Big Little Lies : Perry Wright


Co-Dependent Empath? Normal? Upper Lesser Narcissist? Narcissistic but not a narcissist?

Vote below and state your case in the comments.


What is Perry Wright?

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103 thoughts on “Big Little Lies : Perry Wright

  1. E. B. says:

    I voted ULN.
    Although I have seen him use the ST and aslo when he tried to strangle his wife (characteristics of a LMRN), he relies heavily on Celeste and does not want her to go back to work. He is extremely controlling and wants to know everything she does, all her plans. He uses intimidation and physical/sexual violence to control her. He is in a better social and financial position than a LMRN.

  2. Whitney says:

    I selected Upper Lesser because the midrangers I’ve dealt with were not violent they used other ways to maintain control

  3. WokeAF says:

    FYC I aLso was thinking Bonnie acted in a reasonable manner . The other ladies (4 of em!!) we’re attempting to verbally and physically stop the attack to their detriment. Bonnie acted correctly I think and her intent was not murder.

    The bigger questions (s) this raises With me, at least , I detailed in my other comment

    1. FYC says:

      I agree, WokeAF, Bonnie acted justly (both legally and ethically) under the circumstances.

  4. MommyPino says:

    I voted Upper Lesser Narcissist. He has low control of his fury but he is wealthy and maintains a facade of a loving family man. I also think that he’s a psychopath.

  5. MB says:

    Prof Tudor, are you able to see who votes for what in these polls? Will we be graded?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  6. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Oh oh! He just agreed to attend couple’s counseling!!! Not a Lesser or a Greater….

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I’m on episode 3. He’s a MRN. He is scared she will outshine him, he’s a coward and an envious fuck. Just like mine! Yay

  7. Anm says:

    Lower Greater.

    1. WokeAF says:


  8. K says:

    Perry approaches Celeste re: the bullying incident and tells Celeste that the twins are not to associate with Ziggy. (he is unreasonable and controlling)

    Celeste: you’re being ridiculous. (challenge fuel)

    Perry feels a lack of control and deploys The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence by grabbing Celeste and hissing: The boys will stay away from that kid. (intimidation, bullying, physical violence, hypocritical and contradictory behaviour and projection)

    Celeste: Take your hand off me.

    Perry: If I can’t be here to look out for them, I need to know that you do. (paranoia)

    Celeste: I asked you to remove your fucking hand.

    (Perry is controlling and has a low control threshold over his fury)

    In the car, on the way to school drop off.

    Perry: Do you remember your first day of school?

    Celeste: I do, actually I got asked out on a date by a second grader, no less.

    Perry: Did we accept? (Celeste is an extension of him; he doesn’t recognize her as a separate person)

    Perry: I’m sorry about last night. The idea of a bully in the class–(false contrition, projection, blame shifting, hypocritical and contradictory behavior)

    Celeste: I don’t think he is a bully, but you’re are probably right. We should err on the side of safety. (she waffles to placate Perry)

    Celeste: I was thinking when you get back from Vienna, maybe we could see another counsellor.

    Perry: Yeah, I think it’s a good idea. This is gonna be a really good year for us Sparkles. (facade maintenance, future fake, Pet Name/objectification)

    I don’t care how many books Perry reads to his children; he is an ULN. He has a facade and, in my experience, MLNs and LLNs have almost no facade whatsoever.

  9. Presque Vu says:

    Perry is insecure.
    A greater would never admit or show that.
    He doesn’t believe she loves him and is constantly testing her.
    He regains some sense of authority when he makes her succumb and takes control back through aggression.
    He knows her power. Her desirability and he cannot feel second best. Ever.
    If he makes her feel small, vulnerable and attacks her self esteem, he believes he can keep her. He knows he is punching above his weight and his inner demons will always tell him he’s not good enough. He cannot see or accept her true love because he’s never known it. If you’ve never been shown that how can you identify it, it’s like red flags, if you don’t know what they are… you are blind by default.

    When Celeste told him she was leaving, he lost control and fury spiked. He had to get control back. He was desperate and knew this time she would leave him, showing her inner strength he always knew she had. The day he feared came true.

    He would keep her at all cost, she belonged to him and he was reliving moments in his life where he felt worthless, nothing, abandoned. Attack, attack attack.

    He’s blind, because he never had a full insight, into love, and what love without the need to control is. Love without conditions attached.

    Perry is insecure. He feels the only way he can keep her and her love is through control and abuse. That’s all he’s ever known it would seem.

    Perry is a narc, what category I’ve no idea, I don’t hate his character, if anything, I can see why after seeing his mum in action. 100% not acceptable behaviour, I will never condone it but for the greater good of education, god knows I want to understand him.

  10. Twisted Heart says:

    Oh you mean Satan? I voted UMR. He is somewhat aware of his demons but doesn’t hide the fact that he can be extremely abusive. Great at facade/victim mode. The therapist mentions that he has the network, the resources and the ego to win at the custody battle.
    His constant burping makes me think upper lesser though. I hate him.

    1. nunya biz says:

      TH, his monster thing makes me ill.

