The Support Forum Fraud


There are many online support forums that exist with regard to the issue of narcissism and narcissistic abuse.

I have previously moved amongst the shadows of these blogs, Facebook sites, Twitter pages and so forth, observing and absorbing the behaviours that I have witnessed. There are those which provide information. Others are the cathartic disclosures of victims who are seeking to warn as well as recount their own horrors alongside their journey or recovery. There are others which are there to assist people in healing from the trauma they have suffered. The quality and reliability of them varies. Amidst the proliferation of support forums lurk our kind.

There is no doubt that our kind inhabit these places. Indeed, from time to time Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists have appeared and frequented my blog. Easy for me to spot, but less so for others. Naturally, narcissists appear at other sites and forums, commenting and interacting. Those narcissists will gain some fuel from the interaction with the people on that forum, but more specifically they will look to befriend a fellow commenter or two and take their interaction off blog and onto private messaging, the telephone, Skype and ultimately meeting in person. The Tertiary Source becomes a secondary source and the provision of fuel increases in potency, quantity and frequency. A separate article will cover that type of interaction.

The narcissist also operates on these support forums in a different capacity ; that of moderator, administrator or host.

How does this manifest?

First of all, if a Greater operates such a forum then he or she will be open about the fact, confirm what they are and explain much about the way we think and operate. These sites are extremely rare. Greaters are very rare and those which operate sites similar to mine are even rarer. However, those that do exist make it clear what the site is and who is operating it. This rarity and the common misunderstanding that all narcissists do not know what they are, leads some people to regard such sites in a mistaken manner.

Secondly, a Lesser would not operate such a forum. He or she has no idea what he or she is and being utterly devoid of empathy (including cognitive empathy), it would never occur to the Lesser to devise such a site. They have no interest in appearing as a saintly figure and they have no desire to listen to the woes of others. The Lesser will frequent the forums but they will not run them, indeed they prefer to utilise someone else’s work to enable them to boast about their own (supposed) encounters with a narcissist and then take centre stage as they brag about their life style, attack other commenters and do so with an utter lack of awareness as to their behaviour and of course, what they are.

Thirdly, it is the Mid-Ranger who poses the problem with regard to the creation and running of these forums. Why the Mid-Ranger? Again, he or she does not know what she is but these sites appeal to them because:-

  1. They are able to engage in their façade management. The Mid Range Narcissist genuinely believes that he or she is a good person, a decent person , an empathic person. It is other people who are the horrible, abusive narcissists. Not them.
  2. The site gives them an excellent vehicle to sound off about their own perceived mis-treatment. The Mid Ranger loves a good Pity Party, Compassion Conference or Sympathy Symposium and those that interact with these people buy into this.
  3. It enables them to continue a campaign against those the Mid Range Narcissist perceives as the abuser. Thus the ex-girlfriend, the parents, the boss or the once upon a time best friend, all find themselves routinely smeared and the validation that the site’s readers provides to the Mid Range Narcissist only goes to consolidate in their minds that they are a good person and that they are truly the victim.

The Mid Ranger is the narcissist who you will find operating these forums (or fora if you prefer) . Of course not all of the online support forums are operated by our kind, far from it, but there is a noticeable presence by our kind. Indeed, I have had many of my readers express their concerns and suspicions about certain sites and their provenance, based on their experiences there and what they have witnessed.

This is difficult for people to recognise. They will have some familiarity naturally with the idea of narcissism, since why else are they at a narcissist abuse support forum?! However, it is highly likely that their skills have not yet become attuned to recognising our kind and certainly not this particular wolf in sheep’s clothing.

What then are the indicators which show that a narcissist is operating the site (or is involved as a moderator or administrator)? Based on what I have witnessed at certain sites, you should be aware of the following

  1. Invalidation. The subject of narcissism is both emotive and complex and therefore people have various experiences, opinions and theories. Some may simply be incorrect. Some may be based on a misunderstanding. Some however remain valid because that is the experience of the individual. The Support Forum Fraud (“SFF”) will reject out of hand the experience of the reader or commenter if it disagrees with, is at odds with or contradicts something stated by the SFF. Rather than recognising a difference of opinion, or politely explaining why the reader’s view is mistaken, the SFF will be dismissive.
  2. Aggressive. If the reader holds their ground with the SFF then they will be treated in an aggressive fashion. The reader is not insulting or provocative and merely states their view. They are treated to an aggressive response from the SFF. This is the manifestation of the MRN’s ignited fury. They will be told they know nothing, that they are being ridiculous, that the SFF knows far better and reminded that the SFF operates the forum.
  3. Labelling. The SFF will label the reader as an abuser or as a narcissist. I have seen this happen on many occasions and is a rapid dose of projection designed to put down, invalidate and insult the reader.
  4. The Labelling also has a further effect. It acts as a call to arms to other readers to launch into an attack against the hapless reader. The SFF expects their readership to gang up on this ‘narcissist’ and tell them what they are and drum them from the forum. Who are those who respond to this clarion call of the SFF? They belong to two groups  ; other narcissists and mis-guided victims. The former group of course do not know what they are. The Lessers will see it as an excellent opportunity for some verbal abuse provocation. The Mid Rangers will see it as a chance to curry favour with the host and demonstrate their own credentials as a ‘good’ person. The Mis-Guided Victims (often newbies) are still very hurt by their experience and their inexperience and current world view causes them to lash out at someone who they have mistakenly seen as a narcissist. It is an easy mistake for them to make, after all, they are still learning and the supposed guru of the host has declared this person to be a narcissist, so it must be true. There will be those, those who are more experienced and empathic who will defend the reader, recognising they are not a narcissist and that the person is entitled to express their opinion. They will be set on also and therefore this often causes others to avoid the fray to begin with.
  5. The host will engage in repeated recollections of their own horrendous treatment at the hands of the narcissist. It will be like a daily sermon as they rail against this person with a zealous enthusiasm which lasts for far too long for that of a genuine victim.
  6. The host having identified a supposed narcissist on the site will not let the matter go. If the reader remains (or is allowed to remain) on the site, they will be repeatedly branded and subjected to passive aggressive remarks. Even once gone or banished, they will be made mention of by the SFF.
  7. The SFF will also make repeated reference to their “online attackers” or their “trolls” in order to gain sympathy from readers. These supposed attackers remain vague and amorphous in identity because they often do not exist, but they are a perception of the SFF.
  8. The SFF will dole out the Pity Plays in order to gain the sympathy and support of their readers. Whilst they will repeatedly make mention of how badly they have been treated by the ‘narcissist’ they were ensnared by, they will also make such comments as “I don’t why I bother doing this at times” and “I am sick of not being appreciated” and “some of you have no idea how much effort this takes”.
  9. Waterworks. If the SFF uses videos on the site or has a YouTube presence then the crocodile, self-pitying tears will flow. Those whose tears are genuine either will not post material containing them (they do not want people to see or regard it as unprofessional) or if they do it is clear it is genuine. The SFF’s waterworks will be forced as they summon up the tears. They will switch them on and off like the flicking of the switch. Once you know what to look for, you will see them.
  10. There is a lack of originality in the material. The SFF can only pose as the supposed empathic supporter of the abused not through actual experience or emotional empathy but through mimicry. Accordingly, the material that is placed on the site will be drawn from elsewhere. Often, the lazier SFF (coupled with their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability) will steal the work of others and either not credit it to the original author or pass it off as their own.
  11. There will be passive aggressive comments made towards the commenters and readers. Again, this is not always obvious to newcomers, but those with experience will soon spot this indicator and allied with points above the picture becomes clear.
  12. Sudden blocking. A reader will find themselves blocked from the site without any explanation or understanding as to what they have done. This passive aggressive response will arise because the SFF has perceived some behaviour of the reader which is unacceptable and thus wounded, has lashed out with this cold fury by providing a Silent Treatment.

Over time, the aggregate of these behaviours will demonstrate the true nature of the person operating the site and you will then realise just who is really behind the supposed caring, empathic persona.

You may have found yourself on the receiving end of such behaviour previously. Of course, you will not experience this behaviour in the future. Why? Well, you have no reason to go anywhere else than here now, have you!?


234 thoughts on “The Support Forum Fraud

  1. Renarde says:

    I only came on here to drop this in and as always, I got distracted!

    No strictly support forum fraud but it’s a good ‘un.

    I was introduced to a group called ‘Rate My Plate’. It’s fucking brilliant. Haven’t laughed so hard in ages. Typical gems in the comments are ‘I’d rather give Pee-Wee Herman a reach around that eat that.’

    Sounds cruel but it’s funny because the food is shit and the person knows it otherwise it would be very very not funny. Occasionally you get a decent to good plate. People are usually told to get the fuck out of the group and leave the plate.

    But my God, the comments. I’ve had less than a week to ‘digest’ this. Except, some (very few and guess what – WOMEN!) do not get it. So they post food which is clearly shop bought. All fine. Except when they are called on their perfidy, they get proper angry. Repeatedly. Honestly, it’s sucked out all the joy.

    If you don’t know the rules of fight club then honestly, get out of the kitchen.

    I’ve already been told to sell myself today and it’s not even tea time! Madam, if you only knew I sold myself many years before…

  2. Renarde says:

    It’s so funny! They don’t even know why they are jealous! They are ‘confused’

  3. Whitney says:

    Awesome, very helpful and interesting article HG! 🙌
    It would be funny if you analysed specific people but that would give them exposure.

    Midrange Narcs think they are victims yet never any specific details of how they were abused! I’ve noticed this a few times in real life 😊

    1. Whitney says:

      Ps I’m so happy you don’t think I’m midrange and I’m so grateful for you! 🙌

    2. HG Tudor says:

      I have considered doing so Whitney, however the best outcome is for people to learn here and avoid anywhere else and then you avoid the risks mentioned. Furthermore, I do not have time for more Mid Range Narcissists e-mailing me and cluttering up my inbox as they protest their (incorrect) innocence. Stay Tuned to Tudor and all will be well, there’s no need to go elsewhere.

      1. Kiki says:

        Very true HG , I merely had a look as your name was mentioned and I wanted to see what this was about.

        I don’t know if this person I mentioned was a psychopath but it seemed this tag had the women ( victims ) on the forum practically throwing their virtual knickers at him .

        It was disturbing as this was a message forum not a full site like yours with lots of great work and you treat us with utmost respect

        ,This person could have been a deadly sexual predator or some idiot teenager having fun yet the women lapped up every one of his stupid comments .

        Zero critical thinking , it was scary and a bit sad .


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Very much a Mid Ranger at work there.

        2. Renarde says:


          “Zero critical thinking , it was scary and a bit sad .”

          Oh indeed! I get this. Had it only the other day on a Pagan site. A man rocks up. Wants to take pictures of the lovely little Empie witches.

          Oh pick me! Pick me they squeak!

          ‘I’m not as photogenic as I used to be’ (Dear Lord. Talk about digging your own grave)

          ‘Yes, I’ll be friends!’

          ‘I’m in [insert city]’

          I take a squizz around his profile. Oh dear God. Wearing combats and fondling an AK47. That took me precisely 0.2s.

          Now I rock on. Pointing out that meeting strangers of the t’internet is fraught. Who responds next? Yeah it’s the Jar Head.

          I am a photographer! I am genuine! Polite and respectful with me though…

          It takes another an older female member to repeat it. Finally the thread is pulled.

          So, how many had been potentially ‘saved’ from that interaction but how many had messaged him? We live in frightening times.

      2. Renarde says:

        Do it HG. The flame war would be epic! Just right for a Friday evening!

  4. Chihuahuamum says:

    Yesterday i came across a narcissism utuber and was blown away by the fact they were definitely a somatic narc!! I had to laugh at this guys advise he definitely is not aware hes a narc. Wow. You would have a field day using this guy as an example HG 😄
    You have to be so careful bc there are a lot of people giving advise who ARE narcissists themselves and giving narc advise lol

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Slight correction – you have to be so careful as there are a lot of people giving (poor) advice who are narcissists themselves (but do not realise that they are).

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Poor advise it was i couldnt believe my ears. Its like everything ive learned about npd this person was advising people to be. That in itself tells me theyre not aware and totally oblivious that they are a narcissist which is humorous theyre giving advise. Its actually comical.

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. Bibi says:

          Now I am curious. The funny thing is since using YT for fitness, I got a lot of channel recommendations from somatics but at least they’re sticking to what they seem to know–gym and muscle building, lol.

