domestic violence so as to normalise the behaviour so that the real victim will copy them, or accept this reality as normal and comply. The narcissist then waltzes out the door and lives a free life.
    If it is in your devil’s toolkit, I would like more articles on this because it is a particularly powerful tactic that taps into our need for community and caring. I am actually shocked out at how powerful the copycat tactic is. I recognise now my mother’s best move was ‘act like the victim I want her to become’. And my empathy drove me to adopt the victim’s behaviour.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is not a conscious decision but a consequence of the instinctive manipulations, but it is a valid observation about a particular consequence that does arise from our behaviour.

  26. Windstorm2 says:

    I have always been considered a doormat and proud of it! I am happiest when I am giving to others. I live my life by the golden rule and treat others as I wish to be treated. Helping others and being useful truly does bring me great joy.

    Where I have changed over the decades, however, is I no longer carry guilt. I have transformed my noose of guilt into a lei of beautiful, fragrant Hawaiian flowers 🌺.
    I no longer need to please others to feel loved or lovable. I have found a spring of love, happiness and joy deep within myself and it is from this deep soul-spring that I pour out my love and empathy to others through giving of my time and my love.

    If you all reading this are fellow doormats, don’t despair or give up hope. Giving of yourselves to others is not a bad thing if that is your nature and what brings you joy. Just release those taught feelings of guilt and realise that what other people think is not what’s important, as long as you are true to yourself and doing what brings you joy.

    1. M. says:

      Proud of being a doormat. So sad to read this, Windstorm…I guess that is a kind of self defence, too. Dealing with many marcissists for too long can bring that life philosophy. And who am I to judge what brings joy to you? But,still, it makes me sad…Because, apart from other things, people who are always giving and forgiving, encourage narc behaviour and, in a way, are responsible for further wounding of other victims. Please, think about it.

      1. Windstorm2 says:

        M
        I would hope that you did not understand my previous comment completely to have responded as you did. My “proud to be a doormat” statement was somewhat tongue in cheek. I am proud to be the person I want to be – in spite of that person being labeled “doormat” by narcissists. Sort of like the old children’s saying, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.”

        As I said I do not give out of guilt, I don’t give to gain love, I don’t feel at all that I am an unlovable person or that I need the approval of others. Those years are far behind me. I give of my time and my resources because I truly enjoy giving. I give out of my bounty and I give to all types of people. I give way more and more often to non-narcissists than to narcissists.

        And no, my being a giving person does not perpetuate narcissism. Perhaps you are imagining me to be a codependent in relationships with narcissists. I am not. I am an independent woman who after decades of narc abuse has found happiness within herself and finds giving to others as the best way to share that happiness. As Martha Stewart would say, “It’s a good thing.”

      2. Jenna says:

        Hi M,

        The narc will wound other victims regardless.

        If anything, the doormat, being in the fuel matrix, will save a future victim, because he always has her as a reliable source of fuel, so he need not seek out a new source when he otherwise may need to.

        This is my personal experience. My ex knows he has me to fall back on, so he is not pursuing an ipps, even tho rn i am an niss.

        However, u r entitled to ur opinion. I respect all opinions.

    2. abrokenwing says:

      Well said Windstorm.

      1. M. says:

        Windstorm, I understand you are generally a giving person from your posts here. And no, I haven’t labelled you as a co-dependent or anything else.I avoid labelling, I only follow HG’s labels of Narcs, it helps me understand an uknown terittory.
        I used to be like you and I have changed. Now I know that love is too precious a gift to spend on people who don’t deserve it or appreciate it. I don’t treat everybody the same, because people are not the same. If I give the same gift to all, the gift looses its value. And I insist. People who are forgiving to Narcs, encourage their behaviour. There is too much pain in here and I totally respect that pain. If I have to vote, I vote for the victims. But,as I said, your path of joy is your own and I respect that too.
        Jenna, you are a differrent case. I read what HG wrote to you in another post and I aggree with him. I feel for you, but your confusion is more than obvious. I also know that it is a phase that you have to go through.

        1. Windstorm2 says:

          M
          I respect your opinions and perspective as well. I do feel somewhat differently. My experience has been that by giving away love and joy, it is returned to me many times over. I agree that love is precious, but not that it should be held onto. It’s one of those things that the more you give it away, the more you will get returned to you. Not from narcs, obviously, but from most everyone else. I get enough back from the normals and empaths to be able to share with my narcs too, although it just confuses them. 😄. From my perspective all people and living things are deserving of both love and forgiveness.

          Forgiveness is something that benefits me much more than anyone I choose to forgive. I forgive the pain that I was caused – not the action and certainly not the continued action that may be hurting others. I have no tolerance at all left in me for any type of abuse. I too would vote for victims.