      1. Twisted Heart says:


      2. Caroline R says:

        Me too. It’s creepy!
        He’s a good actor, but it’s still creepy.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Really creepy, Caroline R, and it had me remembering how past lesser had me constantly on eggshells and after I left I started waking up relieved I wasn’t going to be startled and tormented.

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi twisted heart…oh yes the burp scene major cringe ughhh. Reminds me of my brother. Very charming…. 🤢

  11. misstasia says:

    I vote Upper Lesser Narcissist I think that’s a no brainer. Any type of mid range and higher have self control they usually do not get physical with their victims. He knew Celeste had no family and he never approved of her friendships he kept her isolated as much as he could. The late night video chats wasn’t because he missed her he checked up on her making sure she was alone.

    1. WokeAF says:

      I think he lost his everloving shit as the end bc he was massively exposed as all three of them were staring at him in horror and then he saw Jane and realized he was exposed
      Also Celeste was leaving him and he knew that he was thrown into quite the state

    2. WokeAF says:

      I’ve known a couple mid Rangers over the years who got physical with their girlfriends(my friends)
      It’s a special lil tweak some of em have . Sometimes they even only pinch or kick them in areas that no one else can see .

      My BFF stepdad was a midranger who raped her , her entire life till age 20
      Her mother still doesn’t know
      He most certainly was not a greater. He never worked, a vile leech.
      He wouldn’t lose control and attack a stranger tho. He had more than enough control .

      The violence comes in all the schools
      Just depends on the disposition of the narc

      1. Caroline R says:

        Good points.

        My familial Somatic Upper Lessers yell everyone down, and will suddenly scream with rage….like Renata.
        They only do it behind closed doors though, and are very charming, attractive, and articulate in public.
        My mother would keep her rage in check when her empath mother was around. I suppose that she preferred positive fuel from her, and she was always well-fuelled and ‘happy’ in appearance when my grandma visited, or when we’d visit her.

        My Lessers had some mid-ranger overlap as the facade was firmly in place in public, or when they had visitors.
        N-Mother would speak in her characteristic “phone voice” with visitors.
        They would indecently assault behind closed doors, however.
        My N-sister was never screamed at or assaulted as I was, or as my brother was. She got off scot-free for everything.

        My N-Mother was successful in business, and a high achiever, moreso than her father but he was an alcoholic

        My victim-N mid-ranger sister has stalked me, tried to break into my house, and physically threatened me. Only when no one else was around but me, of course.

        My N-friends that stalked me and broke into my house were mid-rangers.

        The two ex-N’s that assaulted me were mid-rangers, and one of those would shout me down in “discussions”.

        The other ex-Ns who stalked me, set up harassing phone calls, and blackened my name among members of my new social group were all mid-rangers too, but they weren’t verbally or physically aggressive.

        There’s a spectrum of behaviour, and I don’t think that Perry fits in among any of these men.

        What would he look like without Celeste’s money? This is blurring things for me.
        He’s possessive and appears somewhat insecure, the reason given that he feels that Celeste is out of his league. He’s mildly paranoid that she’ll leave him.
        Perry is a handsome Somatic N, but he’s not ostentatious. He’s successful and articulate, but not smug or supercilious.
        His fuel-garnering activities appear to be centred around his family, but we don’t have enough information about that, as he’s away often.

        Is he an Upper Lesser?
        A Lower Mid-ranger with violent tendancies and a short fuse?

        His assaults of Celeste are filth!
        His rape of Jane is filth!
        I want to push him down the stairs!

        Wait, what was the question again?

        1. WokeAF says:

          Caroline – omg the “phone voice” . I can always tell when my kid’s dad has other ppl in earshot bc he makes anything I say sound exaggerated like if I calmly say “you’re getting the kid tomorrow right” he’ll say “YES I’m getting the kid stop freaking” and such. OR he’ll be sickly sweet when he normally wouldn’t . I can tell his different voices .

  12. nunya biz says:

    I’m going to say Upper Lesser because I don’t see him having any friends and he is impulsive. I also don’t see him as exceptionally persuasive, just controlling and manipulative.

  13. strongerwendyme says:

    Not a Greater because they are rare. Lower Mid range, with some sadistic thrown in. Somatic (because, well look at him). I hope they shot scenes of him with his mother as a child to show how he was “formed”. You can see glimpses of what it would have been like for Perry as her surviving son in Meryl Streep’s performance. Would be fascinating.

    1. WokeAF says:

      Rare but they exist
      I don’t think LMR would have the ability to provide like that

  14. FYC says:

    Given Perry’s loathsome mother, Mary Louise, it is little wonder Perry is a narcissist. He had GPD and LOCE. Neither display empathy. Both display egregious entitlement. Neither have guilt. Both have a desperate need for total control over and submission by others.

    I chose LGN. At first I struggled with what type of narcissist. Definitely not midrange. His violence could fit lesser, yet he limits the violence to his intimate partners (including infidelity and rape–I doubt Jane was the first or would have been the last). My assumption of lessers it they lack the skills and self-restraint to manage their anger and violence with anyone. We do not know what their golden period was like, however, we get a glimpse in his extravagant conciliatory gift of a diamond necklace. So I will assume it was a golden versus bronze.

