I See Sanctuary


When I first meet you and I look into your eyes I find a certain sanctuary. Your optimistic eyes seem like paradise to me. I can see the hope, the desire and the adoration burning in your eyes. Be they brown, blue, green or grey I can see the promise of salvation. That is why I try so hard to win you over. I apply everything I can think of to ensure that you stay with me so I can gaze deep into your eyes and drink the delight, trust and admiration that flows from them. You have no idea how much I need to see those things. The more I show you love, affection and how interested I am in you, the greater the radiance that shines towards me and the sanctuary that you have created for me remains in place. It surrounds and protects me, keeping the pain and the hurt at bay. It is a simple formula; I shower you with affection and attention and you return to me that magical protection in the form of how you look at me. The admiring glance across the restaurant table, the wide-eyed desire when we are in bed together, the simmering passion as I undress you and the sheer adoration as you quicken your pace to cross a room or a road to meet me. I need that place of safety and respite. A sanctuary where I know that the whispering, taunting voices will be silenced. A place of salvation where that cold-fingered dread cannot grip my throat and silence my scream of terror. Those draining shades that manifest from a past which I try to consign into oblivion cannot reach me in this place. That is what I hope for and believe every time somebody new enters my life. If I can just keep you sending me the power and the protection arising from those magnificent eyes then I will be safe. I apply my every effort to maintaining that gaze which will keep the darkness and the foul creatures lurking amongst it at bay. Everything I do is geared around making you feel happy, loved and wanted so that you will keep looking at me in that way and preserving my sanctuary.

Yet, no matter how hard I try, notwithstanding every effort I apply to maintaining your state of joy and happiness, you let me down. Each time someone new appears I am given renewed hope that this time the sanctuary will be permanently preserved and each time you fail me. Why do you do this to me when I try so damn hard for you? The burning admiration that you exhibited towards me suddenly dims. The adoration that blazed across the room has lost its intensity. The shining lustre of desire has become dulled. You do this to me and in so doing you turn the key of the gates, lift the heavy bar and push them open. You do this on purpose don’t you? You breach the citadel so that the screeching, moaning and howling tormentors that have gathered beyond its walls are admitted to assault me once again as they try to pull me into the abyss of insanity. The craven creatures slither forward, their mucus-covered tendrils slipping and sliding as they seek me out, determined to coil about me and drag me silent with terror into that place I must not go. Why do you do this to me? What have I done to deserve this treatment? All I have ever done is love you with a perfect love to cause you to generate that sanctuary and now, with no warning or help, you allow the paradise to be violated by those that seek to harm me.

I am left with no option but to fight them. To muster my strength and seek to defeat these agents of darkness by gathering my rage and anger. I must lash out in all directions, often and without restraint in order to stop my tormentors from destroying me. It matters not who is caught up in this frenzy, it is incidental whether you or anyone else finds themselves collateral damage from my necessary defence of my being. I fight and fight and fight, it is exhausting but it must be done. I have to survive until the next promise of sanctuary is identified and drifts my way. There I will find peace and a place to restore my waning strength. Is it you? Perhaps this time the sanctuary will remain intact.


185 thoughts on “I See Sanctuary

  1. lisa says:

    These comments that appear on this blog from time to time of people arguing with each other are pretty unbelievable , it surprises me that you allow these comments HG, again I refer to your tolerance 🙄 And narcissists are apparently stuck emotionally and mentally at certain ages !! Makes you wonder 🤔

  2. Valkyrie says:

    I think narcissists equate taking abuse with love. If you loved me, you would do whatever I want. You will do anything for me.

    You will put up with my abuse. You know I am hurting, and you will let me act it out and you will take it. You will let me yell, lie, cheat and hurt you and you will not leave because you love me.

    The thing is, is that it is difficult to respect someone who has no boundaries. Who always says yes. Who accepts being treated poorly.

    Why do they abuse? Perhaps it is because that is how they were taught how to love. They were abused themselves by someone they love. Conditioned to live with it and bare it because it was what they knew.

    When a narcissist is abusing someone, it hurts not only the other person, but themselves. They are treating someone it a way that does not reflect good character or integrity.

    To show them how to treat someone with respect, we must be compassionate, and we also must show them that saying no to abuse is ok. Allowing someone to yell, manipulate, use, hit and demean you is not love.

    Do not seek revenge. Do not repay evil with evil. Show them compassion, show them love, but do not allow abuse. Show them what they were not allowed to do when they were abused. Show them it is wrong. Show them it is ok to say no. Model what it is to respect others.

    1. Clarece says:

      Why do they abuse? As HG has written, negative fuel, especially from the significant other is the most potent and edifying for them. It is also because they harbor so much pain internally on their own. It is like they reach a point to export that pain to you to, in a way, emotionally hold it and feel what they carry and relieve it from themselves for a time. It probably is their version of love because it is so skewed but in the end it is abuse.

      1. windstorm says:

        I’m not disagreeing with either of you two ladies, but just adding in my personal observations. A lot of the abuse I’ve seen from narcs seemed more of a power rush. Like it was a way to demonstrate their superiority to the person they were abusing. Whether it was physical superiority or mental, I always thought they were doing it because it brought them pleasure. Very much like a cat playing with a mouse. I don’t think cats torment mice because they’re trying to relieve their own internal pain.

        I can feel my Pretzel MnMs excitement when he’s teasing/confusing/annoying people. It’s like an intoxication of power. It’s about the closest he ever gets to real joy. I don’t sense he’s doing it to compensate for some lack in himself, so much as it’s a proof of his own high self-opinion.

      2. Valkyrie says:

        windstorm, I do agree with you that narcissists like control. Dealinv with their internal insecurity, that gets displayed outwardly as overconfidence.

        Cats don’t have complex human emotions or self awareness or the ability to think abstractly. But I know what you mean about behavior being instinctual.

        I wonder how much of narcissistic behavior is nuture vs nature. There is a genetic component to some narcissists. Like the tendency towards alcoholism or substance abuse.

        I think awareness is key. Awareness for narcissists and friends and family. Can some of the behaviors be treated?

        People with oppositional defiant disorder often show destructive and even violent reactions. But there has been some success in reducing some of the behaviors through compassionate care.

        How do we help those with mood disorders?

        I do not think people should stay in abusive relationships and GOSO is a way to protect yourself and demonstrate that abuse is not ok.

    2. some chick says:


      I think you are on to something here. This really resonated with me..

      “….You will put up with my abuse. You know I am hurting, and you will let me act it out and you will take it. You will let me yell, lie, cheat and hurt you and you will not leave because you love me….”

      One time the nex was having one of his “talks” with me, he was acting extremely aggressive and downright mean. I tried to explain how his words were hurtful. He proceeded to justify it because >> I was just “overly sensitive” and if he had been talking to a friend, THEY would understand and just brush it off.

      1. Valkyrie says:

        Hi some chick, ☺ Telling you, you are oversensitive is a deflection.

        HG, do narcissists do this to put blame on the victim and get them off topic?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes, it is part of the Twin Lines of the Narcissist’s Defence.

          1. some chick says:

            Thank you HG, I shall read that one again.

            Thank you Valkyrie! XO I don’t know what it is with me. I can look back at the relationship and easily spot all the red flags waving brightly.
            But when entering a relationship: I’m totally colorblind. I continually fall for these manipulations.
            “Jump off a cliff? Yeah sure honey.. whatever you want.”…


  3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    I used to take your breath away
    I used to make your laugh about anything
    I used to be your getaway
    Your getaway, your dream
    I was everything you needed

    You used to lean your eyes on me
    You used to open up and share your world
    You used to loose yourself in me
    Let the hours pass all running by so fast but now

    What I’m doing
    I don’t know what I’m doing

    Cause I don’t even feel it
    Bodies growing colder with the distance now
    And I don’t even mean it
    Got my hands all over you, but not a sound
    I’m always so in love, all in
    Til I start going numb thinking
    Thought you’d make me feel it
    Thought that I’d be different this time around
    This time around

    We started out as lonely hearts
    We started with a promise built on highs
    You said I was the missing part
    Looked into my eyes said
    “You’re my fix for life”, but now

    What I’m doing
    I don’t know, what I’m doing

    Cause I don’t even feel it
    Bodies growing colder with the distance now
    And I don’t even mean it
    Got my hands all over you, but not a sound
    I’m always so in love, all in
    Til I start going numb thinking
    Thought you’d make me feel it
    Thought that I’d be different this time around
    This time around


  4. Valkyrie says:

    HG, if you haven’t made an HG Tudor fairy tale about the narc having Midas touch, I would love to see one.

    Turning an appliance into gold could render them “useless”.


  5. Valkyrie says:

    Does the narcissist understand that I want the same thing?

    Love, protection, comfort, excitement.

    I want someone who looks at me like he has never had or seen anything more beautiful.

    I want someone to make me feel safe and that he will never leave.

    I want someone’s touch to make me feel high, like we both fulfill each other’s needs, a knowing, but with some surprises so I don’t get bored.

    I want someone to be looking out for and attending to every need and it makes him happy to do so, he likes to care for me.

    Makes me soup and grilled cheese when I am sick.

    Someone who gets my jokes and likes what I like.

    Empathizes on bad days and cheers me up. Puts up with my irritable moods.

    Someone who will reassure me of his love every day and be honest, true and faithful. He will want no one else but me ever.

    Heck yeah I want those things.

    But what I have is someone who hugs me when I cry. Someone who encouraged and supported me going back to school. Someone who says I love you every day and kisses me good morning and good night. He fixes my car and takes out the trash. He is faithful. He is mine. I wanted a fantasy. A romance novel.

    But what I have is real. He is not smoke and mirrors. His touch does not turn things to gold.

    He is earth. He is sky. He is more. He is beautiful. He is love.

  6. Harvard (TMM) says:

    I must weigh in here. I still need to read this whole thread….but…without fully doing so be advised I may revise the following at a later point:

    I think Dr. Q has points of validity. I will refer to Cockwaffle on this as HG is on Olympus and not to be touched. (genuflecting)

    Cockwaffle is wealthy. He’s younger than I am. He’s decent looking. At worst he’s an Upper-Middle, and as I learn I do feel he’s in the Elite range. His ex wife is a bit of a southern, conservative, self-professed ‘red-neck’ and doesn’t follow him on intellect and his passions/interests. She’s over 6′ tall, and a year or so older than I am. He has a type.

    She’s also brash, outspoken, unfiltered, and hell on wheels. They were married 13 years and have a son. He still pursues her, regularly. She thinks he’s a dead loss. She does, however, mother him. He was in his 20’s when they got together— and their marriage was chaos. She got pregnant on the first encounter— go figure. Potent shit, Cockwaffle.

    She told me, during several of our conversations- she thought I was the best thing for Cwaff. Smart, funny, sweet, intelligent, similar passions/pursuits, and enough like her to keep him interested- yet not so much as to repeat their issues. She knows I put up with months of his antics before telling him to sod off when I’d had enough.

    I can see Dr Q’s thinking that for the right person- the balance MIGHT come about. Doesn’t mean it would for sure- but the circumstances might exist.

    I confess I worry about the hoover. When Cwaff comes down from either the rage or the wounding I inflicted— will he seek me out as I was- by his account and his ex wife’s…..”the full package” (his words, not mine) and was that narc flattery or a moment of reality amongst the smoke and mirrors. Will he come back ’round? I don’t know.

    Could I be with him or someone like him? Probably. He’s not my first Narc Rodeo. I can deal with a lot of it- for the reasons Dr. Q says: I’m strong, independent, and won’t put up with it if boundaries are breached. What shot me out with Cwaff…he uses money to control. His ex is destitute without him. His other conquests are usually financially vulnerable, younger, freshly divorced, etc. I’m not. I don’t NEED him. I don’t need a damn thing from him. I just wanted his company, his intellect, and yes, his body….but I did want all of him….and I did know he wasn’t perfect. But I can walk away at any time, and just work through my own issues. I think I’m the only one he’s seeing that can say that. Maybe not.

    My boundaries were the lies. Screw around- but be honest about it. Be an idiot, but own it. The pregnancy/twins are a secondary facet- again, raised 2 mostly alone, so this is par for the course on my parenting ability….but could I co-parent with him? Possibly. We were co-parenting our teenagers very well- his son loved me. We communicated about the kids flawlesssly. Addressed their issues with teamwork and communication. Lavished on them both. NO ISSUES CO-PARENTING our existing kids. But, my daughter….didn’t like Cwaff, that’s more what he does to me with his crap, than to her— she’s protective.

    I think HG and his kind could have something with the right person- but it would be challenging, wrenching, and difficult for both. The question always is….would either party WANT to…and to put in for all that entails? Nobody can answer that for anyone else.

    I’ll always love Cockwaffle. But I sure as shit won’t put up with his crap.

    1. Valkyrie says:

      Harvard (TMM), understand the impulse to compromise. I think sometimes empaths have a lock and key mentality. We think we are the cure to what ails. An emotional salve. The love they so desperately crave. Our immense compassion and strong backbone fit us to the task.

      But, the abuse is real. As much as I want to help someone or be with them, I will not be used, lied to and cheated on. I will not be demeaned and deceived and ignored. I always ask myself, would I want my mother to be with someone who treated her the way I got treated? The answer is a resounding no. Why would I want any less for myself?

  7. lisa says:

    I really don’t understand why people go on this blog to criticise HG’s work or doubt his work, no one is forced to read this stuff. I actually think his tolerance and patience with this blog is unbelievable even for a normal person ha ha. Just don’t read his work !!!!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hear, hear!

      1. Sarah says:

        HG – There is an old saying “never give a sword to a man who can’t dance” unfortunately sometimes I think that applies here.

    2. Sarah says:

      Well said Lisa.
      There is no fascade here.
      HG is the master and I am happy to be his apprentice. If we trusted ourselves to govern our behaviour without his support we wouldn’t be visiting this site repeatedly.
      To the nay-sayers, I say this….Save your self appointed black belts in narcissism for the real grading – your own lives! Come here ready to reflect and to learn with an open mind. Get the facts first and then you can distort them however you like.

  8. lisa says:

    The delusions of NPD, the magical person is not out there , just as you described Strawberry Ice Cream , the inability to sustain attraction and interest is the narcissists lot in life . They can delude themselves but it is just another part of their facade . I don’t know what the ratio statistically is of narcs capable of the Golden Periods i read about but i would say there are a lot more Bronze Periods out there . Empaths being grateful for crumbs or someone just doing what should be considered normal by people with higher self esteems . Nobody is going to change someone with NPD anymore than somebody is going to change someone with Autism or Bi Polar or any other mental health problem . I am not comparing those things by the way , just saying .

  9. kiki says:

    HG I still cannot believe the leaps and bounds I have come on since consulting with you , and it was only by email.
    I no longer give a damn about the narc. His behaviour once had me devastated , now I just roll my eyes ,yawn and move onto something more interesting. My urges to contact him have shrivelled away, I honestly could not care less what he thinks anymore .What we had is fading away at a speed I never thought possible.

    I go hours ,days without a thought of the past .When I do think of it I shudder , I don’t long for the golden period.
    I can no longer be hurt or shocked because you pinpoint those manipulation tactics so well. .