          I can tell when the fitness coach is there to really train you or just to show off and preen. They tend to have a more arrogant approach and are there to show off their ‘hotness’. It’s funny. I never subscribe.

    2. Kiki says:


      Yes I came across a site where a so called anonymous psychopath was berating HG , and having a good bash at him .
      some of his commentators actually asked to exchange personal emails with him WTF.
      This person could have been a lunatic serial killer .
      Funny enough the user name this psychopath had cropped up here in a comment under the article Grey Rock , an unusual user name but I have a feeling it was him.
      I did point it out not sure if that was wise here or allowed by HG.


      1. HG Tudor says:

        Interesting Kiki, probably a Mid Ranger thinking he is something he is not. They cannot help but exhibit their jealousy, it is risible.

  5. santaann1964 says:

    Yes! Well spoken words. We all got messed up , some the same , some different. All messed up for being a different kind of human. It’s ya learning experience as we grow and The Narc’s stay the same! Cruel and misleading. Sorry H but not sorry. But you are growing and learning as well. I hope my fuel helps us ALL

  6. Joanne says:

    I have been thinking about this all day and I want to apologize for coming across so arrogant and judgmental in my comments and for my use of the term “wallowing hole.” I am in no position to make judgments. My affair was brief and I didn’t even experience the complete cycle. Who am I to judge anyone else’s situation or their reactions and responses? Was that group helpful to me at the start? Yes – from a moral support standpoint. I needed to “meet” others who had similar experiences who could relate to me, commiserate and help me confirm what I was dealing with. Did it help me find my way out? Truthfully, there were a couple of members who did help me to see some things which I could not see for myself. But in the end, the repetitive nature of the questions and oftentimes confusing advice was not helping me to understand and move forward. Once I found HG and began finding answers (and once I was scolded one too many times for my referrals to HG) I realized it was no longer a place that would be helpful for *me.* I shouldn’t speak negatively on the forum or its members. If I offended anyone with my comment, I am truly sorry 🙁

    1. FYC says:

      Hi Joanne, I have not been here long, but from what I have read of your comments, you seem a kind person trying to heal from an entanglement with a narcissist, who for most your life you never realized was one. You suffered a serious blow to your sel-esteem, but have come a long way (kudos on resisting the Hoover!). What could be a more valid reason for being here and sharing? I appreciate your contributions and do not judge you.

      As for your support forum fraud comment, it arose from your frustration with an experience. That is valid. Still Hurts’s comments indicate her own brand of frustration. They are both perspectives. Frustrations arise in all of us and being able to express ourselves freely is part of a healing process. I’m a fan of free speech, and hope you both continue.

      In general, difficulty arises when someone feels triggered and lashes out in judgement trying to assume a superior position. Usually nothing constructive results. I like the quote, “You can be ‘right’ or you can be in a relationship. You can’t demand the one without damaging the other.”

      Joanne and SH&C, Thank you for considering my perspective. I am bowing out.

      1. Joanne says:

        Thank you. You are always a thoughtful commenter and have a way with summarizing complex scenarios. You said something to me recently which really struck me about mirroring and ET and LT. I have it saved 🤗

        1. FYC says:

          Hi Joanne, That is very kind of you to say and you are most welcome. I understood the intent of your post and had no issue with it. I have never seen a hive mind mentality here, just many people with many perspectives with a common experience of trying to understand someone that defied our logic. Take care and stay strong!

      2. nunya biz says:

        Joanne my comment on posting was meant to say, in sum, you are entitled to your opinion. Sorry if that didn’t come out.
        And I have liked your posts.

      3. Narc noob says:

        Hi FYC, I have been trying to figure out who I knew in my circle of friends that was a SME. I’m pleased to find one here. Just wanted to say hi. 👋

      4. Claire says:

        Hi Joanne—I’m revisiting this topic from
        last month. I actually just cut the ties on my divorce group too. The narc group just got stupid—“I broke no contact again and we f#**ed.” It was intellectually akin to being on the short bus so don’t apologize because my thoughts as now stated aren’t nice. Or, “I’ve been no contact for 3 days.” Well ok, ticker tape parade for you then. It drove me nuts. Then the divorce group was infiltrated with women putting make up on and taking pictures of themselves wanting affirmation, or 50 something year olds carrying on about phone sex with men on their 20’s. It grossed me out. Here there is intellectual banter and people bright enough to have a real chance. It requires a certain level of cognition to truly “get it” on a deeper level than, “Don’t let people be mean to you.” It is unfortunate because it doesn’t mean someone rather “dull” deserves to be treated poorly—it’s just a fact that this is complex. I can’t recommend HG’s work to 99% of the people I work with professionally because they generally can’t read well. Our patient material is geared for a 5th grade reader and when I’ve written material in the past I have to keep the syllable count down. It’s not much different than managing diabetes. If you are on the dull side you are likely going to have a poor outcome. If you are sharper you are better equipped to manage it—at that point you at least have a better chance. This is complex and multifaceted.

    2. K says:

      I wasn’t offended by your comment, I do not think you were being arrogant, negative or judgmental and there is nothing wrong with using the term “wallowing hole” because, in many cases, that is accurate. It is ok to talk about your experiences on other forums or on narcsite and I am not surprised you were scolded for referring HG. Some people seem very threatened by him.

      Here, on narcsite, we get accurate answers that move us forward. One of the most important things I have learned here is that ET is the enemy and more dangerous than the narcissist in some ways. You are doing fine and there is no need to apologize.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You have the enemy within, you have the enemy without.

      2. FYC says:

        Well said, K. I tried to take the high road and redirect the conversation to what may have been driving that outlashing, but clearly failed. This led me to believe there was no point in taking a direct approach as it would further the negative discourse. I am all for freedom of expression, but not in favor of critisism and shaming. I believe HG nailed it.

        1. K says:

          Thank you FYC
          You did a fine job and I noticed your efforts to remain understanding and compassionate as I read through your comments. You even pointed out that you belonged to the group that she lashed out at and that you were grateful to HG. You were supportive, direct and honest throughout your comments which facilitates constructive discourse.

          Freedom of expression is very important and Still Hurt& Confused expressed her views and I hope she stays on narcsite irrespective of how she feels about me or the other posters. This forum is exceptional because of dissent and no one gets barred because of it and I believe HG nailed it, too.

          1. FYC says:

            Thank you for your kind response, K. I appreciate your strength and fairness

          2. K says:

            My pleasure FYC
            And thank you! You just made my day!

          3. FYC says:

            K, Have a wonderful weekend!

          4. K says:

            Thank you FYC! I do love the weekends; enjoy yours, as well.

      3. Joanne says:

        Thank you, K.
        It came up the other day that my entanglement was brief (something that I’ve been completely up front about since coming here) but it’s had me thinking that I don’t really have the experience or the “right” to comment on certain things.

        But anyway, thank you for your reply, K. I stand by my statements about HG and this forum 🤗 Hugs to all, even if we don’t always agree!!

        1. K says:

          My pleasure Joanne
          You have a principal role in this dynamic just as much as anyone else irrespective of the length of your ensnarement. Feel free to comment on my comments or disagree with me. It is all good. Hugs right back at you!

        2. WhoCares says:


          I just wanted to chime in here:

          “It came up the other day that my entanglement was brief (something that I’ve been completely up front about since coming here) but it’s had me thinking that I don’t really have the experience or the “right” to comment on certain things.”

          First: abuse is abuse…everyone’s experience is a little different because we all have different wounds. Narcissists will hone in on our individual weaknesses to exploit them. Not all of us have the exact same weaknesses – so while we might want to compare and contrast the level of our abuse with the experience of others – we should not discount our own pain. It is all felt in the same pain centers in the brain.

          Second, I have felt the same as you; that I didn’t have the right to comment on another’s experience because I felt that their abuse was so vastly different or extensive in comparison to mine. In expressing feeling that way, you are demonstrating your compassion & sensitivity to such matters. I found, though, a couple of times that when I reached out to someone, despite feeling like I didn’t have the right to; that that person actually greatly appreciated that gesture.

          1. nunya biz says:

            Really great point, WC, I try to give space where I don’t feel a genuine understanding. I agree it is compassionate. But like you say, as you get to know, there is compassion in simply being supportive.

          2. WhoCares says:


            And absolutely:
            “But like you say, as you get to know, there is compassion in simply being supportive.”

          3. NarcAngel says:

            True, and glad you raised this as it bothered me when Joanne said that and it’s not the first time it has come up. This is a place for discussion not a contest. There will be different experiences and levels of abuse but we all share that and can learn from each other. I have learned plenty from people here who’s experiences are vastly different from mine. Credit to HG for the freedom and variety he allows in moderation that makes that possible and this place so successful.

          4. WhoCares says:


            True; it’s not the first time it’s come up.
            I’m constantly learning here from the contributions of others.
            I wholeheartedly agree with this:
            “Credit to HG for the freedom and variety he allows in moderation that makes that possible and this place so successful.”

          5. Joanne says:

            Thank you, WhoCares. I believe the brevity of my entanglement was pointed out for a well intentioned reason but it did lead me to that thinking. I agree that all abuse and trauma is valid and that each of our experiences help us to empathize with others, regardless of the length of time endured. And I do hope you’ll keep piling on and adding your comments as I personally always find them insightful and kind 🤗

          6. WhoCares says:

            Agreed, Joanne; all abuse and trauma is valid. That is something I have come to learn through my own entanglement and the shared experiences of others here.
            I appreciate your comments and thoughtful contributions as well!

          7. WhoCares says:

            Hi Joanne, K, nunya biz & NarcAngel,

            I’ve been thinking more on this subject and Joanne’s clear statement: “All abuse and trauma is valid.”

            And although I’ve learned much here; it is my own personal experience that has caused this to hit home for me.

            Years ago I went back to post-secondary studies, as a mature student, I needed to give up my apartment and find shared accommodations. I didn’t want to live with students who were fresh out of highschool; so I found a posting of another mature student looking for a housemate.

            We got along fine – in fact quite well; eventually she trusted me enough to share telling me of the abuse she experienced in her family of origin…it was horrific hearing what she had experienced, from about 3 or 4 years of age and on…it was something that I felt that I had no frame of reference for. And I recall thinking; what do you say to someone who experienced that? What can one possibly say to somehow make it better? And: how does someone come through that to later become a vibrant, contributing, caring member of society – because she certainly did; similarly, many here have also.
            At least I listened and validated that her experience was a horrible one…
            But at the time; I couldn’t help thinking how grateful I was that I didn’t have that kind of childhood experience…

            Concurrently, I was doing my studies (my friend was doing an honours Psych degree) and while I didn’t major in psychology, it made up the bulk of my courses. So, I was being educated about all the various psych studies including, naturally, learned helplessness (how this contributes to women staying in situations of abuse, etc.) – plus having learned of my housemate’s particular experience (she later went on to marry/divorce an abuser) – and in the back of my mind is the very clear message: “This would never happen to me…not *me*.”

            Fast forward many years later and I eventually go through what I went through with my ex…but I still, in the beginning, didn’t see it as ‘abuse’ – until it was clearly abuse. But I had no frame of reference for that particular type of abuse until I found HG’s work.

            And, in talking with my former housemate (we are still friends many years later) about my ex’s behaviour (and she works in social services so she hears abuse stories all the time) she exclaimed: “That sounds like such mindfucking, sociopathic behaviour…”

            But it’s all just narcissistic behaviours.

            That was a long-winded way to say that we all have preconceived notions of what “abuse” looks like and preconceived notions of what a “narcissist” looks like. And I’m very grateful to have found HG’s work because it connects all the dots.

          8. Joanne says:

            Thank you for sharing that. I’m sure your friend was relieved to allow herself to be open with you about her childhood. I’m sure that trust also helped form the bond that you still have now. Listening without judgement is a gift that not everyone has. So many people feel that when they’re on the receiving end of this information, that they’re expected to solve or analyze or respond with some opinion. No. Sometimes just allowing someone to talk while patiently listening is all that is needed. Of course most of us WILL be processing and analyzing internally but not everything is meant to be *spoken* as a response.