    Perry manages his facade to the children and all others. He has a successful career and is ‘respected’ in the community and lives in luxury. His abuse goes undetected. His wife hides his violence (a very CoD behavior). For greater control, he demanded she give up her career once she had children (not so much for the kids, but so that she will not leave him–he fears losing fuel and losing face).

    He was willing to go to one therapy session as a means of appearing agreeable (facade management to be used later for manipulation), yet was dishonest during the session. A narcissist would know his CoD wife would cover for him anyway. Greaters like the fuel of CoDs and Supers. In this case she is a CoD.

    I did not choose MGN or UGN because he still resorts to violence (which HG has said is rare but possible for greaters). Perry has an obvious thin veneer over his fury. He also blame shifts his violent abuse to his wife and she partially accepts this. Perry threatened to kill his wife, and probably would have if enough fury was ignited. Bottom line, Bonnie did the fictional world a good turn by removing the abuser permanently, as he surly would have kept turning up like a bad penny until someone was dead.

  15. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I started watching the show last night. I don’t know much at this point but when I saw this character I thought of HG wearing his mirror sunglasses. My only thoughts so far are: what career does one needs to follow in order to have one of these houses?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      His wife was a successful lawyer.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I meant all of them, not just this one in particular. Madeleine’s kitchen is my dream: spacious, clean, with an ocean view… and what about that other woman who accused the new boy of attacking his daughter, Renata? She’s holding a glass of wine in one hand, staring at the sunset over the ocean, while her husband reminds her that she’s envied because she’s sexy and the president of the aquarium circle (???). Anyway I feel so behind but without knowing much on just one episode I feel I don’t trust this guy, I don’t like men that threaten women regardless of how hot they look.

        1. MB says:

          Sweet P, that is what struck me at first too. These houses! And on the beach ❤️

          I wouldn’t trade with a single one of them though. My house is probably 1% (if even that) the value of the least expensive one on the show. But there is peace in my home, and none of them can say that while they look out over the view.

          Oh, and Perry…easy on the eyes. But gets ugly and disgusting fairly quickly. Ed, on the other hand, starts out not attractive and gets better looking as you get to know him. Funny how that happens, eh?

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MB, I need to admit I started this because I finished Stranger Things already. As soon as people start getting nasty I will probably give up. I don’t know about anyone yet but I was feeling Madeleine’s foot pain all throughout episode 1 last night. Who’s Ed? Ok don’t tell me, I’ll find out tonight. Does Reese always play the same character in all her movies?

          2. MB says:

            Sweet P, Ed is Madeline’s husband. Reese does seem to always play the cutest little spitfire!

            I’ve not seen Stranger Things. Is it binge-worthy? I enjoy the entertainment at times, but I sure do despise spending my life watching tv. I’d much rather be on the blog!

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I usually try to avoid recommending shows, books, or music to others unless I’m sure that person has a similar taste. If you are a GenXer, like to find pop-culture references, are a little geeky, enjoy science-fiction, have watched all the 80’s Sci-fi and fantasy films and are nostalgic of 80’s music, by no means, you must watch it. Otherwise, you won’t enjoy the whole experience as much.

          4. MB says:

            Sweet P, does Back to the Future count? And I adore Reo Speedwagon 😂

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            There’s an allusion to BTF in this last season, as also to Terminator, Alien, and Never Ending Story. I find it more entertaining than watching a bunch of rich narcs fighting for the birthday party of their daughter, although I understand we are working on acquiring knowledge here. I hate Perry already and I’m on episode 3.

          6. MB says:

            Sweet P, I love that Luck Dragon! See, Perry ain’t so hot now 😐

  16. K says:

    I am leaning towards ULN but reading to the children (facade maintenance) has caused some serious dissonance. In my experience, ULNs shelve their young children (neglect; ignore them). They would not have a book in their hands let alone read one. Even female ULNs do not read to their children.

    1. WokeAF says:

      Some narcs abandon and neglect
      Some kids are scapegoats
      Some are golden child
      But nerve can be family men . They are proud of their little extensions lol and enjoy feeling powerful, omnipotent, etc

      1. WokeAF says:

        Edit: NARCS can be family men.
        I also haven’t met a lesser who’d do this tho lol

    2. MommyPino says:

      K, I just think of Trump (ULN) with his kids. His kids all say that he has always been very involved with them and even taking them to his board meetings and letting them play on the floor while he worked. I think ULN maintain a facade because of their social status.

      1. K says:

        You are absolutely right and I had to keep thinking: Trump is a lesser, Trump is a lesser, over and over again to get over the dissonance. I struggled with Perry’s facade, especially the reading.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          That, together with his willingness to go to couple’s therapy with Celeste, and the confession that he was scared that she wanted to outshine him, made me decide on MRN. My narc does all of the above: he likes to be surrounded by kids and read stories to them (provided that there’s someone to take a good pic and put it on Facebook later); he goes to couple’s therapy, and he is extremely jealous of other’s achievements, especially if you are a woman.