    I am not falling for Hoovers , therefore protecting myself.
    You have truly exposed that vile man for what he is .

    Thank you soooo much.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome and well done.

  10. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


    Here is some poetry for ya…

    You’ve read the story of Jesse James
    of how he lived and died.
    If you’re still in need;
    of something to read,
    here’s the story of Bonnie and Clyde.

    Now Bonnie and Clyde are the Barrow gang
    I’m sure you all have read.
    how they rob and steal;
    and those who squeal,
    are usually found dying or dead.

    There’s lots of untruths to these write-ups;
    they’re not as ruthless as that.
    their nature is raw;
    they hate all the law,
    the stool pidgeons, spotters and rats.

    They call them cold-blooded killers
    they say they are heartless and mean.
    But I say this with pride
    that I once knew Clyde,
    when he was honest and upright and clean.

    But the law fooled around;
    kept taking him down,
    and locking him up in a cell.
    Till he said to me;
    ‘I’ll never be free,
    so I’ll meet a few of them in hell’

    The road was so dimly lighted
    there were no highway signs to guide.
    But they made up their minds;
    if all roads were blind,
    they wouldn’t give up till they died.

    The road gets dimmer and dimmer
    sometimes you can hardly see.
    But it’s fight man to man
    and do all you can,
    for they know they can never be free.

    From heart-break some people have suffered
    from weariness some people have died.
    But take it all in all;
    our troubles are small,
    till we get like Bonnie and Clyde.

    If a policeman is killed in Dallas
    and they have no clue or guide.
    If they can’t find a fiend,
    they just wipe their slate clean
    and hang it on Bonnie and Clyde.

    There’s two crimes committed in America
    not accredited to the Barrow mob.
    They had no hand;
    in the kidnap demand,
    nor the Kansas City Depot job.

    A newsboy once said to his buddy;
    ‘I wish old Clyde would get jumped.
    In these awfull hard times;
    we’d make a few dimes,
    if five or six cops would get bumped’

    The police haven’t got the report yet
    but Clyde called me up today.
    He said,’Don’t start any fights;
    we aren’t working nights,
    we’re joining the NRA.’

    From Irving to West Dallas viaduct
    is known as the Great Divide.
    Where the women are kin;
    and the men are men,
    and they won’t ‘stool’ on Bonnie and Clyde.

    If they try to act like citizens
    and rent them a nice little flat.
    About the third night;
    they’re invited to fight,
    by a sub-gun’s rat-tat-tat.

    They don’t think they’re too smart or desperate
    they know that the law always wins.
    They’ve been shot at before;
    but they do not ignore,
    that death is the wages of sin.

    Some day they’ll go down together
    they’ll bury them side by side.
    To few it’ll be grief,
    to the law a relief
    but it’s death for Bonnie and Clyde.
    -Bonnie Parker

    1. E. B. says:

      Hello Dr. Q,

      Nice to see you here again. Hope you are doing well.
      Just wanted to let you know that after you gave me some helpful hints back in December as to what to look into (DR), these symptoms disappeared. I would be able to deal with them if they were to come back some day. Thank you so much for your help, Dr. Q.!!

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I’m so happy o helped in some way!

        Sending you so much love ♥️

        1. E. B. says:

          Yes, you helped me a lot, Dr. Q. <>

  11. Iko Flugel says:

    I believe the term “HOPE” is a key here. I just saw an interview where the guy explained that actually the hope is the source of rage, disappointment and anger. If we (both Narcs and Empaths) can diminish the hope and unrealistic expectations about our love life, things can be much better. In the love-bombing stage the narcissist does exactly this: he increases strongly the hope for love in the empath’s heart. That’s why the disappointment in the devaluation stage hurts so much. I believe it goes the same vice versa, right?
    I remember when a Great Narc was asked why his victim returns to him when hoovered, he answered “Because HOPE dies last.”
    Again the solution: diminish hope/expectations.

    1. DebbieWolf says:

      IKo Flugel

      I completely get what you’re saying about diminishing hope and expectations.
      it does help.. temporarily.

      But I think a life without hope for positive people is like having a personality transplant and not possible.

      I think it is more about discernment than anything else.

      Placing hope and having hope in the right places not in the wrong ones.

      Learning is so important as we know that’s why we are here.

      Let our graduation qualification be discernment.. as opposed to giving up hope.

      Hope is afterall a positive way of living, hoping for positive outcomes is a way of aiming for them and achieving them and making them happen but it is the discernment that enables us where to place the Hope accordingly and and act on it.

      This all reminds me of that famous prayer.

      God give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.. the courage to change the things I can… the wisdom to know the difference.

      That doesn’t have to be a Prayer if you are not religious it can be a mantra… a self improvement aim if you’d prefer to think of it that way.

      Aim for discernment.

      Learn where the differences are and apply that difference… without having to kill a very good positive quality.

      I’ve said this before a million times that even Nelson Mandela said to us we should not have to dim what we are to make others feel better… we can adapt this to mean amongst other things.. do not dim hope because there are those who have none and then punish you for having it.

      Use hope like a currency spend it wisely.
      There is no need to close your account down just because other people haven’t got any currency.

      Just use your own spending plan and spend your hope in the correct places.

      We have all fucked up on our spending, all we need to do is improve, we don’t have to throw our currency in the bin.

      These are ust some thoughts I had…

      1. DebbieWolf says:

        To add to my comments about hope..
        Let us just in general terms rather than diminishing our best qualities, attributes and traits.. let us be more… let us be bigger, let us get better at applying them..Grow them.

        Let us not change who we are for the worst by becoming flatter and dulled down, worse off..

        The narcissist targeted us because we were strong because we had wonderful attributes because we have good qualities..

        There is no dampening down, changing who we are just because they’ve drained and abused us… robbed us of some of our essence and it harmed us.. so understandably we temporarily fall.

        That’s temporarily Buster..
        (Buster being any narcissist).

        We must learn and then we must get back up bigger than we were, stronger than we were.. celebrating all of the things that we were, all of the things that we now are, all of the things that we will become, no matter what the narcissist wants or or doesn’t want!!.

        We do not diminish what we are!

        We learn discernment.
        that’s what we do and then we apply it.

        We do not walk around as an empty shell and empty husk!
        Perhaps we do temporarily because they made us ill!..

        Now listen.. this is temporary…
        it will take different people different amounts of time and slightly different methods.

        Nevertheless aim for discernment get it under your belt and stand the fuck up.. look them in the eye and walk tall with your wonderful attributes.

        Do not under any circumstance allow then to leave you in the mud on a permanent basis i.e. no hope in life, positivity gone, a skewed view on everything and everyone in a detrimental manner. Seeing the worst and not the best on every single occasion?? !

        No. making you into a miserable shell of your former self practically of no use to yourself never mind anybody else… getting you into a position where you think that this is what life is all about when it is not!!!!

        There will always be someone to give you a helping hand if you reach out just to help you back on your feet.. even here HG the most unlikely source of all…. psychopathic narcissist..Yet as a by-product of this enjoyment of writing he gets, he then gets people back up on their feet!!
        and he admits he doesn’t care…
        yet here is a resource to help!!

        So what is necessary is ditching all this diminishing scenario, carry on being fantastic and use the tools necessary to help you stay being all the wonderful things that you already are ….when the chips are down use the correct tools and carry on.

        No one can do the work for anyone we have to do that ourselves (we all know that I’m not going to be patronising in saying so) but I am saying do not diminish yourself.


        Do not shine less out of fear..
        or anything else. Fuck this diminishing malarkey.

        Sharper Discernment is all you need.. and your winning smile.. don’t forget about that.

        No smirks for us.. we positively smile and we fucking glow.. and we will continue to do so, damn it!

    2. WiserNow says:

      Iko Flugel,

      That is an interesting point you make about hope. Before the empathic person gains awareness and logical thinking, they do have hope and this hope keeps on existing until their emotions are so depleted or they are so badly abused that they “awaken”.

      I think shame also has something to do with the whole dynamic. The narcissist’s facade is crucial and needs to hide the shameful self they can’t bear for the world to see. It’s a form of shame that’s so toxic they need to keep it hidden even from themselves.

  12. Nika- Survival says:

    I wish we did not let you down. Then, both sides could be happy, forever.

  13. WiserNow says:

    “You have no idea how much I need to see those things.”

    Hope, admiration, delight, love, trust.

    Do you need to see them in another so much because they are biologically absent in your own self?

    Or do you need to see them so that, for a fleeting time at least, you can sense the same inner resources that you have (but in smaller quantities) that are so difficult to access and are always at risk of being threatened by undercurrents of dark thoughts and fears?

    I am very much looking forward to reading the impending book about the creature.

  14. Christine says:

    I’m not a “sanctuary.” I’m a person. I exist for myself. I want equitable relationships, and have no interest in attempting to save anyone from themselves. There’s too much that needs doing in the world for anyone to be throwing their energy into a black hole.

    I’m generally indifferent to narcs. They can’t help what they are. I do get angry with people who try to save them though.

    1. Mercy says:

      Christine, I never understand the save mentality either. I just never got the wounded dog vibe from him. He was such a alpha male always wanting control. I was too busy saving myself from the black hole.

    2. WriteItOut says:

      Christine, yes. They don’t deserve all this emotional energy when they’re just playing a sick game. I think anyone who’s continually drawn into relationships with narcissists needs to be in therapy to untangle why they feel such a strong attraction to them. When we crave what hurts us, it’s time to change ourselves.

  15. lisa says:

    HG, what is your post called please , that talks about when the narcissist presents a certain image after a break up , like pictures or whatever to show what a great time they are having , thanks

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Relationship Bulletin.

      1. lisa says:

        Thanks HG, but there’s another one , i think you talk about them pretending they are so happy but it’s a facade or something ? It’s an act

        1. E. B. says:

          Hi Lisa,
          When you say there is another one, could it be “Have You Seen Who is With”?

      2. Kathy Mor says:

        I read “Getting away with it”, it may be the one Lisa is referring to.

  16. Michelle says:

    My mother was very narcissistic, if not an outright narcissist. She saw some variety of “sanctuary” in a lot of places and was perpetually let down by everyone and everything. New jobs didn’t offer her the respect and prestige she wanted. New people didn’t end up being her “real” friends. She didn’t win contests when it felt like a sure thing. As a kid I could never quite figure out why her expectations for everything were so incredibly high. She thought every day was going to be her red letter day.

    One of the first things I learned about my recent narc friend upon meeting him was that he just “couldn’t find the right girl.” My immediate thought was that someone his age — approaching middle age — who is disappointed by every single woman he meets must also have such high expectations that no real human could meet them. Turns out I was right. He thinks that relationships should just be “fun,” not work.

    There is something about the narcissistic sense of entitlement that tells these individuals that they should not have to deal with the normal bumps in the road that the rest of us tolerate as normal and expected. It’s more black and white thinking.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Michelle
      Its funny, when I was reading about your mother being positive that she would win contests and that every day was going to be her red letter day, I was struck by how many people unaware that they are dealing with a narc would see that as being positive or goal oriented instead of entitled. God forbid you should point out a flaw or suggest a fail safe or plan B. You are regarded as not just cautious and practical but as negative and wanting to throw a wet blanket over their ideas. Narcs need their fantasy of a perfect outcome, and when that is not borne out it is always the fault of others failing to execute to their exact standards, whereas normals will investigate many avenues to ensure a successful outcome. I find this a good gauge especially when you are dealing with them in business.

    2. lisa says:

      it’s because they have the mental and emotional capacity of adolescents if not younger in some cases.

      1. wissh says:

        I’ve been fascinated by that too because my exnarc is so brilliant that it freaked me out when he would make apparently off the cuff comments that were so sophomoric. I get it now, wish I’d had a clue then.

        1. lisa says:

          Hi Wissh, yes my ex appears to have no awareness of how dumb he is , but points out other people that are dumber than him , which is like finding a needle in a haystack . They appear to be lacking the cringe factor. Of course it’s across the board and there are narcissists that are extremely academic probably genius narcs . But their emotional intelligence is adolescent. There was really nothing attractive about my ex on every level which makes me question my own sanity !!

  17. Claudia says:

    This is how my Special Little Narcissist sees it. He says that “he feels hurt by every woman who loves him” and that’s why he “pushes them away” and “doesn’t let them get too close.” He literally thinks it is the failing of the girl like, every time, so his brutal devaluation and discard behaviors are just his way of reacting to “being hurt.” He’s also recently moved back in with his mother.
    Face palm.

  18. merrymagenta says:

    It reminded me of The Hunger by Whitley Strieber.

  19. Kathy Mor says:


    “But you didn’t have to cut me off
    Make out like it never happened and that we were nothing…”

  20. Mercy says:

    Another dangerous article to read for the empath. Sad but breathtaking.

  21. Leslie says:

    You are your own enemy. You project yourself onto us to fight and torment yourself because you know you are fraudulent.

    Eckart Tolle talks all about you and your creature. It was like reading you and your words only from a healthy person.

    1. Cindy says:

      But Leslie, we all know that the narc doesn’t KNOW he’s being deceitful or fraudulent. I think their words sound as if they come from healthy people because that’s who they mimic all their lives.
      I’m not sympathizing with the narc, just trying to understand what goes through their head.

      1. lisa says:

        Sorry I don’t know who made this comment Cindy or Leslie? What did you mean Eckhart Tolle speaks about this ? Thank you

      2. E. B. says:

        Hi Cindy,
        re “…we all know that the narc doesn’t KNOW he’s being deceitful or fraudulent.”
        Some of them know, others do not. Some are more aware than others.

  22. tigerchelle78 says:

    Reading this really gets to me, and makes me want to reach out to them (my empath side), and tell them:

    “Its going to be OK. I know what you need. I am happy to provide this for you and for as long as you need me to. I’ll always love you no matter what. I’ll never ever leave you not until I die. And whatever you need to do to survive, I understand. I just want you to feel safe.”

    Isn’t that just crazy?! Am I the only person that feels that?
    I don’t show this side to me often, but it is there especially when I’m emotional like I am today. I have to hold it back, because its too much. I care way too much and I have the capacity to love so much it frightens me. But I hold it back. I have to.

    1. WriteItOut says:

      Why do you think that pain = love? Why do you think that someone who would hurt you so badly deserves your devotion?

      Those are the things you need to figure out. I’m a very empathetic person but I don’t give that energy to narcissists. Not being able to recognize them for who they are is clouding your judgement.

      1. tigerchelle78 says:


        Because for most of my life that’s all I was taught love was.

        Love was abuse, manipulation, pain, punches, neglect, abandonment, psychological and mental games, loss, disappointment, emotional torture, and your freakin’ worst nightmare. It was being scared to go to bed and sleep every night. It was being scared to come home. It was never knowing what would happen next or the mood would be next. (Oh I’m now an expert on reading people’s moods even if they try to hide their feelings.)
        It was waking up with a sickening dread, it was severe depression, wanting to die, but learning to survive. It was knowing the local police force by first names and them taking you where you needed to go and being your only protection. It was feeling threatened. It was having an imaginary mother and father in your head, and pretending they loved you. It was having to pretend, and act. Becoming an expert in fitting in or how to be whatever a person needs. It was having nearly every friend at school turn to you as a therapist. It was adapting, becoming a chameleon, and overcoming obstacles. It was having to be a surrogate wife and a surrogate mother to your brothers. It was having no female mother to relate to and talk to because she was dead. It was having NO choice. It was not knowing who you are. It was being controlled, stalked, photographed and everything could and would be used against you. It was pressure. It was wanting to run away often, going from relationship to relationship, and person to person, and escaping, being homeless, being locked out, having your stuff taken, stolen, having nobody who gave a @#$%. It was only knowing lies and deceit and not knowing what to believe, or who to believe. It was finding out horrible things and trying to solve puzzles. It was feeling crushed and broken and having no way out. It was feeling helpless and hopeless. It was tears and self-harm. It was learn to trust nobody.