          I feel differently about gifts as well. If someone gifts me with a cheery smile, that smile will brighten my day. It doesn’t matter how many others that person has gifted with that same smile. It also doesn’t matter how many times that person will gift me with that same smile. I will feel happiness and my day be brightened each time. In fact I probably will look forward to seeing this person anticipating the good feeling I will get from their smile. Also when I gift someone with a smile, I get a positive rush of my own. I never think about if they need my smile or if they deserve it or even if they want it.

          Thank you for sharing your perspective with me. It’s always interesting to see and think about others perspectives. I hope you have a very happy Thanksgiving!

      2. Tappan Zee says:

        If anything, the doormat, being in the fuel matrix, will save a future victim, because he always has her as a reliable source of fuel, so he need not seek out a new source when he otherwise may need to.

        ^@jenna. for the common good let us volunteer in the front lines for abuse, to spare the rest? that is neither noble nor sane. it is also not admirable. it is, well i am at a loss for words what it is..

        1. Jenna says:

          Tz,

          I never claimed that it is noble. But it is a consequence of having remained an niss post hoover. It is just a fact.

          Nor did i state that it is admirable. The ones i admire here are those who are narc free. I clearly state that in other threads.

          It is not ‘sane’? This is where i am drawing the line. U are now stepping into name calling, implying that my behavior is insane, which is not cool.

          I respond much better to kind comments, like hg, windstorm, bekah, noname, m, and k have put forth.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I don’t see describing the behaviour as ‘insane’ amounting to name calling.

            Jenna, have you noticed that each time you are missing the thrust of the comments that are being made and instead you are defending against some when they aren’t actually attacks? I wondered if you could see that?

          2. Jenna says:

            I felt that tz is implying that i am insane, due to calling my behavior as ‘not sane’. I felt offended.

            “… for the common good let us volunteer in the front lines for abuse, to spare the rest? that is neither noble nor sane. it is also not admirable. it is, well i am at a loss for words what it is..”

            Tz,
            Again, I never claimed it to be noble nor admirable.

            If ur delivery leans more towards kindness, i am more likely to take ur advice.

            I am extremely sensitive so i really request u to take a different tone with me.

            I have not engaged with nex since posting this. But to be honest, now i feel like it. Because he has not been so harsh with me EVER.

            I have a feeling u will reply with more harsh words. I can’t handle it rn. My panic attack has begun thx to u, and will last for one wk. Let me take more benzos. Yes i am weak, VERY weak. I aspire to be strong like u, because u just ‘did it’. Thank u.

        2. Jenna says:

          Tz,

          My nex texted ‘let’s not create a scene where blocking is required’ because i kept bugging him, that too when he was at work. Yet, he still answered all my texts promptly.

          My nex stated that he does not want to share much abt his personal life due to fear of me exposing him again. It is a valid fear. I stripped him of his major fuel source and he was suicidal for one yr. He had isolated himself out of shame.

          Because i am highly sensitive, i reacted to this. But objectively, it is not such an intense abuse.

          I knew he wud apologize within 3 days. He texted me after only two, to ask how i am. I did not reply to him. I know that if i reply, he will say sorry and comply with me.

          He is usually very polite to me these days. He has learned over time, how sensitive i am. He has learned to reply to my texts promptly, or i become sad. He has learned not to future fake with me. He NEVER does anymore. He has learned not to lead me on. He has learned to be careful with his words. He has learned not to argue with me.

          He is really very sweet overall. Not always, but usually.

          I let go of my anger. I replaced it with understanding. I suggest u let go of all this anger u have too.

        3. jenna says:

          Tz,

          Insanity is a psychosis, eg. schizophrenia, schizoid personality disorder, experiencing hallucinations.

          I suffer frm neurosis – anxiety, panic attacks, depression.

          Pls b aware of the facts b4 calling my behavior ‘not sane’.

          In reference to this comment:

          “^@jenna. for the common good let us volunteer in the front lines for abuse, to spare the rest? that is neither noble nor sane. it is also not admirable. it is, well i am at a loss for words what it is..”

          1. HG Tudor says:

            TZ was not using the word in a clinical sense but rather to make the point that volunteering for abuse is a decision which lacks logic and therefore could indeed be judged, in a colloquial use of the word, to be insane.

          2. jenna says:

            To me, the use of certain words in a colloquial fashion is not acceptable, esp in a forum where many pple r battling neurosis. Suggesting psychosis is uninformed and insensitive. I have never ONCE used the word ‘insane’, ‘sane’, ‘not sane’ colloquially with anybody.

            Hg, i know u understand that the less informed may use it colloquially, but u have never used it urself colloquially due to being well educated, refined, dignified, politically correct, polite, and diplomatic.