          1. K says:

            Sweetest Perfection
            The violence reminded me of my lessers but the facade reminded me of my midrangers. Couple’s therapy was also another hurdle, as well.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          When are we gonna talk about Madeleine? I feel so identified with her!

  17. Chihuahuamum says:

    One thing is for certain perry is a narcissist!! I chose lower greater. I dont feel hes entirely aware of his npd but i do think he is somewhat aware. He hides that side of himself to many and holds up the perfect dad facade especially with his children. What really hit me hard tho is how aware children are of the inner dynamics of a marriage despite hiding it. With physical abuse in particular it is very hard to hide and i suspect even the nanny knew or suspected.
    His outbursts of rage and impulsivity make me lean towards lesser greater. We see the whole devalue idolize cycle meant to keep the dynamic alive to the narcissist. He picks fights to create the contrast and heighten the intimacy in his eyes. Hes got a very twisted idea of intimacy and gets satisfaction mixing it with degradation and complete control. I suspect some sadism too. I feel strongly hes a psychopath. He reminds me a lot of chris watts. Chris watts would pretend play choking during sex bc it gave him the same thing perry got beating on his wife before sex and that was sexual gratification. Perverse. Perry is a lower greater psychopath imo. Hes also a somatic and successful so an elite. The psychologist was right he wouldve ended up killing celeste and eventually the physical abuse wouldve spilled onto the kids in more than just them knowing their mother was being beaten. The one boy started doing the very same thing he was learning from his father. I think eventually perrys rage wouldve been taken out on the children as well. He was a loose cannon. He had inner turmoil and eased it by lashing out on his wife. I suspect his wife mirrored his mother. Ive not watched season 2 yet but i imagine a very domineering mother who is a malignant narcissist. I think perry hated his mother and hated women. He felt better after beating celeste and hated the fact she turned him on im sure. He also chose an older woman which could also be another indicator that he viewed her as a reflection of his mother.
    The psychologist knew of celestes danger in staying with him. Perry wouldve killed celeste and possibly their children just like chris watts. Chris watts mother is a domineering narcissist as well.

    1. FYC says:

      Wait until you see see season two, your feelings are spot on. His mother is someone everyone anyone would loathe.

      1. FYC says:

        Sorry for all the typo lately, I really need to proofread before sending.

        1. FYC says:

          OMG…sould be “typos” lol. I am hopeless! At least I got a good laugh at myself.

          1. FYC says:

            Arrgh! “should”!!! Think I will quit while quite behind. Let’s see if this escapes without typos.

          2. MB says:

            Don’t stress the typos FYC! I know is difficult to let go, I despise making an error too. But sometimes “shot” happens!

          3. FYC says:

            Thank you MB. Yesterday I was tired and sloppy, but yes, ‘shot’ does happen!

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha I’m the queen of typos, FYC. Only in one comment yesterday I managed to type “chargers” in three different ways! I blame it on my creativity.

          5. FYC says:

            SP, Creative blame shift! Haha

          6. MB says:

            New episode tonight y’all! I lack one episode from being caught up. Will remedy that shortly.

          7. FYC says:

            Looking forward to the new installment and tomorrow’s comments.

        2. FYC and C-MUM: I forgot about his MOM!!!!!!! I am going to let my assessment stand, but I made a major error in forgetfulness.

          1. FYC says:

            No worries, PSE, we all do that. We will all learn from this exercise no matter what we write 😉

          2. FYC: Thank you.

        3. Chihuahuamum says:

          Fyc…im the queen of typos no worries lol i blameshift the keyboard 😄

          1. FYC says:

            Lol Chimum. I will blame shift to my lack of sleep. That and not actually seeing the obvious! Yesterday was typo and sloppy edit city for me. Thank you for your kindness 🙂

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        She is a witch!

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I’m talking of Perry’s mother. Sorry, I’m behind but I’m about to finish!

          1. FYC says:

            SP, We all knew what you meant. She (Mary Louise) is truly loathsome.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Full disclosure: I have not seen Season 2, just clips here and there. Not sure how to put this so bear with me………as I read the descriptions of her I keep thinking: yes, she seems loathsome in her comments and demeanour, but she knows something has gone on, and I have to admire the intelligence and calm determination she has in stopping at nothing to get to the bottom of it. I was thinking if she were in a different role, such as the detective in charge of finding my son’s murderer wouldn’t I be thrilled for her to have those same attributes and to have her on my side? Is it because we feel as empaths that we didn’t like Perry and justice was served according to our needs and not by the legal definition, and logic that there is indeed a cover up? Is that emotional thinking at it’s finest? Is she deemed as being meddlesome and not deserving of an answer/justice because she is so loathsome and might be a narc? Which leads to a bigger question……

            Just curious your thoughts.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, I haven’t finished the second season either, actually, I suddenly woke up last night on my sofa surrounded by popcorn everywhere, I will have to rewatch the last episode I was seeing because I don’t remember anything. You are right and I had similar thoughts too: she’s Perry’s mother and of course, she wants to find out what happened. She’s extremely intuitive and as you said, she’s doing a better job playing detective than the officer in charge of the investigation. She’s also very smart and efficient. However, I can’t stop thinking Perry is a narc precisely because of her. Although I don’t know enough to prove this theory. I don’t like her because of the callous remarks she makes on people she hardly knows, because she’s a stalker, and because she uses negative information other people willingly offered to her in a moment of vulnerability (ie: Celeste’s comment about she and Perry’s violent sexual habits) to throw it against you. That’s vile and a common narc practice.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I just realized your comment was addressed to FYC, sorry! In the end I’m as intrusive as Perry’s mom…

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Not at all. I see discussion on here as open unless otherwise noted. Your comments and anyone else’s are welcome.