        Do you think that’s why my judgement may be a little somewhat cloudy at times?!

        1. WriteItOut says:

          I’m sorry you’ve endured all of that, Chelle.

          1. tigerchelle78 says:

            The only thing that has kept me going sometimes is that through all that bad, something good can come through it all. I know many here have also suffered greatly. My experiences can help me to empathize and be compassionate to others. Although I have my personality and mood disorders which are unfortunately the result of abuse and a traumatic past, I try hard to help others whenever I can.

      2. Getting There says:

        This is one of the issues I am trying to fix. I even joked with a friend recently that I would not be interested in a really nice guy because he isn’t a narcissist. The sad part is that it really isn’t as much a joke as much as I want it to be. I would love to fall in love with a great guy who loves me for me. Too bad I continue to hold to loyalty and hold on to hope and love for those who do not. My recent experience left me constantly confused and constantly broken hearted, but guess who texted him this weekend to clarify my behavior so he knows I care and then believed his “I will always…” I would love to blame naivity but my mind sees what my heart won’t accept.
        I watched my parents act not loving (to be mild) to each other and then say “I love you” without resolution. It would be easy to point to that for why I do it, but I know there is more to it and me than that. Thankfully I have my next therapy appointment soon.

        I have to say, WriteItOut, that I am impressed with your forgiveness of your husband and also learning about narcissism to understand more. I know it couldn’t have been easy.

        1. WriteItOut says:

          There are so many things we all do in life that require forgiveness. There is more than one way to betray someone. My husband has done everything he needed to for us to rebuild our marriage, as have I.

          My father was a malignant narcissist. Even so it can take a long time to recognize that and to change yourself so that you aren’t attracted to them. You can do it.

      3. Getting There says:

        That is very true, WriteItOut! There are many ways to betray someone other than a physical relationship with another. That’s great that both of you worked on your relationship! I like happy- ever- afters.
        Thank you for the encouragement. I have a child to do it for or forget it all together. I refuse to bring him from the frying pan to the fire (or however the saying goes).

    2. K says:

      This comment explains how the narcissist views all appliances.

      HG Tudor
      AUGUST 27, 2018 AT 16:35
      All appliances are there to be manipulated, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, religion etc. We are equal opportunity manipulators.


      1. tigerchelle78 says:


        Thank you, you are like the index in here….

        1. K says:

          You are welcome tigerchelle78
          HG’s comments provide such amazing clarity that it facilitates understanding with stunning celerity, so I try to help out the reader by sharing them when possible.

  23. saskia says:

    It must be tiresome, you say exhausting. You say you never lose your firm grip on your romantic prospects once they become ensnared, ’til death, yet you see them come and go, face after face after face, an endless cycle, no matter how perfect a sanctuary they seem to be in the beginning. And every time, regardless of how infatuated you are, you know how that golden chapter is going to end, again.

    It reminded me of this saying “a gilded cage is still a cage”.

    1. tigerchelle78 says:


      But as one cycle ends or is coming to a close, they are beginning another one, and its out with the old, in with the new.
      Its almost like rebounding constantly. The next one makes you forget the other.
      Maybe in their heads, its like a reset button each time. And in actual fact, they are not then having to deal with any kind of feeling of loss at all because they have a new one coming in, and are by now hoovering the old one. There is nothing like distraction, to keep you from feeling pain/loss. Your mind is occupied. We all use it to an extent. It works well.
      But they use one relationship to get over another in a sense and therefore do not feel anything.

      They have to keep moving forward. They can’t stop. If they stop, badness would ensue…..they would start to think, start to feel even. They can’t let that happen! Those bad unpleasant feelings must be held back and kept at bay. (This is the creature)

      If I’m not right then please correct me HG.

  24. Pale Horse says:


  25. Anonymous says:

    Beautifully written article

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  26. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    You weren’t yourself when you entered into the relationship and behaved in a way that you thought would get their love and acceptance. No one could keep that act up forever so eventually the shit storm happens because you are not what this person thought they signed up for. You also didn’t like them for who they were anyway – you projected your own ideal image onto them. When the infatuation ends you start to realize the person is in fact a person with flaws. During this time period the restlessness begins and the boredom sets in.

    Be yourself and accept who you are – that you are different – and that’s okay. Stop trying to be someone you’re not. Be with someone who accepts you for you and knows how to handle you….

    It is important to set realistic standards – infatuation does not last forever. The person will have flaws – you have to weigh the good and the bad. You will never have that constant high so things aren’t as intense but you can have fluctuations of that with security and someone you can depend on who understands you and has your back.

    People will let you down – it matters who is there for you the most and during the most important times.

    Relationships involve reciprocity – you give and receive….- it’s not just ONE way

    If you adjust some of your behaviors (not who you are) that would help the situation so you don’t push the other person away and damage the relationship

    Try being with someone you admire and respect in some way that maybe you see a little bit of yourself in some way but ultimately compliments you…

    There are a few psychopaths (who are open about what htey are ) out there that have somewhat functional relationships because the other person compliments them and can deal with their shit…ultimately these individuals are a bit “different” themselves….

    1. Twilight says:

      Dr. HQ

      What would be your definition of “different “?

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        He needs to be with someone he respects on some level. I also believe he would need to be someone who is extraverted, accepting, understanding, reflective, communicative, but doesn’t let him walk all over her. This chick needs a serious backbone. He thinks he wants someone who is all about “yes” and lets him do whatever he wants but he doesn’t. He would have no respect for her and grow bored quickly. This person would need to be dependable and reliable yet have a mix of unpredictability to keep him on his toes. Too much consistency in his woman’s reactions would lead to once again boredom. I actually think someone who was a little quirky and out there would suit him best. This person can’t be an overly anxious person because they will lose their shit being with him. This person would need to be cooperative and goes with the flow but on matters she gives a shit about she stands up for herself and won’t back down. This person is essentially a good girl with edge – a bit rebellious.

        The right woman would walk away from him if he pulled some wacked-out shit. Early on in the relationship boundaries and expectations need to be defined, clarified and explained as well as the consequences for violating these boundaries. If at any point he decides to breach these bounds the consequence(s) that was explained will immediately follow. There can be no hesitation and no letting shit slide. This person needs to have a backbone. If he decides to knowingly push bounds despite the consequences being explained to him he knew exactly what he was signing up for and he can only have himself to blame for the relationship that he destroyed. Of course he will then try and intellectualize and rationalize how it wasn’t his fault but it all doesn’t matter. If he wants what he says he wants he will put his own ass in check and realize that he can’t push certain buttons. If he has the self control he claims to have then he will realize he needs to modify certain behaviors in order to preserve that something special he has with this person and destroying it would essentially be destroying himself. If he believes the person is worth it or what to be gained is worth it…he will control himself. He needs alternative/replacement behaviors and there will be a learning curve so this individual needs to take that into consideration. This person will need to be pretty tough in many ways and handle certain behaviors that other people can’t. This person needs to gain from her interaction with him as well.

        No one will save him. He knows this inside. He needs to save himself from…himself. A person is not the answer. A person can provide companionship and acceptance and have his back in a meaningful way. I do believe he craves narcissistic supply to validate that he is worth something – that ideal construct he is in his mind because he has been taught his whole life that being who he is …is not good enough and to be loved you need to be what someone else deems lovable. Honestly, I wish I could wake him the fuck up – smack the shit out of him and be like listen HG you’re a fucking psychopath lol….you are like 1% of the damn population- yeah you are fucking special and different – science supports this – now stop pretending to be something you’re not because what you are is so much more interesting (and rare technically lol) then who you pretend to be.

        HG lemme reality check you..you are NOT a robot. You do have feelings – not the same range that other people have but you do. You can do so many things that typical people are incapable of because of what you are. The world needs people like you. Listen, no one is perfect and why the fuck would you want to be? That would be so boring. You have no identity? I actually think you have more of an identity than you think you do. If you would stop thinking about what other people would find lovable, amazing, and/or acceptable and let yourself just ….be….. in a moment…that would do wonders for you.

        You are never going to just fit in and a lot of people are not going to understand you. Fuck em. It sucks but its a reality some of us outliers have to face. Don’t throw away the people who do have the ability to understand you and accept you. These people are NOT disposable. The only person you hurt when you hurt them…is yourself.

        Bottom line…you are special…fucking deal with it.

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Essentially an strong intelligent empathetic individual with a backbone. Someone off-beat that has as much cognitive empathy as they do emotional empathy. Both of their interests need to be aligned and expectations as well as boundaries and the consequences that would follow would be CLEARLY explained. If HG were to then push these limits the consequence would have to immediately follow – NO HESITATION. He wouldn’t respect someone who just threatens and doesn’t follow through. A better match for him would be someone who would walk away when their boundaries have been pushed. This person would need to be able to tolerate his temperament and know how to handle him. This person would need to be an excellent communicator. I imagine he would be best suited for a bonnie and clyde type of relationship.

        1. Twilight says:

          Dr. HQ

          I am curious, the impression I get, you believe you would be a match, or someone like you.
          Maybe I am wrong, I have had this feeling when you first came here. Nothing wrong with it.

        2. DebbieWolf says:


          What you’re presenting sounds all very logical.. and unrealistic with regards to handling HG.

          None of what you present takes into account all of the contrary different manipulations which are done for gratification and satisfaction etc silly things like sugar last week in our tea not this week, sleep with the window open that’s the way it has to be done forever and then the next week close that Damned fucking window.. what do you think you are doing leaving it open.. these just the small
          things.. not big important things that could occur and do.

          And a million other things that we’ve read about and he has explained.

          Aside from every single thing said or written or theorised about… there is one final thing to know ..it is that nobody handles HG..

          No one.
          He is the doer not the done to.
          I am usually horrified at the various tales and different stories as to what he gets up to.
          ….and it is not one of those cases where like our mothers told us we let ‘them’ think it’s their idea (anything) but really it is our idea..

          None of this will ever apply to HG.
          Nobody will ever be ahead of him.

          I understand what you mean about somebody needs to understand his temperament etc but it is not about understanding in the final analysis as far as I’m concerned.. in my opinion that is.

          I know you’re the doctor and I’m not anybody as such in the mental health arena, but at the end of the day HG is what he is, that’s how it’s going to be, he will evolve.. all forces of nature do.

          But nobody will ever “handle” HG, he’s the alpha male in all situations.

          I just wanted to pass my opinion on this.

        3. saskia says:

          Dr HQ,

          in my view, you are creating a fantasy image here, a very sanctuary in itself. No woman, no man, no human being could possibly meet those criteria you are combining as ‘perfect’ match for the narcissist. That is an illusion in itself.

          I reckon ‘the’ narcissist, whether HG himself or other narcissists, in the range of greater and elite, is already targeting the very ‘class’ of women who possess those qualities you emphasize and collect here. They might be extremely witty, overly charming themselves, very attractive, self-confident, bold, successful in whatever field are they are working in, high achievers and so on. I do not believe they are weak in any sense or that they do not have a strong backbone. They might be open to ‘unconventional relationships’, adventures, intellectual stimulation and so forth. They might tick every box on the list of traits the narcissist requires (except that they do not know ‘what’ they are dealing with) and every box on the list you present there.

          They might even be a real challenge to the narcissist in the beginning – so, again, ‘A class’ partners and fuel in the narcissist’s eyes. Even if one of those strong and attractive women knew about NPD from the beginning or even realized in the slightest what to expect –I guess they would still brush this knowledge off or intellectualize and minimize the actual impact (perhaps believing they can ‘just handle’ it). If so, that would be very human.

          You talk about possible solutions such as setting boundaries and consequences that should follow if those boundaries are being busted. The narcissist would still be busting those very boundaries he might have agreed on for the sake of appearance, overtly or covertly pushing and chopping away at those very limits you might think the both of you have agreed on earlier.

          He – or she – is bound to do this due to his or her true nature and yes, of course, we all do know that. He would still seek his fuel elsewhere whenever his (everchanging) demands and needs are not being met, despite having a partner ticking all those boxes. Consider a relationship with all those ups and downs that are normal and to be expected as we all are humans with different backgrounds and flaws and so on. People have their highs and their lows, of course, but in most relationships that are built on the foundation of mutual trust and understanding, accountability and integrity, both partners are able to truly support each other without having to exhaust themselves in order to fulfill their partners’ every need and demand. Imagine how a person, involved with a narcissist would still have to exhaust themselves, even if both of them were open about NPD. Always watching, observing, predicting his or her advances in order to react in the ‘appropriate’ way (unfortunately there is none). Even if they were aware and understood the true extent, they would still have to bend into a pretzel. Relationships are not a chess game.

          Even if, at a certain breaking point, that person then followed through and walked away, as you suggest – so then what? In order to regard this disengagement as a true loss or to feel the need to keep that person, not just in the sense of hoovering them back in to the abusive cycle, a narcissist would have to be able to value that person as an individual, unique person in the first place, not simply as an appliance that is, eventually, interchangeable. In my view, no loss could be so threatening for the narcissist that he would consider change a necessity in order to keep that person. He is not accountable. Even the fuel of a “very special person”, such as you described, would become stale eventually, lacking both thrill and excitement. Chances are, he would not even respect you for walking away, as this would still mean a massive wound, and will instead seek his fuel elsewhere. Even if the other person were able to separate logic and emotion, to truly accept his or her every moves, to truly understand that the narcissist’s behavior is not about them (ironically, nothing of it, neither good nor bad, is ever about the other person) – how long would he or she be able to truly maintain this whole charade, both mentally ans emotionally, to be though enough to endlessly endure, support and remain?

          You write about learning curves and room for error. Given that you work in the mental health area, that might be your territory. But still – the narcissist would have to be willing to learn from his errors in the first place. That would require accountability and dealing with a massive amount of pain. This would also require further introspection – not only awareness – and a whole lot of work. Why exhaust oneself with hard work when what has worked for so long still does (at least in a certain sense) and will continue to do so?