            That’s also why I was so bothered by the comment on my brief affair. The context of the article and my comments were not related to the timeframe of my situation, yet THAT was what this commenter latched on to. Where’s the value in that, really? I think it goes without saying that I’m grateful it was short and yes I am aware that many others go through so much worse. I digress…

            Getting back to your point about abuse. It is pretty frightening how even someone with a background in psychology or having taken many classes on the same can still find themselves in an abusive relationship. I recently read a memoir of a psychologist who was married to a narc psychiatrist and was abused for many years. Terrifying account! You think you know what it looks like, so you can avoid it. But that boiling frog metaphor is so accurate. It is so gradual. In my case, he was so wonderful in the beginning. I let my guard completely down, and fast! He groomed me so intensely and quickly. I couldn’t imagine how he would change 😒 The confusing thing is that I *did* have the first hand frame of reference in witnessing what went on in my own mother’s marriage.

            HGs work definitely connects the dots. And another thing for me is the deeper understanding of what makes this person tick – this person I share a childhood with, whose family I came to know, who looks and seems so “normal.”

            Thank you for this, WhoCares. And thank you HG. I’m glad we can openly share our experiences. It all ties in on some level to help us along.

          9. WhoCares says:


            This is a very perceptive statement:

            “So many people feel that when they’re on the receiving end of this information, that they’re expected to solve or analyze or respond with some opinion. No. Sometimes just allowing someone to talk while patiently listening is all that is needed. Of course most of us WILL be processing and analyzing internally but not everything is meant to be *spoken* as a response.”

            And providing the example of the memoir you read of a psychologist’s entanglement – plus the the analogy of the boiling frog; demonstrate you understand the dynamic thoroughly and how an entanglement occurs and is insidious in it’s advancement.

          10. Joanne says:

            Thank you, WhoCares. A real understanding is important to me, whether it’s understanding my own experiences or those of others. I think, as far as narcissism goes, that is why so many will stay around and keep reading this blog, even after they’ve moved on…simply to deepen their understanding ❤️

          11. WhoCares says:


            Re: staying on the blog – I very much agree with your reason for continuing to read.

          12. K says:

            Thank you for sharing that with us. Your comment is a window into your world which allows us to experience it through your eyes and that is how we learn to better understand each other and, in some ways, ourselves.

            Before finding narcsite, I was very confused and had no idea what I was dealing with; physical and sexual abuse is so blatant that people readily accept it, however, psychological/emotional abuse isn’t always easy to recognize and people can suffer in silence for years, alone and isolated.

            Now, the dots are all connected; I recognize narcissists and the manipulations they use, I am in control and I feel much safer because of it. What a relief!

          13. WhoCares says:


            You’re so right; about getting a “window” view into someone’s personal experience allows us to better understand that person – and ourselves. That’s the power we have as empaths – when that power isn’t being misused.

            And sadly, it’s true about people suffering in silence and isolation for years…I certainly know of some of those individuals in my personal life – and they’re gone now. I wish they had had access to this kind of information when they were alive.

          14. K says:

            Those “windows” allow us to travel to other worlds and feel the experiences of another and that is how we connect. Joanne is right, empathy is, in part, an unspoken language and listening without judgment is essential to understanding someone else’s perspective and, when empaths use that power, we can help others heal and move forward.

            No one should have to suffer in silence and we have to keep spreading the word about HG and narcsite. It is an uphill battle but empaths are tenacious, after all.

          15. WhoCares says:




          16. nunya biz says:

            That is so true, WC. Your housemate sounds like a lovely, tenacious and intelligent person.

            I took me most of my life to discover and somewhat admit my mother is a narcissist. Followed by understanding that made my sister a narcissist. That was only by reading mentions of things online about triangulating and scapegoating, that’s it. But what a trip trying to figure the rest of things out and learning about myself. You are so right about Joanne’s point, abuse is abuse and it all has elements in common.

            Joanne, the thing I was thinking most after reading your last comment on this topic is that if you escaped that’s great and I’m happy for you about that. That’s the point. There isn’t really another, better point. That you stay no contact and that you aren’t hoovered and you don’t fall for false contrition. And also that there isn’t a next time and you don’t victimize your own self. I actually remember reading you mentioning the length of your entanglement at one point and then later reading a few brief comments of yours and thinking “for sure he was a narcissist”. But if you don’t understand it fully it will never make complete sense. I think so many people end up in another, *seemingly* completely different situation (shape-shifters, I swear), still trying to prove they can fix it or that it wasn’t right or that the truth will prevail (it won’t). I love the “ridiculous statements” post for understanding.

          17. WhoCares says:

            nunya biz,

            “Your housemate sounds like a lovely, tenacious and intelligent person.”

            She is – although our lives have taken us on different travels and kilometers apart – we have kept in touch over the years.

            And when it came down to it; she made time for me and just listened (when I reached out to her through messenger) exactly at the same time that my ex was situated himself outside where I was staying…for four hours plus…eventually making requests of me by text. I was distrustful of him and was struggling with giving in to his requests. And I needed to talk with someone…so while he was out there I was connecting online with her and telling her what was going on that moment – plus what had lead up to it. She didn’t understand narcissism and I didn’t understand narcissism – but she was familiar with cycles of abuse and understood that the most dangerous time is after you leave the relationship.
            When she told me this I took her counsel to heart and I ignored him. He eventually left.
            I have never been so thankful for someone’s ability to just mostly listen…but it also took me being perceptive enough to realize that I needed to reach out for help.

          18. nunya biz says:

            WC, I’m so glad you had someone to talk to in that moment. A really valuable thing, to have a listener when you need it, especially to talk you down when about to do something stupid! Crisis moments are pivotal with ET, I would have struggled, I bet I would have gone to the door just to calm my nerves and that’s how it continues. Just to have some conclusion.

            It is really hard for most people to reach out, I struggle with feeling I have the right to talk about my problems often. But also some people are terrible listeners, so a really good one is a relief. I just spoke to a male friend yesterday about some things that are driving me nuts as they’re happening now (he offered first) and he was analytical about it, which I expected. No big deal, but not helpful at all. He was zooming in on the accuracy or interpretation of details I was saying and not focusing on the point. And some things are just not understandable to him. I’m just mad about a constellation of problems and he’s considering if each problem is valid or not separately.

            Several weeks ago a girlfriend listened for awhile and I normally don’t go into problems around her and if I do with someone I can usually try to stay objective about it and not just dump on someone. She gave me great emotional feedback and I felt much better at least temporarily rather than like I needed to defend my perspective.

          19. WhoCares says:

            nunya biz,

            I’m so glad you also have someone in your personal life that you can reach out to…and that you’re also here reading and sharing – I find your contributions very valuable and insightful.

          20. nunya biz says:

            Oh thanks, WC, I enjoy your posts always.

    3. nunya biz says:

      The thing I like most is that most people are simply expressing their opinion and not pushing anyone else. I feel patient about waiting for other people to share their opinion and perspective for a more complete picture of whatever the topic of the thread is and people bring up things I haven’t thought of. Everyone has the right to change their mind (or not). Having that process forced or manipulated feels very bad because it assumes you can’t do it yourself, don’t have more complex thoughts than you said in a few sentences, or don’t have an individual right. That sucks. Often posters will start to nuance their own view into something more complete as they access more pieces of their already formed opinion in their mind… memories, concepts, etc… that they weren’t thinking about all the way yet or they add more nuances. nobody who makes a post is saying their ENTIRE opinion in a paragraph and you don’t have to qualify every thought you have. It really shouldn’t be any big deal and it’s pretty easy for someone to say “I feel differently because x,y,z” and give other people their own license to consider it or not.
      I think other sites feel negative to some people but that shouldn’t stop anyone who gets a benefit. I have had negative experiences with narcs in so many environments that I’ve resorted to setting up my life in a way that places narc exposure in a way I can handle it at my current ability level, which just NOW. And honestly, I can get reactive to even narcissistic manipulations from a non-narc. I assume that I have at various times in my life BEEN THAT PERSON to someone else as well.
      I handle most of it ok in daily interactions *because* I set things up for me to do so. I have my life specifically set up so that most of the time if a narc starts bothering me I can walk away within a reasonable amount of time. It costs me some things, but it is worth it to me. There are a ton of strong women on here who have developed other leverage so that they can make choices in different ways. I admire that. And everyone’s tolerance level is so different. Some days my tolerance is higher than others also and I sometimes handle things exceptionally well. I am learning to balance things better with more understanding, so that’s a plus. And my skin is thicker where I used to be hurt more deeply in some instances where I am emotionally involved. Still hurts sometimes and always will and I’m proud of that, but at least I can be preemeptive.

      1. Joanne says:

        Very well said –> “Often posters will start to nuance their own view into something more complete as they access more pieces of their already formed opinion in their mind… memories, concepts, etc… that they weren’t thinking about all the way yet or they add more nuances. nobody who makes a post is saying their ENTIRE opinion in a paragraph and you don’t have to qualify every thought you have.”

        I also agree with you on the level of strength amongst the commenters here. All interesting viewpoints and very often it’ll provoke me to consider something I’d not initially thought of. I guess it’s the empathic superpower we have in being able to accept and respect that there are other perspectives than just our own 🙂

  7. Claire says:

    It’s an odd collaboration.. Do they know they are each narcissists?

    1. E. B. says:

      Claire, they don’t.
      Since they are MRNs, they do not have introspection. When confronted, they will deny, deflect or blame the troublemaker who dares to question their behaviour, apart from smearing him/her to other moderators and members. Psychology terms are used to berate him/her. These MRN will also change their behaviour by becoming ‘very sweet and compassionate’ towards those who have not recognized them for who they really are.

      MRN members strive to become forum moderators or administrator to feel powerful and exert control.

  8. Still Hurt& Confused says:

    This is a reply to K’s comment down below. There was no ‘reply’ button directly below her comment.
    K, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I stand by my original comments.

    1. Narc noob says:

      Hi Still hurt and Confused, I read a bit of your commenting the other night. Couldn’t find a reply button but agreed with your opinion that it might not be so wise to flex vulnerabilities here and call anyone master. Probably due to some codependent tendency and a cult I was born into but still, good to be aware and back ourselves before we venture out into the dark

      1. Still Hurt& Confused says:

        Hi Narc noob,
        I think it’s important to remain vigilant and not just accept what someone is telling you as the gospel truth, whether that’s HG or anyone else.

        1. Narc noob says:

          Absolutely! No one person has all the answers. When it’s time to move, to greener pastures, it’s time. 👍

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I have them.

          2. K says:

            You most certainly do.

          3. Mercy says:

            Haha you crack me up Tudor!

    2. K says:

      Still Hurt& Confused
      Wrong again. My comment wasn’t an opinion, it was an observation of social mores.

      You were indirect and passive aggressive.

      1. Still Hurt& Confused says:

        In your opinion.

        1. K says:

          Still Hurt& Confused
          You were indirect, that is a fact, not an opinion.

          Who are the fervent fans? The self-aware and above it all? Or those who believe they are further along in their recovery than they actually are, and who are the judges of the “slowpokes” and who are the “I can’t believe they still don’t get it” mentality.

          The posters here are learning how to identify the narcissists and empaths in their lives so they can learn how to protect themselves and form healthy relationships while you are here labelling the bloggers in a passive aggressive manner.

          It is very clear that you are still hurt and confused.

          1. Narc noob says:

            That last line was playing the man, not the ball. 😐

          2. K says:

            Narc noob
            Still Hurt& Confused did a superb job of playing the man.

            Making passive aggressive judgments about the posters on narcsite displays a superficial understanding of the reader. It is important to read their comments and try to understand them rather than labelling them in an unhelpful fashion.

          3. Still Hurt& Confused says:

            Would it really be helpful to name names at this point? Two of those people have ammended their comments and/or apologised in this particular thread. However, the judgemental “we know the truth, and the only truth about narcissism is this blog, and this blog alone”. The “now you have all the knowledge you need, you really have no excuse and you shouldn’t be stuck at a certain stage” mentality does exist here. Those poor sods elsewhere will never be as enlightened as we are .We of course have the best guide, and that is HG. Another example further down below, people making fun of other people such as Sam Varking (spelling?) what view should I take on that? A group of people making fun of the competition and gushing over how much better HG is. He might be, he might not be. Depends on your perspective. Accusations of who is and isn’t a Narcissist, based on a few online interactions. It goes on. You think you are learning how to spot Narcissists and Empaths? Says who? Perhaps you are learning how to spot certain patterns of behaviour at best. Again, I stand by my words. And again, these are my opinions and views based on what I have observed here. I didn’t and don’t want to call out specific people because it’s not just them. It’s a shared, almost hive-like mentality. If you don’t see it that way, that’s fine. If you want to continue interacting on this site, that’s fine. If you want to share HG’s work, that’s fine. Up to you. Just be careful not to go down a slippery slope of replacing one narcissistic dynamic/addiction with another. Wasn’t there a letter from a reader who admitted that she/he became obsessed with HG. It’s very obvious that some people really get a kick out of interacting with HG. K, I hope my reply was direct enough for you. I don’t know you and your views and opinions don’t really bother me. You don’t know me, and my opinions and views shouldn’t bother you either. If they do, ask yourself why.