          6. WokeAF says:

            Totally!! Celeste is grieving, but she’s acting unstable as a parent at the moment. And Perry WAS pushed – and Jane DID go looking for him w a gun. Just bc it was not intended as a murder and he was a sociopath, doesn’t erase the truth of the facts which ML is onto.
            It’s her WAY of relating that’s narcissistic, I feel. The way she immediately identifies sore spots and pokes them with a club , boundary busting, provoking ,-and also the way she swooped in our of nowhere (so like a narc) that swayed me. And my gut.

          7. WokeAF says:

            And yes I couldn’t help thinking – “well- she ain’t wrong!”
            (Despite Thinking Shes a narc)

            And yes to the bigger questions. Just bc we think we’re right- doesn’t mean we are. The sense of justice is huge but- what about the sense of truth? That’s why i relate to Bonnie (among other factors) killing someone “is heavy”, indeed. I couldn’t live with the lie. I’d have immediately told the truth , I still don’t really understand why they didn’t- I meant ok they panicked but- what about a day later? A week? They could’ve got off much easier . It wasn’t premeditated so with that kind of $$ for lawyers and Celeste’s career experience, the witnesses would’ve walked and Bonnie would’ve done time MAYBE .

            These discussions do bring to light the instability of seemingly obvious “morals” . Thou shalt not kill unless he’s a narc ? Protect yourself and your loved ones – unless they’re abusive – then they don’t count?

            It raises the Us vs Them mentality , which has historically been the beginning of every war, genocide, etc. Do we , as empaths, want to deem ANYONE “irrelevant”? Make them the “other”? What do we base this on – collective agreement? Law?!
            How well has THAT worked?

            Justice seekers don’t want to admit it but- the Us vs Them mentality is not empathic. Now as empaths we need to figure out how to deal with the seemingly “other” in society – without going into internal and external division


          8. NarcAngel says:

            Yes. You got me despite me being shit at explaining it.

          9. FYC says:

            NA, Allow me to address your questions separately:

            1) I have to admire the intelligence and calm determination she has in stopping at nothing to get to the bottom of it. I was thinking if she were in a different role, such as the detective in charge of finding my son’s murderer wouldn’t I be thrilled for her to have those same attributes and to have her on my side?

            Yes, Intelligence and calm are admirable and useful qualities. Determination can be an admirable and useful quality. If all of the above were used by a detective to get to the bottom of a real crime it would be laudable.

            2) Is it because we feel as empaths that we didn’t like Perry and justice was served according to our needs and not by the legal definition, and logic that there is indeed a cover up?

            a) I may not be objective (I would not tolerate physical abuse and I do not like Perry’s dark control– he is an abusive N).
            b) I believe abuse is not okay. If people are into consensual S/M sex like 50 shades, they absolutely need to stop when asked (I think that is why they use a safe word).
            c) Laws vary by country and state. Where I live, when someone is being brutally assaulted publicly, the abuser is the perpetrator and a bystander has the legal right to stop the assault with reasonable force (a shove of the perp away from the victim would be considered reasonable as it is not a blow or use of a lethal weapon even though the result was lethal). Here is a direct quote: “A defendant may use defense of others as a defense in a situation where s/he used force under the reasonable belief that it was necessary to defend another person.” In S1:E7 Bonnie defending Celeste by shoving Perry would be such a reasonable defense. Bonnie’s history of abuse at the hands of her mother could also be used as a psychologically contributing factor towards her state of mind (to stop abuse, not to murder someone). I do not see any provable case that Bonnie had intent. She reacted to what she saw.

            3) Is that emotional thinking at it’s finest?

            a) I don’t think so given he above facts (and many more that would include spoilers so I will refrain in case you watch S2).
            b) I certainly could be fairly accused of ET at times, but if I am guilty of ET in my analysis of Mary Louise (I do not believe I am), I can assure you I have experienced far finer moments of ET in my life.

            4) Is she deemed as being meddlesome and not deserving of an answer/justice because she is so loathsome and might be a narc?

            a) No. In the beginning of S1 she is given much leeway by Celeste and even defended by Celeste to her friends, this changes as ML becomes more intrusive, passive aggressive, manipulative, judgemental, and controlling. All people around her that are not easily manipulated are reacting the same toward he obvious intent. Only the children do not fully see through her actions.
            b) It does not bother me ML wants the truth, it is her above mentioned tactics/behaviors and personal pleasure in provoking upset that I find loathsome.

            5) Which leads to a bigger question……

            And your bigger question is?