          There is no – cannot be an – ultimate salvation. His or her restless search for that one special person is an self-perpetuating cycle as he is bound to destroy eventually, every time. A hamster wheel. Another person, an appliance, can and will never be a solution. In this respect, I agree with you – change can only happen with the narcissist him- or herself, though chances are near to zero.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Interesting exchanges here about possibility for change for HG (and I’ll say those with his awareness, because we well know there is no one like him haha). I believed early on that it may have been possible for him to adapt to a non-typical or “looser” relationship, but in time that opinion has changed. I’m not even sure about them believing there’s “The One”. More and more that just looks to me to be a good excuse or reason to give in to being a slave to boredom while trying to make it look otherwise. After all – he already admits to being a slave to the pursuit of fuel, driven by the need for the construct to contain the creature. Why would he want to acknowledge any more that he is not in control of? Putting it down to searching for “The One” and having others repeatedly fail him takes the accountability off of him. He’s having no part of being accountable to anyone and it’s never his fault right? Its funny though -you cant usually claim to be a victim while also claiming to calls the shots and being “The doer and not to done to”. Boredom kills. It affects most everyone and relationships at some point, but rather than looking for ways to make the present situation work as is expected in society, they just hop to another situation. But theyre also greedy, so they keep going back to dip into the well of the past. Then there’s also the need for negative fuel which I interpret as code for their need to feed their sadistic streak. So theyre really not looking for the “deeper connection” or “the fullness of a deep and satifying relationship” that is the holy grail for others. When you look at it from their point of view, they always have either the golden period or are feeding the sadism with negative fuel, and both feel good to them. They have no use for normal. Why would they want to change?

            Thats where I’m at right now with my observations.

      3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        I also think this person would have to be extrverted and intuitive. They need to be risk takers to at least some degree. She would have to be cooperative but will say no on shit that actually matters to her. He needs someone who isn’t predictable – consistently inconsistent in their reactions because someone too consistent in the way that they respond would lead to boredom.

        Remember that HG needs to learn different ways of coping and have effective replacement behaviors. There is a learning curve so there has to be room for error.

        1. Mercy says:

          Doc, I respect what you’re saying but I see flaws in your theory. 

          1 Setting boundries would be a challenge to the narcissist. They couldn’t let that fuel temptation sit unexplored.

           2 Consequences, this is not unconditional love that you give a child when you are teaching them boundaries. A narcissist pushes boundaries to inflict pain and to assert superiority. So you set your boundaries, “If you cheat I will leave you”. The narcissist cheats, now you must follow through because if you don’t you will not be respected. Did you teach the narc a lesson, does he respect you? No you denied him fuel and now your time is over.

          3. “You must be someone who isn’t predictable. Consistently inconsistent”…would anyone really want to play tricks for a treat the rest of their lives? If the narcissist knew this is what you are doing he wouldn’t respect you. If the narc didn’t know, it would be manipulation. Basically living a life of lies. 

        2. tigerchelle78 says:

          Dr HQ

          I’ve been interested in your comments, and I think you or someone like yourself would be good for HG or someone similar. (Its kinda turned into like a dating service for Hg in here lol! Nah- I’m just kidding!)

          I do see that this person would have to challenge him, and stretch him, as its his mind that needs to be engaged and stimulated more than anything else. It would be good for her to be consistently inconsistent, but have the training such as you have Dr, and confidence and enough control, to withstand and endure many of his manipulations and mind games that he will use.
          She would have to still let him be in control, but not because he HAD to be but he WANTED to be. She needs to handle him in such a way to bring about a certain curiosity within him. A learning experience for him, because mostly he has been there, done that, got the T-shirt several hundred times. Its the same cycle. Rinse, wash, repeat. Over and over…..this would be new explorations….

          She needs to be able to change or rather make him want to change even in small ways this cycle. Challenge it! Challenge him! But more importantly, because he feels he could or wants to. It has to be when he is ready….

          At the same time keep him guessing and on his toes so to speak. This would require a person with a certain skill set and certain traits, as you point out. I also think she needs to be able to make him feel safe, and reassure him at times especially when she perceives wounding within him and other times perhaps at times play a more fiesty, daring character. She would almost have to be able to play different people.

          For example with myself, (and I’m not suggesting in any way myself here, just using myself as example to explain this)… I am different with different people I know. With people I trust and know well, my inner child comes out more, but with people I don’t know so well, my sometimes well behaved/sometimes not, self comes to the fore. When I’m angry and have a borderline rage, you do not want to mess with her. I have a good caring side, but I also have a rebellious streak in me and at times I don’t care. I also have my in between type personalities where I kinda fit in with groups, or when out. We all do this to some extent, but with me it is more I guess severe.

          So with that in view, I was thinking HG might well need someone who could be like that, (but obviously not like me and different) because it takes a lot longer to get to know someone like this. They have varying layers. You have to learn how to handle them, or rather the many sides to them. To even try to seduce someone such as this, would be more challenging.
          But I think for a change it would be good for HG to have someone who is aware of what he is. That way there can be better communication and even humour about each other. He is always missing a vital component in the relationships he is in right now which aids to the relationship being severely strained and not working. They don’t know or understand him. To be understood is everything as it means you can be vulnerable with that person, and know that its OK. This is a side to HG nobody probably gets to or ever sees. He protects it severely which is understandable. His vulnerability/ pain may well come out in different and varying ways, and its crucial he feels safe and secure.

          Surely if one knows and comes into the relationship eyes open so to speak, then it changes the whole dynamic. There can suddenly be open and raw honesty. Something i dont think he even knows how to be. Closest he gets to it is here with us perhaps. This will bring hopefully an intimacy that he has not before had nor used to. It will be frightening and painful. Its like the relationships now are all counterfeit. Because he doesn’t and can’t let on whom and what he is, and she thinks he is someone he is not. Its doomed to fail! But then that’s why they are easy to let go, because he isn’t actually “involved” in any way. Its just like an actor plays a role.

          These are just my thoughts. I don’t have training. I’m not that intelligent as rest of you. So there could be loads I got wrong here, or that is totally off or doesn’t make sense. Its just some thoughts I had…..that’s all!

      4. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        The research I have read in addition to my own personal and clinical experiences as well as my observations and analysis of HG would lead me to believe yes -theoretically I or someone like me would fit that profile.

        This is all in theory though because in practice things could still go terribly wrong. They could also go verrrrryyy right but if they go wrong they are gonna crash and burn.

        1. Twilight says:

          Dr. HQ

          Thank you. I appriate the time you took to go more in-depth with your perspective.

          1. Twilight says:

            Appreciate…..freaking auto correct

        2. Pale Horse says:

          You have personally observed HG? Also, can you please provide a citation to such research that examines the traits/ characteristics of the ideal partner of the narc. Thank you in advance.

      5. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        So what I am saying is that I theoretically do have that strange configuration of traits and temperament that could handle someone like him in what would be an unconventional relationship/partnership/friendship – whatever you want to call it.

        I’m not saying that person is me it’s more a configuration of traits.

        The individual who would be in this relationship with HG would need to know and truly understand what he is to handle him properly and to set boundaries even though he’s gonna wanna year the shit out of them. There needs to be an understanding between them – mutually parasitic relationship where each benefit or it can’t last and he will be back to where he started … finding new victim after new victim… and round and round we go.

        I don’t believe inside he wants to continue this cycle … I don’t think he knows how to break out of it. He does what needs to be done to fulfill his needs. It’s all he’s ever known.

      6. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I will address your points in a little bit – promise 🙃

      7. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I can address your last point right now – I cannot address the others until a little later because I am at work and it would require a more extensive response…

        This person is naturally consistently inconsistent in their responses. They aren’t trying to be unpredictable…they just are. In this respect there are no real games being played it is more of a mood dependent thing.

        I have been told by every narcissist and psychopath I am with that they never know how I am going to react to something. They always look genuinely surprised. I don’t try to be this way…I am this way. I am this way because I am moody. I am not necessarily playing games. I mean sure….when I need to play games I play them but I won’t do it unprovoked and most of the time I will take shots at me until I give my final warning…not to push me…sometimes they listen…sometimes they don’t….when they don’t heed my warning…the shit that comes flying out of my mouth is on the next level or I simply leave.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Dr. Harleen Quinzel,

          I find your theories, and the resulting discussions, very interesting.

          But specifically this:

          “This person is naturally consistently inconsistent in their responses. They aren’t trying to be unpredictable…they just are.”

          Do you really believe being that, and being open to a lot of different sexual experiences is enough?

          Unpredictability can get tedious too – “too much consistency” may actually look appealing after always being presented with unpredictability. Maybe if you find yourself eating magically flavoured ice cream that is a different flavour experience with every bite; good ‘ol reliable strawberry ice cream may suddenly be exactly what one has a hankering for…

          Plus, on the sex side…it isn’t about the sex for them. It is only a means to bind and use as a power dynamic…so if you are an individual who enjoys a ‘varied’ experience that will only, eventually, be used against you at some point.

        2. E. B. says:

          Hi Dr. Q.,

          “This person is naturally consistently inconsistent in their responses. They aren’t trying to be unpredictable…they just are. In this respect there are no real games being played it is more of a mood dependent thing. ”

          I have witnessed a similar dynamic in a BPD-NPD couple. The amount of energy they spent on their interactions was unbelievable. It was like they were fuelling each other . They break up and get together again.

      8. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I also believe compromises would need to be made on the part of the female. I believe being bisexual or try-sexual lol would be beneficial in some capacity – this will NOT be a conventional relationship. There would be some lets just say…umm…. things that would be allowed. lol

        Let me seriously stress that this is not going to be a conventional pair.

        1. Mercy says:

          Dr Q, thank you for your response and once again I do respect your words and wisdom. I wanted to respond in depth but that would require a run down of my relationship and this thread has a lot going on. 

          In answer though, I believe that my relationship with the narc was as close as you can get to compatible between a narc and an empath. I am no stranger to compromise especially in the bedroom. I go back to your words “boundaries” and “consequences” and once again that’s where your theory shatters for me. What you and I see as an unconventional relationship is simply a set up for the narcissist to use later as manipulation, pushing boundries and future smearing. My narc once said to me “how do you explain a relationship like ours to the average person? You can’t because it doesn’t fit into their normal world.” At the time I thought this to mean that our relationship was special in some way. We “got” each other and he would often tell me those same words. I was aware of what he was due to HGs writings and I feel this is why I was able to sustain a long term relationship with my narc when no other woman could. 

          The narcissist are wired to seek fuel and even your most unconventional relationship will eventually become strawberry ice cream. Don’t get me wrong, I was all in with the excitement of it all. Introducing a woman into the bedroom soon became videos, pictures, him wanting to see me with other men. Him seducing other women then telling me stories. He wanted to involve me in all of it and as long as I “compromised” as you call it, all was well, fun, intoxicating. It was never enough though and at some point you realize while you were preforming for the narcissist your boundries have been slowly removed. He loved what I did for him. The proof of this could not be hidden. But the high of it never lasted long and he needed more. Eventually he wanted to see if he could get other women to do these same things for him. It was no longer something we shared together. Any woman was game as long as they would preform. Now all of a sudden you are competing, you realize your boundries where drawn in chalk and there is nothing sacred in your relationship. You are just doing tricks for the narcissist to keep him. 

          I have no doubts if I wanted to continue with the relationship I could preform again. I have no doubts I still have the ability to give him his high. But all I’m doing is enabling him.

          Yes your theory is possible. Anything is possible. I think you can make a square fin inside a circle if you have a hammer. But make no mistake the narcissist will be holding the hammer, not you.

      9. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        I strongly believe he can mentally connect. More recent research suggests that psychopaths in fact have an empathy switch – that it is not that they do not possess emotional empathy but their default is OFF and ours is ON. It is actually really interesting. Now take this into consideration – I have always found this fascinating…

        There have been cases of serial killers or simply killers letting their victims go – not simply because they said they wouldn’t tell…..

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Doc HQ
          Do you think its possible that the killers let some go due to some form of empathy? My thought on that has always been that it exhilarates them to have one of their victims out there in fear and continuing to spread fear in their name. To give them a feeling of power (thought fuel), superiority and grandiosity (I am so clever and above law enforcement) and the pleasure of still being in the spotlight. Also the thrill of fantasy in revisiting the victim in future if they so choose (hoover). Much like Hannibal Lecter at the end of the film saying that the world was much more interesting with Clarece in it.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Not empathy, it is either self-serving or recklessness. I agree with your observations NA. One might masquerade such benevolence as an empathic act (again self-serving should the individual be seeking leniency from law enforcement for example) but that falls under cognitive (false) empathy.

        2. Twilight says:

          Dr. HQ

          What about MRI scans showing a decrease grey matter in the brain where our empathy comes from? These scans have proven this is a physical difference in how psychopaths and those empathetic/empathic/empath differ.
          This isn’t a default and turned off, it is not there. Which in turn IMO supports HG when he states empathy can not be injected.

      10. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I completely understand what you are saying but what I’m trying to say is this particular person with this configuration of traits and his decision to modify certain behaviors it what would make anything work at all….

        It goes beyond “handling” someone….

        The right combination of factors and an HG who is willing to modify some of his behaviors is the only way anything will work…

        It is his decision….this isn’t about control…this about him controlling himself himself because he would find that he would benefit if he did.

      11. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        I would like to stress that most of what I said is really based on the fact that HG is a high functioning self-aware psychopath…i tried to account for pieces of the narcissism but nothing is perfect…

        His narcissism is what actually holds him back

        There are some narcissists who are in relationships for extended periods of time – they work in their own dysfunctional ways – it doesn’t mean you or I would want to be a part of it…or would find it suitable but there are some people that have been with their narcissist for 20 years or more – I know a couple (my friends parents) a narcissist female and a borderline male who have a relationship for 20+ years and keep it going and appear happy AT TIMES but the truth is most people cannot continue in these relationships…

        I stress once again most of what i said is based on his psychopathy with things in their that TRY to account for the narcissism — that is what would make it far more difficult….

        1. Twilight says:

          Dr. HQ

          I understand what you are saying. This is strictly my opinion. HG knows what he wants, decides goal and accomplishs this. If he decided that he wanted to venture on a relationship with another and them having knowledge of what he is, it would happen. No one knows what traits he sees that would benefit him, only he does.
          The traits you see are what you believe would be a good configuration that would benefit him, based on your perspective of understanding his perspective.
          There is nothing wrong with you or anyone similar to you, I am sure you have given many a run for their money and I know you have taken a beating (figuratively) in your past relationships.

          I do agree it would be a unique relationship, self awareness would change many aspects.

      12. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        Both parties would have to be very self-aware and have self-control…

        This is all an ideal situation….

        Not everything has been accounted for but as for what i have seen – that would be his best shot

        There are some poeople who are willingly in relationships with psychopaths as well….ive seen them – rare….but somehow they work….

      13. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        The only person who is gonna help HG is himself. He can choose to continue what he is doing or he can choose to try something else that sounds promising – as long as his needs are being met.

        This isn’t all about him though – what about the other person? The other person needs to find the situation desirable and has to benefit.

        again an IDEAL situation but both parties need to work and communicate and have to feel like they gain….a lot of factors need to be aligned

      14. K says:

        Intimacy isn’t possible with a narcissist.

        “This will bring hopefully an intimacy that he has not before had nor used to.”

        HG Tudor
        SEPTEMBER 4, 2018 AT 09:24
        There is no true intimacy with a narcissist.


    2. tigerchelle78 says:

      I agree Dr HQ. Well put. I think though it would take a very special kind of person, (very stable independent type of person I would imagine) to live with a psychopath in a functional kind of relationship, as they need the highs and lows, and extremes to live. They need new and exciting things, people, ideas, places to go to etc…They could never settle down with just one person and be content. Just one person could never satisfy them enough. But you know more about them than I do being in your field.