          4. K says:

            Still Hurt& Confused
            Fact: you were indirect and passive aggressive.

          5. Twilight says:

            Still Hurt & Confused

            Why do I have a feeling I am one of those you are speaking of.

          6. Joanne says:

            It’s me, for sure.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Twilight, I definitely am, I actually said Sam Vaknin seemed to me like Rainman on crack. I was not trying to offend Rainman, he’s just a character, or Vaknin. Just stating the fact that his delivery of the information is way too technical, robotic, and detached from the audience and it is painful to listen to him, and I tried to make a joke, period. Still Hurt and Confused, when you throw an accusation like that and then refuse to give names, everyone feels guilty and hurt by default. I take responsibility for what I said, and I don’t care really, but other people may be wondering what they did or if they indeed hurt anyone inadvertently. I don’t recall any moment though when anyone here chastised another member for not recovering fast enough, quite the contrary, all I’ve seen is a lot of support and a lack of judgmental opinions for the most part. Many of us are still battling the narc addiction -me included- and every little step with have given towards implementing NC or ignoring hoovers etc has been celebrated by all of us; other times, when one of us has fallen into the narc’s trap again, we have offered words of support and mutual understanding. But I have also seen that every now and then there’s a dissenting figure who accuses us all of being fans of HG or cheerleaders or blind followers of a cult guru or whoknowswhat. In my attempt to figure out what was being done to me, I read many people, including Vaknin, Melania Tonia Evans, Christiane Northrup, Leyla Loric and Grannon Richard, Jane Aniston, Shahida Arabi, Jackson Mackenzie, JH Simon, JB Snow, and authors in other languages, including my own cousin who is a psychiatrist that works with victims of abuse. And the only one who has really opened my eyes and made me have an AHA! moment has been Tudor. So call it fanaticism, infatuation, whatever you want. I know to me it is just true help, and in top of everything, he is an excellent writer and has a sense of humor, which not many people do possess.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            And no, I don’t think Jane Aniston is Jen’s secret sister who writes about narcs. But, who knows?

          9. nunya biz says:

            Why might your comments bother people? Because many here are sensitive to indirect communication and gaslighting and gate-keeping for good reason.

            Are you sure that instead of “ammended or apologized” you do not mean “clarified”?

            Several people have said they think you are mentioning them indirectly, I was very surprised just now to think it might be me as well. You might want to consider why that is. You are speaking to individuals. As in unique, separate people with some overlapping traits and some almost opposing traits and everything in between. No person here shares all of my opinions, not one.

            For my part, I prefer HG’s blog due to personal sensitivity that I am not proud of but aware of and have an absolute need for and I know partially why. Even on this blog, I have to remove myself periodically. In part when I bring up those things it is so that people reading my comments can form a picture of me that informs their suggestions where I need assistance or support.
            I’m starting to wonder if there’s another agenda somewhere tbh. I don’t understand why someone else’s opinion threatens yours. I can clearly say the only time someone else’s threatens mine is when their opinion is that my opinion is something different than it actually is. Since I’m pretty sure I know.

          10. NarcAngel says:


            “I don’t understand why someone else’s opinion threatens yours. I can clearly say the only time someone else’s threatens mine is when their opinion is that my opinion is something different than it actually is. Since I’m pretty sure I know.”

            Not related specifically to this particular instance, but yes, THAT all day long.

          11. nunya biz says:

            NA, yeah not related to the specific conversation, I get a stomach ache over it, it’s funny how we can get a learned reaction to that kind of thing.

        2. WhoCares says:

          Hello Still Hurt&Confused,

          I have to be honest in saying that some of your comments bothered me as well in the way that K has expressed. But I decided to overlook them – one, because I was enjoying reading the exchange between you and FYC; two, because I took an interest in your mention of the ‘psychology of disappointment’; three, because I thought perhaps you are new and you were basing your observations on a few isolated comments – but, mostly four – I didn’t want to base my judgement of you upon an isolated exchange and not knowing your story or your stage of healing. (Which is what you were doing in your own observations of the behaviour of others.)

          You may want to revisit your own words:

          “Some people are trying to simplify a very complex and ultimately personal (for each and everyone of us) issue. As FYC pointed it out, there are many dynamics at play.”

          So I have to say that I agree with K and her statement that it is not helpful to jump to conclusions based on:

          ” a superficial understanding of the reader. It is important to read their comments and try to understand them rather than labelling them in an unhelpful fashion.”

          And if conversations that are deeply personal and complex are more your cup of tea, there’s plenty of those too – if you look for them.

          1. K says:

            Your comment is an excellent example of honest and helpful feedback and I agree with everything you wrote. Thank you.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you K.

            I have learned a lot about what is helpful and what is not, while being on this blog.

  9. Mercy says:

    HG, I never stray. Your site is the only one I belong to and I already know you’re a narcissist.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Mercy and your loyalty is appreciated and will prove its own reward. I am clear about what I am, I treat people politely and fairly in this place and therefore nobody has anything to be concerned about. On the contrary, they have much to gain and the combination of the calibre of my information combined with the blog dynamic means that it is superior and safer than other places.

      1. Narc noob says:

        Hi HG. I found you after I edited a friend’s blog about codependents, BPD and narcs… I also had some personal things going on with two MRN and a situation I had never before encounted. I am so pleased I skimmed quickly through Google, listened to a few utubes and then settled on narcsite!. Haven’t looked back.

        Kudos to you 🙏👍

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Excellent choice, but we both knew that already.

          1. santaann1964 says:

            Your too funny ! Love the confidence ❤️

      2. Mercy says:

        HG, I agree. I was thinking about this the other day when you replied to a question about your relationship with SM. You stated that it’s harder for you to go against your natural instincts in the relationship. It would’ve been easy for you to reply saying that you are having no problems or are finding the change to be easy. You are a greater, you’re aware and we’ve come to trust you so we would believe you. Your honesty reminded me why I’m here and strengthened my trust in your work. Huge respect!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Mercy. I always respond honestly across my social media platforms, in consultation and e-mails. Why is that? Because nobody knows who I am, so I can do so. Those who think that I cannot help but manipulate because of what I am, are wrong, I understand why they form that view, but they must remember I am not a stupid man and I do what is best and here that means be honest. There is nothing to be gained in manipulating my readers.

          1. TY says:

            For the record, if we met in real life, you could still do the same as I do not judge you; do not want anything from you (other than more of your works here); I am shielded by your teachings and as a result am F.R.E.E. I also have a healthy fear/respect of you (no offense intended) so I would not have any delusions. You are appreciated as is. Thank you for your honesty and all that you offer.

        2. Lou says:

          HG, if it is harder for you to go against your natural instincts in your relationship with SM, does that mean you have already been tempted to manipulate/provoke her? Have you done it already?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No and no.

      3. TY says:

        HG, You are the first, last and only safe narcissist we will ever interact with in life, and of course the most brilliant. Thank you for giving us the rarest of experiences.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are most welcome TY.

      4. santaann1964 says:

        Correct H, knowledge is power. You know what I’m waiting for so I have my 3rd question to ask you. I’m waiting patiently!
        Thank you so much for what you do. Gratitude is a very good feeling of the empaths. I am grateful! And idc if you capitalize off of me. Just saying . You are doing Gods work whether you think so or not. 😘

    2. Still Hurt& Confused says:

      @K: I don’t think I have anything further to add. Good luck to you.
      @Narc noob: don’t worry about it. K’s words/views/opinions do not bother me.
      @Twilight: They were not. From what I could see, you were defending someone from another site. I have noted that you and the person you had the disagreement with have since made up and the matter has been clarified and resolved.

      I stand by all my words. I don’t claim to speak for anyone but myself. This is what I have observed, this is my perspective. If I don’t respond to any further comments, my apologies in advance, as I will stop checking this thread and I haven’t clicked the email notifications button.

  10. Anm says:

    IMO, Narcsite is not a support forum. My opinion is also that Narc victims limit their time in support forums, and keep it off their social media feeds.

  11. Narc noob says:

    HG, are some of my posts getting deleted? I see “pingback”and I know I have commented on a certain blog but it’s not showing up. I’m just asking questions really.

    You know my situation, hope you can read between the lines!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      As already stated, no they are not being deleted. They sit in moderation NN, please see the rules of the site.

      1. Narc noob says:

        Thanks HG. Best I go check the rules out then! I didn’t see that button, yet.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not a problem.

      2. Narc noob says:

        I’m sorry, perhaps you have answered that question above already, or someone else asked and I haven’t seen it?

        I remember writing my question beforehand, along with another one regarding examples for MSE. I kept asking as I hadn’t seen a response. I see that it has showed up on the magnet empath 3 times now! Major OOPS.


    2. FYC says:

      NN, Pingback mean a link has been created on someone else’s blog to HG’s blog and has no relevance to the comments.

      1. flutterbymorpho says:

        Thanks FYC I wondered what pingback was about 🙂

        1. FYC says:

          No worries 😉

      2. Narc noob says:

        Thanks FYC. Noob all around here!

  12. cb says:

    “Lack of authenticity”

    Yes, what I notice about the ones that probably have NPD themselves
    is that they can quickly digress to mostly talk about the abstract.

    “Narcissism on a Corporate level,”

    “Narcissism on a Society level.”

    “My current phone company is behaving very narcissistically”

    (empathic members might also mention society, but they keep it brief)

    Very confusing and quite tiresome to listen to abstract tirades, for other members of that forum, who actually try to vent the odd behaviours of certain individuals.

    It’s almost as if that SFF admin recognizes the described behaviours of narcissism within herself,
    shivers, and changes the subject to “society” by knee-jerk.

  13. Renarde says:

    A very timely piece HG. I’ve only just experienced this myself and funnily enough, HG was also involved.

    So I had been lurking in a FB narc support group. After a while, I start to post (there are a lot and I mean a lot of very daft ideas going on in that group.).

    One day, I notice that a particular poster had lifted not one but two articles wholesale from narcsite without a- giving the title or b- crediting HG. I do credit HG in the thread AND I mail HG with the links so he can sort it.

    About a week or so later a woman comes out with an idea that it would be great to meet up. As HG cautioned us, I cautioned her. The admin of that group – hitherto pretty unknown – also cautions about safety. I message her to thank her for her support. An hour later – we are still chatting. I ask her a very specific question, how many mods have you? She bats it away.

    A few days ago, the very same poster who had lifted HG’s own work posts. Her abuser ex had died from suicide a month ago and she was asked to give an eulogy. I was short for time but didn’t want to read and run. My response ‘Don’t do it; it’s highly inappropriate’.

    Imagine my surprise therefore when the owner of the group rounds on me for being judgmental!

    Well – She get’s nipped – and hard. And she backs off. But not before she turns on another woman who had supported me. We then start chatting.

    I then find another thread which had comments turned off where there is ‘obviously a narc among us – she’s a writer and way too nice – let’s expose her’. Good job comments had been turned off because I would have mauled them. I note that it is largely males in that thread.

    So… what do I think. Yup. That entire group is one giant pity party for the narc admin. She/he has no intention of enabling healing for ANYONE as it’s way too much fun allowing them all to wallow in their own misfortune. It’s a great shame as there are some really damaged individuals there. Anyone who get’s too close to giving decent advice is got shut of.

    Further evidence of this came from the chat I had with the admin where she revealed that she was still with the narc. A few days after that she posts these long letters (complete with youtube links) that she had just mailed said abuser. The exact opposite of a true NC. I almost posted but what would the point have been? I daresay that poor guy has been on the receiving end for years and will continue to be so.

    And if THAT wasn’t enough, another poster starts a thread asking if anyone knew about the different classes of empath. Sure says I, what do you want to know?

    Turns out, it wasn’t about empaths, it was about how well I knew HG himself. On an on this bloody woman went until I snapped and asked her, ‘The point of this is?’. And she backed off.

    And I didn’t even get to tell her about his glowing Sith umbrella. Pity.

    1. Twilight says:


      “And if THAT wasn’t enough, another poster starts a thread asking if anyone knew about the different classes of empath. Sure says I, what do you want to know?