          10. NarcAngel says:

            I should have been clear that I was asking you about these observations in general and not of your specific assessment. I see you as being able to weigh another option without taking it personal or thinking that I did not agree or am being provocative. It occurred to me that it may have come across differently than I intended when you replied on the portion of emotional thinking. I meant is that the emotional thinking of empaths (myself included) and not you specifically. I apologize if you took it that way. I can’t seem to get across exactly what I mean. I have to go out just now so will reply to your points later. I just wanted you to know in the interim I was not criticizing your assessment but rather asking if I was the only one perhaps seeing it in a different light.

          11. FYC says:

            NA, I did not feel criticized by you now or ever (nor by anyone here, as we are having intellectual discussions). You can ask away, anything you like at any time. I did assume you thought my ET may have overridden my logic, but I did not think that was the case, hence my response. I want to better understand what you were getting at so I look forward to your next comment. I thought perhaps you felt I was being hard on ML because she is a N and that she deserved our objective support. I dislike ML based on her behaviors and objectives (which I doubt include any form of justice–more selfish and revenge seeking), but that would never make me leave my logical senses in my analysis, nor make me believe that justice should not be served in the truer sense.

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Hi FYC
            Thank you for your patience as I didn’t really explain that very well (general observation vs your personal assessment). I hated Perry from the beginning, but I wasn’t thrilled with Celeste either. Their fuck-sick game is their business but they brought kids into that mess that WILL be affected. I would have done what Bonnie did for them and because I see no benefit to him being alive. Not specifically for Celeste. But I don’t understand the lie and cover up. I would have admitted it and declared that I saw danger and acted – that it wasn’t planned. If it was brought about that my mother was abusive all the better for my defence.

            Now if I were Perry’s mother…I would absolutely want to get to the bottom of it narc or not. If I thought these women were hiding something from me (even as an empath with higher narc traits) I would take huge offence to them thinking they could put one over on me. I would think any mother would want justice for their son as well as for herself in having the truth come out. If she’s a narc she will want it only for herself. I started to think: being a truth-seeker, it would likely push me to more severe behaviours than normal in order to flush out the truth. Almost a Supernova like state given the circumstances. WokeAF nailed what I was thinking: She’s not wrong. There is something afoot and she knows it. Is offended by the gall that these women think they can play her for the fool. Why should they be offered any leeway or pleasantries? She is provoking the truth to come out regardless her label or intention.

            So yes, it raised with me the questions:
            Is what happened to Perry accepted by empaths because we don’t mind being judge and jury when it aligns with our thinking regarding abusers? Is his mother’s behaviour viewed in the way that it is because we perceive her to be the mother of an abuser who is getting in the way of what we feel was justice served, and possibly a narc herself? Is that purely emotional thinking that benefits us? Us vs them? Does that align with who we believe ourselves to be?

            The bigger question (well one of them) being: Are narcs not entitled to justice and the truth also? and who decides?

            Having said all that.…she’s probably a narc and I would totally kill that shit stain Perry lol.

          13. FYC says:

            Hi NA and thank you for the expanded explanation. I believe I know why we had the disconnect. For me, justice is justice narc or no narc. The night Perry died, he first beat Celeste to the ground and was kicking her repeatedly. Numerous people tried to stop him. Bonnie saw this (S2 SPOILER ALERT: had flashbacks to her own abuse) and shoved him off her. I do not believe the killing was a murder. I see no intent for murder. So for me, she used reasonable force to stop a crime (battery/assault). If we use WokeAF’s premise, the original 7th commandment was Hebrew, “ratsakh” which applies only to illegal killing. And let’s not forget the 9th commandment not to bear false witness (this one the Monterey 5 are guilty of due to their ridiculous cover up). Further, no law abides by false witness either that I am aware of.

            As for the coverup, if I were Bonnie, I simply would have told the truth immediately. I would know what I did was the right thing to do in the moment (stop the crime) even though I had no desire to kill him. I would not feel guilty for stopping the crime, but I would feel guilty he died, even if he was a “shit stain” (laughed at that one). But writers being what they are, they love forced tension in a script. Never mind the viewers are saying WTF?

            I agree the mother deserves the truth. The unfortunate part about ML is, she does not appear to just want the truth, she wants her own agenda to be fulfilled under the guise of seeking the truth. Everything about her is underhanded. I also feel the detective should be seeking the truth instead of trying to create some conspiracy to commit murder. She is a horrible detective and you are correct that ML has done a far better job in her sleuthing thus far, (but she did not require a search warrants either).

            In life, I do not filter the world through N v E forms of judgement. I prefer reason to prevail and justice to be served regardless of whether a person is a narc or an empath or a myriad of there factors (this is why justice must be blind). As for who determines ‘justice’, it always comes down to the facts and the law, a judge and jury. [Don’t get me started on jurys, every time I serve on one I am chosen for foreman and it’s very hard for people to focus on facts and law so it takes far too long even when the perp is caught on tape!]

            Lastly, I agree, everything about the relationship between Perry and Celeste was disgusting and revolting.

            P.S. NA, pet the cat for me, lol, loved your story. Esp the Danial Boone cat cap.