      1. /iroll says:

        You cannot predict people with psychopathy—it depends also on their background, whether they feel thwarted in some way or whether they are satisifed with their lives. Sociopaths are the ones with the dogmatic behavioural patterns they demand you to conform to—they’re sullen and regressive (infantile), seek caregivers to feed from (nurturing their wounds), while psychopaths are glib and impersonal.

      2. /iroll says:

        In other words, and this gets weird, but HG could be a con-artist psychopath who is merely, on a very instrumental level, attempting to scam the self-help community for cash by posing as a wounded sociopathic / malignant npd that we could all feel maternally sorry for, because those guys are wounded and infantile.

        Or, he is actually that. If HG has P1 then the only motivation for cruising victims via an anon fb profile (something I saw my sociopath-narc do), would be to allieviate boredom or scan for financial resources. His not wanting to reproduce is in favour of psychopathy, strangely, as he doesn’t want the burden of ties that a sociopath does actually want in some twisted way, usually to secure a surrogate womb.

        I think that HG sees women as financial rather than emotional resources and poses as being affluent as part of this persona. I think he ‘dates’ older women. I think he has expertly drawn on the wounded-monster narrative, guilts women via his matrinarc story and is in fact, an emotionless psychopath.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Incorrect, 90% of my intimate interactions have been with those younger than me. Appliances are providers of The Prime Aims which I have repeatedly and consistently explained.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I have (previously and still) considered all that youve said here, but ultimately I have rejected parts of it and/or do not care. Why?

          Because his information and insight has borne out to be true in too many experiences to be discounted.
          He makes sense of the non-sensical in terms we can understand and relate to, where the medical community falls short.
          He is clear he does not care about us. That is the mistaken perception of a few, but he has only ever made it clear that he does what he does to gain his own advantage and that any gain we have is a by-product of that and not a goal. Thats more honesty than you get in most situations.
          In that respect and to be fully transparent, I am using him in the same way (as are many). I get the information I want to add to any that I receive outside of here in order to educate myself, draw my own conclusions, and make sense of what I do and why, and how best to protect myself. That is why I feel strongly about people reading his articles and consulting. It is not to make him rich as I do not benefit from that in any way, or to discount other sources, but to gain a different perspective than that offered elsewhere. To add another dimension. Does he gain from that financially? Of course he does, as do Doctors and Therapists for substantially higher rates than one would pay here and no one flinches. I expect to be compensated for my time as do most people providing a service.
          It makes sense that the fuel outside of here is more plentiful and potent for him. My interactions outside of here are also. So if he gains any fuel here I don’t care. I offer mine all day long as long as he’s putting out what I want and what I think will benefit others. If you think about it we are/were giving it away to others and gaining nothing in return anyway.

          Having said all that, I do understand what you are saying, and a bit of healthy skepticism is also good. I still watch for signs of anything I dont like or find not to be true. I could NOT care less about what he looks like or how he is in bed. I just want him pumping out that delicious information that fuels my power and helps others to find theirs.

        3. tigerchelle78 says:


          I have indeed thought many of the same things. And who could blame him I guess? He has found a very good niche within the market. Any businessman is going to see an opportunity and fill that need. He was taught by his uncle and mother to aim high and to succeed no matter what it takes.

          Some could even call it emotional manipulation or exploitation, being as he is making money off of other people’s desperation and hopelessness. But then just like you would pay for extra TV channels because then you get to watch the very things you want to watch, its providing a service, then so too HG is providing a service to the public which if you want bespoke service, you have to pay for.

          But the people who come to this site and pay for his consultations are not forced. They come willingly. They pay willingly. Each has a choice. HG doesn’t make them spend their money. I guess HG is more of a lure. And I really do believe that if all of us here were to suddenly to die and be gone tomorrow, then all he would be concerned about is getting replacements as fast as possible to build up his tertiary fuel supply again. But we don’t pay him to engage with us here. He does that of his own free will and time.

          He has the best answers and information at his disposal being the type of person he is. And he spends his own time and energy in giving out this valuable information. So both get something out of it. The customer and HG. It is a business. His business.

          Of course what HG really thinks of it all and us, only he knows. As for being a con-artist, I don’t think there is any conning involved. The only conning would be surely ourselves perhaps?! He doesn’t have to interact with us here at the site, he could have left that and paid other people perhaps to do it. But one gets the impression that he wants things done properly and wants the information to be accurate. Therefore he does it all himself.

          As for women whom he dates, that’s up to him, and his back story/past only he knows. It would be difficult to make up such a story and all the details and have a work and private life at the same time?!?!

          At the end of the day, many I doubt would care. People just want the answers to their questions. I personally have never had a consultation because I would or could never trust someone whom I’ve never seen and met in real life. But there are many who have consulted many times and say its worth every penny and you could not get better advice.

          He is a narcissistic psychopath. I don’t think completely emotionless, because I doubt he could write how he does without feeling it himself. There has to be some motive there to write. If it is simply just all about the money, then he is more dangerously clever than I realised.

          1. E. B. says:

            Hi tigerchell78,

            re: “I personally have never had a consultation because I would or could never trust someone whom I’ve never seen and met in real life”

            I understand your concern and I must say that there is nothing to worry about.
            I had to create a PayPal account using my personal details. Entering fake information is not allowed in the country where I live. HG is one of the very few people who have never betrayed my trust.
            However, people I met in real life including doctors did betray my trust. They have no respect for patients/clients confidentiality.

            HG’s consultations are confidential and this goes for both sides. He will give you personalized advice according to your needs. You can only benefit from them.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Correct and thank you EB.

          3. E. B. says:

            You are welcome, HG.

        4. MB says:

          For the sake of argument, let’s say HG IS a farce. He has completely made up his entire persona and is using his work and online presence to lure and exploit wealthy women. He has duped us all and sat back laughing at our gullibility from his hollowed out volcano. He has been running one of the most elaborate and I must say, brilliant scams since the inception of the information superhighway.

          1. It cannot be denied that his work has resonated as truthful and been validating to victims of narcissistic abuse. Therefore, the information itself is solid. There is no question that his work has helped and in some cases, saved the lives of victims across the globe.

          2. If we had known he was laughing at us from the hollowed out volcano (aka his mum’s basement) would we have taken his work seriously? Would we have listened to him at all? Maybe his facade of wealth, brilliance, and desirable physical appearance has facilitated his ability to get the word out.

          3. He has not tried to hide the fact of what he is. He has been truthful about his machinations to the point of disgust to his readers at times.

          4. Finally, we are participating in this farce of our own free will. He is not forcing us to buy or read his work, interact on the blog, or listen to his videos. We can leave at any time we choose.

        5. Twilight says:


          People believe what they will and you are entitled to your belief.

          Have you seen another as accurate as HG?

          Will you not pay for services render by a specialist in the medical field for their knowledge in how to provide the best treatment for an illness or injury?

          HG offers his knowledge for free here and in his books, if one needs specific answers or insights into their personal situation then paying for a consult is no different then paying a doctor for their knowledge to treat an injury or illness.
          So many get hung up on he is a narcissist and “see” him the same as the one they were involved with. Narcissists are similar in many ways, few have an awareness, and even fewer if any others have an awareness and the knowledge HG has. His work is a testament to this fact.

          I don’t feel sorry for HG, nor do I pity him. I don’t agree with what he does in his private life yet I am aware if he wasn’t who he is many more would be suffering and stumbling in the dark looking for answers.

          If it was all financial why are his books so inexpensive and can be downloaded for near nothing on kindle? Why would he be here on the blog, why would he be writing articles to publish here in his spare time that is free to read and interact with him and one can find real support and not the merry go round of poor me he did this he did that with out ever actually hear truth only a version of what victims perceive to be the truth in other “support groups”.

          IMO what he get in a financial is worth the many lives becoming free from the whys, guilt and merry go round in hell.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Twilight.

          2. Twilight says:

            Thank you HG!

          3. tigerchelle78 says:

            Aaaaand the “storm troopers” are out in force, as to be expected….. Loyal as ever! Bless…. So predictable!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            And when somebody disagrees with your opinion, your response is predictable.

          5. tigerchelle78 says:

            At least something is huh?!

          6. Twilight says:


            You are entitled to your opinion, if you wish to place a “label” on me I am not a stormtrooper yet more like yoda only I don’t speak backwards, Short, green, bald, male, and 900 yrs old.

            If you wish to point out any inaccuracies in my comment, do so.

            You are correct I am loyal to HG and his work here, he has shown me he is accurate and has always been consistent here, I can not say that for some here.

          7. tigerchelle78 says:


            I have always felt you dislike me here. Or do not approve of me. Yet I am like anyone else here, trying to learn and get along the best I can with the faults and failings I have.

            The label was more tongue and cheek, being some people think HG, is like Darth Vader, and just like he has his “storm troopers” so does HG, have his loyal supporters. I actually got that name from another long term person from here who shall remain anonymous.

            No I’m not always consistent. I’ve always been honest about that. I am on the Cluster B spectrum, (BPD) and like I have mentioned before one of the hardest things for me is consistency. But HG does like to keep almost rubbing it in my face, because he knows that we can’t or find it difficult to keep consistent. We will keep consistent for a while then it all goes to pot.

            Here are some quotes with people who have BPD who explain it better than I do:

            It’s as though both the enemy and the friend exist inside of me and I never know which one will surface. One moment I’m fine and happy, the next I can be reactive, misinterpreting people’s comments and explosive.

            Ideally if I could construct a bridge between my intellectual rational mind and the emotions within me and these two parts of myself learn to communicate with one another, maybe that would prevent some of the rollercoasters.

            For many people with BPD, its the lack of rationale and getting so irrational when you know you are intelligent, but yet you can’t see for all is black and white. And then after the “blow-outs” cleaning up the mess afterwards.

            Its very hard to be in here, because I am on the Cluster B spectrum yet the only part people are acutely aware of here is the NPD part. (Yes we are here to learn about Narcissism). But I do have overlapping traits, (narc traits) and you will see them from time to time.

            I just wish people would try to be understanding of the fact, that there are those of us trying to manage a personality disorder, as well as narc abuse that they have suffered from past, and it is not easy.

            This is not an excuse, or me playing the victim, it is the truth. And I’m trying my best to explain….

            What you think or how you view me is up to you, but you cannot judge a person from their comments on this blog. As many have stated.

          8. Twilight says:


            If I like or dislike you is irrelevant here. I don’t appreciate being lied to thou.

            The label was born from jealousy, not the excuse you wish to present to the blog now. You not only stated it here yet in another comment of yours towards NA, if you had not done this what you state now would be acceptable. I still would not believe you due to energy doesn’t lie, I would have said nothing.

            Where is the proof HG keeps almost rubbing this inconsistency in your face? I have seen you repeatedly state I am inconsistent due to being BPD.

            You have always been able to explain things exceptionally well. You are very good with words and understand how to use them. So why they need to use quotes from others to explain your views or feelings?

            These are your words “What you think or how you view me is up to you, but you cannot judge a person from their comments on this blog. As many have stated.”

            I do recall a narcissist coming here and stating that, you can not judge a person from their comments on this blog, as far as many others I don’t recall this being said.

            A narcissist comes to the blog, yet no one can judge them from the comments they make on this blog. Why are we here then if it isn’t to learn the signs and if we see them not be able to recognize and judge.

            I judge people by their energy, actions and words only confirm.

          9. tigerchelle78 says:


            The label was not born from jealousy.

            It came from someone else here. But I am protecting their identity as they were kind enough to stick up for me in here once and I do not forget kindness. If that means you thinking I am a liar rather than giving up her identity, then so be it. But HG knows who I mean and so does the person who told me. It is between us three only.

            HG has mentioned on several occasions words to the effect of: “at least be consistent”……

            You obviously have not seen these occasions, (nobody can possibly read everything on here), plus we tend to read the comments on who we approve of or like the most.

            But just because you’ve not read them Twilight, may I remind you that it does not mean they were NOT there, the same as other comments you haven’t seen, it simply means, that you personally did not see those comments.

            Right from the beginning, you saw my “energy” as you put it, and decided, from my many no doubt confusing comments, you did not like me, and to be wary of me. That’s fair enough. I did not come into here with the right attitude, and did not know how to be.
            And yes we only have words to go by, so judged I got, and like vultures onto their prey I was….and I’ve seen it with others too.
            However comments on here, are STILL but a very tiny fraction of a person’s thoughts and feelings.
            When a persons thoughts and feelings are in constant turmoil as I’ve tried to explain on here, many times, then those comments will be “all over the place”. If you wish to still judge me based on them, that is your choice. I give up trying to explain any longer.

            If you think this constitutes me a narcissist, then by all means, you support that notion, and its “off with her head”!

            If seeing me as your enemy, is really important in here, then by all means you go ahead with your stance. You sling whatever you think necessary at me. That goes for anyone else in here. If it makes you feel better, then by all means do it.

            I used quotes from another person with BPD, to explain how it is inside my head, as I felt that whatever I say, is looked at disaprovingly, or found fault with, (and yes even I myself understand this) so I tried a different way, (using someone else’s words) and what do you know?! I literally cannot win! Ha!

            Yes why are we here Twilight? I ask myself that same question.

            Is it to learn about the narcissist dynamic?
            Is it to judge and detect other narcissists or whom we think may be/could be narcissists in here?
            Is it to learn what and how to deal with narcs in our personal life?
            Is it to support people no matter what they are going through or who they are?
            Is it to find out about ourselves in the process of our own narc abuse?
            Is it to find fault with others comments?
            Is it to ask HG questions, and find out what he thinks and how he views things?

            Why are you here Twilight?

            I wish you well….whatever reason it is

          10. Twilight says:


            “The label was not born from jealousy.
            It came from someone else here. But I am protecting their identity as they were kind enough to stick up for me in here once and I do not forget kindness. If that means you thinking I am a liar rather than giving up her identity, then so be it. But HG knows who I mean and so does the person who told me. It is between us three only.”

            The Darth Vader label was said and directed towards HG in playful banter, I am familiar with when, who, and the context in which this label was used towards HG.

            You comment was not tongue in cheek, born from jealousy, rage, and entitlement. If it was, you would never have repeated this in another comment when you were lashing out at another for a comment that wasn’t direct towards you.

            Now you are trying to twist things as if you are protecting someone that was kind and stood up for you on a public blog and if you do not give up their identity you are a lier. I see two things here, you painting yourself as the “good” person and I am the “bad” person. It is not like I am going to find them and give them a good lashing, Or the fact I can prove you wrong in what you are saying if I look up this conversation and show it in its true context.

            The subtle jab to make me jealous by insinuating some knowledge is between only the three of you. I laughed, this is a public blog and anyone can look up and/or read through the archives, nothing is just between HG and on, two or three others. Now if you had a consult between the three of you, this could be understandable to why HG would know and it is between you three only, you have stated you have not consulted with HG so this would be a public matter and not an “only” matter.

            Your words
            “HG has mentioned on several occasions words to the effect of: “at least be consistent”……”
            HG is consistent in how he replies, show the evidence where he has repeatedly rubbed this in your face. You can not because there is none.