      Turns out, it wasn’t about empaths, it was about how well I knew HG himself. On an on this bloody woman went until I snapped and asked her, ‘The point of this is?’. And she backed off.”

      I saw that thread and yes I belong to that group

      Are you saying she is a narcissist?

      I think she was trying to clear picture of your meaning of you talk to him right out of the gate you made no mention of being a Super Empath which is what the thread was about not about how you talk to him.

      1. Renarde says:

        Knock it off Twilight. You had a pop at me last summer if I recall correctly. And HG too if memory serves.

        I have CLEARLY said that I have no idea if that poster is or isn’t.

        But for the record I am going to say this now.

        I deliberately chose to spare the blushes of that FB group Admin. I could have done – I didn’t.

        There are many groups on FB. Many. I am only a member of that one and this one but I do post to a vanilla group from time to time.

        In this instance, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt. It’s ‘happenstance’ that we were both members of that group.

        If however, you are deliberately stalking me; be warned. I don’t take kindly to that.

        I dearly hope that it is that motherfucker called ‘serendipity’ at fault. If not. You now know my personal view.

        Don’t you?

        1. Twilight says:


          Our paths crossed nothing more.

          Last summer you were stating your opinion as fact that all doctors are the same. Along with stating you know 4 Greaters and one was an GEN whom spoke of his perspective with you.

          He made a comment he didn’t realize you two were friends by the way you were wording your comments about the GEN. And what do you know you stopped mentioning about all your interactions with these Greaters.

          Interesting you state by your memory I made a pop at HG, never have I done such a thing in the almost 3 years I have been here.

    2. kathy0720 says:

      Question—if we copy a link to HG’s articles his credit is automatic isn’t it? It’s identifiable where it came from?.. (it’s connected to his site, etc)
      I left all the narcissist support groups on FB. Was in several—the benefit outweighed the time involved in sorting through the material. You are correct—the many “daft” ideas are vast but it’s people basically parroting bad information or applying empathic interpretations to behavior. We have a better teacher.

      1. Renarde says:

        No Kathy. Although I get your point.

        You need to run it past the big guy himself. I cannot answer for him but if I were you, I would ask him before I posted.
        Hope that helps x

        1. Claire says:

          Thanks Renarde. HG—are copied links ok or do you prefer more?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I have no problem with the link being copied to my work. It is where people reproduce my work without attributing it to me (and do so without seeking my permission) where HG Gets Legal On Their Asses!

      2. Twilight says:


        You copy the link from narcsite it gives all the information of where and who wrote the article.
        I post many of HGs articles on various sites and when I come across one who hasn’t credited him The articles usually come down quickly due to mods and admins who are actually trying to help and make sure people have the correct information.

        1. Claire says:

          I do—I’m not sure what I didn’t communicate by copying the link.. It’s easy—click poof! Lol

    3. Twilight says:


      You didn’t say
      “Sure says I, what do you want to know?”
      You said
      “He’s an ace. I talk to him. Well worth it.”

      I went back and looked at that thread it stood out.

      So please explain how this person is a narcissist from that one encounter of yours with her?

      FYI I actually know her in my real life. She has also consulted with HG and he has told her she is an empath.

      Where is your proof she is a narcissist? Just because you say doesn’t make it so and you are not that good at spotting them as you claim to be.

      1. Renarde says:

        There were two threads actually.

        Never said that woman was a narc. I suspect the admin is though.

        1. Twilight says:


          And if THAT wasn’t enough, another poster starts a thread asking if anyone knew about the different classes of empath. Sure says I, what do you want to know?

          Turns out, it wasn’t about empaths, it was about how well I knew HG himself. On an on this bloody woman went until I snapped and asked her, ‘The point of this is?’. And she backed off.”

          That was one thread and not two different threads. Keep your facts straight.

          You change facts about things, you make it look as if you snapped at her and she backed off, which wasn’t the case. You did have a perfect opportunity to speak highly of HGs consults and how helpful they can be due to the change of course that thread took, now could she have done the same, most definitely.

          This thread here and this specific article is about narcissist running support forums to which your comment can be taken as you speaking from experience dealing with others on a different group and their behaviors as being narcissistic.
          You insinuate you can spot a narcissist not just here yet there to.

          If I have observed gaslighting, bullying, provoking from others in other groups and they wish to join the group I am one of the moderators it get stoped at the gate never getting a chance to enter and stir the pot. We also provided many links here to gain the knowledge HG provides.

          . I speak about HG in many areas why I leave here, I have no fear to go at it with a narcissist that is running a support forum especially if it causes victims to see and possibly come here for accurate information on HGs kind.

          So you can say heaven help those who come to that group, yet we work hard to keep narcissists out and provide a place to heal and information on where to go to get accurate information.

          1. Renarde says:

            Thank you for reminding me about the details of last summer. I remember thinking then that this person is taking way to much interest in what I was posting.

            Forgive me, but was it not you that had a flounce and accused HG of holding back your comments in moderation. I seem to recall it was…

            As to the FB group – again – why on earth are you so interested? Why are you so fascinated with my behaviour.

            Your ‘friend’ starts a thread asking on the four empathic schools. I respond saying what do you want to know?

            That same poster pops up again on another thread just after I say WTE ‘Yes, he’s ace’. She then goes around the houses with me asking variations of the same question. I found THAT to be intrusive. I then ask her, ‘Is there a point to this?’. As far as I was aware, she didn’t respond.

            Satisfied now?

            I and another woman were trolled by a MRA yesterday in that group. She blocks him, I take screenshots and lo and behold, today I find I was removed.

            So….if you are in that group, my question to you is this. If you say that you credit HG properly, did you not ALSO report that two of his writings had been stolen by an avatar named ‘Naz’ I think?

            Finally, the Greater comment. If I did not post anymore about Greaters (again, you checked?) it was because I had nothing to say. I was still confused about a lot of things at that time and I was busy sorting it out in my own head. I hardly think that’s a crime. Do you?

            I tell you what though, you admitting to witnessing ‘attention seeking behaviour’.

            Well – you’re wrong. But you are keeping tabs on me, aren’t you? Stalking? Much? Am I going to have a problem with you?

            Your behaviour ‘pinged’ me back in summer as being odd. Now it’s downright weird.

            If you claim to know me so well, then you will know how many times I direct people here. Or how many people thank you me, publicly and privately.

            All I see from you is someone who continues to attack me for no reason at all that I can see.

            My comment ’20 paces’ – you don’t half like to twist things, do you? A forum mod should be able to spot a narc otherwise they really should’t be in that position because they cannot keep the group safe.

            I stand by that comment.

            Can I spot one? Sometimes, usually but I’m no expert which is why I have a blanket rule of never calling one out. You just pay them the rope and they will do it for you…

          2. HG Tudor says:

            For the sake of accuracy, Twilight did not flounce, nor has she ever attacked me.

          3. Renarde says:

            Apologies. I’ve conflated two profiles.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Quite alright.

          5. Renarde says:

            To Twilight

            Actually, I have just realised that this thread is the perfect one where I can actually say my piece. I’m directing this to you because you seem so fascinated with me AND because alkthough someone, a regular, said that they didn’t perceieve this forum to be a support forum par se.

            I actually DO agree with that poster but sometimes events prove different.

            Twilight, the reason why I was so confused last summer is that in that March, I tried to commit suicide. Why? A number of reasons but the main one being that my ex-husband – a narc, never loved me. Almost my entire adult life was a sham. Have you any idea what that feels like? Because then I knew I had lost my children. The thought tipped me over the edge.

            I have read pretty much all of HG’s stuff but whenever the subject came to children – I skipped the chapter. Why? I was in denial. Looking back on it now, I can see THAT was avoidance on my part and it should have raised a huge black flag to me. IF I had paid attention, I may have conducted myself differently.

            I did believe he was a Greater – that is true. I couldn’t perceive how he had hid it from me for so many years. Heavens, we were children when we met at uni. We grew up together. The consult I had with HG I said to him ‘You know, I still can’t belive it? 18 years!’ I was consulting with him BTW Ms nosybonk precisely over the children and how the family court system is fucking me over, abusing the children and also me.

            To NS itself. A lot of the regulars really fucking stepped up a few weeks ago when I had my DWP mental assessment. They were messaging me when I was waiting for the interview. An interview in which I had to go over the suicide AND abuse (including rape and physical assault).

            I’m a SEM and I take a lot of flack for that. But until your comment intimating I am a narc, I had NEVER been labelled as such here.

            But of course, you would know all of this as you watch me so closely.

          6. Twilight says:


            Yes I actually do understand what it is like to know not being loved by your husband. I was a child that made a poor decision because my mentor had died a couple of years prior and I wanted to feel loved I ended up pregnant and forced to marry him..

            This man forced me to experience others tormented and tortured, I felt everything they went through. I was raped not only by my husband yet another, I fought and was beaten for it. I have had guns put to my head and the trigger pulled, knives at my throat, burnt…..I was well aware my husband would have had my children murdered if I had left and get away with it. When I finally had the strength to leave he drugged me until I was addicted. I dealt with his family isolating me, encouraging him when he went into a rage, taunting and provoking me to react. The children….it was me against them and I couldn’t protect them. No one would listen no one would lift a finger to help.
            When my husband died I was free and ,the reality of life hit me hard and I took my life, I died and it is a fucking miracle I am here today.

            What kept me away from my ex was the fact I was pregnant and I would never let my child be raised again in that situation. I lost my child due to what my ex put me through and that pushed me over the edge to desire him to feel the pain I felt. When things were said and done, He left me to die literally and figuratively, I ended back in the hospital needing a blood transfusions and emergency surgery. My doctor didn’t know how I even made it to the emergency room I should have already passed out from blood loss. While I lay in the hospital bed I decided to use my energies to rebuild, it wasn’t easy and I did it alone. I had no family or friends support back then.

            I have overcome more obstacles then you can even imagine, so yes I do understand.

            When your comments cross my path I read them, I don’t look for you here on the blog or elsewhere. I did find your comments last summer interesting I was raised by a GEN and fully aware of what he was capable of, via witnessing the breaking of another’s mind till they were left in a primal state. They have recovered yet they will never come close to who they were before. So yes reading you had a GEN outside of this blog you spoke with talk of his perspective, I thought two things the first was my ex was open in his perspective with me it is how he ensnare me second was I never heard of it outside of a romantic situation with the exception of HG and it being kept platonic. What my grandfather did was to ensure the outcome was what he desired and that was for me to be returned and stay within his custody and not my fathers.

            If I believe your a narcissist 100% I will be direct about it and tell you such.

            I am seeing much misinterpretation between us and emotional thinking becoming an issue.

          7. Renarde says:

            Thank you Twilight for opening up and sharing your story. THAT was a horrific read and I am so sorry that you experienced that.

            You were raised by a GEN? Wow! I cannot even imagine what that must have been like. My own parents are PN = MMR and MN = LVN. I escaped by going to Uni – enter what I perceive now to be a UMR stage right.

            As I said, it was a profound shock to the system and I assumed, wrongly, that he must be aware of his actions? Surely?

            The ‘Is the MR’ writing about at the moment is a very good read. It tackles that very question, when they hurt you and you see them smirk? They know, right?

            I made a fundamental error last summer in that I assumed that the boundary of awareness was fuzzy. I believe it was HG himself that gave my head a wobble on that one. I puzzled and puzzled over it. That lead to me wondering if I WAS a narc and then I was always justify my own NPD?

            That led to quite a few dark nights of the soul before I eventually concluded, no I wasn’t. But it caused me great consternation at the time. This was late last summer.

            I was forced to complete;ly rethink how I viewed NPD and as a result, quite a few got downgraded. One did but….very recently well I’m just really not sure. He could well be a GE. I’m not a 100% on that at all but it’s bothering me. So apart from consulting with HG and ‘The other’ that makes two.

            The fourth was a guy and AGAIN, he just seemed SO aware. But he can’t be. He even made jokes about ‘Hoovering’ FFS.

            IDK – All I can go on are behaviours. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing at times.

            However, talking in consultation with HG about narcs pairing up, he reminded me of a situation, House of Cards where the wife and husband are colluding, aiding and abetting in each others’ NPD. Now that led to some thinky thoughts.

            I perceive that we have much in common Twilight and I’m sorry for an misunderstanding on my behalf. I’d like to shake hands and move on, if you are willing?

          8. Twilight says:


            Misunderstanding and misinterpretation are key ingredients to many situations.

            Yes a shaking of hands And moving on.