          14. WokeAF says:

            Just gonna throw myself under the bus
            The Celeste-Perry sick fuck scene did it for me.🤪😆

          15. FYC says:

            NA, sorry I just noted I left out the response to the coverup. I believe the coverup was a bad move. I will leave out S2 details in case you watch, but a certain person offered up the lie and they all bought in to avoid scrutiny (and in theory to protect Bonny and other secrets). Yet the group lying has actually caused greater scrutiny and guilt.

            If Bonnie had instead explained to police she saw Celeste being beat to the ground and repeatedly kicked on the ground, and she feared her loss of life and reacted instinctively to stop the assault, none of the coverup drama nor conspiracy assumptions (and no doubt soon to be charges) would have ensued.

          16. nunya biz says:

            I hope nobody minds my throwing something in on the Mary Louise front…

            My problem with ML is that I don’t think she cares for the truth at all, so she really is not truth-seeking. The truth is frequently told to her and she shrugs it off if it doesn’t suit her. If she had any empathy at all she’d recognize the truth and certainly be moved by it. I don’t think she loved her son at all and she abused him and so is the very cause of his damage and the cause of his death. She has a blatant disregard for the truth and is actually a gaslighter.

            As an example of narcissistic abuse, I believe that if my child did something wrong and I blindly defended my child against consequence in the face of evidence I would be abusing my child. The reason I believe that is because my child would then face life unable to handle consequences, unable to be resilient, unable to grow and change and I would actually be stealing their life by doing that, because it would be something I would be doing for myself and not in their interest. It is a very similar idea to me as when a supposedly non-abusive parent doesn’t step in to stop an abusive parent. It is born of selfishness. It is pretending there is no problem, which is not in the interest of a child, so ML has absolutely proven she is a narcissist and an abuser by pattern of behavior.

            But I also agree, the cover up shouldn’t have happened. I said it on another thread somewhere, if I was Bonnie I’d be devastated about the cover up. Also I would mourn the act of killing Perry even though he deserved it. Simply because life is fucked up and killing someone would make me acutely face the energetic reality of life and death around us in any given moment and having to kill someone in that circumstance is unfair. And being unable to process that trauma (I think it is trauma to kill someone) in the open would be agonizing to me. People already don’t support each other enough.

          17. FYC says:

            Well said, NB.

          18. nunya biz says:

            Thanks FYC. I had a feeling it might jive with your analysis.
            My stuff is usually just intuition based.

          19. FYC says:

            Good intuition! I like the way you expressed your view as well. I think you did a better job than I.

          20. nunya biz says:

            I really appreciate your sentiment FYC : ) thanks for letting me chime in.

          21. FYC says:

            NB, You are always welcome to join in, whether we agree or not, I appreciate your thoughts.

  18. jessrnny says:

    The psychopath. I’d say he is the MMRN of the group. The way he becomes a child reminds me so much of my ex. He was better with my daughter than I was. He was generally isolated and dull… very moody and jealous. Remind me much of Perry minus the physical violence.

  19. Elke says:

    Upper lesser narc- he might be successfull, rich, but he is agressive verbally and phisically, he may appear as a good husband and father and succesfull bussinesman but it is just a facade to the world, the only thing that could make me chane my mind he is greater is that he is aware of his deamons, sometimes he appears ashamed of what he does to Celeste but for sure he is a narc to me

  20. KellyD says:

    SN = Scary Narc

  21. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Oh no! Perry. Oh my. I am sorry. I pack my bags. I quit. I do not know what in the world he is. bye.

    1. Dearest HG: Ok. I am back. I had to think a while about Perry, more than any of the others, thus far. I believe this is a case of 2 people that should never have come together. Like the case: In Cold Blood, that mental practitioners diagnose that the the 2 murderers would not have completed those callous murderers individually, but only together they became depraved murderers. So, I say likewise with the dynamic of Perry and his wife. A bad combination. Perry is narcissistic, but not a narcissist, and he has violent tendencies and anger management issues and masculine insecurity and paranoia that stem from reasons undisclosed (or I missed it), but the resulting angry and insecure behavior reveals itself whenever he tries to maintain control and power and prestige as a male head of household, a position that is sometimes demonized at worst or often undermined in modern society, which perhaps stimulated his latent paranoia, and feelings that he is often being undermined. He wants the respect for that position that he feels he has to maintain at all times, to the point of being violent. But, his wife was thrilled by the violence, so his anger weakness was increased by her intoxication by it. Which increased his intoxication with his behaviour, as well. So, he never had clarity on exactly what was or was not bad behavior because of her often positive response to his bad behaviour. A bad combination of people. I never saw signs of other intimate partners for Perry and promiscuity is supposedly a sign of a Narcissist. Nor, did he walk out on her or give her Silent Treatments. He even called her whenever he was away. I never saw him try to make her jealous. Or neglect her, when other women were around. He also loved his children and tried to hide the violence from them, and he wanted to be a part of their school life, although he felt he was undermined in that arena as well. They both seem to love him very much, including his wife. And without the intervention of the therapist, I doubt that she would have left him, unless he ended up practically killing her, or she him. They were very close together in the pathos of their relationship. And, somehow I believe his constant traveling may have undermined his relationship with his family, but that may not be the case, at all…it may have also helped the relationship survive as long as it did, as well, but I have no proof of either that I can recall.