            Your words
            “You obviously have not seen these occasions, (nobody can possibly read everything on here), plus we tend to read the comments on who we approve of or like the most.
            But just because you’ve not read them Twilight, may I remind you that it does not mean they were NOT there, the same as other comments you haven’t seen, it simply means, that you personally did not see those comments. “

            Stating there is no way a person could possibly read everything here then telling me I have not read them then reminding me that just because I didn’t see them doesn’t mean they are not there. You don’t know me, know how fast I read, how long I have been here, or how much time I spend reading the blog. It is your opinion and not a fact I have not read everything.

            You assume I was wary of you from the beginning due to the energy I felt. First off I am not wary of you, so don’t flatter yourself. My first introduction to anyone is with this energy, here or in my real life, it is a person actions, the way they use words (here and in real life), body language, expression etc (in my real life) that confirms what I first sense. I started to observe your behaviors from YouTube, so my observation do not come from just the few months you have been here. Per your comment thou you have deleted comments there so no one can go and look to show this behavior has repeated from one platform to another. That is ok cause time reveals.

            You insinuate you have been here for such a long time you can state with accuracy that many are call or insinuated they are narcissist when they first come here and show strong opinions or views. I am curious as to the evidence to support this claim, on the many that have had this done to them in the 5 months sense you first arrived.

            You always have a fall back to explain your behaviors, I do not care if you are NPD or BPD, your behaviors speak volumes of your character. As soon as you started to manipulate and play games here told me I don’t want anything to do with you.

          11. Twilight says:


            This may be repeating when I sent my original response it never said reply sent, so I am rewriting it.

            You stated,
            “The label was not born from jealousy.
            It came from someone else here. But I am protecting their identity as they were kind enough to stick up for me in here once and I do not forget kindness. If that means you thinking I am a liar rather than giving up her identity, then so be it. But HG knows who I mean and so does the person who told me. It is between us three only.”

            I am well aware of who and when HG was referred to as Darth Vader, it was done in playful banter. Only one has referred to another as a Stormtrooper and she was not the same person that playfully called HG DV.

            I corrected you inaccuracies with me here because I saw you are trying to plant a subtle seed of discord. You see you used a term that is tied to the “dark side” and you connected it to me. Just because at that time I knew it was born from jealousy didn’t mean I needed to say anything, it was when you decided to deliberately lie to me I decided to call you out as the lier you are.
            You see when you stated “cue the Stormtroopers twilight and (..) on another thread as you lashed out at another showed your jealousy.

            Now this subtlety of I am protecting another by not identifying them is nothing more then projecting and trying to switch the focus on this vs the actual issue of you are a lier and jealous, on top of twisting things with this label, back then it was direct towards HG being DV not a loyal reader being called a Stormtrooper. Your changing context.

            “But HG knows who I mean and so does the person who told me. It is between us three.” Did you three have a consult and this is why it is only between you three, as far as I know this forum is public and anyone can read comments past and present.

            Your words
            “HG has mentioned on several occasions words to the effect of: “at least be consistent”……”
            Where is the evidence of this being directed towards you? Not where you have changed the wording to change the context of his comment.

            Your words
            “You obviously have not seen these occasions, (nobody can possibly read everything on here), plus we tend to read the comments on who we approve of or like the most.
            But just because you’ve not read them Twilight, may I remind you that it does not mean they were NOT there, the same as other comments you haven’t seen, it simply means, that you personally did not see those comments. “

            If I comment on an issue I have seen it. Your gaslighting tactic doesn’t work on me.

            My first interactions are always through this “energy” even here. Even thou I know much about a person from this, I let them show me which only confirms what I already know. Don’t flatter yourself and think I am wary of you, you are far from a threat to me. Your comments have never been confusing to me only a confirmation.

            Why am I here

            I was invited to come here by HG. I have never met HG in person, we did “speak” long before I came here.

        6. WhoCares says:

          Hi /iroll,

          To me, a ‘scam’ is when someone misrepresents who they are or what they are capable of and accepts money for said skill or service (that doesn’t actually exist) – or simply an illegal plan for making money. I don’t think any of these apply when HG simply advertises being a ‘self-aware’ narcissist who can teach and consult with regard to the behaviour of others of his kind. It is not even a ‘get rich quick scam’ because there is a huge time and effort investment on HG’s part.

          And what if there were any ulterior motive that goes deeper than that?

          Or if like MB suggested:

          “Maybe his facade of wealth, brilliance, and desirable physical appearance has facilitated his ability to get the word out.”

          Even if that were the case…so what?

          He is still helping people. And if you think about it…even if he never did anything further with his books and the blog and never changed his ways in his personal life…even over the course of his lifetime how many possible victims could he have? It would never amount to the numbers of people he has assisted here and then secondly through individuals passing along the same information to others in the helping professions and their own children…

          But he could just – happily enough I’m sure – go traipsing along in his personal life successfully collecting victims, never having enlightened anyone.

          And this:

          “I think he has expertly drawn on the wounded-monster narrative, guilts women via his matrinarc story…”

          Maybe. But what better way to draw in women (and others) who are the ‘fixers,’ ‘healers’ and ‘savers’ who want to apply this knowledge and share it with others to benefit them as well.

          Purposeful? Maybe…or maybe not. But, clever? Yes, indeed.

        7. E. B. says:

          Hello /iroll,

          “…but HG could be a con-artist psychopath who is merely, on a very instrumental level, attempting to scam the self-help community for cash by posing as a wounded sociopathic / malignant npd that we could all feel maternally sorry for, because those guys are wounded and infantile”

          Yes, he could be one of them but I think he is not. I cannot see that he poses as a wounded sociopathic / malignant NPD. On the contrary, I can see his self-entitlement: his victims deserved his abuse because they did not give him what he wanted.
          We could feel maternally sorry for the abuse and neglect they suffered as a child but not for their destructive behaviour as an adult. I do not feel any pity for them. They are aware of their manipulative behaviour and have learnt how to survive and defend themselves.

          Most narcissists/sociopaths would rather pretend to be a Victim of narcissistic abuse. They are trusted and accepted more easily than if they told the truth. Many survivors of narcissistic abuse are more willing to accept advice from another victim/survivor than from a sociopath/psychopath.

          IMHO, HG does not have a financial advantage by disclosing himself as a diagnosed narcissist sociopath. Some survivors are still afraid of having a consultation with him, needless to say, trusting him and the information he provides.

          If he were an impostor taking advantage of naïve, gullible people in the self-help community, he would have decided to put on the fake Survivor of Narcissistic Abuse façade, just like other highly narcissistic people and also full-blown narcissists in the self-help community shamelessly do. These con-artists victims also have an *aggressive* marketing campaign to sell their products.

      3. /iroll says:

        Or: maybe I need to understand Millon’s subtypes better.

        HG, you should post more about ‘nomads’ and other types more that can address these queries. I know that you’ve spoken with Quora writers in the mental health community and have more insight into psychology than you let on here.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have not knowingly spoken with any Quora writers in the mental health community. To whom are you referring and where is aid evidence of me having spoken with them?

      4. Christine says:

        The “special type of person” it takes is a self-martyr who would rather nail their own wrists to a cross than take responsibility for living their own lives, making their own choices, and helping those who can be helped.

      5. WhoCares says:


        ” I think though it would take a very special kind of person, (very stable independent type of person I would imagine) to live with a psychopath in a functional kind of relationship…”

        I like the idea of what you state and have thought similarly in the past..and I think that in ‘theory’ it seems possible to achieve but in ‘practice’ is an entirely different thing. I’m not judging your suggestion – and I think I’m guilty (or have been guilty of) of this type of thinking myself but I see such hopeful thinking as a form of ‘romanticizing’ such a dynamic or arrangement. And even though I feel that way; it is still an interesting subject…

        1. tigerchelle78 says:


          Yes I do agree with you. I think we all being different empaths go into this space where one extreme is romanticizing how they are and can or could be in a relationship and then there is the other extreme where we think they are robots without absolutely no feelings at all, and totally void of anything remotely human. Both are extremes, and I often go between these to, trying to get the balance right. I keep trying….

      6. Perse says:


        Just FYI,
        ‘I have not knowingly spoken with any Quora writers in the mental health community. To whom are you referring and where is aid evidence of me having spoken with them?’

        Here is the link to the Quora article where one of the repliers mentions speaking to you:

        I found the title of this article to be slightly amusing as I have read here many times why You do what you do.
        It is, as always, your discretion whether to post this outside link.

        (I, of course, prefer to read your articles over Sam’s. And as for audio, your voice and ideas are much more intriguing than SV any day!)

        Thanks for all you do here on narcsite,


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Perse, I always appreciate the production of evidence. I do not recognise the name of the person who refers to having conversed with me and therefore they are either incorrect or we have spoken but they did so using a different name (which is probably the case) and I was not aware that individual was in the mental health community.
          You are most welcome.

      7. nunya biz says:

        Yeah, I tend not to worry too much about scams. I’m surrounded by scams anyway. Not that I don’t have my moments of paranoia, I do. But for the most part I’m aware that I am plenty intelligent and life experienced and I do at least some due diligence at preventing being scammed, so the rest of the story isn’t really my problem.
        I think I do have a strong tendency to take what most people say immediately at face value though. Since I am not a liar. I hate liars.

        Anyway, as MB says, the information is valuable and I’d be a fool not to listen to obviously factual, helpful information and I *try* not to react too much to the emotional aspects, but it takes some effort.

      8. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        I don’t think HG targets women simply for financial gain. I think that it’s a plus if they happen to have money lol.

        1. tigerchelle78 says:

          I think he just targets women full stop, and takes whatever he can get from them or they willingly give to him….. Gotta keep that creature at bay, IF there even IS a creature. Maybe that’s another ploy to make us feel sorry for him and to give him a perfect excuse of why he just has to do what he does…. Who knows?!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Incorrect. All people are appliances and thus pulled into my fuel matrix, something you would realise if you had read the material.

          2. tigerchelle78 says:

            HG, I have been reading many of your books. And articles on here. I do not know everything. It takes time. I’ve only been here since about May time I think…. So I am going to get things wrong.
            I like how you say, “all appliances are thus pulled into my fuel matrix” like we have no choice in the matter….
            Maybe you have like a net over your black hole that you are, that some empaths get caught in, like a filter type system… in which some empaths are not suitable stay in the net like me? Just guessing here…..

      9. /iroll says:

        Perse – thank you.

      10. K says:

        I don’t think the Creature is a ploy to make us feel sorry for him and Lori explains it very well on Narc Icicles No-6.

        APRIL 29, 2018 AT 05:12
        This is the hardest part for me. They didn’t ask to be a narcissist but it is who they are and they can. I more quit being who they are anymore than we can.

        I once read that with other mental illness it’s like a blanket that comes down over the victim but Narcissism isn’t like that it’s woven into them it’s who they are every fiber interwoven into to who they are. It’s not like they can take some medications and the blanket or cloak lifts it’s not an illness overlaying their personality. It IS their personality. Without it, the they cease to exist


      11. Lori says:


        I don’t get what you feel he is taking and scamming. He hasn’t forced anyone here and he’s entitled to offer his secvices for those who wish to engage him, but the site is free.

        Is getting a ton of attention from it ? Sure, but what harm has he done ? I see no harm. I only see information. I guess this is where I see so many getting so personally wrapped up in this, but honestly that’s not his fault. Those are Codepebdent traits coming out in Empaths and I see it often here. I’m always shocked at the intensity in which some are willing to defend a narcissist they don’t know. (Lucky you HG) Everything the Narcissist does is not done with malice it’s done with what’s in it for them. That’s not necessarily malice. They often do good deeds because it serves them to do so.

        I like HG, but I don’t know him or profess to know him. I guess I don’t get what your beef is with him. What is it he’s done to you that has you so riled up and perhaps I might understand.

      12. Lori says:

        This is all quite interesting to me. Tigerchelle you are a diagnosed Cluster b borderline. You must be aware that Bordelines are respmmsible for doing huge amounts of emotional damage to others in fact I was told by both the shrink and therapist that many practioners won’t treat them because they are so demanding of their time and attention that many pravtioners just don’t want to deal with them and are often viewed as worse to deal with than a Narcissist.

        So my question is are you a “good borderline”? Because everything I’ve was taught in therapy was that you are very difficult people with very distorted thinking. I originally thought I had Bpd and therapist said Lori you absolutely are not and believe me you don’t want that diagnosis that would not be good

      13. Lori says:

        They date any women or men. Age and gender are not factors only usefulness and how the appliance makes them feel

        That’s why some can be child predators

    3. DebbieWolf says:

      Dr HQ


      This is spot on. Great advice in general too..

      Hi all, some thoughts…..Just to bear in mind:

      In HGs case though, there is the fact that he knows this already but he still, STILL, sees no reason to change to alter behaviours.

      He has a self confessed sadistic streak that so far he has indulged.

      He admits that dropping someone from a great height figuratively speaking and to view their fall is to quote from an article: “all the more delicious”.

      Dopamine dealers in the extreme are greaters and they get the most use out of the Super Empath and particularly the magnets who draw other empaths to them too, helping with the aquisition of potential new sources. The SuperEmpath. They last longer i.e. slower to deteriorate to “numbness” and malfunction. (Apparently)

      Loaded up with plenty of all fuels they will pump and pump out all the emotions serving gratification and satisfaction in abundance…includes all the fight and challenge on a full plate for the narc to lick up.

      Less likely to reach becoming “numb” to machinations at a fast rate.
      Loaded with a fair amount of attitude and able to dish it repeatedly and edifying the narcissist on all fronts repeatedly.

      Delivering the goods beautifully wrapped up in positive and negative fuel so thoroughly….and again repeatedly and again…for longer.

      yes yes there is the state of Supernova…which is by far not exclusive to the SuperE…so what?
      This is just a feast for the narcissist.

      We all deliver delicious fuel..we dont all do it for ages and ages…not all of us.

      “Not cutting the mustard” is another quote of HGs. Directed at normals etc and in my opinion some types of empaths who do not pump out such copious amounts of emotions (fuel) for devouring as this SE does or for as long. For ages in fact.

      I am glad not to cut that kind of mustard.
      What a compliment.

      Though not an article re SEs..I feel this is valid re Sanctuary and the sought after types for HG…just to say:

      Many read about this SE and in my opinion almost want to be a SuperE.

      How come?. It is no accolade to be whirling around so magnificently in a maelstrom of shit is it.

      Whirl magnificently elsewhere…we can and do.
      SEs find it harder to go grey rock. Oh they sometimes escape…I did myself. I always do…but the SE finds it harder to switch off.

      We all find it hard. I for one however find that dancing the dance for the narc’s prolonged satisfaction is hardly a strength ..it is a longevity trait..to give gratification for extended periods of time..is about longevity.

      Yes the narc may disengage temporarily if they are not impacting the SE..or getting the desired response this time..but the narc goes off and gets that gratification elsewhere… coming back later with renewed vigor and a different approach..a bigger stick to poke you with! No pun intended!

      The meme for the SuperEmpath…like Supergirl. Presented like the superhero of empaths…the top level…the top notch class of empath.

      Oh the prize it is…for any narcissist to find ANY empath of any school or cadre that meets their particular wants and checks the boxes on their particular bucket list…oh the prize for the narcs to push those buttons and make you dance and dance and dance…

      If dancing and dancing …hopping from one foot to another, spinning round, jumping and cartwheeling to the narcissist’s tune for the longest time than anyone else does whilst the narc sarcastically and gleefully claps their hands, if this epitomizes being “super”
      Then screw that!!!
      Fuck that game!!!