          9. Renarde says:

            Thank you Twilight. I appreciate that.

          10. Twilight says:

            I apologize Renarde for my part in the misunderstanding.

          11. Renarde says:

            No worries x

          12. Twilight says:


            Thank you for clearing up the fact I have not attacked you.

  14. E. B. says:

    I agree with Aurora that survivors of narcissistic abuse may experience re-traumatization in support forums.

    There are different kinds of manipulations used by MRN admin and moderators. One of them is to provoke a targeted user to get fuel, thus an excuse to report him/her or throw this individual out of the forum.

    Another one is to report a post. The admin/moderator will delete a sentence or the whole post from their targeted user by accusing him/her of breaching the guidelines. The user receives an anonymous warning from ‘Support Forum Team’ – no names which of the moderators did it. Although there are instances when a member does something against the guidelines, I am not speaking about those cases.
    These admin/moderators will gaslight the target to justify their actions. Once they edit or delete a whole post, the target does not have the original post as evidence to reread and/or prove the contrary, unless they kept a copy. Targets may begin to doubt themselves.

    Also, some forums have a warning system. If a member had a couple of posts reported, his/her profile has a “WATCHED” label on it and a percentage. It makes members feel threatened. They know they can be thrown out of the forum anytime. MRNs must feel powerful using this intimidation tool.

  15. Sarah says:

    The truth has never looked, felt and tasted so good, Mr Chew-da. He IS the Messiah.

    1. Still Hurt& Confused says:

      He’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!

      Couldn’t resist!

      1. Sarah Jane says:


  16. Sarah says:

    The truth has never looked, felt and tasted so good Mr Chew-da. He IS the Messiah.

  17. santaann1964 says:

    But because of you we know who they are!
    When are you going to spleen about your mother? It’s the last piece of my puzzle. Then I am completely in my narcissist head!
    Good article! Thanks H

  18. inspire2bu says:

    I have joined a private group to which, HG you may have visited on a well known social media site. I have to admit….I have a very hard time reading all the posts. So many continue to play the victim role. I want to scream, “YOU DON’T HAVE TO STAY THE VICTIM NOW THAT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW!” I recommend GOSO often. I completely understand as I too stayed way over my time in an abusive narcissistic relationship due to our children and am finally finding my freedom, my voice, my choice! I believe they are helpful when used correctly. I also have seen narcs visiting and leaving their narcish comments. They never stay long.

    1. Joanne says:

      “Wallowing holes.” I wonder if we were in the same FB group. I had a hard time reading repetitive posts from the same people who were essentially refusing to educate themselves on what was happening to them, allowing themselves to be stuck in quicksand by way of their own chosen ignorance. While I agree commenting back, “go no content” in every scenario isn’t helpful, some very good advice was given. This sounds insensitive on my part and I don’t mean to come across that way but when this is going on for years and nothing is changing yet you’re in a support forum because you know you’re dealing with a narcissist- why are you still looking to change that person?! I always linked specific narcsite posts or screenshot excerpts from HGs books and was chastised by an admin for doing so. Tudor or Vaknin we’re not allowed on their site 🙄 Ok, good bye then.

      1. Joanne says:

        *no contact, not “no content”

      2. mommypino says:

        Joanne, I have heard of similar situations before where a commenter here was chastised for talking about HG so when I joined an ACoN support group I was slightly worried about talking about HG but I still mention him a lot when I explain the stuff that he teaches and when someone needs a narc detector and nobody has been upset at me yet. The ACoNs were actually so thankful that I informed them about the Narc Detector service and his books because they are desperately looking for answers. So I still go there also to help people who need HG’s services find HG. I believe that this is the only place where they can gain full understanding as to what is going on.

        1. Joanne says:

          LOL, even after getting my wrists slapped I did not stop mentioning HG. It was shocking to me that they did not know of him! What is ACoN?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for your perseverance Joanne, there will always be those who rail against my work (usually Mid Range Narcissists). An ACoN is an adult child of a narcissist.

          2. Joanne says:

            I will keep on spreading the word!

          3. mommypino says:

            Joanne, it’s Adult Children of Narcissists. Some of them know HG but but the ones that I talked to didn’t. A lot of them actually are not very knowledgeable about narcissism. One time I recomended a narc detector to a lady with a husband who refuses to open a joint account with her among other ignoring and controlling behaviors, a guy responded that it doesn’t matter if he’s a narcissist or not, she should fill out all of the paperwork for the joint account and have it ready that all that it needs is a signature from him and confront him and make him sign it because married people should have joint accounts. And I told her that it is important to know if he is a narc because narcs are different from us and she needs to know the right actions to take to protect herself. She liked my comment so hopefully she listened to me.

        2. Mercy says:

          Mommypino, I learned of HG from a commenter on another site. I was desperate for information (literally desperate). It was one small comment buried among many comments and post “the best information I’ve have found on this subject is on”. It was that comment that set me on my road to recovery.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            One small comment by that person, one giant leap in understanding for you.

          2. Mercy says:

            HG, yes!

          3. NarcAngel says:

            And THAT is how I believe we can help others – by paying it forward. There are some who use ‘cultish’ (and many other derogative terms) for those who promote HG’s work (it has been directed at me as well). They are entitled to think that way but I would say this:
            I have been very clear previously that although I am grateful to HG in providing clarity to me, that I do not know him personally, so do not benefit in any way other than through his work. In the same way that he has been honest in saying that he does not do this for us, that he does it for his own reasons and that we benefit indirectly, so too do I promote him. It is because I truly believe this is the most accurate and helpful information out there on narcissism and that exposure to it will help many others. I understand his reasons and he understands mine. He takes no offence to the fact that I do not do this for him but have my own reasons. I am crystal clear that although he may appreciate me doing so, that he does not care about me. I raise this because I think there are some who think: I will not be seen as helping a narcissist by promoting his work. My view is much like HG’s: That I do not do it for his benefit. I do it because the best information will get to those who need it and are searching just as I once was. If HG benefits from that indirectly so what? Why would I keep valuable information from victims and leave them floundering just to spite a narcissist? In that way they would be winning yet again.

          4. Mercy says:


            Well said! I’d like to add, most of the readers that strongly support HG do not do it blindly. We have done our research on other forums, been through therapy and pay close attention to any other information about this subject. We are truth seekers and this is no exception. What I read caught my attention, his method of teaching made me want to learn more. Throw in the support of his readers and it’s the perfect recipe for a successful site.

          5. nunya biz says:

            Agree, NA.

      3. Renarde says:

        Yes. And isn’t that intresting in itself? Vankin and Tudor. Two dark names. Unmentionables almost.
        I don’t know anything about Vankin. Tudor…I know a little about. Funny that.

        I get your point Joanne but I also think that largely the women who are targeted have lots of natural empathy but very often, they are not intelligent. By which, I mean they continue to make the same mistakes. Without correcting their behaviour. It’s very tough, mostly for them obviously but also because they are locked into the abusive dynamic.
        They just simply do not understand.
        And that’s precisely why they were chosen. It’s so fucking tough.
        Im a teacher and I had a great mentor when I was learning the nuts and bolts.
        It’s this; there is only one way out of this and it’s education.
        Thsys precisely what HG is doing.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It’s nothing to do with intelligence, it’s the power of emotional thinking.

          1. Claire says:

            Well I’m an emotional freaking dumbass then..

          2. FYC says:

            Quite true, HG.

            Renarde, I think there are several dynamics present. 1.) As HG states, the power of emotional thinking 2.) A external locus of control 3.) Trauma bond 4.) Lack of acceptance when knowledge is present. 5.) A desire to heal others.

            Education is critically important, but does not equate to the integration of such knowledge into behavioral change.

            If intelligence and knowledge were the only factors, HG could easily out smart his condition.

          3. Still Hurt&Confused says:

            FYC, thank you for posting such a logical reply. I agree completely. Having knowledge and awareness doesn’t magically heal you. If only that were the case!

            I think some people on this site claim to be so self-aware and above it all. I find myself wondering why they are still on here then? Shouldn’t they be out there forming real, healthy relationships, be they platonic or romantic, rather than going around labelling people as empaths or narcissists.

            -No, you’re the narcissist!
            -Nuh-uh! You’re the narcissist! I’m an X empath! I know this to be an indisputable fact! *blows raspberry*
            -HG, we love you! You da best! *throws underwear at the monitor*

            Some people are trying to simplify a very complex and ultimately personal (for each and everyone of us) issue. As FYC pointed it out, there are many dynamics at play. I would also like to point out another factor that is certainly at play for me, and that is the psychology of disappointment (and the effects it has on the brain, google it if you like) .One of the hardest things I’m finding is dealing with the disappointment that the risk I took didn’t pay off. And all the time, effort and emotional investment I made was for nothing. The disappointment that I simply was not enough for this person and never will be. The disappointment that he will likely never get better. And the fear that I will remain stuck and alone, always waiting for his return. Always hoping for a different outcome.

            I think a lot of us hang on because we don’t want to give up on our investment. We are still hoping, on some level at least, that it will work out and all the pain will have been worth it.

            I mean this in the nicest way, but I don’t want to be on this site forever. I want to move on and put this whole incident behind me. And no, I don’t think I’m better than anyone on here, far from it, but I did want to point out some of the BS that goes on around here. Sometimes it feels a bit cultish.
            Fight me, Bitches! (That was a joke! 😉)

          4. FYC says:

            Hello Still Hurt,

            I understand what you are saying regarding viewing your relationship as a loss of time and investment. But, a great deal of your struggle is the ego drawing a false conclusion. Your worth is never determined by another. If you give your love and time (and other things) to another, it is important to do so freely. That way, when someone revels themself to you, you can disengage knowing you were true to you and the rejection of the other reveals more about him. I guarantee you lost nothing but time. You gained your freedom and the opportunity to have a healthy relationship. We all have a choice to be bitter or be better, and while painful, choose the latter and you will increase your self esteem.

            As for your comments about others, why do you care? Exercise compassion. Take the high road. Anything less detracts from your progress. I wish you healing and freedom from your pain.

          5. FYC says:

            Hello,Still Hurt, Thank you for expanding upon your experience. I believe you are still in grief over your loss. Not the loss of a narcissist, but the perceived loss of your hopes and dreams you attached to that narcissist.

            The trouble with expectations is they are poisonous to even healthy relationships. You can navigate a relationship more effectively when you know your values, recognize when they are violated and take the appropriate action in support of your values instead of hoping things will improve. “When someone revels themselves to you believe them.” (A Maya Angelou quote, and a good one.)

            I also suspect you have grief of another kind, and that is your wavering self worth. Much of our orientation to self acceptance and worth and love is created in our early childhood. If you did not receive the proper attunement as a baby and further love and respect as a child, you will struggle with self worth when you do not receive validation from your valued others. The good news is you can heal a faulty self worth by giving yourself the love, validation and kindness that others were meant to give you but either could not or did not.

            My hope is that you focus on yourself instead of your narcissist. Abandon (or take a break from) the disappointment and hurt and instead really embrace you as a person. Give yourself what you hope another to give you (love, acceptance, validation, kindness, etc.) Pursue self awareness and knowledge. Know your values. Think about what you truly want in a relationship. If the one you are in does not resemble that, move on. I am not being harsh, but you cannot change another. Best we can do is appreciate everyone, knowing everyone is exactly where they either need to be or are capable of being in that moment.

            As for the ego drawing a false conclusion, this means the ego is deceiving you to apply false logic (You: “I wanted to be loved and respected. My narc did not give that to me, therefore I am not worthy of love.” Truth: “I am worthy of love and respect. I give authentic love and respect. If it is not returned, I will know to move on.”

            Lastly, I belong to the group you lashed out at–I am ever grateful to HG. The bold truth that HG imparts freed me in a way that psychological theory could not. Only HG is brutally honesty in a bold and creative manner that pierces through emotional thinking and the bargaining of hope. Of course I could move on, but my gratitude is vast and I hope to add value to HG and all here in return. If HG needs assistance in a constructive way I would be happy to deliver. Not because I am a “groupie” lol, but because of gratitude. Still Hurting, we are here for you, not against you. Thank you for your kind wishes.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you FYC, that is appreciated.

          7. FYC says:

            You are most welcome, HG, and my intent and offer is quite sincere.