      1. WokeAF says:

        I think him raping Jane would qualify as at be very least, infidelity

        1. There is the Jane scenario. Thank you. A one night stand does not necessarily define a man as a narcissist. I do not quite remember the circumstances of their coupling…did she meet him at a bar or something when he was out of town? She thought he was nice? Based on that thought, and knowing him for what, an hour or so, she made a wager to herself that he would probably have sex with her in a traditional way, and therefore she went with him to bed, but he treated her like he treated his legally wedded and beloved wife, I guess. So, his style of intimacy that he engaged in with his wife, with violence, did not suit Jane, his one night stand? I think there is a lesson in there somewhere. And that lesson includes Ziggy. And, NOW Jane is slow to quickly become intimate because of the traumatic experience, of that violent one night stand, that also impregnated her. Oh, what a night. A night to remember. A night that he forgot. She was forgettable. Is she an innocent victim? I will say that her behaviour or involvement should not be a role model or standard for women that are dating. Problem prevention is much easier than problem solving. And yes, I am very sorry that happened to her. It was surely a devastating experience.

          1. WokeAF says:

            I can’t .

      2. ALERT: I made a major error of forgetfulness in my assessment: I forgot about Perry’s Mom. I will see how badly this error hurt my case. I am going to let my assessment stand as is, but this type of error that I made is very bad indeed.

  22. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Not really seen enough of him to determine. He had a good job and works away is sexually aggressive. Doesn’t seem to concerned with the facade but you don’t get to see much of him other than playing with the kids and having a ‘quick pump’ on his wife. Physically violent.

    He takes pride in how he looks and must have a certain degree of intelligence but you don’t really know much.

    I’d say elite or somatic and either upper lesser or lower greater. But you don’t see enough to draw any clear conclusion.

    1. Alex: Do you know what his job was? I missed it, if it were presented in the series.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        He’s a very successful businessman, so successful Celeste gives away a lot of his money to charity,

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Thanks HG. Could still be UL or LG. I’d like to have seen some more manipulations going on or perhaps I wasn’t paying sufficient attention.

          Maybe I’ll rewatch S1 before I go in to anaphylactic shock waiting for S2E6!

        2. Dearest HG: Thank you. Also, I forgot about his Mom, HG. Maybe because I did not see them together. I remember now also that his Father died, and the mother had to take care of him and mourn the loss, simultaneously. My memory NOW wants to help me out. I now understand why Perry often would say things like, A father should this and and a Father that, and a Husband should this and that. He seems to be reestabllishing the role of the father, in his nuclear family, that was denied to him with the loss of his own father. He probably loved his Father very much, and was very hurt with the disruption of his family by his death and the way his mother had to take on the difficult work of being both parents. I see that as the reason also that he prefers his own wife not to work. It is not just selfish control of her, but also to protect her from being worn out and overly masculine, like what probably happened to his mom. And he is also spurred to be a good father in like manner. To ensure his sons have the father that he lost way too early for his sensitivity level. I say he is a Narcissist, now, because of the loss of his father the overpowering strength and tenacity and will of his mother, and perhaps a genetic predisposition, that seems also to be growing in one of his sons that bullied the little girl. Now, I believe it is possible that he was as financially successful as he is portrayed, but before he seemed too unstable to be so successful to me. But as a Narcissist, he is able to compartmentalize more than a normal person. But I will leave my old assessment unchanged. To remember this egregious error of forgetfulness that I made, as I type this, when I forgot about his mother and resulting upbringing. Sigh. My bad. Lessons Learned.

          1. Cont. And this is a bit shaky for me to put together as I think about it, but I believe that every time Perry’s Father and Husband authority is challenged, in his mind, (as he tries to fulfill the role of the prototype father and husband that he lost in his own family growing up), his own father is killed over and over again in his own psyche, and is part of what causes his fury. And it is unfortunate that his wife enjoys it a bit. I stand y this part of my original assessment. A bad coupling. Her enjoyment doubly perpetuates his pathos and helps lead to the downfall of the very family he so wanted to preserve and always feared losing control of. It becomes multi-generational narcissism, if his mother is one also. Now it is up to his sons to break the cycle.

  23. Caroline R says:



  24. WokeAF says:

    Perry –
    Voted: lower greater elite narc / sociopath

    -obv narc ; all narc traits
    -has a mostly Stepford wife (greater)
    -is aware someone can seem “sweet” and still be violent (awareness)
    -stops beating her the second the kid walks in (facade plus ability to control self)
    -saves beatings until out of sight normally (facade, control over fury- greater)
    -Last ditch “I’ll change” “inner demons”, Then loses his total shit (which a LGN can do if suddenly thrust into chaos mode)
    -sexual violence (LGN)

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      I’m with you WokeAF. Ater I hit ‘post comment’ I did start to think a little more and yup, LGN. I need to go back to the fuel matrix. I keep meaning to do this!

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