            Those who do so demonstrate ignorance.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Ah I see, so how do you explain this comment as not being judgemental when you claim not to judge others and you criticise others for judging you? Might one be having one’s cake and eating it?

        4. jenna says:

          Tz,

          Using sarcasm with me?
          “for the common good let us volunteer in the front lines for abuse, to spare the rest?”
          No thanks to the sarcasm. Not
          effective in my healing process.

          U have a protective order against ur ex? U let the abuse advance to such a level that u needed a protective order? (Trying to make a point only).

          I will use ur words: “that is neither noble nor sane. it is also not admirable. it is, well i am at a loss for words what it is.. ”

          I myself wud NEVER allow any man to abuse me to such an extent that a protective order is required.

          I wud normally not say this to anyone, becoz everyone is duped by the narc to different extents. It was required here to make my point.

        5. jenna says:

          Correction to above:

          IF i reply to him, he will not fully comply with me. He will partially comply with me, in order not to lose me. We will compromise on an option that is suitable for both of us. This is what usually occurs. He has said in the past ‘u r trying, so i shud too.’
          Isn’t he the devil TZ? (sarcasm due to ur usage above).

      3. Sniglet says:

        Jenna – I understand you attended some therapy sessions. Have you ever been diagnosed with something similar to Victim Narcissism and bipolar type 2 disorder which is often misdiagnosed for depression?

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello Sniglet,
          I understand what you mean. I do not know too much about borderline or how this overlaps with NPD. I do recognise though the following of what I have learned here and of what I have read:

          1. Obsession in pointing out being correct.Not being able to drop the point and continuing on and on and on.
          2. Judgemental( now more like personal attacks) finding out always a justification for doing it
          3. Entitlement to deploy those attacks..always under own justification
          4. Pending from trying to be likeable by admiring some with admiring comments and/or playing the victim: victim play
          5. Deflection: trying to derive from the main issues and observations that have been given
          6. Being wounded by criticism.

          I am afraid there is not much introspection or self awareness.

          I may sound “clinical” and cold now.I am just trying to apply what I have learned here when the obvious becomes more obvious.

          1. Jenna says:

            Hi sx,

            “U need to learn to cut corners. U r too much of a perfectionist” said my middle school science teacher. In his class, i received the award for highest grade, but it was a consequence of much hard work and diligence.

            I am overly thorough in everything i do. It started in 4th grade. I remember it clearly. I received a poor grade on a test regarding cloud classification. I was devastated. I had not studied. After that, i began studying very hard for everything. In an educational setting, it proved useful. I graduated high school amongst the top 5 students. My gpa in university was 3.9/4.0.

            This need to be thorough, manifested in a different way after i finished school – ocd. I have an obsessive need to be thorough in cleanliness. The ocd can be debilitating at times. Medication helps, but it does not cure.

            I recognized that the need to be thorough manifests itself in my relationships as well. I must resolve matters thoroughly b4 both parties go to sleep. This is not always easily achieved, since men want time to cool off. When i am not heard, i go to my bedroom and withdraw. I become v sad.

            I am a doormat with friends and relatives, but i am learning not to be. The blog has helped considerably. With my partner, i have never been a doormat. I accept opposing opinions quite easily, so it usually isn’t a prblm. When it comes to judgements tho, i speak up, completely, thoroughly, with supporting evidence, etc.

            Again, i am recognizing this tendency to be thorough, manifesting itself on the blog. I like to answer all questions, adress each and every criticism, accusation, inference, insinuation completely, with supporting evidence.

            I am realizing, it is not necessary. This is a public blog. Everyone will have an opinion. Not everyone will like me. That’s ok. If i am putting myself out there, i shud b willing to deal w that in an easy going manner. Which is what i plan to do moving fwd. Of course, i will speak up, to a certain extent. But after that, i shud stop.

            Thx for reading, sx.

        2. jenna says:

          Hi sniglet,

          Good memory, and nice to see u on this page.

          None of my psychiatrists have diagnosed me as bipolar 2. Upon ur question, i went ahead and took the bipolar mood disorder questionnaire (mdq). I scored v low. I do not experience the hypomanic moods that are present in bipolar 2.

          How was ur move? I hope it went smoothly.

      4. Sniglet says:

        Hi SuperXena, I don’t think you are cold or too clinical. I also recognized your noted points very early on when I first joined this site. The information acquired here from articles, certain comments, combined with my observations of behavior displayed by a friend who is a VN and has BT2D moved me to ask the question above. Sometimes the type of medication taken can affect mental clarity too, unfortunately.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Sniglet, thank you for your comment. Iam not so acquainted with BT2D . It would be interesting to know from your observations with your friend how NPD/VN and BT2D overlap each other. If you feel like expanding and sharing…

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