          8. Still Hurt&Confused says:

            Hi FYC,
            Thanks again for taking the time reply.
            Firstly, I apologise if I offended you with my views on some of the aspects of this site, or if you felt personally attacked in anyway. I actually don’t consider you to be one of the “fervent fans”. I do not take umbrage with people simply because they appreciate HG’s work and want to share his work. I take umbrage with the slightly sycophantic undercurrents that run through this site. I’m not saying everyone on here is like that. Far from it. When I was on here just over a year ago, before I was sucked back in and went deeper down the rabbit hole, I interacted with a number of friendly and helpful people. I appreciated their opinions and insights. I also appreciate your insightful reply and I agree with you on almost everything. The only thing I don’t necessarily agree with is your point about having expectations in relationships. I think having realistic expectations is a good thing. Just as having values is a good thing .If we treat someone kindly and with respect, it is perfectly reasonable to expect to be treated the same way. However, where the issue arises is that we don’t walk away when our expectations are not met. Just as when we stick around when our values or boundaries are being violated. I guess expectations, values and boundaries are closely related for me. If I am being honest and open with you, I expect you to do the same. If we have agreed to commit ourselves to making a relationship work, then I expect you to be loyal and faithful. I expect you to mean what you say, and say what you mean. My problem was that i really wanted to believe he was capable of meeting these expectations. That he was a good person at his core, just very troubled. Yes, “when someone shows you who they are, believe them”. Actions always speak louder than words. And patterns of behaviour are a piercing warning cry.

            And just for the record, I do appreciate this site. I’m just not ready to declare my undying loyalty to HG! (Again I’m joking, always good to see the funny side 😉)

          9. FYC says:

            Hello Still Hurt, No, I did not take offense whatsoever. I simply wanted to share a perspective. I have read comments that indicate a person possesses certain issues or traits that are not helpful to themselves or others, but they must walk their own path. I was also addressing my perspective in not immediately leaving the site though I feel I have gained what I set out to understand (yet in truth, I learn things daily).

            As for expectations, I understand you, but hope you shift your perspective as it will greatly improve your experience in relationships and your partner’s. Giving your kindness, respect and love and expecting it to be received in return (especially from a narcissist who is not cabable of returning the same) is setting you up for pain and disappointment. Now, if you give these hoping (versus expecting) to find the same but are denied, well, you know what to do (logically and in accordance to your values). Your strong desire, emotional thoughts and hope are whispering sweet lies in an effort to get another hit of oxitocyn and resolve your cognitive dissonance. Another psychological principal at work is that of when a story or a song or even a relationship is left unfinished, our minds replay the segment until it achieves some form of resolution. The information here can do that for you.

            Even in a ‘normal’ relationship, expectations (no matter how positively perceived by the holder) are highly correlated with a negative experience of the other. In most cases, expectations set you up for failure. Why? Because once set, your mind subconsciously evaluates performance of the other ongoing and variances flag disappointment. Even when your partner would naturally reciprocate, resentment builds (to whatever degree depending upon length of relationship). Instead, set standards for your self and honor them. The right person will give you what you desire in the absence of expectations (and this will set you both free to appreciate one another). I hope this better clarifies this area for you. There is a great deal of existing research in this area of psychology if you desire further research.

            Sending you much compassion and encouragement for resolution in the not too distant future.

          10. WhoCares says:

            Hello FYC,

            I know you were addressing Still Hurt&Confused but I wanted to say that I enjoyed your comment on expectations and how they still have an effect, even in positive interactions – especially if we’re not conscious of the role they play. This is helping me elucidate, in particular, something I need to resolve immediately in my personal life.

            I’ve also taken away much from other your other posts and value those contributions.

            When I read this, specifically –

            “I was also addressing my perspective in not immediately leaving the site though I feel I have gained what I set out to understand (yet in truth, I learn things daily).”

            I identity with the feeling of having gained understanding regarding one’s own personal narcissistic entanglement and the resulting pain…however, as noted in stating that you are learning things daily; I also feel that there is much more to learn about narcissism at the cultural level etc., and that we’re slowly getting those answers here – with much more to be revealed.

          11. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, Thank you for your kind comment, it is appreciated. I am grateful if sharing what I have learned is of use to you and others. Please always feel free to add to any conversation I have. I feel like a master student of life: Ever learning and in so doing always gaining a greater perspective. It is my hope and my intent to give back. I wish you much success in the resolution of your personal matter.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Addiction and trauma can make intelligent people appear less so from a removed or logical standpoint. Doesn’t mean they are.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and very intelligent people can still be seduced, conned and stuck. Just ask many of my victims. Further, the vast majority of people I consult with who have been ensnared are not stupid people, on the contrary – I have spoken with academics, psychologists, bankers, CEOs, stockbrokers, surgeons, lawyers, scientists and so forth – all of whom are clearly very intelligent but have been ensnared.

          2. Claire says:

            I’ve never felt so stupid in my life. I am disgusted beyond measure. I am happy to hear other people that are in triple digits have experienced this. Not that anyone had a rough time—but that it’s common enough to impact all types.

          3. Still Hurt& Confused says:

            FYC, thank you for taking the time to reply.

            “Your worth is never determined by another. If you give your love and time (and other things) to another, it is important to do so freely.”

            Yes, I agree, and on a logical level I understand this. Although on some days, when I’m feeling particularly low, it’s easy to indulge those thoughts that I am simply not good enough, or worthy of love. I know this is not true, but some days it “feels” true.
            I did give my love and time freely. But I also expected to be treated with kindness, respect and affection. A healthy and normal expectation, in my opinion. I was transparent and honest from the start. He was not. I was open and wiilling to try. Although he said he was, he acted in the opposite way. I cared and was very attached. Clearly he did not care, and was not attached to me. I meant the things I said. He did not. The disappointment remains. I asked him many times to tell me if he didn’t want me. To tell me if he wanted someone else. He of course denied it. He told me that he did care, that he did want me. He lied, gaslighted and manipulated to the very end. Even after I forgave him for so much. I forgave him for so much and tried to help him through it all. Yes, I did lose time. I also lost my equilibrium. Do I regret giving my time and devotion to this individual? No. Do I wish he was not disordered and we could live “happily ever after” ? Yes. Do I still feel extremely disappointed? Yes. Do I feel bitter? On some days, yes. My progress is non-linear.

            If you wouldn’t mind (I won’t be offended if you don’t wish to reply), can you tell me more about your theory of the ego drawing a false conclusion.

            As for my comments about others on this blog and why I care…well, I don’t care all that much. I simply find the the attitude of some posters annoying. I also find the groupie mentality a bit annoying too. The “all hail the wonderful Wizard of Oz” vibe is a little worrying. Of course, that is my opinion and perspective and people are welcome to disagree with me. Should I take the high ground and simply ignore it? Probably. Will it affect my progress? I doubt it. Because my issues have nothing to do with these posters. My issues are with myself, the individual that brought me here, and my past experiences/traumas.
            They just triggered my slight annoyance. That is all.

            Also wishing you peace and joy, FYC

          4. Still Hurt&Confused says:

            FYC, I’m glad you did not take offence. And it’s completely up to you how long you stay on this site, or any other site relating to this topic. My comments were directed towards those who believe they are further along in their recovery than they actually are, and who are judging the “slowpokes”. The “I can’t believe they still don’t get it” mentality.
            My aim is to eventually stop visiting this site. To Shift the focus back to me and the various goals I want to accomplish.
            I understand the point you are trying to making regarding expectations and I will take your perspective into consideration.
            Thank you for your patience and time. Wishing you all the best. Take care.

          5. K says:

            Still Hurt&Confused
            Wrong. Your comments aren’t directed towards those who believe they are further along in their recovery than they actually are, and who are judging the “slowpokes”. The “I can’t believe they still don’t get it” mentality, the panty-throwers, sycophants, fervent fans or the groupies.

            Your comments are indirect, cowardly and passive aggressive. If you are wondering why the self-aware are still here, then ask them and maybe you will learn something.

            I simply find the passive aggressive attitude of some posters annoying.

        3. Joanne says:

          Yes, Renarde, you are right. And that’s why I felt insensitive in my comment. I hung around that forum for some time (before I realized there was a community of sorts within the comments on HGs blog) and couldn’t relate to most of them. Empathy and sympathy of course, they did not deserve their ongoing abuse, no way. Oftentimes, when I began to say, “google HG Tudor,” they’d reply with something like, “yes, I’ve tried that and it doesn’t line up for me.” Or something along those lines. I suppose the idea of reading the work of someone who’s an admitted narc also put up an immediate bar for them.

          The thing is, the “love and light” advice isn’t going to get you through to the understanding of what the hell you’re experiencing 🙁 It’s very sad to see these women so stuck in the vortex.

          I know nothing of Vaknin either, other than he too is a self proclaimed, diagnosed narc. I watched a couple videos of which now I can’t even remember. I did read somewhere that he was jealous of HG because of his good looks. LOL

          1. HG Tudor says:

            And better voice.
            And better information.
            And better communication skills.

          2. Claire says:

            Oh I’m quite sure he exceeds you in the boudoir.. Maybe you look better but I’m sure he’s quite skilled.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Are you taking the piss?

          4. Claire says:

            It was too easy for me to pass up! Like seriously—who could go there! Can you imagine his “Sex and the Narcissist” volume XXX.. ?

          5. Joanne says:

            Cringe 😬

          6. NarcAngel says:

            SV’s Sex and the Narcissist would likely be one page. A picture of his hand. And even the hand would escape to narcsite if it could.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, your second sentence caused much amusement here at Tudor Towers.

          8. Joanne says:


          9. Joanne says:

            Agree on all counts HG. He is a bit of a mess 😬 I imagine if anything he might helpful on the clinical side versus the victim facing side. He comes across so dry and boring.

          10. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Claire, I reckon SV is probably better looking too!


            Love you HG xxx

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Specsavers is that way.

          12. Claire says:

            It’s hilariously possible! We just don’t know!

          13. Chihuahuamum says:

            Poor sam vaknin lol how can he be jealous of HG’s looks weve not seen HG yet? 😄
            SV is definitely a cerebral and asexual. Ive noticed hes come out with more vids lately. I do find them useful but will admit to getting bored. Hes too intellectual in the way he delivers his info.
            Im not sure what happened between him and richard grannon but they seem to be working together again after a spiff.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            They will fall out again.

          15. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi HG…youre right im sure they will. I dont know much about richard grannon but i see this black and white going on which is the hallmark of npd. Theyre thick as thieves then theyre on the outs.

        4. Claire says:

          You are correct and what an education it’s been. (And is) I’m reaching a point of exhaustion (but will make it because of HG) with the shenanigans of my hopefully ex—he simply won’t divorce me due to passive aggressive behavior. It sucks that HG is often unmentionable.. I have several friends who bite their tongue in regard to my engagement with him but no one else gets it. They think he’s creepy and that he is going to fly through the night and strangle me. Never mind one is clearly involved with a narcissist.. (I am biting my tongue..) No one has brought me peace except HG and all of you. I think my name is going to pop up differently.. I changed it to be more anonymous since I often send links to some people. I’d rather my comments be private.

          1. Narc noob says:

            Can you send private messages? I’m an all round all out noob sorry and only signed up to word press recently.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No, you are not permitted to contact other posters through this blog and I repeatedly warn against doing so offblog for very good reasons (which have been repeatedly validated by the behaviour of certain people).

          3. WhoCares says:

            Speaking of not being able to contact people outside of the blog; where’s Windstorm these days? I haven’t seen a post of hers in a little while…

          4. HG Tudor says:

            She is fine. She has other matters to attend to and is taking a break, she e-mailed me asking me to state that was the case if anybody asks. She will return.

          5. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you, HG.

            Take care Windstorm!

          6. Renarde says:

            Vankin. Yes. I can see why HG has said ‘Are you taking the piss?’. I see Vankin describes himself as Cerebral over Somatic. That is good because he wouldn’t be very effective in the other category now would he? Sorry, was that bitchy of me?

            Actually I don’t know how intelligent Vankin is but I do note that he’s a tit. And that’s my professional opinion. I note his PhD is in ‘Chronons’. FFS. I’m pretty sure Einstein is spinning in his grave as that theory must violate General Relativity itself. That’s the trouble with a thesis, you can say whatever the fuck you want in the viva and as long as you can argue effectively then the doctorate is yours! Congratu-well done!

            Also, his website is confusing and reads like he’s selling something. I know we all grumble about WordPress but at least NS is clear and well laid out.

            A question HG if I may? When Vankin was clinically tested in 2009, he met the criteria for Psychopathy but not Narcissism. How could that be if we assume he was honest in how he answered the questions?