      It is a tremendous fall indeed from that position. The humiliation experienced..the piss take you went through. The bullshit you accept but thought you fought!

      The contempt they have for the ones who actually danced for so long?!?

      Oh my.

      I am so glad to say I am not a super empath.

      I deliver yes. I was ensnared..granted.
      I also withold myself earlier.
      I challenge earlier.
      I grey rock earlier.
      I escape earlier.

      With knowledge now which will serve further still..

      Fold up your capes SEs.
      That emblem you wear waving your ability to fly and loop the loops like some skilled top gun pilot will not serve you with a narcissist.

      Elsewhere of course they will serve you and others….caring and sustained strengths we all have..we can sharpen, grow and learn and we can deliver our packages to the right addresses with discernment.

      Don’t give gifts to spoilt brats who are never satisfied and will never appreciate them “figuratively” speaking..and who will in fact throw them at you and laugh at you and gain *gratification* from that cut the impact made upon you!

      Dopamine dealers..
      There are replacements for them.

      Natural other sources.
      We can all have other sources and they do not have to be people all the time.

      We are empaths!!! We are equipped with the tracking abilities. The nose for so much that is right for us out there.

      The narc dulls your senses and bungs up your nose.

      Now come on empaths!!
      Get sneezin’!!!
      Sneeze it out…stop dancing…get walking…and get using those tremendous senses and abilities outside of the box they put you in.

      Leap for you. Dont dance for them.

      1. DebbieWolf says:

        Actually whirling around magnificently in shit is an accolade…enforced shit…I rephrase that…being able to deal with it etc…but I should have said it is no prize..no desirable state. And whirling around in shit and knowing you are is when you must ditch longevity traits and plate spinning routines because the narc sees the foolishness of you hanging in and ends up with contempt for you putting up with it. They want to keep you out for play or in the cupboard for later. They tire of you endlessly and must change tunes mid song..
        There is no hope for anything else.

        The high for us was just dopamine. It is admitted they are illusions. The dopamine is real and they make an addiction..it is real and physical. Not about you deciding to be logical..you cant just switch off like that..nobody can.

        Address the trauma bonding effects and learn about dopamine and oxytocin aswell as HGs work.

      2. shesaw says:

        “Address the trauma bonding effects and learn about dopamine and oxytocin aswell as HGs work.”

        Thanks Debbie Wolf. That was a very good read. I second that. When we understand and address the trauma bonding, ‘the ties that bind’ will lose their mysterious power – because then we will see those ties for what they actually are: the effects of cheap but powerful tricks, used to dysregulate our emotions and to mess with our idea of reality.

        Tx for the empath-empowerment. That was great. ‘Let’s deliver our packages to the right addresses’. Yes, let’s be THAT SE!

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          Haha…many thanks….Re the ties that bind..”now, where’s the scissors, I’m sure they’re around here somewhere”…

          ah…yes ….snip, chop chop.

        2. DebbieWolf says:


          Just remember though let’s not be that SE.

          you don’t have to be a super empath to be empowered and strong they’re not the only ones whoever give challenge far from it…. they’re not the only ones that fight back far from it …the whole point of a super empath is that they take shit for a long time remember that.

          I’m a carrier empath that’s my cadre.. standard is my school.

          Being a carrier empath also has longevity but I don’t go as far as the super empath.

          that’s something to be proud of I don’t want to become a super empath I’m very proud of the way I handle things.. I could have done better but that’s in the past..

          I’ve said many times being a super means you go on for longer and put up with it for longer fighting back and forth with negative and positive I don’t do that for extended periods like the super empath does do it… I don’t do it for as long that’s why I’m not a super…..

          We don’t have to be classed as the super empath to be fucking fabulous..
          and when you make a stand it doesn’t mean you’ve become a super empath.
          it just means you don’t take bs far as long trying to fight the fight you can’t win.. you don’t have to be a super empath to make a stand.. it isn’t just them that makes the stand.

          awareness .. discernment..

          I’ll fight until the cows come home but I know when to stand back to piss them off better now.

          we’ve all got toolkits now.. I’ll just add that to mine.

          pissing them off is just a by-product we can all have by products..

          pissing them off is the by-product of me seizing the power like you that can, and not reacting to bait.

          I will not be using any tools I gain to proactively hurt anybody .. I will be using them to counter if I have toI.

          if situations do not arise then I will go about my business in a marvellous and sustained way.

          I absolutely refuse to let this break me into depression and loss of faith and hope in the goodness of life.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Debbie Wolf

            “We don’t have to be classed as the super empath to be fucking fabulous..
            and when you make a stand it doesn’t mean you’ve become a super empath.”

            Yup. That. All day long.

          2. DebbieWolf says:



      3. shesaw says:

        DebbieWolf, ttx for your reaction. No I definitely didn’t mean the HG-category SE (I actually hate those categories 🙊)
        I meant THAT empath which you described so beautifully: the ones ‘with the tracking abilities’. With ‘the nose for so much that is right for us out there’. THAT kind of Super Empath.
        (sorry that was not too clear, I will write more later, when I have time!)

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          Ah yes. Sorry SS.. I see what you mean x.

      4. Jasmine says:

        Standing O for DebbieWolf!! 💖💕💞

        I’ve had enough abuse to last a lifetime. There are far too many “super” empaths with “greater” narcs on this blog.🙄
        My goal is to live -ALONE- in my own little bubble, thankyouverymuch!

        fellow escapee 😙

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          Aw thank you. I live on my own too, it really is great. well I have a couple of rescue dogs.. not quite alone.
          I’ve got plenty of elbow Room. I’ve no ties and I can do as I please whenever I like.
          definitely fellow escapees… xoxo.

      5. Lori says:

        I get tickled at this whole Super Empath thing. Everyone thinks they are one as if makes them a Super Hero. The mental health community does not use these terms and you would likely just be deemed as having some Codependency issues on some continuum. As I have said many times, I have many of those traits. Does it make any difference? Nope Ive been professionally diagnosed Codepebdent, but I can be extremely feisty at times. For me, it all depends on my particular relationship with someone as to what level of my codep traits get exhibited. In romantic situations very strong codep traits. Work reltionships often quite strong. Friendships ? Depends on the friend. I can exhibit doormat characteristics in a romantic relationship or I can go off on the Narc or anything in between. It all depends on the person and the nature of the relationship and what the control dynamic is as to whether I’m the controller or the controlled

      6. Lori says:

        HG sees Codepebdents slightly differently than I do and I am one. In my opinion, if you see a Codepebdent as strictly a Doormat you’d be quite mistaken. The same way if you were to view all Narcissists as Somatc Greaters you’d be quite mistaken.

        Codepebdents are about control like Narcissists only they go about from the opposite manner. Narcissist control by withholding and taking away Codepebdents control by over giving. Copdeps will over give the a Narc in an attempt to get them to behave i.e. control them and it works for awhile until the Narc gets bored. The Codep will continually seek to ressurect the control they THOUGHT they once had but the Codep always loses at this game but becomes addicted to the dynamic as the Narc gives intermittent positive reinforcement which reinforces the addiction

      7. nunya biz says:

        I tend to see almost anyone, narc included, in a dysfunctional relationship as codependent.
        That view may evolve.

      8. Lori says:

        On some level that might be true. It exists on continuum

    4. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi Dr. HQ…ive been following along your posts on the subject of psychopaths and those that could handle them best or be best suited with one.
      I have a few thoughts. First off psychopaths are on the npd spectrum which means their one true love(emphasis one “one”) is themselves. There i no way around that. No person will ever be more important or even the same importance as themselves. A codependant doormat would be possibly ok with this but most would find it unfullfilling and empty. You are there to make them feel good and cater to their needs.
      Secondly …boundaries…? 🤣😂😄 sorry but no. Narcissists resent boundaries they will never ever ever respect boundaries. Boundaries means youre exerting your superiority and no one is superior to them absolutely no one!
      Next …time wasted. The only thing that will come from a relationship with a narcissist is going in circles and time wasted. Friendships or other forms of relationships you can enjoy aspects of a narcissist but an intimate form will never surmount to anything but emptiness bc they have nothing to give. They only take for their true love themselves.
      Changing or modifying them…? Thats solely up to them and only them you can not train or handle a narcissist. They dont operate on the same level as those who dont have npd. Only they can decide to change. Would you want to wait around to see if that happens? Lifes too precious to be wasted.
      A narcissist is someone with a personality disorder and to be with one is on their terms not yours and you are one of many appliances to them. Never think youre more special or different and are up for the challenge bc there is no challenge theyve already won once youve signed on the dotted line.
      The only way to successfully be in a relationship with a narcissist and i say successfully mockingly is to fully succumb to them. You give your beliefs up, give up your boundaries, give up your wants and needs. You are not an individual to them you are a servant to cater to their needs and nod yes to them and never say no.
      Theres no handling a narcissist or being an equal with them its what having npd is about complete selfishness and self absorbance.

      1. windstorm says:

        “The only way to successfully be in a relationship with a narcissist and i say successfully mockingly is to fully succumb to them. You give your beliefs up, give up your boundaries, give up your wants and needs. ”

        Reading that made me shiver in horror. 😱

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        I know a psychopath who has modified his behaviors – he has moments of fuckery but we are good friends

        He has successfully modified a good amount of his behaviors only because he wants to because it benefits him

      3. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi windstorm…lol its true its all in the HG narc bible. You sign your life and sanity away.
        Ive been with my narc almost 9 years and thats not a true representation of a full on relationship where you live together. Being more of a secondary source i can see how a primary would struggle to hold on to themselves while trying to make things work. You cant. Thats why theres cycles of love bombing and devaluation and disengagement. If youre ok with the crazy cycle and there always being other intimate sources then i guess itd work if you can call that a relationship.
        My narc i know what he is but we are not a true relationship when i think of a committed real committment. I dont thi k for one minute i can change or alter him believe me ive tried lol

        1. saskia says:


          I can relate to what you have written about your “non-committed” relationship of nine years. Mine lasted over a decade, we started off as friends at university and became intimate partners later, that entanglement lasted until our (now) mid-thirties. I found your last sentence re:change interesting as it resonates with what I have observed in my own behaviour.

          I am still in the process of observing not merely our relationship pattern as whole but also my contributions to this dynamic as far as my behaviour and traits are concerned, so I still hesitate to put a label on our relationship and consequently, the content of what I am stating here about my own experience is still under observation and ‘revision’ – I just wanted to add some thoughts.

          I distinctly remember one of our last, in this respect fruitless back-and-forth discussions about boundaries and concessions and so forth – he finally even told me “this is who I am, I will always be like this. You have to take it as it is, gain from the positive we share or leave” – were, in retrospect, proof of my inability, back then, to accept and embrace reality and equally accept him as the man he truly was. I would not consider him a full-blown malignant narcissist – still not sure about the actual extent-, so my example might not be truly comparable to many observations here about NPD – but regardless of the actual label, he was certainly aware and open – to a certain degree – about his behaviour as we talked about that and about us a lot. Yet I find that his answer touched quite a central aspect of what is repeatedly discussed – change or acceptance (of what is).

          In my case, if I had remained in this relationship it would have felt like constantly and continually betraying and supressing my personal needs, wants and values without an option for me to be truly seen or heard as everything, eventually, was on his terms. I finally came to a (turning) point where I felt so stuck and equally exhausted in this dynamic that I felt like suffocating if I continued. Apart from my own experience, many of his other women, both predecessors and ‘replacements’ or those he continually triangulated with – strong, some of them more attractive or successful, all of them certainly intelligent and outspoken yet devoted and loving women – have ‘failed’ in the very same way.

          Yet, to be very honest, in our case “change” would have implied “change” on my terms, in the way I felt would be necessary to maintain our (intimate) relationship. It was only later that I, in retrospect, realized what I would consider my own delusion in that matter.

          Being able to truly accept that he had no capacity aka willingness (!) to change or to make certain concessions (read: in the way I expected him to make for the “sake” of the relationship) was a long and extremely painful process for me – and quite a process of maturing in the sense of being able to stand up for myself and for the life I want to lead and also, to accept that it was neither my responsibility nor in my power to “fix” anyone or to decide in which respect another person would have to change or to make concessions for anyone’s sake. It was a long-drawn and equally painful process of small realizations and silent confessions that included my own contributions to this dynamic until I was finally able to follow through, cut the ties, walk away – and mean it.

          When I write about my (mis)conception of “change”, I certainly do not want to deny that, in the realm of relationships, there are behaviours that are clearly not acceptable or downright abusive, of course, and that would have to be adressed if both partners remained. I am referring to the notion of change and modification of behaviour in prolonged intimate relationships with people who are aware and clear about what they are and what they are (not) able to do.

          This is a piece my own very personal experience, in a nutshell, of course, as there are many more factors involved that contributed to and maintained our distinct dynamic over all those years. I certainly cannot speak for other commenters here nor does my experience negate other people’s views, experience or opinions on that matter. It might very well be the case that another person, due to their individual mindset and personality, would see more long-term benefit in this kind of relationship and thus have the ability to gain from the dynamic, as Dr Q suggested in some her comments.

          In that respect, I read the exchanges here with great interest as I, on the one hand, understand those different opinions, views and convictions. People do have different needs and expectations in relationships and many are engaged in various forms and manifestations of (intimate) relationship. Yet it is my personal conviction that the idea of (long-standing) mutual gain, respect and understanding or making certain concessions for mutual benefit (in a more “economic” sense), as presented by some commenters, might rather work in more neutral non-intimate relationships – where certain power dynamics might still be at play but will not cause harm to the same extent as both parties are not intimately involved. It is my opinion that each and every intimate partner, despite their inner strength, intellectual and emotional capability and even professional knowledge in that field, will sooner or later succumb to this distinct and exhausting narcissistic relationship. I might be wrong as no one can know anything with absolute certainty, of course – but I think that the idea of this possibility, especially when still wounded or hurting, leaves too much space for emotional thinking.

          And personally, I would regard ideas and suggestions for intimate relationships that are – at least implicitly – based on a patient-doctor-dynamic (I am referring to the example of a person combining clinical/professional experience with other personality traits required) with great caution for the sake and boundaries of BOTH people involved.

          1. windstorm says:

            I really enjoyed reading your post. It was well written and resonated with me and my experience in my marriage.

            The words your narcissist said to you about having to accept him as he is were so much like my husband’s thinking. For many years I believed I was defective and at fault for having needs in the relationship that were not being met. I was told that I was being selfish, spoiled and childish for not accepting reality and being happy with it. It never made sense to me that it should always be me that compromised, but it did to my husband since if I didn’t want what he wanted, obviously I was wrong since he was right. It wasn’t until I had children old enough to show me love that I learned what a loving relationship really was and realized that my husband had never really loved me.

            “if I had remained in this relationship it would have felt like constantly and continually betraying and supressing my personal needs, wants and values without an option for me to be truly seen or heard as everything, eventually, was on his terms.”
            This is how I felt as well for many years. Being able to accept that mine had no willingness or ability to change for our relationship was hard for me to accept as well. It took me years to slowly work out reality in my mind and to realize that staying married and trying to live together was destroying me.