        5. Renarde says:

          Been off to look at Vankin – my my!

          But just wanted to correct an inaccuracy in my post above. Personally, I believe the most targeted’ victims’ are actually the most intelligent ones. I think this is maybe because they are the ones most likely to second guess on the manipulations.

          What I was referring to above was that there were posts in that FB group that I really struggled to understand. That was all.

  19. Aurora says:

    Hate to give names but I experienced this first hand on Lisa E Scott’s website. Lisa herself is a lovely woman. Her moderator Goldie on the website is really a narc, shudder…HG pretty much described my experience with her years ago to a tee. I asked a question, she asked me how dare I ask a question without having been active and supportive on the forum previously (wtf?) , proceeed to utter more gibberish like an insane person hurling insults at a stranger and when I asked her what her deal was, she deleted my post and blocked me from posting. Fun times…nothing like being re-traumatized on these places. Take care of yourselves folks

    1. NarcAngel says:

      If Lisa is a lovely woman why would she have a narc moderating?

      1. K says:


      2. Renarde says:

        EXACTLY NA. Moreover, how could anyone put themselves in a position of running a support forum without being able to spot one at 20 paces? If you can’t do that then you are simply not qualified to be in that position.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Very true. Could that red flag be any bigger or waving any stronger?

          1. Renarde says:

            I don’t kow that forum or indeed that person named. I will now go and have a look. Thank you.

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            I don’t know enough about her. I did look at some of her work when I first found out. I’d be interested to know whether she is or not though.

        2. Twilight says:


          I am a moderator to which I also belong to many groups. I observe behaviors, not one off interactions due to the fact you can not say a person is a narcissist they could be questions, they could be looking to have a discussion.
          I have not once nor twice yet several time confront and kicked narcissist out of the group I belong to, this includes helping a moderator show her true colours and have them booted out.

          I have observed your behaviors outside of this blog to. I can say many things about you and I can paint you as an attention seeking and a narcissist if I so chose to do such.

          Stop prancing around as if you can spot them at 20 paces when you don’t sit back and observe behaviors before making a judgment.

          1. Renarde says:

            Well, all I can say is this. Heaven help the people who subscribe to your sites.

            Poor fuckers.

          2. Lori says:

            This page and Lisa’s page are two entirely different things. This is from a narcs perspective and hers is from a victims perspective. The “wallowing “ you witness is people there coping with addiction and what has happened to them with other victoms and they are able to with ease there because comments go thru automatically where as here they go thru moderation first so the conversation flows more freely there and people are able to make their own posts. The way I view it that is a place for people who are really in the throes of it and need a lot of hand holding and I think of this page as a bit more advanced and full of information from a Narcs perspective. Lisa’s page is a bit more like rehab

      3. Lori says:

        Lol I know Lisa and Goldie well from years ago. I haven’t read this thread what’s the issue ?

        I’ll just say this Goldie has had a lot happen to her. You cannot know everyone’s story from the internet. One of my dearest friends I met on that page over 9 years ago from my encounter with Narc 1. There’s always gonna be friction on these types of pages because people have had varying degrees of abuse over widely varied amounts of time add to it a bunch of people at varying stages of recovery and Kaboom.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I was responding to Aurora’s comment that Lisa is a lovely woman but she has a narc moderating. I questioned why that would be.

          1. Lori says:

            I don’t know that Goldie is a Narc you just can’t know for sure from the internet but is it possible ? Sure it’s possible. I do know her personally. I mean I know her identity not just as Goldie. She can super abrupt with folks but I think that’s a function of hearing and seeing people do the same shit over and over. Ya know ? I mean I even I get pissed at myself for doing the same shit over and over lol

    2. K says:

      Well, that’s a fine how-do-you-do. I have never had that experience here on narcsite.

    3. mommypino says:

      Thank you for sharing Aurora. I do think that it is re-traumatizing to be accused of being a narcissist or attacked by people who are supposed to be your fellow empaths in a forum that you thought would be a source of support for you. Even if it’s just through insinuations. I have seen on IG from an ACoN account that I have been following a screen shot of comment thread from a person that the owner or moderator of the support forum is accusing of being a narcissist. It didn’t even edit out the picture of the person being called a narcissist and the conclusion of that person being a narcissist only came from a comment that the person made. I think that we need to use caution before being judgmental even if we don’t like that commenter or have a disagreement with that commenter. Most of us have already been accused of being a narcissist by our abusers; for empaths to echo that accusation in a support forum is really hurtful and adds validation to the abusive accusation. Thank you HG for this wonderful article.

      1. Renarde says:

        I agree MP. I get it all the time. It really is like water off a ducks back now but in the beginning it really hurt.

        Now I just laugh and go – well – if you think I’m a narc and I am aware I am a narc then shouldn’t you start running?

        Mwah ha ha!

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Lots of people get labeled narcs that are not. Sometimes people are highly sensitive, in denial, or just do not want to look at any angle that involves their participation, which is their right but it doesn’t help in healing or preventing it from happening again. Also there are misunderstandings caused by emotion. That does not make the other person a narc. Interesting that it gets thrown around so easily with regard to people we do not gel with or dislike, but there is a tenacity in trying to find good qualities in the actual narcissist that really was /is abusing us. I think often when I’m reading:
          If you would only apply half of that recognition to your own situation and the venom you direct at this person who dares to offer an alternative view (just for considerstion -not acceptance) to the actual narcissist that is abusing you, you’d be much better off.
          I always thought that about my mother. Incredulous that she would bite my head off for giving an observation and yet he was the one abusing her. Well she sure showed me didn’t she? Now that he’s gone and she is old, bitter and alone, she tells me I was right. I didn’t want to be right. I wanted her to wake up so that she (we) would not continue to be abused. I guess thats narcky to some. So be it.

          1. Renarde says:

            NA – I perceive you have taken my off the cuff comment as a reality of which I actually do. I do not direct ‘venom’ at people who label me as a narc. Far from it. I simply cannot be arsed. But I do think it. Of course I do. My post was a sarcastic (and very British) response.

            I really like and appreciate your comments to NS which are filled with much wisdom but I am now questioning how you perceive I am treating my own personal situation with my ‘abuser’.

            I say bits and bobs but I cannot and for very good legal reasons go into the why’s and the where-fores.

            I would appreciate it if you could give me some credence in this situation rather than the post above, which has, frankly, wounded me.

            I am not ashamed to admit that. I think Empaths hide too much behind their own fear of shame/guilt/not being good enough/not being the person the Narc wants.

            I refuse, absolutely to play that game anymore. I refuse to play into the hands of abusers who have stripped EVERYTHING from me. Who have played time and time again on my own Empathic nature.

            Fuck. Them.

            I’m saddened you cannot see this.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            No. My comment had nothing to do with you. It stemmed from the conversation about trying to determine if people who run or moderate websites about narc abuse and the oeople who visit them are actually narcissists or labelled as such due to the emotional state, perception, or misunderstanding of others. This appears to be a good example of misunderstanding since I struggle to even see how you linked this to you, unless I used a reply button under a comment you made because it was the first available? Also not sure what you meant about my comments to NS? Sometimes I read a bunch of posts and I form a thought in relation to the general discussion presently and also how I have seen it played out previously. That was the case here in that I have seen people called narcs who were not. Myself among them. I will repeat: It had nothing to do with you.

          3. Renarde says:

            Apologies NA. I see that now. I know what’s happened and why I came to that conclusion.
            Indeed, it’s a perfect illustration how how things can be misconstrued.

          4. Mercy says:

            NA, I agree about misunderstandings about emotions. Not all empaths are the same. Some empaths will avoid confrontation at all cost because of their emotions, others empaths emotions cause confrontation. Doesn’t make them a narcissist.

          5. Lori says:

            This is all very true. I usually witness this in people who are new to Narcissism. They often refuse to accept that they had a role in it and it’s that refusal that can keep you stuck

        2. Renarde says:

          FWIW….just been called a narc. Goodness….the rope just gets paid out…Silly boy.

      2. Lou says:

        I agree it’s you, MP.

        1. Lou says:

          Oops, mischievous autocorrect I meant I agree WITH you, Mommypino.

      3. nunya biz says:

        There’s a lot of conversation here but just wanted to say I like this comment, MP. It is a great reminder for me as I am trying to reduce certain behaviors and increase/improve others. And a lot of us can get defensive or triggered by certain things.

        That sounds especially terrible using someone’s picture and I think doxxing and similar is something that should be avoided as much as possible and things like that can border on smearing. I’ve even heard actual narcissists grumble about the possibility of being identified on forums and I’d be absolutely against it, I didn’t believe that sort of thing is happening and I hope it’s not. There’s no point in arguing against narcissistic behavior if things like that are encouraged. No point. I think people should be highly cautious when it comes to persuasion. I tend to feel relieved sometimes when someone doesn’t agree with me, I think if the world were strictly a reflection of my (frequently wrong) opinions it would suck and also mob mentalities are frightening. And we all know the dangers of mirroring? It is all around us.
        In fact I have been used by others in situations to persuade and I’m *mostly* against “outing” people in other contexts, such as marriage cheating, etc.. because I find *most* moral considerations to be highly complex. If a moral consideration seems simple, you’re probably thinking about it wrong or not at all.

        But I think a lot about the paradoxes in a narc-empath relationship (HG has several articles that come across as intentionally paradoxical) and I think it takes real digging to contemplate fully.
        I would really rather accept a certain amount of wrong, even very wrong, in the world to protect certain things, we have history to guide us plenty there.
        Anyway, thanks for the thoughts, MP. And I’m still not going on any other forum.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Very sensible, HG approves.

          1. nunya biz says:

            Thank you, HG : )

        2. mommypino says:

          Thanks for your thoughts NB. I agree with everything that you said. I was mortified when I saw that on IG and my impulsive response was to unfollow that account. That’s why I appreciate Aurora bringing up an experience that she had because there’s a lot of crazy stuff out there and we should be careful.
          I’m pretty similar to you in everything that you have described and I also intend to protect what I find helpful to me and to many people. I’m bringing this up as a reminder to all of us as empaths because sometimes there’s a need to bring something to attention although not in an attitude that is destructive but as constructive.

        3. mommypino says:

          Regarding going to other forums, I believe that it is a matter of personal choice. We all know what our needs are and we should take care of those needs. I am very loyal to HG out of a personal gratitude to his work and my appreciation of his kind and courteous conduct towards me and the commenters who come here. But I don’t see a conflict with that loyalty and my need to find and give support elsewhere. Narcsite is unique because of the vast first class information that is provided by HG that we will never find elsewhere and that is why I recommend this to people. The ACoN support forum was helpful to me when I needed people to be emotionally supportive of me one time when I was feeling very alone. Lori pointed out something that is very true, the posts in those FB groups are not comments to an article but anybody can make an original post about a problem that they are going through. One time there was an ACoN who was so worried because his matrinarc is close to dying and she owes a lot of money and he is worried that the debtors will go after him and I was able to tell him (with the help of my business law knowledge) that he doesn’t need to worry because they can only go after her estate and it stops there. I told him how to get rid of her assets and close the estate. It always feel good to help people and fellow victims and directing them to HG’s work and services is a big tool for me to be helpful as well.

          1. nunya biz says:

            Yeah, MP, my reason for not going to other places has nothing to do with any of that. I think people should go anywhere that helps and actually some comments that are interesting to me cause me to look up things. I don’t have loyalty that keeps me here, it’s just that it’s helpful and I like it, nothing to do with loyalty- though I probably have some due to accuracy.

            My reason is because I have a very hard time with exposure. I’m surprised I can even comment here. I only type it because it is relevant to me, that’s it, no other reason.

          2. mommypino says:

            Thank you NB for clarifying. I must have inadvertently conflated your comment with the other comments about loyalty.

          3. nunya biz says:

            No problem, mp, thank you I have not fully read those comments.
            Xo : )

    4. kathy0720 says:

      I just looked her up—had never heard of her. I really only look at the little shaman’s stuff and HG’s. There is some nice fluff out there but there’s simply no need because everything is here.

  20. Joanne says:

    What other Greaters run sites like this?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Joanne says:

        Lol I didn’t think so. Not that I’m looking to go anyplace else! 😅

    2. Anm says:

      I remember someone on here, once said that Sereena Nightshade is a Greater. Not sure, but she isn’t a normal empath. Her work is really dark. But she hasn’t been active online lately , and i think her YouTube page was taken down.

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