            He and I have a pretty good relationship now based on common history and interests. But it is not an intimate relationship. I agree with you that the only non-destructive relationship with a narc is a non-intimate one.

            My exhusband does seem to try to not be too hurtful to me and to be helpful. But there is just no getting around the fact that he has no empathy. And we NEED empathy in an intimate partner. We need to be loved and to know that they will be there for us when we need them and that they actually care about us – not just care about themselves and how we are useful to them. And if our intimate partner is a narcissist, their lack of empathy will constantly remind us that they do not love or care about us, because they are not capable of it. There is no way to keep that knowledge from causing us pain.

          2. saskia says:

            Thank you for sharing some parts of your own experience in response to my comment, windstorm, and also for your kind words.

            Though I do enjoy reading both HG’s pieces and the resulting various comments, opinions and debates here, responding and expressing my thoughts sometimes takes a bit more time as English, as must be quite obvious, is not my native language – still learning.

            I can again relate to what you have written about feelings of inadequacy with regards to your relationship. I feel that it is impossible to maintain a strong sense of self and to be a person of integrity with all those characteristics and traits that make each one of us unique and special when a relationship is essentially based on very rigid demands and inflexible patterns where the only choice is to succumb to the partner’s reality and to be engulfed in their world. This rigidity hinders and blocks one’s own progress in this one and only life we have. I feel that the (identity and emotional) crisis many of us experience at some point, at least when they have experienced enough of those cycles of abuse, is inevitable. For me, it was a kind of catharsis where I felt completely broken due to the pain, hurt and eventually shame with regards to my own delusion – but it was also a point where I felt I could finally break free. So again, for me, it was also a chance of getting to know myself better and a process of ‘growing up’ and of maturing emotionally.

            I read “The 5 Wants of the Narcissist” just the other day where HG writes about engulfment and, ironically, this reminded me of one comment ‘my narcissist’ made very early in our, at that time, friendship where he told me that “women would lose themselves in him eventually”. Among other things, there were red flags brightly waving all along which I clearly realize in retrospect and though this is not funny at all, I had to laugh about myself when I remembered his comment. Despite my gut feeling that there was something not quite right (and to be honest, I stumbled upon the subject of narcissism quite early in our friendship), I would happily ignore and rationalize my gut feeling as I was, of course, too smitten with him. When I look back now, it is as if I was looking on a map that depicts my life where all those milestones and landmarks that mark both our relationship but also my own path and development are now shining brightly and I am finally able to connect all the dots and make sense of it all.

            Our relationship lacked authenticity and flexibility as we would always cycle back and forth in this well-known trias which exhausted and annoyed me as there was, of course, no chance of ever evolving beyond that point. As I already stated in my previous comment and with regards to what you have described about your feelings in your relationship, it took me quite a while to realize how much I was actually hurting and rationalizing pain and simultaneously denying essential parts of myself where, in other important parts of my life, e.g. in my job, I was required to be strong, to stand up for myself, to fulfill responsibilities and make decisions.

            When I told him that I felt like I was suffocating in our relationship, as stated previously, he would not understand or grasp the essence of what I was actually saying. Or perhaps he did but would deny the reality of my words. His last words, when he tried to hoover me back into the relationship and I politely declined, were that I should be “well above all that”, that he had expected me “to be a much more wise and intelligent lady who would not bothered by those little inconsistencies”, that he was “so much more relaxed and easy-going” than I was (which was quite hilarious when I think back to his blatant jealousy and tantrums he threw whenever a man would even dare to look at me) and that after all, after we shared so many intimate details about our background and our childhood as “I knew so much more about him than his own mother”, I was just “pulling the rug from under his feet”. In the context of the information and what we are all sharing here, those words are just a variation of a well-known pattern. Just like you state in your example, windstorm, I was in essence blamed for being selfish, for not being understanding and comforting enough though he never truly acknowledged his abominable behaviour and yes, for being childish though actually he was the one who would often behave in a very childlike, boyish manner which was quite unbelievable when considering that he, at 6’3 towering well above me, appeared so calm and put-together in other contexts and his collected and pragmatic demeanour was well appreciated by his colleagues at work.

            In essence though, we did share a lot of things that I deeply valued. I loved to talk to him as we could do that for hours and I enjoyed his insight and his perspectives on so many different topics. We share a quite similar background as far as our childhood experiences, upbringing and family/sibling constellation and resulting dynamics were concerned. There was, to a certain extent, a kind of mutual understanding and ‘recognition’ that was not merely a façade. What we shared in the beginning of our relationship might be quite similar to what you describe about the relationship you now share with your husband. It sounds as if the two of you have found a basis on which it might be possible to interact without essentially hurting or harming the other person. Like you, again, I feel convinced this can ve possible in a more neutral relationship that is built on pragmatic principles. I would not be able to lead this kind of relationship with him after we crossed the boundary that separated our friendship from an intimate/romantic relationship and shared a distinct sexual chemistry.

            Though I cannot blame myself for my lack of knowledge and honesty with myself and awareness at that time, I feel amused about my own naivité in my early to mid-twenties. Looking back from where I am now, I also realize a shift in my attitude towards our relationship, to what has happened and towards myself. Whereas in the beginning, I was concentrating more on the whys and hows of his behavior, so again taking the focus away from me, I now feel more capable to observe my own attitude and to be more honest with myself due to the information, background and feedback provided here and also in ‘real life’.

            And finally, I again agree with you that we do need empathy in an intimate relationship where we both are allowed to be who we are but where we also have the possibility and space to share, grow and evolve.

          3. windstorm says:

            I enjoyed reading your well-thought out, articulate comment. No one who read your comment would ever think that English was not your native language. Few native speakers I know would have written such a comment, correctly using such rich language and making no grammatical mistakes. And most of the people I know have university degrees! ❤️

          4. MB says:

            WS, re saskia’s English: I agree 100%. You got mad skills girl!

          5. saskia says:

            Thank you, windstorm! I no longer have to use the English language in regular practice and therefore feel oblivious to mistakes I make.

            (In my perspective, it is just the other way round – when I meet people who are in the process of learning my native language, I am often astonished by their language skills, especially in written form, as they are oftentimes more accurate – to be honest – than us native speakers.)

    5. Chihuahuamum says:

      Something else i forgot to add i think psychopaths being on the far end of the npd spectrum they have more of a neurological aspect where they may find it impossible to change or alter their npd whereas elsewhere on the spectrum is more environmental from upbringing. Both areas environmental and biological affect the brain. Its been proven abuse alters the brain but with neuroplasticity some of that with therapy can be repaired. I do think psychopaths were born with altered brains and may not be able to be as easily helped in therapy. Thats just my thoughts tho and ive not seen studies on this.

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        My psychopath friend who I have known since I was 16 – we have bad ups and downs but he has successfully modified his behavior in many ways – he slips here and there but I mean that’s to be expected

        He also is not a narcissist as in doesn’t fit the criteria for NPD so that makes it easier

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

        I find psychopaths much easier to deal with.

      3. /iroll says:

        “I find psychopaths much easier to deal with”

        —Only because you don’t know them. There’s a progressive movement in pop psychology to normalise them, which I hope helps kids w/ the condition to get treatment, but it’s an idealistic movement. They can be very dangerous. People with NPD are, by comparison, a walk in the park.

      4. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi Dr. HQ.. arent psychopaths on the narcissistic spectrum?
        I find that fascinating youve been friends with a psychopath. I can relate in the fact i consider my narc a type of friend. I enjoy his company and aspects of who he is or what he brings to the table but i dont think hes a “true” friend. A true friend you can trust and know has your back. They dont play mind games or try to hurt you. I guess theres many types of friendships out there. I love and care for my narc but i know what he is and i have no misconceptions about that.

      5. Chihuahuamum says:

        I had to laugh as i was posting what song comes on the radio…psycho killers by talking heads 🤣

      6. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        I can assure you I know the psychopath that is my friend – like actually know him. I know the bad things he has done – I knew him before when he was a text book psychopath to now when he has made significant improvements modifying his behavior despite his slip-ups. I am not blind – I know they are dangerous. There are different types. We recently had a serious falling out and both made an attempt to repair the relationship. I approach the relationship differently now. We are friends but not as close. Instead of communicating what was actually bothering him at times he would make nasty comments and do other things and it eventually blew up and I disappeared. He will occasionally take out his anger and frustration in all these different ways that don’t address what is actually bothering him which results in abusive behavior and my increasing frustration and my fuck it behavior. I suspected he was flip flopping in a situation but I found out he actually helped me re something that could have actually made things very annoying and messy for me. His failure to communicate effectively and his failure to rein in his abusive behavior due to his frustration with me (that I was unaware of) contributed to a cluster fuck of shit that followed. I made a move that was pretty symbolic and although a part of me believes I was justified and did the right thing the other part of me thinks maybe I took it too far. Is all a matter of perspective but I did something that you can’t take back. He decided to not get revenge which was a huge moment on his part because I can assure you he can be the straight up devil and is extremely intelligent. He perceives me as family. He has been abandoned his entire life. No one will understand the friendship we have. We keep each other at more of a distance now but we have a situation where we both benefit and provide the other with intellectual stimulation, understanding, and companionship in a strange way. If I asked him to do something for me he would and I would do the same for him and have. He understands me and provides me with someone to bounce ideas off of. I appreciate his perspective. He can be extremely grandiose and annoying at times and that’s when I get annoyed because I’m like dude you are so not in touch lol. What will happen now moving forward is beyond me but I know I will treat the relationship differently. I recognize thatthings have been done on both sides that can’t be the a taken back. We both give the other something but if I come to a point where I am losing more than I am gaining and I am being abused I’m over it and done. I don’t want it to be that way but if my hand is forced I will do what needs to be done.

        I have also developed excellent therapeutic relationships with a few of the psychopaths I have helped in a more clinical setting. One in particular contacted me when he had a child and said I was the first person He showed a picture of his child to. He contacted me recently and asked me how to best handle a situation because he was trying to rein in his behavior and didn’t want to go down a darker path. This psychopath is a true survivor he was abused and abandoned and was the only one I have ever seen in the facility I work at work the system so perfectly. He was never provided with opportunities has a few severe learning disabilities but this individual he always survives. He more than survives. He has the potential to be extremely dangerous. He has told me in the past that he tested me to see if I was trustworthy and I passed his tests and he saw that I was real. He also said I let him be himself and never judged him. All of the others Have said the same thing to me and each has tested me. The other sociopaths and psychopaths I have worked with … sadly … the stories aren’t as successful. A few off the top of my head that I had great rapport with ended up getting arrested.

        The narcissist psychopath that I’ve known since I was 14 that would come in and out of my life – i never knew him. Everything about him is a lie … every word …. everything. He is a walking lie. I actually pity him at times. He is a very sad character, He will destroy anything and everything he touches. He has some awareness – he knows what he is and has no desire to stop. In my opinion he’s a walking disaster – he will spend his entire life bouncing from one person to the next leading different lives. I look at him and I see nothing…. a faceless sad character constantly seeking approval from people.

        I stand by and firmly believe that some of these psychopaths can be directed in a more prosocial direction – they can ge their needs met in ways that don’t hurt themselves and/or other people. They can benefit society. They cannot help what they can’t feel. They can make better choices that benefit themselves and those around them.

        I repeat some people are willingly in relationships with these types of men. I’m sure they put up with a lot – you have to if you will be with a person like this. I believe that some are extremely abused and are stuck and I believe others have a more symbiotic relationship and put up with a lot but again they gain in some way.

        As for HG – there is no sanctuary – he will have to make a choice at some point. It may be best for him to lead a bachelor life forever which is fine – he may find that he wants one person to try an unconventional relationship with – or continue pretending – whatever suits him – rock out. He will never know if he doesn’t try for once to be himself with a person that will accept him – a situation where both parties can benefit. I mean listen I don’t judge – it’s not my life – I don’t have to live with that feeling every single day – which I’m sure feels pretty horrible and when the feeling starts to kick in I’m sure he needs to do whatever he can to make that feeling go away as soon as possible.

        If he could learn to accept himself and appreciate himself for who he really is then the need for approval and fuel wouldn’t be as necessary or necessary at all. When he pretends to be someone he is not in each relationship it suggests that deep inside he doesn’t feel as though he would be loved and accepted for who he is and will be whatever he needs to be to get that love and attention from the person. It also could suggest that the person is simply a means to an end (beyond just fuel) that he needs something out of the person so he does what is necessary to extract it. I mean it could be both- only he knows.

      7. /iroll says:

        Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD., just to say I read your post, thank you for sharing.

    6. Chihuahuamum says:

      One more thing i got thinking about is golden periods and their ability to fool us into thinking weve changed or trained a narcissist. Narcissists love to fool us into thinking theyve changed and we were successful in helping them see the way or training them how to treat us but the jokes on us bc its a ploy to keep us binded. Its a cruel joke of deception. We’re the fly and theyre the web. Golden periods are so often confused with “change”. Its a tool out of the narcs toolbox.

    7. evoking dahlias says:

      I think it’s the opposite of what DQ described. I think HG Tudor prefers contrast in his primary partner, the opposite of his own traits, to see his own edges more clearly. For a narcissist it is always about looking at his own reflection.
      An opposite will give him deeper, stronger reaction to his bad behaviors, which get stronger emphasis. He revels in that.
      She also needs to have lots about her, be rich in content, so to speak, to fill the emptiness so that he has lots to choose from for his own construct.
      I also think, his IPPS needs to be strong inside to shield his malignant behavior directed primarily at her. The price of being his IPPS, his continuous attention, almost an adoration and idealization, and the very public status, is an intense malice obsession, invisible to the outside world.
      This isnt about controlling the narcissist, or the narcissist controlling his own behaviors, it’s about finding his edges.

  27. wissh says:

    I would have stayed all those things, it is you who pulled away, who showed your hand, who kept cheating and lying until I could no longer stay.
    HG, I’m loving your prose and appreciating your lessons and trying to take it all in. I have read and finished Fuel and will start on a sixth book tonight. Would you be willing to explain what The Creature is more than what was in your chapter in Fuel? Do all narcs have one? How might they refer to theirs? I think I’m grasping the concept of needing Fuel, but not really the Creature.
    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The issue of the creature will be covered in a book of that name.

      1. Nika - Survival 💜 says:

        The Somatic Narcissist who has been hoovering me is 16 years older, than I. But, he is in really great shape because he was in the Army, and when I was in a relationship with him, he used to lift weights. His biceps were especially strong. And he could jump high fences.

      2. lisa says:

        i’ve been waiting ages for this book HG 😢

      3. wissh says:

        Thank you, I haven’t seen that one, I’ll look for it.

      4. wissh says:

        HG, I have been gathering questions for our audio consultation (I have way too many questions for an email consultation) and note you only accept PayPal. I do not have a PayPal account but have used it in the past by having the vendor send me an invoice through PayPal. I would provide you with my email address for PayPal, who then bill me and I use a credit card to pay. Would that work for you? (I can let you know when I’m ready, I have a few of your books left to read.)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I can invoice you. E-mail letting me know which consultation you require and I shall issue an invoice.

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